This is getting ridiculous. None of these candidates, with of course the exceptions of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, have an original bone in their body. They are cut from the same steaming cow patty. This is actually getting to be entertaining. It would be funny if it weren't so terribly sad. One will state that he is a Christian, then the next comes along and says he's a better Christian. One will say they would torture terror suspects, then the next comes along and says he will torture them even worse and longer. They just keep on trying to one up the other on the same identical issues. Of course, when someone like Ron Paul comes along and says something original, such as our foreign policy is putting us in danger not our disappearing "freedoms" he's immediately called a traitor. How dare he think! That is against the rules!

This whole Christian business is getting way out of hand and these guys wouldn't know a "real" Christian if one came up and bit them on the ass. True Christians ae generally considered by most to be pretty good people. Of course, real Christians believe what Jesus believed and practiced, things like helping feed the poor, comforting the people that who by nature oppressed. These pseudo-Christian politicians are the exact opposite. They wouldn't part with a penny if they had a billion dollars to help others. They would steal food from the plate of a starving man to feed themselves. They are in the business of helping themselves and no one else. They are selfish, greedy, power hungry liars. They wouldn't bat an eye over killing innocent people if it put a buck in their pocket (and they haven't.)

I know...I seem so callous towards these folks. Well, they deserve it. They are low life parasites whose purpose in life is to accumulate money and power at the expense of others. I don't want people like this running my country. I want a person that has the ability to think on his feet, someone who has solutions rather than sound bites, someone who knows and cares that there are people in the "greatest country on Earth" that are sick and hungry and need a heping hand, not someone who pretends they don't exist and sweeps them under the rug. The "greatest country on Earth would put the priority on those within our country who are struggling to survive from day to day rather than those who have the most of everything.

The quality of peope we have to choose our "leaders"from has most certainly deteriorated. The democrats are no better or different than the republicans. They are in it for themselves, not us. I know...I push Ron Paul a lot. I do so because he is one of two candidates that are true leaders. We only have two choices and they are Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. The others are nothing but self serving, high dollar panhandlers.

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It started out ok, but didn't seem to have much direction. In the US, it's a given that all candidates have to pretend to be religious. The article just kind of states the obvious, and doesn't go anywhere with it.

The aircraft carrier analogy was ok....but if it were only a sinking ship, it wouldn't be so bad. It's still destroying everything in its path, and launching kamikaze planes in all directions.

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I wonder; could the fact that our leaders...verily, the majority of our citizens...worship an arrogant, jealous, tribal, Old Testament war God with sociopathic tendencies and an incurable anger management problem have anything to do with the fact that we are far and away the world's leading arms merchant, the leader in military interventions, the leader in fomenting coups against democratically-elected governments, the only nation to have used nuclear weapons against a purely civilian target, the 21 st century's number one killer of innocent men, women and children...or that our policies are dispised throughout the world...or that we are a target for retribution? Which of these Republican candidates will not continue this proud tradition?

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God shmod! I’m so sick and tired of this Santa Claus for adults and all the endless hypocrisy and contradiction and division that attends it. What happened to that Constitutional provision that there shall be no religious test for public office? Did our faux president have it removed while I wasn’t looking? I have no doubt the little monkey would do it if he could. I long for a day (though I hold no illusions about ever seeing it in what remains of my life) in which gods and religion assume their proper place alongside cigarettes and second-hand smoke, restricted to their own areas where thinking people don’t have to choke on them. And while we’re at it, let’s put this “God” on trial for crimes against humanity. Loves his children? Gimme a break! If mortal parents treated their children the way this “God” does, the kids would be removed from their care and the parents penalized. There’s an old Jewish proverb (or so I heard it) that if God lived on Earth, people would throw rocks at his windows. They got that right.

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Come on Alternet, Garton Ash is one of the chief liberal hawks in UK and an "humanitarian interventionist". He was an apologist for Blair, for the war, and an ardent Zionist. Enough said. We don't need his insidious commentary.

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God not only created heaven and earth, he created the angels, Lucifer included, and he created HELL! Furthermore God knows ahead of time those among us who will fail the test that qualifies which of us will be allowed in heaven. What a ridiculous story this god of Abraham is as described in the bible. The worst terrorist in the universe is this God.

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I appreciate it that our public figures take religion with some seriousness. Some more than others, of course. I do believe America is a great land and I believe that the strength of Christian faith down through the years is a major factor in that. I am not impressed by much of what I see in Europe which gave the world the likes of Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, and Marx. Is this what we prefer?

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"I am not impressed by much of what I see in Europe which gave the world the likes of Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, and Marx."
Reminder: The U.S.A. is a nation of immigrants. A great many of those immigrants came from Europe. And a great many of them are still proud of their family to European countries like Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Holland, England, Scotland, Ireland, etc. Europe has given the U.S.A. many of its most distinguished citizens.

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Correction: My above comment should read: "proud of their family links..."

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"Patriotism is the refuge of a scoundrel". They seem to have instead switched to religion. It's in poor taste and it's disrepectful. I've had a moderate amount of religion all my life. I hope it's enough to get me through this next election. I'm wearing thin already. Thanks, ANNA

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Where are the Zoroastrian candidates? I haven't seen even one candidate praying in front of an altar of fire. I don't see any Rastafarians, either. I betcha Kucinich is a closet Rastafarian, so I guess we can count him. I simply cannot believe the Scientologists haven't fielded a candidate. They must have other plans. Personally I think Hillary is just waiting for the right time to denounce the existence of God to score points with the secular-humanist voters.

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Living in this country(U.S.) is bizarre. It's one thing to laugh at it from afar, but quite another to have to live in it. I find myself looking around and wondering what the hell happened. I feel betrayed, confused and no longer a part of the 'majority' that I felt so secure in as I was growing up. We have no real leaders, and the incompetence displayed by the administration about Iraq, Katrinra, and New Orleans is not an isolated to the administration. You see it everywhere.
There used to be firm rules of behavior and decision making that reflected logic and the firm belief in 'the greater good'. That is no longer true. Decisions about policy in even the smallest town are made with no regard for people or what is 'right' or 'best' for all. Everything is about what profit is to be made and what one can 'get away with'.
We used have faith in the FDA and related agencies who made decisions about our lives, and even if we disagreed, we had faith that it was the 'right' decision. Now there is a general feeling of 'every man for himself' in this country.
I believe a lot of what happened to our society is due to higher education and belief of people that people who are educated, will somehow be more competent at a job and will be logical and do what is right.
It used to be you rose to the top because you were competent and a natural leader. There was no degree needed.Then suddenly it was a prerequisite to have a college degree to even be considered for a job. Not only that, but the better (more expensive and thus prestigious) degree you obtained, the more entitiled you were to a better job and more responsibility. People who have these prestigious degrees feel entitled and form professional and social groups that elininate any competition and don't allow for the rise of natural selection of leadership. I would put forth Bush and his cronies as a prime example of incompetency rising to the top because of just such practices.
When my husband graduated Berkeley, he was offered jobs at places that had Berkley graduates in charge. You were 'in' if you had the degree. It didn't seem to matter if you were competent or could do the job well. People made provisions for you because you were 'one of them'.
We somehow forgot about competency tests and we are living with the results.
I am here to tell you that some of the most incompetent people I have ever met have the higher degrees. That goes for doctors, lawyers, and various other professions. It is almost considered blasphamy to talk like this.
The first time I shared my experience of rejecting a doctor because he was an idiot. my own family acted like I was committing a mortal sin to question "a doctor". Of course that was 20 years ago, lol, and now everyone recognizes a good doctor is hard to find.
In school I read articles about the 'culture shock' of different generations that found their world changing at such an accelerated rate. Things like the telephone, cars, industrial revolution, etc...clear up to computers.
The sad part for me is I feel I am suffering from huge culture shock, because in the last 10 years I have come to realize that most of the things I believed in, like my democracy, my freedoms, and yes, my government are a big joke.
It says in the media that 90% of U.S. citizens believe in God, but we live in a society where homelessness, children without medical care and random acts of violence are just accepted as part of life.
Well thats my rant for this morning, time for more coffee. ANd by the way I do have the degree.

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All this new talk and fuss over "God" and Intelligent Design brings me to the unavoidable conclusion that Darwin was wrong.


Must be attributed to Mort Saul.

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A professed belief in popular religionist mythology has been business-as-usual politics since antiquity. It's a politician's ruse to claim kinship with the common people. Like kissing babies and eating blintzes. No big deal.

It becomes detrimental and foolish, however, when people try to implement civil legislation and foreign policy based on ancient folk legends, often in direct opposition to scientific evidence.

Evidence for evolution, for example, is clear, abundant, and overwhelming; it's not just a theory, it's a fact. Evidence for creationism, on the other hand, is non-existent. Yet the potential for children to be subjected to "education" in creationism in public schools is a very real threat. What will prevent classes in "racial purity" from being next on the agenda?

Anyone shown to be ignorant of or in denial of seventh/eighth grade science should be sent back to school, not to the White House. We need someone who makes decisions based on facts, supported by scientific evidence. Making decisions based on faith and scriptures may be appropriate for religious leaders, but NOT for our elected state and federal officials.

That means astrology, palmistry, phrenology, dowsing, seances, Ouija boards, Magic Eight-Balls, etc. are also disallowed as decision- and policy-making utilities. Just the facts, Ma'am.

Considering the academic hurdles required for entrance into a university in this country, e.g., the SAT test, it doesn't seem too very demanding to expect potential presidential candidates to take a Presidential Aptitude Test designed to reveal the basic intelligence and decision-making abilities of the applicants. Perhaps some reputable group like NOW or NAACP could sponsor such a test and publish the results.

We need a more meaningful way to assess the strengths and weaknesses of presidential candidates than a straw-poll of "who believes in God". At the very least, debate mediators could ask the balancing question: "Who believes in science?"

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"The undertones of panic recall nothing so much as Europeans agonising about Muslim immigrants in their midst, despite the fact that the majority of migrants here come from a western cultural background, being mainly Spanish-speaking and Christian. "We are becoming a bilingual nation," said one of the candidates, "and that is not good." A sentiment that would be entirely at home on the French or German right."

This could just as well be applied to Israel and the Palestinians as it could be to the US and immigrants. It's standard Orwellian practive - whip of 'fear of the other' and then claim that the select chosen few will lead you to salvation, or to nirvana. Aryanism, Zionism, manifest destiny, the Minutemen, the Israeli apartheid state, the South African apartheid state, the Croats and the Serbs, etc. etc. etc.

In all these cases, the select chosen few derive their power from their 'hotline to God' - a la Jerry Falwell and the rest of the television evangelists - who are all consigned to Dante's Inferno, by the way.

I'm guessing the 8th circle is where Falwell and the Repugnant religious right politicos will end up, head down in a hole - the home of those who engage in Fraud, Pimping and Seducing, Flattery, Political Corruption, and Hypocrisy.

As far as the collusion of religious leaders with totalitarian states, see John Cromwell's "Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pope Pius XII(Eugenio Pacelli)

...."By the middle of 1997, 1 was in a state of moral shock. The material I had gathered amounted not to an exoneration but to an indictment more scandalous than Hochhuth's. The evidence was explosive. It showed for the first time that Pacelli was patently, and by the proof of his own words, anti-Jewish. It revealed that he had helped Hitler to power and at the same time undermined potential Catholic resistance in Germany. It showed that he had implicitly denied and trivialized the Holocaust, despite having reliable knowledge of its true extent. And, worse, that he was a hypocrite, for after the war he had retrospectively taken undue credit for speaking out boldly against the Nazi persecution of the Jews."

The role that religious fanatacism played in WWII (Nazi belt buckles said "God is On Our Side") is still fresh in the minds of most Europeans - which is probably why they view Bush&Co. with such alarm - even though the elements of rightism fascism are still alive in most European countries.

The leaders of religious organizations are not to be trusted - they've simply preyed on people's good intentions in order to secure positions of wealth, luxury and power for themselves.

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Politicians are natural panderers. They have perfected the art of humbly going, hat in hand, to the public with their promises and turn into arrogant and condescending self-serving bastards once elected.
Pandering to 'god' is only the ultimate exercise of this revolting behavior.
Speaking only for myself, I want nothing to do with anyone who spends any portion of his day in prayer regardless of the direction of that prayer.

Our leaders need to be grounded in reality and not dependent on the assistance of some invisible entity.
People who pray are delusional and doubly so if they fancy that they're getting responses.

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As others have pointed out in this thread, the history of the political corruption of religion is monumental. When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, he explained that he had a vision of a glowing cross in the sky during a battle. The less pious suspect it was more because, with a belief in righteousness guaranteeing heaven, Christians were stalwart fighters.

The early church had a problem with believers dispatching themselves to get to the pearly gates ASAP. What was useful to console those eaten by the lions turned out to be not so useful for expansion of members.

Customary throughout history is that the people's religion has been the ruler's religion--as far back as we can see. Separation of church and state is a recent innovation. Somehow the fact that the separation has been so good for religion creates cognitive dissonance for piety--so it is just ignored.

But piety is not religion. Christians have the Biblical message to do their praying in solitude and even in a closet, rather than on display. That sets a standard for measuring the sincerity of convictions. Asking for a display of hands raised only proves the otiosity of the interviewer, Blitzer. But we already knew that from his mindless support of the invasion of Iraq.

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I was raised by liberal Methodist parents who considered evolution to be a scientific fact. One reason was the influence of my late father, Ed Scott, a career geologist and high-level executive for Union Oil of California, now Unocal.

Dad had an interpretation of Genesis that worked pretty well. I remember hum saying that no one knew how really long the first “days” of creation were. So when evangelicals claim the Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old, they are interpreting the Bible, not quoting it.

As for evolution, my father believed, as do I, that Homo sapiens share the same family tree with other primates -- on a very specialized limb that sprang from the main trunk eons ago. When we got souls is a different matter, however.

Believing God to be a curious entity, Dad figured He watched with fascination the advancement of humans beings until the time was right to give them spirituality, which occurred metaphorically in the biblical Garden of Eden -- probably when Cro-Magnon Man made his appearance 100,000 years ago.

A serious examination of my father’s religious beliefs will show they do not violate precepts in the Bible used by evangelists to refute evolution. Even so, for reasons I don’t understand -- ignorance, perhaps, or simple stubbornness -- evangelicals have rejected a reasoned and logical Christian approach to creation in favor of one that borders on the absurd. Such as believing that dinosaurs coexisted with humans.

That kind of nonsensical thinking by presidential candidates should automatically disqualify them from occupying the White House.

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Once again, America's Christian God supports each of her candidates for political office, just as this same God supported America's invasion of Iraq.

This same God (minus the Jesus guy) supports of course, the state of Israel and the taking of land from the Heathen Palestinians.

Of course, the Christian God is stronger and better than the Islam God (Mohammed), the Buddha Guy, Krishna, and all the rest.

Of course, also, the Christian God is the one God who wants Peace. The others, especially that Islam one, are just terrorists.

Welcome to America.

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...so that your neighbor won't ever have to pay your way and her tab, too.

On Tuesday, I watched a television debate between 10 Republican contenders, following a similar one between the Democratic hopefuls last Sunday. At this rate, election fatigue will set in before we've even reached election year.

I'll carefully review the candidates and then (probably) vote for my parties' candidate, saving myself 17 months worth of cable/dish bills. If you're getting HBO, you're probably up there around $100/month.

That's a lot of scratch to lose between now and then, scratch which could be poured into a tax-free retirement account (Roth IRA), or into a health-savings plan. It's especially alot of scratch to lose when one complains about said programming.

Incidentally, I agree whole-heartedly with this author, except for the obligatory use of the Nazi meme that afflicts young writers who don't know any better, and the requisite whining over the utterance of the word "God". The initial part of the article criticizing the ridiculousness of "debates" 17 months in advance was spot-on. Theses pseudo-debates, or rather, Moderate Celebrities!!! The New Reality-TV Show Starring Overpaid Windbag Moderators, With Special Guest Presidential Candidates for Comic Relief, doesn't seem to be any way to judge the merits of a candidates ideas. That's what platforms are for, in the few cases where we lack voting records now that we send Senators to Congress to become professional presidential candidates.

So it goes, nevertheless. Come next November, there will be one bleak certainty: we will continue to enjoy (or, more likely, not) 'the best damn politicians in the best damn republic that money can buy.'

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As we're a SECULAR nation by law and definition does religion enter into political discussions at all? How many true ninnies are out there, anyway? Do they really affect election outcomes that much-say as much as the fradulent manipulations of 2000 and 2004? It seems to me that the REAL issue here is fair and clean elections-not silly superstitutions.

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I had already closed the browser window. I was not going to leave another useless comment under this article that will be read for only a week at best. But some absurd force inside myself won't let me let it be.

This ariticle has got it right, of course. This is obvious. Everybody knows how ridiculous it is that ALL American politicians must profess belief in God. It is just another case of the Emperor being stark naked. Only, it is not a little boy who points out the pathetic truth that the mass fear of nonconformity nourishes, it is people like this writer, myself, and probably all the readers of AlterNet - you know, the silent majority - those people who are willing to admit they actually have a brain without, at the same time, seeking to follow rituals designed to make them look like they don't. That is the way frat houses, cults, secret societies, and futures markets work. It is a form of doublethink.

Fact: It was just over two months ago that California Representative Pete Stark (D, Fremont) made American history by admitting himself to be atheist.

The philosophy of absurdism suggests that creating meaning where there is none leads to troubles. The festering sickness that is modern America supports this thesis on a social level. The more deranged the country's behavior becomes, the more its deluded, stupified public (or at least about half of it) demands that leadership be based on something so intangible as faith, which cannot even be reasonably described. Many people who have it don't even realize it, or don't feel particularly proud of it. Many who lack it, proclaim the most loudly that they have it, even claiming sometimes to understand it and thus set out proudly to teach it to others.

The saddest irony is that one of the driving forces of the irrational "War on Terror" is essentially summed up by the word Islamophobia. The most deviously employed scare tactics used by the neocons and their minions to manipulate public opinion preyed upon the very idea that they, the Muslim extremists, were extraordinarily terrifying because they were capable of horrendous acts due to their religious zealotry. Say again?

If one cannot see the connection between this "religious hangup" in American politics and the decline and fall of the American Empire, then one is an idiot.

Plug for my website: depleted uranium forum

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I don't understand why a bigger deal hasn't been made about the following quote of Hilary's from the CNN Faith and Politics special:

"But I -- I am very grateful that I had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world thought."

Isn't this one of the signature problems of Bush, that he is going to do what he believes is right regardless of what the rest of the world, including the American public, thinks is right? I was already planning to vote green or independent, but even if I hadn't, this would be a deal breaker in my voting for Clinton, if(when?) she passes the Democrat litmus test. Listening to your own interpretation of what "God" thinks should not take first place over listening to what the American public wants, or listening to what the experts on the reality of the particular matter say.

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Please stop talking about me all the time.


Love,

God

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I sit a laugh at all the fear and anger towards God that is printed on this web site called Alter Net. It wasn't all that many years ago that being a christian was the norm and people respected your faith whether they agreed or not. Today how ever it is a different story. The fearful among us want to equate christians to terrorists and God as some Psycopath. Of course it isn't hard to define who those are that do not believe. Those who do not believe and thus write such hatred towards those who do believe is really no different an attitude than those extremists that provocate death to the infedels.

The historical facts dating back to the time of the original colonists and on through the time of the actual Declaration of Independence, the many debates over our Constitution and Bill of Rights, the Supreme Court, our Congress, and the Federalist Papers, as well as countless other documents all makes very clear that the United States was fashioned upon Christian Principles.

The fact that we have the first amendment is clearly a christian understanding that you cannot force someone to believe and thus Religion was protected and no particular Religion was to be established by government such as existed in Britain. The seperation of church and state is an example of the fear of the faithless to use a private letter and fabricate a religion of athieism in order to twist the first amendment and rewrite history and destroy christianity.

The book "Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States by Benjamin P. Morris" of 1864, is one book that totally puts to rest the foolishness of the ACLU and those who are trying to rewrite our nations history and destroy christianity today.

Today's politician's are generally high classed prostitutes who sell their souls to the corporate interests and see We the People as stupid and silly. They tell us what they think we want to hear according to the polls they read. The fact that they may say the are christian's is meaningless because it's all posturing to get votes. Unfortunately the ignorant actually believe that these political prostitutes represent christian's today. Such foolishness. Such a waste of time and energies over nothing.

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the image of the street signs made me think of one of my faves, in downtown Knoxville, TN there is an intersection of Gay and Union streets. Funny how that happened in one of the most fanatical Bible-belt states. Subliminal? Prophetic? Who knew what the "founding fathers" of that town were thinking, maybe they were trying to lay out a roadmap towards a more equitable society, maybe they were projecting forth with their innermost desires. Who knows....

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It's so very nice, isn't it, that our candidates all have God in their hearts - - at least during the campaign. I imagine that they would all proclaim that apple pie is their favorite, that they wash their hands before dinner, say a little prayer each time before they sit down to a meal, and all indulge in the great American myths - - just to be on the safe side. But please, don't let CNN ask any really substantial questions, because they might have to avoid giving a straight answer or even lie - - and lying, you know, is a sin.

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It's as simple as the very real difference between the real Christianity of Sojourners (to take just one example) on the left, that espouses following the life and death PACIFIST example of Jesus Christ as summed up in the Sermon on the Mount, and the militant corrupted Fascist Militant Nazi Christianist movement of the right, which should be accurately recognized as the co-option of Christianity by those who would use it as a tool to seek more power and wealth at ANY cost.

THAT'S the difference. The Clinton's, for all their NECESSARY duplicty TO MERELY REMAIN ALIVE in THIS country, at THIS time, with THOSE people in charge, obviously belong to the former group; the so-called "Religious Right" as given birth to by the demon Falwell and his fallen comrades like Delay, Haggerty, Swaggart, Ralph Reed, a slew of others, and which gave us the Emperor Bush King George the Last, are obviously the latter.

It really behooves us all, especially those in journalism, to LEARN, REMEMBER, and draw a strong distinction of the difference between true Jesus Christian Christianity as lived, taught, and died by His example, and the political warmongering movement Karl Rove and the fascist GOP right have corrupted it into with bones throw promises of "saving" "babies" and endless wealth and power and "god's" "kingdom" here on earth from one corner of the globe throughout the other, though endless war against Islam and premptive bombing of innocent women and children to "save them" and bringing them "christian" "democracy" (code name for propped-up dictators in puppet states).

Those who are not in Christianity do not realize it, but an enormous schism is developing in Christianity itself, one between those who are following antiChristian leaders and clergy into the hell on earth of an "endless" "war" "against" "terror" that can never be won, and the others that are pulling back from the brink and are realizing the error of their ways and finally seeing their leaders for the demons from hell they are and have been from the very start.

It is akin to former Bush supporters shaking their heads, and finally asking themselve "What the HELL was I THINKING?"

And it promises to be a bigger restoration of True Jesus Christianity as lived, taught, AND DIED RATHER THAN FIGHT ANYONE AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON by Jesus Christ Himself, than even the Reformation speaheaded by Martin Luther, Tyndale, and others.

And the more attention drawn to the obvious and blatant distinctions between militant fascist Christianism and true Christianity, especially by non-believers who usually prefer to skirt the issue entirely, the sooner Christianism and its fruit, The Fourth Reich, can be stamped out like the Third Reich before it.

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Tony Blair was much more sincere in his faith than Bush (in fact, Bush appears to be an atheist). And, regardless, despite all the supposed advantages of atheism, UK policies are just as unjust as ours; they provide 100 per cent backing for all America's imperial crimes without much public scruple. At least here we can claim, with some justification, that we were duped.

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Islam soon enough.

Oh, you don't want to convert to Islam? That's less of a problem than you might think. The thing is you don't get a choice in the matter.

Long live snooty Brits looking down on us even as their continent is taken over and ravaged by the most dangerous and fundamentalist religion in the history of man.

I'm atheist and while the U.S. is hardly a friendly place for someone unwilling to at least pay lip service to Christianity I acknowledge that Europe doesn't seem to be doing much better with their "secular" society.

All I see in Europe is declining birth rates, negative population growth among non-immigrants, and massive waves of Muslims moving in and taking over on the generosity of European tax payers.

They're digging their own graves my friends. Australia is almost as secular as Europe and last I checked they still have actual borders and immigration controls unlike the U.S. and Europe.

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"Jesus -- I found myself inwardly exclaiming, as a post-Christian European -- Jesus, what century are we in?"

A "post-Christian European." I guess that means you are enlightened and all of us gullible little Christian Americans are just Cretins? I'm envious. Could you sound more snobbish? I can just imagine what that sounds like with a British accent.

Gee whiz daddy, can I be a "post-Christian European" too some day!?

American politics certainly has it's problems, but I don't need Mr. Garton Ass (oops, I mean Ash) to tell me about it. Why don't you go salute the Union Jack, colonize another country, open a Bass Ale, and leave us alone. I'm disappointed in AlterNet for printing this trash.

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Did God cure this unfortunate lady on his own or was there any medical science involved? Where does one end and the other begin? And, would the suffering of a stroke be considered God's will and was his will thwarted if medical science was indeed enlisted?

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Neo-fascism and the religious right

Fascist movements in Europe prior to World War II were led by men who claimed to be Christians and who merged religious emphases with nationalism and severe discrimination against minorities, homosexuals, Gypsies, Jews, and communists. They engaged in government sponsorship of religion. All of these moves violated genuine Christian values.

In the United States today the only large movement publicly proclaiming similar values is led by religious radicals such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Randall Terry. They are organized in various political groups, such as the Christian Coalition, which infiltrated the Republican Party and publicly advocates government sponsorship of religion; Operation Rescue and the Lambs of God, which engage in terrorist tactics to intimidate women, physicians, and their families; and the Coalition on Revival, which advocates execution of adulterers, homosexuals, and others and which links various radical groups together.

Some things never change. This is a standard characteristic of totalitarian states - Stalin persecuted the same groups that Hitler did, after all, though he tended to focus on his perceived enemies. Loyal Marxists rush to Stalin's defense the same way that loyal Catholics rush to the defense of Hitler's Pope. "Stalin saved you from the Nazis, you ungrateful tool!" and "Pope Pius saved thousands of Jews from the death camps". (Actually, Stalin had signed a secret nonagression pact with Hitler and had a nervous breakdown when the Nazis invaded).

This is why Jefferson, Franklin, et al included separation of Church and State in the US Constitution - something that the religious right has already attempted to subvert on multiple occasions. They knew the kind of corruption that arose when bishops got into bed with kings, and wanted nothing to do with it.

There is a very good movie that touches on these themes: Pan's Labyrinth

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“Every religion in the world believes that every other religion is superstition. And they’re all correct.”

"What we see in contention here with Jihad on the one hand and McWorld/McCrusade on the other hand, are historically outmoded strata among colonized and oppressed humanity up against historically outmoded ruling strata of the imperialist system. These two reactionary poles reinforce each other, even while opposing each other. If you side with either of these ‘outmodeds,’ you end up strengthening both."

Bob Avakian, Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA

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On any subject for any debate just ask them,
What would Jesus do? Better yet Who would Jesus bomb? The Christian right luv that one!

I'm so impressed with how much the right knows about God. The democrats just want to get to know him too, you know personally.
Like the right who act like they just had a latte with him at Starbucks and got the low down on good and evil du jeurs.

The only one not involved in all this absurdity is God. If she did participate first thing would be, to smack 'em up side their head. All of them, but I have a feeling that she's got her fingers in her ears going la la la la la la .... 'til the election is over!!! The lies and rhetoric can get to God too.

That's what I'm going to do 'til about 4 months before the election. By then the media will regurgitate all the crap we're hearing now... and I can save myself the headaches.

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I posted the earlier remark about being proud to be an American. To say why I will tell a story. Several years ago I was asked to entertain a man from Rwanda. It was his first trip to the U.S. (he came for a conference and got here early). Since he had just arrived I told him I would show him my community. We drove through the country and saw flourishing farms; we went through town and saw the mall and other stores; we saw schools; we even stopped at a park and watched a ball game for a while. None of this precipitated any remark positive or negative. Then we passed our local Rescue Mission with a big figure of Jesus on the front. He asked what that was. I told him the Rescue Mission. What do they do and who does it? Mostly Christian people (some others) take care of the poor and homeless because they believe no one should be without a place to sleep or a meal to eat. Meals are free 365 days a year. All a person needs to do is walk in. My new friend was silent for a while and then said, "America is a great nation."
I have been in many countries. I have been in all the continents (except Australia). I don't see this in any other land. Particularly I do not see it in Muslim lands, or secularist lands. This once was something that could be found in Europe but as far as I know, not today. I'm proud to be an American (and a Christian).

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Who is "God" going to endorse or not endorse for President? Is God a Politician? If God is a Politician, then God is not God. The proof is in the pudding. Now, whatever it is, if the result is war and hatred, then the initial actions are surely wrong and should be abandoned. Therefore, if the Politician believes in war to bring peace and solve problems, then you know the Politician is wrong. Don't vote for this Politician.

And, if you practice a religon, believe in God, are a mystic or an atheist, it does not matter. The Dalai Lama said, "My religion is kindness, don't be a Buddhist, just practice Compassion." He is right about that. Enough said.

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or did I get the terms confused? Mohammed (or Muhammed- I can never seem to get these spelling correct) is the 2nd, by a hair, most popular name for a baby boy in the UK this year according the census. Crazed islamic 'youths' are creating havoc in the suburbs of Paris (and even on of the main train depots). The islamic Moraccans, primarily, have ruined a good part of Holland with their over-crowded and unkempt houses and surly youths milling about in the streets often on illegal mopeds. Besideds stabbing and killing artists and involving themselves in terror plots. In Germany you have the terrorists cells but also the Turks running around. In Spain, you have the illegals invaders from moslem Africa. Even to the point of riding atop trains and in unseaworthy boats. In Serbia you have terrorists burning churches and plotting operations in Europe and the Middle East (besides the drug and sex slavery trade.) Don't you mean pre-islamic Europe? It is not post-Christian. It is pre-islamic.
ps: I'm sure this post will be considered offensive simply because I used 'Islam'. If I was critical, as I am often, of 'Jew' or 'Christian' it would be acceptable. I know of the double-standard.

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Christianity-there's a sucker born every minute and alot of tamberine shakers and hallelujah shouters to take his money. Think not? How is it possible for the Son of God, the Messiah if you will, to be rejected by the vast majority of the world's population as either, yet spawn an infinite variety of tub-thumbers among which there is no commonality other than money-grubbing on the one hand and conning voters on the other. I prefer to regard it as the inerrant word of the huckster and if you prefer one to the other or none at all, then so be it. Selah!

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The republican candidates are pandering to the christian right. it is probable that they really don't believe in most of the nonsense ideas they claim to adhere to. At this stage of campaign they are talking to the core primary voters, once they win the nomination, they'll modify their message by making "clarification" , so it does not sounds so crazy. it is reported that 20% of americans believe that the lord is coming before this year is over. Incidently, 20% of americans believe Bush is doing a fantastic job.

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And that's being totally out of touch with reality. How did we wind up with people running for office that by all appearances have no clue when it comes to the middle east, or much of anything else for that matter.

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Because politicians use religion to justify their actions, in many ways Christianity in the USA is associated, especially in the Islamic world, with the following:

Illegal invasion of Iraq without justification and certainly in violation of international law. The continued presence of USA troops to prop up the current government there. Various accusations of torture and brutality in this war as well. Because the US president was highly supported by the Christian Right, Christianity in the Arab World is seen as supporting the war, the invasion, and atrocities.

Israeli incursions into Lebanon and the use of targeted killings, kidnappings, and the like under the pretext of "state security." Many so-called "Christians," especially on the right, support Israel, along with the US government unquestioningly, and believe Israel has claims to the land under ancient biblical pretext.

I mention this for those who would criticize what they perceive as the behavior of Islamic and Arab minorities in Western countries. From another point of view, it looks quite different.

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According to the book of Genesis, in the beginning there was nothing but God. The story goes on to state that God made everything that is in existance today, correct? Everything means everything!!! The good the worst evil and the in between. God made the rules, gave us the choices, yet punishes us severely for choosing the wrong. How can anyone believe the story of God once they have read the Bible? The Bible is a terrible read at best. It is truly amazing that people have taken to heart this sloppy story and perpetuated it for so many centuries. In addition to simply believing in it, they have burned, tortured, murdered and stolen in the name of God. That the presidential candidates have claimed to believe in God tells us they are fools or liars or both. Let us take responsibility for our own actions for the sake of survival and compassion for others and begin to live nurturing lives. Competition kills. Too bad we are way beyond the point of no return.

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An attempt at something intelligent in this typically American mix of slavering ultra-rightists and clueless, woolly-headed left-liberals:

Dear Mr. Ash, I would suggest that you give up on the hopeless task of trying the triangulate the United States of America with the rest of the world. In historical terms you've set yourself an impossible task, as the U.S.A. is clearly on track to fade into irrelevance - delayed only by such as yourself who will not cease feeding into the myth of the supposed "importance" of the so-called "world's only superpower". You merely feed that all consuming sense of self-importance that official "America" loves to swill and then project back onto the world and its own people for overawing effect. You prop up in this way the fraud of "American power" every bit as much as the central banks of Japan and China prop up the U.S. Treasury with their vast holdings of worthless dollars. But "another world" is not only possible, it is actually emerging before our very eyes, no matter what we would like to believe.

Naturally, the many details of the present historical trajectory cannot be described here, but the sum result is that in the U.S.A. the world is confronted with a narrow, corrupt, profoundly conservative and deeply frightened state-capitalist oligarchy desperate to recover the global hegemony that it feels slipping from its grasp. They have garbed themselves - indeed they have been obsequiously garbed by far too many left-wing commentators, these "body-slaves to power", in neo-Roman manner, fatuously styling themselves as some sort of "Empire" precisely in the manner described in the Eighteenth Brumiare, as farce. But the reality is that of a pathetic, universally hated and despised claque of later-day Catos and Ciceros whom, like the tragic originals, and for the same reason, are headed for the proverbial trash heap as they are incapable of rule over any such would be - and never to be - global Empire.

Take a page from Emmanuel Todd's "Apres Le Empire": 1) ignore, and then 2) contain, the U.S.A. Ignore it and watch the beast that rules that country shrivel and die. Contain it, because as it dies it will lash out, causing much destruction, as we see in Iraq. You do the people of North America no favors in continuing to inflate their own false sense of self-importance as Madelaine Albrights' supposed "indispensable country". Only with the thorough deflation of that false sense will the people of this continent be free to change their lives, build anew, and rejoin the human race.

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It's sad that our presidential candidates are stuck on stupid. "God" like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny ought to be left to mythology and fairy tales, not politics.

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I find it ludicrous that believing in something that cannot be proven is viewed in this country as somehow better than being rational. To be religious is considered laudatory, while trusting in the scientific method and upgrading one's beliefs according to empirical evidence is, to many Americans, evidence of lack of character.

When something is, in essence, rather ridiculous, it's necessary to get other people to believe in it in order to make it less silly. There is nothing more believable about the myth of Jesus dying for humanity's sake and rising from the dead than there is about the myths of the Greek gods. Anyone who adhered to the notions of Zeus and Athena would probably be laughed at by the majority of people world-wide. But the belief in Jesus as God masquerading as a human in order to alleviate sin is found to be admirable.

A recent article in the Nation concerning the "new" atheists pointed out that not all Americans actually believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god and that polls are often misleading in their assessments of religious committment. However, the general culture rewards belief and chastises lack thereof. It's absurd.

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One thing, Mr Ash? Sorry, but their whorish devotion to Israel trumps any claim Jesus might have on any of these phonies (Kucinich excepted).

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As a progressive, gay member of the United Church of Christ I am really excited to see what role truly progressive faith will have in this election. As many may know already, Barack Obama is a UCC member. It will be interesting to see how he handles the issue of marriage equality given that our denomination is in support of LGBT marriage.

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