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The Reality of Race: Is the Problem That White People Don't Know or Don't Care?

By Robert Jensen, AlterNet. Posted July 14, 2007.


A recent study exploring white peoples' understanding of the black experience in America reveals that whites still drastically underestimate the cost of being black because they don't want to know or can't face the consequences.

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"Study shows that white people are mean and uncaring"

That would have been my headline for a recent story from Diverse: Issues in Higher Education, which was reprinted on AlterNet, and reported an Ohio State University study of white people's understanding of the black experience (AlterNet's headline was "Whites Just Don't Understand the Black Experience"). Curiously, the psychologists who conducted the research spun the data in exactly the opposite direction, and the conflicting interpretations tell us much about race relations in the United States.

The researchers found that whites more accurately assessed the burden of discrimination borne by a hypothetical minority group in a fictional country than they did in the specific case of black people's experience in the contemporary United States. In the hypothetical, whites estimated that the minority group members (described in the same terms as black Americans) deserved $1 million in compensation, but when presented with the question in the context of black Americans, the median estimate was $10,000.

That result was not surprising, but I was taken aback by the conclusion one of the researchers drew:

"Our data suggest that such resistance is not because White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt or ethically flawed. White Americans suffer from a glaring ignorance about what it means to live as a Black American."

I think the data -- along with all my experience both as a white person and someone who writes about white supremacy -- suggests exactly the opposite:

White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed, because white supremacy has taken a huge toll on white people's capacity to be fully human.

My reasoning is simple: Given all the data and stories available to us about the reality of racism in the United States, if at this point white people (myself included) underestimate the costs of being black it's either because (1) we have made a choice not to know, or (2) we know but can't face the consequences of that knowledge.

On #1: To choose not to know about the reality of a situation in which one is privileged in an unjust system is itself a moral failure. When a system is structured to benefit people who look like me, and I choose not to listen to the evidence of how others suffer in that system, I have effectively decided not to act by deciding not to know.

On #2: If I do know these things but am not willing to take meaningful action to undermine that unjust system, then my knowledge doesn't much matter. Again, I have failed in moral terms.

In either case, white people have incentives to underestimate the costs of white supremacy, to avoid facing our moral failing. Rather than suggesting whites "suffer from a glaring ignorance about what it means to live as a Black American," it's more accurate to point out that we whites typically choose to turn away from (1) the information readily available to us, or (2) the consequences of the information we do possess.

Much the same argument could be made about men's assessment of the cost of being female in a patriarchal culture; or the way in which affluent people view the working class and poor; or how U.S. citizens see the rest of the world. In each case, there's a hierarchical system that allows some to live in privileged positions while consigning others to subordinate status. The systems are unjust, and hence the advantages for the privileged are unjust. There's no shortage of data and stories available to those of us in the privileged positions if we want to struggle to understand the lived experience of those without those privileges. If we willing avoid learning about that experience, or we know about it but fail to organize politically to change those systems, then we are responsible for the systems' continued existence.

So, is it too harsh to say that we white folks are mean? Uncaring? Morally bankrupt? Ethically flawed? What about men, the affluent, and U.S citizens?

My point is not to preach from on high. I happen to be a member of all four of those privileged groups: white and male, affluent relative to the vast majority of the world, and a U.S. citizen in a world dominated (for now) by a hyper-militarized United States. Because I have a job as a teacher that allows me to spend a lot of time acquiring information, I know a fair amount about the reality of all four of those systems of power: white supremacy, patriarchy, predatory corporate capitalism, and imperialism. As a result of that study and the privileges of my job, I spend a fair amount of time writing, speaking, and organizing as part of movements trying to undermine these systems.

But this doesn't leaving me feeling particularly upbeat. The more I study and organize, the more I realize that the system of white supremacy is woven more deeply into this society -- and, hence in some sense, into me -- than I ever imagined. That leads me to a little thought experiment, a twist on the researchers' study.

Imagine that you could line white people up in front of a door and get them to really believe that if they walked into a "race-changing room" they would emerge on the other side with black skin and an accent associated with blacks from the South. Then ask whites to set their price -- the amount of money it would take them to agree to enter that room. Imagine there was an attendant there with stacks of cash, ready to hand money to the white folks. Just for fun, let's say the cash award would be tax free. In that setting, when white people really had to face the possibility of being black -- knowing all they know about the reality of life in white-supremacist America -- what would the price be?

My guess is that a significant percentage of whites would not become black for any amount of money. I also am fairly confident that the median price set by the whites who might be willing to go into the room would be considerably more than $1 million.

In that moment of choice, which would get at the truth about white people think about being black, the problem wouldn't be that we whites don't know enough. We know plenty. The issue would be whether or not we had transcended the deeply rooted white supremacy of the culture. In that moment, we would find out about the depth of white people's commitment to a color-blind society.

I applaud the researchers for devising a study that tries to get at these difficult realities. But we must not fall prey to the temptation to interpret data the way we wish the world were. In this world, we struggle to transcend 500 years of white supremacy. The more we struggle, the more we learn about just how difficult that is.

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See more stories tagged with: race, racism

Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and the author of, most recently, The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege (City Lights Books).

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nice piece...
Posted by: sterlingdave54 on Jul 14, 2007 12:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
bravo. nice piece.......let the healing begin;)

» to quote Lou Reed: "I wanna be black"... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» The healing has failed. Posted by: zyxwvut
The difference
Posted by: Temporary on Jul 14, 2007 12:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If your...

white...

and RICH...

the world SMILES at you:)

If not...

Liberals sure like guessing...
Posted by: EagleMB on Jul 14, 2007 2:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My guess is that a significant percentage of whites would not become black for any amount of money.

And what is a guess based on a partisan agenda worth?

I also am fairly confident that the median price set by the whites who might be willing to go into the room would be considerably more than $1 million.

Really? Let's apply some logic to this ignorant comment. The median income for a non-hispanic white male in America in $49,000. So if a person worked a minimum wage job for 20 hours a week, they would earn $5,356 per year. If they invested that million dollars in a CD at 4.5% interest, they would now be earning the national median for a white male. Since about half the white men in America make less than $49,000 per year, and most of the white women do as well, it would seem that a majority of white folk would happily turn black, green, or blue for one million dollars.

But wait, you could certainly do better than 4.5% interest, and most black Americans work full time jobs or get paid more than minimum wage. So in reality, even more white folk would happily turn black for that kind of money.

But who needs logic when you have partisan agenda to keep!!!

» Partisan agenda? Posted by: maddy
» Sticks and Stones Posted by: Spot
» RE: Partisan agenda? Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: fire discovered in africa! Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Liberals sure like guessing... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Liberals sure like guessing... Posted by: sterlingdave54
It's Both
Posted by: JCrowe on Jul 14, 2007 2:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we wanted to know, we'd know. If we knew, we'd have to care.

» RE: It's Both Posted by: dlf
The description of white ignorance of black conditions is true. The example used is dumb.
Posted by: Sojourner on Jul 14, 2007 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wanting or not wanting to be black is a meaningless proposition. The whole point of equality is that people cannot change what we are born with. Racism is irrational.

The author's premise of some sort of objective measure is also irrational. Can you measure irrationality? Maybe. It's subjective, so one form or other of reliable tests might indicate attitudes, and a measureable degree of irrationality might emerge.

But the author's test of trying to put a price on an irrational attitude is the most unreliable test I can imagine. And it perpetuates the old mistaken idea that the condition of minorities totally depends on majority attitude. Yes, white ignorance is a fact. No, it is not the whole story. Stop muddying the waters.

Jensen is NOT a liberal
Posted by: frosty86 on Jul 14, 2007 3:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one reads Jensen's work (including this article), one can see that he works from a radical feminist, anti-capitalist, leftist perspective. He's one of the few people on the left who actually takes sex inequality seriously. He would say that in order to dismantle these inequalities, major transformations would need to occur in our most basic institutions and he tries to get at the roots of these problems.

Let's remember that both liberals and conservatives think that the structure of our society is basically okay, perhaps needing a few adjustments in the case of liberals. That's very different from a radical leftist perspective.

And let me also remind people that labelling an argument as a particular political perspective, as "partisan", does NOT weaken it. That does not address or respond to the argument. The widely-held myth that we can somehow find a neutral stance on these issues drives me crazy. We're talking about issues of inequality and oppression. There is no neutral position to take. If one simply does nothing, then one is allowing the domination to continue and is thus siding with those who are oppressing. No matter what position you take, you're going to be representing somebody's interests (typically your own, though not always), and you thus cannot be neutral.

» ??? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: ??? Posted by: mobile68
» RE:random insults Posted by: imcnotu
» well, uh... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» I'm not Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Jensen is NOT a liberal Posted by: ankhet
Put another way...
Posted by: Ashoka911 on Jul 14, 2007 4:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Given that the evidence that blacks have been a permanent underclass and that millions of people are in the "sample", then one is FORCED into one of two conclusions:

1) Blacks are indeed inferior ( of course few who believe that would take a public stance to that effect in 2007), or

2) Blacks continue to be subjected to , at the very least, institutional racism, if not somehing more malignant.

Neither of those conclusions are comfortable ones, which puts whites in a cognitively dissonant situation.....Lets watch football!

» RE: Put another way... Posted by: unionpete
Black folks, please stop stabbing me & robbing me at gunpoint
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jul 14, 2007 4:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of what little I own; please go bother those rich white people over there someplace. But I'll always support affirmative action, CORI reform etc. because there IS institutional racism...
and I promise that I'll take way more than a million dollars for turning black... uh, I mean, I promise not to take any money for turning black?... (this is as confusing as it was the first time this study came up on AlterNet: is it MORE or LESS racist to take a lot of money in this imaginary scenario?)

» I'll keep trying... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» how so? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Everything is not so Black & White
Posted by: corazon on Jul 14, 2007 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know several black Africans that can't stand black Americans because they see them as lazy, shiftless, and criminal. They don't socialize with them or date them. They see black Americans as whining and crying as their life passes them by. Meanwhile the average income and education of a black African has skyrocketed as they finish college, buy a home and Benz.
Black Africans still see America as a Land of Opportunity and have taken advantage of everything they can get, while a majority of black Americans, born and raised here, whallow in self pity.

» Perfect! Posted by: Torgo
» RE: Perfect! Posted by: jmooney
» RE: You are correct..... Posted by: ekipnrut
1.1
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jul 14, 2007 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Man must love the PC crowd and special interest groups, because they help him divide and conquer.

The .1 is for effort.

» RE: 1.1 Posted by: Tom Tele
We Can Reclaim Morality
Posted by: meggars on Jul 14, 2007 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm very glad to see this study revisited, because the previous Alternet article's conclusions were indeed weak. And I'm very glad to see Robert Jensen be the one to address it. I happen to live in the same town at this man, and I know he lives his convictions, he makes a big difference in our community, and I'd be honored to know him as an individual, if I could.

I think it is time for the left (however you define that term) to return to using language of morality. It has been our lodestar all along, and I believe we are far more moral than much of the right, if you define morality as being willing to act on behalf of others instead of primarily in self-interest. We were frightened during the 1970s by the prospect of religiousity governing our thinking, and so abandoned language that smacked of spirituality. But moral failings describes exactly why most of the human misery being visited on the majority of the world is allowed to continue.

I would suggest we avoid Christian terms such as redemption, forgiveness, and salvation in our quest to examine and reclaim our morality, because (a) those terms are often vague and (b) most of the world is not Christian. But there is language to describe this process, found in other cultures as well as, for instance, the 12-step process in our communities.

I'd say one thing further about why white people cannot honestly address racism: White is what is human. Non-white is (no matter how folks argue it) portrayed primarily as non-human. How can you imagine switching places with a non-human?

Here's an exercise that's extremely illuminating: For a set period of time (a week or a month), promise to include "white" in your description of every white person you talk about or refer to. We don't do it -- we don't delineate race except for non-whites. Try making yourself notice whiteness, and give voice to it. See what comes up for you, and for the people you speak with.

Thanks for the article.

» Jensen is no racist. Posted by: Tom Tele
By this logic, Ohio State's next study will be
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jul 14, 2007 5:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of a group of black people, to see how much money they would PAY to become white?

Then women, to find out how much they would pay to become men? (well the operation costs about $20,000 I've heard)... then they can start on us gays & find out how much we would pay to become straight???

» I've never heard what they charge for that Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Enabling Privilege
Posted by: Urstrly on Jul 14, 2007 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Supreme Court has just taken another step toward denying the existence of racism. The only color to which we are blind is white, and now we white people can hide in our little enclaves of privilege and let people of color struggle as best they can. Of course, the token college educated minority is welcome, but who can truly blame Justice Thomas or Condi Rice or Colin Powell for accepting the protection of being honorary white folks? We even extended it to OJ Simpson until things got out of hand. (And then we wondered why a lot of blacks applauded his acquittal.)This hideous administration has enabled white people to behave as racist while at the same time insisting that they do not. It's yet a part of the Big Lie that we have the most righteous nation on earth. I struggle not to be complicit, but it ain't easy.

» RE: nabling Privilege Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: nabling Privilege Posted by: lwbaby
if you are passionate about egalitarianism, what can you do?
Posted by: Suzon on Jul 14, 2007 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I lived in the LA area c. 1960-86, there was quite a lot that could be and was accomplished and it made for a very meaningful way of life.

One of the most vivid memories of my childhood is seeing a "Whites Only" drinking fountain for the first time. So overt racism is in the living rather than the historical past. However, the partical success of the Civil Rights Movement has blurred the picture to some extent. White doesn't always mean rich and black doesn't always mean poor.

Richard Wilkinson's The Impact of Inequality shows that in a hierarchy of dominance, your social status is a predictor of your lifespan. Thanks to the media, we see the contrast every day between the rich and the poor. Men on the lowest levels become violent and women tend to get depressed and pregnant. So we are talking about the poorest people regardless of color reacting to their situations as anyone would.

This is a man-made situation (I've seen it being created in England in the last 30 years) which can be transformed. But first we need the vision of a better future. How convenient it is for the powers that be that we have a war to distract and upset us!

jensen is an idiot and a racist
Posted by: EasterBunny on Jul 14, 2007 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i mean come on:
"White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed, because white supremacy has taken a huge toll on white people's capacity to be fully human."

is this why many whites support affirmative action, marched in the civil rights movement, try to convince other whites to be less racist, vote against racist politicians, teach their children that racism is wrong, help out non-white neighbors and coworkers, etc, etc? The claim that all white people are "mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed" is FLAT OUT RACIST. blaming ALL whites for the actions of some poeple who happen to share their skin color is, yes, RACIST. jensen should not be allowed to publish his racism on alternet.

» the current state Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: ver hear of "noblesse oblige"? Posted by: EasterBunny
racism isn't a shame or immoral, it's utterly stupid!
Posted by: olhsson on Jul 14, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Failing to take advantage of somebody's talent because of their eye or hair color is obviously absurd yet people will moralize about skin color rather than recognizing the extraordinary opportunity that has been missed by under-employing African Americans.

African American culture is none-other than the culture and values of our founding fathers. European Americans have suffered self-hatred for years and frequently sought out upper-class European fashion and art as something to define themselves with. It's amazing to watch people also project this self-hatred on African Americans.

I'm English/Irish and Swedish. By far the smartest people I have ever encountered happened to be African Americans. They were high school dropouts who were smarter than the kids I grew up with who graduated from Harvard, Princeton and Yale. They became pop music stars but they should have become some of our nation's leaders.

Racism has easily been a far greater problem for the nation as a whole than it has been for African Americans because we can't really afford to waste extraordinary talent.

We know what we can afford to know
Posted by: hagwind on Jul 14, 2007 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our material conditions and experiences hugely influence what we think, what we believe, and what we see -- they influence what we can afford to think, believe, and see. One way or another, we screen out what we can't afford to know. On the whole, this is a good thing. What if every time you climbed into your car or got on a bicycle your mind produced vivid 3-D images of yourself in a flaming wreck?

Privilege is nice to have. True, unexamined privilege looks a lot like stupidity, because it means you're unable to see and understand certain things that are transparently obvious to other people. As a result, women often treat men like dimwits, people of color may not have a high opinion of the intelligence or moral standards of white people, people outside the U.S. are baffled by the cluelessness of USians, etc., etc. Being considered a dimwit or a moral cretin isn't fun, and may elicit cries of "reverse racism" (or "reverse sexism" or "anti-Americanism"), but for most of us it's a small price to pay for hanging on to our privileges. Who cares what "they" think, anyway?

When was the last time you changed a deeply ingrained assumption or belief on the basis of a poll, a study, or someone yelling that you're a dimwit or a moral cretin? The big changes in my way of thinking have mostly come because my personal experiences contradicted my assumptions and because the circumstances of my life made it relatively safe to challenge and change my way of thinking: I didn't stand to lose my family, friends, home, or source of income. Sure, some people will risk everything for "what they believe is right" even when they don't have to. Most of us won't go that far, but we're continually testing the waters: taking little risks and watching for other people's reactions.

Finally -- for many affluent white liberals, race/racism is a much safer issue than sex/sexism. (Class/classism often isn't even on their radar.) Race doesn't follow them home the way sex does. (Yes, of course, many white people live in biracial or multicultural households -- but nowhere near as many as live in households that include people of both sexes.) They can pontificate about it and even call themselves racists without costing themselves anything. The people they pontificate at often have a different take on the issues, and with good reason.

I've seen this study...
Posted by: H_H on Jul 14, 2007 7:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It could've been interpreted in an entirely different way.

"In the hypothetical, whites estimated that the minority group members (described in the same terms as black Americans) deserved $1 million in compensation, but when presented with the question in the context of black Americans, the median estimate was $10,000."

This doesn't suggest "ignorance" at all. It suggests that they're generous when other people are paying compensation. If African-Americans were to be "compensated" they know it would come from their own pockets, regardless of whether or not it's even a fair thing to do. In short: they're acting in a way that a human being would act.

Does it make Jensen feel less guilty to say how awful other white people are?

Ive been telling you whites are out of ballance
Posted by: The Big Raven on Jul 14, 2007 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just reading the comments I can tell the trouble most have in dealing with this issue either you fall into the trap of which race is more intelligent or your over come with the guilt with either making or letting slavery destroy what little humanity any of you have left.
Let me make this simple even the most ignorant can understand anytime humans take from one another without asking and then invoking thier "gods" morals to make it allright so they can live with themselfs (for a while anyway it does catch up to us) and then using that religion of greed to justify our right to keep stealing and in-slaving others in the names of these gods and thier children (jesus)
It was allways about the greed ,ego, and just plain ignorance and really it still is I wish the frigging lot of you would go back to your real homelands and solve your problems there whites,blacks,yellows and who ever else GO HOME!

I've been critical of Jensen in the past but not this time
Posted by: daw13 on Jul 14, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Three cheers, Robert, for getting it right. Its about how people commit the Fundamental Attribution Error in order to resolve cognative dissonance. One can't acknowledge the real reason for one's aggression, so one attributes the deservingness of it to those who suffer.

I think the hardest thing for whites to face is our own patheticness. We're empowered only to be bullies. Few of us parlticipate in constructing fascism, we just benefit from it.

Castigating whites is not, unfortunately, an effective way to address their racism. Helping them to acknowledge their fears and insecurties may be. This lesson was taught to me by the most important mentor I've ever had: the Black vice principal of a school run by a racist white principal.

The myth of the meritocracy and the reality of priviledge and cronyism
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jul 14, 2007 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is really what it all comes down to. The central myth of the American experience is that of the settler - the brave and inventive soul, heading out into the wilderness with an ax and a covered wagon to meet his manifest destiny. The rugged individualist with the can-do attitude who overcomes any problems on his own.

The actual facts tell a less inspiring story. The settlers had to kill or drive the local Indian tribes off the best land, although smallpox and other introduced diseases had often already done much of that work for them. The short-sighted exploitation of resources has proceeded apace, and it turned out you really could cut down those immense forests and suck the Colorado river dry before it ever reached the ocean.

The same historical amnesia occurs with slavery. In the slave society, there were slaves, wealthy white slave and landowners, and poor rural whites. The typical ambitious young white man 'from a good family' sought to obtain land and slaves to work the land, and to become wealthy by selling the cotton, tobacco, hemp, etc. that was produced by slave labor. In order to be successful, the white man relied on a network of associations involving friends, family and various institutions. That was the basis of much of the American economy! Brutal slave labor and the genocide of the Indians who had been here for thousands of years - not as pleasant a tale, is it?

Not much has changed. Cronyism is how business gets done these days - it's all a matter of who you know. If black people are excluded from the smokey backroom deals, they won't accumulate wealth and power. The same goes for many other groups of people.

It's true that some things have changed since the days of the Old South and the Civil Rights Struggle. Some black people have been allowed into the higher circles of wealth and power, and have been maneuvering to create their own familial and social power structures (for example: Colin Powell and son Michael, the corporate telecom puppet on the FCC).

Imagine a slightly different old South, in which both wealthy whites and wealthy blacks could be slave and landowners, and in which slaves were replaced by indentured corporate wage slaves. That's what a lot of the world looks like today, with Chinese slave laborers providing cheap products sold at WalMart to a poorer and poorer, dumbed-down American population, while a handful of executives and other plantation owners grow ever more wealthy and powerful as a result.

However, the article misses the real problem in American race relations today: the war against the middle class. The dream of most of the immigrants and ex-slaves who built American infrastructure was not gross amounts of wealth and power - it was simply to join the middle class - to own a house and to be financially secure. Right now, more and more people are losing their homes, both black, white, latino, etc., due to the foreclosure racket run by the sub-prime lending industry.

Would it really come as a surprise to learn that black homeowners are routinely targeted by predatory lenders? Would it come as a surprise to learn that poor white homeowners are also prime targets for these scams? It's not racism so much as taking advantage of ignorance and poverty to steal people's homes.

Thus, a better title might have been 'the priviledge of wealth and class' or 'the new American aristocrats' or something similar.

Martin Luther King recognized that everything wasn't about race - he knew that you couldn't honestly oppose racism while ignoring poverty and imperialism. The subjects all go hand in hand.

Jensen is a professional racist
Posted by: EasterBunny on Jul 14, 2007 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He deliberately ignores vast differences in the degree of white racism. In between a violent klansman and a middle class liberal who has some racist notions there's a pretty wide gulf and that gap leads to completely different countries. one thing the people in the "all whites are racist camp" never seem to get is that IF that were true there would have been NO progress in america over the last 200 years. slavery would not have been overthrown, jim crow would not have been defeated, there would have been no civil rights movement, almost no african americans would be elected to any office (since they all have to count on SOME white votes), there would be NO affirmative action, no black middle class,no interracial families, etc. The reality is that whites span the whole spectrum from hard core racists to relatively non-racist to everything in between. a more balanced and nuanced view is needed but professional racists like jensen profit from painting everything in stark, simplsitic terms, so they ignore reality. then he thinks that since he is white he can get away with blatantly racist statements like:
"White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed, because white supremacy has taken a huge toll on white people's capacity to be fully human."

Another example of not taking care of our own
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 14, 2007 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another example of not taking care of our own ...
yet trying to take care of the rest of the world...

On negative comments
Posted by: sausage on Jul 14, 2007 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll wager that may of the negative comments to Dr. Jensen's piece were written by people who are the products of predominantly white suburbs. You know the kind of 'burb that prides itself on its "progressive," at least for big box retailers, outlook and commitment to diversity ("Why, yes, we have many African Americans living here, there's Dr. Stewart for one...can you think of anyone else?") I heard from so many people, even those identifying themselves as "liberals," that they moved to the 'burbs, not because they were prejudiced (Heaven's no!) but because of the schools.

Others of the bigoted-non-bigots who rail against Dr. Jensen's op-ed may come from one of the nation's dying-on-the-vine small cities--Like the one contributing editor Margaret O'Conner writes of in her piece "Black Teacher, White School: It's Always About Race," in this week's edition of Black Agenda Report-- or rural America. These islands of white poverty are as full of the hopelessness and economic dispare as any inner city African American ghetto.

I think that now, in 2007, the United States is a segregated as it ever was. I think this is due, in large part, a failure by liberals to address the ramifications ofSwann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education, the Supreme Court case that set the precedent for busing to promote racial integration in public schools. Liberals of all stripes, from Congressional Democrats to sociologists, haled the ruling as the panacea and primary tool toward achieving racial equality in education, never admitting that a stronger, political pallitive was needed. Of course this liberal inattentiveness played right into the hands of the forces of reaction.

The racial divide in this country is the product of lingering conservative racism and liberal good-intentions. The only winners are the corporate big-wigs and their hirelings in Congress, on both sides of the aisle, who stoke the fires of racism to keep the greater majority of Americans from getting a larger share of the economic pie.

SUGGESTION: READ "THE RACE MYTH: WHY WE PRETEND RACE
Posted by: thetruth07 on Jul 14, 2007 8:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EXISTS IN AMERICA" by Joseph L. Graves, Jr. From the book jacket summary: "A leading scientists proves once and for all that race does not exist. While the public debate over the existence of racism and affirmative action continues to rage, preeminent evoluntionary biologist Joseph Graves forever changes how we wil think about race. Graves argues that science cannot account for the radical categories used to classify people, and goes a step further to describe racism as an unintended consequence of evolution. He offers creative, innovative ways to bring true equality to America.
Proving once and for all that race as we know it does not exist, The Race Myth debunks the ancient fallacies that are still held as fact and perpetuated in all areas of life, from damaging medical profiling to misconceptions about athletes. Through accessible and compelling language, Graves reveals the impossibility that any group of humans now in existence has a separate genetic line of descent. The Race Myth also explains why defining race according to skin tone or eye shape is woefully inaccurate and why applying these false categories to assumptions about IQ, behavior, or predisposition to disease has devastating effects.
Demonstrating that racial distinctions are social inventions, not biological truths, The Race Myth brings sound science to one of America's most emotionally charged debates."

terrorist tatics works best when....
Posted by: eosrk on Jul 14, 2007 8:46 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...racisim is involved. That's how their idealogy gains teeth.

There's only ONE human race
Posted by: willymack on Jul 14, 2007 9:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite archaic dictionary definitions to the contrary and the influence of fools who don't know their ass from their elbows. We're ALL members of this species, and, therefore all on the same boat. The sooner we recognize the beautiful fact of our oneness and begin treating one another with the respect and dignity we all deserve, the better off we'll all be.

Not so surprising, if you buy into the notion that the worth of a man is the content...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 14, 2007 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...of his character, rather than the color of his skin.

The author sets up one false dichotomy after the other, mined apparently from the stuff that falls from the south end of a northward-gazing bovine:

My reasoning is simple: Given all the data and stories available to us about the reality of racism in the United States, if at this point white people (myself included) underestimate the costs of being black it's either because (1) we have made a choice not to know, or (2) we know but can't face the consequences of that knowledge.

Or, the people surveyed put less weight on the color of one's skin as the author?

Or, the people surveyed don't have such an irrational fear of "the other" as the author, and would be willing to alter the life in a very minor way for a rather trivial amount of dough?

Or, the results study speak to the heart of the results of equal opportunity initiatives?

Or, there were too few supremacist-types polled (KKK, NOI, etc.) who would logically respond that it would take many millions to change their sacred skin pigmentation, if for any price at all. Strangely, more of these responses appear to be the type that would make the author more satisfied re: "race awareness".

Fully awarnessedetized, indeed.

The short-sighted self-flagellation by the author is ridiculous:

But this doesn't leaving me feeling particularly upbeat. The more I study and organize, the more I realize that the system of white supremacy is woven more deeply into this society -- and, hence in some sense, into me -- than I ever imagined.

There's an error in analysis called information bias. To wit, if you desperately want to examine a phenomenon that you've invested yourself into believing with all your precious little heart, then you're likely to taint your interpretation with "discoveries" that--gee whizz--you were right on the money. It will also lead one to twist slightly more objective studies to suit your dogma/religion/belief structure.

My advice to the author and like-minded disciples of the same religion: Stop putting so much emphasis on a silly thing like skin pigmentation, and focus on the character of your fellow man. Do what Dr. King suggested we do; see the title of this post for more details.

» Dr. King?: Um, NOPE Posted by: maddy
» Sigh. I didn't "champion" King. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» More succinctly... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Quite understandably... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Quite understandably... Posted by: sausage
» That...err...dawg don't hunt. Posted by: ABetterFuture
Required reading for white people:
Posted by: morticia on Jul 14, 2007 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NATIVE SON by Richard Wright.

» RE: equired reading for white people: Posted by: dangerouslysane
We don't need no condescension..Hey!! Teacher..Leave Us Blacks Alone
Posted by: ekipnrut on Jul 14, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whites can't pass themselves off as the 'Deciders' of what is legitimate or rational or appropriate or relevant in the ongoing American racism debate. Recently another black Alternet commentator was so very eloquent in succinctly describing the cloying arrogant stench of white 'liberals' who presume to be more capable of interpreting black reality than Blacks themselves. Ah, here we have it [posted by MarcGarvey on 6/29/07 in the 'Whites don't understand....' thread]:And yeah, I know, blacks are too sensitive, paranoid and irrational. It's the same story everytime. Study after study reveals similar things and again and again, whites (not all but generally) say that the study is 'flawed' and that black people are irrational. This is the same (but high tech) version of racism from over a hundred years ago.Basically it says that black people are incapable of accurately interpreting their reality but whites are capable of accurately interpreting black reality. So black men and women are expected to STFU and wait for direction from a self appointed white leadership cadre... 'the good ol' boys/gals'. NO! We offer our perspectives on the living embodiments and reifications, economically-politically-and culturally, of our lives as we actually live them as opposed to speculation from some gated white bourgeois estuary or gentrified inner city raped condo. As a Black man , whites are my economic adversaries in a capitalist economy which has effectuated a commodification of
'race' beneficial to white exploitation.This isn't 'hate'..this is REALITY. The Corporate sports INDUSTRY..the corrections prison INDUSTRY...the entertainment INDUSTRY...the Social Services INDUSTRY. Multi billion dollar industries sustaining literally millions of white males and now 3rd generation AA white females in 75-250k/year jobs that exist SOLELY due to the blacks systematically exploited in their particular industry's activity. And Uhhhhhh..speaking of whites pimping the Black
experience for 'haute academe' fun and profit . Est cet homme Mazzocco blanc ou noir? Hmmmmm .....
THE COST OF BEING BLACK: White Americans' Perceptions and the Question of Reparations
Philip J. Mazzocco , Timothy C. Brock , Gregory J. Brock a , Kristina R. Olson and Mahzarin R. Banaji
BTW...As long as whites with at best marginal credentials, with respect to the manifestly econometric analysis required, continue to assume 'leadership' roles in the reparations matter...it will safely remain a goddamn 'question'.

» Pink Floyd? Posted by: veggiegrrrl
I am no expert on Dr. Martin Luther King. I visited the Lorrainne Hotel in Memphis. It was Chilling.
Posted by: yellow on Jul 14, 2007 11:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I saw the last room King would ever stay in and went to the Museum of Civil Rights. It was an eye opener for me. I know that there are many people with an abiding interest in the status of race relations in the US who continually try to re-invent Martin Luther King according to their personal outlook political outlook. I don't believe this is either right or constructive.

It is surely the case that MLK's "content of one's charactor" remark was never intended to eliminate race from political discourse about American history and society. He felt at the time that it was a critical part of the equation and central to grasping the general issue of social inequality in his time. But neither did he want to overstress race and create seriously unbridgeable divisions in the conversations that Whites and Blacks engaged in at the time of the Civil Rights Movement in America. The Movement King initiated brought forth broadly supported reforms that moved society forward and created a Black middle class which is still with us today. It helped all of society. Yet gaps persist. Much is left to be accomplished in the area of racial equality in America.

Both Malcom X and MLK believed that ultimately racial issues in the US were not really about race at all. These issues stemmed from the type of inequality that was fostered by repressive, bigoted and violent societies that had their founding in the contradictory tendencies of racist settler colonialism and slavery on the one hand and popular constitutional democracy on the other. American history has been charactorized by an ongoing struggle between these two historic contradictions. There has been a long enduring struggle to realize the democratic tendency against all odds obstructing it. The final outcome will be determined by people's ability to build a lasting committment to social equality that takes into account yet transcends American identity politics and builds an agenda for social democracy. I think that is what Malcom X and M. L. King both wanted. It is what most progressives regard as the best thing for America's future.

» Hi..... Posted by: ekipnrut
» BTW, what's a WOC. Posted by: yellow
» But .... Posted by: Tom Tele
All the comments are fine and ......
Posted by: rhinojos on Jul 14, 2007 11:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but when everything is said and done, all the races will still go back to where they live. Most often sectionalized from each other as if to say there is strength and security in numbers. Why are there still places in America referred to as: Mexican town, Chinatown, Little Italy,etc?

My experience with racism
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 14, 2007 11:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Born 72 years ago in Southern California to liberal white parents, I grew up in Texas, Louisiana and Florida where bigotry was institutionalized – i.e. separate public schools for black and white students, segregated restrooms and different drinking fountains.

Racism filled the air like an invisible stench. I will never forget walking home from high school one day and passing a gas station where a black man had died from natural causes (apparently).

Instead of calling paramedics, the station’s attendants had propped up the man’s body by the entrance for patrons to see. I saw flies buzzing in and out of his open mouth. All the horrifying scene needed was a sign hanging from his neck that said, “A good nigger is a dead nigger.”

Fast forward to 1957, when I was a student pilot in primary USAF flight training at Spence Air Base, Moultrie, GA.

One evening, myself and three 2nd lieutenant buddies drove to town for beer at a local honky-tonk. Passing the county court house in the center of Moultrie, we spotted a Ku Klux Klan recruitment meeting taking place on the front steps.

Curious, we parked nearby, walked up behind the crowd of rednecks and watched the intriguing bigoted spectacle. Carrying flaming torches, wearing white robes and pointed dunce caps with full-face masks, the KKK organizers were stomping back and forth on the top step. Women stood behind them, dressed the same way (you could tell from their breasts). I saw costumed children as well—tiny make-believe Klan members and future rightwing Republicans.

Their leader (a Grand Dragon, I think they called him) was using a battery-powered bullhorn to exhort the crowd to future racial violence, shouting epithets like, “Send the niggers back to Africa where they belong!” As if black people had come to America voluntarily.

Fast forward again, this time to Atlanta where I worked from 1988 to 1994 for Delta Air Lines. Not a day went by without someone in my training department shop telling a racist joke about “Norwegians,” the current codeword for "niggers.”

Bigoted Delta employees called the beltway around Atlanta “The Congo Circle” while the public transportation system – MARTA – meant “Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta.”

Yet, at same time, many of the racists’ kids in high school were happily commingling with black students, enjoying the same hip-hop songs and dating each other. You could almost hear the citywide gnashing of white parents’ teeth. I loved it!

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran and editor of the nonprofit website, King-George.biz, which features 50 cartoons, photos and other Bushwhacking illustrations plus the only hardcopy proof of White House corruption ever found on the Internet.

» RE: My experience with racism Posted by: YogiBear
how U.S. citizens see the rest of the world?
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 14, 2007 11:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... as an attacking horde of many colours no doubt.

How many times have I posted how EXTREEMLY racist Americans are? How do I know this? All Canadians notice this when traveling in the States. Just ask one of us. We notice it clearly... Americans are openly racist.

BTW, I'd LUV to be black. Being Irish my skin looks like the inside of a potato. How I'd love a cool shade of brown... though I'm tall and skinny so the danger of looking like J.J. Walker is a factor. :D

Government continues to perpetuate myths
Posted by: anothername on Jul 14, 2007 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm in a cranky mood today so I'm going to be rather sharp.

As a whole, our society has become one in which individuals care more about themselves than about the society, i.e., other people. Yes, there are still some people holding onto extreme fears of race, ethnicity, and/or gender, but I would wager that most people are not intentionally (and consciously) being biased.

I have talked with African American activists and had to tell them bluntly that some issues over which they are pushing heart attacks and strokes upon themselves have nothing to do with racism. There are far too many instances in which I have seen people with formal power, or even self-contained groups, treat any outsider as a problem, with no regard to race, sex, age, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion. However, I also have witnessed situations in which it was obvious that blacks were being excluded from participation, for example, when they seek rental housing.

As with blacks, there remain biases against women that cannot be explained away by any reason other than bias. (For example, studies done in the United Kingdom and in the U.S. within the past 10 years concluded that when all other factors were considered, about 25% of gender pay difference could not be explained by any reason other than discrimination.)

I get angry every time I go before a public body and want to talk about housing or environmental discrimination (e.g., rental vs ownership and private automobiles vs public transit). The laws and rules under which the public entities operate and permit operations do not allow standing based on general equity of representation. Oh, no. I can protest only if I can show that minorities, by virtue of their percentage of the area population, are being treated differently. It is not good enough just to show that transforming a 2-lane highway into a 16-lane highway will be bad for everybody's air quality.

Similarly, when I work with groups that claim to support women, I find that women are classified as being poor, uneducated, and probably pregnant. There is unwritten recognition that many women are moving from middle class, or lower middle class, standards of living down into poverty, but because they aren't carrying around toddlers or already have college diplomas, they are not considered to be in need.

Until our society stops forcing us to talk about blacks in terms of environmental injustice and talking about women in terms of poverty, we will never have equality in this country. That is not to say those issues should be ignored, they should just be talked about in terms of people, except where circumstances of gender and/or race do increase the likelihood or consequences of those situations.

worried about the wrong thing
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jul 14, 2007 1:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you are a black advocate I would stop worrying about "the white peril" and start worrying about the flood of illegal immigrants that are coming in. They will work even cheaper and are projected to demographically outnumber blacks. A lot of them are also Asians and many of these Asians are far more racist than any white person I have known.

» RE: worried about the wrong thing Posted by: EasterBunny
» the Flood Posted by: veggiegrrrl
He has some good points but...
Posted by: jlw771 on Jul 14, 2007 1:36 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with the author in the ignorance of white people. In fact, most people in this country are ignorant of anything outside thier small circle. However, I think it is harsh to paint all white people in the manner in which he has done with this story. It is true most white would probably not be black, but has anyone ever considered how many blacks would want to be white? The assumption that no white would want to be black could also have other motivations other than racism. Many blacks and whites that I know, and I know this is annecdotal evidence, simply like who they are and would not change. A study over pride in ones own race would be a useful companion to this.

Also, what about the black role in thier struggle that the author ignors. How do rappers, African American atheletes help to break some of the stereotypes associated with thier race? Why do black leaders shun and criticize African American role models like Bill Cosby who have some good ideas about how African Americans can improve thier own lot in this country?

I am not denyin racism, nor am I ignorant of the African American struggle in this country, however, I do believe that today there are ways in which the African American community, with their leaders and role models, can help themselves, but unfortunately, they fail in many ways.

Appleton14
Posted by: appleton14 on Jul 14, 2007 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since when are all whites "privileged?"

» RE: Appleton14 Posted by: carends
White and Racist, I beg to differ!
Posted by: that is me on Jul 14, 2007 3:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am white, have a biracial son. I grew up poor, never have been accepted by my town or peers. When I gave birth to a biracial son, God help me, things progressively became worse. I have seen both sides. Even before all of this, I never have been racist. Even though we are white, my family was poor. But we were taught that everyone on this earth is the same, regardless of what race we were. I only started thinking about the race, when I was attacked, and mugged by three black men. Basically they did not really hurt me, but they stole my purse, my emotional security, and left me filled with fear! But that would be the only reason I would think that way. Some of what I have been taught by my parents is coming back, but it has taken 22 years of counseling because of the fear to do that. My son understands, we have discussed racism constantly. He is a college graduate with a bachelors degree, so am I. And, no, I would not take any money to become black, not after what I have seen, and been through with my son. My heart goes out to black people, because, it is tough out there.

» If you... Posted by: YogiBear
It was swept under the rug for decades
Posted by: lafrance on Jul 14, 2007 3:55 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how much is the fact that the issue itself has been avoided for so long. After the uphevals of the 70s many issues like race and poverty went underground. No one wanted to talk about it anymore.
The myth was floated that things were fine now.
The tradegy of Katrina and the candidacy of Barack Obama has brought the issue much more to the forefront than it has been in decades.
the biggest question is if the issue will now be discussed, understanding the issue made public and it is not swept under the rug again.
Whites will not have any idea of what African Americans face unless they are made aware and open talk is encouraged as well as honesty. and no more sweeping it under the rug because it is not a pleasant topic for many whites.

Why,Why,Why
Posted by: renaestromain on Jul 14, 2007 4:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to say a few things. First I am a w/f/27 and I have been discriminated against as well. Discrimination isn't just against african americans, it's against all races, sexualities, denominations, and sex. I live in New Orleans and I have more black people being racist against me than ever, but do I cry? NO, get over it we're in 2007 not 1930. I was raped by a black male and you know what, it was a black investigator who said that since I was pretty I probably deserved it, but that's not going to ruin what I think of other blacks. My best friend is mixed, so get over it America.

» you poor dear....... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: you poor dear....... Posted by: YogiBear
RE: You're garage - typo?
Posted by: fork on Jul 14, 2007 6:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shouldn't that be, "You're a garage"?

RE: White are by nature evil and will never change.
Posted by: fibrowitch on Jul 14, 2007 4:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, what a nice racist comment.

If I were to say all Black people are stupid, or lazy, or deserve to be shooting and killing each other over sneakers and jackets I would be jumped on. But you can just throw out shit like this and expect everyone to just let it go.

I'm Italian, and while I know you do not give a shit, let me tell you about the Italian experience. We never kept slaves (unless you go back to Roman times) and when we arrived people tried to force us out. There was a riot in Boston and a convent was torched and the nuns inside murdered to try to 'teach us' our place.

The big difference, well I just kept plugging as did all of my race. That is another bit I want to mention, I do not know of any person who considers them selves white. I am Italian. Others are Irish, French, German, etc...

Are your parents NOI people? Is that why yer racist? You need some tutoring in writing and English.
Posted by: yellow on Jul 14, 2007 5:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Honey, you make no sense. Go get yourself a good education. And stop hating cuz it won't really help your cause.

RE: White are by nature evil (do you know mobile68?)
Posted by: EasterBunny on Jul 14, 2007 8:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i think you two would get along well. maybe we can set up a meeting. you can have coffee and a biscotti or two and share a good rant about the white devils. it could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

» Hey easterbunny... Posted by: mobile68
» YOU GO Lesha!!! Posted by: mobile68
RE: I’m not a white supremacist. I’m a black inferiorist.
Posted by: Lesha on Jul 15, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well actually the Phoenicians (not the Lebanese people), Arabians, Egyptians, The Babylonians under the rule of a black man named Hammurabi and many other black kingdoms had written languages long before whites were on the scene. As a matter of fact, while blacks had kingdoms base on law and order, whites were busy learning how to light a fire to heat up the caves they slept in. Even in the Bible, The first country mentioned in that book is Ethiopia. If these people are first mentioned in the Bible, they definitely didn't use sign language to communicate with each-other, they had writings on scrolls and whatever monuments they built and history will bare this to be true (now put that in your pipe and smoke it dummy).

Black trash come from white trash. Blacks in America did not teach themselves how to be trashy(this a learned behavior).

RE: White are by nature evil and will never change.
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 15, 2007 4:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another racist.

» Actually...... Posted by: ekipnrut
RE: White are by nature evil and will never change.
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jul 15, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"every advancement these people have made wither it be in Science, Mathematics, Agriculture, Engineering, and Government, came by way of bloodshed and stealing from other people (especially blacks) rather than going about acquiring information peacefully."

This is pure bunk. Although I suppose when one sets out to hate, it's always useful to totally revise history.

compare blacks to any other race
Posted by: White middleclass male on Jul 15, 2007 9:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who come out better?

RE: What the fuck?
Posted by: huggybean on Jul 15, 2007 2:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Must be nice to sit behind a computer screen saying such nasty things. But I would dare you to say it to any one of these Black Men face to face. Lesha said it right obviously such a small pea brain as yours can't handle the truth!! Oh, by the way you're the Nigger definition: Ignorant Person Yep fits YOU!

alternet hits a new low!
Posted by: EasterBunny on Jul 15, 2007 3:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
see what posting horribly racist articles by a clown like jensen does. it brings out all the crazy ass racists on both sides. we got 3rd grade dropout Lesha spouting out nation of islam "white devil" bullshit and the psychologically unstable ateo responding with crazy racist Klansman rhetoric. the editors should be shot for this one.

» RE: alternet hits a new low! Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: alternet hits a new low! Posted by: EasterBunny
To ateo
Posted by: Lesha on Jul 15, 2007 3:03 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm glad I was able to bring out your true feeling's. All it takes is to push the right buttons.

With that being said, why don't you express these views to the blacks you work with or the one's you pretend to like while knowing in your devil mind that you really hate their guts (you hypocrite). Maybe this will wake them up to the reality of how your kind really think.

RE: I don't care
Posted by: dlf on Jul 15, 2007 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Amazing they can tell all of that about you without even knowing you! LOL

» Would they... Posted by: ekipnrut
RE: I don't care
Posted by: Lesha on Jul 15, 2007 5:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well your ancestors created their current mindset, so now you must deal with it.

Must we continue to rehash this same topic, yet say nothing.
Posted by: fibrowitch on Jul 14, 2007 4:31 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I said so many times before. I would not mind changing my race, color whatever. As long as I can still be ME. The poor white girl who came from a family that did not believe in 'wasting school' on females. I put myself through college, got a dam good job, and made more in a quarter than my father made in a year.
I did not get knocked up and drop out of school, did not use or sell drugs as many of my cousins did. I stayed out of jail. The big difference between me and the other people on my street.
My father and mother were married, all of us had the same parents. When my sisters got pregnant, they married the guy, and are still married. My brothers never did drugs, and both got jobs out of high school. (one put himself through college as well)

My family came from Italy - legally I might add, in 1887. My father integrated his company, he hired the first African American for his work crew. He worked his way up from a ditch digger to a supervisor for the local utility company.

Each of us who has made it to the next level turn around and bring up someone else. I was mentored by a great teacher who turned my life around. And do not try to tell me how the school buildings are bad and the books are old so the students can not learn. I went to school in a building that was partially condemned, text books did not mention Pres. Kennedy and he died when I started school.

Whites are not raciest, they are classiest, as is every other person, the well off look down on the poor, the smart look down on those they see as stupid. The educated look down on those who refuse to get an education.

Even myself, I would happily live in a mix race neighborhood (oh wait, I do) but not a mixed class one. So I will change my color to black, brown, green or purple, it is not the color outside, it is the person inside.

» Class versus Race Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Liam
Posted by: Liam on Jul 14, 2007 6:30 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh boo- hoo! Let us all get with the victim fetish. Guilt ridden white liberals have done more harm to black Americans since the 1960's than anyone else. They have created the excuse to simply do nothing. They have created (along with the Sharptons and Jacksons) the "you owe me" syndrome - they have helped create a sub culture that instead of striving as a community to get out the hole they are in (yeah, yeah I know racism dug the hole!) finds the effort many blacks do put out... to be "acting white"
Gawd-look at BET for five minutes and see what kind of crap is being fed to young blacks. It is "cool" to look stupid, act stupid and be stupid Not that the crap fed to whites is too much better. The answer is economics. I live in a integrated neighborhood where we all get along because we all have basically the same education, the same income, do the same kind of jobs and are interested in the same class issues - take your victim crap and your white guilt and stick it!

Huh?
Posted by: fleurdelamer on Jul 14, 2007 7:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author claims he is white, male, and affluent. No kidding. REALLY? Gee, I coudn't tell from the absolute pointlessness of this article.

The author fails to consider
Posted by: zyxwvut on Jul 14, 2007 7:15 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that it is not simply a matter of changing a white person's skin color to black in that race-changing room. One of the reasons a white person might demand such a high price to do this, or refuse for any price, is they would come out the other side of the room butt ugly, with body and facial features that do not match with dark skin.

jk

Oooh, this is where the evil white woman
Posted by: lwbaby on Jul 14, 2007 7:18 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is supposed to say but but but I have BLACK FRIENDS!

Sorry to disappoint but I really don't have any black friends. Not close ones anyway and it doesn't bother me.

Sure, there is White privilege in this country but it is as important to me as I supposed a Japanese person in Japan thinks about Japanese privilege. It is what it is.

I am a 50 y/o white woman who knows there aren't that many years left so my focus is on my family, friends, community, job and hobbies. Things that make me happy in the time left. I have always believed that you should do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you and live by that accordingly, plain and simple.

The Great White Guilt Society has enough memebers. I picked up my marbles and went home years ago

People wake up from your slumber and comfort zones already!!!
Posted by: mobile68 on Jul 14, 2007 11:26 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
lib·er·al (lĭb'ər-əl, lĭb'rəl) adj.
-Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes,
views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

con·ser·va·tive (kən-sûr'və-tĭv) adj.
-Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
-Traditional or restrained in style.

Judging by the responses to the article above, I had to clarify what it means to be a liberal and a conservative, because it seems that some so called liberals do not get it when to be a liberal means to liberate one’s self from the mindset of "white supremacy" or “whitefare”.

It's funny how many whites believe that Europeans contributed almost everything, and that people of color contributed nothing. If you do not believe this then I would suggest that you take a look at the history curricula from K-12 and especially college level in America. If the real history was taught, there would be no more discussions about racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, etc., because people would wake up and say, “Never again!”

To demonstrate how the white mindset operate, consider how the white controlled media view people of color in the u.s. as minorities, Hispanics, Asian-amerikkan, Hatian-amerikkan, African-amerikkan, etc., while whites are branded as Amerikkan. While people of color bear the burden of disproving negative stereotypes regularly--when interviewing for a job, taking a standardized test, or merely driving in the "wrong" neighborhood, whites rarely, if ever, have to worry that the actions of other whites, no matter how horrible, will force them to prove that they are somehow different. We POC are just sick and tired of being told or reminded that what happened to us did not happen because they weren’t there or aren't responsible for what happened.

A majority of white people are unwilling or unable to engage in self-criticism and reflection if a conflict or a problem involves any possible error on their part. This is what the author is trying to address in his article. But when white people say or do something that is hurtful to others or self-centered, they seem willfully oblivious to the impact that this may have on others. When they are called on their actions, they promptly deny, ignore the complaint, or shift blame. And it's that willful ignorance that offends me most because it is a voluntary commitment to not want to know the truth.

For those whites who love to use Bill Cosby as an anthem to why blacks can never advance in AmeriKKKan society, it is not that simple as getting a group of determined blacks to plant the seeds of economic independence for the black community, let alone compete in a global economy without going back in history.

The so-called Big Men or Kleptocrats of Africa all had "made in the West" stamped on their foreheads. And those who failed to tow the Western line were either set up for economic failure or overthrown by Western intelligence. The same is true of blacks in the U.S. This "black aristocracy" of the Uncle Tom Nation of "accommodationists Negroes" were made up of those all too willing to accept Jim Crow laws in exchange for a reduction in the freedoms that had been promised but which were unlikely to ever be delivered.

So while us progressive blacks fight these internal and external issues of racism, are you white people willing to "liberate" yourselves from your "white privilege" and join forces w/POC to fight against this bush/chaney/clinton machine?

» a serious reply Posted by: EasterBunny
Meritocracy? Ha
Posted by: Sil on Jul 14, 2007 11:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I worked my tail off through, and paid my way through, my B.Comm at university - Finance, Accounting, Marketing, International Business. My roommate, and later housemate, enrolled in an Arts program - Philosophy, English, Literature. His family paid his way through.

My father is a geologist. His father is a bank manager. Guess who was the first to get hired, at a very high salary, by a bank after graduation.

The idea that we live in a meritocracy is a complete mockery, but I suspect the reason blacks have such a gap in income and general well-to-do arises from reasons such as this; not because Human Resources consciously picks the black over the white for the reason that they're white, but because these days what really determines, to an enormous extent, whether you will schmooze your way to a better position is if you kiss the right asses or know the right people. And blacks don't have much of a leg up in this regard.

» RE: Meritocracy? Ha Posted by: Sil
» As I've written above... Posted by: Torgo
There is NO RACE-or sex-or religion-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Jul 15, 2007 12:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is only THE RICH -vs everyone else in the world.
We are all the same- slaves to THE RICH.
They just figure out good ways to divide and conquer.

» in a perfect world... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
This guy needs therapy
Posted by: justanotherposter on Jul 15, 2007 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I went into this article with an open mind and by the time I finished reading it the only thing I can say about it, is this;

This fool needs therapy.

A lot of the guys I roll with are 1st generation immigrant Hispanic and Phillipino guys and they’re some of the best friends I have. But you know what? Not once have I ever heard them make sideways comment about me being white and we always roll together. Sure, we kid each other and make ethnic jokes with each other, but that’s what friends do, no matter who they are. The point is, we don’t see each other by race first, - but as friends first.

This kook on the other hand talks like some guilt laden catholic boy late for mass, “woe is me, woe is me, I hate myself cuz I’m white”. – And WTF is up with this condescending comment;

“White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed”

Yeah…uh huh…arrrighty there sparky, if you say so… Comments like that are not even representative of an educated, intelligent man.

Y’know, the above quoted comment just lost me right there. You can’t blame groups for everything, that’s not only impossible, the entire problem with racism is the same problem fools like this jackass have. They just do the same thing in a different way; they use blanket statements to describe entire groups of people as opposed to viewing people as individuals.

In fact, I don’t think this is even an article about race relations; this comes off more like somebody’s cry for help. I mean, look at this crap;

“Instead, we should atone for the genocide that was incited -- and condoned -- by the very men we idolize as our 'heroic' founding fathers.”

I mean, what’s this fool gonna do next, go flagellate himself for his “past sins” in the town square like a fundamentalist religious whacko? – One pill every 8 hours buddy…

I sometimes think people like Jensen are completely disconnected from the reality of most American’s daily lives, windbags like this sit in ivory tower offices milking their tenures into book deals and making observations on a world they are isolated from. An unfortunately high percentage of academia is good at playing the dole out game; they pick an issue and ride it for the length of their academic career, publish a couple books and at the end of the day, check their bank account. This has nothing to do with politics, it has everything to do with making sure Jensen gets speaking engagements and book contracts by playing out his neuroses in public.

Screw racism, racists and screw judging people on anything other than their quality as an individual human being.

Mr. Jensen, please pull your head out of where the sun doesn’t shine.

» Yo Poster.... Posted by: gellero
» Yo Grasshopper Posted by: veggiegrrrl
An African American female who met Jensen
Posted by: equity on Jul 15, 2007 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am really sick and tired of his posts. I found him to be a typical white boy liberal capitalizing on the "race issue." He is arrogant and pompous and out of touch with the masses. Today many individuals from a variety of backgrounds mix and have positive interchanges. In fact the American culture today reflects this. In my initial meeting with him- I became keely aware of his racial superiority attitude that he can't even hide. He needs to do personal work on himself instead going around making money and talking all of his liberal nonsense. Does he donate all the profits he makes to young inner city youth? Of course not. I believe white liberals like Jensen are far worse and damaging than any conservative or aggressive racist because his posture appears to be from a good place. Many African Americans are doing well and don't Jensen (racist) trying to frame our issues.

What a racist thing to say!
Posted by: slydad on Jul 15, 2007 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed, because white supremacy has taken a huge toll on white people's capacity to be fully human."

I find a lot of mean and uncaring folk in all corners of our society. But I also find good and kind people who don't make broad assertions about and entire race of people like the author of this article.

» RE: What a racist thing to say! Posted by: EasterBunny
http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
Posted by: thha on Jul 15, 2007 8:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Jensen Bashing: Why Not Try Understanding the Study in Question
Posted by: maddy on Jul 15, 2007 8:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of the posters herein who have done either of the following:

1. Pointed to your own beliefs or your own experiences as a white person to dismiss Jensen's piece; and/or

2. Attacked Jensen personally, trying to dismiss this conversation as "his" idiotic, liberal, radical, or guilty opinion.

I suggest all of you actually read the study to which he's referring. It was a statistically valid study of 1,000 white people. "Statistically valid" means that the results are GENERALIZABLE to white Americans as a whole within a scientifically accepted standard of error.

It's so easy to resist any discussion of the reality of racism by couching the conversation in terms of opinion, or by issuing childish attacks against any person who dares say that white racism endures. (Personally, I think the irony of this message board is that the posts continually reaffirm the study's findings: persistent ignorance, indifference, or (as Jensen argues) hostility from whites.)

It'd be nice if some of you actually read the damn study. Without defensiveness. Without an erroneous faith in your own opinion as an argumentative trump card. The data is quite powerful.

And, incidentally? It's not the first study of its kind. There are many scientific studies that document the persistance of collective white ignorance, indifference, and/or hostility to people of color and to the realities of institutionalized racism. Some others: Entman and Rojecki's The Black Image in the White Mind ; Jhally and Lewis: Enlightened Racism, Marty Gilens, Why Americans Hate Welfare .

» it's still weak Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Based on? Posted by: maddy
» You must have missed something? Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Guess what? Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Guess what? Posted by: EasterBunny
» Your personal facts... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Message Board Redux Posted by: maddy
» Perils of casting pearls ... Posted by: ekipnrut
» Maybe. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Quit defending this crap Posted by: justanotherposter
Here's a website for those whites who won't let go of the narcisstic blinders:
Posted by: mobile68 on Jul 15, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.reparationsthecure.org/
Don't let the word reparations scare you like the words colonialism and cotton do for me.

» With all respect........... Posted by: ekipnrut
» Kamau Kambon has a good idea... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Mmmmm......Scuse..Scuse.... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: You're wrong again mobile Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: You're wrong again mobile Posted by: mobile68
» In all seriousness... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: In all seriousness... Posted by: mobile68
^^^ look at all those racist posts up there
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 15, 2007 1:02 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... Alternet is a funny place. Apparently, people see articles about, oh say racism in the USA (a common topic), as an opportunity to stand up for what they think - and show where the article is wrong, stupid, liberal (and thus wrong and stupid), or whatever.

Really... you people are not only demonstrating how bigoted and ignorant you are, you're actually typing it out for the whole word to see. Hell, one guy even called for the death of the "white devils". Sounds like an episode of Jonny Quest (none of the fanboys in the RNC Internet squad is fooling me).

When people from other nations see Americans posting things like this, they are reassured that Americans still perpetuate ghettos, jail, police harassment and murder, and generally oppress all the non-whites AS POLICY. The idea that America has grown since the Civil Rights Movement is just another American myth perpetuated by the media. The reality is that all over America non-whites fear jail and death should a cop decide to pick you up, and they do every day and every night. Fascism in America has a lot to do with the colour of your skin.

The number of posts above that deny the truth of the black experience in America goes to show America has not changed, it's just managed to sweep it under the rug once again. Which reminds me... could someone kick Lou Dobbs in the nads for me? Really hard, I want that fracker to piss blood for a week.

This is a racist, sexist, anti-semitic, classist, xenophobic nation..
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 15, 2007 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a racist, sexist, anti-semitic, classist, xenophobic nation..

» for lesha- no point Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: for lesha- no point Posted by: Lesha
Unbelievable
Posted by: maddy on Jul 15, 2007 2:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To think I wasted even five minutes replying to your posts on previous essays on gender. A shocker: you are as racist and ignorant as you are misogynistic.

Seek anger management, please, if only for the sake of those poor souls misfortunate enough to have to interact with you on a daily basis.

RE: you need to take your medicine man
Posted by: EasterBunny on Jul 15, 2007 3:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
whoa, going off the deep end, are we?

Ateo...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jul 15, 2007 5:54 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ateo...
You need mental health, dude. Seriously. Off the fucking deep end.

Don't stop, Honesty is what we need from Whites like yourself
Posted by: Lesha on Jul 16, 2007 5:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
: White middleclass male Says:

"Just compare blacks to any other race. Compare Africa to any other continent. Blacks f@#k up everything they touch."


Well if the current state of blacks displays any truth to your statement, you have no one else to blame but your devil self (meaning your people) for interfering in the life of Africans. I highly doubt that you could provide any evidence of blacks being in the current state they're in, displaying such destructive behavior prior to whites infiltrating Africa or bringing us to this country to slave for your evil ancestors. The white race is second to none in ruining everything they touch. Ask the Indians who welcomed your type with open arms. Your devil relatives returned this favor by giving them smallpox along with killing as many of them as possible, all for the sake of land. Thanks to your people Africans, Asians, and Indians (India) now make up the majority of people infected with Aids that your doctors and nurses infected them with through using contaminated needles. I'm sure the people of Iraq would like to thank you for coming there and destabilizing their country and setting one group against the other (Sunni and Shiite). I wouldn't be surprised if your people are the one's who are behind those bombings. Talk about ruining everything thing you touch.

: White middleclass male Says:

"I wish the slave owners had killed every last one of them instead of emancipating them. How many blacks would be in the US if that had happened?"


Your following statement should be proof enough of the true feelings of whites throughout the country. Just remember your own words every time you tell someone who is black that you're nothing like your forefathers or that you don't hate anyone, just know to your devil self that you are lying to them.


: White middleclass male Says:

"Maybe its time the evil honkies make a new version of crack."

The more devilishment you display the easier my job will be in getting through to my people as to your your true intent. Please give us more.

Beware, angry white man syndrome exploding on Alternet!!!!!!
Posted by: mobile68 on Jul 16, 2007 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You white men got the world at your feet and you all are still complaining. Does it ever end with you spoiled brats?
You white "men" are are nothing but children in an adult body whose brain growth hasn't been keeping pace with body growth.

» lesha is so stupid it hurts Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: devilishment is NOT a word! Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: devilishment is NOT a word! Posted by: EasterBunny
Fecking ateo! he strikes again, and again... does he ever stop?
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 15, 2007 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ever notice how the biggest shits on a BBS are the ones that post the most? ateo so fears the world around him he can only attack strangers online from his, presumably, damp basement hideout.

... he's just a fecking little twat, constantly posting his outlandish ignorance and attacking people since he's far too cowardly to debate, discuss, or even talk to people. After all, as he clearly demonstrates, he hates people merely for their skin colour.

There is a legion of ateos online. Many well paid too.

Nothing in this article attacks conservatives or Americans in any way, yet here he violently vents his hate.

Disgusting.

I await his next sock-puppet account. ;D

Unbelievable?...Shouldn't be...
Posted by: ekipnrut on Jul 15, 2007 3:28 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's battle lines being drawn...not just here on Alternet but elsewhere...there is no essential difference between this guy (supra)and some of the other more 'erudite' white racist posters on Alternet.. they adhere to the tenets of racist white supremacist vermin no less than the crew over at stormfront. People need to be very ,very clear on that. There is no such thing as being a 'little' pregnant...or a 'mild' episode of child molestation...or "I only hit her once" (DV)....or I'm a neonazi Lite.,etc. A vote for the war with a whimper..or with a loud jingoistic speech was in both cases a vote for the war.
The majority of posts by whites on this thread have amounted to demonizing and/or marginalizing any black who advocates reparations for Black Americans, independent of the original study 'pimped' out by the white Mazzocco and then repimped by white Jensen. So you have a group, mainly white, some of whom are plainly intransigent racists, arguing about the commentary of the white Jensen who in turn is commenting on 'scholarly' work carried out by..surprise..surprise.. the white Italian 'soul brother' Mazzocco., i.e. a F'n three ring circus. Hold up..Hold up..Ekipnrut et.al. does a study on.. let's see.. 'Reparations for systematic age discrimination in the 40 to 55 years old white female administrative cohort'...something like that :O) Prof, 'Malik Totalblak' then writes an article discussing his interpretations (spin) of the work of his colleague Ekipnrut, that article in turn is posted on 'BlackWorld24/7-365y'.com' A few white women..understandably...say:WTF... "this is complete sexist MADNESS"...they would be absolutely right.

Alexander Pope was wrong, I guess
Posted by: YogiBear on Jul 15, 2007 5:03 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
White Americans are mean and uncaring, morally bankrupt and ethically flawed, because white supremacy has taken a huge toll on white people's capacity to be fully human.

This, "I'm white so I can speak for all whites" is hardly a convincing stance. One could likely accurately define it as racist. Racism -- a stereotyping of a people based solely on their coloring -- is not restricted to a person of another color.

Furthermore, his stance sets up a situation in which if one disagrees with his conclusion, one therefore must be mean, uncaring, morally or ethically flawed, any of which stem from one's incapacity to be fully human. Less than human, was of course, used often by whites to denigrate African-Americans and make them seem unworthy of their respect.

And even though Jensen includes himself in the mix, as somehow flawed as a result of his white, male, American culture, he nevertheless implies that only those who not only recognize that institutional bigotry exists, but also affirm the same recourse as he and his brethren do are worth of his and their respect, of being seen by he and his as equals, as fully human as he can be.

But he doesn't "preach from on high"

Does AlterNet want to discuss taboo issues of ethnicity/race? What about Jews & Whites/Europeans?
Posted by: Whitecliff on Jul 16, 2007 5:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Reality of Race: Is the Problem That Jewish People Don't Know or Don't Care?"

A recent study exploring Jewish peoples' understanding of the White experience in America reveals that Jews still drastically underestimate the cost of being White because they don't want to know or can't face the consequences.

» SOURCES Posted by: Whitecliff
I hate the arguement that white Americans aren't the only racists
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jul 16, 2007 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... because that's no excuse for blowing off what this article points out... the ongoing history of racism against the black community in the USA.

Sure, others are racist too. The French hate anyone not French. Canadians still murder First Peoples, Israel... well, you know.

In the US, there is a real history of oppression against a specific group, the black community. KATRINA! HELLOOOOO??? Any denial of this is just silly.

A request for Alternet
Posted by: maddy on Jul 16, 2007 9:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For any of you following this message board, notice that Alternet has removed many of the overtly racist (vile, in fact) posts of Ateo and Middle Class Male.

This essay was about convincing white Americans that racism is still a major problem in the United States, both personally and structurally, but that whites, whether from ignorance or callousness, refuse to acknowledge it.

How are whites going to get it if you cleanse the discussion of the most loathesome voices? White Americans need to reckon with the hostility that pervades white communities.

LET FOLKS SEE THAT VENOM, IN ALL ITS WHITE SUPREMACIST GLORY.

By sparing our sensibilities, you're actually furthering the problem.

» RE: A request for maddy Posted by: EasterBunny
Censorship and Alternet
Posted by: dbatterman on Jul 16, 2007 10:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just reading over these comments, there have been some vile, horrific exchanges. I was unable to read Ateo's original posts, but the snippets I did see were reprehensible. However, I will say that Lesha's commentaries, that are still up on this thread, are just as blatantly ignorant and completely racist in their own right. Her regurgitated Nation of Islam crap is just as bad as the KKK. If Alternet is going to censor, (which it shouldn't) then at least censor both uneducated, ridiculous extremes.
Overall, though, this whole charged discussion is because the author did a poor job and had a poor, divisive premise. As far as I'm concerned, the rich white and black folks who live in country clubs around my town get along just fine. They just want to keep the poor folks, white or black, out. No color among millionaires, you know....

» RE: Censorship and Alternet Posted by: EasterBunny
» Report comments you deem offensive Posted by: Joshua Holland
» By analogy: Posted by: ekipnrut
» Ok. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Correct...and...... Posted by: ekipnrut
Responsibility vs. Guilt
Posted by: PopRox80 on Jul 16, 2007 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just how do white people heal the wounds of the past? How can black people stand up and be an equal part of this country? When will we stop differentiating between skin colors?

There are those who think that slavery is a thing of the past, best forgotten because they are not personally responsible for it; then there are those who feel that we can never do enough to repay the black community to heal their wounds.

I think that the answer, as it most often does, lies somewhere in the middle of those arguments. No, I have never personally owned slaves, but I do reap the benefits of living in a country that was built on the backs of their labor, on soil washed in the blood of the often-forgotten American Indians, from whom we stole this land (yes, STOLE). So am I blameless as far as slavery and indigenous genocide goes? Personally, yes. But am I living the consequences of those events? You bet your ass--we all are.

So what's to be done about it? First of all, acknowledgment would be nice. Acknowledgment from us white folks of European descent that yes, our ancestors did a lot of shit that has never been answered for. A little understanding would be next--so many whites feel that slavery is over, done with, see ya, yet support the Iraq war because we suffered one attack that killed .00001% of our population. Doesn't anyone else see the disparity here?

It's like treating an alcoholic--admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery. Where to go from there is for someone more intelligent than me to say, and spelling it out would take too long in an already long-winded post, but I truly feel that the correct balance of responsibility and acceptance needs to be found before we can ever be truly healed as a nation. Don't feel guilty about slavery, but learn to question your long-held notions of entitlement, is all I'm saying.

That applies to everything, too. We question too little and obey too much in this country.

» You got this much right....... Posted by: ekipnrut
By Request, EasterBunny
Posted by: maddy on Jul 16, 2007 11:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You wondered why I have not condemned those who claimed that all whites are racist devils. Here goes:

1. Many herein have argued that Jensen is racist for saying most whites are racists. This is FALSE. “Racism,” as in one emerging from a person’s attitude, is the belief that some select group of beings is biologically superior to another. Today, such attitudes tend to get repackaged into “cultural differences,” but the implication is always one of superiority. It is absurd to call someone a racist because he tries to understand white attitudes in the aggregate .

2. One of the things that frustrates me is that whites, as individuals, often dominate any discussion about race with some version of the following: “I know that I am not racist, so, I therefore shouldn’t be ‘abused’ by this scholar’s unfair characterization ‘of me’, and, therefore, I shouldn’t have to understand or even read about the endurance of racism.” LOOK, this is a STUDY of white opinion, and, as I said above, it is not unique. Saving methodological concerns (which seem justified), its findings are consistent with many studies of white opinion. Whites, collectively, are either ignorant of and/or openly hostile to understanding the magnitude of racism.

3. Racism is NOT just about any individual’s belief. A better understanding of racism is that it operates institutionally independent of how anyone feels—or wants to feel—about it. It often does so based on unconscious conditioning that we *all* get as a result of living in a racist society. (See, for example, discussions about the privileges afforded lighter-skin blacks by blacks.) We must understand racism as something that operates systemically—who gets the best jobs, the best schools, the safest neighborhoods, the right to security, the presumption of innocence, and so on. If we truly understand how deeply embedded racism is then we also come to understand how selfish and narcissistic it is of any white person to FOCUS on whether or not they are personally implicated in these discussions.

4. An analogy.Imagine being in a German classroom, and your task is to teach the Holocaust. Preparations? You would probably start with a history of Hitler’s rise to power, perhaps with the Versailles Treaty. You’d probably try to get the students to understand how the Holocaust was made possible in slow stages, in which the Germans—as a whole—showed indifference or disbelief to the implications of various “steps” taken against German Jews. Now, imagine how much material you have to cover in order to get the students to understand the historical and political context that led to the Holocaust, let alone allow them to grapple with understanding the horrors of the event itself. NOW. Imagine that you actually get to NONE of that material, because 2 or 3 students in the classroom INSIST that the conversation focus on their personal exoneration. “I am not anti-Semitic.” (Did I say you were?) “You’re attacking me cuz I’m German.” (Why does this have anything to do with you?)

5. So, Why don’t I spend as much time critiquing those who argue that all whites are racist devils? Personally, I find such attitudes loathsome. Politically, I find them self-defeating. But, I also think that the historical record of European and U.S. conquest is pretty undeniable. Thus, I don’t think those kinds of blanket statements about whites matter much. In a white supremacist society, you will always have some groups who “fight” against it by mirroring its ugliness and simplistic logic. But, and this is a key BUT, that mirroring doesn’t have the social, economic, political, and historical weight that white supremacy does. It’s white supremacy—especially one embedded into socioeconomic status and furthered by capitalism--that matters in the grand scheme.

» RE: By Request, EasterBunny Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: By Request, EasterBunny Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: By Request, EasterBunny Posted by: EasterBunny
» Excuse me but......... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Correction EasterBunny part-2 Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Correction EasterBunny Part-1 Posted by: EasterBunny
» White devils Posted by: YogiBear
agree with Jensen
Posted by: ginarnold on Jul 16, 2007 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a 65 yr old white male, that yes, belongs to all four classes I can tell you that most white people have not a clue, what it is to be black-------especially in the south. It is much easier to talk about black crime and disfunction in the community than admit we have so much prejudice. If you think black people are not treated differently, dress mom and dad as black and then shop a few higher end shops. You will be treated differently. You may not have owned slaves but unless you speak out loudly against ANY form of discrimination you are part of the problem.

» RE: agree with Jensen Posted by: perri6
» RE: agree with Jensen Posted by: EasterBunny
Let us seek to empower the life-force energies and...
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Jul 16, 2007 9:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...if we can all try to be more understanding and not be overly judgmental and try to respect and celebrate each others' differences and articulate with each other that which troubles and divides us and strive to be forgiving and more openly communicative and thereby inculcating a more positive energy into the dynamic with an effusive sense of creativity as we disembark from questionable practices that may not lead to the most opportune sense of sharedness...

racism is terrorism
Posted by: anise on Jul 17, 2007 12:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
racism is terrorism

» RE: racism is terrorism Posted by: perri6
WILL THERE EVER BE AN ARTICLE OR A STUDY ON THE PREJUDICE OF BLACK PEOPLE?
Posted by: magiquarian1969 on Jul 17, 2007 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seen countless articles and posts about the black/white thing. I NEVER see articles that discuss the social prejudices that some black people have towards other minorities. Why is that? Talk about not wanting to know meaning not having to care.

» what you will not see on alternet Posted by: EasterBunny
The Art of Defending Racism
Posted by: perri6 on Jul 17, 2007 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it likely that race riots will be the thing that triggers martial law?
Posted by: mobile68 on Jul 17, 2007 12:37 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For white people, they are realizing that they are eventually going to become the minority in the world and it has really got their britches in a bunch. The Caucasian’s strong belief in white superiority has blinded them to the real issues of the day such as bush’s commutation of scooter libby, being lied into war, the falling dollar, having your privacy tapped into, exporting jobs out of this country, mistreatment of wounded soldiers by our own government, erosion of the constitution, lack of health care and morals, rising energy costs, and global warming.

Look at how the u.s. and western european contries have monuments of war heroes, but very few heroes who advocated peace. Look at how many holidays there are celebrating war victories than holidays celebrating victories achieved by peaceful means. Perfect example of this is MLK birthday. Most white people glorify violence. Look at how all this attention was being given to the Sopranos. And then one can see how that obsession with violence is filtered through sex and religion.

So call me a racist if you will, but at least my so called racist views do not bring death and destruction a group of people so that their decendants(of the oppessors) can survive and perpetuate off the misery of that oppressed group. If whites feel that prioritizing racism is more important to their survival then uniting together with all peoples to correct the wrongs that this administration have wrecked havoc on all, all over the world for the sake of humanity, then this world is in trouble because guess which countries holds the largest 'weapons of mass destruction' arsenals? Like a fellow black electrician told me, the whites that are running the unions will destroy the unions first before they let a black person become president of any of the unions.

White people will never understand that racism is government-sponsored terrorism. The only way they would understand is to feel our pain and that may be coming sooner than later because didn't Chertoff just said last week here in Chicago that he had a gut feeling that a major attack is going to happen un the u.s. real soon? Guess what? When (not if) it happens, martial law and suspended elections will be going into effect immediately. So to those white folks who are putting forth so much energy on hating a group of people who have never done anything to your people on a mass scale as a group or that just don‘t look like you in skin color, it's your own kind you better watch out for.

» RE: dumb and dumber Posted by: EasterBunny
» it's a he Posted by: EasterBunny
All the invective & disparing remarks about black folks does not suprise me
Posted by: techphile on Jul 17, 2007 3:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So lots of caucasians look down on us and think that their culture and so called civilization makes them better. In many of the comments I have read many comments trying to trivialize racism & prejudice from "progressives" and other latte drinking pseudo limousine liberals.

It kind of confirms what I have long suspected that we might be all better off separating and leaving each other completely alone. Just as I always suspected when it comes to matters of race the majority of caucasians all think alike. Its' a waste of our time for black folks to make other people accept us. The best thing is to separate and create our own without the interference of anyone else. I can understand how many women feel when a feminist issue comes up on alternet. Just like all other cultures based on oppression western culture will destroy itself. All that I hope is that it does not take my people with it.

» you got your own. Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: you got your own. Posted by: techphile
» RE: you got your own. Posted by: EasterBunny
IQ & race
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Jul 17, 2007 4:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
East Asians and East Asian-Americans have higher IQs than whites.

Yet IQ is supposed to be biased toward whites.

So maybe there actually is a difference in intelligence among races.

» RE: IQ & race Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: IQ & race -- how about both? Posted by: Pat Kittle
» RE: IQ & race -- how about both? Posted by: EasterBunny
Ekipnrut. I was listening to an NPR report on AIDS in Africa and thought about you and your views on
Posted by: yellow on Jul 17, 2007 9:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
circumcision. They had a UN expert on and he was NO Jew. He insisted that dozens of uncorroberated peer reviewed studies showed that Male circumcision lessened the incidence of AIDS contraction for males by 60% to 70%.

Got any thoughts on this bold claim?

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