COMMENTS: 37
Will Electronic Voting Reform Create New Ways to Steal Elections?
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If history is a guide, political machinations will outsmart the latest efforts to bring accountability to America's newest voting machines. Recent books on how American elections have been stolen -- from the founding of the country to 2004 -- suggest voting machinery may change over time, but sleazy partisan tactics do not: they adapt to the newest way of counting votes. And when grassroots election integrity activists add their experience of wrestling with new electronic voting to this continuum, it seems doubtful that American elections will be cleaned up.
"It is the same game," said Rebecca Mercuri, one of the country's top electronic voting experts and an opponent of the House bill. "They will just now do it electronically. The bill makes it seem like something will be done. It will cause the public to be complacent. That is very scary. People will not be watching. They will not be looking at elections."
"It is not just the electronic machines. It is a pandemic in our political culture," said Tracy Campbell, a University of Kentucky historian and author of Deliver the Vote: A History of Election Fraud, an American Political Tradition 1742-2004. "I am not sure why we are so surprised by it. We cheat in baseball. We cheat on our wives. Why not cheat in elections?"
This week soon after Congress reconvenes, the House is expected to approve H.R. 811, The Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2007. The bill is intended to bring accountability to the newest election technology, the paperless electronic voting machines that were ushered into American elections after Florida's punch-card ballot debacle in 2000. After hanging chads became the most high-profile feature of that presidential vote count, Congress passed the Help America Vote Act, or HAVA, and appropriated $3.9 billion for states to buy a new generation of voting machines. By November 2006, one-third of the country was voting on paperless touch-screen voting machines.
Once introduced, the problems with these machines became well-known. Most notably there was no way of knowing if the data put into the machines -- votes -- would be accurately reported at the end of the day. Moreover, academics and others discovered that the machines were poorly designed, but the software and performance problems were all-but ignored by the independent testing labs that were supposed to certify their accuracy. In numerous elections in 2002 and 2004, voters saw their choices jump between candidates; votes were lost as totals were compiled, and election officials often spent more time tallying results than they had with the voting systems they replaced. By last fall's election, the machines' performance had improved somewhat, but there were notable exceptions, such as in Sarasota, FL, where 18,000 votes vanished in a close U.S. House race. While that was publicized, grassroots activists later discovered numerous other lost votes, or undercounts, such as in Miami and Dade Counties, where one in 10 ballots did not record a vote for Florida attorney general: 70,000 votes went missing.
While some of these problems have become well known, it is important to note that it wasn't flawed technology in Florida that kept Democrat Al Gore from the White House. More pivotal to the vote count were partisan decisions by then Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, a Republican, who allowed overseas ballots -- allegedly from the military -- to be counted, even though many lacked postmarks and those were suspected to be fraudulent. Amid that controversy the Supreme Court intervened, stopping the recount and declaring George W. Bush the winner.
"Florida was a great case of our eyes being off the target," Campbell said. "We were looking at butterfly ballots (punch cards). But it was the absentee ballots that came in after the election that Katherine Harris certified that gave the election to George W. Bush. I bet plenty of grieving military families don't realize it was absentee ballots that brought us the war in Iraq."
In short, political manipulation of the process -- on top of flawed election machinery -- was the determining factor in Florida's presidential election in 2000, and for that matter in Ohio in 2004, and in other earlier presidential elections.
Congress's response to the latest crisis in flawed election machinery has been led by Rep. Rush Holt, a New Jersey Democrat who taught physics at Princeton University before entering politics. His bill, H.R. 811, seeks to fix the problems with the latest electronic voting machines by requiring manufacturers add a paper print out so individuals can verify their vote. The bill also creates new audit and recount procedures based on that paper trail. It also allows people who sign confidentiality agreements to view still-secret vote counting software. And it imposes new conflict-of-interest rules for voting machine makers and the testing labs that certify their product's accuracy. Finally, it provides money to counties to make these changes.
Proponents, such as People for the American Way, say the bill may not solve every problem, but makes significant progress. But the solution that many grassroots election integrity activists want -- dumping the touch screen machines -- is not in the bill. And the opponents have other worries. They say a paper receipt legally is not the same as a ballot marked by a voter, which will complicate recounts. They don't trust this paper trail will mirror the count in the voting machine's computer's memory. They don't want any secret software. And they worry new audit procedures could allow election insiders to tamper with reported results, which would be a return to counting votes in smoke-filled rooms.
"It's not better than nothing," Mercuri said. "It forces feeds a bill onto the states. The states have to follow certain things for federal elections, but not for local elections. The technology is still a problem. H.R 811 doesn't solve many of the problems, but it creates a new invitation to insider election fraud."
Mercuri, who has been a poll worker for two decades and whose engineering Ph.D. is on electronic voting technology said H.R. 811 fails to address both the technical problems of electronic machines and the political problems of partisan tampering with vote counts. She points to numerous examples from last fall's election to show how the bill's reforms would play out in the real political world -- and it is not pretty.
First, Mercuri said the 2006 election showed the new voting machines are not always accurate, despite their modern high-tech appearance. She cited litigation following a judicial race in Columbus, Ohio, where the county election board's director testified that in 86 percent of the precincts the county's new electronic machines did not give accurate vote count totals. The number of voters who signed precinct signature books -- the people who showed up, signed in and voted -- equaled the electronic count in only 14 percent of Franklin County's precincts. "In some precincts the numbers were off by single digits, in others they were off by dozens," she said. "Usually, it's a single voter here or there." The county's election director told the judge the discrepancies were "typical," Mercuri said.
Then Mercuri pointed to New Jersey, where new state-issued rules say voter will only get three attempts to vote on a new electronic machine, even if the voting machine does not accurately register their choice in any of those tries. Problems of electronic votes hopping between candidates dates back to at least 2002, when it was reported by some journalists across the country. The burden of proof should be on the machines and local officials to run smooth elections, Mercuri said, not on a confused voter. And she cited a 2006 municipal election in California that ended up in court, where a local judge simply rejected using the electronic voting machine's paper trail in a recount despite state law -- the same paper record that is the backbone of H.R. 811.
But the biggest problem Mercuri saw involves the bill's audit procedures, where local election officials will compare the newly required paper trail to electronically produced vote totals -- to ensure an accurate vote count. It took many decades in the early 20th century to get past the era where ballot boxes were routinely stuffed by local political bosses who manufactured the results they wanted -- regardless of the actual vote. That problem eventually was solved when ballot boxes, once sealed, could only be opened in court before a judge. But H.R. 811's new audit provisions will allow local officials to open the ballot boxes to verify the count -- which Mercuri said was an open invitation to tinkering with paper records and the vote count.
"The audits require the breaking of the seals on the ballot boxes," she said. "It allows the opening of the ballot boxes. It is not done in front of judges. It is done in the back room again. Handful of ballots will be taken out and handfuls will be put in. God only knows what will go on."
What is notable about Mercuri's litany of concerns is these same problems -- from inaccurate machines, to manipulating vote totals, to mediocre or possibly fraudulent election administration -- have plagued American elections for decades.
"That is the point of my book," Campbell said. "This is not just something that popped up in November 2000."
Deleting or swapping votes between candidates was a political fact of life when America used mechanical lever voting machines in the mid-20th century. Miscounting votes did not start with today's electronic voting machines, but with punch-card voting machines that arrived in the 1960s when some election officials discovered how to tinker with the cards that programmed county tabulators. Manufacturers of the older mechanical lever voting machines even testified in Congress how this was done, to try to stop the spread of the newer punch-card machines. Padding the count by voting for people who did not show up at the polls or by stuffing ballot boxes goes back to George Washington's day and even elected John F. Kennedy to the presidency in 1960.
Under H.R. 811, voters may soon get a paper receipt of their vote, but it might not match the precinct total at the end of the night. There might be some access to proprietary vote-counting software, but it will be hard to prevent software-savvy partisans from switching or deleting votes. Unscrupulous election workers, feeling justified by political necessity, could cast ballots for people who did not show up at the polls, or conceivably could alter the paper trail -- with new access to the ballot box during the audit phase of the election.
"It's an important symbolic step to say we want to have transparent verified elections," said Andrew Gumbel, author of Steal This Vote: Dirty Elections and the Rotten History of Democracy in America, speaking of H.R. 811. "But it's only one small piece of the puzzle. Even in regards to the paper trail, what guarantee do you have that the paper trail is more accurate than the count of the machine?"
In more than two centuries of American elections, Gumbel said politicians and the public have often been swayed by arguments that technical improvements in election machinery would bring clearer and fairer elections. "There has been an illusion that if you fix the technology, the rest will be fine," he said. "In the book, I repeatedly show that when the stakes are high, and one party can do things, things will happen."
As Republican Rep. Peter King, R-NY, famously told filmmaker Alexandra Pelosi a year before George W. Bush defeated John Kerry in 2004, "It's all over but the counting, and we'll take care of the counting."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rune on Jun 4, 2007 1:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only justifications I have ever heard electronic voting machines is that they can count faster and that they can be adapted to accommodate blind people. But blind people are not any more well served than the public at large by a vote counting method that is notably prone to error and tampering. And it is nice to find out the results of elections relatively soon, but exit polls can usually do that for us (and always did before we started "adjusting" them to match questionable counts provided by software driven machines) and in the close elections where the exit polls can't discern a winner, having a reliable paper ballot that can be counted and recounted to verify an accurate count is all the more important.
So, again, why do we need electronic voting? We know what we have lost--more or less any claim to a form of a valid democracy at all--but what have we gained? And does anyone remember faster election results being a mjor concern of voters before certain politicians with ties to the voting machine companies starting championing them? Seems to me, long lines, confusing and overly long ballots, inconvenient hours, problems with registration and finding one's polling place, and intimidation of some voters have always been the real problems. Electronic voting machines don't address any of those issues in any meaningful way.
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» RE: Yes, we do need electronic voting?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Canada, pop. 30 million, still has all paper ballots
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» All software associated with electronic voting should be open source, no exceptions.
Posted by: lessbread
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ateo on Jun 4, 2007 4:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I highly doubt I'll ever bother to vote again.
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Jun 4, 2007 4:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Somewhat stupidly it appears, I assumed that this would be as big a priority to them as it is to me. How could they be unaware that Florida was stolen in 00 and Ohio in 04? It is absolutely inexplicable to me that they can be satisfied with any "magic box" solution.
It is possible have honest elections in this country - with the tide turning blue as it has, I hope someone can explain to me why one of the methods to assure that isn't the top priority for elected Democrats.
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» What - and be calleded a whacko?
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
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Posted by: Uncle Crabby on Jun 4, 2007 5:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Castro has offered- nobody called him back
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: diogenes on Jun 4, 2007 5:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jun 4, 2007 6:23 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Bad idea
Posted by: fanny666
» If you want to shame them, protest naked like they do in Nigeria. :)
Posted by: lessbread
» Noooo!
Posted by: weatherking
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jun 4, 2007 6:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a good list of URLs at the end of the book.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 4, 2007 7:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 4, 2007 8:26 AM
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Posted by: HughScott on Jun 4, 2007 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» They've thought of that too.
Posted by: fanny666
» THAT
Posted by: weatherking
» RE: To hell with machines. Everyone should vote by absentee ballot and write in their own candidates.
Posted by: kellysgarden
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Posted by: kellysgarden on Jun 4, 2007 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They told how there were always elections held, supposedly giving the outward appearance they were somehow democratic. But they said, even though they voted, they all knew their votes didn't mean anything - the people who counted the votes were the ones who ultimately decided.
It appears we are now no better than East Germany of the 1980s.
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» RE: ast Germany and communist voting
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: Krain61 on Jun 4, 2007 12:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who thinks that electronis voting could be fare is nuts.
Don't people use that system to steal your idenity?
I refuse to vote in a country where we no longer have paper ballots.
I think in Russia they would have a more fare election than has been
the case and will continue to be the case in this country.
We have lost our Freedoms.
I hear people only talk about Democrats or Republicans{both crooks}
I have yet heard a canidate talk about repealing the Patriot Act or repealing
the Minilaws Bush signed taking our rights away.I never hear one I-o-ta
about it not one! In Russia you expect it but here in the Great ole USA.
Yes I expect them to get there bucket of sand and bend us over and if you
just look at what there doing I tell you I'm getting pretty sore back there.
I think voting machines should be outlawed. We tell other country how they
should hold elections but with the system we have who will they be electing..
GWB.. "Georges World Blunders"
I wonder why anyone would think electronic voting is better.
Look at the viruses that computers get. A good hacker can get in any computer
which means most likely a hacker is helping build the computers and making
a hefty profit from the ones getting elected.
Americans are suppose to be so smart and live in the greatest country but tell
me why we let these crooks control our food supply our water supply our gas
supply force insurance on us and countless other things..They say it's for our
own good but why how is that so when we now make more with less buying
power and the foods unhealthy and you name it the price has increased.
Yea you vote either party in and well have more of the same but be perpared
to loose much more this next round.. We need to get honest Media..lol
If you listen to other world leaders you can see what our leaders are up to.
Control of the whole world and not just us. And we me and you are footing the bill!
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 4, 2007 1:31 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) Vote only on paper ballots using an indelible ink pen. This is an absolute requirement.
2) Verifiable machine counting of ballots. Rule #1 - no private proprietary equipment or software can be used. All technical specifications must be open to public scrutiny.
- Use an optical scanner to read the ballot. No connections to phone lines or wireless networks can be allowed. The results at the end of the day must be burned onto a CD and transported by registered courier to precinct headquarters. Another CD must also be burned, but will remain locked in the machine for later cross-checking.
- The onboard electronics of the optical scanning machine must be checked by an independent auditor to verify that they match the public specifications - just like electronic gambling machines in casinos
-The optical scanner must produce a copy of it's vote tally for each voter, which the voter can keep
- All paper ballots are then stored in locked boxes for a certain period of time - one year would be appropriate - so that physical recounts are possible.
3) The voter registration cannot be tampered with, as it was by Karl Rove and GW Bush in the recent caging scandal. One of the easiest ways to do this is to link voter registration to state drivers licenses.
- this proposal, to automatically register voters when they get their drivers licenses, has been fought tooth and nail by many elitist politicians, by but especially by Republicans. Why? It would vastly increase the voter registration of the 'lower classes' - and the Republicans know they'd lose every election if that was the case, as do the corporate Democrats.
4) Ban private corporations from any involvement in the voting process. Elections must be funded and run by government employees, not by private interests.
This kind of voting system would be largely immune to tampering, and would guarantee that most eligible voters were registered (everyone has a driver's license, right?). There would be no 'hanging chad' controversies. If you see any problems with it, please let me know.
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» RE: How to run a clean election:
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: unity1 on Jun 4, 2007 1:51 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if elections in your country have been 'stolen' since the 1800 then how can you call yourselves a democracy - that word is the BIG myth
take a moment to comprehend reality
your congress is made up of multi millionaires and a growing number of billionares - right?
they all campaign for hundreds and thousands of dollars - millions of dollars goes to make up their campaign to be elected - its a business - NOW here's the crunch
what business in its right mind - after spending millions of dollars on its candidates would leave the deciding factor to YOU the unwashed public !!!!
you live in the land of illusion of celuiod dreams - and that is what your democracy has been - The only good thing GW has done for the world is to render visible the illusion
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Posted by: shanti on Jun 4, 2007 4:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Regrettably HR 811 does not address the elephant in the room. HR 811 does not outlaw the continued widespread use of a method of vote tabulation that is so fundamentally and irretrievably flawed that at its worst might only give the appearance of an election. Touch screen (DRE) voting machines are convenient, pleasant and alluring but nearly impossible to implement with adequate security. Computer experts who know the limitations of the technology, readily acknowledge the inherent difficulty of building voting technology that is sufficiently secure and reliable and auditable. With voting technology, programmers face the herculean task of developing software for a product that is likely to be under attack from individuals who are trying to subvert its operations. The development and rigorous testing required to build and maintain a sufficiently secure and reliable voting technology would ultimately be cost prohibitive. Jason Kitcat, a British open source software developer, concluded after three years of research that "making electronic voting sufficiently secure would be nigh on impossible, especially when you had to keep it anonymous and auditable."
We must not trust the recording of our vote to unobservable memory chips and data bases. Thousands of votes can be altered undetected by a few insiders or by outsiders if modems are used to transfer votes between precincts. We can outlaw the use of modems in elections but how do we know those laws are going to be enforced? Why are we paying extraordinary sums of taxpayer money to purchase voting machines that digitally record unobservable votes. DRE's require constant, complicated, expensive, security procedures that are seldom implemented. We need to do away with digital vote counting altogether and return to paper ballots.
Our GAO has now twice enumerated the many known ways that electronic vote tallies can be altered without detection. This information has been widely circulated on the web. Technicians who service voting machines, and many partisan election officials know that is is trivially easy to hack central tabulators and/or install malicious software in DRE's. On election day we have only one chance to get the vote count recorded accurately. Citizens are disenfranchised when DRE's break down or flip votes, or when VVPAT paper rolls jam. Citizens are disenfranchised when uncertified software is installed by dishonest voting machine vendors. Even if truly independent testing labs examine software code that is not proprietary, it is highly unlikely that subtle malicious code would be detected.
A transparent election system is essential to maintain the confidence of the voter. Herein lies the essential flaw inherent in all electronic vote tabulation systems. Vote counting that takes place inside a machine is not visible and therefore not transparent. Continuing to allow the use of DRE's with a verified paper trail is like putting lipstick on a pig. Many reputable election protection advocates and computer security experts consider DRE's with an add on paper trail to be "worse than useless because they provide an illusion of validation". Keep in mind it is entirely possible for the paper receipt generated by the touch screen to show one candidate while the computer memory records a different candidate. Please contact your representatives and ask them to not pass HR 811 unless it includes an unqualified ban on the use of all DRE's.
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Posted by: marydon2 on Jun 4, 2007 7:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 4, 2007 7:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without a paper ballot as either a back-up or primary piece of evidence, there is and never will be actual proof of how a vote was cast.
Just the way the "Rangers," and the "Pioneers" want it to be.
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Posted by: bobiam on Jun 4, 2007 7:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
UnEasyOne wonders why Dems don't scream relentlessly for simple verifiable ballots and counting: Maybe our National Security Agency has enough information over politicians to bend them as they wish. And tell them to keep quiet.
HughScott has the right answer: Everyone should vote by absentee ballot.
Thoughtcriminal has the best idea to begin solving the election problems.
Unity1 says "get real." Thanks Unity for the excellent idea.
shanti also votes for paper ballots. Good position shanti.
So my vote and position is for paper ballots and 100% absentee voting for all federal elections.
And lets get the 100 million eligible but unregistered voters to get registered and vote for a new third (second?) Independent party.
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» Hooray for the suggestion of a third party
Posted by: kellysgarden
» Thanks for all the comments
Posted by: srosenfeld
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 5, 2007 1:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Make every candidate publicly and in writing promise to get back to PAPER BALLOTS: no computer sysems which can be easily reprogrammed. Make the Candidate agree to step down IF she/he doesn't get this election reform done within two years of taking office.
OR simply support and vote for Congressman Ron Paul who will do it as a major priority of his Presidency.
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Posted by: chabuka on Jun 6, 2007 5:30 AM
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Posted by: Roverton on Jun 8, 2007 3:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Rune on Jun 4, 2007 1:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only justifications I have ever heard electronic voting machines is that they can count faster and that they can be adapted to accommodate blind people. But blind people are not any more well served than the public at large by a vote counting method that is notably prone to error and tampering. And it is nice to find out the results of elections relatively soon, but exit polls can usually do that for us (and always did before we started "adjusting" them to match questionable counts provided by software driven machines) and in the close elections where the exit polls can't discern a winner, having a reliable paper ballot that can be counted and recounted to verify an accurate count is all the more important.
So, again, why do we need electronic voting? We know what we have lost--more or less any claim to a form of a valid democracy at all--but what have we gained? And does anyone remember faster election results being a mjor concern of voters before certain politicians with ties to the voting machine companies starting championing them? Seems to me, long lines, confusing and overly long ballots, inconvenient hours, problems with registration and finding one's polling place, and intimidation of some voters have always been the real problems. Electronic voting machines don't address any of those issues in any meaningful way.
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» RE: Yes, we do need electronic voting?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Canada, pop. 30 million, still has all paper ballots
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» All software associated with electronic voting should be open source, no exceptions.
Posted by: lessbread
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ateo on Jun 4, 2007 4:13 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I highly doubt I'll ever bother to vote again.
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Jun 4, 2007 4:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Somewhat stupidly it appears, I assumed that this would be as big a priority to them as it is to me. How could they be unaware that Florida was stolen in 00 and Ohio in 04? It is absolutely inexplicable to me that they can be satisfied with any "magic box" solution.
It is possible have honest elections in this country - with the tide turning blue as it has, I hope someone can explain to me why one of the methods to assure that isn't the top priority for elected Democrats.
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» What - and be calleded a whacko?
Posted by: KeepsonTickn
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Posted by: Uncle Crabby on Jun 4, 2007 5:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Castro has offered- nobody called him back
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: diogenes on Jun 4, 2007 5:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jun 4, 2007 6:23 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Bad idea
Posted by: fanny666
» If you want to shame them, protest naked like they do in Nigeria. :)
Posted by: lessbread
» Noooo!
Posted by: weatherking
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jun 4, 2007 6:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a good list of URLs at the end of the book.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 4, 2007 7:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: fanny666 on Jun 4, 2007 8:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HughScott on Jun 4, 2007 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» They've thought of that too.
Posted by: fanny666
» THAT
Posted by: weatherking
» RE: To hell with machines. Everyone should vote by absentee ballot and write in their own candidates.
Posted by: kellysgarden
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kellysgarden on Jun 4, 2007 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They told how there were always elections held, supposedly giving the outward appearance they were somehow democratic. But they said, even though they voted, they all knew their votes didn't mean anything - the people who counted the votes were the ones who ultimately decided.
It appears we are now no better than East Germany of the 1980s.
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» RE: ast Germany and communist voting
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: Krain61 on Jun 4, 2007 12:56 PM
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Anyone who thinks that electronis voting could be fare is nuts.
Don't people use that system to steal your idenity?
I refuse to vote in a country where we no longer have paper ballots.
I think in Russia they would have a more fare election than has been
the case and will continue to be the case in this country.
We have lost our Freedoms.
I hear people only talk about Democrats or Republicans{both crooks}
I have yet heard a canidate talk about repealing the Patriot Act or repealing
the Minilaws Bush signed taking our rights away.I never hear one I-o-ta
about it not one! In Russia you expect it but here in the Great ole USA.
Yes I expect them to get there bucket of sand and bend us over and if you
just look at what there doing I tell you I'm getting pretty sore back there.
I think voting machines should be outlawed. We tell other country how they
should hold elections but with the system we have who will they be electing..
GWB.. "Georges World Blunders"
I wonder why anyone would think electronic voting is better.
Look at the viruses that computers get. A good hacker can get in any computer
which means most likely a hacker is helping build the computers and making
a hefty profit from the ones getting elected.
Americans are suppose to be so smart and live in the greatest country but tell
me why we let these crooks control our food supply our water supply our gas
supply force insurance on us and countless other things..They say it's for our
own good but why how is that so when we now make more with less buying
power and the foods unhealthy and you name it the price has increased.
Yea you vote either party in and well have more of the same but be perpared
to loose much more this next round.. We need to get honest Media..lol
If you listen to other world leaders you can see what our leaders are up to.
Control of the whole world and not just us. And we me and you are footing the bill!
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jun 4, 2007 1:31 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) Vote only on paper ballots using an indelible ink pen. This is an absolute requirement.
2) Verifiable machine counting of ballots. Rule #1 - no private proprietary equipment or software can be used. All technical specifications must be open to public scrutiny.
- Use an optical scanner to read the ballot. No connections to phone lines or wireless networks can be allowed. The results at the end of the day must be burned onto a CD and transported by registered courier to precinct headquarters. Another CD must also be burned, but will remain locked in the machine for later cross-checking.
- The onboard electronics of the optical scanning machine must be checked by an independent auditor to verify that they match the public specifications - just like electronic gambling machines in casinos
-The optical scanner must produce a copy of it's vote tally for each voter, which the voter can keep
- All paper ballots are then stored in locked boxes for a certain period of time - one year would be appropriate - so that physical recounts are possible.
3) The voter registration cannot be tampered with, as it was by Karl Rove and GW Bush in the recent caging scandal. One of the easiest ways to do this is to link voter registration to state drivers licenses.
- this proposal, to automatically register voters when they get their drivers licenses, has been fought tooth and nail by many elitist politicians, by but especially by Republicans. Why? It would vastly increase the voter registration of the 'lower classes' - and the Republicans know they'd lose every election if that was the case, as do the corporate Democrats.
4) Ban private corporations from any involvement in the voting process. Elections must be funded and run by government employees, not by private interests.
This kind of voting system would be largely immune to tampering, and would guarantee that most eligible voters were registered (everyone has a driver's license, right?). There would be no 'hanging chad' controversies. If you see any problems with it, please let me know.
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» RE: How to run a clean election:
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: unity1 on Jun 4, 2007 1:51 PM
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if elections in your country have been 'stolen' since the 1800 then how can you call yourselves a democracy - that word is the BIG myth
take a moment to comprehend reality
your congress is made up of multi millionaires and a growing number of billionares - right?
they all campaign for hundreds and thousands of dollars - millions of dollars goes to make up their campaign to be elected - its a business - NOW here's the crunch
what business in its right mind - after spending millions of dollars on its candidates would leave the deciding factor to YOU the unwashed public !!!!
you live in the land of illusion of celuiod dreams - and that is what your democracy has been - The only good thing GW has done for the world is to render visible the illusion
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Posted by: shanti on Jun 4, 2007 4:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Regrettably HR 811 does not address the elephant in the room. HR 811 does not outlaw the continued widespread use of a method of vote tabulation that is so fundamentally and irretrievably flawed that at its worst might only give the appearance of an election. Touch screen (DRE) voting machines are convenient, pleasant and alluring but nearly impossible to implement with adequate security. Computer experts who know the limitations of the technology, readily acknowledge the inherent difficulty of building voting technology that is sufficiently secure and reliable and auditable. With voting technology, programmers face the herculean task of developing software for a product that is likely to be under attack from individuals who are trying to subvert its operations. The development and rigorous testing required to build and maintain a sufficiently secure and reliable voting technology would ultimately be cost prohibitive. Jason Kitcat, a British open source software developer, concluded after three years of research that "making electronic voting sufficiently secure would be nigh on impossible, especially when you had to keep it anonymous and auditable."
We must not trust the recording of our vote to unobservable memory chips and data bases. Thousands of votes can be altered undetected by a few insiders or by outsiders if modems are used to transfer votes between precincts. We can outlaw the use of modems in elections but how do we know those laws are going to be enforced? Why are we paying extraordinary sums of taxpayer money to purchase voting machines that digitally record unobservable votes. DRE's require constant, complicated, expensive, security procedures that are seldom implemented. We need to do away with digital vote counting altogether and return to paper ballots.
Our GAO has now twice enumerated the many known ways that electronic vote tallies can be altered without detection. This information has been widely circulated on the web. Technicians who service voting machines, and many partisan election officials know that is is trivially easy to hack central tabulators and/or install malicious software in DRE's. On election day we have only one chance to get the vote count recorded accurately. Citizens are disenfranchised when DRE's break down or flip votes, or when VVPAT paper rolls jam. Citizens are disenfranchised when uncertified software is installed by dishonest voting machine vendors. Even if truly independent testing labs examine software code that is not proprietary, it is highly unlikely that subtle malicious code would be detected.
A transparent election system is essential to maintain the confidence of the voter. Herein lies the essential flaw inherent in all electronic vote tabulation systems. Vote counting that takes place inside a machine is not visible and therefore not transparent. Continuing to allow the use of DRE's with a verified paper trail is like putting lipstick on a pig. Many reputable election protection advocates and computer security experts consider DRE's with an add on paper trail to be "worse than useless because they provide an illusion of validation". Keep in mind it is entirely possible for the paper receipt generated by the touch screen to show one candidate while the computer memory records a different candidate. Please contact your representatives and ask them to not pass HR 811 unless it includes an unqualified ban on the use of all DRE's.
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Posted by: marydon2 on Jun 4, 2007 7:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jun 4, 2007 7:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without a paper ballot as either a back-up or primary piece of evidence, there is and never will be actual proof of how a vote was cast.
Just the way the "Rangers," and the "Pioneers" want it to be.
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Posted by: bobiam on Jun 4, 2007 7:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
UnEasyOne wonders why Dems don't scream relentlessly for simple verifiable ballots and counting: Maybe our National Security Agency has enough information over politicians to bend them as they wish. And tell them to keep quiet.
HughScott has the right answer: Everyone should vote by absentee ballot.
Thoughtcriminal has the best idea to begin solving the election problems.
Unity1 says "get real." Thanks Unity for the excellent idea.
shanti also votes for paper ballots. Good position shanti.
So my vote and position is for paper ballots and 100% absentee voting for all federal elections.
And lets get the 100 million eligible but unregistered voters to get registered and vote for a new third (second?) Independent party.
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» Hooray for the suggestion of a third party
Posted by: kellysgarden
» Thanks for all the comments
Posted by: srosenfeld
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 5, 2007 1:41 PM
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Make every candidate publicly and in writing promise to get back to PAPER BALLOTS: no computer sysems which can be easily reprogrammed. Make the Candidate agree to step down IF she/he doesn't get this election reform done within two years of taking office.
OR simply support and vote for Congressman Ron Paul who will do it as a major priority of his Presidency.
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Posted by: chabuka on Jun 6, 2007 5:30 AM
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Posted by: Roverton on Jun 8, 2007 3:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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