COMMENTS: 214
Give Ethanol a Chance: The Case for Corn-Based Fuel
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Each month, my phone bill carries alerts that urge me to take action on a specific issue or two. Recent Citizen Actions suggest the gravity of the issues chosen: "Save Our Constitution," "Impeach Dick Cheney," "Close Guantanamo."
This month Working Assets urged me to "Say No to Ethanol."
How did the use of ethanol end up alongside tyranny and torture as an evil to be conquered?
A couple of years ago, I was waiting my turn to speak to a well-attended California conference on alternative fuels. For this gathering, alternative fuels included natural gas, clean diesel, fossil fueled derived hydrogen, coal-fired electricity, as well as wind energy and biofuels. The leadoff speaker, from the California Energy Commission, spoke warmly about all the alternative fuels under discussion. Except one. When it came to ethanol, he visualized his perspective with the metaphor of a giant hypodermic needle from Midwest corn farmers to California drivers. For him and, I suspect, most of California's state government, ethanol belongs in the same category as heroin.
In the late 1990s, the nation discovered that MTBE, a widely used gasoline additive made of natural gas and petroleum-derived isobutylene was polluting ground water. The environmental community largely defended its continued use and vigorously opposed substituting ethanol. One well-respected New England environmental coalition raised the possibility that ethanol blends could cause fetal alcohol syndrome. Fill up your gas tank with 10 percent ethanol and your baby could be alcoholic, their report warned.
In the last few years, the environmental position has shifted from an attack on ethanol from any source to an attack on corn and corn-derived ethanol. The assault on corn comes from so many directions that sometimes the arguments are wildly contradictory. In an article published in the New York Times Magazine earlier this year Michael Pollan, an excellent and insightful writer, argues that cheap corn is the key to the epidemic of obesity. The same month, Foreign Affairs published an article by two distinguished university professors who argued that the use of ethanol has led to a runup in corn prices that threatens to sentence millions more to starvation.
Ethanol is not a perfect fuel. Corn is far from a perfect fuel crop. We should debate their imperfections. But we should also keep in mind the first law of ecology. "There is no such thing as a free lunch." Tapping into any energy source involves tradeoffs.
Yet when it comes to ethanol, and corn, we accept no tradeoffs. In 30 years in the business of alternative energy, I've never encountered the level of animosity generated by ethanol, not even in the debate about nuclear power. When it comes to ethanol, we seem to apply a different standard than we do when we evaluate other fuels.
When California discovered MTBE in its groundwater, it petitioned the federal government to be allowed to phase out MTBE without using ethanol. It wanted to substitute a 100 percent petroleum-derived fuel. The environmental community was strongly supportive of that request.
I can't but think that the environmental community, as currently constituted, would have supported the use of lead over ethanol as its no-knock additive of choice for gasoline in the early 1920s.
When President George W. Bush first embraced the hydrogen economy, most environmentalists applauded, even though they conceded that for the first 10-20 years, hydrogen would be derived from fossil fuels. Indeed, so eager were they to jump-start hydrogen that Minnesota environmentalists helped enact a bill that defines hydrogen made from natural gas as a renewable fuel.
When it comes to ethanol, reporters appear obligated by some unwritten rule of the profession to talk about whether ethanol uses more energy in the cultivation and processing of the crop than it contains. In the hundreds of interviews I've had with journalists about ethanol over the years, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times the net energy issue did not come up.
Articles about hydrogen in the mainstream, or alternative press, on the other hand, rarely talk about net energy. This despite the fact that while the net energy of ethanol may be debated, there is no debate about the energetics of hydrogen. Made from fossil fuels, hydrogen is a net energy loser.
While we're on the net energy issue, a few words about the ubiquitous David Pimentel. No article about ethanol is complete without a negative comment from Pimentel. David is a distinguished professor who believes corn ethanol uses more fossil fuels in its production than it displaces. It's certainly fair to quote him. He is a highly credible source.
But in 2005, a scientific journal published a new study by Pimentel and his collaborator, Tad Patzek. The study concluded that while corn-derived ethanol was a slight net energy loser, the energetics of biodiesel and ethanol made from cellulose were far worse.
The conversation about net energy went on as if nothing new had been added. The enemy was still corn. Pimentel and Patzek's conclusion that other crops were much worse than corn as sources of transportation fuels, was filtered out. My old psychology professor called this process cognitive dissonance. We screen out what doesn't gibe with preconceived notions. We hate corn. We don't hate soybeans or grasses. Therefore the negative things Pimentel and Patzek said about corn we consider authoritative. Their negative comments about soybeans and grasses we ignore.
I hope in the future we might engage in a more productive conversation and balanced discussion about the role of plants in a future industrial economy. To that end, I offer six propositions. I look forward to a debate on all or any one of these.
1. Sustainability requires molecules. Wind and sunlight are excellent energy sources, but they cannot provide the molecular building blocks that make physical products. For that we must choose minerals or vegetables (I'm lumping animals with vegetables for obvious reasons).
Minerals will always be an important source of molecules, in part because hundreds of billions of tons are already in existing products and these products have a very high recycleability potential. But ultimately we must increasingly rely on biological resources for our industrial needs if we are to achieve sustainability.
2. Wind and sunlight can only be harnessed for some form of energy (thermal, mechanical, electrical). Plants, on the other hand, can be used for many purposes: human nutrition, animal feed, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, clothing, building materials, fuels. The challenge for public policy is to design rules that encourage the highest and best use of our finite land area (and sea and lake areas).
Few would argue that human nutrition is the highest use of plants, followed by medicinal uses and possibly clothing. After that we might differ. My organization has argued that we should first use biomass to substitute for industrial products that use fossil fuels rather than for the fuels themselves. We make this argument in part because while there is insufficient biomass to displace a majority of fuels, there is a sufficient quantity to displace up to 100 percent of our petroleum and natural gas-derived chemicals and products. And these are much higher value products.
Thus vegetable oils should be used to make nonmineral motor oils and lubricants as a higher priority than being used to displace diesel. Plant sugars should be used to make plastics and other biochemicals as a higher priority than being used to displace gasoline. If we offered the $1 per gallon biodiesel incentive to biolubricants, would it significantly expand that market? If we offered the 51-cents-per-gallon ethanol incentive to bioplastics, would it significantly expand that market?
3. Corn is a transitional energy feedstock, but it has played a crucial role in creating the infrastructure for a carbohydrate economy. We are moving beyond corn, to more abundant feedstocks like cellulose. But a carbohydrate economy, where plants have an industrial role, would have been delayed by 20-30 years if not for corn.
As the nation's largest agricultural industry, with politically powerful corporate players like ADM, the corn industry had the clout to play with the big boys(e.g. coal, oil, natural gas) when federal incentives were liberally distributed in 1978 and 1980.
Federal incentives made ethanol blends competitive with gasoline at the gas pump. That was a necessary but wildly insufficient step toward getting biofuels into the gas pump. To accomplish that the embryonic biofuels industry had to persuade its competitor, the oil industry, to use ethanol instead of its own product. As the same time the ethanol industry had to convince car companies, which had designed their engines hand in glove with the oil companies for 60 years, to allow ethanol into their gas tanks.
For the first decade after the federal ethanol incentive was passed, a majority of ethanol was distribution through cooperatively owned and independently owned gas stations in the Midwest. Only in the late 1980s did car company manuals stop advising owners not to use ethanol blends.
Today a national biofuel distribution network exists. Some 30 percent of all cars use ethanol blends. The corn-derived ethanol industry has lowered per-gallon in-plant energy use by 75 percent since the early 1980s. And enzymatic research has been the foundation for new developments in bioplastics and other bioproducts.
We are nearing the end of the corn-to-ethanol era. Ethanol production has doubled since 2005 and promises to double again by 2010. It is unlikely any new corn to ethanol plants will be built beyond those currently in the construction pipeline. Even the National Corn Growers Association expects ethanol demand to exceed the capacity of the corn crop when all the new ethanol plants come online. All congressional bills that would increase the biofuels mandate also cap the amount of corn-derived ethanol at 15 billion gallons. After 2012, all additional ethanol capacity must be based on noncorn crops.
Cellulosic materials will be the prime feedstock. Some, like Vinod Khosla, a major proponent and investor in cellulosic ethanol plants, argues that his first plants, to be online by 2010, will produce ethanol competitively with $4 a bushel corn.
4. Electricity, not biofuels, will be the primary energy source for an oil-free and sustainable transportation system. But biofuels can play an important role in this future as energy sources for backup engines that can significantly reduce battery costs and extend driving range.
Even when we move from corn to cellulose, we likely lack sufficient arable land to cultivate enough biomass to displace more than about 25 percent of our transportation fuels (diesel plus gasoline). This is not an unimportant amount, but we need to accept that biofuels will not play the primary role in eliminating our dependence on oil. That role, as I've discussed in my 2003 report, A Better Way to Get From Here to There, will be played by electricity.
Miles traveled on electricity are oil-free miles because we use very little oil to generate electricity. Traveling on electricity means getting over 100 miles per gallon equivalent, triple the increased fuel efficiency standard under debate in the U.S. Senate. Traveling on electricity generates no tailpipe pollution and costs 1-2 cents per mile compared to 10-15 cents per mile for traveling on gasoline or biofuels. The electricity would initially come from a grid system almost 50 percent powered by coal, but given the renewable portfolio standards in place, an increasing percentage of our electricity would come from renewable resources like wind or sunlight.
The Achilles' heel of all-electric cars is the cost and weight of batteries and the need for recharging every 100 miles or so. A backup engine overcomes that shortcoming.
If the backup engine powers the car 25 percent of the time, we will have enough biomass to displace 100 percent of the petroleum used in the engine. Coupled with oil-free electricity, this can lead us to reduce by 80-100 percent our reliance on oil for transportation.
5. Approach biofuels as an agricultural issue with energy security implications, not as an energy security issue with agricultural implications. Design policies to maximize the benefit to rural areas of using plant matter for industrial and energy uses. The key is local ownership of biorefineries.
A 25 percent displacement of transportation fuels by biofuels will have an important, but not a determining or primary impact on energy security. But it could have a determining impact on the future of agriculture and rural communities. That's where we should focus our attention.
A 25 percent displacement of diesel and gasoline would require the cultivation and harvesting of more, perhaps far more, additional plant matter than is currently harvested for all purposes -- food, feed, chemicals, textiles, energy, paper, construction. That prospect affords us the opportunity to devise farm policies that dramatically restructure agriculture both here, and perhaps even more importantly, globally, where agriculture and rural villages still account for anywhere from 25 percent to 50 percent of the population.
The two key problems with agriculture are: (1) millions of farmers compete to sell their raw material into increasingly concentrated markets and (2) farmers sell raw materials and buy back finished goods, falling further and further behind. For almost two centuries, governments have devised programs to deal with this. The United States has two core farm strategies.
One is called supply management. Quotas keep domestic prices high. This is the way the sugar program works. The other more prevalent strategy involves farm payments when prices fall below a target level. The farmer sells his or her crop at prices below the cost of production. The government, via the general taxpayer makes up the difference. The price of food is lower.
It is unclear, if and when we shift to cellulosic biofuels, that farmers will avoid the core problems currently confronting grain farmers. This year's farm bill likely will offer money to farmers to cultivate cellulosic crops like grasses. Quite likely this initial payment program will evolve into a target price program similar to that now used for commodity crops.
In 2015, cellulosic farmers may be selling their crops to biorefineries at prices below the cost of production and receive government payments to make up the difference. Fuel costs will be modestly lower, just as food costs today are modestly lower because of government programs.
However, we can devise policies that enable a different future, one in which farmers, and other rural residents, own the value added biorefinery. Agricultural materials, by their nature, are bulky and costly to transport long distances. Thus processing tends to be local and regional. Biorefineries, unlike petroleum refineries, can be small in scale and thus enable local ownership.
Local ownership benefits farmers in a number of ways. It allows them to hedge against crop price declines. If their crop price goes down, the input costs of the biorefinery also decline and all things being equal, profits will be higher and they will receive a higher dividend check at the end of the year. Studies by the Institute for Local Self-Reliance and other organizations have found that farmers can earn up to five times more per bushel by co-owning a biorefinery rather than simply selling to it.
Local ownership benefits rural areas, as many studies have documented, because a much greater portion of the dollar generated by the biorefinery stays within the community. Local ownership benefits state economies because it generates more taxable income.
Local ownership and the scale of biorefineries have never been a consideration of the environmental movement. That may be changing. Until recently, the organic agriculture movement, for example, focused on the biological health of the soil, not the economic health and security of the farmers and rural communities. Now in several states, organic certification takes into account ownership and place. A new slogan is "Local is the new organic."
A priority on rootedness and local ownership should be included in initiatives proposed by the environmental community regarding biofuels. They should not only lobby for sustainable crops but also sustainable rural communities and a sustainable income for cultivators.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Minnesota led to the way in devising policies to encourage modest scaled biorefineries and farmer and local ownership. The movement caught on. Whereas in 1988 ADM accounted for 75 percent of ethanol output, in 2002 it accounted for about 35 percent. In that year, farmer owned biorefineries produced almost as much ethanol, collectively as did ADM's giant plants. Eighty percent of all new ethanol plants built or proposed that year were majority farmer or locally owned.
The current ethanol boom has changed the structure of the industry. Today, over 90 percent of all new ethanol plants are absentee-owned. The typical new plant has a capacity of 100 million gallons or more, almost triple the average size plant built in 2002 and making it very difficult to have majority local ownership.
In the 2005 Energy Act, Congress did direct the Department of Energy to give a priority to farmer ownership and rural development when it disbursed funds to accelerate cellulosic ethanol. DOE ignored the congressional directive. Congress made no fuss. All the attention is on getting more cellulosic ethanol, not getting better cellulosic ethanol, at least in its impact on farmers and rural communities.
Nothing in the current farm bill or current energy bills under consideration addresses the ownership and scale issue.
6. Support performance, not prescriptive standards.
Performance standards specify outcomes. They specify an end result, but not how that result is achieved. They focus on ends and leave the design of means to entrepreneurs. Performance standards foster competition and innovation. Renewable electricity portfolio standards, now in place in two dozen states, are performance standards. A variety of renewable fuels qualify -- wind, solar, biomass, hydro, geothermal, landfill gas, ocean or tidal power.
Prescriptive standards are like a recipe. They prescribe exactly how to achieve a specific result. The 2005 federal renewable fuel standard for transportation fuels and the new standard under debate in the U.S. Senate are prescriptive standards. They mandate the use of a single renewable fuel: ethanol.
Congress should transform the renewable transportation fuel standard into a performance standard, not only for internal consistency, but also because of the coming convergence of electricity and transportation.
California is developing a performance standard. Theirs is based on carbon emissions. Under that standard, natural gas derived hydrogen would probably not qualify as better than gasoline. Nor would corn ethanol produced in coal fired biorefineries. Cellulosic ethanol would rate higher than corn ethanol. Wind electricity likely would rate higher than cellulosic ethanol but perhaps lower than sugar cane derived ethanol where the cane cellulosic byproduct is used to power the processing plant.
For the next 5-15 years, the difference in the on-the-ground impact of a renewable transportation fuels standard rather than a biofuels mandate would be small in the same way as the on-the-ground impact of a renewable electricity standard versus a wind energy mandate has been small.
Wind energy accounts for 80 percent to 95 percent of the renewable electricity generated under the renewable portfolio standards. Because of their head start, national delivery systems and drop in capability to existing engines, ethanol and biodiesel would comprise at least as high a proportion of a renewable transportation fuel performance standard in the near future.
But in the longer term, a performance standard is superior public policy. It mandates ends, not means. It encourages diversity and flexibility and innovation, and provides a level playing field for entrepreneurs.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Darkly on Jun 13, 2007 1:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even worse it drives up the price of all the other foods. Instead of this food going to your grocery store it goes into gasoline. The government encourages this scam by offering government substities making cotton, carrot and other farmers switch to corn for the increase in profit which raises the price of all other farmed goods to.
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» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: EncinoM
» ur both wrong
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: ur both wrong ...oh really
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» You have to reform industrial agriculture - make it fossil fuel-free
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: hilaryuk
» The real answer: STOP DRIVING!!! Eat local seasonal foods!! Think differently!!!
Posted by: alternetleslie
» RE: The real answer: STOP DRIVING!!! Eat local seasonal foods!! Think differently!!!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Ethanol output to input ratio is 1.34 to 1 vs. crude range which is 10-1 up to 300-1
Posted by: messedup
» RE: thanol output to input ratio is 1.34 to 1 vs. crude range which is 10-1 up to 300-1
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Actually, oil comes from plant decomposition.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» ETHANOL IS NO SOLUTION, NOT EVEN A STOP GAP
Posted by: edgar_michel
» It will also cut into the profit margins of Big Oil! Oh NO!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: THANOL IS NO SOLUTION - Brazil has much cheaper labor
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Cook the numbers any way you want - energy budgets are PR fun.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: symcokid
» Sugar!
Posted by: jasonk
» RE: Sugar! - And they are destroying the Amazonian rain forest to grow the cane!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: channing
» Solar Power - No War Required
Posted by: Pile
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: robbrian
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Jun 13, 2007 3:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reasons for not persuing an ethanol future are like the reasons for not doing coal liquifaction, these reasons being serious enough to push wind and solar as a real means of addressing two large problems for now and the future: a clean environment and energy.
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» RE: Pfft! Harness the wind produced in this debate!
Posted by: gazooks
» Could you elaborate
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Could you elaborate
Posted by: gazooks
» Thanks!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Think Small and Unobtrusive
Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: Think Small and Unobtrusive - I like the way you think, but
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Think Small and Unobtrusive - I like the way you think, but
Posted by: edgar_michel
» No, what's needed is reform of the entire agricultural system to make it fossil fuel-free.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: No, what's needed is reform of the entire agricultural system to make it fossil fuel-free.
Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: Pfft!... exactly...
Posted by: channing
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EinMD on Jun 13, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So I ended up with a home I could afford that's forty fricken miles away from my work. Because that was what I could afford that wasn't in a neighborhood where I had to worry if my kid was going to get shot in a driveby on the way home. I didn't take that house because I wanted to waste gas. I took that home because I was tired of flushing money down the toilet in a crappy ass 1 bedroom apartment for $800 a month.
So don't give me that work closer to home mansion in the burbs bullshit. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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» RE: We love corn...
Posted by: edgar_michel
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Jun 13, 2007 2:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good idea! How about a mileage tax, factored by the weight of the vehicle, for non-commercial travel.
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» RE: Mileage Tax - How about viable public transportation first
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: socialpsych on Jun 13, 2007 3:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You hit the nail on the head!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: You hit the nail on the head!
Posted by: socialpsych
» Nobody want to talk about Give Birth Control a Chance
Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: Give Birth Control a Chance
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Give Birth Control a Chance - burning a rainforest and replacing
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Bull's Eye!!
Posted by: Sparks56
Comments are closed-
Posted by: uluro on Jun 13, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not as wacky as killing people in order to steal their oilfields.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Not as wacky as killing people in order to steal their oilfields.
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: xtiml on Jun 13, 2007 4:30 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: xtiml on Jun 13, 2007 4:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xtiml Right ON!!
Posted by: Dankhank
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Posted by: collery on Jun 13, 2007 4:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever considered ways of using less of everything, or that you have been squandering the world's resources?
You make a lot of interesting points, one about farmers producing primary goods. But there are entire countries that produce mainly primary goods for rich countries. US farmers are subsidised but many unsubsidised poorer countries can't compete, even though they produce cheap primary goods for the US and other rich countries.
To make matters worse, or perhaps as a sick joke, the US lectures these poorer countries on free trade!
The problem is not just water, food, resource and land shortage and sustainability, the problem is also distribution, access and affordability. There may well be plenty of all these resources but the world's population don't have equal access to them.
You make vague, sweeping mentions of 'global' things but do you really recognise that the US is just one country and the whole world is many times bigger than the US? Of course, the US looks a lot bigger when you look at it in terms of consumption, but that is the very problem, OVER-CONSUMPTION.
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Posted by: chomsky on Jun 13, 2007 5:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Butanol, an alcohol produced by fermentation of sugars and cellulose, would be much better suited to replace gasoline then ethanol.
It's non-corrosive, unlike ethanol.
Butanols energy density is much closer to gasoline. Which means a much less drop in fuel efficiency.
It can be blended much more easily with gasoline.
And it's not hydrophilic, also unlike ethanol. Ethanols absorption of water makes for a problem with engines.
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» So why don't we use this source of
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: mnlefty on Jun 13, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: how is it not about net energy?
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: pgj1949 on Jun 13, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are, in our use of energy, the most profligate people in the world. Filling the tanks of our Humvees with corn-based ethanol would provide the hungry multitudes of the world with yet another image of our indifference to whether or not they even survive.
Feeding people should come before running cars.
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» plug-in ethanol hybrids, or slaughter in the Mideast for oilfields capped off with global warming...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: beckybond on Jun 13, 2007 5:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HughScott on Jun 13, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Converting food into ethonal is stupid and selfish.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» I'll eat dandilions and grow trout in my swimming pool.
Posted by: HughScott
» Killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for oilfields is far worse - but there are other choices.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Incorrect
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: Incorrect
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: Converting food into ethonal is stupid and selfish.
Posted by: mdruss42
» And futhermore.....
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: solrev on Jun 13, 2007 6:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blincks on Jun 13, 2007 6:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Fidel Castro, rather than dying as the Bushites wished, has written
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: larry278 on Jun 13, 2007 6:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your cure will 'kill' many & create a flock of incurable conditions. Rethink you conclusions.
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» RE: Kitchen Cynic
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: mnolte on Jun 13, 2007 6:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: the realities of modern agriculture.. Wake-up!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: the realities of modern agriculture.. Wake-up!
Posted by: mnolte
» RE: the realities of modern agriculture.. Wake-up!
Posted by: grn1
» maybe
Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: maybe...NO NUCLEAR?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: gdonald on Jun 13, 2007 6:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The scientific approach to any alternative fuel must be complete with the study of all costs of energy to produce the final fuel. Only when all the energy costs of making an alternative fuel are less then the costs of petroleum energy, will we have a true alternative. What we have now is just academics designed to make environmentalists feel good with no regard to how much damage they do outside of their little circles.
It's back to the drawing boards.
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» Clean renewable energy is indeed a huge threat to established petroleum interests
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Everyone seems to forget
Posted by: gdonald
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Posted by: heraclitus on Jun 13, 2007 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Pitting food for the brown against mobility for the white is, to use the old word, wicked. Arguing the clout of the agribusinesses is to say it's possible, not right. And, unless you believe in permanent empire, it's unsustainable as well as wicked.
3. From where I sit there seems to be a concerted effort from the corprastructure to focus attention on anything *but* wind and solar technologies. Makes me wonder what a few years of truly focused and well-funded research might do for these paradigm-upsetting energy sources.
By the way, energy doesn't require molecules. Energy requires energy, and one way to get it is by making complex molecules simple by burning 'em. Only you get more things out than energy and harmless simple molecules.
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» RE: Not a good idea
Posted by: lukehawk
» RE: Not a good idea
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Not a good idea - On the right track, Ein
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Some of the most passionate critics are the fossil fuel lobby - biofuels mean profits loss for them.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: sausage on Jun 13, 2007 7:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cellulosic biofuel crops, especially switchgrass, may be a better alternative. Switchgrass, unlike corn, is a perennial. And it can be burned to produce electricity with no more processing than bailing.
Yet in all the discussion concerning biofuels, alternative energy sources, improved gas mileage standards and so on, the call for decent, inexpensive public transportation is muted and talk of stopping urban sprawl nonexistant.
Out here in the Midwest urban sprawl is a blight that no one is discussing, much less doing anything about. It is far, far easier for a real estate developer to buy up cropland from the aging farmer, whose adult children work, play and live in the city, and build houses than redevelop the inner city.
Another issue that never gets discussed is, when, and if, all these wonderful federal laws are passed to improve automoblie fleet gasoline mileage and use alternative biofuels, say E85, only the wealthy and upper reaches of the middle class will be able to afford such vehicles. The working and non-working poor will be relegated to driving high mileage, heavily polluting junkers.
Look, the national average price for a 2007 Toyota Prius is $22,556. And if I were yet working I'd have one. But I'm disabled, so I have to keep my 1997 Ford Ranger, which I fuel up with 10% ethanol blend, running and in good working order for years to come.
The whole discussion of alterntive fuels has a distinctly white, suburban ring to it. And as the middle class keeping losing economic ground I foresee, in the not too distant future, a time when formerly middle class citizens will find themselves stranded in a suburban hell, out of work and out of gasoline with no viable transportation alternative.
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» RE: And not a word devoted to public transportation
Posted by: mnolte
» RE: And not a word devoted to public transportation
Posted by: sausage
» RE: And not a word devoted to public transportation
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: jim_altman on Jun 13, 2007 7:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The "Inconvenient Truth" is that fossil fuel interests are afraid of biofuels, look at the PR...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: ecoalex on Jun 13, 2007 7:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: thistleblower on Jun 13, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with most of the comments- it's unconscionable to prop up the corn industry when we could be using that arable land to produce food for export to needly populations in this and other countries. I don't know why people think the lowest quality food available is perfectly fine for the poor. I think it's a disgrace. If anyone, the poor need nutritious food, and there is nothing more nutritious than fresh produce.
As for the fuel crisis, I don't give a flying fuck. America needs mass transit, more solar and wind-powered metro areas, bike-friendly neighborhoods and a suburban system that allows for self-sustaining communities: neighborhood gardens and workplace programs that allow the poor to get a leg up. We don't need ethanol to ween us off the petroleum baby bottle. we need to get real about our problems and live up to our potential as linguistic creatures, communicate peacefully and rise above our reptilian programming, which is, sad to say, the norm for this species at the moment. Ooh, big things blow up! Bad men want to hurt Hulk for being free Hulk! Hulk want to hurt them, forever and ever! Is that the best we can do?
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» RE: Let's not forget health concerns
Posted by: lukehawk
» Rubbish - petrodiesel emissions are what cause most of that asthma!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: browta on Jun 13, 2007 7:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having heard negative things to say I thought I would see what I could find out about it, I would rather not make things worse by using it. What I've found is that ethanol from corn represents a net gain in energy of 25% according to the state of Minnesota and as much as 35% if we look to the state of Illinois. Given that there's about a 20% reduction in the amount of energy a gallon of E85 has, that merely means I have to make more stops at the gas station. For example, if I fill up weekly, now I have to fill up 1.2 times a week.
The economic point is awesome! I love that most of the money I'm paying for fuel stays in my state and doesn't go over seas to fund Middle Eastern billionaires and their private 747's jet setting around the world simply because they happen to sit on oil.
That brings up the 2nd point, farmers are not in the business of feeding the world, they are producing a commodity. That means they are finally getting a fair price for their corn crop.
What I'm wondering about is when flex fuel technology will be combined with hybrid technology. Now that would be awesome! I think of the costs of commuting in time - a great portion is spent idling and burning fuel for no reason. With hybrid technology I wouldn't be burning that fuel and would be able to make ethanol do more.
Ultimately economics will force users of corn derived products to find alternatives. That might mean using soybean husks to feed livestock. Heck, the Wall Street Journal had an article detailing how farmers in Pennsylvania were using the reject candy bars from Hershey to feed livestock.
At the very least, as an adopter of the fuel, I'm helping fund the continuing research into alternatives such as prairie grass or switchgrass.
Thank you for the article.
Troy
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» RE: I Absolutely LOVE ... Bio-fuel BS!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» lol!!!
Posted by: sausage
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jun 13, 2007 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do you then deal with the environmental impact of doing all of this if you find some way to do it????
Its not WHAT we are putting in the tanks, folks... its the fact that we are putting anything in tanks to begin with.. much less on the scale we are doing it.
There is no technological solution simply because each new piece of technology gives us more new problems than it solves.
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» RE: Ok...pesticides and fertilizers
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» gee.. what are the odds.... nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Then you go back to old technology - and use clean new technology like solar and wind power
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Then you go back to old technology - and use clean new technology like solar and wind power
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok...Hemp grows anywhere, needs no fertilizer ...
Posted by: Dankhank
» Hemp still requires farming huge swaths of what was once wilderness. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok...Hemp grows anywhere, needs no fertilizer ...
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jun 13, 2007 8:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, I am very disappointed that the author goes on and on but never once mentions the importance of Unitedstatesians changing their environmentally-destructive lifestyles. He never says what a joke supposedly decreasing our petroleum dependence using ethanol (of course he ignores the inputs once again) is, when we continue to selfishly drive gas-guzzling SUVs just to keep up with the Joneses. A society in which it is prestigious to destroy the environment on which future societies will depend is a truly sick society. God bless Amerika (and nobody else!)
We as a society need to diversify our agriculture. Further commitment to monocropping corn is bullshit. We need to quit being glutons and drive less, use public transportation where possible, live closer to work, and when we drive, not drive gas guzzlers that we don't need, just to impress our friends. We need to start giving a damn, plain and simple. Ethanol is just another excuse to continue our glutony, and now all of us will be subsidizing this glutony, oh joy!
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» RE: Blah Blah Blah.....well said
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Well, I'd say the most important thing was to stop using coal, oil and natural gas, period.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: dchabot on Jun 13, 2007 8:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Its just another great myth of the technofix...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: Frank J. on Jun 13, 2007 8:29 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a farmer I'm uncomfortable with the longterm impact of corn based ethanol. While it does cost more in energy terms to produce each gallon of this fuel, we fail to point out that it also takes more gallons to produce a gallon of fossil based gasoline.
I'm largely disappointed with the level of comment in the forum. Instead of addressing the six points Morris raised in his article it seem many are using this as a electronic soap box to reassert useless rhetoric.
I guess I'm eternally optimistic that forums like this will increase the level of debate. Once again I'm disappointed. Don't bother to respond, I'm not reading these anymore
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» RE: Good Article
Posted by: Wichita
» RE: Good Article
Posted by: dmorris
» RE: Good Article - There has been a great discussion
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Good Article
Posted by: heid
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Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 13, 2007 8:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a perfect world where we don't hack down rainforests in Brasil to plant corn for ethanol, Ethanol would be better than petroleum in some ways, but we need to stop burning things for energy. "Burning things" is another way of saying "oxidizing carbons" which can come from hydrocarbons or carbohydrates, and the process of oxidizing carbon is what creates carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide.
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» "Rush" is another way of saying "ground phase"...
Posted by: eddie torres
» Sigh...it's NAFTA and monopolistic practices, not 'ethanol', that is causing that.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: TarryFaster on Jun 13, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In the United States, the loss of irrigation water is making it more difficult for farmers to respond to the future import needs of other countries. In the southern Great Plains, for example, the irrigated area has shrunk by 24 percent since 1980. Leading agricultural states such as Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas are among those most affected by falling water tables.
In a rational world, falling water tables would trigger alarm, setting in motion a series of government actions to reduce demand and reestablish a stable balance with the sustainable supply. Unfortunately, not a single government appears to have done this. Official responses to falling water tables have been consistently belated and grossly inadequate."
Click here to read more.
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» Yep!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Good point.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: It's The Water, Stupid!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Industrial agriculture is a huge water hog - use organic agriculture, mulching and drip irrigation!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jun 13, 2007 9:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "conversation about net energy went on as if nothing new had been added" BECAUSE nothing new had been added regarding corn. David Pimentel never said that since soydiesel and cellulose-based ethanol are less efficient that corn is now efficient. Al contrario! Corn remains a net loss. Corn remains the mainstream monocrop that we the taxpayers are being duped into subsidizing at a much, much, much higher rate than other biofuels. Just because other bio-energy sources are even worse doesn't make corn grain as an energy source good. Corn grain as a fuel source remains a threat to the environment and to those who will pay more for their food so that Unitedstatesians can continue their glutonous lifestyles. Fidel Castro has, with good reason, even argued that this could lead to starvation.
I get the impression the author thinks Alternet readers are as naive as the general population. His argument insinuating that since soydiesel and cellulose-based ethanol are even more energy inefficient than corn grain ethanol we should just ignore the inefficiencies and wastefulness of corn, is very invalid.
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» Pimental is like a global warming skeptic - and ethanol CAN be clean, and Wall Street-free!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: scmp on Jun 13, 2007 9:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Ok... how...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Forget ethanol
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Forget ethanol
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Forget ethanol
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 13, 2007 9:29 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Personally, I find something distasteful about the prospect of being the first nation in history to put food in our gas tanks. My personal distaste, however, shouldn't stop you from being able to develop and market your technology. Just don't depend on taxpayer handouts to make your ideas economically viable; we're already saddled with enough folks on the dole.
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» You don't mind the $30 billion in subsidies that go to fossil fuels? Much more if you count Iraq!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Each topic doesn't require recounting every other negligent or willfull mistake in human history.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: kmart35 on Jun 13, 2007 9:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You can make ethanol with solar/wind power and with organic agriculture... and w/o Wall Street!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» And you can completely ensure "energy independence" if only you...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jun 13, 2007 9:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Article, please!
As one of your few paying customers, I beg you - less time CENSORING, more time writing!
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Posted by: dougii on Jun 13, 2007 9:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: PopRox80 on Jun 13, 2007 9:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It comes down to using less. Of everything. Economic models based on constant upward growth are, by definition in a world with finite resources, unsustainable. Why does this even have to be said? Two other posters before me have commented on it and I didn't see a single response. The fact is, only a complete lifestyle and perceptual change will ensure humanity's survival. I'm sure it's inconceivable for most people, but the only way we'll survive is if we stop placing our species ahead of everything else on earth, and I've found that even liberal, progressive thinkers have a hard time with that concept.
We've been brainwashed from birth to believe that we are the best, the important ones, the "intelligent" creatures--and yet we are destroying the rest of the life inhabiting the planet. This, to me, is the single greatest issue facing us--not Iraq, not losing civil rights, not poverty, not war or genocide or famine. As tragic as those things are, the environmental damage and suffering we've caused truly dwarfs human problems. As paradoxical as it sounds, the way we'll survive is to relegate ourselves to equal importance with everything around us. I guarantee that it would make for a much happier, healthier, sustainable lifestyle.
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» Economic models based on constant upward growth...hmmm
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: What this says to me...
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BeeGee on Jun 13, 2007 9:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a West Virginian, I'd love to see a thriving biodiesel industry instead of a lot of uemployed people sitting on their porches gulping beer and oxycontin.
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» same old questions....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: same old questions....
Posted by: BeeGee
» Don't listen to JoshuaLudd. He's just a useless baldface liar badmouthing real solutions.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Name a single lie I have told. Put up or shut up. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Yes... there... but address my point. How and where do you grow enough anywhere else???
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard - The thing is
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: Bart Thesc on Jun 13, 2007 9:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Net energy arguments aside, ethanol from corn without subsidies doesn't work. The subsidies are not being paid, for the most part, to individuals. The money is going to giant agribusinesses.
If we were serious about using ethanol we could get rid of the sugar and ethanol tariffs and quotas. Brazil would be happy to sell us as much of both as we ask for. Any chemist will tell you that it is hugely more efficient to make ethanol out of sugar than out of corn. As far as the economic and energy security issues go, once we remove the disincentives other sugar producing countries around the globe will immediately ramp up their production to meet the demand.
The price the rest of the world pays for sugar is 8 1/2 cents per pound. Because we are keeping a few sugar growers in Florida happy it costs 21 cents a pound in the US.
What would happen if we took away all the sweetheart deals that cost all of us and fatten a few agribusiness bottom lines? I'd be willing to bet that ADM would survive and the Florida growers would have to find a business that was actually profitable 'without' government handouts.
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Posted by: Bart Thesc on Jun 13, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see.
Get electricity from a power plant to crack molecules and collect the hydrogen spending a fair amount of energy in the process. Cool the hydrogen down to a liquid so it can be transported, spending more energy (what was your air conditioning bill last summer?). Spend fuel getting it to fueling stations (owned by?). Buy a car that's engine can only be repaired by highly trained and well paid specialists under tightly controlled conditions keeping in mind that a small flaw in the engine or fuel system plus some graham crackers and chocolate turns you into a s'more. Drive to a neighborhood fueling station that has 100 times the hydrogen (and 100 times the potential 'fun') as the Hindenburg. Fill 'er up. Turn the hydrogen back into electricity to make the wheels go round and round. Rinse. And repeat.
Vs.
Pull the car into the garage. Plug it into the wall socket which is amazingly connected to the same power plant. If it breaks, call a tow truck or your brother-in-law who's good with his hands.
Hmmm. And who is it that is promoting this hydrogen you speak of??
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» RE: Side note
Posted by: scmp
» Right on - direct electricity is far more energy-efficient (but not from nuclear or fossil fuels!)
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: garry minor on Jun 13, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Legalization and cultivation of hemp as an industrial raw material and food source is vital for the worlds ecology and economy. Currently the federal Government pay's billions of dollars in subsidies, mostly to corporate giants, to not farm their land.
Hempseed is classified by our Government as a stategic food source by executive order 12919, yet denied to the citizens of this country for food. Hempseed is recognized as the single most nutritious thing you can eat. Hempseed as a source of feed for livestock would eliminate the need for hormones and remnants now being blamed for BSE in our population and food chain. BSE causes deposits that build up in the bloodstream and cause mental deterioration. American beef is banned in Europe due to these additives.
Hemp can also be converted to methanol efficiently, yielding 1,000 gallons per acre, and is the most efficient plant source for fuel. Henry Ford built and fueled a car with it. Neither he nor Diesel planned on using petroleum as a fuel source. Unknown to most Americans is that our oil based synthetics originated from cellulose based technology. Hemp can also be used for all paper, plastics, pressed board, textiles, and most building products. Over 25,000 uses and products can currently be made from hemp, from cellophane to dynamite. Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. For thousands of years all ships sails, rope, and clothing were of kaneh fiber. Cannabis grows like crazy from the Equator to the Arctic circle and can be grown on land that is not suitable for corn and other more delicate crops. Cannabis also does not need the fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides required from the other plant sources. In 1938 Popular Science wrote that hemp is the most desirous crop to grow and would be the first billion dollar crop. What happened?
The reason cannabis is illegal has never had anything to do with how it effects you physically. Cannabis is illegal so that billionaires can remain billionaires.
Hemp is now being grown in Canada and throughout the world, but only 15 States are beginning the process here at home. Once again our farmers are at a disadvantage as they fight our system to allow them to compete.
In Canada and Europe cannabis has been clinically proven to actually increase brain cell development and has been found helpful with cancer, Alzheimers, autism, MS, epilepsy, migraine, arthritis, obesity, chronic pain, nausea, glaucoma, Huntingtons, Parkinsons, Tourettes, Crohns disease and more. Yet our Government and FDA continue to ignore it and it's many uses.
Kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp is absolutely a must for the health and vitality of our planet. While we should always look at solar, hydro, or any feasible power source, we should at least use the best plant source we have available for fuel, and that is without a doubt kaneh bosm.
Lets not forget that it was God that instucted Moses to use 250 shekels of kaneh bosm in the oil used to anoint all Kings, Priests, and Prophets, including Jesus! Fuel for the spirit, fuel for the Earth.
The Tree of Life
FOOD, FUEL, SHELTER, MEDICINE, PLEASURE, SPIRITUALITY!
Sorry if I got off track, but it's good for everything, not just fuel.
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» RE: As you can see, people here don't care to hear the truth
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 13, 2007 10:40 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mom'z the word on Jun 13, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patrick was able to do R&D with tax credit incentives offered by the Carter administration during the energy crisis in the 80’s. The process was so successful that a former astronaut who was using alternative fuel sources to fly his twin engine across the country used Patrick’s ethanol for the last leg of his flight. That was over 25 years ago and I am sorry I have forgotten the astronaut’s name. Patrick had a problem with ADM then because they were a monopoly. Even though Patrick’s fermentation process and vacuum still was a complete success when the tax credits stopped his backers pulled out. There was no money to grow on and everything came to a halt.
From our experience I think the problem with using corn for ethanol is not as big a problem as using ADM or any monopoly as the only available source of that ethanol.
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jun 13, 2007 12:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But unfortunately, like so many things, stupidity rules over logic and reason. I wonder how bad things will have to get before ... aww skip it... you know the drill.
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» Again, say no to industrial, fossil fuel based agriculture, not to ethanol
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: hemp doesn't need to be grown like that
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 13, 2007 12:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Donald Kennedy, Science Editor 27 April 2007
".... there is hopeful talk in Silicon Valley about "clean tech," and "biofuels" is the new entrepreneurial mantra there. But the problem is that limiting carbon emissions with biofuels like ethanol is complex terrain, and most proposals turn out to carry external costs."
"Let's start with the explosive growth of a corn ethanol industry in the tallgrass prairies of America's West. This boon for those rural economies succeeds a long history of dual-purpose farm legislation, in which production objectives are mixed with rural welfare goals. Refineries now number well over 100 with more being added rapidly, as farmers expand cultivation into lands formerly set aside for conservation and drop soybeans to make room for corn. Even if corn could yield 30% of the equivalent energy of gasoline (the goal set by the Secretary of Energy), that would create a whole array of collateral distortions. One would be its environmental impact in the United States. Another would be distortion of the price structure of an important grain commodity that is traded in world markets and used in livestock production. Will that make maize or meat more affordable to poor countries that must import it, or to the poor people who need to buy it? Not likely."
"Ethanol derived from sugar cane is better: Growing the plant is energetically less costly, and extraction and fermentation are more efficient. That's what must have interested President Bush during his "Chavez shadow tour" of South America in March. Of course, U.S. companies would love to import this valuable product, which now accounts for a quarter of the ground-transportation fuel in Brazil. Despite such hopes, some senators supporting alcohol-from-corn have helped lay a heavy U.S. protective tariff on Brazilian alcohol derived from sugar. If we got rid of that, it would reduce total carbon emissions, though only if Brazil could expand its production substantially. Is there some deal in progress? Alas, nothing's up."
"Sugar alcohol is better than corn alcohol, but palm oil is even better in your tank (though not in your martini). Its relatively high energy efficiency per unit volume makes it a good biodiesel fuel. Trucks can run entirely on palm oil, although it is usually mixed with conventional fossil fuels. A large-scale effort is under way to convert lands in Indonesia to palm oil plantation agriculture, with plans to double current production in a few years. But again, the effort has a downside. Not only will the needed rainforest destruction (by burning) partly cancel any energy advantage supplied by the palm oil, but the conversion will also threaten orangutans and other endangered species."
"The best course is to abandon this cluttered arena and invest seriously in a direct approach. As Chris Somerville pointed out in this space,* the conversion of cellulosic biomass (corn stover, wood chips) has a far higher potential for fuel production than any of the above biofuels. The challenge is biochemical: Plant lignins occlude the cellulose cell walls; they must be removed, and then the enzymology of cellulose conversion needs to be worked out. The technology is complex. No commercial reactor has yet been built, though six are funded. Some hope has been raised by new commitments, like the $500 million joint project between British Petroleum and the Universities of California and Illinois. Nevertheless, as Somerville notes, the sobering reality is that what the U.S. government spends on all of plant physiology is only one-hundredth of the research budget of the National Institutes of Health. That's far too little for a venture this important."
There you have it.
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» The Berkeley-BP biofuels initiative is also a huge scam
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: xconservative on Jun 13, 2007 12:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: uncleeddie on Jun 13, 2007 1:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» World Bank/IMF/NAFTA scam is more like it - ALL agricultural products are treated like this
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: CarolL on Jun 13, 2007 1:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corn and soybeans farmers out in western IL where I grew up are just salivating over the 3 new ethanol plants that are going in (all in the same county), and everyone else
in those little farm towns are, too. The price of corn
is going up. Land prices have tripled in some areas just in the past year or two. "Oh, boy. More money for all of us. We're going to plant corn right up to the road. We've
already torn down most of the trees and ripped out the
hedgerows, so we're ready to plant one of the most
nutrient-hungry, heavy-fertilizer crops known to man.
"And, instead of rotating crops like we used to, and
like stewards of the land should, we're just going to
plant corn each and every year. We've already
contaminated the well water, so what difference does
it make if we use more chemicals? Sure, we could do
just as well if not better if we planted sugar beets
or switchgrass, but, hey, we only know corn, and we're
not changin' for nobody."
And the kicker: Ethanol doesn't make your car run any
better. It doesn't cut down on emissions -- in some
cases, it emits more pollution than gasoline. It actually burns less efficiently than gasoline by quite a bit, since cars are not engineered to run on ethanol.
Upshot: Yes, we could use slightly less oil/gas if we used more ethanol, but at what cost? Ruined land, contaminated water, more emissions, air pollution from the plant
itself, and who makes the money? The oil companies or Archer Daniels Midland, who, with very few exceptions, are going to own the ethanol plants.
Good for the environment? Good for farmers? I just don't see it.
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» RE: Why I'm against ethanol
Posted by: xconservative
» Banks profit as land lease prices increase & the farmers get screwed over & Big Oil loses profit...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:10 PM
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You might suppose then, knowing no more of me than that, thankfully, many of you your poison and pain long suffered me, that perhaps I have explored and thought a few other things through along the way, these sad decades since.
One of them, early on, is this. You do not hurl your living flesh, our thin layer of topsoil, into the abyss. GONE. Do you believe, as is ever so painfully evident when I access these many kinds of discussions over the decades, that you get 'something for nothing'!? What you remove from that thin layer.. is then gone. For all their intents and purposes who wish to profit by this further rape, short sightedly, if not outright criminally, too soon our life on this planet.. forever. Corpseco has already destroyed and lost to US much of that topsoil. GREATLY MUCH. We are in hazard by this. Tens of thousands of years of a HEALTHY PLANET to build that thin layer supporting and containing it's multitude of organisms, the only Natural Living Environment and Atmosphere Mediating Biomass that rivals that being poisoned by them to extinction in our oceans. And, it cleans up after US, in spite of ourselves. Not to mention feeding us. Need I remind you that we cannot live without it. We must learn, and be damn quick about it at this point, to TEND THIS GARDEN. It is all we have holding us back the edge of this abyss. Do not trade your living flesh for gasoline. Yikes!!
It is always so sad for me, we most being well intelligent enough, but corpseco 'educated and conditioned', that we endlessly, sometimes in near elegance of our fervent arguments this way and that, simply outsmart ourselves.. endlessly so as very carefully wiled and carried out by others. We have a lot of 'help' in this intellectual and spiritual tragedy. Their ILLUSION ~ relentlessly pressed against you from all sides by their all pervasive media monster machine from your very birth, has become your DELUSION. All encompassing. It is all that you know. It is your reality. Your very life as you moment to moment feel and perceive it. The most cynical part of it, for me anyway, is that they take advantage of our human family/tribal nature so that we mindlessly enforce it on each other. FOR THEM. Too many of you anyway. I do not blame you, only in the terrible damage to US all these carefully fed shallownesses now impose upon US. Get a grip. Dammit! Delusion is the clinical 'gold standard' of Insanity. Your deception.. the goal of all the PREDATORY CRIMINALS deeply plagueing US now. They pay huge amounts of money, yours in fact if you but more deeply examined, through that media monster to endlessly deceive and condition you. Frank Zappa in 1963 told US loud and clear.. "it can't happen here". ummm. You factually held from the Simple Truths of it all. Blinded by their flickering tongue of light.
The simple enough and clean technologies have existed for decades, I know this personally, to solve much of this. As I painfully learned long ago, deeply too hazardous to much discuss. Any lights coming on out there... ?
CARBON EMPIRE & PROFIT.
You are, by these and many other means, prevented from actually, factually committing to and physically emplacing in your lives these simple technologies and for the most part, kissing the CARBON CORPSETOCRACY the f#%k OFF!! Stop going in the circles you are going in. There are many among you who are feeding this. Bet on it.
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:16 PM
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You next 'choice' at the Great United Cattle Company trough, is another BIG OIL BOY. The other half of BUSH&GORE co., usaInc. Their game old as the hills, you finally in disgust but not full vision the matter, you most all behave as quail bolting out of one Predatory Criminal's 'game bag'.. straight into his partners. Never seeing the 'crack of dawn'. They snickering.. you dimmo/repug co'ed yet again. DON'T GET GORED!! Do your 'due diligence' and find and behold this man's actual history among US. Nasty. Not at all their CORPSECO 'PR' DECEPTION on you, but who he factually is. Having now ruined their CARBON CORPSETOCRACY 'welcomes' worldwide, it is time now for them to 'co-opt' Alt Ener and profit themselves, not you, by it. Control it. And as always, YOU. GORECO their new 'Poster Boy'. You are being managed.. as any herd of livestock is. Your fate anymore, by your own perfidies of lack of depth and vision in these important matters, very much the same. Witness the 100 year non stop slaughterhouse in our names they carry out with our hands.. we are knee deep in the gris and corpses of babies, children, mothers and fathers honorably defending those families and their homes. Again!! The horror in IRAQ just to mention only, merely (how awful my choice of words) one. OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS! LOOK!! DAMMIT!! BY YOUR ACQUIESCENCE THOUGH ALL, AT YOUR OWN BLOODY FOOTPRINTS THROUGH HISTORY. ALL OF IT FOR CARBON PROFIT. Their PROFIT.. your children serving's blood. The clink of their shackles very near upon you each now. As one who has experienced the horror of their GULAG for a 'thought crime', and understand very deeply from that grotesque immersion, your existence is just that very and unperceived frame of mind and existence NOW. Is your child's school 'under lockdown' today? Some child commit some dreadful 'thought crime'. We are completely SPUN in just 50 years. ENSLAVED NOW IN OUR OWN MINDS. Their 'victory' over US within the Ultimate High Ground we most don't even perceive. PSYOPed to death. Your just reward I suppose if you do not soon take responsibility for all these CRIMES and prosecute them FULLY, THEM ALL, PAINFULLY IF IT MUST BE SO, EVERYONE OF THEM.. ending it. Saving yourselves. Not to mention your HONOR.. your FREEDOM.. your once RIGHTS under our now crushed CONSTITUTION.. your HEALTH.. your HAPPINESS.. your PROSPERITY they have stolen from you. YOUR AND YOUR CHILDREN'S FUTURES.
Ruthlessly and Rightfully prosecuted.. as they in their stolen courts this day, ruthlessly you. Feeding you as nothing more than meat, wholesale for 40 years now into their Prison Industrial Complex.. that too for their great PROFIT.. their fearful spider hole.. the Iron Maw of their GULAG. And all too often.. a bad fate therein.. their venomous needle. To 'correct' your 'thought crimes'.
He's right next to you too; those nice clothes, that 'smile', that 'approved' haircut, that car, that $$$ cell phone, the 'bling', that house, the 'pat' phrases and strategies pressed upon you, that disapproving, now risen today, ominous 'look' if you demur. The 'dime he drops' you don't see. A right proper 'sports minded' guy. I WIN!! ~ you LOSE!! Oh my what a fine and nice and great guy.. wish I was like him.. with that big fat diamond encrusted platinum plastic card. Yours just the plastic axe they sent you in the mail.. your 'fall of the Berlin Wall peace dividend'.. with which you so many have axed away your equities.. your last physical refuges.. into their pockets too. 'Swiped'.. hear their craven laughter somewhere.. those corporate front shadows. His bottomless card. Just part of their 'plan'. Suckers! I WIN!! ~ you LOSE!! The Criminal Predator's Stone Axe taking US down again. With smiles on our faces it near seems. NICELY F#&KED I'D GUESS. (I only recently of deep frustration, took up cursing at age 57, seems to be the only way you 'hear' anymore.)
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:21 PM
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Our Long Recorded History, and Great Wisdom in such matters, is a tragic one of unending cyclical social debacles, the ever repeating destruction by the Criminal Predator's Stone Axe of the Higher Consciousness we are Born To and by Right Spirit And Sacrifice Always Again Raise. Why do we not remember the terrible lessons of our own flesh come before US.. winged to US in our Literatures and Classic Histories. Our Great Wealth of Wisdoms we have been cravenly 'jingo'ed' away from. We as homo sapiens have reached, by their greeds and strategies of Empire&Profit, by our leveraged numbers, by our consumption and permanent toxing of our biosphere, Critical Mass. We cannot go back.. only ahead. And forward for very much longer only if we each seriously examine, and deeply so, within. Who have we each now become. What then we irreducibly now are.. each. What then.. if we do not swiftly regain our grasp of our own true existences, our real and honest personal INTEGRITIES again fiercely held, and firmly so the available and swiftly needed technical/social solutions to these now terrible problems they have imposed upon you.. is your FATE. By your own minds and hands. Get a focking grip.. RIGHTFULLY COMMIT!
THEIR CRIMINAL CORPORATE FRONTS.. ILLUSION~DELUSION..
vs. OUR CONSTITUTION. THEY HAVING NOW DESTROYED AND SUCCEEDING IT AS OUR CORPSETOCRACY. mooo...
Those occulting themselves behind and owning these criminal fronts, long the sole purpose of these 'corporations' slipped into our 'governance', through those 'corporations' have now substituted for US by their deception a 'state' which those 'corporation fronts' own.. and that 'state' now owns you. See your Dictionary. You certainly won't ever actually of that knowledge see them.. occulted behind those criminal corporation fronts from your perception.. 'that nice smile'.
A FREE, FAIR, OPEN SOCIETY CAN REMAIN IN EXISTENCE LONG.. BUT ONLY IF IT'S ENTERPRISES ARE YOURS AND TRANSPARENT TO YOU, AS THEY EMPLOY OUR NATIONAL RESOURCES THERE DEEPLY AFFECTING YOUR LIVES AND FUTURES, AND THOSE ENTERPRISES ARE TOO.. FREE, FAIR, OPEN ENTERPRISES. The deaths by their monopoly monsters of our own once great wealth and security of private enterprises long a fact now. By the criminal deceptions against you by those now 'hiding behind the bush'.. to spring out on you. Take what is yours. DONE DEAL NOW.
I'm sure by this juncture, if I have not suffered the vanity of your bonfire, that you must, some anyway, see your part in that destruction.. yet you do not acknowledge it to each other.. or act against it as you deeply now must.
We just dither on.. as directed. Many not so but fearfully silent.. to them my apologies. But you most...
Our greatest, perhaps only safety lies in their JUST, permanent sequestration in their own GULAG they have stealthed upon you just out of your beknighted view. Your ultimate refuge at greatest depth resides in the clear definitions within your Webster's Unabridged, your best safety. I won't trouble you with the word list. I'm quite sure, on reflection, you will know what you should re examine. We once all knew the correct definitions of those all important tools of our minds and language, our words. We have, by their criminal 'PR' helming of our comprehensions, been washed away from those safe shores.. now adrift.. at the mercy of any ill wind that blows. The slow shifting of our consciousness by their stealthy, careful deceptions. In Websters Our Truths clearly defined for US again. Good bedtime reading.
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:24 PM
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As one who in my turn walked those dark fields of shattered bone prepared to defend at any cost our Freedoms and Our Constitution, won for US at pain and swordpoint by our wiser and certainly more courageous forebears.. you most have betrayed US that served on those fields of terror and Honor for you.. or so we briefly thought they were then.. you in the safety and comfort of your home lives here in America. You beguiled by that flickering, forked tongue of light from their toob into your minds.. your 'remote control' fervently grasped in your hands.. your own petty personal greeds, biases and prejudices calculatedly inflamed by them for your possession of those phoney papah dollahs and that nice pair of heavy leather, rhinestoned, hobnailed boots you so many now wear in your minds. And you impose tragically upon US all. You slowly corrupted and chump changed. We Betrayed. Their private laughter at US and glee as they dance in their soireed shadows now unsurpassed by any of ours in our own more human hopes and joys.
The way ahead is near a certainty if we are to SUCCEED in regaining our FREEDOM, HEALTH, and PROSPERITY. Mother Earth herself.. your own living flesh if you would but grasp it.. to survive this immense insult she now suffers. The Truth.. your choice.
SOLAR DEMOCRACY? .. or CARBON CORPSETOCRACY...
We will all soon 'pay at the pump' for this new tsunami of the blood of innocents we now pour into our tanks. And so pointlessly so.. our 'looking the other way' their greeds and aggrandizements of Empire & Profit Inc.
JUST SAY NO TO THE TEXECUTIONER.
DENY HIM HIS DRUG OF CHOICE.
ARISE!! TAKE BACK OUR CONSTITUTION.. OUR LIVES AND FUTURES WITH IT. Your Right Minds. Your HONOR.
The only thing of which I know that can be planted in our soils.. without much relative energy effort through it's crop cycle or disturbance of those soils.. or unnatural displacement of other life.. without finishing the draining of what little is left of our now poisoned drinking water aquifers to massively slake them.. without horrid pesticides and herbicides (remember Paraquat and 'Agent Orange'? Some of US who served, many no longer with US because of it, Remember and Well. It's just you who choose to 'forget'.).. without more CARBON PROFIT PROSTITUTION OF US ~ vast quantities of carbon petroleum and 'natural' gas converted into excoriating chemical fertilizer topsoil rapers and equipment fuels.. and actually BUILD UP TOPSOIL.. IS HEMP. A NATURAL BORN WINNER GIVEN US BY MOTHER EARTH. What fools we are. Naturally builds back soils in extended rotation for future clean food production. It was the largest crop in the world until it's sudden and ruthless suppression in the 1930's.. clean, providing much employment, enterprise and hugely useful to US.. but, that very large, honest and private industry destroyed by CORPSECO for their enormously consuming CARBON PROFIT, toxic plastic material technologies they cleverly and slickly substituted into our lives for our natural fibers and molded solids, taking with those our private industries we ourselves owned. uummm 'thought crime' anyone? Get it. SWEET MARY JANE. GULAG. Perhaps those who afflict US with their TREASONS UPON US, and it being their own cruel choice in their silencing Saddam their crimes against US all planetwide, should ponder their own 'stretch' of hemp ahead. Get em' high on hemp rope. Teach em' a new dance in their shadows.. a little 'texas shuffle', a little 'texas swing'. The horrid 'penalty' they themselves, such 'law abiding' citizens, set for TREASON. SWEET MARY I'm quite sure appalled by such a use of her wonderful bounty. THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, OUR CONSTITUTION, JUSTICE RIGHTFULLY SERVED.
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SEEK THE TRUTH. LIVE BY IT. BE FREE.
Some men's deeper truths ascertained.. are others deepest fears.. their criminalities of deceptions against you brought into the light.
Our Basic Human Truths are always very simple.. until we are 'led' away from them. The 'devil truly in their details'.
NO TOPSOIL FOR GASOLINE!! DON'T BURN YOUR OWN FLESH.
You have little time now to waste.
Bobby Baxter ~ Veteran & Marijuana Felon
copy/paste/send
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» Good agricultural processes preserve and build topsoil - using Fossil Fool-Free Agriculture.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Good agricultural processes preserve and build topsoil - using Fossil Fool-Free Agriculture.
Posted by: bobjbax
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. While big agriculture will reap most of the profits of additional production, at least some family and small farmers are benefiting from it. When you consider they have been hit hard over the last few decades by prices held down by government subsidies and big agricultures dumping and price manipulation schemes, what is so bad about this?
2. The starving people of this world are a product of the economic and political system. By farmers planting additional corn on otherwise unused land, they are not harming the world's poor or starving. When you were a kid and your mother told you to eat everything on your plate because of starving kids in India, you might have listened. But, your eating everything on your plate never fed another hungry kid in India. It's the same type of thing with farmers planting additional corn.
3. Conservation is of course needed and desirable. But, America has very little mass transit and the world demand for energy is steadily increasing. Ethanol will never be a total or even really much of a partial solution, but we have to start somewhere and work with what we have.
So, I do believe on balance Ethanol has some positives going for it. Important things to consider, I believe, in a balanced argument.
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Posted by: DeAnander on Jun 13, 2007 5:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tell it to the poor of Mexico who have been protesting in the streets as the price of corn for tortillas rose dramatically due to the ethanol bubble... what farmers plant -- guided by warped subsidies -- is another policy decision from the same political and financial mafia that keeps the starving billions hungry.
as to farmers are not in the business of feeding the world -- hello? then who is? little green men from outer space? farming is what feeds the world, period. unless of course we decide that we would rather feed the automobiles and airplanes enjoyed on a regular basis by -- at most -- about 15 percent of the world population.
also I would point out that Brazil realises its amazing sugar cane productivity by liquidating millennia-old topsoil from recently-clearcut rainforest. once that abused soil is exhausted -- and it won't take long -- the wonderful returns on Brazilian sugar cane plantations will diminish, and clearcutting the rainforest will assist in further desertifying the S American continent, disrupting the rainfall patterns, etc. it's a one-time bonanza just like the oil fields, only less energy-dense. soil mining, not sustainable.
the energy "requirements" of a lazy-ass car-based culture and a clinically insane growth-obsessed economic theory exceed the total annual floral and faunal productivity of the planet. fossil fuel has been the bandaid that papered over this large-ish gap between income and expenditure -- i.e. spending the trust fund rather than living safely on the interest. now the trust fund is almost all gone, and the top dog nations have become just like spoilt irresponsible trustifarian kids -- unfit to survive in the real world, unable to accept the necessity for serious and difficult changes of lifestyle. whining and kicking and insisting that the Energy Fairy is gonna appear in a puff of (green and harmless) smoke and save us without our having to change in any way.
it hs been written that for a scientific paradigm to change, all those who wholeheartedly believed in the old paradigm have to die. this is not a cheerful reflection from where I sit. I found this article disingenuous and desperate -- one more true believer recites the Creed of the Energy Fairy,
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» It's NAFTA that drove farmers off the land and jacked up prices, not ethanol...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 13, 2007 6:11 PM
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Now we've got the left attacking global warming as well.
The left and the right in the United States are, by and large, just the sock puppets of the corporate, autocractic elite - who like to see Exxon's $40 billion dollar profit margins come rolling into their bank accounts.
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» RE: thanol and Biodiesel are a serious threat to Big Oil's profit margins!
Posted by: DeAnander
» The problem there is industrial, fossil fueled agriculture - not 'ethanol'
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: The problem there is "agriculture" too...
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 13, 2007 10:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: To the posters who posted hemp as a better idea, I say thank you and keep fighting.
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: jparsons on Jun 13, 2007 11:46 PM
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that the Western world chows down on daily, or hourly.
But I don't see the cultural stampede to vegetarianism yet. When oh when will that happen? Too late, I expect.
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Posted by: lonpine on Jun 14, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
6. Support performance, not prescriptive standards.
Agreed! Bravo! Here are a set of performance standards proposed by The Natural Step- just one of many ideas out there.
(i) Add nothing, net, to the earth's crust.
(ii) Take nothing, net, from the earth's crust.
(iii) Do nothing to harm the biosphere's regenerative capacity.
(iv) Insure social equity. (ie, share.)
Find what technologies do this, and promote them.
5. ...The key is local ownership of biorefineries.
Ha- good luck with that. At the beginning of the 20th c. there were how many different oil companies, compared to the beginning of the 21st c.? This raises an interesting question. You'd think Exxon-Mobil, the largest petroleum miner and processor in the world, would have a good idea of how much oil there really is left in the ground, and what the state of demand will be in the next few decades. If they saw the writing on the wall, wouldn't they start investing in the next liquid energy source- are they buying up farms and biorefineries...? I don't know- but that would be something to look out for, IMO.
4. Electricity, not biofuels, will be the primary energy source for an oil-free and sustainable transportation system.
Fair enough. Just figure out a renewable way to make both.
3. Corn is a transitional energy feedstock, but it has played a crucial role in creating the infrastructure for a carbohydrate economy.
It seems dubious to rely on a heavily susbsidized, fossil fuel intensive crop to kickstart this infrastructure. Why not get it right to begin with? Here's an ex. (tho' not meant to promote nuclear power): Nukes were based on submarine technology (light water reactors), when potentially safer designs (graphite air cooled), made for terrestrial use and ill-suited to the submarine, were overlooked. Result? we're stuck with LWRs, which inherently are less safe than other designs.
2. Wind and sunlight can only be harnessed for some form of energy (thermal, mechanical, electrical). Plants, on the other hand, can be used for many purposes...
And so? Remember, before the Faber process which brought us chemical fertilizer (and munitions), agriculture had been solar powered for all of human history.
1. Sustainability requires molecules....
What exactly is the implication of this statement? Doesn't everything require molecules? Doesn't an unsustainable industrial economy rely on molecules?
The key behind sustainability, by most definitions, is that we need to stop mining our energy and start harvesting it, the idea being that the latter is a limited resource that will run out, and the latter is renewable. The only renewable energy we have is solar energy, which comes to us as sunlight, wind, wave energy, ocean thermal energy, to name a few. We might lump in tidal energy which comes from the motion of the earth and moon around the sun. This is what we need to switch to- from being miners to being harvesters.
For better and for worse, we've gotten so populous and technologically sophisticated that we've turned the world into a spaceship. So instead of thinking of What Would Jesus Do, let's think, What Would an Astronaut Do? How would she recycle her waste? Where would she get her energy? Her food?
That's what we've become- astronauts eating through our last stores of food, our spaceship getting cluttered with garbage. And we will end up exactly where we're headed unless we change course.
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» RE: "Just figure out a renewable way to make both."
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Jun 14, 2007 9:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Compare that to the electric motor pushing +95% efficiency, zero emissions, no gears, regenerative breaking, and near max torque off the line.
With the new breakthroughs in battery technology, they will last 20+ years, with no memory, and charge in minutes. There is a reason why all these energy companies are buying up nuclear like mad.
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» And then you still have all the problems of where the electricity comes from...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: The problem isn't the fuel, its the goddamn internal combustion engine
Posted by: channing
» RE: The problem isn't the fuel, its the goddamn internal combustion engine
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: "there is still a place for IC engines (diesel) in agricultural"
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: johndoraemi on Jun 14, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by Prof. C. Ford Runge and Prof. Benjamin Senauer
Corn's net energy is NOT worth the food crops and topsoil it DISPLACES.
The author says nothing about reducing energy usage, lowering the amount of waste, miles driven, and associated standards of conservation.
His focus is on producing more and more from biofuels, which in a market based system (corrupted as it is by government subsidies) will reward rich energy users at the expense of poor starving humans.
This is a moral and ethical issue above all else.
We must address overpopulation as well as waste and inefficiency. And we must do it fast.
Corn is simply not a good place to put a huge social investment in energy. That's a scientific analysis of its energy properties, period. If other crops are far more net energy rich, then they should be looked at.
Corn is the cash crop because powerful interests are encouraged to grow it due to subsidies. This can and should change.
Nothing in the above article changes my mind on that core issue.
Crimes of the State Blog
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» RE: Author is knowledgeable, but... WRONG about alternatives
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: channing on Jun 14, 2007 1:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any and EVERY solution based on the internal combustion engine is a failure-in-progress. As "ambrose pare" pointed out in the post above, this dinosaur-technology has long been outdated in its ability to improve significantly energy-efficiency, it simply is not possible to get several hundred friction-producing components to match the efficiency of the several DOZEN required in electric motor drives, period.
The combustion engine based auto industry, especially in the US, is stuck in facilitating ANY and ALL combustion-fuel processes/"alternatives" to keep their trillion dollar ghost alive. Exhaust systems, emissions systems, fuel tanks, injection systems, massive cast-iron/aluminum casings, high-precision internal components and bearings galore, plus cooling systems and oil systems all simply disappear with electric motor drives. And the efficiencies are topped off with infinitely more responsive control, torque and maximum speed... just check out the all-electric MacClaren, though currently expensive, the performance "ceiling" is only being limited now by such things as aerodynamics, gravity and the pure physics of "round tires and flat planes".
More to the point of the article, how do we get that electricity INTO the car? This also turns out to be quite simple, though massive, if not global in scale:
http://www.trecers.net/downloads/deserts_en.pdf
This research out of Germany has already determined that with CURRENTLY EXISTING AND PROVEN TECHNOLOGY, the Earth's DESERTS have the potential to deliver over 700 TIMES THE CURRENT ENERGY CONSUMPTION OF THE ENTIRE PLANET using a grid of CSA's, Concentrated Solar Arrays, connected together by High Tension Lines! We obviously would only need to develop this concept to 1/700th that scale, but in the US, such an undertaking would be roughly equivalent to building a new national oil and gas network, big, but we've already proven we're capable.
Such a grid would replace gas stations, the combustion engine, your natural gas pipelines, your gas/oil furnace, water heater, stoves and their hazards. Would involves the hiring of literally 10's of MILLIONS of new sustainable-economy JOBS, which in turn would solve the historically high "career discontent" rate. This would require NO FARM LAND, no Water Table Depletion, and bring to "near-zero" our CO2 output... without changing any current "comforts" of home.
BTW, this technology is NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE to WIND, the #2 best alternative energy source.
Cool the deserts, slow down the winds, make all industry quieter, more agile, and efficient... Improve the Planet, for God's sake!
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» RE: COMBUSTION ENGINE IS THE ENEMY OF PROGRESS
Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: and political will comes with understanding
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: scb on Jun 14, 2007 4:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, it does deserve a few clarifications. We here at Working Assets agree that bio-fuels, including ethanol, will play a significant role in our energy future if we are to address global warming and our current dependence on fossil fuels. What our action specifically called for was an end to the subsidies that corn based ethanol currently enjoys. Morris acknowledges that corn is a transitional feedstock and that cellulose based bio-fuels are the wave of the future. So, if we are on the verge of a cellulosic fuel future, why continue to subsidize the old? If subsidies are intended to help new technologies gain a competitive footing with established ones, why not support the emerging cellulose-based ethanol market?
I grew up in Illinois, where my grandparents were corn and bean farmers. And, I attended the University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana where they built the undergraduate library underground so as not to shade the corn in the famed Morrow Plots (established in 1876). Yet, even in Illinois, the cellulosic revolution is taking shape.
My alma mater is now partnering with University of California Berkeley on a $500 million Energy Biosciences Institute funded by none other that British oil behemoth BP. UIUC’s extension staff is working with farmers to move scientific findings on growing cellulose based energy feed stocks – like the tropical grass miscanthus – into the field. If BP is investing hundreds of millions of dollars in researching cellulosic bio-fuel crops, why should the feds continue to subsidize corn based ethanol?
We look forward to continuing the conversation. Oh, and David, why don't you upgrade to Working Assets Wireless? Land lines are going the way of the gasoline powered engine...
Sarah Clusen Buecher
Citizen Action Manager
Working Assets
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Posted by: Squarehead on Jun 14, 2007 5:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is obviously very well informed.. BUT in the 'warmed' world that is starting to emerge, where China is losing nearly 260,000 Hectares (~ 620,000 acres) per annum of productive agricultural land to desertification & urbanisation (about half each), where the Murray Darling basin (Australia) is suffering the most castastrophic drought in its history, where the Aral Sea (Russia- Kazahkstan ?) is the disaster it is, how can we plan to use food growing land for fuel crops? (Unless you're 'friends of George' oil- financial interests, in which case you need the compasssion/ common sense brain transplant)
I learn recently (well it was news to me) that my assumption that extra heat encouraged growth was somewhat naive... Most of our food plant growth is only within a relatively narrow soil temperatue range of ~ 60 fahrenheit to 85 degrees fahrenheit. Think about it.
So I think we are going to have MAJOR problems within the next 20 years. One of the immediate outcomes of these problems is going to be population movement... In Europe, I expect we will have the choice to let in ~ 200 – 500 million Africans, OR .. what? Machine guns? I am happy that I'd prefer (almost) open borders, and try to work round the problems. I think you in USA will be faced with the same problem.. but you can be lateral, it's not all negative.
You, a nation of immigrants, are now feeling very isolationist.. Unrealistic. You need new, young, people, to fuel your industry, your healthcare, your economy. They are going to be brown in skin colour, you should welcome it.
I believe that there is NOT an energy- fuel shortage, there is an imagination shortage. In most of continental US you have > 800 watts of energy, thermal, per square metre, for 8 – 10 hours every day THAT IS A LOT OF ENERGY. Get lateral, folks.
BTW I would draw Alternet readers attention to a small research spin-off of VAG (Volkswagen), Enginion AS, who were in Berlin (Germany). They made a small steam rotary engine, OP ~ 110 horse-power, (very usable) used in a pre-production experiment in the VW 'Rabbit & the Skoda 'Fabia'. Sounded great. They now seem to have closed up shop...
Why? Who bought them? Or persuaded VAG to close them down?
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Posted by: Jeanne on Jun 14, 2007 9:55 PM
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Posted by: Nedtheredhead on Jun 16, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We currently have 10% ethanol and petrol mix available in most Aussie states, all made from sugar cane. Three states are in the process of making 10% ethanol mandatory by the end of this year, and most states will have fallen inline within five years. The northern areas of Australia, from mid north coast NSW to the tip of Queensland on the eastern coast produces sugar cane. There are no farm subsidies in Australia, they were stopped in the 1970's. A few years ago now, Australia signed a free trade agreement with the US. Though we tried hard to have it included, the US would not include our sugar. The sugar cane farmers got together and lobbied the Aussie government and big sugar refiners such a CSR to expand their alcohol producing distilleries to make vehicle friendly ethanol. Though slow at first, it didn't take long for Aussies to realise the advantage of running this blended fuel. CSR are now looking to build new distillery, and an existing one in Sarina is about to triple its already high production of ethanol.
The beauty of this industry is the technology already exists for the making of alcohol, of which ethanol is just a poorer grad. The percentage of extra energy required is minimal to what is already being used, and the actual production of sugar cane, which is already established, also means minimal expansion requirements overall. Water, a very scarce commodity in Australia, is not a problem as the sugar cane is grown in the monsoonal belt of the country. Ground requirements, particularly fertilizer, is had from the dunder, or waste from sugar production, and machinery costs are already factored in. The mill processors already have cane trams criss crossing most of Queensland, and there is a very good chance many of these could be electric driven within ten years.
There were a few scare rumours put out that ethanol would damage cars, but once the petrol companies could see the price of unleaded petrol was putting some of their service stations out of business, they soon squashed these rumours. Most probably their own rumours in the first place.
We are now seeing farm land, which would have been destined to weeds and desolation, thanks to the US trade deal, thriving. The quality of the sugar cane doesn't have to be that high, so the poor quality cane, once destined for burning, is now shipped off to the mill as a viable resource.
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Posted by: sasquuatch55 on Jun 16, 2007 10:45 AM
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» RE: There is no one solution to independence...no combustion!
Posted by: robbrian
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Jun 18, 2007 7:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by letting people tell us they 'have a burning resource' for us?
You know, there is a OneStop Solution:
STOP BURNING SHIT, PEOPLE.
if each of us put solar panels on our roofs, or used photovoltaic paint to create our OWN, DISTRIBUTED systems of energy. Hell, start small, get a wee portable one for all your rechargeable electronic toys.
THINK ABOUT IT: why do we have to wait to be SOLD a solution? create YOUR OWN SOLUTIONS to YOUR OWN PROBLEMS & CONDITIONS.
Our GrandParents weren't so flaccid, so why are we... more ignorant?
**SNAP OUT OF IT**
Spread Love...
... but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
~~~
"we, two, form a multitude" ~ Ovid
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Posted by: codyschank on Jun 26, 2007 9:58 AM
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Posted by: Joe on Jul 12, 2007 9:41 PM
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Posted by: Darkly on Jun 13, 2007 1:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even worse it drives up the price of all the other foods. Instead of this food going to your grocery store it goes into gasoline. The government encourages this scam by offering government substities making cotton, carrot and other farmers switch to corn for the increase in profit which raises the price of all other farmed goods to.
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» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: EncinoM
» ur both wrong
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: ur both wrong ...oh really
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» You have to reform industrial agriculture - make it fossil fuel-free
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: hilaryuk
» The real answer: STOP DRIVING!!! Eat local seasonal foods!! Think differently!!!
Posted by: alternetleslie
» RE: The real answer: STOP DRIVING!!! Eat local seasonal foods!! Think differently!!!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Ethanol output to input ratio is 1.34 to 1 vs. crude range which is 10-1 up to 300-1
Posted by: messedup
» RE: thanol output to input ratio is 1.34 to 1 vs. crude range which is 10-1 up to 300-1
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Actually, oil comes from plant decomposition.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» ETHANOL IS NO SOLUTION, NOT EVEN A STOP GAP
Posted by: edgar_michel
» It will also cut into the profit margins of Big Oil! Oh NO!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: THANOL IS NO SOLUTION - Brazil has much cheaper labor
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Cook the numbers any way you want - energy budgets are PR fun.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: symcokid
» Sugar!
Posted by: jasonk
» RE: Sugar! - And they are destroying the Amazonian rain forest to grow the cane!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: channing
» Solar Power - No War Required
Posted by: Pile
» RE: thanol is a negative source of energy!
Posted by: robbrian
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Jun 13, 2007 3:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reasons for not persuing an ethanol future are like the reasons for not doing coal liquifaction, these reasons being serious enough to push wind and solar as a real means of addressing two large problems for now and the future: a clean environment and energy.
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» RE: Pfft! Harness the wind produced in this debate!
Posted by: gazooks
» Could you elaborate
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Could you elaborate
Posted by: gazooks
» Thanks!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Think Small and Unobtrusive
Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: Think Small and Unobtrusive - I like the way you think, but
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Think Small and Unobtrusive - I like the way you think, but
Posted by: edgar_michel
» No, what's needed is reform of the entire agricultural system to make it fossil fuel-free.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: No, what's needed is reform of the entire agricultural system to make it fossil fuel-free.
Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: Pfft!... exactly...
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: EinMD on Jun 13, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So I ended up with a home I could afford that's forty fricken miles away from my work. Because that was what I could afford that wasn't in a neighborhood where I had to worry if my kid was going to get shot in a driveby on the way home. I didn't take that house because I wanted to waste gas. I took that home because I was tired of flushing money down the toilet in a crappy ass 1 bedroom apartment for $800 a month.
So don't give me that work closer to home mansion in the burbs bullshit. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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» RE: We love corn...
Posted by: edgar_michel
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Jun 13, 2007 2:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good idea! How about a mileage tax, factored by the weight of the vehicle, for non-commercial travel.
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» RE: Mileage Tax - How about viable public transportation first
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: socialpsych on Jun 13, 2007 3:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You hit the nail on the head!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: You hit the nail on the head!
Posted by: socialpsych
» Nobody want to talk about Give Birth Control a Chance
Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: Give Birth Control a Chance
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Give Birth Control a Chance - burning a rainforest and replacing
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Bull's Eye!!
Posted by: Sparks56
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Posted by: uluro on Jun 13, 2007 3:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not as wacky as killing people in order to steal their oilfields.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Not as wacky as killing people in order to steal their oilfields.
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: xtiml on Jun 13, 2007 4:30 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: xtiml on Jun 13, 2007 4:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xtiml Right ON!!
Posted by: Dankhank
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Posted by: collery on Jun 13, 2007 4:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you ever considered ways of using less of everything, or that you have been squandering the world's resources?
You make a lot of interesting points, one about farmers producing primary goods. But there are entire countries that produce mainly primary goods for rich countries. US farmers are subsidised but many unsubsidised poorer countries can't compete, even though they produce cheap primary goods for the US and other rich countries.
To make matters worse, or perhaps as a sick joke, the US lectures these poorer countries on free trade!
The problem is not just water, food, resource and land shortage and sustainability, the problem is also distribution, access and affordability. There may well be plenty of all these resources but the world's population don't have equal access to them.
You make vague, sweeping mentions of 'global' things but do you really recognise that the US is just one country and the whole world is many times bigger than the US? Of course, the US looks a lot bigger when you look at it in terms of consumption, but that is the very problem, OVER-CONSUMPTION.
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Posted by: chomsky on Jun 13, 2007 5:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Butanol, an alcohol produced by fermentation of sugars and cellulose, would be much better suited to replace gasoline then ethanol.
It's non-corrosive, unlike ethanol.
Butanols energy density is much closer to gasoline. Which means a much less drop in fuel efficiency.
It can be blended much more easily with gasoline.
And it's not hydrophilic, also unlike ethanol. Ethanols absorption of water makes for a problem with engines.
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» So why don't we use this source of
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: mnlefty on Jun 13, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: how is it not about net energy?
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: pgj1949 on Jun 13, 2007 5:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are, in our use of energy, the most profligate people in the world. Filling the tanks of our Humvees with corn-based ethanol would provide the hungry multitudes of the world with yet another image of our indifference to whether or not they even survive.
Feeding people should come before running cars.
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» plug-in ethanol hybrids, or slaughter in the Mideast for oilfields capped off with global warming...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: beckybond on Jun 13, 2007 5:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HughScott on Jun 13, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Converting food into ethonal is stupid and selfish.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» I'll eat dandilions and grow trout in my swimming pool.
Posted by: HughScott
» Killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for oilfields is far worse - but there are other choices.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Incorrect
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: Incorrect
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: Converting food into ethonal is stupid and selfish.
Posted by: mdruss42
» And futhermore.....
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: solrev on Jun 13, 2007 6:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blincks on Jun 13, 2007 6:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Fidel Castro, rather than dying as the Bushites wished, has written
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: larry278 on Jun 13, 2007 6:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your cure will 'kill' many & create a flock of incurable conditions. Rethink you conclusions.
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» RE: Kitchen Cynic
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: mnolte on Jun 13, 2007 6:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: the realities of modern agriculture.. Wake-up!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: the realities of modern agriculture.. Wake-up!
Posted by: mnolte
» RE: the realities of modern agriculture.. Wake-up!
Posted by: grn1
» maybe
Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: maybe...NO NUCLEAR?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: gdonald on Jun 13, 2007 6:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The scientific approach to any alternative fuel must be complete with the study of all costs of energy to produce the final fuel. Only when all the energy costs of making an alternative fuel are less then the costs of petroleum energy, will we have a true alternative. What we have now is just academics designed to make environmentalists feel good with no regard to how much damage they do outside of their little circles.
It's back to the drawing boards.
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» Clean renewable energy is indeed a huge threat to established petroleum interests
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Everyone seems to forget
Posted by: gdonald
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Posted by: heraclitus on Jun 13, 2007 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Pitting food for the brown against mobility for the white is, to use the old word, wicked. Arguing the clout of the agribusinesses is to say it's possible, not right. And, unless you believe in permanent empire, it's unsustainable as well as wicked.
3. From where I sit there seems to be a concerted effort from the corprastructure to focus attention on anything *but* wind and solar technologies. Makes me wonder what a few years of truly focused and well-funded research might do for these paradigm-upsetting energy sources.
By the way, energy doesn't require molecules. Energy requires energy, and one way to get it is by making complex molecules simple by burning 'em. Only you get more things out than energy and harmless simple molecules.
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» RE: Not a good idea
Posted by: lukehawk
» RE: Not a good idea
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Not a good idea - On the right track, Ein
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Some of the most passionate critics are the fossil fuel lobby - biofuels mean profits loss for them.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: sausage on Jun 13, 2007 7:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cellulosic biofuel crops, especially switchgrass, may be a better alternative. Switchgrass, unlike corn, is a perennial. And it can be burned to produce electricity with no more processing than bailing.
Yet in all the discussion concerning biofuels, alternative energy sources, improved gas mileage standards and so on, the call for decent, inexpensive public transportation is muted and talk of stopping urban sprawl nonexistant.
Out here in the Midwest urban sprawl is a blight that no one is discussing, much less doing anything about. It is far, far easier for a real estate developer to buy up cropland from the aging farmer, whose adult children work, play and live in the city, and build houses than redevelop the inner city.
Another issue that never gets discussed is, when, and if, all these wonderful federal laws are passed to improve automoblie fleet gasoline mileage and use alternative biofuels, say E85, only the wealthy and upper reaches of the middle class will be able to afford such vehicles. The working and non-working poor will be relegated to driving high mileage, heavily polluting junkers.
Look, the national average price for a 2007 Toyota Prius is $22,556. And if I were yet working I'd have one. But I'm disabled, so I have to keep my 1997 Ford Ranger, which I fuel up with 10% ethanol blend, running and in good working order for years to come.
The whole discussion of alterntive fuels has a distinctly white, suburban ring to it. And as the middle class keeping losing economic ground I foresee, in the not too distant future, a time when formerly middle class citizens will find themselves stranded in a suburban hell, out of work and out of gasoline with no viable transportation alternative.
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» RE: And not a word devoted to public transportation
Posted by: mnolte
» RE: And not a word devoted to public transportation
Posted by: sausage
» RE: And not a word devoted to public transportation
Posted by: EinMD
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Posted by: jim_altman on Jun 13, 2007 7:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The "Inconvenient Truth" is that fossil fuel interests are afraid of biofuels, look at the PR...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: ecoalex on Jun 13, 2007 7:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: thistleblower on Jun 13, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with most of the comments- it's unconscionable to prop up the corn industry when we could be using that arable land to produce food for export to needly populations in this and other countries. I don't know why people think the lowest quality food available is perfectly fine for the poor. I think it's a disgrace. If anyone, the poor need nutritious food, and there is nothing more nutritious than fresh produce.
As for the fuel crisis, I don't give a flying fuck. America needs mass transit, more solar and wind-powered metro areas, bike-friendly neighborhoods and a suburban system that allows for self-sustaining communities: neighborhood gardens and workplace programs that allow the poor to get a leg up. We don't need ethanol to ween us off the petroleum baby bottle. we need to get real about our problems and live up to our potential as linguistic creatures, communicate peacefully and rise above our reptilian programming, which is, sad to say, the norm for this species at the moment. Ooh, big things blow up! Bad men want to hurt Hulk for being free Hulk! Hulk want to hurt them, forever and ever! Is that the best we can do?
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» RE: Let's not forget health concerns
Posted by: lukehawk
» Rubbish - petrodiesel emissions are what cause most of that asthma!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: browta on Jun 13, 2007 7:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having heard negative things to say I thought I would see what I could find out about it, I would rather not make things worse by using it. What I've found is that ethanol from corn represents a net gain in energy of 25% according to the state of Minnesota and as much as 35% if we look to the state of Illinois. Given that there's about a 20% reduction in the amount of energy a gallon of E85 has, that merely means I have to make more stops at the gas station. For example, if I fill up weekly, now I have to fill up 1.2 times a week.
The economic point is awesome! I love that most of the money I'm paying for fuel stays in my state and doesn't go over seas to fund Middle Eastern billionaires and their private 747's jet setting around the world simply because they happen to sit on oil.
That brings up the 2nd point, farmers are not in the business of feeding the world, they are producing a commodity. That means they are finally getting a fair price for their corn crop.
What I'm wondering about is when flex fuel technology will be combined with hybrid technology. Now that would be awesome! I think of the costs of commuting in time - a great portion is spent idling and burning fuel for no reason. With hybrid technology I wouldn't be burning that fuel and would be able to make ethanol do more.
Ultimately economics will force users of corn derived products to find alternatives. That might mean using soybean husks to feed livestock. Heck, the Wall Street Journal had an article detailing how farmers in Pennsylvania were using the reject candy bars from Hershey to feed livestock.
At the very least, as an adopter of the fuel, I'm helping fund the continuing research into alternatives such as prairie grass or switchgrass.
Thank you for the article.
Troy
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» RE: I Absolutely LOVE ... Bio-fuel BS!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» lol!!!
Posted by: sausage
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jun 13, 2007 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do you then deal with the environmental impact of doing all of this if you find some way to do it????
Its not WHAT we are putting in the tanks, folks... its the fact that we are putting anything in tanks to begin with.. much less on the scale we are doing it.
There is no technological solution simply because each new piece of technology gives us more new problems than it solves.
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» RE: Ok...pesticides and fertilizers
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» gee.. what are the odds.... nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Then you go back to old technology - and use clean new technology like solar and wind power
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Then you go back to old technology - and use clean new technology like solar and wind power
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok...Hemp grows anywhere, needs no fertilizer ...
Posted by: Dankhank
» Hemp still requires farming huge swaths of what was once wilderness. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok...Hemp grows anywhere, needs no fertilizer ...
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jun 13, 2007 8:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, I am very disappointed that the author goes on and on but never once mentions the importance of Unitedstatesians changing their environmentally-destructive lifestyles. He never says what a joke supposedly decreasing our petroleum dependence using ethanol (of course he ignores the inputs once again) is, when we continue to selfishly drive gas-guzzling SUVs just to keep up with the Joneses. A society in which it is prestigious to destroy the environment on which future societies will depend is a truly sick society. God bless Amerika (and nobody else!)
We as a society need to diversify our agriculture. Further commitment to monocropping corn is bullshit. We need to quit being glutons and drive less, use public transportation where possible, live closer to work, and when we drive, not drive gas guzzlers that we don't need, just to impress our friends. We need to start giving a damn, plain and simple. Ethanol is just another excuse to continue our glutony, and now all of us will be subsidizing this glutony, oh joy!
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» RE: Blah Blah Blah.....well said
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Well, I'd say the most important thing was to stop using coal, oil and natural gas, period.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: dchabot on Jun 13, 2007 8:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Its just another great myth of the technofix...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: Frank J. on Jun 13, 2007 8:29 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a farmer I'm uncomfortable with the longterm impact of corn based ethanol. While it does cost more in energy terms to produce each gallon of this fuel, we fail to point out that it also takes more gallons to produce a gallon of fossil based gasoline.
I'm largely disappointed with the level of comment in the forum. Instead of addressing the six points Morris raised in his article it seem many are using this as a electronic soap box to reassert useless rhetoric.
I guess I'm eternally optimistic that forums like this will increase the level of debate. Once again I'm disappointed. Don't bother to respond, I'm not reading these anymore
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» RE: Good Article
Posted by: Wichita
» RE: Good Article
Posted by: dmorris
» RE: Good Article - There has been a great discussion
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Good Article
Posted by: heid
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Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 13, 2007 8:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a perfect world where we don't hack down rainforests in Brasil to plant corn for ethanol, Ethanol would be better than petroleum in some ways, but we need to stop burning things for energy. "Burning things" is another way of saying "oxidizing carbons" which can come from hydrocarbons or carbohydrates, and the process of oxidizing carbon is what creates carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide.
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» "Rush" is another way of saying "ground phase"...
Posted by: eddie torres
» Sigh...it's NAFTA and monopolistic practices, not 'ethanol', that is causing that.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: TarryFaster on Jun 13, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In the United States, the loss of irrigation water is making it more difficult for farmers to respond to the future import needs of other countries. In the southern Great Plains, for example, the irrigated area has shrunk by 24 percent since 1980. Leading agricultural states such as Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas are among those most affected by falling water tables.
In a rational world, falling water tables would trigger alarm, setting in motion a series of government actions to reduce demand and reestablish a stable balance with the sustainable supply. Unfortunately, not a single government appears to have done this. Official responses to falling water tables have been consistently belated and grossly inadequate."
Click here to read more.
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» Yep!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Good point.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: It's The Water, Stupid!
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Industrial agriculture is a huge water hog - use organic agriculture, mulching and drip irrigation!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jun 13, 2007 9:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "conversation about net energy went on as if nothing new had been added" BECAUSE nothing new had been added regarding corn. David Pimentel never said that since soydiesel and cellulose-based ethanol are less efficient that corn is now efficient. Al contrario! Corn remains a net loss. Corn remains the mainstream monocrop that we the taxpayers are being duped into subsidizing at a much, much, much higher rate than other biofuels. Just because other bio-energy sources are even worse doesn't make corn grain as an energy source good. Corn grain as a fuel source remains a threat to the environment and to those who will pay more for their food so that Unitedstatesians can continue their glutonous lifestyles. Fidel Castro has, with good reason, even argued that this could lead to starvation.
I get the impression the author thinks Alternet readers are as naive as the general population. His argument insinuating that since soydiesel and cellulose-based ethanol are even more energy inefficient than corn grain ethanol we should just ignore the inefficiencies and wastefulness of corn, is very invalid.
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» Pimental is like a global warming skeptic - and ethanol CAN be clean, and Wall Street-free!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: scmp on Jun 13, 2007 9:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Ok... how...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok... how...
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Forget ethanol
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Forget ethanol
Posted by: scmp
» RE: Forget ethanol
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 13, 2007 9:29 AM
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Personally, I find something distasteful about the prospect of being the first nation in history to put food in our gas tanks. My personal distaste, however, shouldn't stop you from being able to develop and market your technology. Just don't depend on taxpayer handouts to make your ideas economically viable; we're already saddled with enough folks on the dole.
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» You don't mind the $30 billion in subsidies that go to fossil fuels? Much more if you count Iraq!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Each topic doesn't require recounting every other negligent or willfull mistake in human history.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: kmart35 on Jun 13, 2007 9:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You can make ethanol with solar/wind power and with organic agriculture... and w/o Wall Street!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» And you can completely ensure "energy independence" if only you...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jun 13, 2007 9:35 AM
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Article, please!
As one of your few paying customers, I beg you - less time CENSORING, more time writing!
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Posted by: dougii on Jun 13, 2007 9:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: PopRox80 on Jun 13, 2007 9:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It comes down to using less. Of everything. Economic models based on constant upward growth are, by definition in a world with finite resources, unsustainable. Why does this even have to be said? Two other posters before me have commented on it and I didn't see a single response. The fact is, only a complete lifestyle and perceptual change will ensure humanity's survival. I'm sure it's inconceivable for most people, but the only way we'll survive is if we stop placing our species ahead of everything else on earth, and I've found that even liberal, progressive thinkers have a hard time with that concept.
We've been brainwashed from birth to believe that we are the best, the important ones, the "intelligent" creatures--and yet we are destroying the rest of the life inhabiting the planet. This, to me, is the single greatest issue facing us--not Iraq, not losing civil rights, not poverty, not war or genocide or famine. As tragic as those things are, the environmental damage and suffering we've caused truly dwarfs human problems. As paradoxical as it sounds, the way we'll survive is to relegate ourselves to equal importance with everything around us. I guarantee that it would make for a much happier, healthier, sustainable lifestyle.
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» Economic models based on constant upward growth...hmmm
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: What this says to me...
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: BeeGee on Jun 13, 2007 9:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a West Virginian, I'd love to see a thriving biodiesel industry instead of a lot of uemployed people sitting on their porches gulping beer and oxycontin.
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» same old questions....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: same old questions....
Posted by: BeeGee
» Don't listen to JoshuaLudd. He's just a useless baldface liar badmouthing real solutions.
Posted by: maxpayne
» Name a single lie I have told. Put up or shut up. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Yes... there... but address my point. How and where do you grow enough anywhere else???
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Finding places to grow it is not that hard - The thing is
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: Bart Thesc on Jun 13, 2007 9:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Net energy arguments aside, ethanol from corn without subsidies doesn't work. The subsidies are not being paid, for the most part, to individuals. The money is going to giant agribusinesses.
If we were serious about using ethanol we could get rid of the sugar and ethanol tariffs and quotas. Brazil would be happy to sell us as much of both as we ask for. Any chemist will tell you that it is hugely more efficient to make ethanol out of sugar than out of corn. As far as the economic and energy security issues go, once we remove the disincentives other sugar producing countries around the globe will immediately ramp up their production to meet the demand.
The price the rest of the world pays for sugar is 8 1/2 cents per pound. Because we are keeping a few sugar growers in Florida happy it costs 21 cents a pound in the US.
What would happen if we took away all the sweetheart deals that cost all of us and fatten a few agribusiness bottom lines? I'd be willing to bet that ADM would survive and the Florida growers would have to find a business that was actually profitable 'without' government handouts.
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Posted by: Bart Thesc on Jun 13, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see.
Get electricity from a power plant to crack molecules and collect the hydrogen spending a fair amount of energy in the process. Cool the hydrogen down to a liquid so it can be transported, spending more energy (what was your air conditioning bill last summer?). Spend fuel getting it to fueling stations (owned by?). Buy a car that's engine can only be repaired by highly trained and well paid specialists under tightly controlled conditions keeping in mind that a small flaw in the engine or fuel system plus some graham crackers and chocolate turns you into a s'more. Drive to a neighborhood fueling station that has 100 times the hydrogen (and 100 times the potential 'fun') as the Hindenburg. Fill 'er up. Turn the hydrogen back into electricity to make the wheels go round and round. Rinse. And repeat.
Vs.
Pull the car into the garage. Plug it into the wall socket which is amazingly connected to the same power plant. If it breaks, call a tow truck or your brother-in-law who's good with his hands.
Hmmm. And who is it that is promoting this hydrogen you speak of??
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» RE: Side note
Posted by: scmp
» Right on - direct electricity is far more energy-efficient (but not from nuclear or fossil fuels!)
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: garry minor on Jun 13, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Legalization and cultivation of hemp as an industrial raw material and food source is vital for the worlds ecology and economy. Currently the federal Government pay's billions of dollars in subsidies, mostly to corporate giants, to not farm their land.
Hempseed is classified by our Government as a stategic food source by executive order 12919, yet denied to the citizens of this country for food. Hempseed is recognized as the single most nutritious thing you can eat. Hempseed as a source of feed for livestock would eliminate the need for hormones and remnants now being blamed for BSE in our population and food chain. BSE causes deposits that build up in the bloodstream and cause mental deterioration. American beef is banned in Europe due to these additives.
Hemp can also be converted to methanol efficiently, yielding 1,000 gallons per acre, and is the most efficient plant source for fuel. Henry Ford built and fueled a car with it. Neither he nor Diesel planned on using petroleum as a fuel source. Unknown to most Americans is that our oil based synthetics originated from cellulose based technology. Hemp can also be used for all paper, plastics, pressed board, textiles, and most building products. Over 25,000 uses and products can currently be made from hemp, from cellophane to dynamite. Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. For thousands of years all ships sails, rope, and clothing were of kaneh fiber. Cannabis grows like crazy from the Equator to the Arctic circle and can be grown on land that is not suitable for corn and other more delicate crops. Cannabis also does not need the fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides required from the other plant sources. In 1938 Popular Science wrote that hemp is the most desirous crop to grow and would be the first billion dollar crop. What happened?
The reason cannabis is illegal has never had anything to do with how it effects you physically. Cannabis is illegal so that billionaires can remain billionaires.
Hemp is now being grown in Canada and throughout the world, but only 15 States are beginning the process here at home. Once again our farmers are at a disadvantage as they fight our system to allow them to compete.
In Canada and Europe cannabis has been clinically proven to actually increase brain cell development and has been found helpful with cancer, Alzheimers, autism, MS, epilepsy, migraine, arthritis, obesity, chronic pain, nausea, glaucoma, Huntingtons, Parkinsons, Tourettes, Crohns disease and more. Yet our Government and FDA continue to ignore it and it's many uses.
Kaneh bosm, cannabis, hemp is absolutely a must for the health and vitality of our planet. While we should always look at solar, hydro, or any feasible power source, we should at least use the best plant source we have available for fuel, and that is without a doubt kaneh bosm.
Lets not forget that it was God that instucted Moses to use 250 shekels of kaneh bosm in the oil used to anoint all Kings, Priests, and Prophets, including Jesus! Fuel for the spirit, fuel for the Earth.
The Tree of Life
FOOD, FUEL, SHELTER, MEDICINE, PLEASURE, SPIRITUALITY!
Sorry if I got off track, but it's good for everything, not just fuel.
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» RE: As you can see, people here don't care to hear the truth
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 13, 2007 10:40 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mom'z the word on Jun 13, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Patrick was able to do R&D with tax credit incentives offered by the Carter administration during the energy crisis in the 80’s. The process was so successful that a former astronaut who was using alternative fuel sources to fly his twin engine across the country used Patrick’s ethanol for the last leg of his flight. That was over 25 years ago and I am sorry I have forgotten the astronaut’s name. Patrick had a problem with ADM then because they were a monopoly. Even though Patrick’s fermentation process and vacuum still was a complete success when the tax credits stopped his backers pulled out. There was no money to grow on and everything came to a halt.
From our experience I think the problem with using corn for ethanol is not as big a problem as using ADM or any monopoly as the only available source of that ethanol.
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jun 13, 2007 12:18 PM
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But unfortunately, like so many things, stupidity rules over logic and reason. I wonder how bad things will have to get before ... aww skip it... you know the drill.
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» Again, say no to industrial, fossil fuel based agriculture, not to ethanol
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: hemp doesn't need to be grown like that
Posted by: Techubus
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 13, 2007 12:23 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Donald Kennedy, Science Editor 27 April 2007
".... there is hopeful talk in Silicon Valley about "clean tech," and "biofuels" is the new entrepreneurial mantra there. But the problem is that limiting carbon emissions with biofuels like ethanol is complex terrain, and most proposals turn out to carry external costs."
"Let's start with the explosive growth of a corn ethanol industry in the tallgrass prairies of America's West. This boon for those rural economies succeeds a long history of dual-purpose farm legislation, in which production objectives are mixed with rural welfare goals. Refineries now number well over 100 with more being added rapidly, as farmers expand cultivation into lands formerly set aside for conservation and drop soybeans to make room for corn. Even if corn could yield 30% of the equivalent energy of gasoline (the goal set by the Secretary of Energy), that would create a whole array of collateral distortions. One would be its environmental impact in the United States. Another would be distortion of the price structure of an important grain commodity that is traded in world markets and used in livestock production. Will that make maize or meat more affordable to poor countries that must import it, or to the poor people who need to buy it? Not likely."
"Ethanol derived from sugar cane is better: Growing the plant is energetically less costly, and extraction and fermentation are more efficient. That's what must have interested President Bush during his "Chavez shadow tour" of South America in March. Of course, U.S. companies would love to import this valuable product, which now accounts for a quarter of the ground-transportation fuel in Brazil. Despite such hopes, some senators supporting alcohol-from-corn have helped lay a heavy U.S. protective tariff on Brazilian alcohol derived from sugar. If we got rid of that, it would reduce total carbon emissions, though only if Brazil could expand its production substantially. Is there some deal in progress? Alas, nothing's up."
"Sugar alcohol is better than corn alcohol, but palm oil is even better in your tank (though not in your martini). Its relatively high energy efficiency per unit volume makes it a good biodiesel fuel. Trucks can run entirely on palm oil, although it is usually mixed with conventional fossil fuels. A large-scale effort is under way to convert lands in Indonesia to palm oil plantation agriculture, with plans to double current production in a few years. But again, the effort has a downside. Not only will the needed rainforest destruction (by burning) partly cancel any energy advantage supplied by the palm oil, but the conversion will also threaten orangutans and other endangered species."
"The best course is to abandon this cluttered arena and invest seriously in a direct approach. As Chris Somerville pointed out in this space,* the conversion of cellulosic biomass (corn stover, wood chips) has a far higher potential for fuel production than any of the above biofuels. The challenge is biochemical: Plant lignins occlude the cellulose cell walls; they must be removed, and then the enzymology of cellulose conversion needs to be worked out. The technology is complex. No commercial reactor has yet been built, though six are funded. Some hope has been raised by new commitments, like the $500 million joint project between British Petroleum and the Universities of California and Illinois. Nevertheless, as Somerville notes, the sobering reality is that what the U.S. government spends on all of plant physiology is only one-hundredth of the research budget of the National Institutes of Health. That's far too little for a venture this important."
There you have it.
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» The Berkeley-BP biofuels initiative is also a huge scam
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: xconservative on Jun 13, 2007 12:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: uncleeddie on Jun 13, 2007 1:05 PM
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» World Bank/IMF/NAFTA scam is more like it - ALL agricultural products are treated like this
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: CarolL on Jun 13, 2007 1:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corn and soybeans farmers out in western IL where I grew up are just salivating over the 3 new ethanol plants that are going in (all in the same county), and everyone else
in those little farm towns are, too. The price of corn
is going up. Land prices have tripled in some areas just in the past year or two. "Oh, boy. More money for all of us. We're going to plant corn right up to the road. We've
already torn down most of the trees and ripped out the
hedgerows, so we're ready to plant one of the most
nutrient-hungry, heavy-fertilizer crops known to man.
"And, instead of rotating crops like we used to, and
like stewards of the land should, we're just going to
plant corn each and every year. We've already
contaminated the well water, so what difference does
it make if we use more chemicals? Sure, we could do
just as well if not better if we planted sugar beets
or switchgrass, but, hey, we only know corn, and we're
not changin' for nobody."
And the kicker: Ethanol doesn't make your car run any
better. It doesn't cut down on emissions -- in some
cases, it emits more pollution than gasoline. It actually burns less efficiently than gasoline by quite a bit, since cars are not engineered to run on ethanol.
Upshot: Yes, we could use slightly less oil/gas if we used more ethanol, but at what cost? Ruined land, contaminated water, more emissions, air pollution from the plant
itself, and who makes the money? The oil companies or Archer Daniels Midland, who, with very few exceptions, are going to own the ethanol plants.
Good for the environment? Good for farmers? I just don't see it.
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» RE: Why I'm against ethanol
Posted by: xconservative
» Banks profit as land lease prices increase & the farmers get screwed over & Big Oil loses profit...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You might suppose then, knowing no more of me than that, thankfully, many of you your poison and pain long suffered me, that perhaps I have explored and thought a few other things through along the way, these sad decades since.
One of them, early on, is this. You do not hurl your living flesh, our thin layer of topsoil, into the abyss. GONE. Do you believe, as is ever so painfully evident when I access these many kinds of discussions over the decades, that you get 'something for nothing'!? What you remove from that thin layer.. is then gone. For all their intents and purposes who wish to profit by this further rape, short sightedly, if not outright criminally, too soon our life on this planet.. forever. Corpseco has already destroyed and lost to US much of that topsoil. GREATLY MUCH. We are in hazard by this. Tens of thousands of years of a HEALTHY PLANET to build that thin layer supporting and containing it's multitude of organisms, the only Natural Living Environment and Atmosphere Mediating Biomass that rivals that being poisoned by them to extinction in our oceans. And, it cleans up after US, in spite of ourselves. Not to mention feeding us. Need I remind you that we cannot live without it. We must learn, and be damn quick about it at this point, to TEND THIS GARDEN. It is all we have holding us back the edge of this abyss. Do not trade your living flesh for gasoline. Yikes!!
It is always so sad for me, we most being well intelligent enough, but corpseco 'educated and conditioned', that we endlessly, sometimes in near elegance of our fervent arguments this way and that, simply outsmart ourselves.. endlessly so as very carefully wiled and carried out by others. We have a lot of 'help' in this intellectual and spiritual tragedy. Their ILLUSION ~ relentlessly pressed against you from all sides by their all pervasive media monster machine from your very birth, has become your DELUSION. All encompassing. It is all that you know. It is your reality. Your very life as you moment to moment feel and perceive it. The most cynical part of it, for me anyway, is that they take advantage of our human family/tribal nature so that we mindlessly enforce it on each other. FOR THEM. Too many of you anyway. I do not blame you, only in the terrible damage to US all these carefully fed shallownesses now impose upon US. Get a grip. Dammit! Delusion is the clinical 'gold standard' of Insanity. Your deception.. the goal of all the PREDATORY CRIMINALS deeply plagueing US now. They pay huge amounts of money, yours in fact if you but more deeply examined, through that media monster to endlessly deceive and condition you. Frank Zappa in 1963 told US loud and clear.. "it can't happen here". ummm. You factually held from the Simple Truths of it all. Blinded by their flickering tongue of light.
The simple enough and clean technologies have existed for decades, I know this personally, to solve much of this. As I painfully learned long ago, deeply too hazardous to much discuss. Any lights coming on out there... ?
CARBON EMPIRE & PROFIT.
You are, by these and many other means, prevented from actually, factually committing to and physically emplacing in your lives these simple technologies and for the most part, kissing the CARBON CORPSETOCRACY the f#%k OFF!! Stop going in the circles you are going in. There are many among you who are feeding this. Bet on it.
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You next 'choice' at the Great United Cattle Company trough, is another BIG OIL BOY. The other half of BUSH&GORE co., usaInc. Their game old as the hills, you finally in disgust but not full vision the matter, you most all behave as quail bolting out of one Predatory Criminal's 'game bag'.. straight into his partners. Never seeing the 'crack of dawn'. They snickering.. you dimmo/repug co'ed yet again. DON'T GET GORED!! Do your 'due diligence' and find and behold this man's actual history among US. Nasty. Not at all their CORPSECO 'PR' DECEPTION on you, but who he factually is. Having now ruined their CARBON CORPSETOCRACY 'welcomes' worldwide, it is time now for them to 'co-opt' Alt Ener and profit themselves, not you, by it. Control it. And as always, YOU. GORECO their new 'Poster Boy'. You are being managed.. as any herd of livestock is. Your fate anymore, by your own perfidies of lack of depth and vision in these important matters, very much the same. Witness the 100 year non stop slaughterhouse in our names they carry out with our hands.. we are knee deep in the gris and corpses of babies, children, mothers and fathers honorably defending those families and their homes. Again!! The horror in IRAQ just to mention only, merely (how awful my choice of words) one. OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS! LOOK!! DAMMIT!! BY YOUR ACQUIESCENCE THOUGH ALL, AT YOUR OWN BLOODY FOOTPRINTS THROUGH HISTORY. ALL OF IT FOR CARBON PROFIT. Their PROFIT.. your children serving's blood. The clink of their shackles very near upon you each now. As one who has experienced the horror of their GULAG for a 'thought crime', and understand very deeply from that grotesque immersion, your existence is just that very and unperceived frame of mind and existence NOW. Is your child's school 'under lockdown' today? Some child commit some dreadful 'thought crime'. We are completely SPUN in just 50 years. ENSLAVED NOW IN OUR OWN MINDS. Their 'victory' over US within the Ultimate High Ground we most don't even perceive. PSYOPed to death. Your just reward I suppose if you do not soon take responsibility for all these CRIMES and prosecute them FULLY, THEM ALL, PAINFULLY IF IT MUST BE SO, EVERYONE OF THEM.. ending it. Saving yourselves. Not to mention your HONOR.. your FREEDOM.. your once RIGHTS under our now crushed CONSTITUTION.. your HEALTH.. your HAPPINESS.. your PROSPERITY they have stolen from you. YOUR AND YOUR CHILDREN'S FUTURES.
Ruthlessly and Rightfully prosecuted.. as they in their stolen courts this day, ruthlessly you. Feeding you as nothing more than meat, wholesale for 40 years now into their Prison Industrial Complex.. that too for their great PROFIT.. their fearful spider hole.. the Iron Maw of their GULAG. And all too often.. a bad fate therein.. their venomous needle. To 'correct' your 'thought crimes'.
He's right next to you too; those nice clothes, that 'smile', that 'approved' haircut, that car, that $$$ cell phone, the 'bling', that house, the 'pat' phrases and strategies pressed upon you, that disapproving, now risen today, ominous 'look' if you demur. The 'dime he drops' you don't see. A right proper 'sports minded' guy. I WIN!! ~ you LOSE!! Oh my what a fine and nice and great guy.. wish I was like him.. with that big fat diamond encrusted platinum plastic card. Yours just the plastic axe they sent you in the mail.. your 'fall of the Berlin Wall peace dividend'.. with which you so many have axed away your equities.. your last physical refuges.. into their pockets too. 'Swiped'.. hear their craven laughter somewhere.. those corporate front shadows. His bottomless card. Just part of their 'plan'. Suckers! I WIN!! ~ you LOSE!! The Criminal Predator's Stone Axe taking US down again. With smiles on our faces it near seems. NICELY F#&KED I'D GUESS. (I only recently of deep frustration, took up cursing at age 57, seems to be the only way you 'hear' anymore.)
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:21 PM
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Our Long Recorded History, and Great Wisdom in such matters, is a tragic one of unending cyclical social debacles, the ever repeating destruction by the Criminal Predator's Stone Axe of the Higher Consciousness we are Born To and by Right Spirit And Sacrifice Always Again Raise. Why do we not remember the terrible lessons of our own flesh come before US.. winged to US in our Literatures and Classic Histories. Our Great Wealth of Wisdoms we have been cravenly 'jingo'ed' away from. We as homo sapiens have reached, by their greeds and strategies of Empire&Profit, by our leveraged numbers, by our consumption and permanent toxing of our biosphere, Critical Mass. We cannot go back.. only ahead. And forward for very much longer only if we each seriously examine, and deeply so, within. Who have we each now become. What then we irreducibly now are.. each. What then.. if we do not swiftly regain our grasp of our own true existences, our real and honest personal INTEGRITIES again fiercely held, and firmly so the available and swiftly needed technical/social solutions to these now terrible problems they have imposed upon you.. is your FATE. By your own minds and hands. Get a focking grip.. RIGHTFULLY COMMIT!
THEIR CRIMINAL CORPORATE FRONTS.. ILLUSION~DELUSION..
vs. OUR CONSTITUTION. THEY HAVING NOW DESTROYED AND SUCCEEDING IT AS OUR CORPSETOCRACY. mooo...
Those occulting themselves behind and owning these criminal fronts, long the sole purpose of these 'corporations' slipped into our 'governance', through those 'corporations' have now substituted for US by their deception a 'state' which those 'corporation fronts' own.. and that 'state' now owns you. See your Dictionary. You certainly won't ever actually of that knowledge see them.. occulted behind those criminal corporation fronts from your perception.. 'that nice smile'.
A FREE, FAIR, OPEN SOCIETY CAN REMAIN IN EXISTENCE LONG.. BUT ONLY IF IT'S ENTERPRISES ARE YOURS AND TRANSPARENT TO YOU, AS THEY EMPLOY OUR NATIONAL RESOURCES THERE DEEPLY AFFECTING YOUR LIVES AND FUTURES, AND THOSE ENTERPRISES ARE TOO.. FREE, FAIR, OPEN ENTERPRISES. The deaths by their monopoly monsters of our own once great wealth and security of private enterprises long a fact now. By the criminal deceptions against you by those now 'hiding behind the bush'.. to spring out on you. Take what is yours. DONE DEAL NOW.
I'm sure by this juncture, if I have not suffered the vanity of your bonfire, that you must, some anyway, see your part in that destruction.. yet you do not acknowledge it to each other.. or act against it as you deeply now must.
We just dither on.. as directed. Many not so but fearfully silent.. to them my apologies. But you most...
Our greatest, perhaps only safety lies in their JUST, permanent sequestration in their own GULAG they have stealthed upon you just out of your beknighted view. Your ultimate refuge at greatest depth resides in the clear definitions within your Webster's Unabridged, your best safety. I won't trouble you with the word list. I'm quite sure, on reflection, you will know what you should re examine. We once all knew the correct definitions of those all important tools of our minds and language, our words. We have, by their criminal 'PR' helming of our comprehensions, been washed away from those safe shores.. now adrift.. at the mercy of any ill wind that blows. The slow shifting of our consciousness by their stealthy, careful deceptions. In Websters Our Truths clearly defined for US again. Good bedtime reading.
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:24 PM
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As one who in my turn walked those dark fields of shattered bone prepared to defend at any cost our Freedoms and Our Constitution, won for US at pain and swordpoint by our wiser and certainly more courageous forebears.. you most have betrayed US that served on those fields of terror and Honor for you.. or so we briefly thought they were then.. you in the safety and comfort of your home lives here in America. You beguiled by that flickering, forked tongue of light from their toob into your minds.. your 'remote control' fervently grasped in your hands.. your own petty personal greeds, biases and prejudices calculatedly inflamed by them for your possession of those phoney papah dollahs and that nice pair of heavy leather, rhinestoned, hobnailed boots you so many now wear in your minds. And you impose tragically upon US all. You slowly corrupted and chump changed. We Betrayed. Their private laughter at US and glee as they dance in their soireed shadows now unsurpassed by any of ours in our own more human hopes and joys.
The way ahead is near a certainty if we are to SUCCEED in regaining our FREEDOM, HEALTH, and PROSPERITY. Mother Earth herself.. your own living flesh if you would but grasp it.. to survive this immense insult she now suffers. The Truth.. your choice.
SOLAR DEMOCRACY? .. or CARBON CORPSETOCRACY...
We will all soon 'pay at the pump' for this new tsunami of the blood of innocents we now pour into our tanks. And so pointlessly so.. our 'looking the other way' their greeds and aggrandizements of Empire & Profit Inc.
JUST SAY NO TO THE TEXECUTIONER.
DENY HIM HIS DRUG OF CHOICE.
ARISE!! TAKE BACK OUR CONSTITUTION.. OUR LIVES AND FUTURES WITH IT. Your Right Minds. Your HONOR.
The only thing of which I know that can be planted in our soils.. without much relative energy effort through it's crop cycle or disturbance of those soils.. or unnatural displacement of other life.. without finishing the draining of what little is left of our now poisoned drinking water aquifers to massively slake them.. without horrid pesticides and herbicides (remember Paraquat and 'Agent Orange'? Some of US who served, many no longer with US because of it, Remember and Well. It's just you who choose to 'forget'.).. without more CARBON PROFIT PROSTITUTION OF US ~ vast quantities of carbon petroleum and 'natural' gas converted into excoriating chemical fertilizer topsoil rapers and equipment fuels.. and actually BUILD UP TOPSOIL.. IS HEMP. A NATURAL BORN WINNER GIVEN US BY MOTHER EARTH. What fools we are. Naturally builds back soils in extended rotation for future clean food production. It was the largest crop in the world until it's sudden and ruthless suppression in the 1930's.. clean, providing much employment, enterprise and hugely useful to US.. but, that very large, honest and private industry destroyed by CORPSECO for their enormously consuming CARBON PROFIT, toxic plastic material technologies they cleverly and slickly substituted into our lives for our natural fibers and molded solids, taking with those our private industries we ourselves owned. uummm 'thought crime' anyone? Get it. SWEET MARY JANE. GULAG. Perhaps those who afflict US with their TREASONS UPON US, and it being their own cruel choice in their silencing Saddam their crimes against US all planetwide, should ponder their own 'stretch' of hemp ahead. Get em' high on hemp rope. Teach em' a new dance in their shadows.. a little 'texas shuffle', a little 'texas swing'. The horrid 'penalty' they themselves, such 'law abiding' citizens, set for TREASON. SWEET MARY I'm quite sure appalled by such a use of her wonderful bounty. THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, OUR CONSTITUTION, JUSTICE RIGHTFULLY SERVED.
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Posted by: bobjbax on Jun 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SEEK THE TRUTH. LIVE BY IT. BE FREE.
Some men's deeper truths ascertained.. are others deepest fears.. their criminalities of deceptions against you brought into the light.
Our Basic Human Truths are always very simple.. until we are 'led' away from them. The 'devil truly in their details'.
NO TOPSOIL FOR GASOLINE!! DON'T BURN YOUR OWN FLESH.
You have little time now to waste.
Bobby Baxter ~ Veteran & Marijuana Felon
copy/paste/send
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» Good agricultural processes preserve and build topsoil - using Fossil Fool-Free Agriculture.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Good agricultural processes preserve and build topsoil - using Fossil Fool-Free Agriculture.
Posted by: bobjbax
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 13, 2007 3:25 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. While big agriculture will reap most of the profits of additional production, at least some family and small farmers are benefiting from it. When you consider they have been hit hard over the last few decades by prices held down by government subsidies and big agricultures dumping and price manipulation schemes, what is so bad about this?
2. The starving people of this world are a product of the economic and political system. By farmers planting additional corn on otherwise unused land, they are not harming the world's poor or starving. When you were a kid and your mother told you to eat everything on your plate because of starving kids in India, you might have listened. But, your eating everything on your plate never fed another hungry kid in India. It's the same type of thing with farmers planting additional corn.
3. Conservation is of course needed and desirable. But, America has very little mass transit and the world demand for energy is steadily increasing. Ethanol will never be a total or even really much of a partial solution, but we have to start somewhere and work with what we have.
So, I do believe on balance Ethanol has some positives going for it. Important things to consider, I believe, in a balanced argument.
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Posted by: DeAnander on Jun 13, 2007 5:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
tell it to the poor of Mexico who have been protesting in the streets as the price of corn for tortillas rose dramatically due to the ethanol bubble... what farmers plant -- guided by warped subsidies -- is another policy decision from the same political and financial mafia that keeps the starving billions hungry.
as to farmers are not in the business of feeding the world -- hello? then who is? little green men from outer space? farming is what feeds the world, period. unless of course we decide that we would rather feed the automobiles and airplanes enjoyed on a regular basis by -- at most -- about 15 percent of the world population.
also I would point out that Brazil realises its amazing sugar cane productivity by liquidating millennia-old topsoil from recently-clearcut rainforest. once that abused soil is exhausted -- and it won't take long -- the wonderful returns on Brazilian sugar cane plantations will diminish, and clearcutting the rainforest will assist in further desertifying the S American continent, disrupting the rainfall patterns, etc. it's a one-time bonanza just like the oil fields, only less energy-dense. soil mining, not sustainable.
the energy "requirements" of a lazy-ass car-based culture and a clinically insane growth-obsessed economic theory exceed the total annual floral and faunal productivity of the planet. fossil fuel has been the bandaid that papered over this large-ish gap between income and expenditure -- i.e. spending the trust fund rather than living safely on the interest. now the trust fund is almost all gone, and the top dog nations have become just like spoilt irresponsible trustifarian kids -- unfit to survive in the real world, unable to accept the necessity for serious and difficult changes of lifestyle. whining and kicking and insisting that the Energy Fairy is gonna appear in a puff of (green and harmless) smoke and save us without our having to change in any way.
it hs been written that for a scientific paradigm to change, all those who wholeheartedly believed in the old paradigm have to die. this is not a cheerful reflection from where I sit. I found this article disingenuous and desperate -- one more true believer recites the Creed of the Energy Fairy,
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» It's NAFTA that drove farmers off the land and jacked up prices, not ethanol...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 13, 2007 6:11 PM
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Now we've got the left attacking global warming as well.
The left and the right in the United States are, by and large, just the sock puppets of the corporate, autocractic elite - who like to see Exxon's $40 billion dollar profit margins come rolling into their bank accounts.
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» RE: thanol and Biodiesel are a serious threat to Big Oil's profit margins!
Posted by: DeAnander
» The problem there is industrial, fossil fueled agriculture - not 'ethanol'
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: The problem there is "agriculture" too...
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 13, 2007 10:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: To the posters who posted hemp as a better idea, I say thank you and keep fighting.
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: jparsons on Jun 13, 2007 11:46 PM
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that the Western world chows down on daily, or hourly.
But I don't see the cultural stampede to vegetarianism yet. When oh when will that happen? Too late, I expect.
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Posted by: lonpine on Jun 14, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
6. Support performance, not prescriptive standards.
Agreed! Bravo! Here are a set of performance standards proposed by The Natural Step- just one of many ideas out there.
(i) Add nothing, net, to the earth's crust.
(ii) Take nothing, net, from the earth's crust.
(iii) Do nothing to harm the biosphere's regenerative capacity.
(iv) Insure social equity. (ie, share.)
Find what technologies do this, and promote them.
5. ...The key is local ownership of biorefineries.
Ha- good luck with that. At the beginning of the 20th c. there were how many different oil companies, compared to the beginning of the 21st c.? This raises an interesting question. You'd think Exxon-Mobil, the largest petroleum miner and processor in the world, would have a good idea of how much oil there really is left in the ground, and what the state of demand will be in the next few decades. If they saw the writing on the wall, wouldn't they start investing in the next liquid energy source- are they buying up farms and biorefineries...? I don't know- but that would be something to look out for, IMO.
4. Electricity, not biofuels, will be the primary energy source for an oil-free and sustainable transportation system.
Fair enough. Just figure out a renewable way to make both.
3. Corn is a transitional energy feedstock, but it has played a crucial role in creating the infrastructure for a carbohydrate economy.
It seems dubious to rely on a heavily susbsidized, fossil fuel intensive crop to kickstart this infrastructure. Why not get it right to begin with? Here's an ex. (tho' not meant to promote nuclear power): Nukes were based on submarine technology (light water reactors), when potentially safer designs (graphite air cooled), made for terrestrial use and ill-suited to the submarine, were overlooked. Result? we're stuck with LWRs, which inherently are less safe than other designs.
2. Wind and sunlight can only be harnessed for some form of energy (thermal, mechanical, electrical). Plants, on the other hand, can be used for many purposes...
And so? Remember, before the Faber process which brought us chemical fertilizer (and munitions), agriculture had been solar powered for all of human history.
1. Sustainability requires molecules....
What exactly is the implication of this statement? Doesn't everything require molecules? Doesn't an unsustainable industrial economy rely on molecules?
The key behind sustainability, by most definitions, is that we need to stop mining our energy and start harvesting it, the idea being that the latter is a limited resource that will run out, and the latter is renewable. The only renewable energy we have is solar energy, which comes to us as sunlight, wind, wave energy, ocean thermal energy, to name a few. We might lump in tidal energy which comes from the motion of the earth and moon around the sun. This is what we need to switch to- from being miners to being harvesters.
For better and for worse, we've gotten so populous and technologically sophisticated that we've turned the world into a spaceship. So instead of thinking of What Would Jesus Do, let's think, What Would an Astronaut Do? How would she recycle her waste? Where would she get her energy? Her food?
That's what we've become- astronauts eating through our last stores of food, our spaceship getting cluttered with garbage. And we will end up exactly where we're headed unless we change course.
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» RE: "Just figure out a renewable way to make both."
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Jun 14, 2007 9:12 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Compare that to the electric motor pushing +95% efficiency, zero emissions, no gears, regenerative breaking, and near max torque off the line.
With the new breakthroughs in battery technology, they will last 20+ years, with no memory, and charge in minutes. There is a reason why all these energy companies are buying up nuclear like mad.
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» And then you still have all the problems of where the electricity comes from...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: The problem isn't the fuel, its the goddamn internal combustion engine
Posted by: channing
» RE: The problem isn't the fuel, its the goddamn internal combustion engine
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: "there is still a place for IC engines (diesel) in agricultural"
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: johndoraemi on Jun 14, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by Prof. C. Ford Runge and Prof. Benjamin Senauer
Corn's net energy is NOT worth the food crops and topsoil it DISPLACES.
The author says nothing about reducing energy usage, lowering the amount of waste, miles driven, and associated standards of conservation.
His focus is on producing more and more from biofuels, which in a market based system (corrupted as it is by government subsidies) will reward rich energy users at the expense of poor starving humans.
This is a moral and ethical issue above all else.
We must address overpopulation as well as waste and inefficiency. And we must do it fast.
Corn is simply not a good place to put a huge social investment in energy. That's a scientific analysis of its energy properties, period. If other crops are far more net energy rich, then they should be looked at.
Corn is the cash crop because powerful interests are encouraged to grow it due to subsidies. This can and should change.
Nothing in the above article changes my mind on that core issue.
Crimes of the State Blog
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» RE: Author is knowledgeable, but... WRONG about alternatives
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: channing on Jun 14, 2007 1:39 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any and EVERY solution based on the internal combustion engine is a failure-in-progress. As "ambrose pare" pointed out in the post above, this dinosaur-technology has long been outdated in its ability to improve significantly energy-efficiency, it simply is not possible to get several hundred friction-producing components to match the efficiency of the several DOZEN required in electric motor drives, period.
The combustion engine based auto industry, especially in the US, is stuck in facilitating ANY and ALL combustion-fuel processes/"alternatives" to keep their trillion dollar ghost alive. Exhaust systems, emissions systems, fuel tanks, injection systems, massive cast-iron/aluminum casings, high-precision internal components and bearings galore, plus cooling systems and oil systems all simply disappear with electric motor drives. And the efficiencies are topped off with infinitely more responsive control, torque and maximum speed... just check out the all-electric MacClaren, though currently expensive, the performance "ceiling" is only being limited now by such things as aerodynamics, gravity and the pure physics of "round tires and flat planes".
More to the point of the article, how do we get that electricity INTO the car? This also turns out to be quite simple, though massive, if not global in scale:
http://www.trecers.net/downloads/deserts_en.pdf
This research out of Germany has already determined that with CURRENTLY EXISTING AND PROVEN TECHNOLOGY, the Earth's DESERTS have the potential to deliver over 700 TIMES THE CURRENT ENERGY CONSUMPTION OF THE ENTIRE PLANET using a grid of CSA's, Concentrated Solar Arrays, connected together by High Tension Lines! We obviously would only need to develop this concept to 1/700th that scale, but in the US, such an undertaking would be roughly equivalent to building a new national oil and gas network, big, but we've already proven we're capable.
Such a grid would replace gas stations, the combustion engine, your natural gas pipelines, your gas/oil furnace, water heater, stoves and their hazards. Would involves the hiring of literally 10's of MILLIONS of new sustainable-economy JOBS, which in turn would solve the historically high "career discontent" rate. This would require NO FARM LAND, no Water Table Depletion, and bring to "near-zero" our CO2 output... without changing any current "comforts" of home.
BTW, this technology is NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE to WIND, the #2 best alternative energy source.
Cool the deserts, slow down the winds, make all industry quieter, more agile, and efficient... Improve the Planet, for God's sake!
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» RE: COMBUSTION ENGINE IS THE ENEMY OF PROGRESS
Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: and political will comes with understanding
Posted by: channing
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Posted by: scb on Jun 14, 2007 4:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, it does deserve a few clarifications. We here at Working Assets agree that bio-fuels, including ethanol, will play a significant role in our energy future if we are to address global warming and our current dependence on fossil fuels. What our action specifically called for was an end to the subsidies that corn based ethanol currently enjoys. Morris acknowledges that corn is a transitional feedstock and that cellulose based bio-fuels are the wave of the future. So, if we are on the verge of a cellulosic fuel future, why continue to subsidize the old? If subsidies are intended to help new technologies gain a competitive footing with established ones, why not support the emerging cellulose-based ethanol market?
I grew up in Illinois, where my grandparents were corn and bean farmers. And, I attended the University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana where they built the undergraduate library underground so as not to shade the corn in the famed Morrow Plots (established in 1876). Yet, even in Illinois, the cellulosic revolution is taking shape.
My alma mater is now partnering with University of California Berkeley on a $500 million Energy Biosciences Institute funded by none other that British oil behemoth BP. UIUC’s extension staff is working with farmers to move scientific findings on growing cellulose based energy feed stocks – like the tropical grass miscanthus – into the field. If BP is investing hundreds of millions of dollars in researching cellulosic bio-fuel crops, why should the feds continue to subsidize corn based ethanol?
We look forward to continuing the conversation. Oh, and David, why don't you upgrade to Working Assets Wireless? Land lines are going the way of the gasoline powered engine...
Sarah Clusen Buecher
Citizen Action Manager
Working Assets
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Posted by: Squarehead on Jun 14, 2007 5:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is obviously very well informed.. BUT in the 'warmed' world that is starting to emerge, where China is losing nearly 260,000 Hectares (~ 620,000 acres) per annum of productive agricultural land to desertification & urbanisation (about half each), where the Murray Darling basin (Australia) is suffering the most castastrophic drought in its history, where the Aral Sea (Russia- Kazahkstan ?) is the disaster it is, how can we plan to use food growing land for fuel crops? (Unless you're 'friends of George' oil- financial interests, in which case you need the compasssion/ common sense brain transplant)
I learn recently (well it was news to me) that my assumption that extra heat encouraged growth was somewhat naive... Most of our food plant growth is only within a relatively narrow soil temperatue range of ~ 60 fahrenheit to 85 degrees fahrenheit. Think about it.
So I think we are going to have MAJOR problems within the next 20 years. One of the immediate outcomes of these problems is going to be population movement... In Europe, I expect we will have the choice to let in ~ 200 – 500 million Africans, OR .. what? Machine guns? I am happy that I'd prefer (almost) open borders, and try to work round the problems. I think you in USA will be faced with the same problem.. but you can be lateral, it's not all negative.
You, a nation of immigrants, are now feeling very isolationist.. Unrealistic. You need new, young, people, to fuel your industry, your healthcare, your economy. They are going to be brown in skin colour, you should welcome it.
I believe that there is NOT an energy- fuel shortage, there is an imagination shortage. In most of continental US you have > 800 watts of energy, thermal, per square metre, for 8 – 10 hours every day THAT IS A LOT OF ENERGY. Get lateral, folks.
BTW I would draw Alternet readers attention to a small research spin-off of VAG (Volkswagen), Enginion AS, who were in Berlin (Germany). They made a small steam rotary engine, OP ~ 110 horse-power, (very usable) used in a pre-production experiment in the VW 'Rabbit & the Skoda 'Fabia'. Sounded great. They now seem to have closed up shop...
Why? Who bought them? Or persuaded VAG to close them down?
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Posted by: Jeanne on Jun 14, 2007 9:55 PM
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Posted by: Nedtheredhead on Jun 16, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We currently have 10% ethanol and petrol mix available in most Aussie states, all made from sugar cane. Three states are in the process of making 10% ethanol mandatory by the end of this year, and most states will have fallen inline within five years. The northern areas of Australia, from mid north coast NSW to the tip of Queensland on the eastern coast produces sugar cane. There are no farm subsidies in Australia, they were stopped in the 1970's. A few years ago now, Australia signed a free trade agreement with the US. Though we tried hard to have it included, the US would not include our sugar. The sugar cane farmers got together and lobbied the Aussie government and big sugar refiners such a CSR to expand their alcohol producing distilleries to make vehicle friendly ethanol. Though slow at first, it didn't take long for Aussies to realise the advantage of running this blended fuel. CSR are now looking to build new distillery, and an existing one in Sarina is about to triple its already high production of ethanol.
The beauty of this industry is the technology already exists for the making of alcohol, of which ethanol is just a poorer grad. The percentage of extra energy required is minimal to what is already being used, and the actual production of sugar cane, which is already established, also means minimal expansion requirements overall. Water, a very scarce commodity in Australia, is not a problem as the sugar cane is grown in the monsoonal belt of the country. Ground requirements, particularly fertilizer, is had from the dunder, or waste from sugar production, and machinery costs are already factored in. The mill processors already have cane trams criss crossing most of Queensland, and there is a very good chance many of these could be electric driven within ten years.
There were a few scare rumours put out that ethanol would damage cars, but once the petrol companies could see the price of unleaded petrol was putting some of their service stations out of business, they soon squashed these rumours. Most probably their own rumours in the first place.
We are now seeing farm land, which would have been destined to weeds and desolation, thanks to the US trade deal, thriving. The quality of the sugar cane doesn't have to be that high, so the poor quality cane, once destined for burning, is now shipped off to the mill as a viable resource.
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Posted by: sasquuatch55 on Jun 16, 2007 10:45 AM
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» RE: There is no one solution to independence...no combustion!
Posted by: robbrian
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Jun 18, 2007 7:57 PM
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by letting people tell us they 'have a burning resource' for us?
You know, there is a OneStop Solution:
STOP BURNING SHIT, PEOPLE.
if each of us put solar panels on our roofs, or used photovoltaic paint to create our OWN, DISTRIBUTED systems of energy. Hell, start small, get a wee portable one for all your rechargeable electronic toys.
THINK ABOUT IT: why do we have to wait to be SOLD a solution? create YOUR OWN SOLUTIONS to YOUR OWN PROBLEMS & CONDITIONS.
Our GrandParents weren't so flaccid, so why are we... more ignorant?
**SNAP OUT OF IT**
Spread Love...
... but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
~~~
"we, two, form a multitude" ~ Ovid
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Posted by: codyschank on Jun 26, 2007 9:58 AM
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Posted by: Joe on Jul 12, 2007 9:41 PM
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