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What Women See When They See Hillary

By Lakshmi Chaudhry, The Nation. Posted June 27, 2007.


Putting Hillary Clinton in the White House would shatter an enormous glass ceiling, yet many feminists aren't cheering at that prospect. Here's a look at how some of Clinton's most ardent supporters became her biggest resisters.
06272007story
06272007story

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"I love [Hillary Clinton] so completely that, honestly, she would have to burn down the White House before I would say anything bad about her!" exclaimed Nora Ephron in a 1993 Newsday interview. Three years later, she told the Wellesley class of 1996, "Understand: Every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you." Come late 2006, however, Ephron was the one on the attack as one of the self-described "Hillary resisters" -- those who believe that "she will do anything to win, who believe she doesn't really take a position unless it's completely safe," as she wrote on her Huffington Post blog, "who believe she has taken the concept of triangulation and pushed it to a geometric level never achieved by anyone including her own husband, who can't stand her position on the war, who don't trust her as far as you can spit."

This rather dramatic change of heart encapsulates one of the great ironies of Hillary Clinton's bid for the presidency. Many of the very same feminists who were her most ardent supporters as First Lady are now fiercely opposed to her historic bid to become the first female President of the United States. The woman once described by Susan Faludi as a symbol of "the joy of female independence" now evokes ambivalence, disdain and, sometimes, outright vitriol. The right wing's favorite "femi-nazi" now has to contend with Jane Fonda comparing her to "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."

So what's up with the Hillary-bashing? "Women don't trust Hillary. They see her as an opportunist; many feel betrayed by her," wrote Susan Douglas in a May In These Times article titled "Why Women Hate Hillary." A month later, in her Newsweek column, Anna Quindlen declared, "The truth is that Senator Clinton has a woman problem."

Not exactly true, as it turns out. Hillary Clinton was the number-one choice of 42 percent of likely Democratic primary women voters in a recent Zogby survey, compared with 19 percent for Barack Obama and 15 percent for John Edwards. And her favorable rating among independent women is a whopping twenty-one points higher than among independent men.

Let's be clear: Hillary has a "feminist problem," and more so with those who lean left.

At first glance, the fault line dividing feminists in their view of Hillary Clinton is merely a matter of ideology. On one side are the mainstream moderate women's organizations such as NOW and EMILY's List, facing off against more radical progressive feminists, especially those opposed to the Iraq War. Some of her supporters claim that much of the anger is inspired by her now-infamous 2002 Congressional vote. "It's about this one vote, which was not to invade Iraq but to authorize the President to wage war. I can't understand how this can be held up against a lifetime of important political work," says NOW president Kim Gandy.

Antiwar sentiments run high indeed, but when it comes to feminism and feminists, the "Hillary divide" also mirrors a deeper debate over the relationship between gender and political power. The ambivalence over Hillary's candidacy has just as much to do with increasing skepticism about the value of making it to the top.

"Having a woman in the White House won't necessarily do a damn thing for progressive feminism," writes Bitch magazine founder Lisa Jervis in LiP magazine. "Though the dearth of women in electoral politics is so dire as to make supporting a woman -- any woman -- an attractive proposition, even if it's just so she can serve as a role model for others who'll do the job better eventually, it's ultimately a trap. Women who do nothing to enact feminist policies will be elected and backlash will flourish. I can hear the refrain now: 'They've finally gotten a woman in the White House, so why are feminists still whining about equal pay?'"

Jervis's views were echoed by her peers on the blog Feministing, where Jen Moseley wrote, "As women sign up to work with anyone but Senator Clinton, of course, they're being asked why. That's the bad news. The good news is they're all giving the same answer. Being a woman does not get you the automatic support of women. There's no vagina litmus test, people."

Simply breaking the glass ceiling, once a cherished goal of all feminists, has lost much of its appeal, especially after seven years of the Bush Administration. Over the course of his presidency, George W. Bush has appointed women to some of the most prominent positions in his Administration -- all the while working to undermine women's rights across the board. So it is that we witnessed a fierce assault on women's reproductive rights even as Condoleezza Rice became the first African-American woman to make Secretary of State.

Opting for Edwards or Obama -- who are often perceived as more liberal -- becomes an attractive proposition for feminists who believe "gender is not the only thing, not even the most important thing in feminism," as Center For New Words program director Jaclyn Friedman puts it. "Hillary's not my friend. She's not actually progressive. The fact that she's a woman is an unfortunate red herring." Feminist principles may be better served, she claims, by electing a truly liberal candidate who will move us further toward a more progressive and therefore more equitable future -- an imperative that feels all the more urgent after eight years of Bush. "Things are so bad in this country, and the person we elect is going to be so important," she says. "The whole put-a-woman-in-the-White House seems too abstract and theoretical, a middle-class luxury."


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Lakshmi Chaudhry is a senior editor at In These Times and a former senior editor of AlterNet.

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So Hillary is unelectable?
Posted by: ateo on Jun 27, 2007 12:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yep.

Bring on the typical "boring white guy" candidate and stick Obama on the ticket as his VP and carry the '08 election.

Running Hillary is tantamount to throwing the election.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: And the new blood is... Posted by: willymack
» RE: seeing ANGER.... Posted by: Bozly
» RE: seeing ANGER.... Posted by: Lauren
Have you done the math?
Posted by: skoog5600 on Jun 27, 2007 2:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anyone done the math - Bush Sr. 4 years, Bill Clinton 8 years, George Jr., 8 years and now possibly another Clinton, you have got to be kidding me.

No more of this BS. I don't care if she's a woman, well actually I am not sure of that. Either way it's time for new blood!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Have you forgotten... Posted by: bob t
» RE: Have you forgotten... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Have you forgotten... Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: Have you forgotten... Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» solrev Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RON PAUL sexist and racist Posted by: goatini
» it is time for you Posted by: goatini
» look it up yourself Posted by: goatini
» Ron Paul Is Toast.... Posted by: CatDad
» RE: BTW i've actually met Ron Paul Posted by: kelly.nickell
» you talking to me? Posted by: goatini
» RE: Have you done the math? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Have you done the math? Posted by: chiquita1
» RE: Have you done the math? Posted by: CatDad
» Ron Paul is a nut. Posted by: justaguy
» No he doesn't. Posted by: justaguy
4
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jun 27, 2007 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point of this article is kind of blurry, but it seems to be saying what we knew all along: It doesn't matter whether the President is male or female if they're corporate bots like Hillary.

I mean, are we even sure she's a woman? She's cold, calculating, power-hungry, insensitive...If you want a real woman in the White House, find one who is warm, nurturing, sweet, caring...but can get very emotional and cranky at times.

I wouldn't mind seeing some real female qualities in the White House: Someone to scream, holler and nag until all those lazy goons get off the couch and fix some of the things that need fixing around here.

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Equal Opportunity class mercenaries is not fundamental change
Posted by: Perfectclue on Jun 27, 2007 4:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it is true the historical mechanism and principle of generic class corruption is and has been male biased, the birth of patriarchy, was itself the birth of class rule, where women and children, like captured slaves, were the property of men. Of course, the Egyptians, as taught in our history books, described this class process, as a pyramid analogy, where layers of class elites, artisans were sandwiched on top of the lower classes, the slaves who built the pyramids, but were themselves subordinated by a hereditary oligarchy, not necessarily patriarchical, because Egypt had not yet made its clean break from matrilinear relations, where women and male clans were still based on primitive communal egalitarian conditions.

The point here is that class rule, whether partly matrilinear or completely patriarchical, as a historical class mechanism in place for thousands of years, has reproduced this generic class corruption and betrayal of all social and democratic movements. So long as this class lever still functions, is in play, in position, where middle layers are corrupted yet absolutely needed as class elites, with their hierarchies, and class ideologies, as willing servile agents of corruption, for the oligarchy, it will continue to reproduce this class mechanism, because so far all democratic movements, socialist movements have only been national, and have failed to dismantle, displace this class lever which operates on a global, international level. Unless we recognize this fundamental relation, we will not have understood why the bourgeois, democratic movements of the Enligthenment and the socialist movements in the Post Enlightenment collapsed into class rule and decay, and the cycles of class degeneration from class republics to tyrants and Empires, which the ancient Greeks already observed.

The point? Fundamental change, real democracy can only be established through a social principle and mechanism, like this class mechanism, a fully developed middle class, without class masters, that actually does what all class societies, including corporate fascism falsely claim, the creation of a social principle, and mechanism which reproduces social wealth and real democracy. Thus we cannot have class parties, class ideologies, class elites, serving oligarchy. We must dismantle them completely and on a global international level. That means Hillary Clintion and Barack Obama, and the whole failed political class, could not, should not be the equal opportutnity class mercenaries, new faces, new forms for Corporate, class despotism. We do not need class thugs like Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice and Gonazales, nor the class whores like Hillary and Barack Obama, who service class Empire and class nationalism of both Amerika and Israel, and call their nuclear threats against Iran, an anti war position. Servility to either AIPAC, the Israeli lobby, or to corporate lobbies is not fundamental change.

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» One more question Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Learn to spell! Posted by: Conservasaurus
Honestly?
Posted by: Urstrly on Jun 27, 2007 4:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ask yourself: did Margaret Thatcher advance the cause of women? Certainly not if they were struggling economically. And remember that cute little war in the Falklands to prove how tough she was? The first women to break barriers are more like their male counterparts than we'd like. But as an anti-war New Yorker, who was treated rudely (by mail) when I first expressed my opinion that this war was a mistake and later in person when she turned away a delegation of sixty New Yorkers, I have no assurance that she in any way respects me as a constituent. She's wimped out on health care, taken tons of money from dispicable corporations, and she endorsed the Patriot Act. I'm not going to be brainwashed that any of this is going to help women as a group, especially the least powerful. This nation needs radical re-direction, and I'm looking for a candidate who can take us there.

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» RE: Honestly? Posted by: lydia cypher
About the Glass Ceiling
Posted by: EKSwitaj on Jun 27, 2007 4:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a bit more like a semi-permeable membrane, and if it happens to open up wide enough to let in a straight, white, upper-class woman-- and one who rose to national prominence because of her husband at that-- we're talking about expanding the possibilities for only a very small percentage of women. Now, I suppose there is an argument for gradual expansion, for taking it one step at a time, but what I see when I look at Hillary Clinton's candidacy is an attempt to buy off feminists who have opposed the war or have demanded equal rights for homosexuals (when it comes to marriage, for instance).

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Can't win
Posted by: Christian Southern Liberal on Jun 27, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The repub base will come out in droves to vote against Hillary. It all has to do with the media smear job during the Clinton administration. If Hillary gets the nomination, I will work to get her elected, but we will be beating our heads against a wall. I live in NC and this state is turning blue, it will go red if Hillary wins the primary.

The number one issue is focusing on the environment. We, as a planet, are in peril. No matter how much people want our huge corporations to continue to feed their investments in the stock market IT WILL NOT WORK. We all must breathe and the answer is to immediately put solar panels on every roof in the nation, subsidize farmers in windy areas to dedicate acreage to windmills, subsidize Plug-In Hybrid cars, start turning algae into biofuel, create a national grid, phase out all coal burning power plants (no new ones), and create an eco-friendly national mass transportation system. The candidate who can get on TV and repeat these solutions a million times will win this election. Our energy system must change, people do know this, and this is what it will take to win the 08 election.

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» The Repub base Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: The Repub base Posted by: hms2004
» No Underestimating Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: The Repub base Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: Can't win Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Can't win Posted by: solrev
» RE: Can't win Posted by: chiquita1
poppop - you may be right
Posted by: kelly.nickell on Jun 27, 2007 5:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You haven't commented here yet but I suspect you will.

I have been digging for a few days and I suspect that from a GOP perspective Ron Paul could be the right choice (no pun intended). If he were to run as an independent, which I suspect may happen, depending upon how committed he is to his free market principles, his record speaks volumes to me about how he would use what has become an extreme expansion of the presidential powers.

I think Ron Paul will have to abandon the GOP to make a solid run. Your Dem, Kucinich, I have on good authority, is bound to a strong set of personal principles as well.

I have been a Hillary fan for a while, but she is losing her luster as I see more of willingness from her to embrace the higher end idealism (read "corporate" interests) in an apparent capitulation to return favors for the flow of money.

As I dig deeper, I see that all roads lead to Cheney, so I'll quit calling Arbusto the president. I have suspected since 2001 that Bush had a hand up his backside as he appeared to be a sock puppet. I think we all know now, either directly or indirectly whose hand that is.

I think Hillary will become beholden to another hand in the sock puppet wars, as money trumps high ideals for the citizens of this country.

I think the trump card goes all the way back to becoming a butt buddy of Newt Gingrinch when they discovered that they stood on the same side of the healthcare issue. I wouldn't take a leak on Newt were he on fire beside me to put him out. When they fell all over each other it made me say "WTF?" and thus began my chalking Hil off my lists.

We need an executive that will voluntarily forego what Cheney has created in the demolition of sound government and expansion of executive powers. That person should see clearly what is at stake - constitutionally, institutionally, and governmentally - to keep the Cheney house of cards standing long enough to salvage our democracy, and return balance and importance to all three branches in an orderly manor.

The only problem is the SCOTUS; history has shown that some of our more conservative judges when placed in the court, became somewhat more centrist to left, as important decisions came up that could impact the populace as a whole.

I saw in John Roberts a possibility that this could still hold true. Alito seems to be a shill, Scalia -cranky, Thomas -unfit, and the rest practicing decent judgment, hopefully.

I think that very soon a great deal of our future will reside in these folks hands; lets hope that a few of the packed court will see it constitutionally, rather than through the shit stained glasses of Dick Cheney, as whatever new puppet we place in the Whitehouse discovers all the neato power that Cheney leaves behind when his little tin heart quits ticking, and the junk droids drop by to take him back to the deathstar for a refurb.

What a tangled web.

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article doesn't mention BIGGEST reason Hilary bothers women
Posted by: deborama on Jun 27, 2007 5:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I found it strange that this three-page article did not mention what I feel is the biggest problem women have with Hillary--she set a really rotten example for women by allowing Bill to make a fool out of her, cheating on her with a woman young enough to be his daughter, and then just sucking it up and taking him back. Their marriage is so obviously a marriage of convenience it makes me ill. Hillary's message to women seems to be: let your man do whatever he wants, humiliate you in front of the entire world, and still take him back because you need the money, the status, of being married to a powerful man. It's absolutely disgusting to me and the main reason I won't vote for Hillary. She's a throwback to the days when women would put up with any degradations just to remain married. She's not a modern independent woman at all.

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» You have it all wrong! Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» That's B.S. Posted by: gistre
» kelly: She's sexy, smart and ... Posted by: poppop_schell
There's something about Hillary
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 27, 2007 5:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary is smart. Hillary is tough. Hillary can be funny. Hillary can hold her own in a debate with anyone. Hillary can raise lots of money. So what does she lack? Perhaps we can start with principles. She has a hard time admitting she makes mistakes--witness the contortions she goes through in defending, yet backing away from, her vote to authorize the invasion of Iraq. Yet her husband lacked principles, as well--witness his co-opting Republican strategy in courting big business and giving a knock to the poor in his "workfare" programs; and we need not mention how he oozed sincerity in his denial of any "sex with that woman." But people still continue to love Bill, even as he cozies up to the Bush family and makes millions off his appearances. No matter what his transgressions, Bill can pull off being "slick Willy." That's something Hillary can't do. There is no "slick Hilly." That's what Bill has and she doesn't. When Bill cons us, we know it's a con, but we shake our heads and say, "That's just Bill." When Hillary tries to con us, we know it's a con and we hold it against her. That's why I don't think she'll win the presidency, even if she wins the Democratic nomination. She's just too sincere at being insincere.

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Women are jealous of and threatened by Hillary.
Posted by: gistre on Jun 27, 2007 6:21 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women can't stand a powerful, smart, successful woman, and they always degenerate into catty, factionalized mean cliques against such a woman.

It never moves beyond gradeschool for most women. Women are far more threatened by Hillary than any man is.

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» I beg to differ. Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: I beg to differ. Posted by: lisaisalefty
That's BS.
Posted by: gistre on Jun 27, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most women in America are in marriages of convenience and stay in loveless, even abusive, marriages for years. Hillary just did with Bill what they're doing in their own lives, and that's why they hate her so much for it.

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» *That's* BS. Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
Gender is a Red Herring
Posted by: Gravitas on Jun 27, 2007 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that the gender card is overplayed in Hilary's case. She exicted many people originally because we didn't know her and we had high hopes. Then she showed us more of her real self. She is a ruthless politician who will do whatever it takes to get elected. Besides supporting the war there was the bankruptcy bill. Can't place her name but an academic talks about how Hillary completely got how devastating it could be to the consumer. At first she was against it, then she flipflopped for it; ultimately she was not there for the vote either way. And if you are from the Hillary campaign scoping out public opinion, please let me tell you what my ultimate deal breaker is. I am a sociologist working against the stigma of fat people and the massive distraction weight obsession is to the American people. Hillary blamed obesity for the rise in health care costs without even mentioning the rise in profits of the health care industry. (They were huge!!!!) And her figures were OPINIONS not facts. What that tells me is she is willing to scapegoat the public to serve the interests of the corporate leadership. The war on obesity is extremely profitable and she has lots of BigPharma funding. She is just another cookie cutter politician who calculates how the American people can be use to benefit the power instead of served for the general good. Well I am tired of being scapegoated and manipulated. I will not vote for her now period. Even if she wins the general election, I will vote green, or another alternate party.

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» RE: Gender is a Red Herring Posted by: hms2004
» As a female who cares about issues Posted by: feduphoosier
» I took a look, but... Posted by: Sojourner
» Not my democracy Posted by: feduphoosier
Hillary and most dems...
Posted by: bob t on Jun 27, 2007 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...are little more than Rethug-lite, aka more of the same as the real rethugs.
If 'we the people' want someone different, someone who speaks the truth, no matter how unpopular, then there is but one choice.
Dennis Kucinich is that choice. And no I don't work for his campaign, I am an independant. Being an independant voter means to me that to get my vote both parties must work for it. I am no longer going to hold my nose and vote. Yes, anyone is better than a christo-corpo-fascist all of whom are willing to sell America down the drain.
I'm voting for Mr. Kucinich.
If that scares some of you then tell the dems to stand up for America and just do what is RIGHT. The Rethugs never will...

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» RE: Hillary and most dems... Posted by: clvngodess
» RE: Big Problem Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Hillary and most dems... Posted by: jmp3954
Another Clinton in the White House?
Posted by: willymack on Jun 27, 2007 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe. How bad would it be? Not possibly as bad as what we've got now. Think about it. We have a woman who's nobody's fool with a husband with two presidential terms behind him to give her good advice. Remember Slick Willie? He's the one under whose tenure we enjoyed a robust economy, record job growth, and eight years of peace and prosperity. Maybe this isn't perfect, but it's not bad, either.

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economic growth
Posted by: richholland on Jun 27, 2007 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our disapointment was that the GREEN politicians
in Europe simply became member of the system.

the other disapointment is now Europe has economical growth but there are in Amsterdam more homeless then the years before.

so big profits donot mean better life for the majority.

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Several problems with Hillary
Posted by: kmart35 on Jun 27, 2007 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What was with her big war hawk phase? Did she really think the war in Iraq was a good idea which is a problem or was she just pretending which is another problem? She was one of the last Democrats in office to admit that the war in Iraq was maybe not a good idea. And why didn't the Senators read some of the Intelligence Report before voting to give the President authority to go to war (she admits she didn't read it)? A few pages or a quick skim maybe? The first page or two? She won't admit to that vote being a mistake now, which is another problem for me.

I also think she probably has a good chance of winning the Democratic nomination, but about 1% chance of winning the overall election. I think the Republicans hate her more than just about any other candidate running and will be wheeling their grannies with oxygen attached to the voting polls to help ensure that she doesn't win! I think if she wins the nomination, we will probably be guaranteeing another Republican President, which would drive me crazy because after the last 6 years the Democrats should be able to elect almost anyone in the party at this point!!!

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» RE: Several problems with Hillary Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: Several problems with Hillary Posted by: oregoncharles
Bullies
Posted by: namaste on Jun 27, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am frightened for the future of America.

Everyone is so mean and nasty - even on the left.

You pick Hillary apart like a turkey carcass at Christmas dinner. As far as what she has "sucked up to" to get where she is today - well at least she found a way to make it through the attacks on her personally and politically. I do not know of too many women, or for that fact men, who could have withstood the hammering she has received over the years and still come out holding their heads up and on top to boot.

The schoolyard name calling of Hillary is too much and I am personally tired of hearing and reading it. Please grow up and give some logical reasons with facts for not backing her run for office - along with comparisons to the others she is running against.

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» RE: Bullies I'M WITH YOU Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Robber barons love war pigs Posted by: ScottP
» RE: Bullies Posted by: kelly.nickell
» RE: Bullies Posted by: vwaites
» RE: Bullies Posted by: oregoncharles
Women with clear vision (i.e rational minds) will see a female who:
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 27, 2007 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rode her husband's coat tails to national prominence.
Has no executive experience.
Screwed up efforts by the Clinton administration to get universal health care in the U.S.
Tolerated Bill's sexual exploitation of women including a young White House intern.
Shared in the $500,000 he got for treasonously representing Dubia in the U.S. ports takeover fiasco.
Backed the invasion of Iraq without studying the “supporting” intelligence data.
Believes American troops should remain in Iraq indefinitely.
Claims Bush has made us safer from terrorism than before 9/11.
Supports so-called free-trade agreements like NAFTA which are lowering U.S. wages and sending jobs overseas.
Promotes AIPAC interests in the Middle East.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. If you believe Slick Willie’s flyweight understudy should not become president of the United States, visit the nonpartisan website: www.STOP-Hillary.com.

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Hang in there Hillary!
Posted by: SackofWoe0 on Jun 27, 2007 8:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ah yes once again the so-called feminists are upset about a woman who has stayed the course if you will, with her marriage, her education, her experience, her toughness, her motherhood. Now honestly, why don't all of you back off and look at the rocky road ahead for this country and the world. Since I am sure a lot of you voted for that no class loser Gorgie Porgie, who kissed the Saudi's and made us all cry. And no it is not about gender, its about an intelligent human being, willing to put herself on the line and serve in public office. Do you all have the guts to do that? For all of us who were feminists, before the word made some of you a lot of money and you know who you are. I am a feminist and I will vote for Hillary.

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» RE: Hang in there Hillary! Posted by: vwaites
» RE: Hang in there Hillary! Posted by: lisaisalefty
» Feminism as tribalism. Posted by: justaguy
Hilary???
Posted by: ilene on Jun 27, 2007 9:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hilary or not, I will never vote with my vagina! As a female Californian, I'm not even that thrilled with my 2 female Senators.
Let's rid ourselves of all self serving, status quo supporting politicians regardless of their gender.

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» RE: Hilary??? Posted by: mrsmagoo
» RE: Hilary??? Posted by: opeluboy
otto
Posted by: otto on Jun 27, 2007 9:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't have a problem with Hilary being a woman; I object to her following which way the wind is blowing and, like her husband Bill, her over-friendliness with big money and the corporate world. Likewise with Obama, I'd like to have a real black candidate but his attitude toward Israel and the Palestinians turns me off completely.

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» RE: otto Posted by: chiquita1
Hillary's nomination would be a major mistake
Posted by: larryracies on Jun 27, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary owes the American people.

She has made herself unelectable. She fucked up healthcare reform for many years; her procorprate stance and her alliance with the DLC has turned off many Dems. ..And that's in addition to the loathing red state denizens have always had for her.

Her nomination would be a major mistake that Dems would live
to regret.

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» Hillary IS a neocon. (nm) Posted by: justaguy
Why liberals won't succeed
Posted by: edith on Jun 27, 2007 10:12 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if they really believe this kind of nonesense that was found in the foregoing article:

"On one side are the mainstream moderate women's organizations such as NOW and EMILY's List, facing off against more radical progressive feminists, especially those opposed to the Iraq War. "

Only in liberal-land could NOW and Emily's List be described as "mainstream".

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» choices rarely that stark Posted by: edith
» RE: Why liberals won't succeed Posted by: Joshua Holland
The Empire Pimps include both liberals and conservatives.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 27, 2007 10:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main contenders for the Office of the President for the past few decades have all been supporters of empire, and Hillary is no different. The candidates who dare to point out that US foreign adventures are illegal and amoral and generally damaging to the interests of the average US citizen are routinely ignored or shoved off the front page by the corporate media.

Given the recent Supreme Court ruling that 'protects the corporate right to free speech' - a bit of tortured logic by Bush appointees that ignores recent Court precedent - it's clear that the next Presidential election will be yet another farce - huge sums of money will be spent on attack ads, voter rolls are probably already being manipulated, and all the problems with the electronic voting system will also crop up. The US election is now largely run by private corporate interests who will do everything they can to throw the elections to their favored candidates.

What you are now seeing is an attempt by the American Empire to dig in and freshen up its image. "This is bigger than domestic politics", is what the empire managers have to say. This mentality, that foreign policy run by an elite class is far more important than populist domestic politics, is common to all imperial types. Other expressions of this mentality include "foreign policy is too important for the masses to vote on".

Really, the choice is between a foreign military empire with sham domestic democracy, and a real democratic republic that doesn't engage in war-for-profit. Hillary and Obama and the Republicans all seem to line up on the same side of that divide.

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I want to know who is advising Senator Clinton.
Posted by: Sojourner on Jun 27, 2007 10:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "People/Us/We" journalism that treats politicians only like celebrities gives me the yawns.

Look at the explosion of articles now about Bush Jr's "neo-cons." They were all there before we elected him. Yet I can count the articles on one finger that told us we were getting someone who already had a Mideast war planned because his advisors had it all drawn up.

What do Hillary's advisors have already drawn up? Yes, they do. The planning is already well underway. And what do her opponents have already drawn up?

Sorry for asking. I realize then journalists might have to do something other than read each others' PR BS. There used to be something called "investigative reporting" and was the reason journalism has special legal privileges.

I guess reporters would rather wait for failure so they can be muckrackers. Makes their job easier.

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» Thanks for doing the research. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: preventive research. Posted by: Ripcord
» Definitely a worth-it read. Posted by: Sojourner
Another article telling us how to think
Posted by: harpy on Jun 27, 2007 12:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over and over we hear that we're supposed to dislike or even hate Hillary. This is just more repetition of the con spin - women especially are supposed to hate her. She's not really much different from any other politico, most are pro corporate, even though they say they're not. But, as you tell us oh so subtly, women are supposed to hold other women to higher standards than men are held to and we're supposed to reject her. After all, she's a WOMAN!!! Just more of the same spin that all democrats are weak or nutcases, all liberals are wacko, and progressives are really closet communists, and a woman should know her place and would never stand a chance. Stop letting the right wing frame the debate and then repeating it as fact. I'm a woman and I don't dislike or like her anymore than any of these men that owe allegiance to corporations or interest groups because of donations. Stop telling me what to think.

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WHITE WOMEN! WAKE UP AND CUT THE CRAP!
Posted by: chiquita1 on Jun 27, 2007 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women are a numerical and voting age majority in the US. Yet white men decide the abortion issue and white women just tag along like the issue doesn't really concern them.

Given the misogynistic behavior of white men (who finance Rap Music and Rock Music with their Female hate Lyrics), it would seem logical white women would wake up, smell the coffee and TAKE CONTROL OF THEIR BODIES! Look at what white soldier did to Viet Namese women in the Viet Nam War and what they're doing to Iraqi women now! What? You don't want to think about it??

Well consider this...without the Abortion Issue and 'Gay Marriage', the RIGHT in this country has no political issues besides what color to paint their Harley!

The World is waiting patiently for white US women to wake up, tell white politician males and sour-faced females to 'Blow Off' and DOMINATE THE ABORTION ISSUE! The alternative is continued white female cultural and FINANCIAL subservience.

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Now HERE'S a damn good question...
Posted by: H_H on Jun 27, 2007 2:19 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If, as was said on feministing, "There's no vagina litmus test, people" or a woman wouldn't necessarily represent the interests of women, then what's with the feminist complain that women aren't 50% of Congress?

Feminists love to say that Congress is "male dominated", suggesting that men (regardless of party affiliation or beliefs) will not use their power to the benefit women. But here we are, seeing several prominent feminists saying that a candidate's sex is IRRELEVANT to whether or not they'll represent women's interests.

This is an excellent example of the dishonest, blatant opportunism of feminism. When you wish to make one point, say that Congress is male-dominated. When you wish to make another point, say that sex is irrelevant. Whatever works in any context, say it.

What bullshit.

I swear to god, I NEVER used to think that women were less-capable of logical thinking. Then I read some feminist writings and they were excellent proof that a lot of women truly can't think logically.

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A Woman in the White House
Posted by: opeluboy on Jun 27, 2007 3:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to see one, just not this one.

And I also have faith in the women of this country to vote on issues as opposed to gender. Yet there are an awful lot of Clinton supporters — even outside of the media and AIPAC — who happily ignore (or agree with) her terrible decisions and non-decisions, her warmongering and racism. They are determined to see a woman in the White House, and she's it.

She's already been anointed. Everyone else is just pissing in the wind.

I hear France is nice.

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Class Warfare
Posted by: magistre on Jun 27, 2007 4:33 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, I may sound like an old hippie but the one thing that keeps getting repeated year after year, election after election is: "Its not class warfare". Well, guess what?!? Thats all its ever been and now more than ever!

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To much same old politics.
Posted by: osd on Jun 27, 2007 4:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We do not need more of the same. Bought and paid for politicians. Enough of this horse puckey. Get rid of the bought and paid for by special interests, lobbists, Corp. and the banking system like the Federal Reserve. Time to be " By the People and for the People." This lying so you can line your pockets at tax payers expense, and suffering nothing for your bad behavior has got to stop. If the people in office now will not do it, then we need to find honest people who will. Get rid of the old bad apples that have brought this country down to a new low. Corp. wellfare is sucking the life blood out of America.

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Hillary electrifies
Posted by: Ingarose on Jun 27, 2007 5:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary is everywhere today. The bundits declare that she wins every debate. May be so, once upon a time I cheered for her too, no longer. Hillary is a war hawk, she is for big business,she loves Israel, she does not give one iota for middle class or working poor families.

Hillary reminds me of Paris Hilton. Hillary is famous because of Bill, Paris is famous because of her rich parents. Paris portrays a stupid blond, Hillary portarys a certain power she would love to have.

As a democrat I say 'no way to Hillary'. She graves fame and fortune just like mnay others.

Spare us from another Hillary and Bill. How about Dennis Kucinnich or Ron Paul?

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In the words of the immortal Madeline Kahn
Posted by: mazel on Jun 27, 2007 5:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Let's get down to bwass tacks."

Do any of you honestly think the next election is the right time to run a woman up the flagpole? Yeah, most of us here are forward-thinking, left-leaning individuals but I frankly don't believe that the majority of the voters in the US are ready to consider allowing a woman to take the helm, no matter how bad the last man was. Gender might not be an issue here, but it is in middle America whether we like it or not. I think if she wins the nomination she will lose the election. Do any of you really want to risk another 4 years of republican rule in the whitehouse for the sake of seeing a woman hold the highest office in the land? I sure as hell don't. I'm not trying to sound sexist--just realistic. So if I offended any of you I apologize, but I think the timing on this is bad and the whole thing will backfire.

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Why Hillary Will Be America's Next President
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 27, 2007 6:12 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like it or not, Hillary will be our next President. Corporate coffers are wide open and millions of dollars are pouring in for her campaign. America's ruling corporate and well moneyed elite are lining up in her corner. To her benefactors, Hillary has proven she can bring home the bacon. From supporting the Iraq war, to siding with the big banks and insurance companies, Hillary knows which way the bread is buttered. She had her past problems, such as with Healthcare reform, but, that only shows she was "forward thinking" to the healthcare corporate honchos - they will be certain to keep a big piece of the "pie" under any future Dem national health care plan (which also ensures the plan will fail due to escalating costs). As for Iraq and Iran and US war plans, Hillary will be taking her cues from Tel Aviv and AIPAC, you can count on that. Look everyone, because she is a woman does not make any difference. Condi Rice and Laura Bush are women, so what? We have to get past the nonsense and look at the positions and what the person stands for. Hillary is not a progressive

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BRAINWAHSED AMERICA
Posted by: unity1 on Jun 27, 2007 7:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it doesn"t matter who you vote for over there your elections are bogus - Hillary is a patriarchal puppet - the system is so male that any feamle who is in has to prove hereself a really good man - its part of the patriarchal way of dealing with the enemy - make her into a man - thats all she can be - the system could never handle true feminine value systems of caring of nuture of PEACE which is why it will NEVER happen

take a min to ponder this - political candidates get millions of dollars in campiging - millions of dollars are at stake - why would any one in their right ming leave the deciding factor of who will be president up to you the moronic and totaly unconscious public - they don't - wake up - your democracy (sic) is government by the filithy and imoral rich (read billionaries) for the fility and imoral rich (at your expense)

get back to work and stop trying to think

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» RE: BRAINWAHSED AMERICA Posted by: Krain61
Missed a point
Posted by: BlueTigress on Jun 28, 2007 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I haven't read all the comments yet, but the article missed what I consider to be the most important point about Hillary's campaign:

THE RIGHT HATES HER

They hate her with a deep burning abiding passion. Although I suspect that they hate her because they hate Bill.

If she were elected, any Republican rep or senator would vote against any legislation the Dems proposed out of sheer spite, no matter how actually sensible or relatively harmless it might be. Nothing would get accomplished and she would be reviled in the MSM (which largely reflects the conservative viewpoint) as a do-nothing President. Every little scandalous bit of news that came out when Bill was President would be dusted off and attached to her.

Right now, after all the complete and utter fucking-over of this country that Bush & Co has done, we can't afford that. We need someone who can actually get the country back on track.

I am not opposed to a woman being President. When I turned 35 and was asked how old I was I said "Old enough to run for President", which earned me a "You go, girl" from the president of the company I worked for.

Now is not the time for Hillary.

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Myra
Posted by: Myra MacPherson on Jun 28, 2007 7:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article missed two salient points. One reason feminists are wary is that she IS taking tons of money from corporations and pharmas that traditionally aide Republicans, plus has two major Republicans working on her campaign. [Read the Nation article on this a few weeks ago.] People say everyone has to do this to get elected but if a woman acts just like a man in this respect it is insulting for critics to play the "feminist card." If you wouldn't vote for her as a man why vote for her as a woman? This concerns the primary; in the national election many women who feel that way now would vote for her if she gets the nomination, given the track record of the Republicans.

The second point is that poll shows her leading among women with less education--who have been working too hard apparently to have time to read the fine print on her.

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Where you get your funds can come back to bite you.
Posted by: Susan Kipping on Jun 28, 2007 11:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A good question would be where has the money come from? It ain't pretty.

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Don't forget shopping
Posted by: Susan Kipping on Jun 28, 2007 11:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your right about get back to work, but don't forget to go shopping after work. After all thats what they want us to do SHOP and never, never think for yourself.

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If Clinton wins the election who do we all write in
Posted by: kmart35 on Jun 29, 2007 12:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
as our candidate when we vote? Because everyone I've talked to refuses to vote for her as President. Should we write in Obama or Edwards? I guess who ever isn't running with her as VP.

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NO to Hillary!
Posted by: mountainmama on Jun 29, 2007 7:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am one of those described in the first half of this article. To a T it describes me. I once supported her and was right there with her. Not now! I have vibes about her as bad as I had when Bush first ran and I warned people. She is bad news and MUST NOT get the nomination under any circumstance. Everything written that was said about her in this article in the first part, is absolutely 100% accurate. We cannot make her president in response to the evil Bush administration. I am a 63 year old woman who supports women's rights and a Democrat, but you 'd better believe that Hillary will not get my support or vote, it would be a HUGE mistake for her to get the nomination!!! It's time for people to vote morally and not politically for a change! Vote Kuchinich!

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Would you buy a used car from this candidate??
Posted by: macdon1 on Jun 30, 2007 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is nobody running today that I would trust enough to buy a used car from, let alone run the country. My late father was fond of asking that question when it came to evaluating politicians. Sad to say, in order to get elected a candidate has to serve the interests of big Pharma and all the other corporate robbers. No one who serves the interests of the people has a chance.

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Olga
Posted by: amysultan on Jun 30, 2007 5:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary is arrogant and a war monger, a very frigthening and dangerous combination indeed. If this is feminism then we are in very sorry shape. She is a phony to the core, as is her stepping stone, Bill. Being a woman is not the criteria. Being a fully developed, enlightened human being, with wisdom rather than ambition being the driving force, is the criteria for leadership.

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» RE: Olga Posted by: Krain61
In the intervening six months how many more have died in her war?
Posted by: ekipnrut on Jul 1, 2007 3:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women Own The Democratic Party
By Martha Burk, TomPaine.com. Posted November 29, 2006.
===========
Syllogism
Posted by: ekipnrut on Nov 30, 2006 10:20 PM
The consensus of the posters appears to be that Hillary Clinton is unable to win if nominated and unfit to serve if elected.....a more than adequate assessment of this embodiment of an essentially character flawed inanity, in any serious quest for a credible viable candiate, implacable in their advocacy of basic human dignity.
Unlike the Senator...who would be set upon by human wave
assaults from 'Remember the Whitewater" brigade(s) of Rethug white females while simultaneously suffering
(absolutely justified) mass desertions by rank and file white female progressives...indeed ANY white woman who isn't
two handed gulping the fuckin' DNC/DLC Kool Aid.
As for men...just substitute 'male' for 'female' in the above.

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JOHN EDWARDS HAS THE QUALIFICATIONS THAT "ALL AMERICANS" WANT.
Posted by: SALLY EVANS on Jul 1, 2007 8:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DO YOUTSELF A FAVOR AND VOTE FOR JOHN EDWARDS

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I don't care if your male or female but show your true colors
Posted by: Krain61 on Jul 3, 2007 5:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes go ahead and elect that women. Don't get me wrong if she able
to perform then fine. We have had nothing but crap since Regan.
Now let look at this! Clinton was in office and had the Patriot Act wrote
up thinking they would win with no problem or maybe they thought
they were going to loose and they new that Bush being the way he is
would put it in place for her since she declined to run during his second term.
So now when she come's in she has as Bush would of said it"Money to spend"
So she flops in the chair and given all that power and the war is already started
over yonder and bush has pretty much fucked us all she will use that power like
that woman that Ruled Russia!"I think her name was Cathern the Great"
Yea if she get's elected this country just might burn or atleast the people.
We have move back so far while other countries are moving forwards.
Look at the the paychecks of the majority and the jobs that are being made here.
She is like a snake. She always waits to hear what others say before she speaks
if she speaks at all. Why wasn't she pushing to get Bush Impeached?
If she had and morals at all she would of. I have yet heard one person running
tal;k about changing the Patriot Act or fixing the laws put in place to take our
right to due process or domestic spying or countless other thing.
Yea go ahead and vote that bitch in. I say the Republican and Democrats are cut
from the same cloth. They are just playing a game and we the people are the pons

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