Women's eNews / By Sandra Kobrin
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 214

Beat a Woman? Play On! Beat a Dog? You're Gone

Football superstar Michael Vick is in big trouble for his role in a dog fighting ring. So where’s the outrage when guys beat their wives and girlfriends and stay in the game?
August 23, 2007  |  
 
 
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National Football League superstar Michael Vick is in trouble, serious trouble. Federal prosecutors charged the Atlanta Falcons' quarterback with animal abuse for his role as the alleged leader of a dog-fighting ring and, after denying it for months, Vick pleaded guilty on Monday. He faces stiff sentencing.

He's in big trouble with the NFL too, which has said he might never play professionally again. According to Gene Upshaw, executive director of the NFL's Player Association, "the practice of dog-fighting is offensive and completely unacceptable."

I just wish the NFL had the same outrage toward spousal abuse and other forms of domestic violence. But they don't. Not by a long shot.

Scores of NFL players as well as players from the National Basketball Association and Major League Baseball have been convicted of domestic abuse, yet they play on with no fear of losing their careers. Most pay small fines, if that, and are back on the field immediately.

The message is clear. Beat a woman? Play on. Beat a dog? You're gone.

What could possibly account for this bizarre situation?

Part of it is that it's the dog days of August -- the notoriously silly season for news -- so the Vick story has attracted tremendous press attention. But it's been all over TV as well during the past four months, since Vick's indictment in April.

Animal Lobby Attacks

The anti-animal abuse lobby, meanwhile, is going after Vick with all four paws.

PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which received almost $30 million in contributions last year, according to its Web site, and other animal rights organizations are demanding a boycott of companies that continue to sponsor Vick and are bombarding the NFL with letters demanding a no-tolerance policy when it comes to cruelty to animals by football players.

On blogs, the outrage continues on sackvick.net and other sites, with comments like "lets give #7, 7 to life," or "lets make Michael Vick into dog food."

A cottage industry of anti-Vick merchandise is out there. You can buy a chew toy for your dog in with a likeness of Vick, a "hang Vick" hat or even an eye-for-eye justice T-shirt that says "Stick Vick in the Pit."

Vick has already lost most of his sponsorship deals worth millions of dollars and he deserves to lose a whole lot more.

But the disproportionate punishment of Vick -- while athletes who commit violence against women are let off the hook -- has to be wondered at.

Might it be that domestic violence and spousal abuse is so pervasive in sports that it's simply too costly for leagues to suspend so many men? What would happen after all if those poor dear teams couldn't fill their rosters?

Numbers Are Astounding

The number of athletes arrested for domestic violence or spousal abuse is astounding.

A three-year study published in 1995 by researchers at Northwestern University found that while male student-athletes are 3 percent of the population, they represent 19 percent of sexual assault perpetrators and 35 percent of domestic violence perpetrators.

There are even Web site chronicles that treat the steady stream of offenders as if it were a joke. Check out badjocks.com or playersbehavingbadly.com. Maybe then again, don't. It's enough to make you sick.

Roger Goodell, the new NFL commissioner, has made it his mandate to crack down on athletes who misbehave.

In April Goodell introduced a new conduct policy that stiffens penalties and holds franchises responsible when their players get into trouble.

Just recently Goodell suspended the Tennessee Titans' troubled player Adam "Pacman" Jones for the 2007 season.

Jones had been arrested five times since he was drafted by the NFL in 2005 and has been involved in 11 separate police investigations. Most recently, during what amounted to a brawl at a strip club, he grabbed a stripper and banged her head into the ground. He will not be paid during his suspension and must apply for reinstatement.

Spousal Abuse Gets a Pass

But no one has been suspended in the NFL for spouse abuse or domestic violence, even though they've been arrested and convicted.

The NFL Players Association's Upshaw said in a statement: "We believe the criminal conduct to which Mr. Vick has pled guilty today cannot be condoned under any circumstances."

I say the NFL's indifference to the acts of domestic violence by other players cannot be condoned under any circumstances.

Major League Baseball, meanwhile, isn't any better in punishing spousal abusers.

Last summer Philadelphia Phillies' pitcher Brett Myers assaulted his wife on a public Boston street and was charged with assault and battery. Major League Baseball did not penalize him, shrugging it off as an off-field incident. Are they saying a player needs to abuse his spouse during a game to get sanctioned? If so, just how does that work?

Don't expect anything better from the National Basketball Association.

Jason Kidd of the NBA's New Jersey Nets pleaded guilty to spousal abuse in 2001.

Was he punished by the NBA? No.

The Sacramento Kings' Ron Artest was suspended last season for 72 games for fighting in the stands. In March he was arrested for domestic violence. For that he got what amounted to a hand slap; an immediate two-game suspension and a $600 fine for a player who makes several million a year.

Artest pled no contest to the domestic violence charge and was sentenced 100 hours of community service, a 10-day work project and mandated extensive counseling. The NBA did nothing here too. Maybe if he had committed the transgression on national TV -- as with the fan brawl -- more would have happened.

Maybe if he'd hurt a dog he would have been benched for the season.

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Sandra Kobrin is a Los Angeles based writer and columnist.
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The women at least had a choice.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 23, 2007 1:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If women are attracted to rich sadistic jerks, that's their choice.

The animals don't get to choose.

And NO, I'm not excusing the creeps, just stating a fact.

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» It's about power Posted by: hagwind
» RE: It's about power: google this! Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» So what's in a choice? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: It's about power Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: It's about power Posted by: TassieDevil
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.

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Athletes are well-paid thugs and riff-raff . . .
[Report this comment]
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Aug 23, 2007 3:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
much like losers who work for blackwater. if not in the game they'd be out in the streets. not a lot going on upstairs. lots of loose bulbs, son. boy doesn't seem to be listenin'. his ears are all rapped up, ya see. rap music. ears. boy, ya ain't fallerin' me.

don't have much respect for organized 'sports'. don't have any respect for ANYONE who would physically harm another, be it woman or animal. women need to be taught early on not to sell themselves too cheaply, and, especially, when and how to leave. humans are dangerous. humans are, afterall, animals. to forget that is to put yourself mentally and physically in situations you may regret. people are blind to that one thing by ego and society. never trust yourself to do the right thing all the time and never give up your trust TO anyone.

get out of bad relationships. that is all.





pfft! i need to get out more.

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Let us not talk falsely now.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 23, 2007 3:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a horrible argument for more attention to the issue of wife beating, an issue about which I am sympathetic

Notwithstanding two to five millennia of Judeo-Christo-Muslim teaching to the contrary, for me, a dog is the moral equivalent of a human being in the sense that it is no more of a sin to inflict any given amount of suffering on a human being than on a dog, say one’s wife and one’s faithful companion. I am outraged by wife beaters, but even more so by someone like Vick who would subject his animals to the equivalent (or worse) of a beating several times before their warring competitions, which, of course, are more heinous yet.

So, it is a false argument to imply a fortiori that we should be as angry and as vindictive about wife beaters and wife beating as we are about Vick and horrible things that he did that were a magnitude more egregious.

This is the same specious argument as “Save a whale, be a hero. Save a baby, go to jail” used by abortion prohibitionists to bemoan their arrests on the premises of abortion clinics, to point out that whales get more attention from liberals than humans. In that case, we are comparing the value of the whole whale family (or several species) to the value of individual fetuses. The rules for all of whaledom are different than for individual humans. And the rules for unconscious or inchoately conscious beings are different than for those capable not merely of feeling pain, but also terror, such as an adult human or whale might experience, that transcend the fetal bad dream (or less) experience.

So, yes, trying to save an adult is different than trying to save a fetus. And trying to save an entire race of adults (and their children and fetuses, too) is different than trying to save a percent of individuals.

There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.

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» The hour is getting late. Posted by: LMNOP

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Chew toy
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Aug 23, 2007 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments:

1. The chew toy is funny. Every dog should have one.

2. I guess you would have to compare it with a regular workplace. If someone were guilty of spousal abuse, and they worked at an office job, what would happen to them? I'm not sure I like the idea that the sports leagues have to babysit. They should go by the same rules as any other workplace, and take on neither more nor less of the responsibility for their employees' behavior.

3. If the allegations are true, he didn't just slap a few dogs or give them a black eye. The story involves lots of dead dogs--many of whom died horrible deaths--along with his complicity in all the gruesome, systemic, fatal abuse that occurs in the dogfighting business. So I'm not sure the comparison is accurate or helpful. I think you're better off making a case that the same standards should be applied to spousal abuse regardless of your batting average, and leave the dogs out of it.

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» RE: Chew toy Posted by: vildechaye

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Are we missing something here?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: hagwind on Aug 23, 2007 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apart from the equation of sponsoring dog-fighting with beating a dog,* which as I understand it seriously trivializes the former, this article has a big hole in it. Nowhere does it even mention that Michael Vick is black or speculate that this might, just might, have something to do with the depth of the outrage at this particular case. How black, brown, or anything but white is PETA anyway? Is it possible, just possible, that some people (many but not all of them white) out there see woman abuse as part of the black male character but animal abuse as a violation of the color line? IOW, dogs are under the protection of white people, so Michael Vick was not only cruel to animals, he also usurped a white prerogative. Earl Ofari Hutchinson's column posted a day or so ago fills in some of the gaps. I recommend it.

*Beating a dog is bad, and a pattern of dog-beating is worse than an isolated incident, but dog-fighting is worse: it's systematic cruelty perpetrated for the pleasure and profit of those who should know better.

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» i see what you are missing Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: i see what you are missing Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: Are we missing something here? Posted by: goeswithness
» Bit over the top and racist Posted by: Phenix

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False Dichotomy
[Report this comment]
Posted by: EKSwitaj on Aug 23, 2007 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course it is outrageous that those who perpetrate domestic violence are often penalized minimally if at all. However, articles like this that imply that outrage over animal cruelty is misplaced create a false dichotomy. The truth is that we don't have to choose between between angry about the torture of animals and the mistreatment of women: we can and should feel anger over the abuse of any living creature. We should be outrage when any living being is made to feel unnecessary pain. This is especially true given how often cruelty to animals serves as a prelude to cruelty to humans.

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» the cruelty connection Posted by: JJinIthaca

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Stupid arguments
[Report this comment]
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Aug 23, 2007 5:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both domestic violence and animal abuse are bad. there is nothing "racist" about his punishment. there is no defense for either. NONE. and i HATE peta. but anyone who would treat dogs like that, does not belong in society, white or black or green purple or orange.

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Why we hate Vick's Actions.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 23, 2007 5:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dogs love us unconditionally. Women have a selfish agenda originating in the genes. This is the difference.

I had to put my dog down two months ago. She was my companion since she was a pot bellied pup.

People think of me as a hard, stoic man, but I cried like a baby over her loss. I will never forget my dog.

Vick will never know the love between humankind and dogs. He is missing the world.

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» RE: Why we hate Vick's Actions. Posted by: skybluesky
» RE: Why we hate Vick's Actions. Posted by: goeswithness
» Yes and no Posted by: kepstein7777

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Vivien
[Report this comment]
Posted by: viviensandt on Aug 23, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can Sandra Kobrin possibly think that she can promote one cause (ie protecting women) by putting down and trivialising another very important cause? Sandra, you have just put me off YOUR cause, as it makes me think you and your ilk really know nothing about working towards a kinder, safer society!
If you're so outraged and jealous about the methods and gains of the animal rights movement, why not copy some of their methods, not to mention their dedication, for your cause? Perhaps THAT would achieve something!

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» RE: Vivien Posted by: sss4r

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So what she's saying...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: H_H on Aug 23, 2007 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is that the NFL doesn't particularly care about the well-being of humans. Interesting.

I'm sure PETA will come-in for the same kind of criticism in the near future, yes?

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» RE: So what she's saying... Posted by: MartianBachelor

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The author's ignorance of federal and state laws prohibiting the acts of...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Aug 23, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and providing punishment for violence is astounding.

If she has specific information regarding a victim of violence, as her title implies, I encourage her to file a police report with the authorities, rather than filing an essay full of nonsense.

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Violence is WRONG!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Aug 23, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Violence in any form is anathema and its rendering is an admission of inferior intellectual development. Whether the victim is a woman or animal is irrelevant.....it is WRONG! It isn't a political notion, it is a natural law proscription that binds everyone and it certainly does not require the ramblings about one form of violence being better or worse than another. This article misses the point entirely and is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to render one egregious act superior to another.

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Susan D.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: shd1230 on Aug 23, 2007 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WOMEN AT LEAST HAVE OPTIONS, CAN GET HELP, CAN CALL THE POLICE, CAN FILE CHARGES, CAN FIGHT BACK, CAN DIVORCE. DOGS ARE HELPLESS VICTIMS.

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» RE: Susan D. Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Susan D. Posted by: skybluesky

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SUSAN D
[Report this comment]
Posted by: shd1230 on Aug 23, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHY IS IT THAT ANYTHING INVOLVING AFRICAN AMERICANS IS AUTOMATICALLY CONSTRUED AS RACIST. I BELIEVE THAT THE WHITEST PERSON IN THE COUNTRY WOULD BE OSTRACIZED FOR THE BEHAVIOR THAT VICK AND HIS ASSOCIATES ENGAGED IN. THERE ARE A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN DOG-FIGHTING AND THEY ARE JUST AS REPREHENSIBLE AS VICK AND HIS FRIENDS. BECAUSE VICK IS A BLACK ATHLETE, HE SHOULD BE EXCUSED, THE WAY O.J. SIMPSON WAS EXCUSED FOR MURDERING HIS (WHITE) WIFE??

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» QUIT YELLING AT ME Posted by: KaptainSpiffy

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Hey alternet...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Aug 23, 2007 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Way to repost this article without any of the comments made on it earlier! Especially the critical ones that point out that these dogs were not just beaten but were raised to fight each other, kept in cages, tortured, and eventually killed.

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» RE: Hey alternet... Posted by: sss4r
» Hey Joshua . . . Posted by: hagwind

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the article is speciesist
[Report this comment]
Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 23, 2007 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The lives of humans and animals should be regarded with equal worth. Athletes who abuse their wives or girlfriends are just as sadistic as those athletes who abuse animals.

To argue otherwise, that only humans matter, or humans come first, is kind of like someone during the Apartheid era in South Africa saying, "First let's take care of the infant mortality rate among whites, and *then* we'll get to the blacks." No.

Equal consideration for humans and animal alike.

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» RE: and the point is Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: and the point is Posted by: cinattra

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Child labor laws based on Anti-cruelty to animals laws
[Report this comment]
Posted by: BetteM on Aug 23, 2007 7:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first case brought against child labor abuses and exploitation in the late 1800's based their case on laws ALL READY established for anti-cruelty to animals. Here is one
link

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nfl doesn't really care at all
[Report this comment]
Posted by: somegirl on Aug 23, 2007 7:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
about the dogs, and were more concerned about the gambling.
so i heard on the daily show. jon did a great bit on this on tuesday night i think.

i keep seeing stories popping up on the 'net comparing violence against women to various other violent acts. i don't find it serves any of the arguments. heinous acts are heinous acts, they don't need to be like something else to matter.

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Somehow I think if an NFL player was staging Girl Fights
[Report this comment]
Posted by: BenCaxton12 on Aug 23, 2007 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on the same terms as dog fights, they'd care every bit as much.

But: good headlines are hard to come by. Whatever gets the old journalistic juices flowing, I always say.

(It's not like we're paying for this stuff)

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Of course it all matters but.....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: denwa on Aug 23, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To suggest that we should save our outrage exclusively for crimes against humans is only a weak attempt to minimize the horror of Vick's activities. Of course we should also be outraged by other crimes. But the outrage people feel on behalf of innocent animals is also true and deep and morally justified. What kind of evil lurks inside a so-called human being who delights in holding a dog’s head under water in a five-gallon bucket while it kicks, struggles to survive and drowns? Multiply this by three and you have Mike Vick. What kind of person hangs eight dogs in his backyard then steps back to watch them writhe, gasp for a breath and die? Slow torture.....just for fun...that's our man Vick. Who would ever think to hose a dog down to get it wet so you can electocute it? That's the Vickster. Let's stand together against this monster. Lifetime ban from the NFL. Let your voice be heard. Email NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell at goodellr@nfl.com

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Both are crimes
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Posted by: escr1t0ra on Aug 23, 2007 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think it serves anyone's agenda to argue which is the bigger crime: abusing people or abusing animals. Both are horrible acts that deserve severe punishment and a much greater response from professional sports leagues. If it were up to me, these super rich, super sadistic athletes would get treated the same as any other felon. Until then everyone needs to stand up and give these issues a voice.

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» RE: Both are crimes Posted by: hagwind

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Where?
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Posted by: frederick on Aug 23, 2007 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"where’s the outrage when guys beat their wives and girlfriends [or sexually harass their subordinates] and stay in the game?"

I dunno, ask Bill Clinton!

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» RE: Where? Posted by: AlterGWBego

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this is truly pathetic
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Kaykay on Aug 23, 2007 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is the difference between prolifers and you dog lovers?? Damn the fetus after its a live person and damn a person over a dog? What were you people doing about dog fights before Mike Vick? Why weren't you people jailing all the rednecks that started this crap?

You people founded this country on VIOLENCE but violence is only wrong to you people when its against a white woman, a fetus or a damn dog. Get a grip!!

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TORTURING AND KILLING INNOCENT BEINGS IS INARGUABLY HEINOUS
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Posted by: annestivacti on Aug 23, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time the subject of animal abuse is raised, people storm forward to cite worse atrocities. Do people honestly think that spousal abuse doesn't have a precursor that likely includes abuse of non-humans? Don't abused women have the option of leaving an abusive relationship? Does anyone think that innocent animals are able to escape abuse at the hands of sadistic humans? There is something terribly wrong with Kobrin's line of thinking.

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Don't ask why there's not more outrage--do something!
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Posted by: kevred on Aug 23, 2007 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Animal advocates have leapt to very public and very loud condemnation of Vick's sick crimes. Organized groups have taken organized action and made their protests known to the league and the media. That is good, right, and suitable--what Vick has done is vile and represents a subculture that needs to be utterly wiped from the face of the earth.

So why aren't we seeing the same level of reaction from prominent women and women's groups about male athletes' treatment of women? It's all well and good to sit idly by and whine about how nobody's sticking up for the poor women, as this column does, but why haven't those concerned about the issue done more about it?

If you want outrage, use your own. Getting upset over other people being passionate about other causes is stupid and unhelpful. Animal advocates aren't sitting around, waiting for someone else to be outraged on their behalf--they're doing it themselves. So, if you're concerned about how mistreatment of women has become an accepted and covered-up part of pro sports--

--get up off your butt and do something about it! Contact leagues or teams directly. Contact women's advocacy groups and challenge them to do more. Contact your local congressmembers and challenge them to investigate. Convince your spouses, partners, and friends to stop giving money to teams who've given their athletes a free pass on abuse, get as many people as possible to do that, and then let the team know you're doing it.

Groups like PETA get ridiculed all the time for their tactics, but they know the reality is that going at it with all they've got is the only possible way to make these insulated behemoths listen and change their ways.

That animals, who cannot advocate for themselves, are being better represented than others who can articulate for themselves, is an indictment of only one group--those who would defend women, but aren't doing enough.

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» Great point Posted by: cheressemm

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Beat this? Beat that? Beats me....
[Report this comment]
Posted by: doodahman on Aug 23, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I'm not one to defend beating on ladies, but if you want to compare them with dogs, here's what I observe:
No dog ever left a person cold and penniless
No dog ever kept a person's child away from him
No dog ever lied
No dog ever talked constant shit
No dog every spent all your money on crap

Women are awesome, but dogs are perfect. We all get the point that assaulting any human being is, in most cases, a bad thing. Duh. Why this is a reason to abhor Vick less, is rather unclear as, is why Vick is a reason to abhor women beaters more.

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Over in the UK
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Posted by: Cruella on Aug 23, 2007 8:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have this problem on a massive scale. George Best, a known wife-beater and football player, who died recently has had an airport named after him and bank notes issued with his face on. Yuck.

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» RE: Over in the UK Posted by: skybluesky
» RE: Over in the UK Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Over in the UK Posted by: skybluesky

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gonzomax
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Posted by: gonzomax on Aug 23, 2007 9:00 AM   
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This is half an argument . It ignores the fact that Vick financed an interstate gambling enterprise. There were thousands bet ,involving many unsavory characters. In the viewpoint of sports ,that is a greater transgression to a sport that is pretending not to be involved in gambling. This is the mortal sin.
Organized animal abuse is horrible and says a lot about the participants. They are disgusting.No possible excuse.

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The Sports double standard
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 23, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has been going on since I was a kid. Back then the 'headslap' was still a play. Sports figures have always enjoyed special treatment. They got passed ahead when they had the grade level of a third grader. Given cushy lives in famous schools,allowed to be tremendous primadonnas,demanding everything,even sex, be rendered on command. These folks are used to this kind of special treatment.
The dog thing,chances are there's someone somewhere that's owed big money,or lost big and is laughing about getting even with the guy that screwed him.
People with large incomes have large perversions. They all know how to do things on the down-low. Vick got busted because he pissed someone off.
What this really speaks to isn't just animal cruelty,it's the willingness of the rich and wealthy to flaunt laws,as well as decency and reason to pursue twisted endeavours. Dog fighting is just the tip of the iceberg.

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» RE: The Sports double standard Posted by: Blue Heron

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One Can Lead to the Other
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Posted by: Bab5nutz on Aug 23, 2007 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's probably well-known now, but I will repeat it here anyway.
People who display sadism and cruelty towards other people, usually start out by being cruel to animals. Google 'cruelty connection'.

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It's George's Fault
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 23, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The comments here are all over the board so obviously this is an emotional issue. The only way I can leave a comment without getting a bunch of negative feed back is to somehow blame this dog fighting stuff on George W. As soon as I figure out how this is his fault I'll add to this post.

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» "As soon as I figure out how..." Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: It's George's Fault Posted by: AlterGWBego
» RE: It's George's Fault Posted by: goeswithness

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Why is simple.
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Posted by: paschn on Aug 23, 2007 10:04 AM   
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A declining little neo-Rome filled with morons who worship tatooed, felonious idiots for no more than their ability to chase, throw, catch or hit an inflated piece of animal skin.
Who, ( out of guilt one would assume ), will tag any dog kicking, wife / husband beating idiot a hero if he / she thinks it will curry favour with the other morons that make up this disgusting Evil Empire called the United States.
Who will rally 'round the flag and support a treasonous bunch of lying murderous cowards because,... well, because the thought of the OTHER morons getting mad 'cuz they don't simply terrifies them. I know you all get tired of this statement but until I can come up with another one that pretty much says it all, here goes;
A nation of sheep, led by a cartel of whores, controlled by Israel / big business. Welcome,... to the REAL Evil Empire.

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» RE: Why is simple. Posted by: Blue Heron

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Responsibility, and/or lack there of;
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Posted by: ray burchard on Aug 23, 2007 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the attempt to build a culture of non violence, it becomes necessary to attribute responsibility to the individual’s action as a run up to the said violence. Both in the aggressive nature of man and the women’s culpable responsibility in becoming a willing party to the situation.

This is yet just another attempt at creating a (responsibility exemption) for excluding women’s actions in gaining of largesse benefit from their associations with men.

Every woman is not “Mother Teresa” and all men don’t epitomize abusive cruelty, but this is the premise of what this author would have the world believe.

There no free rides in life, therefore how about in the women’s quest for gender equality they also start taking a novel responsibility, one for their own actions. Isn't there a responsibility to mitigate one's own damage by exercising a reasonable forethought of prudence and consequential oversight, if you bed with a tiger how the hell do you blame the tiger when one day you get bitten?

How come the benefits are always viewed as a joint venture, while any liabilities are that of the man. Or is it just the women's right to act and react on emotion and desire (“I want”) devoid of the logic of consequence.

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What's a dog to to?
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Posted by: reidhaus on Aug 23, 2007 10:09 AM   
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As a woman, I was slightly taken aback by this article.

"Boo hoo"! First of all, the women who are beaten by their famous sportsmen husbands / boyfriends have one thing in common: They don't press charges! Whose fault is that?

Second, I have personally boycotted all professional sports for years now due to the very fact that a large percentage of the sports figures themselves are simply thugs. They get into fights; beat significant others; drive drunk; are involved with drugs; carry weapons; and now kill animals with their bare hands. I have no use for any of them.

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These sports guys are ALL a bunch of thugs-
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 23, 2007 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We pay them millions and glorify them because they are the biggest and the meanest and the toughest.

Then we get mad at them when they beat their wives and kids and dogs.

What do we expect to happen? All violent sports should be illegal.
Time to grow up.

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false analogy
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Posted by: dfong63 on Aug 23, 2007 11:05 AM   
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your premise is wrong, because Vick didn't just "abuse" or "beat" dogs, he killed them --- executed them by drowning and hanging. furthermore over 50 of his former dogs are now going to be euthanized. to say Vick "abused a dog" is to greatly understate his crimes. if you want to argue that abusers of women aren't punished harshly enough, fine. but don't try to sleazily minimize the magnitude of what Vick did to these dogs, to make your point.

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What about women that beat their husbands?
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Aug 23, 2007 11:31 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, I forgot. When they beat their husbands or even kill them, they're still the victims.

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Agree that Sports are Overrated
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Posted by: goeswithness on Aug 23, 2007 11:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wouldn't mind it a bit for what it is, or even that they're paid well, except that in many sports that sense of violence and entitlement does exist. I worked as a security guard at a University dorm - the one the football players live in. They were sweet to me, but they really thought the world revolved around them. and that rules were not meant for them. And the university did everything to reinforce this belief. So did the young women who competed over them. Bright, beautiful young girls who could get any guy they wanted, and what they considered the top of the heap were these football players. Me, I always like the brainy nice guys, and in my experience they treat their women well (and provide more interesting dinner conversation). But anyway, it's a puzzle to me, but yes, that's what they wanted and yes, they got shit on constantly.

A dog has absolutely no choice in how its raised and who its owner is. Women do have that choice, at the outset anyhow. We do need to treat women as intelligent adults who can and should make good decisions about who to get involved with. It's true, as one poster noted, that abusers are very charming, but it's also true that if you're watching, there are giveaways (I've done spouse abuse center work as well). These girls knew what kind of guys they were - they knew they were being cheated on, they knew some of these guys had "consent issues" with other women they'd dated. One problem is that women aren't loyal enough to each other and they made excuses for the guys, dismissing women they'd had trouble with as "bitches." For whatever reason, these young women believed that the drama was worth being associated with the guy in question.

I don't understand why these young women held these football players in such esteem and lined up for the drama, but the fact is that society has given athletes an outsized status, and the women are just part of that society. And the fact that nice, normal people have such loyalties to sports teams that they're not going to quit supporting them, ever, no matter what the team members do, means that nothing is going to change soon.

In addition to the fact that animals have no choice about their lives, there is another thing to consider: domestic violence is done in a passion by people who have no emotional control or any other coping mechanisms for dealing with anger - crime of passion. Deciding to raise dogs for fighting is a clearheaded, nonemotional decision to be cruel to a creature that has no choice on a systematic, ongoing, day to day basis.

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Animal Rights: the Feminist Connection
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Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 23, 2007 12:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feminists for Animal Rights (FAR) compares the way human animals oppress nonhuman animals to the way the patriarchy oppresses women -- rejecting status quo thinking that nonhuman animals are the property of human animals.

In her 1991 book, The Sexual Politics of Meat, Carol J. Adams notes that throughout human history, beginning with the hunter-gatherer tribes, meat has been associated with male violence and masculinity, people with power, the aristocracy, etc.

Meat is associated with male virility, whereas vegetable and nonmeat foods are viewed as women’s food. "Meat is a symbol of patriarchy" writes Adams bluntly. She cites a fictional illustration from Mary McCarthy’s Birds of America. Miss Scott, a vegetarian, is invited to a NATO general’s house for Thanksgiving. Her refusal of turkey angers the general.

According to Adams, "Male belligerence in this area is not limited to fictional military men. Men who batter women have often used the absence of meat as a pretext for violence against women."

Adams compares "The Rape of Animals" to "the Butchering of Women," as well as "Sexual Violence and Meat Eating." She quotes the organizer of a "Bunny Bop" in which rabbits are killed by clubs, feet, stones, etc. as saying, "What would all these rabbit hunters be doing if they weren’t letting off all this steam? I’ll tell you what they'd be doing. They’d be drinking and carousing and beating their wives."

The Feminists for Animal Rights newsletter (Vol. VI, Nos. 1-2, 1991), cites EarthSave as stating that taxpayer subsidies to the livestock industry in California for 1991 totaled $24 million, while the yearly budget for child welfare was only $125,000.

The vegetarian and animal rights movements also tend to have a greater proportion of women than men. Women are more likely to become vegetarian than men. Carol J. Adams notes that meat is associated with masculinity and vegetarianism is often equated with being effeminate.

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Abused by an athlete
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Posted by: megawo on Aug 23, 2007 1:04 PM   
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At least women can call 911.

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» RE: Abused by an athlete Posted by: ray burchard

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The dogs were killed, enslaved, and pimped (gambled upon), if he'd done that to women, he'd be out
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Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Aug 23, 2007 1:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of the league. The correct equivalency would be a brothel with women forced to stay there and endure torture to perform as well as fight each other for the men's pleasure, and 8 killings of those who were disposed of.

There's plenty to be said about the unfairness of the level of punishment of male athletes in pro leagues for abusing women, but as others have pointed out, this opinion piece doesn't get the facts of the dog case right and harms its own arguments as a result.

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Beat a Woman? Play On! Beat a Dog? You're Gone
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Posted by: PJ Jefferson on Aug 23, 2007 1:25 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You lost me right from jump street, with that disingenuous title.

Michael Vick MURDERED dogs. Other athletes push, shove, and sometimes even hit their significant others. So, its not "beat a dog? You're gone", as you suggest. Its drown, shoot, hang, or worst of all slam a dog down on the concrete several times until its dead, and you're gone.

If a player slammed his girlfriend to the pavement until she was dead, he would not be allowed to play in the NFL. If you want to author a diary comparing him to another athlete, compare him to Rae Carruth, a former Carolina Panther who shot and killed his pregnant girlfriend. Guess what - he's not allowed to play football in the NFL, either! See the perils of overstating your case?

Now, having let the author have it for her title, I will concede that her overall point was entirely valid. The NFL should be more strict with respect to domestic violence. There should be suspensions.

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He killed dogs
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Posted by: vertical on Aug 23, 2007 1:58 PM   
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Mr. Vick also killed dogs. If he killed a woman he would end up in jail and without a football career, too.

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cmcclain
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Posted by: cmcclain on Aug 23, 2007 2:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kobrin has completely distorted this issue, making her claim utterly absurd. Plenty of NFL players have beaten their dogs - some have even been convicted for it - and none, I repeat none have been kicked out of the NFL. Michael Vick is not guilty of beating a dog, for God's sake. Read the indictment before you write such garbage. He is guilty of hanging, electrocuting, strangling, drowning, slamming to death many dogs, also of forcing them to fight to the death. If an NFL player had hanged, drowned, electrocuted his wife or girlfriend, I submit to you he would no longer play for the NFL. He would likely get the death penalty. That said, I totally agree that any of these thugs who beat their wives should be kicked out of the NFL, for life. But do not distort/diminish the hideously cruel and lethal depravity Vick perpetrated on these dogs, whose sentience - ability to suffer - is very similar to ours.

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Wow, so many eyewitnesses...
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Posted by: pinkfloydd on Aug 23, 2007 2:49 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You all have to be eyewitnesses right? You all know exactly what went on during these alleged dogfights, and how the poor little dogs were tortured and killed, and blah blah freakin blah. Get a grip. THOUSANDS of helpless animals are killed on a DAILY basis, televised, and packaged with sponsers all for your viewing pleasure as a sport called hunting. That's right, hunting. Perhaps the methods aren't as desultory as dogfighting, but the ends are the same. The animals are dead, killed by a public eager to mount them on their walls. But where's the outcry over the slaughtered deer, duck, fish, or whatever else the good folks heading the NRA want to kill this season? Is it because there aren't as many idiotic peeps willing to let a deer lick their face, or able to carry a fawn in their ridiculous, alligator skinned hand-bag? Funny how everyone chooses which animals are safe to kill and destroy. Perhaps Vick was doing his part to stem the out-of-control stray numbers of dogs lining the street. Since there are sooo many dog lovers, why the hail aren't you out rescuing those hungry, left-for-dead die dogs instead of crucifing Vick for what amounts to an ill-advised sport? The author is 100% correct to point out the discrepancy over the furor of mistreated dogs to that of abused women. We have a country more in love with their fellow canines than their fellow man. No wonder the world at large hates our guts. I'm beginning to as well. Hypocrites, the lot of us.

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» RE: Wow, so many eyewitnesses... Posted by: SekhmetsatRa

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Amazing!
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Posted by: pizzmoe on Aug 23, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't help but wonder if an otherwise intelligent man like Mr. Hutchison or the writer of this blog can walk and chew gum at the same time. They are drawing irrelevant parallels. Are they saying that we shouldn't be outraged at the callous and inhumane torture and murder of defenseless animals? What does that have to do with other crimes? Why can't you judge them all individually? You really don't help your own causes by this type of thought. Oh, and by the way, Mr. Vick pleaded guilty. (True he wasnt going to, but the evidence was too overwhelming. )

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Geez
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Posted by: opeluboy on Aug 23, 2007 4:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a bit amazed at the responses here.

Vick, like a growing number of pro athletes, is a thug, and I really don't care how much his cruel pastime is going to ultimately cost him. Fuck him. There's plenty more guys who can throw a football.

But the writer makes a good point. Had he been beating his wife or girlfriend, no one would be discussing the end of his career. Whether women can or can't get out of abusive relationships has nothing to do with it.

However, the problem may not lie entirely with the league or the owners, but with the fans themselves. They condone thuggish off-field the behavior because they want their team to win. Until people see sports for what it is — just a game — this will never change.

Vick was stupid. He chose to abuse dogs, in a nation of dog lovers. As a cat lover, I have to wonder if there would be the same uproar if he spent his weekends shooting cats.

Hasn't hurt Bill Frist.

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People are masters of themselves
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Posted by: drblack on Aug 23, 2007 7:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You mean Re=legalize drugs.
Drugs are inanimate objects. People can hurt themselves with them but most of the damage done by drugs is because they are illegal.
I watch a whole generation of kids totally addicted to video games,PCs and phones ....smoking a little weed is nothing compared to the damage done by the digital crap kids are obsessed by.
Drugs were legal from Neanderthal times untill about 100 years ago and there were few problems.
It is all about the money.
If you truly want to reduce violence in the USA repeal drug prohibition and you will see the violent crime rate drop 80% in 5 years.
Gangsta rap and modern drug gangs would not exist without drug prohibition and the Police could actually spend time going after real criminals.

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Is Michael Vick a worker?
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Posted by: Phenix on Aug 23, 2007 8:22 PM   
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I do not understand why anyone would be fired from their job for hitting their spouse. I also do not see why anyone would be fired for getting into a fight off company grounds. However, I can easily envision a person losing his job if either assault ended in a felony conviction.

Most of you have the erroneous belief that playing football is a privilege and not a high paying job that leads to early disablity and an early death. Should the United States initiate a policy of immediate termination if their is an accusation of spousal or child abuse? I would hope that your immediate reaction is of course not. Furthermore, if a man is convicted of felony spousal abuse then I would expect him to both lose his job, freedom, and right to play football or sports. The "cases" cited in this article never resulted in a felony charge or even conviction.

Another thing is that Michael Vick is not, I repeat, is not losing his job because of dog fighting. He is losing his job because:
1. Michael Vick lied to his employer during an official company investigation.
2. Michael Vick is implicated as the head of an illegal gambling ring.
3. There is a 3rd reason. I had this conversation earlier today.
4. Michael Vick is implicated in an illegal dog fighting ring.
Michael Vick is in a lot more trouble then just dog fighting. If he turns down this plea bargain he could face 5 years in prison or more. Prosecutors can get really nasty when you do not accept a plea.

Michael Vick and his brother are both terrible people. I went to JMU in Virginia and I know people who attended VT during the Vick brother's reign. They are both ignorant and thugs. I am sure that no one here is shocked by this revelation. However, Michael Vick would not deserve to lose his job if he hit his wife or a dog. He will lose his job because of a felony conviction that includes dog fighting which IMHO is much worse than hitting a human. It is not worse than beating a human to death or beating them unconscious. I suffered the latter. My skull would have split open if my neighbors did not intervene.

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Progressives aren't that progressive at all...
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Posted by: DivaMJB on Aug 23, 2007 9:54 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've come to spots like Alternet and other leftist and progressive sites to escape the MSM and find more balanced and human perspectives. Unfortunately when it comes to certain issues, and I've been coming to this conclusion for a while, but it has been validated by this Vick story..."Progressives & liberals have one colorful deficiency when it comes to alot of their views".
I'm so disappointed in the bulk of the comments to this piece and Mr. Hutchinson's piece.
Vick's coverage is grossly plentiful.
Post-Katrina coverage is grossly lacking.

If you want to take the sports angle, check the NFL's ridiculous labor policies. Check the fact that there is a current Atlanta Falcon on the roster who is facing charges for allegedly killing his girlfriend's puppy with a hammer. Check Leonard Little, especially if you get down with MADD. Check the history of sports in this country.

And the sub-angle, sports gambling, check the NBA ref scandal.

The crux of this particular article, pointing out the amazing chasm between certain outrages is stunning to me.

Crossing-over into the mainstream is dangerous for people of color apparently. Question...is anybody here outraged over the 5+ year R.Kelly drama??


Selective calls for due process, redemption and equality have become increasingly apparent to me. I wonder if where I used to find another bastion of sanity, balance and humanity has become another amplification of the nature of the race argument.

Read Wise & Zirin.

Many of you aren't calling for the 'hanging' of Ms. Boddies son (that's Mike's mama), but I've been to far too many MSM sites that are. Do you know what calling for the 'hanging' of a black man in the south means?!?!?!? I've been distraught and disgusted at the way this situation has been handled. Too much fake moral indignation for me to stomach. I find the general tenor of comments on leftist and progressive sites that have posts/articles about this to be full of the deepest and hardest to abort tenets of American capitalism, American racism and American moral hypocrisy.

None of us are exempt.

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tiredofthis
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Posted by: exasperated on Aug 24, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I consider myself a left-leaning liberal, I have to say that I simply cannot stomach another demonstration of a singularly "liberal" talent: finding the defeat, and going to foolish lengths to do so, in even the simplest of victories. Vick, in the face of overwhelming evidence, has chosen to plead guilty to charges of unspeakable animal cruelty and illegal dog fighting. Credit is due all those who have brought this worthless piece of sh*t to justice and have hopefully ended his meaningless career.

The author of this pathetic, meandering, pointless piffle is guilty of making a wholly inappropriate comparison between domestic violence and animal abuse. Alternet, likely feeling the need to be politically correct to the point of being ludicrous, is guilty for posting this idiotic and insulting editorial. No one celebrating the fact that Vick will likely suffer only a small portion of the punishment he truly should be handed for what he has done HAS EVER or WOULD EVER suggest that those who abuse spouses, girlfriends or ANYONE shouldn't be brought to justice.

Want to know why liberal causes appear so weak and diffuse when compared to the lock-step discipline of the Right? It's because of bullshit arguments such as those in this editorial and the inevitable sectarianism and in-fighting that result. Vick has ADMITTED his guilt! I hope he continues to prove just as stupid as I believe him to be and that he therefore messes up his plea deal. He should go to prison for a minimum of five years. F*ck him, f*ck anybody who abuses animals, and f*ck the NFL for giving obscene amounts of money to thuggish cretins who've come to believe that they are above the universal laws of decency and simple compassion.

Alternet should never have posted Kobrin's article, but as they did, I'm gratified to see that so many have written as much to condemn the author and Alternet as to denounce Vick and all like him. For any who may feel as strongly as I do, the most effective way to send a message to the powers behind the obscenity that professional sports has become in our day is to boycott these sports entirely. Spend time with your families, your PETS, volunteer for a local cause, read a book, shut off the goddamned television and go outside.

There, I feel better.

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» RE: tiredofthis Posted by: pizzmoe
» RE: tiredofthis Posted by: axolotl7
» RE: tiredofthis Posted by: DivaMJB

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reposting
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Posted by: karyse on Aug 24, 2007 10:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am reposting a part of an earlier comment I made to make another point.

Well, there actually IS an "excuse for physical violence", and it's a perfectly legitimate one -- I got married to a man who tried to kill me (that was when I was too inexperienced to recognize the personality type). It only happened the one time, because the following day I got a couple of my "redneck" buddies to come to the house with me. I told the asshole, "these are my friends and they will kill you for 25 dollars so march down to the court house and file for a divorce. THIS WEEK."

He did as he was told because I was deadly serious. I wasn't making empty threats and didn't need any cops to come to the house. Of course, first my buddies would have beat the hell out of him, then if that didn't work I may have been forced to "take care of it myself."

Many feminists (and trust me I AM one), rather than teach each other and their daugthers the value of a violent response to violence, which involves being capable of DOING violence when necessary, teach them to "come to mommy" with their problems -- this usually ends up with something like a "restraining order." Uh-huh, THAT works, hey?

A poster referenced "rednecks" as though they were the perpetrators of these kind of autrocities -- au contraire mon frere, it's EXACTLY a redneck that you need if you want to get the hell out of an abusive relationship (including a relationship you might have with "one of their own.") Case in point -- I've witnessed a friend's uncle tied to a chair in a basement for three days because he was beating his wife (the sister of the captors). She loved him, and HE never did it again.

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both make me sick
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Posted by: kittykill on Aug 24, 2007 12:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work with both abusers and survivors of domestic violence. I have seen so many times that people who abuse do it all across the board. They abuse people, animals, the "system". It doesn't matter. It is about power and control. As far as "women have a choice to leave." Are you kidding me? Finances, mental health, family, religion all play a part as far as women (or men) staying with abusers. It is not as easy as walking out the door. That's why we have restraining and stalking orders.

I see what Vick has done to animals and I am sickened. He should be punished for his crime to the full extent of the law. I agree that the animals need a voice but I also think that we as a community should uprise when we hear of domestic violence. I think that we need to break down the socialization barriers and organize better. Isn't that one of the reasons there is so much social outcry? Yes, we are disgusted but people (like PETA) are good organizers and get the message out there.

If anything good can come out of this, it is that it brings certain issues to the frontline so we can address them.

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Good Valid Points from ALL!
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Posted by: specialEDD on Aug 24, 2007 1:23 PM   
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I read almost ALL OF THE POSTS regarding this horrific revelation regarding Michael Vick. I just want some posters to be VERY CAREFUL before posting. Let us all remember that evil and vile acts come from all people of all races, cultures, creeds, backgrounds, etc. We want to treat each and every one of these heinous crimes (in all of their various forms) as they are and ensure they're prosecuted on a case-by-case basis to the FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW. Comparing, analyzing, arguing about crimes of this magnitude minimizes the [ethical and legal] impact needed to create a solid case against these MONSTERS! Forget Freddy or Jason. The real MONSTERS live in a quiet NICE neighborhood near YOU!

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People who abuse women are often abuse animals too
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Posted by: beatlefanfcb on Aug 24, 2007 5:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Animal abuse and violence against people are directly linked. Animal abuse is considered to be one of the leading indicators of violent criminal behavior.

A study of those receiving services for child abuse from the New Jersey public child protection agency found that animals in the home had also been abused in 88% of the animal-owning families.

A study of battered women in Utah found that 71% reported that their animals had been threatened, harmed, or killed by their abusers.

We know that women often delay leaving abusive men because they fear the abuser will kill or injure their companion animals. I was involved in creating a program in my community to provide emergency shelter for the companion animals of women leaving abusive situations.

Violence against animals desensitizes people to violence in general. This facilitates violence against people.

People who participate in dog fights are are frequently involved in other criminal activity.

I was the Executive Director of an animal shelter that offered a $1,000 reward for information leading to arrest and conviction on dog fighting charges. The first reward we paid out was to a woman who had founded a community watch because she was concerned about drug dealing in her neighborhood. And the person who was caught in the act of organizing a dog fight was one of the neighborhood drug dealers. While he was awaiting trial on the dog fighting charges, he was released on bail. And while he was out on bail he was arrested again for dealing drugs at the local mall.

Those of us who are working on animal abuse issues are often the same people who are involved in working to stop domestic violence precisely because we see the connection.

Sincerely,

Frank Caesar Branchini
Edgewater, MD

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feminist-theist-animalist-ist-ist...
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Posted by: cocozane on Aug 24, 2007 5:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no need to limit one's desire for justice; and knowing that we cannot do it all does not mean we are necessarily hypocrits. Comparisons of evil deeds are useless, b/c they trivialize each violent act by quantifying it. We must support the rights of all powerless victims by acting against
the abusers, even while we notice the disproportionate amount of media coverage given, in this case, to dog-fighting vs. spousal or child abuse. It is part of one's consciousness raising to act on the event at hand while noticing how the system tries to minimize any larger social implications.
Mr. Vick's actions caused suffering and death (in this case to dogs). I, for one, am not going to minimize his behavior b/c of his race, gender, social status, or lack of existing NFL bylaws.

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Drown him!
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Posted by: Doggycuny on Aug 24, 2007 8:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He got caught being a naughty ghetto boy! He is no use to the white man and his sport/beer commercials now. He may as well be hung or drowned like his dogs. There'll always be more ghetto boys for us to watch throwing a ball around. Bring on the next ghetto boy! Let the game commence!

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jvb1235
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Posted by: jvb1235 on Aug 24, 2007 8:52 PM   
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Shame on you, AlterNet! Take one giant step backwards.
For a moment there I thought I was reading the wrong e-newsletter.....

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funnyhow
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Posted by: staleman on Aug 24, 2007 9:27 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
funny how, the Vice President goes to hunt quail, that are put in an enclosed area for that sole purpose...and it's just a joke, because he shot a man. Where was PETA and all the screaming white folk then?(blacks that want to be white fall in the same category.) you people got to realize that white people sleep with dogs. they call them their children. they pay for expensive operations, take them to the spa, even have funerals for them. it's legal to kill deer, as many of the screaming people do, it's legal to hunt "big game" in Africa, kill rhinos, elephants and more. a dog though is not an animal to them...it's a person. hell, I even seen pics where white folks was having relations with dogs. I feel sorry for Vick. yeah it was wrong, yeah there should be some kinda punishment...like community service. next time Vick should shoot some other black men, seems that's o.k. for anybody.

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» RE: funnyhow Posted by: truthspreader

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what is going on with AlterNet?
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Posted by: DEBKAMAINE on Aug 25, 2007 12:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a woman and I am SHOCKED to see this article in AlterNet. I thought that this was a site of peace? How does the abuse of animals effect the outrage over abuse of women? Abuse in any form is an outrage. Did the writer read about the horrors that were done to these dogs? There were MANY dogs and they were TORTURED. They were electrocuted, hung, starved, beaten--to name a few. If they did not perform for Vick, they were tortured. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WOMEN? Should we not be outraged when a company pollutes a river making it dangerous because another autrocity happened elsewhere?

I am a proud proud member of PETA. I do absolutely as much work as I can for a local peace organization and it goes HAND IN HAND with my work for animals.

IN fact, I am rather tired of this arrogant way that humans look at animals. Animals suffer at the hands of humans. We are their biggest offender. We torture them in the production of meat, we have total dominance over them in the household, and we cage and fence anything that we find running loose.

To my left, as I write this is an ad about the abuse that Wendy's does to chickens. Do I ignore this because women get abused?

LET'S STOP ALL ABUSE.

I feel really bad when animals are relegated to the bottom of the heap. I believe that the breath of life was put into living, feeling, thinking beings and it is not my place to decide who lives and who doesn't. I believe in Hindu traditions and the religion. It is not my place to kill.

Back to the point......life is like a domino effect....if one part of it is out of balance, all of it is out of balance. Let us work on a peaceful community...........peace towards all------>towards minorities, towards the downtrodden, towards the ill and poor, towards all breathing spirits, towards majorities.....

I do not believe that women bring on abuse, but abused people do seem to get beaten down and then afraid of leaving. Why don't we just work on compassion for all?

I am still baffled that Alter Net would have this and the other article about Michael Vick in it. It is certainly contrary to my beliefs.

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acp
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Posted by: acp on Aug 25, 2007 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, since it seems we are doing the litmus test thing again, I must be perfect as I have served as a social worker at a a womens' shelter and volunteered at a no kill animal rescue shelter and have two beloved rescue dogs. Yes, domestic violence, violence of all kinds and a distinctively negative attitude towards women pervades most pro sports. Yes, there should be more outrage towards it - a a million other injustices that just don't seem to affect people like the war. Katrina, health insurance casualties. As someone who has professionally worked with survivors of violence, I would not even connect the story of greed driven, sociopathic animal abuse to the experiences of both women and men involved in violent relatonships. They can become empowered. They leave. They heal. Often against huge odd and with no fanfare or widespread support. Survivors do have a choice, and over time use it in his or her own way. Animals do not. The Vick stroy just may have touched a nerve because of the sheer callousness and evil of picking victims with no choice or capacity to even talk back, and for the sakeof greed and power on the part of an individual who had no need for either. Honestly, if people are outraged by the treatment of animals, who are part of the most vulnerable among us, maybe it will spread. At this point, we all should be taking any outrage we can get in this country.

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People can walk away
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Posted by: drblack on Aug 26, 2007 3:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would hope sports teams would get rid of violent and abusive players and that the law would actually give them the same treatment it would give anyone else.
People can walk away from bad situations and ask for help. Animals can't and unlike people of any age animals are true innocents. (children are ignorant not innocent)
As long as people are fool enough to idolize celebrity they will generally get off for their crimes....if you watch or read all those celebrity gosssip things you help support the worship of celebrity.
Any person with a conscience and a sense of justice and dignity would not watch or support the upcomming Chinese Olympics.
China has been going through Beijing executing dogs and jailing and beating people
China will perform any cruel act in order to look good for the Olympics....If you love dogs..people etc....do not support the Olympics in China.

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» RE: People can walk away Posted by: louisa23

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Devil's advocate
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Posted by: cinattra on Aug 27, 2007 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How does this issue affect all the dog-loving-meat-eaters out there since the slaughter of animals for human consumption can be argued to be no different than what #7 did to the pit bulls he owned?

Yeah, we don't eat dogs but other cultures do. We don't eat horses but other cultures do. We do however eat cows, hogs and chickens and their life and death are not at all pleasant things. We hunt for sport stacking the cards against the animals by using high powered scopes and other tricks to make killing them convenient. We encroach on the habitats of our animal friends by building our homes in their homes.

There is a cultural arrogance about America that is hypocrisy filled and leads it to distort some moral and ethical issues and to totally treat other ones less seriously or not treat them at all.

Michael Vick is guilty of breaching the human-animal compact which regards humans as stewards of the earth and animals as our helpers (and occasional meal). He is no more guilty than the rest of us. This is a step back for humanity for sure and once the Vick bashing stops what do we do about it (our relationship with animals) if anything needs to be done at all?

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» RE: Devil's advocate Posted by: truthspreader

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Hayley
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Posted by: truthspreader on Aug 27, 2007 11:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sick and tired of MEN, especially, suddenly talking about athletes - football players - who beat their wives and no attention is given to it...let alone kicking them out of the NFL. That's a whole other story ---- why didn't you want to "complain" about it before?
This is about a sick, heartless, sadistic, cruel man who had FUN beating, torturing, killing, watching dogs destroy each other, electricuting, hanging, shooting and raising dozens of dogs that had done NOTHING but be born, have an instinctive nature to love and be loyal and want to please their master. Dogs are not grown women. I don't even feel sensible sitting here comparing or separating the two acts: wife-beating vs. dog torture.
Dogs are innocent, sweet, loving, loyal, creatures who WOULD give there very lives to please their owner.
I don't care about Vick's race, his gender, his job, his bank account. He's a HUGE embarrassment to the human race; he's a KILLER of humankind's most loyal, heroic, and loving animal friends.
So why doesn't everyone quit bringing up football players who beat their wives? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT AND HOLDS NO SIMILARITIES WHATSOEVER!!!!!! I don't care right now about that subject. The subject at hand is a sadistic loser who thinks he can say he's sorry to his "fans" and to people ---- but has no regret or remorse for the dogs and what they went through and how they suffered at his hands. "Immature", he calls himself?? PLEASE! Immature is not being able to make a committment or carelessly spending money -- not watching innocent creatures suffer and suffer and suffer.
Just stick to what this guy did. Just stick to caring about his victims.

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animals are the true victims
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Posted by: jesse 1 on Aug 31, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no comparison between abused women and abused animals - particularly women of privilege married to wealthy sports stars. And to compare these situations is demeaning to the women involved, as well. It keeps them in the victim role. It takes away their power and self respect. They do have choices. They do have resources. They can get support. Animals are truly vicitms. They are totally dependent of humans for survival. They can't go to a crisis center or call a friend for help. It's a no brainer. Your article sickened me.

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The women at least had a choice.
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 23, 2007 1:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If women are attracted to rich sadistic jerks, that's their choice.

The animals don't get to choose.

And NO, I'm not excusing the creeps, just stating a fact.

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» It's about power Posted by: hagwind
» RE: It's about power: google this! Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» So what's in a choice? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: It's about power Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: It's about power Posted by: TassieDevil
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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.

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Athletes are well-paid thugs and riff-raff . . .
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Aug 23, 2007 3:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
much like losers who work for blackwater. if not in the game they'd be out in the streets. not a lot going on upstairs. lots of loose bulbs, son. boy doesn't seem to be listenin'. his ears are all rapped up, ya see. rap music. ears. boy, ya ain't fallerin' me.

don't have much respect for organized 'sports'. don't have any respect for ANYONE who would physically harm another, be it woman or animal. women need to be taught early on not to sell themselves too cheaply, and, especially, when and how to leave. humans are dangerous. humans are, afterall, animals. to forget that is to put yourself mentally and physically in situations you may regret. people are blind to that one thing by ego and society. never trust yourself to do the right thing all the time and never give up your trust TO anyone.

get out of bad relationships. that is all.





pfft! i need to get out more.

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Let us not talk falsely now.
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Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 23, 2007 3:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a horrible argument for more attention to the issue of wife beating, an issue about which I am sympathetic

Notwithstanding two to five millennia of Judeo-Christo-Muslim teaching to the contrary, for me, a dog is the moral equivalent of a human being in the sense that it is no more of a sin to inflict any given amount of suffering on a human being than on a dog, say one’s wife and one’s faithful companion. I am outraged by wife beaters, but even more so by someone like Vick who would subject his animals to the equivalent (or worse) of a beating several times before their warring competitions, which, of course, are more heinous yet.

So, it is a false argument to imply a fortiori that we should be as angry and as vindictive about wife beaters and wife beating as we are about Vick and horrible things that he did that were a magnitude more egregious.

This is the same specious argument as “Save a whale, be a hero. Save a baby, go to jail” used by abortion prohibitionists to bemoan their arrests on the premises of abortion clinics, to point out that whales get more attention from liberals than humans. In that case, we are comparing the value of the whole whale family (or several species) to the value of individual fetuses. The rules for all of whaledom are different than for individual humans. And the rules for unconscious or inchoately conscious beings are different than for those capable not merely of feeling pain, but also terror, such as an adult human or whale might experience, that transcend the fetal bad dream (or less) experience.

So, yes, trying to save an adult is different than trying to save a fetus. And trying to save an entire race of adults (and their children and fetuses, too) is different than trying to save a percent of individuals.

There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.

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» The hour is getting late. Posted by: LMNOP

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Chew toy
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Aug 23, 2007 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments:

1. The chew toy is funny. Every dog should have one.

2. I guess you would have to compare it with a regular workplace. If someone were guilty of spousal abuse, and they worked at an office job, what would happen to them? I'm not sure I like the idea that the sports leagues have to babysit. They should go by the same rules as any other workplace, and take on neither more nor less of the responsibility for their employees' behavior.

3. If the allegations are true, he didn't just slap a few dogs or give them a black eye. The story involves lots of dead dogs--many of whom died horrible deaths--along with his complicity in all the gruesome, systemic, fatal abuse that occurs in the dogfighting business. So I'm not sure the comparison is accurate or helpful. I think you're better off making a case that the same standards should be applied to spousal abuse regardless of your batting average, and leave the dogs out of it.

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» RE: Chew toy Posted by: vildechaye

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Are we missing something here?
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Posted by: hagwind on Aug 23, 2007 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apart from the equation of sponsoring dog-fighting with beating a dog,* which as I understand it seriously trivializes the former, this article has a big hole in it. Nowhere does it even mention that Michael Vick is black or speculate that this might, just might, have something to do with the depth of the outrage at this particular case. How black, brown, or anything but white is PETA anyway? Is it possible, just possible, that some people (many but not all of them white) out there see woman abuse as part of the black male character but animal abuse as a violation of the color line? IOW, dogs are under the protection of white people, so Michael Vick was not only cruel to animals, he also usurped a white prerogative. Earl Ofari Hutchinson's column posted a day or so ago fills in some of the gaps. I recommend it.

*Beating a dog is bad, and a pattern of dog-beating is worse than an isolated incident, but dog-fighting is worse: it's systematic cruelty perpetrated for the pleasure and profit of those who should know better.

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» i see what you are missing Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: i see what you are missing Posted by: sterlingdave54
» RE: Are we missing something here? Posted by: goeswithness
» Bit over the top and racist Posted by: Phenix

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False Dichotomy
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Posted by: EKSwitaj on Aug 23, 2007 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course it is outrageous that those who perpetrate domestic violence are often penalized minimally if at all. However, articles like this that imply that outrage over animal cruelty is misplaced create a false dichotomy. The truth is that we don't have to choose between between angry about the torture of animals and the mistreatment of women: we can and should feel anger over the abuse of any living creature. We should be outrage when any living being is made to feel unnecessary pain. This is especially true given how often cruelty to animals serves as a prelude to cruelty to humans.

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» the cruelty connection Posted by: JJinIthaca

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Stupid arguments
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Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Aug 23, 2007 5:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both domestic violence and animal abuse are bad. there is nothing "racist" about his punishment. there is no defense for either. NONE. and i HATE peta. but anyone who would treat dogs like that, does not belong in society, white or black or green purple or orange.

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Why we hate Vick's Actions.
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 23, 2007 5:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dogs love us unconditionally. Women have a selfish agenda originating in the genes. This is the difference.

I had to put my dog down two months ago. She was my companion since she was a pot bellied pup.

People think of me as a hard, stoic man, but I cried like a baby over her loss. I will never forget my dog.

Vick will never know the love between humankind and dogs. He is missing the world.

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» RE: Why we hate Vick's Actions. Posted by: skybluesky
» RE: Why we hate Vick's Actions. Posted by: goeswithness
» Yes and no Posted by: kepstein7777

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Vivien
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Posted by: viviensandt on Aug 23, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can Sandra Kobrin possibly think that she can promote one cause (ie protecting women) by putting down and trivialising another very important cause? Sandra, you have just put me off YOUR cause, as it makes me think you and your ilk really know nothing about working towards a kinder, safer society!
If you're so outraged and jealous about the methods and gains of the animal rights movement, why not copy some of their methods, not to mention their dedication, for your cause? Perhaps THAT would achieve something!

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» RE: Vivien Posted by: sss4r

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So what she's saying...
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Posted by: H_H on Aug 23, 2007 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is that the NFL doesn't particularly care about the well-being of humans. Interesting.

I'm sure PETA will come-in for the same kind of criticism in the near future, yes?

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» RE: So what she's saying... Posted by: MartianBachelor

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The author's ignorance of federal and state laws prohibiting the acts of...
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Aug 23, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and providing punishment for violence is astounding.

If she has specific information regarding a victim of violence, as her title implies, I encourage her to file a police report with the authorities, rather than filing an essay full of nonsense.

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Violence is WRONG!
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Aug 23, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Violence in any form is anathema and its rendering is an admission of inferior intellectual development. Whether the victim is a woman or animal is irrelevant.....it is WRONG! It isn't a political notion, it is a natural law proscription that binds everyone and it certainly does not require the ramblings about one form of violence being better or worse than another. This article misses the point entirely and is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to render one egregious act superior to another.

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Susan D.
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Posted by: shd1230 on Aug 23, 2007 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WOMEN AT LEAST HAVE OPTIONS, CAN GET HELP, CAN CALL THE POLICE, CAN FILE CHARGES, CAN FIGHT BACK, CAN DIVORCE. DOGS ARE HELPLESS VICTIMS.

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» RE: Susan D. Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Susan D. Posted by: skybluesky

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SUSAN D
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Posted by: shd1230 on Aug 23, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHY IS IT THAT ANYTHING INVOLVING AFRICAN AMERICANS IS AUTOMATICALLY CONSTRUED AS RACIST. I BELIEVE THAT THE WHITEST PERSON IN THE COUNTRY WOULD BE OSTRACIZED FOR THE BEHAVIOR THAT VICK AND HIS ASSOCIATES ENGAGED IN. THERE ARE A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN DOG-FIGHTING AND THEY ARE JUST AS REPREHENSIBLE AS VICK AND HIS FRIENDS. BECAUSE VICK IS A BLACK ATHLETE, HE SHOULD BE EXCUSED, THE WAY O.J. SIMPSON WAS EXCUSED FOR MURDERING HIS (WHITE) WIFE??

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» QUIT YELLING AT ME Posted by: KaptainSpiffy

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Hey alternet...
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Aug 23, 2007 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Way to repost this article without any of the comments made on it earlier! Especially the critical ones that point out that these dogs were not just beaten but were raised to fight each other, kept in cages, tortured, and eventually killed.

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» RE: Hey alternet... Posted by: sss4r
» Hey Joshua . . . Posted by: hagwind

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the article is speciesist
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Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 23, 2007 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The lives of humans and animals should be regarded with equal worth. Athletes who abuse their wives or girlfriends are just as sadistic as those athletes who abuse animals.

To argue otherwise, that only humans matter, or humans come first, is kind of like someone during the Apartheid era in South Africa saying, "First let's take care of the infant mortality rate among whites, and *then* we'll get to the blacks." No.

Equal consideration for humans and animal alike.

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» RE: and the point is Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: and the point is Posted by: cinattra

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Child labor laws based on Anti-cruelty to animals laws
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Posted by: BetteM on Aug 23, 2007 7:02 AM   
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The first case brought against child labor abuses and exploitation in the late 1800's based their case on laws ALL READY established for anti-cruelty to animals. Here is one
link

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nfl doesn't really care at all
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Posted by: somegirl on Aug 23, 2007 7:15 AM   
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about the dogs, and were more concerned about the gambling.
so i heard on the daily show. jon did a great bit on this on tuesday night i think.

i keep seeing stories popping up on the 'net comparing violence against women to various other violent acts. i don't find it serves any of the arguments. heinous acts are heinous acts, they don't need to be like something else to matter.

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Somehow I think if an NFL player was staging Girl Fights
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Posted by: BenCaxton12 on Aug 23, 2007 7:23 AM   
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on the same terms as dog fights, they'd care every bit as much.

But: good headlines are hard to come by. Whatever gets the old journalistic juices flowing, I always say.

(It's not like we're paying for this stuff)

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Of course it all matters but.....
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Posted by: denwa on Aug 23, 2007 7:31 AM   
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To suggest that we should save our outrage exclusively for crimes against humans is only a weak attempt to minimize the horror of Vick's activities. Of course we should also be outraged by other crimes. But the outrage people feel on behalf of innocent animals is also true and deep and morally justified. What kind of evil lurks inside a so-called human being who delights in holding a dog’s head under water in a five-gallon bucket while it kicks, struggles to survive and drowns? Multiply this by three and you have Mike Vick. What kind of person hangs eight dogs in his backyard then steps back to watch them writhe, gasp for a breath and die? Slow torture.....just for fun...that's our man Vick. Who would ever think to hose a dog down to get it wet so you can electocute it? That's the Vickster. Let's stand together against this monster. Lifetime ban from the NFL. Let your voice be heard. Email NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell at goodellr@nfl.com

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Both are crimes
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Posted by: escr1t0ra on Aug 23, 2007 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think it serves anyone's agenda to argue which is the bigger crime: abusing people or abusing animals. Both are horrible acts that deserve severe punishment and a much greater response from professional sports leagues. If it were up to me, these super rich, super sadistic athletes would get treated the same as any other felon. Until then everyone needs to stand up and give these issues a voice.

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» RE: Both are crimes Posted by: hagwind

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Where?
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Posted by: frederick on Aug 23, 2007 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"where’s the outrage when guys beat their wives and girlfriends [or sexually harass their subordinates] and stay in the game?"

I dunno, ask Bill Clinton!

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» RE: Where? Posted by: AlterGWBego

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this is truly pathetic
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Posted by: Kaykay on Aug 23, 2007 7:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is the difference between prolifers and you dog lovers?? Damn the fetus after its a live person and damn a person over a dog? What were you people doing about dog fights before Mike Vick? Why weren't you people jailing all the rednecks that started this crap?

You people founded this country on VIOLENCE but violence is only wrong to you people when its against a white woman, a fetus or a damn dog. Get a grip!!

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TORTURING AND KILLING INNOCENT BEINGS IS INARGUABLY HEINOUS
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Posted by: annestivacti on Aug 23, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time the subject of animal abuse is raised, people storm forward to cite worse atrocities. Do people honestly think that spousal abuse doesn't have a precursor that likely includes abuse of non-humans? Don't abused women have the option of leaving an abusive relationship? Does anyone think that innocent animals are able to escape abuse at the hands of sadistic humans? There is something terribly wrong with Kobrin's line of thinking.

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Don't ask why there's not more outrage--do something!
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Posted by: kevred on Aug 23, 2007 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Animal advocates have leapt to very public and very loud condemnation of Vick's sick crimes. Organized groups have taken organized action and made their protests known to the league and the media. That is good, right, and suitable--what Vick has done is vile and represents a subculture that needs to be utterly wiped from the face of the earth.

So why aren't we seeing the same level of reaction from prominent women and women's groups about male athletes' treatment of women? It's all well and good to sit idly by and whine about how nobody's sticking up for the poor women, as this column does, but why haven't those concerned about the issue done more about it?

If you want outrage, use your own. Getting upset over other people being passionate about other causes is stupid and unhelpful. Animal advocates aren't sitting around, waiting for someone else to be outraged on their behalf--they're doing it themselves. So, if you're concerned about how mistreatment of women has become an accepted and covered-up part of pro sports--

--get up off your butt and do something about it! Contact leagues or teams directly. Contact women's advocacy groups and challenge them to do more. Contact your local congressmembers and challenge them to investigate. Convince your spouses, partners, and friends to stop giving money to teams who've given their athletes a free pass on abuse, get as many people as possible to do that, and then let the team know you're doing it.

Groups like PETA get ridiculed all the time for their tactics, but they know the reality is that going at it with all they've got is the only possible way to make these insulated behemoths listen and change their ways.

That animals, who cannot advocate for themselves, are being better represented than others who can articulate for themselves, is an indictment of only one group--those who would defend women, but aren't doing enough.

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» Great point Posted by: cheressemm

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Beat this? Beat that? Beats me....
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Posted by: doodahman on Aug 23, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I'm not one to defend beating on ladies, but if you want to compare them with dogs, here's what I observe:
No dog ever left a person cold and penniless
No dog ever kept a person's child away from him
No dog ever lied
No dog ever talked constant shit
No dog every spent all your money on crap

Women are awesome, but dogs are perfect. We all get the point that assaulting any human being is, in most cases, a bad thing. Duh. Why this is a reason to abhor Vick less, is rather unclear as, is why Vick is a reason to abhor women beaters more.

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Over in the UK
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Posted by: Cruella on Aug 23, 2007 8:51 AM   
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We have this problem on a massive scale. George Best, a known wife-beater and football player, who died recently has had an airport named after him and bank notes issued with his face on. Yuck.

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» RE: Over in the UK Posted by: skybluesky
» RE: Over in the UK Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Over in the UK Posted by: skybluesky

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gonzomax
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Posted by: gonzomax on Aug 23, 2007 9:00 AM   
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This is half an argument . It ignores the fact that Vick financed an interstate gambling enterprise. There were thousands bet ,involving many unsavory characters. In the viewpoint of sports ,that is a greater transgression to a sport that is pretending not to be involved in gambling. This is the mortal sin.
Organized animal abuse is horrible and says a lot about the participants. They are disgusting.No possible excuse.

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The Sports double standard
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 23, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has been going on since I was a kid. Back then the 'headslap' was still a play. Sports figures have always enjoyed special treatment. They got passed ahead when they had the grade level of a third grader. Given cushy lives in famous schools,allowed to be tremendous primadonnas,demanding everything,even sex, be rendered on command. These folks are used to this kind of special treatment.
The dog thing,chances are there's someone somewhere that's owed big money,or lost big and is laughing about getting even with the guy that screwed him.
People with large incomes have large perversions. They all know how to do things on the down-low. Vick got busted because he pissed someone off.
What this really speaks to isn't just animal cruelty,it's the willingness of the rich and wealthy to flaunt laws,as well as decency and reason to pursue twisted endeavours. Dog fighting is just the tip of the iceberg.

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» RE: The Sports double standard Posted by: Blue Heron

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One Can Lead to the Other
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Posted by: Bab5nutz on Aug 23, 2007 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's probably well-known now, but I will repeat it here anyway.
People who display sadism and cruelty towards other people, usually start out by being cruel to animals. Google 'cruelty connection'.

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It's George's Fault
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 23, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The comments here are all over the board so obviously this is an emotional issue. The only way I can leave a comment without getting a bunch of negative feed back is to somehow blame this dog fighting stuff on George W. As soon as I figure out how this is his fault I'll add to this post.

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» "As soon as I figure out how..." Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: It's George's Fault Posted by: AlterGWBego
» RE: It's George's Fault Posted by: goeswithness

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Why is simple.
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Posted by: paschn on Aug 23, 2007 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A declining little neo-Rome filled with morons who worship tatooed, felonious idiots for no more than their ability to chase, throw, catch or hit an inflated piece of animal skin.
Who, ( out of guilt one would assume ), will tag any dog kicking, wife / husband beating idiot a hero if he / she thinks it will curry favour with the other morons that make up this disgusting Evil Empire called the United States.
Who will rally 'round the flag and support a treasonous bunch of lying murderous cowards because,... well, because the thought of the OTHER morons getting mad 'cuz they don't simply terrifies them. I know you all get tired of this statement but until I can come up with another one that pretty much says it all, here goes;
A nation of sheep, led by a cartel of whores, controlled by Israel / big business. Welcome,... to the REAL Evil Empire.

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» RE: Why is simple. Posted by: Blue Heron

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Responsibility, and/or lack there of;
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Posted by: ray burchard on Aug 23, 2007 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the attempt to build a culture of non violence, it becomes necessary to attribute responsibility to the individual’s action as a run up to the said violence. Both in the aggressive nature of man and the women’s culpable responsibility in becoming a willing party to the situation.

This is yet just another attempt at creating a (responsibility exemption) for excluding women’s actions in gaining of largesse benefit from their associations with men.

Every woman is not “Mother Teresa” and all men don’t epitomize abusive cruelty, but this is the premise of what this author would have the world believe.

There no free rides in life, therefore how about in the women’s quest for gender equality they also start taking a novel responsibility, one for their own actions. Isn't there a responsibility to mitigate one's own damage by exercising a reasonable forethought of prudence and consequential oversight, if you bed with a tiger how the hell do you blame the tiger when one day you get bitten?

How come the benefits are always viewed as a joint venture, while any liabilities are that of the man. Or is it just the women's right to act and react on emotion and desire (“I want”) devoid of the logic of consequence.

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What's a dog to to?
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Posted by: reidhaus on Aug 23, 2007 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a woman, I was slightly taken aback by this article.

"Boo hoo"! First of all, the women who are beaten by their famous sportsmen husbands / boyfriends have one thing in common: They don't press charges! Whose fault is that?

Second, I have personally boycotted all professional sports for years now due to the very fact that a large percentage of the sports figures themselves are simply thugs. They get into fights; beat significant others; drive drunk; are involved with drugs; carry weapons; and now kill animals with their bare hands. I have no use for any of them.

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These sports guys are ALL a bunch of thugs-
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 23, 2007 11:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We pay them millions and glorify them because they are the biggest and the meanest and the toughest.

Then we get mad at them when they beat their wives and kids and dogs.

What do we expect to happen? All violent sports should be illegal.
Time to grow up.

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false analogy
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Posted by: dfong63 on Aug 23, 2007 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
your premise is wrong, because Vick didn't just "abuse" or "beat" dogs, he killed them --- executed them by drowning and hanging. furthermore over 50 of his former dogs are now going to be euthanized. to say Vick "abused a dog" is to greatly understate his crimes. if you want to argue that abusers of women aren't punished harshly enough, fine. but don't try to sleazily minimize the magnitude of what Vick did to these dogs, to make your point.

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What about women that beat their husbands?
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Aug 23, 2007 11:31 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, I forgot. When they beat their husbands or even kill them, they're still the victims.

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Agree that Sports are Overrated
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Posted by: goeswithness on Aug 23, 2007 11:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wouldn't mind it a bit for what it is, or even that they're paid well, except that in many sports that sense of violence and entitlement does exist. I worked as a security guard at a University dorm - the one the football players live in. They were sweet to me, but they really thought the world revolved around them. and that rules were not meant for them. And the university did everything to reinforce this belief. So did the young women who competed over them. Bright, beautiful young girls who could get any guy they wanted, and what they considered the top of the heap were these football players. Me, I always like the brainy nice guys, and in my experience they treat their women well (and provide more interesting dinner conversation). But anyway, it's a puzzle to me, but yes, that's what they wanted and yes, they got shit on constantly.

A dog has absolutely no choice in how its raised and who its owner is. Women do have that choice, at the outset anyhow. We do need to treat women as intelligent adults who can and should make good decisions about who to get involved with. It's true, as one poster noted, that abusers are very charming, but it's also true that if you're watching, there are giveaways (I've done spouse abuse center work as well). These girls knew what kind of guys they were - they knew they were being cheated on, they knew some of these guys had "consent issues" with other women they'd dated. One problem is that women aren't loyal enough to each other and they made excuses for the guys, dismissing women they'd had trouble with as "bitches." For whatever reason, these young women believed that the drama was worth being associated with the guy in question.

I don't understand why these young women held these football players in such esteem and lined up for the drama, but the fact is that society has given athletes an outsized status, and the women are just part of that society. And the fact that nice, normal people have such loyalties to sports teams that they're not going to quit supporting them, ever, no matter what the team members do, means that nothing is going to change soon.

In addition to the fact that animals have no choice about their lives, there is another thing to consider: domestic violence is done in a passion by people who have no emotional control or any other coping mechanisms for dealing with anger - crime of passion. Deciding to raise dogs for fighting is a clearheaded, nonemotional decision to be cruel to a creature that has no choice on a systematic, ongoing, day to day basis.

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Animal Rights: the Feminist Connection
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Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 23, 2007 12:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feminists for Animal Rights (FAR) compares the way human animals oppress nonhuman animals to the way the patriarchy oppresses women -- rejecting status quo thinking that nonhuman animals are the property of human animals.

In her 1991 book, The Sexual Politics of Meat, Carol J. Adams notes that throughout human history, beginning with the hunter-gatherer tribes, meat has been associated with male violence and masculinity, people with power, the aristocracy, etc.

Meat is associated with male virility, whereas vegetable and nonmeat foods are viewed as women’s food. "Meat is a symbol of patriarchy" writes Adams bluntly. She cites a fictional illustration from Mary McCarthy’s Birds of America. Miss Scott, a vegetarian, is invited to a NATO general’s house for Thanksgiving. Her refusal of turkey angers the general.

According to Adams, "Male belligerence in this area is not limited to fictional military men. Men who batter women have often used the absence of meat as a pretext for violence against women."

Adams compares "The Rape of Animals" to "the Butchering of Women," as well as "Sexual Violence and Meat Eating." She quotes the organizer of a "Bunny Bop" in which rabbits are killed by clubs, feet, stones, etc. as saying, "What would all these rabbit hunters be doing if they weren’t letting off all this steam? I’ll tell you what they'd be doing. They’d be drinking and carousing and beating their wives."

The Feminists for Animal Rights newsletter (Vol. VI, Nos. 1-2, 1991), cites EarthSave as stating that taxpayer subsidies to the livestock industry in California for 1991 totaled $24 million, while the yearly budget for child welfare was only $125,000.

The vegetarian and animal rights movements also tend to have a greater proportion of women than men. Women are more likely to become vegetarian than men. Carol J. Adams notes that meat is associated with masculinity and vegetarianism is often equated with being effeminate.

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Abused by an athlete
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Posted by: megawo on Aug 23, 2007 1:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least women can call 911.

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» RE: Abused by an athlete Posted by: ray burchard

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The dogs were killed, enslaved, and pimped (gambled upon), if he'd done that to women, he'd be out
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Posted by: doinaheckuvajob on Aug 23, 2007 1:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of the league. The correct equivalency would be a brothel with women forced to stay there and endure torture to perform as well as fight each other for the men's pleasure, and 8 killings of those who were disposed of.

There's plenty to be said about the unfairness of the level of punishment of male athletes in pro leagues for abusing women, but as others have pointed out, this opinion piece doesn't get the facts of the dog case right and harms its own arguments as a result.

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Beat a Woman? Play On! Beat a Dog? You're Gone
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Posted by: PJ Jefferson on Aug 23, 2007 1:25 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You lost me right from jump street, with that disingenuous title.

Michael Vick MURDERED dogs. Other athletes push, shove, and sometimes even hit their significant others. So, its not "beat a dog? You're gone", as you suggest. Its drown, shoot, hang, or worst of all slam a dog down on the concrete several times until its dead, and you're gone.

If a player slammed his girlfriend to the pavement until she was dead, he would not be allowed to play in the NFL. If you want to author a diary comparing him to another athlete, compare him to Rae Carruth, a former Carolina Panther who shot and killed his pregnant girlfriend. Guess what - he's not allowed to play football in the NFL, either! See the perils of overstating your case?

Now, having let the author have it for her title, I will concede that her overall point was entirely valid. The NFL should be more strict with respect to domestic violence. There should be suspensions.

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He killed dogs
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Posted by: vertical on Aug 23, 2007 1:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Vick also killed dogs. If he killed a woman he would end up in jail and without a football career, too.

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cmcclain
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Posted by: cmcclain on Aug 23, 2007 2:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kobrin has completely distorted this issue, making her claim utterly absurd. Plenty of NFL players have beaten their dogs - some have even been convicted for it - and none, I repeat none have been kicked out of the NFL. Michael Vick is not guilty of beating a dog, for God's sake. Read the indictment before you write such garbage. He is guilty of hanging, electrocuting, strangling, drowning, slamming to death many dogs, also of forcing them to fight to the death. If an NFL player had hanged, drowned, electrocuted his wife or girlfriend, I submit to you he would no longer play for the NFL. He would likely get the death penalty. That said, I totally agree that any of these thugs who beat their wives should be kicked out of the NFL, for life. But do not distort/diminish the hideously cruel and lethal depravity Vick perpetrated on these dogs, whose sentience - ability to suffer - is very similar to ours.

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Wow, so many eyewitnesses...
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Posted by: pinkfloydd on Aug 23, 2007 2:49 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You all have to be eyewitnesses right? You all know exactly what went on during these alleged dogfights, and how the poor little dogs were tortured and killed, and blah blah freakin blah. Get a grip. THOUSANDS of helpless animals are killed on a DAILY basis, televised, and packaged with sponsers all for your viewing pleasure as a sport called hunting. That's right, hunting. Perhaps the methods aren't as desultory as dogfighting, but the ends are the same. The animals are dead, killed by a public eager to mount them on their walls. But where's the outcry over the slaughtered deer, duck, fish, or whatever else the good folks heading the NRA want to kill this season? Is it because there aren't as many idiotic peeps willing to let a deer lick their face, or able to carry a fawn in their ridiculous, alligator skinned hand-bag? Funny how everyone chooses which animals are safe to kill and destroy. Perhaps Vick was doing his part to stem the out-of-control stray numbers of dogs lining the street. Since there are sooo many dog lovers, why the hail aren't you out rescuing those hungry, left-for-dead die dogs instead of crucifing Vick for what amounts to an ill-advised sport? The author is 100% correct to point out the discrepancy over the furor of mistreated dogs to that of abused women. We have a country more in love with their fellow canines than their fellow man. No wonder the world at large hates our guts. I'm beginning to as well. Hypocrites, the lot of us.

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» RE: Wow, so many eyewitnesses... Posted by: SekhmetsatRa

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Amazing!
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Posted by: pizzmoe on Aug 23, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't help but wonder if an otherwise intelligent man like Mr. Hutchison or the writer of this blog can walk and chew gum at the same time. They are drawing irrelevant parallels. Are they saying that we shouldn't be outraged at the callous and inhumane torture and murder of defenseless animals? What does that have to do with other crimes? Why can't you judge them all individually? You really don't help your own causes by this type of thought. Oh, and by the way, Mr. Vick pleaded guilty. (True he wasnt going to, but the evidence was too overwhelming. )

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Geez
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Posted by: opeluboy on Aug 23, 2007 4:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a bit amazed at the responses here.

Vick, like a growing number of pro athletes, is a thug, and I really don't care how much his cruel pastime is going to ultimately cost him. Fuck him. There's plenty more guys who can throw a football.

But the writer makes a good point. Had he been beating his wife or girlfriend, no one would be discussing the end of his career. Whether women can or can't get out of abusive relationships has nothing to do with it.

However, the problem may not lie entirely with the league or the owners, but with the fans themselves. They condone thuggish off-field the behavior because they want their team to win. Until people see sports for what it is — just a game — this will never change.

Vick was stupid. He chose to abuse dogs, in a nation of dog lovers. As a cat lover, I have to wonder if there would be the same uproar if he spent his weekends shooting cats.

Hasn't hurt Bill Frist.

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People are masters of themselves
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Posted by: drblack on Aug 23, 2007 7:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You mean Re=legalize drugs.
Drugs are inanimate objects. People can hurt themselves with them but most of the damage done by drugs is because they are illegal.
I watch a whole generation of kids totally addicted to video games,PCs and phones ....smoking a little weed is nothing compared to the damage done by the digital crap kids are obsessed by.
Drugs were legal from Neanderthal times untill about 100 years ago and there were few problems.
It is all about the money.
If you truly want to reduce violence in the USA repeal drug prohibition and you will see the violent crime rate drop 80% in 5 years.
Gangsta rap and modern drug gangs would not exist without drug prohibition and the Police could actually spend time going after real criminals.

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Is Michael Vick a worker?
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Posted by: Phenix on Aug 23, 2007 8:22 PM   
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I do not understand why anyone would be fired from their job for hitting their spouse. I also do not see why anyone would be fired for getting into a fight off company grounds. However, I can easily envision a person losing his job if either assault ended in a felony conviction.

Most of you have the erroneous belief that playing football is a privilege and not a high paying job that leads to early disablity and an early death. Should the United States initiate a policy of immediate termination if their is an accusation of spousal or child abuse? I would hope that your immediate reaction is of course not. Furthermore, if a man is convicted of felony spousal abuse then I would expect him to both lose his job, freedom, and right to play football or sports. The "cases" cited in this article never resulted in a felony charge or even conviction.

Another thing is that Michael Vick is not, I repeat, is not losing his job because of dog fighting. He is losing his job because:
1. Michael Vick lied to his employer during an official company investigation.
2. Michael Vick is implicated as the head of an illegal gambling ring.
3. There is a 3rd reason. I had this conversation earlier today.
4. Michael Vick is implicated in an illegal dog fighting ring.
Michael Vick is in a lot more trouble then just dog fighting. If he turns down this plea bargain he could face 5 years in prison or more. Prosecutors can get really nasty when you do not accept a plea.

Michael Vick and his brother are both terrible people. I went to JMU in Virginia and I know people who attended VT during the Vick brother's reign. They are both ignorant and thugs. I am sure that no one here is shocked by this revelation. However, Michael Vick would not deserve to lose his job if he hit his wife or a dog. He will lose his job because of a felony conviction that includes dog fighting which IMHO is much worse than hitting a human. It is not worse than beating a human to death or beating them unconscious. I suffered the latter. My skull would have split open if my neighbors did not intervene.

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Progressives aren't that progressive at all...
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Posted by: DivaMJB on Aug 23, 2007 9:54 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've come to spots like Alternet and other leftist and progressive sites to escape the MSM and find more balanced and human perspectives. Unfortunately when it comes to certain issues, and I've been coming to this conclusion for a while, but it has been validated by this Vick story..."Progressives & liberals have one colorful deficiency when it comes to alot of their views".
I'm so disappointed in the bulk of the comments to this piece and Mr. Hutchinson's piece.
Vick's coverage is grossly plentiful.
Post-Katrina coverage is grossly lacking.

If you want to take the sports angle, check the NFL's ridiculous labor policies. Check the fact that there is a current Atlanta Falcon on the roster who is facing charges for allegedly killing his girlfriend's puppy with a hammer. Check Leonard Little, especially if you get down with MADD. Check the history of sports in this country.

And the sub-angle, sports gambling, check the NBA ref scandal.

The crux of this particular article, pointing out the amazing chasm between certain outrages is stunning to me.

Crossing-over into the mainstream is dangerous for people of color apparently. Question...is anybody here outraged over the 5+ year R.Kelly drama??


Selective calls for due process, redemption and equality have become increasingly apparent to me. I wonder if where I used to find another bastion of sanity, balance and humanity has become another amplification of the nature of the race argument.

Read Wise & Zirin.

Many of you aren't calling for the 'hanging' of Ms. Boddies son (that's Mike's mama), but I've been to far too many MSM sites that are. Do you know what calling for the 'hanging' of a black man in the south means?!?!?!? I've been distraught and disgusted at the way this situation has been handled. Too much fake moral indignation for me to stomach. I find the general tenor of comments on leftist and progressive sites that have posts/articles about this to be full of the deepest and hardest to abort tenets of American capitalism, American racism and American moral hypocrisy.

None of us are exempt.

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tiredofthis
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Posted by: exasperated on Aug 24, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I consider myself a left-leaning liberal, I have to say that I simply cannot stomach another demonstration of a singularly "liberal" talent: finding the defeat, and going to foolish lengths to do so, in even the simplest of victories. Vick, in the face of overwhelming evidence, has chosen to plead guilty to charges of unspeakable animal cruelty and illegal dog fighting. Credit is due all those who have brought this worthless piece of sh*t to justice and have hopefully ended his meaningless career.

The author of this pathetic, meandering, pointless piffle is guilty of making a wholly inappropriate comparison between domestic violence and animal abuse. Alternet, likely feeling the need to be politically correct to the point of being ludicrous, is guilty for posting this idiotic and insulting editorial. No one celebrating the fact that Vick will likely suffer only a small portion of the punishment he truly should be handed for what he has done HAS EVER or WOULD EVER suggest that those who abuse spouses, girlfriends or ANYONE shouldn't be brought to justice.

Want to know why liberal causes appear so weak and diffuse when compared to the lock-step discipline of the Right? It's because of bullshit arguments such as those in this editorial and the inevitable sectarianism and in-fighting that result. Vick has ADMITTED his guilt! I hope he continues to prove just as stupid as I believe him to be and that he therefore messes up his plea deal. He should go to prison for a minimum of five years. F*ck him, f*ck anybody who abuses animals, and f*ck the NFL for giving obscene amounts of money to thuggish cretins who've come to believe that they are above the universal laws of decency and simple compassion.

Alternet should never have posted Kobrin's article, but as they did, I'm gratified to see that so many have written as much to condemn the author and Alternet as to denounce Vick and all like him. For any who may feel as strongly as I do, the most effective way to send a message to the powers behind the obscenity that professional sports has become in our day is to boycott these sports entirely. Spend time with your families, your PETS, volunteer for a local cause, read a book, shut off the goddamned television and go outside.

There, I feel better.

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» RE: tiredofthis Posted by: pizzmoe
» RE: tiredofthis Posted by: axolotl7
» RE: tiredofthis Posted by: DivaMJB

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reposting
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Posted by: karyse on Aug 24, 2007 10:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am reposting a part of an earlier comment I made to make another point.

Well, there actually IS an "excuse for physical violence", and it's a perfectly legitimate one -- I got married to a man who tried to kill me (that was when I was too inexperienced to recognize the personality type). It only happened the one time, because the following day I got a couple of my "redneck" buddies to come to the house with me. I told the asshole, "these are my friends and they will kill you for 25 dollars so march down to the court house and file for a divorce. THIS WEEK."

He did as he was told because I was deadly serious. I wasn't making empty threats and didn't need any cops to come to the house. Of course, first my buddies would have beat the hell out of him, then if that didn't work I may have been forced to "take care of it myself."

Many feminists (and trust me I AM one), rather than teach each other and their daugthers the value of a violent response to violence, which involves being capable of DOING violence when necessary, teach them to "come to mommy" with their problems -- this usually ends up with something like a "restraining order." Uh-huh, THAT works, hey?

A poster referenced "rednecks" as though they were the perpetrators of these kind of autrocities -- au contraire mon frere, it's EXACTLY a redneck that you need if you want to get the hell out of an abusive relationship (including a relationship you might have with "one of their own.") Case in point -- I've witnessed a friend's uncle tied to a chair in a basement for three days because he was beating his wife (the sister of the captors). She loved him, and HE never did it again.

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both make me sick
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Posted by: kittykill on Aug 24, 2007 12:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I work with both abusers and survivors of domestic violence. I have seen so many times that people who abuse do it all across the board. They abuse people, animals, the "system". It doesn't matter. It is about power and control. As far as "women have a choice to leave." Are you kidding me? Finances, mental health, family, religion all play a part as far as women (or men) staying with abusers. It is not as easy as walking out the door. That's why we have restraining and stalking orders.

I see what Vick has done to animals and I am sickened. He should be punished for his crime to the full extent of the law. I agree that the animals need a voice but I also think that we as a community should uprise when we hear of domestic violence. I think that we need to break down the socialization barriers and organize better. Isn't that one of the reasons there is so much social outcry? Yes, we are disgusted but people (like PETA) are good organizers and get the message out there.

If anything good can come out of this, it is that it brings certain issues to the frontline so we can address them.

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Good Valid Points from ALL!
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Posted by: specialEDD on Aug 24, 2007 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read almost ALL OF THE POSTS regarding this horrific revelation regarding Michael Vick. I just want some posters to be VERY CAREFUL before posting. Let us all remember that evil and vile acts come from all people of all races, cultures, creeds, backgrounds, etc. We want to treat each and every one of these heinous crimes (in all of their various forms) as they are and ensure they're prosecuted on a case-by-case basis to the FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW. Comparing, analyzing, arguing about crimes of this magnitude minimizes the [ethical and legal] impact needed to create a solid case against these MONSTERS! Forget Freddy or Jason. The real MONSTERS live in a quiet NICE neighborhood near YOU!

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People who abuse women are often abuse animals too
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Posted by: beatlefanfcb on Aug 24, 2007 5:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Animal abuse and violence against people are directly linked. Animal abuse is considered to be one of the leading indicators of violent criminal behavior.

A study of those receiving services for child abuse from the New Jersey public child protection agency found that animals in the home had also been abused in 88% of the animal-owning families.

A study of battered women in Utah found that 71% reported that their animals had been threatened, harmed, or killed by their abusers.

We know that women often delay leaving abusive men because they fear the abuser will kill or injure their companion animals. I was involved in creating a program in my community to provide emergency shelter for the companion animals of women leaving abusive situations.

Violence against animals desensitizes people to violence in general. This facilitates violence against people.

People who participate in dog fights are are frequently involved in other criminal activity.

I was the Executive Director of an animal shelter that offered a $1,000 reward for information leading to arrest and conviction on dog fighting charges. The first reward we paid out was to a woman who had founded a community watch because she was concerned about drug dealing in her neighborhood. And the person who was caught in the act of organizing a dog fight was one of the neighborhood drug dealers. While he was awaiting trial on the dog fighting charges, he was released on bail. And while he was out on bail he was arrested again for dealing drugs at the local mall.

Those of us who are working on animal abuse issues are often the same people who are involved in working to stop domestic violence precisely because we see the connection.

Sincerely,

Frank Caesar Branchini
Edgewater, MD

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feminist-theist-animalist-ist-ist...
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Posted by: cocozane on Aug 24, 2007 5:13 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no need to limit one's desire for justice; and knowing that we cannot do it all does not mean we are necessarily hypocrits. Comparisons of evil deeds are useless, b/c they trivialize each violent act by quantifying it. We must support the rights of all powerless victims by acting against
the abusers, even while we notice the disproportionate amount of media coverage given, in this case, to dog-fighting vs. spousal or child abuse. It is part of one's consciousness raising to act on the event at hand while noticing how the system tries to minimize any larger social implications.
Mr. Vick's actions caused suffering and death (in this case to dogs). I, for one, am not going to minimize his behavior b/c of his race, gender, social status, or lack of existing NFL bylaws.

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Drown him!
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Posted by: Doggycuny on Aug 24, 2007 8:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He got caught being a naughty ghetto boy! He is no use to the white man and his sport/beer commercials now. He may as well be hung or drowned like his dogs. There'll always be more ghetto boys for us to watch throwing a ball around. Bring on the next ghetto boy! Let the game commence!

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jvb1235
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Posted by: jvb1235 on Aug 24, 2007 8:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shame on you, AlterNet! Take one giant step backwards.
For a moment there I thought I was reading the wrong e-newsletter.....

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funnyhow
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Posted by: staleman on Aug 24, 2007 9:27 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
funny how, the Vice President goes to hunt quail, that are put in an enclosed area for that sole purpose...and it's just a joke, because he shot a man. Where was PETA and all the screaming white folk then?(blacks that want to be white fall in the same category.) you people got to realize that white people sleep with dogs. they call them their children. they pay for expensive operations, take them to the spa, even have funerals for them. it's legal to kill deer, as many of the screaming people do, it's legal to hunt "big game" in Africa, kill rhinos, elephants and more. a dog though is not an animal to them...it's a person. hell, I even seen pics where white folks was having relations with dogs. I feel sorry for Vick. yeah it was wrong, yeah there should be some kinda punishment...like community service. next time Vick should shoot some other black men, seems that's o.k. for anybody.

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» RE: funnyhow Posted by: truthspreader

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what is going on with AlterNet?
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Posted by: DEBKAMAINE on Aug 25, 2007 12:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a woman and I am SHOCKED to see this article in AlterNet. I thought that this was a site of peace? How does the abuse of animals effect the outrage over abuse of women? Abuse in any form is an outrage. Did the writer read about the horrors that were done to these dogs? There were MANY dogs and they were TORTURED. They were electrocuted, hung, starved, beaten--to name a few. If they did not perform for Vick, they were tortured. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WOMEN? Should we not be outraged when a company pollutes a river making it dangerous because another autrocity happened elsewhere?

I am a proud proud member of PETA. I do absolutely as much work as I can for a local peace organization and it goes HAND IN HAND with my work for animals.

IN fact, I am rather tired of this arrogant way that humans look at animals. Animals suffer at the hands of humans. We are their biggest offender. We torture them in the production of meat, we have total dominance over them in the household, and we cage and fence anything that we find running loose.

To my left, as I write this is an ad about the abuse that Wendy's does to chickens. Do I ignore this because women get abused?

LET'S STOP ALL ABUSE.

I feel really bad when animals are relegated to the bottom of the heap. I believe that the breath of life was put into living, feeling, thinking beings and it is not my place to decide who lives and who doesn't. I believe in Hindu traditions and the religion. It is not my place to kill.

Back to the point......life is like a domino effect....if one part of it is out of balance, all of it is out of balance. Let us work on a peaceful community...........peace towards all------>towards minorities, towards the downtrodden, towards the ill and poor, towards all breathing spirits, towards majorities.....

I do not believe that women bring on abuse, but abused people do seem to get beaten down and then afraid of leaving. Why don't we just work on compassion for all?

I am still baffled that Alter Net would have this and the other article about Michael Vick in it. It is certainly contrary to my beliefs.

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acp
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Posted by: acp on Aug 25, 2007 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, since it seems we are doing the litmus test thing again, I must be perfect as I have served as a social worker at a a womens' shelter and volunteered at a no kill animal rescue shelter and have two beloved rescue dogs. Yes, domestic violence, violence of all kinds and a distinctively negative attitude towards women pervades most pro sports. Yes, there should be more outrage towards it - a a million other injustices that just don't seem to affect people like the war. Katrina, health insurance casualties. As someone who has professionally worked with survivors of violence, I would not even connect the story of greed driven, sociopathic animal abuse to the experiences of both women and men involved in violent relatonships. They can become empowered. They leave. They heal. Often against huge odd and with no fanfare or widespread support. Survivors do have a choice, and over time use it in his or her own way. Animals do not. The Vick stroy just may have touched a nerve because of the sheer callousness and evil of picking victims with no choice or capacity to even talk back, and for the sakeof greed and power on the part of an individual who had no need for either. Honestly, if people are outraged by the treatment of animals, who are part of the most vulnerable among us, maybe it will spread. At this point, we all should be taking any outrage we can get in this country.

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People can walk away
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Posted by: drblack on Aug 26, 2007 3:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would hope sports teams would get rid of violent and abusive players and that the law would actually give them the same treatment it would give anyone else.
People can walk away from bad situations and ask for help. Animals can't and unlike people of any age animals are true innocents. (children are ignorant not innocent)
As long as people are fool enough to idolize celebrity they will generally get off for their crimes....if you watch or read all those celebrity gosssip things you help support the worship of celebrity.
Any person with a conscience and a sense of justice and dignity would not watch or support the upcomming Chinese Olympics.
China has been going through Beijing executing dogs and jailing and beating people
China will perform any cruel act in order to look good for the Olympics....If you love dogs..people etc....do not support the Olympics in China.

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» RE: People can walk away Posted by: louisa23

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Devil's advocate
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Posted by: cinattra on Aug 27, 2007 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How does this issue affect all the dog-loving-meat-eaters out there since the slaughter of animals for human consumption can be argued to be no different than what #7 did to the pit bulls he owned?

Yeah, we don't eat dogs but other cultures do. We don't eat horses but other cultures do. We do however eat cows, hogs and chickens and their life and death are not at all pleasant things. We hunt for sport stacking the cards against the animals by using high powered scopes and other tricks to make killing them convenient. We encroach on the habitats of our animal friends by building our homes in their homes.

There is a cultural arrogance about America that is hypocrisy filled and leads it to distort some moral and ethical issues and to totally treat other ones less seriously or not treat them at all.

Michael Vick is guilty of breaching the human-animal compact which regards humans as stewards of the earth and animals as our helpers (and occasional meal). He is no more guilty than the rest of us. This is a step back for humanity for sure and once the Vick bashing stops what do we do about it (our relationship with animals) if anything needs to be done at all?

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» RE: Devil's advocate Posted by: truthspreader

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Hayley
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Posted by: truthspreader on Aug 27, 2007 11:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sick and tired of MEN, especially, suddenly talking about athletes - football players - who beat their wives and no attention is given to it...let alone kicking them out of the NFL. That's a whole other story ---- why didn't you want to "complain" about it before?
This is about a sick, heartless, sadistic, cruel man who had FUN beating, torturing, killing, watching dogs destroy each other, electricuting, hanging, shooting and raising dozens of dogs that had done NOTHING but be born, have an instinctive nature to love and be loyal and want to please their master. Dogs are not grown women. I don't even feel sensible sitting here comparing or separating the two acts: wife-beating vs. dog torture.
Dogs are innocent, sweet, loving, loyal, creatures who WOULD give there very lives to please their owner.
I don't care about Vick's race, his gender, his job, his bank account. He's a HUGE embarrassment to the human race; he's a KILLER of humankind's most loyal, heroic, and loving animal friends.
So why doesn't everyone quit bringing up football players who beat their wives? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT AND HOLDS NO SIMILARITIES WHATSOEVER!!!!!! I don't care right now about that subject. The subject at hand is a sadistic loser who thinks he can say he's sorry to his "fans" and to people ---- but has no regret or remorse for the dogs and what they went through and how they suffered at his hands. "Immature", he calls himself?? PLEASE! Immature is not being able to make a committment or carelessly spending money -- not watching innocent creatures suffer and suffer and suffer.
Just stick to what this guy did. Just stick to caring about his victims.

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animals are the true victims
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Posted by: jesse 1 on Aug 31, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no comparison between abused women and abused animals - particularly women of privilege married to wealthy sports stars. And to compare these situations is demeaning to the women involved, as well. It keeps them in the victim role. It takes away their power and self respect. They do have choices. They do have resources. They can get support. Animals are truly vicitms. They are totally dependent of humans for survival. They can't go to a crisis center or call a friend for help. It's a no brainer. Your article sickened me.

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