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Why Progressives Should Care About Human Destiny in Space
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But perhaps not everybody knows that astronauts, too, have "understudies." If Mission Specialist No. 4 comes down with laryngitis a couple of days before launch, NASA doesn't want to scrub a flight after years of training by the crew and all the preparation that goes into every mission by thousands more on the ground.
The crew of the Challenger, which perished on Jan. 28, 1986, when the space shuttle disintegrated over the Atlantic Ocean 73 seconds after liftoff, had backups. Christa McAuliffe, who was selected to be the first "schoolteacher in space," was herself backed up by another schoolteacher. Her name was Barbara Radding Morgan, who taught elementary school in Fresno, Calif., and was then 34 years old.
On Wednesday evening, more than 21 years later, Ms. Morgan, now 55, went up on the space shuttle Endeavor as NASA's first "educator in space" to continue the mission that Ms. McAuliffe began two long decades ago. And she's doing it from the same place where McAuliffe sat -- in the middle of the lower deck.
Morgan and the rest of the Endeavor's seven-member crew will be spending about two weeks at the international space station to continue a construction project that will include replacing a gyroscope, attaching a new truss segment to the station and delivering 5,000 pounds of cargo.
Many of the educators who had competed with Morgan and McAuliffe to become the first teacher in orbit, were in Florida to watch the liftoff. Even June Scobee Rodgers, the widow of the Challenger's commander, was present for the launch.
"The Challenger crew -- my husband Dick Scobee, the teacher Christa McAuliffe -- they would be so happy with Barbara Morgan. They'd be excited for her, they'd be proud of her and her following through with the mission for the teacher to fly in space,'' said Scobee Rodgers, founding chairman of the Challenger Center for Space Science Education.
But why go to all the trouble to launch a now 55-year-old woman into the cosmos? What is the meaning of Barbara Morgan? As we approach our 50th anniversary as a spacefaring civilization (Sputnik was launched into orbit by the late USSR on Oct. 4, 1957), what is the space program for?
And why should progressives, with a full menu of more immediate causes on our activist plates, care about this one?
I heard one answer last month, in Kansas City, at the commemoration of the centennial, on 7/7/7, of the birth of perhaps the greatest apostle of human destiny in space that humanity has yet produced -- Robert A. Heinlein. His majestic Time Enough for Love told the life story of Lazarus Long, one of the most charismatic characters in 20th century literature. Setting the scene in the year 4272, Heinlein wrote, "We are no longer able to make a reasoned guess at the numbers of the Human Race, nor do we have even an approximate count of the colonized planets. The most we can say is that there must be in excess of two thousand colonized planets, in excess of five hundred billion people. The colonized planets may be twice that number, the Human Race could be four times that numerous. ... Pioneers care little about sending records to the home office; they are busy staying alive ..."
4272. That's not so far off. It's just a little bit longer in the one direction than Caesar and Christ are in the other. But that's what the voyages of Christa McAuliffe and Barbara Morgan are really about. All of us now alive, on behalf of all those not yet alive, have only just barely embarked on that endless expedition. That is the journey, for the Human Race, toward immortality.
What does immortality have to do with progressive values? Conservatives, most fundamentally, are about the idea that individuals ought to devote their blood, tears, toil and sweat to pursuing their own individual interests ... and leave it to other individuals to do the same. But if political progressives are about anything, we are about the idea that our lives are about something larger than ourselves. The idea that, as Michael Moore says in Sicko, we are not a "me society" but a "we society." The idea that we have obligations and responsibilities not just to ourselves and our immediate families, but also to the community of the whole.
And that means ultimately not only the human community of the present moment, but also the community of our remotest ancestors and our distant descendants as well. Space is ultimately about our duties to generations beyond our own. "The greatest good for the greatest number," said progressive giant Teddy Roosevelt, "applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those now alive form but an insignificant fraction."
A second core progressive value beckons to us from space as well. Progressives believe that our national citizenship must be accompanied by a global citizenship, that our allegiance to our nation stands alongside an allegiance to humanity, that our national patriotism must in the end be transcended by a planetary patriotism. We stand in the tradition of what the great psychologist Erik Erikson called an "all-human solidarity." We see the first glimmerings of what the political scientist Robert C. Tucker calls an "ethic of specieshood." We are the vanguard of what Voltaire called "the party of humanity."
And space has already shown that it can serve as perhaps the single greatest engine of human unity.
On July 20, 1979, on the tenth anniversary of humanity's first footsteps on the moon, Neil Armstrong was asked how he had felt as he saluted the flag up there. "I suppose you're thinking about pride and patriotism," he replied. "But we didn't have a strong nationalistic feeling at that time. We felt more that it was a venture of all mankind." (One wonders if any consideration was given, in the high councils of the Johnson and Nixon administrations, to having Armstrong and Aldrin plant not a flag of the United States on the moon, but a flag of Planet Earth.)
Many of the fortunate souls who have made it into Earth orbit (and the infinitesimal 27 who have left Earth orbit and ventured to the moon) have expressed remarkably similar sentiments.
"The first day or so we all pointed to our countries," said the Saudi astronaut Sultan bin Salman Al-Saud. "The third or fourth day we were pointing to our continents. By the fifth day, we were aware of only one Earth." "The Earth was small, light blue, and so touchingly alone," said the Russian astronaut Aleksei Leonov, "our home that must be defended like a holy relic." "From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty," said Edgar Mitchell, one of only 12 humans to have walked on the surface of another world. "You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter million miles out and say, 'Look at that, you son of a bitch.'"
This is why the late Carl Sagan claimed that spaceflight was actually subversive. Although governments have ventured into space, Sagan observed, largely for nationalistic reasons, "it was a small irony that almost everyone who entered space received a startling glimpse of a transnational perspective, of the Earth as one world."
Seeing our planet as a whole, apparently, enables one to see our planet as a whole.
Finally, space may someday deliver to us arguably the greatest progressive value of all. The ethic of human unity that space seems inevitably to engender may, down the road, ultimately engender permanent human peace as well.
Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels, widely considered the greatest science fiction series ever constructed, are set much further down the road than Time Enough for Love -- not 2200, but 20 or 25,000 years in the future. The Foundation's universe contains several million colonized star systems and several quadrillion human beings, so widely dispersed that anthropologists debate which among the millions was humanity's original sun. And yet, for all the extent, diversity and complexity of human affairs, humanity has managed to abolish war. The human race has forged itself into a single politically unified community -- what Asimov calls a "Galactic Empire." The unraveling of that community, and the reintroduction of war into human affairs, is the grand cataclysm that protagonist Hari Seldon and his compatriots, for seven epic novels, endeavor to prevent (or at least to mitigate).
How's that for something toward which we on the left can aspire? Progressives insist that it is within the power of the human imagination to create enduring universal peace. We maintain that there can be a next step in the social evolution of our species. In the spring of 2003, many of us demonstrated against a preemptive, unilateral, illegal and very unwise war, the consequences of which we can still only dimly foresee. But for all of our efforts in the past four years to "end the war," isn't our deepest aspiration actually to "end war"?
Bertrand Russell taught us that the greatest moral imperative was this: "One must care about a world one will never see." So in addition to all of our urgent work on all of our urgent struggles, progressives should consider joining and participating in the work of hardy and underappreciated space advocacy organizations like the Planetary Society, the National Space Society, the Mars Society and the Space Frontier Foundation.
Perhaps the single best line of the Heinlein Centennial was uttered to us on an enormous video screen, from Sri Lanka, by 90-year-old Arthur C. Clarke, when he said, "Robert Heinlein will be revered by future generations. If any."
Stephen Hawking, similarly, in remarks just before boarding his widely publicized zero-gravity airplane flight in April, said, "Life on Earth is at risk of being wiped out by a disaster, such as sudden global warming, nuclear war, a genetically engineered virus. ... I think the human race has no future if it doesn't go into space."
And the Royal Astronomer Martin Rees, of Cambridge University, in his chilling 2003 book Our Final Hour, surveyed the litany of macro-dangers facing humanity (some natural but most of our own making) -- asteroid impact, climate change, nuclear apocalypse, bioterror, nanotechnology spinning out of control, the enormous destructive potentials that can be unleashed today by just a few malevolent individuals. Then he delivered this astonishing verdict: "I think the odds are no better than 50-50 that our present civilization on Earth will survive to the end of the present century."
How such a forecast has failed to generate any political debate whatsoever -- among progressives or anyone else -- is surely a testament to the shallowness of our contemporary political conversation.
There are two responses that progressives might make to the challenges posed by Clarke, Hawking and Rees -- and to the responsibilities passed on to us by Teddy Roosevelt. One is to confront those challenges head on, to focus upon not only Iraq and impeachment and the issues of the hour, but also the issues of the century, and to endeavor over time to perhaps alter Rees' odds for the better. The other is to dedicate ourselves to the goal, however distant, of establishing the human race permanently beyond the cradle of its birth. First beyond our planet, then beyond our solar system, as we venture, slowly but inexorably, in tiny lifeboats afloat on an infinite sea, to live forever among the stars.
These twin undertakings, obviously, need not be mutually exclusive. After all, people who do everything possible to protect their health still take out life insurance policies. Unfortunately, the agendas of our politicians these days seem mostly about neither of these undertakings. The legacies of Christa McAuliffe and Barbara Morgan, educators and astronauts, seem quite obviously about both.
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Posted by: rue on Aug 11, 2007 2:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
although it may be true that those who have had the chance to see the earth from afar in person see the earth as a whole, it takes no stretch of the imagination to realize that as soon as people figure out how to exploit space exploration for the sake of a greasy buck, idealism will take a back seat as it always does.
how many kids could be fed with the money the US government spends on these trips to space? how many folks could have their health care taken care of?
this is not an anti-science rant - i believe science and exploration are important for the betterment of people in general. but let's have our priorities straight - from the moon, you can't see all the people starving.
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» disagree - great article!
Posted by: defrag
» It should be easy to see the Earth as a whole from anywhere
Posted by: FDPN
» That was Emerson's message 150 years ago.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Benefits of the space program that any progressive can love...
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Benefits of the space program that any progressive can love...
Posted by: Knowmad
» Exploitation and sustainability
Posted by: suprmark
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 11, 2007 4:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Neilium on Aug 11, 2007 4:19 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mate, the world is terrified of the usa for good reason, the kowtowers pretend to like Bush and his gang because fear is their only other option. the shuttle is wholly and soley us property to do their bidding and nothing else. Any one who really thinks we can do better on another planet .. ' id lock up anyone who thinks that it's even a possibility let alone desirable' is just a blind fool who has forgotten their responsibility to the ground under their feet. What we need to do is to ' Just Stop Doing!' and give this place a break.
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» RE: What's it all about?
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» "...created by an intelligence..."?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "...created by an intelligence..."?
Posted by: Neilium
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Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 4:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's like conservatives bitching about the money spent on Amtrak. In both cases, the money is a drop in the bucket of the budget. In both cases, the programs prevent a lot of worse problems.
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» Word
Posted by: pdxstudent
» A billion here, a billion there... what's the difference?
Posted by: eddie torres
» Eddie, see "Benefits of the space program" posts further down
Posted by: defrag
» RE: A billion here, a billion there... what's the difference?
Posted by: particle
» RE: A billion here, a billion there... what's the difference?
Posted by: superdan
» RE: It's such a cliche...
Posted by: moenbailey
» I agree about Amtrak...
Posted by: defrag
» We will be at the point where movies about space trips to mars cost the same as, er, going to mars.
Posted by: superdan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mwildfire on Aug 11, 2007 5:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Because we can't take one more step, beyond seeing the planet as a whole and humanity as a whole, to seeing life as a whole? because we substitute anthropocentrism for nationalism and thus we assume that the survival of humanity is a good thing no matter what?
If you have read the statements of the US Space Command, you will see that the comments above this one are not paranoid or "anti-American." The evidence is strong that the Star Wars "missile defense" effort now going forward is in fact intended to give those who control the US government first-strike capability. I suspect they are also working on a system to allow a man in a bunker in some undisclosed location to locate anyone percieved as an enemy, and then fry that person with a satellite-mounted laser, anonymously. Once the technology is in place--and I see no reason it isn't technologically possible--this cabal will have in their hands the means to that old dream, the dream of absolute power. Once a few activists in each region disappear in a puddle of grease... and then the first ones to protest or question this happening also disappear in a puddle of grease... there will be no further opposition.
In the face of this reality, it's irresponsible to say that humanity must surge into space, so that we can survive and spread even if we soon destroy our homeworld. The situation is a replica of the tale of recent human history: when two cultures collide and one is much wiser than the other, the one with wisdom and perspective is almost invariably wiped out by the other one, the "masculine" one, the one that has not been able to see beyond the root myth of civilization: the myth that it is possible for one to prosper at the expense of another. (In the short run and with a small perspective it IS possible, which is why the myth endures. But in the long run, robbing the world you live in means you live in an impoverished world). The last peaceable indigenous peoples are being destroyed by industrial greed and insatiable capitalism even as we discuss whether the human race must save itself from the destruction we visit on our own Mother, the planet that gave us birth.
So the answer is NO. We must NOT venture into space unless and until we pass the test; unless we find at last a way to change the reality that the ruthless rule. If we can survive this century without nuclear warfare, germ warfare, global climate change and/or other environmental catastrophes destroying us, if we can fend off global totalitarianism-- if we can somehow find a way to control and heal the worst among us rather than handing them the throne--then and only then, should we consider space an option. We are still in kindergarten and should not be grabbing the keys to the car.
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» Star wars looks like a billion dollar lemon that does not work.
Posted by: superdan
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Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au on Aug 11, 2007 5:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of the fortunate souls who have made it into Earth orbit (and the infinitesimal 27 who have left Earth orbit and ventured to the moon) have expressed remarkably similar sentiments.
You Americans never set foot on the moon. You couldn't do it then and you can't do it now. Nobody can. The French can't, the Russians couldn't and the Chinese can't. If you could, you'd be there now, looking for oil. You can't even do it today, let alone then, with technology the way it was. How did you do all the process control, with slide rules? And where did the data come from, guys reading dials and scribbling like fury? You see, microprocessors hadn’t been invented yet. Computers were mainframes, that took up an entire floor, with a fraction the power of any cheap desktop or laptop today, and those spacecraft had no computers on board! And computers are absolutely necessary to process the communication from the Earth and process the data to land the module safely on the moon and get it back into orbit behind the Saturn mothership to dock it. Docking didn’t begin until the latter seventies. Oh, there was something up there, all right, but it was nowhere near t he moon, nowhere near the van Allen belt and the radiation in space that would have burnt them to a crisp. A conspiracy all right! And the astronauts themselves simply don’t act like heroes, people who have pulled off the most spectacular thing mankind has ever done. They look away from the camera, or look at it too brazenly, and they avoid the tough questions. No doubt they’re thinking about all the money they got and about the safety of their grandchildren, and maybe even some old patriotic thoughts. Aldrin has been known to walk out of some moon landing celebratory meeting sobbing. They’re getting old, so the conspiracy may fall apart soon. It fact, it already has. Find that one-liner in Bill Clinton’s autobiography, would you, where he tells you that you never made it to the moon. And come back alive, that is. When the Chinese finally do, no doubt they will find a few rockets in smithereens with the remains of dead Americans and dead Russians.
Oh, and please spare me all the foam-at-the-mouth stuff, coming from hurt egos rather than from practical thinking, where you proffer some foo-foo thing or some scientific naiveté or physical impossibility and say that it shows that the “conspiracy theorists” are wrong. The Europeans have been asking for proof of those moon landings for years – how you solved the radiation problem, for example (didn’t someone recently come up with a material they thought would be suitable, finally, for radiation-proof space suits?) NASA’s response has been invariably not to respond. Don’t you Americans want to know the truth about this? Doesn’t it bother you that your ideas about yourselves and your posturings are becoming the laughing stock of the world? If the consequences weren’t so grim, that is. (My wife is American. She told me about that one-liner in Clinton's book.)
Robert_Hoogenboom (@ )leftfoot.com.au
Sydney, Australia
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» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: RaW
» Colony at Botany Bay, eh?
Posted by: sausage
» Botany Bay....?
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Botany Bay....?
Posted by: Ghoulman
» This, my friends, is a product of no fail education...
Posted by: sausage
» "Go ask a physics professor in Germany ..."
Posted by: sausage
» Why would we go back?
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: Neilium
» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: EncinoM
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Posted by: kwalla on Aug 11, 2007 8:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Moon conspiracy theorists: Put your money where your mouth is...
Posted by: superdan
» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Aug 11, 2007 7:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The system is out of balance, and anything that contributes to the condition is a problem. Space travel in its present form has tremendous costs in environmental damage and resource depletion, while it is entirely elective. This makes it expendable.
We should not send another manned vehicle into space until we have obtained a sustainable, balanced system here on earth. In the best case that would put off consideration of the next launch for generations. Then we should make the kind of trade-offs that every family faces at the kitchen table. If we are going to send rockets into space, what will we give up to do it? In the meantime, I will keep reading science fiction, and try to avoid confusing it with reality.
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» RE: Fiction is fun, but progressives should stick with reality.
Posted by: sculptor
» A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» So who decides?
Posted by: sculptor
» Spot-On
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: A great analogy
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: jaiagreen
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: sculptor
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: sculptor
» But of course!
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: But of course!
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: But of course!
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: jaiagreen
» RE: Fiction is fun, but progressives should stick with reality.
Posted by: Neilium
» Your heading is an oxymoron
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Earthian on Aug 11, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The alternative to the Daley vision is bleak
Posted by: katspace
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Posted by: lpugliese on Aug 11, 2007 9:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Arguing that we should fix our doomed environment before evolving to a better space is tantamount to arguing that our ancestors should have fixed the conditions in England, Europe or elsewhere before deciding to emmigrate to the New World - or that ancient sea life should have remained in the sea, rather than crawl up onto the land.
And possibly the MOST important point to anyone who does care about the future of our species- Life is NOT infinite here. The sun WILL burn out-.And make no mistake about it, we do not know when.
Thanks, Tad- brilliant!
LP
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» RE: Entropy
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» Our biology is weak and fragile, yes...however
Posted by: FDPN
» RE: Our biology is weak and fragile, yes...however
Posted by: cpotter
» RE: I don't take credit for these ideas
Posted by: cpotter
» RE: ntropy
Posted by: cpotter
» YOU WROTE THE ANSWER!
Posted by: Neilium
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Posted by: bar5608 on Aug 11, 2007 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ???
Posted by: cpotter
» RE: ??? I might be able to straighten you out here mate.
Posted by: Neilium
» RE: Reflector in space and other comments
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: ???
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: ??? Thats really a stupid question
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: ??? Space-based solar power
Posted by: oleson
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Posted by: AuntSally on Aug 11, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing in science right now suggests we will ever have the capability to colonize other star systems. Perhaps this will change, but NOTHING about our understanding of physics suggests that it will. That leaves our own solar system and, we know for sure, colonizing any other body in this solar system, from the stand point of providing a haven for humans, is ludicrous. Earth is the place where humans are best suited to live. So I have an idea - let's live here!
Dedicating resources to space exploration makes sense for it's inspirational value. Doing so for survival makes no sense and, in my view, is counterproductive. We are more likely to work out our problems if we don't have a ridiculous perception in our heads that hey, if we trash this planet, we can always scam another one. No. This planet is IT. No other choices. Talk of creating havens on other planets is not consistent with science and counterproductive to caring for the one home we've got.
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» Human bodies are trapped on Earth, so cast them off...
Posted by: FDPN
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Posted by: fungus on Aug 11, 2007 10:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Hubble Space Telescope and other research on the universe.
BUT- we are ignorant about the planet around it. People are less and less in contact with species and ecosystems aaround them, with the problems that life is facing and that the impacts ecological crises will have on human life. If we really want to promote peace and equality, we must focus on changing our way of life so we can move more towards a balance with the Earth. Ecological destruction impacts more on poor people than on affluent people, and there are lots of reasons to believe that it will contribute to future wars. And we need to work to protect endangered and threatened species - it is simply the right thing to do.
Space travel is a nice fantasy. I am something of a Star Trekker and all, but I really believe that we need to focus on knowing and protecting the earth at this point. If we can come to enough of a sense of humility and justice to work out our relationship with this planet and its species, including other humans, maybe we'll be ready for space travel.
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Posted by: sausage on Aug 11, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ronald Reagan wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack, but he was smart enough to not take the fall for the Challenger disaster. Reagan wanted McAuliffe up in space in time for his January 28, 1986 State of the Union speech. So in spite of clear warnings from both Morton Thiokol and NASA engineers, that the O-rings in the Morton Thiokol solid-fuel booster rocket could fail in the cool, early winter morning Florida temperatures, 31 degess F at launch time. Pressure came all the way down from the White House to Morton Thiokol management for an on-schedule launch. Then the compliant Rogers Commission shuffled the blame off on NASA.
Reagan was then able to shift fudning away from manned space exploration to his bogus, money guzzling "Star Wars" initiative.
We're still shoveling money into Star Wars while manned space flight is almost dead. Look at Dubya's proposal for a manned Mars mission. Instead of the intelligent von Braunian vision of, manned space shuttle to permanent orbiting space station; space station as launch pad to found lunar colonies; lunar colonies have manufacturing facilities for construction of deep space vehicles to explore Mars and beyond. Dubya's proposal is back to giant booster rockets and capsules. That's like inventing the wheel all over again.
If we want to save humanity we have to get off the planet!
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» RE: onald Reagan murdered the future
Posted by: Neilium
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Posted by: FDPN on Aug 11, 2007 10:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No such thing in this universe. If you've read all this other stuff then you've probably read the Asimov short story "The Last Question." Last Question
Wherein the question of, "is there a way to prevent the heat death of the universe?" is explored.
Further, there will be no human beings should we become sufficiently advanced technologically. Our bodies are slow, fragile, and worst of all - mortal. We'll be autonomous computer AI's simulating some of what it used to mean to be human. As for the Earth? Disassembled into solar energy collecting computational matter (ala a Dyson's sphere).
Dyson Sphere
Biology is a spring board into the next stage in evolution and nothing more. The matter locked up in plants, trees, and water can be put to better uses when humanity is no longer tied to its biology.
Finally (and most importantly) who are we to be so arrogant to assume that humanity is something worth preserving? Look at us! We're nothing but violent apes fighting over shiny pieces of metal and glittering rocks! Nothing humanity has shown me convinces me that I should be concerned about its ultimate survival and proliferation throughout space.
That's why I do not care about environmentalism or space exploration, the sooner humanity goes extinct the better. All space will give us is more governments (read: the wealthy elite, all governments represent the elite) arbitrarily declaring dominion over the moon, planets, and asteroids. Then we'll have even more ridiculous things to send our young men and women off to die over (guess what?! you just got drafted into the U.S. Space Force, time to go fight the Russian led E.U. - never mind those rumors of dying a horrible, horrible death when your ship depressurizes...are you a patriot or not?! SIR YES SIR!).
Anyway, the funny thing is that most Sci-Fi oriented people genuinely believe they are a special development in human history.
Guess what? People have been dreaming of immortality and god like status for thousands of years and they even came up with some nice fairy tales to that effect dating all the way back to Egypt. Such arrogant monkeys driven by their biology to seek that which they can never have.
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» Yeah, yeah, let's all get ready for the Rapture...
Posted by: sausage
» Can you expand on this comment? I have no idea what you're trying to say to me. n/t
Posted by: FDPN
» You're a fraud
Posted by: sausage
» Your sparse comments are not adding value to the conversation
Posted by: FDPN
» There's an old saying among us unwashed...
Posted by: sausage
» NO ONES GETS OUT OF HERE ALIVE DAMNED IT.
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» Thank you for your insightful comment. n/t
Posted by: FDPN
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Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 11, 2007 10:56 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In truth, we must cope with information denied to earlier generations. We know the date when life must end on this planet. 1) Our short-term threats are a billion times greater. 2) Anyone who imagines that a well-nourished Earth-borne civilization a billion years from now would not know more than we know is stupid. 3) The only ones who want to rush into space are those who make their living at it; we can be vicitimized by our experts.
Our experts get a helping hand from everyone who believes the Earth is disposable. Space exploration and cherishing life on Earth are not necessarily incompatible. But given the choice between fantasy and work, sloth usually wins. Science is a tool not a toy or an idol. We must put away our toys and idols and get to work.
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» This kind of attitude is part of the problem, not the solution
Posted by: sausage
» RE: This kind of attitude is part of the problem, not the solution
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 11, 2007 11:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: punabear on Aug 11, 2007 11:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Aug 11, 2007 11:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm just lifting this from a particular post because it embodies a sentiment repeated in the comments. This reactionary knee-jerk is utterly beside the point. It's not unexpected, since what it pre-supposes is that this extremely under-funded agency is a positive road-block to a better world here on Earth. That's pure batshit horse-cobble. Were it true that the relatively minor nixing of the space program would have a positive net effect on issues of poverty and the environment, then it would have been done decades ago.
The reason that the powers that be allow the space program to persist (mind you, in shambles) is because the people are then alienated enough from it that it can always be looked at with confused contempt---all the promise, all the lies. This is easily given a "progressive" spin by hedging it as an issue of poverty- or environmental-politics. All the while, capitalist production diverts human productivity away from these very issues---hundreds of billions of American Dollars worth every year, I'm sure. When the activists come scratching at the legs of the economic powers, they have a host of distractions to which they point as "the real problem," such as the pointless endevours of those silly people at Cape Canaveral.
This "either you fuck the earth by sending people into space or you save it by staying" business is the kind of stuff 18 and 19 year olds pick apart in 100-level philosophy classes on critical thinking.
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» The ecology movement got a big boost from the space program.
Posted by: sausage
» RE: False Dichotomy
Posted by: DaBear
» Agreed.
Posted by: Coleman
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Posted by: Janet4784 on Aug 11, 2007 11:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Aug 11, 2007 12:27 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's the fantasy of technical progress. One where science solves all of our problems and we go out into the stars like the gods our tech has made us. That's wildly arrogant... I can't agree with this article. Colonizing far planets and moons might be practical for our species a few thousand years from now, but currently we really need to stop destroying the world we are on. The race to the Moon was more about creating intercontinental missiles than getting to the moon. More about war than the fantasy of technical progress. Just as Heinlein was a cheerleader for an adventurous future (and dubious future societies) so were we all back then. We really believed in "progress".
But it's not so. We live in a society far removed from such noble will. Outer Space is filled with military junk where Space Command in the US is quickly gaining oversite, and NASA will soon become a mere contractor.
There is a different imperative we need, I believe - to survive as a species we need to have real science protecting us from the wilds of interstellar life. Right now we have, I believe, all of two scientists looking our for rocks called "planet killers". I'll let you figure out if two scientists is enough for that job. We are only barely getting even data regarding the cycles of the Sun. Galactic mysteries abound (we really hope that gamma blast did hurt, even if it did seem to have the combined energy read of the entire Galaxy. Yikes)... but colonizing? Let's just try to survive first.
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 11, 2007 1:23 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"False Dichotomy" says it best when the commentor points out the absurd logic of trying to claim something which is ultimately interconnected can be solved by only focusing on one part to the exclusion of the whole. That's brilliant progressive educated thought. That sort of brilliance ought to temper the cynicism, but in the objectors to progressives caring about space programs, their shunting their brilliance in favor of their cynicism and that's why WE ARE LOSING TO THE NEOCONS, people! Hello!
Progressives very much need to be concerned about humanity's, and frankly the U.S.A.'s, endeavors into space (including low earth orbit, which today passes for "spaceflight"). We should be incharge of promoting and funding it. What better more practical way to destroy the military industrial complex than to reallocate her funding to peaceful space-endeavors? Don't think for one minute that the challenge of keeping the soldier cultists out of the space program and such a reallocation of funds won't be a full time job for progressives. Using "well we suck at stopping them from invading other countries here on earth" as an excuse for not caring about space programs is assinine. Because we suck at stopping fascists on our home turf means we have to get better at stopping fascists period! Is space expensive, hard, tech-heavy, unsustainable? Maybe. Sure. No, it's not. Just because something is hard or challenging, or expensive for that matter, means that it is something progressives shouldn't deal with. By that logic we should drop caring about our military in Iraq because we've got neocon neo-nazis running amok in Kansas. It's cheaper and more poragmatic to fight the Klan in PA than it is to bother with Iraq. Does that make Iraq off limits for progressives? Like hell!
Those that illogically moan, 'we can't take care of earth, so we shouldn't be in space' are confusing their otherwise healthy cynicism with the reality of the situation. Yes we are in a war against soldier-cultists, fascists and a media hologram, a fight that is literally to the death. But you cannot wage a campaign to save your life with just one intervention or by simply resolving one issue at a time. We'll bleed out on the table (and we ARE) under that sort of stoopid.
Progressives have to be grown ups and hold ALL the lighting bolts in both hands. Stop being cowards and grow up... tech is real, space it there, fascism is in DC and every state house in the union. It's either a progressive led spacefaring species together as a whole of humanity or a militaristic soldier-cult empire run by giant corporations. Do you really think the latter will happen if progressives are fully involved? It certainly will if progressives aren't. Tad is right, and if you disagree, you need a serious slap upside the head to get a clue. Wake up and stop wailing the earth might not be round afterall... it is, so deal with it.
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Posted by: fearn on Aug 11, 2007 2:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Makes much more sense than the current program!
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Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 2:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. The most accurate topographical map of the Earth. This data is used to develop safer navigation techniques and better communication systems.
2. Ultraviolet protection suits for people with rare intolerance to UV light, known xeroderma pigmentosum.
3. Heart pump based on technology of space shuttle's fuel pumps. It's two inches long, one inch in diameter, and weighs less than four ounces.
4. Efficient autos and planes benefiting from NASA wind tunnel and aerodynamic expertise.
5. New metal alloys based on research for the space station program.
6. Thermal protection blankets used in everything from fire fighters suits to survival gear for cold environments.
7. Robots and robotic software with wide-ranging uses that include auto-assembly plants, hazardous material handling, monitoring in dangerous environments, distribution and packaging facilities, etc.
8. Lightweight composite materials that benefit cars, airplanes, camping gear, etc.
9. Perfect protein crystals grown in zero gravity; used for more pure pharmaceutical drugs, foods and an assortment of other crystalline-based products including insulin for diabetes patients.
10. Better understanding of the Earth and its environmental response to natural and human-induced variations such as air quality, climate, land use, food production as well as monitoring quality of our oceans and fresh water.
11. Commercial space communication systems for personal phones, computers, video transmissions, global positioning satellite systems, etc.
12. Improvements in energy use efficiency.
13. More responsible use of air and water in private and commercial buildings.
14. Automated maintenance functions for buildings and new lower-cost building construction techniques.
15. Smoke detectors for homes and commercial buildings.
16. Air purification systems used to by hospitals to provide pure oxygen for patients.
17. High-bandwidth and optical communications systems.
18. Technology for cordless tools such as drills, shrub trimmers and rechargeable flashlights.
19. Growth of zeolite crystals that have the potential to reduce the cost of petroleum and to store new types of fuels like hydrogen, which is abundant and pollution-free. This technology could be used in hydrogen-powered cars.
20. Fire-fighting systems that battle blazes with a fine mist, rather than environmentally harmful chemicals.
21. Sunglasses that block certain types of light - blue, violet, and ultraviolet - that could hurt the eyes. These sunglasses block the hazardous light, while allowing light that is good for vision to pass through the lens.
22. Solar power collection.
23. Air filtration systems that can kill all types of harmful bacteria - even anthrax -- and remove allergens from the air with better than 90 percent efficiency.
24. Ultralight solar concentrators that gather power from the Sun and efficiently convert it into electrical power. Applications for this technology on Earth are limitless.
25. Water purification methods using ions (an atom or group of atoms carrying a positive or negative electrical charge). Used in water filtering systems to remove lead, chlorine, bad taste and odor. Newer purification systems also remove contaminants such as perchlorate and nitrate.
26. "Power Pads" to cushion a horse's hooves, protecting against injuries and helping ease discomfort associated with brittle hooves or arthritis.
27. Disposable diapers. [Note: I agree, this one is not generally considered a benefit by progressives.]
28. Devices for collection and real-time analysis of blood, and other bodily fluids, without the need for centrifugation. Huge potential for hospitals and for remote units to monitor individuals with health problems.
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» RE: Benefits of the space program... Part 1
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 2:20 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
30. Computer-aided tomography (CATScan) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) for imaging the body and its organs.
31. Light-emitting diodes used in photodynamic therapy. These diodes are used in a form of chemotherapy that kills cancerous tumors.
32. Infrared sensors used in hand-held optical sensor thermometers. These devices can measure temperature in the ear canal in two seconds or less.
33. Devices used to diagnose and treat patients suffering head injury, stroke, chronic dizziness and disorders of the central nervous system.
34. Compact laboratory instruments for hospitals and doctor offices that analyze blood in 30 seconds what once took 20 minutes.
35. Land mine removal using flare device and leftover fuel donated from NASA.
36. Technology which allows vehicles to transmit a signal back to a home base. Used to track and reassign emergency and public works vehicles; also track vehicle operations such as taxis, armored cars and vehicles carrying hazardous cargo. Now used to recover stolen vehicles.
37. Cutters using small explosive charges used by emergency rescue personnel to quickly extract accident victims.
38. Image-processing technology used remove defects due to image jitter, image rotation and image zoom in video sequences. Used by law enforcement agencies to improve crime-solving videos; doctors in medical imaging; scientific applications and even home video cameras.
39. Gas leak-detection system used by Ford in natural gas-powered car.
40. Method of labeling products with invisible and virtually indestructible markings - used on electronic parts, pharmaceuticals and livestock -- in fact it could be used on just about anything.
41. Fire resistant foam used as thermal and acoustical insulation in aerospace, marine and industrial products. Also used as for fire barriers, packaging and other applications requiring either high-temperature or very low-temperature insulation. Used by Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and Airbus for for major weight savings in aircraft.
42. Hand-held camera which firefighters use to pinpoint the hotspots of wildfires.
43. Safer soldering base for jewelers using torches in jewelry assembly. Based on heat-shield tiles of shuttle instead of hazardous asbestos bases previously used.
44. Quick-connect fasteners used by firefighters and nuclear power-plant repair technicians.
45. Game-controlling joystick for computers and entertainment systems.
46. Spray lube used for rust prevention; loosening corroded nuts; cleaning and lubricating guns and fishing reels; and lubricating and reducing engine friction.
47. World-wide television broadcasts.
48. Home insulation system which provides significant savings in home heating and cooling costs - uses technology of aluminum heat shield developed for Apollo spacecraft.
49. Laser technology used in artery catheters to spot areas of blockage and fire short bursts of laser beams to vaporize them - a "cool" laser providing thousands of patients with an alternative to heart bypass surgery.
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Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 2:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
51. "Smart" forceps made of composite material, with embedded fiber optics. These obstetrical forceps allow doctors to measure the amount of pressure being applied to an infant's head during delivery.
52. Small pill-shaped transmitters Used to monitor intestinal activity; blood pressure and temperature of infants still inside the womb; body functions of athletes and high-stress professionals such as firefighters and soldiers.
53. Technology to quickly arrange and analyze human chromosomes and detect genetic abnormalities that could lead to disease in infants.
54. Image processing software used in dermatology analysis to "decode" the shadow patterns and provided accurate heights and depths.
55. Roofs based on moonsuits that look stiff, but are flexible and expand in heat and contract in cold. Used as covering of malls, stadiums and new airports like Denver International.
56. Padding in helmets, shin guards, chest protectors and aircraft seating.
57. Golf balls with greater accuracy and distance.
58. Lightning protection systems for aircraft.
59. Windshear detection and warning system for aircraft.
60. Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TACS) now used by virtually all passenger aircraft.
61. Monitoring system which scans important documents at certain times and compares the differences between the images. The system detects changes in contrast, shape and other features. Used by museums and the National Archives to monitor historic documents and plan a way to stop any damage.
62. Landsat imagery to discover unknown archeology sites; reveal ancient coastlines; manage the harvesting of fish in the world’s oceans; calculate how well crops are doing, etc.
63. Robotic mother pigs which keep piglet formula (milk) cool until it is needed then heats and delivers the right amount at feeding time.
64. Improved spray nozzles for crop dusters.
65. New breathing system for firefighters made up of a face mask, frame and harness, warning device, and air bottle. Weighs one-third less than old gear.
66. Virtual reality simulators for medical operations, flight training, truck driving, etc.
67. Hydroponics used by vegetable farmers to grow crops without soil.
68. Fluorometer instrument used to monitor plankton in the world's oceans. Instrument measures amount of glow given off by plankton and other marine life that consume sunlight in their photosynthesis process. Much of the world’s oxygen comes from plankton.
69. Oil spill cleanup using beeswax microcapsules. The beeswax balls absorb oil and keep water out. Absorbed oil is digested by microorganism enzymes inside the ball. When the balls get full of digested oil, they explode and release environmentally safe enzymes, carbon dioxide and water.
70. Software to match and track whales.
71. DirectTV.
72. Satellite radio.
73. Fire-Resistant Aircraft Seats.
74. "Cool suit" which helps to improve the quality of life of multiple sclerosis patients.
75. Pacemaker that can be programmed from outside the body.
76. Instruments to measure bone loss and bone density, without penetrating the skin.
77. Implant for delivering insulin to diabetics that provides more precise control of blood sugar levels and frees diabetics from the burden of daily insulin injections.
78. Device for growing ovarian tumors so that tumors can be studied outside the body, without harm to the patient.
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» RE: Benefits of the space program... Part 3
Posted by: EJW
» Yeah, but... where's the Tang?
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Yeah, but... where's the Tang?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Yeah, but...
Posted by: particle
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Posted by: NumberSix on Aug 11, 2007 2:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Far more cynical than me, his point was that the entire moon program was a lovely way to hide in plain sight the real reason why we needed that grade of technology.
"See, Ike had a baby when Sputnik was cruising way up over New York. He needled his pals, like, how long before Uncle Ivan can send up a warhead? So, the entire program was a smokescreen for getting the hottest stuff to play nuclear chess, sir."
True? I am not sure, but having been part of aerospace, I've seen the technology since Mercury One go from B-17's to B-2's, kids. True, what rests, currently, in the silos, under the wings of planes, in the subs is all part of that boost we got from Apollo....or was the whole idea all along, one wonders?
"So, Kennedy's speech......."
"Smoke and mirrors to sell the public on an arms race."
Such would be lovely, noble, beautiful to really think we did the space thing for the very reasons of James T Kirk ("...to seek out new worlds..."), but having seen the way things have gone since Mercury, I am no longer that sure. Perhaps man is not ready for the final frontier, as he is too paranoid and too committed to his own doomsday.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 11, 2007 2:42 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do we want to become a species that just goes from one planet to another -draining it of all natural resouces and poisoning it -and then moving on to the next victim?
(Remember the Aliens in the movie Independence Day?-Do we really want to evolve into THAT?)
We have starving children in this world. Every day thousands more die. If we do meet some Aliens-what ON EARTH are we going to say to them? It only cost us 100 million children to get this far?
Our world is sick and it is OUR fault.
Until we can get our own act together, clean up our own mess, and take care of our own planet-we don't have any business going anywhere else....
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» Oh, Boo Hoo
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Oh, Boo Hoo-what grade are you in?
Posted by: WitchyNy
» A College Senior
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: A College Senior
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: A College Senior
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: OK-
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: MartinBachelor
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: EJW on Aug 11, 2007 3:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I too was in aerospace for a time and every day I thought about how wonderful our world could be if all that brain power was put to better use. Not only in the space program, but in energy technology, ecology renewal technology and methods, in all the fields we need to develop to save the planet and humankind.
I am in favor of going into space - mostly so we have something better to do then killing each other. Mankind needs challenges and challenges with real risk attached to feel human - we are expplorers and warriors to our very core; we need to fight to live. We used to fight the environmentment - can't do that anymore. We need new challenges, new fights, new hopes so that we can move on and stop killing each other.
Weapons in space - we may some day need them for the good of all.
Science is our best hope of survival. Science is the tool that a higher power gave us to be fruitful. Science is our best weapon against fear.
Science does not negate faith - it proves it. It is the best way to prove our faith. Science tests us every day to explore ethics and morality.
It is not a question of one thing or the other. Science tells us that the answer is both. Remember Schrodinger's Cat - it is both alive and dead at the same time. Time to move beyond Black and White thinking and become something new.
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» Science and religion
Posted by: Neilium
» RE: Science and religion
Posted by: EncinoM
» I am not impressed with "faith" as a path to morality.
Posted by: superdan
» RE: Some Points to Consider
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: eosrk on Aug 11, 2007 4:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the same will happen for deep space travel. someone whom of the same cloth, and it might come from an poor person whom had to come up with wild ideas to survive and the ideas work.
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» What makes you think that? This isn't 1900 buddy.
Posted by: FDPN
» RE: What makes you think that? This isn't 1900 buddy.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The Wrights were engineers....!
Posted by: NumberSix
» RE: it's already happening
Posted by: oleson
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Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 11, 2007 7:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But that’s not all. The moon is full of HELIUM 3, an isotope of Helium useful for a clean type of fusion. It is exceedingly rare on the earth:
“Researchers and space enthusiasts seehelium 3 as the perfect fuel source: extremely potent, nonpolluting, withvirtually no radioactive by-product. Proponents claim its the fuel ofthe 21st century. The trouble is, hardly any of it is found on Earth. But there is plenty of it on the moon.
Society is straining to keep pace withenergy demands, expected to increase eightfold by 2050 as the world populationswells toward 12 billion. The moon just may be the answer.
"Helium 3 fusion energy may be thekey to future space exploration and settlement," said Gerald Kulcinski,Director of the Fusion Technology Institute (FTI) at the University ofWisconsin at Madison.
Scientists estimate there are about1 million tons of helium 3 on the moon, enough to power the world for thousandsof years. The equivalent of a single space shuttle load or roughly 25 tonscould supply the entire United States' energy needs for a year, accordingto Apollo17 astronaut and FTI researcher Harrison Schmitt.”
These are the surprise results of orbiters sent to the moon (Clementine, launched 1994, then Lunar Prospector, launched 1998) and mars (Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, and two Mars Exploration Rovers) and are the reasons Bush announced a lunar and martian space program in 2004 (?). Interesting that water ice and Helium 3 are each useful as fuel, like oil.
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» I'd hate to see them misuse fusion for nuclear attacks.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I'd hate to see them misuse fusion for nuclear attacks.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Where in his post did he say anything about banning nuclear fusion?
Posted by: EncinoM
» Take your own advice. That line you quoted doesn't mean what you think it means. nm
Posted by: FDPN
» Don't put the cart before the horse.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» No, Nasa has not identified water ice on the moon.
Posted by: superdan
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Posted by: dzen on Aug 12, 2007 10:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I'm concerned, the high point of the space program was the images from our planets and their moons that the Voyagers would send back every few months.
Until America demonstrates that it has enough basic competence to do something like provide health care for its children, or maintain a sane level of energy consumption, there's no reason to believe that the space program can become anything more than what it is today, a financial black hole to benefit the defense industry.
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» Therein Lies that Subversiveness
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: The US isn't mature enough for a space program
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 12, 2007 3:04 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nevertheless, (as hinted at here) some people who should know better still speak of space colonization as a cure for overpopulation. Scientists have already debunked the ludicrous notion that colonizing space will further enable human overbreeding, so let's not delude ourselves with that fantasy.
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» WHAT???
Posted by: WitchyNy
» As if YOU understand chaos theory. Or read the link I posted.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Way off friend.
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Way off friend...and to Pat.
Posted by: WitchyNy
» So astrology is more than hocus-pocus, is it? Here's how you can make $1,000,000 proving it!
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Way off friend. -- So why are YOU avoiding Randi's $1,000,000 offer?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: Libertine on Aug 12, 2007 6:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Planets capable of supporting life are a rare thing in our universe, and ours is suffering from years of pollution as indicated by global warming.
It is the birthplace and home of humanity; of every human being that has ever lived until the present time. We are all in the same boat together: Americans and Iraqis, liberals and conservatives, terrorists and pacifists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, black, white and asian, men and women, and every other category of human on Earth.
Viewed in this way, all the petty things that divide us and seem to matter so much to us in our short lives on this planet don't really amount to hill of beans in the long run. The sooner we all learn we're all in this together and cooperate to save our planet from destruction and stop concentrating on the minuscule things that divide us, the better off we'll be.
Before anything else, we are all citizens of Earth first.
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Posted by: Don on Aug 12, 2007 6:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even though a little bit of scientific investigation was done on the side during our visits to the moon, the Apollo missions were more a global publicity stunt to impress the world with the fact that we could beat the Russians to the moon, than a real scientific expedition. As soon as we demonstrated to the world that we had accomplished it, the rest of the missions were cancelled. Of course, we had more important things to spend our money on in those days - VietNam for example.
Who would have even conceived that when man first set foot on the moon in 1969, we would just say "ok we done it!", and that 40 years we would never have returned.
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Posted by: GradientConsequence on Aug 13, 2007 8:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What has changed? Our efforts are still time/space bound. We are still delaying the inevitable. The fact is, we will never know the universe via a dense matter vehicle; space shuttle or human body.
What is the solution? Change the very nature of our technology from heavy to light, for as long as we remain heavy, we will never be LIGHT. Once again; so long as we are heavy, we will never be LIGHT (...hint).
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» RE: What is Technology?
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: What is Technology?
Posted by: GradientConsequence
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Posted by: Darrell Kern on Aug 14, 2007 10:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep asking yourselves this question over and over. Because if you think the power elite are gonna sit next to you on the space shuttle you are sadly mistaken.
I say give NASA not another dime.
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Posted by: Sum Won on Aug 15, 2007 1:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Robotic space exploration probably costs many times less than body piercings, etc., etc.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
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Posted by: joe_ave on Aug 20, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The space program is one of the few things we do that isn't in response to some perceived problem. It's a societal expression of positive human traits like curiosity and the desire to explore, and as such is worth supporting. (I wonder how many space program detractors would favor the elimination of that 'useless' government monetary suckhole, the National Endowment for the Arts? Sure, the monetary scale is different, but the principle is the same. That NEA money could feed a definite, calculable number of starving human beings.) We can't be all 'work' and no 'play'. I'm in complete agreement with the false dichotomy arguments posted here. We can work on our problems at the same time we engage in 'frivolous' things like space exploration and artistic expression.
Scale back--WAY back-- our out-of-control military spending-- make our Department of Defense truly about DEFENSE-- and I'll consider supporting a scaleback of the space program.
Meanwhile, hurricane Dean bears down on the Cayman Islands. Just HOW did we know of Dean's existence and projected path well before it ever made landfall? HOW did we manage to warn the people in its path DAYS in advance and minimize property damage and loss of life? Hmmm....
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Posted by: rue on Aug 11, 2007 2:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
although it may be true that those who have had the chance to see the earth from afar in person see the earth as a whole, it takes no stretch of the imagination to realize that as soon as people figure out how to exploit space exploration for the sake of a greasy buck, idealism will take a back seat as it always does.
how many kids could be fed with the money the US government spends on these trips to space? how many folks could have their health care taken care of?
this is not an anti-science rant - i believe science and exploration are important for the betterment of people in general. but let's have our priorities straight - from the moon, you can't see all the people starving.
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» disagree - great article!
Posted by: defrag
» It should be easy to see the Earth as a whole from anywhere
Posted by: FDPN
» That was Emerson's message 150 years ago.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Benefits of the space program that any progressive can love...
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Benefits of the space program that any progressive can love...
Posted by: Knowmad
» Exploitation and sustainability
Posted by: suprmark
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Aug 11, 2007 4:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Neilium on Aug 11, 2007 4:19 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mate, the world is terrified of the usa for good reason, the kowtowers pretend to like Bush and his gang because fear is their only other option. the shuttle is wholly and soley us property to do their bidding and nothing else. Any one who really thinks we can do better on another planet .. ' id lock up anyone who thinks that it's even a possibility let alone desirable' is just a blind fool who has forgotten their responsibility to the ground under their feet. What we need to do is to ' Just Stop Doing!' and give this place a break.
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» RE: What's it all about?
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» "...created by an intelligence..."?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "...created by an intelligence..."?
Posted by: Neilium
Comments are closed-
Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 4:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's like conservatives bitching about the money spent on Amtrak. In both cases, the money is a drop in the bucket of the budget. In both cases, the programs prevent a lot of worse problems.
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» Word
Posted by: pdxstudent
» A billion here, a billion there... what's the difference?
Posted by: eddie torres
» Eddie, see "Benefits of the space program" posts further down
Posted by: defrag
» RE: A billion here, a billion there... what's the difference?
Posted by: particle
» RE: A billion here, a billion there... what's the difference?
Posted by: superdan
» RE: It's such a cliche...
Posted by: moenbailey
» I agree about Amtrak...
Posted by: defrag
» We will be at the point where movies about space trips to mars cost the same as, er, going to mars.
Posted by: superdan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mwildfire on Aug 11, 2007 5:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Because we can't take one more step, beyond seeing the planet as a whole and humanity as a whole, to seeing life as a whole? because we substitute anthropocentrism for nationalism and thus we assume that the survival of humanity is a good thing no matter what?
If you have read the statements of the US Space Command, you will see that the comments above this one are not paranoid or "anti-American." The evidence is strong that the Star Wars "missile defense" effort now going forward is in fact intended to give those who control the US government first-strike capability. I suspect they are also working on a system to allow a man in a bunker in some undisclosed location to locate anyone percieved as an enemy, and then fry that person with a satellite-mounted laser, anonymously. Once the technology is in place--and I see no reason it isn't technologically possible--this cabal will have in their hands the means to that old dream, the dream of absolute power. Once a few activists in each region disappear in a puddle of grease... and then the first ones to protest or question this happening also disappear in a puddle of grease... there will be no further opposition.
In the face of this reality, it's irresponsible to say that humanity must surge into space, so that we can survive and spread even if we soon destroy our homeworld. The situation is a replica of the tale of recent human history: when two cultures collide and one is much wiser than the other, the one with wisdom and perspective is almost invariably wiped out by the other one, the "masculine" one, the one that has not been able to see beyond the root myth of civilization: the myth that it is possible for one to prosper at the expense of another. (In the short run and with a small perspective it IS possible, which is why the myth endures. But in the long run, robbing the world you live in means you live in an impoverished world). The last peaceable indigenous peoples are being destroyed by industrial greed and insatiable capitalism even as we discuss whether the human race must save itself from the destruction we visit on our own Mother, the planet that gave us birth.
So the answer is NO. We must NOT venture into space unless and until we pass the test; unless we find at last a way to change the reality that the ruthless rule. If we can survive this century without nuclear warfare, germ warfare, global climate change and/or other environmental catastrophes destroying us, if we can fend off global totalitarianism-- if we can somehow find a way to control and heal the worst among us rather than handing them the throne--then and only then, should we consider space an option. We are still in kindergarten and should not be grabbing the keys to the car.
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» Star wars looks like a billion dollar lemon that does not work.
Posted by: superdan
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Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au on Aug 11, 2007 5:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many of the fortunate souls who have made it into Earth orbit (and the infinitesimal 27 who have left Earth orbit and ventured to the moon) have expressed remarkably similar sentiments.
You Americans never set foot on the moon. You couldn't do it then and you can't do it now. Nobody can. The French can't, the Russians couldn't and the Chinese can't. If you could, you'd be there now, looking for oil. You can't even do it today, let alone then, with technology the way it was. How did you do all the process control, with slide rules? And where did the data come from, guys reading dials and scribbling like fury? You see, microprocessors hadn’t been invented yet. Computers were mainframes, that took up an entire floor, with a fraction the power of any cheap desktop or laptop today, and those spacecraft had no computers on board! And computers are absolutely necessary to process the communication from the Earth and process the data to land the module safely on the moon and get it back into orbit behind the Saturn mothership to dock it. Docking didn’t begin until the latter seventies. Oh, there was something up there, all right, but it was nowhere near t he moon, nowhere near the van Allen belt and the radiation in space that would have burnt them to a crisp. A conspiracy all right! And the astronauts themselves simply don’t act like heroes, people who have pulled off the most spectacular thing mankind has ever done. They look away from the camera, or look at it too brazenly, and they avoid the tough questions. No doubt they’re thinking about all the money they got and about the safety of their grandchildren, and maybe even some old patriotic thoughts. Aldrin has been known to walk out of some moon landing celebratory meeting sobbing. They’re getting old, so the conspiracy may fall apart soon. It fact, it already has. Find that one-liner in Bill Clinton’s autobiography, would you, where he tells you that you never made it to the moon. And come back alive, that is. When the Chinese finally do, no doubt they will find a few rockets in smithereens with the remains of dead Americans and dead Russians.
Oh, and please spare me all the foam-at-the-mouth stuff, coming from hurt egos rather than from practical thinking, where you proffer some foo-foo thing or some scientific naiveté or physical impossibility and say that it shows that the “conspiracy theorists” are wrong. The Europeans have been asking for proof of those moon landings for years – how you solved the radiation problem, for example (didn’t someone recently come up with a material they thought would be suitable, finally, for radiation-proof space suits?) NASA’s response has been invariably not to respond. Don’t you Americans want to know the truth about this? Doesn’t it bother you that your ideas about yourselves and your posturings are becoming the laughing stock of the world? If the consequences weren’t so grim, that is. (My wife is American. She told me about that one-liner in Clinton's book.)
Robert_Hoogenboom (@ )leftfoot.com.au
Sydney, Australia
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» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: RaW
» Colony at Botany Bay, eh?
Posted by: sausage
» Botany Bay....?
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Botany Bay....?
Posted by: Ghoulman
» This, my friends, is a product of no fail education...
Posted by: sausage
» "Go ask a physics professor in Germany ..."
Posted by: sausage
» Why would we go back?
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: Neilium
» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: EncinoM
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Posted by: kwalla on Aug 11, 2007 8:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Moon conspiracy theorists: Put your money where your mouth is...
Posted by: superdan
» RE: The moon landings, eh?
Posted by: WitchyNy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Aug 11, 2007 7:14 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The system is out of balance, and anything that contributes to the condition is a problem. Space travel in its present form has tremendous costs in environmental damage and resource depletion, while it is entirely elective. This makes it expendable.
We should not send another manned vehicle into space until we have obtained a sustainable, balanced system here on earth. In the best case that would put off consideration of the next launch for generations. Then we should make the kind of trade-offs that every family faces at the kitchen table. If we are going to send rockets into space, what will we give up to do it? In the meantime, I will keep reading science fiction, and try to avoid confusing it with reality.
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» RE: Fiction is fun, but progressives should stick with reality.
Posted by: sculptor
» A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» So who decides?
Posted by: sculptor
» Spot-On
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: A great analogy
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: jaiagreen
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: sculptor
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: sculptor
» But of course!
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: But of course!
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» RE: But of course!
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: A poor analogy - besides, science is great.
Posted by: jaiagreen
» RE: Fiction is fun, but progressives should stick with reality.
Posted by: Neilium
» Your heading is an oxymoron
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Earthian on Aug 11, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The alternative to the Daley vision is bleak
Posted by: katspace
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Posted by: lpugliese on Aug 11, 2007 9:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Arguing that we should fix our doomed environment before evolving to a better space is tantamount to arguing that our ancestors should have fixed the conditions in England, Europe or elsewhere before deciding to emmigrate to the New World - or that ancient sea life should have remained in the sea, rather than crawl up onto the land.
And possibly the MOST important point to anyone who does care about the future of our species- Life is NOT infinite here. The sun WILL burn out-.And make no mistake about it, we do not know when.
Thanks, Tad- brilliant!
LP
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» RE: Entropy
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» Our biology is weak and fragile, yes...however
Posted by: FDPN
» RE: Our biology is weak and fragile, yes...however
Posted by: cpotter
» RE: I don't take credit for these ideas
Posted by: cpotter
» RE: ntropy
Posted by: cpotter
» YOU WROTE THE ANSWER!
Posted by: Neilium
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Posted by: bar5608 on Aug 11, 2007 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ???
Posted by: cpotter
» RE: ??? I might be able to straighten you out here mate.
Posted by: Neilium
» RE: Reflector in space and other comments
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: ???
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: ??? Thats really a stupid question
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: ??? Space-based solar power
Posted by: oleson
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AuntSally on Aug 11, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing in science right now suggests we will ever have the capability to colonize other star systems. Perhaps this will change, but NOTHING about our understanding of physics suggests that it will. That leaves our own solar system and, we know for sure, colonizing any other body in this solar system, from the stand point of providing a haven for humans, is ludicrous. Earth is the place where humans are best suited to live. So I have an idea - let's live here!
Dedicating resources to space exploration makes sense for it's inspirational value. Doing so for survival makes no sense and, in my view, is counterproductive. We are more likely to work out our problems if we don't have a ridiculous perception in our heads that hey, if we trash this planet, we can always scam another one. No. This planet is IT. No other choices. Talk of creating havens on other planets is not consistent with science and counterproductive to caring for the one home we've got.
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» Human bodies are trapped on Earth, so cast them off...
Posted by: FDPN
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Posted by: fungus on Aug 11, 2007 10:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Hubble Space Telescope and other research on the universe.
BUT- we are ignorant about the planet around it. People are less and less in contact with species and ecosystems aaround them, with the problems that life is facing and that the impacts ecological crises will have on human life. If we really want to promote peace and equality, we must focus on changing our way of life so we can move more towards a balance with the Earth. Ecological destruction impacts more on poor people than on affluent people, and there are lots of reasons to believe that it will contribute to future wars. And we need to work to protect endangered and threatened species - it is simply the right thing to do.
Space travel is a nice fantasy. I am something of a Star Trekker and all, but I really believe that we need to focus on knowing and protecting the earth at this point. If we can come to enough of a sense of humility and justice to work out our relationship with this planet and its species, including other humans, maybe we'll be ready for space travel.
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Posted by: sausage on Aug 11, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ronald Reagan wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack, but he was smart enough to not take the fall for the Challenger disaster. Reagan wanted McAuliffe up in space in time for his January 28, 1986 State of the Union speech. So in spite of clear warnings from both Morton Thiokol and NASA engineers, that the O-rings in the Morton Thiokol solid-fuel booster rocket could fail in the cool, early winter morning Florida temperatures, 31 degess F at launch time. Pressure came all the way down from the White House to Morton Thiokol management for an on-schedule launch. Then the compliant Rogers Commission shuffled the blame off on NASA.
Reagan was then able to shift fudning away from manned space exploration to his bogus, money guzzling "Star Wars" initiative.
We're still shoveling money into Star Wars while manned space flight is almost dead. Look at Dubya's proposal for a manned Mars mission. Instead of the intelligent von Braunian vision of, manned space shuttle to permanent orbiting space station; space station as launch pad to found lunar colonies; lunar colonies have manufacturing facilities for construction of deep space vehicles to explore Mars and beyond. Dubya's proposal is back to giant booster rockets and capsules. That's like inventing the wheel all over again.
If we want to save humanity we have to get off the planet!
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» RE: onald Reagan murdered the future
Posted by: Neilium
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Posted by: FDPN on Aug 11, 2007 10:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No such thing in this universe. If you've read all this other stuff then you've probably read the Asimov short story "The Last Question." Last Question
Wherein the question of, "is there a way to prevent the heat death of the universe?" is explored.
Further, there will be no human beings should we become sufficiently advanced technologically. Our bodies are slow, fragile, and worst of all - mortal. We'll be autonomous computer AI's simulating some of what it used to mean to be human. As for the Earth? Disassembled into solar energy collecting computational matter (ala a Dyson's sphere).
Dyson Sphere
Biology is a spring board into the next stage in evolution and nothing more. The matter locked up in plants, trees, and water can be put to better uses when humanity is no longer tied to its biology.
Finally (and most importantly) who are we to be so arrogant to assume that humanity is something worth preserving? Look at us! We're nothing but violent apes fighting over shiny pieces of metal and glittering rocks! Nothing humanity has shown me convinces me that I should be concerned about its ultimate survival and proliferation throughout space.
That's why I do not care about environmentalism or space exploration, the sooner humanity goes extinct the better. All space will give us is more governments (read: the wealthy elite, all governments represent the elite) arbitrarily declaring dominion over the moon, planets, and asteroids. Then we'll have even more ridiculous things to send our young men and women off to die over (guess what?! you just got drafted into the U.S. Space Force, time to go fight the Russian led E.U. - never mind those rumors of dying a horrible, horrible death when your ship depressurizes...are you a patriot or not?! SIR YES SIR!).
Anyway, the funny thing is that most Sci-Fi oriented people genuinely believe they are a special development in human history.
Guess what? People have been dreaming of immortality and god like status for thousands of years and they even came up with some nice fairy tales to that effect dating all the way back to Egypt. Such arrogant monkeys driven by their biology to seek that which they can never have.
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» Yeah, yeah, let's all get ready for the Rapture...
Posted by: sausage
» Can you expand on this comment? I have no idea what you're trying to say to me. n/t
Posted by: FDPN
» You're a fraud
Posted by: sausage
» Your sparse comments are not adding value to the conversation
Posted by: FDPN
» There's an old saying among us unwashed...
Posted by: sausage
» NO ONES GETS OUT OF HERE ALIVE DAMNED IT.
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» Thank you for your insightful comment. n/t
Posted by: FDPN
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Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 11, 2007 10:56 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In truth, we must cope with information denied to earlier generations. We know the date when life must end on this planet. 1) Our short-term threats are a billion times greater. 2) Anyone who imagines that a well-nourished Earth-borne civilization a billion years from now would not know more than we know is stupid. 3) The only ones who want to rush into space are those who make their living at it; we can be vicitimized by our experts.
Our experts get a helping hand from everyone who believes the Earth is disposable. Space exploration and cherishing life on Earth are not necessarily incompatible. But given the choice between fantasy and work, sloth usually wins. Science is a tool not a toy or an idol. We must put away our toys and idols and get to work.
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» This kind of attitude is part of the problem, not the solution
Posted by: sausage
» RE: This kind of attitude is part of the problem, not the solution
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 11, 2007 11:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: punabear on Aug 11, 2007 11:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Aug 11, 2007 11:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm just lifting this from a particular post because it embodies a sentiment repeated in the comments. This reactionary knee-jerk is utterly beside the point. It's not unexpected, since what it pre-supposes is that this extremely under-funded agency is a positive road-block to a better world here on Earth. That's pure batshit horse-cobble. Were it true that the relatively minor nixing of the space program would have a positive net effect on issues of poverty and the environment, then it would have been done decades ago.
The reason that the powers that be allow the space program to persist (mind you, in shambles) is because the people are then alienated enough from it that it can always be looked at with confused contempt---all the promise, all the lies. This is easily given a "progressive" spin by hedging it as an issue of poverty- or environmental-politics. All the while, capitalist production diverts human productivity away from these very issues---hundreds of billions of American Dollars worth every year, I'm sure. When the activists come scratching at the legs of the economic powers, they have a host of distractions to which they point as "the real problem," such as the pointless endevours of those silly people at Cape Canaveral.
This "either you fuck the earth by sending people into space or you save it by staying" business is the kind of stuff 18 and 19 year olds pick apart in 100-level philosophy classes on critical thinking.
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» The ecology movement got a big boost from the space program.
Posted by: sausage
» RE: False Dichotomy
Posted by: DaBear
» Agreed.
Posted by: Coleman
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Posted by: Janet4784 on Aug 11, 2007 11:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Aug 11, 2007 12:27 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's the fantasy of technical progress. One where science solves all of our problems and we go out into the stars like the gods our tech has made us. That's wildly arrogant... I can't agree with this article. Colonizing far planets and moons might be practical for our species a few thousand years from now, but currently we really need to stop destroying the world we are on. The race to the Moon was more about creating intercontinental missiles than getting to the moon. More about war than the fantasy of technical progress. Just as Heinlein was a cheerleader for an adventurous future (and dubious future societies) so were we all back then. We really believed in "progress".
But it's not so. We live in a society far removed from such noble will. Outer Space is filled with military junk where Space Command in the US is quickly gaining oversite, and NASA will soon become a mere contractor.
There is a different imperative we need, I believe - to survive as a species we need to have real science protecting us from the wilds of interstellar life. Right now we have, I believe, all of two scientists looking our for rocks called "planet killers". I'll let you figure out if two scientists is enough for that job. We are only barely getting even data regarding the cycles of the Sun. Galactic mysteries abound (we really hope that gamma blast did hurt, even if it did seem to have the combined energy read of the entire Galaxy. Yikes)... but colonizing? Let's just try to survive first.
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 11, 2007 1:23 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"False Dichotomy" says it best when the commentor points out the absurd logic of trying to claim something which is ultimately interconnected can be solved by only focusing on one part to the exclusion of the whole. That's brilliant progressive educated thought. That sort of brilliance ought to temper the cynicism, but in the objectors to progressives caring about space programs, their shunting their brilliance in favor of their cynicism and that's why WE ARE LOSING TO THE NEOCONS, people! Hello!
Progressives very much need to be concerned about humanity's, and frankly the U.S.A.'s, endeavors into space (including low earth orbit, which today passes for "spaceflight"). We should be incharge of promoting and funding it. What better more practical way to destroy the military industrial complex than to reallocate her funding to peaceful space-endeavors? Don't think for one minute that the challenge of keeping the soldier cultists out of the space program and such a reallocation of funds won't be a full time job for progressives. Using "well we suck at stopping them from invading other countries here on earth" as an excuse for not caring about space programs is assinine. Because we suck at stopping fascists on our home turf means we have to get better at stopping fascists period! Is space expensive, hard, tech-heavy, unsustainable? Maybe. Sure. No, it's not. Just because something is hard or challenging, or expensive for that matter, means that it is something progressives shouldn't deal with. By that logic we should drop caring about our military in Iraq because we've got neocon neo-nazis running amok in Kansas. It's cheaper and more poragmatic to fight the Klan in PA than it is to bother with Iraq. Does that make Iraq off limits for progressives? Like hell!
Those that illogically moan, 'we can't take care of earth, so we shouldn't be in space' are confusing their otherwise healthy cynicism with the reality of the situation. Yes we are in a war against soldier-cultists, fascists and a media hologram, a fight that is literally to the death. But you cannot wage a campaign to save your life with just one intervention or by simply resolving one issue at a time. We'll bleed out on the table (and we ARE) under that sort of stoopid.
Progressives have to be grown ups and hold ALL the lighting bolts in both hands. Stop being cowards and grow up... tech is real, space it there, fascism is in DC and every state house in the union. It's either a progressive led spacefaring species together as a whole of humanity or a militaristic soldier-cult empire run by giant corporations. Do you really think the latter will happen if progressives are fully involved? It certainly will if progressives aren't. Tad is right, and if you disagree, you need a serious slap upside the head to get a clue. Wake up and stop wailing the earth might not be round afterall... it is, so deal with it.
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Posted by: fearn on Aug 11, 2007 2:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Makes much more sense than the current program!
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Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 2:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. The most accurate topographical map of the Earth. This data is used to develop safer navigation techniques and better communication systems.
2. Ultraviolet protection suits for people with rare intolerance to UV light, known xeroderma pigmentosum.
3. Heart pump based on technology of space shuttle's fuel pumps. It's two inches long, one inch in diameter, and weighs less than four ounces.
4. Efficient autos and planes benefiting from NASA wind tunnel and aerodynamic expertise.
5. New metal alloys based on research for the space station program.
6. Thermal protection blankets used in everything from fire fighters suits to survival gear for cold environments.
7. Robots and robotic software with wide-ranging uses that include auto-assembly plants, hazardous material handling, monitoring in dangerous environments, distribution and packaging facilities, etc.
8. Lightweight composite materials that benefit cars, airplanes, camping gear, etc.
9. Perfect protein crystals grown in zero gravity; used for more pure pharmaceutical drugs, foods and an assortment of other crystalline-based products including insulin for diabetes patients.
10. Better understanding of the Earth and its environmental response to natural and human-induced variations such as air quality, climate, land use, food production as well as monitoring quality of our oceans and fresh water.
11. Commercial space communication systems for personal phones, computers, video transmissions, global positioning satellite systems, etc.
12. Improvements in energy use efficiency.
13. More responsible use of air and water in private and commercial buildings.
14. Automated maintenance functions for buildings and new lower-cost building construction techniques.
15. Smoke detectors for homes and commercial buildings.
16. Air purification systems used to by hospitals to provide pure oxygen for patients.
17. High-bandwidth and optical communications systems.
18. Technology for cordless tools such as drills, shrub trimmers and rechargeable flashlights.
19. Growth of zeolite crystals that have the potential to reduce the cost of petroleum and to store new types of fuels like hydrogen, which is abundant and pollution-free. This technology could be used in hydrogen-powered cars.
20. Fire-fighting systems that battle blazes with a fine mist, rather than environmentally harmful chemicals.
21. Sunglasses that block certain types of light - blue, violet, and ultraviolet - that could hurt the eyes. These sunglasses block the hazardous light, while allowing light that is good for vision to pass through the lens.
22. Solar power collection.
23. Air filtration systems that can kill all types of harmful bacteria - even anthrax -- and remove allergens from the air with better than 90 percent efficiency.
24. Ultralight solar concentrators that gather power from the Sun and efficiently convert it into electrical power. Applications for this technology on Earth are limitless.
25. Water purification methods using ions (an atom or group of atoms carrying a positive or negative electrical charge). Used in water filtering systems to remove lead, chlorine, bad taste and odor. Newer purification systems also remove contaminants such as perchlorate and nitrate.
26. "Power Pads" to cushion a horse's hooves, protecting against injuries and helping ease discomfort associated with brittle hooves or arthritis.
27. Disposable diapers. [Note: I agree, this one is not generally considered a benefit by progressives.]
28. Devices for collection and real-time analysis of blood, and other bodily fluids, without the need for centrifugation. Huge potential for hospitals and for remote units to monitor individuals with health problems.
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» RE: Benefits of the space program... Part 1
Posted by: OhioPatriot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 2:20 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
30. Computer-aided tomography (CATScan) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) for imaging the body and its organs.
31. Light-emitting diodes used in photodynamic therapy. These diodes are used in a form of chemotherapy that kills cancerous tumors.
32. Infrared sensors used in hand-held optical sensor thermometers. These devices can measure temperature in the ear canal in two seconds or less.
33. Devices used to diagnose and treat patients suffering head injury, stroke, chronic dizziness and disorders of the central nervous system.
34. Compact laboratory instruments for hospitals and doctor offices that analyze blood in 30 seconds what once took 20 minutes.
35. Land mine removal using flare device and leftover fuel donated from NASA.
36. Technology which allows vehicles to transmit a signal back to a home base. Used to track and reassign emergency and public works vehicles; also track vehicle operations such as taxis, armored cars and vehicles carrying hazardous cargo. Now used to recover stolen vehicles.
37. Cutters using small explosive charges used by emergency rescue personnel to quickly extract accident victims.
38. Image-processing technology used remove defects due to image jitter, image rotation and image zoom in video sequences. Used by law enforcement agencies to improve crime-solving videos; doctors in medical imaging; scientific applications and even home video cameras.
39. Gas leak-detection system used by Ford in natural gas-powered car.
40. Method of labeling products with invisible and virtually indestructible markings - used on electronic parts, pharmaceuticals and livestock -- in fact it could be used on just about anything.
41. Fire resistant foam used as thermal and acoustical insulation in aerospace, marine and industrial products. Also used as for fire barriers, packaging and other applications requiring either high-temperature or very low-temperature insulation. Used by Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and Airbus for for major weight savings in aircraft.
42. Hand-held camera which firefighters use to pinpoint the hotspots of wildfires.
43. Safer soldering base for jewelers using torches in jewelry assembly. Based on heat-shield tiles of shuttle instead of hazardous asbestos bases previously used.
44. Quick-connect fasteners used by firefighters and nuclear power-plant repair technicians.
45. Game-controlling joystick for computers and entertainment systems.
46. Spray lube used for rust prevention; loosening corroded nuts; cleaning and lubricating guns and fishing reels; and lubricating and reducing engine friction.
47. World-wide television broadcasts.
48. Home insulation system which provides significant savings in home heating and cooling costs - uses technology of aluminum heat shield developed for Apollo spacecraft.
49. Laser technology used in artery catheters to spot areas of blockage and fire short bursts of laser beams to vaporize them - a "cool" laser providing thousands of patients with an alternative to heart bypass surgery.
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Posted by: defrag on Aug 11, 2007 2:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
51. "Smart" forceps made of composite material, with embedded fiber optics. These obstetrical forceps allow doctors to measure the amount of pressure being applied to an infant's head during delivery.
52. Small pill-shaped transmitters Used to monitor intestinal activity; blood pressure and temperature of infants still inside the womb; body functions of athletes and high-stress professionals such as firefighters and soldiers.
53. Technology to quickly arrange and analyze human chromosomes and detect genetic abnormalities that could lead to disease in infants.
54. Image processing software used in dermatology analysis to "decode" the shadow patterns and provided accurate heights and depths.
55. Roofs based on moonsuits that look stiff, but are flexible and expand in heat and contract in cold. Used as covering of malls, stadiums and new airports like Denver International.
56. Padding in helmets, shin guards, chest protectors and aircraft seating.
57. Golf balls with greater accuracy and distance.
58. Lightning protection systems for aircraft.
59. Windshear detection and warning system for aircraft.
60. Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TACS) now used by virtually all passenger aircraft.
61. Monitoring system which scans important documents at certain times and compares the differences between the images. The system detects changes in contrast, shape and other features. Used by museums and the National Archives to monitor historic documents and plan a way to stop any damage.
62. Landsat imagery to discover unknown archeology sites; reveal ancient coastlines; manage the harvesting of fish in the world’s oceans; calculate how well crops are doing, etc.
63. Robotic mother pigs which keep piglet formula (milk) cool until it is needed then heats and delivers the right amount at feeding time.
64. Improved spray nozzles for crop dusters.
65. New breathing system for firefighters made up of a face mask, frame and harness, warning device, and air bottle. Weighs one-third less than old gear.
66. Virtual reality simulators for medical operations, flight training, truck driving, etc.
67. Hydroponics used by vegetable farmers to grow crops without soil.
68. Fluorometer instrument used to monitor plankton in the world's oceans. Instrument measures amount of glow given off by plankton and other marine life that consume sunlight in their photosynthesis process. Much of the world’s oxygen comes from plankton.
69. Oil spill cleanup using beeswax microcapsules. The beeswax balls absorb oil and keep water out. Absorbed oil is digested by microorganism enzymes inside the ball. When the balls get full of digested oil, they explode and release environmentally safe enzymes, carbon dioxide and water.
70. Software to match and track whales.
71. DirectTV.
72. Satellite radio.
73. Fire-Resistant Aircraft Seats.
74. "Cool suit" which helps to improve the quality of life of multiple sclerosis patients.
75. Pacemaker that can be programmed from outside the body.
76. Instruments to measure bone loss and bone density, without penetrating the skin.
77. Implant for delivering insulin to diabetics that provides more precise control of blood sugar levels and frees diabetics from the burden of daily insulin injections.
78. Device for growing ovarian tumors so that tumors can be studied outside the body, without harm to the patient.
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» RE: Benefits of the space program... Part 3
Posted by: EJW
» Yeah, but... where's the Tang?
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Yeah, but... where's the Tang?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Yeah, but...
Posted by: particle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NumberSix on Aug 11, 2007 2:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Far more cynical than me, his point was that the entire moon program was a lovely way to hide in plain sight the real reason why we needed that grade of technology.
"See, Ike had a baby when Sputnik was cruising way up over New York. He needled his pals, like, how long before Uncle Ivan can send up a warhead? So, the entire program was a smokescreen for getting the hottest stuff to play nuclear chess, sir."
True? I am not sure, but having been part of aerospace, I've seen the technology since Mercury One go from B-17's to B-2's, kids. True, what rests, currently, in the silos, under the wings of planes, in the subs is all part of that boost we got from Apollo....or was the whole idea all along, one wonders?
"So, Kennedy's speech......."
"Smoke and mirrors to sell the public on an arms race."
Such would be lovely, noble, beautiful to really think we did the space thing for the very reasons of James T Kirk ("...to seek out new worlds..."), but having seen the way things have gone since Mercury, I am no longer that sure. Perhaps man is not ready for the final frontier, as he is too paranoid and too committed to his own doomsday.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Aug 11, 2007 2:42 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do we want to become a species that just goes from one planet to another -draining it of all natural resouces and poisoning it -and then moving on to the next victim?
(Remember the Aliens in the movie Independence Day?-Do we really want to evolve into THAT?)
We have starving children in this world. Every day thousands more die. If we do meet some Aliens-what ON EARTH are we going to say to them? It only cost us 100 million children to get this far?
Our world is sick and it is OUR fault.
Until we can get our own act together, clean up our own mess, and take care of our own planet-we don't have any business going anywhere else....
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» Oh, Boo Hoo
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Oh, Boo Hoo-what grade are you in?
Posted by: WitchyNy
» A College Senior
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: A College Senior
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: A College Senior
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: OK-
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: MartinBachelor
Posted by: WitchyNy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EJW on Aug 11, 2007 3:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I too was in aerospace for a time and every day I thought about how wonderful our world could be if all that brain power was put to better use. Not only in the space program, but in energy technology, ecology renewal technology and methods, in all the fields we need to develop to save the planet and humankind.
I am in favor of going into space - mostly so we have something better to do then killing each other. Mankind needs challenges and challenges with real risk attached to feel human - we are expplorers and warriors to our very core; we need to fight to live. We used to fight the environmentment - can't do that anymore. We need new challenges, new fights, new hopes so that we can move on and stop killing each other.
Weapons in space - we may some day need them for the good of all.
Science is our best hope of survival. Science is the tool that a higher power gave us to be fruitful. Science is our best weapon against fear.
Science does not negate faith - it proves it. It is the best way to prove our faith. Science tests us every day to explore ethics and morality.
It is not a question of one thing or the other. Science tells us that the answer is both. Remember Schrodinger's Cat - it is both alive and dead at the same time. Time to move beyond Black and White thinking and become something new.
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» Science and religion
Posted by: Neilium
» RE: Science and religion
Posted by: EncinoM
» I am not impressed with "faith" as a path to morality.
Posted by: superdan
» RE: Some Points to Consider
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eosrk on Aug 11, 2007 4:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the same will happen for deep space travel. someone whom of the same cloth, and it might come from an poor person whom had to come up with wild ideas to survive and the ideas work.
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» What makes you think that? This isn't 1900 buddy.
Posted by: FDPN
» RE: What makes you think that? This isn't 1900 buddy.
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: The Wrights were engineers....!
Posted by: NumberSix
» RE: it's already happening
Posted by: oleson
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 11, 2007 7:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But that’s not all. The moon is full of HELIUM 3, an isotope of Helium useful for a clean type of fusion. It is exceedingly rare on the earth:
“Researchers and space enthusiasts seehelium 3 as the perfect fuel source: extremely potent, nonpolluting, withvirtually no radioactive by-product. Proponents claim its the fuel ofthe 21st century. The trouble is, hardly any of it is found on Earth. But there is plenty of it on the moon.
Society is straining to keep pace withenergy demands, expected to increase eightfold by 2050 as the world populationswells toward 12 billion. The moon just may be the answer.
"Helium 3 fusion energy may be thekey to future space exploration and settlement," said Gerald Kulcinski,Director of the Fusion Technology Institute (FTI) at the University ofWisconsin at Madison.
Scientists estimate there are about1 million tons of helium 3 on the moon, enough to power the world for thousandsof years. The equivalent of a single space shuttle load or roughly 25 tonscould supply the entire United States' energy needs for a year, accordingto Apollo17 astronaut and FTI researcher Harrison Schmitt.”
These are the surprise results of orbiters sent to the moon (Clementine, launched 1994, then Lunar Prospector, launched 1998) and mars (Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, and two Mars Exploration Rovers) and are the reasons Bush announced a lunar and martian space program in 2004 (?). Interesting that water ice and Helium 3 are each useful as fuel, like oil.
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» I'd hate to see them misuse fusion for nuclear attacks.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I'd hate to see them misuse fusion for nuclear attacks.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Where in his post did he say anything about banning nuclear fusion?
Posted by: EncinoM
» Take your own advice. That line you quoted doesn't mean what you think it means. nm
Posted by: FDPN
» Don't put the cart before the horse.
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
» No, Nasa has not identified water ice on the moon.
Posted by: superdan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dzen on Aug 12, 2007 10:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I'm concerned, the high point of the space program was the images from our planets and their moons that the Voyagers would send back every few months.
Until America demonstrates that it has enough basic competence to do something like provide health care for its children, or maintain a sane level of energy consumption, there's no reason to believe that the space program can become anything more than what it is today, a financial black hole to benefit the defense industry.
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» Therein Lies that Subversiveness
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: The US isn't mature enough for a space program
Posted by: MartianBachelor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Aug 12, 2007 3:04 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nevertheless, (as hinted at here) some people who should know better still speak of space colonization as a cure for overpopulation. Scientists have already debunked the ludicrous notion that colonizing space will further enable human overbreeding, so let's not delude ourselves with that fantasy.
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» WHAT???
Posted by: WitchyNy
» As if YOU understand chaos theory. Or read the link I posted.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Way off friend.
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Way off friend...and to Pat.
Posted by: WitchyNy
» So astrology is more than hocus-pocus, is it? Here's how you can make $1,000,000 proving it!
Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: Way off friend. -- So why are YOU avoiding Randi's $1,000,000 offer?
Posted by: Pat Kittle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Libertine on Aug 12, 2007 6:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Planets capable of supporting life are a rare thing in our universe, and ours is suffering from years of pollution as indicated by global warming.
It is the birthplace and home of humanity; of every human being that has ever lived until the present time. We are all in the same boat together: Americans and Iraqis, liberals and conservatives, terrorists and pacifists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, black, white and asian, men and women, and every other category of human on Earth.
Viewed in this way, all the petty things that divide us and seem to matter so much to us in our short lives on this planet don't really amount to hill of beans in the long run. The sooner we all learn we're all in this together and cooperate to save our planet from destruction and stop concentrating on the minuscule things that divide us, the better off we'll be.
Before anything else, we are all citizens of Earth first.
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Posted by: Don on Aug 12, 2007 6:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even though a little bit of scientific investigation was done on the side during our visits to the moon, the Apollo missions were more a global publicity stunt to impress the world with the fact that we could beat the Russians to the moon, than a real scientific expedition. As soon as we demonstrated to the world that we had accomplished it, the rest of the missions were cancelled. Of course, we had more important things to spend our money on in those days - VietNam for example.
Who would have even conceived that when man first set foot on the moon in 1969, we would just say "ok we done it!", and that 40 years we would never have returned.
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Posted by: GradientConsequence on Aug 13, 2007 8:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What has changed? Our efforts are still time/space bound. We are still delaying the inevitable. The fact is, we will never know the universe via a dense matter vehicle; space shuttle or human body.
What is the solution? Change the very nature of our technology from heavy to light, for as long as we remain heavy, we will never be LIGHT. Once again; so long as we are heavy, we will never be LIGHT (...hint).
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» RE: What is Technology?
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: What is Technology?
Posted by: GradientConsequence
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Darrell Kern on Aug 14, 2007 10:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep asking yourselves this question over and over. Because if you think the power elite are gonna sit next to you on the space shuttle you are sadly mistaken.
I say give NASA not another dime.
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Posted by: Sum Won on Aug 15, 2007 1:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Robotic space exploration probably costs many times less than body piercings, etc., etc.
Posted by: Pat Kittle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: joe_ave on Aug 20, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The space program is one of the few things we do that isn't in response to some perceived problem. It's a societal expression of positive human traits like curiosity and the desire to explore, and as such is worth supporting. (I wonder how many space program detractors would favor the elimination of that 'useless' government monetary suckhole, the National Endowment for the Arts? Sure, the monetary scale is different, but the principle is the same. That NEA money could feed a definite, calculable number of starving human beings.) We can't be all 'work' and no 'play'. I'm in complete agreement with the false dichotomy arguments posted here. We can work on our problems at the same time we engage in 'frivolous' things like space exploration and artistic expression.
Scale back--WAY back-- our out-of-control military spending-- make our Department of Defense truly about DEFENSE-- and I'll consider supporting a scaleback of the space program.
Meanwhile, hurricane Dean bears down on the Cayman Islands. Just HOW did we know of Dean's existence and projected path well before it ever made landfall? HOW did we manage to warn the people in its path DAYS in advance and minimize property damage and loss of life? Hmmm....
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