TheNation.com / By John Nichols
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 313

'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre

Instead of applying for a gun permit in reaction to the Va Tech massacre, you'd be better off renting Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine.
April 16, 2007  |  
 
 
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There will be plenty of "rapid responses" to the gun rampage on the Virginia Tech campus, which has claimed the lives of as many as 31 students -- making it the deadliest school shotting incident in the history of the United States.

Do not doubt that the National Rifle Association is preparing its "this-had-nothing-to-do-with-guns" press release. The group has no compunctions about living up to its reputation for being beyond shame -- or education -- when it comes to peddling its spin on days when it would be better to simply remain silent. But the NRA will not be alone in responding in a self-serving manner. Many groups on all sides of issues related to guns and violence in America will be busy making their points, just as many in the media will look for one dimensional "explanations" for what the university's president, Charles Steger, has correctly described as "a tragedy... of monumental proportions."

"The university is shocked and indeed horrified," explained Steger, after it became clear that what had happened on his campus Monday was worse the carnage at Columbine High School in 1999 or at the University of Texas in 1966.

The trouble with shock and horror is that it does not often translate into contemplation, let alone serious reflection on the state of a nation in which such an incident can occur -- and, more troublingly, in which no one can suggest that the killings were unimaginable.

The first question, appropriately, is: Why did this happen?

The second question, equally appropriately, is: What should we do about it?

There is is a simple answer to Question No. 1: America is a violent country.

Unfortunately, simple answers lead to simplistic responses. If America can do nothing about its violent streak, the NRA will argue, it is silly to place limits on gun ownership. Better to arm everyone, the argument goes. Or better to allow the "concealed carry" of weapons. Or, well, you get the point -- anything to avoid taking a piece out of the profits of the corporations that manufacture and sell deadly weapons.

By the same token, the notion that banning those weapons will end the violence has become a a tougher sell. Shocking and horrible rampages occur in countries with stricter gun laws than the U.S. No, they do not happen as frequently. But they do happen.

Conversely, in some countries where gun ownership is relatively high, incidents like at Virginia Tech are far less common.

We ought to wrestle with these contradictions and complexities.

But where to begin?

Here is a modest proposal: Instead of adopting a particular line, rent Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine."

Of course, there are those who will not be able to see beyond their rage at Moore to recognize the value of this particular film.

Moore's 2002 film remains the best popular exploration of violence and the gun culture in America. And, despite what the film maker's critics would have you believe, it is a remarkably nuanced assessment of the zeitgeist.

Moore's purpose was to offer an explanation for why the Columbine massacre occurred and to examine the broader question of why the U.S. has higher rates of violent crimes than other developed nations.

Moore certainly does not let apologists for the gun industry off the hook. But he does not stop there. "Bowling for Columbine" explores the role that America's mad foreign policies and obscene expenditures on weapons of mass destruction might play in fostering a culture of violence. Most significantly, Moore takes a serious look at the way in which American media, with its obsessive crime coverage, creates a climate of fear in this country -- a climate that actually ends up encouraging violence.

After the movie came out, Mary Corliss wrote in Film Comment: "Moore makes the mind swim with the atrocities and poignancies on display. 'Bowling for Columbine' should be mandatory viewing."

That was true in 2002. It is ever more true today.
John Nichols is The Nation's Washington correspondent.
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Very Silly...
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Posted by: guybjones on Apr 17, 2007 7:43 AM   
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The "culture of violence" theory is naive. I'm not saying raising someone in an abusive household fosters mentally and emotionally healthy growth (look at the life of Richard Ramirez, "the nightstalker," as an example). I'm merely postulating that 1) there are mentally ill people present in society; 2) some of these people will be prone to acts of violence; and 3) no law or ordinance will ever be able to prevent such acts.

The human mind is complex, unpredictable, and yes, largely intangible, even to this day. We are animals, still, despite our lofty aspirations. This is the reality, end of story.

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» RE: Very Silly... Posted by: ccnygal13
» I beg to differ... Posted by: guybjones
» What's your explanation Posted by: geoff_canuck
» RE: What's your explanation Posted by: Blue Heron

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Heterogeneity
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 17, 2007 7:53 AM   
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I was not surprised to see that the issue of heterogeneity did not come up. The NRA (which I am a member) loves to point out that these type of shooting rarely happen in places like Idaho or the Dakotas which is nearly all white. They just point out the fact that nearly all adults own firearms. You do see more violence in DC NY or NO with their diverse and multicultural populations.

The left is always exalting country's like Norway and Finland for their social programs like universal health care. How diverse are the people in those countries? How does 6'5'' Blue eyed blond haired Sven Jorganson respond when an olive skinned 5'6'' Turkish man named Mohamed wants a piece of his pie (or danish what ever the case may be).

There is nothing you can do about it really as far as America goes. It just pisses me off that no one wants to acknowledge the fact that people get along better with people that look like them than others. This is not exclusive to people that fit the description of my user name either.

Off topic but:
If I am white, They are black/brown/yellow/red
If they are African/Latin/Asian/native American, I am a European American.

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» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: Ahimsa
» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: jaby
» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: Suburban Dad
» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: texshelters
» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: mcubed
» Population density Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: jisangNY1
» RE: Heterogeneity Posted by: latin11368
» This kind of comment... Posted by: latin11368

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Socialization, Culture, and Gender
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Posted by: frosty86 on Apr 17, 2007 8:08 AM   
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I was glad that Michael Moore's film addressed the fact that our culture and socialization play a BIG role in influencing our behavior and can enable violence. When there are significant differences among countries in the level of gun-violence and the level of sexual violence, you CANNOT say this is a problem of sick individuals. There is something else going on. It is not human nature or genetic to be violent b/c there are soo many people in the world who aren't violent? Are they somehow able to counterract their genes and their nature? It's all about how we're socialized and what messages we get on a daily basis from the world around us.

Unfortunately, Michael Moore's film never once focused on the issue of gender and masculinity. These school shootings are not "kids killing kids." The perpetrators are overwhelmingly boys and men. Over 95% of all violent crimes are committed by men, so this is a gendered phenomenon. We need to reflect on the messages we are giving young men and women about what it means to be a "real man" or simply to be a man. Given the violence and hyper-masculinity depicted in movies and music videos along with the militarization of our culture, young boys learn that violence and aggression is an appropriate way to handle disagreement and express themselves. And when it comes to sexual violence, women are overwhelmingly the victims of ovewhelmingly male perpetrators.

Can we please stop depoliticizing these events by chalking them up to individual weirdos who snap one day and actually focus on how our larger culture plays a role??

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» 180 degrees Posted by: Iconoclast421

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A field day for the gun nut lobby
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 17, 2007 8:14 AM   
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Led by Rivero over at whatreallyhappened.com... AS IF arming everyone in society like the Wild West would stop something like this. These retarded morons NEVER ask themselves what would have happened in that classroom if everyone had been armed, from the teacher to every student... NOTHING WOULD HAVE CHANGED, in the free-for-all panic that followed, they would have all SHOT EACH OTHER. If anything, the carnage would have happened QUICKER. "One Tin Soldier" rides away. NOT. Only in the freakin' movies.

Already the morons are yelling "More guns!!! More guns!!! GUNS would have prevented this!"

Yeah, until the first armed teacher goes postal on her class and takes out every single student.

Gun nuts never think, not for a single second. What do you expect of idiots that think owning an arsenal is going to stand up to a government tank and ATF SWAT team at the front door? Did their arsenal save Waco, Gun Nuts? Did their arsenal save Ruby Ridge? Or more your speed, Jonestown?

On the contrary, when the government brings a tank to your next door neighbor to take out THEIR moronic arsenal, you're just liable to lose a couple of kids and family members in the shootout if you can't get the hell out and away from the firefight in time.

Gun nuts are probably the stupidest most suicidal people on earth, and the real pity is they really see themselves as "survivalists." Pawns for a multi-billion dollar industry that is backed by the elite for the sole purpose of having an idiot populace KILL EACH OTHER so they won't have to.

Good luck when that tank shows up at your front door, and trust me; it WILL.

Friggin' morons. Is de-arming society the answer then?

Duh. De-arming these nuts means that when the tank comes, everyone at least survives.

But no, that's too logical for gun NUTS. They all need to go out in the wilderness WITH THEIR GUNS and live in caves... caves can stand up to tanks. Until an ATF shoulder-fired bunker buster improves the overall intelligence of the human race.

And Charlton Heston? Don't get me STARTED on that tired-out old whore...

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» obi-wan Posted by: funknjunk
» RE: obi-wan Posted by: xbj
» RE: A field day for the nutty gun grabbers Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: A field day for the nutty gun grabbers Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENNNNNNKIIIINSSSS! Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» This Exchange Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: xbj
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: xbj
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: xbj
» Problem with Bans Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Problem with Bans Posted by: xbj
» Hitler was for gun control Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: i meant 2000 (nm) Posted by: blaine s

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dick
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Posted by: rtmyth on Apr 17, 2007 8:27 AM   
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Not to worry. The NRA has already issued the solution; students should be armed on campuses.

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» One single weapon Posted by: YogiBear

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Using the same tactics?
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Posted by: dbatterman on Apr 17, 2007 8:55 AM   
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Most of the above comments have had very insightful things to say. But we should avoid indulging in the same broad-stroked generalizations that the NRA engages in. (see xbj's comments above.) I hope the irony of advocating violence against "Gun Nuts" isn't lost on them.
(And if the "nuts" were de-armed when the tank arrived, they still wouldn't survive. Tell that to the unarmed people who have been killed in Iraq.)
There are a million ways to look at this tradgedy, and the article did a good job of not pointing the finger at one scapegoat but recommending a movie which takes a broader view. It's easy to point and scream "NRA BAD! GUN CONTROL GOOD!" but it doesn't change anything in the real world.

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» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: yellow
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932

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Follow up by reading Going Postal by Mark Ames
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Posted by: J- on Apr 17, 2007 9:01 AM   
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Before this becomes a a guns/no guns yelling match, read Going Postal by Mark Ames, after you watch Bowling for Columbine, of course.

And I agree, even though I'm going to hear about it, that this didn't really have anything to with guns. Remember, it could have just as easily been a rented truck full of fertilizer and diesel fuel.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that comparisons to Columbine should be on an environmental and sociological level, and not from a physical security standpoint. Securing a single building is much easier to do, and to respond to incidents in, than a 2600 acre campus.

Please, above all, don't resort to name calling or yelling. That's not going to help. Real discourse is what is needed, and back to my earlier statement, blaming inanimate objects, while easy, will never solve anything. Things we should be talking about are a failure or lack of a public mental health infrastructure, the dominance of athletics within the academic environments or possibly the effect of media on society in general.

Read Mark Ames book, Going Postal, and then see if it's still a black and white issue.

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Stop Calling ME Nuts !
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Posted by: alaskagrrl on Apr 17, 2007 9:13 AM   
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Obviously you have a are uncomfortable around weapons. Sorry, but I am not. I live in Alaska where bears can jump out from behind a bush and kill me. So I carry a gun. I even had to use it once for a moose attack (they kill more people here than bears).

If I hadn’t had that weapon, I would be dead. Don’t assume anything about my judgment, I am a professional wilderness guide with unassailable credentials.

Sometimes, what you need is a handy weapon. Sorta like those poor students in VA.

If I were there, I could have laid down cover fire while at least some of the students escaped. Even with his bullet proof vest I would have likely ended the catastrophe with a head shot. That’s because I know how to handle my weapon.

In Alaska we have no concealed permit laws. We simply have a right to arm ourselves. NOT from the government, such assumption is foolish. We arm ourselves against Criminals. Even little old ladies carry arms in their purses, and you know what ?

Criminals pause....

I have to ask the Gun Control People this question: When confronted what are you supposed to do to protect yourself ? Dial 911 ? Give me a break....

That’s takes a lot of faith. I have more faith in my trained hand and weapon. Are you folks so generous that you would sacrifice your own lives for the presumed ‘greater good’ that comes from an unarmed society ?

That last question is best answered when you are facing death. Or better yet, when your child is facing death. Then imagine yourself with a gun.

Would you use it -- or would you roll over and die for your beliefs ?

Be honest.

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» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: texshelters
» You ignorant Slut... Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: You ignorant Slut... Posted by: argos
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: JMorse
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: suprmark
» Oh right, my bad.... Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: Oh right, my bad.... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: Rathan47

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Between a Rock and a Hard Place...
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Posted by: CatDad on Apr 17, 2007 9:21 AM   
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The Right wants to solve the school shooting problem with the same strategy that are using in Iraq....The “solution” to the carnage in Iraq and stopping American troops deaths is to send in “more” troops....The “solution” to the school shooting problem is “more” guns....

The media/entertainment industry will not pull back from violent shows/movies/games....they're too profitable. This nation is saturated with guns and with Tim McVeigh we already know what will happen if people perceive that their guns are going to be taken away. The Dems have so compromised themselves on economic issues that they jump all over themselves (like Kerry) to show that they love guns too.

The best we can do is work on intervention and school safety/lockdown strategies. The Right Wing has basically won on the issue of gun ownership. Congratulations guys...hope you’re happy.

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» RE: This problem... Posted by: blaine s

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Gun don't kill...blah blah blah
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Posted by: texshelters on Apr 17, 2007 9:34 AM   
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Dear Public:

The logic of the radical gun lobby is without parellel. So let's look at it.

1. Guns don't kill people, people do...but how many people can you really kill more than one person at a time with a kitchen knife. Guns make it really easy to kill.

2. Cars kill people, why not ban cars. It's easier in many states to get a gun than a car, and guns were designed for one thing, to kill. Cars were not designed to kill. Should we ban penicillin because some people are alergic to it?

3. Doctors cause more accidental deaths than guns, so ban doctors. Maybe doctors do cause more "accidental deaths", but few doctors cause intential death. All gun deaths are intentional.

4. If you criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns. So, we should allow anyone to have crack because if we ban crack, only crackheads will use crack. Did anyone say we should fully ban guns? Perhaps we should have background and personality checks before letting everyone and anyone have a gun. Perhaps an automatic weapon isn't needed to stop an intruder or hunt deer. Why not ban the manufacture and sale of these weapons?

5. More guns, less crime. Having more guns has not been proven to reduce crime. There are many more factors that have been shown to reduce crime, and it's not gun ownership. It's inaccurate statistic like this that prevent us from dealing with gun violence in our society.

6. Why do places with stricter gun laws have more gun violence? BECAUSE THE LAWS WERE PASSED DUE TO THE HIGH RATE OF GUN VIOLENCE! Gun laws don't cause gun violence, they are a reaction to the violence.

The paranoia and cowardous of the "guns at any cost" crowd is astounding. The same set of Bush/Limbaugh lies are used to scare people into the belief that 1) there are people out there who want to take away all of your guns, and 2) you will actually be safer with a gun.

I don't care if individuals have guns. However, can't we enact common sense safe guards to prevent massacres like the one at Va. Tech?

Culture, psychology, political climate, and economics all have to do with gun violence. Keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally unstable, and the anti-social personalities, and ban multi-shot weapons only created to kill en masse, and that would be a good start. Sure, guns don't kill people, but it makes it easier for people like Cho Seung-Hui to kill dozens of people before being stopped.

Should massacres like this be the price we pay to defend the second amendment at all costs? Or should we accept things the way they are, throw up our hands and say, "shoot away".

Joe Tex

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» A couple of points... Posted by: dbatterman
» RE: A couple of points... Posted by: psychochurch
» Gun shows Posted by: texshelters
» RE: Gun shows Posted by: dbatterman
» The issue is not about guns..... Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: The issue is not about guns..... Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Gun don't kill...blah blah blah Posted by: Iconoclast421

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You wrote this exploitative essay before the bodies were even cold.
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Posted by: alterpa123 on Apr 17, 2007 9:42 AM   
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"Do not doubt that the National Rifle Association is preparing its "this-had-nothing-to-do-with-guns" press release. The group has no compunctions about living up to its reputation for being beyond shame -- or education -- when it comes to peddling its spin on days when it would be better to simply remain silent. But the NRA will not be alone in responding in a self-serving manner."

Pot meet kettle.

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» STATEMENT BY THE NRA Posted by: ateo
» RE: STATEMENT BY THE NRA Posted by: texshelters

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Time to get rid of most semiautomatics -- and especially ammo
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Posted by: Moonray on Apr 17, 2007 9:49 AM   
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I'm an Army vet and no pacifist, but the writing is on the wall: We need to get rid of the vast majority of semiautomatic weapons and -- most importantly -- the ammunition.

Most gun owners should be allowed to own only revolvers and single-shot rifles and shotguns, and a few rounds of ammo for self-protection, with tough penalties for owning more. Target shooting would have to take place in gun clubs.

Metal detectors should be installed in virtually all public places.

Those tough guys who claim they would never give up their guns would change their tune fast if the first few violators received stiff jail terms. Enough is enough.

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» I AGREE Posted by: HistArch

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If gun control works....
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Posted by: PJH67 on Apr 17, 2007 10:00 AM   
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If gun control works, then how come Washington, D.C. remained one of the most dangerous cities in the U.S. even after they banned gun ownership?

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» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou

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Good Thing Native Americans Didn't Have Schools
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Posted by: hole11 on Apr 17, 2007 10:04 AM   
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Or guns before they were marched all the way to Oklahoma. How many died during that one?

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» Of what are you afraid? Posted by: geoff_canuck

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One more bloody massacre...
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 17, 2007 10:14 AM   
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Just a few months ago, 65 people, mostly students, were killed in a senseless act of violence a lot like this one... but the difference is that everone knows the name of Virginia Tech, but what was the name of the university in Baghdad? The story is at 65 killed as Baghdad university bombed, by Ammar Karim AFP January 16, 2007

On Tuesday around 100 people were killed, mostly in Baghdad, but the day's deadliest attack came from the twin blasts at the entrance of the renowned Mustansiriyah University in east Baghdad, security officials said.

The explosions ripped through dozens of students, teachers, and employees of the university as they were heading home at the end of the day, killing 65 and wounding 138.

The massive bombings left a number of nearby cars completely burned and many bodies charred in their parked vehicles, a witness said.

The dead and wounded were rushed to city hospitals in bed sheets, blankets, stretchers, and a number of pickup trucks.

Burned corpses could be seen lying on the street outside the university, their mobile telephones ringing unanswered, the photographer said.
(It was Mustansiriyah University)

NPR was running stories about the need for counseling for all the students at Virginia Tech after the tragic event, and that seems like the right thing to do - but NPR barely covered the Baghdad bombing.

What you see in the US was an immediate push by the NRA public relations team, all over the rightwing radio shows and blogs - yup, now's the time to push the 'right of citizens to bear arms' (oops - he wasn't a citizen, just someone who had no problem getting his hands on a weapon...) - just another public relations moment for the NRA.

300 people were killed in Iraq last weekend. Over the last ten days in Iraq, some 34 US soldiers have been killed, and who knows? 500 civilians? The media will try and play this up as some unique tragedy, but the public knows it's just more meaningless, inexplicable slaughter in an out-of-control world.

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» Thank you for these facts. Posted by: tlCampbell

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Everybody will use this to push their agendas
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Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 17, 2007 10:26 AM   
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Just like everybody used the violence of September 11th to push through their agendas.

The anti-immigration people will have a field day with it.

We all need to be vigilant as different groups try to manipulate the outpouring of grief and anger.

This is so sad. I wish humanity were going in a better direction. Sometimes it feels like taking a chisel to a mountain.

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The culture of militarism
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Posted by: fmindlin on Apr 17, 2007 10:42 AM   
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In all the media coverage of Virginia Tech, , only the Independent of London has mentioned the militaristic background of the University--

"Virginia Tech ... is one of only two civilian universities in the US with a corps of cadets who undergo military training on campus. Until 1966 it was a requirement for all male students to have received military training."

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Words from a "Bowling for Columbine" fan
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Apr 17, 2007 10:41 AM   
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I thought it was a great documentary, but I did not perceive it as having an "anti-gun" message. I am pro-gun and I think the first short term step is to allow Virginia's concealed carry permit to extend to cover the campus grounds. It might not have saved any lives, but I think there could have at least been that possibility.

But tougher gun laws... what will that do? It's another one of those "but the border is wide open" issues. You aren't going to stop someone from premeditatively taking their own life and taking as many people with them as they can, if that is what they are hellbent on doing. If he could not have bought a gun he probably would have obtained one through some other means. And what if there were no guns? Do you know how many people one could mow down with an SUV? I'm not sure of the statistics, but I would not be surprised if SUVs kill more people than guns! Perhaps it is time to ban driving? And we should also have our hands chopped off because as we learned on 9/11, even a box cutter can do enormous damage. And we should all be lobotomized, because who knows what type of sadistic "weapons of moderate destruction" an errant mind might conjure? (Can you say ANFO?)

People need to understand that anyone can inflict harm on anyone at nearly any given moment if they so choose, and what keeps us from doing so is this thing called civility. Fear of god is pretty much a lost cause, and fear of punishment is irrelevant when someone has already chosen to pay with their own life. We really have only two choices... accept more of the prisoner's mindset, sacrificing liberty for security. Or work on this civility problem. Lack of empathy, consumerist isolationism, gross inequality, injustice, entrenched power... address those problems, or live like a slave in the world, and as a prisoner in your own mind. But hey, I guess as long as we have Jack Bauer that is an acceptable compromise.

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Books? Culture? Art?
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Apr 17, 2007 11:10 AM   
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If Americans would put down their guns for 1 second and indulge in more humanist pursuits, these massacres would not be nearly as common. Even cavemen armed with guns could not have been as trigger-happy as yanks are today.

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» RE: Books? Culture? Art? Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Books? Culture? Art? Posted by: dll932

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Nothing but Inevitable
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 17, 2007 11:35 AM   
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Once again we hear the NRA proposed solution as it looms:

more guns, give everyone a gun, legally require gun ownership, issue a 9mm to every adolescent, child and adult.

When does it stop? When you go to Canada, a big sign at the border with a crossmark across a firearm greets American visitors. Keep your firearms out America. Our homicide rate and firearm tragedy death rate isn't 1/10th of yours. But, get this America, if you make the means of killing people legal and available, of course it will be used. It's just plain common sense that this is an invitation to disaster. Of course, we will hear the famliar refrain: "guns don't kill, people do." Well, nuclear weapons don't kill either, people do. Therefore, should we issue nukes to all private citizens? Same logic at work.

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» RE: Nothing but Inevitable Posted by: Blue Heron
» RPGs for Christ Posted by: amacd
» RE: Nothing but Inevitable Posted by: dll932

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Here It Comes Again
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Posted by: sgtstan on Apr 17, 2007 12:02 PM   
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It has begun again: the incessant rhetoric and speculation from uninformed newscasters and pundits regarding the reasons why such tragic events occur. Everyone’s an amateur psychologist, especially the talking heads whose job it is to fill airtime on television.

News reporters have become part of the news, rather than just reporters of facts. And to fill the time allowed them, reporters have already thrown out comments such as: “If only little Timmy didn’t have a gun, he wouldn’t have killed Susie” and “Could stricter gun regulations have prevented this tragedy?” It never fails to amuse that reporters rarely put the onus of responsibility on the individual who committed the crime.

And its not that all reporters are left-wing sociologists blaming society for every spilt cup of milk. They say these things because they don’t know what else to say. With their blank faces in front of a camera, they try to hold the audience’s attention by promising the latest details, while in reality they await the facts as fed them by the real investigators – the police.

But they never fail to revive the gun control issue.

I would suggest that, before any more of you embarrass yourselves blaming the NRA and “gun nuts,” educate yourselves. Simply put, not every gun owner joins nor supports the NRA, nor is every gun owner a “gun nut.” If you own a car or a pair of sneakers, does that make you a “car nut” or a “shoe nut?”

The following links take you to two articles regarding the recent rise in violent crime in Great Britain, despite heavier and stricter gun control since the 1950’s.

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/7/10/203335
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/3/21/205139

Also, please check out this book from John R. Lott, Jr., concerning the media coverage of firearms usage in this country: “The Bias against Guns.”
http://www.johnlott.org

And lastly, check out Dave Grossman’s “On Combat” for some fantastic insight into just about everything that has to do with firearms use, how our children are being trained to kill, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Dave-Grossman/dp/0964920514

One more thing I find utterly reprehensible is the continued grading of such killings. “This is the worst killing of its kind in US history.” Doesn’t that just beg one-ups-manship? My wife said she hated to hear the extensive media comparisons of such killings for two reasons. First, instead of being treated as an aberration, the media will spread the fear of such actions nationwide (as usual.) Secondly, because it will successfully result in another similar scenario elsewhere. And not simply because a gun is available…

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» The right tool for the job Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: Here It Comes Again Posted by: yellow

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under tighter gun control...
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Posted by: blaine s on Apr 17, 2007 12:40 PM   
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i am sure that even the criminals will relinquish thier guns.
Because, they are soooo law abiding....
This is more of a supply side issue. The manufacture needs to be limited, not the ability to responsibly own them.
Look at the statistics out of Australia sinced the forced gun ban; crime is up, notably armed robbery (especially against the elderly) and murder.
And if leaving it up to law enforcement to handle, why was the death toll so high? They were already on the scene before the majority of shots were fired.

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Bodyguard
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Posted by: Lacr0ix on Apr 17, 2007 1:24 PM   
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Moore is a hack. His "documentary" is an opinion-piece, not a documentary.

Liberal cowards are always for "gun-control" (for everyone EXCEPT their paid bodyguards).

Self-protection is both a right and a responsibility. The case-law is clear that Police have no duty to protect people. They are charged with protection of "society". When it comes to violence, you're on your own, in the right-now.

I thought liberals were all about protecting the oppressed - the the poor, the weak, the sick, the elderly, THE WOMEN...

This is why liberals can't get elected in this country, because, like the so-called conservatives they don't respect ALL human rights. They want to pick and choose. Liberals want all human rights except the right of an old person or a single mother to protection from violent attack. Lately, conservatives seem to want just that one right, and let's forget the others.

Notice which one right the people cling to - the right of self-protection and survival...

Gun control discriminates most against minorities, the poor, the sick, the elderly, and WOMEN - the people who are in high-crime areas, and/or who can't adequately defend themselves against a large strong aggressive young male weilding a (completely legal) screwdriver or tire-iron.

What is it liberals - Are you for affording the woman protecion from rape - or is it that you think her right to aborting the resulting fetus will make everything just fine?

People commit crimes because - they're people, and some people are aggressive. It's in the NATURE of people. Aren't liberals supposed to be all secular and scientific? Don't they believe in DARWIN? The answer is in your own mouth - You have BOTH kinds of teeth.

When some people let out the monster, the only thing that will stop that monster - is a bullet. It's sad, it's ugly, it's even disgusting. But, it's a fact of life.

There have been "no gun" rules on every campus on which shootings have taken place. This is not called "safety". It's called delusion, because "no gun" zones are really "criminal empowerment zones" - places in which the aggressive predatory people know they are safe to attack the otherwise defenseless - the sick, the elderly and WOMEN.

There was only one thing that could have stopped that guy in VA from killing so many victims. It wasn't media control of violent "entertainment". It wasn't "more gun laws". It was just ONE - law-abiding, competent, upstanding citizen exercising their inalienable right to posess the means of self-protection - and then using that means in the terrible moment it was undeniably necessary.

This was a CRIME (not a "tragedy"). The tragedy of yesterday was that all those people were victimized by their school and their government when those institutions abrogated the students' right to life by denying them the lawful means of legal and necessary self-protection. All the criminial did was shoot them - The school and the state stripped them of protection and held them down while he did it.

Get over the irrational fear if inanimate objects. Knives, guns, chainsaws, decks of cards.

ALL civil rights are FOR ALL people. Not select civil rights for select people (and their bodyguards, cronies, etc).

The "liberals" are no better than the "conservatives" in this regard, and they will continue to LOSE elections until they embrace all civil rights for all people - including and especially the right of survival in the face of a violent attacker.

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» RE: Bodyguard Posted by: craftne
» RE: I'm afraid Posted by: Lacr0ix
» why liberals cant get elected Posted by: Iconoclast421

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Strong people don't need weapons to be strong
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Posted by: anniedine on Apr 17, 2007 1:36 PM   
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Elderly blind chimpanzees can be taught how to point a gun and shoot – it takes neither strength or brains to kill with a gun. Killing is the easy, exciting part; that's why so many people like to indulge in the fantasy of it.

It takes advanced intelligence, advanced emotional maturity, and advanced mental strength to do the right thing. The right thing does not involve weapons or killing of any kind.

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Can't even let the bodies cool, can you?
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Posted by: Boomerang on Apr 17, 2007 1:53 PM   
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You can't even let people be buried before you start trying to capitalize on the events for your own political gain. You and John McCain must be cut from opposite sides of the same cloth.

Shame on both of you.

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Talking Sense, not ego and entitlement
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Posted by: craftne on Apr 17, 2007 2:27 PM   
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We MUST not keeping crying "second amendment" while firearm attacks and suicides continue. We have failed our "right" to bear arms. In the past 16 months, six schools shootings, perhaps more. Add to that suicide and accidental gun deaths.

If you want to hunt or go to the range, rent guns.

Who do you trust to own a gun? How about neighbors? How about coworkers? Do you trust the sanity of those around you? School bus drivers? Bank tellers? What if you knew every retail shop employee had a gun in his pocket?

Is this the way you want your world to be? 300 MILLION people with guns. How about bloggers with psychotic tendencies? Let's give guns to all schoolchildren to take to school. How about psychotics who aren't under treatment because they have the "right" not to have to be? Taxi cab drivers. Postmen. How about we bring them on trains and planes? To restaurants? We can shoot anyone who gives us bad service!

My family/friends are in a debate, and some don't trust the government or the police if we choose to enact very strict gun control. Further, they say the solution is looking into why gunmen go whacko.

Why he was so whacked out?
Look at the suicide rates.
Look at all the traumatised fearful people in the US.
Look at the anger levels.
Look at the sense of entitlement.
Look at unemployment.
Look at the lack of help for the middle class.
Look at companies like Circuit City, firing to hire more cheaply.
Look at the fundamentalism (Read "Under the Banner of Heaven: The Story of a Violent Faith")
Low at illiteracy.
Look at the levels of mental problems.
Addiction.
IQ levels.

How uncommon a response do you think it is if a gun is within reach or easily obtained? How sane do you believe those around YOU are?

I lived in Australia for 5 of the past 7 years. The difference in living there with strict gun control laws is simply amazing. In 1996, this happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre

Australia had the same kind of "right". After the massacre, very strict gun control was enacted, and now it's very safe. In Sydney, I went to ATMs at night, I rode public transport at night, I didn't have to clutch my purse close or worry about where I walked. I LIVED the difference.

I don't trust John Howard either, but I was very safe. I don't feel safe here. I'm not as desensitised as all of you.

We are NOT taught to take responsibility - even our leaders, by example, blame everyone else – look at the blame game surrounding this tragedy already.

While our government could become a threat, and the police could become a threat, statistics show this is not the case in Western countries where they've chosen to adopt strict gun control.

I distrust regular people more. With the greed, selfishness, narrow-mindedness, fundamentalism, a huge sense of entitlement in America, violence becomes commonplace. Your coworker could be the one gone over the edge next. You could lose your wife, your kids, your parents, your brother, anyone. You could die. YOU.

Second shootings at VT since this school year began.

How many murders and suicides will it take before we realise that guns are the problem? Look at the chart and statistics here:

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Look at "Intentional Self Harm". The numbers jump 300% when a gun is introduced. Look at "Operations of war and sequelae" and "Legal intervention with firearm". Suicide is the 5th biggest killer, firearm assault is 7th. The odds you will die in war - is minuscule.

You have the right to bear a kitchen knife. Past that, I don't trust regular citizens. Nope. Not at all.

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» spot on! love your points Posted by: nor cal surfer

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Just a game?
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Posted by: Just a Dad on Apr 17, 2007 2:29 PM   
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As a Dad of four I wonder why every body is so shocked that America is so violent. We train kids to point guns at people and shoot. This training is packaged in many forms and called a game. I saw a video on youtube called Just a Game? It is less than a minute long and I think it says it all. I hope those reading this will take a moment to watch it on youtube.

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» RE: Just a game? Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Just a Dad
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Just a Dad
» thank you. good words. Posted by: nor cal surfer
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Topaz
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Just a Dad
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Topaz

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A Country Where Buying Sudafed Is Harder than Buying a Gun
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 17, 2007 2:58 PM   
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In Canada, the gun homicide rate is 8 times lower than in the USA.

This is even after you figure in all the guns smuggled into the country from the USA (a big problem Canada has confronted Bush about).

As for USA pro gun people and their cherry picked stats, I have news for them, not a single country in the world with good gun control is getting rid of it. In fact, they all want more of it. It's time to establish an international system they all say. Do away with the gun culture, the same way other problems, like global warming, arms proliferation, human rights violations, etc., all need to be tackled. But, first you have to deal with the USA. A country where 40% of the adults own firearms. A country where so many are so dumb as to think that just having more guns and more guns is going to make them safer. If you have a country where it is harder to buy Sudafed than a gun, just what do you think is going to happen? It's not so hard to figure this out, unless you are blinded by idealogy.

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» you want a cherry-picked stat? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Buying Sudafed Posted by: YogiBear

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Where to find Just a Game video
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Posted by: Just a Dad on Apr 17, 2007 3:38 PM   
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Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtL6tn7joVA

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You all totally misunderstand the 2nd Amendment
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Posted by: Wassermann on Apr 17, 2007 4:42 PM   
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The 2nd Amendment was put in place so that citizens could protect themselves from a tyrannical government (and bring it down by force if necessary by using said guns), NOT so that everyone could carry handguns in public places.

If 2nd Amendment rights are further reduced, there will be NOTHING preventing the current U.S. government from spiraling further in to tyranny because the citizens will be left totally defenseless/offenseless.

Or do you all propose bringing down a tyrannical government (should it ever come to that) by using pitchforks, homemade torches, and posters?

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» we can't get half that to vote! Posted by: nor cal surfer

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we need cars to drive, we need knives to cut food
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Posted by: nor cal surfer on Apr 17, 2007 4:54 PM   
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we don't need guns.

arming this fucktard population w/an average IQ of a 90-100 is like giving matches to a child. especially in light of the preference for Jack Bauer torture over Janet Jackson titties. we are programatically predisposed to accept hyper-violence as a means to an end, and totally freak out over mother nature and her God given products (yeah, throw weed in there too). hmmm. i sense a basic of fear of women. holdovers from the Gaian age >5,000 years ago, guys?

c-mon, people. this starts with guns and it ends with guns. make every gun illegal. the constitution is ready for that ammendment. NRA: go fuck yourself.

after all, NRA freaks: you really wanna point your Glock at an incoming A10 Warthog? if every gun was illegal for civilians to own, you'd be more worried about your lotto chances than some offKilter idiot kicking in your door w/an automatic weapon. right now, as it stands, you do, and your insanity/fantasy is part of that status-fucked-up-quo.

look, you know it's easy folks:

1) leave weaponry to professional soldiers. U.S. people: don't give me the Swiss bullshit either. they have a way more stitched together society that can obviously handle loaded machine guns in every house. you're still in Emotional Maturity Time Out Corner.
2) rebuild the education system. pay teachers more than lawyers (ie: switch the expeditures for defense w/education)
3) let the folks on TV curse, have sex. Fuck, we do it every day anyway. no more 10 bullets to the torso and the blond hero stumbles to his fallen Uzi to save the day at :56 in.
4) make drugs illegal. wow. you can finally pull that railroad tie out of your temple and you won't implode! imagine the revenues, time freed for REAL things, like catching rapists and thieves.
5) hmmm. that should do it. just see the above 4.

now. please prove me wrong. bring it.

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» lesson learned Posted by: nor cal surfer

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Guns or not, America is a sick and decaying society
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 17, 2007 8:40 PM   
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It is an obvious fact that if guns were less accessible then killing sprees would involve guns less often. The statement is self evident. It goes deeper than that.

Making guns more difficult to obtain wouldn't solve the problems in our society that create the people who commit these acts. If guns were more difficult to obtain then perhaps a person seeking to inflict pain and suffering upon society (which is really what their goal is, their indiscriminate killing can be explained no other way) would learn how to make a bomb and use that tactic. Bombs may kill more people, or less. It is, in all honesty, irrelevant.

Whether a man with a gun kills 32 people or a bomb kills 60 or a knife/sword kills 5 we have to ask the question, why is America producing people who feel they have no recourse but a suicidal rampage? It is a sign of sickness and decay not that America marginalizes people as America always has, but that the marginalized feel they have no means to exist in anything resembling happiness in our country.

In times past America marginalized groups of people to such a degree that they had every reason to strike back at those oppressing them. Think of native Americans, slaves, the mass poverty we have experienced at various times. Yet something kept them from acting out. What was that force? It was community, a sense of belonging in your own community even if the greater society shunned you. Community gave them a taste of happiness and hope in a country that was rigged against them. America has lost its sense of community to such a degree that an individual who is marginalized for whatever reason feels, rightly, completely alone with nobody to offer help or even advice.

Our consumerist society thrives because it produces people who want things they cannot obtain. This produces psychological conflict in individuals when their wants (that may be perceived as needs) are not met. Hence you have the rants against "rich kids." Every American is chasing the same dream and not every one of us is going to reach it.

Americans today are much better off than Americans in the past but even the children of middle class people will describe their childhood in terms that indicate that they were left wanting. In reality most of them were left wanting, that's the nature of our culture. I've met people who grew up in an upper middle class suburb of D.C. that believe they were poor growing up. In fact, I've rarely run into anyone who doesn't think that they were deprived as children even if they grew up in a stable middle class family in one of the wealthiest areas of the country. Everyone's reaching for the brass ring and it's moving continuously away from our grasp.

People fail because they set unrealistic goals that, if somehow accomplished, would allow them to buy all of the things they want. When these failures occur they seek someone to blame and in America blaming oneself is the last thing we do so they naturally conclude that they have been held back by society at large and seek revenge by inflicting as much pain as possible on those perceived to have held them back. So a lack of community to act as a safety net combined with unattainable wants generated by our consumer society produces miserable people out for revenge.

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» yes! nailed great points, ateo Posted by: nor cal surfer

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Why people care about Virginia tech
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 17, 2007 8:49 PM   
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Another point I'd like to make is that the reason the Virginia tech shooting is being blown way out of proportion is because this attack occurred inside the middle class bubble of safety that they assume protects them and their children. I'm sure the remark, "so a bunch of white kids got shot" was uttered around the country more than once when this all went down. Shootings happen in some parts of the country every other day, "kids" in Iraq get blown up every day.

Middle class parents send their kids to college assuming they will be safe for a few years and maybe learn how to be an adult. Poor parents send their kids to Iraq and just hope they come back alive and remotely sane. There is a personal connection to the college environment for many people. That brings this attack home for them making it seem very personal.

All I can say is that as society breaks down, as the vast emptiness that is life without a community to support you grows to encompass more Americans, as the safety nets disappear one by one, expect more attacks of this nature and worse. I tell you, it's enough to make an atheist contemplate seeking religion if only for the sense of belonging and community.

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permanent war & weapons for all
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Posted by: mute on Apr 17, 2007 9:35 PM   
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here's a comment from a non-citizen:

i come from a country that's been through war in the 1990s. the laws about possessing guns are more strict than in the US. before the war, there was virtually *no* people shooting people, for the simple reason people didn't own guns. after the war, the situation changed: there were weapons left in people's homes and this, together with the post-war climate in which tolerance for violence is diminished, lead to more gun violence (Still far far far less than in the US). now, considering that the US have been at war more or less for the whole of the twentieth century (including various secret operations, cold war paranoia, etc), that the country has an *unbelievably* militarized culture and that guns are available to whoever wants to buy them, i don't see how anyone is surprised things like this school shooting happen. it really sounds ridiculous to even hear people debate over "whether free gun possession lead to more gun violence" -- is that a real question!? of course they do. the hypernationalistic culture of war certainly helps, too. believe me, for most people in the world having the "right to bear arms" in the constitution sounds really scary (and explains why this is such a violent country).

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Simple as this:
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 17, 2007 10:53 PM   
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Try to take my guns and I'll vote (R).

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» RE: Simple as this: Posted by: YogiBear

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Guns, weapons are not the problem
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Posted by: Lector on Apr 18, 2007 12:10 AM   
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it is the failure of our society to produce people with a sense of responsibility and self-control. In this case, the south Korean student had immersed himself in this society.

Banning guns will not reduce violence. Knife crimes would go up. The gun-runners would get rich, etc. etc. Find the causes of the sickness in our society that makes people use guns to deal with their personal problems and we'll have less to worry about.

Robert Lightfoot

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LOL @ the confusion
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Posted by: breakingatoms on Apr 18, 2007 7:19 AM   
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Let me add to it.

Why do these kind of violent acts occur? You have no solution for them that is why. Laws won’t stop them. Christianity won’t stop them. The education system won’t stop them. This is your lifestyle. This is how you are. This is the American dream. This is democracy at its best. This is the good old days, the future, and the past. This every thing you hoped it would be. This is your worst nightmare taken place on a picture perfect day with a happy ending. This is a piece of our favorite puzzle that most of us dread putting together because we don’t want to see the big picture. It’s a brand new present wrapped in red paper that you cannot open for all eternity, but that has a list of every thing you should do contained within it. This is progress, modernity, and democracy, liberty, and justice for all. It’s the pursuit of happiness. This is what our forefathers intended.

Please don’t let my disdain for you mourning idiots lead you to believe that I don’t care about the victims of this shooting. To be honest I don’t care that they died, but I do hope that at least a few them were prepared to let go and leave this world behind other wise they could be right back here and possibly die again the same way. That’s really all that matters to me regarding this incident. Fuck bush.

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the absurdity of Heterogeneity
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Posted by: argos on Apr 18, 2007 8:25 AM   
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America, far from being the paragon of diversity is deeply divided along superficial racial lines, so the segregation that you are calling for is far more likely the root of this kind of violence than a solution to it. It’s a rather arrogant belief which presumes that America is a place of vibrant diversity (though parts of it assuredly are) let alone that this diversity is the root of its problems.
Unfortunately, your notion is representative of the opinions held by members of all races which I think reflects deeper human impulses on which you yourself reflect eg.”... the fact that people get along better with people that look like them than others...”. This is quite a bit to presume on the behalf of most humans. What people look like is a superficial index and only a limited aspect of who they are. There’s a lot more to “getting along” with other humans than skin pigment, clothing or even common ancestry. If you have not discovered this, you are definitely missing out on or overlooking a key life experience.
I would caution you, and those who would agree with you to look more deeply into this phenomenon and think of yourself as a member of the human race.

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The infaibble law of Karma.
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Posted by: govindas on Apr 18, 2007 5:21 PM   
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While most people are disturbed by events in this material world,the wise,having realised that it's just a series of karmic reactions going on eternally,is unaffected by any events in this material world.

By the mercy of the Lord,we cannot easily,though some hypnotists and yogis can,see our last lives and what sort of persons we were before.Such arrangement is expertly done by divine ways,so as people are brought together in this lifetime,and repair whatever injustice or good actions they have done in past lives.
US soldiers in the past have been in Asiatic countries,and have mercilessly killed,thinking there won't be any reactions in future,as they were just obeying a President.
But any single action is recorded at high level,and has to be paid eventually,if not in this lifetime,it will be in the next.
Wise persons are very careful not to indulge in wrongful actions,knowing this eternal law,that works in spite of one's disbelief in such law.
Many people act just like robots,brainwashed by false "religions",and politicians,thinking they are eternally protected by such higher authorities and divine powers.
But any person knows what is wrong or right,as the Lord is present in each of us:it's the voice of our conscience,our soul,who is linked with God.

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I watched Bowling for Columbine
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Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 19, 2007 12:44 AM   
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And I came to the conclusion that Moore had no answer to gun violence. Other countries have stricter gun laws and more violnce or more guns and less violence. I got the impression Moore wanted us to look more into why we fight than why we own guns.

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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: dignify on May 12, 2007 8:04 AM   
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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: spayed on May 12, 2007 8:59 AM   
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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: screwball on May 12, 2007 9:09 AM   
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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: zoroastrian on May 12, 2007 10:35 AM   
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Very Silly...
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Posted by: guybjones on Apr 17, 2007 7:43 AM   
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The "culture of violence" theory is naive. I'm not saying raising someone in an abusive household fosters mentally and emotionally healthy growth (look at the life of Richard Ramirez, "the nightstalker," as an example). I'm merely postulating that 1) there are mentally ill people present in society; 2) some of these people will be prone to acts of violence; and 3) no law or ordinance will ever be able to prevent such acts.

The human mind is complex, unpredictable, and yes, largely intangible, even to this day. We are animals, still, despite our lofty aspirations. This is the reality, end of story.

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» RE: Very Silly... Posted by: ccnygal13
» I beg to differ... Posted by: guybjones
» What's your explanation Posted by: geoff_canuck
» RE: What's your explanation Posted by: Blue Heron

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Heterogeneity
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 17, 2007 7:53 AM   
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I was not surprised to see that the issue of heterogeneity did not come up. The NRA (which I am a member) loves to point out that these type of shooting rarely happen in places like Idaho or the Dakotas which is nearly all white. They just point out the fact that nearly all adults own firearms. You do see more violence in DC NY or NO with their diverse and multicultural populations.

The left is always exalting country's like Norway and Finland for their social programs like universal health care. How diverse are the people in those countries? How does 6'5'' Blue eyed blond haired Sven Jorganson respond when an olive skinned 5'6'' Turkish man named Mohamed wants a piece of his pie (or danish what ever the case may be).

There is nothing you can do about it really as far as America goes. It just pisses me off that no one wants to acknowledge the fact that people get along better with people that look like them than others. This is not exclusive to people that fit the description of my user name either.

Off topic but:
If I am white, They are black/brown/yellow/red
If they are African/Latin/Asian/native American, I am a European American.

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Socialization, Culture, and Gender
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Posted by: frosty86 on Apr 17, 2007 8:08 AM   
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I was glad that Michael Moore's film addressed the fact that our culture and socialization play a BIG role in influencing our behavior and can enable violence. When there are significant differences among countries in the level of gun-violence and the level of sexual violence, you CANNOT say this is a problem of sick individuals. There is something else going on. It is not human nature or genetic to be violent b/c there are soo many people in the world who aren't violent? Are they somehow able to counterract their genes and their nature? It's all about how we're socialized and what messages we get on a daily basis from the world around us.

Unfortunately, Michael Moore's film never once focused on the issue of gender and masculinity. These school shootings are not "kids killing kids." The perpetrators are overwhelmingly boys and men. Over 95% of all violent crimes are committed by men, so this is a gendered phenomenon. We need to reflect on the messages we are giving young men and women about what it means to be a "real man" or simply to be a man. Given the violence and hyper-masculinity depicted in movies and music videos along with the militarization of our culture, young boys learn that violence and aggression is an appropriate way to handle disagreement and express themselves. And when it comes to sexual violence, women are overwhelmingly the victims of ovewhelmingly male perpetrators.

Can we please stop depoliticizing these events by chalking them up to individual weirdos who snap one day and actually focus on how our larger culture plays a role??

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» 180 degrees Posted by: Iconoclast421

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A field day for the gun nut lobby
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 17, 2007 8:14 AM   
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Led by Rivero over at whatreallyhappened.com... AS IF arming everyone in society like the Wild West would stop something like this. These retarded morons NEVER ask themselves what would have happened in that classroom if everyone had been armed, from the teacher to every student... NOTHING WOULD HAVE CHANGED, in the free-for-all panic that followed, they would have all SHOT EACH OTHER. If anything, the carnage would have happened QUICKER. "One Tin Soldier" rides away. NOT. Only in the freakin' movies.

Already the morons are yelling "More guns!!! More guns!!! GUNS would have prevented this!"

Yeah, until the first armed teacher goes postal on her class and takes out every single student.

Gun nuts never think, not for a single second. What do you expect of idiots that think owning an arsenal is going to stand up to a government tank and ATF SWAT team at the front door? Did their arsenal save Waco, Gun Nuts? Did their arsenal save Ruby Ridge? Or more your speed, Jonestown?

On the contrary, when the government brings a tank to your next door neighbor to take out THEIR moronic arsenal, you're just liable to lose a couple of kids and family members in the shootout if you can't get the hell out and away from the firefight in time.

Gun nuts are probably the stupidest most suicidal people on earth, and the real pity is they really see themselves as "survivalists." Pawns for a multi-billion dollar industry that is backed by the elite for the sole purpose of having an idiot populace KILL EACH OTHER so they won't have to.

Good luck when that tank shows up at your front door, and trust me; it WILL.

Friggin' morons. Is de-arming society the answer then?

Duh. De-arming these nuts means that when the tank comes, everyone at least survives.

But no, that's too logical for gun NUTS. They all need to go out in the wilderness WITH THEIR GUNS and live in caves... caves can stand up to tanks. Until an ATF shoulder-fired bunker buster improves the overall intelligence of the human race.

And Charlton Heston? Don't get me STARTED on that tired-out old whore...

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» obi-wan Posted by: funknjunk
» RE: obi-wan Posted by: xbj
» RE: A field day for the nutty gun grabbers Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: A field day for the nutty gun grabbers Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» LEEEEROOOOOY JEEEEENNNNNNKIIIINSSSS! Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» This Exchange Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: xbj
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: xbj
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: This Exchange Posted by: xbj
» Problem with Bans Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Problem with Bans Posted by: xbj
» Hitler was for gun control Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: i meant 2000 (nm) Posted by: blaine s

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dick
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Posted by: rtmyth on Apr 17, 2007 8:27 AM   
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Not to worry. The NRA has already issued the solution; students should be armed on campuses.

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» One single weapon Posted by: YogiBear

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Using the same tactics?
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Posted by: dbatterman on Apr 17, 2007 8:55 AM   
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Most of the above comments have had very insightful things to say. But we should avoid indulging in the same broad-stroked generalizations that the NRA engages in. (see xbj's comments above.) I hope the irony of advocating violence against "Gun Nuts" isn't lost on them.
(And if the "nuts" were de-armed when the tank arrived, they still wouldn't survive. Tell that to the unarmed people who have been killed in Iraq.)
There are a million ways to look at this tradgedy, and the article did a good job of not pointing the finger at one scapegoat but recommending a movie which takes a broader view. It's easy to point and scream "NRA BAD! GUN CONTROL GOOD!" but it doesn't change anything in the real world.

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» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: yellow
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932
» RE: Using the same tactics? Posted by: dll932

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Follow up by reading Going Postal by Mark Ames
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Posted by: J- on Apr 17, 2007 9:01 AM   
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Before this becomes a a guns/no guns yelling match, read Going Postal by Mark Ames, after you watch Bowling for Columbine, of course.

And I agree, even though I'm going to hear about it, that this didn't really have anything to with guns. Remember, it could have just as easily been a rented truck full of fertilizer and diesel fuel.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that comparisons to Columbine should be on an environmental and sociological level, and not from a physical security standpoint. Securing a single building is much easier to do, and to respond to incidents in, than a 2600 acre campus.

Please, above all, don't resort to name calling or yelling. That's not going to help. Real discourse is what is needed, and back to my earlier statement, blaming inanimate objects, while easy, will never solve anything. Things we should be talking about are a failure or lack of a public mental health infrastructure, the dominance of athletics within the academic environments or possibly the effect of media on society in general.

Read Mark Ames book, Going Postal, and then see if it's still a black and white issue.

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Stop Calling ME Nuts !
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Posted by: alaskagrrl on Apr 17, 2007 9:13 AM   
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Obviously you have a are uncomfortable around weapons. Sorry, but I am not. I live in Alaska where bears can jump out from behind a bush and kill me. So I carry a gun. I even had to use it once for a moose attack (they kill more people here than bears).

If I hadn’t had that weapon, I would be dead. Don’t assume anything about my judgment, I am a professional wilderness guide with unassailable credentials.

Sometimes, what you need is a handy weapon. Sorta like those poor students in VA.

If I were there, I could have laid down cover fire while at least some of the students escaped. Even with his bullet proof vest I would have likely ended the catastrophe with a head shot. That’s because I know how to handle my weapon.

In Alaska we have no concealed permit laws. We simply have a right to arm ourselves. NOT from the government, such assumption is foolish. We arm ourselves against Criminals. Even little old ladies carry arms in their purses, and you know what ?

Criminals pause....

I have to ask the Gun Control People this question: When confronted what are you supposed to do to protect yourself ? Dial 911 ? Give me a break....

That’s takes a lot of faith. I have more faith in my trained hand and weapon. Are you folks so generous that you would sacrifice your own lives for the presumed ‘greater good’ that comes from an unarmed society ?

That last question is best answered when you are facing death. Or better yet, when your child is facing death. Then imagine yourself with a gun.

Would you use it -- or would you roll over and die for your beliefs ?

Be honest.

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» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: texshelters
» You ignorant Slut... Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: You ignorant Slut... Posted by: argos
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: JMorse
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» Oh right, my bad.... Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: Oh right, my bad.... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Stop Calling ME Nuts ! Posted by: Rathan47

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Between a Rock and a Hard Place...
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Posted by: CatDad on Apr 17, 2007 9:21 AM   
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The Right wants to solve the school shooting problem with the same strategy that are using in Iraq....The “solution” to the carnage in Iraq and stopping American troops deaths is to send in “more” troops....The “solution” to the school shooting problem is “more” guns....

The media/entertainment industry will not pull back from violent shows/movies/games....they're too profitable. This nation is saturated with guns and with Tim McVeigh we already know what will happen if people perceive that their guns are going to be taken away. The Dems have so compromised themselves on economic issues that they jump all over themselves (like Kerry) to show that they love guns too.

The best we can do is work on intervention and school safety/lockdown strategies. The Right Wing has basically won on the issue of gun ownership. Congratulations guys...hope you’re happy.

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» RE: This problem... Posted by: blaine s

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Gun don't kill...blah blah blah
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Posted by: texshelters on Apr 17, 2007 9:34 AM   
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Dear Public:

The logic of the radical gun lobby is without parellel. So let's look at it.

1. Guns don't kill people, people do...but how many people can you really kill more than one person at a time with a kitchen knife. Guns make it really easy to kill.

2. Cars kill people, why not ban cars. It's easier in many states to get a gun than a car, and guns were designed for one thing, to kill. Cars were not designed to kill. Should we ban penicillin because some people are alergic to it?

3. Doctors cause more accidental deaths than guns, so ban doctors. Maybe doctors do cause more "accidental deaths", but few doctors cause intential death. All gun deaths are intentional.

4. If you criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns. So, we should allow anyone to have crack because if we ban crack, only crackheads will use crack. Did anyone say we should fully ban guns? Perhaps we should have background and personality checks before letting everyone and anyone have a gun. Perhaps an automatic weapon isn't needed to stop an intruder or hunt deer. Why not ban the manufacture and sale of these weapons?

5. More guns, less crime. Having more guns has not been proven to reduce crime. There are many more factors that have been shown to reduce crime, and it's not gun ownership. It's inaccurate statistic like this that prevent us from dealing with gun violence in our society.

6. Why do places with stricter gun laws have more gun violence? BECAUSE THE LAWS WERE PASSED DUE TO THE HIGH RATE OF GUN VIOLENCE! Gun laws don't cause gun violence, they are a reaction to the violence.

The paranoia and cowardous of the "guns at any cost" crowd is astounding. The same set of Bush/Limbaugh lies are used to scare people into the belief that 1) there are people out there who want to take away all of your guns, and 2) you will actually be safer with a gun.

I don't care if individuals have guns. However, can't we enact common sense safe guards to prevent massacres like the one at Va. Tech?

Culture, psychology, political climate, and economics all have to do with gun violence. Keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally unstable, and the anti-social personalities, and ban multi-shot weapons only created to kill en masse, and that would be a good start. Sure, guns don't kill people, but it makes it easier for people like Cho Seung-Hui to kill dozens of people before being stopped.

Should massacres like this be the price we pay to defend the second amendment at all costs? Or should we accept things the way they are, throw up our hands and say, "shoot away".

Joe Tex

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» A couple of points... Posted by: dbatterman
» RE: A couple of points... Posted by: psychochurch
» Gun shows Posted by: texshelters
» RE: Gun shows Posted by: dbatterman
» The issue is not about guns..... Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: The issue is not about guns..... Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Gun don't kill...blah blah blah Posted by: Iconoclast421

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You wrote this exploitative essay before the bodies were even cold.
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Posted by: alterpa123 on Apr 17, 2007 9:42 AM   
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"Do not doubt that the National Rifle Association is preparing its "this-had-nothing-to-do-with-guns" press release. The group has no compunctions about living up to its reputation for being beyond shame -- or education -- when it comes to peddling its spin on days when it would be better to simply remain silent. But the NRA will not be alone in responding in a self-serving manner."

Pot meet kettle.

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» STATEMENT BY THE NRA Posted by: ateo
» RE: STATEMENT BY THE NRA Posted by: texshelters

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Time to get rid of most semiautomatics -- and especially ammo
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Posted by: Moonray on Apr 17, 2007 9:49 AM   
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I'm an Army vet and no pacifist, but the writing is on the wall: We need to get rid of the vast majority of semiautomatic weapons and -- most importantly -- the ammunition.

Most gun owners should be allowed to own only revolvers and single-shot rifles and shotguns, and a few rounds of ammo for self-protection, with tough penalties for owning more. Target shooting would have to take place in gun clubs.

Metal detectors should be installed in virtually all public places.

Those tough guys who claim they would never give up their guns would change their tune fast if the first few violators received stiff jail terms. Enough is enough.

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» I AGREE Posted by: HistArch

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If gun control works....
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Posted by: PJH67 on Apr 17, 2007 10:00 AM   
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If gun control works, then how come Washington, D.C. remained one of the most dangerous cities in the U.S. even after they banned gun ownership?

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» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou
» RE: If gun control works.... Posted by: sweetlou

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Good Thing Native Americans Didn't Have Schools
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Posted by: hole11 on Apr 17, 2007 10:04 AM   
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Or guns before they were marched all the way to Oklahoma. How many died during that one?

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» Of what are you afraid? Posted by: geoff_canuck

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One more bloody massacre...
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 17, 2007 10:14 AM   
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Just a few months ago, 65 people, mostly students, were killed in a senseless act of violence a lot like this one... but the difference is that everone knows the name of Virginia Tech, but what was the name of the university in Baghdad? The story is at 65 killed as Baghdad university bombed, by Ammar Karim AFP January 16, 2007

On Tuesday around 100 people were killed, mostly in Baghdad, but the day's deadliest attack came from the twin blasts at the entrance of the renowned Mustansiriyah University in east Baghdad, security officials said.

The explosions ripped through dozens of students, teachers, and employees of the university as they were heading home at the end of the day, killing 65 and wounding 138.

The massive bombings left a number of nearby cars completely burned and many bodies charred in their parked vehicles, a witness said.

The dead and wounded were rushed to city hospitals in bed sheets, blankets, stretchers, and a number of pickup trucks.

Burned corpses could be seen lying on the street outside the university, their mobile telephones ringing unanswered, the photographer said.
(It was Mustansiriyah University)

NPR was running stories about the need for counseling for all the students at Virginia Tech after the tragic event, and that seems like the right thing to do - but NPR barely covered the Baghdad bombing.

What you see in the US was an immediate push by the NRA public relations team, all over the rightwing radio shows and blogs - yup, now's the time to push the 'right of citizens to bear arms' (oops - he wasn't a citizen, just someone who had no problem getting his hands on a weapon...) - just another public relations moment for the NRA.

300 people were killed in Iraq last weekend. Over the last ten days in Iraq, some 34 US soldiers have been killed, and who knows? 500 civilians? The media will try and play this up as some unique tragedy, but the public knows it's just more meaningless, inexplicable slaughter in an out-of-control world.

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» Thank you for these facts. Posted by: tlCampbell

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Everybody will use this to push their agendas
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Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 17, 2007 10:26 AM   
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Just like everybody used the violence of September 11th to push through their agendas.

The anti-immigration people will have a field day with it.

We all need to be vigilant as different groups try to manipulate the outpouring of grief and anger.

This is so sad. I wish humanity were going in a better direction. Sometimes it feels like taking a chisel to a mountain.

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The culture of militarism
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Posted by: fmindlin on Apr 17, 2007 10:42 AM   
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In all the media coverage of Virginia Tech, , only the Independent of London has mentioned the militaristic background of the University--

"Virginia Tech ... is one of only two civilian universities in the US with a corps of cadets who undergo military training on campus. Until 1966 it was a requirement for all male students to have received military training."

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Words from a "Bowling for Columbine" fan
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Apr 17, 2007 10:41 AM   
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I thought it was a great documentary, but I did not perceive it as having an "anti-gun" message. I am pro-gun and I think the first short term step is to allow Virginia's concealed carry permit to extend to cover the campus grounds. It might not have saved any lives, but I think there could have at least been that possibility.

But tougher gun laws... what will that do? It's another one of those "but the border is wide open" issues. You aren't going to stop someone from premeditatively taking their own life and taking as many people with them as they can, if that is what they are hellbent on doing. If he could not have bought a gun he probably would have obtained one through some other means. And what if there were no guns? Do you know how many people one could mow down with an SUV? I'm not sure of the statistics, but I would not be surprised if SUVs kill more people than guns! Perhaps it is time to ban driving? And we should also have our hands chopped off because as we learned on 9/11, even a box cutter can do enormous damage. And we should all be lobotomized, because who knows what type of sadistic "weapons of moderate destruction" an errant mind might conjure? (Can you say ANFO?)

People need to understand that anyone can inflict harm on anyone at nearly any given moment if they so choose, and what keeps us from doing so is this thing called civility. Fear of god is pretty much a lost cause, and fear of punishment is irrelevant when someone has already chosen to pay with their own life. We really have only two choices... accept more of the prisoner's mindset, sacrificing liberty for security. Or work on this civility problem. Lack of empathy, consumerist isolationism, gross inequality, injustice, entrenched power... address those problems, or live like a slave in the world, and as a prisoner in your own mind. But hey, I guess as long as we have Jack Bauer that is an acceptable compromise.

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Books? Culture? Art?
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Apr 17, 2007 11:10 AM   
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If Americans would put down their guns for 1 second and indulge in more humanist pursuits, these massacres would not be nearly as common. Even cavemen armed with guns could not have been as trigger-happy as yanks are today.

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» RE: Books? Culture? Art? Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Books? Culture? Art? Posted by: dll932

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Nothing but Inevitable
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 17, 2007 11:35 AM   
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Once again we hear the NRA proposed solution as it looms:

more guns, give everyone a gun, legally require gun ownership, issue a 9mm to every adolescent, child and adult.

When does it stop? When you go to Canada, a big sign at the border with a crossmark across a firearm greets American visitors. Keep your firearms out America. Our homicide rate and firearm tragedy death rate isn't 1/10th of yours. But, get this America, if you make the means of killing people legal and available, of course it will be used. It's just plain common sense that this is an invitation to disaster. Of course, we will hear the famliar refrain: "guns don't kill, people do." Well, nuclear weapons don't kill either, people do. Therefore, should we issue nukes to all private citizens? Same logic at work.

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» RE: Nothing but Inevitable Posted by: Blue Heron
» RPGs for Christ Posted by: amacd
» RE: Nothing but Inevitable Posted by: dll932

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Here It Comes Again
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Posted by: sgtstan on Apr 17, 2007 12:02 PM   
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It has begun again: the incessant rhetoric and speculation from uninformed newscasters and pundits regarding the reasons why such tragic events occur. Everyone’s an amateur psychologist, especially the talking heads whose job it is to fill airtime on television.

News reporters have become part of the news, rather than just reporters of facts. And to fill the time allowed them, reporters have already thrown out comments such as: “If only little Timmy didn’t have a gun, he wouldn’t have killed Susie” and “Could stricter gun regulations have prevented this tragedy?” It never fails to amuse that reporters rarely put the onus of responsibility on the individual who committed the crime.

And its not that all reporters are left-wing sociologists blaming society for every spilt cup of milk. They say these things because they don’t know what else to say. With their blank faces in front of a camera, they try to hold the audience’s attention by promising the latest details, while in reality they await the facts as fed them by the real investigators – the police.

But they never fail to revive the gun control issue.

I would suggest that, before any more of you embarrass yourselves blaming the NRA and “gun nuts,” educate yourselves. Simply put, not every gun owner joins nor supports the NRA, nor is every gun owner a “gun nut.” If you own a car or a pair of sneakers, does that make you a “car nut” or a “shoe nut?”

The following links take you to two articles regarding the recent rise in violent crime in Great Britain, despite heavier and stricter gun control since the 1950’s.

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/7/10/203335
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/3/21/205139

Also, please check out this book from John R. Lott, Jr., concerning the media coverage of firearms usage in this country: “The Bias against Guns.”
http://www.johnlott.org

And lastly, check out Dave Grossman’s “On Combat” for some fantastic insight into just about everything that has to do with firearms use, how our children are being trained to kill, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Dave-Grossman/dp/0964920514

One more thing I find utterly reprehensible is the continued grading of such killings. “This is the worst killing of its kind in US history.” Doesn’t that just beg one-ups-manship? My wife said she hated to hear the extensive media comparisons of such killings for two reasons. First, instead of being treated as an aberration, the media will spread the fear of such actions nationwide (as usual.) Secondly, because it will successfully result in another similar scenario elsewhere. And not simply because a gun is available…

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» The right tool for the job Posted by: supercrisp
» RE: Here It Comes Again Posted by: yellow

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under tighter gun control...
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Posted by: blaine s on Apr 17, 2007 12:40 PM   
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i am sure that even the criminals will relinquish thier guns.
Because, they are soooo law abiding....
This is more of a supply side issue. The manufacture needs to be limited, not the ability to responsibly own them.
Look at the statistics out of Australia sinced the forced gun ban; crime is up, notably armed robbery (especially against the elderly) and murder.
And if leaving it up to law enforcement to handle, why was the death toll so high? They were already on the scene before the majority of shots were fired.

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Bodyguard
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Posted by: Lacr0ix on Apr 17, 2007 1:24 PM   
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Moore is a hack. His "documentary" is an opinion-piece, not a documentary.

Liberal cowards are always for "gun-control" (for everyone EXCEPT their paid bodyguards).

Self-protection is both a right and a responsibility. The case-law is clear that Police have no duty to protect people. They are charged with protection of "society". When it comes to violence, you're on your own, in the right-now.

I thought liberals were all about protecting the oppressed - the the poor, the weak, the sick, the elderly, THE WOMEN...

This is why liberals can't get elected in this country, because, like the so-called conservatives they don't respect ALL human rights. They want to pick and choose. Liberals want all human rights except the right of an old person or a single mother to protection from violent attack. Lately, conservatives seem to want just that one right, and let's forget the others.

Notice which one right the people cling to - the right of self-protection and survival...

Gun control discriminates most against minorities, the poor, the sick, the elderly, and WOMEN - the people who are in high-crime areas, and/or who can't adequately defend themselves against a large strong aggressive young male weilding a (completely legal) screwdriver or tire-iron.

What is it liberals - Are you for affording the woman protecion from rape - or is it that you think her right to aborting the resulting fetus will make everything just fine?

People commit crimes because - they're people, and some people are aggressive. It's in the NATURE of people. Aren't liberals supposed to be all secular and scientific? Don't they believe in DARWIN? The answer is in your own mouth - You have BOTH kinds of teeth.

When some people let out the monster, the only thing that will stop that monster - is a bullet. It's sad, it's ugly, it's even disgusting. But, it's a fact of life.

There have been "no gun" rules on every campus on which shootings have taken place. This is not called "safety". It's called delusion, because "no gun" zones are really "criminal empowerment zones" - places in which the aggressive predatory people know they are safe to attack the otherwise defenseless - the sick, the elderly and WOMEN.

There was only one thing that could have stopped that guy in VA from killing so many victims. It wasn't media control of violent "entertainment". It wasn't "more gun laws". It was just ONE - law-abiding, competent, upstanding citizen exercising their inalienable right to posess the means of self-protection - and then using that means in the terrible moment it was undeniably necessary.

This was a CRIME (not a "tragedy"). The tragedy of yesterday was that all those people were victimized by their school and their government when those institutions abrogated the students' right to life by denying them the lawful means of legal and necessary self-protection. All the criminial did was shoot them - The school and the state stripped them of protection and held them down while he did it.

Get over the irrational fear if inanimate objects. Knives, guns, chainsaws, decks of cards.

ALL civil rights are FOR ALL people. Not select civil rights for select people (and their bodyguards, cronies, etc).

The "liberals" are no better than the "conservatives" in this regard, and they will continue to LOSE elections until they embrace all civil rights for all people - including and especially the right of survival in the face of a violent attacker.

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» RE: Bodyguard Posted by: craftne
» RE: I'm afraid Posted by: Lacr0ix
» why liberals cant get elected Posted by: Iconoclast421

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Strong people don't need weapons to be strong
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Posted by: anniedine on Apr 17, 2007 1:36 PM   
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Elderly blind chimpanzees can be taught how to point a gun and shoot – it takes neither strength or brains to kill with a gun. Killing is the easy, exciting part; that's why so many people like to indulge in the fantasy of it.

It takes advanced intelligence, advanced emotional maturity, and advanced mental strength to do the right thing. The right thing does not involve weapons or killing of any kind.

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Can't even let the bodies cool, can you?
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Posted by: Boomerang on Apr 17, 2007 1:53 PM   
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You can't even let people be buried before you start trying to capitalize on the events for your own political gain. You and John McCain must be cut from opposite sides of the same cloth.

Shame on both of you.

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Talking Sense, not ego and entitlement
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Posted by: craftne on Apr 17, 2007 2:27 PM   
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We MUST not keeping crying "second amendment" while firearm attacks and suicides continue. We have failed our "right" to bear arms. In the past 16 months, six schools shootings, perhaps more. Add to that suicide and accidental gun deaths.

If you want to hunt or go to the range, rent guns.

Who do you trust to own a gun? How about neighbors? How about coworkers? Do you trust the sanity of those around you? School bus drivers? Bank tellers? What if you knew every retail shop employee had a gun in his pocket?

Is this the way you want your world to be? 300 MILLION people with guns. How about bloggers with psychotic tendencies? Let's give guns to all schoolchildren to take to school. How about psychotics who aren't under treatment because they have the "right" not to have to be? Taxi cab drivers. Postmen. How about we bring them on trains and planes? To restaurants? We can shoot anyone who gives us bad service!

My family/friends are in a debate, and some don't trust the government or the police if we choose to enact very strict gun control. Further, they say the solution is looking into why gunmen go whacko.

Why he was so whacked out?
Look at the suicide rates.
Look at all the traumatised fearful people in the US.
Look at the anger levels.
Look at the sense of entitlement.
Look at unemployment.
Look at the lack of help for the middle class.
Look at companies like Circuit City, firing to hire more cheaply.
Look at the fundamentalism (Read "Under the Banner of Heaven: The Story of a Violent Faith")
Low at illiteracy.
Look at the levels of mental problems.
Addiction.
IQ levels.

How uncommon a response do you think it is if a gun is within reach or easily obtained? How sane do you believe those around YOU are?

I lived in Australia for 5 of the past 7 years. The difference in living there with strict gun control laws is simply amazing. In 1996, this happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre

Australia had the same kind of "right". After the massacre, very strict gun control was enacted, and now it's very safe. In Sydney, I went to ATMs at night, I rode public transport at night, I didn't have to clutch my purse close or worry about where I walked. I LIVED the difference.

I don't trust John Howard either, but I was very safe. I don't feel safe here. I'm not as desensitised as all of you.

We are NOT taught to take responsibility - even our leaders, by example, blame everyone else – look at the blame game surrounding this tragedy already.

While our government could become a threat, and the police could become a threat, statistics show this is not the case in Western countries where they've chosen to adopt strict gun control.

I distrust regular people more. With the greed, selfishness, narrow-mindedness, fundamentalism, a huge sense of entitlement in America, violence becomes commonplace. Your coworker could be the one gone over the edge next. You could lose your wife, your kids, your parents, your brother, anyone. You could die. YOU.

Second shootings at VT since this school year began.

How many murders and suicides will it take before we realise that guns are the problem? Look at the chart and statistics here:

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Look at "Intentional Self Harm". The numbers jump 300% when a gun is introduced. Look at "Operations of war and sequelae" and "Legal intervention with firearm". Suicide is the 5th biggest killer, firearm assault is 7th. The odds you will die in war - is minuscule.

You have the right to bear a kitchen knife. Past that, I don't trust regular citizens. Nope. Not at all.

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» spot on! love your points Posted by: nor cal surfer

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Just a game?
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Posted by: Just a Dad on Apr 17, 2007 2:29 PM   
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As a Dad of four I wonder why every body is so shocked that America is so violent. We train kids to point guns at people and shoot. This training is packaged in many forms and called a game. I saw a video on youtube called Just a Game? It is less than a minute long and I think it says it all. I hope those reading this will take a moment to watch it on youtube.

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» RE: Just a game? Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Just a Dad
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Just a Dad
» thank you. good words. Posted by: nor cal surfer
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Topaz
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Just a Dad
» RE: Just a game? Posted by: Topaz

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A Country Where Buying Sudafed Is Harder than Buying a Gun
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 17, 2007 2:58 PM   
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In Canada, the gun homicide rate is 8 times lower than in the USA.

This is even after you figure in all the guns smuggled into the country from the USA (a big problem Canada has confronted Bush about).

As for USA pro gun people and their cherry picked stats, I have news for them, not a single country in the world with good gun control is getting rid of it. In fact, they all want more of it. It's time to establish an international system they all say. Do away with the gun culture, the same way other problems, like global warming, arms proliferation, human rights violations, etc., all need to be tackled. But, first you have to deal with the USA. A country where 40% of the adults own firearms. A country where so many are so dumb as to think that just having more guns and more guns is going to make them safer. If you have a country where it is harder to buy Sudafed than a gun, just what do you think is going to happen? It's not so hard to figure this out, unless you are blinded by idealogy.

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» you want a cherry-picked stat? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Buying Sudafed Posted by: YogiBear

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Where to find Just a Game video
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Posted by: Just a Dad on Apr 17, 2007 3:38 PM   
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Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtL6tn7joVA

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You all totally misunderstand the 2nd Amendment
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Posted by: Wassermann on Apr 17, 2007 4:42 PM   
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The 2nd Amendment was put in place so that citizens could protect themselves from a tyrannical government (and bring it down by force if necessary by using said guns), NOT so that everyone could carry handguns in public places.

If 2nd Amendment rights are further reduced, there will be NOTHING preventing the current U.S. government from spiraling further in to tyranny because the citizens will be left totally defenseless/offenseless.

Or do you all propose bringing down a tyrannical government (should it ever come to that) by using pitchforks, homemade torches, and posters?

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» we can't get half that to vote! Posted by: nor cal surfer

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we need cars to drive, we need knives to cut food
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Posted by: nor cal surfer on Apr 17, 2007 4:54 PM   
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we don't need guns.

arming this fucktard population w/an average IQ of a 90-100 is like giving matches to a child. especially in light of the preference for Jack Bauer torture over Janet Jackson titties. we are programatically predisposed to accept hyper-violence as a means to an end, and totally freak out over mother nature and her God given products (yeah, throw weed in there too). hmmm. i sense a basic of fear of women. holdovers from the Gaian age >5,000 years ago, guys?

c-mon, people. this starts with guns and it ends with guns. make every gun illegal. the constitution is ready for that ammendment. NRA: go fuck yourself.

after all, NRA freaks: you really wanna point your Glock at an incoming A10 Warthog? if every gun was illegal for civilians to own, you'd be more worried about your lotto chances than some offKilter idiot kicking in your door w/an automatic weapon. right now, as it stands, you do, and your insanity/fantasy is part of that status-fucked-up-quo.

look, you know it's easy folks:

1) leave weaponry to professional soldiers. U.S. people: don't give me the Swiss bullshit either. they have a way more stitched together society that can obviously handle loaded machine guns in every house. you're still in Emotional Maturity Time Out Corner.
2) rebuild the education system. pay teachers more than lawyers (ie: switch the expeditures for defense w/education)
3) let the folks on TV curse, have sex. Fuck, we do it every day anyway. no more 10 bullets to the torso and the blond hero stumbles to his fallen Uzi to save the day at :56 in.
4) make drugs illegal. wow. you can finally pull that railroad tie out of your temple and you won't implode! imagine the revenues, time freed for REAL things, like catching rapists and thieves.
5) hmmm. that should do it. just see the above 4.

now. please prove me wrong. bring it.

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» lesson learned Posted by: nor cal surfer

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Guns or not, America is a sick and decaying society
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 17, 2007 8:40 PM   
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It is an obvious fact that if guns were less accessible then killing sprees would involve guns less often. The statement is self evident. It goes deeper than that.

Making guns more difficult to obtain wouldn't solve the problems in our society that create the people who commit these acts. If guns were more difficult to obtain then perhaps a person seeking to inflict pain and suffering upon society (which is really what their goal is, their indiscriminate killing can be explained no other way) would learn how to make a bomb and use that tactic. Bombs may kill more people, or less. It is, in all honesty, irrelevant.

Whether a man with a gun kills 32 people or a bomb kills 60 or a knife/sword kills 5 we have to ask the question, why is America producing people who feel they have no recourse but a suicidal rampage? It is a sign of sickness and decay not that America marginalizes people as America always has, but that the marginalized feel they have no means to exist in anything resembling happiness in our country.

In times past America marginalized groups of people to such a degree that they had every reason to strike back at those oppressing them. Think of native Americans, slaves, the mass poverty we have experienced at various times. Yet something kept them from acting out. What was that force? It was community, a sense of belonging in your own community even if the greater society shunned you. Community gave them a taste of happiness and hope in a country that was rigged against them. America has lost its sense of community to such a degree that an individual who is marginalized for whatever reason feels, rightly, completely alone with nobody to offer help or even advice.

Our consumerist society thrives because it produces people who want things they cannot obtain. This produces psychological conflict in individuals when their wants (that may be perceived as needs) are not met. Hence you have the rants against "rich kids." Every American is chasing the same dream and not every one of us is going to reach it.

Americans today are much better off than Americans in the past but even the children of middle class people will describe their childhood in terms that indicate that they were left wanting. In reality most of them were left wanting, that's the nature of our culture. I've met people who grew up in an upper middle class suburb of D.C. that believe they were poor growing up. In fact, I've rarely run into anyone who doesn't think that they were deprived as children even if they grew up in a stable middle class family in one of the wealthiest areas of the country. Everyone's reaching for the brass ring and it's moving continuously away from our grasp.

People fail because they set unrealistic goals that, if somehow accomplished, would allow them to buy all of the things they want. When these failures occur they seek someone to blame and in America blaming oneself is the last thing we do so they naturally conclude that they have been held back by society at large and seek revenge by inflicting as much pain as possible on those perceived to have held them back. So a lack of community to act as a safety net combined with unattainable wants generated by our consumer society produces miserable people out for revenge.

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» yes! nailed great points, ateo Posted by: nor cal surfer

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Why people care about Virginia tech
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 17, 2007 8:49 PM   
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Another point I'd like to make is that the reason the Virginia tech shooting is being blown way out of proportion is because this attack occurred inside the middle class bubble of safety that they assume protects them and their children. I'm sure the remark, "so a bunch of white kids got shot" was uttered around the country more than once when this all went down. Shootings happen in some parts of the country every other day, "kids" in Iraq get blown up every day.

Middle class parents send their kids to college assuming they will be safe for a few years and maybe learn how to be an adult. Poor parents send their kids to Iraq and just hope they come back alive and remotely sane. There is a personal connection to the college environment for many people. That brings this attack home for them making it seem very personal.

All I can say is that as society breaks down, as the vast emptiness that is life without a community to support you grows to encompass more Americans, as the safety nets disappear one by one, expect more attacks of this nature and worse. I tell you, it's enough to make an atheist contemplate seeking religion if only for the sense of belonging and community.

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permanent war & weapons for all
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Posted by: mute on Apr 17, 2007 9:35 PM   
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here's a comment from a non-citizen:

i come from a country that's been through war in the 1990s. the laws about possessing guns are more strict than in the US. before the war, there was virtually *no* people shooting people, for the simple reason people didn't own guns. after the war, the situation changed: there were weapons left in people's homes and this, together with the post-war climate in which tolerance for violence is diminished, lead to more gun violence (Still far far far less than in the US). now, considering that the US have been at war more or less for the whole of the twentieth century (including various secret operations, cold war paranoia, etc), that the country has an *unbelievably* militarized culture and that guns are available to whoever wants to buy them, i don't see how anyone is surprised things like this school shooting happen. it really sounds ridiculous to even hear people debate over "whether free gun possession lead to more gun violence" -- is that a real question!? of course they do. the hypernationalistic culture of war certainly helps, too. believe me, for most people in the world having the "right to bear arms" in the constitution sounds really scary (and explains why this is such a violent country).

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Simple as this:
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 17, 2007 10:53 PM   
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Try to take my guns and I'll vote (R).

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» RE: Simple as this: Posted by: YogiBear

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Guns, weapons are not the problem
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Posted by: Lector on Apr 18, 2007 12:10 AM   
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it is the failure of our society to produce people with a sense of responsibility and self-control. In this case, the south Korean student had immersed himself in this society.

Banning guns will not reduce violence. Knife crimes would go up. The gun-runners would get rich, etc. etc. Find the causes of the sickness in our society that makes people use guns to deal with their personal problems and we'll have less to worry about.

Robert Lightfoot

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LOL @ the confusion
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Posted by: breakingatoms on Apr 18, 2007 7:19 AM   
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Let me add to it.

Why do these kind of violent acts occur? You have no solution for them that is why. Laws won’t stop them. Christianity won’t stop them. The education system won’t stop them. This is your lifestyle. This is how you are. This is the American dream. This is democracy at its best. This is the good old days, the future, and the past. This every thing you hoped it would be. This is your worst nightmare taken place on a picture perfect day with a happy ending. This is a piece of our favorite puzzle that most of us dread putting together because we don’t want to see the big picture. It’s a brand new present wrapped in red paper that you cannot open for all eternity, but that has a list of every thing you should do contained within it. This is progress, modernity, and democracy, liberty, and justice for all. It’s the pursuit of happiness. This is what our forefathers intended.

Please don’t let my disdain for you mourning idiots lead you to believe that I don’t care about the victims of this shooting. To be honest I don’t care that they died, but I do hope that at least a few them were prepared to let go and leave this world behind other wise they could be right back here and possibly die again the same way. That’s really all that matters to me regarding this incident. Fuck bush.

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the absurdity of Heterogeneity
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Posted by: argos on Apr 18, 2007 8:25 AM   
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America, far from being the paragon of diversity is deeply divided along superficial racial lines, so the segregation that you are calling for is far more likely the root of this kind of violence than a solution to it. It’s a rather arrogant belief which presumes that America is a place of vibrant diversity (though parts of it assuredly are) let alone that this diversity is the root of its problems.
Unfortunately, your notion is representative of the opinions held by members of all races which I think reflects deeper human impulses on which you yourself reflect eg.”... the fact that people get along better with people that look like them than others...”. This is quite a bit to presume on the behalf of most humans. What people look like is a superficial index and only a limited aspect of who they are. There’s a lot more to “getting along” with other humans than skin pigment, clothing or even common ancestry. If you have not discovered this, you are definitely missing out on or overlooking a key life experience.
I would caution you, and those who would agree with you to look more deeply into this phenomenon and think of yourself as a member of the human race.

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The infaibble law of Karma.
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Posted by: govindas on Apr 18, 2007 5:21 PM   
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While most people are disturbed by events in this material world,the wise,having realised that it's just a series of karmic reactions going on eternally,is unaffected by any events in this material world.

By the mercy of the Lord,we cannot easily,though some hypnotists and yogis can,see our last lives and what sort of persons we were before.Such arrangement is expertly done by divine ways,so as people are brought together in this lifetime,and repair whatever injustice or good actions they have done in past lives.
US soldiers in the past have been in Asiatic countries,and have mercilessly killed,thinking there won't be any reactions in future,as they were just obeying a President.
But any single action is recorded at high level,and has to be paid eventually,if not in this lifetime,it will be in the next.
Wise persons are very careful not to indulge in wrongful actions,knowing this eternal law,that works in spite of one's disbelief in such law.
Many people act just like robots,brainwashed by false "religions",and politicians,thinking they are eternally protected by such higher authorities and divine powers.
But any person knows what is wrong or right,as the Lord is present in each of us:it's the voice of our conscience,our soul,who is linked with God.

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I watched Bowling for Columbine
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Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 19, 2007 12:44 AM   
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And I came to the conclusion that Moore had no answer to gun violence. Other countries have stricter gun laws and more violnce or more guns and less violence. I got the impression Moore wanted us to look more into why we fight than why we own guns.

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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: dignify on May 12, 2007 8:04 AM   
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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: spayed on May 12, 2007 8:59 AM   
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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: screwball on May 12, 2007 9:09 AM   
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'Bowling for Columbine' Teaches How to Prevent Another Va. Tech Massacre
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Posted by: zoroastrian on May 12, 2007 10:35 AM   
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