COMMENTS: 211
Florida's "Shoot First" Law Reflects Crazy Ideology of Preemption
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Crossing the state line into Florida on I-75, one is greeted by a billboard reading, "Visitor Warning. Florida residents can use deadly force. Please be careful." Erected by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, the sign is a reference to the fact that, for the last year and a half, Floridians have been allowed by law to shoot anyone they want.
Well, not just anyone. A citizen can use deadly force only if, in the words of the law, he or she "believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." So breathe a sigh of relief. As long as you don't give anyone a reason to feel threatened, you're perfectly safe.
The "stand your ground" law - called the "shoot first" law by opponents - passed the Florida legislature by a wide margin. Since it went into effect, similar laws have been passed in at least 14 other states and are being considered in many more.
The law allows someone attacked, even in a public place, to "stand his or her ground" - and to use deadly force if he or she feels it necessary. It revokes a legal requirement to try to avoid conflict. Thus the case of the West Palm Beach cab driver who shot and killed a drunken passenger in an altercation after dropping him off.
In the eminently reasonable words of the foreman of the deadlocked jury, the cab driver "had a lot of chances to retreat and to avoid an escalation. He could have just gotten in his cab and left. The thing could have been avoided, and a man's life would have been saved".
Brooklyn Law School professor Anthony J Sebok told The New York Times that the central innovation of the law is not its elimination of the duty to retreat but the expansion of the right to shoot intruders (intruders into "any… place where [the shooter] has a right to be") who pose no threat to the shooter's safety. "In effect," Sebok told the Times, "the law allows citizens to kill other citizens in defence of property."
Or in defence of trash. Jason Rosenbloom of Clearwater was wounded by his neighbor, Kenneth Allen, who had filed a complaint with local authorities about Rosenbloom leaving eight bags of trash on the curb instead of the regulation six. After a heated exchange, Allen - a retired Virginia police officer - shot Rosenbloom twice; according to Rosenbloom, Allen went back into his house to get the gun and shot Rosenbloom even after he put his hands up. According to Allen, Rosenbloom had his foot in the door and was trying to rush into his house.
Whichever man is to be believed, it is hard to see what in such a circumstance could have necessitated deadly force. But the new law does away with such pesky questions. Allen was not charged. After all, according to him, he felt threatened.
Plus, Allen fulfilled the only requirement of the law: he was not engaged in anything unlawful at the time he shot his neighbor; in other words, he was a law-abiding citizen. This is a phrase that came up a lot during the debate - such as it was - over the passing of the law. The sponsor of the original bill, Rep Dennis Baxley (R-Ocala), said: "What this does is empower law-abiding citizens to stop violent crime in its tracks."
But it was Wayne LaPierre, executive vice-president of the National Rifle Association, which is behind the Florida bill and its brethren in other states, who articulated the true ethos of the Florida bill most plainly. "Good people make good decisions," he said. "That's why they're good people. If you're going to empower someone, empower the crime victim."
I know a lot of incredibly good people who make bad decisions on a daily basis; I know even more good people I wouldn't trust with a gun. But it's clear that these laws really aren't about gun rights at all. They're about the practical application of a moral philosophy of good and evil: There are good people and bad people in the world, and the way to deal with the bad people is to arm the good people to the teeth.
If this good people/bad people philosophy sounds familiar, it's because it's been the basis for most of the rhetoric, and a great deal of the policy decisions, made by the United States government in the last six and a half years. Florida's "shoot first" law may be the most audacious local example of it, but that's just because no one had the temerity until recently to write good and evil into the law.
Essentially, what Florida judges and juries considering shooting cases now have to decide is whether the shooter is a good (the code is "law-abiding") or bad person. If a good person shoots someone, it's okay. If a bad person shoots someone, it's not.
You might call that a double standard, but the current White House calls it common sense. That's why laws in general have seemed a little, well, irrelevant these days. The president is a good man with good intentions; if a law says he can't do something, it can't be a very good law, now can it?
Indeed, Bush has attached signing statements to more than 750 laws enacted by Congress since he took office, statements that say he has the right to disregard these laws when he sees fit. The image, long pushed by Bush and his handlers, is that the president is a good, simple man, and good, simple men simply don't do bad things.
This philosophy underpins many of Bush's rather tortured responses to tough questions. Confronted with the findings of the 9/11 commission, that a great number of warnings about the 2001 terrorist attacks crossed his desk, Bush repeatedly asserted that if he had had the information, he would have stopped the attack. Another way to put that is, since he didn't stop the attack, he couldn't have had the information. Because, to quote LaPierre, "Good people make good decisions."
Like Bush's signing statements, the shoot-first laws are a wholesale rejection of law itself, a step toward replacing a nation of laws with a nation of value judgments; a nation in which whoever is currently considered "good" gets a free pass.
And if you subscribe to the ideology of good and evil, as our government does, you have to be in constant war. There's no way around it. Bad people, to take the logical inverse of LaPierre's philosophy, do bad things. It's in their nature; they can do nothing else. War against evil has no end; its only end is when all the bad people are dead.
All this wreaks havoc on us as human beings. When the law is less important than the perceived nature of the person breaking it, perception becomes everything, and we all become complicit; we all become, in essence, informants. What, exactly, will be the standards for judging someone's goodness?
The subjugation of law to ideology was to be expected, given our current government's moral certitude. I recall a hypothetical that was often posed in debates over the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq: What if, we asked, your neighbour came over and shot you simply because he believed you were a threat?
Advocates of the war protested that that was different; the two situations couldn't even be compared. But the ideology of good versus evil subsumes everything, and all politics is local - and getting closer and closer to the place you're standing right now, perhaps unwittingly making some law-abiding citizen with a gun feel threatened.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Aug 17, 2007 2:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
or, does this mean we can take out politicians we feel threaten our way of life?
america as we knew it is gone
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» No more than for a police officer (and hopefully it will be more difficult for a police officer)
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: No more than for a police officer (and hopefully it will be more difficult for a police officer)
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FDPN on Aug 17, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What else does this mean? It means if someone robs me I can use my legally purchased, owned, and concealed firearm to defend myself.
It means if someone is breaking into my house I can defend my property.
It means I can do something other than run away from the bad guys and call the cops while they commit their felonies.
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» Just an out-and-out lie
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Not true. Once again Mr.Holland only gives 'half of the story'. Whilst defence of person
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Not true. Once again Mr.Holland only gives 'half of the story'. Whilst defence of person
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Not true. Once again Mr.Holland only gives 'half of the story'. Whilst defence of person
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Just another krausse-troll
Posted by: katz22br
» RE: Just another krausse-troll
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: goeswithness
» Well, if it was in a novel, it must be true
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Get real!
Posted by: SteveO
» Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: YogiBear
» A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: YogiBear
» Ah...count on the NRA PR team - Ackerman-McQueen - to show up early!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shangrilalad on Aug 17, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in 2000, when the Supreme Court stopped the Florida vote count and appointed George Bush president, I voiced my discontent publicly. Bad idea in a rural town dominated by rabid republicans. I was called unpatriotic, a liberal and a communist.
A Corrections Officer who lived in Oregon, but worked in California at Pelican Bay prison, threatened to pistol-whip me for voicing my opinion. Soon, the word spread that I was a troublemaker, and store clerks, waitresses, barflies and even a dentist had harsh words for me.
The self-righteous see evil everywhere, but never in their own hearts.
.
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» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: mazel
» Hey Alternet
Posted by: mazel
» RE: Hey Alternet
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» The only Alternet policy my post violated was that it didn't agree with their AGENDA
Posted by: FDPN
» Alternet never deleted my posts even when I disagreed. Try reading your posts FIRST before posting.
Posted by: maxpayne
» There IS a Magic Wand -- the Ignore button -- I just used it on you
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» And best of all ... It works on all posts in all threads FOREVER .
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: And best of all ... It works on all posts in all threads FOREVER .
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: The only Alternet policy my post violated was that it didn't agree with their AGENDA
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: The only Alternet policy my post violated was that it didn't agree with their AGENDA
Posted by: leafsong1
» VIOLENCE is not the answer to life's problems. Here's a better solution.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Max, I don't think you'll make a dent
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Max, I don't think you'll make a dent
Posted by: maxpayne
» make a dent in you
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Abusive men should be killed by their family or whoever else they abuse.
Posted by: YogiBear
» the final craziness for me
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Aug 17, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hobbes wrote of the "war of all against all"; Sinclair Lewis wrote of the Jungle. Nietzsche wrote of the Will to Power. Bush speaks of Freedom -- for whom? Then there were the Prussians. To consider one's own conditions and to vote loud, very loud, is a task for each of us in 2008 as well as forward. If they haven't pre-empted thinking, courtesy of Diebold and such, by election time.
Living with justice, dignity and liberty is at stake. Universals are easy; it's the case that matter when living and not property are at issue. Power relinquished to the state and to the police is power diminished from each of us. It's time to be care-full.
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Posted by: The_Curmudgeon on Aug 17, 2007 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Florida "shoot to kill ... anyone" law is just plain crazy! If it weren't so serious, I'd think it was a plot line straight out of a Mel Brooks movie.
It's too bad that the gun lobby )and memers of the Florida legislature who enacted this most-recent bit of insanity) have not read the entire 2nd amendment to the US Constitution, which says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." A well-regulated militia is an army with disciplined troops, officers and a chain of command. It is not some cracker with a handgun in his hip pocket or a knuckledragger who wraps an Uzi in a "Swedish Bikini Inspector" tee-shirt and sticks it in a corner of the closet. The 2nd amendment says nothing about gun toting louts wasting some guy because he got pissed off and "felt threatened."
In 2002, I was offered a very attractive and lucrative job back home but Bush was president already and things seemed to be going off the rails in America. Thankfully, I turned down the offer and stayed put, waiting for the time when the United States returned to being the country I was taught about in school. You know: Rule of law, free speech, freedom of (and from) religion, a government of, by and for the people.
Will someone please let me know when things are back to normal back in the US so I feel safe coming home?
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» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: I would guess the December 6th, 1989 massacre had something to do with it
Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: Aunty Em Ericann
» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» Not All American States Are The Same When It Comes To Crime Craziness
Posted by: bcgirl125
» I love all the white folks who move to places like Canada and then criticise others who try
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: I love all the white folks who move to places like Canada and then criticise others who try
Posted by: vildechaye
» Another Reason To Be Glad You Stayed In Canada ...
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cordas on Aug 17, 2007 4:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hang on a second doesn't this justify those lonely bullied kids going into school and shooting all the jocks?
Sorry but living in a relatively safe country like the UK I really can't comprehend why you Americans have such insane gun laws in the 1st place... People DO NOT need guns.
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» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: goeswithness
» Can you read?
Posted by: marid
» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Have your heard of sarcasm? How about Irony?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Have your heard of sarcasm? How about Irony?
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: cordas
» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Its quite simple really...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Its quite simple really...
Posted by: Griallia
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Posted by: packofwolves on Aug 17, 2007 4:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Until it's your turn
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Until it's your turn
Posted by: gathaiga
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Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 17, 2007 4:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since all the instances mentioned here ended up in the courts, it is still up to the court to decide who is innocent and who is guilty. So does the new law do something more than remove the presumption of guilt from someone who uses deadly force?
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» RE: Preemption preempts the presumption of innocence? or of guilt?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Preemption preempts the presumption of innocence? or of guilt?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Preemption preempts the presumption of innocence? or of guilt?
Posted by: newtype_alpha
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 17, 2007 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corporate America and the sellouts in Tallahassee love it when the working class are too busy worrying about their guns even as the rest of their freedom is being stolen. George Orwell would be horrified by now. A gun is not going to protect you from your business enemies such as telco, cableco, utility, bankers, etc ...
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 17, 2007 6:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have all read the horror stories. Stories about a familly getting sued by a burlar that was bit by the family dog because they didn't have a beware of dog sign. Or the victim getting arrested for killing an assailant when he/she had the oppurtunity to "retreat". This law, imperfect like all of our laws, at least will help level the playing field between the victims and predators. It has nothing to do with guns. I can easily defend myself with a variety of household objects like my Mr. Bean DVD's. I'm all for it so bring on the negative feed back and beat me up. Just remember what could happen if I feel threatened though.lol
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» You really think so?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: You really think so?
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Nonsense...
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Nonsense...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Affirmative defense was available prior to this law
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Affirmative defense was available prior to this law
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: I won't disagree that you are a yahoo
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Innocent Deaths =/= Innocent Deaths
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Totally untrue
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Always?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Always? Yes, even in Texas
Posted by: Ripcord
» I recall a case of an intruder successfully suing the home owner who shot him.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BenCaxton12 on Aug 17, 2007 6:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "Hunting Burglers on your own Land." What the law is really about ...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: cyrano on Aug 17, 2007 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What happens when some unfortunate kid walks up to a neighbor's house and pounds on the door offering to mow the lawn?
Can my neighbor shoot a person of color because he feels threatened by someone who is different?
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» RE: On top of all the other negatives...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» This actually happened -
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: On top of all the other negatives...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: hayduke1 on Aug 17, 2007 7:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is this how the revolution begins?
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» RE: politicians threaten us
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: scheherezade on Aug 17, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indeed, that gun rights would end up a key conservative tenet is historically counterintuitive.
In the past, when governments moved against public freedoms, the first order of business was always to seize individual weapons caches.
Here in Florida, that trend is beginning to reemerge: the most recent gun-rights issue
involved this year’s bill to ensure employees’ rights to keep a weapon in their cars (on employer property).
On that topic, the very conservative Chamber of Commerce came out AGAINST gun rights, and the Republican majority legislature made sure the issue never reached a potentially embarrassing vote.
I expect this is a harbinger of things to come. Congress, whether stocked with Republicans or Democrats, is controlled by corporate and political interests who have every reason to fear a well-defended populace.
Private Blackwater commando bases are proliferating throughout the U.S., at the same time public policy has forced wages to an all time low. What happens when service economy employees finally decide to demand a living wage paycheck…and who will be more threatened/reactionary, WalMart or Jim Bob?
As far as personal safety, most Florida residents will attest that gun ownership absolutely deters crime.
In Hurricane Ivan’s aftermath, the Panhandle experienced little looting or violent crime, despite widespread power and infrastructure shortages. When criminals stake out Florida homes, OR approach Florida residents in the Mall parking lot, they’re well aware that most people own and know how to use guns.
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» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: gathaiga
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: alicelillie
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Why do you bring up facts?
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Violent crime & Guns
Posted by: scheherezade
» Castle Doctrine won't make a dent
Posted by: scheherezade
» (Florida violent crime's not necessarily gun related)
Posted by: scheherezade
» You and I are Left Out (not left, not right, not center). Semi-Jokingly, Aouie.
Posted by: aouie01
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Posted by: NumberSix on Aug 17, 2007 8:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's all about fear. The idea is to make everyone scared poopless of anything and everything. The proponents of said laws may quote the NRA, Knox, whomever, but the undercurrent to such is just this: "WE WANT YOU TO STAY SCARED."
It's a military tactic: Divide and conquer. If we are all packing clips, polishing the chrome, packing wad cutters, and yes, always looking over our shoulders, we won't notice the man behind the curtain laughing his ass off at our paranoia. We'll be too busy playing the OK Corral scenario to mind that these bastards are playing us, playing on our fear, using us. CNN will, yes, cover a few genuine shoot-outs, winner take nothing. Meanwhile, Uncle Sam cackles with evil glee.
Just another step towards tyranny, folks, nothing to see here.
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» RE: The real tactic to such laws?
Posted by: Axiom69
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Posted by: maryfens@earthlink.net on Aug 17, 2007 8:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How on earth can something so subjective be reasonably legislated? Does the average citizen make their most cogent judgements when under stress? Of course not.
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» Nonsense.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Nonsense.
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: What this really, REALLY means
Posted by: Redviper
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Posted by: alicelillie on Aug 17, 2007 8:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is a threatened person supposed to do, get down on his or her knees and plead not to be attacked?
Having said that, it is also true that a person has the *responsibility* to judge the threat properly. It is a subjective judgement call, and you might unnecessarily injure someone and you might find a jury making a judgement call on you if you over-do self-defense, so it behooves one to be very hesitant to use force in self-defense, but one must be able to use whatever force is necessary.
Every person has the natural right to self-defense, so potential criminals are disinclined to try to commit crime in places where individuals' rights to self-defense are honored. They will heed the warning to "be careful," or go to places like DC or San Fran where the laws are more favorable to criminals because the God-given rights of the law abiding are infringed.
I personally do not believe in any gun laws at all as they give too much power to politicians and bureaucrats and are oppressive to all law-abiding people, particularly the poor as low-income neighborhoods are more crime-ridden.
The right to keep and bear arms is an individual civil liberty, and the one to decide if you are allowed this right is the person in the mirror.
You are *responsible* for your decisions, including the decision how much force is necessary to protect yourself and your children.
If you agree, consider supporting Ron Paul. BTW, Paul is truly anti-war and opposed the insane war on drugs too.
See my blog at http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com
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» RE: Self-Defense is a Right!!!
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: Self-Defense is a Right!!!
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Finally, a rational comment!
Posted by: chief of okeefe
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 17, 2007 8:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets leave the "gun debate" for another article and stick to the facts of this one.
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» RE: THIS IS NOT A GUN LAW
Posted by: mazel
» RE: THIS IS NOT A GUN LAW
Posted by: Axiom69
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Posted by: mgloraine on Aug 17, 2007 9:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will afford the bearer legal recourse in case someone shoots him (and he survives): "You can't shoot me - I'm a Good Citizen!" And, of course, it gives the bearer the right to shoot anyone NOT carrying a Good Citizen Card.
See? Law and order can be easy if you avoid "philosophical" issues like good and evil and stick with facts, like who has money and who is whiter.
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» RE: Good Citizen ID Cards - another BushCo product!
Posted by: winterinashes
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Aug 17, 2007 9:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Reporting Discriminatory and hateful post (testing Alternet's free expression vs enforcement)
Posted by: aouie01
» Good link to support your comment.
Posted by: TKO
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Posted by: benEzra on Aug 17, 2007 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
QUOTE:
(1) Justified Self-Defense
A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another if and only if:
(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND
(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND
(c) The citizen using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, AND
(d) Force used was not excessive -- greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor."
END QUOTE
(Emphasis added.)
Note that ALL FOUR conditions must generally be met in order for a shooting to be ruled justifiable (there is an exception for someone kicking your door in, but we'll get to that in a minute). A small handful of states used to add a FIFTH criterion to the list above, that of running away from the imminent lethal threat before turning to defend yourself (and hoping the attacker doesn't kill you while your back is turned). Florida was one of those states, and eliminated it with the new law; most states have never had such a provision to start with.
OK, the really important part. Where a lot of people get spun is the deliberate distortion of the phrase "reasonably believes" in self-defense statutes. Reasonable belief does *NOT* mean merely "feeling threatened"; the phrase is a legal term, and its definition in the context of self-defense law is that in paragraph (b) above--i.e., that "the facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault." Merely "feeling threatened" isn't reasonable belief; the belief has to be objectively rational, i.e. there is in fact a guy standing in front of you holding what appears to be a knife in a threatening posture.
Also, it is important to understand that a claim of self-defense is not an automatic exemption to the laws against homicide. Rather, it is what is known as an "affirmative defense"; unlike the regular innocent-until-proven-guilty standard applied to a criminal act, the onus in a self-defense shooting is on the shooter to demonstrate that the shooting WAS indeed justifiable self-defense. In other words, in a self-defense case, the standard is "guilty unless shown innocent," and if the shooting is questionable, it is much more likely to swing against the person claiming self-defense than it is to swing in their favor.
OK, back to the new Florida law. The Florida law's primary effect was to eliminate the "duty to run away" provision, which was very subjective and had been abused by overzealous prosecutors; as I mentioned, most states don't have them, and a truly questionable scenario (you could have walked away in complete safety, but didn't) would fail points (a) and (c) anyway.
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» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Self-defense is a defense
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» The absence of that information in this article labels it as propaganda.
Posted by: Sojourner
» How gullible do you have to be ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part three) ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: Blade
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: Graeme
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This Brooklyn law professor
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: bigremo
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fearn on Aug 17, 2007 9:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It refutes this...
Posted by: Sojourner
» This belongs above as a comment on Holland's comment.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Fair enough, but ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» My bias is, I don't like left wing propaganda any more than right wing propaganda.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ankhet on Aug 17, 2007 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gawsh knows, there are enough real problems in America that need your attention and that demand concerted action. (eg. get law enforcement agencies that use your tax money to do their job properly; education; health care; militarization of civil society; destruction of habeas corpus, free speech, human rights and dignity, labour laws, food&drug safety; environmental issues, etc etc etc..)
And stop with the juvenile, alarmist, imaginary, hypothetical scenarios already. There will always be the odd armed wacko acting on some wild delusion; that's not predictable, and making potential killers out of everybody - all armed all the time - creates more problems than it solves. Somehow the rest of the world (except where imperialist America is a significant presence) is doing just fine, not having to duck bullets on a daily basis in city squares, colleges, and malls, without all the citizens packing heat. People even say hello to each other on the street! Create a culture in which you can be civil and not fear each other as enemies, and in which you can even work together for the common good. That's the best protection of all.
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Posted by: eosrk on Aug 17, 2007 10:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I said, "yeah right", and hung up on them.
Next time it happens, I'll call .45 insetad, which is always on standby after that spoof!
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» RE: screw 911, .45 caliber responds better
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Aug 17, 2007 10:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or how about the next time a black kid in a poor neighborhood feels threatened by the police, let's see how well the law holds up for him when he pulls out a Glock and pumps a few into the Po-lice.
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» And in Florida you can plug his dumb ass brother too.
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: And in Florida you can plug his dumb ass brother too.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Let's Invite Dubya Down To Florida
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lamar on Aug 17, 2007 10:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This should be called the "Don't Challenge My Ego Or I'll Shoot Law."
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» RE: "Don't Challenge My Ego Or I'll Shoot Law"
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: "Don't Challenge My Ego Or I'll Shoot Law"
Posted by: MtnMig
Comments are closed-
Posted by: frank69 on Aug 17, 2007 12:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jwc1480 on Aug 17, 2007 12:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I would rather have a pistol in my hand than a cop
on the phone".
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» RE: Guns are popular
Posted by: Upset
» RE: Guns are popular
Posted by: Redviper
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 17, 2007 2:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first directive was for Pastors to preach to their congregations Romans 13, the often taken out of context bible passage that was used by Hitler to hoodwink Christians into supporting him, in order to teach them to "obey the government" when martial law is declared.
It was related to the Pastors that quarantines, martial law and forced relocation were a problem for state authorities when enforcing federal mandates due to the "cowboy mentality" of citizens standing up for their property and second amendment rights as well as farmers defending their crops and livestock from seizure.
It was stressed that the Pastors needed to preach subservience to the authorities ahead of time in preparation for the round-ups and to make it clear to the congregation that "this is for their own good."
Pastors were told that they would be backed up by law enforcement in controlling uncooperative individuals and that they would even lead SWAT teams in attempting to quell resistance.
I may not look at guns as a solution but if gun toters actually fight to restore the rest of America's freedom, then I'll applaud them. Right now, unfortunately, they're being distracted on the issue of "liberals taking away their guns nonsense" that they are ready to give up the rest of their freedom and their economic well being and livable environment. Worse, it is so hard to believe that the NRA and most of the gun lobbyists are siding with the coup instead of siding with the people to overthrow the coup.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 17, 2007 5:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I'd say the gun toters are scarier due to their lack of proper focus against the real culprits
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The guys in the White House scare me-
Posted by: Redviper
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Redviper on Aug 17, 2007 7:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Self-defense, as a personal right, has nothing to do the ill-conceived and downright stupid notion of preemptive war.
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» RE: I thought the left had gotten smarter on this issue
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I thought the left had gotten smarter on this issue
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I'm a chocolate and peanut butter kind of guy
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I thought the left had gotten smarter on this issue
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Correct. Self-defense has nothing to do with preemptive war
Posted by: Ripcord
Comments are closed-
Posted by: faultroy on Aug 17, 2007 7:40 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This law was necessary because as the article states, people are required to retreat and run in the face of armed robbery, car jackings, and even burglaries. There was an old joke that if a person was breaking into your home, and you shot him, you had better make sure that he fell into the house as opposed to outside of the home--otherwise, you could face murder charges.
The sad fact is that today's society is so litigitous that even someone comitting a felony was capable of suing a victim of a crime if they were injured. Then, there is the fact that a person was not even allowed to defend his own home. Contrary to this article, people do not have the right to shoot anyone they want. Just once, I would like to see Alternet Editors reign in their rogue writers.
The law merely states what the constitution of the United States has always articulated: People have a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness--and part of their right is to not be molested, attacked or robbed by anyone. And, if someone should do you and your property personal harm, you have the right to defend yourself.
The article's example of the former police officer shooting his neighbor and the neighbor stating that he was shot is cold blood is just another example of gross distortion. The ex officer would have to prove that he shot the neighbor where he said he shot him (i.e. by the inside of the door). There would have to be scuffle marks, something to indicate that the incident occurred as he said it did. (If he tried to get into the house as the ex officer stated, where are the finger prints on the door?)
That is the inherent problem with so much of the rhetoric and biased articles that Alternet continues to push--they are all incomplete.
No State Attorney would accept a person being shot without some corroborating evidence substantiating the fact that someone was shot under justifiable circumstances.
Please, let's keep it fair and balanced...leave the histrionics to the Feminists.
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» Never forget Rudy Ridge, and Waco Texas either!
Posted by: common intelligence
» Leave the histrionics to the Feminists?
Posted by: Ellie1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TerryS on Aug 17, 2007 9:06 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
public place, to "stand his or her ground" -
and to use deadly force if he or she feels
it necessary. It revokes a legal requirement
to try to avoid conflict."
For the last 50 years, a "stand your ground"
attitude has been pervasive in the movies and
television. In the movies, the hero, in the
end, always "stands his ground" and comes
out triumphant. It's a standard cliche, that
the hero wants to avoid conflict, but is
forced to act aggressively, and it is this
aggression which solves any and all problems.
After 50 years of viewers being taught that
violence *is* the solution, is it any
wonder that such laws would be very popular.
http://www.tvsmarter.com/documents/aggression.html
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» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: YogiBear on Aug 17, 2007 9:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The state of Florida in the United States became the first to enact such a law on October 1, 2005. The Florida statute allows the use of deadly force when a person reasonably believes it necessary to prevent the commission of a 'forcible felony.' Under the statute, forcible felonies include 'treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.'
The Florida law authorizes the use of defensive force by anyone 'who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be.' Furthermore, under the law, such a person 'has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.' The statute also grants civil and criminal immunity to anyone found to have had such a reasonable belief."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law
That was easy!
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Posted by: common intelligence on Aug 17, 2007 10:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well now what do you think happened to all those children that where the off spring of those rapes? Hell, they of grew up in Florida,and the southern states!
So now. it is no wonder why these paranoid gun toters want to shoot first and carry on like pirates. They even have the retired New Yorkers living there scared enough to want to carry guns. Look George Bush is from there, Jeb, Trent Jabba-the-Lott. Hell everyone who wants these stupid gun toten rights is from the south. The whole east coast, where the military school and bases that perpetuate the war mind set is from there.
It's my guess if you could follow these peoples family trees back you'll find the blood of pirates runs through there veins.
Piracy in not such an acceptible trait to perpetuate if our society has any aspirations to truely want democracy, truth, justice,.........hell what am I talking about, that's not what our government wants at all. That wouldn't be good for fascist capitalism and conspicous consumption, Growth (till we pop).
The state of California is suppose to grow by 2/3 by 2050. The rest of the nation won't be far behind. Hell all these pirates will be dead and gone by then. Why should they give a rats ass? After all, it'll be primarily be brown skinned people anyway.
Well like the mercenaries (blackwater) code says, " kill'm all, Let God sort'm out".
What a sick example of humanity this country.
By the way, this isn't the United States any more. The pirate government has seen to that. Do don't worry about saving it. you all aready let'm have it.
Those commercials for the National Guard and such, about protecting "America". who are they trying to kid? Poor young kids are being told a propaganda story to fight for something they don't know anything about except what America use to be.
Terrorist? Hell the government is the terroist. never forget Waco Texas or Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City or that 911 was and is a complete cover-up of the truth.
Yah, if people never force the truth of 911 to come to the top and imprison Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rummy, the whole PNAC, Then forget protecting Amerca it's already gone. (Pelosi is seeing to that!)
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Aug 17, 2007 10:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Oh, Goody
Posted by: Redviper
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Posted by: lib3288 on Aug 18, 2007 2:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This is just great.
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This is just great.
Posted by: MtnMig
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ripcord on Aug 18, 2007 4:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MINES AND MINING
CHAPTER 7
MINERAL RIGHTS IN STATE LANDS
47-702. RIGHT OF EXPLORATION AND WITHDRAWAL. (1) All lands belonging to
the state of Idaho in which the mineral deposits, excepting oil and gas and
geothermal resources, are owned by the state, and which have not been located,
leased, or withdrawn in accordance with the terms of this chapter,
are hereby
declared to be free and open to casual exploration.
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Posted by: Beagle17 on Aug 19, 2007 1:45 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Soon after the movie made waves, President Bush was seeking to make war - of the preemptive kind. It occurred to me then, and many times since, that this notion of preemption likely represents the answer to Moore's question.
What distinguishes Canadians from Americans more than anything else? It is not that Canadians are really any "nicer" than Americans, it is that Americans are born inside a culture of preemption. Shoot first; ask questions later.
Looking at the historical record shows clearly that GWB did not invent the concept of preemptive war. He merely named it honestly, or at least got the preemptive part right. All of America's recent wars have been held up as efforts to "defend" the country from harm. But why does this defense always seem to take place on foreign soil?
Interestingly, America is the country that, more than any other, holds up Christian virtue as support for the moral right of the U.S. government to act in this preemptive fashion. But, the core of Jesus' teaching, as I understand things, is better captured in the phrase, 'turn the other cheek' than in the phrase, 'shoot first'.
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» RE: Preemption is the answer to M. Moore's Bowling For Columbine question
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Preemption is the answer to M. Moore's Bowling For Columbine question
Posted by: Redviper
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ALANHESTER on Aug 19, 2007 6:08 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: THIS WILL DO NOTHING....
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: THIS WILL DO NOTHING....
Posted by: winterinashes
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MtnMig on Aug 19, 2007 10:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, a liberal democrat, this seems a strange thing to say but after having my house surrounded by violent felons threatening my life and that of my family, you too might give more thought to the right of civilians to defend themselves, especially when inept and corrupt police do not care to aid, in this case, what they called a “gringo”.
You might say that the solution is for the authorities to do their job and to protect citizens. I could not agree more but I am not willing to be a martyr, would you? I found that one of the individuals threatening me has been arrested and charged with four felonies including battery on a police officer and two illegal gun positions charges. In all four cases the District Attorney in Dade County (Miami) never pursued any of the changes. So what happens now? Do I sell my home while the market is down and lose tens of thousands of dollars? I’m not exactly rich either.
I am a law abiding citizen wishing to be in my home at peace. For the next two years this is exactly where I will stay and I am ready to defend my right to do so.
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» RE: Move beyond your knee-jerk reactions
Posted by: Redviper
» I suggest you set up a gun turret...
Posted by: may261989
» RE: I suggest you set up a gun turret...
Posted by: MtnMig
» RE: Move beyond your knee-jerk reactions
Posted by: winterinashes
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jfyshie on Aug 20, 2007 8:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
Posted by: Axiom69
» Quote of the year
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
Posted by: winterinashes
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fox1 on Aug 23, 2007 2:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: winterinashes on Aug 25, 2007 10:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ich vs. Poor - the class war is on
Posted by: fox1
» RE: ich vs. Poor - the class war is on
Posted by: winterinashes
Comments are closed-
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Aug 17, 2007 2:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
or, does this mean we can take out politicians we feel threaten our way of life?
america as we knew it is gone
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» No more than for a police officer (and hopefully it will be more difficult for a police officer)
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: No more than for a police officer (and hopefully it will be more difficult for a police officer)
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: FDPN on Aug 17, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What else does this mean? It means if someone robs me I can use my legally purchased, owned, and concealed firearm to defend myself.
It means if someone is breaking into my house I can defend my property.
It means I can do something other than run away from the bad guys and call the cops while they commit their felonies.
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» Just an out-and-out lie
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Not true. Once again Mr.Holland only gives 'half of the story'. Whilst defence of person
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Not true. Once again Mr.Holland only gives 'half of the story'. Whilst defence of person
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Not true. Once again Mr.Holland only gives 'half of the story'. Whilst defence of person
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Just another krausse-troll
Posted by: katz22br
» RE: Just another krausse-troll
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: goeswithness
» Well, if it was in a novel, it must be true
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Get real!
Posted by: SteveO
» Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Compare to NY Penal Code as an example
Posted by: YogiBear
» A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: A Lost Cause????????????
Posted by: YogiBear
» Ah...count on the NRA PR team - Ackerman-McQueen - to show up early!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: This is what this law REALLY means (ignore this crazy anti-gun propaganda)
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shangrilalad on Aug 17, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in 2000, when the Supreme Court stopped the Florida vote count and appointed George Bush president, I voiced my discontent publicly. Bad idea in a rural town dominated by rabid republicans. I was called unpatriotic, a liberal and a communist.
A Corrections Officer who lived in Oregon, but worked in California at Pelican Bay prison, threatened to pistol-whip me for voicing my opinion. Soon, the word spread that I was a troublemaker, and store clerks, waitresses, barflies and even a dentist had harsh words for me.
The self-righteous see evil everywhere, but never in their own hearts.
.
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» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: kelt65
» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: mazel
» Hey Alternet
Posted by: mazel
» RE: Hey Alternet
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» The only Alternet policy my post violated was that it didn't agree with their AGENDA
Posted by: FDPN
» Alternet never deleted my posts even when I disagreed. Try reading your posts FIRST before posting.
Posted by: maxpayne
» There IS a Magic Wand -- the Ignore button -- I just used it on you
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» And best of all ... It works on all posts in all threads FOREVER .
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: And best of all ... It works on all posts in all threads FOREVER .
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: The only Alternet policy my post violated was that it didn't agree with their AGENDA
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: The only Alternet policy my post violated was that it didn't agree with their AGENDA
Posted by: leafsong1
» VIOLENCE is not the answer to life's problems. Here's a better solution.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Max, I don't think you'll make a dent
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Max, I don't think you'll make a dent
Posted by: maxpayne
» make a dent in you
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Abusive men should be killed by their family or whoever else they abuse.
Posted by: YogiBear
» the final craziness for me
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: Gutter trash that attack people in public need to die
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Aug 17, 2007 3:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hobbes wrote of the "war of all against all"; Sinclair Lewis wrote of the Jungle. Nietzsche wrote of the Will to Power. Bush speaks of Freedom -- for whom? Then there were the Prussians. To consider one's own conditions and to vote loud, very loud, is a task for each of us in 2008 as well as forward. If they haven't pre-empted thinking, courtesy of Diebold and such, by election time.
Living with justice, dignity and liberty is at stake. Universals are easy; it's the case that matter when living and not property are at issue. Power relinquished to the state and to the police is power diminished from each of us. It's time to be care-full.
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Posted by: The_Curmudgeon on Aug 17, 2007 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Florida "shoot to kill ... anyone" law is just plain crazy! If it weren't so serious, I'd think it was a plot line straight out of a Mel Brooks movie.
It's too bad that the gun lobby )and memers of the Florida legislature who enacted this most-recent bit of insanity) have not read the entire 2nd amendment to the US Constitution, which says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." A well-regulated militia is an army with disciplined troops, officers and a chain of command. It is not some cracker with a handgun in his hip pocket or a knuckledragger who wraps an Uzi in a "Swedish Bikini Inspector" tee-shirt and sticks it in a corner of the closet. The 2nd amendment says nothing about gun toting louts wasting some guy because he got pissed off and "felt threatened."
In 2002, I was offered a very attractive and lucrative job back home but Bush was president already and things seemed to be going off the rails in America. Thankfully, I turned down the offer and stayed put, waiting for the time when the United States returned to being the country I was taught about in school. You know: Rule of law, free speech, freedom of (and from) religion, a government of, by and for the people.
Will someone please let me know when things are back to normal back in the US so I feel safe coming home?
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» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: I would guess the December 6th, 1989 massacre had something to do with it
Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: Aunty Em Ericann
» RE: Another Reason To Be Glad I Moved To Canada ...
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» Not All American States Are The Same When It Comes To Crime Craziness
Posted by: bcgirl125
» I love all the white folks who move to places like Canada and then criticise others who try
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: I love all the white folks who move to places like Canada and then criticise others who try
Posted by: vildechaye
» Another Reason To Be Glad You Stayed In Canada ...
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cordas on Aug 17, 2007 4:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hang on a second doesn't this justify those lonely bullied kids going into school and shooting all the jocks?
Sorry but living in a relatively safe country like the UK I really can't comprehend why you Americans have such insane gun laws in the 1st place... People DO NOT need guns.
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» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: goeswithness
» Can you read?
Posted by: marid
» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Have your heard of sarcasm? How about Irony?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Have your heard of sarcasm? How about Irony?
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: cordas
» RE: So, my post that said criminals deserve to die was deleted...how about this one?
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Its quite simple really...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Its quite simple really...
Posted by: Griallia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: packofwolves on Aug 17, 2007 4:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Until it's your turn
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Until it's your turn
Posted by: gathaiga
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 17, 2007 4:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since all the instances mentioned here ended up in the courts, it is still up to the court to decide who is innocent and who is guilty. So does the new law do something more than remove the presumption of guilt from someone who uses deadly force?
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» RE: Preemption preempts the presumption of innocence? or of guilt?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Preemption preempts the presumption of innocence? or of guilt?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Preemption preempts the presumption of innocence? or of guilt?
Posted by: newtype_alpha
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 17, 2007 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corporate America and the sellouts in Tallahassee love it when the working class are too busy worrying about their guns even as the rest of their freedom is being stolen. George Orwell would be horrified by now. A gun is not going to protect you from your business enemies such as telco, cableco, utility, bankers, etc ...
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Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 17, 2007 6:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have all read the horror stories. Stories about a familly getting sued by a burlar that was bit by the family dog because they didn't have a beware of dog sign. Or the victim getting arrested for killing an assailant when he/she had the oppurtunity to "retreat". This law, imperfect like all of our laws, at least will help level the playing field between the victims and predators. It has nothing to do with guns. I can easily defend myself with a variety of household objects like my Mr. Bean DVD's. I'm all for it so bring on the negative feed back and beat me up. Just remember what could happen if I feel threatened though.lol
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» You really think so?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: You really think so?
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Nonsense...
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Nonsense...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Affirmative defense was available prior to this law
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Affirmative defense was available prior to this law
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: I won't disagree that you are a yahoo
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Innocent Deaths =/= Innocent Deaths
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Totally untrue
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Always?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Always? Yes, even in Texas
Posted by: Ripcord
» I recall a case of an intruder successfully suing the home owner who shot him.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BenCaxton12 on Aug 17, 2007 6:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "Hunting Burglers on your own Land." What the law is really about ...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cyrano on Aug 17, 2007 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What happens when some unfortunate kid walks up to a neighbor's house and pounds on the door offering to mow the lawn?
Can my neighbor shoot a person of color because he feels threatened by someone who is different?
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» RE: On top of all the other negatives...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» This actually happened -
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: On top of all the other negatives...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hayduke1 on Aug 17, 2007 7:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is this how the revolution begins?
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» RE: politicians threaten us
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: scheherezade on Aug 17, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indeed, that gun rights would end up a key conservative tenet is historically counterintuitive.
In the past, when governments moved against public freedoms, the first order of business was always to seize individual weapons caches.
Here in Florida, that trend is beginning to reemerge: the most recent gun-rights issue
involved this year’s bill to ensure employees’ rights to keep a weapon in their cars (on employer property).
On that topic, the very conservative Chamber of Commerce came out AGAINST gun rights, and the Republican majority legislature made sure the issue never reached a potentially embarrassing vote.
I expect this is a harbinger of things to come. Congress, whether stocked with Republicans or Democrats, is controlled by corporate and political interests who have every reason to fear a well-defended populace.
Private Blackwater commando bases are proliferating throughout the U.S., at the same time public policy has forced wages to an all time low. What happens when service economy employees finally decide to demand a living wage paycheck…and who will be more threatened/reactionary, WalMart or Jim Bob?
As far as personal safety, most Florida residents will attest that gun ownership absolutely deters crime.
In Hurricane Ivan’s aftermath, the Panhandle experienced little looting or violent crime, despite widespread power and infrastructure shortages. When criminals stake out Florida homes, OR approach Florida residents in the Mall parking lot, they’re well aware that most people own and know how to use guns.
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» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: gathaiga
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: alicelillie
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Why do you bring up facts?
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: 'Far left progressives' own guns too
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Violent crime & Guns
Posted by: scheherezade
» Castle Doctrine won't make a dent
Posted by: scheherezade
» (Florida violent crime's not necessarily gun related)
Posted by: scheherezade
» You and I are Left Out (not left, not right, not center). Semi-Jokingly, Aouie.
Posted by: aouie01
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NumberSix on Aug 17, 2007 8:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's all about fear. The idea is to make everyone scared poopless of anything and everything. The proponents of said laws may quote the NRA, Knox, whomever, but the undercurrent to such is just this: "WE WANT YOU TO STAY SCARED."
It's a military tactic: Divide and conquer. If we are all packing clips, polishing the chrome, packing wad cutters, and yes, always looking over our shoulders, we won't notice the man behind the curtain laughing his ass off at our paranoia. We'll be too busy playing the OK Corral scenario to mind that these bastards are playing us, playing on our fear, using us. CNN will, yes, cover a few genuine shoot-outs, winner take nothing. Meanwhile, Uncle Sam cackles with evil glee.
Just another step towards tyranny, folks, nothing to see here.
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» RE: The real tactic to such laws?
Posted by: Axiom69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maryfens@earthlink.net on Aug 17, 2007 8:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How on earth can something so subjective be reasonably legislated? Does the average citizen make their most cogent judgements when under stress? Of course not.
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» Nonsense.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Nonsense.
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: What this really, REALLY means
Posted by: Redviper
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alicelillie on Aug 17, 2007 8:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is a threatened person supposed to do, get down on his or her knees and plead not to be attacked?
Having said that, it is also true that a person has the *responsibility* to judge the threat properly. It is a subjective judgement call, and you might unnecessarily injure someone and you might find a jury making a judgement call on you if you over-do self-defense, so it behooves one to be very hesitant to use force in self-defense, but one must be able to use whatever force is necessary.
Every person has the natural right to self-defense, so potential criminals are disinclined to try to commit crime in places where individuals' rights to self-defense are honored. They will heed the warning to "be careful," or go to places like DC or San Fran where the laws are more favorable to criminals because the God-given rights of the law abiding are infringed.
I personally do not believe in any gun laws at all as they give too much power to politicians and bureaucrats and are oppressive to all law-abiding people, particularly the poor as low-income neighborhoods are more crime-ridden.
The right to keep and bear arms is an individual civil liberty, and the one to decide if you are allowed this right is the person in the mirror.
You are *responsible* for your decisions, including the decision how much force is necessary to protect yourself and your children.
If you agree, consider supporting Ron Paul. BTW, Paul is truly anti-war and opposed the insane war on drugs too.
See my blog at http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com
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» RE: Self-Defense is a Right!!!
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: Self-Defense is a Right!!!
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Finally, a rational comment!
Posted by: chief of okeefe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on Aug 17, 2007 8:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets leave the "gun debate" for another article and stick to the facts of this one.
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» RE: THIS IS NOT A GUN LAW
Posted by: mazel
» RE: THIS IS NOT A GUN LAW
Posted by: Axiom69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mgloraine on Aug 17, 2007 9:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will afford the bearer legal recourse in case someone shoots him (and he survives): "You can't shoot me - I'm a Good Citizen!" And, of course, it gives the bearer the right to shoot anyone NOT carrying a Good Citizen Card.
See? Law and order can be easy if you avoid "philosophical" issues like good and evil and stick with facts, like who has money and who is whiter.
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» RE: Good Citizen ID Cards - another BushCo product!
Posted by: winterinashes
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Aug 17, 2007 9:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Reporting Discriminatory and hateful post (testing Alternet's free expression vs enforcement)
Posted by: aouie01
» Good link to support your comment.
Posted by: TKO
Comments are closed-
Posted by: benEzra on Aug 17, 2007 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
QUOTE:
(1) Justified Self-Defense
A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another if and only if:
(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND
(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND
(c) The citizen using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, AND
(d) Force used was not excessive -- greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor."
END QUOTE
(Emphasis added.)
Note that ALL FOUR conditions must generally be met in order for a shooting to be ruled justifiable (there is an exception for someone kicking your door in, but we'll get to that in a minute). A small handful of states used to add a FIFTH criterion to the list above, that of running away from the imminent lethal threat before turning to defend yourself (and hoping the attacker doesn't kill you while your back is turned). Florida was one of those states, and eliminated it with the new law; most states have never had such a provision to start with.
OK, the really important part. Where a lot of people get spun is the deliberate distortion of the phrase "reasonably believes" in self-defense statutes. Reasonable belief does *NOT* mean merely "feeling threatened"; the phrase is a legal term, and its definition in the context of self-defense law is that in paragraph (b) above--i.e., that "the facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault." Merely "feeling threatened" isn't reasonable belief; the belief has to be objectively rational, i.e. there is in fact a guy standing in front of you holding what appears to be a knife in a threatening posture.
Also, it is important to understand that a claim of self-defense is not an automatic exemption to the laws against homicide. Rather, it is what is known as an "affirmative defense"; unlike the regular innocent-until-proven-guilty standard applied to a criminal act, the onus in a self-defense shooting is on the shooter to demonstrate that the shooting WAS indeed justifiable self-defense. In other words, in a self-defense case, the standard is "guilty unless shown innocent," and if the shooting is questionable, it is much more likely to swing against the person claiming self-defense than it is to swing in their favor.
OK, back to the new Florida law. The Florida law's primary effect was to eliminate the "duty to run away" provision, which was very subjective and had been abused by overzealous prosecutors; as I mentioned, most states don't have them, and a truly questionable scenario (you could have walked away in complete safety, but didn't) would fail points (a) and (c) anyway.
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» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Self-defense is a defense
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» The absence of that information in this article labels it as propaganda.
Posted by: Sojourner
» How gullible do you have to be ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part three) ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: Blade
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: Graeme
» RE: How gullible do you have to be (part two) ...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This Brooklyn law professor
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: bigremo
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Sigh...OK, time for self-defense-law 101...
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fearn on Aug 17, 2007 9:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» It refutes this...
Posted by: Sojourner
» This belongs above as a comment on Holland's comment.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Fair enough, but ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» My bias is, I don't like left wing propaganda any more than right wing propaganda.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ankhet on Aug 17, 2007 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gawsh knows, there are enough real problems in America that need your attention and that demand concerted action. (eg. get law enforcement agencies that use your tax money to do their job properly; education; health care; militarization of civil society; destruction of habeas corpus, free speech, human rights and dignity, labour laws, food&drug safety; environmental issues, etc etc etc..)
And stop with the juvenile, alarmist, imaginary, hypothetical scenarios already. There will always be the odd armed wacko acting on some wild delusion; that's not predictable, and making potential killers out of everybody - all armed all the time - creates more problems than it solves. Somehow the rest of the world (except where imperialist America is a significant presence) is doing just fine, not having to duck bullets on a daily basis in city squares, colleges, and malls, without all the citizens packing heat. People even say hello to each other on the street! Create a culture in which you can be civil and not fear each other as enemies, and in which you can even work together for the common good. That's the best protection of all.
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Posted by: eosrk on Aug 17, 2007 10:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I said, "yeah right", and hung up on them.
Next time it happens, I'll call .45 insetad, which is always on standby after that spoof!
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» RE: screw 911, .45 caliber responds better
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Aug 17, 2007 10:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or how about the next time a black kid in a poor neighborhood feels threatened by the police, let's see how well the law holds up for him when he pulls out a Glock and pumps a few into the Po-lice.
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» And in Florida you can plug his dumb ass brother too.
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: And in Florida you can plug his dumb ass brother too.
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Let's Invite Dubya Down To Florida
Posted by: ALANHESTER
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lamar on Aug 17, 2007 10:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This should be called the "Don't Challenge My Ego Or I'll Shoot Law."
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» RE: "Don't Challenge My Ego Or I'll Shoot Law"
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: "Don't Challenge My Ego Or I'll Shoot Law"
Posted by: MtnMig
Comments are closed-
Posted by: frank69 on Aug 17, 2007 12:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: jwc1480 on Aug 17, 2007 12:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I would rather have a pistol in my hand than a cop
on the phone".
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» RE: Guns are popular
Posted by: Upset
» RE: Guns are popular
Posted by: Redviper
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 17, 2007 2:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The first directive was for Pastors to preach to their congregations Romans 13, the often taken out of context bible passage that was used by Hitler to hoodwink Christians into supporting him, in order to teach them to "obey the government" when martial law is declared.
It was related to the Pastors that quarantines, martial law and forced relocation were a problem for state authorities when enforcing federal mandates due to the "cowboy mentality" of citizens standing up for their property and second amendment rights as well as farmers defending their crops and livestock from seizure.
It was stressed that the Pastors needed to preach subservience to the authorities ahead of time in preparation for the round-ups and to make it clear to the congregation that "this is for their own good."
Pastors were told that they would be backed up by law enforcement in controlling uncooperative individuals and that they would even lead SWAT teams in attempting to quell resistance.
I may not look at guns as a solution but if gun toters actually fight to restore the rest of America's freedom, then I'll applaud them. Right now, unfortunately, they're being distracted on the issue of "liberals taking away their guns nonsense" that they are ready to give up the rest of their freedom and their economic well being and livable environment. Worse, it is so hard to believe that the NRA and most of the gun lobbyists are siding with the coup instead of siding with the people to overthrow the coup.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 17, 2007 5:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I'd say the gun toters are scarier due to their lack of proper focus against the real culprits
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The guys in the White House scare me-
Posted by: Redviper
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Redviper on Aug 17, 2007 7:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Self-defense, as a personal right, has nothing to do the ill-conceived and downright stupid notion of preemptive war.
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» RE: I thought the left had gotten smarter on this issue
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I thought the left had gotten smarter on this issue
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I'm a chocolate and peanut butter kind of guy
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I thought the left had gotten smarter on this issue
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Correct. Self-defense has nothing to do with preemptive war
Posted by: Ripcord
Comments are closed-
Posted by: faultroy on Aug 17, 2007 7:40 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This law was necessary because as the article states, people are required to retreat and run in the face of armed robbery, car jackings, and even burglaries. There was an old joke that if a person was breaking into your home, and you shot him, you had better make sure that he fell into the house as opposed to outside of the home--otherwise, you could face murder charges.
The sad fact is that today's society is so litigitous that even someone comitting a felony was capable of suing a victim of a crime if they were injured. Then, there is the fact that a person was not even allowed to defend his own home. Contrary to this article, people do not have the right to shoot anyone they want. Just once, I would like to see Alternet Editors reign in their rogue writers.
The law merely states what the constitution of the United States has always articulated: People have a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness--and part of their right is to not be molested, attacked or robbed by anyone. And, if someone should do you and your property personal harm, you have the right to defend yourself.
The article's example of the former police officer shooting his neighbor and the neighbor stating that he was shot is cold blood is just another example of gross distortion. The ex officer would have to prove that he shot the neighbor where he said he shot him (i.e. by the inside of the door). There would have to be scuffle marks, something to indicate that the incident occurred as he said it did. (If he tried to get into the house as the ex officer stated, where are the finger prints on the door?)
That is the inherent problem with so much of the rhetoric and biased articles that Alternet continues to push--they are all incomplete.
No State Attorney would accept a person being shot without some corroborating evidence substantiating the fact that someone was shot under justifiable circumstances.
Please, let's keep it fair and balanced...leave the histrionics to the Feminists.
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» Never forget Rudy Ridge, and Waco Texas either!
Posted by: common intelligence
» Leave the histrionics to the Feminists?
Posted by: Ellie1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TerryS on Aug 17, 2007 9:06 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
public place, to "stand his or her ground" -
and to use deadly force if he or she feels
it necessary. It revokes a legal requirement
to try to avoid conflict."
For the last 50 years, a "stand your ground"
attitude has been pervasive in the movies and
television. In the movies, the hero, in the
end, always "stands his ground" and comes
out triumphant. It's a standard cliche, that
the hero wants to avoid conflict, but is
forced to act aggressively, and it is this
aggression which solves any and all problems.
After 50 years of viewers being taught that
violence *is* the solution, is it any
wonder that such laws would be very popular.
http://www.tvsmarter.com/documents/aggression.html
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» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: Stand Your Ground
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: YogiBear on Aug 17, 2007 9:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The state of Florida in the United States became the first to enact such a law on October 1, 2005. The Florida statute allows the use of deadly force when a person reasonably believes it necessary to prevent the commission of a 'forcible felony.' Under the statute, forcible felonies include 'treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.'
The Florida law authorizes the use of defensive force by anyone 'who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be.' Furthermore, under the law, such a person 'has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.' The statute also grants civil and criminal immunity to anyone found to have had such a reasonable belief."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law
That was easy!
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Posted by: common intelligence on Aug 17, 2007 10:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well now what do you think happened to all those children that where the off spring of those rapes? Hell, they of grew up in Florida,and the southern states!
So now. it is no wonder why these paranoid gun toters want to shoot first and carry on like pirates. They even have the retired New Yorkers living there scared enough to want to carry guns. Look George Bush is from there, Jeb, Trent Jabba-the-Lott. Hell everyone who wants these stupid gun toten rights is from the south. The whole east coast, where the military school and bases that perpetuate the war mind set is from there.
It's my guess if you could follow these peoples family trees back you'll find the blood of pirates runs through there veins.
Piracy in not such an acceptible trait to perpetuate if our society has any aspirations to truely want democracy, truth, justice,.........hell what am I talking about, that's not what our government wants at all. That wouldn't be good for fascist capitalism and conspicous consumption, Growth (till we pop).
The state of California is suppose to grow by 2/3 by 2050. The rest of the nation won't be far behind. Hell all these pirates will be dead and gone by then. Why should they give a rats ass? After all, it'll be primarily be brown skinned people anyway.
Well like the mercenaries (blackwater) code says, " kill'm all, Let God sort'm out".
What a sick example of humanity this country.
By the way, this isn't the United States any more. The pirate government has seen to that. Do don't worry about saving it. you all aready let'm have it.
Those commercials for the National Guard and such, about protecting "America". who are they trying to kid? Poor young kids are being told a propaganda story to fight for something they don't know anything about except what America use to be.
Terrorist? Hell the government is the terroist. never forget Waco Texas or Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City or that 911 was and is a complete cover-up of the truth.
Yah, if people never force the truth of 911 to come to the top and imprison Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rummy, the whole PNAC, Then forget protecting Amerca it's already gone. (Pelosi is seeing to that!)
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Aug 17, 2007 10:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Oh, Goody
Posted by: Redviper
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Posted by: lib3288 on Aug 18, 2007 2:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This is just great.
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: This is just great.
Posted by: MtnMig
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Posted by: Ripcord on Aug 18, 2007 4:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MINES AND MINING
CHAPTER 7
MINERAL RIGHTS IN STATE LANDS
47-702. RIGHT OF EXPLORATION AND WITHDRAWAL. (1) All lands belonging to
the state of Idaho in which the mineral deposits, excepting oil and gas and
geothermal resources, are owned by the state, and which have not been located,
leased, or withdrawn in accordance with the terms of this chapter,
are hereby
declared to be free and open to casual exploration.
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Posted by: Beagle17 on Aug 19, 2007 1:45 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Soon after the movie made waves, President Bush was seeking to make war - of the preemptive kind. It occurred to me then, and many times since, that this notion of preemption likely represents the answer to Moore's question.
What distinguishes Canadians from Americans more than anything else? It is not that Canadians are really any "nicer" than Americans, it is that Americans are born inside a culture of preemption. Shoot first; ask questions later.
Looking at the historical record shows clearly that GWB did not invent the concept of preemptive war. He merely named it honestly, or at least got the preemptive part right. All of America's recent wars have been held up as efforts to "defend" the country from harm. But why does this defense always seem to take place on foreign soil?
Interestingly, America is the country that, more than any other, holds up Christian virtue as support for the moral right of the U.S. government to act in this preemptive fashion. But, the core of Jesus' teaching, as I understand things, is better captured in the phrase, 'turn the other cheek' than in the phrase, 'shoot first'.
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» RE: Preemption is the answer to M. Moore's Bowling For Columbine question
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Preemption is the answer to M. Moore's Bowling For Columbine question
Posted by: Redviper
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Posted by: ALANHESTER on Aug 19, 2007 6:08 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: THIS WILL DO NOTHING....
Posted by: Redviper
» RE: THIS WILL DO NOTHING....
Posted by: winterinashes
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Posted by: MtnMig on Aug 19, 2007 10:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, a liberal democrat, this seems a strange thing to say but after having my house surrounded by violent felons threatening my life and that of my family, you too might give more thought to the right of civilians to defend themselves, especially when inept and corrupt police do not care to aid, in this case, what they called a “gringo”.
You might say that the solution is for the authorities to do their job and to protect citizens. I could not agree more but I am not willing to be a martyr, would you? I found that one of the individuals threatening me has been arrested and charged with four felonies including battery on a police officer and two illegal gun positions charges. In all four cases the District Attorney in Dade County (Miami) never pursued any of the changes. So what happens now? Do I sell my home while the market is down and lose tens of thousands of dollars? I’m not exactly rich either.
I am a law abiding citizen wishing to be in my home at peace. For the next two years this is exactly where I will stay and I am ready to defend my right to do so.
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» RE: Move beyond your knee-jerk reactions
Posted by: Redviper
» I suggest you set up a gun turret...
Posted by: may261989
» RE: I suggest you set up a gun turret...
Posted by: MtnMig
» RE: Move beyond your knee-jerk reactions
Posted by: winterinashes
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Posted by: jfyshie on Aug 20, 2007 8:50 AM
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» RE: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
Posted by: Axiom69
» Quote of the year
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
Posted by: winterinashes
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Posted by: fox1 on Aug 23, 2007 2:29 PM
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Posted by: winterinashes on Aug 25, 2007 10:21 AM
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» RE: ich vs. Poor - the class war is on
Posted by: fox1
» RE: ich vs. Poor - the class war is on
Posted by: winterinashes
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