Barbaraehrenreich.com / By Barbara Ehrenreich
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 268

Higher Education Conformity

Is a college degree really a sign of competence? Or is it chiefly a signal to employers that you've mastered the ability to obey and conform?
May 2, 2007  |  
 
 
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Can you be fired for doing a great job, year after year, and in fact becoming nationally known for your insight and performance? Yes, as in the case of Marilee Jones, who was the dean of admissions at MIT until her dismissal last week, when it was discovered that she had lied about her academic credentials 28 years ago. She had claimed three degrees, although she had none. If she had done a miserable job as dean, MIT might have been more forgiving, but her very success has to be threatening to an institution of higher learning: What good are educational credentials anyway?

Jones is hardly the only academic fraud. The outplacement firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas estimates that 10-30 percent of resumes include distortions if not outright lies. In the last couple of weeks, for example, "Dr. Denis Waitley Ph.D." -- as he is redundantly listed in the bestselling self-help book The Secret, where he appears as a spiritual teacher -- has confessed to not having his claimed master's degree, and the multi-level vitamin marketing firm he worked for admits that it can't confirm the Ph.D. either.

All right, lying is a grievous sin, as everyone outside of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue knows. And we wouldn't want a lot of fake MIT engineering graduates designing our bridges. But there are ways in which the higher education industry is becoming a racket: Buy our product or be condemned to life of penury, and our product can easily cost well over $100,000.

The pundits keep chanting that we need a more highly skilled workforce, by which they mean more college graduates, although the connection between college and skills is not always crystal clear. Jones, for example, was performing a complex job requiring considerable judgment, experience and sensitivity without the benefit of any college degree. And how about all those business majors -- business being the most popular undergraduate major in America? It seems to me that a two-year course in math and writing skills should be more than sufficient to prepare someone for a career in banking, marketing, or management. Most of what you need to know you're going to learn on the job anyway.

But in the last three decades the percentage of jobs requiring at least some college has doubled, which means that employers are going along with the college racket. A resume without a college degree is never going to get past the computer programs that screen applications. Why? Certainly it's not because most corporate employers possess a deep affinity for the life of the mind. In fact in his book Executive Blues G. J. Meyers warned of the "academic stench" that can sink a career: That master's degree in English? Better not mention it.

My theory is that employers prefer college grads because they see a college degree chiefly as mark of one's ability to obey and conform. Whatever else you learn in college, you learn to sit still for long periods while appearing to be awake. And whatever else you do in a white collar job, most of the time you'll be sitting and feigning attention. Sitting still for hours on end -- whether in library carrels or office cubicles -- does not come naturally to humans. It must be learned -- although no college has yet been honest enough to offer a degree in seat-warming.

Or maybe what attracts employers to college grads is the scent of desperation. Unless your parents are rich and doting, you will walk away from commencement with a debt averaging $20,000 and no health insurance. Employers can safely bet that you will not be a trouble-maker, a whistle-blower or any other form of non-"team-player." You will do anything. You will grovel.

College can be the most amazingly enlightening experience of a lifetime. I loved almost every minute of it, from St. Augustine to organic chemistry, from Chaucer to electricity and magnetism. But we need a distinguished blue ribbon commission to investigate its role as a toll booth on the road to employment, and the obvious person to head up this commission is Marilee Jones.
Barbara Ehrenreich is the author of 13 books, most recently "Bait and Switch: The (Futile) Pursuit of the American Dream."
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My thoughts exactly!
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Posted by: zyxwvut on May 2, 2007 1:06 AM   
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I began wondering a few months ago if the main function colleges perform in making a person attractive to employers is that most people who go through college adopt the dominant values of our culture, become centrists or non-threatening leftists, and basically know how to play the game of life in America: obey authority, follow the rules, be optimistic about the future even if you sense there is little reason to be cheerful, be sweet, naive, and innocent.

Colleges today do not put the emphasis on scholastic learning, but instead on professional education. This type of education is all about playing the game of life in America and as far as ability, it mainly requires commonsense and personal ambition, not four years' worth of education. A community college could prepare students who plan to enter business or marketing in the technical aspects of their desired career paths. Life experience would fill in the gaps.

And yes, employers do fear analytical abilities in their employees. Thoughtful employees might question their managers and the organization they work for. Even worse, a human resources manager might fear for his or her own job if the applicant seems to be intelligent.

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» CONFORM = SUCCESS Posted by: anonimus1
» Stereotyping Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: Stereotyping Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: And why is conformity bad? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: And why is conformity bad? Posted by: poppop_schell

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BA is just a BA in mind-numbing conformity
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Posted by: Bobsays on May 2, 2007 1:09 AM   
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If I look at my life and the people I met in university, it was the ones who were 'bad' - didn't pick up their degrees because they hadn't paid library fines, or dropped out two years in, or stirred up a lot of shit on campus - who are now living both professional success and financial success. As for those who got the great grades, I never hear about them.

University, with its obsession over fees and testing, has totally undermined higher learning and destroyed creative thought. Now, with tuition fees outpacing inflation, universities and professors are co-conspirators in the most horrendous fraud of our times: that they are the only source of creativity and intellectual achievement. These people need to hang their heads in shame.

I recommend students to tell the social engineering freaks who run the universities to go get stuffed. If you have ideas, are passionate about learning, want to change the world, then the best thing you can do is to rebel against your professors and the system.

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» great advice for failure!!! Posted by: poppop_schell

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Good Article
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Posted by: flyingfish on May 2, 2007 2:25 AM   
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" although no college has yet been honest enough to offer a degree in seat-warming."
Ha!
Good article, and some good points.
Interesting about the MIT lady, there was also the case recently of the wikipedia editor claiming to be a professor holding several degrees who turned out to be a 23 or 24 year old kid. Didn't stop him from contributing valid/valuable information though!

I've had the thought before of, wouldn't things be more interesting if more people chose to work for themselves instead of so many vegetating under fluorescent lights, "working" for some behometh corporation?
It can be a daunting propostition not to fall in line with the status quo, for me though it was something I felt I owed myself, as well as everybody else. Especially for the fact that the status quo appears to be a crock.
This book was especially helpful for me, (this page does appear kinda cheesy, though it's got some great info in it.)

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» RE: Good Article Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good Article Posted by: Maurelia

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Business or Liberal Arts?
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 2, 2007 2:38 AM   
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I think it depends. For my first degree, I studied mostly social sciences, and most of my instructors were anti-establishment. Thanks in part to them, I don't believe everything I read, hear, or what people tell me. So that college experience didn't do a very good job of turning me into a conformist or a robot.

With business programs, it's more about jumping through hoops and following along without asking too many questions. Nobody uses calculus or economics in the real world--except maybe engineers or economists--but many B school students have to take two or so semesters of each. You're better off focusing your energies on getting through the courses than trying to understand the material or seeing its relevance.

College can be a radicalizing experience, or an extension of the mind-numbing conformity and hoop-jumping of high school, depending on the college, the major, the department, etc. This article is a basis for a good discussion, but I think it oversimplifies things.

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» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: Vandover
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: Vandover

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A Timely Article
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Posted by: talkville on May 2, 2007 2:52 AM   
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"Certainly it's not because most corporate employers possess a deep affinity for the life of the mind. In fact in his book Executive Blues G. J. Meyers warned of the "academic stench" that can sink a career: That master's degree in English? Better not mention it."

The institutions of education have fallen in line with the prison industry and even to a large extent our "health" industries -- disciplines of conformity and control (see Mental Health, for instance and the large number of pharmaceutical products designed especially for behavioral controls). The disciplines of corporatism in all aspects of living have become ubiquitous. The only thing not taught or encouraged is thinking for oneself (and, incidentally, for or about others).

Thanks for a very timely and very important article. It's time to un-blur the lines between education and indoctrination.

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» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: zorro
» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: talkville

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Engineering Bridges?
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Posted by: bornxeyed on May 2, 2007 3:10 AM   
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. And we wouldn't want a lot of fake MIT engineering graduates designing our bridges.

I have a degree in engineering and I never used any more math or physics in my engineering jobs that I didn't already know in high school.

I once asked a group of engineers why I ever needed to go to college, sit through boring lectures, take 6 semesters of calculus and end up $30,000 in debt just to use algebra and look up properties in tables and one fellow drone offered that going to college proved to employers you will show up on time.

An odd assumption, considering I was always late for my classes, if I even went at all.

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» Great point! Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Engineering Bridges? Posted by: Sushi
» University education vs OTJ training Posted by: poppop_schell
» There's a good point Posted by: ateo
» RE: There's a good point Posted by: poppop_schell

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Objectively?
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Posted by: igoeja on May 2, 2007 3:30 AM   
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Granted, people that can't handle college, or perform poorly, might think of it as conformity, and think of good grades as favoritism, but most college students, and particularly the best academic performers, are not conformists. What one considers conformity, is better termed socialization and value system similarity, but such value systems are inherently individualistic and often politically liberal and leftist, although all educational systems require some level of indoctrination.

Back to objectivity, one might think of education as a proxy for intelligence and productivity. Why? The correlation between educational attainment and IQ is about 0.6. The correlation between IQ and job performance is 0.4 to 0.8, increasing with job complexity.

Conscientiousness, the ability to follow through, is more likely the attribute one should single out, and this too has a high correlation with workplace performance.

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» RE: Objectively? Posted by: poppop_schell

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Another angle: are big-name schools worth it?
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 2, 2007 3:54 AM   
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New twist in the Jones story in today's Boston Globe:
"First, despite having falsely claimed three degrees she did not have, it turns out Jones does have a college degree -- from a school she did not list on the résumé she gave MIT when she first applied for a job there... She earned a bachelor's degree in biology in 1973 from a small Catholic college in Albany, the College of Saint Rose, according to MIT and Saint Rose...The news that Jones has a degree from Saint Rose raises the question of whether her past inspired her to lead a crusade to convince parents and students that a famous college isn't the only ticket to success."

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pick your major, pick your poison....
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Posted by: ellie on May 2, 2007 4:02 AM   
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as a university professor with a real PhD, (including the lifetime of debt for a miniscule salary) who is still very proud of her non-conformist and non-stellar performance in high school, I treasue those students who kick up a ruckus, try to get those baby sheeples to think out of the box, use common sense, encourage dissent plus creativity, and dispise giving and grading exams....

it all depends on the dicipline you pick, my dicipline, sociology, are the 'hold it folks, who spiked the kool-aid' people!!!

in my department, every faculty member gets one section of sociology 101 which makes the distribution of usually first year students fairly evenly distributed... we all have one hell of a time de-programming our students and try to get them up to speed on critical thinking from years of mind numbing standardized 'no child left behind' testing, teach then to read and write, and eventually, during the semester the lights start to go on in their heads, ok, most not all of them...

ok, back to coffee, rant done for now... conformity is based on your selection of your major... no real money to be made in soc, but it sure is fun being a professional pain in the neck, and our majors do go on to work on issues and projects that try to put a dent in unfair and injust mainstream policies and laws....

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» Communication Degrees... Posted by: Phenix

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Competence?
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Posted by: reval on May 2, 2007 4:12 AM   
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Anyone inclined to believe that there's a direct correlation between a college degree and competence needs to become a hospital patient with a life-threatening illness. That experience alone will teach you everything you need to know about what colleges are pumping out.

It will be one of the most frightful experiences you'll ever have in your life.
Rev. El

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» RE: Competence? Posted by: talkville

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Are college degrees signs of competence? Of course not. Look at President Bush.
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Posted by: HughScott on May 2, 2007 4:17 AM   
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For AlterNet bloggers with sheepskins who think they’re smart, I challenge them to take the following 10-question test:

1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters in English.
2. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
3. Name the epochs into which U.S, history is divided.
4. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
5. Who were Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Penn and Howe?
6. What are “elementary” sounds and how are they classified?
7. Define the following prefixes and use in conjunction with words: mis, pre, semi, post, non and inter.
8. Give four substitutes for the caret ‘u’.
9. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
10. Describe the movements of Earth and give its inclination.

Those questions are from a final exam administered to eighth grade students in Salina, Kansas. The year? 1895. That’s right, folks – 112 years ago.

My generation (I'm 71) got to the Moon using slide rules and T-squares. Today's "college" graduates need GPS to find the next gas station.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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» What a difference a year makes! Posted by: talkville
» Dickens re-dux Posted by: talkville
» Urban Legend King George Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: Urban Legend King George Posted by: pdxstudent
» Do They Change Your Depends Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» You're as Bad as Rush and Bush 43 Hugh Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» Ateo Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: lawl, 1337 computer science III h4x0r Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» A RIDICULOUS COMPARRISON Posted by: hurshy43
» RE: A RIDICULOUS COMPARRISON Posted by: poppop_schell

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It's not just college -- let's include the financial industry!
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Posted by: anonimus1 on May 2, 2007 4:52 AM   
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It's not just college -- let's include the financial industry!

I have a friend who filled me in on what goes on in the financial industry. Apparently, most financial planners go through endless hoops to receive various licenses, so that they can learn how to manage your money.

None of these people are hired for their ability to manage money, however. The interviews are all completely focused on one's ability to sell. It does not matter what company, either. They are ALL like this.

So, you can be a self-taught, gifted, market trader who knows how to make tremendous amounts of money. But if you get into the interview process with any of these financial firms, that same person won't ever open doors if they have not demonstrated that they can sell, sell, sell!!!! The sales guru will always have priority over the trading guru, with all financial firms. ALWAYS. This is no exaggeration, apparently, from what I have been told.

So, these firms will have someone manage your money who knows nothing about how to make money. They will certainly know how to sell, though. And they will know how to make you comfortable and ready to believe them, because they have been specifically trained to do this to you.

With most Americans facing major short-falls in retirement due to yearly 8% inflation of the US dollar, and sky-rocketing healthcare, food and energy costs -- the US government has essentially agreed to fully allow a bunch of sales morons to handle your money for you, to ensure that you retire.

As long as they are fully licensed and fully conformist, they are all set to go to screw up your retirement. I have learned to first ask such people if they know how to make successful trades in the stock market, and to demonstrate this ability on paper by picking stocks in the market, and see how much money they make in a one month time span.

99.9% these people will have no idea how to personally do this. However, it's essential that they personally make you consistent money in your retirement portfolio, so that you can retire.

Next time you sit down with a financial advisor, make sure they pass the paper-trading (on paper only -- not real trades) one-month stock test before they touch your hard-earned money!!!

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Yes and No
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Posted by: socialpsych on May 2, 2007 4:52 AM   
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I've been teaching college for 23 years and I would love a little more obedience and conformity from students. I don't mean in the sense of training kids to be mindless office drones. Hardly! I mean reading when they are given reading assignments and writing their own thoughts in their own words rather than cutting and pasting other people's work from the web and turning that in with their names on it. The Me Generation is too busy conforming to the demands of cell phone companies, video game manufacturers, and the downloadable music industry to be capable of controlling themselves enough to read, write, and do math in accordance with the contract they entered into when they signed on for duty as college students. In the end, we are graduating illiterate dolts who may be just what the marketplace of meaningless jobs deserves.

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» RE: Yes and No Posted by: benzene
» RE: Yes and No Posted by: babalucci
» LAZY STUDENTS ARE THE RULE Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: LAZY STUDENTS ARE THE RULE Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: Yes and No Posted by: omnivore

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the double-edged sword
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Posted by: kww355 on May 2, 2007 5:15 AM   
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The job market is so lousy ( in my corner of the world, at least ) that employers use the requirement of a degree as a first "screen" to lessen the sheer volume of applicants. If you make it over that hurdle, some will tell you that you are "too educated" for this particular job. You'll be bored, unhappy and won't stay. ( You knew it anyway but applied for the job in sheer desperation to bring in some $$ and try to pay off the student loans. )

Requiring a degree for many jobs is a conceit and "class-ism". I had 1 year of college, got a job that paid well and retired at 50. I know lots of brainy, intelligent grads but many don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain. My father calls them "educated idiots".

There can be a wide berth between "book learning" and good old common sense.

I'm not demeaning anyone with a degree. I'm just pointing out that there are lots of bright, concientious people out here without degrees that would be valuable employees. Too bad most companies will never find out.

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» RE: the double-edged sword Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: the double-edged sword Posted by: poppop_schell

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Irrelevant Degrees
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Posted by: emgscot51 on May 2, 2007 5:21 AM   
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I spent my career as a mainframe computer programmer, without a degree. I was surrounded by college graduates who often turned to me for help with the work we were all doing. My only concern with the graduates was that very few had relevant degrees like Computer Science. There were degrees in oceanography, communications, fine arts, and even one in theology. At least I got to continue to do the work I loved since promotions into middle management required that precious degree. Naturally, I became a well-paid consultant.

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» RE: Irrelevant Degrees Posted by: Bobsays

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sad state of learning
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Posted by: nkmarti on May 2, 2007 5:37 AM   
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I know this will sound stupidly utopian, idealistic, and a bit naive, but I feel that its the role of colleges as "training schools," the emphasis on what kind of job my kid's going to get--because it's often the parents that push this idea--that has made education into a commodity (and an expensive privilege) instead of an area of curiosity and intellectual growth. Just like how many schools with NCLB prepare for the tests, high schools--often, but not always, elite ones--prepare for college entrance, also often teaching for the tests.

Who gets to go to college, and how much it costs, are appalling. As a humanities professor, sometimes the cost of one student going to University can pay my salary. So it's not for the "big bucks" that we do it...it's for the intellectual interaction, turning students on to ideas, watching them light up when they learn. Those are (and should be the rewards) of a college experience. And more people should be able to experience that lightbulb going on.

Still, in a country so divided by wealth and privilege, and caught up in the myth that we're a "meritocracy" and that working hard can get you somewhere, getting a good job seems like the natural and only way to achieve success--and payoff massive debt, whether from college or otherwise.

I don't know specifically how I could personally change things, except staying actively involved in politics. I'll never stop trying to get the maximum amount of "light bulbs" to light in my classes, or turn students on to learning.

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» RE: sad state of learning Posted by: poppop_schell

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otto
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Posted by: otto on May 2, 2007 5:56 AM   
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Interesting and thought provoking! Marshall McLuhan used to insist that written exams were designed by professors after the invention of the printing press, as a means of controlling students who were too smart to handle. In earlier times lectures were public and obviously oral, as were exams, and students chose teachers who gave the best lectures. Students could ask questins and challenge teachers, but the teachers were the sources of their information and so had to be better informed. After books and reading became more common, many well-read students would stand up and challenge their teachers...so something had to be done to protect the teachers and their reputations: written (secret) exams that the teachers marked - privately, of course!

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Grad School
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Posted by: pdxstudent on May 2, 2007 5:58 AM   
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"In fact in his book Executive Blues G. J. Meyers warned of the "academic stench" that can sink a career: That master's degree in English?"

Ahh, a reminder of why I'm not going to grad-school (as an English major) unless someone else is paying for it.

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» RE: Grad School Posted by: zyxwvut

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Fear supports lower pay, too.
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Posted by: papermaven on May 2, 2007 6:10 AM   
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I found this on a librarian's job listing site the other day. Note that it requires a BA, prefers a Masters, and is full-time but pays hourly. Based on 2000 hours/year, which is, I suspect an overestimate, that's $22,720/year. You can't aspire to much on that, even in Knoxville.
SENIOR LIBRARY ASSOCIATE III-Howard Baker Center for Public Policy- Pay Grade 37, $11.36 hr. Regular, F/T Earned Bachelor's degree. Master's degree preferred. Administrative background with some archives knowledge helpful. Knowledge of webpage design and management and digitization. Knowledge of Windows operating system, some digital image, audio and video standards helpful. Apply with cover letter, UT Employment Application, resume and references to: Bobby Holt, Howard H. Baker, Jr. Center for Public Policy, 217 Hoskins Library, Knoxville, TN 37996-4014.
Req Number: 06-126980443K

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» Speaking as a library employee... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» We still have libraries? Posted by: ateo

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We need more liberal arts majors!
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Posted by: zooeyhall on May 2, 2007 6:18 AM   
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Liberal Arts majors (like sociology) are the ones that really matter in this world. Look at who it is that totalitarian governments monitor and arrest in the middle of the night. It is NOT the chemistry people or the MBAs or the engineers. It is the poets, philosophers, authors, sociologists...in other words the people who ask the fundamental questions and are the ones who THINK! They are the ones who raise the ruckus...not the geeks with the MBA in computers.

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» Ditto Posted by: talkville
» Science Posted by: benzene

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Now I remember why I'm self employed
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Posted by: Gypsi on May 2, 2007 6:23 AM   
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I'm not a conformist, I hate sitting for hours pretending to be busy, did 20 years in the business world, and just about won't hire anyone to touch anything that matters, like bookkeeping, money management or even web design. It only takes one educated idiot to crash a company when it's as small as mine. But I started the company when I couldn't get a job doing what I wanted to do. I hope to never re-enter the job market. I can't call a weed a rose and keep a straight face.. Great comments, great story.

I think a high school diploma from prior to 1980 might be worth a college degree today. We learned things that are just not being taught.

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» LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP Posted by: hurshy43
» RE: LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP Posted by: poppop_schell

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The American Dream
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Posted by: ritadona on May 2, 2007 6:26 AM   
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A college education is something that is sold hard, too, to the children of immigrants. It's a badge of honor among family to be among the ones who have attained such a lofty goal.
I've long felt, though, that college, much like the rest of this country's educational system (any country's system?) is an institution designed to do much as you've stated in your article--indoctrinate people into the ways of society, conformity. I've also known that college, university is a business, and like any other business, they have a bottom line.
It's funny to think that most of this country, getting back to the immigrant issue, is built by uneducated (often illegal) immigrant labor--people with skills that no college classroom could ever provide. Chief among these, survival. They don't teach you how to survive in college, though I suppose you figure that out (the fact that your college education didn't really teach you how to live in the real world) soon enough after you graduate.

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Graduate Degrees
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on May 2, 2007 7:02 AM   
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I work for a school system in West Virginia. My experience with the vast majority of "educators" - administrators in particular - is that they are singularly ignorant of what goes on in the world, don't read for pleasure, don't speak well, and can barely write a grammatical sentence. There are approximately 1,000 teachers and administrators in the system.

One of my jobs is to edit and publish student handbooks. When I began doing this 20 years ago, it was stunning how badly written they were. I get written requests for a variety of tasks from administrators, and most of the time the notes are full of spelling and grammatical errors. Often, they barely make sense.

Last fall, I had a show of my artwork at the local art center. My work has been displayed in many venues in several states, and I have won numerous awards. Although I don't make my living with my art, I have sold quite a few paintings and sculptures over the years. Also, I am on friendly terms with the administrators I work with, and they are aware of me as an artist. None of the administrators came to my opening, nor did any of them stop in to see the show during the 8 weeks in which it was in the gallery.

Just this past weekend, there was a Blues in the Schools (BITS) benefit at the same art center. The line-up of musicians included Fruteland Jackson; Johnny Rawls; Austin "Walkin' Cane," the winner of a recent local blues competition; and the Sean Carney Band, winner of the international blues competition in Nashville. The benefit was meant to help fund the program in one of our junior high schools, and it was widely advertised. Price of admission for this 4 hour concert was $20 in advance and $25 at the door.

Not one single administrator showed up, and only about 2 or 3 teachers came. Not even the principal of the school where the program is being held came. No music teachers. The school didn't even bring the students who are involved in the BITS project. BITS is a wonderful program that brings well-known blues artists into middle and junior high schools and teaches students the history of the blues, as well as getting them to play guitar and harmonica and to sing.

I realize that not everyone is interested in my art, and not everyone likes blues. Some people might not even consider the blues to be "real" art. However, I know that there are cultural events going on all the time here. There are poetry readings, art exhibits, music concerts, and art classes. I've almost never seen an "educator" at any of these affairs. Sporting events, however, are wildly popular, and there are always members of the educational community at every one of them.

Having an advanced degree does not make one educated. It does not ensure knowledge of any kind of culture. And degrees in education are pretty much mickey mouse degrees in any case. But, even though I am a programmer, editor, and documentation expert, (and also can actually speak and write English far better than almost any of them) I am considered "service personnel" and get paid far, far less than the "professionals" with degrees.

I'm counting the days to retirement.

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» RE: Graduate Degrees Posted by: mwildfire

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It's about intelligence.
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on May 2, 2007 7:06 AM   
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Barbara,

Employers give deference to college degrees for one reason - they are a strong predictor of success in the job. A degree is not the strongest predictor - that would be a general intelligence score, but employers are not allowed to administer general IQ tests. A college degree often serves as a very long and very expensive surrogate intelligence test.

The correlation between level of education and IQ is very strong. (There is ample evidence also that the correlation between IQ and conformity is strong - the average IQ in our prisons is much lower than the average IQ in our colleges.)

We need to sort out the real causes of success and failure in life, not just in employment, because misdirected social policies are wasting precious resources while causing untold misery to those who are most in need. I get the sense that you are crusading for improvements in this area - and I applaud your efforts, but on this issue, you need to be better informed to properly direct your efforts.

Please read The Bell Curve, by Herrnstein and Murray. It lays out the meticulously researched case for intelligence level as the root cause of social inequities. (The book has been trashed in the popular press as racist - it is not, but you have to actually read it to determine that.)

Reading The Bell Curve, one can perceive the heartbreaking devastation in the lives of those who "don't fit in" our society, who are being diminished and shunted aside because they don't "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" or any one of dozens of other metaphors for the application of intelligent strategies to one's socioeconomic situation.

The philosophy on which recent changes to our social welfare system are being based is that we all have equal potential, and that anyone who is not successful in life, fails out of willfulness. If only it were so, problems of poverty, crime and neglect would be so easy to fix. We would simply give those people a "good talking to."

As you said, "College can be the most amazingly enlightening experience of a lifetime." There are many who are simply incapable of experiencing this pleasure. We should design a world in which those people can find fulfillment at the level of which they are capable, including economic viability, and in which they can provide a net gain to society.

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» RE: It's about intelligence. Posted by: VZEQICVA

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Not impressed by graduates...
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Posted by: nise52 on May 2, 2007 7:06 AM   
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I went to college...just shy of 2 years. Ran out of $$ (was paying for it by working multiple jobs). No help from parents, no scholarships, loans, etc. Got trapped in the "work a job to pay the bills" cycle and never went back. That was 35 yrs ago.

Today I'm shocked by the number of college "graduates" who can't spell, write a coherent sentence, or speak clearly (including our President!).

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If you want to be a pundit, she's probably right.
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 2, 2007 7:13 AM   
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I'd start by pointing out that Ms Ehrenreich graduated with a Ph.D. in Cell Biology from Rockefeller, then chose to flog her grammatically correct opinions for profit and fun. Had she chosen to continue along that pathway, instead of going into the column-bit'ness, my thinking is that she might not think so lowly of the education that many of us depend on to pursue our ambitions. Perhaps this article is offered more as introspection--'I didn't need any silly college airs, and I'm doing just fine!'--than commentary relating to anything approaching the experiences of folks within a couple of standard deviations on a a bell curve? After all, I'm sure Rush Limbaugh didn't need whatever education he's got to do what he does, either. In fact, the more educated one is, I'd think the less likely one would be able to credibly pull off telling their peers how they should be running their lives. Again, I point to Ehrenreich's a.m. radio contemporaries.

If she questions whether some curricula are unnecessary, she's probably right, and in abstract, that shares some similarity with the way "games" are played in business, industry, and government. I'm glad it took her only a few decades to discover "inefficiencies of large organizations".

So yes, in some tiny little way, I suppose she can make a valid argument that the part of school that requires learning to come to class by 8 a.m. and handing in work on time are "Da Bossman's" way of trying to indoctrinate the masses to show up on time and accomplish the work they're being paid to perform.

Oh.

What.

Big.

Fat.

Giant.

Freaking

Horror.

*gasp, and yawn*

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Education is a racket
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Posted by: cairn on May 2, 2007 7:35 AM   
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I'm working on my Ph.D. in electrical engineering, telecommunications, here in Canada. I'm older, started my career after undergrad in '85. Coming back 20 years later it's incredible how devalued a Ph.D. has become.

It is simply a ticket into the North American job market for those born outside of North America. It's not about education, it's not scholarship, it's the large tuition fees these students garner for the university.

And in industry, these doctorals work at the level of someone with a Masters would 20 years ago. It's all about getting a job here.

If you want solid people with a maturity and professionalism in research and innovation you must look at those taking post-doctoral positions after their Ph.D. and demonstrate in the two or three years of work they can actually do original research.

A Ph.D. demonstrates nothing.

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» RE: ducation is a racket Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE:Oooo, what you said! Posted by: Sushi

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Let's not exaggerate things to the point of absurdity
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Posted by: sugamretniw on May 2, 2007 7:36 AM   
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I understand that some people seem to posses a certain ambivalence about college and most likely other paradigms of standardized evaluations. Sure we can all point to that person who went to college and got high marks but in day-to-day life does not demonstrate impressive intellectual ability. To be fair however, I can also point out many people I know who didn't go or do well in college and they demonstrate the same low performance in their day-to-day lives: poor time management skills, horrific judgement and decision making skills, not particularly resourceful, and tending to deal with problems emotionally rather than recognizing many issues as being caused by the lack of adequate information. I went to college and I found it a very stimulating experience but I think it's because I am a person who relentlessly seeks out stimulation and growth opportunities. There are also many high school dropouts who are mindless drones who don't have the added benefit of at least being educated drones.

While many college courses don't require exceptional intelligence they do require the discipline to perform on cue, to do something whether you feel like it or not. That is a key skill to learn in life because most of life is doing things you don't want to do when you don't want to do them.

Blaming colleges and universities for being unable to de-drone the masses of brain-dead youth that America sends to them is unfair. I would assert that if you're a drone when you leave college, you were most likely a drone when you started. If you're clever and resourceful as a graduate, you were most likely that way when you started. I know it may sound cynical to some but I would say that a high percentage of children on America's playgrounds are being trained at school and at home to be drones by parents who themselves are drones.

As far as the MIT incident, the dean was fired because she lied. It does appear that she was very competent but rules are rules. If she was so skilled why didn't she just get her degree? If on the other hand, she had some anti-standardized evaluation philosophy and therefore did not believe in attending college she should have just said so. She should have proudly stated her philosophy when being interviewed by MIT initially. Instead she skipped college and all the boring work but still wanted all the perks of a degree - awwww. Well I would love to eat cheesesteaks every day and night and not gain weight but life isn't like that unfortunately. She demonstrated a lack of good judgement, why don't we all lie about our degrees? I'm not judging her or anyone else, we all make mistakes but as adults we all have to realize that we may one day have to publicly account for those mistakes. Maybe she should use this time to actually get a degree, if for nothing more, her own personal redemption.

M

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» Or... Posted by: ateo

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long-winded musings on the state of our lovely world
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Posted by: OneAcre2012 on May 2, 2007 8:07 AM   
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Well, it's nice to know we're all still doomed. College is hardly the problem. Sure, there's plenty of hoop-jumping if you wish to get a BA, but there are plenty of opportunities to prove your non-conformist mettle. I graduated from a smaller satellite version of the big state school, and for those who seek, plenty there is to find. However, pressure to perform in an educational setting seems to be indoctrinated now, at least for those who are deemed smart enough to handle it. This all starts way before college, even down at primary school levels, where the good kids are separated from the bad by the whims of administrators who have more in common with prison guards than with Socrates. College changed a lot during the time I was there, and this is at a commuter campus. When I arrived in the fall of 1999, the average student age was pushing 30 as the school had long catered to those now deemed "non-traditional" students who were trying to get some college work done in their spare time while usually tending to a full time job and/or a family.

By the time I graduated in the spring of 2005, campus began to resemble a high school, with all kinds of young kids and their cell phones wandering around socializing. All these kids younger than I had been indoctrinated with the idea that attending college is a must, and so many of them ended up there perhaps when they otherwise wouldn't have. And what's more, those that do graduate and stay in the area will probably take jobs that they could've gotten without all the college credits they went in debt for.

Most people I think go to college because they assume that a degree will equal a bigger payday later on. That's the motivation, but like everyone else has mentioned, student loan debt couple with no health insurance led me to the job I'm in now, and I feel cobbling together a resume and trying to sell myself to prospective employers, probably in towns far away from my friends and family, to be somewhat demeaning. "Please hire me, because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me!"

It doesn't help that most jobs aren't real jobs anymore. I'm not going to fight for my right to a cubicle. I don't want to sell anything to anyone, even if I do get a neat head-set and can hang out on e-bay all day. If the purpose of higher education is just to make one's own personal situation, particularly regarding finances, more appealing as opposed to trying to make the world a better place, then what is the point? I know now that the reason I went to college was to prove my worth to everyone who watched over me as a I grew and told me I was smart and that I should go to college. But I never needed to prove anything to anyone anyway.

Now, I'm in a period of spiritual renewal, realizing wholeheartedly that I'm compelled toward two fields: a) small scale organic farming, because god knows this prison industry country we live in after it collapses under the trillions of dollars in debt won't be able to feed anyone let alone deliver high speed internet and Tivo, and b) rock n' roll, baby, because communities are gonna have to come back and music, arts and crafts, and parties and festivals will be the backbone, as human creativity is destined to rebel against the cubicle culture. I mean, really, what else is there to do?

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College Smarts
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Posted by: banger on May 2, 2007 8:26 AM   
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The perfect example of this would be our 'so called' prez
GW Bush. Need I even say more?

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Cut the college pork
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Posted by: edith on May 2, 2007 9:37 AM   
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This article confirms part of my belief that federal to "education" is simply a jobs program for consultants and federal employees, not a means to qualitatively improve education.

The Democrats want to subsidize college tuition, which only means that the charlatans who run our colleges will simply raise tuition and the subsidy hike cycle will be begin again.

The author correctly asks whether every job really requires a college degree as contrasted with some other form of training(less expensive training, no doubt.)

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Higher indoctrinaton
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on May 2, 2007 9:46 AM   
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I am a dropout. I dropped out of high school a couple of times, gave up, tested into college, dropped out, got kicked out - gave up on that too. Interfered with my education.

I loved the atmospherics though - all those active, engaged minds. Wouldn't have minded hanging out there longer, but the overall process was pretty tedious.

I couldn't accept that I was paying these pompous asses to demean me, make me engage in meaningless trivia and generally run my life. Not my bag.

Look, I do accept that there is knowledge to be gained - especially at some of the elite schools - I just couldn't handle the regimentation and other stupidities. Those of you Profs out there who see your job as stimulating students to educate themselves - I salute you. Those of you who are trapped in a system that allows for little or no individuality or innovation - I commiserate with you.

Myself, when I get curious about something, I learn about it. I found this magic tool when I was about 7 - a library card. Now I have a computer and haunt used book stores.

I have tremendous respect for my Phi Beta Kappa wife. I also have a lot of respect for my college dropout son. Not gonna tell you how much money he makes as a software architect, he wouldn't like it and some of you professors would be jealous.

I was thrilled to see this article because it hits me where I live. I have met some brilliant academic types and my share of educated idiots. I would love to see college turned into a bearable experience for people like me. I would love to see more emphasis on the knowledge acquired than the paper that (often erroneously) says you've acquired it.

College should be an intellectual awakening. Often it is but lets face it, all too often it is not or interferes with the process. Frankly I don't have a lot of hope that significant change will occur anytime soon - the establishments are too entrenched and making too much money to seriously rock a lot of boats.
Worth talking about though - and we can always dream.

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Funny Story -
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Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on May 2, 2007 10:00 AM   
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I have a brother in law who works as a programmer for a company out of town. He has ten years of experience there, and yet until recently he was never considered for a promotion. Why? He never got a degree.

For an entire decade people vastly less skilled than him who had come straight out of the most prestigious colleges in the state took the job he just got. Every time they were fired or wound up leaving, usually in less than nine months. Every time they did shitty work, didn't show up on time, had bad manners, couldn't write papers, didn't know how to talk to people on the phone or in person, and were in general just poor workers. Even the best of them wasn't good enough. Finally, my brother in law's boss got the picture - these graduates suck ass, and a college degree doesn't mean jack shit. He finally gave my brother in law the position he'd deserved for ten years.

This underscores what I've learned about so-called 'higher education'. College is not about education, it's about certification. It's not so you can learn and become a better or smarter person, it's so you can get a piece of paper that'll allow you to get a job that pays a living wage. In other words, it's bullshit. Very expensive bullshit that doesn't prove anything in the end besides how much in debt you probably are by the time you're out of school.

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Autodidact
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Posted by: NoPCZone on May 2, 2007 10:14 AM   
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The US has turned against the autodidact despite the fact that many of the most brilliant and world changing people were not products of a formalized University Education. This flies in the face of reason, history and common sense.

A self-taught person that is capable of demonstrating their ability to perform should be given the opportunity to get the job. Being an autodidact reflects discipline, commitment, motivation and a real interest in the subject matter. Holding a University degree reflects nothing more than the desire to have a University Degree. The degree holder may or may not have any real interest and may have slid through by memorization, plagiarism and the infamous curve. I'm not slamming degreed people- I am the product of Higher Ed, but have learned far more on my own than any tuition-based school ever taught me.

When one is a student of history and looks at the individuals that have made earth shattering innovations, creations or changes, the representation of autodidacts is impressive. Looking at CEOs politicians and other leaders that have wrecked companies, governments and institutions despite impressive credentials is even longer. Having a Harvard or Stanford degree is no proof of ability, motivation or competence. George W. Bush is a product of Yale (B.A.) and Harvard (M.B.A.), for example.

Beyond the HR fascination with Degrees is it's preference for Ivy League and other "elite' school Diplomas. The last time I checked, the material covered is the same at fill-in-the-blank U as it is in Cambridge, MA. A noun is still a noun, the rules of math are the same, Hydrogen is still lowest on the Periodic Table, Manifest Destiny is still a big factor in US History and Darwin is the author of evolutionary theory at both.

What our nations employers and parents have bought into is a cousin of the Japanese obsession with graduates of Tokyo University and a handful of other schools. Cram sessions, tutoring and all the rest for tests to get your child into the school that is a ticket to the inside. Kids and parents there have attempted suicide over a bad test score or a denied admission. Things here are not that bad, but are definitely headed in that direction.

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» RE: Autodidact Posted by: stvotaw
» RE: Autodidact Posted by: NoPCZone

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Questioning in School may Get You a Failing Grade in Life
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Posted by: blimpBoy on May 2, 2007 10:48 AM   
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Failing to conform, obey and adhere to expectations of college brass practically guarantees a life of penury for graduates not connected to various conformist organizations, fraternities/sororities/clubs/societies like (Greeks, Boule, Etc.) that help re-affirm the status quo.

I graduated from a prestigious University on the East Coast with Highest Honors (Summa Cum Laude), along with National and International Certificates of Merit, Golden Key Honor Society Status, Highest Academic recognition awards from my department (Sociology with a Track in Science…yes, physiology, chemistry, physics, calculus, etc), a Presidents’s Scholar of Merit and placement in several publications recognizing academically gifted students.

In fact, I have academic recognition coming out the ass! On paper, I seem like a topnotch candidate destined to reach untapped potential while earning opportunities to positively impact something. But that ain't happening!

My “mistake” is I am a non-white male, who began meekly questioning the status quo while attending school both as an undergraduate and graduate student.

Although unwritten in some hegemonic manuals, a bright male of color in the 21st century who questions too much or seems too intelligent (uppidty during Crow) appears overly dangerous, rebellious and threatening to most folks regardless of their race.

This is the Land of the free right? Or must one stay in his place?

Furthermore, two other gifted students in my graduating class (my associates) received full scholarships to graduate school[s]. Congrats to them for they will be debt free while I chug around a $60,000 debt at 4.5%. Currently, I do not attend school due to economic reasons (a mind is a terrible thing to waste...yeah, OK!), but don't bring out the violins, I have toughened skin and I have matured enough to overcome most of the bitterness I had.

I could not even get into a (Physician Assistant Studies Program) requiring only a 2.5 GPA because my honesty in the application from CAPSA created a stir in the admissions department.

The take home message is if someone is academically gifted---especially if they are non-white--- inquisitive, unwilling to join organizations that defile personal principals, and less eager to play the “game,” he or she should be prepared for a life of penury or blacklisting---fortunately, it is then that the real-world learning starts…the stuff school never prepared us for.

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» whiny sociology majors... Posted by: Phenix

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davy
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Posted by: davy on May 2, 2007 10:52 AM   
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ON THE MONEY

As an X pat with 2 degrees from american universities I can say, you are so on the money. What a heap. After 60 years on the ol planet I can see no correlation between degrees and intelligence. Especially now considering the cost. I guess only those who can afford university are smart enough anyway. Sheeeeesh

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Well OF COURSE they had to fire her!
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Posted by: WitchyNy on May 2, 2007 10:58 AM   
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Can't be showing the people that someone WITHOUT a College Degree can do just as good a job as someone WITH one, can we?

What did the Wizzard of Oz say? "You don't need a brain-all you need is a College Diploma".

Or as one of my old Professors once said to me..."your problem is, you think you are here to get an education".

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Now I’m being threatened.
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Posted by: HughScott on May 2, 2007 11:08 AM   
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Here’s what apophenia_monkey wrote in response to my 10-question test:

“hey, my generation has more sense than yours to not believe everything in their in-box and then post it AS FACT.

as far as my GPS--i engineer network protocols, so my GPS can not only find the nearest gas station, it can also find the nearest old person's home and their internet connexion.

more still, not only can i 0wn your blog, i can do it from any wireless connexion and leave you completely clueless who turned your website into a pro-GW site.

so, as far as lighten up, sure, i'll do so when you stop posting misinformation and loose the sanctimonious old codger tude.

you continue at your *own* risk.”

End of apophenia_monkey’s rubuttal.

Notice that Apophenia misspelled “connection” twice. I rest my case about the dumbing down of America.

Finally, will he violate my right of free speech by hacking into King-George.biz?

I wouldn't be surprised. If Apophenia does mess with my website, a retired FBI agent buddy of mine will be the first one know. I'm pretty sure he can find out who "Apophenia" is.

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» Get over yourself Posted by: Ayla87

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My experience may be different, but I disagree...
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Posted by: olderworker on May 2, 2007 12:08 PM   
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Even though I come from a lower middle-class family, thus had to pay my own way through college and two graduate programs (I have an MSW and an MBA), I think I really learned a lot from those educational programs. I am definitely not happy about having to make the school loan payments each month, but I do perceive a difference in my worldview and that of many of my co-workers. (I work in a nursing home, so interact with cleaning staff and nursing assistants, who generally only hold high school diplomas). I am pleased to have been exposed to a lot of different subjects in college and grad school in which I otherwise would never have taken any interest. Economics, Statistics, and Classical literature are three such subjects. Yes, I wish education were cheaper and maybe briefer, but I do think it makes a difference beyond "learning to look awake" at meetings and the like.

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Oversimplified Article
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Posted by: Gravitas on May 2, 2007 12:10 PM   
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Oversimplified article that rambles a bit. College does not necessarily encourage conformity. That depends entirely on the major, instructor, and college itself. She may have a point college is becoming way too expensive. But the solution is to make it more affordable, not just whine about it. Of course, it is interesting to note this woman who complains about conformity mentions being repulsed or disgusted or some such thing by watching plus sized shoppers at Wal Mart. What does not prove? That her conventional weight prejudices are a product of HER college education.

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makes me sad..
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Posted by: Drclaw on May 2, 2007 12:04 PM   
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as a college prof, I probably am biased here, but I'll wade in anyway. Many of us are quite aware of many of the problems identified in the article and posts-rigidity, conformity, lack of critical thinking. It is true also that some of us are not, and many of us fight daily to make the college experience one of growth and not restriction. I'm saddened to see a lot of bitterness out there on people's experience with college, or college graduates. I try hard to prepare my students for the real world (even though I am not teaching a "marketable" subject), and more importantly, to think critically. Facts are important, but perhaps the least of the things that we should transmit to our students. Many of my colleagues share this view, and I hope those of you with less favorable impressions of the process don't throw the baby out with the bath water. On the other hand, I run into a lot of students who would rather I not do this, prefer multiple choice exams, attendence grades and tests involving a littany of facts as opposed to probing their ability to solve problems with logic and creativity (sadly, these students often go to medical school and can be quite succesful there). So, the next time you meet one of those people, try to keep in mind that it might not be their college experience that has made them so. I think we have a larger problem on our hands, and often spend a lot of time decontructing students before they get what I am trying to do. Finally, let me add that the problem is resource based. Yes, tuition is quite expensive in many places-more so now because state and federal support for education is at an all time low. Its quite hard to teach properly when you have too many students. I had 115 last semester, and each student wrote 3 (7-10 page) papers, and the 3 tests were essay based. It near killed me, since I must also continue to advise graduate students, serve on committees, help student organizations and fund my research. We really need your help here..

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ya want to hear something interesting?
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Posted by: rightisright on May 2, 2007 12:21 PM   
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Why can't people on the Left, and on the Alternet site in particular, discuss ANYTHING without politicizing it? This was a perfectly cogent, thoughtful, and interesting article. It had absolutely nothing to do with politics or, more specifically, the government. And yet, even though it was completely unrelated, the writer absolutely could not keep herself from taking a gratuitous and completely unnecessary swipe at President Bush: "lying is a grievous sin, as everyone outside of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue knows". Totally uncalled for, and totally unnecessary to make her point. Pathetic.

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..one more thing
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Posted by: Drclaw on May 2, 2007 12:54 PM   
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I've been turning the article over in my head, since something has been bothering me about it, or at least, some of what's been taken as an implied meaning. It seems like the presumption is that because this woman was fired, then the degree acted as a gatekeeper. Although that is true in many situations (and we can debate the meaninfulness of this criteron in specific cases), it's not clear that this was the case here. Perhaps she would have been hired without the degree as many of the other posters have related in their own stories. Second, the firing seems to me to be totally appropriate. Yes she was doing a great job, but she also misrepresented herself and didn't correct things. From this perspective alone, MIT needed to do what they did, otherwise they condone cheating when it is successful. Once we believe that the ends justify the means, we are well and truly F*cked, IMHO.

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» RE: ..one more thing Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar

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Interested
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Posted by: stvotaw on May 2, 2007 1:07 PM   
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Is a college degree really a sign of competence? Yes, that you can work well within a college environment. A college environment has not one thing to do with the real world. A college is by definition conservative, promotes institutionalized education, resists any challenges, and does not chance unless money is involved.

Or is it chiefly a signal to employers that you've mastered the ability to obey and conform? From the various companies I have been associated with a degree is only one variable considered in hiring. Qualifying for a job should only be about skill matching and experience. Those who do not understand specific job functionality use the degree ticket to reject resumes without a degree. This is based upon their own bias towards education versus experience and knowledge of a job.

Schools taught me how to segment people into stigmatized groups. School stress passing and failing, top half, bottom half, above average, below average, A students, B students, C students, D students and naturally dropouts. If schools had their way there would have been no Einstein, Gates, Churchill, Lewis & Clark, and Franklin. The people I have just mentioned have changed the world the last 350 years. If you check into what schools thought of these individuals you will find all about the educational problems they had.

I have a BS from an advanced institution, made the deans list, and graduated in less than four years. What I learned in Boy Scouts helped me work at top levels around the world on billion dollar projects, nothing in school helped. True education is lacking at all levels in school.

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Schools are conservative institutions
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on May 2, 2007 1:19 PM   
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Of course it's about conformity. They aren't called "courses" for nothing. You stay safely on the standard track - prescribed by someone who conformed years earlier sufficiently enough to established thinking to be called a professor - until the end of the semester, and then you get your credits towards a degree.

But it's not entirely a bad system, unless the expectation is that it'll rate people according to their ability to do some job (or not), in which case one is of course likely to be disappointed because that's not its purpose.

Schools are mainly in the business of processing people (as opposed to other raw materials like iron ore) and any education or learning which takes place in one is somewhat incidental to the purposes of the institution itself, which is to look after its own survival. As the saying goes, "an education is free - it's schools that cost money". Being in school can easily make it virtually impossible to get or give an education.

There's a reason very few of the best writers or artists are on the faculties of any namebrand university, and it's been that way for a long time. Anyone with a genuinely new idea or perspective on things will be run out of town on a rail long before they have the opportunity to do something as dangerous as possibly threaten the status quo with unauthorized thinking. So, yes, orthodoxy and groupthink are rewarded much more than their opposite, in spite of the rhetorical hype. Again, for lots of people the former things are actually something of an improvement, as difficult as this is to believe.

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School IS a political institution
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on May 2, 2007 1:35 PM   
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I think that as long as society is oriented toward power and profit the function of education will always be to select and reward those who will apply their talents without scruple to this end and to weed out those who might cause problems. For those without even much prospect for primary education: hard labor or prison. (Admitting exceptions, I think this charaterization is valid in general.)

I would highly reccomend John Dewey's writings on education to anyone interested in a constructive alternative.

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Wait...
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Posted by: Johnd2 on May 2, 2007 1:46 PM   
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you mean there are stupid people who went to college along with stupid people who didn't? NO! Seriously, great way to waste everyone's time and provide a cathartic outlet for dropouts.

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Diploma Mills
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Posted by: TWilliams on May 2, 2007 2:31 PM   
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So many universities are diploma mills. Some schools, in a drive to raise grades, forbid professors to give F's. People complain about standardized testing but how else are you going to prove someone is as intelligent as their grades are? I was amazed when I was an undergraduate tutor an the students I had to bring up to speed lacks BASIC math and writing skills. Most of them are freshly minted graduates working at Wal Mart. It serves them right ;o)

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» Good for you Posted by: ateo

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A new twist - looks like a feminist hatchet job after all
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on May 2, 2007 3:19 PM   
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See this article from the January 2007 Chronicle of Higher Education, called "The New Gender Divide", in which Jones is quoted (pg 2) while talking about the boy crisis in higher education:

The gender differential is not lost on parents. Marilee Jones, dean of admissions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, hears about it each time she gives a talk to parents about the college admissions process. "The No. 1 complaint is that their sons are not on top of the process, they're not dedicated, they just don't have their act together compared to the daughters," says Ms. Jones.

The dean considers herself a feminist, and believes that schools, colleges, and other institutions have wisely created more opportunities for girls. But those efforts have thrown off the traditional gender balance between males and females, she says.

Girls, says Ms. Jones, "are expected to be fun, well-mannered, pretty, and thin, but they're also expected to be leaders and athletes and dynamic decision makers." What roles does that leave for boys?

"A lot of boys can be kind of lost," she says. "I think the needs of boys are being neglected."

Elementary, middle, and high schools, for example, are designed for girls, she says. Students are expected to sit quietly at their desks, and teachers stress skills that require fine motor control — something that boys typically have in shorter supply. Boys, say other experts, are more likely than girls to be medicated for hyperactivity, to be disciplined by teachers, and to drop out of school.

Such wrong-thinking is obviously heresy to any Feminist Studies type and must be promptly and severely punished.

So, yes, it's about conformity, just perhaps not in the way Ehrenreich would have us think. It'll be interesting to see if the identity of the tipster turns up to confirm this hypothesis, but at the very least the timing of the article and firing are quite suspicious and suggest a direct link.

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Gravity Bongs and Memorization . . .
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Posted by: MAD on May 2, 2007 5:27 PM   
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That is precisely what I got out of college - all 7.5 years of it. There is not much you can't learn on the job but higher education is BIG BUSINESS folks. The University of R&D is what counts these days. Liberal Arts students are there to fund budding Brauns' research into new optical electronics and guidance systems. I don't regret going as I had the time of my life and certainly learned more outside the hallowed halls of academia than in them.

It didn't hurt that I settled for a pretty average state university that was quite affordable. Rather than spring for two very pricey schools that accepted me (U of Michigan and U of Chicago), I went to the "inferior" state school and excelled by sheer memorization through cram sessions. I would ace the test and graduated with a 3.8 having spent the vast majority of that time stoned out of my gourd. I learned very little in school mostly because I was skeptical of the formulaic crap they were trying to cram down my throat anyway. And those F'ing Group Projects!! Damn I hated that shit! Doesn't matter much anyway. I have a Masters and am no longer ahead of the curve. My degree is so much toilet paper and I remain underemployed. Oh well, say hello to the rest of your life.

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» RE: Gravity Bongs and Memorization . . . Posted by: albrechtkrausse

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Regarding my 10 questions from the "fake" 1895 eighth-grade final exam.
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Posted by: HughScott on May 2, 2007 6:12 PM   
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The questions were taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society & Library in Salina, KS, and reprinted by the Salina Journal. I have a copy.

If the Journal perpetuated a hoax, then so be it. In hindsight, to make my point about the dumbing down of America, I should've suggested everyone watch "Jaywalk" on NBC's Jay Leno show to understand how much.

One more thing. The CIA can water-board me all it wants but I will NEVER admit how many of the 10 questions I couldn't answer. But then, I'm an old person about to start wearing Depends.

Cheers, Hugh

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Dropping some science
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Posted by: doctorsquared on May 2, 2007 7:40 PM   
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Advanced education in the sciences, mathematics and engineering is somewhat different than the stereotypes about universities espoused in many comments on this thread. As a general rule (always with the rare exception of, say, the guy who wrote his thesis on his labmates' work and somehow bluffed his way past the defense) it's not a simple matter to get enough work done to convince a panel of stodgy science professors that you should be added to the relatively short list of persons with Philosophiæ Doctor after their names.

After the process, the PhD has, almost by default during the degree process, developed the ability to formulate and solve problems (to varying degrees, of course, depending on the graduate). Most of the PhD's in my class and the years surrounding it ended up either in tenure-track research professorships (after one or more postdoctoral research fellowships) or in R&D positions in such industries as energy, electrical engineering, pharmaceuticals, or at national laboratories (Berkeley, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, etc.). These folks end up designing your hybrid car's engine, or your digital camera's diode array, or the catheter used to stent the coronary artery you clogged with decades of Big Macs, and so on.

The problem is that science and engineering (and by this I mean the real nuts and bolts of it, the differential equations, the experiments, the mathematical modeling) are so far removed from the consciousness of the average person, that he cannot possibly understand the importance of maintaining quality higher education, as it tends to directly benefit only the most talented individuals. The vast majority of students do, indeed, end up being trained worker bees who never develop anything original or contribute to human knowledge directly. It is only via the implementation of the ideas of the very talented, usually nameless minority (which requires the efforts of the majority of educated drones and the working class as well), that the benefits are seen by the masses.

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» Science is but a tool Posted by: doctorsquared
» disambiguation......... Posted by: ekipnrut

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Students = Consumers
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Posted by: babalucci on May 2, 2007 7:55 PM   
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The problem with higher education is that it is a business. They have to tell you that you'll be more hireable to get you to pay. And you have to be GIVEN good grades to be more hireable. Most universities should be called vocational institutions. But that was what my students wanted--courses that would prepare them for the workplace, not courses that prepared them to think. And in the end, they are the consumers.

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This illustrates something I have believed for a long time now prefectly!
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Posted by: ateo on May 2, 2007 10:10 PM   
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College degrees mean nothing! Lying is not a bad thing, it is simply playing the game. Being "honest" is what gets you 7 dollars an hour at Wal-mart and put on welfare. Higher education is simply a way to exclude low income people from upward economic mobility. You think college loans are enough? Yea, let me point you in the direction of the MANY people I met at the Ft. Meade military entrance processing station who had tried to work (to cover living expenses) their way through college with student loans (to cover tuition), failed, and ended up joining the Army - HAPPY TO JOIN THE ARMY, because the civilian world had placed them in impossible situations. Yes, some people can make it in these situations but the vast majority have significant family support. For those without family money the only safety net is the U.S. military.

Look at all the successful people who get caught lying, cheating, stealing in America. CEO's, politicians, important figures in academia, presidents. What that tells me is that in order to "play the game" in America you've got to read between the lines to learn the unwritten rules as well as those that are obvious. It might be obvious that honesty is the best policy, but what you understand if you look deeper is that lying often gives one an advantage over those who are "honest."

So what's better, an honest life of abject poverty, or a dishonest life of luxury and comfort? Doesn't seem like a hard choice to me. You must do everything possible to further your career and earn money in the U.S. while maintaining a facade of honesty.

In America you can die in the streets and nobody will care. Or you can lie about credentials you don't have an get a high paying job with health insurance and live a nice comfortable middle class life. That's the reality of this people, nothing short of survival is at stake.

I applaud this woman and anyone else who will do what it takes to survive and thrive in a country as ruthless as the United States. I've been making comments like this on alternet for a while now, telling people that they should lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead in the U.S. Can't get a good job? Lie until you can then bust your ass doing it as best you can. Odds are you will be successful and after a few years you'll no longer have to lie because you will have real experience and real credentials.

The whole power structure and obsession with honesty and fairness is in place to keep all of us subjugated to our social "betters." Break away from the chains that society, which is ruled from the top, has placed on you - limiting your potential.

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I think it's less of a conspiracy and more of a fear
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Posted by: April_ on May 3, 2007 10:50 AM   
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I was sad to hear that Marilee Jones lost her job for that particular lie. I don't think other lies would have cost her her job.

Racket or Fear?
I think it is a racket to presume that you can only learn skills and knowledge via a college education. However, I don't think employers are hiring people with college educations because they want conformity. I think it's because they are afraid of making a mistake when they hire someone, and a college degree is familiar to them. They probably went to college and know what it takes to get a degree and it gives them some confidence in the person's abilities.

Measurable skills
I think a great solution to the problem of uncertainty about skills would be to have a set of standards - skill sets that are measurable - that way people could prove to employers that they have those skills and college is just one way to get them.

On the other hand, many jobs are mostly on the job learning and I think college does illustrate the ability to learn.

Are Universities improving?
I've seen university accreditation organizations emphasizing measurable learning objectives lately. This means they understand the need to provide measurable value to their customers- the students. With learning objectives you tell students- this is what you will be able to DO when you leave this class that you couldn't do before.

Research, wisdom, and life skills
There are things that could be improved about the university system, but it's also a great system for passing on wisdom and adding wisdom through research.

I wouldn't have missed my college experience for anything, but I would also like to have the skills I've gained in other ways be equally acknowledged and just as valued.

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Not a particularly informed article
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Posted by: dkm on May 3, 2007 12:06 PM   
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One of the posters mentioned that the school and department had a lot to do with one's conforming or not, not whether one had a degree per se. This is so obvious that it should have been the first thing mentioned in the article. I promise you that I graduated from college a LOT more likely to question authority than when I graduated from high school. Being exposed to such a wide variety of people from so many different backgrounds broadens your viewpoints and changes your attitudes (in general, now) much more than the relatively homogenous high schools that most people attend.

Caveat: Some colleges, particularly the small religious schools, do not fit this description as they are more homogenous than your average public high school, and there are some people who were raised to be so closedminded that exposure to differences just intensifies and reinforces their closedmindedness.

The example given of the tremendously capable woman who falsified her educational background on her resume falls into a common trap of using an outlier as a typical example. While this woman was good at what she did, how many people who fudge their resumes can claim the same? I could give a counterexample of my ex who claimed to have taken courses at a university that was shut down by student protests at the time. She used these pseudocourses to get her teaching certificate and has not exactly covered herself with glory ever since. Another example of how higher education broadens your perspective is to compare my high school classmates who went on to college with those who didn't. In general, those with high school educations accept the propaganda that spews forth from Fox entertainment concerning cultures that they have never experienced, while those who have seen a broader picture of the world, are better able to understand how the world works and to function in it.

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colleges and colleges
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Posted by: sweet_byrd on May 3, 2007 5:46 PM   
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I have always wondered at the extremely common use of the term "college" to describe every higher educational experience from attending a gigantic state land-grant university to a historically founded university to a small liberal arts college. We need to delve further to get to any real meaning -- what kind of college, what educational emphases, who are the faculty, what size is it, what are the expectations of the faculty and the students? The word "college" encompasses a plethora of possibilities.

For the record, I have attended all three of the types of college I listed above -- and each was a very unique experience.

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YOU GET WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT
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Posted by: hurshy43 on May 4, 2007 5:18 AM   
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COLLEGE IS JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE YOU DO. YOU GET OUT WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT. PEOPLE CAN NOT LOOK AT EDUCATION AS LEARNING HOW TO DO WHATEVER YOUR MAGER MIGHT BE. YOU DON'T GET A BUSINESS DEGREE TO LEARN HOW TO CONDUCT BUSINESS, YOU DO IT TO PROVE YOU HAVE THE TECHNICAL SKILLS TO DO SO, YOU KNOW HOW TO STUDY A PROBLEM THEN SOLVE IT OR TO DESIGN A SYSTEM THAT HELPS YOU AVOID PROBLEMS. YOU LEARN TO DO RESEARCH, SHOW YOU CAN COMPLETE A PROJECT OR IMPLEMENT A PLAN. A LOT OF THINGS PEOPLE GO TO COLLEGE FOR MAYBE WOULDN'T REQUIRE A DEGREE BUT WHAT HOSPITAL WANTS A NURSE JUST BECAUSE THEY KNOW HOW TO STICK A NEEDLE INTO YOU AND TAKE A TEMPERATURE.

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Lazy managers and personnel departments
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on May 4, 2007 1:43 PM   
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Part of the problem of useless degree requirements is based on the laziness of managers and personnel departments. Degree and "experience" requirements are often used as a substitute for doing a valid analysis of what it takes to do a particular job.

One thing a degree requirement does is to "date" the applicant so that older workers can be eliminated, often because the manager doesn't want someone in a subordinate position that actually knows more than they do. At this point in time Corporate America is actually dumbing down its own work force.

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My thoughts exactly!
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Posted by: zyxwvut on May 2, 2007 1:06 AM   
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I began wondering a few months ago if the main function colleges perform in making a person attractive to employers is that most people who go through college adopt the dominant values of our culture, become centrists or non-threatening leftists, and basically know how to play the game of life in America: obey authority, follow the rules, be optimistic about the future even if you sense there is little reason to be cheerful, be sweet, naive, and innocent.

Colleges today do not put the emphasis on scholastic learning, but instead on professional education. This type of education is all about playing the game of life in America and as far as ability, it mainly requires commonsense and personal ambition, not four years' worth of education. A community college could prepare students who plan to enter business or marketing in the technical aspects of their desired career paths. Life experience would fill in the gaps.

And yes, employers do fear analytical abilities in their employees. Thoughtful employees might question their managers and the organization they work for. Even worse, a human resources manager might fear for his or her own job if the applicant seems to be intelligent.

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» CONFORM = SUCCESS Posted by: anonimus1
» Stereotyping Posted by: anonimus1
» RE: Stereotyping Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: And why is conformity bad? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: And why is conformity bad? Posted by: poppop_schell

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BA is just a BA in mind-numbing conformity
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Posted by: Bobsays on May 2, 2007 1:09 AM   
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If I look at my life and the people I met in university, it was the ones who were 'bad' - didn't pick up their degrees because they hadn't paid library fines, or dropped out two years in, or stirred up a lot of shit on campus - who are now living both professional success and financial success. As for those who got the great grades, I never hear about them.

University, with its obsession over fees and testing, has totally undermined higher learning and destroyed creative thought. Now, with tuition fees outpacing inflation, universities and professors are co-conspirators in the most horrendous fraud of our times: that they are the only source of creativity and intellectual achievement. These people need to hang their heads in shame.

I recommend students to tell the social engineering freaks who run the universities to go get stuffed. If you have ideas, are passionate about learning, want to change the world, then the best thing you can do is to rebel against your professors and the system.

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» great advice for failure!!! Posted by: poppop_schell

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Good Article
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Posted by: flyingfish on May 2, 2007 2:25 AM   
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" although no college has yet been honest enough to offer a degree in seat-warming."
Ha!
Good article, and some good points.
Interesting about the MIT lady, there was also the case recently of the wikipedia editor claiming to be a professor holding several degrees who turned out to be a 23 or 24 year old kid. Didn't stop him from contributing valid/valuable information though!

I've had the thought before of, wouldn't things be more interesting if more people chose to work for themselves instead of so many vegetating under fluorescent lights, "working" for some behometh corporation?
It can be a daunting propostition not to fall in line with the status quo, for me though it was something I felt I owed myself, as well as everybody else. Especially for the fact that the status quo appears to be a crock.
This book was especially helpful for me, (this page does appear kinda cheesy, though it's got some great info in it.)

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» RE: Good Article Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Good Article Posted by: Maurelia

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Business or Liberal Arts?
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on May 2, 2007 2:38 AM   
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I think it depends. For my first degree, I studied mostly social sciences, and most of my instructors were anti-establishment. Thanks in part to them, I don't believe everything I read, hear, or what people tell me. So that college experience didn't do a very good job of turning me into a conformist or a robot.

With business programs, it's more about jumping through hoops and following along without asking too many questions. Nobody uses calculus or economics in the real world--except maybe engineers or economists--but many B school students have to take two or so semesters of each. You're better off focusing your energies on getting through the courses than trying to understand the material or seeing its relevance.

College can be a radicalizing experience, or an extension of the mind-numbing conformity and hoop-jumping of high school, depending on the college, the major, the department, etc. This article is a basis for a good discussion, but I think it oversimplifies things.

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» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: Vandover
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Business or Liberal Arts? Posted by: Vandover

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A Timely Article
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Posted by: talkville on May 2, 2007 2:52 AM   
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"Certainly it's not because most corporate employers possess a deep affinity for the life of the mind. In fact in his book Executive Blues G. J. Meyers warned of the "academic stench" that can sink a career: That master's degree in English? Better not mention it."

The institutions of education have fallen in line with the prison industry and even to a large extent our "health" industries -- disciplines of conformity and control (see Mental Health, for instance and the large number of pharmaceutical products designed especially for behavioral controls). The disciplines of corporatism in all aspects of living have become ubiquitous. The only thing not taught or encouraged is thinking for oneself (and, incidentally, for or about others).

Thanks for a very timely and very important article. It's time to un-blur the lines between education and indoctrination.

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» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: poppop_schell
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» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: A Timely Article Posted by: talkville

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Engineering Bridges?
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Posted by: bornxeyed on May 2, 2007 3:10 AM   
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. And we wouldn't want a lot of fake MIT engineering graduates designing our bridges.

I have a degree in engineering and I never used any more math or physics in my engineering jobs that I didn't already know in high school.

I once asked a group of engineers why I ever needed to go to college, sit through boring lectures, take 6 semesters of calculus and end up $30,000 in debt just to use algebra and look up properties in tables and one fellow drone offered that going to college proved to employers you will show up on time.

An odd assumption, considering I was always late for my classes, if I even went at all.

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» Great point! Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Engineering Bridges? Posted by: Sushi
» University education vs OTJ training Posted by: poppop_schell
» There's a good point Posted by: ateo
» RE: There's a good point Posted by: poppop_schell

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Objectively?
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Posted by: igoeja on May 2, 2007 3:30 AM   
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Granted, people that can't handle college, or perform poorly, might think of it as conformity, and think of good grades as favoritism, but most college students, and particularly the best academic performers, are not conformists. What one considers conformity, is better termed socialization and value system similarity, but such value systems are inherently individualistic and often politically liberal and leftist, although all educational systems require some level of indoctrination.

Back to objectivity, one might think of education as a proxy for intelligence and productivity. Why? The correlation between educational attainment and IQ is about 0.6. The correlation between IQ and job performance is 0.4 to 0.8, increasing with job complexity.

Conscientiousness, the ability to follow through, is more likely the attribute one should single out, and this too has a high correlation with workplace performance.

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» RE: Objectively? Posted by: poppop_schell

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Another angle: are big-name schools worth it?
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 2, 2007 3:54 AM   
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New twist in the Jones story in today's Boston Globe:
"First, despite having falsely claimed three degrees she did not have, it turns out Jones does have a college degree -- from a school she did not list on the résumé she gave MIT when she first applied for a job there... She earned a bachelor's degree in biology in 1973 from a small Catholic college in Albany, the College of Saint Rose, according to MIT and Saint Rose...The news that Jones has a degree from Saint Rose raises the question of whether her past inspired her to lead a crusade to convince parents and students that a famous college isn't the only ticket to success."

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pick your major, pick your poison....
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Posted by: ellie on May 2, 2007 4:02 AM   
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as a university professor with a real PhD, (including the lifetime of debt for a miniscule salary) who is still very proud of her non-conformist and non-stellar performance in high school, I treasue those students who kick up a ruckus, try to get those baby sheeples to think out of the box, use common sense, encourage dissent plus creativity, and dispise giving and grading exams....

it all depends on the dicipline you pick, my dicipline, sociology, are the 'hold it folks, who spiked the kool-aid' people!!!

in my department, every faculty member gets one section of sociology 101 which makes the distribution of usually first year students fairly evenly distributed... we all have one hell of a time de-programming our students and try to get them up to speed on critical thinking from years of mind numbing standardized 'no child left behind' testing, teach then to read and write, and eventually, during the semester the lights start to go on in their heads, ok, most not all of them...

ok, back to coffee, rant done for now... conformity is based on your selection of your major... no real money to be made in soc, but it sure is fun being a professional pain in the neck, and our majors do go on to work on issues and projects that try to put a dent in unfair and injust mainstream policies and laws....

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» Communication Degrees... Posted by: Phenix

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Competence?
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Posted by: reval on May 2, 2007 4:12 AM   
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Anyone inclined to believe that there's a direct correlation between a college degree and competence needs to become a hospital patient with a life-threatening illness. That experience alone will teach you everything you need to know about what colleges are pumping out.

It will be one of the most frightful experiences you'll ever have in your life.
Rev. El

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» RE: Competence? Posted by: talkville

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Are college degrees signs of competence? Of course not. Look at President Bush.
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Posted by: HughScott on May 2, 2007 4:17 AM   
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For AlterNet bloggers with sheepskins who think they’re smart, I challenge them to take the following 10-question test:

1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters in English.
2. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
3. Name the epochs into which U.S, history is divided.
4. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
5. Who were Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Penn and Howe?
6. What are “elementary” sounds and how are they classified?
7. Define the following prefixes and use in conjunction with words: mis, pre, semi, post, non and inter.
8. Give four substitutes for the caret ‘u’.
9. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
10. Describe the movements of Earth and give its inclination.

Those questions are from a final exam administered to eighth grade students in Salina, Kansas. The year? 1895. That’s right, folks – 112 years ago.

My generation (I'm 71) got to the Moon using slide rules and T-squares. Today's "college" graduates need GPS to find the next gas station.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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» What a difference a year makes! Posted by: talkville
» Dickens re-dux Posted by: talkville
» Urban Legend King George Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: Urban Legend King George Posted by: pdxstudent
» Do They Change Your Depends Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» You're as Bad as Rush and Bush 43 Hugh Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» Ateo Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: lawl, 1337 computer science III h4x0r Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» A RIDICULOUS COMPARRISON Posted by: hurshy43
» RE: A RIDICULOUS COMPARRISON Posted by: poppop_schell

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It's not just college -- let's include the financial industry!
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Posted by: anonimus1 on May 2, 2007 4:52 AM   
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It's not just college -- let's include the financial industry!

I have a friend who filled me in on what goes on in the financial industry. Apparently, most financial planners go through endless hoops to receive various licenses, so that they can learn how to manage your money.

None of these people are hired for their ability to manage money, however. The interviews are all completely focused on one's ability to sell. It does not matter what company, either. They are ALL like this.

So, you can be a self-taught, gifted, market trader who knows how to make tremendous amounts of money. But if you get into the interview process with any of these financial firms, that same person won't ever open doors if they have not demonstrated that they can sell, sell, sell!!!! The sales guru will always have priority over the trading guru, with all financial firms. ALWAYS. This is no exaggeration, apparently, from what I have been told.

So, these firms will have someone manage your money who knows nothing about how to make money. They will certainly know how to sell, though. And they will know how to make you comfortable and ready to believe them, because they have been specifically trained to do this to you.

With most Americans facing major short-falls in retirement due to yearly 8% inflation of the US dollar, and sky-rocketing healthcare, food and energy costs -- the US government has essentially agreed to fully allow a bunch of sales morons to handle your money for you, to ensure that you retire.

As long as they are fully licensed and fully conformist, they are all set to go to screw up your retirement. I have learned to first ask such people if they know how to make successful trades in the stock market, and to demonstrate this ability on paper by picking stocks in the market, and see how much money they make in a one month time span.

99.9% these people will have no idea how to personally do this. However, it's essential that they personally make you consistent money in your retirement portfolio, so that you can retire.

Next time you sit down with a financial advisor, make sure they pass the paper-trading (on paper only -- not real trades) one-month stock test before they touch your hard-earned money!!!

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Yes and No
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Posted by: socialpsych on May 2, 2007 4:52 AM   
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I've been teaching college for 23 years and I would love a little more obedience and conformity from students. I don't mean in the sense of training kids to be mindless office drones. Hardly! I mean reading when they are given reading assignments and writing their own thoughts in their own words rather than cutting and pasting other people's work from the web and turning that in with their names on it. The Me Generation is too busy conforming to the demands of cell phone companies, video game manufacturers, and the downloadable music industry to be capable of controlling themselves enough to read, write, and do math in accordance with the contract they entered into when they signed on for duty as college students. In the end, we are graduating illiterate dolts who may be just what the marketplace of meaningless jobs deserves.

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» RE: Yes and No Posted by: benzene
» RE: Yes and No Posted by: babalucci
» LAZY STUDENTS ARE THE RULE Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: LAZY STUDENTS ARE THE RULE Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: Yes and No Posted by: omnivore

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the double-edged sword
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Posted by: kww355 on May 2, 2007 5:15 AM   
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The job market is so lousy ( in my corner of the world, at least ) that employers use the requirement of a degree as a first "screen" to lessen the sheer volume of applicants. If you make it over that hurdle, some will tell you that you are "too educated" for this particular job. You'll be bored, unhappy and won't stay. ( You knew it anyway but applied for the job in sheer desperation to bring in some $$ and try to pay off the student loans. )

Requiring a degree for many jobs is a conceit and "class-ism". I had 1 year of college, got a job that paid well and retired at 50. I know lots of brainy, intelligent grads but many don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain. My father calls them "educated idiots".

There can be a wide berth between "book learning" and good old common sense.

I'm not demeaning anyone with a degree. I'm just pointing out that there are lots of bright, concientious people out here without degrees that would be valuable employees. Too bad most companies will never find out.

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» RE: the double-edged sword Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: the double-edged sword Posted by: poppop_schell

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Irrelevant Degrees
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Posted by: emgscot51 on May 2, 2007 5:21 AM   
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I spent my career as a mainframe computer programmer, without a degree. I was surrounded by college graduates who often turned to me for help with the work we were all doing. My only concern with the graduates was that very few had relevant degrees like Computer Science. There were degrees in oceanography, communications, fine arts, and even one in theology. At least I got to continue to do the work I loved since promotions into middle management required that precious degree. Naturally, I became a well-paid consultant.

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» RE: Irrelevant Degrees Posted by: Bobsays

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sad state of learning
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Posted by: nkmarti on May 2, 2007 5:37 AM   
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I know this will sound stupidly utopian, idealistic, and a bit naive, but I feel that its the role of colleges as "training schools," the emphasis on what kind of job my kid's going to get--because it's often the parents that push this idea--that has made education into a commodity (and an expensive privilege) instead of an area of curiosity and intellectual growth. Just like how many schools with NCLB prepare for the tests, high schools--often, but not always, elite ones--prepare for college entrance, also often teaching for the tests.

Who gets to go to college, and how much it costs, are appalling. As a humanities professor, sometimes the cost of one student going to University can pay my salary. So it's not for the "big bucks" that we do it...it's for the intellectual interaction, turning students on to ideas, watching them light up when they learn. Those are (and should be the rewards) of a college experience. And more people should be able to experience that lightbulb going on.

Still, in a country so divided by wealth and privilege, and caught up in the myth that we're a "meritocracy" and that working hard can get you somewhere, getting a good job seems like the natural and only way to achieve success--and payoff massive debt, whether from college or otherwise.

I don't know specifically how I could personally change things, except staying actively involved in politics. I'll never stop trying to get the maximum amount of "light bulbs" to light in my classes, or turn students on to learning.

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» RE: sad state of learning Posted by: poppop_schell

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otto
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Posted by: otto on May 2, 2007 5:56 AM   
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Interesting and thought provoking! Marshall McLuhan used to insist that written exams were designed by professors after the invention of the printing press, as a means of controlling students who were too smart to handle. In earlier times lectures were public and obviously oral, as were exams, and students chose teachers who gave the best lectures. Students could ask questins and challenge teachers, but the teachers were the sources of their information and so had to be better informed. After books and reading became more common, many well-read students would stand up and challenge their teachers...so something had to be done to protect the teachers and their reputations: written (secret) exams that the teachers marked - privately, of course!

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Grad School
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Posted by: pdxstudent on May 2, 2007 5:58 AM   
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"In fact in his book Executive Blues G. J. Meyers warned of the "academic stench" that can sink a career: That master's degree in English?"

Ahh, a reminder of why I'm not going to grad-school (as an English major) unless someone else is paying for it.

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» RE: Grad School Posted by: zyxwvut

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Fear supports lower pay, too.
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Posted by: papermaven on May 2, 2007 6:10 AM   
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I found this on a librarian's job listing site the other day. Note that it requires a BA, prefers a Masters, and is full-time but pays hourly. Based on 2000 hours/year, which is, I suspect an overestimate, that's $22,720/year. You can't aspire to much on that, even in Knoxville.
SENIOR LIBRARY ASSOCIATE III-Howard Baker Center for Public Policy- Pay Grade 37, $11.36 hr. Regular, F/T Earned Bachelor's degree. Master's degree preferred. Administrative background with some archives knowledge helpful. Knowledge of webpage design and management and digitization. Knowledge of Windows operating system, some digital image, audio and video standards helpful. Apply with cover letter, UT Employment Application, resume and references to: Bobby Holt, Howard H. Baker, Jr. Center for Public Policy, 217 Hoskins Library, Knoxville, TN 37996-4014.
Req Number: 06-126980443K

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» Speaking as a library employee... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» We still have libraries? Posted by: ateo

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We need more liberal arts majors!
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Posted by: zooeyhall on May 2, 2007 6:18 AM   
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Liberal Arts majors (like sociology) are the ones that really matter in this world. Look at who it is that totalitarian governments monitor and arrest in the middle of the night. It is NOT the chemistry people or the MBAs or the engineers. It is the poets, philosophers, authors, sociologists...in other words the people who ask the fundamental questions and are the ones who THINK! They are the ones who raise the ruckus...not the geeks with the MBA in computers.

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» Ditto Posted by: talkville
» Science Posted by: benzene

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Now I remember why I'm self employed
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Posted by: Gypsi on May 2, 2007 6:23 AM   
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I'm not a conformist, I hate sitting for hours pretending to be busy, did 20 years in the business world, and just about won't hire anyone to touch anything that matters, like bookkeeping, money management or even web design. It only takes one educated idiot to crash a company when it's as small as mine. But I started the company when I couldn't get a job doing what I wanted to do. I hope to never re-enter the job market. I can't call a weed a rose and keep a straight face.. Great comments, great story.

I think a high school diploma from prior to 1980 might be worth a college degree today. We learned things that are just not being taught.

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» LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP Posted by: hurshy43
» RE: LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP Posted by: poppop_schell

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The American Dream
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Posted by: ritadona on May 2, 2007 6:26 AM   
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A college education is something that is sold hard, too, to the children of immigrants. It's a badge of honor among family to be among the ones who have attained such a lofty goal.
I've long felt, though, that college, much like the rest of this country's educational system (any country's system?) is an institution designed to do much as you've stated in your article--indoctrinate people into the ways of society, conformity. I've also known that college, university is a business, and like any other business, they have a bottom line.
It's funny to think that most of this country, getting back to the immigrant issue, is built by uneducated (often illegal) immigrant labor--people with skills that no college classroom could ever provide. Chief among these, survival. They don't teach you how to survive in college, though I suppose you figure that out (the fact that your college education didn't really teach you how to live in the real world) soon enough after you graduate.

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Graduate Degrees
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on May 2, 2007 7:02 AM   
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I work for a school system in West Virginia. My experience with the vast majority of "educators" - administrators in particular - is that they are singularly ignorant of what goes on in the world, don't read for pleasure, don't speak well, and can barely write a grammatical sentence. There are approximately 1,000 teachers and administrators in the system.

One of my jobs is to edit and publish student handbooks. When I began doing this 20 years ago, it was stunning how badly written they were. I get written requests for a variety of tasks from administrators, and most of the time the notes are full of spelling and grammatical errors. Often, they barely make sense.

Last fall, I had a show of my artwork at the local art center. My work has been displayed in many venues in several states, and I have won numerous awards. Although I don't make my living with my art, I have sold quite a few paintings and sculptures over the years. Also, I am on friendly terms with the administrators I work with, and they are aware of me as an artist. None of the administrators came to my opening, nor did any of them stop in to see the show during the 8 weeks in which it was in the gallery.

Just this past weekend, there was a Blues in the Schools (BITS) benefit at the same art center. The line-up of musicians included Fruteland Jackson; Johnny Rawls; Austin "Walkin' Cane," the winner of a recent local blues competition; and the Sean Carney Band, winner of the international blues competition in Nashville. The benefit was meant to help fund the program in one of our junior high schools, and it was widely advertised. Price of admission for this 4 hour concert was $20 in advance and $25 at the door.

Not one single administrator showed up, and only about 2 or 3 teachers came. Not even the principal of the school where the program is being held came. No music teachers. The school didn't even bring the students who are involved in the BITS project. BITS is a wonderful program that brings well-known blues artists into middle and junior high schools and teaches students the history of the blues, as well as getting them to play guitar and harmonica and to sing.

I realize that not everyone is interested in my art, and not everyone likes blues. Some people might not even consider the blues to be "real" art. However, I know that there are cultural events going on all the time here. There are poetry readings, art exhibits, music concerts, and art classes. I've almost never seen an "educator" at any of these affairs. Sporting events, however, are wildly popular, and there are always members of the educational community at every one of them.

Having an advanced degree does not make one educated. It does not ensure knowledge of any kind of culture. And degrees in education are pretty much mickey mouse degrees in any case. But, even though I am a programmer, editor, and documentation expert, (and also can actually speak and write English far better than almost any of them) I am considered "service personnel" and get paid far, far less than the "professionals" with degrees.

I'm counting the days to retirement.

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» RE: Graduate Degrees Posted by: mwildfire

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It's about intelligence.
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on May 2, 2007 7:06 AM   
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Barbara,

Employers give deference to college degrees for one reason - they are a strong predictor of success in the job. A degree is not the strongest predictor - that would be a general intelligence score, but employers are not allowed to administer general IQ tests. A college degree often serves as a very long and very expensive surrogate intelligence test.

The correlation between level of education and IQ is very strong. (There is ample evidence also that the correlation between IQ and conformity is strong - the average IQ in our prisons is much lower than the average IQ in our colleges.)

We need to sort out the real causes of success and failure in life, not just in employment, because misdirected social policies are wasting precious resources while causing untold misery to those who are most in need. I get the sense that you are crusading for improvements in this area - and I applaud your efforts, but on this issue, you need to be better informed to properly direct your efforts.

Please read The Bell Curve, by Herrnstein and Murray. It lays out the meticulously researched case for intelligence level as the root cause of social inequities. (The book has been trashed in the popular press as racist - it is not, but you have to actually read it to determine that.)

Reading The Bell Curve, one can perceive the heartbreaking devastation in the lives of those who "don't fit in" our society, who are being diminished and shunted aside because they don't "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" or any one of dozens of other metaphors for the application of intelligent strategies to one's socioeconomic situation.

The philosophy on which recent changes to our social welfare system are being based is that we all have equal potential, and that anyone who is not successful in life, fails out of willfulness. If only it were so, problems of poverty, crime and neglect would be so easy to fix. We would simply give those people a "good talking to."

As you said, "College can be the most amazingly enlightening experience of a lifetime." There are many who are simply incapable of experiencing this pleasure. We should design a world in which those people can find fulfillment at the level of which they are capable, including economic viability, and in which they can provide a net gain to society.

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» RE: It's about intelligence. Posted by: VZEQICVA

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Not impressed by graduates...
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Posted by: nise52 on May 2, 2007 7:06 AM   
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I went to college...just shy of 2 years. Ran out of $$ (was paying for it by working multiple jobs). No help from parents, no scholarships, loans, etc. Got trapped in the "work a job to pay the bills" cycle and never went back. That was 35 yrs ago.

Today I'm shocked by the number of college "graduates" who can't spell, write a coherent sentence, or speak clearly (including our President!).

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If you want to be a pundit, she's probably right.
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 2, 2007 7:13 AM   
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I'd start by pointing out that Ms Ehrenreich graduated with a Ph.D. in Cell Biology from Rockefeller, then chose to flog her grammatically correct opinions for profit and fun. Had she chosen to continue along that pathway, instead of going into the column-bit'ness, my thinking is that she might not think so lowly of the education that many of us depend on to pursue our ambitions. Perhaps this article is offered more as introspection--'I didn't need any silly college airs, and I'm doing just fine!'--than commentary relating to anything approaching the experiences of folks within a couple of standard deviations on a a bell curve? After all, I'm sure Rush Limbaugh didn't need whatever education he's got to do what he does, either. In fact, the more educated one is, I'd think the less likely one would be able to credibly pull off telling their peers how they should be running their lives. Again, I point to Ehrenreich's a.m. radio contemporaries.

If she questions whether some curricula are unnecessary, she's probably right, and in abstract, that shares some similarity with the way "games" are played in business, industry, and government. I'm glad it took her only a few decades to discover "inefficiencies of large organizations".

So yes, in some tiny little way, I suppose she can make a valid argument that the part of school that requires learning to come to class by 8 a.m. and handing in work on time are "Da Bossman's" way of trying to indoctrinate the masses to show up on time and accomplish the work they're being paid to perform.

Oh.

What.

Big.

Fat.

Giant.

Freaking

Horror.

*gasp, and yawn*

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Education is a racket
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Posted by: cairn on May 2, 2007 7:35 AM   
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I'm working on my Ph.D. in electrical engineering, telecommunications, here in Canada. I'm older, started my career after undergrad in '85. Coming back 20 years later it's incredible how devalued a Ph.D. has become.

It is simply a ticket into the North American job market for those born outside of North America. It's not about education, it's not scholarship, it's the large tuition fees these students garner for the university.

And in industry, these doctorals work at the level of someone with a Masters would 20 years ago. It's all about getting a job here.

If you want solid people with a maturity and professionalism in research and innovation you must look at those taking post-doctoral positions after their Ph.D. and demonstrate in the two or three years of work they can actually do original research.

A Ph.D. demonstrates nothing.

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» RE: ducation is a racket Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE:Oooo, what you said! Posted by: Sushi

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Let's not exaggerate things to the point of absurdity
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Posted by: sugamretniw on May 2, 2007 7:36 AM   
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I understand that some people seem to posses a certain ambivalence about college and most likely other paradigms of standardized evaluations. Sure we can all point to that person who went to college and got high marks but in day-to-day life does not demonstrate impressive intellectual ability. To be fair however, I can also point out many people I know who didn't go or do well in college and they demonstrate the same low performance in their day-to-day lives: poor time management skills, horrific judgement and decision making skills, not particularly resourceful, and tending to deal with problems emotionally rather than recognizing many issues as being caused by the lack of adequate information. I went to college and I found it a very stimulating experience but I think it's because I am a person who relentlessly seeks out stimulation and growth opportunities. There are also many high school dropouts who are mindless drones who don't have the added benefit of at least being educated drones.

While many college courses don't require exceptional intelligence they do require the discipline to perform on cue, to do something whether you feel like it or not. That is a key skill to learn in life because most of life is doing things you don't want to do when you don't want to do them.

Blaming colleges and universities for being unable to de-drone the masses of brain-dead youth that America sends to them is unfair. I would assert that if you're a drone when you leave college, you were most likely a drone when you started. If you're clever and resourceful as a graduate, you were most likely that way when you started. I know it may sound cynical to some but I would say that a high percentage of children on America's playgrounds are being trained at school and at home to be drones by parents who themselves are drones.

As far as the MIT incident, the dean was fired because she lied. It does appear that she was very competent but rules are rules. If she was so skilled why didn't she just get her degree? If on the other hand, she had some anti-standardized evaluation philosophy and therefore did not believe in attending college she should have just said so. She should have proudly stated her philosophy when being interviewed by MIT initially. Instead she skipped college and all the boring work but still wanted all the perks of a degree - awwww. Well I would love to eat cheesesteaks every day and night and not gain weight but life isn't like that unfortunately. She demonstrated a lack of good judgement, why don't we all lie about our degrees? I'm not judging her or anyone else, we all make mistakes but as adults we all have to realize that we may one day have to publicly account for those mistakes. Maybe she should use this time to actually get a degree, if for nothing more, her own personal redemption.

M

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» Or... Posted by: ateo

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long-winded musings on the state of our lovely world
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Posted by: OneAcre2012 on May 2, 2007 8:07 AM   
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Well, it's nice to know we're all still doomed. College is hardly the problem. Sure, there's plenty of hoop-jumping if you wish to get a BA, but there are plenty of opportunities to prove your non-conformist mettle. I graduated from a smaller satellite version of the big state school, and for those who seek, plenty there is to find. However, pressure to perform in an educational setting seems to be indoctrinated now, at least for those who are deemed smart enough to handle it. This all starts way before college, even down at primary school levels, where the good kids are separated from the bad by the whims of administrators who have more in common with prison guards than with Socrates. College changed a lot during the time I was there, and this is at a commuter campus. When I arrived in the fall of 1999, the average student age was pushing 30 as the school had long catered to those now deemed "non-traditional" students who were trying to get some college work done in their spare time while usually tending to a full time job and/or a family.

By the time I graduated in the spring of 2005, campus began to resemble a high school, with all kinds of young kids and their cell phones wandering around socializing. All these kids younger than I had been indoctrinated with the idea that attending college is a must, and so many of them ended up there perhaps when they otherwise wouldn't have. And what's more, those that do graduate and stay in the area will probably take jobs that they could've gotten without all the college credits they went in debt for.

Most people I think go to college because they assume that a degree will equal a bigger payday later on. That's the motivation, but like everyone else has mentioned, student loan debt couple with no health insurance led me to the job I'm in now, and I feel cobbling together a resume and trying to sell myself to prospective employers, probably in towns far away from my friends and family, to be somewhat demeaning. "Please hire me, because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me!"

It doesn't help that most jobs aren't real jobs anymore. I'm not going to fight for my right to a cubicle. I don't want to sell anything to anyone, even if I do get a neat head-set and can hang out on e-bay all day. If the purpose of higher education is just to make one's own personal situation, particularly regarding finances, more appealing as opposed to trying to make the world a better place, then what is the point? I know now that the reason I went to college was to prove my worth to everyone who watched over me as a I grew and told me I was smart and that I should go to college. But I never needed to prove anything to anyone anyway.

Now, I'm in a period of spiritual renewal, realizing wholeheartedly that I'm compelled toward two fields: a) small scale organic farming, because god knows this prison industry country we live in after it collapses under the trillions of dollars in debt won't be able to feed anyone let alone deliver high speed internet and Tivo, and b) rock n' roll, baby, because communities are gonna have to come back and music, arts and crafts, and parties and festivals will be the backbone, as human creativity is destined to rebel against the cubicle culture. I mean, really, what else is there to do?

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College Smarts
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Posted by: banger on May 2, 2007 8:26 AM   
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The perfect example of this would be our 'so called' prez
GW Bush. Need I even say more?

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Cut the college pork
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Posted by: edith on May 2, 2007 9:37 AM   
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This article confirms part of my belief that federal to "education" is simply a jobs program for consultants and federal employees, not a means to qualitatively improve education.

The Democrats want to subsidize college tuition, which only means that the charlatans who run our colleges will simply raise tuition and the subsidy hike cycle will be begin again.

The author correctly asks whether every job really requires a college degree as contrasted with some other form of training(less expensive training, no doubt.)

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Higher indoctrinaton
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on May 2, 2007 9:46 AM   
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I am a dropout. I dropped out of high school a couple of times, gave up, tested into college, dropped out, got kicked out - gave up on that too. Interfered with my education.

I loved the atmospherics though - all those active, engaged minds. Wouldn't have minded hanging out there longer, but the overall process was pretty tedious.

I couldn't accept that I was paying these pompous asses to demean me, make me engage in meaningless trivia and generally run my life. Not my bag.

Look, I do accept that there is knowledge to be gained - especially at some of the elite schools - I just couldn't handle the regimentation and other stupidities. Those of you Profs out there who see your job as stimulating students to educate themselves - I salute you. Those of you who are trapped in a system that allows for little or no individuality or innovation - I commiserate with you.

Myself, when I get curious about something, I learn about it. I found this magic tool when I was about 7 - a library card. Now I have a computer and haunt used book stores.

I have tremendous respect for my Phi Beta Kappa wife. I also have a lot of respect for my college dropout son. Not gonna tell you how much money he makes as a software architect, he wouldn't like it and some of you professors would be jealous.

I was thrilled to see this article because it hits me where I live. I have met some brilliant academic types and my share of educated idiots. I would love to see college turned into a bearable experience for people like me. I would love to see more emphasis on the knowledge acquired than the paper that (often erroneously) says you've acquired it.

College should be an intellectual awakening. Often it is but lets face it, all too often it is not or interferes with the process. Frankly I don't have a lot of hope that significant change will occur anytime soon - the establishments are too entrenched and making too much money to seriously rock a lot of boats.
Worth talking about though - and we can always dream.

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Funny Story -
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Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on May 2, 2007 10:00 AM   
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I have a brother in law who works as a programmer for a company out of town. He has ten years of experience there, and yet until recently he was never considered for a promotion. Why? He never got a degree.

For an entire decade people vastly less skilled than him who had come straight out of the most prestigious colleges in the state took the job he just got. Every time they were fired or wound up leaving, usually in less than nine months. Every time they did shitty work, didn't show up on time, had bad manners, couldn't write papers, didn't know how to talk to people on the phone or in person, and were in general just poor workers. Even the best of them wasn't good enough. Finally, my brother in law's boss got the picture - these graduates suck ass, and a college degree doesn't mean jack shit. He finally gave my brother in law the position he'd deserved for ten years.

This underscores what I've learned about so-called 'higher education'. College is not about education, it's about certification. It's not so you can learn and become a better or smarter person, it's so you can get a piece of paper that'll allow you to get a job that pays a living wage. In other words, it's bullshit. Very expensive bullshit that doesn't prove anything in the end besides how much in debt you probably are by the time you're out of school.

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Autodidact
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Posted by: NoPCZone on May 2, 2007 10:14 AM   
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The US has turned against the autodidact despite the fact that many of the most brilliant and world changing people were not products of a formalized University Education. This flies in the face of reason, history and common sense.

A self-taught person that is capable of demonstrating their ability to perform should be given the opportunity to get the job. Being an autodidact reflects discipline, commitment, motivation and a real interest in the subject matter. Holding a University degree reflects nothing more than the desire to have a University Degree. The degree holder may or may not have any real interest and may have slid through by memorization, plagiarism and the infamous curve. I'm not slamming degreed people- I am the product of Higher Ed, but have learned far more on my own than any tuition-based school ever taught me.

When one is a student of history and looks at the individuals that have made earth shattering innovations, creations or changes, the representation of autodidacts is impressive. Looking at CEOs politicians and other leaders that have wrecked companies, governments and institutions despite impressive credentials is even longer. Having a Harvard or Stanford degree is no proof of ability, motivation or competence. George W. Bush is a product of Yale (B.A.) and Harvard (M.B.A.), for example.

Beyond the HR fascination with Degrees is it's preference for Ivy League and other "elite' school Diplomas. The last time I checked, the material covered is the same at fill-in-the-blank U as it is in Cambridge, MA. A noun is still a noun, the rules of math are the same, Hydrogen is still lowest on the Periodic Table, Manifest Destiny is still a big factor in US History and Darwin is the author of evolutionary theory at both.

What our nations employers and parents have bought into is a cousin of the Japanese obsession with graduates of Tokyo University and a handful of other schools. Cram sessions, tutoring and all the rest for tests to get your child into the school that is a ticket to the inside. Kids and parents there have attempted suicide over a bad test score or a denied admission. Things here are not that bad, but are definitely headed in that direction.

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» RE: Autodidact Posted by: stvotaw
» RE: Autodidact Posted by: NoPCZone

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Questioning in School may Get You a Failing Grade in Life
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Posted by: blimpBoy on May 2, 2007 10:48 AM   
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Failing to conform, obey and adhere to expectations of college brass practically guarantees a life of penury for graduates not connected to various conformist organizations, fraternities/sororities/clubs/societies like (Greeks, Boule, Etc.) that help re-affirm the status quo.

I graduated from a prestigious University on the East Coast with Highest Honors (Summa Cum Laude), along with National and International Certificates of Merit, Golden Key Honor Society Status, Highest Academic recognition awards from my department (Sociology with a Track in Science…yes, physiology, chemistry, physics, calculus, etc), a Presidents’s Scholar of Merit and placement in several publications recognizing academically gifted students.

In fact, I have academic recognition coming out the ass! On paper, I seem like a topnotch candidate destined to reach untapped potential while earning opportunities to positively impact something. But that ain't happening!

My “mistake” is I am a non-white male, who began meekly questioning the status quo while attending school both as an undergraduate and graduate student.

Although unwritten in some hegemonic manuals, a bright male of color in the 21st century who questions too much or seems too intelligent (uppidty during Crow) appears overly dangerous, rebellious and threatening to most folks regardless of their race.

This is the Land of the free right? Or must one stay in his place?

Furthermore, two other gifted students in my graduating class (my associates) received full scholarships to graduate school[s]. Congrats to them for they will be debt free while I chug around a $60,000 debt at 4.5%. Currently, I do not attend school due to economic reasons (a mind is a terrible thing to waste...yeah, OK!), but don't bring out the violins, I have toughened skin and I have matured enough to overcome most of the bitterness I had.

I could not even get into a (Physician Assistant Studies Program) requiring only a 2.5 GPA because my honesty in the application from CAPSA created a stir in the admissions department.

The take home message is if someone is academically gifted---especially if they are non-white--- inquisitive, unwilling to join organizations that defile personal principals, and less eager to play the “game,” he or she should be prepared for a life of penury or blacklisting---fortunately, it is then that the real-world learning starts…the stuff school never prepared us for.

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» whiny sociology majors... Posted by: Phenix

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davy
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Posted by: davy on May 2, 2007 10:52 AM   
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ON THE MONEY

As an X pat with 2 degrees from american universities I can say, you are so on the money. What a heap. After 60 years on the ol planet I can see no correlation between degrees and intelligence. Especially now considering the cost. I guess only those who can afford university are smart enough anyway. Sheeeeesh

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Well OF COURSE they had to fire her!
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Posted by: WitchyNy on May 2, 2007 10:58 AM   
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Can't be showing the people that someone WITHOUT a College Degree can do just as good a job as someone WITH one, can we?

What did the Wizzard of Oz say? "You don't need a brain-all you need is a College Diploma".

Or as one of my old Professors once said to me..."your problem is, you think you are here to get an education".

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Now I’m being threatened.
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Posted by: HughScott on May 2, 2007 11:08 AM   
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Here’s what apophenia_monkey wrote in response to my 10-question test:

“hey, my generation has more sense than yours to not believe everything in their in-box and then post it AS FACT.

as far as my GPS--i engineer network protocols, so my GPS can not only find the nearest gas station, it can also find the nearest old person's home and their internet connexion.

more still, not only can i 0wn your blog, i can do it from any wireless connexion and leave you completely clueless who turned your website into a pro-GW site.

so, as far as lighten up, sure, i'll do so when you stop posting misinformation and loose the sanctimonious old codger tude.

you continue at your *own* risk.”

End of apophenia_monkey’s rubuttal.

Notice that Apophenia misspelled “connection” twice. I rest my case about the dumbing down of America.

Finally, will he violate my right of free speech by hacking into King-George.biz?

I wouldn't be surprised. If Apophenia does mess with my website, a retired FBI agent buddy of mine will be the first one know. I'm pretty sure he can find out who "Apophenia" is.

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» Get over yourself Posted by: Ayla87

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My experience may be different, but I disagree...
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Posted by: olderworker on May 2, 2007 12:08 PM   
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Even though I come from a lower middle-class family, thus had to pay my own way through college and two graduate programs (I have an MSW and an MBA), I think I really learned a lot from those educational programs. I am definitely not happy about having to make the school loan payments each month, but I do perceive a difference in my worldview and that of many of my co-workers. (I work in a nursing home, so interact with cleaning staff and nursing assistants, who generally only hold high school diplomas). I am pleased to have been exposed to a lot of different subjects in college and grad school in which I otherwise would never have taken any interest. Economics, Statistics, and Classical literature are three such subjects. Yes, I wish education were cheaper and maybe briefer, but I do think it makes a difference beyond "learning to look awake" at meetings and the like.

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Oversimplified Article
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Posted by: Gravitas on May 2, 2007 12:10 PM   
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Oversimplified article that rambles a bit. College does not necessarily encourage conformity. That depends entirely on the major, instructor, and college itself. She may have a point college is becoming way too expensive. But the solution is to make it more affordable, not just whine about it. Of course, it is interesting to note this woman who complains about conformity mentions being repulsed or disgusted or some such thing by watching plus sized shoppers at Wal Mart. What does not prove? That her conventional weight prejudices are a product of HER college education.

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makes me sad..
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Posted by: Drclaw on May 2, 2007 12:04 PM   
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as a college prof, I probably am biased here, but I'll wade in anyway. Many of us are quite aware of many of the problems identified in the article and posts-rigidity, conformity, lack of critical thinking. It is true also that some of us are not, and many of us fight daily to make the college experience one of growth and not restriction. I'm saddened to see a lot of bitterness out there on people's experience with college, or college graduates. I try hard to prepare my students for the real world (even though I am not teaching a "marketable" subject), and more importantly, to think critically. Facts are important, but perhaps the least of the things that we should transmit to our students. Many of my colleagues share this view, and I hope those of you with less favorable impressions of the process don't throw the baby out with the bath water. On the other hand, I run into a lot of students who would rather I not do this, prefer multiple choice exams, attendence grades and tests involving a littany of facts as opposed to probing their ability to solve problems with logic and creativity (sadly, these students often go to medical school and can be quite succesful there). So, the next time you meet one of those people, try to keep in mind that it might not be their college experience that has made them so. I think we have a larger problem on our hands, and often spend a lot of time decontructing students before they get what I am trying to do. Finally, let me add that the problem is resource based. Yes, tuition is quite expensive in many places-more so now because state and federal support for education is at an all time low. Its quite hard to teach properly when you have too many students. I had 115 last semester, and each student wrote 3 (7-10 page) papers, and the 3 tests were essay based. It near killed me, since I must also continue to advise graduate students, serve on committees, help student organizations and fund my research. We really need your help here..

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ya want to hear something interesting?
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Posted by: rightisright on May 2, 2007 12:21 PM   
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Why can't people on the Left, and on the Alternet site in particular, discuss ANYTHING without politicizing it? This was a perfectly cogent, thoughtful, and interesting article. It had absolutely nothing to do with politics or, more specifically, the government. And yet, even though it was completely unrelated, the writer absolutely could not keep herself from taking a gratuitous and completely unnecessary swipe at President Bush: "lying is a grievous sin, as everyone outside of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue knows". Totally uncalled for, and totally unnecessary to make her point. Pathetic.

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..one more thing
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Posted by: Drclaw on May 2, 2007 12:54 PM   
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I've been turning the article over in my head, since something has been bothering me about it, or at least, some of what's been taken as an implied meaning. It seems like the presumption is that because this woman was fired, then the degree acted as a gatekeeper. Although that is true in many situations (and we can debate the meaninfulness of this criteron in specific cases), it's not clear that this was the case here. Perhaps she would have been hired without the degree as many of the other posters have related in their own stories. Second, the firing seems to me to be totally appropriate. Yes she was doing a great job, but she also misrepresented herself and didn't correct things. From this perspective alone, MIT needed to do what they did, otherwise they condone cheating when it is successful. Once we believe that the ends justify the means, we are well and truly F*cked, IMHO.

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» RE: ..one more thing Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar

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Interested
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Posted by: stvotaw on May 2, 2007 1:07 PM   
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Is a college degree really a sign of competence? Yes, that you can work well within a college environment. A college environment has not one thing to do with the real world. A college is by definition conservative, promotes institutionalized education, resists any challenges, and does not chance unless money is involved.

Or is it chiefly a signal to employers that you've mastered the ability to obey and conform? From the various companies I have been associated with a degree is only one variable considered in hiring. Qualifying for a job should only be about skill matching and experience. Those who do not understand specific job functionality use the degree ticket to reject resumes without a degree. This is based upon their own bias towards education versus experience and knowledge of a job.

Schools taught me how to segment people into stigmatized groups. School stress passing and failing, top half, bottom half, above average, below average, A students, B students, C students, D students and naturally dropouts. If schools had their way there would have been no Einstein, Gates, Churchill, Lewis & Clark, and Franklin. The people I have just mentioned have changed the world the last 350 years. If you check into what schools thought of these individuals you will find all about the educational problems they had.

I have a BS from an advanced institution, made the deans list, and graduated in less than four years. What I learned in Boy Scouts helped me work at top levels around the world on billion dollar projects, nothing in school helped. True education is lacking at all levels in school.

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Schools are conservative institutions
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on May 2, 2007 1:19 PM   
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Of course it's about conformity. They aren't called "courses" for nothing. You stay safely on the standard track - prescribed by someone who conformed years earlier sufficiently enough to established thinking to be called a professor - until the end of the semester, and then you get your credits towards a degree.

But it's not entirely a bad system, unless the expectation is that it'll rate people according to their ability to do some job (or not), in which case one is of course likely to be disappointed because that's not its purpose.

Schools are mainly in the business of processing people (as opposed to other raw materials like iron ore) and any education or learning which takes place in one is somewhat incidental to the purposes of the institution itself, which is to look after its own survival. As the saying goes, "an education is free - it's schools that cost money". Being in school can easily make it virtually impossible to get or give an education.

There's a reason very few of the best writers or artists are on the faculties of any namebrand university, and it's been that way for a long time. Anyone with a genuinely new idea or perspective on things will be run out of town on a rail long before they have the opportunity to do something as dangerous as possibly threaten the status quo with unauthorized thinking. So, yes, orthodoxy and groupthink are rewarded much more than their opposite, in spite of the rhetorical hype. Again, for lots of people the former things are actually something of an improvement, as difficult as this is to believe.

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School IS a political institution
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on May 2, 2007 1:35 PM   
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I think that as long as society is oriented toward power and profit the function of education will always be to select and reward those who will apply their talents without scruple to this end and to weed out those who might cause problems. For those without even much prospect for primary education: hard labor or prison. (Admitting exceptions, I think this charaterization is valid in general.)

I would highly reccomend John Dewey's writings on education to anyone interested in a constructive alternative.

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Wait...
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Posted by: Johnd2 on May 2, 2007 1:46 PM   
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you mean there are stupid people who went to college along with stupid people who didn't? NO! Seriously, great way to waste everyone's time and provide a cathartic outlet for dropouts.

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Diploma Mills
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Posted by: TWilliams on May 2, 2007 2:31 PM   
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So many universities are diploma mills. Some schools, in a drive to raise grades, forbid professors to give F's. People complain about standardized testing but how else are you going to prove someone is as intelligent as their grades are? I was amazed when I was an undergraduate tutor an the students I had to bring up to speed lacks BASIC math and writing skills. Most of them are freshly minted graduates working at Wal Mart. It serves them right ;o)

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» Good for you Posted by: ateo

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A new twist - looks like a feminist hatchet job after all
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on May 2, 2007 3:19 PM   
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See this article from the January 2007 Chronicle of Higher Education, called "The New Gender Divide", in which Jones is quoted (pg 2) while talking about the boy crisis in higher education:

The gender differential is not lost on parents. Marilee Jones, dean of admissions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, hears about it each time she gives a talk to parents about the college admissions process. "The No. 1 complaint is that their sons are not on top of the process, they're not dedicated, they just don't have their act together compared to the daughters," says Ms. Jones.

The dean considers herself a feminist, and believes that schools, colleges, and other institutions have wisely created more opportunities for girls. But those efforts have thrown off the traditional gender balance between males and females, she says.

Girls, says Ms. Jones, "are expected to be fun, well-mannered, pretty, and thin, but they're also expected to be leaders and athletes and dynamic decision makers." What roles does that leave for boys?

"A lot of boys can be kind of lost," she says. "I think the needs of boys are being neglected."

Elementary, middle, and high schools, for example, are designed for girls, she says. Students are expected to sit quietly at their desks, and teachers stress skills that require fine motor control — something that boys typically have in shorter supply. Boys, say other experts, are more likely than girls to be medicated for hyperactivity, to be disciplined by teachers, and to drop out of school.

Such wrong-thinking is obviously heresy to any Feminist Studies type and must be promptly and severely punished.

So, yes, it's about conformity, just perhaps not in the way Ehrenreich would have us think. It'll be interesting to see if the identity of the tipster turns up to confirm this hypothesis, but at the very least the timing of the article and firing are quite suspicious and suggest a direct link.

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Gravity Bongs and Memorization . . .
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Posted by: MAD on May 2, 2007 5:27 PM   
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That is precisely what I got out of college - all 7.5 years of it. There is not much you can't learn on the job but higher education is BIG BUSINESS folks. The University of R&D is what counts these days. Liberal Arts students are there to fund budding Brauns' research into new optical electronics and guidance systems. I don't regret going as I had the time of my life and certainly learned more outside the hallowed halls of academia than in them.

It didn't hurt that I settled for a pretty average state university that was quite affordable. Rather than spring for two very pricey schools that accepted me (U of Michigan and U of Chicago), I went to the "inferior" state school and excelled by sheer memorization through cram sessions. I would ace the test and graduated with a 3.8 having spent the vast majority of that time stoned out of my gourd. I learned very little in school mostly because I was skeptical of the formulaic crap they were trying to cram down my throat anyway. And those F'ing Group Projects!! Damn I hated that shit! Doesn't matter much anyway. I have a Masters and am no longer ahead of the curve. My degree is so much toilet paper and I remain underemployed. Oh well, say hello to the rest of your life.

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» RE: Gravity Bongs and Memorization . . . Posted by: albrechtkrausse

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Regarding my 10 questions from the "fake" 1895 eighth-grade final exam.
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Posted by: HughScott on May 2, 2007 6:12 PM   
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The questions were taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society & Library in Salina, KS, and reprinted by the Salina Journal. I have a copy.

If the Journal perpetuated a hoax, then so be it. In hindsight, to make my point about the dumbing down of America, I should've suggested everyone watch "Jaywalk" on NBC's Jay Leno show to understand how much.

One more thing. The CIA can water-board me all it wants but I will NEVER admit how many of the 10 questions I couldn't answer. But then, I'm an old person about to start wearing Depends.

Cheers, Hugh

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Dropping some science
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Posted by: doctorsquared on May 2, 2007 7:40 PM   
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Advanced education in the sciences, mathematics and engineering is somewhat different than the stereotypes about universities espoused in many comments on this thread. As a general rule (always with the rare exception of, say, the guy who wrote his thesis on his labmates' work and somehow bluffed his way past the defense) it's not a simple matter to get enough work done to convince a panel of stodgy science professors that you should be added to the relatively short list of persons with Philosophiæ Doctor after their names.

After the process, the PhD has, almost by default during the degree process, developed the ability to formulate and solve problems (to varying degrees, of course, depending on the graduate). Most of the PhD's in my class and the years surrounding it ended up either in tenure-track research professorships (after one or more postdoctoral research fellowships) or in R&D positions in such industries as energy, electrical engineering, pharmaceuticals, or at national laboratories (Berkeley, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, etc.). These folks end up designing your hybrid car's engine, or your digital camera's diode array, or the catheter used to stent the coronary artery you clogged with decades of Big Macs, and so on.

The problem is that science and engineering (and by this I mean the real nuts and bolts of it, the differential equations, the experiments, the mathematical modeling) are so far removed from the consciousness of the average person, that he cannot possibly understand the importance of maintaining quality higher education, as it tends to directly benefit only the most talented individuals. The vast majority of students do, indeed, end up being trained worker bees who never develop anything original or contribute to human knowledge directly. It is only via the implementation of the ideas of the very talented, usually nameless minority (which requires the efforts of the majority of educated drones and the working class as well), that the benefits are seen by the masses.

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» Science is but a tool Posted by: doctorsquared
» disambiguation......... Posted by: ekipnrut

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Students = Consumers
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Posted by: babalucci on May 2, 2007 7:55 PM   
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The problem with higher education is that it is a business. They have to tell you that you'll be more hireable to get you to pay. And you have to be GIVEN good grades to be more hireable. Most universities should be called vocational institutions. But that was what my students wanted--courses that would prepare them for the workplace, not courses that prepared them to think. And in the end, they are the consumers.

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This illustrates something I have believed for a long time now prefectly!
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Posted by: ateo on May 2, 2007 10:10 PM   
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College degrees mean nothing! Lying is not a bad thing, it is simply playing the game. Being "honest" is what gets you 7 dollars an hour at Wal-mart and put on welfare. Higher education is simply a way to exclude low income people from upward economic mobility. You think college loans are enough? Yea, let me point you in the direction of the MANY people I met at the Ft. Meade military entrance processing station who had tried to work (to cover living expenses) their way through college with student loans (to cover tuition), failed, and ended up joining the Army - HAPPY TO JOIN THE ARMY, because the civilian world had placed them in impossible situations. Yes, some people can make it in these situations but the vast majority have significant family support. For those without family money the only safety net is the U.S. military.

Look at all the successful people who get caught lying, cheating, stealing in America. CEO's, politicians, important figures in academia, presidents. What that tells me is that in order to "play the game" in America you've got to read between the lines to learn the unwritten rules as well as those that are obvious. It might be obvious that honesty is the best policy, but what you understand if you look deeper is that lying often gives one an advantage over those who are "honest."

So what's better, an honest life of abject poverty, or a dishonest life of luxury and comfort? Doesn't seem like a hard choice to me. You must do everything possible to further your career and earn money in the U.S. while maintaining a facade of honesty.

In America you can die in the streets and nobody will care. Or you can lie about credentials you don't have an get a high paying job with health insurance and live a nice comfortable middle class life. That's the reality of this people, nothing short of survival is at stake.

I applaud this woman and anyone else who will do what it takes to survive and thrive in a country as ruthless as the United States. I've been making comments like this on alternet for a while now, telling people that they should lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead in the U.S. Can't get a good job? Lie until you can then bust your ass doing it as best you can. Odds are you will be successful and after a few years you'll no longer have to lie because you will have real experience and real credentials.

The whole power structure and obsession with honesty and fairness is in place to keep all of us subjugated to our social "betters." Break away from the chains that society, which is ruled from the top, has placed on you - limiting your potential.

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I think it's less of a conspiracy and more of a fear
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Posted by: April_ on May 3, 2007 10:50 AM   
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I was sad to hear that Marilee Jones lost her job for that particular lie. I don't think other lies would have cost her her job.

Racket or Fear?
I think it is a racket to presume that you can only learn skills and knowledge via a college education. However, I don't think employers are hiring people with college educations because they want conformity. I think it's because they are afraid of making a mistake when they hire someone, and a college degree is familiar to them. They probably went to college and know what it takes to get a degree and it gives them some confidence in the person's abilities.

Measurable skills
I think a great solution to the problem of uncertainty about skills would be to have a set of standards - skill sets that are measurable - that way people could prove to employers that they have those skills and college is just one way to get them.

On the other hand, many jobs are mostly on the job learning and I think college does illustrate the ability to learn.

Are Universities improving?
I've seen university accreditation organizations emphasizing measurable learning objectives lately. This means they understand the need to provide measurable value to their customers- the students. With learning objectives you tell students- this is what you will be able to DO when you leave this class that you couldn't do before.

Research, wisdom, and life skills
There are things that could be improved about the university system, but it's also a great system for passing on wisdom and adding wisdom through research.

I wouldn't have missed my college experience for anything, but I would also like to have the skills I've gained in other ways be equally acknowledged and just as valued.

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Not a particularly informed article
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Posted by: dkm on May 3, 2007 12:06 PM   
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One of the posters mentioned that the school and department had a lot to do with one's conforming or not, not whether one had a degree per se. This is so obvious that it should have been the first thing mentioned in the article. I promise you that I graduated from college a LOT more likely to question authority than when I graduated from high school. Being exposed to such a wide variety of people from so many different backgrounds broadens your viewpoints and changes your attitudes (in general, now) much more than the relatively homogenous high schools that most people attend.

Caveat: Some colleges, particularly the small religious schools, do not fit this description as they are more homogenous than your average public high school, and there are some people who were raised to be so closedminded that exposure to differences just intensifies and reinforces their closedmindedness.

The example given of the tremendously capable woman who falsified her educational background on her resume falls into a common trap of using an outlier as a typical example. While this woman was good at what she did, how many people who fudge their resumes can claim the same? I could give a counterexample of my ex who claimed to have taken courses at a university that was shut down by student protests at the time. She used these pseudocourses to get her teaching certificate and has not exactly covered herself with glory ever since. Another example of how higher education broadens your perspective is to compare my high school classmates who went on to college with those who didn't. In general, those with high school educations accept the propaganda that spews forth from Fox entertainment concerning cultures that they have never experienced, while those who have seen a broader picture of the world, are better able to understand how the world works and to function in it.

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colleges and colleges
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Posted by: sweet_byrd on May 3, 2007 5:46 PM   
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I have always wondered at the extremely common use of the term "college" to describe every higher educational experience from attending a gigantic state land-grant university to a historically founded university to a small liberal arts college. We need to delve further to get to any real meaning -- what kind of college, what educational emphases, who are the faculty, what size is it, what are the expectations of the faculty and the students? The word "college" encompasses a plethora of possibilities.

For the record, I have attended all three of the types of college I listed above -- and each was a very unique experience.

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YOU GET WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT
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Posted by: hurshy43 on May 4, 2007 5:18 AM   
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COLLEGE IS JUST LIKE ANYTHING ELSE YOU DO. YOU GET OUT WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT. PEOPLE CAN NOT LOOK AT EDUCATION AS LEARNING HOW TO DO WHATEVER YOUR MAGER MIGHT BE. YOU DON'T GET A BUSINESS DEGREE TO LEARN HOW TO CONDUCT BUSINESS, YOU DO IT TO PROVE YOU HAVE THE TECHNICAL SKILLS TO DO SO, YOU KNOW HOW TO STUDY A PROBLEM THEN SOLVE IT OR TO DESIGN A SYSTEM THAT HELPS YOU AVOID PROBLEMS. YOU LEARN TO DO RESEARCH, SHOW YOU CAN COMPLETE A PROJECT OR IMPLEMENT A PLAN. A LOT OF THINGS PEOPLE GO TO COLLEGE FOR MAYBE WOULDN'T REQUIRE A DEGREE BUT WHAT HOSPITAL WANTS A NURSE JUST BECAUSE THEY KNOW HOW TO STICK A NEEDLE INTO YOU AND TAKE A TEMPERATURE.

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Lazy managers and personnel departments
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on May 4, 2007 1:43 PM   
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Part of the problem of useless degree requirements is based on the laziness of managers and personnel departments. Degree and "experience" requirements are often used as a substitute for doing a valid analysis of what it takes to do a particular job.

One thing a degree requirement does is to "date" the applicant so that older workers can be eliminated, often because the manager doesn't want someone in a subordinate position that actually knows more than they do. At this point in time Corporate America is actually dumbing down its own work force.

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