COMMENTS: 162
The Loneliness of the Abortion Patient
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Jessie is a 23-year-old woman, the mother of two children, having her third abortion. Her comments are drawn from a small interview study (16 women interviewed thus far) we are conducting to understand the impact of state-imposed regulations on women having abortions in two highly regulated states. In our talks with Jessie and other women, we uncovered a striking sense of isolation among many abortion patients. Rather than expressing solidarity with others experiencing unwanted pregnancies, nearly all our respondents took pains to distinguish themselves as different from other women getting abortions.
Though there were some expressions of sympathy, we also heard disparaging remarks about women who were too careless about contraception and were obtaining abortions too "easily." "I am a Christian; I am not doing this casually," one woman said, with the clear suggestion that others in the waiting room were not so thoughtful or moral. Perhaps the starkest example of isolation came in one woman's response to the question of whether she would "ever consider being part of a group that supports people who get abortions?" Her answer was an emphatic "no!" As she put it, "I wouldn't support them (other abortion recipients) because ... it [might become] a habit for everyone." The speaker was a 20-year-old mother of one, who was about to have her second abortion.
The situation we describe is very different from the one that existed in the United States in the 1970s, around the time of legalization of abortion. Then, many women seeking abortions felt part of a larger movement. "Second wave" feminism was flourishing and women's health issues were a central focus of the movement. People still had fresh memories of when abortion was illegal, and thousands of women died and many more were injured from unsafe abortions. Rather than being ashamed, many abortion patients of the pre-Roe v. Wade era recall feeling entitled to having this once dangerous procedure done in a professional and women-centered setting.
The new occupation of "abortion counselor" was established in this period -- someone who explained the procedure to the patient and accompanied her throughout her stay at the clinic. Feminist health activists pressured the newly established clinics to keep prices low and to make sure doctors were sufficiently respectful to their patients. In short, for many patients in the early years of legal abortion, the experience was both "personal and political," in that there were constant reminders that this medical procedure was tied to a larger movement. In contrast, in many of today's clinics, the staff is so busy complying with state-imposed "informed consent" requirements, which often involve telling patients downright lies -- for example, the supposed link between abortion and breast cancer and other distortions of risks of the procedure -- that there is rarely the opportunity to impart a positive political message about reproductive justice.
We are not suggesting that there no longer exists a movement for abortion rights. Today, there continues to be an extremely hardworking, multifaceted "reproductive justice" movement, as it is often now referred to. There are dedicated healthcare providers who resolutely go forth each day to provide abortion care, often risking their personal safety. There are lawyers who work tirelessly to stem the tide against the various restrictions imposed by anti-abortion politicians and by the Supreme Court ( as in the recent egregious case, Gonzales v. Carhart, which banned a type of abortion that is sometimes medically necessary to care for women in the second trimester of pregnancy, and which imposes stiff criminal and civil penalties for providers who perform the procedure). There are advocates who engage in crucial activities, ranging from raising money to help low-income women obtain abortions, to organizing political campaigns, such as the recently successful one in South Dakota, in which voters defeated a measure to ban nearly all abortions.
Yet a clear gap -- of class, income and education -- exists between those who work in this increasingly professionalized reproductive justice movement and those women who now form the majority of abortion patients. A recent study from the Guttmacher Institute, the leading research organization on reproductive health issues, paints a dramatic picture of the divide between nonpoor and poor women: "The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level is more than four times that of women living above 300 percent of the poverty level." Not surprisingly, there is a similar gap in access to contraception, leading the Institute to speak of "Two Americas" for American women with respect to the ability to control their reproductive lives. (http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2006/05/05/index.html)
The women we encountered in the waiting rooms of three abortion clinics, located in the South and Midwest, have little experience with the contemporary reproductive justice movement, or indeed of politics in general. But they are highly aware of the shame and stigma surrounding abortion. Some spoke of their fears of being recognized in the waiting room by acquaintances. Others, when asked if they would have preferred to have their abortions performed by their own doctors, in their home towns, rather than undertaking a drive of several hours to a clinic, recoiled at the thought. "I don't think that I would be comfortable going to my ob-gyn for an abortion, knowing that's the same man that delivered my children. ... I would think he would think of me differently. ... I mean, he sees me in one light, and that's the way I want him to see me."
None of the women interviewed said they thought abortion should be illegal. But many expressed ambivalence about their decision to have one. An unmistakable sense of sadness hovered around our conversations. Ultimately, these women made the decision to have an abortion for the same reasons women always have: Their recognition that they could not adequately care for a child at this moment in their lives. This seemed especially true for the more than half of our interviewees who already have children.
Most of all, the abortions sought by our interviewees seemed to symbolize for them their personal failures to achieve the lives they wish they had. As Linda (who already had two children) said wistfully, when asked if there were circumstances under which she would not have had the abortion, "If my old boyfriend would still be with me, not caring I was pregnant ... or, if I had the money and my own house, my own car, maybe I wouldn't care about having a man beside me, and I could just move on with my kids."
The stories of the women we met in the clinics are so grim -- with tales of unreliable male partners, minimum-wage jobs that don't allow them to properly care for the children they already have, broken-down cars and inadequate social support -- that it becomes clearer than ever that "reproductive justice" means far more than accessible contraception and abortion. Affordable housing, living wages, better child care, intimate partner violence programs and universal health care are things the movement must fight for in order to give these women and their children a shot at a decent life. And if that weren't enough, a challenge of a different nature is to make the lonely women in the waiting rooms feel part of that struggle.
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on May 26, 2007 1:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I had sufficient rank in the government, I'd launch some major campaigns to lower the cost of living. For example:
- New construction techniques to slash the cost of building a house, both labor and materials.
- Solar power on every roof to eliminate electrical bills.
- A conversion program to make cars electric and encourage manufacture, to eliminate reliance on gasoline and much of the maintenance costs.
Lowering the cost of living is the best approach to helping those in poverty because it helps society as a whole. Not raising taxes for social programs.
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: skewitall
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: LPB
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: JinpaG
» Inequality
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: LPB
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: LPB
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Free birth control and free sterilization for all !!!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Free birth control and free sterilization for all !!!
Posted by: techphile
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Posted by: algodees on May 26, 2007 2:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: babaloo
» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: MAD
» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: Arlene
» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: AFWXMAN
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 26, 2007 4:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for projecting ones guilt onto others, and pretending your case is different and morally superior, this is just human nature. I'm sure lots of defense mechanisms and rationalizations kick in when you are in a vulnerable and emotional state.
All the adrenaline and solidarity of the feminist thing may have helped back in the early 70s. But you can't really expect that rush to last forever. Eventually the reality of your personal situation has to kick in. And I'd imagine it did for lots of women back then who got abortions, and found it wasn't the liberating experience it was cracked up to be.
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» RE: "Liberating experience it was cracked up to be?" What are you talking about?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: Guilt fantasies
Posted by: babaloo
» RE: Guilt
Posted by: JCrowe
» RE: Guilt is religiously-induced
Posted by: choice joyce
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 26, 2007 4:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If she's having an abortion, she's determined that she doesn't want children or isn't ready for children, and she's made a decision for herself. It's really disgusting that people can pretend they know what the "responsible" thing is for her to do. Given that we live in a rape culture where many women have little control over their sexuality (or contraceptive use), and given the uneven availability of contraceptives, and given the pathetic state of sex education...why do people continue to blame women for not being "responsible"? It's just another way for people to reinforce that women are irrational, unresponsible, overly emotional people who deserve inferior healthcare and discrimination.
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» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: babs
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: mjabele
» are we living in the post-patriarchy yet?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: are we living in the post-patriarchy yet?
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: thha
» Easy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: asy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: asy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: asy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: Judithica
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 26, 2007 5:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've noticed a pattern where people like to blame things on feminists and feminist movement. After all, it couldn't have anything to do with the backlash against feminism or with conservatives and liberals who continue to militarize women's lives and slash social programs that help women. Nope, clearly it's the big bad feminists who have made life bad for women!
And for the record, I don't know many feminists, past or present who said the abortion "experience" would be liberating. They did, however, say that being in control of one's body is liberating, and it most certainly is.
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» RE: and don't leave out how bad the feminists have made life for men!
Posted by: judithkrain
» militarize women's lives?
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: militarize women's lives?
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: mjabele on May 26, 2007 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an internist and HIV specialist working at an inner city clinic, part of my job involves counseling patients about the importance of protection during sexual encounters - not so much to avoid pregnancy, but rather to avoid transmission of the HIV virus. Nonetheless, I'm struck by the number of women who tell me that their partners refuse to use condoms, generally for reasons having to do with personal gratification. This phenomenon seems far from uncommon even in relationships where the partners (ostensibly) love each other, and even in circumstances where the woman is seropositive and the male partner seronegative. Who is being irresponsible here?
Before we criticize women who become repeatedly pregnant as being "irresponsible", we need to take a good hard look at whether these women have access to methods of birth control that THEY can exclusively control, rather than depending on the cooperation of their male partners. And, though I don't really agree with frosty's comment that we live in a "rape culture", we should also acknowledge that there remains a subtle but persistent inequality of power in many consensual sexual relationships in our culture, and that women are typically the "disempowered" individuals in such situations.
During the year I worked in Malawi, I saw this sort of disempowerment of women in sexual relationships everywhere, and simply assumed it was part of the culture there (which, in point of fact, it is). But I was surprised to see, after I came back to the US, that it's also quite common here.
Prescription of birth control needs to be readily and freely available to all women, and women need to feel comfortable and secure in the knowledge that they can access such methods without endangering their relationship with a male partner, before we jump to the conclusion that women such as those in the article are simply being "irresponsible" in their reproductive behavior.
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» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: astudent
» The pill also requires a prescription...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The pill also requires a prescription...
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: techphile
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Posted by: WitchyNy on May 26, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Should abortion be a hard choice? Absolutely. If nothing else, it should be that.
How many women abort due to poverty? In Australia-mothers are supported by the government if they divorce with two or more children....Australia WANTS more children. In Canada children are supported by the government..both countries have called for their women to have MORE children.
But here-we have a Democrat approved 93 BILLION dollar war to support.
Who has time/money to have children?
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» RE: Abortion should be safe and legal---BUT-
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» Abortion morphs into politics..
Posted by: zipper696
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on May 26, 2007 8:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: terradea on May 26, 2007 8:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Accidental pregnancy is not longer feasible (contraception is free, available to all and fool-proof);
2. The embryo or fetus can be removed from a woman who might die otherwise and gestated in someone else's body (pro-lifers (men included), perhaps?).
How dare any of you pro-lifers (or pro-life sympathizers) talk about what a woman should or should not be able to do with her own body? Shame on you. That's even against the christian religion (judge not; free will; let god decide; remove the board in your own eye; cast the first stone, etc.) - pro-lifers are nothing but hypocrites. Life may be sacred, but a woman's life is more sacred than that of an unborn, and until everyone understands that, women in this country are in danger of losing their status as individuals.
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» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: banshee413
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: LPB
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Posted by: wmoss2 on May 26, 2007 10:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In University I took a trip to DC with other students to attend a N.O.W rally in support of abortion rights. Before then, my global attitude was that abortion rights were a civil rights issue...simple. At the event I was shocked by the "dark energy" in the air. The people I were with were quite awful: calling fetuses "tumors, boils, pimples, parasites...etc."...it was pretty horrible. I saw many of the pro-life crowd throwing out awful words like "whore, sinner, murderer, etc.". I came out of that event with a changed attitude about the whole matter.
In my opinion, abortion is too complicated an issue for a simple resolution. Every individual case has unique circumstances, and should be judged on that basis. I don't like that idea that abortion is always okay or always evil. There has to be some way that people can apply some reason here.
The basic issues here: individual freedom, individual responsibility, social responsibility (and ethics), the value of life and practical economic issues. Of these, the one I think the most about is the value of life. I think this is the most contentious issue here. How does a person value life and how do they build a "hierarchy of living beings"?
I believe that most people value life proportionate to how similar that life is to one's self. So, we have people who refuse to eat anything "with a face", oppose the fur trade, oppose testing on (cute) animals, etc., while killing veggies, bacteria and viruses is just fine. We all do this, but to varying degrees. In the same way, I think this debate is occurring because of differing ideas about how to define this hierarchy for human life.
Many people are uncomfortable even trying to establish hierarchy of life for people. Some see all human life as precious (recall that whole Terry Schiavo affair) while others value human life based on some set of criteria: eugenicists, racial supremacists and pro-choice people. Pro-choice people put the fetus (or perhaps embryo) below the adult in the hierarchy of life; I suppose because it is so unlike us. The fetus has less brain-power, can't talk and looks "weird", so it is of less value. But this strikes me as being a bit artificial (almost as much as saying a retarded person or a black person is less valuable than a healthy white or Asian).
That being said, I still think this procedure is necessary and should be available and safe to women. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that people should consider it to be "just fine" and "not a big deal". I also think it unreasonable to expect that everyone should be non-judgmental towards women who have abortions. I think most sane people value life to some degree and abhor its destruction; abortion ends a life. How serious we feel about it, depends a lot on our personal life hierarchy and the exact circumstances that lead to the abortion in question.
Try to see the other side's point of view I guess. To use a small example, I don't agree with vegans, but I respect that they value animal life much higher than I do, and I accept that they may have a valid point. I try to be civil when I meet these people and to understand their point of view.
If any progress is possible (ands sometimes I really wonder about this...) on the abortion issue we should try to be civil and accept that we all have somewhat different scales for weighing life. Respect and reason should win the day...I hope.
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» The problem with respect and reason
Posted by: LPB
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 26, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Women shouldn't have sex if they cannot afford contraception and don't want a baby."
If they do, apparently they are bad people.
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» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: frosty86
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Posted by: jackie on May 26, 2007 11:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» THANK GOODNESS FOR SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTIONS
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: janvdb on May 26, 2007 11:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When poor women take this impending situation seriously and RESPONSIBLY make the hard decision to abort children who would have been born into bad situations, they are DOING US ALL A BIG FAVOR.
They are doing the right thing and we should all express our appreciation to them.
Sure, they should have been more careful about birth control. But, 40% of US abortions are to women who were using birth control when they got pregnant. No one did anything "irresponsible" at all. They used birth control just like they were supposed to but they got pregnant anyway.
Those who weren't using birth control should have been using it, sure. But errors shouldn't be a reason for damning people to a lifetime of struggle and failure. People must be allowed to recover from errors or we will all end up living with the consequences of forcing people into failure. Missing one pill can result in a pregnancy. Good, responsible women make these mistakes, which seem minor at the time. Women succumb to pressure from men for unprotected sex. Mistakes happen.
Grow up and face reality. Mistakes happen. Responsible people deal with these mistakes early on so they don't snowball into major disasters.
Women who stand up, step up to the plate, correctly analyze the situation, take up the burden of guilt and crap dished out by people who like to see women broke and dependent -- women who go ahead and abort unwanted children should BE APPLAUDED. They are doing the unpleasant, but necessary, thing which protects all of us from the messes those unwanted children are highly likely to create in our streets and jails.
These women are DOING THE RIGHT THING.
The IRRESPONSIBLE women are those who fail to take this hard step, who let things slide, who let "nature take its course," who can't deal with reality, who don't mind messy, failed lives and who ultimately bear unplanned, unwanted, unfathered, unfunded, poorly-timed children -- children who are highly likely to do poorly in life.
We need to recognize that mistakes are made in failing to prevent pregnancy BY BOTH SEXES and the women who respond responsibly to these unfortuante situations by taking the difficult but necessary steps to prevent unwanted births are the RESPONSIBLE ones.
Women who bear children they don't want, can't afford, won't raise well, who have no fathers, who are born with three strikes against them, who end up dropping out of school, committing crimes and filling out jails -- these are the women we should be stigmatizing as irresponsible.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: We should applaud these women for DOING THE RIGHT THING
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: We should applaud these women for DOING THE RIGHT THING
Posted by: Aussie Kim
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Posted by: mtnprivy on May 26, 2007 2:55 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By it's very nature, abortion is the use of deadly force against another human(who did not choose to be there), to impose your own will against one who is NOT YOU. Ask any expectant mother if that is "herself" inside her, and you will get a strong response. They know very well this is another person! Ask them if the violent termination of that "fetus" by an outsider should warrent a "murder" charge, and they will have equally strong feelings!
There is no doubt in my mind that abortion changes a woman's life forever. How can a woman think of herself the same after that experience? Many of them come to resent the provider who made it so easy to go thru without even a moment's pause for reflection. This idea has been expressed to me multiple times.
I was not raised in great wealth, and find the ease with which money is used to justify such an act as a sad statement about the pervasiveness of greed(ease of living). The material world that I was born into would have caused more than half of today's women to abort me immediately. I am so glad that my mother was able to see that I was an individual in my own right, and NOT HER. Perhaps women who cannot understand that this new life is NOT YOU should not raise children at all, but at least they could be adopted to another woman who could undertand and respect this new person.
Please don't act like the pro-abortion crowd is the true "live and let live" crowd, nothing could be more false. Having said that, I don't like the fact that so many "pro-lifers" are pro military, and for that matter, so many of us are pro-consumers(wasters) of the earth's limited resources. I like to live simply, so that others may simply live. Seems like we could all spend less time calling eachother names, distorting the facts, and more time trying to make the world a better place for us all.
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» RE: control of your body
Posted by: banshee413
» RE: control of your body
Posted by: Gisele
» A fetus CAN become another person IF the mother nurtures it but it's not one YET
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: A fetus CAN become another person IF the mother nurtures it but it's not one YET
Posted by: cinde
» RE: control of your body
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: control of your body
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: mtnprivy on May 26, 2007 3:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we do not learn from our (civilizations) mistakes, we are bound to repeat them.
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» Eugenics = govt forcing birth patterns = using the law to ban abortion
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: `hurray for eugenics
Posted by: Logic's Edge
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Posted by: Jamila Akil on May 26, 2007 3:28 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that someone needs to explain to these women that they are no better or worse than any other woman, despite the fact that they want to believe differently to avoid feeling bad about themselves.
The pro-choice movement has a lot of work to do about stripping the stigma from abortion.
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Posted by: Gisele on May 26, 2007 3:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That church going folk are using the services of abortion providers in such large numbers ought to be rather surprising. They would know that God holds the lives of the unborn in high esteem, to the degree that if a man were to hit a pregnant woman and she lose her child - the man was to be put to death.
But the ones that really piss me off on this topic are men, for a number of reasons.
"Keep your legs closed if you're not willing to take responsibility."
Let's do that ladies! Men seem to want to make the issue of abortion just one more of women's many sexual responsibilities - so let's look on it as a strength, not a burden. Rape is the only scenario where we truly don't have control of sex, the rest of the time we do - use it. Keep your legs closed until his eyes bug out, and he's willing to sign a statement saying he will take full responsibility for the child he may be helping to create. Responsibility for life.
"...if the woman is not using contraception,"
Guys, this is NOT just a woman's responsibility, it's yours. 100% of the time! If you need help Google "male contraception"...you'll find all kinds of info there. Including a real nifty shot that lasts for up to 10 years. Couple that with a condom and you're not likely to contribute to the population explosion. How many of you would be willing to take that step? A little worried about side effects maybe? Don't worry, it's not hormonally based so some of the nasty side effects we've had to deal with over the years won't affect you.
"..why should I support something I don't want,"
If you're willing to risk helping to create life, you better be willing to raise a child to adulthood. Or keep your pecker in your pants.
Instead of taking a life, let's put 50% of the responsibility where it actually lays - on Daddy. NAME him on the birth registration! When a man is sure that his name will be shown for all to see, and responsibility for his act will come home to roost - he's more likely to think twice about just how badly he really wants sex.
INTERVIEW FIRST! Ask him what his views on parenthood and abortion are - BEFORE you give yourself! If he's all for abortion in a country that's trying to ban it, why on earth would you even consider going to bed with him? "Well, if I don't then he'll walk," I've actually heard that one before...let him walk! Why saddle yourself with that kind of baggage? More than that, he's telling you he doesn't give a damn about you.
If a man wants to give you full responsibility for the sexual act - take it - Keep Your Legs Closed. Go buy a few sex toys you'll learn more about what you like, and unwanted pregnancy won't be an issue. On the brighter side you won't be contributing to an already over populated planet, you won't be creating canon fodder for future president's to use when they have a fart crosswise...and you'll be contributing to the economy. Even better than that you'll be helping men do something they avoid - taking responsibility for their own actions. Something few men do without being forced to.
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» THAT IS MY ADVICE.....JUST SAY NO. Now, I need some help!
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: thha
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: progressivevoice
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: Urstrly on May 26, 2007 7:07 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hold Fundamentalists Responsible
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: Hold Fundamentalists Responsible
Posted by: judithkrain
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Posted by: Poe on May 27, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we all have reproductive rights and with those reproductive rights come responsibilities. Both partners in a relationship, whether a one night stand or long term, need to be concerned about STD's, pregnancy and of course AIDS.
This doesn't seem to be of any concern, though, in America's inner cities. There are absolutely no valid excuses to engage in unprotected sex....none! Condoms are as readily available and cheap as candy in any supermarket, corner store, pharmacy or Planned Parenthood.
If you choose to engage in unprotected sex, and have no interest in bringing children into the world, then as far as I'm concerned, whatever the consequences, you are throwing your reproductive rights to the wind!
Society should always be there to help those in need, and I have no problem with our tax dollars, 60 hours a week's worth, helping the truly needy. But what I see happening, particularly in our inner cities, is hard earned money helping to support an irresponsible lifestyle. Young men who choose not to use a condom and young women who choose these young men. The end result....abortions used as birth control, or unwanted children being raised in broken homes with one parent too young to handle the responsibilities of parenting, and another parent.....well...pretty much non existent.
So young women in the inner city, with their whole life in front of them, throw it all away. By the time they're 25, they're uneducated, unskilled and burdened with raising one, two, three or four children alone.....which is pretty much impossible. Instead of being a teacher, she's a teacher's aide....instead of being a nurse, she's a nurse's aide....instead of a job in management, she's a cashier.
Jobs that were never meant to help raise a family.
Certainly abortion should remain a legal and safe procedure for all of the obvious reasons.
But, in a normal consensual relationship or "one night stand", there is no excuse for unprotected sex!!
Poe
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 27, 2007 9:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
are you willing to federally subsidize condoms, birth control pills, daycare centers, and research on safe and more reliable forms of contraception?
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» RE: abortion IS a type of contraception
Posted by: thha
» RE: abortion IS a type of contraception
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: abortion IS a type of contraception
Posted by: thha
» In point of fact, the Latin roots of the word "contraception" imply that abortion...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: In point of fact, the Latin roots of the word "contraception" imply that abortion...
Posted by: frosty86
» Well.....
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: Sojourner on May 27, 2007 9:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In time, the people will find that small families can be accommodated. But that's a major life change. I cannot imagine it, myself. But I am envious that they are learning while we are not.
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» Higher standard of living = lower birth rate
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: Pittsburgher on May 27, 2007 11:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I am certainly not in favor of women having abortions, and I do not believe that anyone would prefer that scenario, it is appalling to read of people judging other's lives. How presumptuous to think that one would know how one would behave with someone else's upbringing, education, financial status and general life situation. Not everyone can stroll off to the corner drugstore and plunk down their AmEx card to buy some condoms; there are more people in this country than some of you might think who must travel for 45 minutes to the grocery store, after they have found someone with a car to take them, and for whom it might well be a choice between buying condoms and three days worth of rice and macaroni and cheese to eat. I will assume that everyone discussing what others should do have never ridden in a car without a seat belt, never ridden a bicycle without a helmet, and not even once had sex without a condom. Or have they done those things and been lucky enough to emerge unscathed, and feel comfortable in sitting around judging what others with worse luck should do?
I would like to mention just in case it might be helpful to anyone that spermicides are reasonably inexpensive, available OTC, and should be acceptable to men who will not use condoms. They are not as effective as some other methods but are certainly better than crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best.
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» RE: Women who ALWAYS use birth control have abortions too!
Posted by: Poe
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Posted by: fork on May 27, 2007 11:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope this study is continued so that we can see how prevalent this view is, where people can rationalize abortion, but only for themselves. It certainly gives an interesting perspective on anti-choicers, particularly those who would never be in a position to require an abortion. An extensive investigation into this phenomenon would give us an idea of how many of those spouting "personal responsibility" and "killing babies" would, in all likelihood, consider an abortion themselves.
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
Not that I think these kinds of people are all intentionally and/or maliciously hypocritical, because we all harbour incompatible positions on one issue or another, but only by understanding how this occurs and how to influence it, can we begin to change hearts and minds. If most people find abortion acceptable (even if only for themselves), how can we harness this and extend this acceptance into empathy for others that find themselves in need of an abortion (especially since empathy is the basic tenet of most religions and belief systems - "The Golden Rule")?
From a Globe and Mail article, Saturday, May 26, 2007:
"One of the world's leading neuroscientists, Dr. Vilanayur S. Ramachandran, has written, "Our mental life is governed mainly by a cauldron of emotions, motives and desires which we are barely conscious of, and what we call our conscious life is usually an elaborate post hoc rationalization of things we really do for other reasons."
There are other mental structures that govern feelings and emotions, and these structures have a greater impact on decision making than logic or reason. . .
Neurologists and brain researchers have describe how disturbing images go straight to a part of the brain that is not mediated by language or reasoned analysis . . ."
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Posted by: Calicat on May 27, 2007 12:03 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For every woman who has an abortion there is a man who made her pregnant. Let's just keep that in mind when we go on about responsibility.
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» RE: 60% of women who get abortions are mothers
Posted by: Poe
» RE: 60% of women who get abortions are mothers
Posted by: thha
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Posted by: papillion on May 27, 2007 2:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My story?
I've had two abortions due to love, control and betrayal bordering on abuse.
A woman with a college degree, a great job, good family etc., I started having sex when I was in my twenties. Didn't use hormonal birth control because of the horrible side-effects, and since I didn't already have children, GYN didn't recommend an IUD. I relied on condoms, no problem.
I've only had two partners in my life - ever. The first boyfriend was very methodical and on-board with preventing pregnancy. Yea! Together about 4 years and NEVER had a mishap, accident or otherwise. Great! Amicably broke up.
Boyfriend Two? That relationship ended because he got me pregnant. That's right HE got me pregnant...not once, not twice, but three times. In the background, I wasn't entirely sure about our relationship, and ended it a few times, only for him to plead his way back. I loved him, but didn't believe that a permanent future was possible - different family and cultural backgrounds, opposing views, etc. Your 20s are for dating to decide what you want in a partner.
Disturbingly, my family and I started to notice he was a bit controlling: jealous, loved to monopolize my time, attention hungry while damn cute, educated, well-off and fun. Didn't add up.
The first pregnancy ended in abortion - after all, I had my life, education, and social standing to think of! He wasn't happy about the abortion, but didn't say much. Hmmmm. I chalked it up to the condom failure.
The second "uh-oh" he seemed so serene about, while I was freakin' out! I decided to keep this child because I felt so horrribly guilty about the first abortion, and feared for my soul...seriously. As the man, he wouldn't bear the societal shame, as so many commentors have proven, only me. So I went through with the pregnancy, got engaged and prepared for married life. He wanted to move to the West Coast (our families are all East Coast) and have a happy life, with me doing the stay-at-home thing for awhile. That was not the life I wanted, but in my social circle, you don't have kids outside of marriage.
When I was 8 months along or so, after an argument, Fiance with great flourish, revealed that he'd been sabotaging the condoms purposely for a long time. He feared, and rightly, that I'd end the relationship, and HE wanted to be a young, married Dad, and he taunted that I was tricked and trapped! Lovingly of course....
Betrayed, it took an entire year to come to terms with this information. Men, you can't know how devestating that was ... so now I have an unplanned child due to deception, future in a foggy quandry, don't trust the fiance, suffered untreated birth injuries (i.e. broken tailbone that took 6 months to heal...docs said "Oh that's nothing, you'll be fine..." My painful ass thinks otherwise!)
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» RE: Until Men Bear Their Fair Share of Responsibility and Shame...
Posted by: chinaskicharles
» RE: Until Men Bear Their Fair Share of Responsibility and Shame...
Posted by: Judithica
» RE: Until Men Bear Their Fair Share of Responsibility and Shame...
Posted by: chinaskicharles
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Posted by: papillion on May 27, 2007 2:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ha! Never again! This time, I marched his ass to Planned Parenthood and made him give a donation above the cost of the procedure! I strolled, singing, to the abortion appointment thinking of my freedom from this asshole, with him thinking I'd finally lost my mind. He grudgingly took me to an expensive brunch after, trying to humor me. Here's a move for you: when he went to the office the next day, I moved out! Smiling all the while, I haven't looked back!
Why did all of this happen? Because I trusted and loved. Does that make me stupid or irresponsible? No, because sex is a part of love, and sometimes, love, trust, sex, etc. are messy, chaotic and not governed by logic or rationality; for love, people do all sorts of crazy, irrational things.
Even if I'd been irresponsible (read: careless, promiscious), only one's God or conscious can pass judgement, excepting criminal action. Instead, when it comes to sex and reproduction, women are blamed! And heaven forbid you're a single woman with a child! Go join the nunnery, cloister or leper colony since you're a horrible, irresponsibile, undate-able whore. Meanwhile, the man who is the other 50% of the equation, walks around without a scarlet letter, everyone sure that his ex is scorned and hell bent on extracting a king's ransom in child support. Yup that $700 goes so far when decent daycare is upwards of $900 in any major city. This issue is not an "urban" (I know you really mean poor black or latino) or women's issue, it's a global issue of justice, health, trust and reponsibility on all sides. So guess why legal, safe and obtainable contraception AND abortion are essential rights?
You can say what I should have done, but I thank God for legal abortion and feel fine about having rescued myself from my own naivete and a deteriorating situation. My son has a healthy, successful mother who loves him despite the circumstances that brought him here and I'm an empowered reborn woman!
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» Please read my comment about "women doing the right thing"
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 28, 2007 1:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...
The speaker was a 20-year-old mother of one, who was about to have her second abortion."
I'm sorry - but do these people know how they got pregnant in the first place? Do they know what _causes_ pregnancy?
Can they even spell "education"?!
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» RE: what the...?
Posted by: banshee413
» RE: what the...?
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: what the...?
Posted by: peacefullaim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hennep on May 28, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many years after that realisation i had a girlfriend who had an abortion (she was on the pill) and we were thankfull that the option existed instead of messing up our lives and careers that an unwanted (at the time) baby brings.
My view is that religon hates it as it gives fewer souls for saving, fewer bodies for cannon fodder, its not about the right of life which is a parental responsibility, after all they are the ones who made it and will have to devote 18 years of thier lives, money and freedom to give it a chance in the messed up world.
If all those pro lifers started donating billions of dollors to support the results of thier views (not having an abortion etc..) that they want to force on people maybe i would listen to them, but as it stands pro lifers are just plain stupid warped shills spouting garbage and not what is modern humanity.
It's the twenty first century not the dark ages so why do people still cling to the crap thats out lived its time, simple answer is they don't want real personal responsibility and give that right to an abstract that is manlipulated by power/control hungry shits that control all religon.
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Posted by: fanny666 on May 29, 2007 2:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MP3 interview Dr. LeRoy Carhart and his lawyer Priscilla Smith
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 29, 2007 4:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the 1960's (before abortion was legal) thet estimated abortion rate was about 85,000 - 90,000 per year. (god know how many women died, because hospitals never kept full records of these deaths).
Abortion has been legal for many years here now and the population has more than doubled since the 60's...and the abortion rate is still 85,000-90,000 a year.
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 29, 2007 5:48 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Abortion seems to be a much better option
Posted by: wheresarah
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Posted by: Progressive Citizen on May 29, 2007 6:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a goddamned sick tragedy.
With regards to abortion, the cause is the obvious no-brainer: unwanted pregnancy. And too many people will say, "oh, well, women just shouldn't be having sex without contraception." But in the real world, all too many women live with irresponsible, manipulative male partners who dominate their psyches and their lives, if not their economic survival (men still outearn women on average, and with our shifting sand economy, people need all the stability they can get).
For a woman to say "please use a condom or some contraception" to a man who dominates a woman's life does not usually get the intended results, to say the least.
That said, I do believe in making safe, effective contraception and condoms as widely available as possible to all. It's just that we also need to make a MASSIVE effort as a society to ensure that women have a safe space in which to avoid domineering male partners and to build relationships based on equality, trust, respect, openness and compassion.
Only then will we reduce the unwanted pregnancy rate, and with it the abortion rate.
It's just that much harder to do this when there's a mass movement organized against the principle of gender equality in relationships, whose leaders and foot soldiers alike are convinced that their God commands the subordination of women to their husbands. And these people have every right to believe what they do, they just do not have a right to expect society to privilege their reactionary values and give women's rights, well being and human dignity short shrift.
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Posted by: wheresarah on May 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, come on! It's not working in Africa, where AIDS is still spreading like wildfire thanks to abstinence-education!
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE SEX.
It is a biological must. It's instinctive for human beings. Poor, rich, and in between.
Once we accept the fact that PEOPLE WILL HAVE SEX, and forget the whole "keep it in your pants" or "keep your legs closed" bullshit, then we can make a little more progress. Let's forget about the morality of the choice to have sex, even unprotected sex. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
So, with that FACT cemented in your minds, can we please MOVE ON to debating the abortion and disease prevention topics with a bit more logic?
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Posted by: diamondvajra on Jun 5, 2007 3:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on May 26, 2007 1:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I had sufficient rank in the government, I'd launch some major campaigns to lower the cost of living. For example:
- New construction techniques to slash the cost of building a house, both labor and materials.
- Solar power on every roof to eliminate electrical bills.
- A conversion program to make cars electric and encourage manufacture, to eliminate reliance on gasoline and much of the maintenance costs.
Lowering the cost of living is the best approach to helping those in poverty because it helps society as a whole. Not raising taxes for social programs.
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: skewitall
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
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» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: JinpaG
» Inequality
Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: LPB
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Lowering the cost of living
Posted by: LPB
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: What does lowering the cost of living have to do with abortion rights?
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Free birth control and free sterilization for all !!!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Free birth control and free sterilization for all !!!
Posted by: techphile
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Posted by: algodees on May 26, 2007 2:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: Judithica
» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
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» RE: It is the poor
Posted by: AFWXMAN
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 26, 2007 4:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for projecting ones guilt onto others, and pretending your case is different and morally superior, this is just human nature. I'm sure lots of defense mechanisms and rationalizations kick in when you are in a vulnerable and emotional state.
All the adrenaline and solidarity of the feminist thing may have helped back in the early 70s. But you can't really expect that rush to last forever. Eventually the reality of your personal situation has to kick in. And I'd imagine it did for lots of women back then who got abortions, and found it wasn't the liberating experience it was cracked up to be.
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» RE: "Liberating experience it was cracked up to be?" What are you talking about?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: Guilt fantasies
Posted by: babaloo
» RE: Guilt
Posted by: JCrowe
» RE: Guilt is religiously-induced
Posted by: choice joyce
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 26, 2007 4:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If she's having an abortion, she's determined that she doesn't want children or isn't ready for children, and she's made a decision for herself. It's really disgusting that people can pretend they know what the "responsible" thing is for her to do. Given that we live in a rape culture where many women have little control over their sexuality (or contraceptive use), and given the uneven availability of contraceptives, and given the pathetic state of sex education...why do people continue to blame women for not being "responsible"? It's just another way for people to reinforce that women are irrational, unresponsible, overly emotional people who deserve inferior healthcare and discrimination.
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» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: babs
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: mjabele
» are we living in the post-patriarchy yet?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: are we living in the post-patriarchy yet?
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Personal Responsibility???
Posted by: thha
» Easy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: asy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: asy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: asy: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility
Posted by: Judithica
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 26, 2007 5:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've noticed a pattern where people like to blame things on feminists and feminist movement. After all, it couldn't have anything to do with the backlash against feminism or with conservatives and liberals who continue to militarize women's lives and slash social programs that help women. Nope, clearly it's the big bad feminists who have made life bad for women!
And for the record, I don't know many feminists, past or present who said the abortion "experience" would be liberating. They did, however, say that being in control of one's body is liberating, and it most certainly is.
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» RE: and don't leave out how bad the feminists have made life for men!
Posted by: judithkrain
» militarize women's lives?
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: militarize women's lives?
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: mjabele on May 26, 2007 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an internist and HIV specialist working at an inner city clinic, part of my job involves counseling patients about the importance of protection during sexual encounters - not so much to avoid pregnancy, but rather to avoid transmission of the HIV virus. Nonetheless, I'm struck by the number of women who tell me that their partners refuse to use condoms, generally for reasons having to do with personal gratification. This phenomenon seems far from uncommon even in relationships where the partners (ostensibly) love each other, and even in circumstances where the woman is seropositive and the male partner seronegative. Who is being irresponsible here?
Before we criticize women who become repeatedly pregnant as being "irresponsible", we need to take a good hard look at whether these women have access to methods of birth control that THEY can exclusively control, rather than depending on the cooperation of their male partners. And, though I don't really agree with frosty's comment that we live in a "rape culture", we should also acknowledge that there remains a subtle but persistent inequality of power in many consensual sexual relationships in our culture, and that women are typically the "disempowered" individuals in such situations.
During the year I worked in Malawi, I saw this sort of disempowerment of women in sexual relationships everywhere, and simply assumed it was part of the culture there (which, in point of fact, it is). But I was surprised to see, after I came back to the US, that it's also quite common here.
Prescription of birth control needs to be readily and freely available to all women, and women need to feel comfortable and secure in the knowledge that they can access such methods without endangering their relationship with a male partner, before we jump to the conclusion that women such as those in the article are simply being "irresponsible" in their reproductive behavior.
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» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: astudent
» The pill also requires a prescription...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The pill also requires a prescription...
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Why do we assume that the women in this essay were "irresponsible".....
Posted by: techphile
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Posted by: WitchyNy on May 26, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Should abortion be a hard choice? Absolutely. If nothing else, it should be that.
How many women abort due to poverty? In Australia-mothers are supported by the government if they divorce with two or more children....Australia WANTS more children. In Canada children are supported by the government..both countries have called for their women to have MORE children.
But here-we have a Democrat approved 93 BILLION dollar war to support.
Who has time/money to have children?
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» RE: Abortion should be safe and legal---BUT-
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» Abortion morphs into politics..
Posted by: zipper696
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on May 26, 2007 8:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: terradea on May 26, 2007 8:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Accidental pregnancy is not longer feasible (contraception is free, available to all and fool-proof);
2. The embryo or fetus can be removed from a woman who might die otherwise and gestated in someone else's body (pro-lifers (men included), perhaps?).
How dare any of you pro-lifers (or pro-life sympathizers) talk about what a woman should or should not be able to do with her own body? Shame on you. That's even against the christian religion (judge not; free will; let god decide; remove the board in your own eye; cast the first stone, etc.) - pro-lifers are nothing but hypocrites. Life may be sacred, but a woman's life is more sacred than that of an unborn, and until everyone understands that, women in this country are in danger of losing their status as individuals.
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» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: banshee413
» RE: Outlaw All Abortions ...
Posted by: LPB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wmoss2 on May 26, 2007 10:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In University I took a trip to DC with other students to attend a N.O.W rally in support of abortion rights. Before then, my global attitude was that abortion rights were a civil rights issue...simple. At the event I was shocked by the "dark energy" in the air. The people I were with were quite awful: calling fetuses "tumors, boils, pimples, parasites...etc."...it was pretty horrible. I saw many of the pro-life crowd throwing out awful words like "whore, sinner, murderer, etc.". I came out of that event with a changed attitude about the whole matter.
In my opinion, abortion is too complicated an issue for a simple resolution. Every individual case has unique circumstances, and should be judged on that basis. I don't like that idea that abortion is always okay or always evil. There has to be some way that people can apply some reason here.
The basic issues here: individual freedom, individual responsibility, social responsibility (and ethics), the value of life and practical economic issues. Of these, the one I think the most about is the value of life. I think this is the most contentious issue here. How does a person value life and how do they build a "hierarchy of living beings"?
I believe that most people value life proportionate to how similar that life is to one's self. So, we have people who refuse to eat anything "with a face", oppose the fur trade, oppose testing on (cute) animals, etc., while killing veggies, bacteria and viruses is just fine. We all do this, but to varying degrees. In the same way, I think this debate is occurring because of differing ideas about how to define this hierarchy for human life.
Many people are uncomfortable even trying to establish hierarchy of life for people. Some see all human life as precious (recall that whole Terry Schiavo affair) while others value human life based on some set of criteria: eugenicists, racial supremacists and pro-choice people. Pro-choice people put the fetus (or perhaps embryo) below the adult in the hierarchy of life; I suppose because it is so unlike us. The fetus has less brain-power, can't talk and looks "weird", so it is of less value. But this strikes me as being a bit artificial (almost as much as saying a retarded person or a black person is less valuable than a healthy white or Asian).
That being said, I still think this procedure is necessary and should be available and safe to women. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that people should consider it to be "just fine" and "not a big deal". I also think it unreasonable to expect that everyone should be non-judgmental towards women who have abortions. I think most sane people value life to some degree and abhor its destruction; abortion ends a life. How serious we feel about it, depends a lot on our personal life hierarchy and the exact circumstances that lead to the abortion in question.
Try to see the other side's point of view I guess. To use a small example, I don't agree with vegans, but I respect that they value animal life much higher than I do, and I accept that they may have a valid point. I try to be civil when I meet these people and to understand their point of view.
If any progress is possible (ands sometimes I really wonder about this...) on the abortion issue we should try to be civil and accept that we all have somewhat different scales for weighing life. Respect and reason should win the day...I hope.
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» The problem with respect and reason
Posted by: LPB
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 26, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Women shouldn't have sex if they cannot afford contraception and don't want a baby."
If they do, apparently they are bad people.
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» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: Apparently, only middle-class women can have sex
Posted by: frosty86
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Posted by: jackie on May 26, 2007 11:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» THANK GOODNESS FOR SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTIONS
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: janvdb on May 26, 2007 11:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When poor women take this impending situation seriously and RESPONSIBLY make the hard decision to abort children who would have been born into bad situations, they are DOING US ALL A BIG FAVOR.
They are doing the right thing and we should all express our appreciation to them.
Sure, they should have been more careful about birth control. But, 40% of US abortions are to women who were using birth control when they got pregnant. No one did anything "irresponsible" at all. They used birth control just like they were supposed to but they got pregnant anyway.
Those who weren't using birth control should have been using it, sure. But errors shouldn't be a reason for damning people to a lifetime of struggle and failure. People must be allowed to recover from errors or we will all end up living with the consequences of forcing people into failure. Missing one pill can result in a pregnancy. Good, responsible women make these mistakes, which seem minor at the time. Women succumb to pressure from men for unprotected sex. Mistakes happen.
Grow up and face reality. Mistakes happen. Responsible people deal with these mistakes early on so they don't snowball into major disasters.
Women who stand up, step up to the plate, correctly analyze the situation, take up the burden of guilt and crap dished out by people who like to see women broke and dependent -- women who go ahead and abort unwanted children should BE APPLAUDED. They are doing the unpleasant, but necessary, thing which protects all of us from the messes those unwanted children are highly likely to create in our streets and jails.
These women are DOING THE RIGHT THING.
The IRRESPONSIBLE women are those who fail to take this hard step, who let things slide, who let "nature take its course," who can't deal with reality, who don't mind messy, failed lives and who ultimately bear unplanned, unwanted, unfathered, unfunded, poorly-timed children -- children who are highly likely to do poorly in life.
We need to recognize that mistakes are made in failing to prevent pregnancy BY BOTH SEXES and the women who respond responsibly to these unfortuante situations by taking the difficult but necessary steps to prevent unwanted births are the RESPONSIBLE ones.
Women who bear children they don't want, can't afford, won't raise well, who have no fathers, who are born with three strikes against them, who end up dropping out of school, committing crimes and filling out jails -- these are the women we should be stigmatizing as irresponsible.
Jan VanDenBerg
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» RE: We should applaud these women for DOING THE RIGHT THING
Posted by: mtnprivy
» RE: We should applaud these women for DOING THE RIGHT THING
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mtnprivy on May 26, 2007 2:55 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By it's very nature, abortion is the use of deadly force against another human(who did not choose to be there), to impose your own will against one who is NOT YOU. Ask any expectant mother if that is "herself" inside her, and you will get a strong response. They know very well this is another person! Ask them if the violent termination of that "fetus" by an outsider should warrent a "murder" charge, and they will have equally strong feelings!
There is no doubt in my mind that abortion changes a woman's life forever. How can a woman think of herself the same after that experience? Many of them come to resent the provider who made it so easy to go thru without even a moment's pause for reflection. This idea has been expressed to me multiple times.
I was not raised in great wealth, and find the ease with which money is used to justify such an act as a sad statement about the pervasiveness of greed(ease of living). The material world that I was born into would have caused more than half of today's women to abort me immediately. I am so glad that my mother was able to see that I was an individual in my own right, and NOT HER. Perhaps women who cannot understand that this new life is NOT YOU should not raise children at all, but at least they could be adopted to another woman who could undertand and respect this new person.
Please don't act like the pro-abortion crowd is the true "live and let live" crowd, nothing could be more false. Having said that, I don't like the fact that so many "pro-lifers" are pro military, and for that matter, so many of us are pro-consumers(wasters) of the earth's limited resources. I like to live simply, so that others may simply live. Seems like we could all spend less time calling eachother names, distorting the facts, and more time trying to make the world a better place for us all.
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» RE: control of your body
Posted by: banshee413
» RE: control of your body
Posted by: Gisele
» A fetus CAN become another person IF the mother nurtures it but it's not one YET
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: A fetus CAN become another person IF the mother nurtures it but it's not one YET
Posted by: cinde
» RE: control of your body
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: control of your body
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: mtnprivy on May 26, 2007 3:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we do not learn from our (civilizations) mistakes, we are bound to repeat them.
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» Eugenics = govt forcing birth patterns = using the law to ban abortion
Posted by: janvdb
» RE: `hurray for eugenics
Posted by: Logic's Edge
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Posted by: Jamila Akil on May 26, 2007 3:28 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that someone needs to explain to these women that they are no better or worse than any other woman, despite the fact that they want to believe differently to avoid feeling bad about themselves.
The pro-choice movement has a lot of work to do about stripping the stigma from abortion.
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Posted by: Gisele on May 26, 2007 3:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That church going folk are using the services of abortion providers in such large numbers ought to be rather surprising. They would know that God holds the lives of the unborn in high esteem, to the degree that if a man were to hit a pregnant woman and she lose her child - the man was to be put to death.
But the ones that really piss me off on this topic are men, for a number of reasons.
"Keep your legs closed if you're not willing to take responsibility."
Let's do that ladies! Men seem to want to make the issue of abortion just one more of women's many sexual responsibilities - so let's look on it as a strength, not a burden. Rape is the only scenario where we truly don't have control of sex, the rest of the time we do - use it. Keep your legs closed until his eyes bug out, and he's willing to sign a statement saying he will take full responsibility for the child he may be helping to create. Responsibility for life.
"...if the woman is not using contraception,"
Guys, this is NOT just a woman's responsibility, it's yours. 100% of the time! If you need help Google "male contraception"...you'll find all kinds of info there. Including a real nifty shot that lasts for up to 10 years. Couple that with a condom and you're not likely to contribute to the population explosion. How many of you would be willing to take that step? A little worried about side effects maybe? Don't worry, it's not hormonally based so some of the nasty side effects we've had to deal with over the years won't affect you.
"..why should I support something I don't want,"
If you're willing to risk helping to create life, you better be willing to raise a child to adulthood. Or keep your pecker in your pants.
Instead of taking a life, let's put 50% of the responsibility where it actually lays - on Daddy. NAME him on the birth registration! When a man is sure that his name will be shown for all to see, and responsibility for his act will come home to roost - he's more likely to think twice about just how badly he really wants sex.
INTERVIEW FIRST! Ask him what his views on parenthood and abortion are - BEFORE you give yourself! If he's all for abortion in a country that's trying to ban it, why on earth would you even consider going to bed with him? "Well, if I don't then he'll walk," I've actually heard that one before...let him walk! Why saddle yourself with that kind of baggage? More than that, he's telling you he doesn't give a damn about you.
If a man wants to give you full responsibility for the sexual act - take it - Keep Your Legs Closed. Go buy a few sex toys you'll learn more about what you like, and unwanted pregnancy won't be an issue. On the brighter side you won't be contributing to an already over populated planet, you won't be creating canon fodder for future president's to use when they have a fart crosswise...and you'll be contributing to the economy. Even better than that you'll be helping men do something they avoid - taking responsibility for their own actions. Something few men do without being forced to.
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» THAT IS MY ADVICE.....JUST SAY NO. Now, I need some help!
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: thha
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: judithkrain
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: progressivevoice
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: A One-Sided Topic...
Posted by: peacefullaim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on May 26, 2007 7:07 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hold Fundamentalists Responsible
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: Hold Fundamentalists Responsible
Posted by: judithkrain
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Poe on May 27, 2007 7:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think we all have reproductive rights and with those reproductive rights come responsibilities. Both partners in a relationship, whether a one night stand or long term, need to be concerned about STD's, pregnancy and of course AIDS.
This doesn't seem to be of any concern, though, in America's inner cities. There are absolutely no valid excuses to engage in unprotected sex....none! Condoms are as readily available and cheap as candy in any supermarket, corner store, pharmacy or Planned Parenthood.
If you choose to engage in unprotected sex, and have no interest in bringing children into the world, then as far as I'm concerned, whatever the consequences, you are throwing your reproductive rights to the wind!
Society should always be there to help those in need, and I have no problem with our tax dollars, 60 hours a week's worth, helping the truly needy. But what I see happening, particularly in our inner cities, is hard earned money helping to support an irresponsible lifestyle. Young men who choose not to use a condom and young women who choose these young men. The end result....abortions used as birth control, or unwanted children being raised in broken homes with one parent too young to handle the responsibilities of parenting, and another parent.....well...pretty much non existent.
So young women in the inner city, with their whole life in front of them, throw it all away. By the time they're 25, they're uneducated, unskilled and burdened with raising one, two, three or four children alone.....which is pretty much impossible. Instead of being a teacher, she's a teacher's aide....instead of being a nurse, she's a nurse's aide....instead of a job in management, she's a cashier.
Jobs that were never meant to help raise a family.
Certainly abortion should remain a legal and safe procedure for all of the obvious reasons.
But, in a normal consensual relationship or "one night stand", there is no excuse for unprotected sex!!
Poe
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Posted by: frosty86 on May 27, 2007 9:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
are you willing to federally subsidize condoms, birth control pills, daycare centers, and research on safe and more reliable forms of contraception?
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» RE: abortion IS a type of contraception
Posted by: thha
» RE: abortion IS a type of contraception
Posted by: frosty86
» RE: abortion IS a type of contraception
Posted by: thha
» In point of fact, the Latin roots of the word "contraception" imply that abortion...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: In point of fact, the Latin roots of the word "contraception" imply that abortion...
Posted by: frosty86
» Well.....
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on May 27, 2007 9:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In time, the people will find that small families can be accommodated. But that's a major life change. I cannot imagine it, myself. But I am envious that they are learning while we are not.
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» Higher standard of living = lower birth rate
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: Pittsburgher on May 27, 2007 11:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I am certainly not in favor of women having abortions, and I do not believe that anyone would prefer that scenario, it is appalling to read of people judging other's lives. How presumptuous to think that one would know how one would behave with someone else's upbringing, education, financial status and general life situation. Not everyone can stroll off to the corner drugstore and plunk down their AmEx card to buy some condoms; there are more people in this country than some of you might think who must travel for 45 minutes to the grocery store, after they have found someone with a car to take them, and for whom it might well be a choice between buying condoms and three days worth of rice and macaroni and cheese to eat. I will assume that everyone discussing what others should do have never ridden in a car without a seat belt, never ridden a bicycle without a helmet, and not even once had sex without a condom. Or have they done those things and been lucky enough to emerge unscathed, and feel comfortable in sitting around judging what others with worse luck should do?
I would like to mention just in case it might be helpful to anyone that spermicides are reasonably inexpensive, available OTC, and should be acceptable to men who will not use condoms. They are not as effective as some other methods but are certainly better than crossing one's fingers and hoping for the best.
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» RE: Women who ALWAYS use birth control have abortions too!
Posted by: Poe
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Posted by: fork on May 27, 2007 11:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope this study is continued so that we can see how prevalent this view is, where people can rationalize abortion, but only for themselves. It certainly gives an interesting perspective on anti-choicers, particularly those who would never be in a position to require an abortion. An extensive investigation into this phenomenon would give us an idea of how many of those spouting "personal responsibility" and "killing babies" would, in all likelihood, consider an abortion themselves.
The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion
Not that I think these kinds of people are all intentionally and/or maliciously hypocritical, because we all harbour incompatible positions on one issue or another, but only by understanding how this occurs and how to influence it, can we begin to change hearts and minds. If most people find abortion acceptable (even if only for themselves), how can we harness this and extend this acceptance into empathy for others that find themselves in need of an abortion (especially since empathy is the basic tenet of most religions and belief systems - "The Golden Rule")?
From a Globe and Mail article, Saturday, May 26, 2007:
"One of the world's leading neuroscientists, Dr. Vilanayur S. Ramachandran, has written, "Our mental life is governed mainly by a cauldron of emotions, motives and desires which we are barely conscious of, and what we call our conscious life is usually an elaborate post hoc rationalization of things we really do for other reasons."
There are other mental structures that govern feelings and emotions, and these structures have a greater impact on decision making than logic or reason. . .
Neurologists and brain researchers have describe how disturbing images go straight to a part of the brain that is not mediated by language or reasoned analysis . . ."
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Posted by: Calicat on May 27, 2007 12:03 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For every woman who has an abortion there is a man who made her pregnant. Let's just keep that in mind when we go on about responsibility.
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» RE: 60% of women who get abortions are mothers
Posted by: Poe
» RE: 60% of women who get abortions are mothers
Posted by: thha
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Posted by: papillion on May 27, 2007 2:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My story?
I've had two abortions due to love, control and betrayal bordering on abuse.
A woman with a college degree, a great job, good family etc., I started having sex when I was in my twenties. Didn't use hormonal birth control because of the horrible side-effects, and since I didn't already have children, GYN didn't recommend an IUD. I relied on condoms, no problem.
I've only had two partners in my life - ever. The first boyfriend was very methodical and on-board with preventing pregnancy. Yea! Together about 4 years and NEVER had a mishap, accident or otherwise. Great! Amicably broke up.
Boyfriend Two? That relationship ended because he got me pregnant. That's right HE got me pregnant...not once, not twice, but three times. In the background, I wasn't entirely sure about our relationship, and ended it a few times, only for him to plead his way back. I loved him, but didn't believe that a permanent future was possible - different family and cultural backgrounds, opposing views, etc. Your 20s are for dating to decide what you want in a partner.
Disturbingly, my family and I started to notice he was a bit controlling: jealous, loved to monopolize my time, attention hungry while damn cute, educated, well-off and fun. Didn't add up.
The first pregnancy ended in abortion - after all, I had my life, education, and social standing to think of! He wasn't happy about the abortion, but didn't say much. Hmmmm. I chalked it up to the condom failure.
The second "uh-oh" he seemed so serene about, while I was freakin' out! I decided to keep this child because I felt so horrribly guilty about the first abortion, and feared for my soul...seriously. As the man, he wouldn't bear the societal shame, as so many commentors have proven, only me. So I went through with the pregnancy, got engaged and prepared for married life. He wanted to move to the West Coast (our families are all East Coast) and have a happy life, with me doing the stay-at-home thing for awhile. That was not the life I wanted, but in my social circle, you don't have kids outside of marriage.
When I was 8 months along or so, after an argument, Fiance with great flourish, revealed that he'd been sabotaging the condoms purposely for a long time. He feared, and rightly, that I'd end the relationship, and HE wanted to be a young, married Dad, and he taunted that I was tricked and trapped! Lovingly of course....
Betrayed, it took an entire year to come to terms with this information. Men, you can't know how devestating that was ... so now I have an unplanned child due to deception, future in a foggy quandry, don't trust the fiance, suffered untreated birth injuries (i.e. broken tailbone that took 6 months to heal...docs said "Oh that's nothing, you'll be fine..." My painful ass thinks otherwise!)
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» RE: Until Men Bear Their Fair Share of Responsibility and Shame...
Posted by: chinaskicharles
» RE: Until Men Bear Their Fair Share of Responsibility and Shame...
Posted by: Judithica
» RE: Until Men Bear Their Fair Share of Responsibility and Shame...
Posted by: chinaskicharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: papillion on May 27, 2007 2:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ha! Never again! This time, I marched his ass to Planned Parenthood and made him give a donation above the cost of the procedure! I strolled, singing, to the abortion appointment thinking of my freedom from this asshole, with him thinking I'd finally lost my mind. He grudgingly took me to an expensive brunch after, trying to humor me. Here's a move for you: when he went to the office the next day, I moved out! Smiling all the while, I haven't looked back!
Why did all of this happen? Because I trusted and loved. Does that make me stupid or irresponsible? No, because sex is a part of love, and sometimes, love, trust, sex, etc. are messy, chaotic and not governed by logic or rationality; for love, people do all sorts of crazy, irrational things.
Even if I'd been irresponsible (read: careless, promiscious), only one's God or conscious can pass judgement, excepting criminal action. Instead, when it comes to sex and reproduction, women are blamed! And heaven forbid you're a single woman with a child! Go join the nunnery, cloister or leper colony since you're a horrible, irresponsibile, undate-able whore. Meanwhile, the man who is the other 50% of the equation, walks around without a scarlet letter, everyone sure that his ex is scorned and hell bent on extracting a king's ransom in child support. Yup that $700 goes so far when decent daycare is upwards of $900 in any major city. This issue is not an "urban" (I know you really mean poor black or latino) or women's issue, it's a global issue of justice, health, trust and reponsibility on all sides. So guess why legal, safe and obtainable contraception AND abortion are essential rights?
You can say what I should have done, but I thank God for legal abortion and feel fine about having rescued myself from my own naivete and a deteriorating situation. My son has a healthy, successful mother who loves him despite the circumstances that brought him here and I'm an empowered reborn woman!
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» Please read my comment about "women doing the right thing"
Posted by: janvdb
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 28, 2007 1:18 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...
The speaker was a 20-year-old mother of one, who was about to have her second abortion."
I'm sorry - but do these people know how they got pregnant in the first place? Do they know what _causes_ pregnancy?
Can they even spell "education"?!
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» RE: what the...?
Posted by: banshee413
» RE: what the...?
Posted by: Gisele
» RE: what the...?
Posted by: peacefullaim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hennep on May 28, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many years after that realisation i had a girlfriend who had an abortion (she was on the pill) and we were thankfull that the option existed instead of messing up our lives and careers that an unwanted (at the time) baby brings.
My view is that religon hates it as it gives fewer souls for saving, fewer bodies for cannon fodder, its not about the right of life which is a parental responsibility, after all they are the ones who made it and will have to devote 18 years of thier lives, money and freedom to give it a chance in the messed up world.
If all those pro lifers started donating billions of dollors to support the results of thier views (not having an abortion etc..) that they want to force on people maybe i would listen to them, but as it stands pro lifers are just plain stupid warped shills spouting garbage and not what is modern humanity.
It's the twenty first century not the dark ages so why do people still cling to the crap thats out lived its time, simple answer is they don't want real personal responsibility and give that right to an abstract that is manlipulated by power/control hungry shits that control all religon.
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Posted by: fanny666 on May 29, 2007 2:00 PM
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MP3 interview Dr. LeRoy Carhart and his lawyer Priscilla Smith
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 29, 2007 4:41 PM
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In the 1960's (before abortion was legal) thet estimated abortion rate was about 85,000 - 90,000 per year. (god know how many women died, because hospitals never kept full records of these deaths).
Abortion has been legal for many years here now and the population has more than doubled since the 60's...and the abortion rate is still 85,000-90,000 a year.
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 29, 2007 5:48 PM
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» RE: Abortion seems to be a much better option
Posted by: wheresarah
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Posted by: Progressive Citizen on May 29, 2007 6:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a goddamned sick tragedy.
With regards to abortion, the cause is the obvious no-brainer: unwanted pregnancy. And too many people will say, "oh, well, women just shouldn't be having sex without contraception." But in the real world, all too many women live with irresponsible, manipulative male partners who dominate their psyches and their lives, if not their economic survival (men still outearn women on average, and with our shifting sand economy, people need all the stability they can get).
For a woman to say "please use a condom or some contraception" to a man who dominates a woman's life does not usually get the intended results, to say the least.
That said, I do believe in making safe, effective contraception and condoms as widely available as possible to all. It's just that we also need to make a MASSIVE effort as a society to ensure that women have a safe space in which to avoid domineering male partners and to build relationships based on equality, trust, respect, openness and compassion.
Only then will we reduce the unwanted pregnancy rate, and with it the abortion rate.
It's just that much harder to do this when there's a mass movement organized against the principle of gender equality in relationships, whose leaders and foot soldiers alike are convinced that their God commands the subordination of women to their husbands. And these people have every right to believe what they do, they just do not have a right to expect society to privilege their reactionary values and give women's rights, well being and human dignity short shrift.
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Posted by: wheresarah on May 30, 2007 10:06 AM
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Oh, come on! It's not working in Africa, where AIDS is still spreading like wildfire thanks to abstinence-education!
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE SEX.
It is a biological must. It's instinctive for human beings. Poor, rich, and in between.
Once we accept the fact that PEOPLE WILL HAVE SEX, and forget the whole "keep it in your pants" or "keep your legs closed" bullshit, then we can make a little more progress. Let's forget about the morality of the choice to have sex, even unprotected sex. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
So, with that FACT cemented in your minds, can we please MOVE ON to debating the abortion and disease prevention topics with a bit more logic?
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Posted by: diamondvajra on Jun 5, 2007 3:06 PM
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