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Why I Am Not a Moderate Muslim

By Asma Khalid, Christian Science Monitor. Posted April 28, 2007.


I'd rather be considered "orthodox" than "moderate." True orthodoxy is simply the attempt to piously adhere to a religion's tenets.

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Last month, three Muslim men were arrested in Britain in connection with the London bombings of July 2005. In light of such situations, a number of non-Muslims and Muslims alike yearn for "moderate," peace-loving Muslims to speak out against the violent acts sometimes perpetrated in the name of Islam. And to avoid association with terrorism, some Muslims adopt a "moderate" label to describe themselves.

I am a Muslim who embraces peace. But, if we must attach stereotypical tags, I'd rather be considered "orthodox" than "moderate."

"Moderate" implies that Muslims who are more orthodox are somehow backward and violent. And in our current cultural climate, progress and peace are restricted to "moderate" Muslims. To be a "moderate" Muslim is to be a "good," malleable Muslim in the eyes of Western society.

I recently attended a debate about Western liberalism and Islam at the University of Cambridge where I'm pursuing my master's degree. I expected debaters on one side to present a bigoted laundry list of complaints against Islam and its alleged incompatibility with liberalism, and they did.

But what was more disturbing was that those on the other side, in theory supported the harmony of Islam and Western liberalism, but they based their argument on spurious terms. While these debaters - including a former top government official and a Nobel peace prize winner - were well-intentioned, they in fact wrought more harm than good. Through implied references to moderate Muslims, they offered a simplistic, paternalistic discourse that suggested Muslims would one day catch up with Western civilization.

In the aftermath of September 11, much has been said about the need for "moderate Muslims." But to be a "moderate" Muslim also implies that Osama bin Laden and Co. must represent the pinnacle of orthodoxy; that a criterion of orthodox Islam somehow inherently entails violence; and, consequently, that if I espouse peace, I am not adhering to my full religious duties.

I refuse to live as a "moderate" Muslim if its side effect is an unintentional admission that suicide bombing is a religious obligation for the orthodox faithful. True orthodoxy is simply the attempt to adhere piously to a religion's tenets.

The public relations drive for "moderate Islam" is injurious to the entire international community. It may provisionally ease the pain when so-called Islamic extremists strike. But it really creates deeper wounds that will require thicker bandages because it indirectly labels the entire religion of Islam as violent.

The term moderate Muslim is actually a redundancy. In the Islamic tradition, the concept of the "middle way" is central. Muslims believe that Islam is a path of intrinsic moderation, wasatiyya. This concept is the namesake of a British Muslim grass-roots organization, the Radical Middle Way. It is an initiative to counter Islam's violent reputation with factual scholarship.

This was demonstrated through a day-long conference that the organization sponsored in February. The best speaker of the night was Abdallah bin Bayyah, an elderly Mauritanian sheikh dressed all in traditional white Arab garb, offset by a long gray beard.

The words coming out of the sheikh's mouth - all in Arabic - were remarkably progressive. He confronted inaccurate assumptions about Islam, spoke of tolerance, and told fellow Muslims an unúpleasant truth: "Perhaps much of this current crisis springs from us," he said, kindly admonishing them. He chastised Muslims for inadequately explaining their beliefs, thereby letting other, illiberal voices speak for them.

I was shocked by his blunt though nuanced analysis, given his traditional, religious appearance. And then I was troubled by my shock. To what extent had I, a hijabi Muslim woman studying Middle Eastern/Islamic studies, internalized the untruthful representations of my own fellow Muslims? For far too long, I had been fed a false snapshot of what Islamic orthodoxy really means.

The sheikh continued, challenging Mr. bin Laden's violent interpretation of jihad, citing Koranic verses and prophetic narrations. He referred to jihad as any "good action" and recounted a recent conversation with a non-Muslim lawyer who asked if electing a respectable official would be considered jihad. The sheikh answered "yes" because voting for someone who supports the truth and upholds justice is a good action.

The sheikh, not bin Laden, is a depiction of true Islamic orthodoxy. The sheikh, not bin Laden, is the man trained in Islamic jurisprudence. The sheikh, not bin Laden, is the authentic religious scholar. But to call him a moderate Muslim would be a misnomer.

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Asma Khalid is pursuing her master's degree in Middle Eastern/Islamic studies at the University of Cambridge in England.

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Islam IS the problem
Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 28, 2007 12:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no such thing as moderate islam nor will there ever be a peace between those who adhere to the faith and our free-living ways in the west. We need to stop kidding ourselves and stop mass migration of muslims into western Europe and North America. They are and will remain a highly destabilising force.

Let's re-cap on what we have suffered and lost in the past six years because of them: the introduction of a costly security and surveillance culture for everything just to stay safe, war all over the world, devastating attacks on civilians in cities around the world (check www.religionofpeace.com), riots in once-peaceful countries like Sweden and Denmark, inner city no-go areas in France and the UK, billions and billions spent on all these wars and security measures in order to keep the global economy functioning.

Most journalists are now afraid to speak out honestly about what islam is doing because of the very real threat of death and intimidation. People like Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji get daily death threats and must be protected by bodyguards 24/7. And that's in supposedly safe western countries.

If you ask me, that is a lot to give up for in return compliance in the programme to increase muslim migration into the west. A pretty rotton deal and I have to pinch myself everyday to even be reminded of how nuts it all is and how much we have just accepted this as 'normal'.

No other migrant group has cost so much in blood and treasure to facilitate their entrance in the great immigration dream.

Now let's review today's threats: we have been told by muslims that we are in the last chance saloon to repent or face destruction, that we will experience a 'Hiroshima' soon, that we must allow sharia law in our countries. None of this has to be accepted. Just to recap for all the feminists out there, if you think you can live with this faith just look at wha is happening to women in Iran right now: religious police are rounding them up and punishing them for not wearing head scarves forward enough on their heads. Kind of makes Rush Limbaugh look like a gentle buffoon doesn't?

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» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: schokoprinz
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: Perfectclue
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: Sobaka120
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: otto
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: ISlamIslam
» Idiocy IS the problem Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Idiocy IS the problem Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: chomsky
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: schokoprinz
» No! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Christians ARE the problem Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: Sobaka120
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: enzomedici
» sound familiar? Posted by: schokoprinz
» Bad comparison Posted by: Bobsays
» Propagandized robot mind. Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: douglashoyt
» Lazy numbers Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Islam IS the problem Posted by: tiffanybrown76
Why I don't believe in magic sky monsters that live on clouds
Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 28, 2007 1:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not 6.

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hah, correction
Posted by: schokoprinz on Apr 28, 2007 2:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"importance" in reference to allah, not important. heh

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Nazis had Jews, we have Muslims.
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 28, 2007 3:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Six million men, women, children and old people of Hebrew ancestry died in the Holocaust because they were perceived as a threat by Hitler. Now, because of 9/11, the same racial bias against Muslims has infected America.

To make my point, let me take you back to the start of Gulf War 2.

On April 7, 2003, under standing orders from George W., a B1 bomber carried out a decapitation strike on a Baghdad restaurant where Saddam Hussein was eating a late lunch. Reportedly.

Shortly after the mission began, the Ace of Spades, suspecting he had been betrayed by someone on his staff, slipped out of the al-Sa’ah restaurant’s backdoor and fled the scene. Ten minutes later, four 2,000-pound bunker busters dropped by the diverted bomber blew the suburban eatery to bits along with cooks, waiters, bus boys, customers, cashier, pedestrians passing by and the occupants of three nearby homes.

Fourteen civilians died in that Baghdad neighborhood on April 7, people who lost their lives simply for being there, including two young children. Yet back in the United States, few Americans protested the barbaric aspect of the B1 mission, not on TV or in the press anyway. Quite the contrary, there was glorification of Bush’s decision to “take out Saddam,” as so many in his administration enjoyed saying.

Does any clear-thinking American believe the bombing mission would have been executed had the 14 people been blue-eyed Christians instead of brown-eyed Muslims? Of course not.

As an addendum to the atrocity, in 2004 I watched Dub-ya on CNN. He was in the Oval Office answering questions about a retaliatory air assault against Syria by Israeli jets. The reason for the revenge mission was a Hamas suicide bombing of a crowded Jewish eating establishment that killed 20 people.

When asked by a White House reporter if the Israeli raid was justified, Bush glowered and replied sternly, “When Hamas blows up a restaurant with civilians inside, that’s terrorism.”

I kid you not. I heard him say that with my own ears. Those were the exact words spoken by George bin Laden.

To illustrate the extent of Bush’s born-again hypocrisy, read what he said to a group of Iraqi women meeting with him in the White House, as published by its official website on November 17, 2003.

“We’re seeing the nature of Al Qaeda. They’ll kill innocent people anywhere, any time. That’s just the way they are. They have no regard for human life. They claim they’re religious people, but they’re not. Religious people do not murder innocent citizens.”

Dub-ya’s in-your-face theology is one reason why Muslims hate Americans so much. His arrogance shows contempt for non-Christian people, one of the great dangers of commingling politics and religion. The president apparently believes in the name of Jesus he had every right to blow up the al-Sa’ah restaurant and kill (murder) 14 civilians to nail Saddam Hussein.

Conversely, when Muslim insurgents explode a car bomb in Baghdad, he condemns them as godless thugs. Sociologists call that kind of myopic belief system “ethnocentrism,” meaning an emotional attitude that one’s own ethnic group, nation or culture is superior to all others. It is the bedrock of fascism, not freedom.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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» RE: This is a repulsive comparison Posted by: Perfectclue
» RE: This is a repulsive comparison Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» you're a repulsive American Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: you're a repulsive American Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: you're a repulsive American Posted by: bornxeyed
» Our gov't demonized Russians for 70 years Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» excellent post! Posted by: thoughtcriminal
"Moderate" is a compliment, you know
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Apr 28, 2007 4:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a better article than I feared at first, but methinks she doth protest too much. I see what she's driving at, and possibly "orthodox" will catch on... although in a Christian culture it makes me think of the Byzantine big hats & icons.

But it seems that our home-grown Christians that we call "liberal" have the same problem. The modifiers "liberal," "moderate," "middle way" etc. imply to most of us Alternet types that the person (thank God!) doesn't take the religion TOO seriously. Our use of such a modifier is intended as a compliment. If some believers resentfully refuse to take it as one, screw them.

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Unity 2
Posted by: Perfectclue on Apr 28, 2007 4:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The search for principles of morality and logic, whether in secular clothes ore religious ones, must address several issues, because other arguments, themselves principles tend to counter the overall goal of balance and reason. The first thing to recognize, by Asma Khalid, her argument for orthodoxy, is that all moral, logical frameworks have two components, their distorted historical baggage, and the existence of a universal underlying center. It is the latter argument, which Khalid bases her argument for orthodoxy.

The argument, for orthodoxy is the argument that if all secular or religious ideologies had found a shared universal moral, and logical center, it would be in fact the revolutionary center, that would in fact, be both at once, radical yet the new orthodox, conservative, conserving center, having discovered where and how such a principle exists, and can be reconstructed, made dynamic, adjusting, to the historical forms and changes, without falling into the trap of dogma, narrowminded limits, where exclusionary principles start the rot, where once inclusionary principles stood of revolutionary ideals, whether in religion or secular movements.

Asma Khalid is absolutely correct to point out the snobbery of Western class, secular hypocrisy, because Western Enlightenment failed, was betrayed by the exclusionary double standards, class standards, of commercial capitalism, and its class liberals, where once revolutionary, secular principles of Reason stood, with its inclusionary principles of freedom, liberty based on an inter-national link of nation states as the means to socialize the principle of morality, logic and wealth, via a universal middle class, without masters above and exploited classes below. Therefore Asma Khalid and most of the third world, Islamic or otherwise, has the right to point out the hypocrisy of Western imperialism, fascism, racism against Arabs, the by product of class nationalism, class imperialism, instead of universal social nation states where no such class despotism, class tyranny rules, either within, through class hierarchies, as class societies, or through class external hierarchies, western class domination through colonial and post colonial economic blackmail and ideological hypocrisy.

However this explanation, where the source of corruption, class corruption resides, via its exclusionary double standards, class standards, also applies as part of the historical baggage, which Islamic countries share, with Western class societies, namely its class societies, Patriarchy, that still betray through the same principle of exclusion, although in more traditional, feudal garb, the baggage of male domination over women, children, is still property rights over inclusionary principles of inherent human rights. Asama Khalid must show, like all secular and religious ideologies, how universal tendencies, must be extended to overcome the limited class despotism, patriarchy that exists in all fundamental religions, but even if she were an atheist, would still have to do the same for secular ideas, themselves party to this social rot, class standards and exclusionary hypocrisy.

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The Only Good Orthodox Muslim(or Jew) Is A Former-Muslim or Jew
Posted by: edith on Apr 28, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as Islam, like most forms of Christianity, purports to teach the Truth to beleivers, with non-believers at best ignorants of the Truth and at worst opponents of the Truth, wars will rage over the natural desire of religion to expand at the expense of non-believers.

In the case of Judaism, weakened by the massacres of the Holocaust, it merged most of its religious branches seamlessly into Zionism after WWII. Now Zionism clashes with Isalm. The clashes reinvigorate both forms of ignorant belief. For religion to grow more powerful, it must feed on the blood of nonbelievers. Islam is the prime example of that today, with Zionism's expansion in the Middle East another gory exhibit.

Most Protestant and Roman Catholic churches, having embraced "peace" with other religions, are dying. However as many have noted here, militant conservative Christianity expands in the US and in Latin America, to the detriment of freedom and tolerance in those countries.

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why bother?
Posted by: EasterBunny on Apr 28, 2007 5:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
why any educated person, as Ms. Khalid seems to be, would choose to define her life in terms of some ridiculous medieval belief system is beyond me. radical, moderate, who cares? it's all baloney.

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» RE: why bother? Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: why bother? Posted by: EasterBunny
otto
Posted by: otto on Apr 28, 2007 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excellent insight! It never struck me before that to even use the term "moderate Muslim" is a kind of racist slur. It implies that most Muslims must NOT be moderate. thanks!

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It's all hand-waving and semantics
Posted by: ISlamIslam on Apr 28, 2007 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Things are what they are, and calling them by another name doesn't change them. You can try to force high heels and an evening dress on this pig called Islam all you want, but it's still a pig. Islam is radical at its core, and there is no compromising with it. Islam needs to go.

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» YOU need to go. Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: YOU need to go. Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: YOU need to go. Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» More Like Every Couple of Hours... Posted by: grumble-bum
» You're A Mess. Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: You're A Mess. Posted by: ISlamIslam
Religions must go
Posted by: nosylae on Apr 28, 2007 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is the core of all wars. Why must any properly educated, self-respecting human being believe in the tooth-fairy, santa claus, Xenu, or any other crazy made up crap? What is this need to believe in a supernatural being? As long as there is God, g-d, gods, or Allah, there will be killing on this planet, period. End religion, end war.

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» Amen ;) Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: eligions must go Posted by: aonghus36
» OIL must go Posted by: Aussie Kim
On moderation
Posted by: BlueTigress on Apr 28, 2007 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the author and people who think like her don't seem to get is that when they talk about how Islam is all about moderation in all things and "jihad" is supposed to be the internal struggle within one's self to be the best you can be and then the crazies get people to blow themselves up and declare that someone should die because he wrote a book where one line is seen as blasphemous, Westerners can't be blamed for not really being able to tell who is truly representing Islam.

I would suggest that rather than saying to us "we're not like them, trust us" they should be telling the crazies "hey, knock it off". I have yet to see an explanation, good or otherwise, as to why there is no movement to rein in the violence that has anything approaching teeth. I realize that Islam is a heavily decentralized religion with no central supreme authority, but for anyone who doesn't want to be tarred with the brush of "Islam is a violent religion" they need to denounce the perpetrators of the violence long and loud and often in as many media outlets as possible. The voices need to represent as many different people as possible, male AND female. White, yellow, brown, black, pink, red, orange, I don't care.

I challenge all Muslims who despise the violence done in the name of Allah to step and start calling their brethren on it.

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» yes you are Posted by: EasterBunny
» LMAO Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: LMAO Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: LMAO Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: LMAO Posted by: bornxeyed
» typo Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: On moderation Posted by: bornxeyed
» Doing violence Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: On moderation Posted by: Aussie Kim
oldfreedomdude
Posted by: oldfreedomdude on Apr 28, 2007 7:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is not Islam, moderate or orthodox, it is US/Israeli illegal, immoral attacks on and occupation of Islamic countries. US and Israel are doing 10 time the terrorism of the Islamic fighters who are trying to resist US/Israeli imperialism. It is the US and Israeli that are constantly threatening everyone, and have now destroyed 3 countries in the Middle East, threatening to attack another for exercising its right to have a nuclear power industry, and establishing dozens of permant military bases to threaten the Soviet Union and China.

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» no it's islam too Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: no it's islam too Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: no it's islam too Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: no it's islam too Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: no it's islam too Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: no it's islam too Posted by: bornxeyed
THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 28, 2007 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All due respect, why would anyone feel the need to explain his/her deep religiosity? We cannot make major adjustments to the way we run our country to accomodate each new group that arrives here. We've done an outstanding job of accepting people. But each group must make some attempt to adjust to their new country. When you come to the great Melting Pot there has to be a willingness to "melt" a little. We are all the result of efforts to fit it. Thanks, ANNA

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Islam is misunderstood
Posted by: manyu on Apr 28, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Suicide,killing civilians,intolerance,and misogyny is not really Islam.Wearing of the veil came from Byzantine Christianity and adopted by Arabs.Mohammed did help with "woman's work" with no shame. He met his enemies,alone and unarmed,to negotiate peace. Instead of torturing and killing infidels like the Christians of his time, he let themlive with him and asked for protection of People of the Book,Christians and Jews.He had his first wife's cousin, a Christian, who declared Mohammed's first vision of Gabriel to be genuinely from God. He encouraged his followers to read the Bible. Sure, there are horrible things in Koran, so there is in the Bible that most ignore or not take seriously.
Much been said of Mohammed's last wife being underage.Byzantne Emperors have them, too. It was custom of those ages. His last wife became a leader in Islam. King David's last wife was also underage,see I Kings I.

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» RE: Islam is misunderstood Posted by: lulunw
» z Posted by: ifti
Hammamy
Posted by: Hammamy on Apr 28, 2007 7:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's great wakefulness.
However, still non-Muslims need to know, who is the Muslim; the Sunni, or thre Shiite, and why. Who has the right to define the rules and terms of Islam? especially if every Imam issues his own interpretation of any phrase related to the doctrine of Islam?.
Neither moderate nor secular Muslim is a Muslim.Muslim is the one who abides by the fundamentals of Islamm without amendment, otherwise it is then his doctrine, not the doctrine of God.
As orthodoxy is the right concept, that's the very of logic.Fundamentalism entirely conflicts with aggression under any terminology.
However, without defining the doctrine of Islam, Shiite, Sunni, or othewise , all claims remain a vicious circle of contention.
It would be fruitful and highly appreciated if Ms.Asma Khalid accepts debating the issue of orthodoxy.
E.M.El-Hammamy
elhammamy@gmail.com

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US created & nurtured radical Isalm to win Cold War
Posted by: tashi on Apr 28, 2007 8:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fat, ignorant americans need to stop watching TV.

Here's Bill Moyers documentary on how since the end of 2nd WW, US nurtured & supported radical radical islamists to win the Cold War:
Blame US

For the Limbaugh Zombies who troll around here. Check out the National Security Archives maintained by George Washington University, to see how it all comes back to US.

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American Feminism=Monica Lewinsky v. Muslim Feminism=Benazir Bhutto
Posted by: tashi on Apr 28, 2007 9:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Name the most famous woman in America who reached the highest Office in US? Monica Lewinsky (Until Nancy Pelosi became the Speaker)!

Name the most famous Pakistani woman who reached highest office in Pakistan? Benazir Bhutto, twice elected to become Prime Minister of Pakistan!

Limbaugh Zombies always bring up the plight of women in muslim countries. Although women everywhere, including US, are treated as 2nd class citizens, it is simply not as one-sided as depicted in US media:
Role of Muslim Women

The ill-treated of women in muslim countries occur generally in rural and/or tribal areas. Muslim women have become head of States (Bhutto, Khalida Zia, Hassena Wajid), and have held 2nd highest office as in Turkey by Tansu Ciller,fight pilots etc.

Ofcourse there is a long way to go in bringing equal rights for all women, but had US not meddled in muslim states by supporting right-wing & radical islamists regimes, things would be much better:

The first muslim woman to run for the highest political office since world war 2 is Miss Fatima Jinnah in Pakistan, who ran for the Presidency in 1965. She ran against the military dictator Ayub Khan who was supported by US (surprise, surprise!!). She would have won had their not been massive rigging:Fatima Jinnah

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» A lot better than what? Posted by: tashi
» RE: A lot better than what? Posted by: EasterBunny
At the end of the Day, all humans are Connected.
Posted by: leedavis546@msn.com on Apr 28, 2007 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I could speak to the lady who wrote this Articule, I would say that I am Christian, I am very sorry about the way Some So Called Christians, Attack you Religion. I believe that people Of faith, Muslims, Christians , even Jews, are being Used to further. the Goal of people who don't believe in the Existance of God,or even Heaven An Hell.There God Is money, they tell people what they want to hear, Words Like "you can have it all, you have Complete Control of your Life" they want us to believe that there is no down side, We don't have to worry About tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. Tomorrow Is here. And god had nothing do with the suffering we have Caused. and we must forgive each other. and take the steps needed to repair the Damage, that we have all been a part of.

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» ROFLMAO Posted by: EasterBunny
If you are Christian, I need an apology from you for Pat Robertson's fundamentalist actions
Posted by: sarahk on Apr 28, 2007 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I demand a personal apology from you for every violent act or belief caused or performed by every fundamentalist Christian around the world.
Here is just the start of the list:
- Eric Rudolf bombing an abortion clinic, killing one man and maiming one woman and planting additional bombs to harm the rescue workers that arrived
- Pat Robertson preaching that 9-11 was caused by Americans who are homosexual and/or have had abortions
- Pat Robertson preaching that the Katrina flood was caused because God wanted to punish New Orleans for having a large gay population
- My Christian pastor who said that white people should have dominion over the black, lower races
- The new KKK, who are proud to be Christian, and have gained lots of new members in the SouthEast
- In Atlanta, the Christian boys who attacked , beat and killed an illegal immigrant for fun
- My childhood church for preaching that girls shouldn't go to college. They should get married ASAP after high school.
- The bombing of black churches and homes by church-going white Christians resulting in numerous deaths throughout the South in the twentieth century.
- Timothy McVeigh, a home-grown Christian terrorist
- Hitler's Brownshirt boys, many of whom were sincere, church-going Christians, who wanted to bring Christian religion back into prominece in Germany as an anidote to the secular, jaded, debauched post-WW1 society
- Every Christian Serb who slaughtered and terrorized the Muslim Serbs with rape and concentration camps during the 1990's. Mass graves of Bosnian Muslims are still being uncovered.
- During the 70's and 80's, every Latin Amerian right-wing Christian para-military soldier who slaughtered indigenous Indian tribes in their country (most of whom followed their ancestors' non-Christian religion).
- In the early twentieth century, the Baptist and Protestant charities and schools that refused to care for and teach any Catholic person because they were not "Christian" enough. This is why the Catholics had to create their own system of help for their congregations.
- The Christian "charity" groups that prostelatize to people who are too desperate for help to refuse to listen.
- The early-parole programs for prisoners that are only for Born-again Christians. Buddists, Muslims and followers of Native American religions are out of luck along with Catholics (who are still not considered Christians by many Southern Baptists)

Start writing.

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» What Pat Robertson actually said about 9/11 Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Moderate is good because...
Posted by: tap17x on Apr 28, 2007 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...it's on the road from Orthodox to Atheist. One big step is better than no steps. Islam and Christianity are equally ridiculous and retrograde. As someone above said, they must go. Religion in a civilization whose progress is based on science and knowledge is as appropriate as an elephant taking a shit at High Tea.

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The Hypocrisy Is . . . . ASTOUNDING!!
Posted by: MAD on Apr 28, 2007 10:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The usual suspects are all here. There's a few Ultra PC'ers leading the charge while the rest of the Alterheads nod their robotic heads and repeat "yeah, yeah" in unison. The display of hypocrisy here is just overwhelming at times.

I'm pretty sure I could locate quotes from most of you rabid Muslim supporters wherein you declare how stupid, hateful, intolerant, mystical, warped, etc. Christians and Jews are. Funny thing . . . I doubt we'll see much criticism about Islam from those PC parrots today. Well, let's put that to the test and see if we can find a few, shall we?

BORNXEYED:

"How nice that we are allowed a choice between exteme Christians or moderate Christians. The "freedom of religion" clause does not mean only freedom to be a Baptist or Catholic or Presbyterian or Lutheran, etc. You can even be an atheist.

How about freedom FROM religion? "

-Yeah, how about that? Hey xeyed, why aren't we hearing this same pontification where Islam is concerned?

"The trouble with the religious right is not that they want acceptance, they want everyone to live by their narrow set of beliefs."

-Hmmm, what religion does this remind you of?

"According to fundamentalist Christian dogma, he will go to heaven for his belief in god and Jesus Christ, the women he killed are in hell for attempting to kill their fetuses."

-Golly Gee, Xeyed, how 'bout them thar Muslim suicide bombers and their virgins in the sky? They have been known to kill babies but I guess they don't deserve the same ridicule and scorn as Christians or Jews, right?

HUGHSCOTT:

"There is nothing wrong with poking fun at Evangelical Christians. Their "I'm right, you're wrong" dogma has, after all, made them deserving targets of humorous derision -- especially when born-agains say they believe man walked with dinosaurs. But there is no reason we can't be civil. Whitey might think about that, too."

-So, why isn't it fun to poke fun at morons who believe they are transported to a brothel in the sky for blowing up women and children? Don't they [Muslims] also believe that Islam is the only path to salvation? Isn't that worthy of ridicule? PC dust must have got in your eyes. You're pretty much a go along to get along kind of guy.

"When the Rapture comes & evangelicals shoot up to Heaven, I'll be thinking Good riddance."

-But Praise be to Allah for blessing us with Islam, right? Why aren't we hearing anything about how much you wish Muslims would shoot up to heaven? Oh, Oh - I know, I know! Because you're an F'ing hypocrite who would do or say anything to give the appearance that he's "one of the gang". Now, back to Hugh's regularly scheduled braggadocio, you know, heroic pilot who's obviously holding the key that will unlock the mysteries of the universe.

I suggest everyone head over to any thread about Christianity or Judaism and see what these wise and tolerant men have to say about those religions. I guess there must be some fundamental disconnect when it comes to Islam. The fact is that ALL religions are ridiculous and phony and yet we don't hear nearly the criticism of Islam that we do of Xtianity or Judaism.

BTW Asma, I think you're better off renouncing your ridiculous religion altogether, but if you inisist on remaining an adherent, you might want to stick with "moderate". Orthodox as defined by the dictionary says:

Customary or conventional, as a means or method; established.

Yeah, stick to those traditional beliefs like male/female segregation and "I'm worth half what a male is worth" belief structure. I'm sure forced sex, being denied the right to drive or go out without a male escort and being stoned to death for perceived infidelity is also in your best interest. Sheeeesh!!

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» Somali cabdrivers in Minneapolis Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
a moderate proposal for moderate muslims
Posted by: EasterBunny on Apr 28, 2007 10:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
rather than being so defensive towards criticisms of islam, why not put your efforts into trying to fix the muslim world? you can start by trying to downplay religion in your culture and pushing for a more secular society. have you noticed that the muslim world is falling further behind not just the secular west, but the secular east as well? it's not a coincidence. religion holds societies back. the west made its biggest advances after the reformation broke the hold of the catholic church. secular china is growing into the world's biggest power. the US seems religious but it's mostly rhetorical and we are actually a fairly secular society. (if the fundos took over here we'd fall apart pretty quickly and end up failing like Islamic countries have). so stop whining about bigotry, imperialism, israel, etc., etc., and create, a better, more secular culture.

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