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Rise of the New Atheists

By Ronald Aronson, The Nation. Posted June 16, 2007.


An increasingly outspoken community of atheists and agnostics is getting fed up with being marginalized, ignored and insulted.

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What began with publisher W.W. Norton taking a chance on a gutsy, hyperbolic and idiosyncratic attack on religion by a graduate student in neuroscience has grown into a remarkable intellectual wave. No fewer than five books by the New Atheists have appeared on bestseller lists in the past two years -- Sam Harris's The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell, Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion and now Christopher Hitchens's God Is Not Great. The scandalized media have both attacked and inflated the phenomenon. After the New York Times Book Review, for example, ran a thoughtful review of Harris and then a negative front-page review of Dawkins, the daily paper published two weak op-ed attacks on the writers and a vapid article on how atheists celebrate Christmas, followed by tongue-in-cheek admiration in the Book Review for Hitchens's ability to promote his career by saying the unexpected.

Despite such dubious blessings, the four have become must-read writers. The most remarkable fact is not their books themselves -- blunt, no-holds-barred attacks on religion in different registers -- but that they have succeeded in reaching mainstream readers and in becoming bestsellers. Is this because Americans are beginning to get fed up with the religiosity of the past several years? It would be comforting if we could explain this as a cultural signal of the end of the right-wing/evangelical ascendancy. Such speculations are probably wishful thinking -- book buyers are such a small slice of the population that few sociologists would stake their careers on claiming that book buyers' preferences reflect anything like a national mood.

The success of the New Atheists may, however, reflect something significant among their audience. In the past generation in the United States, atheists, agnostics and secular humanists have been a timid minority -- almost voiceless, often on the defensive, routinely derided, both warned against and ignored. As Susan Jacoby pointed out in her book Freethinkers, it is symptomatic of the situation that the most dramatic presidential address in generations took place in the National Cathedral three days after September 11, 2001, so filled with religious language that it sounded like a sermon. It was delivered by a President flanked by Jewish, Muslim and Christian representatives, a model of religious inclusiveness, without anyone standing alongside them representing the tens of millions of nonreligious Americans. At this most important collective moment in our recent history, it was as if they did not exist. This is what the polls are telling us: Virtually everyone in America believes in God.

We know how zealously the conservative Christian denominations have politicized themselves in the past generation, how the GOP has harnessed this energy by embracing their demands -- opposing stem-cell research, gay marriage and abortion rights, championing government aid to religious schools and faith-based social programs -- and by appointing sympathetic judges. So effectively have they framed the issues that, according to the Pew Research Center's 2006 report on religion and public life, fully 69 percent of Americans believe that liberals have "gone too far in trying to keep religion out of schools and government."

We commonly hear that only a tiny percentage of Americans don't believe in God and that, as a Newsweek poll claimed this spring, 91 percent do. In fact, this is not true. How many unbelievers are there? The question is difficult to assess accurately because of the challenges of constructing survey questions that do not tap into the prevailing biases about religion. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, which interviewed more than 50,000 people, more than 29 million adults -- one in seven Americans -- declare themselves to be without religion. The more recent Baylor Religion Survey ("American Piety in the 21st Century") of more than 1,700 people, which bills itself as "the most extensive and sensitive study of religion ever conducted," calls for adjusting this number downward to exclude those who believe in a God but do not belong to a religion. Fair enough. But Baylor's own Gallup survey is a bit shaky for at least two reasons.

It counts anyone who believes in a "higher power" but not God as believing in God -- casting a vast net over adherents of everything from spirit to history to love. Yet the study allows unbelievers only one option: to not believe in "anything beyond the physical world," leaving no space for those who regard themselves as agnostics or skeptics, secularists or humanists. Contrast this with a more recent and more nuanced Financial Times/Harris poll of Europeans and Americans that allowed respondents to declare agnosticism as well as atheism: 18 percent of the more than 2,000 American respondents chose one or the other, while 73 percent affirmed belief in God or a supreme being.

A more general issue affects American surveys on religious beliefs, namely, the "social desirability effect," in which respondents are reluctant to give an unpopular answer in a society in which being religious is the norm. What happens when questions are framed to overcome this distortion? The FT/H poll tried to counteract it by allowing space not only for the customary "Not sure" but also for "Would prefer not to say" -- and 6 percent of Americans chose this as their answer to the question of whether they believed in God or a supreme being. Add to this those who declared themselves as atheists or agnostics and, lo and behold, the possible sum of unbelievers is nearly one in four Americans.

All this helps explain the popularity of the New Atheists -- Americans as a whole may not be getting too much religion, but a significant constituency must be getting fed up with being routinely marginalized, ignored and insulted. After all, unbelievers are concentrated at the higher end of the educational scale -- a recent Harris American poll shows that 31 percent of those with postgraduate education do not avow belief in God (compared with only 14 percent of those with a high school education or less). The percentage rises among professors and then again among professors at research universities, reaching 93 percent among members of the National Academy of Sciences. Unbelievers are to be found concentrated among those whose professional lives emphasize science or rationality and who also have developed a relatively high level of confidence in their own intellectual faculties. And they are frequently teachers or opinion-makers.

But over the past generation they have come to feel beleaguered and, except for rare individuals like comedian and talk-show host Bill Maher, voiceless in the public arena. The great success of the New Atheists is to have reached them, both speaking to and for them. These writers are devoted, with sledgehammer force and angry urgency, to "breaking the spell" cast by the religious ascendancy, to overcoming a situation in which every other area of life can be critically analyzed while admittedly irrational religious faith is made central to American life but exempted from serious discussion.

This does not make for restraint. Harris displays brash self-confidence, Hitchens and Dawkins angry intellectual bite and Dennett an inexhaustible theoretical energy and range of inquiry. Harris excoriates religious moderates, accusing them of providing cover for fundamentalists at home and abroad by refusing to contest the extremists' premises -- because they share them. More upbeat, Dennett is devoted to creating the intellectual conditions for future discussions, in which religion will be treated as just another "natural" phenomenon and accordingly subjected to critical scrutiny. Dawkins bulldozes his way through every major argument for religious belief, and a great many minor ones. And Hitchens endlessly catalogues religion's crimes and absurdities. Each man is at war, writing as if no others had preceded him, and with a passion that can only be described as political.

Above all, each sees himself as breaking a taboo. This explains not only the vigor and urgency of these books, their mainstream character and their publishing success but also the common refrain in reviews that they have "gone too far." Of course they have, because their many faults are often inseparable from their strengths. Self-indulgence is their common flaw: Dennett and Dawkins might have considered their readers more and disciplined their own need to follow out every line of thought, while Harris is so full of his point of view that he, like Hitchens, is unable to consider faith as anything but stupid. They show little understanding of religion or interest in it [see Daniel Lazare, "Among the Disbelievers," May 28]. Still, I am surprised by the hostility and bemusement expressed toward them by their fellow travelers in The New York Review of Books, The New Yorker and The London Review of Books. In attacking religion the four have been breaking the taboo against talking about it seriously, and they may be forgiven for not being calmer, more expert or more measured. Doing battle with what they see as the most pervasive and bothersome phenomenon in American life during the past generation, Harris, Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens deserve praise for their courage and tenacity in shattering its spell.

Where does the work of the New Atheists leave us? I hope they have roused a significant portion of America from its timidity. But to what end? Living without God means turning toward something. To flourish we need coherent secular popular philosophies that effectively answer life's vital questions. Enlightenment optimism once supplied unbelievers with hope for a better world, whether this was based on Marxism, science, education or democracy. After Progress, after Marxism, is it any wonder atheism fell on hard times? Restoring secular confidence will take much positive work as well as the fierce attacks on religion by our atheist champions. On a societal level, as Ronald Inglehart and Pippa Norris point out in Sacred and Secular, living without God requires creating conditions in which people are free from the kinds of existential vulnerability that have marked all human societies until the advent of Europe's postindustrial welfare states. Markedly more religious than any of them, the United States provides a life that is far more unequal and far more insecure.

The surprising response to the New Atheist offensive should thus inspire us to think politically as well as philosophically. As a first step this demands creating a coalition between unbelievers and their natural allies, secular-minded believers. I am speaking first about many millions of Americans who nominally belong to a religion but effectively live without any active relationship either to it or to God, or belong to a church and attend services but are "tacit atheists," living day in and day out with only token reference to God. And I also include the many believers who accept the principle of America as a secular society. These include members of the liberal Jewish and Christian denominations, who have long practice in accommodating themselves to science and the modern world and who, as the National Council of Churches website tells us, may remain inspired by Genesis while not needing to take it in "literal, factual terms." Many of these turned up in the most significant finding of the Baylor survey, namely that more than one in four American "believers" does not mean by this a personal God at all but a distant God who has little or nothing to do with the world or themselves. This sounds very much like the deist God of "unbelievers" Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

These believers, along with those who think of themselves as "spiritual," as well as professed unbelievers, help to explain why according to the Pew study so many Americans -- 32 percent -- want less religious influence on government. Twenty-four percent say that President Bush talks too much about his religious faith and prayer, and 28 percent deny that the United States is a Christian nation. Most dramatically, a whopping 49 percent believe that Christian conservatives have gone too far "in trying to impose their religious values on the country." This, then, is an unreported secret of American life: Considerable numbers of Americans, religious and secular, are becoming fed up with the in-your-face religion that has come to mark our society.

Until now the most vocal left-of-center response to the Christian right, for example by Sojourners, has been to call for more religion in politics, not less. In early June the group organized a nationally televised forum at which John Edwards, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton testified to their faith, talking about the "hand of God" (Edwards), forgiveness (Obama) and prayer (Clinton). Few loud-and-clear voices have been agitating in the mainstream on behalf of the separation of church and state, for secular and public education, or demanding less rather than more political discussion of religion. Yet tens of millions of Americans worry about such things.

Whether most of them continue to believe in God matters much less than that they are comfortable with secular knowledge and America's secular Constitution. Barry Lynn, for example, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, is a Protestant minister. Although Harris and Dawkins castigate all believers for sharing the premises of conservative Christians, the fact is that many believers could easily be working with out-and-out atheists and agnostics on key issues.

Such a coalition should take the offensive on behalf of American constitutional promises of a secular society, increasingly under threat from Bush's Supreme Court appointments. It will gain support in unexpected places: Judge John Jones III, a Bush appointee, delivered a devastating blow to the forces behind "intelligent design" in his December 2005 decision in the Dover School Board case. The first half of his impressive decision contains a crystal-clear reflection on what science is and why intelligent design, a refurbished form of creationism, is religion, not science. The second half reads like a whodunit, revealing how a minority on the school board conspired to impose intelligent design on the district. It should be a rallying point for the nearly half of all Americans who are disturbed by right-wing religious attempts to impose their faith on the rest of us. An immediate goal should be a call for the publication and widest possible distribution of the Dover decision. It could become another bestseller -- by a conservative judge no less! -- and a text for civics, current events, history, law and basic science classes.

A second goal of such a coalition might be a campaign to reorient American thinking about atheists and atheism. In recent polls, far more respondents have declared themselves willing to vote for a woman or African-American for President than for an atheist -- atheists are more unpopular than gays. Television news viewers are encouraged to nod in agreement with such ageless gibes as "There are no atheists in foxholes" without seeing just how nasty they are. This obnoxious remark, by Katie Couric on NBC's Today show, drew a few complaints and letters, but no wider protests or apology. A coalition determined to widen the range of socially acceptable belief could make a significant difference on such issues.

A broad secular coalition could also demand more nuanced discussion of the range of belief and unbelief in America today. Rather than consciously or unconsciously promoting religious belief, public opinion research should try to register a full range of beliefs, including the interesting and perplexing ways in which people live secular as well as religious lives and their sometimes contradictory combinations. These are rejected by Harris, Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens, and ignored by the media and mainstream politicians.

Finally, such an alliance could become one place where Dennett's goal of discussing religion openly and critically -- as well as atheism and agnosticism -- could begin to be realized. A number of questions might be explored: What, for example, is the common ground and what are the differences between believers and unbelievers? And -- I save for last the touchiest question of all -- shouldn't all Americans be instructed in the great religious and secular traditions, as well as their greatest books? After all, achieving literacy in both religion and secularism might allow us to discuss them more intelligently.

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See more stories tagged with: sam harris, atheism, richard dawkins

Ronald Aronson is the author of The Dialectics of Disaster, After Marxism and Camus and Sartre: The Story of a Friendship and the Quarrel That Ended It. His latest book is Living Without God, to be published next year by Counterpoint. He teaches at Wayne State University.

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A good article; a few thoughts and criticisms
Posted by: jwc on Jun 16, 2007 1:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was very pleased to find such an important (to me anyway) article on alternet. Here are some thoughts on a few quotes that stuck out as I was reading:

"Dawkins might have considered their readers more and disciplined their own need to follow out every line of thought, while Harris is so full of his point of view that he, like "Hitchens, is unable to consider faith as anything but stupid."

-I define faith as believing in something for no other reason than wanting it to be true. I might take it even further and say it was believing in something because there was no evidence for it. Yes, I believe that faith is stupid.

"Living without God means turning toward something."

-I, and many other atheists, am sick of hearing this as if it were a legitimate argument. It's like saying "living without the tooth fairy means turning toward something." No, it doesn't. It means I have more time to focus on more important things, like reality.

"And -- I save for last the touchiest question of all -- shouldn't all Americans be instructed in the great religious and secular traditions, as well as their greatest books? After all, achieving literacy in both religion and secularism might allow us to discuss them more intelligently."

-I'm not sure why the author felt this were a touchy question. I am a teacher and wholeheartedly agree that everyone (myself included) would benefit from being better educated in all the major world religions. I'm certainly willing to have an intelligent conversation about religion, and am even willing to have it in a public school classroom (in the context of a religious studies course, not in a biology class). I also contend that non-fundamentalist christians are the ones who most need an education about their religion, as I think you would be hard-pressed to find many that had actually read the bible in full and understood how ridiculous it is.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: "Rights" and "God" Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: "Rights" and "God" Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: "Rights" and "God" Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: teach how to fish Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: jmooney
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: oops Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: Doubtom
» Bad argument Posted by: themotie
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: jmooney
» A fallacy Posted by: themotie
» RE: he'll never get it, jwc Posted by: mstrschld
» Not so Posted by: themotie
» Proof of Tim Posted by: maddy
» RE: Proof of Tim Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Proof of Tim Posted by: hallogallo
» Faith hurts Posted by: Fog
It is about time someone blew down the door on the taboo against criticizing religion -
Posted by: zyxwvut on Jun 16, 2007 1:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
with a stick of dynamite no less! Religion is retarded, offering no evidence while making extravagant claims, preaching moral rectitude while accumulating power and motivating atrocities.

I cannot stand criticisms of pro-science views which claim that advocates of science go too far - that they become dogmatic. Last I read, the Big Bang theory and evolution were quite well evidenced, both empirically and rationally (in terms of fitting with an internally consistent naturalistic ontology). Religion has never backed up its claims so well, or at all.

Also, there is a problem with "epistemological libertarianism," which I define as the conviction that it is perfectly fine to believe in absurdities at the individual level as long as these beliefs do not penetrate the larger structures of society, especially government. Epistemological libertarianism accepts the individual's right to adopt atheism, religion, philosophy, or any other worldview without being sanctioned by society, as if every one of them is equally valid.

But libertarianism serves the interests of freedom, even the freedom to ignorance, when people would be better served by facts and reality. If there is a possibility of dismantling the religious norms of American culture, we would do better to replace the existential system of religion with one of science - one where people are pressured to learn and respect science, making it the lens through which the majority views the world. In this scenario, a scientific worldview would be supported by the power of social norms. This scenario contrasts with epitemological libertarianism in that the latter would not apply a normative structure to bolster one view or another, thus allowing religion to coexist with science, and therefore to go on deluding people with its myths and to continue making its claims of metaphysical supremacy.

Instead of a society that (ostensibly) strives toward the ideals of freedom, perhaps we should aim for a society that emphasizes the ideals of truth.

Still, at this time it would be prudent to ally with people who want to drive religion out of the public and official spheres, whether or not they want science to gain ascendency in its place.

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» Irreducible Primary Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: Not so fast... Posted by: ekipnrut
» Probably! Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Probably! Posted by: zyxwvut
» Mischaracterization Posted by: zyxwvut
» Emergence and Reductionism Posted by: zyxwvut
» It depends ... Posted by: themotie
» HAHAHA EOM Posted by: Fog
“the possible sum of unbelievers is nearly one in four Americans”
Posted by: freedom on Jun 16, 2007 1:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Polls are probably not accurate when it comes to who believes in God in America, as most people in a society are overwhelmed by the status quo or the “social desirability effect” as Aronson puts it. Although I don’t believe in “God” I do have my little superstitions which I am quite happy with. Everyone ought to be able to have them without being called ignorant or discriminated against; that is, as long as you don’t create an organized religion and culture where it becomes socially undesirable for others not to believe. This has been one of the problems with all organized religion.

Robert Lightfoot

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Another Problem with Baylor Study
Posted by: Tatarize on Jun 16, 2007 2:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They class atheists at 5% because those are the only people who said that God, absolutely doesn't exist. Not those who don't believe, or those who think they chance to too low to avoid laughing at... just those who say absolutely doesn't exist. The Baylor study would declare Richard Dawkins a theist.

That's a pretty big problem.

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» "Flexibility" of atheism Posted by: justAnEgg
» Yes Posted by: cmysticism
» Get out of my head Posted by: Fog
» **applause** Posted by: themotie
Why did you have to ruin it?
Posted by: NaomiC on Jun 16, 2007 4:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By finishing with this:

And -- I save for last the touchiest question of all -- shouldn't all Americans be instructed in the great religious and secular traditions, as well as their greatest books? After all, achieving literacy in both religion and secularism might allow us to discuss them more intelligently.

I wasn't always an atheist. So I have read the bible; in fact, I've read it more thoroughly than most of the theists I talk with. But as a general rule, most of the theists I've talked with have read few books, and not even their bible!

Sometimes, I think they don't read it because it's such a long book. In the meantime, they know that every Sunday, someone will interpret it for them, in small bite-sized, easy-to-digest portions. What they don't know is there are things buried in the bible that they wouldn't agree to; their interpreters skirt around these unpalatable parts, like stoning disrespectful children! Instead, they take as "gospel" that homosexuality is evil; it's only evil in the OT. And abortion is not mentioned at all.

But I do like your numbers. It is heartening to see "almost one in four", instead of the piddling 3% that the RaptureRight insists is the portion of atheists in the US.

To all the theists that would like us to STFU, I say, "Step back from the Constitution. Keep your hands off our government and your eyes off our bodies and out of our bedrooms. Just mind your own damned business". At that point, when we no longer hear a peep out of you theists, we'll go back to being the silent menace that threatens your faith.

We're the "monster in the closet", aren't we? *BOOO!*

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» RE: Why did you have to ruin it? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Why did you have to ruin it? Posted by: pcushniesr
» Maybe Dino's growing up Posted by: Knowmad
» Stooges Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Stooges Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Stooges Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Stooge Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Stooge Posted by: Conservasaurus
» The sad religiously dogmatic Posted by: Knowmad
My 2cents
Posted by: redstarwraith on Jun 16, 2007 4:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some observations:
1)There are virtually no good sociologists of religion in america. In fact, the discipline of sociology is one of the most acdemically vacuous fields in all of acedemia. Not surprisingly, sociology of religion suffers the same ills. All american sociology does is throw the word "religiousity" around and measure "phenomenon" while mostly ignoring historical context.
2) Sam Harris's book is a study in how NOT to construct an arguement. One of the most poorly executed arguements i've ever seen in fact (and i tend towards aetheism 90% of the time). Sam Harris is merely famous for being famous. . .his book (mentioned herein) is so full of holes as to be laughable.

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» RE: My 2cents Posted by: Lauren
» RE: My 2cents Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: My 2cents Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: My 2cents Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: My 2cents Posted by: Lauren
» RE: My 2cents Posted by: hellofriends
Myth of Religions-Origin of Sun God Myth-Christ is One
Posted by: Bushguiltyof911 on Jun 16, 2007 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MUST SEE. TIES TOGETHER THE TOOLS USED BY THE ELITE POWERS TO CONTROL US!!
"Zeitgeist, The Movie"-Tools of Control: Religion, War, Mass Media Propaganda, Mass Media Entertainment, Central Banks and Purposeful Failure to Educate
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/index.html

"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
rather than truth as the authority."

Thank you for your interest in Zeitgeist.
Zeitgeist was created as a not for profit work to inspire people to start looking at the world
from a more critical perspective. The large Internet response for this film was very unexpected,
as the work itself is not finished. The Google release was simply to show immediate friends
& consultants. Over the course of the next few weeks a new version of the work will be presented.
In all humility I want to point out that 99% of the information in the current work is accurate.
The 1% that is highly debatable is going to be clarified or removed. The graphics are also going to be
improved. Furthermore, on this site there will be a source list for the entire film, detailed by segment.
It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves.

Thank you



Zeitgeist is originally a German expression that means "the spirit of the age", literally translated as "time (Zeit) spirit ( Geist)". It describes the intellectual and cultural climate of an era.

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They Are Down To One God And A World Full Of Idiots
Posted by: hole11 on Jun 16, 2007 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many gods were there at one time? Then there is something called the trinity. Then their are all the symbols and rituals, not to mention the superstitions that go with religions of our day.

But what is the incentive to believe? That there is life after death? The one godders don't believe in reincarnation (or do they), so they believe everyone goes to their proper place and live like they did in their prime here on earth. Maggots don't mind if you think you are going someplace great when you die. Just ask god if you ever find him.

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I want to attend GW's church
Posted by: White middleclass male on Jun 16, 2007 5:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not talking about the Christian church that he attends for show. I want the one where the Saudi family, jewish insurance overlords, and the fortune 500 WASPs sit around giving each other hand jobs and discussing how to best to move their pawns. I know I don't have the traditional pedigree that the other groups have but don't they some type of “Boot Straps” program for aspiring megalomaniacs like myself?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

I want to attend GW's church
Posted by: White middleclass male on Jun 16, 2007 5:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not talking about the Christian church that he attends for show. I want the one where the Saudi family, jewish insurance overlords, and the fortune 500 WASPs sit around giving each other hand jobs and discussing how to best to move their pawns. I know I don't have the traditional pedigree that the other groups have but don't they some type of “Boot Straps” program for aspiring megalomaniacs like myself?

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» Maybe Princess Diana's seat is still open. Posted by: White middleclass male
Definitions.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jun 16, 2007 5:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until "God" is defined appropriately, we cannot have any rational debate or discussion upon it.

This "god" is like a mirage, it disappears once closely looked upon.

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» RE: Definitions. Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: Definitions. Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Definitions. Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: Definitions. Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Definitions. Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Definitions. Posted by: GEM-592
» RE: the undefinable Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: the undefinable Posted by: pete ess
» RE: Definitions. Posted by: Ocean tides
Say a Prayer!
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Jun 16, 2007 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Religious right" while a movement that scares even Christians, seems to be used as an encompassing term to include all Christians.. It, like any other extremeist faith, is intollerent of others, and Catholics especially. It should not be confused with most Christians. It is a force/cult that goes beyond religion that is seperate from religious discussion.

""28 percent deny that the United States is a Christian nation"". Well, then 28% of the nation has their head stuck in the sand because about 80% are Christian..America is a Christian nation, no doubt.

Most dramatically, a whopping 49 percent believe that Christian conservatives have gone too far "in trying to impose their religious values on the country..........Where the Atheist run into trouble is that there has been an assault on the Christian faith in this country for a number of years now.. Law suits against Christmas Trees in public places, Major chain stores refusing to acknowledge Christmas or haveing a policy of not wishing Merry Christmas etc.. The majority of this country's faith is under assault by a vocal minority.. Most Christian are offended by the religious minority trying to erase the countries expression of their beliefs.. Try that in a muslim country or Israel for example.

One hardly hears of Christians , if at all, bringing law suits against minority faiths expressing their religious beliefs..

"After all, unbelievers are concentrated at the higher end of the educational scale -- ..that 31 percent of those with postgraduate education do not avow belief in God ""..... Well, most in the highly educated medical profession in the US discount Eastern Medical practices as VooDoo medicine, and we know how wrong that is.. So for the highly educated atheist to discount something they cannot see, feel or touch only emphasises the lack of REAL education in their studies! Being led down a path by text books does not equate to "education" in many cases - it's just book knowledge.

In recent polls, far more respondents have declared themselves willing to vote for a woman or African-American for President than for an atheist -- atheists are more unpopular than gays. Wonder why that is!!!.. keep assulting, and degrading the majority of the country and then hope you can run for office.. maybe a "prayer" would help!

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» dumb and dumber Posted by: EasterBunny
» Caucasian nation Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Caucasian nation Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: dumb and dumber Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Just semantics Posted by: factbased
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: Doubtom
» Math Posted by: GK
» RE: Math Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Christmas- Posted by: WitchyNy
» The truth hurts! Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: Math Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: pete ess
» RE: Say a Prayer! Posted by: bob t
Science and religion?
Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Jun 16, 2007 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until someone starts talking about mushrooms, peyote, and other hallucinogenics, there can be no intelligent discussion of science and religion. Anyone who has any experience with these knows what I'm talking about. Most important to derive from the experience is that it's as individual and sovereign as it is collective and communal.

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» RE: Science and religion? Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Science and religion? Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Science and religion and pot heads? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Science and religion? Posted by: Doubtom
There may not be any atheists in foxholes,
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Jun 16, 2007 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but there are a lot of a**holes in religion.

Marginalized, ignored and insulted? Beleagured? I don't feel that way, but perhaps it's because I'm not too concerned about what other people think about my beliefs (or lack thereof). I'm comfortable enough in them not to have to force them on anyone in an attempt to prove their validity. The deeply devout must be deeply insecure, since they don't seem comfortable unless everyone feels precisely as they do. Do they fear that doubt is contagious?

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» I can't disagree, but Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
NOT just atheists and agnostics fed up
Posted by: wawa on Jun 16, 2007 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PROGRESSIVE Christians are fed up too with the hypocricy of neo-con, neo-Christians such as John Hagee and politicians such as Bush who claim their favorite philosopher is Christ, then once elected they totally IGNORE the philosophy!



Did you know that 100 years BEFORE JC walked the earth, Rabbi Hillel, understood that the Hebrew understanding of Hokema; Holy Wisdom;

THE FEMININE DIVINITY,

Was the same as the Greek understanding of The Logos: The Word.


It was Saints Paul and John who first understood The Word was good and The Word was The Logos, The Word is The Christ.

It was John Lennon on Rubber Soul who told: "The Word is just The Way and The Word is Love"

ANYONE with an open mind and heart and a little imagination could comprehend that before Christ walked the earth a man,

He was already a She: Hokema, Holy Wisdom;

THE FEMININE DIVINITY!



Did you know that the canonical sources:
Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, and Luke 12:10

Are simpatico with gnostic Thomas saying 44:

'Jesus said: "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [God within] will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."

What JC said four times, is it doesn't matter what any think of him, or even God the Father, but do NOT fail to see, that God is already within every man, woman and child.




Do you know about the Stages of The Soul?

Stages three's are seekers, doubters, skeptics, atheists, agnostics and frequently adults who grew up disenchanted with institutionalized religion. Their inherent intellectual curiosity leads them to seek their own way towards the Mystery of the Divine through philosophy and the study of multiple faith paths choosing and discarding according to their "inner light." Stage three souls often become activists for social justice and reform...-excerpted from "Mystics in the Marketplace" retitled "Fundamentalism is Holding up Evolution" available under "Early Editorials" on WAWA Banner





e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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Atheism is a belief system, too.
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 16, 2007 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since the existence of God can’t be disproven, atheists must convince themselves as a matter of faith there is no God. By doing so, they willfully deny that human spiritually exists, which many people experience daily.

Right now, as I compose this comment, I am communicating with a spiritual aspect of myself. Whether it be a “soul” or simply another level of consciousness, I am most certainly hearing an inner voice helping me to write these words.

The same thing happens to me during other creative endeavors. For example, I’ve written four novels. The drafting of each manuscript was guided by an omnipotent narrator in my head that quite often generated scenarios, action and dialogue that completely surprised me. For the lack of a better term, I call that creative entity my “personal God.”

From reading about other writers and artists, my experience is not unique, which leads me to believe atheists are not, as a rule, creative people. Just the opposite, as shown by the hate-filled comments on this thread, atheists seem to enjoy thoughts of destruction, not inspirational ones.

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» RE: Atheism is a belief system, too. Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Only in bad dictionaries. Posted by: justAnEgg
» Such Rubbish You Speak Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: Such Rubbish You Speak Posted by: hellofriends
» i'm a writer and an atheist Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Atheism is a belief system, too. Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Atheism is a belief system, too. Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Atheism is a belief system, too. Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» proving non-existence Posted by: freedom
» RE: proving non-existence Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Atheism is a belief system, too. Posted by: abstractedaway
» RE: Why does a fantasy... ?? Posted by: GEM-592
» What about my non-alcoholism? Posted by: themotie
Fundamentalists
Posted by: Li'l Wizard on Jun 16, 2007 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article was an interesting insight, especially to this resident of China. Apart from the question of the rights of a disenfranchised minority (poor Atheists!), the more important issue is how the rapid growth of the fundamentalists around the globe is raising the spectre of the next war being not between nations but between religions. Is Iraq the harbinger of what is to come? Islam vs Christianity armed by industry and powered by zealotry! A terrifying image. Of course, we could add a new fundamentalist group. Now with which side would the fanatical Atheist align? Oh, silly me. Of course the Atheists have no belief! So why are they an "ist"?

Ah, it is all an idle whimsy, this debate that is. By the time we realize that the impact of Global Warming is upon us, and irreversable, it will make debates about God or Gods irrelevant. And how did we "progress" to this point? Perhaps we can describe it as an unholy alliance between the Christian philosophy of Man having dominion over the earth etc and the Atheistic perspective of the advancement of science and associated technology at any price? And my position? Hey, the Goddess tells me what to do, and any man knows he better obey the woman if he knows what is good for him! ;-) Thank you, Lao Tse!

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» RE: Fundamentalists Posted by: jwc
» RE: Fundamentalists Posted by: dm.
» RE: Fundamentalists Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Fundamentalists Posted by: polyquat50
To read these posts, atheists are....
Posted by: rbohan on Jun 16, 2007 6:18 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
smarter, more insightful, tidier, better looking, kinder, better read....smarter than are we ignorant, retarded, superstitious, backward, religious types.

And the atheists wonder why nobody likes them.....sheesh, what a bunch of maroons.

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» Bugs, we hardly knew ya! Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Read and remember: Posted by: dangerouslysane
What are the concrete consequences of being an atheist?
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Jun 16, 2007 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with Bertrand Russell that "religion belongs to the infancy of human reason." However, many who consider themeselves atheists have dogmas that are, from a practical point of view, just has harmful, in my opinion, as traditional religion (perhaps more so). Marxism is one example and "free-market capitalism" is another. Unless you can define in concrete terms what distinguishes atheisism (implying that you first define clearly what "religion" means in this sense), I'm not sure what the point of discusion is. As far as I'm concerned, the secular dogma of power and profit (i.e., of "market forces", to use Regan's language) does infinitely more harm (today) than any dogma of Christianity that is somehow imposed on those "outside the church" (In fact, many laws which apear to have a moral basis actually serve political purpose; this is the case with drug laws, e.g.* Morality is just a surrogate, and I would go so far as to argue that the main funtion of institutional religion has always been to provide a platform for political power--i.e., power to controll other people; the practical effect is the same whether we're talking about Catholicism or Dialetical Materialism.).

I would suggest anarchism as an alternative. The question is not whether a religious dogma or what dogma; it is of letting people do as they see fit, of giving us the responsability to take care of things for ourselves. Any formal political institution will have some form of morality, invariably superstitious (anarchists are much more persecuted than atheists), that is an integral component. This is especially true as power becomes more concentrated and disconected from the population; i.e., as we become more totalitarian. Whether the state calls itself Christian or atheist (as the Soviet Union), it makes no practical difference.

*"West [Lewis 'Jolly' West, a UCLA psychiatrist ca. the late 1960s] put his finger unerringly on the usefulness of drugs for social control. 'The role of drugs in the exercise of political control is also coming under increasing discussion,' he wrote in Hallucinations: Behavior, Experience and Theory, a book he edited in 1975. 'Control can be through prohibition or supply. The total or even partial prohibition of drugs gives the government considerable leverage for other types of control. An example would be the selective application of drug laws… against selected components of the population such as members of certain minority groups or political organizations.'” [152: Cockburn, Alexander and Jeffery St. Clair, “The history of Black Paranoia”, End Times, 2007.]

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» RE: better analysis needed Posted by: Ripcord
BELIEF AND PRACTICE
Posted by: shd1230 on Jun 16, 2007 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While many Americans give lip-service to Christianity, and go to church regularly, few actually live the faith. Love thy neighbor as thyself? Sell all thou hast and give to the poor? Arise, take up the cross, and follow me? By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, that ye have love one for another? Take no thought for tomorrow, saying what shall we eat, wherewith shall we be clothes?

Met any real Christians lately?

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» RE: BELIEF AND PRACTICE Posted by: xenacat
Ewigweiblich
Posted by: theoblivionofnow on Jun 16, 2007 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i felt this relative to the context of the comment, a quote by Kundera:

Woman is the future of man. That means that the world which was once formed in man’s image will now be transformed to the image of woman. The more technical and mechanical, cold and metallic it becomes, the more it will need the kind of warmth that only the woman can give it. If we want to save the world, we must adapt to the woman, let ourselves be led by the woman, let ourselves be penetrated by the Ewigweiblich, the eternally feminine!

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» RE: wigweiblich Posted by: Lauren
» RE: wigweiblich Posted by: algodees
oops
Posted by: theoblivionofnow on Jun 16, 2007 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
posted in the wrong spot. this is not a response to the article.

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Visit to a small 'Antithesis of Theocracy'...Part l
Posted by: ekipnrut on Jun 16, 2007 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Study: China's Army Harvesting Body Parts From Live Prisoners, Particularly Falun Gong Members
Thursday, February 01, 2007
China's military is harvesting organs from unwilling live prison inmates, mostly Falun Gong practitioners, for transplants on a large scale — including to foreign recipients — according to a study.
The report's authors — Canada's former secretary of state for the Asia Pacific region David Kilgour and human rights lawyer David Matas — implicated dozens of hospitals and jails throughout China in July, after a two-month investigation.
Chinese officials denied those allegations.
(According to the report, one transplant doctor volunteered to a caller that he had 10 "beating hearts" available at his hospital. If western democracies do nothing, if they continue allow their citizens to buy Chinese organs from unwilling donors, the developing world threatens to devolve one big organ bazaar -- with human life itself as a hot commodity available to the highest bidders.)

[NOTE:Google Advanced Search 'david kilgour'as exact phrase and 'body','parts' as two words.. LIMIT the file type to pdf. format, it comes up as : REPORT INTO ALLEGATIONS OF ORGAN HARVESTING OF FALUN GONG ...]
=============
FURTHERMORE!!!!!!!!!....[Go to NPR site and search 'China' and 'abortions' for the following and a May 22 2007 article]
Cases of Forced Abortions Surface in China Liang Yage
Louisa Lim, NPR
Pastor Liang Yage's wife was forced to abort their baby seven months into her pregnancy. The couple already have one child, a 12-year-old boy. They were told that having another child would contravene China's one-child policy.
“The doctor said it was a boy. My friends who were beside me said the baby's body was completely black. I felt desolate, so I didn't look up to see the baby.”
Wei Linrong, who was forced to have an abortion because it would have been her second child
A slogan on a village building outside Baise in southwest China, reads, "Keep the birth rate low to enhance the quality of the population."
Morning Edition, April 23, 2007 · During the past week, dozens of women in southwest China have been forced to have abortions even as late as nine months into the pregnancy, according to evidence uncovered by NPR.
China's strict family planning laws permit urban married couples to have only one child each, but in some of the recent cases — in Guangxi Province — women say they were forced to abort what would have been their first child because they were unmarried. The forced abortions are all the more shocking because family planning laws have generally been relaxed in China, with many families having two children.
Liang Yage and his wife Wei Linrong had one child and believed that — like many other couples — they could pay a fine and keep their second baby. Wei was 7 months pregnant when 10 family planning officials visited her at home on April 16.
Liang describes how they told her that she would have to have an abortion, "You don't have any more room for maneuver," he says they told her. "If you don't go [to the hospital], we'll carry you." The couple was then driven to Youjiang district maternity hospital in Baise city.
"I was scared," Wei told NPR. "The hospital was full of women who'd been brought in forcibly. There wasn't a single spare bed. The family planning people said forced abortions and forced sterilizations were both being carried out. We saw women being pulled in one by one."
The couple was given a consent agreement to sign. When Liang refused, family planning officials signed it for him. He and his wife are devout Christians — he is a pastor — and they don't agree with abortion.

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» Are you stupid? Posted by: ateo
It's about time
Posted by: jillbooks on Jun 16, 2007 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The religious right has become a frightening force during the Bush administration--threatening the freedom to think and reason and learn from history or science, reducing our politicians to panderers to "faith," whatever that is. Most frightening are the end-of-the-worlders, the translationists, who gleefully interpret world events as the end times: "bring it on!" Yet they deny global warming, a real problem for all of us. What reality do they live in? Whatever happened to the Enlightenment?

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Zeitgeist, indeed
Posted by: dm. on Jun 16, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Spirit of the Times...oh, oh, we'll have to delete that first word. How about "Feelings of the Times" (nothing more than feelings...). Well heck, it was the German theologians after WWII who came up with the God is Dead movement, so why not the God Never Was movement now as we recreate all around us in our own image. The Virtues of Materialism, a new flavour of Ayn Randism. I did like her when I was sixteen. Then later I started having a life, hard times, good times, children, changes, and I became religious again, though I am also intelligent and such a critical thinker I don't fit in with my own original faith group. I would like to hear what the mothers of these gentlemen feel about their sons beliefs.

As a self-confessed religious nut who loves all religions, yes, religious people have created hell on earth for so many. But what has been done time and again in the name of God or religion is easy to see behind as mere cover for vested self-interest, so stop blaming all people for whom religion is a valid conduit for living in this difficult world. War and domination of all types are always ultimately about control of resources, material things, goods, land, or groups of people. War and domination are always about dehumanization for the sake of manipulating things, resources and beings only for self-gain. Has anyone of these writers ever questioned how much worse the world might be if not for religion?

The Italian educator Maria Montessori believed that the child is an inherently religious being. Children love dressing up, acting, imagining, memory games, engaging in repetitive, ritualized movements, maybe even worshipping. They also love to question, re-imagine, invent, destroy, and eventually criticize, thank God (oops). They come from total immersion in the sensory world, yet seem comfortable with the unseen. What's the problem these writers have with the unseen? Have they ever seen the wind, or only its presumably measurable effects on the material world? I personally am an Anti-Windarian, because I've never yet seen this stupid thing people call wind!

Religion is the spice of a culture, and as some of us students of religion say, one of the languages of "God". A world without religion...OK, go ahead. That's just what the Rosicrucian/Masonic/non-Christian founding fathers of American did, and look where it's gotten us...the non-Christian, elitist basis of those founding fathers being one thing the Religious Right in the U.S. does not get. What's so great about materialism and secularized cultures like the real culture in the U.S. of the inalienable right to pursue happiness, seemingly at any cost?

Religion and culture have been nearly inextricably intertwined throughout history. Why do these writers not go after human culture as the real culprit which warps Golden Rule attempts of all religions to control innate human greed? Now as we stand at the lintels of globalized, secularized culture, we need new visions of how to be ethical, creative, loving beings in these viciously vacuous, fissionably changing times. From my years of hanging out with a primarily aetheist, materialist and truly wonderful alternative community, I'm also glad to have seen that religious folks like me are not the only greedy, self-deluding hypocrites on the planet. From what I've seen, pagan, wiccan and aetheists can do all that just as well as I!

We therefore get down to the real heart of the matter, the human heart, and what we really care about. What is worth living, fighting, and dying for - and is anything worth killing for?

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» A comment Posted by: ekipnrut
The 'cannot prove a negative' argument
Posted by: g on Jun 16, 2007 7:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You often hear the argument that after all atheism is a faith too, since you cannot disprove the existence of God. This is because "you cannot prove a negative." If you cannot disprove it, then you believe that God does not exist... out of faith. Ha ha there goes the rationality of atheism. Nyah nyah, gotcha.
Try this, then: since you can't disprove Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy (you cannot prove a negative...), then believing that Santa Claus does not exist is a matter of faith. Woopsie. We don't want that, do we? We want to say that we don't believe Santa exists because there is strong *evidence* against Santa's existence.
"Proof" and "evidence" are different concepts, folks. There is, as of today, no valid proof of the existence of God. There may be evidence for and against it. As others have pointed out, such evidence cannot be evaluated until we sit down and define "God." I and many others believe, given a common understanding of God, that there is more evidence against its existence than in favor of it.
Believing something out of *evidence* is not the same as believing something out of *faith*, which is believing regardless of evidence.

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» RE: Proof and Evidence, and an example. Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Proof and Evidence, and an example. Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Proof and Evidence, and an example. Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Proof and Evidence, and an example. Posted by: parmenicleitus
» Really I'm Agnostic, but ... Posted by: GEM-592
I am an atheist and I support this message
Posted by: scmp on Jun 16, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have nothing against religion. It springs from ignorance and I can tolerate it. Fundamentalism, christian or of any nature, is just a mental disorder. This I cannot tolerate when it tries to impose a social order aligned with its dogma. I used to go mad when all kind of preaching pricks where trying to convince me that I will go to their hell for not believing in their gods. But now I find it amusing - if I go to a zoo and a monkey makes faces at me I am amused and don't try to educate the monkey. I now have the same attitude towards the religious folks.

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Liberty for all
Posted by: barcher on Jun 16, 2007 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for speaking out! So glad your book has been well received EXCELLENT!

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como55
Posted by: como55 on Jun 16, 2007 7:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Re: The atheist's holiday?

Psalms 14.1. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."

...must be April 1!

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» Woooo, Scary! Posted by: Aimleft
"Maroons" is what Bugs Bunny and other cartoon characters used...
Posted by: clvngodess on Jun 16, 2007 7:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... as an insult for other cartoon characters. But you'd have to have to have seen these cartoons to get it.

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» RE: "Maroons"... Posted by: Lauren
» RE: "Maroons"... Posted by: nancylou
Some questions (and frustration)
Posted by: Shade on Jun 16, 2007 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please bear with this post. I’m not crazy, ordinarily, but I’m frustrated to the extreme right now. These questions are sincere, not meant as sarcasm or attack. That said:

Li’l Wizard wonders “why are they an “ist?” It’s a valid question. Why ARE we atheists considered an “ist”? There is nothing that binds atheists together—no holy book, no churches, no ruling class (priesthood, etc.), no weekly meetings. There is nothing to hold us together as a group—only one shared opinion that we do not believe in God. THERE IS NO ATHIEST AGENDA.

Others argue that atheists are arrogant, immoral, etc. For example, rbohan writes, “smarter, more insightful, tidier, better looking, kinder, better read....smarter than are we ignorant, retarded, superstitious, backward, religious types.
And the atheists wonder why nobody likes them.....sheesh, what a bunch of maroons.”

And HughScott, whom I admire greatly, even if I don’t always agree with him, refers to this threads “hate-filled posts.”

Have I entered the Twilight Zone? Where are these posts? I missed them somehow…in fact, before I read Hugh’s post, I commented to my husband about how rational and polite this thread was! Even Conservasaurus is presenting rational arguments—I really don’t see much hate, arrogance, etc. on this thread. I don’t get it!

There’s plenty of hate and fear toward atheists in the nation, though. According to polls, most Americans would refuse to vote for an atheist. Let me get this straight—you would actually PREFER George W. to an atheist?!? WHY? Why are we so terrifying? THERE ISN’T EVEN A “WE”! Athiests represent only the tiniest minority, and we have no agenda. I repeat, there is no atheist agenda! We have no agenda, that is, beyond wanting to live our lives on our own terms. I want to be free to make decisions for myself and my family. That’s it. That’s all I want. Why is that so threatening?

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» RE: Some questions (and frustration) Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Some questions (and frustration) Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Some questions (and frustration) Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Some questions (and frustration) Posted by: dangerouslysane
RE:"The Fool Hath Said In His Heart..."
Posted by: ZPaul on Jun 16, 2007 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I knew that verse was coming.
But let people believe what they want to believe.
Church and State should be separate. When the State can give reasonable guarantees that learning about the world´s religions in public school will not involve dogmatism, indoctrination and proselytism in any way, shape, or form, I will go along with it. Why should those things be hidden from them? This is an important point to me, because the person who teaches religion may feel it is his or her "duty" to herd their little "flock", albeit subtly, to the "green pastures" of the "true way" -- that is, their particular interpretation of "the truth".
Personally, I think we should encourage young people to think for themselves more. Now that would be revolutionary.

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Atheists are Smart but Eggheads-Where is their Heart?
Posted by: drricklippin on Jun 16, 2007 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I consider myself a spiritual humanist. The basis for my belief in God is my awe at the abundant, unfathamable beauty of the universe.

My experience with atheists, starting with my exposure to Ayn Rand, is that they are the most intelligent people I have met.

But they are often cynical and lacking in a sense of humor or a sense of "childlike" wonder?


They have great mind rational intelliengence but they do not have heart wisdom.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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» and your butt can type! Posted by: EasterBunny
Who Wants to Predict...
Posted by: pcushniesr on Jun 16, 2007 8:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... how many posts this article will generate? I predict it will be in the 400s.

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» RE: Who Wants to Predict... Posted by: Doubtom
Religious Inclusiveness?
Posted by: EKSwitaj on Jun 16, 2007 8:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a President flanked by Jewish, Muslim and Christian representatives, a model of religious inclusiveness, without anyone standing alongside them representing the tens of millions of nonreligious Americans.

Having representatives of the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian faiths is hardly a model of religious inclusiveness. These are all the sons of Abraham and have some myths in common. What about the Neopagans? The Buddhists? The Shintoists? The Sikhs? The Hare Krishnas?

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» RE: eligious Inclusiveness? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: eligious Inclusiveness? Posted by: Lauren
If atheism just had something new and useful to say!
Posted by: jhbeck23 on Jun 16, 2007 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a lot of potential sympathy for atheism because, like the pastor's son Friedrich Nietzsche, I feel that clinging to what we no longer experience and going through the motions of what we don't really believe are destructive of our real humanity.

I also have real sympathy for those who have been abused by religious people often including close family. I know something about what you're talking about.

But I regret that I haven't found atheism opening any new doors, enlarging any paradigms. Often it seems like a counter-cult, another (unprovable) belief system that wants to impose on others. Often is seems like a mopping up operation before the redesign of the human being on robotic principles begins in public view. Often, often, it wills itself to see no difference between humans and (other) animals, which is as perverse as anything I know of in religion.

Above all I haven't yet found the atheist who can speak of human evolution from a higher perspective than survival of the fittest; who sees the changes in consciousness which are dramatic evidence of our being in transition on a level that can't be considered "natural"; who appreciates that mathematics, for instance, has no physical existence, and wonders about that; who acknowledges that consciousness or even color cannot be explained in terms of the brain alone. An atheist, in other words, who is not bought into the most sclerotic and fundamentalist dogmas of materialistic science.

Can anyone point out such an atheist to me?

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» Old and Useful Is Bad? Posted by: leighsure
» Here's the fuss! Posted by: leighsure
» Well, I'm such an Atheist... Posted by: defiant
» "...face the vastness alone." Posted by: Sojourner
Atheism, the REAL pro-choice!
Posted by: ZenQuixote on Jun 16, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"You may choose a ready guide, In some celestial voice...
If you choose not to decide, You still have made a chioce...
You can choose from phantom fears, And kindness that can kill...
I will choose the path thats clear, I will chose freewill."

Neil Peart{Rush}, 1978

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Progressive Faith...
Posted by: holt9106 on Jun 16, 2007 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've read Richard Dawkin's new book along with Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation. While I agree with the logic of both, I did have trouble with Harris' criticism of progressive faith communities. He argues that religious progressives give "cover" to extremists as we are somehow a legitimizing force for their theology. As a gay member of the progressive United Church of Christ I think Harris' criticism is undeserved. Religious progressives do in fact take on extremism, although perhaps not as forcefully as some would like. All of us, atheists and progressive believers alike, would like to see an end to the pervasive influence of religious fundamentalism -- we just have different ways of getting it done (telling them they're ignorant is probably not very effective).

Additionally, although it is quite true that fundamentalism is anti-science and anti-intellectual I don't believe the same can be said for progressive faith communities. The UCC, for example, founded Harvard, Yale, Darmouth, and a number of other universities. Progressive people of faith were essential in the abolitionist movement, women's suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and now marriage equality. Notice how of many of those protesting in Massachusetts this week for marriage equality were there as members of a faith community (Quakers, Unitarians, UCC, Episcopal, etc., etc.).

Finally, although theism may be rudimentary among fundamentalists, progressive faith communities typically are more advanced in their theology. Doubt and skepticism are not only welcome but expected. What I love about my church is that we work together for justice and peace issues in our community (gay pride marches, homeless shelters, jail ministries, battered women's shelters, sanctuary for undocumented people) and we have a support-system I can depend upon. When my partner's mother died last month our minister came to our home and spent the entire day with us. She prayed with us, gave us support, and was a wonderful help when we needed her.

So please direct your criticism to where it belongs and don't assume that progressive people of faith share much of anything with fundamentalists. We are allies in a progressive alliance and should not be rejected. We are pro-science (in fact there is a Nobel laureate in Physics in my UCC congregation), pro-doubt, pro-skepticism, and pro-inquiry.

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» RE: Progressive Faith... Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Progressive Faith... Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Progressive Faith... Posted by: holt9106
» RE: Progressive Faith... Posted by: holt9106
» RE: Progressive Faith... Posted by: mazel
» RE: Progressive Faith... Posted by: holt9106
Excellent post!
Posted by: mobile68 on Jun 16, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well said in less words.

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Rabid belief vs. Rabid disbelief
Posted by: moflard on Jun 16, 2007 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me that both sides have alot in common - the religous loons would burn people at the stake for believing the wrong thing and so would the atheists! At least that's how many of the more rabid atheists posting appear - more than a little deranged. All they seem to want is to be able to look down on people for being "stupid" or "gullible" or "weak", just as the religious nuts do for thoise who pray to the wrong deity.

Leave religion to deal with the metaphysics for those who want it, and science to deal with the real physics. Where's the problem there? They're not mutually exclusive as many scientists have also been religious - hell some of them have been priests! Einstein, Newton, Gallileo, Peacocke (templeton prize winner and anglican priest), George Coyne (Jesuit priest and director of the Vatican Observatory).

Just goes to show - when it comes to being unpleasant to each other, humans will hook onto any excuse, any belief, any disbelief, just so they can feel that warm icky feeling that only comes from looking down your nose at someone else.

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» Another tactic Posted by: moflard
Good stuff!
Posted by: jmooney on Jun 16, 2007 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love this quote in the article: ". . . they may be forgiven for not being calmer, more expert or more measured. Doing battle with what they see as the most pervasive and bothersome phenomenon in American life during the past generation, Harris, Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens deserve praise for their courage and tenacity in shattering its spell. "

I've read a lot of negative pieces on Alternet and other outlets where so-called progressives have hammered away at the "New Atheists." And, yes, I agree that the "New Atheists", embodied by Harris, Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens, have sometimes engaged in rather scathing phraseology. I think one could say they were fighting the fire of religious fundamentalists with their own fire of freethought skepticism. That's understandable, but maybe in our harsh society a better way to fight fire is by deploying water.

It is an interesting topic as to whether the only way they (and I; I am a Unitarian Universalist humanist who is fine with the atheist tag as well) can be heard is by yelling as loud as those on the other side. So, maybe it takes a bit of that to get the point across, but we don't need to be hateful. There is a way to generate conversation about these things without resorting to harsh, rebuking language. And as the article states, there are religious folks who still believe in church/state separation, who don't believe all they read in their texts is literal, and we "New Atheists" can and should cooperate with them on these mutual issues.

I'm grateful to see this piece on Alternet. It is a fair and balanced (pretty "Foxy" eh?) look at the Big Four of "New Atheism."

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GROWING ATHEISM IS NO SURPRISE TO ME: AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 16, 2007 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SO SHALL IT BE IN THE LAST DAYS. YOU FOLKS ARE SIMPLY FULLFILLING PROPHECY GIVEN MANY YEARS AGO.

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FOLKS: THERE IS A PERSONAL GOD WHO WILL COME AND VISIT YOU AS I SAID
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 16, 2007 10:50 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ON PAST THREADS AND ACTUALLY DESCRIBED AN EXPERIMENT THAT WOULD PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS 100%. AFTER MUCH RATIONALIZATION AND HEMMING AND HAWING, NO ONE HAD THE INTELLECTAUL HONESTY TO TRY THE EXPERIMENT. SOME EVEN SAID THAT IF GOD SHOULD PERSONALLY VISIT THEM THEY WOULD STILL THINK THAT THEIR MIND WAS PLAYING TRICKS ON THEM. SO, BOTTOM LINE IS THAT YOU DON'T WISH TO KNOW... SIMPLE AS THAT.

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Very well done, AlterNet - with a few comments
Posted by: CrystalD on Jun 16, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excellent article on philosophy and atheism, AlterNet - much, much more well-written and well-balanced than other articles on atheism that have been printed here (and elsewhere). I can't help but notice it brought out a better class of commentors as well.

One little thing I have noticed about the public face of atheism - lately it's a sea of white, well-off, male faces. (Madalyn O'Hair doesn't count, is dead, and in any event probably did more to give atheism a BAD name than just about anyone.) Where are the women, the non-whites, and the working class? Perhaps you can invite Amanda Marcotte - female, feminist, outspoken atheist - to publish an article here on AlterNet.

It's time for atheism (and paganism, Wicca and other non-mainstream religious positions) to reach out to a broader audience. I for one don't appreciate the feeling of being hectored by a bunch of snotty white guys who think they're all that, and would like to see a broader definition of secularism.

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» Alternet Didn't Do Anything Posted by: hellofriends
» Points well taken.... Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: Alternet Didn't Do Anything Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Alternet Didn't Do Anything Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Alternet Didn't Do Anything Posted by: hellofriends
» point is some is not all Posted by: EasterBunny
Wishfull thinking...
Posted by: cmaukonen on Jun 16, 2007 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is wishful thinking and delusional hyperbole for people who's life basically sucks and are scared to death of dying.

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» RE: Wishfull thinking... Posted by: Doubtom
FOR FREE, QUALITY INDEPENDENT NEWS...
Posted by: chamela on Jun 16, 2007 11:23 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FOR FREE, QUALITY INDEPENDENT NEWS THAT DOES NOT IGNORE GLOBALIZATION AND IS NOT SUBJECT TO CFR INFILTRATION, VISIT http://www.sandersresearch.com

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End of the Age of Pisces?
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jun 16, 2007 11:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to dabble in metaphysics and other esoteric 'areas' of knowledge. Perhaps it can come under the umbrella of 'New Age' thinking.

Regardless, there is an interesting concept floating around out there that we undergo these 2000 year social cycles. The Age of Pisces is the current one, which supposedly corresponds to the inception of the Jesus myth. The next age is the Age of Aquarius. The singing group The 5th Dimension had a catchy song by the same title.

One of the tenets of the dawning of the Age of Aquarius is finally dropping the illusion of the mythology of a heaven and a hell, the mythology of a sky god and earth demons, etc. This so-called new age would finally usher in a technological age, filled with what could only be called magic. Not THAT kind of magic, but rather the magic that seems to occur with electronics.

Perhaps the fact that prominent atheists who are incredibly talented and intelligent are able to publish wonderful tomes that totally and completely discredit the lies of religious believers is another sign that the Age of Aquarius is beginning to dawn.

At least I hope that's so.

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» RE: creative activities Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: nd of the Age of Pisces? Posted by: dangerouslysane
radical secularism
Posted by: vasumurti on Jun 16, 2007 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a member of a minority religion, I believe in a secular society. I'm not an atheist. I'm a practicing Hindu.

I'm a pro-life Democrat. I'm pro-life, but also believe in a complete separation of church and state. I gave $1,008 to Americans United for Separation of Church and State, while asking Rev. Barry Lynn (Executive Director) to keep the organization neutral on this divisive issue, rather than take a pro-choice stance.

I have no problem with atheism. Thomas Jefferson, the architect of American democracy, said, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are only injurious to others, but it does no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pockets nor breaks my legs."

Under Jeffersonian democracy, monotheism, polytheism, agnosticism, atheism and even victimless crimes are all tolerated. This conception of democracy appears to me to be closer to the Vedic conception of government, because under Vedic civilization there was tolerance of different philosophical schools of thought, different yoga systems, demigod worship, ancestor worship ("pitas" or forefathers in Sanskrit), pantheism (advaita vedanta), and even atheists like Charvaka. The American Left is open to a tolerant multicultural, multireligious, multiracial and possibly even a multilingual society.

Jefferson wrote, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are only injurious to others." Robert Heinlein in "The Notebook of Lazarus Long", also wrote that sin lies only in harming others--all other "sins" are concocted. In Vedic civilization, victimless crimes such as intoxication (rice wine was offered to goddess Kali) and even prostitution (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.17-19) were legal and regulated.

I agree religion has no place in the secular arena and therefore oppose prayer in the public schools, but must simultaneously oppose the teaching of modern myths such as the theory of evolution in the public schools as well.

According to Vedic civilization, people fall into four different classes: educators, military, mercantile, and laborers. Only a certain class of people will have military inclinations, and a military draft forces people from the working classes to take up arms against their will.

Writer and activist Jean Blackwood, in the July 1993 issue of "Harmony: Voices for a Just Future", a peace and justice publication on the religious Left, notes:

"Many of the young people who make up the animal rights and environmental movement grew up with pro-abortion rhetoric in their ears. They can make the mental shift from banning CFCs, outlawing whaling, and abolishing clearcuts to 'a woman's right to choose' with such alacrity that one might suspect no self-contradiction was involved."

For many young people today, abortion is just another choice; just another form of birth control. Will they be more inclined to listen to a secular moral philosophy that doesn't dictate their sexual behavior or intrude upon their private life, or a set of unprovable religious beliefs that does?

There are non-traditional pro-life groups that make up "The Left Side of the March" on the March on Washington, every January 22nd, in D.C.: Vegans for Life, Democrats for Life, Feminists for Life, the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians (PLAGAL), etc. I'm not sure if Atheists for Life is included, but Rachel MacNair, a Quaker pacifist, vegan, psychology professor, and past president of Feminists For Life, once pointed out that there are pro-life atheists who argue that since there is no afterlife, life is especially precious.

Had Dennis Kucinich remained pro-life, I would have voted for him. Atheists and agnostics have no cause for concern: we really live in a secular society; one in which people merely pay lip service to religious ideals.

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» RE: radical secularism Posted by: dm.
» what a surprise, not Posted by: goatini
» RE: radical secularism Posted by: abstractedaway
Humans need something to believe in!
Posted by: WizardGad on Jun 16, 2007 12:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not a believer in any form of man made religion, I can't as of yet figure out why so many must have some kind of God thing to hold on to. I do believe that the belief structure does more harm to the human race than good.

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» RE: Humans need something to believe in! Posted by: dangerouslysane
Bumper Sticker For The Decade for ALL Zealots
Posted by: drricklippin on Jun 16, 2007 12:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bumper Sticker for the Decade- "Practice Being Kind Instead of Being Right"

Including the zealots from ALL religions including the "religion" of Atheism

:)

Rick Lippin

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Same old crap... different pile
Posted by: rwmk12 on Jun 16, 2007 1:00 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The new atheists aren't new, and contrary to popular opinion atheism has been around for thousands of years. I find that atheists tend to be scientific middlemen, not the brightest of the community, but rather those who think because they read popular mechanics that they are qualified to speak about religion. The truth is that the greatest scientific and philosophical minds have all had some kind of mystic inclination. Ironically, science itself originates from religion, just not popular religion, rather esotericism, which is an entirely different world all together. The entire idea of the renaissance and the enlightenment was built upon the principles of the rebirth of pagan learning, which extends beyond the typical middle class education provided by universities and delves beyond a rudimentary knowledge of plato and aristotle etc... One of these ideas is that God is Mind, and the holiest thing on earth is not a book, or a man wearing a white suit, or whatever, but rather the power of the human intellect. The idea is old, and early science is indebted from bacon to newton. The problem with the new atheists is that they really don't know squat about anything historically or culturally, because most only have a highschool level education in the arts, which leads them to assume that this is all there is, just like most fundamentalist christians. The truth is that there is more to the story than the general public knows.

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» RMWK 12: ANOTHER DEAD WRONG THEIST Posted by: EasterBunny
truly we forget what McLuhan suggested
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Jun 16, 2007 2:22 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Medium is the Message"
Big discoveries are protected by public incredulity
~M.McLuhan

deconstructively speaking,... what more can we Learn about who we are as Individuals from the archetypes created in North American Media?

so much so, that as a bridge between cultures... MainStream Media gradually replaces & obliterating our Classic Archetypes... a subtle cultural arc... for better or worse... punctuated by marketing messages & ideological biases...

...for the Public at Large?
or ....only consumers of mainstream media?

Its YOUR Life, live it as you Choose.
...don't just buy an easy solution...
a LifeStyle... is a marketed LIFE, values, ethics & philosophy: right down to the costumes.

create your own.
when we stop listening & fighting what gives us Fear
then we can listen to "That Still, Quiet Voice".
that is Ourself.

Spread Love...
... but wear the Glove!


BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"

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Dover decision: A good read indeed
Posted by: runningclouds on Jun 16, 2007 4:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the article: "An immediate goal should be a call for the publication and widest possible distribution of the Dover decision."
The author did not include the link so maybe he is not aware that the Dover decision is already available to anybody with internet access:

The proper original formatting in PDF:
http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf

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ABOUT TIME....
Posted by: Urmutt on Jun 16, 2007 4:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FACT: Religion is a concept harking back to the earliest days of Humankind, a primitive means for humans to deal with their FEAR of the forces of the universe that they were far too ignorant to deal with in any other way but to construct Gods and Totems to protect themselves.

It is to be considered unfortunate that at this late date in the year 2007 there are still human beings who cannot even now deal with LIFE without the crutch of a mythical being in the sky who has nothing better to do than actually hear their pathetic prayers. As an Atheist I must proclaim that I find such to be the most infantile concept that humankind has been heir to and as I like to sum it all up, "Why not the Tooth Fairy also?"

But it is my own Last Line that I provide to my friends and readers of my own Blogs that I believe to be the most compelling "If the human race is to survive one factor will be that we at last stop looking heavenward for our salvation and recognize our obligations to ourselves and the rest of our siblings of the Global Community to do what we have to do to solve our problems on our OWN."

And ironically, this is actually a pet phrase of the 'godly' contingent, i.e. "God helps those who help themselves."

BRAVO to all of my brethren Writers who have at long last come OUT OF THE ATHEIST CLOSET to assert their right to express their own Beliefs to counter the incessant bullying and propaganda we have been BOMBARDED with day and night by the Religious Right. We invaded Afghanistan to supposedly suppress the radical religious fundamentalists that are the Taliban, most disturbing and hypocritical that we have yet to stand up to our own Taliban right here in Amerika.

Urmutt

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I'm beyond atheistic
Posted by: snarlah on Jun 16, 2007 4:45 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I decided that the term for people like me is "non-theist." I have long believed that religion is the invention primarily of frightened men. Confused, afraid of death, afraid of the hugeness of life that surrounds them and wanting to keep control over other people, particularly women, men invented religion and now they feel so much better.

Then there's the insanity of people slaughtering each other over religious differences of opinion. It makes no sense to me.

It's all about power and control--I hope that people will become wiser if we're allowed to live long enough on this endangered planet by our white masters. Yes, I'm white and I say this anyway.

What I especially don't understand is why any woman would want to worship a male god or fear a male devil. It makes no sense to me, and neither does the idea of black people worshipping the slave owner's god. That's a white god, people. You need to undo the damage done to you by your masters. A good start would be to stop being Christians and reject the harm done to your people by missionaries of all kinds.

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» non-theist are ok Posted by: jingles
» RE: I'm beyond atheistic Posted by: Lauren
A federa /North Carolina Parallel
Posted by: larrykueneman on Jun 16, 2007 5:07 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of us may have missed an interesting parallel that played itself out in a very brief period in a North Carolina hearing room on June 16th . Mike Niphong was disbarred for his blatant attempt to railroad three Duke University students in order that he be re-elected to another term as County Prosecutor. The initial case was a county level action that took place as most cases do, with just one exception – no crime had been committed. His election was a success, but had the prosecutor also been successful in the case he was pursuing, the lives of the Lacross team members would have been totally destroyed. Sadly, much of the professorship and the administration at Duke thought the men were guilty even though they had seen literally none of the non-evidence that was to be submitted in court. Innuendo and the willingness on the part of the public to believe simply what they were told interrupted the calm and honesty of the lives of thousands of people nationwide as the scenario played out. Ok, that is North Carolina, but what about a Federal parallel.
There is a level of information stating that when George W. Bush moved into the White House he already intended to go to war in Iraq. While that might be true, it was the attack of 9-11 that opened the door to his efforts that followed.
Every first term president, before he takes the oath, is aware that he is a shoe-in for a second term if his administration is at war at the time of that second election, and Bush certainly wanted a second term. The evidence for the presence (or non-presence) of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, as well as other charges of criminal activity on the part of Saddam Hussein was altered and deleted by the administration when the answers were not conducive to a pre-emptive attack by the United States.
Niphong presented evidence that was potentially incriminating, and withheld the evidence that would have exonerated the three charged in the rape case, yet he strongly voiced his sureness of their guilt. Many of us believed him. His election came and went, but he had gone so far with this case he couldn’t back down.
The Bush administration saw to it that only evidence supporting the intention to go to war with Iraq was presented to the American people, and the majority of us supported the president given such overwhelming evidence for an attack. Few of us at the time knew we were the victims of a well-planned fraud that was far more involved than Mr. Niphongs. While the evidence for an invasion grew, the administration paid no attention to the many voices who warned that there was far more to a war in Iraq than simply dethroning Hussein. Bush even stood defiantly on the White House steps saying clearly, “We are not in the business of nation building.”
Completely ignoring the counsel of those with much experience that he should have been listening to, Bush entered into a war he thought would only last long enough to get him re-elected, and the council he so smugly dismissed proved quicky to be accurate. The U.S. got into a quagmire where we kept losing our young men and women specifically so Bush could have a second term, and we are still losing them to the same irrational bull-headedness that strangely elected him in the first place. Niphong had already gone too far by the time of his election. And by the time of the election for a second term for Bush, he had gotten us so far into a war in the middle-east that it may take a hundred years to undo the damage.
With Niphong, he lost his license to practice law, and the Duke team members were exonerated. In Bush’s case more than thirty-thousand Americans have been killed or maimed, and he doesn’t have a clue as to how to get us out. Perhaps it is time to withdraw Bush’s license to do this any more.

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Denial of Death
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 16, 2007 5:27 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back in 1973, Ernest Becker wrote his seminal work and Pulitzer Prize winner, "The Denial of Death." Now, from his point of view the belief in God is necessary by the majority in society, as without it, their lives would essentially collapse into meaninglessness. You also have existentialist writers like Sartre and Camus who have quite extensively developed this meaninglessness theme and essentially, have tried to create meaning out of the meaningless, I guess you could say (after declaring that "God is Dead"). Moving along, some contemporary writers and scientists, have tried to evolve this view into the sociobiological and logical positive camps we have today. Yes, they say, God is Dead, however, the world of matter is "really not dead." And, some meaning can still be found in life (it's still a mystery you know) and self-sacrifice is "in the genes." Since, it is hard to explain why when God is Dead, people should act in any shape or form different from their narrowly defined self-interest (to include committing crimes if they can get away with it), we must end with what is the weakness of the current atheist position. It is invariably the "God is Dead" point-of-view, and the so-called logical positivists and sociobiologists are left with even a weaker argument than the believers in God had to begin with. Frankly, I don't know how the atheists get out of this one. The problem is simple - God's existence or non-existence is irrelevent, but do people need to believe in order to survive and for society to function???

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» RE: Denial of Death Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Study Death Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Denial of Death Posted by: ShadowDweller
Great to see a rational discussion of religion...
Posted by: walker0511 on Jun 16, 2007 7:03 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I look forward to seeing other articles on this subject. It's essential for the long-term health of American democracy that religion and politics be kept separate. Religious states are known to be dictatorial and freedom is the lifeblood of western democracy. No one should be ashamed or afraid to openly state that they do not believe in God. The religious fundamentalists' compulsion to force everyone to think alike is anathema to a free society.

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God defined
Posted by: Ripcord on Jun 16, 2007 7:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What exists after all the proof and evidence shows that God does not exist?

What existed before the Big Bang?

What caused an ape to evolve into a homo sapien?

What is the Great, "I Am!"

What gives you the choice to decide whether God exists or God does not exist?

What is smaller than Plank's constant?

What is larger than all universes?

What more can be said about a "table" after listing endless qualities, quantities and functions?

What let Jesus cry on the cross, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

The same "What" that lets you cry on your death bed,
"There is no God!?"

What completes all incompleteness?

What gave hope for goodness during unspeakable evil in Buchenwald?

What lets an individual decide to do good or evil?

"What" is this that comes thus.

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» RE: God defined Posted by: abstractedaway
» RE: open the hand of thought Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: open the hand of thought Posted by: cpotter
nancylou
Posted by: nancylou on Jun 16, 2007 7:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What "if the hokey pokey' >is what it's all about?

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» RE: another good question Posted by: Ripcord
Belief in mysticism is nothing more than mental illness/stupidity
Posted by: ateo on Jun 16, 2007 7:59 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christians are mentally ill. There is a word for people that have conversations with voices in their head - schizophrenics. I cannot help but feel sorry for those who believe in these fairy tales that were thought up in the Middle East thousands of years ago.

At the same time I get upset because I know how dangerous religion makes these people to my physical safety. I know that your typical Christian would like nothing more than to see me burned alive for heresy for writing this post. Muslims would love to saw my head off for denying their religion and god.

I am no threat to these people but their religion tells them otherwise. Their "holy" texts tell them I am a threat and should be eliminated. It's a sick sort of situation when Christianity can be called the "religion of love" while condemning billions of people to an eternity in hell, instructing its followers to rape children, burn non-believers alive, so on and so forth. All in a day's work for the religion of "love and peace."

How people can be fooled so thoroughly into believing a fantasy from someone's imagination is incredible. Look to Hubbard and the Scientologists for an example of just how easy it is to create a religion and get certain kinds of people to believe it.

But then, that's the answer isn't it? There are smart people and there are not so smart people. The not so smart people need to be told what to think because they are incapable of thinking for themselves. I shudder to think what would happen without the Christian myth to keep some of these moronic apes in line by frightening them with tales of fire and brimstone and an eternity in a very bad place called "hell."

A top end and a low end to the IQ bell curve you know? I know where I fall on that curve and quite frankly it frightens me because if the world and existence are this difficult to understand for me it must be like a pig trying to decipher Greek for everyone else.

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» a little paranoia? Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: very dangerous Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: the tip of the sword Posted by: Ripcord
The road to Atheism should be a pleasant one
Posted by: carl baydala on Jun 16, 2007 8:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
recent Harris American poll shows that 31 percent of those with postgraduate education do not avow belief in God (compared with only 14 percent of those with a high school education or less). The percentage rises among professors and then again among professors at research universities, reaching 93 percent among members of the National Academy of Sciences. Unbelievers are to be found concentrated among those whose professional lives emphasize science or rationality and who also have developed a relatively high level of confidence in their own intellectual faculties. And they are frequently teachers or opinion-makers.

Well, with the above thoughts in mind, I think one could argue legitimately that the solution to America's problem with relgious addictions can be found in the pursuit of a more higher and focused education. There is indeed hope that the religious myth of Christianity can be corrected over time.

I am confident non-believer. And, I feel that it is my life calling to try and correct this imbalance that has pervaded American society. It is clear from the statistics that I provided that the most logical cause of the religious preferences of Americans is in fact, education. Apart from the lack of physical evidence of the Being in question, one might start with a philosophical approach and debate ideas concerning Idealism and Materialism. As this is the most central issue of philosophy, and most likely the most fascinating, I think the trip for the believers of Christianity into the world of reality can be an enjoyable one if conducted properly.

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sully18
Posted by: sully18 on Jun 16, 2007 9:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A description of the religious right and their aims from a song by Frank Zappa,1988 :
" Criminal saints,
with a heavenly mission,
a nation enraptured,
by pure superstition.
Do you believe in the invisible army?
What can I say, the man was gifted and far ahead of his time.If more people had listened to him we wouldn`t be in the immoral fix we`re in today.

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» RE: sully18 Posted by: dm.
nancylou
Posted by: nancylou on Jun 16, 2007 9:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that's what I thought...I guess my daughter was right about transcendentalism. ( she told me that when she was about 11) Yaaay!

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TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR THE 21st CENTURY*
Posted by: drricklippin on Jun 17, 2007 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are my "ten commandments for the 21st century" which I published in the year 2000

1. To thine own self be true-know thyself, love thyself, be thyself
2. Honor thy parents who have given you the gift of life and who have raised you from infancy
3. Honor and protect the planet earth which is your home
4. Honor and protect the holy temple of your body- your human flesh
5. Seek, experience and celebrate the beauty of everyone and everything
6. Enjoy thyself that thou might be enjoyed
7. Cherish and protect your individual freedom
8. Find and do meaningful work throughout all the days of your life
9. Prepare for a quality and dignified death from the very beginning of your life - cultivate gratitude
1O. Give and receive as much love as you possibly can including the unconditional and infinite love of God

Dr. Rick Lippin
April 2000

* with gratitude to high priestess extraordinaire- Dr. Joan Borysenko who gave us all the gift of the transformational words- “spiritual optimism”

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OPTIMISM= HOPE IS A MORAL IMPERATIVE
Posted by: drricklippin on Jun 17, 2007 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You may not believe in God but I hope you believe me when I posit that "optimism is a moral imperative"

So Linus waits in the pumpkin patch- hopefully and patiently.
He cannot live otherwise.

God may not exist but we must live as if he/she does?

Dr. Rick Lippin

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Do you believe or not believe? That is not the question.
Posted by: rac on Jun 17, 2007 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not read anything from the four new atheist authors, but I did listen to an interview with Hitchens. He ranted about religion but did not say anything about God. He did not even mention God once, which makes me wonder if Aronson has overlooked something:

There is a difference between a belief in God and a belief in religion. You can believe in God and abhor religion because religion is an embodiment of a belief system. The believers, especially the leaders, can be rascals of the first order. Aronson is writing about the four atheists criticisms of the institution of religion. I’m not sure if these guys actually have a beef about God belief. They may actually be true believers themselves. Do they believe in themselves and their own creativity? Most assuredly. That leaves an opening for a possible belief in a spiritual being.

Depending on how the question is phrased, you can get far more believers than nonbelievers or vice versa. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I believe Christianity has caused more harm than good in the world? Yes. In other words, I believe in God, but do not believe in religion as an institution we need in a modern world. Let’s get political. How many of you are like me?

One more small observation: I’m not an atheist because I believe in God. However, I believe God is evil. I want to have nothing to do with him. Now ask me simply if I believe in God. Yes, comes my answer and you have no idea where I’m coming from.

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» RE: God is good Posted by: Ripcord
The Re-Invention of God
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 17, 2007 10:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bottom line, be it a belief in science, or "the mystery and awe" of the universe (ie Carl Sagan), our so-called atheists really have just replaced God with some other belief.

The belief that man is basically good, and that people are improving morally, etc., is nothing more than a belief. A belief that is contradicted by much of the natural world and man himself. In the natural world, animals routinely kill each other for food, and life is brutal. As for man, the USA and Russia still point ICBM's at each other, and life on Earth could be incinerated in very quick order. Global warming, poverty, etc., we may very well just wipe ourselves out in short order. Freud may very well be right, man is probably more destructive than he is creative. As for evolution, man may just (and most likely is) just another dead-end.

Given this reality, and the absurdity of life if you do not invent or hold to some kind of belief system (once you have jettisoned God), it is definetly true. Our "atheists" have just reinvented God, under another name.

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» RE: The Re-Invention of God Posted by: factbased
» RE: The Re-Invention of God Posted by: sofla100
» RE: The Re-Invention of God Posted by: factbased
» RE: The Re-Invention of God Posted by: Doubtom
On separation of Church and State
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 17, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Belief", said Thomas Jefferson, "neither breaks my bones nor picks my pocket".

That's why a fundamental theme in the Constitution is the freedom to believe whatever you want to believe - Chrisitianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, paganism, atheism, agnosticism, Zoroastrian sun worship, and every other variety, sect and subdivision - all are allowed, and none are persecuted.

There are those who would like to reverse this situation, but that's because they are authoritarian nutcases who hide their real goals - wealth, power and luxury - behind a facade of religious piety.

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Free will then choice
Posted by: BOOK ABOUT on Jun 17, 2007 12:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a new book out that has discussed and it is hard to find because it was written and published without much of a chance to sell. The guy who wrote it has a blog.

The cover has about 25 items he says he has writen about. He said he is slowly explaining what is in the book on his blog. It seems to have something for everybody who believes one way or the other.

He has said "Have I made you mad yet, well if I hav'nt, don't worry, I'll get to you eventally."

It looks like it's a book that covers or uncovers this article both ways.
He has a blog. "frankiesbookabout.blogstream.com"

I found it very interesting and yes, he did sort of make me mad, but then he also made me glad.

It looks like a Gomer Pile book. Suprise. Suprise, Suprise.
It made me laugh a lot, . He said , "You can't sit on the fence about what is written because you will have to agree or disagree."

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Just semantics
Posted by: factbased on Jun 17, 2007 12:46 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's just a semantic difference here on the "christian nation" point. It can mean a nation with mostly christians or a nation with a christian state religion. Clearly the former is true and the latter is false.

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We Do Know This
Posted by: mstrschld on Jun 17, 2007 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Evidence or not, an atheist says "No" and an agnostic says "I don't know".

Atheism is the assertion that there is no God and there need not be one. It has often been said, even by or especially by believers, that we don't really have freedom to believe this or that. It isn't really in our power. Beliefs come and go. An inabilty (or one could say "refusal"- it's not important) to believe, along with the door left open, is agnosticism, and even God would say it is honorable. It has been said that God honors the principle "seeing is believing".

Atheism, on the other hand, is the active belief that there is no God. It's the rejection of the possibility of God and, please forgive me friends, but to believe this in a world wherein it becomes clear to us as little children that time and space can neither have an end nor beginning...it seems thoughtless to close the door in that kind of a world. We have definitive proof - in the conundrum of time and space - that something very odd is going on in this world and that it is - without a doubt - beyond us...beyond our capacity for reason.

So for non believers agnosticism is the wise position with which no one can quibble. Atheism is for those who are angry about the situation. Agnosticism is for those who see that the situation is really beyond us. We really don't have a clue as to what is going on and so we better just keep quiet, go about our business, hedge our bets, wait and see. Or perhaps better yet, search.

It's not hard to see that a lot of bad stuff happens in the name of religion. But organized religion and personal belief are two different things. There is a long tradition of belief outside the confines of organized religion. If there is a God He is probably just as much against the bad in organized religions as anyone else. He could very well have reasons for not making everything clear to people as soon as they become believers or for letting institutions supposedly set up in His name become perpetrators of evil. There may be a higher principle involved that He is trying to get across.

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» RE: We Do Know This Posted by: factbased
» RE: We Do Know This Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: We Do Know This Posted by: kogwonton
Atheists on the offense
Posted by: phal4875 on Jun 17, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is difficult to argue against a nebulous position. That makes it hard to prove that there is no God. The burden should be on those who profess a belief in some particular religion to show that it is true, not on those who disagree.

The viewpoint is that belief cannot be proven. On what is the belief based if it is not on facts of some sort? People are not foolish or stupid for having religious beliefs, but they appear to be hiding behind the idea that faith requires no facts as its foundation.

People long believed that some Greek gods had gods as fathers and humans as mothers. They believed that some of these gods could raise the dead and that at least one could walk on water. Christianity may be entirely correct, but the main reason it prevailed over all others in terms of numbers is the Emperor Constantine. He used his supposed conversion as a way to control his subjects. Christianity never looked back after it became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

If there is a God, it seems likely that He would be in charge of the whole universe, all 70 sextillion or so stars and probably many more planets. Are we really to believe that we are the focus of all this, that He created one human to lead the universe?

A baby sees itself as the center of a universe consisting of the people and space immediately around it. The baby learns to outgrow this viewpoint. Young children in the United States tend to believe in Santa Claus before moving past this idea. Is religion true or merely something we cannot usually outgrow?

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» RE: Atheists on the offense Posted by: kogwonton
Tread gently, folks
Posted by: jimstinson on Jun 17, 2007 1:33 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing undercuts an argument against dogma like a similarly dogmatic attitude. All we can assert with any claim to accuracy is that none of us -- not one -- has a clue about what, if anyone/thing, presides over creation, or even whether "creation" is an appropriate term for whatever it all is that appears to be.

Correction: we can also assert that sectarian religion has brought the world nothing but grief, destruction, and divisions among people, when our ultimate survival depends on inclusiveness, growing from a profound recognition that there is, finally, only one group of us.

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Just what humanism needs
Posted by: Gitaiba on Jun 17, 2007 11:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its very own Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

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Evidence Would Never Matter: No Paradigm for This
Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 17, 2007 5:04 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would point out that believers, at least in some type of afterlife or something of the sort, do have what they claim is evidence:

The Near Death Experiences that are recorded by Dr. Moody in particular. There are several hundred of these stories now. Many of them involve seeing a bright light at the presumed time of death, followed by some type of experience making the "dead" individual realize he or she has to go back.

Several well documented "rememberances" of past lives. Some of these stories are actually quite remarkable and involved. To include, individuals who have tracked down even previous relatives and referred to them by name.

And, there are many other stories, reports, etc. Now, from an atheists point-of-view none of these stories matter much. They can be attributed to neurological events in the brain or regarded as freak, non-replicable events that do not pass scientific scrutiny.

However, other scientists have indicated it really does not matter if these events indicated or even proved an after-life. The reason being, the paradigm does not exist in current science to ever explain these things. Therefore, on that basis alone, none of this ever could be accepted.

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ah diddums
Posted by: whitey on Jun 18, 2007 2:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poor smug intolerant fundamentalist atheists
Hang on, I'll make you a cup of tea. Put ya feet up

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the problem with the call for a new coalition
Posted by: whitey on Jun 18, 2007 2:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is this. I regard the radical right religious as a stain on the bedsheets of humanity. But how on earth am I supposed to make common cause with some fundie who thinks I'm an idiot because I have a non-materialist worldview? They think I'm delusional, I think they're disgusting bigots.
No common cause there. Not ever.

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» just what do you expect? Posted by: EasterBunny
it's about time ....
Posted by: Shey on Jun 18, 2007 4:45 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... for the backlash to hit. Thank the Great Goddess and all the Lords of Kobol.

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» RE: it's about time .... Posted by: Shey
The New Compassionates
Posted by: shira on Jun 18, 2007 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been an "out" atheist for as long as I can remember, even though I attended a private Jewish school from kindergarten through 12th grade. In fact, my teachers encouraged questioning and dissent, and at the end of my thirteen years of study, I was given the Bible Award for my intellectual approach to the study of religious texts.

I agree with Aronson when he says "Living without God means turning toward something. To flourish we need coherent secular popular philosophies that effectively answer life's vital questions." For me, veganism is just that philosophy. Not veganism as in the popular, narrow definition of not eating animal products, but veganism as a broader philosophy of compassion, a mandate to do the most good and the least harm when it comes to humans, other animals and the environment. The trouble is, veganism has a bad rap in many circles as "radical" or too narrowly focused. That's why I'm starting to identify myself with a new term - "Compassionate," as in "I'm a Compassionate." The Compassionates are people who fight for justice, freedom and security for all. We don't believe in God, rather, we believe in the potential and responsibility of humans to affect positive social change. Want to join us?

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» RE: The New Compassionates Posted by: Doubtom
NO ONE IS STOPPING ATHEISTS FROM RUNNING FOR OFFICE, ETC? BE PROUD OF
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 18, 2007 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
YOUR ATHEISM. STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR YOUR FEAR OF REJECTION. YOU SEEM TO BE JUST ANOTHER GROUP OF VICTIMS. GROW UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

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REACTION OF A 30 YEAR UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR TO THE
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 18, 2007 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DATA REPORTED PREVIOULSY ABOUT THE CORRECLATION BETWEEN LEVEL OF EDUCATION AND ATHEISM ESPECIALLY AMONG COLLEGE PROFESSORS?

IT IS NO SURPRISE TO ME AS PROFESSORS TEND TO BE PRIMA DONNAS AND EXCESSIVELY INTELLECTUALLY PRIDEFUL. MUSH OF THIS ATTITUDE IS PASSED ON TO STUDENTS, ESPECIALLY THOSE IN GRADUATE SCHOOL.

THE BIBLE SAYS IT BEST ABOUT THE ATHEISTS I HAVE SEEN ON ALTERNET:

2 Timothy 3

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, PROUD, BLASPHEMERS, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT ARE GOOD
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 EVER LEARNING AND NEVER ABLE TO COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also RESIST THE TRUTH (WON'T MAKE THE EXPERIMENT): men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

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You're all asking the wrong questions.
Posted by: leftymathprof on Jun 18, 2007 11:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Asking whether or not a god exists (and what are its color, its gender, and its calendar) is like asking which you prefer, Star Wars or Star Trek. It hardly matters. What matters is this: What is the core of your existence? What is the basis for the day-to-day decisions you make in your life, and for your hopes and/or fears? Is it (a) I hear voices inside my head, telling me what to do, and I think that's God. (b) I do whatever my minister says, and I never give it a moment's thought, because my minister is right and all the other ministers are wrong. (c) I do whatever my president says, because he is the president. (d) I try to be like my parents. (e) I do whatever feels good (for instance, sex and chocolate). (f) I do whatever feels good (for instance, helping others). (g) Other. (h) I'm not sure; I've never thought about that question. (i) All of the above.

If you put aside all the supernatural spooky parts of the story, the New Testament includes some pretty inspiring dialogue -- about rebelling against authority, helping the poor, and so on. I like those parts of the story. I guess I prefer Star Wars (rebellion) to Star Trek (unquestioning belief in a leader who allegedly is justifiably endowed with authority).

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» You're reading the wrong book. Posted by: EasterBunny
Why the Atheists are rising!
Posted by: Fog on Jun 18, 2007 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you learn the truth, the "Truth" is a joke.

No History; Know Jesus
Know History; No Jesus


Watch Zeitgeist and spread the word!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8461754114455236037

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There is a reason that theism is more prevalent among the less educated
Posted by: dkm on Jun 18, 2007 12:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I didn't really believe the heading until I read the responses of JoshuaLudd and Conservasaurus. These guys have absolutely no ability to think. At first I thought they were deliberately putting up strawmen as argumentative points, but following their responses, I am convinced that they really can't tell the difference.

Having said that, anyone, in the most dictatorial or the most liberal regimes, can believe whatever they want. The difference comes in how you manifest your beliefs, your behavior. When you try to impose your beliefs on others or act on your beliefs to the detriment of others, then you have crossed the line. I submit that the fundamentalists of all stripes of religion have crossed this line so far that they can't find their way back. That is the difference between someone who cares about others and someone who needs to dominate others. I have yet to see a better definition of a religious fanatic than someone whose dogma supercedes the well-being of others.

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» it's better to be stupid. Posted by: EasterBunny
0hmygod
Posted by: 0hmygod on Jun 18, 2007 2:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What can you do to help atheism?

Tell your congressman/senator that the church income and property should be taxed like everything else? Why should Christianity get a free ride? Perhaps running a soup kitchens is enough reason to receive billions upon billions in tax breaks.

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Faith is not stupid. It's moronic.
Posted by: alblazo on Jun 18, 2007 5:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Faith" is what you have when either you don't have the facts, don't understand the facts or refuse to accept the facts that compel you to a certain conclusion.

Whenever you hear someone invoking God, just substitute the word Santa C;aus, the Easter Bunny, angel, fairy or gnome in your mind. You'll soon come to see how much sense belief in supernatural deities really is.

~Rev. El Mundo
Pastor, WVSCR

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Also, I am not cheerleader for human rights or any other rights. I respect their value in providing
Posted by: zyxwvut on Jun 18, 2007 9:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people with defenses against tyranny, however discursive and tenuous these defenses may be, but I disagree with the anthropolatry often associated with "secularist" (this is a vogue movement) trumpeting of the value of rights as if they are a panacea for the world's ills. Rhetoric to this effect is, in my view, likely to be a strategy of aggrandizing individuals and organizations.

I do not associate the championing of reason (with which I agree) with championing of rise of humanity's power (a topic on which I have mixed feelings). I respect logic/reason in itself, as a universally available tool, not as something necessarily confined to human intelligence. In my view, logic-in-itself is simply the relations between things, and the formal, often academic, pursuit of logic is the organization of systems of broad principles that attempt to deduce the relations between things for a wide array of phenomena. Thus other beings can, in theory, be highly logical. It is entirely possible that some extraterrestrial lifeforms in other areas of the universe are highly intelligent and more advanced in their understanding of the Cosmos than are humankind, so I would not associate reason with humankind exclusively. In cosmology, the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is a foregone conclusion.

My arguments in favor of atheism have been influenced by a high regard for logic. My high regard for logic is not, however, the product of anthropolatry.

I am fully aware that human knowledge represents far from a complete understanding of the world and it is by no means separate from our nature as animals that inhabit an environment with finite resources. We compete for resources and group standing, often violently, and the power of human knowledge has aided these conflicts. A humanist worldview would be susceptible to influencing atrocities, just as a religious worldview.

But science and secularism have not been around for nearly as long as religion has, and sure, they have motivated mistakes that have gravely damaged people, but they also represent unfamiliar terrain for our species. I think in the long term a worldview based on reason and evidence would be less likely to result in mistakes than one based on faith in unevidenced stories.

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GOD has already returned, I have proof!!!
Posted by: akwash on Jun 19, 2007 1:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VZgVimp4-J0

For all you naysayers

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Poster boy
Posted by: alblazo on Jun 19, 2007 3:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear tell that the jackass in that clip has signed multi-year, multi-gazillion dollar contracts with both Liberty College and Glaxo-Smith-Kline to be their international Prozac representative.

He's the perfect choice, wouldn't you say?

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» RE: Poster boy Posted by: akwash
Conservosaurus
Posted by: bob t on Jun 20, 2007 8:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You think the right wing extremists are not catholics. Most, not all catholics are right wingers. If you voted for Bush and the Republicans than you as a catholic are a right winger.
And if you think your right wing non-catholic evangelical fundies(not all evangelicals; certainly not Jimmy and Rosalind Carter, Bill Moyers and Jim Wallis nor Joel Osteen, all very good people and not Republican killers for profit) but the died-in-the-wool and dead-in-the-wool evangelical fundies are against you right wing catholics just wait. What I can see coming is that all of you have merged religion and the slime of politics and as a result the day will come when they don't need you anymore. At that time those violent people and you violent people will really be at war with each other. They will descend on you like a plague of locusts and eat you alive. They will very possibly turn the military against you, O'Reilly, O'Hannity, O'Scarborough, O'Matthews, Bill Donoghue and Tom Monoghan.
When that day comes I of the centrists us peacniks will wait until all the bloodshed, or the silent bloodshed will satnd around and let you two groups kill each other. I, personally will abandon you, just as you abandoned me, other centrist-independants like me and the left wingers.
When your blood fued is over we will try to pick up the pieces of both groups of right wingers, catholic fundies and evangelical fundies and try to put you back together again and try to get all of you to 'make nice', and remember the true teachings of Jesus Christ, that oh so wise and great liberal Jewish guy who said, render to caesar... and render to God... I will also remind you of our US Constitution that forbids the merging of church and state.
Maybe then you and your kind will help us all resurrect our now badly shredded but still cherished by us centrists, independants and leftists, and whats left of our troops and their families and whats left of the Iraqis and Afghanis and try to put this world back together again.
What you do in the name of your so called pro-life(really only pro-birth) is nothing more than an ongoing abomination unto humanity.
You can have Popes PiusXI(Reichskonkordat of 1933) and Pius XII both Nazi popes. And you can have Popes John Paul II(of the Republican party, same as Nazi party) and Ratzinger/Benedict XVI(aka the nazi pope).
I will stick to Pope Leo XIII(aka the working mans pope, Rerum Novarum, against rampant capitalism) and Thomas Merton. Both of them great social justice proponents and neither of them sell-outs to the Republican party of death for PROFIT.
I sent an email/letter to Pope John Paul II and asked him to please, please stay out of american politics. The response, published in Early 2005 was that he was not involved in American politics. But he/the Vatican lied, to whit: just a few months earlier he had threatedn to excommunicate Sen. John Kerry, then running for president, for his pro-choice/leave it alone/respect the law stance. Which is not exactly the same as pro-abortion.
Also please remember that Scalia gave a speech calling for the END of the rule of law and the END of democracy in the US. Seems to me that there are a lot of right wing catholics and popes (John Paul nd Benedict) who worship at the altar of Bush, the Bush family and the Republican party, or maybe it's the other way around; whatever.
Just some things you might think about; especially before you vote in '08.
The Dems aren't perfect but they are far more controllable by the people, remember 'we the people' 'in order to form a MORE perfect union'. Most certainly not a union of religious and corporate killers for MORE profit.
You people who conflate Jesus, politics and profit are so totally wrong. That si what the Republican party is ALL, ALL, ALL ABOUT.

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» RE: Conservosaurus Posted by: RobertVermeers
Rise of the New Atheists
Posted by: zetra001 on Jun 21, 2007 10:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
see Rise of the New Atheists

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Sweeter Older Bob
Posted by: RobertVermeers on Jun 24, 2007 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading this excellent article the subject of Santa Claus comes to mind. One day during the Christmas season I had explained to my grandson about the truth behind Santa Claus. It seems a friend at school told him that Santa Claus was really his parents. So, I located Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus on the internet, printed it out, and read it to him. I explained that Santa Claus was an abstraction like I had been explaining love and other abstractions. So, the next time the subject came up, when he told me about a game that he expected to get for Christmas, and I asked him if he asked Santa Claus for it. He said yes. And I asked him if Santa told him he would bring him one. His answer was my parents will get it for me.

Another incident that happened to me when I was his age occurred in school after the teacher had read a story that included the character Santa Claus. I asked whether the story could be true. My question drew an immediate response from a classmate that could be considered derisive, "Oh, Bob!" Apparently I had held on to the literal belief in Santa Claus longer than at least one of my classmates.

Inasmuch as I believe in a spiritual existence that isn't necessarily separate from our corporeal existence -- in other words when we die our spiritual existence only lives in the minds of people who remember us.

If all this makes me a crack-pot, well, I am reminded of the saying that sometimes the only thing wrong with a new idea is: it's new. And while the abstract nature of the mythical character Santa Claus isn't new, I believe applying it to the concept of God just might be.

As we struggle with the idea of the literal existence of a god I am inclined to believe that God is an abstraction. It helps explain the wide acceptance of the existence of God among intellectuals. I believe one could substitute God for Santa Claus in the famous editorial response, “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.”

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The spirit of spiritless conditions
Posted by: PlasticDoor on Jul 7, 2007 7:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and also the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of spiritless conditions. It is the opium of the people. To abolish religion as the illusory happiness of the people is to demand their real happiness. The demand to give up illusions about the existing state of affairs is the demand to give up a state of affairs which needs illusions.

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deism |ˈdēizəm|
Posted by: PlasticDoor on Jul 7, 2007 7:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
deism |ˈdēizəm| noun; belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind. Compare with theism.

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