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In Violation of Federal Law, Ohio's 2004 Presidential Election Records Are Destroyed or Missing
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The lost records violate Ohio law, which states federal election records must be kept for 22 months after Election Day, and a U.S. District Court order issued last September that the 2004 ballots be preserved while the court hears a civil rights lawsuit alleging voter suppression of African-American voters in Columbus.
The destruction of the election records also frustrates efforts by the media and historians to determine the accuracy of Ohio's 2004 vote count, because in county after county the key evidence needed to understand vote count anomalies apparently no longer exists.
"The extent of the destruction of records is consistent with the covering up of the fraud that we believe occurred in the presidential election," said Cliff Arnebeck, a Columbus attorney representing the King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association, which filed voter suppression suit. "We're in the process of addressing where to go from here with the Ohio Attorney General's office."
"On the one hand, people will now say you can't prove the fraud," he said, "but the rule of law says that when evidence is destroyed it creates a presumption that the people who destroyed evidence did so because it would have proved the contention of the other side."
Brunner's office confirmed the 2004 ballots were missing, but declined to comment.
"Because this case is still pending, Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner is unable to comment on this," said Jeff Ortega, a spokesperson. "Ultimately, whether the boards of elections are in violation of a federal court order is a matter for the court to decide."
The missing presidential election records were discovered this past spring by Brunner, a Democrat and former judge who was elected Secretary of State in 2006. Her predecessor, Republican J. Kenneth Blackwell, was sued in August 2006 by a Columbus community organization that alleged the former Secretary of State and other "unnamed" officials "selectively and discriminatorily designed and implemented procedures for the allocation of voting machines in a manner to create a shortage for certain urban precincts where large numbers of African-Americans resided," according to the complaint.
Under federal and Ohio law, all ballots and election records from federal races must be preserved for 22 months after Election Day, which fell on Sept. 2, 2006. While election integrity activists and reporters from a Columbus website, FreePress.org, had sought the ballots and other election records soon after the presidential election, Blackwell would not allow county boards to release the ballots, citing court challenges to the 2004 results and a 2005 suit from the League of Women Voters alleging the state was not following the newest federal election law, the Help America Vote Act. By spring 2006, after the League's lawyers stipulated they were not challenging the 2004 election results, some counties began to release their 2004 election records. Scrutiny of those records raised questions about the conduct of the election and some county vote totals.
On Aug. 23, 2006, lawyers for the King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association notified the Secretary of State's office of their voter suppression suit. The following day Blackwell's office sent letters to all 88 of Ohio's county Boards of Election, notifying them of the suit. It is customary for public officials to preserve potential evidence when notified of pending litigation. Blackwell negotiated with opposing attorneys and agree to send a directive to election boards saying the ballots should be retained. Ian Urbina, a New York Times reporter working on the story, reported that Blackwell said he would be creating a process whereby county election officials could eventually review and dispose of the 2004 ballots.
On Sept. 11, 2006, U.S. District Judge Algenon Marbley ordered the election boards "to preserve all ballots from the 2004 Presidential election, on paper and in any other format, including electronic data, unless and until such time otherwise instructed by this Court."
Two months after Marbley's order, Blackwell lost the race for governor to Democrat Ted Strickland and Brunner was elected Secretary of State. During the following winter and spring, Brunner and the state's attorneys began negotiating a settlement for the voter suppression suit, according to lawyers involved in those talks. Part of that agreement, which has not yet been brought before the federal district court, was the creation of a statewide repository of the 2004 presidential ballots. When conducting an inventory and attempting to collect those records, Brunner's office learned that seven counties had no ballots to turn over and 56 counties only had partial records from the 2004 vote.
"This is not just a violation of a 22-month ballot retention law. It is a violation of a court order," Arnebeck said. "Blackwell told the New York Times that he would create a clearance procedure before destroying any ballots. The combination of Blackwell's directive and my letter should have been enough to give the counties notice."
What happened to the 2004 ballots
The presidential ballots and election records were lost, misplaced, damaged by water, taken to landfills -- all apparently by mistake, due to miscommunications, or because the local election administrators were not aware of the state ballot preservation law or the federal court order, according to letters to Brunner's office from the various county election boards.
"Our staff unintentionally discarded boxes containing Ballot Pages as requested in (Brunner's) Directive 2007-07 due to unclear and misinterpreted instructions," wrote Butler County Board of Election Director Betty McGary and Deputy Director Lynn Kinkaid in a May 9 memo. "Several boxes containing all the wire-bound ballot pages were discarded into a Rumpke dumpster. The dumpster would have been emptied into the local landfill."
"The Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Board of Elections was unable to transfer the unvoted precinct ballots and soiled precinct ballots," wrote John Williams, Hamilton County Director of Elections on May 16, 2007. "To the best if my knowledge, the above ballots were inadvertently shredded between January 19th and 26th of '06 in an effort to make room for the new Hart voting system."
"No one could remember the disposition of said ballots," wrote Mike Keeley, of Clermont County's Board of Elections on May 10, 2007, referring to the "unvoted" or unused ballots from the 2004 presidential election.
Since the 2004 election, a handful of media organizations, civil rights groups, attorneys, historians and authors have been investigating how the president won in Ohio by 118,775 votes. These inquiries have had two primary focuses: examining Republican-led voter suppression tactics and problems with the vote count, suggesting vote count fraud.
The partisan voter suppression tactics have been easier to document. Before the election, Blackwell, who was co-chair of the state's Bush-Cheney campaign, issued numerous administrative orders that fueled an extreme partisan climate. One of the most notable came as Ohio was seeing large voter registration drives in mid-2004. Blackwell issued an order, which he later rescinded under pressure, saying only voter registrations on 80-pound paper would be accepted and processed. At the time, Republican Gov. Robert Taft told reporters that directive could disenfranchise 100,000 voters. The state Republican Party also threatened to send thousands of poll challengers to local precincts, to ensure only properly registered voter exercised that right.
On Election Day in many Ohio cities, the turnout -- or voter accommodation rate -- in these traditional Democratic strongholds was markedly lower than in nearby suburbs, where Republicans have tended to be the majority. In Columbus, the King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association sued saying African-American voters in Franklin County were disenfranchised because urban precincts received fewer voting machines per capita than the whiter, wealthier suburbs. They noted urban precincts had many more voting machines during the spring primary.
Ohio's Secretary of State and Attorney General are engaged in settlement talks in the neighborhood association suit, suggesting the voter suppression claims have merit. In contrast, the case for Republican vote count fraud in the rural areas has been much harder to prove, even as the certified vote count is problematic in some counties.
Compared to Ohio's Democratic urban core, turnout in the Republican districts was higher than the 2000 election. Moreover, in a handful of counties there were vote count anomalies that made post-election observers question whether Bush's vote was padded. The most notable example is more than 10,000 voters from several Bible belt counties who voted for Bush and voted in favor of gay marriage, if the results are true. In a dozen rural counties, virtually unknown Democrats at the bottom of the ballot received more votes that Kerry, an oddity in a presidential year.
Reporters associated with FreePress.org and Arnebeck's legal team hoped the court order preserving the 2004 ballots would enable them to investigate how these results occurred. Depending on the ballot type and vote-counting machine used, they have theories about how Bush's vote could have been inflated. But because many of these rural counties apparently have destroyed the very 2004 election records that would clarify what happened, it is now virtually impossible to determine what happened.
In Warren County, where county election officials said on Election Day that the FBI had declared a homeland security alert -- which they later retracted -- ballots were diverted to a warehouse before counting. The local media was not allowed to observe the vote count. According to a letter from the Warren County Board of Election to Brunner's office, the election board cannot find 22,000 unused ballots from the election.
"The missing records reveal where the fraud occurred," said Arnebeck. "You take as an example, Warren County. It is well documented that there was a phony homeland security alert and that was the excuse for excluding the public and the press from observing what was going on during Election Day. So the missing unused ballots would suggest that ballots were remade to fit the desired result."
"The same situation occurred in Clermont County," he said. "We have sworn affidavits from people who saw white stickers placed over the Kerry-Edward ovals in this optical scan county," he said, referring to one way of masking a would-be Kerry vote, because optical-scan machines read ink marks on paper ballots. "So the missing unused ballots would suggest they were used to remake ballots to reflect the desired vote for Bush."
Many rural Ohio counties did not have vote count problems, Arnebeck said. But enough did have significant problems that called for further investigation.
"The Attorney General says the rural counties all say human error was to blame (for the missing ballots)," he said. "There are some counties where ballots are missing and we don't believe anything was wrong with the vote count. But there are others where that human error covers up what we think was vote count fraud."
Another big category of votes that will never be explained are the nearly 129,000 ballots that were rejected by voting machines and not counted. Many of these 2004 ballots -- a mix of computer punch cards, paper ballots to be marked by ink and electronic votes -- are among the incomplete 2004 election records. One post-election analysis found 94,000 of these ballots come from Democratic-majority precincts, and estimated these that ballots could have cost Kerry an additional 26,000 votes.
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Posted by: Libertine on Jul 30, 2007 12:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» We need that computer voting now. Then we 'dont need no stinking records'
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Once again Albrecht is wrong and uninformed.
Posted by: Ellie1
» Why No "Surprise"? Perhaps It's the Utterly Pathetic Predictability of It All...
Posted by: grumble-bum
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Posted by: hayduke1 on Jul 30, 2007 12:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the entire party should be relegated to the same dust bin as the Nazi party.
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» RE: corrupt to the core
Posted by: Spot
» RE: corrupt to the core
Posted by: rockstrigoi
» RE: corrupt to the core
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: danmonte on Jul 30, 2007 1:28 PM
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jul 30, 2007 10:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
plur
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» RE: ohio
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: nor cal surfer on Jul 30, 2007 2:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hot karlrove on Jul 30, 2007 2:11 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What else would you call a place where the voice of the people is supressed and elections are rigged?
What about a place where the mainstream media is a tool of the elite that own all?
Remember even Stalin's Russia had folks that would make up flyers yet that was not evidence of freedom.
What about a place where the ruling elite ignore the founding legal documents for the republic?
What about a place where your future is guaranteed to be worse if kept on the same path?
What about a place where the owning elites are activley arming via mercenaries ( Blackwater) to protect themselves form the onslaught of poor once the bubble bursts?
What about a place where any rights left are a sham and not absolute. The rights can ( and are) be taken away.
It's right here right now. 2008 will not change anything.
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» RE: IP Democracy USA
Posted by: Solar Wind
» You can't run far enough to get away from their agenda.
Posted by: Prophit0
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Posted by: socrates2 on Jul 30, 2007 2:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where I come from, where (and when) the will of a majority is killed/destroyed/sabotaged, that translates into treason against OUR Constitution. Pure and simple.
I am against the death penalty. So that leaves 25-to-life in prison for all convicted parties, conspirators and non-conspirators alike...
Instead, our elected officials have so little regard for our Constitutional WILL that the unholy offense of tampering with the vote becomes a simple felony or misdemeanor. That is all these white collar bureaucrats get IF AND WHEN they get prosecuted and convicted for this sacrilege against our popular will ("voice of the people, voice of god"). Recall: Most of the officials entrusted to protect the sanctity of the vote are either elected of appointed--ergo, politically well-connected...
So dollars to doughnuts the local prosecutors will tend to over-scrutinize the evidence before opting to charge these "pillars of the community." Compare them to true innocents charged with murder, rape or burglary who--before DNA evidence--were convicted on someone's flimsy "identification."
Today, with the evidence of vote-tampering "destroyed," the local DA may say, "Well, folks, I don't believe a jury of peers will vote to convict 12-0 on such flimsy evidence, so I won't file charges. End of story.
We need an authentic historical narrative that instills in the voter (citizen and juror) a true appreciation for the value and sanctity of their vote, only then can the juries appreciate the treasonous magnitude of the crime committed against the Constitution, the Republic and against the public will.
"Reader's Digest" and M.A.D.D. did it for DUI's and movies-of-the-week did it for sexual abusers, wife-beaters and other ethical lapsers. So let's educate ourselves, folks.
And let the criminals pay for treason. Treason, I say. Because when your political will and mine are relegated to the trash-heap by some corrupt official, there can be no other name for it--at least in a Constitutional democracy....
Good luck.
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» Treason indeed...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Treason indeed...
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Treason indeed...Personally I favor fair trials - and a lot of rope
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» If you're gonna commit treason, you better own the Supreme Court. They do?
Posted by: Sojourner
» "Treason" == Bullstchit!
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Elaborate on "Constitutional Treason" if you will
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: dayenta on Jul 30, 2007 3:07 PM
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Posted by: gellero on Jul 30, 2007 3:57 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 30, 2007 6:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bamboozled on Jul 30, 2007 11:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I were in charge of my county's election results, I'd personally deliver them, with as many witnesses from all major parties as possible, to a safe-deposit box.
You're telling me not only did they not protect these records, they DESTROYED THEM? That's not only criminal behavior, but TREASONOUS behavior.
Secondly, we need to have Election Day be a national paid holiday. It works in other countries, and it would completely change the country. Period.
Thirdly, we need hand-counted paper ballots. It's obvious from the hacking report that came out today, not to mention the horrific discrepancies in Ohio, WE NEED RECORDS.
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» RE: National Vote Holiday, Paper Ballots, and Fair Financing
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Jul 31, 2007 4:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No matter who wins the next, or the next, or the next election, nothing will change for a majority of Americans. Those who betrayed “the people” still control the political process and will never reform a system that treats them like royalty. They not only make the law, they are above the law, and that’s the way they mean to keep it.
When elections can be rigged with impunity, democracy is over.
It’s going to be interesting to see how “the land of the brave and the free” rationalize this reality.
.
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Jul 31, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Fire the elections officials.
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: ARREST the elections officials.
Posted by: channing
» RE: HANG the elections officials.
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: EKSwitaj on Jul 31, 2007 6:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
elizabethkateswitaj.net
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» Its a two party stranglehold on government.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Its a two party "may the best theift win"
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: antiapathy on Jul 31, 2007 6:42 AM
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jul 31, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all know its rigged. So, what are you going to do? Keep voting and doing nothing else? Your government does not listen to you... because your government does not care. Our entire system and thus our entire nation is in the stranglehold of two parties. You can keep voting for one of them hoping that they will eventually become "progressive".. just like the conservative Christians keep voting for Republicans because they think that at some point they will get those wonderful bans on abortion and gay marriage, etc.. that they will finally get the theocracy they want, but of course, they will never get it. And you will never get truly progressive democrats, either. They will mouth the words if they have to, but thats all. Just like the Christian conservatives you will never get what you want from them because they don't see it as the will of a democratic society. They see it as leverage to get you to do vote for them... and there is no way they will ever be foolish enough to give it to you and give up that carrot. Like riding a mule... you hold a carrot out in front of him to make him go... but as soon as you give him that carrot he won't go where you want him to anymore.
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Posted by: schnoggi on Jul 31, 2007 8:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: peacefullaim on Jul 31, 2007 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: channing on Jul 31, 2007 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Due to the current corruption in the DOJ, we cannot count on them to treat this issue Fairly, Impartially, or with Due Diligence, and for that, the DOJ itself should be held accountable.
A failure in this area of Constitutional Law will lead this nation on a path toward a New American Revolution because We are about to witness First Hand whether there is any Justice left in our Judicial Branch, woe to the US if Justice Fails Our Right To Vote!
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» Good point"now get a lawer to listen b4 bush get his life term in office"
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: helenwheels on Jul 31, 2007 9:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What always maddened me the most were the exit polls (2000 & 2004). Apparently, exit polls in the past were always within a few percentage points of the actual outcome, but suddenly in 2000 and 2004, there was a HUGE percentage disparity. I didn't read this entire article and maybe that touched upon the exit polls, but that to me was such a glaring thing that I am still flabbergasted it didn't warrant a much bigger investigation (or... one at all?).
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» RE: Just amazing
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Just amazing
Posted by: arclight
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Posted by: helenwheels on Jul 31, 2007 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Blackwell
Posted by: Jo1028
» RE: Blackwell
Posted by: tlv
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Posted by: arclight on Jul 31, 2007 10:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suppose part of it was that Blackwell would have been caught if he fixed the gubernatorial vote, since he had been 30 points behind Strickland in polls on the day before the election, but what about the rest of it?
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» RE: They simply could not rig enough votes in 2006...
Posted by: channing
» RE: So...what happened in 2006?
Posted by: srosenfeld
» RE: So...what happened in 2006?
Posted by: tlv
» RE: So...what happened in 2006? - Military/CIA coup
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 31, 2007 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all knew in advance that Ohio would be a swing state.
We all knew in advance that Christian/Republican operatives were motivated to make sure Republicans won everywhere in the state.
We all knew in advance that the owner of Diebold said that he would MAKE SURE that Bush was elected President.
All of this we knew in advance.
Now, we know that Rove's steamroller machine under the guise of 'voter fraud' was working overtime removing anyone from the Justice Dept. that the WH didn't like.
Now we see that a HUGE systematic effort was in place to remove evidence of wrongdoing in Ohio. This obfuscation effort was done despite federal rules in place to prevent such a task from being carried out.
It's obvious to anyone who is capable of putting 2 and 2 together that voter fraud indeed did take place in Ohio. But, it had nothing to do with Democrats. It had everything to do with Republicans and their efforts to steal the election.
The Republican party is one of failure, fraud and mythos. It is a party of authority, oligarchy and corporations. It is a party of liars, pedophiles and religious nutcases. It is a party which values Jesus and loyalty over reality and thought. The Republican party is the sole party that has shredded the Constitution and the rule of law everywhere it goes. Everywhere. There will soon not be a place in the US where the Republican machine hasn't altered our once sacred way of life.
I used to think this would end soon. But now I see it's not possible until the entire system comes to a screeching halt.
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» Values Who?
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: Voicedude on Jul 31, 2007 11:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I never would have thought this would happen during this administration!
....oh!......wait a minute!.....
Yes, I did!
In fact, I set my watch to it.
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Posted by: mjm3iii on Jul 31, 2007 11:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The chairman of diabold electronic voting said on a couple occasions that he would see to it that the bush gets a second term. Bush got another term! I believe that he kept his promise!
Now Ohio claims to have lost? the election results??? Bushit!!! No paper trail? No election records??? No way to check any election results AT ALL!
Bush...your getting away with the theft of TWO presidential elections! The worst resident that never was!
The truth will come out! I just hope it's in my life time! I want to see that worthless sob thrown in jail big time!
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» RE: Where there's smoke there's fire!
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: makesenseofit on Jul 31, 2007 3:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And added recently is GEORGIA.
Am I pragmatic about this ? Yes, except for the rigging of elections or the connection to the president or his history of
activities and the other minions involved.
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» I agree, Makesense, but I won't VACATION in a red state.
Posted by: Ellie1
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Posted by: eddiecheese on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what i imagine is, the same republicans that orchestrated all these affairs (stolen elections and their cover ups) will continue with the mantra: Fuck 'Em. just like the medical community responds to the underinsured - or not insured.
ain't america grand! ain't capitalism the best!!!!!!!!
we should spread this around the WORLD!!!!!
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Posted by: Hirnlego on Jul 31, 2007 3:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Pelosi asks, "How do you know that?" King replies, "It's all over but the counting. And we'll take care of the counting."
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/peterking.wmv
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin
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Posted by: ruel005 on Jul 31, 2007 4:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rich and powerful have always dictated the rules of the game throughout history. We do have the freedom to point out the injustice and insanity of it all but, that does not change anything in anyway.
We may sincerely long for fairness, truth and justice but the dark side of our collective souls always get the upper hand. We have to "do what we have to do".
This nation was founded on lies, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and brute force.
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 31, 2007 6:53 PM
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Posted by: bird-ma on Jul 31, 2007 8:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those are enough reasons to have voter-verified paper ballots, optically scanned, randomly audited! And voting integrity activists are having a very difficult time getting the message across to election officials, legislators, and the general public who are ill-informed for the most part.
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 1, 2007 1:02 AM
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That being said, no amount of facts matters anymore to a nation who continuously proves to the point of absurd perverse sadistic extremes that when dominated by emotional illiterates, Xtian fundamentalists and other psychotic misfits, there will be no revolution until mass amounts of U.S. people personally feel the consequential pain in a way that will make all the insane rationalizations and excuses for their own and their "leaders'" behavior seem worthless. In other words... when pigs fly and snowballs are being used in hell, then all this fact shit will matter and things will change.
We're talking 'Merkuh here, I'm not gonna hold my breath. I can absofreakinlutely guarantee that 2008 will be "won" by a Bush-lit poseur. And once again, all the fact shit won't matter... because it's "Merkuh, man, land of the butt-stoopid led by the aristocracy's finest thieves and liars.
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Posted by: bikey on Aug 1, 2007 1:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Interested Canadian on Aug 1, 2007 4:22 PM
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I think Bush stole the election in 2000 and possibly again in 2004, but I haven't heard anything from Ohio's SoS or any other credible source to confirm the main point in this article. One story on Alternet isn't going to convince anyone who isn't already of the opinion that GOP stands for 'Gang of Pirates.'
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Posted by: rightiswrong on Aug 2, 2007 3:54 AM
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Posted by: rightiswrong on Aug 2, 2007 3:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Much evidence
Posted by: Interested Canadian
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Posted by: rightiswrong on Aug 2, 2007 3:58 AM
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» RE: Great
Posted by: Interested Canadian
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Posted by: Gerald on Aug 2, 2007 8:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A proportional representation system would change the entire complexion of the campaigning and electioneering. Here in California a proportional elected delegation might be something like 25 Democrats, 22 Republicans, 3 Libertarians and maybe an American-Nazi or two. Of course, delegates would have the right to switch their vote after two or three ballets didn't pass select a president. It such a system would be messy but look a lot more like citizen democracy, more fun too.
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» More Treachery
Posted by: PJAW
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Posted by: Darrell Kern on Aug 5, 2007 6:16 AM
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Blah, blah, blah- Bush, blah, blah, blah Bush.
Nothing gets done- nothing changes.
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Posted by: astromathman on Aug 5, 2007 3:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see:
Assume the chances of "accidentally" destroying the voting records is 1 in 1000. That's a WAY conservative estimate, based on how many sets of elections records have failed to be destroyed in various elections over the years.
Now assume the 56 instances were independent events. No way they could be connected, now, is there?! The probability of this happening all together would be 1 /(1000)^56 (i.e. 1000 raised to the 56th power). That's equivalent to a probability of 10^(-168), or 0.0000...001, where there are 167 zeros between the decimal and the 1.
Let's turn that around. What is the probability that someone is lying? That would be 0.9999999...999, where there are 167 9's. In more familiar percentage terms, the chances are 99.9999999....999%, with 165 9's past the decimal.
Part (b) (Homework) Repeat the calculations with the more realistic assumption that the chances of destroying the voting records accidentally is 1 in a million.
-------------------
[Answer: Probability = 10^(-336)]
--David Chandler
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Posted by: mommy64 on Aug 6, 2007 1:14 PM
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» RE: National Council for Policy
Posted by: mommy64
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Posted by: mommy64 on Aug 6, 2007 4:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
James Carroll, correctly, identified a condition "ineffectual detachment," which exists hopelessly.
Noam Chomsky, correctly, illustrated AntiSemitism that exists among some Fundamentalists, and Solidarity members.
Chris Hedges, aside from Christopher Hitchens, appropriately illustrated root causes for anti-abortion extremism.
An extraordinarily extreme movement preIraq war included pro-war, anti-abortion forces. No other.
It isn't difficult to track powers that enforced national harassment, UNchecked globalization, and accelerating, aggressive warfare. Voter irregularity is part of the over-all picture.
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Posted by: Libertine on Jul 30, 2007 12:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» We need that computer voting now. Then we 'dont need no stinking records'
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Once again Albrecht is wrong and uninformed.
Posted by: Ellie1
» Why No "Surprise"? Perhaps It's the Utterly Pathetic Predictability of It All...
Posted by: grumble-bum
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Posted by: hayduke1 on Jul 30, 2007 12:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the entire party should be relegated to the same dust bin as the Nazi party.
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» RE: corrupt to the core
Posted by: Spot
» RE: corrupt to the core
Posted by: rockstrigoi
» RE: corrupt to the core
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: danmonte on Jul 30, 2007 1:28 PM
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jul 30, 2007 10:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
plur
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» RE: ohio
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: nor cal surfer on Jul 30, 2007 2:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hot karlrove on Jul 30, 2007 2:11 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What else would you call a place where the voice of the people is supressed and elections are rigged?
What about a place where the mainstream media is a tool of the elite that own all?
Remember even Stalin's Russia had folks that would make up flyers yet that was not evidence of freedom.
What about a place where the ruling elite ignore the founding legal documents for the republic?
What about a place where your future is guaranteed to be worse if kept on the same path?
What about a place where the owning elites are activley arming via mercenaries ( Blackwater) to protect themselves form the onslaught of poor once the bubble bursts?
What about a place where any rights left are a sham and not absolute. The rights can ( and are) be taken away.
It's right here right now. 2008 will not change anything.
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» RE: IP Democracy USA
Posted by: Solar Wind
» You can't run far enough to get away from their agenda.
Posted by: Prophit0
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Posted by: socrates2 on Jul 30, 2007 2:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where I come from, where (and when) the will of a majority is killed/destroyed/sabotaged, that translates into treason against OUR Constitution. Pure and simple.
I am against the death penalty. So that leaves 25-to-life in prison for all convicted parties, conspirators and non-conspirators alike...
Instead, our elected officials have so little regard for our Constitutional WILL that the unholy offense of tampering with the vote becomes a simple felony or misdemeanor. That is all these white collar bureaucrats get IF AND WHEN they get prosecuted and convicted for this sacrilege against our popular will ("voice of the people, voice of god"). Recall: Most of the officials entrusted to protect the sanctity of the vote are either elected of appointed--ergo, politically well-connected...
So dollars to doughnuts the local prosecutors will tend to over-scrutinize the evidence before opting to charge these "pillars of the community." Compare them to true innocents charged with murder, rape or burglary who--before DNA evidence--were convicted on someone's flimsy "identification."
Today, with the evidence of vote-tampering "destroyed," the local DA may say, "Well, folks, I don't believe a jury of peers will vote to convict 12-0 on such flimsy evidence, so I won't file charges. End of story.
We need an authentic historical narrative that instills in the voter (citizen and juror) a true appreciation for the value and sanctity of their vote, only then can the juries appreciate the treasonous magnitude of the crime committed against the Constitution, the Republic and against the public will.
"Reader's Digest" and M.A.D.D. did it for DUI's and movies-of-the-week did it for sexual abusers, wife-beaters and other ethical lapsers. So let's educate ourselves, folks.
And let the criminals pay for treason. Treason, I say. Because when your political will and mine are relegated to the trash-heap by some corrupt official, there can be no other name for it--at least in a Constitutional democracy....
Good luck.
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» Treason indeed...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Treason indeed...
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Treason indeed...Personally I favor fair trials - and a lot of rope
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» If you're gonna commit treason, you better own the Supreme Court. They do?
Posted by: Sojourner
» "Treason" == Bullstchit!
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Elaborate on "Constitutional Treason" if you will
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: dayenta on Jul 30, 2007 3:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gellero on Jul 30, 2007 3:57 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 30, 2007 6:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bamboozled on Jul 30, 2007 11:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I were in charge of my county's election results, I'd personally deliver them, with as many witnesses from all major parties as possible, to a safe-deposit box.
You're telling me not only did they not protect these records, they DESTROYED THEM? That's not only criminal behavior, but TREASONOUS behavior.
Secondly, we need to have Election Day be a national paid holiday. It works in other countries, and it would completely change the country. Period.
Thirdly, we need hand-counted paper ballots. It's obvious from the hacking report that came out today, not to mention the horrific discrepancies in Ohio, WE NEED RECORDS.
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» RE: National Vote Holiday, Paper Ballots, and Fair Financing
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Jul 31, 2007 4:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No matter who wins the next, or the next, or the next election, nothing will change for a majority of Americans. Those who betrayed “the people” still control the political process and will never reform a system that treats them like royalty. They not only make the law, they are above the law, and that’s the way they mean to keep it.
When elections can be rigged with impunity, democracy is over.
It’s going to be interesting to see how “the land of the brave and the free” rationalize this reality.
.
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Jul 31, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Fire the elections officials.
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: ARREST the elections officials.
Posted by: channing
» RE: HANG the elections officials.
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: EKSwitaj on Jul 31, 2007 6:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
elizabethkateswitaj.net
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» Its a two party stranglehold on government.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Its a two party "may the best theift win"
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: antiapathy on Jul 31, 2007 6:42 AM
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jul 31, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all know its rigged. So, what are you going to do? Keep voting and doing nothing else? Your government does not listen to you... because your government does not care. Our entire system and thus our entire nation is in the stranglehold of two parties. You can keep voting for one of them hoping that they will eventually become "progressive".. just like the conservative Christians keep voting for Republicans because they think that at some point they will get those wonderful bans on abortion and gay marriage, etc.. that they will finally get the theocracy they want, but of course, they will never get it. And you will never get truly progressive democrats, either. They will mouth the words if they have to, but thats all. Just like the Christian conservatives you will never get what you want from them because they don't see it as the will of a democratic society. They see it as leverage to get you to do vote for them... and there is no way they will ever be foolish enough to give it to you and give up that carrot. Like riding a mule... you hold a carrot out in front of him to make him go... but as soon as you give him that carrot he won't go where you want him to anymore.
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Posted by: schnoggi on Jul 31, 2007 8:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: peacefullaim on Jul 31, 2007 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: channing on Jul 31, 2007 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Due to the current corruption in the DOJ, we cannot count on them to treat this issue Fairly, Impartially, or with Due Diligence, and for that, the DOJ itself should be held accountable.
A failure in this area of Constitutional Law will lead this nation on a path toward a New American Revolution because We are about to witness First Hand whether there is any Justice left in our Judicial Branch, woe to the US if Justice Fails Our Right To Vote!
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» Good point"now get a lawer to listen b4 bush get his life term in office"
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: helenwheels on Jul 31, 2007 9:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What always maddened me the most were the exit polls (2000 & 2004). Apparently, exit polls in the past were always within a few percentage points of the actual outcome, but suddenly in 2000 and 2004, there was a HUGE percentage disparity. I didn't read this entire article and maybe that touched upon the exit polls, but that to me was such a glaring thing that I am still flabbergasted it didn't warrant a much bigger investigation (or... one at all?).
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» RE: Just amazing
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Just amazing
Posted by: arclight
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Posted by: helenwheels on Jul 31, 2007 9:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Blackwell
Posted by: Jo1028
» RE: Blackwell
Posted by: tlv
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Posted by: arclight on Jul 31, 2007 10:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suppose part of it was that Blackwell would have been caught if he fixed the gubernatorial vote, since he had been 30 points behind Strickland in polls on the day before the election, but what about the rest of it?
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» RE: They simply could not rig enough votes in 2006...
Posted by: channing
» RE: So...what happened in 2006?
Posted by: srosenfeld
» RE: So...what happened in 2006?
Posted by: tlv
» RE: So...what happened in 2006? - Military/CIA coup
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 31, 2007 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all knew in advance that Ohio would be a swing state.
We all knew in advance that Christian/Republican operatives were motivated to make sure Republicans won everywhere in the state.
We all knew in advance that the owner of Diebold said that he would MAKE SURE that Bush was elected President.
All of this we knew in advance.
Now, we know that Rove's steamroller machine under the guise of 'voter fraud' was working overtime removing anyone from the Justice Dept. that the WH didn't like.
Now we see that a HUGE systematic effort was in place to remove evidence of wrongdoing in Ohio. This obfuscation effort was done despite federal rules in place to prevent such a task from being carried out.
It's obvious to anyone who is capable of putting 2 and 2 together that voter fraud indeed did take place in Ohio. But, it had nothing to do with Democrats. It had everything to do with Republicans and their efforts to steal the election.
The Republican party is one of failure, fraud and mythos. It is a party of authority, oligarchy and corporations. It is a party of liars, pedophiles and religious nutcases. It is a party which values Jesus and loyalty over reality and thought. The Republican party is the sole party that has shredded the Constitution and the rule of law everywhere it goes. Everywhere. There will soon not be a place in the US where the Republican machine hasn't altered our once sacred way of life.
I used to think this would end soon. But now I see it's not possible until the entire system comes to a screeching halt.
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» Values Who?
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: Voicedude on Jul 31, 2007 11:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I never would have thought this would happen during this administration!
....oh!......wait a minute!.....
Yes, I did!
In fact, I set my watch to it.
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Posted by: mjm3iii on Jul 31, 2007 11:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The chairman of diabold electronic voting said on a couple occasions that he would see to it that the bush gets a second term. Bush got another term! I believe that he kept his promise!
Now Ohio claims to have lost? the election results??? Bushit!!! No paper trail? No election records??? No way to check any election results AT ALL!
Bush...your getting away with the theft of TWO presidential elections! The worst resident that never was!
The truth will come out! I just hope it's in my life time! I want to see that worthless sob thrown in jail big time!
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» RE: Where there's smoke there's fire!
Posted by: Krain61
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Posted by: makesenseofit on Jul 31, 2007 3:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And added recently is GEORGIA.
Am I pragmatic about this ? Yes, except for the rigging of elections or the connection to the president or his history of
activities and the other minions involved.
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» I agree, Makesense, but I won't VACATION in a red state.
Posted by: Ellie1
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Posted by: eddiecheese on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what i imagine is, the same republicans that orchestrated all these affairs (stolen elections and their cover ups) will continue with the mantra: Fuck 'Em. just like the medical community responds to the underinsured - or not insured.
ain't america grand! ain't capitalism the best!!!!!!!!
we should spread this around the WORLD!!!!!
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Posted by: Hirnlego on Jul 31, 2007 3:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Pelosi asks, "How do you know that?" King replies, "It's all over but the counting. And we'll take care of the counting."
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/peterking.wmv
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin
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Posted by: ruel005 on Jul 31, 2007 4:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rich and powerful have always dictated the rules of the game throughout history. We do have the freedom to point out the injustice and insanity of it all but, that does not change anything in anyway.
We may sincerely long for fairness, truth and justice but the dark side of our collective souls always get the upper hand. We have to "do what we have to do".
This nation was founded on lies, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and brute force.
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 31, 2007 6:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bird-ma on Jul 31, 2007 8:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those are enough reasons to have voter-verified paper ballots, optically scanned, randomly audited! And voting integrity activists are having a very difficult time getting the message across to election officials, legislators, and the general public who are ill-informed for the most part.
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 1, 2007 1:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That being said, no amount of facts matters anymore to a nation who continuously proves to the point of absurd perverse sadistic extremes that when dominated by emotional illiterates, Xtian fundamentalists and other psychotic misfits, there will be no revolution until mass amounts of U.S. people personally feel the consequential pain in a way that will make all the insane rationalizations and excuses for their own and their "leaders'" behavior seem worthless. In other words... when pigs fly and snowballs are being used in hell, then all this fact shit will matter and things will change.
We're talking 'Merkuh here, I'm not gonna hold my breath. I can absofreakinlutely guarantee that 2008 will be "won" by a Bush-lit poseur. And once again, all the fact shit won't matter... because it's "Merkuh, man, land of the butt-stoopid led by the aristocracy's finest thieves and liars.
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Posted by: bikey on Aug 1, 2007 1:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Interested Canadian on Aug 1, 2007 4:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Bush stole the election in 2000 and possibly again in 2004, but I haven't heard anything from Ohio's SoS or any other credible source to confirm the main point in this article. One story on Alternet isn't going to convince anyone who isn't already of the opinion that GOP stands for 'Gang of Pirates.'
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Posted by: rightiswrong on Aug 2, 2007 3:54 AM
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Posted by: rightiswrong on Aug 2, 2007 3:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Much evidence
Posted by: Interested Canadian
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Posted by: rightiswrong on Aug 2, 2007 3:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Great
Posted by: Interested Canadian
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Posted by: Gerald on Aug 2, 2007 8:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A proportional representation system would change the entire complexion of the campaigning and electioneering. Here in California a proportional elected delegation might be something like 25 Democrats, 22 Republicans, 3 Libertarians and maybe an American-Nazi or two. Of course, delegates would have the right to switch their vote after two or three ballets didn't pass select a president. It such a system would be messy but look a lot more like citizen democracy, more fun too.
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» More Treachery
Posted by: PJAW
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Posted by: Darrell Kern on Aug 5, 2007 6:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Blah, blah, blah- Bush, blah, blah, blah Bush.
Nothing gets done- nothing changes.
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Posted by: astromathman on Aug 5, 2007 3:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see:
Assume the chances of "accidentally" destroying the voting records is 1 in 1000. That's a WAY conservative estimate, based on how many sets of elections records have failed to be destroyed in various elections over the years.
Now assume the 56 instances were independent events. No way they could be connected, now, is there?! The probability of this happening all together would be 1 /(1000)^56 (i.e. 1000 raised to the 56th power). That's equivalent to a probability of 10^(-168), or 0.0000...001, where there are 167 zeros between the decimal and the 1.
Let's turn that around. What is the probability that someone is lying? That would be 0.9999999...999, where there are 167 9's. In more familiar percentage terms, the chances are 99.9999999....999%, with 165 9's past the decimal.
Part (b) (Homework) Repeat the calculations with the more realistic assumption that the chances of destroying the voting records accidentally is 1 in a million.
-------------------
[Answer: Probability = 10^(-336)]
--David Chandler
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Posted by: mommy64 on Aug 6, 2007 1:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: National Council for Policy
Posted by: mommy64
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mommy64 on Aug 6, 2007 4:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
James Carroll, correctly, identified a condition "ineffectual detachment," which exists hopelessly.
Noam Chomsky, correctly, illustrated AntiSemitism that exists among some Fundamentalists, and Solidarity members.
Chris Hedges, aside from Christopher Hitchens, appropriately illustrated root causes for anti-abortion extremism.
An extraordinarily extreme movement preIraq war included pro-war, anti-abortion forces. No other.
It isn't difficult to track powers that enforced national harassment, UNchecked globalization, and accelerating, aggressive warfare. Voter irregularity is part of the over-all picture.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
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