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What Makes an Atheist Get out of Bed in the Morning?

By Daniel Lazare, The Nation. Posted May 15, 2007.


In their rush to throw out God, atheist writers appear to have given little thought to what should replace the deity.

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Imagine it's Paris in the spring of 1789 and you have just announced that you are an inveterate foe of tyrants and kings. Obviously, your message is not going to fall on deaf ears. But now that you've made it clear what you're against, what are you for? Do you favor an aristocratic constitution in which power devolves to the provincial nobility? Would you prefer a British-style constitutional monarchy? Or do you believe in all power to the sans-culottes? How you answer will shape both your analysis of the situation and the political tactics you employ in changing it. It may also determine whether you wind up on the chopping block in the next half-decade or so.

This is the problem, more or less, confronting today's reinvigorated atheist movement. For a long time, religion had been doing quite nicely as a kind of minor entertainment. Christmas and Easter were quite unthinkable without it, not to mention Hanukkah and Passover. But then certain enthusiasts took things too far by crashing airliners into office towers in the name of Allah, launching a global crusade to rid the world of evil and declaring the jury still out on Darwinian evolution. As a consequence, religion now looks nearly as bad as royalism did in the late eighteenth century. But while united in their resolve to throw the bum out -- God, that is -- the antireligious forces appear to have given little thought to what to replace Him with should He go. They may not face the guillotine as a consequence. But they could end up making even bigger fools of themselves than the theologians they criticize.

Richard Dawkins is a case in point. It is no surprise that, along with Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, and Daniel Dennett, author of Breaking the Spell: Religion As a Natural Phenomenon, he has emerged at the head of a growing intellectual movement aimed at relegating religion to the proverbial scrapheap of history (which by this point must be filled to overflowing). He's bright, obviously, a lively writer -- his 1978 book The Selfish Gene is regarded as a pop science classic -- and as an evolutionary biologist, he's particularly well equipped to defend Darwin against neofundamentalist hordes for whom he is the Antichrist. But Dawkins is something else as well: fiercely combative. Other scientists have tried to calm things down by making nice-nice noises concerning the supposedly complementary nature of the two pursuits. Einstein famously said that "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind," while the late paleontologist Stephen J. Gould once characterized the two fields as "non-overlapping magisteria" that address different questions and have no reason to get in each other's way. But Dawkins, to his great credit, is having none of it. Although he does not quite come out and say so, he seems to have the good sense to realize that no two fields are ever truly separate but that, in a unified body of human knowledge, or episteme, all overlap. Conflict is inevitable when different fields employ different principles and say different things, which is why an evolutionary biologist can't simply ignore it when some blow-dried TV evangelist declares that God created the world in six days, and why he'll become positively unhinged should the same televangelist begin pressuring textbook publishers to adopt his views.

Consequently, he's got to go on the warpath -- not only against the fundamentalists but against the sloppy logic and wishful thinking on which they batten. This is Dawkins's forte, and it is what makes The God Delusion such an entertaining read. Not one for politeness, he is the sort of fierce logic-chopper who chuckles nastily when coming across what he regards as some particularly choice bit of inanity. Discussing Arius of Alexandria, for example, infamous in certain fourth-century theological circles for maintaining that God and Jesus were not "consubstantial," i.e., not composed of the same substance or essence, you can almost hear him snicker: "What on earth could that possibly mean, you are probably asking? Substance? What 'substance'? What exactly do you mean by 'essence'? 'Very little' seems the only reasonable reply." Quoting a third-century theologian known as St. Gregory the Miracle Worker on the mystery of the Holy Trinity -- "There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son" -- he can't help sneering that "whatever miracles may have earned St. Gregory his nickname, they were not miracles of honest lucidity." Noting that the Catholic Church divides angels into nine categories, or orders -- seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels and ordinary members of the angelic rank-and-file -- he lets slip that "what impresses me about Catholic mythology is partly its tasteless kitsch but mostly the airy nonchalance with which these people make up the details as they go along."

This is not entirely fair. The Catholic Church does not just make such things up but has thought long and hard about angelic orders and other matters of equal importance. But Dawkins's outrage at the persistence of medieval ideas in the modern era is warranted. In fact, it's overdue. Also warranted is the sheer pleasure he takes in recounting a double-blind experiment funded by a whopping-rich outfit known as the Templeton Foundation to test the efficacy of prayer. Headed by a Boston cardiologist, Dawkins informs us, the study involved 1,802 patients in six hospitals who had just undergone coronary bypass surgery. Researchers divided the subjects into three groups: those who were not informed that church congregations as far away as Missouri were praying for their speedy recovery, those who were informed and a control group consisting of patients for whom no prayers were said and who were unaware that an experiment was under way. Church members were provided with each patient's first name and last initial and, in the interest of standardization, were asked to pray "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" in just those words.

The results, announced in April 2006, were a hoot. The first group of patients, those who had no idea that others were praying for them, did no better than the control group, while the second, those who knew they were the object of others' prayers, actually did worse. "Performance anxiety," the experimenters theorized. "It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" one speculated. Instead of accepting the results gracefully and conceding that the theory of intercessory prayer had been disproved, an Oxford theologian named Richard Swinburne complained that the whole exercise was meaningless because what matters to God is not prayer so much as the reasons behind it. But if the experiment had gone the other way and the patients being prayed over had outperformed the control group, we can well imagine what the reaction would have been. People like Swinburne would have shouted from the rooftops that God's existence had been proved and that we had all better beg his forgiveness double-quick.

But it didn't, and it is now clear that praying for a quick recovery is on par with crossing one's fingers and wishing for a Mercedes. Science is predicated on the assumption that belief is unwarranted without evidence and reason to back it up. But religion is based on the opposite: that belief in the absence of evidence is a virtue and that "the more your beliefs defy the evidence, the more virtuous you are," as Dawkins puts it. "Virtuoso believers who can manage to believe something really weird, unsupported and insupportable, in the teeth of evidence and reason, are especially highly rewarded." That last line is classic Dawkins -- provocative, pugnacious, even a bit over the top, but true.

As Dawkins admits, there is something distinctly nineteenth century about the new rationalism that he and others are promoting. It smacks of prairie populism and freethinkers like the wonderful Robert Ingersoll, who, in the post-Civil War period, used to crisscross the country, drawing thousands eager to hear him denounce the churches, poke fun at the Bible and sing the praises of Darwin: "Can we affect the nature and qualities of substance by prayer? Can we hasten or delay the tides by worship? Can we change winds by sacrifice? Will kneelings give us wealth?... Has man obtained any help from heaven?" These were questions that made Ingersoll one of the most popular lecturers of his day. Now, after the mushy ecumenism of the late twentieth century and the religious terrorism of the early twenty-first, a growing number of Americans plainly long for something more bracing.

But we are still in the position of the French revolutionary who has not moved beyond antiroyalism. Atheism is a purely negative ideology, which is its problem. If one does not believe in God, what should one believe in instead? Dawkins thinks he has an answer -- science -- but his understanding of the term is embarrassingly crude and empirical.

This comes through when he tries to figure out how "the God delusion" arose in the first place. Why did people latch onto an idea that we now know to be incorrect? Why didn't the ancient Israelites conduct their own double-blind experiment to determine whether sacrificing all those bulls, rams and occasionally children to Yahweh was really worth the trouble? Dawkins gropes for an explanation at one point in his book. He speculates that religious visions may be a form of temporal lobe epilepsy (which implies that there must have been quite an epidemic in Palestine when people like Elijah, Hosea and Jeremiah were raising a ruckus) but then lets the idea drop. He suggests that religion caught on because it confers certain evolutionary advantages but concedes that this is exceedingly hard to prove. He speculates that faith may be the result of a self-replicating "meme," the cultural equivalent of a gene. But after a murky discussion of "memeplexes" and genetic cartels, the reader is left with the uncomfortable feeling that Dawkins is lost in a tautological fog in which religion is self-replicating because it satisfies certain human needs and is therefore... self-replicating. Finally, he suggests that religion survives because it is comforting -- this, some 200 pages after conceding that religion is as likely to exacerbate stress as to alleviate it. (The last thing Old Testament prophets wanted to do was soothe troubled souls.)

Dawkins's sense of history is so minimal that it approaches the vanishing point. He is a classic example of the kind of shallow rationalist who thinks that all you have to know about history is that everything was cloudy and dark until the scientific revolution of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, at which point the sun began poking through. To quote Alexander Pope: "Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:/God said, Let Newton be! and all was light." Religion took hold at a certain point because people were stupid and benighted, but now that this is no longer the case, it should not hang around a moment longer. Yet it never occurs to Dawkins that monotheism is a theory like any other and that certain Jewish scribes and priests adopted it in the sixth century BC because it seemed to confer certain advantages. These were not survival advantages, since the Jews went on to rack up an unparalleled record of military defeats. Rather, they were intellectual advantages in that the theory of a single all-powerful, all-knowing deity seemed to explain the world better than what had come before.

Since Dawkins sees all religion as merely dumb, he can't imagine how this might be. Hence he can't see how the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator might cause worshipers to see the world as a single integrated whole and then launch them on a long intellectual journey to figure out how the various parts fit together. Roughly 2,500 years separate the Book of Isaiah, in which Yahweh first declares, "I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no god [44:6]," and Einstein's quest for a unified field theory explaining everything from subatomic structure to the Big Bang. Everything else has changed, but the universalism behind such an endeavor has remained remarkably constant. Dawkins blames religion for stifling human curiosity. But were he a bit more curious about the phenomenon he is supposedly investigating, he would realize that it has done as much over the long haul to stimulate it. For a world-famous intellectual, he is oddly provincial.

Christopher Hitchens's new book, God Is Not Great, is another example of atheism as an empty vessel, one he manages to fill with an intellectual justification for George W. Bush's "war on terror." Hitchens, of course, is the former left-wing journalist who astounded friends, colleagues and readers alike by coming out in support of the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Since then, with everyone from Richard Perle to Peter Beinart busily backpedaling as the dimensions of the disaster have grown more and more glaring, Hitchens has dug in his heels. Like John McCain strolling through the Baghdad markets, he is more defiant of reality than ever, more insistent, as he put it in a March 26 article in the Australian, that the occupation has made the world a better and safer place. In God Is Not Great, he has something unpleasant to say about nearly every believer under the sun -- except one. He trots out John Ashcroft's infamous remark that America has "no king but Jesus" and reminds us that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson both welcomed 9/11 as payback for America's tolerance of homosexuality and abortion. He informs us that Hamas has talked about imposing the old Al-Jeziya tax on Christians and Jews in the West Bank, while in Gaza in April 2005 Muslim militants shot and killed a young woman named Yusra al-Azami merely because she was sitting unchaperoned in a car with her fiancé. For those inclined to think of the late Saddam Hussein as a Third World dictator in the secular-nationalist mold, Hitchens points out that Saddam found religion after the 1979 Iranian Revolution, inscribing the words "Allahuh Akhbar" (God is great) on the Iraqi flag, building a huge mosque as a showcase for his new piety and producing a handwritten version of the Koran allegedly with his own blood.

Yet one person is conspicuously absent from Hitchens's list of religious evil-doers: George W. Bush. Yes, the man who said Jesus is his favorite philosopher "because he changed my heart" and, as governor of Texas, proclaimed June 10 as "Jesus Day," goes unmentioned. How can this be? The explanation has to do with Hitchens's subtitle. If "religion poisons everything," then it must be responsible for most of the evil in the world, since belief of this sort is currently so widespread and pervasive. If a political leader is religious, he or she must be bad, and if he or she is bad, he or she must be religious. This is why Saddam gets slammed for his cynical exploitation of Islam and why Bush, author of the Global War on Terror and the war on Iraq, both of which Hitchens supports, gets a free pass. If he is to be believed, our faith-based President is defending rationalism against religious intolerance. Despite Hitchens's anti-Stalinist credentials, arguments like these are so unscrupulous as to call to mind the Comintern of the late '30s and early '40s. Somewhere, Andrei Vyshinsky is smiling.

Hitchens's historical sense in God Is Not Great is perhaps even more stunted than that of Dawkins. Here he is, for example, attacking the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah, which celebrates the Maccabean revolt in 168 BC against the Seleucid effort to de-Judaize the Jerusalem temple and consecrate it to Zeus:

When the father of Judah Maccabeus saw a Jew about to make a Hellenic offering on the old altar, he lost no time in murdering him. Over the next few years of the Maccabean "revolt," many more assimilated Jews were slain, or forcibly circumcised, or both, and the women who had flirted with the new Hellenic dispensation suffered even worse. Since the Romans eventually preferred the violent and dogmatic Maccabees to the less militarized and fanatical Jews who had shone in their togas in the Mediterranean light, the scene was set for the uneasy collusion between the old-garb ultra-Orthodox Sanhedrin and the imperial governorate. This lugubrious relationship was eventually to lead to Christianity (yet another Jewish heresy) and thus ineluctably to the birth of Islam. We could have been spared the whole thing.

If only the Maccabees had stood by as Antiochus IV Epiphanes looted the temple treasury, the world could have skipped 2,000 years or so of religious fanaticism and proceeded directly to the founding of the Council for Secular Humanism. Needless to say, there is no sense here of historical progress as necessarily convoluted and complex, with lots of back eddies, side currents and extended periods of stagnation. But just as it takes a child a long time to mature, it takes a long time for society as well.

It would be nice to believe that anachronistic thinking like this halted at Calais, but Michel Onfray's Traité de athéologie, which has been given the hotter title of Atheist Manifesto for the American market, is not reassuring. Onfray is more philosophically sophisticated than Dawkins and Hitchens, and he is entirely commendable in his determination to hold Judaism, Christianity and Islam to the same rigorous standard. Whereas Sam Harris singles out Islam as "a religion of conquest," for instance, Onfray points out that it was the Israelites who invented holy war, that the Israelite god Yahweh "sanctioned crimes, murders, assassination...kill[ing] animals like men and men like animals," and that the Vatican has distinguished itself more recently as "a fellow traveler with every brand of twentieth-century fascism -- Mussolini, Pétain, Franco, Hitler, Pinochet, the Greek colonels, South American dictators, etc." Islam's division of the world into a land of Islam and a land of infidels is "not too distant from Hitler's," Onfray adds. But Harris should know better than to call it "unique."

This may seem fairly obvious. But with everyone from atheists to neocons jumping on board the anti-Islamic crusade, it bears repeating. Still, Onfray goes astray in the left-Nietzschean twist that he gives to his antireligious critique. Nietzsche's influence is evident throughout Atheist Manifesto -- in its high-wattage prose style, in its tendency toward aphorism, but mostly in its treatment of things like Judaism and Christianity as intellectual categories removed from their historical contexts. Onfray, to cite just one example, is extremely hard on St. Paul, whom he describes as a hysteric "driven by a host of psychological problems," a loser who "converted his self-loathing into hatred of the world" and someone whose "impotence and resentment took the form of revenge: the revenge of the weakling." None of this is surprising, given Paul's views on such subjects as celibacy (strongly in favor), marriage (only for those unable to forgo sex), slavery (accepting) and women (condescending, to say the least). But anyone who reads Paul in the context of the entire Bible -- which Onfray says elsewhere is the only way the Bible can be properly understood -- will likely come away with a different impression. His hysteria, such as it is, doesn't begin to compare with that of Hosea, Jeremiah and other Hebrew prophets, whose rages were truly volcanic. His political quietism is more explicable if one bears in mind that he believed that an impending apocalypse would soon put an end to all forms of injustice. His views on gender are more benign than is commonly realized, which may be why even pagans reported that women were among the first to convert.

Indeed, Paul was something new as far as the biblical tradition was concerned, a thinker, polemicist and organizer who was sober, practical and all but tireless. This is undoubtedly why Engels was so notably friendly toward him in one of his last essays. Not only did he describe Pauline Christianity as the socialism of its day but, referring to an epistle in which Paul reminds parishioners of the need to provide the new movement with financial support (which he describes as the "grace of giving"), he even commiserated with him across the centuries over the difficulty of squeezing party dues out of local members. ("So it was like that with you too!") Context for Engels was all. It was obvious from his perspective that someone like Paul could not be held exclusively to a modern standard but had to be judged on the basis of his historical role. So what has happened in the century or so since Engels wrote that essay that has caused otherwise admirable leftists like Onfray to lose their historical bearings? Could the baleful influence of Nietzsche, the favorite philosopher of overwrought 16-year-olds, have something to do with it?

Terry Eagleton shows a firmer grasp of the issues in The Meaning of Life -- far firmer, in fact, than he did in the verbal hurricane that he unleashed on Dawkins in The London Review of Books last October. That article, which earned Eagleton a warm note of congratulations from Peter Steinfels in his "Beliefs" column in the New York Times -- an indication of just how bad it actually was -- was filled with ex cathedra comments and unsupported assertions that Eagleton, a left-wing Catholic back in the 1960s, somehow thought he could intimidate his readers into accepting. Thus: Dawkins "does not see that Christianity, like most religious faiths, values human life deeply, which is why the martyr differs from the suicide." Or: "Because the universe is God's, it shares in his life, which is the life of freedom. This is why it works all by itself, and why science and Richard Dawkins are therefore both possible." Dawkins is a boor, in other words, because he is unable to grasp such ineffable truths. Yet both statements were nothing more than silly. Judaism concerns itself not with the life of the individual but the life of the nation, while Christianity saw the life we know as merely a prelude to the real life that will occur after the Resurrection. If the universe worked all by itself, similarly, God would have no need to intervene in it miraculously from time to time, as He does in both the Old Testament and the New.

With The Meaning of Life, however, Eagleton, the author of such works as Criticism and Ideology: A Study in Marxist Literary Theory and The Illusions of Postmodernism, goes back to channeling his inner materialist. When he mentions God, it is in the sense of an abstract principle that he identifies by the Greek term agape, or love. Needless to say, this is not love in the erotic sense of the word but as a cosmic force that is an expression of the deity's free choice in creating a material universe in which human beings can exist. Since Eagleton is coy as to whether he is speaking literally or figuratively, most readers will assume the latter. As a rhetorical device, it therefore allows him to make the point that the alternative to divine creation is not an empty and meaningless universe, as some moderns would have it. Rather, we can still see the universe as an intelligible whole, one whose "underlying laws," he writes, "reveal a beauty, symmetry, and economy which are capable of moving scientists to tears" (a rare point of agreement with Dawkins). If believers, according to Bishop Berkeley, believe that God invested the universe with meaning through the act of creating it, then nonbelievers can believe that people can invest life with meaning through a similar act of creating a mode of living that allows people to realize their full potential.

This supposes that meaning is not something that one discovers "out there," by, say, sitting on a lonely mountaintop and contemplating the heavens. Rather, it supposes that one discovers it "in here," that is, in society and through it. In The God Delusion, Dawkins notes that people might fill the gap left by religious belief in any number of ways but adds that "my way includes a good dose of science, the honest and systematic endeavor to find out the truth about the real world." The words "my way" are a giveaway, since they suggest that meaning is something we arrive at individually. Eagleton, by contrast, contends that individual meaning is a solipsism, because any statement about oneself -- such as "I am handsomer than Adonis" or "I am the greatest composer since Beethoven" -- is meaningful only to the degree it is recognized by others. Hence, "my life is meaningful" is itself meaningful only to the degree that other people view it as such and see their own lives the same way. Hence, meaning can be achieved only via a collective act of self-creation in which humanity creates new conditions for itself so that humanity as a whole can flourish. As a corollary, Eagleton adds that "since there can be no true reciprocity except among equals, oppression and inequality are in the long run self-thwarting as well." Freedom and equality are necessary for humanity to create a meaningful existence for itself.

In short, humanity creates meaning for itself by liberating itself so that it can fulfill itself. This is also a solipsism, but one as big as all existence. Odd, isn't it, that atheists can be right about God but wrong about religion and much else about the modern condition, while a believer can be wrong about God but at least on the right track concerning the current spiritual malaise?

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See more stories tagged with: atheism, richard dawkins, nietzsche, christopher hitchens

Daniel Lazare is the author of, most recently, The Velvet Coup: The Constitution, the Supreme Court, and the Decline of American Democracy (Verso). He is currently at work on a book about the politics of Christianity, Judaism and Islam for Pantheon.

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The connection...
Posted by: Monitor523 on May 15, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...between the premise and the conclusion. What is it? Lazare begins this article by implying that it will address the problem of how atheists reject God, but don't suggest what to replace Him with. The conclusion also seems to suggest that this is what the essay was about - the idea that atheists fail to embrace his favorite point of view of the meaning of life, and hence are in some sort of error.

As for the opening - if God is, as Victor Stenger's recent book tries to argue, a "failed hypothesis", a scientific attitude is to discard that hypothesis, whether a convenient alternative is to hand or not. By the time we reach the conclusion, it seems that the argument isn't so much about empirical reality, as about how humans find meaning. If feeling good about life and oneself is more important than empirical reality, this argument is fine - as far as it goes. The argument, then, seems to be not so much with atheism as with the whole "reality-based community" who think that facts should take priority over feelings.

Not to deny the importance of finding meaning in life - but presumably the meaning must be the meaning OF something. Before meaning can be found in any recognizable way, first one has to find out the characteristics of the reality OF WHICH it's supposed to be the meaning. First one finds out about the world, THEN one finds or creates meaning in it - logically, if not chronologically, since of course both processes continue all the time, undergoing constant revision.

On the matter of meaning, Lazare makes a reasonable suggestion at how to find meaning without God - but seems to imply that his selected atheists fail precisely because they failed to arrive at this conclusion. Apparently, as with religion in general - not to mention the Stalinism that gets a nod in there in relation to Christopher Hitchens - the process and methodology is less important than arriving at the approved conclusion.

That certainly fits the structure of the essay's argument, since the filler matter between the opening and the conclusion doesn't seem to have any coherent relationship to either of them. Instead, it's a laundry list of problems of historical perspective and contextual understanding of some selected atheist bestsellers of recent years. Apparently by "atheists", Lazare means Dawkins, Hitchens, and a handful of others, and by the failings of atheism as a philosophy, he means the technical or interpretive problems with their books. What should have been an argument connecting the intro with the conclusion, and supporting the claims they make, the five pages of padding that supposedly join them are nothing but an overly self-important book review drawing conclusions from nowhere.

Similes leap to mind, but modesty forbids.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The connection... Posted by: The Populist
Meaning without God?
Posted by: Logic's Edge on May 15, 2007 12:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's an interesting question.

When I'm feeling at odds with humanity and its failings, I remind myself that humanity may well be the only way the Universe currently has of knowing itself.

And who knows what future humanity has and what it might discover? It's easy to decry all our imperfections now, but what is won't necessarily last, and might be replaced by something superior.

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» RE: Meaning without God? Posted by: jroth420
Why do I need to replace God? There wasn't a god in the first place.
Posted by: Tatarize on May 15, 2007 1:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If something is false, it is to be disregarded. Period. I don't need to make a new invisible guy. You can have the rest of the universe. Billions of light-years filled with billions of galaxies and trillion trillions of stars, if that is still not enough for you, and you insist on begging the invisible for more... then there simply is no helping you.

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» What is he asking us to replace? Posted by: Monitor523
» RE: What is he asking us to replace? Posted by: Logic's Edge
» Not knowing everything Posted by: themotie
» RE: Not knowing everything Posted by: Swithun Mason
» RE: Not knowing everything Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Not knowing everything Posted by: Swithun Mason
» RE: Not knowing everything Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Not knowing everything Posted by: Swithun Mason
» Truly Irrelevant Posted by: bornxeyed
Here We Go
Posted by: NoPCZone on May 15, 2007 1:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know this is going to get me b-slapped all over this post, but I personally see atheism as a form of religion (hear me out). Although an atheist does not worship any god or gods, they have made a definite choice or decision regarding the whole concept. In some ways, that puts them closer to the 'theists' than agnostics and other doubters.

When a person makes a clear cut decision to be an atheist as opposed to a doubter or agnostic, they are essentially making the same type of choice that a person who chooses to follow a particular religion does. That very decision is going to inform their life, what they value and how they conduct themselves. None of the above is still a choice at heart.

I'm not an atheist, but would imagine that the motivations are about the same as anyone else. Most of the atheists I have met and known are among the most moral people I know. I attribute this to the fact that most atheists have carefully searched and compared different faiths and philosophies and know exactly why they have chosen to be an atheist.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Here We Go Posted by: themotie
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: themotie
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: wwittman
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: Monitor523
» Splitting hairs Posted by: themotie
» RE: Splitting hairs Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Splitting hairs Posted by: themotie
» RE: Splitting hairs Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Splitting hairs Posted by: casual
» RE: Splitting hairs Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: jroth420
» Here We Go AGAIN Posted by: bornxeyed
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» Agnostic = Pussy Atheist Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Agnostic = Pussy Atheist Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Agnostic = Pussy Atheist Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: Finaddict
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: chomsky
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: BobWilson
» It's even simpler than that! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Here We Go Posted by: bornxeyed
what to "replace" religion with???
Posted by: wwittman on May 15, 2007 2:15 AM   
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How about rationality?

that so tough?

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» Truism Posted by: themotie
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Determinism Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: what to "replace" religion with??? Posted by: parmenicleitus
Zeal of the de-converted
Posted by: abstractedaway on May 15, 2007 2:28 AM   
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As someone raised with so much religious fervor that I was said to be headed for the clergy who later converted to atheism, I have the following observations:

Atheists don't have churches, really, or the equivalent thereof. Typically they are busy living their lives. If the author wishes to see a lack of positives because of a lack of formal institutions, that's his choice, but I think he's looking in the wrong places. In my life as an atheist I have taken the time that would have been spent warming a pew or being guilt-tripped into my prayer closet to do more, including charitable work. "Prayer accomplishes nothing" is a negative that makes room for a positive. I sometimes join with theist organizations for causes like peace protests, and don't think I'm unique in doing so. In a world-view where there is no god, community is important indeed.

Engel's sympathy for Paul should not be such a shock. It is completely reasonable to appreciate people for where they come from, and the understanding they work with. Atheism leaves you free to learn whatever you can from any religion, after you've seen the parables and stories for what they are.

The real difference between religion and atheism is the means by which an atheist will judge that they know something. That was the key to my deconversion experience: I questioned how I knew what I thought I knew, and how I was different from any other fundementalist of any faith. It became important to me that words not have double-standards: when people say they have faith in other people, it usually has to deal with direct observation rather than the blind or handed-down experience we associate with religion. Each individual atheist has their own priorities, but the overlap is there. The rigor of the scientific method may not be directly applicable, but it is very instructive in how we gauge our intellectual honesty by actively testing it.

Don't begrudge Dawkins his playful sneering (sic). Sometimes in order to find something you believe in from actual experience, you have to be rid of illusions, and you cannot skip that.

The positives of atheism are often implicit rather than explicit, which the article would have done better to recognize earlier. It bears stating, though: you're right in the middle of it. You are wonderfully, terribly free along with your fellows in the universe. Enjoy it.

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» RE: Zeal of the de-converted Posted by: Centavo
The War of Science and Religion is so...19th Century.
Posted by: Sojourner on May 15, 2007 3:29 AM   
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Thanks for the book reviews. I doubt that I would have paid much attention otherwise.

I understand the critique of religion to be most adequate when it refutes the claim that one is less than human unless one uses the word, God. Even the New Testament tells us to keep our religion in the closet. That is, it is no one else’s business.

I continue to participate in organized religion because no where else do I find advocacy of the need for people to give—of themselves, of their resources—to each other.

If you tell me that there are lots of places other than institutional religion that promote generosity, I will agree. And then I will go into my closet and thank my God for the divine gratitude, by whatever name, that works in mysterious ways.

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» Hey guys, go for it! Posted by: Sojourner
» A Reposting Posted by: igoeja
» "The believer" in what? Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "The believer" in what? Posted by: bornxeyed
It's all over but the shouting
Posted by: hquain on May 15, 2007 4:17 AM   
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The whole anti-atheism thing is bizarrely culture-bound. Yes, my fellow Americans, there are whole countries out there where people by-and-large never think about God with a capital G. Old Europe is filled with them -- official state religions reduced the idea to a laughingstock long ago. There hasn't been a believer on the British side of my family for a hundred years (and then we lose track). Others do fine with some mix of indifference and low-level 'cultural practices'. Despite their failure to 'replace' religious belief with something equally grand, these poor unsanctified unfortunates manage to get on with lives pretty much as happily as we do. In the end, it's all about signaling your adherence to prevailing norms. This can be done, it seems, without the elaborate pretenses and intellectual degradation that the pro-theists want to force on us.

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» RE: It's all over but the shouting Posted by: MartianBachelor
Lady of the Lake
Posted by: goldie on May 15, 2007 4:28 AM   
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My personal reaction to the headline of replacing a lack of belief in a god is. "I don't NEED any replacment at all!" How arrogant to think that I'd have such a need. Rather typical of fundamentalists around here.

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» RE: Lady of the Lake Posted by: Xynyx
What replaces Santa Claus?
Posted by: richieb on May 15, 2007 4:48 AM   
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The article was way too long and I got lost somewhere on the second page. But why do we need to replace silly belief with something else? Does the author still believe that Santa Claus comes and brings presents every winter solstice? If not, what is the replacement belief?

There was a quote at the start of Dawinks' book "To be alive is miracle enough". That's what I like to think when I get up every morning!

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This is too complicated
Posted by: mongo164 on May 15, 2007 5:03 AM   
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There is an intellectual group that writes about and discusses issues to such a depth only about 4 people on earth can follow it all. The question posed is legitimate but the anguish you have to suffer wading through all this crap just sucks.

Aethiests get up in the morning to live their lives, not to think or say "What does Mr Magic want me to do today?" You don't have to write 5000 words of literary references to discuss the issue. Who cares what Dawkins said or wrote on page 300 in
1964? What has that to do with the question? Why don't you just ask some aethiests why they get up in the morning? Frankly, it seems to me the only value of this article is to reward the writer with self satisfaction about how well read and intellectually balanced he is and "Look at me, I'm a blogger on Alternet". And, to give me the chance to take a shot at him and vent my longstanding disdain for intellectual claptrap.

Why not just talk straight? Why would I believe in an entity that could create this unbelievably complex and diverse world and universe that we exist in and yet still needs us poor shmucks on this tiny little world to kiss his ass everyday? With all that power and intelligence is that all it has to do with it's time?l That god "must be some kind of idiotic jerk".

And I'd like to see if anyone knows where that quote comes from.

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When I Became an Atheist
Posted by: igoeja on May 15, 2007 5:10 AM   
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Who needs a god?

Like Einstein, I became an atheist at 12, and althoughh much of my criticism was directed at the Catholic Church, any major religion would have worked. My biggest criticsims focused on the hypocrisy and irrationality of belief systems, e.g., moral absolutism, "my god is the only god", the suppression of science, the practice of celibacy, the promotion of poverty, etc. My belief system, as some people assume it, trusts science - I am not faith-oriented and am anti-dogmatic - and my 'philosophy' is commonly termed secular humanism. As a belief system, Wikipedia defines it as follows:

Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance or a praxis focusing on the way human beings can lead good and happy lives (eupraxsophy).


As for myself, my concern is for people, the peope of the world, and the world in general; I care that people can live humane, pleasurable, and self-directed lives, free from authoritarian control. I possess a strong social conscience and am considered by others to be a ethical and moral person, albeit not moralistic. I think rationally about cause and effect.

Looking at the world, and knowing religion's relationahip to ignorance and misery, pity the believer.

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» RE: When I Became an Atheist Posted by: mirimac
Tip-toeing through the cosmological tulips
Posted by: Moonray on May 15, 2007 5:18 AM   
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As folks say down South: My, you DO go on!

First you start off blasting Dawkins and other sensible folks who have shed long overdue light on this religion nonsense -- even the despicable Christopher Hitchens, who has nothing else going for him.

Then, after meandering aimlessly through numerous pretentious cultural references, you wind up defending religion on the grounds that it makes us feel better about ourselves. Good God, if you will pardon the expression.

It's increasingly obvious that religious belief is a mental aberration, a common neurosis, and should be treated as such. True, this Father Figure Projection Syndrome (FFPS) has been around for millennia, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to live (and die) with it. Religion should be removed from the center of our culture to its fringes, and children should be protected from its influence. If you disagree, I submit the Mideast as Exhibit A. More car bombs, anyone? Take your pick -- we get rid of religion or eventually it will get rid of all of us.

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» Exhibit B: Midwest, USA Posted by: eddie torres
Unweaving The Rainbow
Posted by: hepkats on May 15, 2007 5:26 AM   
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It's important to point out while the author is chastising Richard Dawkins that Dawkins wrote a book called Unweaving The Rainbow that deals exclusively with the topic of finding wonder and inspiration in the universe without resorting to the supernatural.

The point of atheism is not replacing an unsupported belief system with another belief system. Rather it is acknowledging that there is ino evidence for the existence of the supernatural. Beyond that basic premise, though, I find it quite easy to look at the amazing universe around me and be awed by its beauty and complexity.

Plus, I love my wife and kids. I'm active in my community. I really dig music. I like reading good books. All these are down-to-earth reasons to get out of bed without God.

Thanks.

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An Analogy
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on May 15, 2007 5:44 AM   
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I recall when I was quite young, probably about three or four years of age, my big sister (one year older) asked me whether I believed in Santa Claus. I had not previously considered this question, but began to think through the immense implications. If there were no Santa would there be presents? What would be the point of Christmas? Would there be Christmas at all?

These are pretty frightening thoughts for a three-year-old who was aware that Christmas was the most exciting event of the year. Nevertheless, I eventually out-grew any belief in Santa and found to my pleasant surprise that there were indeed still Christmas presents and Christmas decorations and Christmas parties. Not much really changed except that in some important way I felt I had matured.

Likewise if you were to outgrow your belief in God, you would find that there would still be as much beauty in the world, you would still wonder as much at nature and you would experience as profound a sense of the importance on morality as ever before. You would simply grow to understand that these are human experiences and not something imposed on humans by a God. Your appreciation of life would not decrease in any way, you would simply understand it in a different way.

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» RE: An Analogy Posted by: themotie
» RE: An Analogy Posted by: JoAnne
NOT THIS ARTICLE
Posted by: chalet on May 15, 2007 5:45 AM   
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If I thought I had to read this article I would never get out of bed. A soporific if I ever saw one. And what is the point, anyhow? To believe in superstition instead of living your life?

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I'm an atheist...
Posted by: sausage on May 15, 2007 5:48 AM   
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...And what gets me out of bed in the morning is the cat.

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» RE: I'm an atheist... Posted by: Jimsabis
» I am also Posted by: Veronique
» RE: I'm an atheist... Posted by: Mamarianne
» RE: I'm an atheist... Posted by: HeroesAll
I can't believe I read the whole thing.
Posted by: edraven on May 15, 2007 5:50 AM   
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Your very long post about atheists is a good example of why I hate the term Atheist.

You spend the entire time talking about non-believers from the perspective that they have something missing in their lives. Well, I can't have something missing that is not there.

The word atheist implies that there is a God, and I don't believe in it. That's nonsense.

Try rewriting you article (that should be punishment enough) from the perspective that god is a made up concept and affects only those who are delusional.

"A man should look for what is, and not what he thinks should be." A quote from Einstein who is so often misquoted by church people.

Ed Graham

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» You got it! Posted by: Dan Metcalf
alternet reader Dan
Posted by: alternet reader Dan on May 15, 2007 5:54 AM   
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The claim that atheists haven't thought about what should replace the "God" and compulsion of religion is absurd and false. To take just one example, Charles Bradlaugh (1833-91), founder of the National Secular Society which is seeing so much current growth in England, edited a paper called The National Reformer for over 30 years, In it, he and others wrote repeatedly about the moral, civic, and even personal hygiene and family sanitary responsibilities of people who had freed themselves from the strictures of religion. Bradlaugh spent decades lecturing throughout Great Britain, mostly to working class audiences of secularists and freethinkers. These people were for the most part less interested in the philosophical implications of building a complete, overarching "theology" of atheism, as intellectuals then and now seem obsessed with doing. They were trying to improve their lives, their working conditions, their access to the political process (Bradlaugh was also a campaigner for voting rights in 1867, leading Hyde Park demonstrations that pressured the British government into expanding the franchise to the working classes). The church was an instrument of conservative political forces, and a source of reactionary ideology that was in the way of human progress. Then as now.

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Replacing What with What?!
Posted by: Windwhistler on May 15, 2007 5:58 AM   
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Its absurd that I should somehow worry about replacing a concept that has never been clearly defined (God, god etc.) with another equally non-defined concept (?). I haven't got time to worry about such garbage. I've too busy experiencing and appreciating life as I know it and live it.

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What drives a two year old to get up every morning?
Posted by: lb on May 15, 2007 6:05 AM   
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And don't tell me it is their belief in God.

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» They're on springs. (NM) Posted by: HeroesAll
Atheism intensifies meaning
Posted by: mandiwrite on May 15, 2007 6:05 AM   
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I have recently had to deal with the prolonged illness and death of a beloved family member, my dog, and am now dealing with the terminal cancer of a friend, and I can tell you something for sure: being confident that this life is all there is makes my relationships with those I love sweeter, and the time more precious. Atheism or agnosticism intensifies meaning. And I can't help observing that my husband and I, in our own quiet way, do far more to help the poor and unfortunate through active engagement with individuals than many we know who spout off constantly about their faith - I can't help wondering, again, if that's because we feel an urgency to help in the here and now that our believer friends don't?
PS: I take joy in noting that my atheist/agnostic peers posting here show signs of intelligence both in the way they frame their posts and in the fact that they bother to spell words accurately!!

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Atheism and nihilism
Posted by: apeshow on May 15, 2007 6:08 AM   
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I prefer the term agnostic for the very reason is that nobody knows anything. Atheism is too nihilistic of a view for me. A more philosophical look into our existence makes more sense. Do I believe in a charismatic god, hell no. But the possibility of multiple layers of existence is plausible. For you hardcore atheists out there take the words of Trent Reznor with you.
"God is dead and no one cares, if there is a hell. I'll see you there!!"

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» RE: Atheism and nihilism Posted by: bornxeyed
I'm an atheist
Posted by: messedup on May 15, 2007 6:29 AM   
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And like most people, what gets me out of bed in the morning is my alarm clock, I still go to church once in a great while, ok once about every 5 years! It's a perfectly good use of time for allot of people but not me, maybe I just found other distractions in life, besides.., religious people tend to make me nervous sometimes.

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» RE: I'm an atheist Posted by: apeshow
Stupid!
Posted by: heid on May 15, 2007 6:30 AM   
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This is about as stupid an argument as can possibly be imagined. Since when does there need to be a replacement for something that doesn't exist?

Let's say I come up with a concept: All cockroaches have an autocrenensis, which is what gives meaning to life. Someone else comes along and says: "That's just plain stupid. There is no such thing as an autocrenensis." Does that mean that it's necessary for those who believe in an autocrenensis to find something to replace it? Obviously not. There is no difference between the argument that one must come up with something to replace an autocrenensis than there is in claiming that the atheist must come up with something to replace the concept of god.

It's just plain stupid to suggest it. It's called circular logic. The author starts with the assumption that there's a god, then uses that to argue that those who don't believe in his basic claim must find something to replace it.

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no negativity here
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on May 15, 2007 6:39 AM   
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"Atheism is a purely negative ideology, which is its problem."

I disagree. I see atheism as positive. We atheists tend to be self-reliant, accepting responsibility for our actions and unfettered by superstition. I don't need an imaginary friend to tell me to be kind to others, honest, peaceful, appreciative of all the good that surrounds me, or committed to trying to right the wrongs in the world.

Recently I went to a high Catholic funeral mass, and wondered why so many people think that going through intricate rituals led by a costumed figure before a tortured semi-nude figurine will change their lives. I suppose it's because they need external answers to unanswerable questions and guidance through things atheists are comfortable navigating on our own. That's fine if they believe it makes their lives better. I draw the line when they try to force their beliefs on me.

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» And I get out of bed in the morning Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: no negativity here Posted by: Jimsabis
Love Evolved Before Religion
Posted by: Michael LaFlow on May 15, 2007 6:42 AM   
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As an atheist, I have all the same feelings of love, wonder, optimism, joy, ethics, and fascination with the unknown that developed through the evolution of people. Christians attribute them exclusively to their god, but they were part of humanity long before religion. I used to be religious, but I found that religious concepts of god were far too limiting and polarizing.

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AAAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: nosylae on May 15, 2007 6:41 AM   
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Why do I have to "replace" a god? As other posts have mentioned - There is nothing to replace. The only thing I want to replace is AlterNet for allowing such crap to constantly invade its site. Where is the balance on this site when it comes to "religious" articles? Its like for every 5 articles on belief, there is one about atheism and it's never talked about in a positive light.

Why do normal, rational, thinking people (like I assume most AlterNeters are) feel it neccessary to argue on "their" level? By "they" I mean the "God Believers." Every argument starts with the presumption that there is a god and if you don't believe, you need to defend that belief. Why don't "they" ever have to defend their beliefs? And I don't mean defend their religions, I mean their beliefs. We must re-frame this argument and put them on the defensive. If they actually started thinking about what and why they believe . . . nah, it would never work. Ever since 9/11, logic has flown out the window and now if you don't believe in some crazy superstition, there must be something wrong with you. Like we are on a Crusade.

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Evolutionary Advantage of Theism
Posted by: Xynyx on May 15, 2007 6:46 AM   
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While this may be current, and localized, and perhaps truly only illusory, it certainly is personal:

The significant evolutionary advantage that I can see to theism is that I would probably have had a much easier time getting dates and would, in all likelihood, probably be married and have children, were I not an atheist. But I am, and I'm not, so there it is.

In my own personal experience, far more women who believe, in one way or another, have been available than women who do not. So my choices are to get lucky, adapt, or move... otherwise I disappear, biologically.

I will not be adapting, in this manner. Oh, no.

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» advice for atheist dating Posted by: EasterBunny
» another option Posted by: MartianBachelor
Why do we atheists get out of bed in the morning?
Posted by: pzbrawl on May 15, 2007 6:46 AM   
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Because there's so much to do, learn, see, hear, feel, think, enjoy, study, fix. Because the world's so interesting. Because we love some folks and need to see them, speak to them, hear them, do for them. Gods make no contribution to any of these motivations.

The Catholic Church "thought long and hard" about angels when they were making that stuff up. From which what follows, exactly? Nothing.

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The answer is we don't replace God with anything.
Posted by: nopuppy on May 15, 2007 6:51 AM   
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The whole point of atheism is that a deity is not necessary! Anyone who asks this question is so blinkered by the need for authority that they can't even comprehend what atheism is. For those folks, I shall explain: atheism means "no god," "without a god." It's from the Greek, a privative + theo, "no god."

There is nothing to replace. And frankly, it is way past time that we atheists get militant. I love to see the religionists leaping in with panicked rebuttals (that have about as much force as those old arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or the Vatican's recent decision that unbaptised babies don't burn in purgatory - saying to all the dead ones who crawled through purgatory for 2000 years, "Oops! My mistake!").

Eventually I hope that simple reality will win out, if the human species continues, though humans have a miraculous ability to create unreality. (My mother's so afraid of reality that she's now speaking regularly to a guardian angel and urging me to do the same, or at least talk to my dead grandfather, who might help me. And let's not forget her bargaining with God, "Make my back pain go away and I promise not to complain anymore." Um, if the pain is gone, do you have a reason to complain? And is God a madioso, "Pray to me or I'm gonna cause you such pain!" Is that a god worthy of belief?) In the meantime we simply have to keep shutting the mouths of the desperately fearful religionists with the calm voice of reason.

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» Replacing nothing with ... Posted by: mirimac
Best book on the subject...
Posted by: Constandse on May 15, 2007 6:51 AM   
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I suggest reading Carl Sagan's book, The Varieties of Scientific Experience. Because the book is made up of a series of Dr. Sagan's lectures it not only makes a great case for atheism, it's an incredibly beautiful and inspiring piece of writing (not something that can be said about some of the books mentioned in the article). The book does not advocate replacing god with something else, but Dr. Sagan invites the reader to let science, mainly astronomy, fill in whatever gap might have been left by religion. I doubt that there are any scientists out there that have problems finding a reason to get up in the morning.

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otto
Posted by: otto on May 15, 2007 6:56 AM   
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Interesting and thought provoking article. I believe that an important truth or factor is that both theism and atheism are belief systems; you either believe that God exists or you believe that God does not exist. Modern science depends on sense verification, and one side presumes that nothing can exist beyond the realm of our senses while the other presumes that there can be and is a whole realm of reality and mystery that goes beyond our sense knowledge. Both can offer arguements that one position is more reasonable than the other. I would like to see some study done in which we just call God "Ultimate Reality" (my position, but accepting the Christian Judaic tradition, along with other religion's insights). I believe that God exists and works, at least ordinarily, in realistic ways; there is harmony between nature and "supernature". Religious people can use religious terms, and atheists can say that Reality determines how things are and will be. Either side can look for harmonious ways to make our world better. I have had fun working on social issues with atheistic friends, as we ribbed each other about our views, and been annoyed with "fellow Christians" who just don't see the point of social action. I think Jesus' call to love our neighbor (and everyone is our neighbor!) implies this; apparently Gandhi saw this lacking in the lives of too many Christians.

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» RE: otto Posted by: Xynyx
» Ready, willing, and able Posted by: eddie torres
Most Christians truly don't believe in god. - Fact
Posted by: apeshow on May 15, 2007 6:57 AM   
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If they did they would live much differently. There are a few who drank the kool-aid but most just buy into the farce to not buck the system.

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Ultra Dark French Roast
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 15, 2007 6:59 AM   
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Ultra Dark French Roast is what gets THIS atheist out of bed every morning.

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The unknowable drives both science and religion
Posted by: haystack1317 on May 15, 2007 6:57 AM   
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Most of the great thinkers, scientific and otherwise, have ackowledged that a force beyond comprehension exists in the universe. Most religions have as their seeds the acknowledgement of this unknowable and unnameable energy, but the message almost always becomes dominated by those seeking to use it for personal power. There is no chain of thought in the scientific world that ends with a final, concrete explanation. Every answer begs another question, which is one of the wonderful things about scientific pursuit.

To deny that there is an unknowable force, even if we're talking about, say, the force that makes the strings of string theory vibrate, is to reject the very essence of scientific thought, which always asks the next question. Acknowledging that there will always be the next question is acknowledging what some call "the mystery." People speak of the union of science and religion as if MIT and The Vatican ought to get together and come to an agreement on some things. That's preposterous, of course, because you're looking only at specific, institutionalized expressions of these ideals. At the end of the day, those involved in science would be better off if they didn't have instant negative reactions to religion caused by the millions of people who have distorted its essence - the desire to explore the mystery of the energy at work in the universe - with the worst human failings. Those involved in organized religion would do better to acknowledge that the essence of their desire, to better know that which they call God, is a pursuit with no enemy which can only be aided by scientific knowledge of the workings of the universe.

Again, it is not the pure core of either science or religion that results in conflicts. It is the distortion of those central pursuits by human institutions. All anyone has to do to make the question irrelevant is to remind themselves of the true center of their pursuit. Science and religion both explore forces beyond our comprehension. If so-called Atheists (I understand the resistance to that term) don't wrestle with these questions, that should be irrelevant to people who do. Those who pursue any goal with total commitment, scientific, religious, or otherwise, know that the journey is internal and the only enemies in existence are internal as well.

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meaning is overrated
Posted by: karyse on May 15, 2007 6:59 AM   
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I, like many others who posted, was about twelve when I realized I didn't believe in any god. I didn't start calling myself an atheist (using agnostic instead) until I read George Smith's book. In it he claims that it is the Christian who is the agnostic -- can't know the mind of god, and all. But more importantly he defined "atheist" as living without belief in god, as opposed to denying the existence of god.

Of late I've come to realize that believers have an overinflated sense of their own importance and apparently NEED to be important. The number of their hairs are counted by the invisible guy in the sky. I've never had this need and fully realize that in the great scope of things I am completely and utterly insignificant -- and it doesn't bother me in the least, perhaps because I know that that is just the way that it is.

To have a great and glorious "meaning" or "purpose" to MY life smacks of a kind of weird hedonism where one seeks pleasure in pain (death), or of a narcissism wherein the narcissist knows at some level that his/her belief in his/her self-importance is wishful thinking at best.

Only the believer gets out of dying and while beleivers claim that everyone can get out of dying by following program x,y,or z, the beleiver really couldn't give a you know what about what happens to anyone else. They would be happy in an eternity of just them and god. Well, and maybe a couple of angels here and there.

Oh, and I get up in the morning to have a cigarette, a cup of coffee, feed my dogs, do the laundry, go to work, talk to friends and family, go surfing, ride my bicycle, wash my car, write something, and so on. That's all and it's enough.

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Major and Minor
Posted by: secretchief on May 15, 2007 7:20 AM   
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The initial question is funny. To me, religion can indeed be replaced, be it by pundits, a dominating husband or wife, or any other figure you submit to. Kant was already talking about this, speaking of the minority of people under religion. He was offended that people would not use their brain and submit blindly to religion, which was the "en vogue" authority figure at the time.

If you truly want to replace what's bad in religion, you have to replace minority with majority, and start educating and trusting yourself instead of just choosing who you will submit to.

This difference exists in the realm of science as well, even though a lot of people seem not to have noticed it. You can either invest the time and efforts to learn enough about the scientific method (and the specifics of various sciences, if you have time) and solidly trust your opinion, or you can just choose your "science pundit" and repeat the mistake of being minor all over again.

So what do you replace religion with? I say self-confidence, and enough courage to accept that not all situations are easy to analyze, and not all questions have a simple, clear cut answer.

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» RE: Major and Minor Posted by: Veronique
» RE: Major and Minor Posted by: secretchief
Replace What?????
Posted by: chasaturn on May 15, 2007 7:29 AM   
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There's nothing to replace. "Imagine..."

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I believe that the Universe is alive
Posted by: UnEasyOne on May 15, 2007 7:34 AM   
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I believe that our father the sun and our mother the earth are sentient beings who brought forth life on our planet. Let me tell you kids, mom and dad are pissed!

When I was on the road, I used to say the lords prayer - to the sun - when I was hungry, with particular emphasis on "Give us this day our daily bread" whenever I was hungry. In every case, within 15 minutes someone would pick me up and offer me a meal. I got so confident this would work that on several occasions I told other hitchhikers that I was gonna pray and this would happen. Not sure which was funnier - their reactions when I said it (shrinking away in case I completely flipped out) or their reactions when grandma and grandpa types in a late model car (NOT the types who usually stopped to pick up a hitchhiker) pulled over to offer me a ride. Never failed. Usually they would say something like this (almost word for word.) "I don't know why we stopped to pick you up, we never (or almost never) pick up hitchhikers. But there was something about you... Anyway we were about to stop for dinner. Would you like to join us?"

Don't believe me? Cool with me - hell, if I hadn't been there I probably wouldn't believe it either.

Years later, I prayed to our mother the earth to "send me an angel." That had no effect for a long time, then I began to pray that I would recognize her when I saw her. A few months later I saw a girl who literally had a golden glow around her. The more I found out about her, the more I (and everybody I knew) realized that I had no chance at her and that I had lost my last marble. I persisted anyway and we married three weeks after we met. That was 15 years ago and she has been an angel to me.

So, am I the leader of this "religion", you ask? I lead myself to the bathroom whenever I need to go.

"Do I have a pamphlet, or a website?" Uh - no.

"What will happen to me if I disagree?" Nothin.

"Did you have a divine revalation?" Hell no! I tried an experiment or two and they worked. I have guesses and theories as to how and why - that's it.

"How many members are there?" One for sure - maybe millions - how the hell would I know? What difference does it make anyway?

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» But, do you have a compound? Posted by: eddie torres
» Starting your own religion Posted by: MartianBachelor
Yucchh!
Posted by: LMNOP on May 15, 2007 7:39 AM   
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"Dawkins's . . . chuckles nastily when coming across what he regards as some particularly choice bit of inanity."

Nonsense. What's nasty about laughing at the insane pronouncements of the religions, especially America's tawdry dominant religion which teaches that reason is inferior to blind belief in what you are told to believe? Laugh out loud at that one enough and maybe they'll stop saying it.

Does it offend some Christians to do that? Chrristianity is an offense to non-Christians every day. If you are a nonbeliever, Christianity teaches your neighbors that you are not only not worthy of any reward in the afterlife, or to meet or be with your creator - you don't even deserve a merciful extinction. You are so vile in the eyes of the only good thing in the universe that you deserve eternal torment.

If you belong to an organization that says or implies such things about me, I have little reason to concern myself if my opinions about your club are offensive.

And as for this fairy tale being comforting, I get more comfort from believing that the horrible things that happen are often merely bad luck, not the result of the actions or neglect of someone who could have chosen a kinder outcome, but didn't.

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Individual Liberty and Social Justice should be Our "New Religion"
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on May 15, 2007 7:46 AM   
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We have the technological capacity right now to feed, cloth, house, educate, and provide health care for all humanity.

The only thing we lack is the resolve and coordination needed to make it a reality.

Democracy and Capitalism are great systems for regulating a large majority of activities.

But Democracy is mob rule and does not ensure human rights or Liberty and Capitalism's rule by the economically rich does not stop people from going hungry.

If we choose to make individual liberty and social justice issues our "new religion" we could be headed for paradise on earth in our future.

A world where not only do we have the freedoms currently enjoyed by the U.S. constitution but freedom from consensual crime laws as well. A world where are all free to decide for our selves what we want to do with our own bodies. No anti-drug laws, no anti-prostitution laws, no anti-abortion laws, no burqa laws, etc.

A world where the essentials of life:
clean water,
food (organically grown without pesticides and synthetic chemicals),
housing (energy efficient, zero energy housing),
education (K-Doctorates along with many courses available online if they are subjects and lessons that don't require as much teacher involvement), and
health care (a single payer system where physical and mental health is routinely checked up on and patients who are ill are free to get the help they need)
are freely available to all.

A world where humanity seeks to leave the smallest environmental footprint possible so that non-human life will continue to flourish on our lands and in our seas.

Making that dream a reality should be our new religion.

Unfortunately I don't see these large scale societal changes coming from government, it has been too corrupted by men with power whose only interest is more power.

I think it will have to come from a new religion or charitable organization that actively seeks to supplant the old order of government and economics.

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What Voltaire said
Posted by: velid on May 15, 2007 7:48 AM   
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"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the Christian sect in horror. But what shall we substitute in its place? you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast, and you ask me what you shall put in its place?"

Voltaire (1694-1778)

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» RE: What Voltaire said Posted by: LMNOP
Why atheists are moral...
Posted by: Frish on May 15, 2007 7:49 AM   
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Atheists haven't necessarily "studied" religions/philosophies, and doing so won't "teach" you to act in a moral fashion. We act "morally" as it is a built in feature of our physiology. If we didn't have this governor on our behavior, we couldn't be social animals. It is that basic to our make-up, being pre-wired to "do unto others as you woud have them do unto you". That is the reason that all world religions share that dictate, they recognized it as universal, and choose to use it to spread the rest of the fluff.

The creation of imaginary god(s) and a "soul" has to do with our also ancient recognition of our own demise.

Combine these two items with a hierachical class society, with 80 percent of the wealth owned by the top 2% and you get the rise of a priest class that assist the top to remain there.

"You sin, therefore spend your time praying about the next life, which shall be your reward for not causing trouble during this life."

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What can we replace this article with?
Posted by: Fog on May 15, 2007 8:00 AM   
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I don't believe in this article. I therefore must replace it with something.

What crap.

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The Jesus Mysteries
Posted by: haystack1317 on May 15, 2007 8:02 AM   
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Growing up, I felt a resonance with some Christian teachings, such as "turn the other cheek," but was continually appalled by the actions of organized Christian institutions. Not long ago I found a book which explained a hell of a lot on this subject (oops........ blasphemy) and I would recommend it to anyone trying to understand how messages like "do unto others" were distorted into the official church's actions in the last 2000 years. It's called "The Jesus Mysteries." It looks at the way in which Christianity was formed out of a fusion of Judaism with Greek Mystery religions. (If you don't think that's true, just compare the old and new testaments.) The ties are so strong that even one of the primary symbols of Christianity, the fish which you see above the rear bumpers of cars right next to the "Christians aren't perfect..... just forgiven" stickers, is a direct borrowing from Pythagorean geometry. The fish actually represents the interesection of two circles, as you can see when looking at it. It's not just any fish. It comes from a culture, that of Pythagoras and Plato, in which science and religion were inseperable.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Christianity started out as an internal, mystical religion and was quickly distorted into an authoritarian, brutal one. If you've ever wondered how it happened, this book is extremely helpful. The earliest Christian writings are not the Gospels but the actual writings of Paul. At one point he says, "The mystery revealed -- Christ within you!" They purged most similar messages, but this one remains. Christianity was not originally about an external, vengeful, judging God, but about a personal journey towards acknowledging our oneness with each other and the universe. Such messages are so appealing to so many that they almost always get corrupted quickly by those seeking power.

One example of the distortions that took place, for example, is in the meaning of heaven and hell. In Gonstic Christanity, heaven is here and now, on this earth, but only if you "die" to the trappings of the ego and the physical world. If you give yourself over to the oneness with everything around you, then you are inseperable from existence and in heaven. If you remain isolated, thinking that your ego is who you really are, then you are staggeringly alone in a painful, awful place, with other combative creatures all around you, and this world is hell. That meaning, of course, ties directly to many other spiritual traditions.

In any case, I would recommend the book to anyone interested in how a world in which religion and science were united, that of Greece and Rome, was turned into to a world in which they are opposed. It explains a lot, whether you have historical or spiritual interest.

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» Hey, hay! Posted by: Sojourner
» It's not a fish Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The Jesus Mysteries Posted by: jroth420
» RE: The Jesus Mysteries Posted by: bert69
» RE: The Jesus Mysteries Posted by: bornxeyed
Lovely discussion, so much less divisive than usual when religion is at issue
Posted by: redfrog on May 15, 2007 8:07 AM   
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Sometimes I miss them, Santa and God. The wonderful simplicity of being both loved and held accountable by a Know-All and, upon being "good", being assured of getting the goodies. Santa was the easier touch, less demanding, more forgiving. Tooth Fairy never really made it into my pantheon, maybe it was the finiteness of teeth.

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» How about the easter bunny? Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: How about the easter bunny? Posted by: EasterBunny
Pure crap.
Posted by: heid on May 15, 2007 8:17 AM   
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Why, oh why, does AlterNet persist in publishing this sort of crap?

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» RE: Pure crap. Posted by: mirimac
why get out of bed in the morning
Posted by: bookie on May 15, 2007 8:26 AM   
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two bouncing golden retrievers, two big golden clowns tumbling joyously through life

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» My cats, Beuky and Inez. Posted by: Torgo
JESUS SAVES
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 15, 2007 8:28 AM   
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Money Shopping at The Home Depot!

- Graffiti (in two handwritings) seen recently in a Home Depot men's room.

Lots of carpenter supplies! And since HD opens at 6 a.m., maybe that's what gets Jesus and the atheists out of bed in the morning.

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Lotus eaters
Posted by: factbased on May 15, 2007 8:33 AM   
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It's a classic question, going back at least to Homer's lotus eaters from the Odyssey: whether to remain in a happy delusion or face reality. Speaking from experience, reality's not half bad, so I don't understand the fear. There are lots of things to get out of (or stay in) bed for!

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atheist?
Posted by: parsons on May 15, 2007 8:35 AM   
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In the comments already posted that say something about atheism, I agree with most of what's said, but there's one small detail I didn't see. One of the 'atheist writers' (I believe it's Sam Harris) has written (and I'm paraphrasing here) that we don't need a label for someone who doesn't believe in God any more than we need one for people who don't believe in astrology or alchemy. The term 'atheist' is a classic Lakoff frame, and uncritical acceptance and usage of the term can't help but warp subsequent thinking.

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» RE: atheist? Posted by: chuckrightmire
» RE: atheist? Posted by: David Baker
We The Living (Do You Believe in Life?)
Posted by: Torgo on May 15, 2007 8:41 AM   
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"Do you believe in God, Andrei? No. Neither do I. But that's a favorite question of mine. An upside-down question, you know. What do you mean? Well, if I asked people whether they believed in life, they'd never understand what I meant. It's a bad question. It can mean so much that it really means nothing. So I ask them if they believe in God. And if they say they do -- then, I know they don't believe in life. Why? Because, you see, God -- whatever anyone chooses to call God -- is one's highest conception of the highest possible. And whoever places his highest conception above his own possibility thinks very little of himself and his life. It's a rare gift, you know, to feel reverence for your own life and to want the best, the greatest, the highest possible, here, now, for your very own."
Source: We The Living Part One Chapter 9

For excellent quotes and aphorisms from an atheist Russian-American writer (whose absence from the above article is evidence of the author's cluelessness), click here.

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» How old are you - 19? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Just don't tell us about Mafia virtues again Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
A matter of removable perspective
Posted by: dbatterman on May 15, 2007 8:50 AM   
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I think the reason why the author and so many like him feel that being an athiest is necessarily empty or devoid of purpose is because they have not removed the perspective of belief from their cognition. The whole comparison of "I am the greatest composer since Beethoven" and "My existence has meaning." is completely bogus. He is comparing a teneable, physical thing, namely musical composition, to a completely subjective semantic device that has no real defineable parameters.
Personally, the fact that we have no overarching ruler in the sky, to me makes humanity that much more noble for keeping ourselves from self-annihilation, (so far...)

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Beating a dead fish?
Posted by: bsouthj on May 15, 2007 8:52 AM   
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If I don't believe in YOUR imaginary friend in the sky, I am required to come up with an alternative?

Are you SERIOUS? Who made that rule? Hmmmmm?

It's a wonder we can think at all!

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Can't we all just get along
Posted by: chaoslegs on May 15, 2007 8:58 AM   
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Yeah, I am atheist, but not of the militant sort. Believers of any type of religion are interesting to me. I had great (and respectful) discussions on faith with my friend who was in the Lutheran seminary.

No as long as those of faith, or believers, would try not to force it down my neck, or disparage me for lacking a religious background, I won't attack you. But when you hear folks saying religion is the only way to give your morals, or that I am going to burn in hell. Then be prepared to battle in ideas, and I will be vicious.

Ironically my middle name is Christian, which is a nice disarming tactic to holier than thou Christians. I point out that my driver's license says I am Christian, does theirs?

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I am a mootist
Posted by: tedrowe on May 15, 2007 8:59 AM   
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I am neither a theist nor an a-theist. That's a typical fundamentalist all-encompassing polarity. There's no name for someone who doesn't believe in Santa Claus or ghosts, so why should there be one for people who don't believe in god? The question of whether god exists or not is irrelevant to me personally, so, if I am anything, I am a mootist.

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Morning Wood
Posted by: apeshow on May 15, 2007 9:00 AM   
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#1 reason to wake up.

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» RE: Morning Wood Posted by: Torgo
Austin Avery
Posted by: Bizby on May 15, 2007 9:11 AM   
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Here is what you said in response to Dawkins' statement that Catholics make things up:

"This is not entirely fair. The Catholic Church does not just make such things up but has thought long and hard about angelic orders and other matters of equal importance."

So what. They still just make it up out of whole cloth. If I say there are dragons, or, on the other hand, if I think long and hard and then say there are dragons with bat-like wings, and silver scales, and purple dagger-like toes, etc., I still just made it up.

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» Catholics worship statues! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» As magical as status? Posted by: Sojourner
I suspect the same thing that "makes" any of us get out of bed...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 15, 2007 9:14 AM   
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...people need to eat, and with hand-outs, you get what you pay for.

Therefore, most individual get up, go to work, get the bills paid, put some food on their family (even if it is a family of one), then find some time for personal fulfillment and pleasure.

Why was an expose on "how 'com 'fer afeists rise 'n' shine" necessary?

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What Makes a Believer Get out of Bed in the Morning?
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on May 15, 2007 9:18 AM   
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One of the traditional conundrums of the faithful is the question of free will. If there is an all knowing God that is able to control everything then what difference can a man make?

Starting with the assumption that there is an all-knowing God who is able to control everything, religious philosophers have been able to twist logic to explain how man can still have free will that is in someway meaningful. Unfortunately, as a non-believer I just have never been able to follow this reasoning. I just cannot find a way for it to make any sense to me.

So, I have to ask. If I believed in an all knowing God that is able to control everything then why would I get out of bed in the morning? If anything needs doing, I would have to think, God will surely take care of it. What difference could it possibly make whether I get out of bed?

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How many atheists does it take to REPLACE a lightbulb?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 15, 2007 9:28 AM   
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None!

There was no lightbulb in the first place!

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What to replace it with?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on May 15, 2007 9:32 AM   
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How about government.. after all.. its doing the same job God was used for in the past.... keeping people in their place, silencing dissent, and keeping control in the hands of the elite.

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Replace gods with what?
Posted by: david_peace2002 on May 15, 2007 9:42 AM   
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Replacing religion with science is a given. But why does a god have to be replaced with anything? Just throw the idea out with the rest of the trash.

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why does religion persist?
Posted by: EasterBunny on May 15, 2007 9:48 AM   
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this article was mostly stupid, but it does raise one question that I've thought a lot about without coming up with a satisfying answer. why does religion persist? dawkins doesn't have a good answer to this question, nor do the other atheists i've read. which of the ideas below seem to be the most likely to explain the persistence of obviously ridiculous belief sytems?

1. Religion persists because it is useful for the powerful. They use it to manipulate the weak and the dumb.
2. Religion persists because it fulfills some psychological needs of its believers. it helps them deal with the fear of death or manage the uncertainty of life with its platitudes and easy answers. it also gives them a sense of superiority over others.
3. Religion confers social advantages, by becoming a member of the "in-group", believers get access to social networks, resources, protection, etc.
4. It's just inertia, traditions always die slowly even when they no longer serve any useful function whatsoever.
5. ?? any ideas??

my opinion is that it's mostly 1 and 3, with a little of 4 thrown in. the psychological advantages are overrated. in societies where 1 and 3 are reduced (former soviet union, china, northern europe) people seem to become a lot more secular pretty quickly.

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» RE: why does religion persist? Posted by: MartianBachelor
Bizby27
Posted by: Bizby on May 15, 2007 9:50 AM   
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And along these lines, may I recommend this:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/13/open-thread-471/

Have fun!

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so sick...so tired
Posted by: hellofriends on May 15, 2007 9:56 AM   
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everything in this article has been in other articles in alternet throughout the past couple of months and i wish this website would stop allowing these authors to advertise their books with these snarky, pointless postings.

leaving aside dogma, religious laws and histories, it's completely un-believable and irrational to think that we can replace our tiny little cortexes with the swirling, stormy limbic oceans of our deeper selves.

let's assume that it were possible to "replace" one part of yourself for another, what you would be doing is struggling through life with the delusion that your chittering little human ego consciousness (usually vain and usually thinking it is great or it is bad and most of the time always right amidst the flames of the blatant stupidity of "other people") in spite of the the infinity of the body's ancient boundless cellular knowledge, the universe, and the whole fucking enormous omission lacking in most of these postings: WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO KNOW OR UNKNOW? ever see an insect flying again and again into a window? that's us. we're animals. maybe we're holy, maybe we're not. reason is essential to get through life, but our holistic--and perhaps our spiritual--existence is essential to fully live it.

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Ditto
Posted by: texshelters on May 15, 2007 10:01 AM   
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I usually don't do this but...

You athesists are so much more on point and brilliant than I could be that I just want to recommend Christopher Hitchens new book, "god is Not Great"

Ciao,
Joe Tex

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I'm an Atheist and I have a very full life
Posted by: chabuka on May 15, 2007 10:23 AM   
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I don't need a God to get me out of bed in the morning...life gets me going...I work, I clean my house, I have my children, my grandchildren, my husband, brothers and sisters, a dog, a yard, a garden..keeps me pretty busy..I believe in the circle of life..I don't need no Jesus to lean on, giving me a purpose to my life..I know what my purpose in life is....living!

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JERRY FALWELL IS DEAD!!!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 15, 2007 10:47 AM   
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"they found him unresponsive"

How true.

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» RE: JERRY FALWELL IS DEAD!!! Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: JERRY FALWELL IS DEAD!!! Posted by: hellofriends
» Maybe he's with ol' Strom Thurmond Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: JERRY FALWELL IS DEAD!!! Posted by: mirimac
Concrete
Posted by: Concrete on May 15, 2007 11:03 AM   
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I just heard that Jerry Falwell has died.
God is saying He is sorry about what He did to New Orleans.

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» RE: Concrete Posted by: jroth420
Atheist original use meant Christian
Posted by: DCostello2 on May 15, 2007 11:24 AM   
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Did you know that the original use of the word Atheist was in reference to Christians? The term was a put down used to refer to early Christians because of their belief in a 'single' god, mono or a-theism.

I don't know about getting rid of religion all together. Voltaire had it correct when he said, "If god didn't exist, man would have invented him". But, getting rid of monotheism and the Judeo/Christian/Muslim Churches could only benefit mankind.

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What Makes an Atheist Get out of Bed in the Morning?
Posted by: Effewe on May 15, 2007 11:41 AM   
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Heartwarming stories like this one:

Good Riddance

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» One down... Posted by: MartianBachelor
What about Buddhism?
Posted by: sfdenizen on May 15, 2007 11:42 AM   
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I grew up Muslim but have given up Islam in favor of Buddhism "light". I no longer believe in a childish anthropomorphic God figure or its attendant scriptural nd traditional dogma. I considered myself atheist for a long time, but found that it didn't give me any purpose in life. It was a reactive stance rather than an active one.

The author asks: Why bother getting up in the morning? Only to eat and survive? Is it honest to just live an animal, seeking food and pleasure, when our big brains allow us to do so much more, to imagine and create and love?

For me, a simple Buddhism, without all its cultural baggage, has allowed me to have purpose. In its essence, it is experimental and empirical, so through the practices of meditation and lovingkindess, I am better able to navigate the world with happiness and mindfulness.

I look to science, history, and my own experience to answer the questions about how the world and myself work. But I also acknowledge that my limited human capacities and perceptions, my reason and senses and intuition, may only allow me know a tiny fraction of the universe's reality.

Ultimately, we need to be humble about anything we can proclaim as 'Truth', and like a good scientist, only talk in probabilities. On a daily basis, our praxis is what counts, not our belief. Live with kindness, compassion, joy, equanimity, creativity, fairness, and a good sense of humor, and chances are life will be worth living :)

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» RE: suported with Tai Chi Posted by: Ripcord
Try Buddhism
Posted by: bopob on May 15, 2007 11:47 AM   
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I take the author's question to be about the spiritual urge. If we can't believe in a monotheistic god, what practice can we follow to exercise our inherent desire to experience life and the universe in a more wondrous, joyful and illuminating way? It's a fair question, but so far all the responses have been in terms of the theism/atheism duality characteristic of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Buddhism is one of he world's great religions, and it fairly can be characterized as "atheistic," though it pointedly avoids discussion of that subject. Its concern is self-knowledge and the practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness in order to reduce suffering in the world. Those who are looking for something to "replace" theism as the basis for a spiritual practice might want to check it out.

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» RE: Try Buddhism Posted by: hellofriends
Hey guys, go for it!
Posted by: Sojourner on May 15, 2007 12:03 PM   
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I definitely lean in Xynyx's direction. (Sorry, solrev. I no longer have a workable notion of immortality.) I come originally from a theological education but am now working on my masters thesis in philosophy. What excites me is that we now have philosophers willing to loosen the girdles just a bit.

So X's insistence about not claiming to go beyond space and time (except via Kant's noumenal which is never capable of proof) has firm grounds in Western philosophy--until now.

It's not so much that space and time (particularly since Einstein, quantum theory, etc.) can be avoided, but when one begins to think from the other end of the analytic-holistic dialogue space and time are open to reinterpretation. The "unanticipated consequences" of science hit us with the need for that on a daily basis.

As a consequence, former analytic-only philosophers like P.F. Strawson, Stanley Cavell, McDowell, Rorty, and others are talking to Continental philosophers now. It's one of the most exciting times in philosophy.

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Faith Statement
Posted by: wunderkim on May 15, 2007 12:05 PM   
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I assert that "hard" atheists do, in fact, make a "faith statement" when they choose the label "atheist." Agnosticism is the most intellectually honest position on religion/theism. Atheism is a faith statement that asserts a position without proof. (Yes, I know, you can't prove a negative.) Atheist arguments are, largely, criticisms of religion and comparisons of science and mythology. Atheists can't answer the cosmological conundrums any better than religionists.

I will confidently assert my faith statement and say that I am an atheist. I may even get "evangelical" about it, like Dawkins, and try to convince you, too.

B.A. Religious Studies, 2006

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» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: wunderkim
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: Swithun Mason
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: wunderkim
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: wunderkim
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Faith Statement Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
Poor Assumption
Posted by: wunderkim on May 15, 2007 12:27 PM   
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The author of this article makes a damned poor assumption that the world "needs" a faith system.

It is arguable that humans need community, and through community we take identity. But it is absurd to suggest that religion is the best, or even a good provider of that. Even in hyper-religious America, people belong to all kinds of communities outside of their religion. Your occupation, your bowling league, your book club, your various issues and advocacy groups, your race/age/gender/sexuality/regional groups... all are communities for the individual, reflecting some part of your identity and values.

It also absurd to suggest that atheism "owes" us an alternative religion to replace the religion it is denying. Atheism is improperly named; it isn't an "-ism" at all. It isn't a systematic belief system. It is a position on a single religious question. Nothing more.

If you need a formalized moral system to replace your religious faith, try ethical humanism. It, too, has been around for thousands of years, informed by philosophers through the ages. But it requires no faith. We already live by a moral code that is, at most, only partially defined in religious terms. We're already living divided secular/religious lives. It isn't hard to switch to fully secular.

Finally, I agree with previous commenters that religion is a tool of social control that serves to divide and distract the populace with invented differences and imaginary moral conflicts. Why would we want to replace religion? Bring on a different kind of social control tool? That is no improvement.

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what a load of crap.
Posted by: digitalfrenzy on May 15, 2007 12:33 PM   
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god, religion and all the other things in life that humans use to fill the void that their own self doubt leaves them are silly and infantile. the fact that the precious book all you gullible christians follows so rabidly was rewritten for a king that couldnt get his head around the language barrier. believing that book is as stupid as believing a version of the ku klux klan dogma written by a black or a jew.
alcohol and all the other vices are taxed, why not the biggest one of them all? i live my life in a godless reality, and to be honest, i am very happy and fulfilled. religion is a way to control the weak. common decency should provide you with a quality life without all the ludicrous terms and conditions of religion and god.

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The Image of God?
Posted by: cbishopp on May 15, 2007 12:39 PM   
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What is it called when you believe in a higher power that is not in the image of human beings?
What if we are just a small piece of a greater system of which we have no understanding and all this egotistical religious banter is just a way for confused, afraid people to define themselves both phychologically and sociologically and give themselves purpose.
Furthermore, what if other people having no connection to god or respect for anyone chose to use this common fear for social control.
I am afraid of people who will not get out of bed in the morning unless God tells them so.

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Pantheism
Posted by: wunderkim on May 15, 2007 12:48 PM   
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The word to describe that is "pantheism." It is the belief that "god" is everything, that the universe is itself one big divine system, including yourself.

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Lumping all Athiests together.
Posted by: EinMD on May 15, 2007 12:57 PM   
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Makes about as much sense as lumping all Christians together.

We're all just as different as you are. Dawkins doesn't speak for me, Ok? I don't know the guy any more than I know the President. He's some talking head with an agenda, as far as I am concerned. So before you start on the 'secular humanist' hordes trying to destroy you religious types, listen up for a second.

I don't believe in a deity or deities. However, I absolutely do not care if you believe in one or not. Your 'spirituality' is your own business - between you and your God ( assuming he exists) and I'd kindly ask all you religious types to return the same respect to me.

What I care about is the conservative, right wing dominionist types out there who want to suddenly turn this country into JesusLand. Suddenly there's 'In God We Trust' on the money. Then there's 'Under God' in the Pledge. Now we've got the Faith Based Initiatives giving *MY* tax dollars out to exclusively Christian religious organizations so they can use it to sucker more followers into their little cults. We've got all the folks who have some delusion that this nation was Christian to start with and somehow the enemy ( ie: people like me ) had the power to take it away. We've got people who have never and will never meet me being able to decide for me who I can love, who I can have sex with and whether or not I'm allowed to have and raise children. We've got Federal Judges thinking they have some right to put two ton monuments to the Ten Commandments in a federal courtroom ( Because apparently the Ten Commandments instantly stop crime ). We've got zealots telling me that I have to die of cancer or parkinsons or whatever because some clump of damned cells has more worth than I do. Then other zealots claiming that inoculating your daughter against cervical cancer is somehow a 'sin leading to promiscuity'.

Then we've got all the lovely little 'I don't believe in Evolution' types who want their religious dogma taught to MY kid in a school paid for by MY tax money, and we've got a Supreme Court Justice (Scalia) who thinks that unless you're part of a monotheistic religion you have no worth an an American and can be 'disregarded' and therefore discriminated against (And for you Christians, he's lumping the Muslims in with YOU are people who are OK by him ). Then of course ( last but not least ) we have a Federal government run by a religious twit who manipulated the religious, racial and class based hatred and feelings of utter superiority of American Christians towards Muslims and used that as a way to start a war for profit.

Yes... I have a serious problem with that. All of it. I was born here. My grandfather fought in WWII. If I am called up to serve my country, I will. I pay my taxes. I am a loyal and law abiding citizen and I don't hurt people who don't hurt me first. The Constitution says that your rights do not trump mine. If you decide that I'm no longer worth the protections that are guaranteed me regardless of my believing in a deity or not, then this is not a democracy, neither of us are citizens, there IS no law and I'll fight you until my dying breath....

and if somebody was doing the same thing to you, you know what? I'd fight them until my dying breath. Why? Because we're Americans, that's why. It's time to put all this petty divisive BS behind us and work together to build a better tomorrow.

You want to celebrate your religion? Go for it. It's your right. But keep it out of my house, out of my school, out of my life, and out of my pocket.

Oh, and before you start going about trying to convert or convince me of your righteousness with Biblical rhetoric, better have tried and if some day I do convert back to Christianity it won't be because of some guy quoting scripture in a blog.

Peace!

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» nice rant Posted by: MartianBachelor
no 'evidence' for god is not evidence of god's nonexistence
Posted by: hellofriends on May 15, 2007 1:18 PM   
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hear me out.

for the sake of simplicity, let's say there are two different realms of experience and ways of knowing.

1.) on the one hand, there's a kind of ground, a kind of normal, objective plain of reality where we all can stand on as independent bodies and point to something external to us and say, "ok, that exists, do we all agree, ok yes." historically (at least among most philosophers) the search for this kind of "proof" of the existence of immortality and God ended with Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. (let's leave aside for a moment the fact that this ground, hypothesized by objectivity-seeking scientists and citizens, doesn't really exist.)

2.) on the other hand, there is a subjective epistemology that sees but cannot see itself. it is more about being than about the observation of being. because it is fundamentally about immediate (and thus, some would say, eternal) direct experience, we are not capable of describing it in language, because language would be an afterthought of the affair, which defeats the whole concept of communion with the present.

what i'm trying to say here is that using system #1 to prove the existence of system #2 is a pointless endeavor. the way of knowing/experiencing "god" or "cosmic consciousness" or "satori" isn't "rational" in the western, cartesian, newtonian, darwinian tradition. so if you're observing things through the looking-glass of the aforementioned paradigm, you're not going to see god, and you're most likely going to think that the people who do see god are Delusional or somehow more stupid than you are. (let's leave aside here the fact that the newtonian and cartesian logically schemas are falling apart and will soon be considered as out-dated as their predecessors.)

system #1 and system #2 CAN coexist and (as i'm doing here) one can use rationality to observe the mechanism of system #2. but system #1 cannot "replace" system #2. as long as people figure out how to use the gift of being human to trigger a system 2 experience, there will always be "god," no matter how little system 1-type evidence there is. if you're claiming atheism you're claiming the veracity and validity of system 1 while denying the validity of system 2. fine.

personally i think religious dogma is ridiculous. and i agree with most of you about the reality of negative political and social repercussions that come from religion. it's also possible that system 2 experience is just a flux of certain chemicals in our brains, as it occurs during periods of fasting, sleep deprivation, left temporal lobe epilepsy, psychedelic experiences, hypnagogic hallucinations, near death experiences, chanting, praying etc... then again, the same could be said of the rest of our thoughts, including system 1 type stuff: we are chemical beings, and as Alan Watts once said, science may be able to explain the mechanism, but never the meaning.

continued below...

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evidence of god thing
Posted by: hellofriends on May 15, 2007 1:18 PM   
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think about thought for a moment. how vibrant, how exhilarating to think you've discovered the Truth, the real-deal theory, only to have it crumble apart the next day. think about the old men (or the young men) who are so insistent on the supremacy of their rational convictions that no amount of reason can enter into their highly-fortified logos-centric cosmogony. many atheists claim that they are brave because they don't rely on the supernatural or a god to get them through their metaphysical life hurdles. perhaps. but to me, running to your logical convictions, clinging to them, gathering evidence and more evidence (selectively, of course) to try and prove your worldview, bashing others who disagree with you (usually a sign of a lack of serenity with your own order of things,) and generally asserting that your neo-cortex is the Ultimate ontological tool...all of this seems, as they say in zen, the work of a scared monkey mind. Just as someone who unquestioningly ac cepts the belief that there is a benevolent god controlling everything and everything is always alright, a person who exists entirely inside their logical brainhouse is hiding from something. there is chaos outside of logic, and it is marvelous and terrifying, and i wish for the sake of every Man/Woman of Reason here that they try, not to blindly jump into Belief for no Reason, but to, at the impetus of reason, if nothing else, suspend their disbelief and see if anything unbelievable happens.

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» RE: evidence of god thing Posted by: civilized european
» RE: evidence of god thing Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: evidence of god thing Posted by: civilized european
» RE: evidence of god thing Posted by: hellofriends
Atheism vs. Naturalism
Posted by: cdriscol on May 15, 2007 1:31 PM   
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Finding a single word that describes "atheists'" positive philosophies is difficult because there are a great number of philosophies that are atheist. For example, Buddhism is atheist, however, most "Atheists" I know don't want to be called Buddhist because while Buddhism is atheist, it is also supernaturalist. All consistent Marxist Communists are atheist, but there are also great numbers of people who do not want to be called communists.

I call myself a Naturalist as that philosophy captures my belief in science, technology and the sole reality of nature, as opposed to the imaginary supernatural, superphysical or spiritual.

I have no problem with anybody who wants to make the claim that I have a belief, I obviously do; or that I have a faith, I obviously must take such a leap when I make the claim that the essence of all reality is physical (i.e., matter-energy, space-time, the four known forces). On the metaphysical philosophical level, I make a faith claim, although even there I have more solid scientific evidence to back up my claim than religionists do. So far, although we do not have anything like incontrovertible proof that all reality is physical and natural, we do how mountains of evidence piling up that points in that direction and there is still ZERO evidence for any supernatural, spiritual realm.

Finally, on the claim that "Atheism" is a religion: If people want to call Atheism or Naturalism a religion, it's no skin of my back; however, I would point out that every reasonable dictionary definition of the word "religion" notes that it must include a supernatural element, like Buddhism does, even though it is a religion with no God.

Although the author of the makes numerous fundamental errors in logic and his backhanded complements against Dawkins are annoying, I have to agree with the thought that it is not a good idea to allow your opposition to define you with a negative label that you are publicly stuck with. (That is what he is getting at when he asks what Atheists will replace religion with, the philosophical alternative, not an alternative to Santa Claus but an alternative set of ideas. As thinking beings we cannot be without a philosophy, even if it is one that is totally unconscious and thoroughly un-thought-out and haphazard. We will have a philosophy whether we like it or not and our actions will be guided by it, so better that it is one that you pick for yourself, consciously.)

The religionists have cleverly plastered us with this label about what we don’t believe and most of us have let it go on for far too long. Every “Atheist” I know has some kind of positive naturalist belief system, which is what we need to start emphasizing. When we learn to publicize what we believe more than what we don’t believe, we will start succeeding in winning people over.

In countries where the religionists make up much smaller percentages of the population than in the United States of America, like the European Union, Eastern Europe, Russia and the other countries of Confederation of Independent States, China, Japan, Australia and New Zealand, communist, socialist and social-democratic philosophies have been much more prevalent than in this country, philosophies that find their roots in Marxism and shared Marx’s naturalist philosophical beliefs. That tradition is what has helped those countries become Naturalist and secular, in other words, a positive belief system. The befuddled religionists have always called Marxists “Atheists,” but the Marxists were smart enough to demand the right to define themselves in public, not to let the religionists do it for them. I am not myself a Marxist, but I do believe in learning from other Atheist philosophies when they find something that works, and defining yourself in a positive way works a lot better than letting your opposition define you in a negative way.

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Not This Article Again...
Posted by: DontSweatTheTechNick on May 15, 2007 1:41 PM   
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First I had to read this trash in The Nation, now it's reprinted on Alternet. First off, the author's metaphor of the French Revolution is ridiculously incongruent with the argument of theism v. atheism. If you are going to run a society, you need some form of government or organization. Even the anarchist texts that I've read call for a form of organization, usually in the form of direct democracy, which while there is no centralized apparatus is still a form of organization. The point is, the French revolutionists needed a replacement government because society needs some form of organization to perform important functions for its people - some form of organization is necessary whether it be a totalitarian state, a direct democracy, or something in between.

The notion that some form of "belief" (thinking something is true despite lack of evidence, or in some instances like creationsim, thinking something is true despite much evidence to the contrary) needs a replacement is ridiculous. There are plenty of examples from human history of atheists who led fulfilling and extraordinary lives; Bertrand Russell comes to mind. Finally, for people who feel the need for something to replace religion in a secular world, has the author never heard of secular humanism? With the recent passing of the great secular humanist Kurt Vonnegut, I would've thought the author would've heard it mentioned once or twice. Check out the American Humanist Association, and see the wonderful work being done by secular people to advance human rights and help those in need (also it should be noted that they do charity without expectation of some reward in the hereafter, which I think is more impressive than the charity work of a theist). Humanist groups across the U.S. are combatting suffering on earth and doing it without the dogmatic, unprovable nonsense offered by religious texts.

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» RE: Not This Article Again... Posted by: parmenicleitus
Replacing God
Posted by: Joycelyn on May 15, 2007 2:01 PM   
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It never occurred to me that I needed to replace God when I stopped believing in him, any more than I needed to replace the Tooth Fairy. Unless in terms of "If there isn't a Tooth Fairy, how do you explain all those quarters?" and then, in place of my parents I can answer, "Nature did it and priests claimed the credit."

I agree that many of the critics of religion do not understand the history and so don't understand that monotheism is a step forward from polytheism in many ways.

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Richard Dawkins talk
Posted by: fanny666 on May 15, 2007 2:44 PM   
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Richard Dawkins

I have not yet listened to it, so don't blame me if it sucks.

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DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD....
Posted by: digitalfrenzy on May 15, 2007 3:37 PM   
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Jerry Falwell, I sincerely hope you are being anally intruded in the hell that you believed in. One down, so, so, so many more to go. Humanity will be one car closer to the light now that that hatemonger bigot piece of shit is dead.

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» RE: DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD.... Posted by: hellofriends
What gets me out of bed in the morning? I have to Pee!
Posted by: bladerunner on May 15, 2007 3:38 PM   
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Jeez, when I found out there was no Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, or tooth fairy. My world didn't fall apart. And since I've become an atheist , my world has been even better!

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Who says the deity "should" be replaced?
Posted by: scurvybro on May 15, 2007 3:43 PM   
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I didn't bother to read this piece because its subhead has such a wacked-out premise:

"In their rush to throw out God, atheist writers appear to have given little thought to what should replace the deity."

Why should we accept it as a given that if there is no deity, there must be a replacement? That line of questioning presumes there are prescribed parameters for the possible answers, meaning that it's not an honest question.

If a segment of the population finds that their lives would have a hopeless void if there was no deity, well, that's a shame, I suppose. But in no way does it place an obligation on atheists to propose a "replacement" as a way of justifying their views.

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Yeah, how DO people survive without heroin?
Posted by: just john on May 15, 2007 4:09 PM   
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How do non-junkies fill the obvious void that not having a heroin habit leaves?

Think about THAT before you consider getting straight!

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wonderblob
Posted by: wonderblob on May 15, 2007 5:55 PM   
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I find Deism in and of itself is every reason to get out of bed in the morning.
http://www.deism.com/

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Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins just make stuff up
Posted by: Jasonix on May 15, 2007 6:06 PM   
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Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are only impressive to those who are already sympathetic to their view points, and who take pleasure in snotty, pseudo-intellectual put-downs of the religious. Harris, who bills himself as a "neuro-scientist" on his book jackets, does nothing but make assertions about religion and religious people that aren't backed up with any science or psychological research whatsoever. Dawkins is a bit better, but most of his stuff is sheer speculation, and even his fellow scientists tend to think of Dawkins as a "Darwinian fundamentalist." Perhaps more disturbingly, both Sam Harris and atheist writer Christopher Hitchins "logically" reach the same conclusion as Pentecostal/fundamentalist doomsday preachers like John Hagee - that we should launch a pre-emptive war against Muslim states because we abhor their religion. If the guiding lights of the "bright" atheist movement have the same genocidal ambitions as rabid televangelists, then what good are they?

I think that religion is very dangerous, and certainly the "visions" of glossaliacs shouldn't be used as the basis of public policy. But Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, and the like just spew bombast that doesn't really enhance our understanding of anything.

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TRC
Posted by: TRC on May 15, 2007 6:18 PM   
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Only a typically lost Christian would ask such a question. Because Mr Lazare's effort to fill his inner loneliness with Jesus falls short, in his deep frustration he must demonize and criticize those who successfully live without his addiction.
Come out of the Cave Mr Lazare. Your eyes will used to the sunlight.

TRC

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Nonsense
Posted by: RobbieUMD on May 15, 2007 6:27 PM   
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I'm not even going to read this article. If anyone really thinks that atheists don't come up with a reason to go on, read existentialist philosophers like Nietzche or Camus. Or better yet, read "The Conquest of Happiness" by Bertrand Russell, the famed atheist British philosopher.

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Why I get out of bed in the morning
Posted by: willymack on May 15, 2007 9:48 PM   
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I'm an atheist and haver NEVER believed in deities, devils, demons, or angles, even when I was barely old enough to comprehend the concepts. What got me out of bed then, as now is that I usually have to pee or I've been lying abed so long that it's beginning to become uncomfortable. It's fine with me if believers want to look down their noses at me or judge me unfairly because they're almost always pathetic fools, devoid of skepticism, analytical thought, or the ability to think on their own without support from others-the more the better. Their tiny, ridgid minds are made up, and NO amount of factual information will disuade them from their delusional adherence to cheap hokum. I sleep well and get up in the morning liking the guy I see in the mirror.

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The "very unlikely existence" of a deity
Posted by: casual on May 16, 2007 12:21 AM   
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I have yet to actually see a scientific basis for the "very, very unlikely" existence of "god" or any such omniscient, omnipotent being. It would be much obliged if someone would present me with the basic outline of this belief that most of you seem to take for granted. I am fully open to the possibility that I should have come across something like this before. Thanks.

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» Well, for starters... Posted by: doctorsquared
richard feynman
Posted by: bert69 on May 16, 2007 12:23 AM   
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Surpised I can find no mention of Richard Feynman. See You Tube Feynman on "Uncetainty"

On a lower plane the article's hint about religion stimulating human curiosity is certainly true. I had problems while still in short pants with man being made in the image of god -at the age when nipples and testicles were a major fascination. Haven't really resolved that one yet.

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I dont need a deity in my life...
Posted by: ShoShenQ on May 16, 2007 4:09 AM   
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...with a pedophile, fanatic, or compulsive liar as the middleman. Or even without. Thank you so very much.

End of story.

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The Heckling of a Capricious God
Posted by: mickleby on May 16, 2007 9:27 AM   
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Atheism is not ideology. It is the rejection of the need for ideology. Just as a baby can locate and suckle a nipple without any ideology of hunger or food or mother or self, so can we leave the comfort of bed without the heckling of a capricious god or the ransom of fabulous bribes.

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How telling
Posted by: kenhymes on May 16, 2007 9:56 AM   
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It's funny/sad that the posters accuse religious people of hypersensitivity to attacks on their beliefs, and display such hypersensitivity in spades themselves. Lazare dares to criticize your favorite hero authors of the moment, and you go ballistic. So not typical of Christians I know, most of whom simply withdraw from confrontation, while others try to have a discussion. The unscientific sampling of atheists on Alternet suggests that there are problems with anger, and a lack of knowledge of the communities they attack. The news media distorts most street level realities, including that of the church. Christians are guilty of many things, and the right-wing of all faiths is doing great damage in the world. But peacemaking, which I believe is a progressive value, arises out of mutual respect and listening, asking questions, not having all the answers. Atheists would do well to recognize that over 90% of the human race doesn't agree with them, but instead believes that a mechanistic picture of the universe is inadequate to explain their experience. We may all be wrong, and you may be right. But your venom is not a compelling argument that any help for the species is to be found in your philosophy.

Peace, fellow humans.
Ken Hymes

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» RE: How telling Posted by: fork
» RE: How telling Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: How telling Posted by: poppop_schell
You know little of most American Christians
Posted by: kenhymes on May 16, 2007 10:04 AM   
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You know little of most American Christians

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» oops, sorry Posted by: kenhymes
Banana Pancakes
Posted by: peace&honesty on May 16, 2007 12:05 PM   
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The ¨divine¨ smell of banana pancakes got me out of bed this morning.

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» RE: Banana Pancakes Posted by: Aussie Kim
I am psycho...I believe in God
Posted by: pg on May 16, 2007 1:38 PM   
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Rom 1:18 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21

Where Dawkins chooses to see science a proof there is no God, I see science as proving the majesty of God's creation.

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» RE: I am psycho...I believe in God Posted by: poppop_schell
This article was lame
Posted by: neogaia on May 16, 2007 5:06 PM   
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I read this article and it bored me.

I am an atheist and a secular humanist and I lead a more fulfilling life than most people including believers and non-believers.

I get up in the morning thankful that I am alive and that I could experience consciousness and love and that there are other people to enjoy the world with. I think what we have to comfort us is each other. How boring would the world be if you were the only person? And how excited do you get when you get to meet up with people who you enjoy their company.

There is so much beauty, mystery, and possibility in the world, isn't that enough to enjoy the little time we have on this planet?

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Religion and god are easily replaced...
Posted by: Aussie Kim on May 16, 2007 10:47 PM   
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...with ethics and philosophy.

By this takes EDUCATION, THINKIN' and BOOK LEARNIN', which, of course, need money and effort.

Religion is easier because it takes no effort, often requires no thought at all and in many, many cases actually DEMANDS no education whatsoever.

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Religion and Politics
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on May 16, 2007 11:11 PM   
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I think that debates apropos of religion are cofused due to the fact that the political function of, what is called at any rate, religion is neglected. I think that the Gnostic Christians were right to regard faith as essentially a personal matter and I believe that main function of organized religion has been to provide a surrogate for what would otherwise be regarded as illegetimate power using theology to gain aquiesnce. The Chatholic Church, e.g., destroyed or suppressed (actually some texts were burried and discorvered in the 20th century--Cf. The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels) those Gnostic texts that opposed any kind of human authority concerning religion, hence implicity the authority of the Church.

Personally, I object to any kind of dictation or attempt to influence morality (unless it comes directly from God!). The function of religion in this country is as a component of ideology; i.e., a tool in controlling the population and one that should be opposed.

As far as meaning: I think that the existential/religious debate is absurd and meaningless. Events (in the sense the term is used in physics) are defined in meaning in connection with a specified object, as in classical drama. If maximizing profit (or power) is deemed a meaningful aim them we can evaluate what we are doing, in terms of meaning, based on how sucessful we are in the endeavor (I, of course disagree deeply that these are worthwhile aim).

I cannot concieve of any transcendental concept of purpose; that the 'purpose' of the nose is to support glasses, as was once suggested, seems to me clear up the debate; things may be said to have a purpose in connection with specific desire, but not independantly. This principal applies to everything. The concept of 'essence' is of the same nature; the classic solution has been to invoke God as a disquised way of giving a statement of desire, about how the universe ought to be, the appearance of being a Truth.

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WHAT WOULD ATHEISTS DO IF THEY REPRESENTED 90% OF THE PEOPLE?
Posted by: poppop_schell on May 17, 2007 12:33 PM   
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This is a serious question I have which I hope many will respond to? The reason I ask is because we have had two major countries where atheists were in control of government in my lifetime and one just after the American led, religioulsy based American revolution. In each case, millions of people were slaughtered in the name of rationalism. These are :

The Soviet Union
Communist China
French Revolution.

Was there ever a government led by atheists that brought about a major step forward for mankind?

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A SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT THAT WILL PROVE GOD EXISTS
Posted by: poppop_schell on May 17, 2007 12:46 PM   
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It seems to me as I read the posts that there are some who are so turned off to any possibility that there might be a God that I wanted to propose a scientific experiment that IF the independent variables are used in their proper mixture, the dependent variable will be that a person/seeker will receive a PERSONAL VISIT from a member of the Godhead.

By proper mixture, let me give an example. To get water, one MUST mix two parts of hydrogen to one part oxygen. If you try a different mixture, you won't get water. The same occurs with this experiment.

Let me clarify something. There is a difference between the possible existence of a personal God and the many false religions that profess they KNOW of Him. Many current atheists posting on AlterNet express strong disappointment with the religions they grew up with and experienced. I understand and appreciate that viewpoint. It is mostly a rational and correct reaction.

Some warnings!!!! THis is NOT an experiment that should be done out of mere curioisty. IF that is the motive, there is NO promise of the dependent variable occuring. Like gaining knowledge about anything, one must pay the price by effort and following exactly the scientific process. No short cuts!!!

Also, when the dependent variable occurs to you, please do NOT then deny that it occured as predicted and described/felt but accept the visit, learn more and then act upon it. OK?

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» Hint for karyse Posted by: fork
» RE: Hint for karyse Posted by: poppop_schell
» I shouldn't have wasted my time Posted by: Veronique
» RE: I shouldn't have wasted my time Posted by: poppop_schell
We do need something to replace religion
Posted by: Bjorn on May 17, 2007 9:41 PM   
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While I find Lazare’s article as dull as many other readers, I do agree that something else must replace religion. Many people have commented that, like for Santa and the Tooth Fairy, no longer believing in them does not mean you need to believe in something else. But that is of course not true. As for Santa and the Tooth Fairy, they are both replaced by your parents, for instance. As for God, he was supposed to be the creator of man, Earth, and everything else, but Naturalism have now pushed religion aside, and come up with much, much more reasonable explanations. I think everyone who comment that we do not need to replace religion with anything, really agree that science offers the answers to many of these questions, and thus really is the proper replacement for religion.

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ATHEISM IS AS STUPID AS RELIGION...
Posted by: Scientz on May 18, 2007 6:56 AM   
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Agnosticism is the only way to go, IMO.

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Name ONE religion where women are equal to men
Posted by: hearmeroar on May 19, 2007 3:07 AM   
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...and I'll be the most devout follower.

until then, i'm leaping out of bed and embracing my education, knowing women will find a way, regardless of religious institutions.

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WHERE DOES THAT DRIVE TO DO GOOD COME FROM FOR ATHEISTS?
Posted by: poppop_schell on May 19, 2007 10:45 AM   
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Most of us realize we have an innate conscience: at least I think that we know this and have given it that name. Let me share with you where that drive to do good to others and make your life meaningful comes from. YES, IT IS DISCOVERED BY YOUR SEARCHING PROCESS IF YOU ALLOW IT TO BE.

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne (God is a personal being), who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

JUST PONDER THE MEANING OF THIS IN RELATION TO SCIENCE AND OUR UNDERSTANDING OF LIFE. OK?

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Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...
Posted by: motamanx on May 19, 2007 6:46 PM   
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...this is the biblical phrase that captures my imagination. Translated, it means: "Pay your taxes."

The rest of the bible is subtext. Should the real Jesus show up to save the world--you'd still have to pay your rent.

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Pyrrhos
Posted by: Pyrrhos on May 19, 2007 6:53 PM   
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I see no reason to replace the concept of a deity at all. Falsity can only be replaced by another falsity, so why bother to replace anything. Reality is important, science is important, truth is important, reason is important. Why is it important to replace a lie with anything? Lies deserve to be remembered only as lies, laughed at and certainly not replaced.

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» RE: Pyrrhos Posted by: Bjorn
» RE: Pyrrhos Posted by: Pyrrhos
We live for the future...
Posted by: stancube on May 19, 2007 8:13 PM   
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"Save the Atheist - Save the World."

Eventually all religious people will give up, let go of the rope, and simply fall into the net of faith that they believe hangs below them. For many of them, at their cores, live life as a precursor to some sort of afterlife. This time around, this planet, these people and other animals are of no consequence because heaven is eternal. Zeus, er, Odin, er, God will make everything right in the next life if not this one.

If I were to name a successor to the God concept (or God Delusion as Dawkins so succinctly puts it), it would be life. This is the only reason I would even consider participating in the conception of a child, because the journey of life is so incredible! The journey and its inherent discoveries are just barely realized at this point in the Human Time Line.

The main motivations for keeping our species going as a whole have not been discovered yet, or at least have not been fully realized. When I think about the progress we've made, intellectually, in just the past 100 years, I can only be amazed by where we'll be 100 years from now, or 1000, if we don't give up on life nor give in to the idea that nothing here on Earth matters. Long live the atheists!

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Back To Lazare's Original Question
Posted by: thirdmg on May 19, 2007 8:17 PM   
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At the beginning of his article, Lazare asks what atheists plan to replace God with. It's an interesting and worthwhile question. Yet, if he has a suggestion as to what they should do, I'm not sure what it is.

At the end of his elaborate, and sometimes subtle, analysis, he states that "humanity creates meaning for itself by liberating itself so that it can fulfill itself." I've re-read that statement 20 times and re-read the paragraphs leading up to it. If that's his conclusion, I haven't the slightest idea what it means or how he got there. Maybe we should start from the top and ask the question again.

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The Almighty Buck and All It Can Buy
Posted by: anambrose on May 19, 2007 11:35 PM   
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As stated above that has been the True Religion in, of, and for America since our founding. As long as humans are taught as well as believe that we are incomplete; that the hole in the soul has to be filled with something from outside of us,our community we will be vulnerable to every used car sales man, ideologue, guru, savior, ad agency flack who claim to have the secret to fullfillment. The people who point us to our own internal resource as well as responsibility for the common good we crucify. It's easier to deal with them than deal with our own lack of worth. As long as there is a Buck to made off of the suckers which is all of us then we will continue to buy things we don't need to fullfill a desire that's manufactured and marketed not real needs like life, love, family and community. We don't need God or NoGod. We just need to pull our collective heads out of our asses.

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Daniel Lazare, where have you been? Languishing in bed?
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 19, 2007 11:39 PM   
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We atheists will, by the end of this century, extend human
life expectancy past 1000 years, colonize the moon, Mars
and near-earth asteroids, and possibly create a universe. If
that isn't enough, we may evolve ouselves into a truly
intelligent species. We may have colonized the whole solar
system by the end of the century. We will send probes to
several nearby star systems and identify living planets 200
light years away. We will create truly democratic
governments, using the internet to enable every citizen to
vote on every issue. Would that be enough to get up in the
morning for? Life is the meaning of life and no other
meaning is needed. There is no "spiritual" malaise.
Science fully replaces religion but science is not a religion.
Science is a simple faith in Scientific experiments and a
simple absolute lack of faith in everything else. If you
want to know the truth about morals and ethics, go to a
library and look up sociobiology or sciobio. Sociobiology
is a new branch of Science but there are already hundreds
of books on it. The origin of the Universe is the subject of
Cosmology which is part of astronomy which is part of the
science of physics. Science has taken over all of the
jurisdictions formerly reserved for religion and philosophy.
Philosophy and religion are obsolete.
If you were a sophomore undergrad student in Physics,
your homework might include figuring out when the
second coming of jesus would be required, assuming that
the bible was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when
would the bible be down to 50% true? The popular and
professors' answer in 1966 was the year 500. The true
answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in Budapest,
Hungary. As an adult, he came here and stayed. After 25
years, he visited his home town of Budapest. He was
unable to communicate with his high school classmates
because the Hungarian language had changed so much.
The correct answer is the second coming of christ was
required in less than 25 years. The first gospel was not
written down until 50 years after the alleged events and
then in Greek, not Aramaic. The people who told the story
were at about the same level of civilization as "wild
indians", I mean Native Americans before Columbus got
here. We have all played or seen played the game called
"Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-
tellers. By the 6th re-telling, the story has no resemblance
to the original. The gospel story had to be re-told at least 6
times before it was mis-translated the first time. There is
no truth anywhere in the bible.

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So easy to answer!
Posted by: ssearthgirl on May 20, 2007 6:44 AM   
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What to replace God with?

If you really need a replacement - How about LOVE? Love of your fellow man and woman, love of all creatures on this planet and the planet itself. Get out of bed every morning with your heart filled with love, compassion and respect for all things.

This should be a very easy switch for most believers to make as I have heard them say on many occasions that God is Love. Actually, I don't think it will be easy, as many, though not all, use their faith as a reason to hate, belittle or disparage others who do not share it. Imagine what the world would be like if this shift could happened!

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» RE: So easy to answer! Candleinheart Posted by: Candleinheart
Red Brown and Blue Party comment
Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on May 20, 2007 11:12 AM   
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Comment number 393 makes the most sense: God is Love. I resonate with that.

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Oh please
Posted by: David_Mulholland on May 21, 2007 3:53 AM   
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"What should replace God?". I don't believe in God because scientifically there is no such being. It's just fact. There is no God. I can't sit there and go "well I don't believe such a being exists but I'll pretend I do until such time as I am sure there won't be any unpleasant consequences to my disbelief" The moment I realised there was no God it was game over. but for the record it doesn't seem to affect my sleep much. And hey the upside of being an atheist has got to be scenes like this. Seriously though religion seems to be the last acceptable excuse for child abuse.

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» RE: Oh please Posted by: poppop_schell
Oh and while I am on the subject - morals
Posted by: David_Mulholland on May 21, 2007 3:58 AM   
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Dear religious commentors who seem to think atheists have no morals:

The idea that religiously-raised children have more "morals" than those raised non-religiously seems to be to be totally upside-down. If I have children I'll teach them to assess for themselves what is right and wrong based on how they would wish to be treated themselves. You meanwhile will be teaching your children that they should follow blindly a set of laws loosely interpreted from a very old book because if they don't horrible punishments will befall them and their loved ones. I would call my children "moral" and yours "frightened".

This is extracted from a debate I had with a muslim woman over on my blog a few months ago.

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Love IS The Answer
Posted by: Candleinheart on May 21, 2007 5:19 AM   
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I am reminded of all the sermons I listened to in my life. Cannot remember one or any changes that occurred because of one. Years ago I was married to a former Methodist Minister. We had endless discussions as to God, the whys and wherefores of so much human sufferring. Eventually, being quite a bit younger than he, I had this to say after a few years of heady discussion: If all people who read books on theology, spent endless hours reading as to the validity of Jesus's birth, the immaculate conception, who, why, where, when is God etc, who wrote endless papers, prepared endless sermons, endless hours sitting at desks to get degrees etc, just think of all those millions of hours spent on 'God' and still we have racisism, hatred, wars, imbalance of goods in the world, etc.. Now, think of all those millions of hours worshiping words, if only they were put into the following: Call a neighbor, call someone ill or living alone, serve in a homeless shelter, soup kitchen, mow an eldely woman's lawn, volunteer at a community organization, stop to talk to a child, be pleasant to a woman and by some miracle give her some praise, get back to holding doors for the elderly and let them on first on trains, buses, open eyes to the daily needs of people, and last but not least a smile to everyone! As ssearthgirl mentions, LOVE is said to permeate the Universe, that we are told God is Love. Mother Theresa stated before she died, "Of all the countries she visited, America was the most loveless." A great writer of theology, some monk living in a monestery, had written over six hundred volumes on 'God' theology, etc. Late in his life he was sitting at his desk in prayer when a light filled the room or came from him. He was lifted into a state of supreme bliss, Devine Love. It lasted all of a few minutes. He wrote that in that short time span he realized that all he had written was meaningless compared to the love he felt within that time.
My Mother often stated, "Words are cheap, that actions speak louder than words." Let our lives be a prayer, let our lives set examples, let the above suggestions be our prime movers, let Love be our guiding light. One day I observed an elderly man struggling to put groceries in his car as he was backing out of
the parking space, I saw his cane still dangling in shopping cart. I rushed to get it and ran after the the car about to move forward. You would think I had given that man a stick of Gold. My heart was full that day as our hearts are when random acts of kindnesses occur. Let our daily lives be a moving prayer and we will be filled. I've read, when younger, a gazillion books on all subjects, but when real traumas, challenging life situations arose, none were helpful. We need each other very much and all have something to give each other. Even Tolstoy, the great writer, abandoned estates, jewels, everything the end of his life living the life of the simple peasant and he writes, as the priests came to give him some sort of rite," Be off with you, I have found God." He had become whole.

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» RE: Love IS The Answer Posted by: poppop_schell
Buddha and constitution
Posted by: Robba29 on May 25, 2007 2:16 PM   
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pop-That's why I qualified my response with its difficult to generalize about Buddhism. Some Buddhists do revere Buddha as a god, though he explicitly said he was not. He was very much grounded in the material world. But, you can't stop people from believing what they do...oh, well.

As far as the Constitution and Mormonism--I don't want to offend you in my response. Suffice to say that I do not believe that the Constitution was divinely sanctioned, as I do not believe even in Christianity, I cannot accept a quote from the book of Mormon as evidence. Addtionally, it would seem odd that God would do something like that then leave his name off of it (when he certainly lets you know what other publications he's made) and that he would choose a bunch of Deist/humanist/rationalists as his medium. Don't know if I can buy that.

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I do not...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on May 28, 2007 5:17 AM   
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...like to be called an atheist. To do so give credibility to those that believe in Invisible Friends. Do we have a name for those that do not believe in ghosts?

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Recognition of Each Other's Right to Exist
Posted by: pbr90 on Jun 14, 2007 6:02 PM   
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The principle of theism is to reinforce the recognition that everyone has a right to exist and falls within the presumption of being children of God.

But recognizing each other's right to exist doesn't require the existence of God to do that. We know it by the evidence of seeing each other in flesh and blood, and knowing what it means to exist by virtue of our own existence.

Do people need the Bible to explain existence when we evidence that fact daily?

How we think about existence depends upon the degree of recognition we accord human rights to exist, and that we extend to others within that same human framework to prevent conflict and preference and discrimination to favor the existence of some over others.

Biblical and religious disputes do not provide that end to conflict; in fact, it has exacerbated conflict, thereby making conflict where they need be none.

Supporting the basic fundamentals of the right to exist relies not, therefore, upon the principles of religion, but upon our own internal understanding of human existence.

Religion is, therefore, a hindrance, not a help, and we have numerous wars, and human rights violations to show that, not to mention many instances of crimes that do not fulfill the principles that are claimed to be held sacred in religion, which bespeak the hyprocrisy of religion, not its truth or its necessity.

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