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The Secrets of the Christian Right's Recruiting Tactics
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The meltdown, often skillfully manipulated by preachers and teams of evangelists, is one of the most pernicious tools of the movement. Through conversion one surrenders to a higher authority. And the higher authority, rather than God, is the preacher who steps in to take over your life. Being born again, and the process it entails, is more often about submission and the surrender of moral responsibility than genuine belief.
I attended a five-day seminar at Coral Ridge in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where I was taught, often by D. James Kennedy, the techniques of conversion. The callousness of these techniques -- targeting the vulnerable, building false friendships with the lonely or troubled, promising to relieve people of the most fundamental dreads of human existence from the fear of mortality to the numbing pain of grief -- gave to the process an awful cruelty and dishonesty. I attended the seminar as part of the research for my book "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America." Kennedy openly called converts "recruits" and spoke about them joining a new political force sweeping across the country to reshape and reform America into a Christian state.
"I would always go in first, introduce myself, Jim Kennedy," he told us. "I'm checking the lay of the land and I will look around the living room and see if there's something there that I can comment about. Frequently, there will be a large picture somewhere and where did they put it, this picture ... why would they put it over the fireplace? Significant."
"In Fort Lauderdale you don't find too many fireplaces," he added, smiling, "but there's some kind of central focus. Maybe ... golf trophies ... I'm over here looking at these golf trophies ... painting ... I say... beautiful painting, did you paint that? The first rule about looking at trophies, don't touch them ... did you win all those trophies? So we have a little conversation about golf, but I know enough about golf to have this conversation ... now what have I done? I'm making a friend."
"Compliment them on whatever you can," Kennedy said, "discuss what they do, you're going to find out what are their hobbies, maybe right there in the living room. Then you're going to ask them about what they do, where they're from, how long they've been there ... something to discuss with them ... in doing this, you have made a friend."
We are told to "emphasize the positive" and "identify with your prospect." We are encouraged in the green "Evangelism Explosion" instruction manual to use sentences such as "It is wonderful to know when I lay my head on my pillow tonight that if I do not awaken in bed in the morning, I will awaken in paradise with God." We are told to paint graphic pictures of personal tragedy that God has helped solve, such as: "I had a Christian son killed in Vietnam, yet my heart is filled with peace because I know he has eternal life. Even though he was killed by an enemy mortar, he has a home now in heaven, and one day we'll be reunited there." We are instructed to pepper our testimonies with words like love, peace, faithfulness, forgiveness, hope, purpose and obedience and remember to talk about how we have found, in our own conversion, "courage in the face of death."
Kennedy warns us not to carry a large Bible, but to keep a small one hidden in our pocket, saying "don't show your gun until you're ready to shoot it."
The conversion, at first, is euphoric. It is about new, loving friends, about the conquering of human anxieties, fears and addictions, about attainment through God of wealth, power, success and happiness. For those who have known personal and economic despair, it feels like a new life, a new beginning. The new church friends repeatedly call them, invite them to dinner, listen to their troubles and answer their questions. Kennedy told us that we must keep in touch in the days after conversion. He encouraged us to keep detailed files on those we proselytize. We must be sure the converts are never left standing alone at church. We must care when no one else seems to care. The converts are assigned a "discipler" or prayer partner, a new friend, who is wiser than they are in the ways of the Lord and able to instruct them in their new life.
The intense interest by a group of three or four evangelists in a potential convert, an essential part of the conversion process, the flattery and feigned affection, the rapt attention to those being recruited and the flurry of "sincere" compliments are a form of "love bombing." It is the same technique employed by most cults, such as the Unification Church or "Moonies," to attract prospects. It was a well-developed tactic of the Russian and Chinese communist parties, which share many of the communal and repressive characteristics of the Christian right.
"Love bombing is a coordinated effort, usually under the direction of leadership, that involves long-term members flooding recruits and newer members with flattery, verbal seduction, affectionate but usually nonsexual touching, and lots of attention to their every remark," the psychiatrist Margaret Thaler Singer wrote. "Love bombing -- or the offer of instant companionship -- is a deceptive ploy accounting for many successful recruitment drives."
The convert is gradually drawn into a host of church activities by his or her new friends, leaving little time for outside socializing. But the warmth soon brings with it new rules. When you violate the rules, you sin, you flirt with rebellion, with becoming a "backslider," someone who was converted but has fallen and is once again on the wrong side of God. And as the new converts are increasingly invested in the church community, as they cut ties with their old community, it is harder to dismiss the mounting demands of the "discipler" and church leaders. The only proper relationship is submission to those above you, the abandonment of critical thought and the mouthing of thought-terminating clichés that are morally charged. "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior" or "the wages of sin are death" is used to end all discussion.
Rules are incorporated slowly and deliberately into the convert's belief system. These include blind obedience to church leaders, the teaching of an exclusive, spiritual elitism that demonizes all other ways of being and believing, and a persecution complex that keeps followers mobilized and distrustful of outsiders. The result is the destruction of old communities, old friendships and the independent ability to make moral choices. Believers are soon encased in the church community. They are taught to emphasize personal experience rather than reasoning, and to reject the reality-based world. For those who defy the system, who walk away, there is a collective banishment.
There is a gradual establishment of new standards for every aspect of life. Those who choose spouses must choose Christian spouses. Families and friends are divided into groups of "saved" and "unsaved." The movement, while it purports to be about families, is the great divider of families, friends and communities. It competes with the family and those outside its structure for loyalty. It seeks to place itself above the family, either drawing all family members into its embrace or pushing those who resist aside. There were frequent prayers during the seminar I attended for relatives who were "unsaved," those who remained beyond the control of the movement. Many of these prayers, including one by a grandmother for her unsaved grandchildren, were filled with tears and wrenching pain over the damnation of those they loved.
The new ideology gives the believers a sense of purpose, feelings of superiority and a way to justify and sanctify their hatreds. For many, the rewards of cleaning up their lives, of repairing their damaged self-esteem, of joining an elite and blessed group are worth the cost of submission. They know how to define themselves. They do not have to make moral choice. It is made for them. They submerge their individual personas into the single persona of the Christian crowd. Their hope lies not in the real world, but in this new world of magic and miracles. For most, the conformity, the flight away from themselves, the dismissal of facts and logic, the destruction of personal autonomy, even with its latent totalitarianism, is a welcome and joyous relief. The flight into the arms of the religious right, into blind acceptance of a holy cause, compensates for the convert's despair and lack of faith in himself or herself. And the more corrupted and soiled the converts feel, the more profound their despair, the more militant they become, shouting, organizing and agitating to create a pure and sanctified Christian nation, a purity they believe will offset their own feelings of shame and guilt. Many want to be deceived and directed. It makes life easier to bear.
Freedom from fear, especially the fear of death, is what is being sold. It is a lie, as everyone has to know on some level, even while they write and rewrite their testimonies to conform to the instructors' demands. But admitting this in front of other believers is impossible. Such an admission would be interpreted as a lack of faith. And this too is part of the process, for it fosters a dread of being found out, a morbid guilt that we are not as good or as Christian as those around us. This dread does not go away with conversion or blind obedience or submission. This unachievable ideal forces the convert to repress and lose touch with the uncertainties, ambiguities and contradictions that make up human existence.
We were instructed to inform potential converts that Jesus came to Earth and died "to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us" and that "to receive eternal life you must transfer your trust from yourself to Jesus Christ alone for eternal life." We were told to ask the convert if he or she is willing "to turn from what you have been doing that is not pleasing to Him and follow Him as He reveals His will to you in His Word." If the covert agrees to accept a new way of life we are to bow our heads and pray, with the convert repeating each line after us.
"Lord Jesus, I want You to come in and take over my life right now. I am a sinner. I have been trusting in myself and my own good works. But now I place my trust in You. I accept You as my own personal Savior. I believe you died for me. I receive You as Lord and Master of my life. Help me to turn from my sins and to follow You. I accept the free gift of eternal life. I am not worthy of it, but I thank You for it. Amen."
And when it is over the new believers are told "Welcome to the family of God." They are told to read a chapter a day in the Gospel of John and that they will be visited again in a week to talk about the Bible. They are encouraged to pray, because God "promised to hear and answer our prayers." They are told to find "a good Bible-believing church and become a part of it." They are told to join a Christian fellowship group. They are told to witness to those in their family. With this, the process of deconstructing an individual and building a submissive follower, one who no longer has any allegiance to the values of the open society, begins.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 24, 2007 12:53 AM
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It seems strange to me that those claiming to represent and follow Jesus forget or ignore the teaching that God is no respecter of persons (rules out race, ethnic and sexual bias), that we are to live in and seek peace, that we are to love and be merciful to even those who do not reciprocate, that we are to be forgiving and not judgmental and that every person is our brother or our sister. They do, however, love to twist and distort the Bible for their own repressed and repressive political and social agenda.
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» RE: Faux Faith
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Faux Faith
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Faux Faith..sickosleaze..good one!!!..I wish
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Faux Faith
Posted by: Vistalady
» RE: Faux Faith Redux
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: Vistalady
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: Koko
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: Astroboy
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Apr 24, 2007 1:03 AM
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Thomas Merton
If all of us who profess to be "Christian" would only latch on to the Christianity of Thomas Merton, we would be more in tune to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He was a Trappist Monk who for twenty-seven years, between 1941 and 1968, rarely stepped outside the rural monastery in which he lived. So what could such a person possibly teach us about ourselves? As it tuns out, a whole lot. From the opening paragraph of his autobiography:
"On the last day of January 1915, under the sign of the Water Bearer, in the year of a great war and down in the shadow of some French mountains on the boarders of Spain, I came into the world. Free by nature, in the image of God, I was nevertheless the prisoner of my own violence and my own selfishness, in the image of the world into which I was born. That world was the picture of hell, full of men like myself, loving God and yet hating Him; born to love him, living instead in fear and hopeless and self-contradictory hungers".
In 1948, he was encouraged by the Abbot of the monastery he lived in, Our Lady of Gesthemanie outside Louisville, Kentucky to write his memoirs. Incredibly, the resulting effort, The Seven Storey Mountain, turned out to be one of the best selling books of the year. As Merton had been inspired by the events of the pre-war world to enter a life of contemplation, so were thousands of people of all faiths inspired by the events of the post-war world to question the very tenets of the so-called "American Century". Tom Merton not only planted the seeds that would eventually bear the fruit of what would evolve into the anti-war movement, re spoke out against racism at a time when most people didn't even know the meaning of the word.
He was vehemently anti-war even in times of relative peace:
"A letter arrives in the mail stamped with the slogan, 'The US ARMY: Key To Peace'. No 'great' nation has the key to anything but war. Power has nothing to do with peace. The more men build up military power, the more they violate peace and destroy it."
There is no question that in the year 2007, nearly forty years after his untimely death, Thomas Merton still matters. He reaches out to us across the decades, an articulate and passionate advocate for Peace and Love and Silence It was his prayerful belief that only by obliterating the noise of our lives - be it the electronic noise of our immediate surroundings or the noise of our minds - could we achieve a pure communion with God.
It would be nice if he were still here. Come to think of it, he is!
Pray for Peace.
Meditate for Peace.
Shout for Peace.
Be Silent for Peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY.
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
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» RE: Thomas Merton 1915-1968
Posted by: fitz1415m
» RE: Thomas Merton 1915-1968
Posted by: davidg
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 24, 2007 1:12 AM
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If you are stupid enough to be tricked into following some one else's rule, you get what you deserve. Tithe on the way out so the preacher/imam can buy a new Benz.
I want to read an article an Alternet that attacks islam the same way it does christainity. After all christains tell you, you are going to hell. muslims try to send you there.
(christain, muslim, islam, preacher, imam and christainity were left in lowercase intentionally to show disrespect to there beliefs in thaumaturgy)
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» RE: People are not forced to believe
Posted by: talkville
» You haven't been paying attention
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: You haven't been thinking
Posted by: MaxDelaney
» RE: People are not forced to believe
Posted by: hurshy43
» RE: People are not forced to believe, but too many are told they must.
Posted by: Pirate1
» RE: People are not forced to believe
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: People are not forced to believe sickofsleaze Is the day coming
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 24, 2007 2:10 AM
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A previous commenter remarked that this was unfair persecution of Christians. Bullshit! Unless you are acknowledging that hardcore brainwashing/mind control is inherent to Christianity (an argument that could be made but the indoctrination of most sects is more subtle) this can't be construed as an attack on Christianity, but a technique of mind control. Similar techniques are used to create fanatics of all stripes - as the author pointed out.
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» RE: I was "love bombed" - and I misread a previous comment
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: I was "love bombed"
Posted by: WhatNow?
» RE: I was "love bombed"
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: I was "love bombed"
Posted by: glorybe
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Apr 24, 2007 2:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dorothy Day
February 1969
Dorothy Day was another person who was the personification of the word, "Christian". In the 1920's she and her spiritual mentor, the French peasant and philosopher, Peter Maurin, founded a newspaper called The Catholic Worker andthat in her time she was viewed by many to be a dangerous radical. She was consided such a menace that J. Edgar Hoover even kept a file on her....(Charlie Chaplin, Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King and John Lennon also had files - that's pretty good company to be in!)
Dorothy Day not only dedicated her life to the poor and disposessed, she lived among them and humbly counted herself as one of them. The newspaper that she and Maurin co-founded in 1929 was the on;y voice in its time for the downtrodden. It still survives to this day. Its price remains, as it has been since the day of its inception, a penny per copy.
In the early 1930's, in the midst of what we now call "the great depression" she opened up a free shelter for the homeless in New York City, the first of its kind. Name din the honor of the Blessed Mother, to whom she was so devoted, Mary House was a miracle of hope to a people who had previously viewed their situation as utterly hopeless. At a time when even "progessive" northern cities operated witin the framework of a Jim Crow mentality, there were absolutely no restrictions with respect to race or religion. The only requirement was that a person or family were in need of food or shelter. She also ran a soup kitchen that fed everyone who couldn't be housed due to lack of space. No one walked away from Mary House without, at the very least, a decent meal and a cup of coffee. Dorothy Day made a difference! Within a couple of years Mary Houses were opening up all over the United States.
They also founded Mary Farm in Newburgh, NY (fifteen miles from where I sit) that grew the crops that fed their beloved masses. It survives today as the Peter Maurin Farm, 41 Cemetery Road, Marlbourough, NY 12542. It is run by my friends, Tom and Monica Cornell, devoted friends of Dorothy who have dedicated thier lives to her memory and her mission.
Dorothy Day passed from this life on November 29, 1980 at the far-too-young age of 83. Our generationdesperately yearns for a person of her stature and saintliness. When one compares her to some of today's so-called "men of God" - the Jerry Fallwells and the Pat Robertsons - praying on national TV for tax relief for the richest two percent and calling for the assassination of ?Hugo Chavez, the duly elected leader of a sovereign nation - one wants to weep.
Jesus wept.
It's easy to speculate that the likes of Dorothy Day will never pass this way again - but we can hope can't we? Hope is all we have....and prayer.
Pray for peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
For a subscription, please contact:
The Catholic Worker
36 East 1st Street
NY, NY 10003
(212) 777-9617
(212) 677-8627
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» RE: Dorothy Day and The Catholic Worker Web site:
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Dorothy Day and The Catholic Worker
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: reval on Apr 24, 2007 3:45 AM
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Get up off our knees, stop cringing before bogeymen and virtual fathers, face reality, and help science to do something constructive about human suffering.
Teach your children to say the prayer five time a day - while facing reality!
Rev. El Mundo
Pastor WVCSR
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» quick, find a stone mason
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: eal conversion
Posted by: MaxDelaney
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Posted by: Allison on Apr 24, 2007 4:25 AM
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I know it's just a metaphor, but I'm reminded of the scene in Saved where Mandy Moore, angered that her friend is questioning evangelical Christianity, throws a Bible at her. The response - "THIS is not a weapon! You idiot!" - pretty much sums up my feelings about the EC's.
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» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: Vistalady
» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: Vistalady
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Apr 24, 2007 4:33 AM
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And as other posters demonstrate, contrary to the article's incoherent first paragraph, there are all kinds of Christians.
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» RE: Jesus H. Christ, Alternet, please give it a rest
Posted by: jroth420
» I disagree: detailing the METHODS of mindcontrol is enlightening
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: I disagree: detailing the METHODS of mindcontrol is enlightening
Posted by: Lauren
» Unfortunately, affirmative
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: wawa on Apr 24, 2007 4:38 AM
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Jesus was NEVER a Christian.
The term was NOT even coined until the days of Paul, three decades after Christ walked the earth. Jesus was a social justice radical revolutionary PALESTINIAN devout Jewish Road Warrior who rose up/INTIFADA and challenged the job security of the Temple Authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths and sacrificing livestock for them to be OK with God; for God loved them just as they were; sinners, outcasts, diseased, cripples, widows, orphans, refugees, prisoners all enduring under OCCUPATION!
What got JC crucified was that he disturbed the status quo of the OCCUPYING forces by teaching such subversive concepts that God loved-even preferred the sinners, outcasts, diseased, cripples, widows, orphans, refugees, prisoners all enduring under OCCUPATION and that Cesar only had power, because God allowed it.
What Jesus REALLY said:
"I say to you, unless one is born of water* and spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of God…Do not be amazed that I have told you, 'You must be born from above.' The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the wound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:1-8
[*Water: Jesus' first miracle was at the wedding in Canna, when he changed the water into wine and kept the party going. ]
For every misunderstanding, every condemning thought, every negative vibration, every tear torn from a heart, every time one grabbed and wouldn’t let go, and they only did it because they did not know:
The Divine is within all creation and within all women and men.
And every tiny kindness you have ever done, every gentle word spoken, every time you held your tongue, every positive thought, every smile freely given, every helping hand that opens, helps bring in the kingdom:
And the kingdom comes from above, and it comes from within.
Imagine a kingdom of sisterhood of all creatures and all men.
eileen fleming
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» Yet again, Jesus was NOT the precusor to the PLO/Hamas, whatever...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: From the Christian Left
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Jesus is a concoction
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: wawa on Apr 24, 2007 4:45 AM
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Stage one upon this journey -that begins from within-is essentially our infancy in the spiritual life. Like a wild child, a person in this stage reflects the inner chaotic and anti-social, unregenerate soul that is interested only in its own self-satisfaction and ego, much like the stereotypical spoiled child. Stage one people may claim to love others, but their behavior reflects they love their own pleasure, money, power, prestige, and security above any other. For stage one people, it really is all about them.
The good news is that the vast majority of humanity responds to that inner tug which is God, for lack of a better word. Katherine of Sienna wrote that within us all is the divine diamond. But life and all our baggage dulls the flame of our divine brilliance.
Stage two souls seek to "let their light shine" and will live virtuous lives and do many good works. They also can be judgmental of others, self-righteous, rigid of thought, cold of heart, legalistic concrete literal thinkers and may even be guilty of a lukewarm faith. They want to do right and they even may desire to love and please God, but have not yet fully opened up to the Inner Light, as Joan of Ark did when she challenged church and state and persisted that she had intuited God within -even while being fried.
Stage two souls have not yet been set fully free and prefer the security of a higher human authority than themselves for guidance. They submit to institutions, scripture, dogma, ritual, ministers, or gurus. This is the most appropriate stage for older children and most adults who live busy lives just trying to keep bread on the table and a dry roof above.
The difference between a stage one and stage two soul, is that a one wouldn't even notice a neighbor in need, while the two has awoken to the fact that we are to be our neighbor's keepers and they will respond to a friend-and like the good Samaritan, even to a total stranger in need.
Most theologians would agree that the opposite of faith is not disbelief: the opposite of faith is fear. Stage three souls have not just fearlessly awoken, they have evolved!
This evolution has led them to the realization of what Christ was really talking about in the Sermon of the Mount/The Beatitudes.
A stage three soul may well reject Christ as God, but often agree with the philosophy of Jesus...
Stage 3 and 4 souls can be read about April 21 WAWA Blog:
http://www.wearewideawake.org
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» RE: stage 2 souls will fall for a cult
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: stage 2 souls will fall for a cult
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: stage 2 souls will fall for a cult
Posted by: EncinoM
» absolute faith and trust is for babies
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: absolute faith and trust is for babies
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: rosjoypa on Apr 24, 2007 4:50 AM
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Religions gain accretions of untruths which become 'tradition', far removed from any original belief.
It was always so and will always be so. Unfortunately we humans are a gullible lot..
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Posted by: eric555 on Apr 24, 2007 4:54 AM
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APOSTATE.....Look it up.
This article does not expose anything new. Christians have been fighting people like D. James Kennedy for 2000 years. He and his kind will always be out there. There will allways be people with itchy ears wanting to hear what they have to say.
The sad part is that he give Hedges and others an excuse to label Christianity a cult and dismiss it. Dismissing Christianity because of people like Kennedy is like dismissing America because of people like George Bush.
Truth exists for those who are not afraid to look for it.
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» Dismissing Christianity because of people like Kennedy is like dismissing America because of people
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» you may have missed it
Posted by: hurshy43
» Who told us that we "must be born again" to be a follower of religious turths?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Who told us that we "must be born again" to be a follower of religious truths?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: you may have missed it - Hedges Is Correct
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: you may have missed it - Hedges Is Correct
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: eric555
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: mythbuster
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: eric555
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: mythbuster
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Apr 24, 2007 4:58 AM
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Religious 'conversion', its application, its adherence, attendance of church, watching televangelists, giving your money away, etc., is at its simplest only about power and control. It's as basic as that.
All of the people at the top of the religious food chain are totally and completely aware of that fact. They apply those facts to their recruits. They are conscious of HOW to perform the conversion. They know what power and control is and how to manipulate the weak-minded. They use tried and true methods of conversion, immersion, passion, and focus. Everywhere you hear about these people you hear and see the exact same thing. Religion is about power and control and NOTHING else. It's not about good vs. evil because that is a religious dichotomy made up by religious people. Good vs. evil doesn't exist - it is a CONSTRUCT built out of the House of Dust called religion. Religion is not about 'going to Heaven' because Heaven is a construct built out of myths almost too old to properly identify. It is not about the End Times because the End Times is an abject lie designed to fool people into giving up EVERYTHING to the leaders. Everything such as your assets, the last shred of your sanity, and your objective reality.
As long as people insist on having an external locus of control they can be manipulated by so-called religious leaders. I recommend that people develop a good solid internal locus of control so that they can see precisely where the center of their reality lies. Until that happens en masse people will continue to cling to their misemotional states of awareness and push the rest of us closer to a nuclear wasteland - all because they are so wrapped up in their narcissistic emotional problems which they insist on foisting on the rest of us.
Can you say Prozac?
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» RE: Power and Control
Posted by: Xynyx
» Athiests cannot be controlled of others like religious people are
Posted by: poppop_schell
» religious folks are trained to swallow, atheists are trained to think critically
Posted by: counterpoint
» Agnostics, Not Atheists, Are the True Critical Thinkers.
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Agnostics, Not Atheists, Are the True Critical Thinkers.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: religious folks are trained to swallow, atheists are trained to think critically
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Athiests cannot be controlled of others like religious people are
Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: Athiests cannot be controlled of others like religious people are
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 24, 2007 5:23 AM
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I met Rev. Graham in 1965 during my active duty USAF years. The first thing I noticed were his clothes. Billy gave new meaning to the phrase, "Dressed to the Nines," with a suit that clearly cost more than my monthly first lieutenant’s salary and shoes I couldn't afford, even as an Air Force captain.
Fifteen years later, while flying 727s for Continental Airlines, Jesse Jackson was a First Class passenger on my plane. During cruise while visiting the forward cabin, again I couldn’t help noticing a famous religious leader's attire. Despite being a well-paid airline pilot, I could tell Jesse's wardrobe was way beyond my clothing budget.
Here's my point. Religious organizations in the United States are run like corporations with leaders enjoying excellent salaries, generous benefits and well-funded retirement plans that most working Americans could not imagine much less ever enjoy. And like corporations, to attract customers (church members) to finance their upper-class life styles, they have adopted the necessary recruiting tactics. Simply put, for people who run religious organizations in the United States, "Praise the Lord" often means worshipping money, not God.
I will end my comment now and continue waiting for someone on this thread to name a living famous, non-wealthy religious leader.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption. AlterNet readers who object to my NON-PROFIT campaign to expose President Bush as a lying crook can email me through the website rather than comment here.
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» you forgot to mention tax exempt
Posted by: fuzypupy
» You're right, fuzypupy. ABSURD tax relief for churches did slip my mind.
Posted by: HughScott
» Good Points, Mr. Scott
Posted by: Aimleft
» Sadly for the truly religious, leaders like Jackson have used the Bible as an easy way to success.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Good Points, Mr. Scott
Posted by: aussidawg
» Televangelist's dog lives in air conditioning
Posted by: fanny666
» To fanny 666. NON-profit means virtually no taxes on church leaders which we pay for.
Posted by: HughScott
» praying for a new Learjet
Posted by: counterpoint
» $21 million, of course
Posted by: counterpoint
» The Dalai Lama not only...
Posted by: Wesley69
» RE: The Dalai Lama not only...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» These guys are hardly famous. NM
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: These guys are hardly famous. NM
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: fork
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Shohaku Okumura
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: so then, where are
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: so then, where are
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: so then, where are
Posted by: poppop_schell
» DO GOOD NO MATTER WAHT!!!
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: Lauren
» A Church Leader INVARIABLY demands 10 percent of your income to SAVE you.
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: A Church Leader INVARIABLY demands 10 percent of your income to SAVE you.
Posted by: poppop_schell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jim on Apr 24, 2007 5:28 AM
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Christians usually look to 1 Corinthians 13 for a definition of love:
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.
So real love from Christians, is not just to potential converts, but forever. Literally.
Love does not insist on its own way. It gives the other freedom. Galatians 5.1: "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." This is not submitting to a "preacher who steps in to take over one's life."
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» RE: eal love brings freedom
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: eal love brings freedom
Posted by: aussidawg
» Amen
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: crystaldave on Apr 24, 2007 5:57 AM
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"The Authoritarians" by Bob Altemeyer.
http://members.shaw.ca/perchaluk/drbob/chapter1.pdf
It's a long read but totally worth it. A thorough deconstruction of authoritarians, and more importantly, their followers. A must read for anyone who wants to know more about what we're up against...
Jesus, Save me from your followers!
Love and Light,
Crystal Dave (The Wizard of Wyrd)
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» Thanks for the Link!
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 24, 2007 6:10 AM
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» RE: I'm all amused at the Christians
Posted by: metavurt
» RE: I'm all amused at the Christians
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» This country is cowering more and more.....
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: I'm all amused at the Christians
Posted by: calguy
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Apr 24, 2007 7:01 AM
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But I never did hear from them again when I didn't agree to buy one of their seminars. Gee. I thought they liked me.
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Posted by: Xynyx on Apr 24, 2007 7:06 AM
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Mikhail Bakunin
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» RE: Bakunin
Posted by: hellofriends
» Mother Teresa was a right wing lunatic obsessed with conversion and abortion
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: peritonlogon on Apr 24, 2007 7:12 AM
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» RE: Just a thought
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Just a thought
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Just a thought
Posted by: Xynyx
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Posted by: jpetty on Apr 24, 2007 8:21 AM
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» Mormons gloss over their own "faith" when it suits them,
Posted by: Sharoney
» RE: Mormons gloss over their own "faith" when it suits them,
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 24, 2007 9:56 AM
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I think it's important for people to put this current movement into historical context. Biblical arguments were made by Southern "Conservative Christians" to justify slavery- that was one of their main arguments at the time it was becoming a serious debate in the US. Google BIBLE SLAVERY and you'll find all kinds of perspectives on that, but you can dig up some very telling quotes from anti-abolitionists if you look.
Also, think about the most common slang for gays: "faggots" or "flamers". Why? A faggot is a bundle of sticks, right? Hmmm.... sticks and flames... it comes from the practice of burning gays at the stake, in a "righteous cleansing fire."
God hates flaming faggots
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» Meanwhile, today on FoxNews.com...
Posted by: fanny666
» Too short
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 24, 2007 10:33 AM
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» RE: ed Brown and Blue Party comment
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: counterpoint on Apr 24, 2007 11:01 AM
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» RE: they prey upon the vulnerable
Posted by: grolan
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Apr 24, 2007 11:46 AM
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The author of this article was not a member of the “choir” and these training seminars he attended were not “preaching” to him. While his point-of-view as an outsider no doubt gives him an interesting perspective on religious indoctrination, his analysis is fatally weighted down with his prejudices and preconceptions.
For those of us in the public relations business, this sort of thing is nothing new. Two of the guiding principles of effective public relations illustrate my point:
Always tailor your message to your target audience.
Perception IS Reality.
Right up front, I’ll concede something that has always been true of both religion and ideologies like fascism, communism and environmentalism: no matter how good or just the idea or the belief may be, evil men will twist it to achieve their ends.
But if people like Martin Luther King or Dietrich Bonhoeffer are any indication, there really is such a thing as the genuine article. These people are rare, and often it is hard even for the wise to tell the difference between them and posers like Ted Haggerty and Jimmy Swaggart.
The early church was successful because believers knew the importance of “tailoring their message to their target audience in order to avoid the awful danger of misperception.” The most successful early believer to apply these fundamentals of public relations was Saul of Tarsus (aka the Apostle Paul).
“Except for these chains..”
When Paul spoke to unbelievers like King Agrippa, he limited his discourse to his own conversation experience on the road to Damascus. Plus he only spoke about his faith WHEN ASKED TO DO SO by Agrippa.
When Paul finished, Agrippa famously quipped that in a short time Paul would seek to convert him. Paul’s response: Yes indeed, he hoped that Agrippa would “become as we are, except for these chains.”
When Paul spoke to Jews in the synagogues, he spoke as a Jew (“a Pharisee of Pharisees”), reading from the Torah and offering an interpretation of the reading, much as Jesus did (“today in your hearing this scripture is fulfilled.”) His fellow Jews didn’t like his interpretations of the Torah, and repeatedly sought his death.
But when Paul wrote to the churches he had founded in Corinth, Ephesus and Thessalonica, he tailored his letters to the specific needs of these churches. For example, the church at Corinth needed discipline because a member of the congregation was sleeping with his step-mother.
The letters of Paul “preached to the choir,” instructing believers in the doctrines of their faith and teaching them how to live the Christian life – which they had FREELY CHOSEN. (Manipulation and brainwashing do not constitute either “free” or “choice.”)
The problem with the church today is that Paul’s example has been turned on its ear. Instead of following Paul’s example with King Agrippa and waiting to be asked, believers corner nonbelievers and demand that they “turn or burn, fly or fry.” Instead of limiting their discourse to their own personal testimony of conversion, they cast judgment on nonbelievers and quote passages from Paul’s letters that were intended ONLY FOR THOSE WHO HAD FREELY CHOSEN TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
COMMENTS CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Apr 24, 2007 11:47 AM
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This situation gets exponentially worse when such judgmental behavior gets exploited by brainwashers liken Jim Jones and Pat Robertson and self-serving politicians and Machiavellian hacks like Carl Rove. Believers would do well to remember the advice of their Messiah on these matters: remove the log from your own eye before judging the splinter in your brother’s eye. Or even better, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
What a believer freely chooses to do is between him and his God. Try to keep it there, brother. Set a good example and the nonbelievers in your life might just get curious and ask you about your faith. Don’t be a patsy for the Carl Roves and the Pat Robertsons of the world, who wouldn’t know how to be their brother’s keeper if their lives depended on it.
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Posted by: ohb0b on Apr 24, 2007 12:05 PM
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Fundamentalism offers easy answers to life's problems, there is a set of rules, everything is divided into good or evil, black or white, there are no nuances or exceptions. This is a very enticing arguement to someone who is sorting things out.
The fundies recruit people who are in life's crises and crossroads; divorce, job loss, drug addiction/alcoholism, graduating school, etc. One of my professors at CFNI put it best when he said "no one comes to God when they are fat, dumb, and happy. This is not entirely bad, fundamentalism is a highly effective treatment for addictive diseases, for example, and faith can give a person direction and purpose in life.
The problem is you must surrender your mind to a God's authority on earth: the preacher, the Pope, the Imam who has all the answers. When one is acutely vulnerable to fundy assault, it is just a matter of which one gets there first. I compare itr to a person who has no automotive knowledge taking their car into the shop, and telling the mechanic to "just fix it," and send me the bill. It is easy to become mentally lazy.
The believer is also counseled to throw away what remains of his intellect, and "come to Jesus as a little child." Another allegory is that of being a "sheep." They revel in what most people consider an insult!
Once the mind is disengaged, it becomes a blank slate, but it is not blank for long. Because believers are so easily manipulated is what makes this so dangerous. A friendly pol comes along, and uses many of the fundamentalist recruiting techniques against them, showering them with affection, listening to their story, showing empathy, etc. Presto! instant voting bloc!
The anti-intellectual nature of fundamentalism also directly plays hand-inhand to the "redneck" culture, what we used to call "country dumb;" those city slickers think they're so smart. Of course now, the city slickers have become the "liberal elite." It just becomes a matter of convincing the hicks that you really are a slow talkin' Texas cowpoke. Doesn't anyone else see through this facade? Hilliary can't get away with it, but somehow W can.
The second thing Hedges leaves out is the fundamentalist believes his particular sect holds a monopoly on truth, wisdom, and morality. That is why arguing with a fundy is so difficult. He can simply disregard any opposing debate as invalid because it doesn't come from his sources. You also can't know the truth, as you don't have the "spirit" to guide you. So, you can't even argue from scripture that presents an opposing view.
Along with this world view comes a persecution complex. Not to minimize the genuine persecution and martyrdom that has occurred throughout the centuries, but simple disagreement with your religious beliefs, and yes, even ridicule is not exactly being tossed to the lions. But it becomes a handy wedge issue. A cracker judge posts the Ten Commandments in his courtroom, the local ACLU files suit against a manger scene in the village square quickly becomes evidence of persucution. Again, easily exploitable wedge issues for your friendly pol. Sometimes it is just too easy.
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» RE: Ohb0b, Seattle
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Ohb0b, Seattle
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Ohb0b, Seattle
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» Hedges has a Master of Divinity from Harvard, is a minister's son, and a Christian
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Hedges has a Master of Divinity from Harvard, is a minister's son, and a Christian
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: harpy on Apr 24, 2007 12:04 PM
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Posted by: harpy on Apr 24, 2007 12:19 PM
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» Born again progressives are a bulwark against American fascism
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: wleming on Apr 24, 2007 12:55 PM
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self help, motivational, and sales courses. Capitalism
has been quick to capitalise on the words of sales guru
Bruce Barton who said, simply: "Christ was the greatest
salesman who ever lived."
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» RE: sales techniques
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: jims713 on Apr 24, 2007 1:09 PM
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» for a reason: 12 step programs have a religious underpinning
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: kenhymes on Apr 24, 2007 1:12 PM
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Anti-religious posters: you have thoroughly demonstrated your contempt for the 90% of the earth's population who believe, whether you like it or not, in invisible things. You dismiss anyone who seeks to broaden your awareness of what is going on in the Christian faith in America. Likewise, you scorn anyone who attempts to broaden the discussion about what public life based on science and mercantilism might look like in practice, as opposed to in theory (praxis versus "scripture" applies here, too, not only in religious history). More critically, for anyone who is interested in the success of the essential economic justice argument the left has to offer, you ignore the history of the left's own successes in American history, which have always involved a significant involvement of people who believe in God.
Childishly, you believe that you can change a culture as you insult it and laugh at it. Arrogantly, you believe that your brains are bigger than those of Einstein, who was a believer. Astoundingly, you find a way of separating the history of resistance from the actual life histories and motives of its practitioners, people like Ghandhi, Martin Luther King, the Quakers, the Sanctuary movement of the 80's. None of these people were perfect, and naturally you are free to reject their cosmologies, which were not monolithic, but diverse. But to assert that you, the angry, ranting mob of the blogosphere, are better equipped, more farseeing, more rational than people such as these to engender change for justice and peace in this world: it's simply absurd.
You can mock all you want, you can pretend that a progressive Christian is an oxymoron: I'm a Christian, and I support equal rights for gays and lesbians, I support labor rights, I support serious restrictions on industrial pollution, national health care, and I believe in God and the saving grace of Jesus Christ. It doesn't need to make sense to you, any more than your belief that life and consciousness are chemical accidents needs to make sense to me. That's why we have a pluralistic democracy, at least in theory. Making it one in practice means respecting difference. It's such a basic thing, isn't it: two wrongs don't make a right - the fact that a sector of the population (and by the way Alternet ALWAYS accepts the self-claims of that sector as to its influence and number at face value) is routinely insulting to gays, atheists, and others, and seeks to promote its agenda in extra-constitutional ways simply does not make it okay to do the same thing in reverse. All this talk of "banning religion" or "eliminating faith from public discourse" is, well... un-American. And it's just stupid and counterproductive for the left to be engaging in this kind of chatter.
It is easy to notice the fundies, because they are loud and public in their political efforts. Leftist Christians don't tend (until very recently) to set up faith-based political organizations, they simply work through the ones that are already there, precisely because they don't reject allies based on their theology or lack of it. Doesn't that sound like a pretty good idea for the left as a whole?
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» RE: So far off base
Posted by: delbard
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: xgroverx
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» You still can't see the forest for the trees, poppop
Posted by: Beck
» RE: You still can't see the forest for the trees, poppop
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: wishninja
» RE: "pray at sporting events"
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: "pray at sporting events"
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: sporting event prayer? Jesus said public prayer was what hypocrites do
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: No, he condemned it and forbade it. Rightwing Americans just hate that.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» we are NOT one happy family (part one)
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: we are NOT one happy family (part two
Posted by: counterpoint
» WHAT WOULD ATHIEST DO IF THEY REPRESENTED 90% OF THE PEOPLE?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: we are NOT one happy family (part one)
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: we are NOT one happy family (part one)
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Thank you
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: Wesley69 on Apr 24, 2007 1:33 PM
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Posted by: ear3 on Apr 24, 2007 1:48 PM
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Another distinction is between the process of conversion and integration into the community and the authoritarian structure of said community. Many of the "tactics" described are not inherently devious. I'm thinking, for example, of the immediate love and friendship offered to people in twelve-step fellowships or other support groups. Of course, this comparison points to the fact that religious conversion is much more an emotional and spiritual phenomenon, usually following a crisis of some sort, where intellectualizing the problem doesn't quite cut it. The end to which these conversion tactics are put makes the difference I think. Is it aimed a separating the person off from his previous milieu, and inculcating a set of elite and exclusive (as well as exclusionary) values? Or is it just to provide a safe haven in which to find refuge from a real trauma and pain, in which the person may indeed form new friendships and contacts in a way they might never have been capable of?
It is easy to mock Christian fundamentalists, but in many ways this just reinforces their belief in the vanity and corruption of the world. Our mockery will also not change the contemporary prevalence of religious zeal, nor its historical importance for some clearly exemplary achievements (Civil Rights?!).
I think the goal should be to find points of common contact between progressives and religious groups. Imagine how potent a force it would be to have evangelicals on the side of environmentalists? This is not far-fetched, given last year's statement of the National Association of Evangelicals that global climate change was a moral issue, and fell under the Biblical principle of man's stewardship over the Earth.
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» RE: Important distinctions
Posted by: poppop_schell
» we need both contact and avoidance
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: we need both contact and avoidance
Posted by: ear3
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Posted by: The Big Raven on Apr 24, 2007 2:10 PM
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 24, 2007 2:43 PM
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Judge Christianity by Christ and the life He led and died, not from His imperfect followers, and certainly not from the bastards and pretenders and demons using and pretending at Christianty for power and profit above all.
All religions, all economic systems, all political systems, can be and will be co-opted by evil. Nothing man does is immune, no system is perfect.
Judge a belief system by its founder's works, not by its adherents, and certainly not by its obviously false pretended and claimed adherents.
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» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: poppop_schell
» getting through to indoctrinated people is often impossible
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: getting through to indoctrinated people is often impossible
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» WHAT IS MEANT BY PATRONIZING?
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: ARTLADY on Apr 24, 2007 4:16 PM
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The behavior of those doing the brainwashing is nothing short of fascist. The people they are brainwashing appear to believe they are accepting new and refreshed religious beliefs, renewing and solidifying old religious beliefs and becoming part of a new and loving group of people.
I think now I understand why a certain percentage of the American public are walking around in a coma, oblivious to truth.
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» RE: Christian Right Uses Cult-like 'Love Bomb' Tactics
Posted by: poppop_schell
» my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: Beck
» RE: my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: Beck
» RE: my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: ARTLADY on Apr 24, 2007 4:24 PM
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I wonder what the brainwashed sheeple who have unwittingly been participating in fascism will do when the truth is fully exposed and they finally realize they were suckered by a religion that isn't religion at all?
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» RE: Christian Right Uses Cult-like 'Love Bomb' Tactics
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Christian Right Uses Cult-like 'Love Bomb' Tactics - Like Poppup_schell?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: KUCING on Apr 24, 2007 5:07 PM
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Posted by: The Wise Synic on Apr 24, 2007 5:44 PM
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 24, 2007 7:59 PM
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5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God (NOT SOME MINISTER), that giveth to ALL men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it SHALL (NOT MAYBE) be given him.
6 BUT (here are the conditions for getting an answer)
let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
This boy believed that promise and went and prayed and was visited by Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ who told him NOT to join ANY church because they spoke about Him with their lips but their hearts were FAR from Him, teaching for commandments the philosophies of man mixed with scripture.
In 1830 the Mormon Church started and restored the pure truths of Jesus Christ to the earth in preparation for His 2nd Coming. All are invited to join in this great last days gathering. All are also free to totally reject this great message. Free agency reigns in God's Kingdom.
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» RE: ALL THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE FALSE.... BUT ONE!!!!
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: ALL THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE FALSE.... BUT ONE!!!!
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Schell: "Yes, Mormoins are social conservatives. . ."
Posted by: fork
» RE: Schell: "Yes, Mormoins are social conservatives. . ."
Posted by: poppop_schell
» there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: goatini
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: well, your friend PART TWO
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: having your cake and eating it too
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: having your cake and eating it too
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: Abandoned on Apr 24, 2007 8:25 PM
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I am astonished at the similarities between the tactics described here, and those employed by Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programs, the only difference is that they use their own literature, "The Big Book" instead of the bible.
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» RE: 12 step love bombing
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: xgroverx on Apr 24, 2007 9:29 PM
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Posted by: lessbread on Apr 24, 2007 9:38 PM
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According to Bruce Wilson: For years, hundreds of millions of dollars, at least, in Unification Church money has bought influence among American politicians and journalists, and top leaders of the Christian right... (Right Wing rumor mill funded by Shark Poaching Ring?).
Might it be possible that these "love bombers" aren't really Christians at all but Moonies in disguise?
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» Rev Moon has bought off Bush 41, and owns the money losing Wash Times to exert influence
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: ev Moon has bought off Bush 41, and owns the money losing Wash Times to exert influence
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: doctorsquared on Apr 24, 2007 9:44 PM
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 24, 2007 11:30 PM
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Think of church and most religions as the original social networking hubs of the world. You go and make connections, network with people who can benefit you in some way. It's a community.
Personally I'm an atheist but I have known atheists who have attended church for the fringe benefits while remaining complete atheists. They tended to have the "American dream" and much of it was attributable directly to their involvement with the church.
Kind of interesting how that works.
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Posted by: govindas on Apr 25, 2007 1:00 AM
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Most saintly persons have adopted such method,and abandoned old ways of living,that allow all sorts of offenses to living entities and to oneself.
The disciple in Krishna's cult vows to stop such activities,though it is quite difficult to do so.Stopping eating meat,gambling and smoking are not so difficult,but stopping sexual activities is quite difficult,but not impossible.
It sounds,for those who have not experienced any spiritual training,that such control is detrimental to one's character,and real life is to do whatever our mind asks us,but just look around and see the disasters caused by free-minded people:they are in deep despair,and even they have wealth,they sometimes commit suicide,due to the demands of the senses,that are not fulfilled.
When I was younger,I used also to believe in total freedom of action and mind,but with time,I'm so glad that I somewhat can control my urges,and concentrate on higher values.It just needs practice,and can last lifetimes or just some years,according to one's intensity in spiritual life.Those who succeed,do get a very peaceful departure from this world of suffering,as they have at least tried to evolve towards the Supreme Intelligent Being.
http://asitis.com Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prabhupada
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Posted by: Ripcord on Apr 25, 2007 7:51 AM
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I ocassionally go to a Seven Day Adventist Church--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
I teach a tai chi class at a Luthern Church--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
I've gone to Mormon Churches--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
Jehovah Witnesses stop by the house once a month--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
I've done zazen at Buddhist temples--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
What? Are you afraid to smile at another human being,
shake their hands, hug them?
All this anti-this, anti-that wears thin.
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» RE: negative over-generalizations
Posted by: kenhymes
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Posted by: thirdmg on Apr 25, 2007 8:59 AM
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Poppup_schell is using AlterNet for free advertising to proselytize for the Mormon Church, which often cooperates with the rest of the religious right on a variety of issues. He is not here just to inform, as he sometimes claims. He is clearly here to promote his religion and to find potential converts. He is, in fact, by his own description, a dedicated Mormon missionary who himself became a convert in the Sixties.
You need only check the messages posted by poppup_schell throughout AlterNet to see that promoting the Mormon religion is ultimately the only reason that he posts here. In short, he is spamming AlterNet's readers for the benefit his religion.
Isn't it time to call a halt to the use and abuse of these boards for such tactics?
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» RE: balance a virtue
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: balance a virtue
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Naivete Is Not
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: balance a virtue - But Naivete Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Speech, dialogue and discussion
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: kittyhegemann on Apr 25, 2007 1:48 PM
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Posted by: iggy on Apr 25, 2007 4:31 PM
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Read the Bible for yourself, and listen to absolutely nobody else's interpretations of it. Many churches, evangelist groups, Christian schools and television programs, will all twist it to their own liking.
Romans 7 and 8 is an interesting read about the downside of religion and rules. (However, that's my interpretation)
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Apr 26, 2007 10:42 AM
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The writer could choose to really elucidate the ways in which the Right castrates and pollutes faith. Instead, the writer simply blasts the faith itself.
He writes:
"Freedom from fear, especially the fear of death, is what is being sold. It is a lie, as everyone has to know on some level..."
Really? What empirical evidence does he present for this assertion? It is the long death of the spirit apart from the Maker from which Christians are assured salvation. One may believe it or not. If it is true -- and I am persuaded that it is, I gain everything. If it is not -- and I am not persuaded that this is so -- I lose nothing.
In the meantime, I am guided by some sound principles of living -- utterly smeared and distorted by this writer -- and a peace which the God of Love gives us.
I'll take it.
Peace.
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Posted by: thirdmg on Apr 26, 2007 11:07 AM
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The reality of the effectiveness of conversion tactics in general can't be ignored. As pointed out in an In These Times article, How to Turn Your Red State Blue:
"..the improbable fact about missionary activity is that it works, regardless of the faith's specific dogma. Mormons are the fastest-growing church in the country. Evangelical protestant congregations make up 58 percent of all new churches in the United States. Globally, Islam continues to reach into new and unfamiliar lands, experiencing explosive growth in China. Religions that actively proselytize — Pentecostals, Mormons, Muslims — grow, almost without exception."
The question is what to do when an increasing growth in conversions to religious right sects in our country threatens to undermine and replace democratic, tolerant, secular institutions with religious authoritarianism.
Just as the political left wasted decades before developing an effective counterpart to the political right's noise machine, so the religious and secular left have been slow in creating an effective counterpart to the religious right. The religious right's triumph in making itself (a minority) the standard for religious values in America by means of its scorched-earth attacks against reason and science and social changes is what's fueling an increasingly anti-religious response from secularists and others. Already, some are anticipating stronger retaliatory actions, as in the following tit-for-tat response to the suggestion by a fundamentalist minister that gays should be eliminated in the womb:
Pre-natal Elimination Of Fundamentalists? - "Before you dismiss this question as hypothetical or academic, consider that research into the origins of spirituality is a robust field of inquiry. There are currently about a dozen studies that show shared personality traits among religious people, suggesting a genetic or biological basis."
If the religious left is disturbed by the increase in anti-religious sentiment, maybe it should focus its attention on the cause of the sentiment - the religious right - instead of attacking the secular or non-religious left, which isn't trying to subvert our institutions.
And, if the left, religious or otherwise, hopes to create a strong defense against the religious right's creation of a separate society designed ultimately to gain dominance over mainstream society, then maybe the left should seriously consider developing an integrated, methodical response - involving the funding of foundations, think tanks, scientific studies, etc. - dedicated to countering and uprooting authoritarian religion.
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» RE: Hedges Has Warned Us - Now What?
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: werewolf on Apr 27, 2007 5:55 AM
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It is to earn their own daily BREAD and other benefits that is of more concern to the Church leaders than to 'SAVE' any souls from Jesus' fiery hell. And coming to think of hell wouldn't you be horrified if CIVILIZED Christians were to cast their enemies into burning pits? Why do Christians excuse their god for TORTURE that they would not excuse another human being to commit?
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» RE: emember that Church leaders will resort to anything to convert you to be a 'TRUE' Christian
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: emember that Church leaders will resort to anything to convert you to be a 'TRUE' Christian
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: emember that Church leaders will resort to anything to convert you to be a 'TRUE' Christian
Posted by: poppop_schell
» How is your Jesus diffeent from the Jesus of the Bible?
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: How is your Jesus diffeent from the Jesus of the Bible?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» How is your Jesus different from the Jesus of the Bible?
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: davidg on Apr 27, 2007 11:38 AM
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» RE: read Karen Armstrong
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: glorybe on Apr 27, 2007 10:06 PM
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Posted by: werewolf on Apr 28, 2007 1:51 AM
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Bush has Jesus on his side. True Christians who claim they are against Bush for creating Guantanamo Bay are only being hypocrites. If they support Jesus for the creation of the worst torture chamber, the fiery Hell, they cannot honestly say they are against barbaric practices like torture. Period!
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» RE: If Jesus were to come today
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: If Jesus were here today - he'd cast out the torturers!
Posted by: babaloo
» RE: If Jesus were here today - he'd cast out the torturers!
Posted by: poppop_schell
» If Jesus owns Hell, then he cannot point at any torture chamber created by man as unjustified!
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: If Jesus owns Hell, then he cannot point at any torture chamber created by man as unjustified!
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: Sharoney on Apr 28, 2007 10:09 AM
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Because it's peer-to-peer, and after hours, there's nothing school administrators - or concerned parents who object to other kids proselytizing their own children - can do about it.
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Posted by: Cthulhu on Apr 29, 2007 1:25 AM
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First of all when I tithe its not because some preacher has brain washed me or because it makes me a “Christian”. I tithe because it comes from my love for Jesus and it’s a recognition that he has given me the ability to make money and I intend give back to God what is his in the first place, whether it be through the church or a direct donation to a charity (If your pastor is buying expensive cars with offerings then he needs to be booted out and you need to do more research on who you’re giving your money to). Second, wars that are fought in the name of Jesus are not necessarily “of Jesus” (i.e. The Crusades). Third, Religion and following rules do not cause you to be saved. Its grace through Jesus Christ that is the deciding factor, I my self cannot create salvation by being a “good person” or following a set path of dos and don’ts. Fourth, I am not apart of the so called “Christian right”. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh, I think Pat Buchanan is very destructive to our country (and faith), and I believe Bush is one of our worst presidents ever. I also believe God intended for us to take care of the environment and I think Jesus’ name is used to sanction lame and destructive ideas. My relationship with Jesus is personal and my foundation is the Bible, not my local preacher. I know all of this is totally foreign and will probably be met with progressive intolerance . . . but oh well. This is my faith and I’m able to stand up and know in my heart and mind that I’m headed for a better place.
So you can lean on your own understanding, rant and rave all you want about how you think there is no God, and label Christians intolerant simpletons, but nothing will change the fact that Jesus is very real and he wants to come into your life.
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» Just you saying Jesus is real does not make that a fact
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: I thought Progressives were tolerant - and we are!. . .
Posted by: babaloo
» RE: I thought Progressives where supposed to be tolerant . . .
Posted by: talkville
» RELIGIOUS FOLKS MORE GENEROUS IN THEIR FREE WILL GIVING TO CHARITY THAN PROGRESSIVES
Posted by: poppop_schell
» REAL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: AL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: AL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: AL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Apr 29, 2007 6:44 PM
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I can't believe as old as this kind of thing is, no one in a position where they are supposed to worry about national security recognizes that this is a private fanatic army being built. Or have we nothing but cowards or Bush appointees in such places now?
Ian
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Posted by: sculptor on Apr 30, 2007 12:32 AM
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» RE: Let's make a law against this crap!
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
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Posted by: tom cady on May 1, 2007 1:46 PM
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the nation was, after all, christian
and so they began their crusade marching toward theocracy
and as they plodded the children wailed “are we there yet?”
and god whispered back “you're going the wrong way”
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Posted by: fay on May 10, 2007 12:29 PM
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Posted by: gouda on May 10, 2007 2:11 PM
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 24, 2007 12:53 AM
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It seems strange to me that those claiming to represent and follow Jesus forget or ignore the teaching that God is no respecter of persons (rules out race, ethnic and sexual bias), that we are to live in and seek peace, that we are to love and be merciful to even those who do not reciprocate, that we are to be forgiving and not judgmental and that every person is our brother or our sister. They do, however, love to twist and distort the Bible for their own repressed and repressive political and social agenda.
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» RE: Faux Faith
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Faux Faith
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Faux Faith..sickosleaze..good one!!!..I wish
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Faux Faith
Posted by: Vistalady
» RE: Faux Faith Redux
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: Vistalady
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: Koko
» RE: Faux Faith sickofsleaze.. but look
Posted by: Astroboy
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Apr 24, 2007 1:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thomas Merton
If all of us who profess to be "Christian" would only latch on to the Christianity of Thomas Merton, we would be more in tune to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He was a Trappist Monk who for twenty-seven years, between 1941 and 1968, rarely stepped outside the rural monastery in which he lived. So what could such a person possibly teach us about ourselves? As it tuns out, a whole lot. From the opening paragraph of his autobiography:
"On the last day of January 1915, under the sign of the Water Bearer, in the year of a great war and down in the shadow of some French mountains on the boarders of Spain, I came into the world. Free by nature, in the image of God, I was nevertheless the prisoner of my own violence and my own selfishness, in the image of the world into which I was born. That world was the picture of hell, full of men like myself, loving God and yet hating Him; born to love him, living instead in fear and hopeless and self-contradictory hungers".
In 1948, he was encouraged by the Abbot of the monastery he lived in, Our Lady of Gesthemanie outside Louisville, Kentucky to write his memoirs. Incredibly, the resulting effort, The Seven Storey Mountain, turned out to be one of the best selling books of the year. As Merton had been inspired by the events of the pre-war world to enter a life of contemplation, so were thousands of people of all faiths inspired by the events of the post-war world to question the very tenets of the so-called "American Century". Tom Merton not only planted the seeds that would eventually bear the fruit of what would evolve into the anti-war movement, re spoke out against racism at a time when most people didn't even know the meaning of the word.
He was vehemently anti-war even in times of relative peace:
"A letter arrives in the mail stamped with the slogan, 'The US ARMY: Key To Peace'. No 'great' nation has the key to anything but war. Power has nothing to do with peace. The more men build up military power, the more they violate peace and destroy it."
There is no question that in the year 2007, nearly forty years after his untimely death, Thomas Merton still matters. He reaches out to us across the decades, an articulate and passionate advocate for Peace and Love and Silence It was his prayerful belief that only by obliterating the noise of our lives - be it the electronic noise of our immediate surroundings or the noise of our minds - could we achieve a pure communion with God.
It would be nice if he were still here. Come to think of it, he is!
Pray for Peace.
Meditate for Peace.
Shout for Peace.
Be Silent for Peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY.
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
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» RE: Thomas Merton 1915-1968
Posted by: fitz1415m
» RE: Thomas Merton 1915-1968
Posted by: davidg
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 24, 2007 1:12 AM
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If you are stupid enough to be tricked into following some one else's rule, you get what you deserve. Tithe on the way out so the preacher/imam can buy a new Benz.
I want to read an article an Alternet that attacks islam the same way it does christainity. After all christains tell you, you are going to hell. muslims try to send you there.
(christain, muslim, islam, preacher, imam and christainity were left in lowercase intentionally to show disrespect to there beliefs in thaumaturgy)
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» RE: People are not forced to believe
Posted by: talkville
» You haven't been paying attention
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: You haven't been thinking
Posted by: MaxDelaney
» RE: People are not forced to believe
Posted by: hurshy43
» RE: People are not forced to believe, but too many are told they must.
Posted by: Pirate1
» RE: People are not forced to believe
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: People are not forced to believe sickofsleaze Is the day coming
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Apr 24, 2007 2:10 AM
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A previous commenter remarked that this was unfair persecution of Christians. Bullshit! Unless you are acknowledging that hardcore brainwashing/mind control is inherent to Christianity (an argument that could be made but the indoctrination of most sects is more subtle) this can't be construed as an attack on Christianity, but a technique of mind control. Similar techniques are used to create fanatics of all stripes - as the author pointed out.
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» RE: I was "love bombed" - and I misread a previous comment
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: I was "love bombed"
Posted by: WhatNow?
» RE: I was "love bombed"
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: I was "love bombed"
Posted by: glorybe
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Apr 24, 2007 2:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dorothy Day
February 1969
Dorothy Day was another person who was the personification of the word, "Christian". In the 1920's she and her spiritual mentor, the French peasant and philosopher, Peter Maurin, founded a newspaper called The Catholic Worker andthat in her time she was viewed by many to be a dangerous radical. She was consided such a menace that J. Edgar Hoover even kept a file on her....(Charlie Chaplin, Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King and John Lennon also had files - that's pretty good company to be in!)
Dorothy Day not only dedicated her life to the poor and disposessed, she lived among them and humbly counted herself as one of them. The newspaper that she and Maurin co-founded in 1929 was the on;y voice in its time for the downtrodden. It still survives to this day. Its price remains, as it has been since the day of its inception, a penny per copy.
In the early 1930's, in the midst of what we now call "the great depression" she opened up a free shelter for the homeless in New York City, the first of its kind. Name din the honor of the Blessed Mother, to whom she was so devoted, Mary House was a miracle of hope to a people who had previously viewed their situation as utterly hopeless. At a time when even "progessive" northern cities operated witin the framework of a Jim Crow mentality, there were absolutely no restrictions with respect to race or religion. The only requirement was that a person or family were in need of food or shelter. She also ran a soup kitchen that fed everyone who couldn't be housed due to lack of space. No one walked away from Mary House without, at the very least, a decent meal and a cup of coffee. Dorothy Day made a difference! Within a couple of years Mary Houses were opening up all over the United States.
They also founded Mary Farm in Newburgh, NY (fifteen miles from where I sit) that grew the crops that fed their beloved masses. It survives today as the Peter Maurin Farm, 41 Cemetery Road, Marlbourough, NY 12542. It is run by my friends, Tom and Monica Cornell, devoted friends of Dorothy who have dedicated thier lives to her memory and her mission.
Dorothy Day passed from this life on November 29, 1980 at the far-too-young age of 83. Our generationdesperately yearns for a person of her stature and saintliness. When one compares her to some of today's so-called "men of God" - the Jerry Fallwells and the Pat Robertsons - praying on national TV for tax relief for the richest two percent and calling for the assassination of ?Hugo Chavez, the duly elected leader of a sovereign nation - one wants to weep.
Jesus wept.
It's easy to speculate that the likes of Dorothy Day will never pass this way again - but we can hope can't we? Hope is all we have....and prayer.
Pray for peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
For a subscription, please contact:
The Catholic Worker
36 East 1st Street
NY, NY 10003
(212) 777-9617
(212) 677-8627
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» RE: Dorothy Day and The Catholic Worker Web site:
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Dorothy Day and The Catholic Worker
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: reval on Apr 24, 2007 3:45 AM
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Get up off our knees, stop cringing before bogeymen and virtual fathers, face reality, and help science to do something constructive about human suffering.
Teach your children to say the prayer five time a day - while facing reality!
Rev. El Mundo
Pastor WVCSR
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» quick, find a stone mason
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: eal conversion
Posted by: MaxDelaney
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Posted by: Allison on Apr 24, 2007 4:25 AM
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I know it's just a metaphor, but I'm reminded of the scene in Saved where Mandy Moore, angered that her friend is questioning evangelical Christianity, throws a Bible at her. The response - "THIS is not a weapon! You idiot!" - pretty much sums up my feelings about the EC's.
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» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: Vistalady
» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Happiness is a Warm Bible?!
Posted by: Vistalady
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Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Apr 24, 2007 4:33 AM
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And as other posters demonstrate, contrary to the article's incoherent first paragraph, there are all kinds of Christians.
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» RE: Jesus H. Christ, Alternet, please give it a rest
Posted by: jroth420
» I disagree: detailing the METHODS of mindcontrol is enlightening
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: I disagree: detailing the METHODS of mindcontrol is enlightening
Posted by: Lauren
» Unfortunately, affirmative
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: wawa on Apr 24, 2007 4:38 AM
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Jesus was NEVER a Christian.
The term was NOT even coined until the days of Paul, three decades after Christ walked the earth. Jesus was a social justice radical revolutionary PALESTINIAN devout Jewish Road Warrior who rose up/INTIFADA and challenged the job security of the Temple Authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths and sacrificing livestock for them to be OK with God; for God loved them just as they were; sinners, outcasts, diseased, cripples, widows, orphans, refugees, prisoners all enduring under OCCUPATION!
What got JC crucified was that he disturbed the status quo of the OCCUPYING forces by teaching such subversive concepts that God loved-even preferred the sinners, outcasts, diseased, cripples, widows, orphans, refugees, prisoners all enduring under OCCUPATION and that Cesar only had power, because God allowed it.
What Jesus REALLY said:
"I say to you, unless one is born of water* and spirit they cannot enter the kingdom of God…Do not be amazed that I have told you, 'You must be born from above.' The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the wound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:1-8
[*Water: Jesus' first miracle was at the wedding in Canna, when he changed the water into wine and kept the party going. ]
For every misunderstanding, every condemning thought, every negative vibration, every tear torn from a heart, every time one grabbed and wouldn’t let go, and they only did it because they did not know:
The Divine is within all creation and within all women and men.
And every tiny kindness you have ever done, every gentle word spoken, every time you held your tongue, every positive thought, every smile freely given, every helping hand that opens, helps bring in the kingdom:
And the kingdom comes from above, and it comes from within.
Imagine a kingdom of sisterhood of all creatures and all men.
eileen fleming
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» Yet again, Jesus was NOT the precusor to the PLO/Hamas, whatever...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: From the Christian Left
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Jesus is a concoction
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: wawa on Apr 24, 2007 4:45 AM
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Stage one upon this journey -that begins from within-is essentially our infancy in the spiritual life. Like a wild child, a person in this stage reflects the inner chaotic and anti-social, unregenerate soul that is interested only in its own self-satisfaction and ego, much like the stereotypical spoiled child. Stage one people may claim to love others, but their behavior reflects they love their own pleasure, money, power, prestige, and security above any other. For stage one people, it really is all about them.
The good news is that the vast majority of humanity responds to that inner tug which is God, for lack of a better word. Katherine of Sienna wrote that within us all is the divine diamond. But life and all our baggage dulls the flame of our divine brilliance.
Stage two souls seek to "let their light shine" and will live virtuous lives and do many good works. They also can be judgmental of others, self-righteous, rigid of thought, cold of heart, legalistic concrete literal thinkers and may even be guilty of a lukewarm faith. They want to do right and they even may desire to love and please God, but have not yet fully opened up to the Inner Light, as Joan of Ark did when she challenged church and state and persisted that she had intuited God within -even while being fried.
Stage two souls have not yet been set fully free and prefer the security of a higher human authority than themselves for guidance. They submit to institutions, scripture, dogma, ritual, ministers, or gurus. This is the most appropriate stage for older children and most adults who live busy lives just trying to keep bread on the table and a dry roof above.
The difference between a stage one and stage two soul, is that a one wouldn't even notice a neighbor in need, while the two has awoken to the fact that we are to be our neighbor's keepers and they will respond to a friend-and like the good Samaritan, even to a total stranger in need.
Most theologians would agree that the opposite of faith is not disbelief: the opposite of faith is fear. Stage three souls have not just fearlessly awoken, they have evolved!
This evolution has led them to the realization of what Christ was really talking about in the Sermon of the Mount/The Beatitudes.
A stage three soul may well reject Christ as God, but often agree with the philosophy of Jesus...
Stage 3 and 4 souls can be read about April 21 WAWA Blog:
http://www.wearewideawake.org
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» RE: stage 2 souls will fall for a cult
Posted by: tap17x
» RE: stage 2 souls will fall for a cult
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: stage 2 souls will fall for a cult
Posted by: EncinoM
» absolute faith and trust is for babies
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: absolute faith and trust is for babies
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: rosjoypa on Apr 24, 2007 4:50 AM
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Religions gain accretions of untruths which become 'tradition', far removed from any original belief.
It was always so and will always be so. Unfortunately we humans are a gullible lot..
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Posted by: eric555 on Apr 24, 2007 4:54 AM
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APOSTATE.....Look it up.
This article does not expose anything new. Christians have been fighting people like D. James Kennedy for 2000 years. He and his kind will always be out there. There will allways be people with itchy ears wanting to hear what they have to say.
The sad part is that he give Hedges and others an excuse to label Christianity a cult and dismiss it. Dismissing Christianity because of people like Kennedy is like dismissing America because of people like George Bush.
Truth exists for those who are not afraid to look for it.
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» Dismissing Christianity because of people like Kennedy is like dismissing America because of people
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» you may have missed it
Posted by: hurshy43
» Who told us that we "must be born again" to be a follower of religious turths?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Jesus said "born again" to Nicodemus, but did not mention it to any large crowd
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Who told us that we "must be born again" to be a follower of religious truths?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: you may have missed it - Hedges Is Correct
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: you may have missed it - Hedges Is Correct
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: eric555
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: mythbuster
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: eric555
» RE: you may have missed it
Posted by: mythbuster
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Apr 24, 2007 4:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious 'conversion', its application, its adherence, attendance of church, watching televangelists, giving your money away, etc., is at its simplest only about power and control. It's as basic as that.
All of the people at the top of the religious food chain are totally and completely aware of that fact. They apply those facts to their recruits. They are conscious of HOW to perform the conversion. They know what power and control is and how to manipulate the weak-minded. They use tried and true methods of conversion, immersion, passion, and focus. Everywhere you hear about these people you hear and see the exact same thing. Religion is about power and control and NOTHING else. It's not about good vs. evil because that is a religious dichotomy made up by religious people. Good vs. evil doesn't exist - it is a CONSTRUCT built out of the House of Dust called religion. Religion is not about 'going to Heaven' because Heaven is a construct built out of myths almost too old to properly identify. It is not about the End Times because the End Times is an abject lie designed to fool people into giving up EVERYTHING to the leaders. Everything such as your assets, the last shred of your sanity, and your objective reality.
As long as people insist on having an external locus of control they can be manipulated by so-called religious leaders. I recommend that people develop a good solid internal locus of control so that they can see precisely where the center of their reality lies. Until that happens en masse people will continue to cling to their misemotional states of awareness and push the rest of us closer to a nuclear wasteland - all because they are so wrapped up in their narcissistic emotional problems which they insist on foisting on the rest of us.
Can you say Prozac?
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» RE: Power and Control
Posted by: Xynyx
» Athiests cannot be controlled of others like religious people are
Posted by: poppop_schell
» religious folks are trained to swallow, atheists are trained to think critically
Posted by: counterpoint
» Agnostics, Not Atheists, Are the True Critical Thinkers.
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Agnostics, Not Atheists, Are the True Critical Thinkers.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: religious folks are trained to swallow, atheists are trained to think critically
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Athiests cannot be controlled of others like religious people are
Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: Athiests cannot be controlled of others like religious people are
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 24, 2007 5:23 AM
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I met Rev. Graham in 1965 during my active duty USAF years. The first thing I noticed were his clothes. Billy gave new meaning to the phrase, "Dressed to the Nines," with a suit that clearly cost more than my monthly first lieutenant’s salary and shoes I couldn't afford, even as an Air Force captain.
Fifteen years later, while flying 727s for Continental Airlines, Jesse Jackson was a First Class passenger on my plane. During cruise while visiting the forward cabin, again I couldn’t help noticing a famous religious leader's attire. Despite being a well-paid airline pilot, I could tell Jesse's wardrobe was way beyond my clothing budget.
Here's my point. Religious organizations in the United States are run like corporations with leaders enjoying excellent salaries, generous benefits and well-funded retirement plans that most working Americans could not imagine much less ever enjoy. And like corporations, to attract customers (church members) to finance their upper-class life styles, they have adopted the necessary recruiting tactics. Simply put, for people who run religious organizations in the United States, "Praise the Lord" often means worshipping money, not God.
I will end my comment now and continue waiting for someone on this thread to name a living famous, non-wealthy religious leader.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption. AlterNet readers who object to my NON-PROFIT campaign to expose President Bush as a lying crook can email me through the website rather than comment here.
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» you forgot to mention tax exempt
Posted by: fuzypupy
» You're right, fuzypupy. ABSURD tax relief for churches did slip my mind.
Posted by: HughScott
» Good Points, Mr. Scott
Posted by: Aimleft
» Sadly for the truly religious, leaders like Jackson have used the Bible as an easy way to success.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Good Points, Mr. Scott
Posted by: aussidawg
» Televangelist's dog lives in air conditioning
Posted by: fanny666
» To fanny 666. NON-profit means virtually no taxes on church leaders which we pay for.
Posted by: HughScott
» praying for a new Learjet
Posted by: counterpoint
» $21 million, of course
Posted by: counterpoint
» The Dalai Lama not only...
Posted by: Wesley69
» RE: The Dalai Lama not only...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» These guys are hardly famous. NM
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: These guys are hardly famous. NM
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: fork
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Shohaku Okumura
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: so then, where are
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: so then, where are
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: so then, where are
Posted by: poppop_schell
» DO GOOD NO MATTER WAHT!!!
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Name one famous U.S. church leader who's NOT wealhy.
Posted by: Lauren
» A Church Leader INVARIABLY demands 10 percent of your income to SAVE you.
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: A Church Leader INVARIABLY demands 10 percent of your income to SAVE you.
Posted by: poppop_schell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jim on Apr 24, 2007 5:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christians usually look to 1 Corinthians 13 for a definition of love:
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.
So real love from Christians, is not just to potential converts, but forever. Literally.
Love does not insist on its own way. It gives the other freedom. Galatians 5.1: "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." This is not submitting to a "preacher who steps in to take over one's life."
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» RE: eal love brings freedom
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: eal love brings freedom
Posted by: aussidawg
» Amen
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: crystaldave on Apr 24, 2007 5:57 AM
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"The Authoritarians" by Bob Altemeyer.
http://members.shaw.ca/perchaluk/drbob/chapter1.pdf
It's a long read but totally worth it. A thorough deconstruction of authoritarians, and more importantly, their followers. A must read for anyone who wants to know more about what we're up against...
Jesus, Save me from your followers!
Love and Light,
Crystal Dave (The Wizard of Wyrd)
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» Thanks for the Link!
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 24, 2007 6:10 AM
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» RE: I'm all amused at the Christians
Posted by: metavurt
» RE: I'm all amused at the Christians
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» This country is cowering more and more.....
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: I'm all amused at the Christians
Posted by: calguy
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Apr 24, 2007 7:01 AM
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But I never did hear from them again when I didn't agree to buy one of their seminars. Gee. I thought they liked me.
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Posted by: Xynyx on Apr 24, 2007 7:06 AM
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Mikhail Bakunin
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» RE: Bakunin
Posted by: hellofriends
» Mother Teresa was a right wing lunatic obsessed with conversion and abortion
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: peritonlogon on Apr 24, 2007 7:12 AM
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» RE: Just a thought
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Just a thought
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Just a thought
Posted by: Xynyx
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Posted by: jpetty on Apr 24, 2007 8:21 AM
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» Mormons gloss over their own "faith" when it suits them,
Posted by: Sharoney
» RE: Mormons gloss over their own "faith" when it suits them,
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 24, 2007 9:56 AM
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I think it's important for people to put this current movement into historical context. Biblical arguments were made by Southern "Conservative Christians" to justify slavery- that was one of their main arguments at the time it was becoming a serious debate in the US. Google BIBLE SLAVERY and you'll find all kinds of perspectives on that, but you can dig up some very telling quotes from anti-abolitionists if you look.
Also, think about the most common slang for gays: "faggots" or "flamers". Why? A faggot is a bundle of sticks, right? Hmmm.... sticks and flames... it comes from the practice of burning gays at the stake, in a "righteous cleansing fire."
God hates flaming faggots
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» Meanwhile, today on FoxNews.com...
Posted by: fanny666
» Too short
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 24, 2007 10:33 AM
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» RE: ed Brown and Blue Party comment
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: counterpoint on Apr 24, 2007 11:01 AM
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» RE: they prey upon the vulnerable
Posted by: grolan
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Apr 24, 2007 11:46 AM
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The author of this article was not a member of the “choir” and these training seminars he attended were not “preaching” to him. While his point-of-view as an outsider no doubt gives him an interesting perspective on religious indoctrination, his analysis is fatally weighted down with his prejudices and preconceptions.
For those of us in the public relations business, this sort of thing is nothing new. Two of the guiding principles of effective public relations illustrate my point:
Always tailor your message to your target audience.
Perception IS Reality.
Right up front, I’ll concede something that has always been true of both religion and ideologies like fascism, communism and environmentalism: no matter how good or just the idea or the belief may be, evil men will twist it to achieve their ends.
But if people like Martin Luther King or Dietrich Bonhoeffer are any indication, there really is such a thing as the genuine article. These people are rare, and often it is hard even for the wise to tell the difference between them and posers like Ted Haggerty and Jimmy Swaggart.
The early church was successful because believers knew the importance of “tailoring their message to their target audience in order to avoid the awful danger of misperception.” The most successful early believer to apply these fundamentals of public relations was Saul of Tarsus (aka the Apostle Paul).
“Except for these chains..”
When Paul spoke to unbelievers like King Agrippa, he limited his discourse to his own conversation experience on the road to Damascus. Plus he only spoke about his faith WHEN ASKED TO DO SO by Agrippa.
When Paul finished, Agrippa famously quipped that in a short time Paul would seek to convert him. Paul’s response: Yes indeed, he hoped that Agrippa would “become as we are, except for these chains.”
When Paul spoke to Jews in the synagogues, he spoke as a Jew (“a Pharisee of Pharisees”), reading from the Torah and offering an interpretation of the reading, much as Jesus did (“today in your hearing this scripture is fulfilled.”) His fellow Jews didn’t like his interpretations of the Torah, and repeatedly sought his death.
But when Paul wrote to the churches he had founded in Corinth, Ephesus and Thessalonica, he tailored his letters to the specific needs of these churches. For example, the church at Corinth needed discipline because a member of the congregation was sleeping with his step-mother.
The letters of Paul “preached to the choir,” instructing believers in the doctrines of their faith and teaching them how to live the Christian life – which they had FREELY CHOSEN. (Manipulation and brainwashing do not constitute either “free” or “choice.”)
The problem with the church today is that Paul’s example has been turned on its ear. Instead of following Paul’s example with King Agrippa and waiting to be asked, believers corner nonbelievers and demand that they “turn or burn, fly or fry.” Instead of limiting their discourse to their own personal testimony of conversion, they cast judgment on nonbelievers and quote passages from Paul’s letters that were intended ONLY FOR THOSE WHO HAD FREELY CHOSEN TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
COMMENTS CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Apr 24, 2007 11:47 AM
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This situation gets exponentially worse when such judgmental behavior gets exploited by brainwashers liken Jim Jones and Pat Robertson and self-serving politicians and Machiavellian hacks like Carl Rove. Believers would do well to remember the advice of their Messiah on these matters: remove the log from your own eye before judging the splinter in your brother’s eye. Or even better, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
What a believer freely chooses to do is between him and his God. Try to keep it there, brother. Set a good example and the nonbelievers in your life might just get curious and ask you about your faith. Don’t be a patsy for the Carl Roves and the Pat Robertsons of the world, who wouldn’t know how to be their brother’s keeper if their lives depended on it.
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Posted by: ohb0b on Apr 24, 2007 12:05 PM
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Fundamentalism offers easy answers to life's problems, there is a set of rules, everything is divided into good or evil, black or white, there are no nuances or exceptions. This is a very enticing arguement to someone who is sorting things out.
The fundies recruit people who are in life's crises and crossroads; divorce, job loss, drug addiction/alcoholism, graduating school, etc. One of my professors at CFNI put it best when he said "no one comes to God when they are fat, dumb, and happy. This is not entirely bad, fundamentalism is a highly effective treatment for addictive diseases, for example, and faith can give a person direction and purpose in life.
The problem is you must surrender your mind to a God's authority on earth: the preacher, the Pope, the Imam who has all the answers. When one is acutely vulnerable to fundy assault, it is just a matter of which one gets there first. I compare itr to a person who has no automotive knowledge taking their car into the shop, and telling the mechanic to "just fix it," and send me the bill. It is easy to become mentally lazy.
The believer is also counseled to throw away what remains of his intellect, and "come to Jesus as a little child." Another allegory is that of being a "sheep." They revel in what most people consider an insult!
Once the mind is disengaged, it becomes a blank slate, but it is not blank for long. Because believers are so easily manipulated is what makes this so dangerous. A friendly pol comes along, and uses many of the fundamentalist recruiting techniques against them, showering them with affection, listening to their story, showing empathy, etc. Presto! instant voting bloc!
The anti-intellectual nature of fundamentalism also directly plays hand-inhand to the "redneck" culture, what we used to call "country dumb;" those city slickers think they're so smart. Of course now, the city slickers have become the "liberal elite." It just becomes a matter of convincing the hicks that you really are a slow talkin' Texas cowpoke. Doesn't anyone else see through this facade? Hilliary can't get away with it, but somehow W can.
The second thing Hedges leaves out is the fundamentalist believes his particular sect holds a monopoly on truth, wisdom, and morality. That is why arguing with a fundy is so difficult. He can simply disregard any opposing debate as invalid because it doesn't come from his sources. You also can't know the truth, as you don't have the "spirit" to guide you. So, you can't even argue from scripture that presents an opposing view.
Along with this world view comes a persecution complex. Not to minimize the genuine persecution and martyrdom that has occurred throughout the centuries, but simple disagreement with your religious beliefs, and yes, even ridicule is not exactly being tossed to the lions. But it becomes a handy wedge issue. A cracker judge posts the Ten Commandments in his courtroom, the local ACLU files suit against a manger scene in the village square quickly becomes evidence of persucution. Again, easily exploitable wedge issues for your friendly pol. Sometimes it is just too easy.
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» RE: Ohb0b, Seattle
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Ohb0b, Seattle
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Ohb0b, Seattle
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» Hedges has a Master of Divinity from Harvard, is a minister's son, and a Christian
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Hedges has a Master of Divinity from Harvard, is a minister's son, and a Christian
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: harpy on Apr 24, 2007 12:04 PM
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Posted by: harpy on Apr 24, 2007 12:19 PM
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» Born again progressives are a bulwark against American fascism
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: wleming on Apr 24, 2007 12:55 PM
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self help, motivational, and sales courses. Capitalism
has been quick to capitalise on the words of sales guru
Bruce Barton who said, simply: "Christ was the greatest
salesman who ever lived."
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» RE: sales techniques
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: jims713 on Apr 24, 2007 1:09 PM
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» for a reason: 12 step programs have a religious underpinning
Posted by: counterpoint
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Posted by: kenhymes on Apr 24, 2007 1:12 PM
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Anti-religious posters: you have thoroughly demonstrated your contempt for the 90% of the earth's population who believe, whether you like it or not, in invisible things. You dismiss anyone who seeks to broaden your awareness of what is going on in the Christian faith in America. Likewise, you scorn anyone who attempts to broaden the discussion about what public life based on science and mercantilism might look like in practice, as opposed to in theory (praxis versus "scripture" applies here, too, not only in religious history). More critically, for anyone who is interested in the success of the essential economic justice argument the left has to offer, you ignore the history of the left's own successes in American history, which have always involved a significant involvement of people who believe in God.
Childishly, you believe that you can change a culture as you insult it and laugh at it. Arrogantly, you believe that your brains are bigger than those of Einstein, who was a believer. Astoundingly, you find a way of separating the history of resistance from the actual life histories and motives of its practitioners, people like Ghandhi, Martin Luther King, the Quakers, the Sanctuary movement of the 80's. None of these people were perfect, and naturally you are free to reject their cosmologies, which were not monolithic, but diverse. But to assert that you, the angry, ranting mob of the blogosphere, are better equipped, more farseeing, more rational than people such as these to engender change for justice and peace in this world: it's simply absurd.
You can mock all you want, you can pretend that a progressive Christian is an oxymoron: I'm a Christian, and I support equal rights for gays and lesbians, I support labor rights, I support serious restrictions on industrial pollution, national health care, and I believe in God and the saving grace of Jesus Christ. It doesn't need to make sense to you, any more than your belief that life and consciousness are chemical accidents needs to make sense to me. That's why we have a pluralistic democracy, at least in theory. Making it one in practice means respecting difference. It's such a basic thing, isn't it: two wrongs don't make a right - the fact that a sector of the population (and by the way Alternet ALWAYS accepts the self-claims of that sector as to its influence and number at face value) is routinely insulting to gays, atheists, and others, and seeks to promote its agenda in extra-constitutional ways simply does not make it okay to do the same thing in reverse. All this talk of "banning religion" or "eliminating faith from public discourse" is, well... un-American. And it's just stupid and counterproductive for the left to be engaging in this kind of chatter.
It is easy to notice the fundies, because they are loud and public in their political efforts. Leftist Christians don't tend (until very recently) to set up faith-based political organizations, they simply work through the ones that are already there, precisely because they don't reject allies based on their theology or lack of it. Doesn't that sound like a pretty good idea for the left as a whole?
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» RE: So far off base
Posted by: delbard
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: xgroverx
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» You still can't see the forest for the trees, poppop
Posted by: Beck
» RE: You still can't see the forest for the trees, poppop
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: wishninja
» RE: "pray at sporting events"
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: "pray at sporting events"
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: sporting event prayer? Jesus said public prayer was what hypocrites do
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: No, he condemned it and forbade it. Rightwing Americans just hate that.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» we are NOT one happy family (part one)
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: we are NOT one happy family (part two
Posted by: counterpoint
» WHAT WOULD ATHIEST DO IF THEY REPRESENTED 90% OF THE PEOPLE?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: we are NOT one happy family (part one)
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: we are NOT one happy family (part one)
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: So far off base
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Thank you
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: Wesley69 on Apr 24, 2007 1:33 PM
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Posted by: ear3 on Apr 24, 2007 1:48 PM
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Another distinction is between the process of conversion and integration into the community and the authoritarian structure of said community. Many of the "tactics" described are not inherently devious. I'm thinking, for example, of the immediate love and friendship offered to people in twelve-step fellowships or other support groups. Of course, this comparison points to the fact that religious conversion is much more an emotional and spiritual phenomenon, usually following a crisis of some sort, where intellectualizing the problem doesn't quite cut it. The end to which these conversion tactics are put makes the difference I think. Is it aimed a separating the person off from his previous milieu, and inculcating a set of elite and exclusive (as well as exclusionary) values? Or is it just to provide a safe haven in which to find refuge from a real trauma and pain, in which the person may indeed form new friendships and contacts in a way they might never have been capable of?
It is easy to mock Christian fundamentalists, but in many ways this just reinforces their belief in the vanity and corruption of the world. Our mockery will also not change the contemporary prevalence of religious zeal, nor its historical importance for some clearly exemplary achievements (Civil Rights?!).
I think the goal should be to find points of common contact between progressives and religious groups. Imagine how potent a force it would be to have evangelicals on the side of environmentalists? This is not far-fetched, given last year's statement of the National Association of Evangelicals that global climate change was a moral issue, and fell under the Biblical principle of man's stewardship over the Earth.
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» RE: Important distinctions
Posted by: poppop_schell
» we need both contact and avoidance
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: we need both contact and avoidance
Posted by: ear3
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Posted by: The Big Raven on Apr 24, 2007 2:10 PM
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 24, 2007 2:43 PM
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Judge Christianity by Christ and the life He led and died, not from His imperfect followers, and certainly not from the bastards and pretenders and demons using and pretending at Christianty for power and profit above all.
All religions, all economic systems, all political systems, can be and will be co-opted by evil. Nothing man does is immune, no system is perfect.
Judge a belief system by its founder's works, not by its adherents, and certainly not by its obviously false pretended and claimed adherents.
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» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: poppop_schell
» getting through to indoctrinated people is often impossible
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: getting through to indoctrinated people is often impossible
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: vangelism was one of the earliest assaults ON True Christianity
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» WHAT IS MEANT BY PATRONIZING?
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: ARTLADY on Apr 24, 2007 4:16 PM
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The behavior of those doing the brainwashing is nothing short of fascist. The people they are brainwashing appear to believe they are accepting new and refreshed religious beliefs, renewing and solidifying old religious beliefs and becoming part of a new and loving group of people.
I think now I understand why a certain percentage of the American public are walking around in a coma, oblivious to truth.
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» RE: Christian Right Uses Cult-like 'Love Bomb' Tactics
Posted by: poppop_schell
» my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: Beck
» RE: my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: Beck
» RE: my 7-year-old nephew used to sob every night because he was taught his friends were hellbound
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: ARTLADY on Apr 24, 2007 4:24 PM
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I wonder what the brainwashed sheeple who have unwittingly been participating in fascism will do when the truth is fully exposed and they finally realize they were suckered by a religion that isn't religion at all?
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» RE: Christian Right Uses Cult-like 'Love Bomb' Tactics
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Christian Right Uses Cult-like 'Love Bomb' Tactics - Like Poppup_schell?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: when people realize they've been conned...
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: KUCING on Apr 24, 2007 5:07 PM
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Posted by: The Wise Synic on Apr 24, 2007 5:44 PM
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 24, 2007 7:59 PM
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5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God (NOT SOME MINISTER), that giveth to ALL men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it SHALL (NOT MAYBE) be given him.
6 BUT (here are the conditions for getting an answer)
let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
This boy believed that promise and went and prayed and was visited by Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ who told him NOT to join ANY church because they spoke about Him with their lips but their hearts were FAR from Him, teaching for commandments the philosophies of man mixed with scripture.
In 1830 the Mormon Church started and restored the pure truths of Jesus Christ to the earth in preparation for His 2nd Coming. All are invited to join in this great last days gathering. All are also free to totally reject this great message. Free agency reigns in God's Kingdom.
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» RE: ALL THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE FALSE.... BUT ONE!!!!
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: ALL THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE FALSE.... BUT ONE!!!!
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Schell: "Yes, Mormoins are social conservatives. . ."
Posted by: fork
» RE: Schell: "Yes, Mormoins are social conservatives. . ."
Posted by: poppop_schell
» there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: goatini
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: well, your friend should look at the bright side
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: well, your friend PART TWO
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: having your cake and eating it too
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: having your cake and eating it too
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: there he goes again - Joseph Snakeoil Peddler Smith would be proud of you
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: Abandoned on Apr 24, 2007 8:25 PM
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I am astonished at the similarities between the tactics described here, and those employed by Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programs, the only difference is that they use their own literature, "The Big Book" instead of the bible.
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» RE: 12 step love bombing
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: xgroverx on Apr 24, 2007 9:29 PM
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Posted by: lessbread on Apr 24, 2007 9:38 PM
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According to Bruce Wilson: For years, hundreds of millions of dollars, at least, in Unification Church money has bought influence among American politicians and journalists, and top leaders of the Christian right... (Right Wing rumor mill funded by Shark Poaching Ring?).
Might it be possible that these "love bombers" aren't really Christians at all but Moonies in disguise?
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» Rev Moon has bought off Bush 41, and owns the money losing Wash Times to exert influence
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: ev Moon has bought off Bush 41, and owns the money losing Wash Times to exert influence
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: doctorsquared on Apr 24, 2007 9:44 PM
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 24, 2007 11:30 PM
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Think of church and most religions as the original social networking hubs of the world. You go and make connections, network with people who can benefit you in some way. It's a community.
Personally I'm an atheist but I have known atheists who have attended church for the fringe benefits while remaining complete atheists. They tended to have the "American dream" and much of it was attributable directly to their involvement with the church.
Kind of interesting how that works.
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Posted by: govindas on Apr 25, 2007 1:00 AM
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Most saintly persons have adopted such method,and abandoned old ways of living,that allow all sorts of offenses to living entities and to oneself.
The disciple in Krishna's cult vows to stop such activities,though it is quite difficult to do so.Stopping eating meat,gambling and smoking are not so difficult,but stopping sexual activities is quite difficult,but not impossible.
It sounds,for those who have not experienced any spiritual training,that such control is detrimental to one's character,and real life is to do whatever our mind asks us,but just look around and see the disasters caused by free-minded people:they are in deep despair,and even they have wealth,they sometimes commit suicide,due to the demands of the senses,that are not fulfilled.
When I was younger,I used also to believe in total freedom of action and mind,but with time,I'm so glad that I somewhat can control my urges,and concentrate on higher values.It just needs practice,and can last lifetimes or just some years,according to one's intensity in spiritual life.Those who succeed,do get a very peaceful departure from this world of suffering,as they have at least tried to evolve towards the Supreme Intelligent Being.
http://asitis.com Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prabhupada
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Posted by: Ripcord on Apr 25, 2007 7:51 AM
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I ocassionally go to a Seven Day Adventist Church--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
I teach a tai chi class at a Luthern Church--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
I've gone to Mormon Churches--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
Jehovah Witnesses stop by the house once a month--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
I've done zazen at Buddhist temples--
no pressure, no hard-sales tactics
What? Are you afraid to smile at another human being,
shake their hands, hug them?
All this anti-this, anti-that wears thin.
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» RE: negative over-generalizations
Posted by: kenhymes
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Posted by: thirdmg on Apr 25, 2007 8:59 AM
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Poppup_schell is using AlterNet for free advertising to proselytize for the Mormon Church, which often cooperates with the rest of the religious right on a variety of issues. He is not here just to inform, as he sometimes claims. He is clearly here to promote his religion and to find potential converts. He is, in fact, by his own description, a dedicated Mormon missionary who himself became a convert in the Sixties.
You need only check the messages posted by poppup_schell throughout AlterNet to see that promoting the Mormon religion is ultimately the only reason that he posts here. In short, he is spamming AlterNet's readers for the benefit his religion.
Isn't it time to call a halt to the use and abuse of these boards for such tactics?
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» RE: balance a virtue
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: balance a virtue
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Hatred Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: balance a virtue - But Naivete Is Not
Posted by: thirdmg
» RE: balance a virtue - But Naivete Is Not
Posted by: poppop_schell
» Speech, dialogue and discussion
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: kittyhegemann on Apr 25, 2007 1:48 PM
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Posted by: iggy on Apr 25, 2007 4:31 PM
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Read the Bible for yourself, and listen to absolutely nobody else's interpretations of it. Many churches, evangelist groups, Christian schools and television programs, will all twist it to their own liking.
Romans 7 and 8 is an interesting read about the downside of religion and rules. (However, that's my interpretation)
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Apr 26, 2007 10:42 AM
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The writer could choose to really elucidate the ways in which the Right castrates and pollutes faith. Instead, the writer simply blasts the faith itself.
He writes:
"Freedom from fear, especially the fear of death, is what is being sold. It is a lie, as everyone has to know on some level..."
Really? What empirical evidence does he present for this assertion? It is the long death of the spirit apart from the Maker from which Christians are assured salvation. One may believe it or not. If it is true -- and I am persuaded that it is, I gain everything. If it is not -- and I am not persuaded that this is so -- I lose nothing.
In the meantime, I am guided by some sound principles of living -- utterly smeared and distorted by this writer -- and a peace which the God of Love gives us.
I'll take it.
Peace.
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Posted by: thirdmg on Apr 26, 2007 11:07 AM
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The reality of the effectiveness of conversion tactics in general can't be ignored. As pointed out in an In These Times article, How to Turn Your Red State Blue:
"..the improbable fact about missionary activity is that it works, regardless of the faith's specific dogma. Mormons are the fastest-growing church in the country. Evangelical protestant congregations make up 58 percent of all new churches in the United States. Globally, Islam continues to reach into new and unfamiliar lands, experiencing explosive growth in China. Religions that actively proselytize — Pentecostals, Mormons, Muslims — grow, almost without exception."
The question is what to do when an increasing growth in conversions to religious right sects in our country threatens to undermine and replace democratic, tolerant, secular institutions with religious authoritarianism.
Just as the political left wasted decades before developing an effective counterpart to the political right's noise machine, so the religious and secular left have been slow in creating an effective counterpart to the religious right. The religious right's triumph in making itself (a minority) the standard for religious values in America by means of its scorched-earth attacks against reason and science and social changes is what's fueling an increasingly anti-religious response from secularists and others. Already, some are anticipating stronger retaliatory actions, as in the following tit-for-tat response to the suggestion by a fundamentalist minister that gays should be eliminated in the womb:
Pre-natal Elimination Of Fundamentalists? - "Before you dismiss this question as hypothetical or academic, consider that research into the origins of spirituality is a robust field of inquiry. There are currently about a dozen studies that show shared personality traits among religious people, suggesting a genetic or biological basis."
If the religious left is disturbed by the increase in anti-religious sentiment, maybe it should focus its attention on the cause of the sentiment - the religious right - instead of attacking the secular or non-religious left, which isn't trying to subvert our institutions.
And, if the left, religious or otherwise, hopes to create a strong defense against the religious right's creation of a separate society designed ultimately to gain dominance over mainstream society, then maybe the left should seriously consider developing an integrated, methodical response - involving the funding of foundations, think tanks, scientific studies, etc. - dedicated to countering and uprooting authoritarian religion.
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» RE: Hedges Has Warned Us - Now What?
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: werewolf on Apr 27, 2007 5:55 AM
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It is to earn their own daily BREAD and other benefits that is of more concern to the Church leaders than to 'SAVE' any souls from Jesus' fiery hell. And coming to think of hell wouldn't you be horrified if CIVILIZED Christians were to cast their enemies into burning pits? Why do Christians excuse their god for TORTURE that they would not excuse another human being to commit?
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» RE: emember that Church leaders will resort to anything to convert you to be a 'TRUE' Christian
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: emember that Church leaders will resort to anything to convert you to be a 'TRUE' Christian
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: emember that Church leaders will resort to anything to convert you to be a 'TRUE' Christian
Posted by: poppop_schell
» How is your Jesus diffeent from the Jesus of the Bible?
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: How is your Jesus diffeent from the Jesus of the Bible?
Posted by: poppop_schell
» How is your Jesus different from the Jesus of the Bible?
Posted by: werewolf
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Posted by: davidg on Apr 27, 2007 11:38 AM
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» RE: read Karen Armstrong
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: glorybe on Apr 27, 2007 10:06 PM
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Posted by: werewolf on Apr 28, 2007 1:51 AM
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Bush has Jesus on his side. True Christians who claim they are against Bush for creating Guantanamo Bay are only being hypocrites. If they support Jesus for the creation of the worst torture chamber, the fiery Hell, they cannot honestly say they are against barbaric practices like torture. Period!
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» RE: If Jesus were to come today
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: If Jesus were here today - he'd cast out the torturers!
Posted by: babaloo
» RE: If Jesus were here today - he'd cast out the torturers!
Posted by: poppop_schell
» If Jesus owns Hell, then he cannot point at any torture chamber created by man as unjustified!
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: If Jesus owns Hell, then he cannot point at any torture chamber created by man as unjustified!
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: Sharoney on Apr 28, 2007 10:09 AM
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Because it's peer-to-peer, and after hours, there's nothing school administrators - or concerned parents who object to other kids proselytizing their own children - can do about it.
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Posted by: Cthulhu on Apr 29, 2007 1:25 AM
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First of all when I tithe its not because some preacher has brain washed me or because it makes me a “Christian”. I tithe because it comes from my love for Jesus and it’s a recognition that he has given me the ability to make money and I intend give back to God what is his in the first place, whether it be through the church or a direct donation to a charity (If your pastor is buying expensive cars with offerings then he needs to be booted out and you need to do more research on who you’re giving your money to). Second, wars that are fought in the name of Jesus are not necessarily “of Jesus” (i.e. The Crusades). Third, Religion and following rules do not cause you to be saved. Its grace through Jesus Christ that is the deciding factor, I my self cannot create salvation by being a “good person” or following a set path of dos and don’ts. Fourth, I am not apart of the so called “Christian right”. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh, I think Pat Buchanan is very destructive to our country (and faith), and I believe Bush is one of our worst presidents ever. I also believe God intended for us to take care of the environment and I think Jesus’ name is used to sanction lame and destructive ideas. My relationship with Jesus is personal and my foundation is the Bible, not my local preacher. I know all of this is totally foreign and will probably be met with progressive intolerance . . . but oh well. This is my faith and I’m able to stand up and know in my heart and mind that I’m headed for a better place.
So you can lean on your own understanding, rant and rave all you want about how you think there is no God, and label Christians intolerant simpletons, but nothing will change the fact that Jesus is very real and he wants to come into your life.
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» Just you saying Jesus is real does not make that a fact
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» RE: I thought Progressives were tolerant - and we are!. . .
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» RE: I thought Progressives where supposed to be tolerant . . .
Posted by: talkville
» RELIGIOUS FOLKS MORE GENEROUS IN THEIR FREE WILL GIVING TO CHARITY THAN PROGRESSIVES
Posted by: poppop_schell
» REAL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
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» RE: AL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
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» RE: AL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
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» RE: AL PROGRESIVES DO NOT PUBLICISE WHAT THEY GIVE TO CHARITY UNLIKE THE PUBLICITY SEEKING FAITHFUL
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Apr 29, 2007 6:44 PM
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I can't believe as old as this kind of thing is, no one in a position where they are supposed to worry about national security recognizes that this is a private fanatic army being built. Or have we nothing but cowards or Bush appointees in such places now?
Ian
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Posted by: sculptor on Apr 30, 2007 12:32 AM
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» RE: Let's make a law against this crap!
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
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Posted by: tom cady on May 1, 2007 1:46 PM
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the nation was, after all, christian
and so they began their crusade marching toward theocracy
and as they plodded the children wailed “are we there yet?”
and god whispered back “you're going the wrong way”
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Posted by: fay on May 10, 2007 12:29 PM
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Posted by: gouda on May 10, 2007 2:11 PM
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