COMMENTS: 250
Palestine: How Will the Hypocritical West Deal with a Coup D'état by an Elected Government?
June 18, 2007 |
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Who can we negotiate with? To whom do we talk? Well of course, we should have talked to Hamas months ago. But we didn't like the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They were supposed to have voted for Fatah and its corrupt leadership. But they voted for Hamas, which declines to recognise Israel or abide by the totally discredited Oslo agreement.
No one asked -- on our side -- which particular Israel Hamas was supposed to recognise. The Israel of 1948? The Israel of the post-1967 borders? The Israel which builds - and goes on building -- vast settlements for Jews and Jews only on Arab land, gobbling up even more of the 22 per cent of "Palestine" still left to negotiate over ?
And so today, we are supposed to talk to our faithful policeman, Mr Abbas, the "moderate" (as the BBC, CNN and Fox News refer to him) Palestinian leader, a man who wrote a 600-page book about Oslo without once mentioning the word "occupation", who always referred to Israeli "redeployment" rather than "withdrawal", a "leader" we can trust because he wears a tie and goes to the White House and says all the right things. The Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas because they wanted an Islamic republic -- which is how Hamas's bloody victory will be represented - but because they were tired of the corruption of Mr Abbas's Fatah and the rotten nature of the "Palestinian Authority".
I recall years ago being summoned to the home of a PA official whose walls had just been punctured by an Israeli tank shell. All true. But what struck me were the gold-plated taps in his bathroom. Those taps -- or variations of them -- were what cost Fatah its election. Palestinians wanted an end to corruption - the cancer of the Arab world -- and so they voted for Hamas and thus we, the all-wise, all-good West, decided to sanction them and starve them and bully them for exercising their free vote. Maybe we should offer "Palestine" EU membership if it would be gracious enough to vote for the right people?
All over the Middle East, it is the same. We support Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan, even though he keeps warlords and drug barons in his government (and, by the way, we really are sorry about all those innocent Afghan civilians we are killing in our "war on terror" in the wastelands of Helmand province).
We love Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, whose torturers have not yet finished with the Muslim Brotherhood politicians recently arrested outside Cairo, whose presidency received the warm support of Mrs. -- yes Mrs. George W. Bush -- and whose succession will almost certainly pass to his son, Gamal.
We adore Muammar Gaddafi, the crazed dictator of Libya whose werewolves have murdered his opponents abroad, whose plot to murder King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia preceded Tony Blair's recent visit to Tripoli -- Colonel Gaddafi, it should be remembered, was called a "statesman" by Jack Straw for abandoning his non-existent nuclear ambitions -- and whose "democracy" is perfectly acceptable to us because he is on our side in the "war on terror".
Yes, and we love King Abdullah's unconstitutional monarchy in Jordan, and all the princes and emirs of the Gulf, especially those who are paid such vast bribes by our arms companies that even Scotland Yard has to close down its investigations on the orders of our prime minister - and yes, I can indeed see why he doesn't like The Independent's coverage of what he quaintly calls "the Middle East". If only the Arabs - and the Iranians - would support our kings and shahs and princes whose sons and daughters are educated at Oxford and Harvard, how much easier the "Middle East" would be to control.
For that is what it is about -- control -- and that is why we hold out, and withdraw, favours from their leaders. Now Gaza belongs to Hamas, what will our own elected leaders do? Will our pontificators in the EU, the UN, Washington and Moscow now have to talk to these wretched, ungrateful people (fear not, for they will not be able to shake hands) or will they have to acknowledge the West Bank version of Palestine (Abbas, the safe pair of hands) while ignoring the elected, militarily successful Hamas in Gaza?
It's easy, of course, to call down a curse on both their houses. But that's what we say about the whole Middle East. If only Bashar al-Assad wasn't President of Syria (heaven knows what the alternative would be) or if the cracked President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad wasn't in control of Iran (even if he doesn't actually know one end of a nuclear missile from the other).
If only Lebanon was a home-grown democracy like our own little back-lawn countries -- Belgium, for example, or Luxembourg. But no, those pesky Middle Easterners vote for the wrong people, support the wrong people, love the wrong people, don't behave like us civilised Westerners.
So what will we do? Support the reoccupation of Gaza perhaps? Certainly we will not criticise Israel. And we shall go on giving our affection to the kings and princes and unlovely presidents of the Middle East until the whole place blows up in our faces and then we shall say -- as we are already saying of the Iraqis -- that they don't deserve our sacrifice and our love.
How do we deal with a coup d'état by an elected government?
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Generosity
Posted by: fallout1 on Jun 18, 2007 1:02 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: fallout1 on Jun 18, 2007 1:02 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas HAS agreed to abide by previous treaties and deals, including Oslo. Hamas HAS agreed to tacitly recognize Israel. They ONLY demand withdrawal to pre-1967 borders, just like the REST of the world and the long-agreed upon two-state settlement.
Why does Hamas need to recognize Israel's right to exist when they refuse to return the favor?
As Noam Chomsky points out, who actually cares about a "right to exist" ? No country has a "right" to exist in any legal sense.
Why does Hamas need to recognize Israel's right to exist when they refuse to return the favor?
As Noam Chomsky points out, who actually cares about a "right to exist" ? No country has a "right" to exist in any legal sense.
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» RE: GOOD POINT!
Posted by: wawa
» Hamas - Fanatical Islamics in control
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» False analysis as usual.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: fitzjohn
» Israel - corrupt and fanatical extremists out of control
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Israel - corrupt and fanatical extremists out of control
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» History starts the day Israel says it starts.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: History starts the day Israel says it starts.
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» So, you are arguing with Olmert about his own testimony.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, you are arguing with Olmert about his own testimony.
Posted by: fitzjohn
» The problem is Israel is the terrorist agressor ...
Posted by: pierrot
» Self defence! not terror ...
Posted by: pierrot
» The Fatah-Hamas conflict is THEIR INTERNAL business!
Posted by: pierrot
» Here's the answer...
Posted by: Fog
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: josephq
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: josephq
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: fitzjohn
» Hey Fallout, you've been asked for facts!
Posted by: fitzjohn
Comments are closed-
Mr. Fisk is right again!
Posted by: algodees on Jun 18, 2007 1:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: algodees on Jun 18, 2007 1:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Fisk has lived and worked in the Middle East for the last 30 years or so and knows what he is talking about. His latest book, "The Great War for Civilization" gives a very good history lesson about the region and is a must read if you really want to understand what is going on there.
We in the West should not shun and ignore Hamas. They are not going away and how do we change things without interacting with them. The Palestinian people did not elect Hamas because they hate the West or individually hate Israel. They voted for Hamas because they hated the corrupt Fatah government. In case you haven't noticed, the Fatah leadership over the years has done a horrible job of representing the Palestinian people. Nobody wants bad leaders and the Palestinian people were fed up with these crooks. How would you like to have been born in a refugee camp and still be there 60 years later? For the West to blackmail the Palestinians by with-holding aid and for Israel to withhold tax monies due the Palestinian people because we don't like who they democratically elected is unconscionable. How would we like some other powers to impose a corrupt government on us. It is bad enough when elect one ourselves.
We in the West should not shun and ignore Hamas. They are not going away and how do we change things without interacting with them. The Palestinian people did not elect Hamas because they hate the West or individually hate Israel. They voted for Hamas because they hated the corrupt Fatah government. In case you haven't noticed, the Fatah leadership over the years has done a horrible job of representing the Palestinian people. Nobody wants bad leaders and the Palestinian people were fed up with these crooks. How would you like to have been born in a refugee camp and still be there 60 years later? For the West to blackmail the Palestinians by with-holding aid and for Israel to withhold tax monies due the Palestinian people because we don't like who they democratically elected is unconscionable. How would we like some other powers to impose a corrupt government on us. It is bad enough when elect one ourselves.
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» The secular solution?
Posted by: edith
» RE: The secular solution?
Posted by: icj
» thanks
Posted by: edith
» In praise of Robert Fisk
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Classic cognitive dissonance....(Come in yellow)
Posted by: justaguy on Jun 18, 2007 2:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: justaguy on Jun 18, 2007 2:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....on the part of the west will allow this most instructive hypocrisy to pass unnoticed.
I noticed this watching some CNN and reading some of the Murdoch press that they were describing this as a coup.
It would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. This is a coup for the hypocrites and the murderers of USrael, Fatah and their pathetic enablers in the EU. I won't bother to even mention all those "liberals" in the US that won't speak up and challenge the ethnocide being committed in their name.
I noticed this watching some CNN and reading some of the Murdoch press that they were describing this as a coup.
It would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. This is a coup for the hypocrites and the murderers of USrael, Fatah and their pathetic enablers in the EU. I won't bother to even mention all those "liberals" in the US that won't speak up and challenge the ethnocide being committed in their name.
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» The Jews didn't initiate colonialism although the west uses the exodus narrative as a paradigm of
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Standby for violent action against Hamas.
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 18, 2007 2:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 18, 2007 2:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before AlterNet do-gooders accuse me of being anti-Semitic, as someone who visited Dachau and the Ann Frank House while touring Europe, I used to be an ardent backer of Israel -- when it followed humanistic Hebrew law. Now, sadly, because of the extremist Likud Party, Israel’s version of the rightwing GOP, King David's once righteous warriors have become cowardly neocons like their PNAC and CPD counterparts in America.
Case at point, Israel using helicopter gunships to kill innocent civilians in Palestine and doing the same thing in Lebanon last year with IDF cluster bombs and 2,000-lb depleted uranium bunker busters. How can anyone defend those horrific tactics?
They can't, but President Bush did -- to the point of rushing 100 bunker busters to Israel last summer for use against Hezbollah neighborhoods in Lebanon. Quite cearly he’s a born-again bigot who believes Jews are God’s chosen people while Muslims are inferior.
Consider a Bush-inspired event in 2003. On April 7 of that year, under standing orders from George W., a B1 bomber carried out a decapitation strike on a Baghdad restaurant where Saddam Hussein was eating a late lunch. Reportedly.
Shortly after the mission began, the Ace of Spades, suspecting he had been betrayed by someone on his staff, slipped out of the al-Sa’ah restaurant’s backdoor and fled the scene. Ten minutes later, four bunker busters dropped by the diverted bomber blew the suburban eatery to bits along with cooks, waiters, bus boys, customers, cashier, pedestrians passing by and the occupants of three nearby homes.
Fourteen civilians died in that Baghdad neighborhood on April 7, people who lost their lives simply for being there, including two young children. Yet back in the United States, few Americans protested the barbaric aspect of the B1 mission, not on TV or in the press anyway. Quite the contrary, there was glorification of Bush’s decision to “take out Saddam,” as so many in his administration enjoyed saying.
To excuse our cowboy commander-in-chief, Republicans will argue he didn’t give orders to the B1 crew; someone else did. But that reason won’t wash, either. As our nation’s top military leader who authorized the decapitation strike, he has blood on his hands just like Osama bin Laden.
Here’s the nexus in a nutshell. For the loved ones of 9/11 victims, it’s heart wrenching to hear but must be said. If you believe as I do that human lives are precious, especially those of children who deserve an opportunity to grow up and have kids of their own, then we must face the truth no matter how painful. Other than motivation, the only difference between a B1 dropping bombs on a civilian restaurant from 30,000 feet and someone flying a jetliner into an office building is the number of people that die.
As an addendum to this tawdry tale, in 2004, President Bush was asked during a press conference about a retaliatory air assault against Syria by Israeli jets. The reason for the revenge mission was a Hamas suicide bombing of a crowded Jewish eating establishment that killed 20 people.
When questioned by a White House reporter if the Israeli raid was justified, Bush glowered and replied sternly, “When Hamas blows up a restaurant with civilians inside, that’s terrorism.”
I kid you not. I heard him say that with my own ears. Those were the exact words spoken by George bin Laden.
Now I ask you. In light of Bush’s arrogant superior attitude towards Muslims, can we expect him to deal fairly with the Palestinian territories’ democratically elected government?
The answer should be obvious. Standby for violent, Bush-instigated action by Israel againt Hamas.
Case at point, Israel using helicopter gunships to kill innocent civilians in Palestine and doing the same thing in Lebanon last year with IDF cluster bombs and 2,000-lb depleted uranium bunker busters. How can anyone defend those horrific tactics?
They can't, but President Bush did -- to the point of rushing 100 bunker busters to Israel last summer for use against Hezbollah neighborhoods in Lebanon. Quite cearly he’s a born-again bigot who believes Jews are God’s chosen people while Muslims are inferior.
Consider a Bush-inspired event in 2003. On April 7 of that year, under standing orders from George W., a B1 bomber carried out a decapitation strike on a Baghdad restaurant where Saddam Hussein was eating a late lunch. Reportedly.
Shortly after the mission began, the Ace of Spades, suspecting he had been betrayed by someone on his staff, slipped out of the al-Sa’ah restaurant’s backdoor and fled the scene. Ten minutes later, four bunker busters dropped by the diverted bomber blew the suburban eatery to bits along with cooks, waiters, bus boys, customers, cashier, pedestrians passing by and the occupants of three nearby homes.
Fourteen civilians died in that Baghdad neighborhood on April 7, people who lost their lives simply for being there, including two young children. Yet back in the United States, few Americans protested the barbaric aspect of the B1 mission, not on TV or in the press anyway. Quite the contrary, there was glorification of Bush’s decision to “take out Saddam,” as so many in his administration enjoyed saying.
To excuse our cowboy commander-in-chief, Republicans will argue he didn’t give orders to the B1 crew; someone else did. But that reason won’t wash, either. As our nation’s top military leader who authorized the decapitation strike, he has blood on his hands just like Osama bin Laden.
Here’s the nexus in a nutshell. For the loved ones of 9/11 victims, it’s heart wrenching to hear but must be said. If you believe as I do that human lives are precious, especially those of children who deserve an opportunity to grow up and have kids of their own, then we must face the truth no matter how painful. Other than motivation, the only difference between a B1 dropping bombs on a civilian restaurant from 30,000 feet and someone flying a jetliner into an office building is the number of people that die.
As an addendum to this tawdry tale, in 2004, President Bush was asked during a press conference about a retaliatory air assault against Syria by Israeli jets. The reason for the revenge mission was a Hamas suicide bombing of a crowded Jewish eating establishment that killed 20 people.
When questioned by a White House reporter if the Israeli raid was justified, Bush glowered and replied sternly, “When Hamas blows up a restaurant with civilians inside, that’s terrorism.”
I kid you not. I heard him say that with my own ears. Those were the exact words spoken by George bin Laden.
Now I ask you. In light of Bush’s arrogant superior attitude towards Muslims, can we expect him to deal fairly with the Palestinian territories’ democratically elected government?
The answer should be obvious. Standby for violent, Bush-instigated action by Israel againt Hamas.
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» Ignorant "Goy"
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Ignorant "Goy"
Posted by: Squarehead
» Shameless war promoter and Petraeus apologist HughScott is fooling noone!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» STOP your shameless lying, Thought Crook (Stealth Bushie). I have NEVER promoted the...
Posted by: HughScott
» HughScott, shameless war pimp and devotee of the Good, Patriotic, Honest Petraeus...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Quit hiding behind your AlterNet alias, TC. Come out and write like a man (or woman).
Posted by: HughScott
» Israel will re-occupy and attack Syria
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Israel will re-occupy and attack Syria
Posted by: DCBeltway
Comments are closed-
Bottling up Hamas
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 18, 2007 4:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 18, 2007 4:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now that Hamas is in control of Gaza, things couldn't be going better for Israel. Being in control of all the entry points, Israel can just starve Gaza into submission. Meanwhile, on the West Bank, Israel can continue gobbling up the rest of Palestine while Fatah stands idly by. Will the Western powers, led by the United States, come to the aid of starving Gazans? Why would we do that? Since we've already labeled the Hamas government as "terrorists," the humbling of Gaza will be described as a victory in the so-called "war on terrorism."
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» RE: Bottling up Hamas
Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon
Comments are closed-
AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: Lloyd Miller on Jun 18, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Lloyd Miller on Jun 18, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why would you think AlterNeters would accuse you of anti-Semitism. . .? looks to me like AlterNet IS anti-Semitic in the same frame of mind as is Jimmy Carter w/his SAUDI FINANCING exposed by Alan Dershowitz.
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» This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the cause of the Jews. I sometimes wonder if some of you guys
Posted by: yellow
» Alan Dershowitz is an appologist for war crimes... he has no place to talk, and is far from unbiased
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Alan Dershowitz holds the Felix Frankfurter chair at Harvard Law
Posted by: eretzisrael
» Felix the Fixer
Posted by: edith
» RE: Felix the Fixer
Posted by: Len Miller
» Hmmm, sounds like a threat to me.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: icj
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: eretzisrael
» Please don't step on this Nazi's fly paper.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» What are YOUR qualifications????
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: icj
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» And, no... really...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And, no... really...
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: And, no... really...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You need to learn to read more carefully.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Its not ignorance on his/her part... its a distraction tactic. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: jim_altman
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: icj
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: yellow
» Deconstructing Dershowitz's smear campaign against Jimmy Carter's supposed Saudi ties
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Deconstructing Dershowitz's smear campaign against Jimmy Carter's supposed Saudi ties
Posted by: Len Miller
» Dershowitz balanced and fair?
Posted by: justaguy
» Dershowitz is anti-gentile
Posted by: DCBeltway
Comments are closed-
Ray Burchard
Posted by: ray burchard on Jun 18, 2007 5:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: ray burchard on Jun 18, 2007 5:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While commending Mr. Fisk for his mastery of the obvious, however posing questions of ethics to the AlterNet readership misses the mark, these ethics anomalies should be taken up with the power that is, corporate America, where a malleable code of ethics is the favored avenue of expedience in their overriding quest for more and more profit. Then also the bought and paid politicians who convert corporate greed, i.e Iraq, into foreign policy, in their effort to create avarice, bolstered by financial gain as the ameliorated Muslim deity.
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THE GAZA DOSSIER. 06.16.2007
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excerpted from June 17, 2007 WAWA BLOG from a report by Ben White, freelance journalist specializing in Palestine/Israel. www.benwhite.org.uk
"But it is Israel, as the occupying power, that has primary responsibility for creating the conditions in which Palestinians have turned on each other. The Gaza Strip is a prison, where the prisoners are hungry, unemployed, and brutalized from 40 years of occupation. Israel's military onslaughts of the Second Intifada – which killed thousands and demolished tens of thousands of homes – have left its inhabitants mentally scarred, bereaved, angry, and reduced to the level of penned in animals...
"...Since the PLC elections, carried out democratically and transparently, the legitimate Palestinian government has been subjected to boycott, sanction and threats, and the US and EU have done everything in their power to undermine and destabilize the representatives of the Palestinian people...
"...together with Israel, the US has been openly working to arm Fatah for a coup against Hamas, moves that the latter – who had been elected on the basis of their resistance to Israeli occupation and their track record of humanitarian commitment to the people – were not going to sit by and idly watch. This came only after the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission appeared not to be working. This context is strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) missing from most mainstream media coverage, despite the basic facts being widely in the public domain...
"...most of the blame must lie squarely with Israel, the US and EU, for creating in Gaza conditions in which Hamas felt like they had little choice but to act, and where their program can seem so attractive. Starving and imprisoning a population, destabilizing a democratically-elected government; these are the actions of gangsters and thugs, not peacemakers or statesmen.
"...Hamas is already calling for dialogue with Abbas, while the latter talks of emergency rule and elections. Dialogue is the only way forward for the Palestinians, but dialogue based on some fundamentals; respecting the will of the people, resistance to occupation and colonization, and a break from the collaborating political class of Oslo.
"The US, Britain and the EU, meanwhile, must be forced to stop their blood-stained interference in the Middle East, policies that have led to a 'crescent of death and destruction', from Iraq, to Lebanon and Palestine. That is the real threat."
MUCH MORE:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
"But it is Israel, as the occupying power, that has primary responsibility for creating the conditions in which Palestinians have turned on each other. The Gaza Strip is a prison, where the prisoners are hungry, unemployed, and brutalized from 40 years of occupation. Israel's military onslaughts of the Second Intifada – which killed thousands and demolished tens of thousands of homes – have left its inhabitants mentally scarred, bereaved, angry, and reduced to the level of penned in animals...
"...Since the PLC elections, carried out democratically and transparently, the legitimate Palestinian government has been subjected to boycott, sanction and threats, and the US and EU have done everything in their power to undermine and destabilize the representatives of the Palestinian people...
"...together with Israel, the US has been openly working to arm Fatah for a coup against Hamas, moves that the latter – who had been elected on the basis of their resistance to Israeli occupation and their track record of humanitarian commitment to the people – were not going to sit by and idly watch. This came only after the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission appeared not to be working. This context is strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) missing from most mainstream media coverage, despite the basic facts being widely in the public domain...
"...most of the blame must lie squarely with Israel, the US and EU, for creating in Gaza conditions in which Hamas felt like they had little choice but to act, and where their program can seem so attractive. Starving and imprisoning a population, destabilizing a democratically-elected government; these are the actions of gangsters and thugs, not peacemakers or statesmen.
"...Hamas is already calling for dialogue with Abbas, while the latter talks of emergency rule and elections. Dialogue is the only way forward for the Palestinians, but dialogue based on some fundamentals; respecting the will of the people, resistance to occupation and colonization, and a break from the collaborating political class of Oslo.
"The US, Britain and the EU, meanwhile, must be forced to stop their blood-stained interference in the Middle East, policies that have led to a 'crescent of death and destruction', from Iraq, to Lebanon and Palestine. That is the real threat."
MUCH MORE:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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Comments are closed-
GOOD POINT and do you know about this?
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How often do we hear the refrain, "but the Arabs want to push Israel into the sea"
When it is clear by looking at the new UN map-or the ones on my homepage: http://www.wearewideawake.org/
That the bantustans which make up the occupied territories, clearly show how Israel has "pushed Palestine into the sea!"
Why do we never hear an outcry for Israel to recognize Palestine?
HERE'S WHY:
Excerpted from June 18 WAWA BLOG:
"American support for Israel has hindered international efforts to broker a peace deal in the Middle East, according to a hard-hitting confidential report from the outgoing UN Middle East envoy.
"Alvaro de Soto, who stepped down last month after 25 years at the UN, has exposed the American pressure that he argues has damaged the impartiality of the UN's peace making efforts.
"Mr de Soto reveals that after Hamas won elections last year it wanted to form a broad coalition government with its more moderate rivals, including Fatah, run by the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. But the US discouraged other Palestinian politicians from joining. "We were told that the US was against any 'blurring' of the line dividing Hamas from those Palestinian political forces committed to the two-state solution," Mr de Soto writes. It was a year before a coalition government was finally formed.
"The US also supported the Israeli decision to freeze Palestinian tax revenues. "The Quartet has been prevented from pronouncing on this because the US, as its representatives have intimated to us, does not wish Israel to transfer these funds to the PA [Palestinian Authority]," he writes. "There is a seeming reflex, in any given situation where the UN is to take a position, to ask first how Israel or Washington will react rather than what is the right position to take."
"Mr de Soto opposed the international boycott placed on the Palestinian government after Hamas won elections last year. He argued that it was wrong to use pressure and isolation alone, and proposed retaining dialogue with Hamas. He wanted tougher criticism of Israel as well, but came up against a "heavy barrage" from US officials.
"The effect of the boycott was to seriously damage the Palestinian economy and promote radicalism. It also lifted pressure from Israel. "With all focus on the failings of Hamas, the Israeli settlement enterprise and barrier construction has continued unabated," he writes.
"The report criticises the Palestinians for their violence, and Israel for extending its settlements and barrier in the West Bank. But he also argues that Israeli policies have encouraged continued Palestinian militancy. "I wonder if the Israeli authorities realise that, season after season, they are reaping what they sow, and are systematically pushing along the violence/repression cycle to the point where it is self-propelling," he writes.
The link for de Soto's "End of Mission Report" PDF File is too long to post here, but it is posted on WAWA BLOG June 18:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
When it is clear by looking at the new UN map-or the ones on my homepage: http://www.wearewideawake.org/
That the bantustans which make up the occupied territories, clearly show how Israel has "pushed Palestine into the sea!"
Why do we never hear an outcry for Israel to recognize Palestine?
HERE'S WHY:
Excerpted from June 18 WAWA BLOG:
"American support for Israel has hindered international efforts to broker a peace deal in the Middle East, according to a hard-hitting confidential report from the outgoing UN Middle East envoy.
"Alvaro de Soto, who stepped down last month after 25 years at the UN, has exposed the American pressure that he argues has damaged the impartiality of the UN's peace making efforts.
"Mr de Soto reveals that after Hamas won elections last year it wanted to form a broad coalition government with its more moderate rivals, including Fatah, run by the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. But the US discouraged other Palestinian politicians from joining. "We were told that the US was against any 'blurring' of the line dividing Hamas from those Palestinian political forces committed to the two-state solution," Mr de Soto writes. It was a year before a coalition government was finally formed.
"The US also supported the Israeli decision to freeze Palestinian tax revenues. "The Quartet has been prevented from pronouncing on this because the US, as its representatives have intimated to us, does not wish Israel to transfer these funds to the PA [Palestinian Authority]," he writes. "There is a seeming reflex, in any given situation where the UN is to take a position, to ask first how Israel or Washington will react rather than what is the right position to take."
"Mr de Soto opposed the international boycott placed on the Palestinian government after Hamas won elections last year. He argued that it was wrong to use pressure and isolation alone, and proposed retaining dialogue with Hamas. He wanted tougher criticism of Israel as well, but came up against a "heavy barrage" from US officials.
"The effect of the boycott was to seriously damage the Palestinian economy and promote radicalism. It also lifted pressure from Israel. "With all focus on the failings of Hamas, the Israeli settlement enterprise and barrier construction has continued unabated," he writes.
"The report criticises the Palestinians for their violence, and Israel for extending its settlements and barrier in the West Bank. But he also argues that Israeli policies have encouraged continued Palestinian militancy. "I wonder if the Israeli authorities realise that, season after season, they are reaping what they sow, and are systematically pushing along the violence/repression cycle to the point where it is self-propelling," he writes.
The link for de Soto's "End of Mission Report" PDF File is too long to post here, but it is posted on WAWA BLOG June 18:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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Comments are closed-
I want to commend the alternet readers for a civilized and informed debate about this crucial topic
Posted by: yellow on Jun 18, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: yellow on Jun 18, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thus far. I do believe Israel must engage Hamas in negotiations. This they are owed after Israel's routine rocket attacks, IDF redeployments in Gaza, and targeted assassinations particularly of Sheik Yassin. It is clever to ask how can one respond to a coup by an elected government. If the west bemoans the lack of moderates to talk to let them look at the history of their own foreign policies in the region. The answer is contained therein.
Hamas is a fundamentalist group with the kind of inherent hostilities to Israel that Fatah doesn't bear. Let it be known that Israel is only reaping what it has sown after years of refusing to deal seriously with Fatah including the unnecessary sinking of the OSLO accords in 2000 by allowing Sharon to go to the Haram al Sheriff. The corrupt nature of the PLO worked well for Israel as it was hoped that the PA would become the managers of a string of disconnected bantustans that were viable only as cheap labor reserves for Israeli and Jordanian business. It was further hoped that the PA would sustain their role and fervently defend it as personal beneficiaries of taxes, rents, and licensing fees for the planned industrial parks that were to form a string of Industrial free zones, the Palestinian version of maquiladors. For a full disclosure google PIEFZA, the bureacracy created by the PA in 1998 which invites all manner of direct foreign investment to generate job creation. The illegal Separation Wall, though opposed publically by the PLO, does serve as a latter day "commons enclosure measure" which directly proletarianizes palestinian labor and reduces the independant middle class traders, farmers, and manufacturers to a vast dependant labor pool for global capitalism.
Hamas was a stern rejection of this strategy of the US/Israeli/Fatah elite. And rightly so. Let negotiations begin so a viable state can emerge. Hamas can be practical and eschew violence under the right circumstances. In fact, only the US can bring all the relevant parties to the peace table.
Hamas is a fundamentalist group with the kind of inherent hostilities to Israel that Fatah doesn't bear. Let it be known that Israel is only reaping what it has sown after years of refusing to deal seriously with Fatah including the unnecessary sinking of the OSLO accords in 2000 by allowing Sharon to go to the Haram al Sheriff. The corrupt nature of the PLO worked well for Israel as it was hoped that the PA would become the managers of a string of disconnected bantustans that were viable only as cheap labor reserves for Israeli and Jordanian business. It was further hoped that the PA would sustain their role and fervently defend it as personal beneficiaries of taxes, rents, and licensing fees for the planned industrial parks that were to form a string of Industrial free zones, the Palestinian version of maquiladors. For a full disclosure google PIEFZA, the bureacracy created by the PA in 1998 which invites all manner of direct foreign investment to generate job creation. The illegal Separation Wall, though opposed publically by the PLO, does serve as a latter day "commons enclosure measure" which directly proletarianizes palestinian labor and reduces the independant middle class traders, farmers, and manufacturers to a vast dependant labor pool for global capitalism.
Hamas was a stern rejection of this strategy of the US/Israeli/Fatah elite. And rightly so. Let negotiations begin so a viable state can emerge. Hamas can be practical and eschew violence under the right circumstances. In fact, only the US can bring all the relevant parties to the peace table.
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» Two Cheers For Civilization
Posted by: edith
» I wholeheartedly agree except for the bit of hyperbole at the end aimed at the esteemed Ms. Clinton.
Posted by: yellow
» The "peace" process of the Democrats?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE:Think Again Hilary war monger,many will die
Posted by: SJ
» RE: I want to commend the alternet readers for a civilized and informed debate about this crucial to
Posted by: icj
» Same goes for Hizb'llah.
Posted by: justaguy
» The South African solution is the only workable one - but the US has zero credibility.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Sadly, apartheid is the real future
Posted by: Bobsays
» Wrong again, right-wing troll
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Some Clarifications...
Posted by: yellow
» The Democrats won't fix anything. Give it a rest.
Posted by: justaguy
» Sorry, But you have no idea what a Democrat will do about the issue once in office so give it a rest
Posted by: yellow
» Laughable analysis. Clinton made progress for Israeli expansion, not much else.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Laughable analysis. Clinton made progress for Israeli expansion, not much else.
Posted by: yellow
» Optimism or fly paper politics?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: grn1
» I got news for you jerk!!
Posted by: yellow
» Except that it was written for Netanyahu, so no cigar, yellow, you concern troll.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: xcept that it was written for Netanyahu, so no cigar, yellow, you concern troll.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Wait...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jun 18, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jun 18, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... you think the US actually cares about democracy AT ALL????
You must be joking.
We didn't care about it in Guatemala or Chile. We don't even care about it here.
You must be joking.
We didn't care about it in Guatemala or Chile. We don't even care about it here.
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» This has in fact always been my point regarding Israel/Palestine. Yet millions of Paleocons and even
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This has in fact always been my point regarding Israel/Palestine. Yet millions of Paleocons and
Posted by: icj
» Yellow - Dumb Question
Posted by: icj
» These days, the paleo position is the "peace" position
Posted by: edith
» RE: These days, the paleo position is the "peace" position
Posted by: icj
» misread alert
Posted by: edith
» RE: misread alert
Posted by: yellow
» Paleocon Paranoia
Posted by: edith
» RE: Paleocon Paranoia
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
High Colonic Needed
Posted by: jim_altman on Jun 18, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: jim_altman on Jun 18, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, if peace were the actual goal of Northern Hemispheric policy, sane voices like Mr. Fisk's would be heard from every pulpit, podium, and media outlet in the industrial world, but it's not. The goal of the Northern Hemisphere is as it has always been to exploit the resources of those south of the equator to feed its indolence and appetite for luxury. A truly democratic world would not be nearly as plush for those who would be compelled to share rather than horde. The sad irony is that our selfish over-consumption could ultimately detonate the Northern world like some Monty-Pythonesque fat man. What we need, after the Metamucil, is a healthy diet and a good twelve-step program. "Hi, we're the United States, and were over-consumers."
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Comments are closed-
Don't worry!
Posted by: willymack on Jun 18, 2007 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: willymack on Jun 18, 2007 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bushies are on the case. They'll handle this situation with the usual excellence and aplomb that they've become deservedly famous for, worldwide. A brief perusal of their dazzling accomplishments over the last six years is all that's needed to put all our minds at ease.
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» Mmm... it has been a star-studded cavalcade of failure, hasn't it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: janvdb on Jun 18, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: janvdb on Jun 18, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Fisk is a well-known writer who should be able to get his well-informed views into the mainstream press. But all I've seen there is bias, warp and cant.
NPR's coverage of the situation just about made me barf yesterday. Sometimes, their biases really show. Sometimes, it really is NJR -- National Jewish Radio. Shameful. Disgusting.
We say we want to spread democracy in the Middle East -- that is the reason for the occupation of Iraq, remember? But when we actually SEE some democracy, as in when the Palestinian people have the effrontery to elect the people they want, we and Israel withhold their OWN tax revenues, creating massive distress and trauma and then stir that up into a civil war by arming the party which lost.
We pour weapons in for Fatah and then our media airs stories complaining that the democratically elected government of Gaza arms itself (by smuggling? Is it smuggling if the duly elected government of an area is doing it?) against our thugs.
Our media twists the entire story to the point that the average person, even the average NPR listener, gets a completely distorted view of what is going on -- we fomented a civil war in Gaza by backing democracy's losers because we don't want to negotiate with the actual Palestinians. We insist on "negotiating" only with our own puppets and propped-up yes-men.
That's not negotiation. That's occupation.
That's cramming things down people's throats against their will.
And then we just can't figure out why it doesn't work.
Gaza is Aushwitz on the Mediterranean. The justification for our continual rehashing of the Holocaust is the cry "Never Again" but the Jews themselves are DOING IT AGAIN.
We need to wake up. We are thinking about this in a totally wrong-headed fashion and the media is full of bias against the Palestinians.
Jan VanDenBerg
NPR's coverage of the situation just about made me barf yesterday. Sometimes, their biases really show. Sometimes, it really is NJR -- National Jewish Radio. Shameful. Disgusting.
We say we want to spread democracy in the Middle East -- that is the reason for the occupation of Iraq, remember? But when we actually SEE some democracy, as in when the Palestinian people have the effrontery to elect the people they want, we and Israel withhold their OWN tax revenues, creating massive distress and trauma and then stir that up into a civil war by arming the party which lost.
We pour weapons in for Fatah and then our media airs stories complaining that the democratically elected government of Gaza arms itself (by smuggling? Is it smuggling if the duly elected government of an area is doing it?) against our thugs.
Our media twists the entire story to the point that the average person, even the average NPR listener, gets a completely distorted view of what is going on -- we fomented a civil war in Gaza by backing democracy's losers because we don't want to negotiate with the actual Palestinians. We insist on "negotiating" only with our own puppets and propped-up yes-men.
That's not negotiation. That's occupation.
That's cramming things down people's throats against their will.
And then we just can't figure out why it doesn't work.
Gaza is Aushwitz on the Mediterranean. The justification for our continual rehashing of the Holocaust is the cry "Never Again" but the Jews themselves are DOING IT AGAIN.
We need to wake up. We are thinking about this in a totally wrong-headed fashion and the media is full of bias against the Palestinians.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Blade
» You can state it better
Posted by: edith
» RE: You can state it better
Posted by: SholomB
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» "Auschwitz on the Mediterranean"? If so, there'd be no Gaza left!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: yellow
» Double standards from the zionist twins yellow and Len.
Posted by: justaguy
Comments are closed-
Hmmm...
Posted by: helenwheels on Jun 18, 2007 9:28 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: helenwheels on Jun 18, 2007 9:28 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most Americans haven't even noticed the U.S. coup d'etat by BushCo in 2000... so why would they notice someone else's? Or care? They're too busy eating McDonald's and swilling cokes and playing video games.
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» No this is a myth
Posted by: DCBeltway
Comments are closed-
Joy in US/IsraelLand
Posted by: shinseiji on Jun 18, 2007 11:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: shinseiji on Jun 18, 2007 11:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They can hardly contain their glee on the main US media outlets: CNN, Fox, MSNBC, the NYT, etc. Now they have a blank check for and clear shot at "doing a Fallujah" the Warsaw Ghetto of the Middle East - incidentally in the hope of reviving Israel's tattered military reputation after the humiliation in Lebanon - while also completing the buyout of the PLO.
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Comments are closed-
Bullshit
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:30 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:30 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not a word about stopping ther "poor' terrosrists from killing and maiming civilians. More Jewphobic bullshit. Nothing about Arafat reneging on Oslo or any other agreement. Nothing about Arafat refusing to accept Barak's deal. Nothing about what HAMAS says to willing ears of Jewphobes versus what they say to the people. Palestinians have their own Un aid agency and receive $300 per person vs $42 for the rest of sub Sharan Africa. Nothing about the over 1,143 civilians murdered since 2,000. Nothing about the 12 killed by qassam rockets this year. One sided bullshit. This where I disagree with liberal mantra (Israel/Jew hatred).
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» Watch which way the wind blows
Posted by: edith
» one sided?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: one sided?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» About those 1,143 civilians murdered . . .
Posted by: Rune
» Also...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Jewphobe Feeding Frenzy
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:34 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:34 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now I know where to go to get my daily dose of myths and Jew bashing. Does Suha Arafat still collect $300,000 a month from the PA while the people suffer. Israel controls the water and electricity in Gaza. Cutting it off would not be humanitarian (not that Plaestinians are humanitarian as the peace activist Zohair Hamdan--you cant because he was murdered).
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» RE: Jewphobe Feeding Frenzy
Posted by: Francis
» Frances you're a bigoted moron.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Calling a spade a club
Posted by: Francis on Jun 18, 2007 1:26 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Francis on Jun 18, 2007 1:26 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the title, "the hypocritical west". No mention of Israel. Fisk is Jewish after all, so his criticism can only run so deep.
The bloodbath that is about to occur will warm the hearts of Zionists everywhere. How they love their little holocausts. What fun these slow and steady ethnic cleansing rituals are for Likudniks and their silent fans. Like savoring cashews one at a time. And, oh boy, a chance to expunge the Lebanese humiliation. Life is good! OyVay!
The bloodbath that is about to occur will warm the hearts of Zionists everywhere. How they love their little holocausts. What fun these slow and steady ethnic cleansing rituals are for Likudniks and their silent fans. Like savoring cashews one at a time. And, oh boy, a chance to expunge the Lebanese humiliation. Life is good! OyVay!
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» Fisk is Jewish? I think not.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Calling a spade a club
Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: Francis
» No, I think you are mistaken.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: No, I think you are mistaken.
Posted by: Francis
» Nope.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Nope.
Posted by: Francis
» Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: yellow
» Fisk is English.(nm)
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: yellow
» Why do you always resort to the "racist" smear, yellow? Are you a concern troll by any chance?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: Francis
Comments are closed-
The South African solution...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 18, 2007 2:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 18, 2007 2:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is the one that both the left and the right are opposed to, so it is probably the only one that will really work.
It will entail, first and foremost, a separation of Church and State in Israel and Palestine, and the formation of a single country.
The walls will have to come down, and both Palestinians and Israelis will be able to travel freely throughout their new country, which should be called "Jerusalem".
It's likely that many Israelis will withdraw into gated communities surrounded by barbed wire and guards, as has happened in South Africa, and that great economic divides will exist in the new country.
They'll need a "Truth and Reconciliation" committee that will examine the Hamas-Fatah suicide bombings, the covert support from foreign countries for various sides, as well as a review of covert Israeli activities in Palestine.
They should also be very strongly encouraged to give up all of their nuclear weapons and to abandon all such plans for the future, as was the case for South Africa.
Who would be the winners? The peaceable, hardworking, educated middle classes of Israel and Palestine! Who would be the losers? The various wild-eyed religious fanatics of both Zionism and Wahhabi Islam, the Christian evangelists who would be denied their little Armageddeon, and all the political interests who want to see the conflict continue for geopolitical reasons, and who are deeply opposed to peace in the Middle East.
I mean, if everyone in the Middle East stopped fighting, who would they sell the weapons to?
It will entail, first and foremost, a separation of Church and State in Israel and Palestine, and the formation of a single country.
The walls will have to come down, and both Palestinians and Israelis will be able to travel freely throughout their new country, which should be called "Jerusalem".
It's likely that many Israelis will withdraw into gated communities surrounded by barbed wire and guards, as has happened in South Africa, and that great economic divides will exist in the new country.
They'll need a "Truth and Reconciliation" committee that will examine the Hamas-Fatah suicide bombings, the covert support from foreign countries for various sides, as well as a review of covert Israeli activities in Palestine.
They should also be very strongly encouraged to give up all of their nuclear weapons and to abandon all such plans for the future, as was the case for South Africa.
Who would be the winners? The peaceable, hardworking, educated middle classes of Israel and Palestine! Who would be the losers? The various wild-eyed religious fanatics of both Zionism and Wahhabi Islam, the Christian evangelists who would be denied their little Armageddeon, and all the political interests who want to see the conflict continue for geopolitical reasons, and who are deeply opposed to peace in the Middle East.
I mean, if everyone in the Middle East stopped fighting, who would they sell the weapons to?
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» RE: The South African solution...
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Why did Hamas win the election?
Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 18, 2007 3:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 18, 2007 3:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why did Hamas win the election?
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» RE: Why did Hamas win the election?
Posted by: leerhok
Comments are closed-
Playing Ball the Washington/Tel Aviv Way
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 18, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 18, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fatah was willing to agree much more readily to the dictates of the USA and Israel then Hamas ever would or ever will. The USA and Israel know this. When any government or dictator no longer "plays ball the Washington way," you know they are in trouble. Cases in point, the USA attempted coup against Chavez, and of course, "taking out Saddam." Remember, Saddam was "Washington's boy," right up till he invaded Kuwait. You can find pictures of him and Rumsfeld shaking hands and chumming up all over the web. As for atrocities, the USA knew it all but actually wanted Saddam to stay in power, especially when he went to war with Iran. So none of that mattered. However, Saddam crossed the line when he invaded the USA good buddy, good friend state of Kuwait. So, he was slotted for removal and a lesson to be made of him. As for Fatah, playing ball the Washington way means agreeing to the USA/Israel decided Palestine state borders (with the best land carved out being ceded to Israel for settlements), and agreeing to a state where Israel "controls all matters of security, etc." Now, this is a screw job for the Palestinian people so Hamas is not too excited. However, we have yet to see how this will work out. You can bet, however, that not "playing ball" the Washington way, can lead to very serious consequences indeed.
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» RE: Playing Ball the Washington/Tel Aviv Way
Posted by: SoyJudio
Comments are closed-
HAMAS
Posted by: gellero on Jun 18, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: gellero on Jun 18, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas and its Iranian and Syrian backers are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. So what if they were democratically elected. Israel conquered territory....they're not going to give it all back. And why should they?? To be nice guys?? Gaza had it's chance to live in peace after the Israelis withdrew. But they continued hostilities. The next Israeli move will be to seize a strip along the Egyptian border to prevent smuggling arms. Can't blame them at all. read their viewpoin here
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» RE: HAMAS
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: HAMAS
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: Right of return
Posted by: asilsfable
» I would agree...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» try facts?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» WRONG!
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: HAMAS who?
Posted by: pierrot
Comments are closed-
One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: SoyJudio on Jun 18, 2007 7:39 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: SoyJudio on Jun 18, 2007 7:39 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is impossible. Their little minds are made up. Don't bother them with facts--they make up their own.
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» Interesting that anyone who criticizes Israel is a "jew hater".
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: Len Miller
» Leerhook is anti-gentile
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Mate, you're an idiot...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Mate, you're an idiot...
Posted by: DCBeltway
» The comment was for Len the idiot.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: The comment was for Len the idiot.
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Leerhok: are you really that much of an idiot or do you just play one on Alternet?
Posted by: thumber77
Comments are closed-
Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: thumber77 on Jun 18, 2007 7:58 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: thumber77 on Jun 18, 2007 7:58 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas wants (and is creating in Gaza) a world where women are forced to be veiled, not allowed to leave their homes. Hamas is for the execution of gays and the destruction of non-Muslim religious facilities. Hamas is not a Palestinian creation, but rather is funded and its leaders are puppets to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Syrians, and the Iranians. Many of the people commenting think they must be for Hamas since Hamas is against the U.S. and Israel, but ... Would you have supported a coup by Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay and our home-grown fundamentalists against Clinton because the US fundamentalists won the last election? There is no room to negotiate with Hamas or any other religious fanatics who think that God is telling them what to do. Is there anyone in this thread who praises Hamas who would like to move to Gaza and live under their Sharia regime? If the day comes that Hamas gains broader power, they will round up and kill all the 'useful idiots' who are defending them here.
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» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: hellofriends
» SJ like every other a---hole who has an opinion but don't confuse him/her with the facts
Posted by: thumber77
» Except Democracy huh?
Posted by: justaguy
» Palestine has both a President AND a Parliament
Posted by: thumber77
» Israel and the US instigated the fighting...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: lotus23
» RE: Hamas and the readership of Alternet is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
World War 3
Posted by: vertical on Jun 18, 2007 8:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: vertical on Jun 18, 2007 8:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America in Iraq and Afganastan, Isreal Palaestine and Lebenon, Turkey and Kurdastan. Oh boy! World War 3 here we come.
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Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller on Jun 19, 2007 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Len Miller on Jun 19, 2007 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Mr. Fisk:
When it comes to Israel, the World has a distinct blind spot. I am trying to understand and define it. It seems that one does not question the right of self-defense to any other country-- except Israel. When it defends itself from attack, rockets and missiles lobbed into it's civilian population, it is called an occupier, a "war monger" and worse by many commentators on this site. I cannot imagine that the same would be said if Enland were defending itself from German rockets, or if Miami were being shelled by Cuba. The World stood ready and able to join the USA in Afghanistan after 9/11. There would not have been protest but for the hideous Bush policies and the invasion of Iraq. Not so for Israel. I find that offensive and bigoted.
I have no problem with the general position of your article;i.e, that there should be diplomatic negotiation with one's enemies. However, I do take issue with you that elections create in the elected a reasonable partner for peace. I am sure that you have read the Hamas covenant.
It leaves no room for a 2 state solution or any accomodation for anyone but Islamists-Note Article 11:" Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Islamic aqf:
Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of JudgementThis being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? "Artilce 12 continues: Article Twelve:
"Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land". And take a look at 13:"Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion" It gets worse:" There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."
So much for peaceful solutions and negotiations. Remember,Hitler and the Nazis were also elected. "PEACE IN OUR TIME".
When it comes to Israel, the World has a distinct blind spot. I am trying to understand and define it. It seems that one does not question the right of self-defense to any other country-- except Israel. When it defends itself from attack, rockets and missiles lobbed into it's civilian population, it is called an occupier, a "war monger" and worse by many commentators on this site. I cannot imagine that the same would be said if Enland were defending itself from German rockets, or if Miami were being shelled by Cuba. The World stood ready and able to join the USA in Afghanistan after 9/11. There would not have been protest but for the hideous Bush policies and the invasion of Iraq. Not so for Israel. I find that offensive and bigoted.
I have no problem with the general position of your article;i.e, that there should be diplomatic negotiation with one's enemies. However, I do take issue with you that elections create in the elected a reasonable partner for peace. I am sure that you have read the Hamas covenant.
It leaves no room for a 2 state solution or any accomodation for anyone but Islamists-Note Article 11:" Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Islamic aqf:
Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of JudgementThis being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? "Artilce 12 continues: Article Twelve:
"Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land". And take a look at 13:"Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion" It gets worse:" There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."
So much for peaceful solutions and negotiations. Remember,Hitler and the Nazis were also elected. "PEACE IN OUR TIME".
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» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: OhioPatriot
Comments are closed-
The Root of the Evil
Posted by: leerhok on Jun 19, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: leerhok on Jun 19, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Almost every single population on earth lives on stolen land. Land grabbed once or rather several times by killing the inhabitants or making them flee. After a few years it is OK/just to reverse such a landgrab. But after considerable time status quo will be the lesser evil and reoccupation the greater one.
To do it after some 3.000 years simply is a recipe for disaster. Which history has proven beyond any doubt!!!
Giving land to establish a jewish state as punishment for Holocaust is completely OK. But far from it when a totally innocent third party is handed the verdict instead of the guilty nation(s)!!!
To do it after some 3.000 years simply is a recipe for disaster. Which history has proven beyond any doubt!!!
Giving land to establish a jewish state as punishment for Holocaust is completely OK. But far from it when a totally innocent third party is handed the verdict instead of the guilty nation(s)!!!
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» Good point. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: lotus23
» And zionists collaberated with the Nazis too. What is the relevance to today?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: jmp3954
» Also, learn your common law on squatting, Len
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
ANOTHER POINT of VIEW
Posted by: gellero on Jun 19, 2007 4:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: gellero on Jun 19, 2007 4:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Things are not as clearcut as the Luddite states.........
LOOK AT IT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW
LOOK AT IT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW
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» Horowitz is a worse racist that Dershowitz.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Horowitz is a worse racist that Dershowitz.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Emergency! Calling all Zionazis!
Posted by: opeluboy on Jun 19, 2007 4:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: opeluboy on Jun 19, 2007 4:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hurry, hurry! There's another article on AlterNet critical of Israel! Muster your forces and trot out the tired propaganda! There's not a moment to lose! Americans are waking up! Hurl accusations of "anti-Semitism." Whine about the Holocaust! Compare someone — anyone — to Hitler!
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Comments are closed-
OTHER ALTERNATIVE MEDIA
Posted by: chamela on Jun 19, 2007 9:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: chamela on Jun 19, 2007 9:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.sandersresearch.com
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.onlinejournal.com
http://www.larouchepub.com
http://www.danielestulin.com/?op=noticias&idioma=en
http://www.carolynbaker.org
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.onlinejournal.com
http://www.larouchepub.com
http://www.danielestulin.com/?op=noticias&idioma=en
http://www.carolynbaker.org
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» WARNING LAROUCHE LOONY ON THE LOOSE
Posted by: thumber77
Comments are closed-
Coup d'etat?
Posted by: fitzjohn on Jun 20, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: fitzjohn on Jun 20, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Was it a coup by Abbas, or did he have the legal right to dissolve and re-form his government under the PA constitution? Does the US have the right to extend aid to that government in these circumstances? Does the US have the right to refuse aid to a rebel government?
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I See
Posted by: call_kirk on Jun 20, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: call_kirk on Jun 20, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I See
Mr. Carter is a former president who has sold out to Saudi Arabian money simple as that - note his funding from even the bin laden corporation,
The middle east conflict is easily misunderstood by left wing. "End the occupation ...blah ..blah .. blah"
The simple fact is that in the Moslem/ Arab mindset it is all on the path to world domination by the believers.
Once Moslem land it can never go back.
Simple as that
Forget truisms and slogans contrary
It is interesting to note that the Jews/ Isreali's moved to the middle. The "arabs " voted in Hamas.
Look at how they behave.
A one state solution ??
Look like a very civilized group even after 25 years of interaction with the west,
One giant welfare case from the west.
The arab oil sheiks have done nothing except squander money on armamemts. But then again the whole issue in the eyes of the moslem world is 'Once Moslem land it can never go back"
But then again Jimmy the jews killed Jesus.
What was Jesus doing there in historic Palestine anyways ?
being a good baptist or a Moslem ?
Mr. Carter is a former president who has sold out to Saudi Arabian money simple as that - note his funding from even the bin laden corporation,
The middle east conflict is easily misunderstood by left wing. "End the occupation ...blah ..blah .. blah"
The simple fact is that in the Moslem/ Arab mindset it is all on the path to world domination by the believers.
Once Moslem land it can never go back.
Simple as that
Forget truisms and slogans contrary
It is interesting to note that the Jews/ Isreali's moved to the middle. The "arabs " voted in Hamas.
Look at how they behave.
A one state solution ??
Look like a very civilized group even after 25 years of interaction with the west,
One giant welfare case from the west.
The arab oil sheiks have done nothing except squander money on armamemts. But then again the whole issue in the eyes of the moslem world is 'Once Moslem land it can never go back"
But then again Jimmy the jews killed Jesus.
What was Jesus doing there in historic Palestine anyways ?
being a good baptist or a Moslem ?
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» RE: I See
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: I smell racism and lies.
Posted by: justaguy
Alternet Comments:
» RE: GOOD POINT!
Posted by: wawa
» Hamas - Fanatical Islamics in control
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» False analysis as usual.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: fitzjohn
» Israel - corrupt and fanatical extremists out of control
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Israel - corrupt and fanatical extremists out of control
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» History starts the day Israel says it starts.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: History starts the day Israel says it starts.
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» So, you are arguing with Olmert about his own testimony.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, you are arguing with Olmert about his own testimony.
Posted by: fitzjohn
» The problem is Israel is the terrorist agressor ...
Posted by: pierrot
» Self defence! not terror ...
Posted by: pierrot
» The Fatah-Hamas conflict is THEIR INTERNAL business!
Posted by: pierrot
» Here's the answer...
Posted by: Fog
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: josephq
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: josephq
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: fitzjohn
» Hey Fallout, you've been asked for facts!
Posted by: fitzjohn
» The secular solution?
Posted by: edith
» RE: The secular solution?
Posted by: icj
» thanks
Posted by: edith
» In praise of Robert Fisk
Posted by: hagwind
» The Jews didn't initiate colonialism although the west uses the exodus narrative as a paradigm of
Posted by: yellow
» Ignorant "Goy"
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Ignorant "Goy"
Posted by: Squarehead
» Shameless war promoter and Petraeus apologist HughScott is fooling noone!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» STOP your shameless lying, Thought Crook (Stealth Bushie). I have NEVER promoted the...
Posted by: HughScott
» HughScott, shameless war pimp and devotee of the Good, Patriotic, Honest Petraeus...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Quit hiding behind your AlterNet alias, TC. Come out and write like a man (or woman).
Posted by: HughScott
» Israel will re-occupy and attack Syria
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Israel will re-occupy and attack Syria
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Bottling up Hamas
Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon
» This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the cause of the Jews. I sometimes wonder if some of you guys
Posted by: yellow
» Alan Dershowitz is an appologist for war crimes... he has no place to talk, and is far from unbiased
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Alan Dershowitz holds the Felix Frankfurter chair at Harvard Law
Posted by: eretzisrael
» Felix the Fixer
Posted by: edith
» RE: Felix the Fixer
Posted by: Len Miller
» Hmmm, sounds like a threat to me.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: icj
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: eretzisrael
» Please don't step on this Nazi's fly paper.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» What are YOUR qualifications????
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: icj
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» And, no... really...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And, no... really...
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: And, no... really...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You need to learn to read more carefully.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Its not ignorance on his/her part... its a distraction tactic. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: jim_altman
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: icj
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: yellow
» Deconstructing Dershowitz's smear campaign against Jimmy Carter's supposed Saudi ties
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Deconstructing Dershowitz's smear campaign against Jimmy Carter's supposed Saudi ties
Posted by: Len Miller
» Dershowitz balanced and fair?
Posted by: justaguy
» Dershowitz is anti-gentile
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Two Cheers For Civilization
Posted by: edith
» I wholeheartedly agree except for the bit of hyperbole at the end aimed at the esteemed Ms. Clinton.
Posted by: yellow
» The "peace" process of the Democrats?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE:Think Again Hilary war monger,many will die
Posted by: SJ
» RE: I want to commend the alternet readers for a civilized and informed debate about this crucial to
Posted by: icj
» Same goes for Hizb'llah.
Posted by: justaguy
» The South African solution is the only workable one - but the US has zero credibility.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Sadly, apartheid is the real future
Posted by: Bobsays
» Wrong again, right-wing troll
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Some Clarifications...
Posted by: yellow
» The Democrats won't fix anything. Give it a rest.
Posted by: justaguy
» Sorry, But you have no idea what a Democrat will do about the issue once in office so give it a rest
Posted by: yellow
» Laughable analysis. Clinton made progress for Israeli expansion, not much else.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Laughable analysis. Clinton made progress for Israeli expansion, not much else.
Posted by: yellow
» Optimism or fly paper politics?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: grn1
» I got news for you jerk!!
Posted by: yellow
» Except that it was written for Netanyahu, so no cigar, yellow, you concern troll.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: xcept that it was written for Netanyahu, so no cigar, yellow, you concern troll.
Posted by: yellow
» This has in fact always been my point regarding Israel/Palestine. Yet millions of Paleocons and even
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This has in fact always been my point regarding Israel/Palestine. Yet millions of Paleocons and
Posted by: icj
» Yellow - Dumb Question
Posted by: icj
» These days, the paleo position is the "peace" position
Posted by: edith
» RE: These days, the paleo position is the "peace" position
Posted by: icj
» misread alert
Posted by: edith
» RE: misread alert
Posted by: yellow
» Paleocon Paranoia
Posted by: edith
» RE: Paleocon Paranoia
Posted by: yellow
» Mmm... it has been a star-studded cavalcade of failure, hasn't it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Blade
» You can state it better
Posted by: edith
» RE: You can state it better
Posted by: SholomB
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» "Auschwitz on the Mediterranean"? If so, there'd be no Gaza left!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: yellow
» Double standards from the zionist twins yellow and Len.
Posted by: justaguy
» No this is a myth
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Watch which way the wind blows
Posted by: edith
» one sided?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: one sided?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» About those 1,143 civilians murdered . . .
Posted by: Rune
» Also...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Jewphobe Feeding Frenzy
Posted by: Francis
» Frances you're a bigoted moron.
Posted by: yellow
» Fisk is Jewish? I think not.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Calling a spade a club
Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: Francis
» No, I think you are mistaken.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: No, I think you are mistaken.
Posted by: Francis
» Nope.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Nope.
Posted by: Francis
» Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: yellow
» Fisk is English.(nm)
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: yellow
» Why do you always resort to the "racist" smear, yellow? Are you a concern troll by any chance?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: Francis
» RE: The South African solution...
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Why did Hamas win the election?
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: Playing Ball the Washington/Tel Aviv Way
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: HAMAS
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: HAMAS
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: Right of return
Posted by: asilsfable
» I would agree...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» try facts?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» WRONG!
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: HAMAS who?
Posted by: pierrot
» Interesting that anyone who criticizes Israel is a "jew hater".
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: Len Miller
» Leerhook is anti-gentile
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Mate, you're an idiot...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Mate, you're an idiot...
Posted by: DCBeltway
» The comment was for Len the idiot.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: The comment was for Len the idiot.
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Leerhok: are you really that much of an idiot or do you just play one on Alternet?
Posted by: thumber77
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: hellofriends
» SJ like every other a---hole who has an opinion but don't confuse him/her with the facts
Posted by: thumber77
» Except Democracy huh?
Posted by: justaguy
» Palestine has both a President AND a Parliament
Posted by: thumber77
» Israel and the US instigated the fighting...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: lotus23
» RE: Hamas and the readership of Alternet is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» Good point. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: lotus23
» And zionists collaberated with the Nazis too. What is the relevance to today?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: jmp3954
» Also, learn your common law on squatting, Len
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Horowitz is a worse racist that Dershowitz.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Horowitz is a worse racist that Dershowitz.
Posted by: yellow
» WARNING LAROUCHE LOONY ON THE LOOSE
Posted by: thumber77
» RE: I See
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: I smell racism and lies.
Posted by: justaguy
Comments are closed-
Generosity
Posted by: fallout1 on Jun 18, 2007 1:02 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: fallout1 on Jun 18, 2007 1:02 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas HAS agreed to abide by previous treaties and deals, including Oslo. Hamas HAS agreed to tacitly recognize Israel. They ONLY demand withdrawal to pre-1967 borders, just like the REST of the world and the long-agreed upon two-state settlement.
Why does Hamas need to recognize Israel's right to exist when they refuse to return the favor?
As Noam Chomsky points out, who actually cares about a "right to exist" ? No country has a "right" to exist in any legal sense.
Why does Hamas need to recognize Israel's right to exist when they refuse to return the favor?
As Noam Chomsky points out, who actually cares about a "right to exist" ? No country has a "right" to exist in any legal sense.
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» RE: GOOD POINT!
Posted by: wawa
» Hamas - Fanatical Islamics in control
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» False analysis as usual.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hahahahaha! Fatah are now your good guys.
Posted by: fitzjohn
» Israel - corrupt and fanatical extremists out of control
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Israel - corrupt and fanatical extremists out of control
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» History starts the day Israel says it starts.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: History starts the day Israel says it starts.
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, Olmert is lying about Lebanon then?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» So, you are arguing with Olmert about his own testimony.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: So, you are arguing with Olmert about his own testimony.
Posted by: fitzjohn
» The problem is Israel is the terrorist agressor ...
Posted by: pierrot
» Self defence! not terror ...
Posted by: pierrot
» The Fatah-Hamas conflict is THEIR INTERNAL business!
Posted by: pierrot
» Here's the answer...
Posted by: Fog
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: josephq
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: josephq
» RE: Generosity
Posted by: fitzjohn
» Hey Fallout, you've been asked for facts!
Posted by: fitzjohn
Comments are closed-
Mr. Fisk is right again!
Posted by: algodees on Jun 18, 2007 1:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: algodees on Jun 18, 2007 1:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Fisk has lived and worked in the Middle East for the last 30 years or so and knows what he is talking about. His latest book, "The Great War for Civilization" gives a very good history lesson about the region and is a must read if you really want to understand what is going on there.
We in the West should not shun and ignore Hamas. They are not going away and how do we change things without interacting with them. The Palestinian people did not elect Hamas because they hate the West or individually hate Israel. They voted for Hamas because they hated the corrupt Fatah government. In case you haven't noticed, the Fatah leadership over the years has done a horrible job of representing the Palestinian people. Nobody wants bad leaders and the Palestinian people were fed up with these crooks. How would you like to have been born in a refugee camp and still be there 60 years later? For the West to blackmail the Palestinians by with-holding aid and for Israel to withhold tax monies due the Palestinian people because we don't like who they democratically elected is unconscionable. How would we like some other powers to impose a corrupt government on us. It is bad enough when elect one ourselves.
We in the West should not shun and ignore Hamas. They are not going away and how do we change things without interacting with them. The Palestinian people did not elect Hamas because they hate the West or individually hate Israel. They voted for Hamas because they hated the corrupt Fatah government. In case you haven't noticed, the Fatah leadership over the years has done a horrible job of representing the Palestinian people. Nobody wants bad leaders and the Palestinian people were fed up with these crooks. How would you like to have been born in a refugee camp and still be there 60 years later? For the West to blackmail the Palestinians by with-holding aid and for Israel to withhold tax monies due the Palestinian people because we don't like who they democratically elected is unconscionable. How would we like some other powers to impose a corrupt government on us. It is bad enough when elect one ourselves.
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» The secular solution?
Posted by: edith
» RE: The secular solution?
Posted by: icj
» thanks
Posted by: edith
» In praise of Robert Fisk
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Classic cognitive dissonance....(Come in yellow)
Posted by: justaguy on Jun 18, 2007 2:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: justaguy on Jun 18, 2007 2:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....on the part of the west will allow this most instructive hypocrisy to pass unnoticed.
I noticed this watching some CNN and reading some of the Murdoch press that they were describing this as a coup.
It would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. This is a coup for the hypocrites and the murderers of USrael, Fatah and their pathetic enablers in the EU. I won't bother to even mention all those "liberals" in the US that won't speak up and challenge the ethnocide being committed in their name.
I noticed this watching some CNN and reading some of the Murdoch press that they were describing this as a coup.
It would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. This is a coup for the hypocrites and the murderers of USrael, Fatah and their pathetic enablers in the EU. I won't bother to even mention all those "liberals" in the US that won't speak up and challenge the ethnocide being committed in their name.
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» The Jews didn't initiate colonialism although the west uses the exodus narrative as a paradigm of
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Standby for violent action against Hamas.
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 18, 2007 2:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 18, 2007 2:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before AlterNet do-gooders accuse me of being anti-Semitic, as someone who visited Dachau and the Ann Frank House while touring Europe, I used to be an ardent backer of Israel -- when it followed humanistic Hebrew law. Now, sadly, because of the extremist Likud Party, Israel’s version of the rightwing GOP, King David's once righteous warriors have become cowardly neocons like their PNAC and CPD counterparts in America.
Case at point, Israel using helicopter gunships to kill innocent civilians in Palestine and doing the same thing in Lebanon last year with IDF cluster bombs and 2,000-lb depleted uranium bunker busters. How can anyone defend those horrific tactics?
They can't, but President Bush did -- to the point of rushing 100 bunker busters to Israel last summer for use against Hezbollah neighborhoods in Lebanon. Quite cearly he’s a born-again bigot who believes Jews are God’s chosen people while Muslims are inferior.
Consider a Bush-inspired event in 2003. On April 7 of that year, under standing orders from George W., a B1 bomber carried out a decapitation strike on a Baghdad restaurant where Saddam Hussein was eating a late lunch. Reportedly.
Shortly after the mission began, the Ace of Spades, suspecting he had been betrayed by someone on his staff, slipped out of the al-Sa’ah restaurant’s backdoor and fled the scene. Ten minutes later, four bunker busters dropped by the diverted bomber blew the suburban eatery to bits along with cooks, waiters, bus boys, customers, cashier, pedestrians passing by and the occupants of three nearby homes.
Fourteen civilians died in that Baghdad neighborhood on April 7, people who lost their lives simply for being there, including two young children. Yet back in the United States, few Americans protested the barbaric aspect of the B1 mission, not on TV or in the press anyway. Quite the contrary, there was glorification of Bush’s decision to “take out Saddam,” as so many in his administration enjoyed saying.
To excuse our cowboy commander-in-chief, Republicans will argue he didn’t give orders to the B1 crew; someone else did. But that reason won’t wash, either. As our nation’s top military leader who authorized the decapitation strike, he has blood on his hands just like Osama bin Laden.
Here’s the nexus in a nutshell. For the loved ones of 9/11 victims, it’s heart wrenching to hear but must be said. If you believe as I do that human lives are precious, especially those of children who deserve an opportunity to grow up and have kids of their own, then we must face the truth no matter how painful. Other than motivation, the only difference between a B1 dropping bombs on a civilian restaurant from 30,000 feet and someone flying a jetliner into an office building is the number of people that die.
As an addendum to this tawdry tale, in 2004, President Bush was asked during a press conference about a retaliatory air assault against Syria by Israeli jets. The reason for the revenge mission was a Hamas suicide bombing of a crowded Jewish eating establishment that killed 20 people.
When questioned by a White House reporter if the Israeli raid was justified, Bush glowered and replied sternly, “When Hamas blows up a restaurant with civilians inside, that’s terrorism.”
I kid you not. I heard him say that with my own ears. Those were the exact words spoken by George bin Laden.
Now I ask you. In light of Bush’s arrogant superior attitude towards Muslims, can we expect him to deal fairly with the Palestinian territories’ democratically elected government?
The answer should be obvious. Standby for violent, Bush-instigated action by Israel againt Hamas.
Case at point, Israel using helicopter gunships to kill innocent civilians in Palestine and doing the same thing in Lebanon last year with IDF cluster bombs and 2,000-lb depleted uranium bunker busters. How can anyone defend those horrific tactics?
They can't, but President Bush did -- to the point of rushing 100 bunker busters to Israel last summer for use against Hezbollah neighborhoods in Lebanon. Quite cearly he’s a born-again bigot who believes Jews are God’s chosen people while Muslims are inferior.
Consider a Bush-inspired event in 2003. On April 7 of that year, under standing orders from George W., a B1 bomber carried out a decapitation strike on a Baghdad restaurant where Saddam Hussein was eating a late lunch. Reportedly.
Shortly after the mission began, the Ace of Spades, suspecting he had been betrayed by someone on his staff, slipped out of the al-Sa’ah restaurant’s backdoor and fled the scene. Ten minutes later, four bunker busters dropped by the diverted bomber blew the suburban eatery to bits along with cooks, waiters, bus boys, customers, cashier, pedestrians passing by and the occupants of three nearby homes.
Fourteen civilians died in that Baghdad neighborhood on April 7, people who lost their lives simply for being there, including two young children. Yet back in the United States, few Americans protested the barbaric aspect of the B1 mission, not on TV or in the press anyway. Quite the contrary, there was glorification of Bush’s decision to “take out Saddam,” as so many in his administration enjoyed saying.
To excuse our cowboy commander-in-chief, Republicans will argue he didn’t give orders to the B1 crew; someone else did. But that reason won’t wash, either. As our nation’s top military leader who authorized the decapitation strike, he has blood on his hands just like Osama bin Laden.
Here’s the nexus in a nutshell. For the loved ones of 9/11 victims, it’s heart wrenching to hear but must be said. If you believe as I do that human lives are precious, especially those of children who deserve an opportunity to grow up and have kids of their own, then we must face the truth no matter how painful. Other than motivation, the only difference between a B1 dropping bombs on a civilian restaurant from 30,000 feet and someone flying a jetliner into an office building is the number of people that die.
As an addendum to this tawdry tale, in 2004, President Bush was asked during a press conference about a retaliatory air assault against Syria by Israeli jets. The reason for the revenge mission was a Hamas suicide bombing of a crowded Jewish eating establishment that killed 20 people.
When questioned by a White House reporter if the Israeli raid was justified, Bush glowered and replied sternly, “When Hamas blows up a restaurant with civilians inside, that’s terrorism.”
I kid you not. I heard him say that with my own ears. Those were the exact words spoken by George bin Laden.
Now I ask you. In light of Bush’s arrogant superior attitude towards Muslims, can we expect him to deal fairly with the Palestinian territories’ democratically elected government?
The answer should be obvious. Standby for violent, Bush-instigated action by Israel againt Hamas.
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» Ignorant "Goy"
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Ignorant "Goy"
Posted by: Squarehead
» Shameless war promoter and Petraeus apologist HughScott is fooling noone!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» STOP your shameless lying, Thought Crook (Stealth Bushie). I have NEVER promoted the...
Posted by: HughScott
» HughScott, shameless war pimp and devotee of the Good, Patriotic, Honest Petraeus...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Quit hiding behind your AlterNet alias, TC. Come out and write like a man (or woman).
Posted by: HughScott
» Israel will re-occupy and attack Syria
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Israel will re-occupy and attack Syria
Posted by: DCBeltway
Comments are closed-
Bottling up Hamas
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 18, 2007 4:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 18, 2007 4:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now that Hamas is in control of Gaza, things couldn't be going better for Israel. Being in control of all the entry points, Israel can just starve Gaza into submission. Meanwhile, on the West Bank, Israel can continue gobbling up the rest of Palestine while Fatah stands idly by. Will the Western powers, led by the United States, come to the aid of starving Gazans? Why would we do that? Since we've already labeled the Hamas government as "terrorists," the humbling of Gaza will be described as a victory in the so-called "war on terrorism."
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» RE: Bottling up Hamas
Posted by: Kitty Lady Oregon
Comments are closed-
AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: Lloyd Miller on Jun 18, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Lloyd Miller on Jun 18, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why would you think AlterNeters would accuse you of anti-Semitism. . .? looks to me like AlterNet IS anti-Semitic in the same frame of mind as is Jimmy Carter w/his SAUDI FINANCING exposed by Alan Dershowitz.
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» This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the cause of the Jews. I sometimes wonder if some of you guys
Posted by: yellow
» Alan Dershowitz is an appologist for war crimes... he has no place to talk, and is far from unbiased
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Alan Dershowitz holds the Felix Frankfurter chair at Harvard Law
Posted by: eretzisrael
» Felix the Fixer
Posted by: edith
» RE: Felix the Fixer
Posted by: Len Miller
» Hmmm, sounds like a threat to me.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: icj
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: eretzisrael
» Please don't step on this Nazi's fly paper.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: There is something wrong with Palestinians
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» What are YOUR qualifications????
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: icj
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Your question is irrelevant
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You ought to read articles on this site once in a while
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» And, no... really...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: And, no... really...
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: And, no... really...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You need to learn to read more carefully.....
Posted by: mjabele
» Its not ignorance on his/her part... its a distraction tactic. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: btw.. Harvard may impress you...but it doesn't impress me all that much.
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: jim_altman
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: icj
» RE: AlterNet is Anti-Semitic
Posted by: yellow
» Deconstructing Dershowitz's smear campaign against Jimmy Carter's supposed Saudi ties
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Deconstructing Dershowitz's smear campaign against Jimmy Carter's supposed Saudi ties
Posted by: Len Miller
» Dershowitz balanced and fair?
Posted by: justaguy
» Dershowitz is anti-gentile
Posted by: DCBeltway
Comments are closed-
Ray Burchard
Posted by: ray burchard on Jun 18, 2007 5:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: ray burchard on Jun 18, 2007 5:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While commending Mr. Fisk for his mastery of the obvious, however posing questions of ethics to the AlterNet readership misses the mark, these ethics anomalies should be taken up with the power that is, corporate America, where a malleable code of ethics is the favored avenue of expedience in their overriding quest for more and more profit. Then also the bought and paid politicians who convert corporate greed, i.e Iraq, into foreign policy, in their effort to create avarice, bolstered by financial gain as the ameliorated Muslim deity.
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Comments are closed-
THE GAZA DOSSIER. 06.16.2007
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excerpted from June 17, 2007 WAWA BLOG from a report by Ben White, freelance journalist specializing in Palestine/Israel. www.benwhite.org.uk
"But it is Israel, as the occupying power, that has primary responsibility for creating the conditions in which Palestinians have turned on each other. The Gaza Strip is a prison, where the prisoners are hungry, unemployed, and brutalized from 40 years of occupation. Israel's military onslaughts of the Second Intifada – which killed thousands and demolished tens of thousands of homes – have left its inhabitants mentally scarred, bereaved, angry, and reduced to the level of penned in animals...
"...Since the PLC elections, carried out democratically and transparently, the legitimate Palestinian government has been subjected to boycott, sanction and threats, and the US and EU have done everything in their power to undermine and destabilize the representatives of the Palestinian people...
"...together with Israel, the US has been openly working to arm Fatah for a coup against Hamas, moves that the latter – who had been elected on the basis of their resistance to Israeli occupation and their track record of humanitarian commitment to the people – were not going to sit by and idly watch. This came only after the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission appeared not to be working. This context is strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) missing from most mainstream media coverage, despite the basic facts being widely in the public domain...
"...most of the blame must lie squarely with Israel, the US and EU, for creating in Gaza conditions in which Hamas felt like they had little choice but to act, and where their program can seem so attractive. Starving and imprisoning a population, destabilizing a democratically-elected government; these are the actions of gangsters and thugs, not peacemakers or statesmen.
"...Hamas is already calling for dialogue with Abbas, while the latter talks of emergency rule and elections. Dialogue is the only way forward for the Palestinians, but dialogue based on some fundamentals; respecting the will of the people, resistance to occupation and colonization, and a break from the collaborating political class of Oslo.
"The US, Britain and the EU, meanwhile, must be forced to stop their blood-stained interference in the Middle East, policies that have led to a 'crescent of death and destruction', from Iraq, to Lebanon and Palestine. That is the real threat."
MUCH MORE:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
"But it is Israel, as the occupying power, that has primary responsibility for creating the conditions in which Palestinians have turned on each other. The Gaza Strip is a prison, where the prisoners are hungry, unemployed, and brutalized from 40 years of occupation. Israel's military onslaughts of the Second Intifada – which killed thousands and demolished tens of thousands of homes – have left its inhabitants mentally scarred, bereaved, angry, and reduced to the level of penned in animals...
"...Since the PLC elections, carried out democratically and transparently, the legitimate Palestinian government has been subjected to boycott, sanction and threats, and the US and EU have done everything in their power to undermine and destabilize the representatives of the Palestinian people...
"...together with Israel, the US has been openly working to arm Fatah for a coup against Hamas, moves that the latter – who had been elected on the basis of their resistance to Israeli occupation and their track record of humanitarian commitment to the people – were not going to sit by and idly watch. This came only after the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission appeared not to be working. This context is strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) missing from most mainstream media coverage, despite the basic facts being widely in the public domain...
"...most of the blame must lie squarely with Israel, the US and EU, for creating in Gaza conditions in which Hamas felt like they had little choice but to act, and where their program can seem so attractive. Starving and imprisoning a population, destabilizing a democratically-elected government; these are the actions of gangsters and thugs, not peacemakers or statesmen.
"...Hamas is already calling for dialogue with Abbas, while the latter talks of emergency rule and elections. Dialogue is the only way forward for the Palestinians, but dialogue based on some fundamentals; respecting the will of the people, resistance to occupation and colonization, and a break from the collaborating political class of Oslo.
"The US, Britain and the EU, meanwhile, must be forced to stop their blood-stained interference in the Middle East, policies that have led to a 'crescent of death and destruction', from Iraq, to Lebanon and Palestine. That is the real threat."
MUCH MORE:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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Comments are closed-
GOOD POINT and do you know about this?
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: wawa on Jun 18, 2007 6:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How often do we hear the refrain, "but the Arabs want to push Israel into the sea"
When it is clear by looking at the new UN map-or the ones on my homepage: http://www.wearewideawake.org/
That the bantustans which make up the occupied territories, clearly show how Israel has "pushed Palestine into the sea!"
Why do we never hear an outcry for Israel to recognize Palestine?
HERE'S WHY:
Excerpted from June 18 WAWA BLOG:
"American support for Israel has hindered international efforts to broker a peace deal in the Middle East, according to a hard-hitting confidential report from the outgoing UN Middle East envoy.
"Alvaro de Soto, who stepped down last month after 25 years at the UN, has exposed the American pressure that he argues has damaged the impartiality of the UN's peace making efforts.
"Mr de Soto reveals that after Hamas won elections last year it wanted to form a broad coalition government with its more moderate rivals, including Fatah, run by the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. But the US discouraged other Palestinian politicians from joining. "We were told that the US was against any 'blurring' of the line dividing Hamas from those Palestinian political forces committed to the two-state solution," Mr de Soto writes. It was a year before a coalition government was finally formed.
"The US also supported the Israeli decision to freeze Palestinian tax revenues. "The Quartet has been prevented from pronouncing on this because the US, as its representatives have intimated to us, does not wish Israel to transfer these funds to the PA [Palestinian Authority]," he writes. "There is a seeming reflex, in any given situation where the UN is to take a position, to ask first how Israel or Washington will react rather than what is the right position to take."
"Mr de Soto opposed the international boycott placed on the Palestinian government after Hamas won elections last year. He argued that it was wrong to use pressure and isolation alone, and proposed retaining dialogue with Hamas. He wanted tougher criticism of Israel as well, but came up against a "heavy barrage" from US officials.
"The effect of the boycott was to seriously damage the Palestinian economy and promote radicalism. It also lifted pressure from Israel. "With all focus on the failings of Hamas, the Israeli settlement enterprise and barrier construction has continued unabated," he writes.
"The report criticises the Palestinians for their violence, and Israel for extending its settlements and barrier in the West Bank. But he also argues that Israeli policies have encouraged continued Palestinian militancy. "I wonder if the Israeli authorities realise that, season after season, they are reaping what they sow, and are systematically pushing along the violence/repression cycle to the point where it is self-propelling," he writes.
The link for de Soto's "End of Mission Report" PDF File is too long to post here, but it is posted on WAWA BLOG June 18:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
When it is clear by looking at the new UN map-or the ones on my homepage: http://www.wearewideawake.org/
That the bantustans which make up the occupied territories, clearly show how Israel has "pushed Palestine into the sea!"
Why do we never hear an outcry for Israel to recognize Palestine?
HERE'S WHY:
Excerpted from June 18 WAWA BLOG:
"American support for Israel has hindered international efforts to broker a peace deal in the Middle East, according to a hard-hitting confidential report from the outgoing UN Middle East envoy.
"Alvaro de Soto, who stepped down last month after 25 years at the UN, has exposed the American pressure that he argues has damaged the impartiality of the UN's peace making efforts.
"Mr de Soto reveals that after Hamas won elections last year it wanted to form a broad coalition government with its more moderate rivals, including Fatah, run by the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. But the US discouraged other Palestinian politicians from joining. "We were told that the US was against any 'blurring' of the line dividing Hamas from those Palestinian political forces committed to the two-state solution," Mr de Soto writes. It was a year before a coalition government was finally formed.
"The US also supported the Israeli decision to freeze Palestinian tax revenues. "The Quartet has been prevented from pronouncing on this because the US, as its representatives have intimated to us, does not wish Israel to transfer these funds to the PA [Palestinian Authority]," he writes. "There is a seeming reflex, in any given situation where the UN is to take a position, to ask first how Israel or Washington will react rather than what is the right position to take."
"Mr de Soto opposed the international boycott placed on the Palestinian government after Hamas won elections last year. He argued that it was wrong to use pressure and isolation alone, and proposed retaining dialogue with Hamas. He wanted tougher criticism of Israel as well, but came up against a "heavy barrage" from US officials.
"The effect of the boycott was to seriously damage the Palestinian economy and promote radicalism. It also lifted pressure from Israel. "With all focus on the failings of Hamas, the Israeli settlement enterprise and barrier construction has continued unabated," he writes.
"The report criticises the Palestinians for their violence, and Israel for extending its settlements and barrier in the West Bank. But he also argues that Israeli policies have encouraged continued Palestinian militancy. "I wonder if the Israeli authorities realise that, season after season, they are reaping what they sow, and are systematically pushing along the violence/repression cycle to the point where it is self-propelling," he writes.
The link for de Soto's "End of Mission Report" PDF File is too long to post here, but it is posted on WAWA BLOG June 18:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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Comments are closed-
I want to commend the alternet readers for a civilized and informed debate about this crucial topic
Posted by: yellow on Jun 18, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: yellow on Jun 18, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thus far. I do believe Israel must engage Hamas in negotiations. This they are owed after Israel's routine rocket attacks, IDF redeployments in Gaza, and targeted assassinations particularly of Sheik Yassin. It is clever to ask how can one respond to a coup by an elected government. If the west bemoans the lack of moderates to talk to let them look at the history of their own foreign policies in the region. The answer is contained therein.
Hamas is a fundamentalist group with the kind of inherent hostilities to Israel that Fatah doesn't bear. Let it be known that Israel is only reaping what it has sown after years of refusing to deal seriously with Fatah including the unnecessary sinking of the OSLO accords in 2000 by allowing Sharon to go to the Haram al Sheriff. The corrupt nature of the PLO worked well for Israel as it was hoped that the PA would become the managers of a string of disconnected bantustans that were viable only as cheap labor reserves for Israeli and Jordanian business. It was further hoped that the PA would sustain their role and fervently defend it as personal beneficiaries of taxes, rents, and licensing fees for the planned industrial parks that were to form a string of Industrial free zones, the Palestinian version of maquiladors. For a full disclosure google PIEFZA, the bureacracy created by the PA in 1998 which invites all manner of direct foreign investment to generate job creation. The illegal Separation Wall, though opposed publically by the PLO, does serve as a latter day "commons enclosure measure" which directly proletarianizes palestinian labor and reduces the independant middle class traders, farmers, and manufacturers to a vast dependant labor pool for global capitalism.
Hamas was a stern rejection of this strategy of the US/Israeli/Fatah elite. And rightly so. Let negotiations begin so a viable state can emerge. Hamas can be practical and eschew violence under the right circumstances. In fact, only the US can bring all the relevant parties to the peace table.
Hamas is a fundamentalist group with the kind of inherent hostilities to Israel that Fatah doesn't bear. Let it be known that Israel is only reaping what it has sown after years of refusing to deal seriously with Fatah including the unnecessary sinking of the OSLO accords in 2000 by allowing Sharon to go to the Haram al Sheriff. The corrupt nature of the PLO worked well for Israel as it was hoped that the PA would become the managers of a string of disconnected bantustans that were viable only as cheap labor reserves for Israeli and Jordanian business. It was further hoped that the PA would sustain their role and fervently defend it as personal beneficiaries of taxes, rents, and licensing fees for the planned industrial parks that were to form a string of Industrial free zones, the Palestinian version of maquiladors. For a full disclosure google PIEFZA, the bureacracy created by the PA in 1998 which invites all manner of direct foreign investment to generate job creation. The illegal Separation Wall, though opposed publically by the PLO, does serve as a latter day "commons enclosure measure" which directly proletarianizes palestinian labor and reduces the independant middle class traders, farmers, and manufacturers to a vast dependant labor pool for global capitalism.
Hamas was a stern rejection of this strategy of the US/Israeli/Fatah elite. And rightly so. Let negotiations begin so a viable state can emerge. Hamas can be practical and eschew violence under the right circumstances. In fact, only the US can bring all the relevant parties to the peace table.
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» Two Cheers For Civilization
Posted by: edith
» I wholeheartedly agree except for the bit of hyperbole at the end aimed at the esteemed Ms. Clinton.
Posted by: yellow
» The "peace" process of the Democrats?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE:Think Again Hilary war monger,many will die
Posted by: SJ
» RE: I want to commend the alternet readers for a civilized and informed debate about this crucial to
Posted by: icj
» Same goes for Hizb'llah.
Posted by: justaguy
» The South African solution is the only workable one - but the US has zero credibility.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Sadly, apartheid is the real future
Posted by: Bobsays
» Wrong again, right-wing troll
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: eretzisrael
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Too bad for you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Some Clarifications...
Posted by: yellow
» The Democrats won't fix anything. Give it a rest.
Posted by: justaguy
» Sorry, But you have no idea what a Democrat will do about the issue once in office so give it a rest
Posted by: yellow
» Laughable analysis. Clinton made progress for Israeli expansion, not much else.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Laughable analysis. Clinton made progress for Israeli expansion, not much else.
Posted by: yellow
» Optimism or fly paper politics?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Call it apartheid, if you must, but nobody wants to live
Posted by: grn1
» I got news for you jerk!!
Posted by: yellow
» Except that it was written for Netanyahu, so no cigar, yellow, you concern troll.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: xcept that it was written for Netanyahu, so no cigar, yellow, you concern troll.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Wait...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jun 18, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jun 18, 2007 6:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... you think the US actually cares about democracy AT ALL????
You must be joking.
We didn't care about it in Guatemala or Chile. We don't even care about it here.
You must be joking.
We didn't care about it in Guatemala or Chile. We don't even care about it here.
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» This has in fact always been my point regarding Israel/Palestine. Yet millions of Paleocons and even
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This has in fact always been my point regarding Israel/Palestine. Yet millions of Paleocons and
Posted by: icj
» Yellow - Dumb Question
Posted by: icj
» These days, the paleo position is the "peace" position
Posted by: edith
» RE: These days, the paleo position is the "peace" position
Posted by: icj
» misread alert
Posted by: edith
» RE: misread alert
Posted by: yellow
» Paleocon Paranoia
Posted by: edith
» RE: Paleocon Paranoia
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
High Colonic Needed
Posted by: jim_altman on Jun 18, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: jim_altman on Jun 18, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, if peace were the actual goal of Northern Hemispheric policy, sane voices like Mr. Fisk's would be heard from every pulpit, podium, and media outlet in the industrial world, but it's not. The goal of the Northern Hemisphere is as it has always been to exploit the resources of those south of the equator to feed its indolence and appetite for luxury. A truly democratic world would not be nearly as plush for those who would be compelled to share rather than horde. The sad irony is that our selfish over-consumption could ultimately detonate the Northern world like some Monty-Pythonesque fat man. What we need, after the Metamucil, is a healthy diet and a good twelve-step program. "Hi, we're the United States, and were over-consumers."
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Comments are closed-
Don't worry!
Posted by: willymack on Jun 18, 2007 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: willymack on Jun 18, 2007 8:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bushies are on the case. They'll handle this situation with the usual excellence and aplomb that they've become deservedly famous for, worldwide. A brief perusal of their dazzling accomplishments over the last six years is all that's needed to put all our minds at ease.
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» Mmm... it has been a star-studded cavalcade of failure, hasn't it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: janvdb on Jun 18, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: janvdb on Jun 18, 2007 8:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Fisk is a well-known writer who should be able to get his well-informed views into the mainstream press. But all I've seen there is bias, warp and cant.
NPR's coverage of the situation just about made me barf yesterday. Sometimes, their biases really show. Sometimes, it really is NJR -- National Jewish Radio. Shameful. Disgusting.
We say we want to spread democracy in the Middle East -- that is the reason for the occupation of Iraq, remember? But when we actually SEE some democracy, as in when the Palestinian people have the effrontery to elect the people they want, we and Israel withhold their OWN tax revenues, creating massive distress and trauma and then stir that up into a civil war by arming the party which lost.
We pour weapons in for Fatah and then our media airs stories complaining that the democratically elected government of Gaza arms itself (by smuggling? Is it smuggling if the duly elected government of an area is doing it?) against our thugs.
Our media twists the entire story to the point that the average person, even the average NPR listener, gets a completely distorted view of what is going on -- we fomented a civil war in Gaza by backing democracy's losers because we don't want to negotiate with the actual Palestinians. We insist on "negotiating" only with our own puppets and propped-up yes-men.
That's not negotiation. That's occupation.
That's cramming things down people's throats against their will.
And then we just can't figure out why it doesn't work.
Gaza is Aushwitz on the Mediterranean. The justification for our continual rehashing of the Holocaust is the cry "Never Again" but the Jews themselves are DOING IT AGAIN.
We need to wake up. We are thinking about this in a totally wrong-headed fashion and the media is full of bias against the Palestinians.
Jan VanDenBerg
NPR's coverage of the situation just about made me barf yesterday. Sometimes, their biases really show. Sometimes, it really is NJR -- National Jewish Radio. Shameful. Disgusting.
We say we want to spread democracy in the Middle East -- that is the reason for the occupation of Iraq, remember? But when we actually SEE some democracy, as in when the Palestinian people have the effrontery to elect the people they want, we and Israel withhold their OWN tax revenues, creating massive distress and trauma and then stir that up into a civil war by arming the party which lost.
We pour weapons in for Fatah and then our media airs stories complaining that the democratically elected government of Gaza arms itself (by smuggling? Is it smuggling if the duly elected government of an area is doing it?) against our thugs.
Our media twists the entire story to the point that the average person, even the average NPR listener, gets a completely distorted view of what is going on -- we fomented a civil war in Gaza by backing democracy's losers because we don't want to negotiate with the actual Palestinians. We insist on "negotiating" only with our own puppets and propped-up yes-men.
That's not negotiation. That's occupation.
That's cramming things down people's throats against their will.
And then we just can't figure out why it doesn't work.
Gaza is Aushwitz on the Mediterranean. The justification for our continual rehashing of the Holocaust is the cry "Never Again" but the Jews themselves are DOING IT AGAIN.
We need to wake up. We are thinking about this in a totally wrong-headed fashion and the media is full of bias against the Palestinians.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Blade
» You can state it better
Posted by: edith
» RE: You can state it better
Posted by: SholomB
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» "Auschwitz on the Mediterranean"? If so, there'd be no Gaza left!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Great to see the truth published, but why only on Alternet?
Posted by: yellow
» Double standards from the zionist twins yellow and Len.
Posted by: justaguy
Comments are closed-
Hmmm...
Posted by: helenwheels on Jun 18, 2007 9:28 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: helenwheels on Jun 18, 2007 9:28 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most Americans haven't even noticed the U.S. coup d'etat by BushCo in 2000... so why would they notice someone else's? Or care? They're too busy eating McDonald's and swilling cokes and playing video games.
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» No this is a myth
Posted by: DCBeltway
Comments are closed-
Joy in US/IsraelLand
Posted by: shinseiji on Jun 18, 2007 11:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: shinseiji on Jun 18, 2007 11:42 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They can hardly contain their glee on the main US media outlets: CNN, Fox, MSNBC, the NYT, etc. Now they have a blank check for and clear shot at "doing a Fallujah" the Warsaw Ghetto of the Middle East - incidentally in the hope of reviving Israel's tattered military reputation after the humiliation in Lebanon - while also completing the buyout of the PLO.
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Comments are closed-
Bullshit
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:30 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:30 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not a word about stopping ther "poor' terrosrists from killing and maiming civilians. More Jewphobic bullshit. Nothing about Arafat reneging on Oslo or any other agreement. Nothing about Arafat refusing to accept Barak's deal. Nothing about what HAMAS says to willing ears of Jewphobes versus what they say to the people. Palestinians have their own Un aid agency and receive $300 per person vs $42 for the rest of sub Sharan Africa. Nothing about the over 1,143 civilians murdered since 2,000. Nothing about the 12 killed by qassam rockets this year. One sided bullshit. This where I disagree with liberal mantra (Israel/Jew hatred).
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» Watch which way the wind blows
Posted by: edith
» one sided?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: one sided?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» About those 1,143 civilians murdered . . .
Posted by: Rune
» Also...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Jewphobe Feeding Frenzy
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:34 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: AmIsraelChai on Jun 18, 2007 12:34 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now I know where to go to get my daily dose of myths and Jew bashing. Does Suha Arafat still collect $300,000 a month from the PA while the people suffer. Israel controls the water and electricity in Gaza. Cutting it off would not be humanitarian (not that Plaestinians are humanitarian as the peace activist Zohair Hamdan--you cant because he was murdered).
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» RE: Jewphobe Feeding Frenzy
Posted by: Francis
» Frances you're a bigoted moron.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Calling a spade a club
Posted by: Francis on Jun 18, 2007 1:26 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Francis on Jun 18, 2007 1:26 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the title, "the hypocritical west". No mention of Israel. Fisk is Jewish after all, so his criticism can only run so deep.
The bloodbath that is about to occur will warm the hearts of Zionists everywhere. How they love their little holocausts. What fun these slow and steady ethnic cleansing rituals are for Likudniks and their silent fans. Like savoring cashews one at a time. And, oh boy, a chance to expunge the Lebanese humiliation. Life is good! OyVay!
The bloodbath that is about to occur will warm the hearts of Zionists everywhere. How they love their little holocausts. What fun these slow and steady ethnic cleansing rituals are for Likudniks and their silent fans. Like savoring cashews one at a time. And, oh boy, a chance to expunge the Lebanese humiliation. Life is good! OyVay!
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» Fisk is Jewish? I think not.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Calling a spade a club
Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Fisk is a norweigan name
Posted by: Francis
» No, I think you are mistaken.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: No, I think you are mistaken.
Posted by: Francis
» Nope.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Nope.
Posted by: Francis
» Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: yellow
» Fisk is English.(nm)
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: Francis
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: yellow
» Why do you always resort to the "racist" smear, yellow? Are you a concern troll by any chance?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Fisk wouldn't lie you just confused him with someone else.
Posted by: Francis
Comments are closed-
The South African solution...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 18, 2007 2:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 18, 2007 2:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is the one that both the left and the right are opposed to, so it is probably the only one that will really work.
It will entail, first and foremost, a separation of Church and State in Israel and Palestine, and the formation of a single country.
The walls will have to come down, and both Palestinians and Israelis will be able to travel freely throughout their new country, which should be called "Jerusalem".
It's likely that many Israelis will withdraw into gated communities surrounded by barbed wire and guards, as has happened in South Africa, and that great economic divides will exist in the new country.
They'll need a "Truth and Reconciliation" committee that will examine the Hamas-Fatah suicide bombings, the covert support from foreign countries for various sides, as well as a review of covert Israeli activities in Palestine.
They should also be very strongly encouraged to give up all of their nuclear weapons and to abandon all such plans for the future, as was the case for South Africa.
Who would be the winners? The peaceable, hardworking, educated middle classes of Israel and Palestine! Who would be the losers? The various wild-eyed religious fanatics of both Zionism and Wahhabi Islam, the Christian evangelists who would be denied their little Armageddeon, and all the political interests who want to see the conflict continue for geopolitical reasons, and who are deeply opposed to peace in the Middle East.
I mean, if everyone in the Middle East stopped fighting, who would they sell the weapons to?
It will entail, first and foremost, a separation of Church and State in Israel and Palestine, and the formation of a single country.
The walls will have to come down, and both Palestinians and Israelis will be able to travel freely throughout their new country, which should be called "Jerusalem".
It's likely that many Israelis will withdraw into gated communities surrounded by barbed wire and guards, as has happened in South Africa, and that great economic divides will exist in the new country.
They'll need a "Truth and Reconciliation" committee that will examine the Hamas-Fatah suicide bombings, the covert support from foreign countries for various sides, as well as a review of covert Israeli activities in Palestine.
They should also be very strongly encouraged to give up all of their nuclear weapons and to abandon all such plans for the future, as was the case for South Africa.
Who would be the winners? The peaceable, hardworking, educated middle classes of Israel and Palestine! Who would be the losers? The various wild-eyed religious fanatics of both Zionism and Wahhabi Islam, the Christian evangelists who would be denied their little Armageddeon, and all the political interests who want to see the conflict continue for geopolitical reasons, and who are deeply opposed to peace in the Middle East.
I mean, if everyone in the Middle East stopped fighting, who would they sell the weapons to?
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» RE: The South African solution...
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Why did Hamas win the election?
Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 18, 2007 3:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 18, 2007 3:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why did Hamas win the election?
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» RE: Why did Hamas win the election?
Posted by: leerhok
Comments are closed-
Playing Ball the Washington/Tel Aviv Way
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 18, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 18, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fatah was willing to agree much more readily to the dictates of the USA and Israel then Hamas ever would or ever will. The USA and Israel know this. When any government or dictator no longer "plays ball the Washington way," you know they are in trouble. Cases in point, the USA attempted coup against Chavez, and of course, "taking out Saddam." Remember, Saddam was "Washington's boy," right up till he invaded Kuwait. You can find pictures of him and Rumsfeld shaking hands and chumming up all over the web. As for atrocities, the USA knew it all but actually wanted Saddam to stay in power, especially when he went to war with Iran. So none of that mattered. However, Saddam crossed the line when he invaded the USA good buddy, good friend state of Kuwait. So, he was slotted for removal and a lesson to be made of him. As for Fatah, playing ball the Washington way means agreeing to the USA/Israel decided Palestine state borders (with the best land carved out being ceded to Israel for settlements), and agreeing to a state where Israel "controls all matters of security, etc." Now, this is a screw job for the Palestinian people so Hamas is not too excited. However, we have yet to see how this will work out. You can bet, however, that not "playing ball" the Washington way, can lead to very serious consequences indeed.
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» RE: Playing Ball the Washington/Tel Aviv Way
Posted by: SoyJudio
Comments are closed-
HAMAS
Posted by: gellero on Jun 18, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: gellero on Jun 18, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas and its Iranian and Syrian backers are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. So what if they were democratically elected. Israel conquered territory....they're not going to give it all back. And why should they?? To be nice guys?? Gaza had it's chance to live in peace after the Israelis withdrew. But they continued hostilities. The next Israeli move will be to seize a strip along the Egyptian border to prevent smuggling arms. Can't blame them at all. read their viewpoin here
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» RE: HAMAS
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: HAMAS
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: Right of return
Posted by: asilsfable
» I would agree...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» try facts?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» WRONG!
Posted by: pierrot
» RE: HAMAS who?
Posted by: pierrot
Comments are closed-
One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: SoyJudio on Jun 18, 2007 7:39 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: SoyJudio on Jun 18, 2007 7:39 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is impossible. Their little minds are made up. Don't bother them with facts--they make up their own.
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» Interesting that anyone who criticizes Israel is a "jew hater".
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: leerhok
» RE: One Can't Reason With Jewhaters
Posted by: Len Miller
» Leerhook is anti-gentile
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Mate, you're an idiot...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Mate, you're an idiot...
Posted by: DCBeltway
» The comment was for Len the idiot.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: The comment was for Len the idiot.
Posted by: DCBeltway
» Leerhok: are you really that much of an idiot or do you just play one on Alternet?
Posted by: thumber77
Comments are closed-
Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: thumber77 on Jun 18, 2007 7:58 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: thumber77 on Jun 18, 2007 7:58 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hamas wants (and is creating in Gaza) a world where women are forced to be veiled, not allowed to leave their homes. Hamas is for the execution of gays and the destruction of non-Muslim religious facilities. Hamas is not a Palestinian creation, but rather is funded and its leaders are puppets to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Syrians, and the Iranians. Many of the people commenting think they must be for Hamas since Hamas is against the U.S. and Israel, but ... Would you have supported a coup by Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay and our home-grown fundamentalists against Clinton because the US fundamentalists won the last election? There is no room to negotiate with Hamas or any other religious fanatics who think that God is telling them what to do. Is there anyone in this thread who praises Hamas who would like to move to Gaza and live under their Sharia regime? If the day comes that Hamas gains broader power, they will round up and kill all the 'useful idiots' who are defending them here.
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» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: SoyJudio
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: hellofriends
» SJ like every other a---hole who has an opinion but don't confuse him/her with the facts
Posted by: thumber77
» Except Democracy huh?
Posted by: justaguy
» Palestine has both a President AND a Parliament
Posted by: thumber77
» Israel and the US instigated the fighting...
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Hamas is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: lotus23
» RE: Hamas and the readership of Alternet is against everything that Progressive Americans are for
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
World War 3
Posted by: vertical on Jun 18, 2007 8:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: vertical on Jun 18, 2007 8:26 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America in Iraq and Afganastan, Isreal Palaestine and Lebenon, Turkey and Kurdastan. Oh boy! World War 3 here we come.
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Comments are closed-
Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller on Jun 19, 2007 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: Len Miller on Jun 19, 2007 10:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Mr. Fisk:
When it comes to Israel, the World has a distinct blind spot. I am trying to understand and define it. It seems that one does not question the right of self-defense to any other country-- except Israel. When it defends itself from attack, rockets and missiles lobbed into it's civilian population, it is called an occupier, a "war monger" and worse by many commentators on this site. I cannot imagine that the same would be said if Enland were defending itself from German rockets, or if Miami were being shelled by Cuba. The World stood ready and able to join the USA in Afghanistan after 9/11. There would not have been protest but for the hideous Bush policies and the invasion of Iraq. Not so for Israel. I find that offensive and bigoted.
I have no problem with the general position of your article;i.e, that there should be diplomatic negotiation with one's enemies. However, I do take issue with you that elections create in the elected a reasonable partner for peace. I am sure that you have read the Hamas covenant.
It leaves no room for a 2 state solution or any accomodation for anyone but Islamists-Note Article 11:" Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Islamic aqf:
Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of JudgementThis being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? "Artilce 12 continues: Article Twelve:
"Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land". And take a look at 13:"Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion" It gets worse:" There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."
So much for peaceful solutions and negotiations. Remember,Hitler and the Nazis were also elected. "PEACE IN OUR TIME".
When it comes to Israel, the World has a distinct blind spot. I am trying to understand and define it. It seems that one does not question the right of self-defense to any other country-- except Israel. When it defends itself from attack, rockets and missiles lobbed into it's civilian population, it is called an occupier, a "war monger" and worse by many commentators on this site. I cannot imagine that the same would be said if Enland were defending itself from German rockets, or if Miami were being shelled by Cuba. The World stood ready and able to join the USA in Afghanistan after 9/11. There would not have been protest but for the hideous Bush policies and the invasion of Iraq. Not so for Israel. I find that offensive and bigoted.
I have no problem with the general position of your article;i.e, that there should be diplomatic negotiation with one's enemies. However, I do take issue with you that elections create in the elected a reasonable partner for peace. I am sure that you have read the Hamas covenant.
It leaves no room for a 2 state solution or any accomodation for anyone but Islamists-Note Article 11:" Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Islamic aqf:
Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of JudgementThis being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? "Artilce 12 continues: Article Twelve:
"Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land". And take a look at 13:"Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion" It gets worse:" There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."
So much for peaceful solutions and negotiations. Remember,Hitler and the Nazis were also elected. "PEACE IN OUR TIME".
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» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Logic escapes you
Posted by: OhioPatriot
Comments are closed-
The Root of the Evil
Posted by: leerhok on Jun 19, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: leerhok on Jun 19, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Almost every single population on earth lives on stolen land. Land grabbed once or rather several times by killing the inhabitants or making them flee. After a few years it is OK/just to reverse such a landgrab. But after considerable time status quo will be the lesser evil and reoccupation the greater one.
To do it after some 3.000 years simply is a recipe for disaster. Which history has proven beyond any doubt!!!
Giving land to establish a jewish state as punishment for Holocaust is completely OK. But far from it when a totally innocent third party is handed the verdict instead of the guilty nation(s)!!!
To do it after some 3.000 years simply is a recipe for disaster. Which history has proven beyond any doubt!!!
Giving land to establish a jewish state as punishment for Holocaust is completely OK. But far from it when a totally innocent third party is handed the verdict instead of the guilty nation(s)!!!
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» Good point. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: lotus23
» And zionists collaberated with the Nazis too. What is the relevance to today?
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Good point. nm Really?
Posted by: jmp3954
» Also, learn your common law on squatting, Len
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
ANOTHER POINT of VIEW
Posted by: gellero on Jun 19, 2007 4:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: gellero on Jun 19, 2007 4:32 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Things are not as clearcut as the Luddite states.........
LOOK AT IT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW
LOOK AT IT FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW
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» Horowitz is a worse racist that Dershowitz.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Horowitz is a worse racist that Dershowitz.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Emergency! Calling all Zionazis!
Posted by: opeluboy on Jun 19, 2007 4:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: opeluboy on Jun 19, 2007 4:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hurry, hurry! There's another article on AlterNet critical of Israel! Muster your forces and trot out the tired propaganda! There's not a moment to lose! Americans are waking up! Hurl accusations of "anti-Semitism." Whine about the Holocaust! Compare someone — anyone — to Hitler!
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Comments are closed-
OTHER ALTERNATIVE MEDIA
Posted by: chamela on Jun 19, 2007 9:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: chamela on Jun 19, 2007 9:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.sandersresearch.com
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.onlinejournal.com
http://www.larouchepub.com
http://www.danielestulin.com/?op=noticias&idioma=en
http://www.carolynbaker.org
http://www.globalresearch.ca
http://www.onlinejournal.com
http://www.larouchepub.com
http://www.danielestulin.com/?op=noticias&idioma=en
http://www.carolynbaker.org
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» WARNING LAROUCHE LOONY ON THE LOOSE
Posted by: thumber77
Comments are closed-
Coup d'etat?
Posted by: fitzjohn on Jun 20, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: fitzjohn on Jun 20, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Was it a coup by Abbas, or did he have the legal right to dissolve and re-form his government under the PA constitution? Does the US have the right to extend aid to that government in these circumstances? Does the US have the right to refuse aid to a rebel government?
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Comments are closed-
I See
Posted by: call_kirk on Jun 20, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: call_kirk on Jun 20, 2007 9:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I See
Mr. Carter is a former president who has sold out to Saudi Arabian money simple as that - note his funding from even the bin laden corporation,
The middle east conflict is easily misunderstood by left wing. "End the occupation ...blah ..blah .. blah"
The simple fact is that in the Moslem/ Arab mindset it is all on the path to world domination by the believers.
Once Moslem land it can never go back.
Simple as that
Forget truisms and slogans contrary
It is interesting to note that the Jews/ Isreali's moved to the middle. The "arabs " voted in Hamas.
Look at how they behave.
A one state solution ??
Look like a very civilized group even after 25 years of interaction with the west,
One giant welfare case from the west.
The arab oil sheiks have done nothing except squander money on armamemts. But then again the whole issue in the eyes of the moslem world is 'Once Moslem land it can never go back"
But then again Jimmy the jews killed Jesus.
What was Jesus doing there in historic Palestine anyways ?
being a good baptist or a Moslem ?
Mr. Carter is a former president who has sold out to Saudi Arabian money simple as that - note his funding from even the bin laden corporation,
The middle east conflict is easily misunderstood by left wing. "End the occupation ...blah ..blah .. blah"
The simple fact is that in the Moslem/ Arab mindset it is all on the path to world domination by the believers.
Once Moslem land it can never go back.
Simple as that
Forget truisms and slogans contrary
It is interesting to note that the Jews/ Isreali's moved to the middle. The "arabs " voted in Hamas.
Look at how they behave.
A one state solution ??
Look like a very civilized group even after 25 years of interaction with the west,
One giant welfare case from the west.
The arab oil sheiks have done nothing except squander money on armamemts. But then again the whole issue in the eyes of the moslem world is 'Once Moslem land it can never go back"
But then again Jimmy the jews killed Jesus.
What was Jesus doing there in historic Palestine anyways ?
being a good baptist or a Moslem ?
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» RE: I See
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: I smell racism and lies.
Posted by: justaguy
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