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The Christian Right's Fear of Pleasure is Our Greatest Threat to Choice

By Chris Hedges, Truthdig. Posted May 19, 2007.


The war against abortion has nothing to do with the protection of life. It is a war against an open society -- a cover for assaults against sexual pleasure and personal choice.
05192007story

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Jeniece Learned stood amid a crowd of earnest-looking men and women, many with small gold crosses in their lapels or around their necks, in a hotel lobby in Valley Forge, Pa. She had an easy smile and a thick mane of black, shoulder-length hair. She was carrying a booklet called "Ringing In a Culture of Life," which was the schedule of the two-day event she was attending, organized by the Pennsylvania Pro-Life Federation.

The event was "dedicated to the 46 million children who have died from legal abortions since 1973 and the mothers and fathers who mourn their loss."

Learned, who had driven five hours from a town outside Youngstown, Ohio, was raised Jewish. She wore a gold Star of David around her neck with a Christian cross inset in the middle of the design. She stood up in one of the morning sessions, attended by about 300 people, most of them women.

The speaker, Alveda King, niece of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., had asked if there were any "post-abortive" women present. The most fervent activists in the pro-life movement have usually had abortions, with large numbers admitting to multiple abortions.

Learned runs a small pregnancy counseling clinic called Pregnancy Services of Western Pennsylvania, in Sharon, where she tries to talk young girls and women, most of them poor, out of having abortions. She speaks in local public schools, promoting sexual abstinence as the only acceptable form of contraception. And she has found in the fight against abortion, and in her conversion, a structure, purpose and meaning that previously eluded her.

The relentless drive against abortion by the Christian right -- the first salvo having been fired with the 5-to-4 Supreme Court decision last month to uphold the federal ban on the procedure known as "partial birth abortion" -- has nothing to do with the protection of life. It is, rather, a cover for a wider and more pernicious assault against the ability of women to control their own bodies, the use of contraception and sexual pleasure.

The movement openly conflates contraceptives with devices or substances that cause abortion. It holds up as heroes of "conscience" those pharmacists who refuse to sell contraceptives. It works to block over-the-counter sales of Plan B emergency contraceptive pills. It peddles, with hundreds of millions in tax dollars handed to the movement by the Bush administration, abstinence-only sex-ed curricula and opposes a vaccine against the HPV virus, the major cause of cervical cancer, claiming it would promote promiscuity.

The denial of contraception, as is well documented, increases the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions. And abortion is never going to go away. If it again becomes illegal, the rich, as in the past, will find ways to provide abortions for their wives, mistresses and girlfriends, and the poor will die in unhygienic back rooms.

But since this is a war with a wider agenda, abortion statistics and facts do not count. The Christian right fears pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, which it sees as degrading, corrupting and tainted. For many, their own experiences with sex -- coupled with their descent into addictions and often sexual and domestic abuse before they found Christ -- have led them to build a movement that creates an external rigidity to cope with the chaos of human existence, a chaos that overwhelmed them. They do not trust their own urges, their capacity for self-restraint or judgment. The Christian right permits its followers to project evil outward, a convenient escape for people unable to face the darkness and the psychological torments within them.

The leaders of this movement understand that the only emotion that cannot be subsumed into communal life, which they seek to dominate and control, is love. They fear the power of love, especially when magnified and expressed through tender, sexual relationships, which remove couples from their control. Sex, when not a utilitarian form of procreation, is dangerous.

They seek to fashion a world where good and evil are clearly defined and upheld by the nation's judicial system. The battle against abortion is a battle to build a society where pleasure and freedom, where the capacity of the individual and especially women to make choices, and indeed even love itself, are banished. And this is why pro-life groups oppose contraception -- even for those who are married. The fight against abortion is the facade for a wider fight against the right of an individual in a democracy.

Army of God, a pro-life organization that holds up as Christian "heroes" those who murder abortion providers, defines birth control as another form of abortion, as do many other pro-life groups. In the "Birth Control Is Evil" section of their website it reads: "Birth control is evil and a sin. Birth control is anti-baby and anti-child. ...Why would you stop your own child from being conceived or born? What kind of human being are you?"

Learned's life, before she was saved, was typically chaotic and painful. Her childhood was stolen from her. She was sexually abused by a close family member. Her mother periodically woke Learned and her younger sister and two younger brothers in the middle of the night to flee landlords who wanted back rent. The children were bundled into the car and driven in darkness to a strange apartment in another town. Her mother worked nights and weekends as a bartender. Learned, the oldest, often had to run the home. She got pregnant in high school and had an abortion.


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Chris Hedges, who graduated from Harvard Divinity School and was for nearly two decades a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, is the author of "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America."

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My Favorite Right-Wing Twisted Logic Regards Birth Control...
Posted by: yellow on May 19, 2007 2:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and opposes it with the question, "Why would you want to stop your own baby from being born?" I would ask, "What baby?" Your stopping a baby from being born all the time you abstain from sex. I'm doing it now!! What crazy logic!!

I suppose that ultra-rightist religious fanatics believe that the only reason to have sex is to consumate one's marriage vows once again in the eyes of the Lord. Sex for pure pleasure is considered "fornication" and a horrible sin. And so one must leave it to the Almighty as to whether pregnancy results from a sex act or not.

Just more anti-enlightenment, anti-science, anti-human control of human affairs, anti-free choice from the clerico-fascists in the US today. Fite dem bock!!

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Pleasure-schmeasure
Posted by: JCrowe on May 19, 2007 2:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Christian right fears women who are not doormats.

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» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Gypsi
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: willymack
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Pleasure-schmeasure Posted by: Roverton
Women don't want equality when it is inconvenient to them.
Posted by: White middleclass male on May 19, 2007 2:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I saw an add the other day for “the morning after” pill. It had a women on it and said “ I choose a condom but it broke. This is my plan B”.

They should have one for men that say “I wore a condom but it broke. Now I'm fucked”

What about a man who wants to “abort” his responsibility to a child the same way women do with abortion?

Until I see that a man has the right to not make 216 payments on an unwanted child, I do not care about gender inequalities that concern women. Remember the Mother's day article about female care givers living in poverty at higher rates than men? Maybe that is because the man does the bare minimum required by law, but nothing else because he never wanted the little bastard in the first place.

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» Taxation without representation Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: DO THEM first.... Posted by: Scott
» KEEP IT ZIPPED, DUDE..... Posted by: Mewsician
I heard Learned's story before...
Posted by: adp3d on May 19, 2007 3:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...probably on Alternet in a previous Hitchens post. As I'm reading her story of when she got pregnant and had an abortion, it ocurred to me that that action served to break a cycle of abuse and dispair because that child would probably have fallen into the same type of situation that she was in. I am personally pro-choice and anti-abortion at the same time. I wouldn't presume to press my feelings and beliefs onto another and its just none of my damn business. A anti-choice co-worker once asked me how I would feel if my son got his girlfriend pregnant and wanted and had an abortion. I responded to the effect that "the choice is hers to make". I would probably council her if asked and would feel sad if she went through with it but I would only be supportive of her for whatever she decided.

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Where is the evidence?
Posted by: Jim on May 19, 2007 3:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is the evidence to support Hedge's thesis that fear of pleasure drives the anti-abortion movement? The story he told shows that guilt may be a motivating factor to some. As a radical Christian who differs with the Christian right in many areas, I haven't met any who talked as if a fear of pleasure was their motivation. A majority of anti-abortion folks are against birth control.

I found a Harris poll that showed
2. Birth control/contraception is supported by 93 percent of all adults, including 90 percent of Catholics and 88 percent of born-again Christians, the "very religious" and Evangelicals.
11. Abortion rights (which were not defined) are supported by 63 percent of the public, including 56 percent of Catholics, but by only 30 percent of born-again Christians, 39 percent of the "very religious" and 28 percent of Evangelicals.

Most anti-abortion people talk similarly to animal rights people, feeling pity for the poor victims. There is a growing concern for women, with more and more people caring that most abortions in the US are not "choice" but coerced. I do not hear this addressed by pro-"choice" people.

Hedge's psychoanalyizing of groups of people he obviously knows very little of is not helpful. However, his conclusion that we should work to "alleviate the economic and social blights" is one I share. Wage inequality is certainly a grave injustice.

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» Abortion is NOT a form of homicide Posted by: wefearwhatwedontunderstand
» Life Isn't Perfect Posted by: edith
» RE: Where is the evidence? Posted by: oregoncharles
» Is the left "Godless"!!! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Is the left "Godless"!!! Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Is the left "Godless"!!! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Is the left "Godless"!!! Posted by: oregoncharles
» It's Hitchens BTW Posted by: Veronique
» You are right - it's Hedges Posted by: Veronique
» RE: Where is the evidence? Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» Where is the evidence? Good question. Posted by: Philip Newton
Why is Alternet so in love with Hedges?
Posted by: kenhymes on May 19, 2007 4:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does Alternet keep publishing this drivel? It's as bad as David Brooks, just from a different angle. Amateur sociology now merges with amateur psychology. I disagree with almost every aspect of the agenda of what is loosely called the Christian Right, but haven't noticed much Footloose-ian fear of pleasure among those I know. Hedges has his target confused with some earlier version of American Christianity. If the fundies are afraid of something connected to abortion, it is female power. And I have to say that there are just as many feminists (male and female) afraid of pleasure as Christians - since Hedges doesn't have to provide evidence, I'll just assert that anecdotally for the heck of it :o).

One more time: American Christianity is as complex and multi-faceted as American leftism, or American intellectualism, or American sports. It is both unreasonable and counterproductive to keep insisting that religion is the source of all our problems, as Alternet seems determined to do.

Furthermore, how long will it take the Internet-left to get that the ONLY times the left has been successful in the US has been when it was in alliance with religious progressives? Do you want to win, or do you want to be right about the beginning and end of the universe? Every time you lash out at people who believe in invisible things, singing the praises of bullies like Hitchens and Harris and Dawkins, you drive a wedge between seculars and believers that is the precise inverse of the bond the GOP has formed between business and fundamentalists. In other words, we lose because theory has been more important than practice.

Anyway, it's just such a boring and tiresome way of living, isn't it? Arguing like college sophomores about God and science, when the people who actually know something about God or science are not anywhere in sight? How about focusing on the ONE WINNING SET OF ARGUMENTS THE LEFT ACTUALLY HAS? I mean the stuff about economic justice, remember? You're not going to settle the culture wars, but if you deliver real benefits for working people, maybe they'll be interested in listening about these other issues, and maybe in the process the left will have learned something about the actual culture that exists in the United States, instead of preaching - yes preaching - at it with little or no street level information.

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Religionist paternalism upholds male dominance
Posted by: mgloraine on May 19, 2007 5:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would be terribly inconvenient if women began owning their own bodies and having some control over their own destinies. That would stand as a challenge to the absolute domination of all finance and culture by males of European descent, which is of course, ordained by God (I'm sure it says so in the Bible somewhere...).
Unfortunately, it seems pretty evident that the wealthy and powerful of this world have always used religionist fantasies to placate the have-nots: "Don't worry! In the next world, everything will be beautiful!" Right, you keep planning for the next world while we secure exclusive rights to your life and property in this one.
The most vocal and adamant scripture thumpers are those with political axes to grind. Their gum-flapping about the "sanctity of human life" has no credibility, since these are the same people who support the death penalty, the slaughter in Iraq, the slaughter in Palestine, the slaughter in Afghanistan, Panama, El Salvador, East Timor, Cambodia, Viet Nam, etc. In fact, the complete disregard for the sanctity of human life is one of the most striking characteristics of religionists in general, and anti-abortionists in particular (remember the killing of health care professionals and bombing of clinics by some of these compassionate, God-fearing citizens).
"The Silent Scream" was debunked as an actual "silent scream" almost immediately upon its release, but that hasn't diminished its popularity at anti-choice meetings since, kind of like "Birth Of A Nation" at KKK rallies I guess. I would not attempt to diminish the personal anguish experienced by the woman in the story upon viewing this film, but if one goes to horror shows, one should expect to be horrified.

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Hedges Theory is Interesting-Here's Mine
Posted by: drricklippin on May 19, 2007 5:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether it is fear of pleasure of sexuality or other factors like even love I'm certain that for the anti-abortion zealots it's about control of others because they DO fear an open society that upsets their rigid beliefs and throws them into virtual panic when those beliefs are challenged.

One of my psychodynamic takes on why the anti-abortion zealots are so energized by this issue is that on some unconcscious level they view themselves as "fetuses" who are about to be destroyed by a secular society.

To them, destroying their fundamentalist christian beliefs is tantamount to a real or metaphorical death for them which demonstrates how very sick they really are.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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» Hmmm Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Hmmm- says Philip Newton Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Hmmm Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Hmmm Posted by: davewuxi
Control or choice, fear or love , terror or freedom, hate or honor
Posted by: maryelizmc on May 19, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The violence of abuse, assault and abandonment in early childhood forced me to abort every egg in my two ovaries. My ability to be human, to give birth to another, was stolen from me.

The suffering of fear of me, of others, of my thoughts, of my body was the path of my life. My body, mind and spirit were laced with self killing pain that seeped into every thought and cell of my being. Unfortunately the religious, family, medical and educational cultures surrounding my life kept me imprisoned but somehow a spark refused to go out. Many, many years I battled to ignite that spark. The bringing of that spark to know the beauty of my life of love is moving to be fully open this morning. Chris Hedges’ words of hating and fearing the pleasure of being human, the hating of the power of creating and pushed me one more step into the light of love and respect.

My around the clock work for the past twenty one years has been to dig myself out of the hell of hatred, the only protection I knew. My needs were stifled, all that mattered was their needs, initially my parents and family, then my world.

Chris’s words highlight the terror of fundamentalism in our country which is just as powerful as the terror of the Middle East fundamentalists. My life was founded on fear and total control. In 1984 one of the first intuitive steps I took to break this deadly life path was found in a small hand puppet I named Timothy. In my late 50’s it was not the in-thing to speak through a grey, furry rabbit hand puppet. The name I gave my small friend was foreign to me. I believe it was inspired intuitively as a light into the truth of my natural self. The foundation of my religious life was the Baltimore Catechism, not the old or new testaments. Later as Timothy became an important aspect of my life, I learned in the first chapter of Paul’s second letter to Timothy are words to the effect: I did not give you a spirit of fear; I gave you a spirit of love. I gave you a good mind to manage your life, your being, your body, all of who you are naturally, to choose.

As I internalize my natural spirit of love of me and others, the final battle is the conflict of the power of thought with feeling, or my mind with sexuality or the battle of pain versus pleasure, the battle of control or choice, the battle of the spirit of fear or pleasure. To use my intellect to let go of their pain, not my pain and embrace the pleasure of my feminine nature is my choice of my will freely made.

The terror of fundamental Christianity moves me forward to talk, write and shout out how the power of being a victor enabled me to overcome the violence of the power of being a victim. Their way of imprisonment is the suffering Christ on the Cross that they celebrate by perpetuating victim hood. I celebrate the victory of the resurrection revealing the wonder of the honor of being human, our original gifts. I invite you to watch for my words in THE THREE Vs.

Thank you Chris Hedges for your words helping me focus more clearly on how powerful is our home based terror battling to snuff out the love of life of the people of our great country, yours and mine included. I believe God’s love is right out there one by one capturing the minds and hearts of the people. My gratitude is for the perseverance to know the power of choice is free and love is alive.

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It starts out ok, but...
Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 19, 2007 6:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like how it gets to the psychological themes of the Christian Right mentality. Projection of evil, sanctification of hatred...good stuff.

Towards the end of the article, it wanders in a bad direction. Does a difficult upbringing or economic circumstances excuse that kind of thinking and behavior? What about all the other people who have been through economic and personal difficulties but haven't become fanatics?

If someone hates gays or bombs abortion clinics, it may be everybody's problem, but it's that person's sin. The rest of us are not obligated to lure them out with economic security or community hugs.

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» RE: Crucial difference Posted by: oregoncharles
Born again as panacea
Posted by: liberalibrarian on May 19, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have found several things that the born again people who come across my life have in common. Before I attempt to list them, I have to say that progressive religion is and has been a good motivator in this country. Progressive religion includes Unitarian-Universalism which is what I am. I have had born again relatives harangue me each and every time we talk (some for the last time) about my poor soul in jeopardy and they have the answer. This burns my cookies (to put it mildly). When they can't give it a rest, I have had to cut off the relationship. That is unfortunate.

It seems that many of them have used the born again thing to compensate for excesses in their past--as if simply getting control over whatever they were doing by oneself or through some other kind of therapy weren't good enough. They seem to believe in a kind of micromanaging Santa kind of god (one cousin thinks that he met his current born again wife immediately after praying about it--how convenient--never mind they were at a convention) They are utterly intolerant of any one else's path to the Divine.

And yes, they are intolerant of pleasure--I think because they fear they cannot behave moderately-many of them come from dysfunctional families (my extended one sure does) and have that fear that they "won't be ablle to stop"..

Hey I'm all for the handpuppet idea. As David Sedakis mentions in one of his books, "we were one of those families that should have communicated with handpuppets long ago."

I value my freedom of religion. I value theirs.They cannot reciprocate. Simple. They are therefore a threat to our religious pluralistic democracy.. Period.

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» RE: Born again as panacea Posted by: wolfdaughter
» RE: Born again as panacea Posted by: astudent
» RE: Born again as panacea Posted by: mombot
» RE: Born again as panacea Posted by: robmikejas
» RE: Born again as panacea Posted by: herdless
Like in Australia - deep down under
Posted by: talkville on May 19, 2007 7:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's Nature, there's Human Nature -- in the middle there's the Human. Nature and Culture collide; have for the longest of times. Ask Descartes or Hobbes or Aristotle or Plato. Ask Hindus or Christians or Muslims or Jews. We're in no better or worse position these days to answer - despite the cult of Technology and the "Free Market" we currently are experiencing (and have experienced before in many forms). The flesh, the real flesh, the Body each one of us is (or if you are of other persuasions "has") is problematic -- downright hateful to some; they want you to join them by hook or by crook. Depends on their position -- rich or poor? entrepreneur or worker? merchant or aristocrat? noble or peasant? When ALL existing, living, breathing, flesh and blood and bones humans can live in dignity, in peace and in justice everywhere -- THEN let's begin to talk about Life and Living, Body and Soul (or Mind, or what-ever). Kings have had their day, and they have failed. The Bourgeois are in charge now and their clothes have disappeared. We are human, and a better world is possible.

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Take the Plank Out of Your Own Eye First
Posted by: Gravitas on May 19, 2007 7:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I agree that the Christian right hates pleasure and doesn't trust their own interest, the left has the same Puritanical restrictions around eating and food. Sociologist believe societies need deviance. When we relaxed sexual mores we tightened up gastronomic ones. That is why the left buys into this antiobesity hysteria even though so much of it is coming from BigPharma/diet. The right tells you you will go to hell if you have sex, the left warns you about an early grave. Both relentless nag as a way of controling a population even though at some point it should be left up the the choice of the individual.
Height = 5"7"
Weight = 220
Respect for those trying to force me to diminish = 0%

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Grim
Posted by: mommy64 on May 19, 2007 7:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No offense.
"Poet Dana Gioia mocks the simple, fill-in-the-blank feel of the structure in 'My Confessional Sestina.' Poetry workshops thrive, much to the chagrin of some recognized poets, protecting their turf, much like...free traders, our way.
"When will it end? This grim cycle of workshops
churning out poems for little magazines
no one honestly finds to their taste?...
The Guardian provides a superb poetry workshop, including poets who criticize the effort. Imagine, however, that many would treasure a major in poetry from prestigious universities. Much like the citizen journalist wrote: "We would all like to be Republicans," not, however, recognizing that the newspaper editor who wrote: "This is not a Democracy; it's a Republic," meant "Empire in the works."

You can be a Wal-Mart customer
but don't compete.
You can read Gioia,
but don't write poetry.

Then wreaths that greet guests on holiday nights,
with streetlights aglow and snow covered roads,
where trellised bushes, filling quiet fields,
yield berries for wreaths on frosty front doors..."

Empire, not Republic, "the rest is commentary."

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» RE: Grim Posted by: talkville
» RE: Grim Posted by: mommy64
» RE: Grim Posted by: mommy64
» RE: Grim Posted by: talkville
» RE: Grim Posted by: mommy64
» RE: Grim Posted by: mommy64
» RE: Grim Posted by: mommy64
» RE: Grim Posted by: talkville
Hedging his "P" words ...
Posted by: Kaatje on May 19, 2007 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Hedges has written and said many things with which I agree about the silliness and peril of religion. However, as with the instant discussion of the fear of pleasure as a motivating factor for the anti-abortion mob, I suggest that he is hedging an otherwise convincing argument, one that involves another "P" word, i.e., patriarchy.

Patriarchy is the stinking elephant (political parties aside) in the room that few are willing to see, ever. It's as though to utter the very word is to cast aspersions upon one's father or grandfather, so little do people understand the meaning of the word, and so infrequently is it expressed by others who purport to know all manner of fraught verbiage. Patriarchy is simply a male-oriented social structure that demands total male dominance and control; anything that threatens this hierarchical orientation, dominance and control is considered heresy. So much, then, for abortion, gay marriage (or, just being gay or gender-different), women who speak up, and anyone or anything else that might be seen as beyond the control of the least capable, knuckle-dragging specimen of male virility, a creature who can always rest easy in the knowledge that there's inevitably someone lower than himself on the cultural eat-or-be eaten food chain.

In any event, I have no doubt that Chris Hedges is well acquainted with the definition of patriarchy, but wonder why he doesn't more directly discuss its relevance to religion, politics, war, our predatory marketing-driven culture, etc. It is not a fear of pleasure that informs the anti-abortionists, but rather a deeper fear of what pleasure represents, a fear of running afoul of the patriarchal pecking order, of not only losing personal control, but more importantly of an invisible hand (pa, grand-daddy, God?) ready to smite the miscreant for daring to be uncontrollable.

Sadly, women have bought into patriarchy as much as men, perhaps even more so. It's the Stockholm Syndrome writ large as original sin.

For more insight into patriarchy, I highly recommend The Gender Knot: Unraveling Our Patriarchal Legacy, by Alan Johnson. It's an eye-opener. Unfortunately, the author provides few solutions to eliminating elephant stink, other than to suggest becoming a Ghandian mahoot, but at least he helps the reader recognize the foul, pervasive odor of patriarchal poop.

Finally, I admit to not yet having read Hitchen's newest tome about the un-greatness of God, which is on its way as I write. Perhaps he addresses patriarchy therein. Regardless, I must thank him for voicing what I've long believed about the appellation of "atheist." I never felt the word made any sense insofar as it's used to describe the truly incredulous among us, myself included; it's a weasel word only slightly stronger than "agnostic." I agree with Hitchens that the more appropriate word is "anti-theist." The sooner humanity banishes religion to the dust bin of history, the better, but it'll never happen until we first do something about that miserable, stinking elephant that requires groveling droves, some might say goon squads, of excrement-shoveling minions. Admitting that it even exists would be a good start.

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» RE: Hedging his "P" words ... Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Hedging his "P" words ... Posted by: Philip Newton
Let's get real
Posted by: gdonald on May 19, 2007 7:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The liberals, leftists, or what ever you want to label them are a group of people with more phobia's then you can dare name. This article on abortion and the right of women is really about not wanting to suffer consequences of bad judgment.

This article is more about wanting to have all the pleasures of sex but no responsibilty for the consequences that can arise from it. This writer has a severe phobia of christians when she accuses the christian right as those who don't enjoy sexual pleasures in order to try and justify abortion. I have to laugh at the way this writer twists the facts. This writer has no clue to reality.

Real life is always about making decisions. The decisions we make will either work for us or against us. The liberals want to be able to make any decision and suffer no bad consequences and when they do blame it on christians.

I tried the road of liberality in hopes to understand it but quite frankly, the liberal mentality is so far from reality and so full of hate mongers that I'd rather be a conservative and proud of it. I'm no neo-con because they are just as bad as liberals.

Let's get real. Life isn't fair and poor judgments and bad decisions do have consequences like unwanted pregnancies. So if you want to live it up and enjoy sexual pleasures but don't want to deal with pregnancy, then get surgically fixed. End of problem, no more unwanted pregnancies.

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» RE: Let's get real Posted by: talkville
» RE: Let's get real Posted by: gdonald
» RE: Let's get real Posted by: talkville
» RE: Let's get real Posted by: AmIsraelChai
» AmIsraelChai Posted by: gdonald
» RE: Let's get real Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Let's get real Posted by: gdonald
» Good Points Posted by: gdonald
» RE: Good Points Posted by: lessbread
» lessbread Posted by: gdonald
» RE: lessbread Posted by: lessbread
» RE: Let's get real Posted by: robmikejas
» robmikejas Posted by: gdonald
» Screw anything with feet! Posted by: Philip Newton
Whatever Happened To Privacy & Informed Consent?
Posted by: NoPCZone on May 19, 2007 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although I'll grant that abortion is a poor method of birth control and one I see as repulsive in most instances, it is legal and should be a personal and private matter. My concerns about abortion as practiced in the US have more to do with how the services are available and how they are rendered.

First, I have seen and heard more than enough to be concerned that some clinics are being less than complete when describing the risks and complications associated with medical abortion. Informed consent is a given in all procedural medicine, yet that seems to be lacking at many abortion clinics.

Second, the clinics themselves do not seem to be well enough regulated. Having seen the complications that can happen after the woman leaves the clinic, many times at some great distance from the clinic, I wonder if regulations should require abortions to be performed in hospital settings. It's certainly something that should be carefully looked at by peer-reviewed medical scientists.

As to the religious connections I have a couple of things to say. Whatever your faith- good for you. Now shut up and get on with your life. You have no right to make the lives of other people miserable and difficult- especially those pursuing a legal activity.

As a Christian I have no use for the fear-mongering that goes on among some (many) who claim to be followers of Christ. I have even less use for ministers and laity who seek to use the church for narrow political agendas. The Christian faith is predicated upon the concept that we are free moral agents and forcing your private faith upon people who do not agree is an abomination and opposite the whole concept of the Good News.

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» NeoLotus Posted by: gdonald