COMMENTS: 240
The Frightening New Normalcy of Hating Your Body
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There is a girl, right now, staring in a mirror in Des Moines, scrutinizing her widening hips. There is a girl, right now, spinning like a hamster on speed in a gym on the fifth floor of a building in Boston, promising herself dinner if she goes two more miles. There is a girl, right now, trying to wedge herself into a dress two sizes too small in a Savannah shopping mall, chastising herself for being so lazy and fat. There is a girl, right now, in a London bathroom, trying not to get any vomit on her aunt's toilet seat. There is a girl, right now, in Berlin, cutting a cube of cheese and an apple into barely visible pieces to eat for her dinner.
Our bodies are places where our drive for perfection gets played out. Food is all around us, as are meals and the pressure that goes with them. Well-intentioned after-school specials teach us, from a very young age, how to purge our snacks. We are inundated with information about "good" and "bad" foods, the most effective workout regiments, the latest technological advancements in plastic surgery. We demand flawlessness in our appearance -- the outer manifestation of our inner dictators.
To some degree, this makes sense. People in general like to look at a pretty face -- which means they also like to be friends with a pretty face, do business with a pretty face, and marry a pretty face. Attractive people are desired and coddled in our society; they have an easier time getting jobs, finding boyfriends and girlfriends, getting parts in music videos, simply getting the average waiter's attention.
Even smart girls must be beautiful, even athletes must be feminine. Corporate CEOs, public intellectuals, and even accountants must be thin. Lorie, an 18-year-old from Portland, Maine, wrote, "Everyone wants to be skinny, because in life the skinny one gets the guy, the job, the love." A 10-year-old I interviewed in Santa Fe, N.M., broke it down for me even further: "It is better to be pretty, which means thin and mean, than to be ugly, which means fat and nice. That's just how it is."
The body is the perfect battleground for perfect-girl tendencies because it is tangible, measurable, obvious. It takes four long years to see "summa cum laude" etched across our college diplomas, but stepping on a scale can instantly tell us whether we have succeeded or failed.
The cruel irony is that although we become totally obsessed with the daily measures of how "good" or "bad" we are (refused dessert = good; didn't have time to go to the gym = bad), there is no finish line. This weight preoccupation will never lead us anywhere. It is a maniacal maze that always spits you out at the same point it sucked you up: wanting. We keep chasing after perfection as if it is an achievable goal, when really it is the most grand and painful of all mirages.
Beauty is the first impression of total success. Social psychologists call this the halo effect: We see one aspect of a person -- such as her nice hair -- and assume a host of other things about her -- that she is wealthy, effective and powerful. Looking good indicates control, dedication, grace. If you are beautiful, we learn, you are probably rich, lucky, and loved. You are probably sought after, seen, envied. You probably have ample opportunities for dates and promotions. Our generation does not generally equate beauty with stupidity the way our parents or grandparents sometimes did. Beautiful, to us, has come in savvy packages -- Tyra Banks creating her own empire, Candace Bushnell writing her way into found-hundred-dollar Manolo Blahniks.
If you are beautiful we have concluded, you can construct the perfect life -- even if you are not brilliant, well-educated, or courageous -- because the world will offer itself up to you. By contrast, if you are overweight -- even if you are brilliance, dynamic, funny and dedicated -- you have no chance at the perfect life. Thinness and beauty are the prerequisites for perfection, which to my generation appears to be the only road to happiness.
From a very young age, we see weight as something in our control. If we account for every calorie that we consume, if we plan our fitness schedule carefully and follow through, if we are exacting about our beauty regimen -- designer makeup, trendy clothes -- then, we conclude, we will be happy. And we can be beautiful if we are just committed enough -- no matter our genetics, our bank account, or our personality -- as we have learned from advertising and the American Dream ethos. This logic leads us to believe that, if we are unhappy, it is because of our weight and, in turn, our lack of willpower. We are our own roadblocks on this road to 21st century female perfection and happiness.
The Jungian psychologist Marion Woodman has our number:Was I just your average temperamental, overcommitted teenage girl in the middle of America? On some level, yes. I grew up in a middle-class household with a lawyer daddy, a homemaker/community volunteer/consulting therapist mommy, and a Nordic-looking, overprotective older brother (captain of the tennis, lacrosse and basketball teams, and a math genius). I rode my bike around the neighborhood, sold lemonade on the corner, and sneaked out of the house at midnight to toilet-paper big Victorian houses. The first time I told my boyfriend, who is from Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, that I used to get to middle school by carpool, he scoffed: "I thought those only existed in television sitcoms. Oh my god, you really do come from the Beaver Cleaver family!"
In an effort to be mature and independent ... a woman tries to be more and more perfect because the only way she can alleviate her dependence on that judgmental voice is to be perfect enough to shut it up. Thus the opposites meet in a terrifying contradiction. As she runs as fast as she can for independence via perfection, she runs into her own starving self, totally dependent and crying out for food.
Colorado Springs, Colo., was suburbia to the nth degree, home of strip mass, chain restaurant heaven, and Focus on the Family. Normal doesn't begin to describe how homogenous my hometown was.
Perfect girls
But as in any American town with picket fences this white, something dark lurked underneath. Like American Beauty's psychopathic real estate agent, the mothers I knew were often grinding their teeth and trying to outdo one another in landscaping and SUVs. The fathers -- mostly doctors and lawyers -- were socially accepted workaholics who attended big games and graduations still in their suits. The sons were out on the field 24/7, dreaming of Big Ten schools. And the girls ... were perfect.
Yet these perfect girls still feel we could always lose five more pounds. We get into good colleges but are angry if we don't get into every college we applied to. We are the captains of the basketball teams, the soccer stars, the swimming state champs with boxes full of blue ribbons. We win scholarships galore, science fairs and knowledge bowls, spelling bees and mock trial debates. We are the girls with anxiety disorders, filled appointment books, five-year plans.
We take ourselves very, very seriously. We are the peacemakers, the do-gooders, the givers, the savers. We are on time, overly prepared, well read and witty, intellectually curious, always moving.
We are living contradictions. We are socially conscious, multiculti, and anticorporate, but we still shop at Gap and Banana Republic. We listen to hip-hop, indie rock, and country on our iPods. We are the girls in hooker boots, wife beaters, and big earrings. We make documentary films, knit sweaters, and DJ. We are "social smokers," secretly happy that the cigarettes might speed up our metabolisms, hoping they won't kill us in the process.
We pride ourselves on getting as little sleep as possible and thrive on self-deprivation. We drink coffee, a lot of it. We are on birth control, Prozac and multivitamins. We do strip aerobics, hot yoga, go five more minutes than the limit on any exercise machine at the gym.
We are relentless, judgmental with ourselves, and forgiving to others. We never want to be as passive-aggressive as our mothers, never want to marry men as uninspired as our fathers. We carry the world of guilt -- center of families, keeper of relationships, caretaker of friends -- with a new world of control/ambition -- rich, independent, powerful. We are the daughters of feminists who said, "You can be anything" and we heard "You have to be everything."
We must get A's. We must make money. We must save the world. We must be thin. We must be unflappable. We must be beautiful. We are the anorectics, the bulimics, the overexercisers, the overeaters. We must be perfect. We must make it look effortless.
We grow hungrier and hungrier with no clue what we are hungry for. The holes inside of us grow bigger and bigger.
This quintessentially female brand of perfectionism goes on all over America, not just in suburban enclaves but in big cities, mountain towns, trailer parks. And perfect girls abound in Vancouver, Rio, Tokyo and Sydney. Their compulsion to achieve constantly, to perform endlessly, to demand absolute perfection in every aspect of life is part of a larger, undeniable trend in the women of my generation all over the world.
I satisfied my hunch that this was the case by consulting more than 25 experts in the fields of food, fitness, and psychology, interviewing twice as many girls and young women about their personal experiences (sometimes multiple times), and conducting focus groups with girls on the topic across the country. When I sent out an informal survey e-mail to all the women I knew and asked them to forward it to all the women they knew, I got more than 100 echoing responses in my in-box. Here are just a few:
I am DEFINITELY a perfectionist. To the extreme. Everything I do has to be perfect -- whether it be school, gymnastics, working out, etc. I do not allow myself to be the slightest bit lazy. I think if I heard someone call me lazy, I would cry! -- Kristine, Tucson, Ariz., 22
Perfectionists were rampant at my all-women's high school, as were eating disorders. I think I can remember two women in my class who really didn't have body issues, and I always admired them. I never had an eating disorder, but I definitely didn't get away without disordered ideas about food. -- Tara, Beirut, Lebanon, 27
I have always been and always will be a perfectionist in almost everything I do. It creates a struggle within me to truly define or determine when I will be good enough. -- Melissa, McKinney, Texas, 21
I do not consider myself a perfectionist, but others describe me that way. There is always room for self-improvement with my body, no matter how thin I am. -- Kelly, Denver, Colo., 28
People who know me call me an overachiever. I am hard on myself. My body fits into this mentality because I'm tall, long, lean, but that is the result of strict diet and lots of exercise. -- Kathleen, Jersey City, N.J., 28
I am quite a perfectionist. If I put on weight, I would be very upset. I would see it as a sign of failure on my part to control myself. -- Michelle, Dublin, Ireland, 24Our bodies, our needs, our cravings, our sadness, our weakness, our stillness inevitably become our own worst enemies. It is the starving daughter within who must be shut down, muted, ignored ... eventually killed off.
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 18, 2007 12:19 AM
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What we have right now is a sinister conspiracy perpetuated by the fast food industry to try and make being fat normal. They use the talk of civil rights and the whole victim mentality to claim obese lazy people are 'normal'.
Go take a trip to Europe and see all the beautiful and thin women who are racially the same as most Americans. It can be done.
The less time spent with this pathetic excuse for feminism that is all the 'beauty myth' Naomi Wolf's of the world, and instead accept that beauty is the natural state for most people when they are healthy and fit, then we will get somewhere.
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» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: jimidee
» As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: Peggy
» RE: As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: jwc
» RE: As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: babs
» RE: As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: Peggy
» RE: Lazy? Shucks, many young women are losing their abilty to walk! NM
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: BlooSox
» Like to respond to your excellent points
Posted by: Bobsays
» a switch went off?
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» what if
Posted by: Laplandi
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: divadiva
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: rklira
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: fakir005
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Posted by: chomsky on Apr 18, 2007 1:34 AM
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I personally don't buy into society's ideal image of female beautiful: tall, long hair, fair skin, perfect proportions, skinny, big breasts. I think of this image as the "Barbie doll" paradigm, and women who look like that turn me off. Not there there is anything inherently bad about looking this way, it's just that I've had that image ingrained in my mind so many times, it just doesn't seem natural or authentically human. I'm attracted women who have natural beauty, a healthy physique (not too skinny or too fat), unique qualities, and most of all, don't look like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, or any other Barbie doll look alike. I find subtle imperfections often add to one's personal beauty, that absolute normalcy looks unhealthy and inhuman.
Maybe I'm shallow and obsessed with the body in a different way, but I like to think I prefer a much healthier type of physical beauty. The monolithic beauty culture dominant now is just far too unhealthy, and I'm surprised many people still find it attractive. I'll take a natural girl with curves any day of the week, especially one who can speak a foreign language.
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» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» Here, here!
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Here, here!
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: Here, here!
Posted by: divadiva
» Agreed
Posted by: Krotos
» MOst men...
Posted by: vangogh69
» Maybe I'm shallow and obsessed with the body
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Lest we forget what it really is all about...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: divadiva
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Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Apr 18, 2007 2:08 AM
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 18, 2007 3:09 AM
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The pattern continues, and now you're whining about how your narcissism was imposed by something outside you, like society, the advertising industry, or whatever. It's still all about you. Good luck in therapy.
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» RE: Narcissism
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Hmm...
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Hmm...
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Hmm...
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Apr 18, 2007 3:36 AM
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Granted the specific focus on beauty in women is largely due to an attractiveness orientation in men (just as men are, in large part, obsessed with becoming powerful because women like powerful men), but seeing as there have been paeans to the beauty of women going back to the Iliad it makes more sense to smooth things out between the top and bottom than to try to change people's standards of attractiveness.
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» RE: extreme competitiveness of society
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» health and fertitlity??...
Posted by: Annapurna1
» Fertility is seen as detrimental
Posted by: Kelly
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Posted by: H_H on Apr 18, 2007 3:54 AM
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In that case, how competent can they be if they can't tell the difference between a magazine ad and real life?
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» RE: So let me get this straight...
Posted by: jwc
» OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: hellofriends
» We ain't nothing but mammals
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: H_H
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: H_H
» RE: some men are competent adults, but can't quit reading articles they abhor?
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 18, 2007 4:11 AM
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And, I'd hate to bring this up, but let's not forget the fact that an exorbitant amount of people don't have enough to eat. Frankly, I prefer focusing on them.
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» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: H_H
» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» You are the smartest person here
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: christininrome
» Obesity/eating disorders in wealthy countries and hunger in poor countries
Posted by: zyxwvut
» Capitalism is...
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: ann83
» poverty as a link to obesity
Posted by: divadiva
» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» I totally agree with you
Posted by: rclord
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Posted by: Catherine Martell on Apr 18, 2007 5:08 AM
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I agree that women are rewarded or denigrated for their looks far more than men are, and that as a consequence there is plenty of pressure to look "acceptable", as defined by your culture, and disproportionate rewards for those who look better than acceptable. But this article doesn't seem to touch on why this situation might exist, or why it affects women more than men. I don't buy the line that it's some sort of innate perfectionism - what causes that, then?
Really, this whole piece just seems like an excuse for the writer to talk about herself.
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» I blam men!
Posted by: jwc
» RE: I blam men!
Posted by: chomsky
» RE: I blam men!
Posted by: Badger1492
» RE: What about the obesity epidemic?
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» As far as the US goes
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: What about the obesity epidemic?
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: What about the obesity epidemic?
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: jwc on Apr 18, 2007 5:20 AM
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» Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: jwc
» RE: Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Hot bods
Posted by: Torgo
» and lets' not forget...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» It's all about moderation
Posted by: chomsky
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Posted by: artemisia on Apr 18, 2007 5:23 AM
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Sure there is a biological element to wanting attractiveness around you. But as high functioning creatures, our needs tend to extend beyond biology.
I suspect I won't get tons of sympathy (that's ok) But I find it interesting that no matter which point of the spectrum you're considered to fall on, as far as your looks go, this focus on surface appearances can wind up being emotionally damaging to young women.
I've been told many times that I'm beautiful. That's far from being a bad thing. I'm also smart and funny and a talented artist. I get a fair amount of "yeah, yeah, babe, that's nice, whatever." It takes a toll on a person's sense of self. You start wondering, does the rest of me matter? Does anyone notice or care who I am as a person? Does anyone see me as a person? What will happen when I lose my looks someday? Will I cease to matter? A close friend of mine who was overweight as a teenager, felt equally invisible, just in a different way.
We really lose out by not considering the whole person we're making judgements about.
My point is (to make a short story long) the mystique we've built over appearances and the damage it can cause to our intrapersonal relationships, extends far beyond an advertising campaign and needs to be addressed in a more wholistic manner. How we treat each other on a daily basis, even the subtle stuff matters. I suspect it happens to guys on all ends of the spectrum too, maybe it's more pronounced in women.
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» RE: The other side of the coin
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: The other side of the coin
Posted by: demidesigrrl
» RE: The other side of the coin
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: ...and so, you don't want anyone to tell you that you are beautiful anymore?
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: ktm on Apr 18, 2007 5:27 AM
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girls who like thier body often pretend not to in order to fit in with the 'in' model of self-deprecation. i have had so many conversations in which a girlfriend was bitching and bitching about her body and the expected me reply with a denial and then offer up some self-hatred of my own. but just sepaking from personal experience i have found it to be astromonically more likely for a girlfriend of mine to raise her eyebrows when i order a cheeseburger than my boyfriend is.. or in fact, any guy is.
women are enforcing this stereotype on themselves... and here is the thing, the majority eventually wisen up. like with peer pressure, as you get older it gets easier to deal with... and if a women isn't capable of dealing with this in a healthy way by the time she reachs her twenties she needs therapy.
this is a maturity issue, not a crisis.
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» RE: stereotype
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: stereotype
Posted by: ann83
» RE: stereotype
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» I am a woman and I've never hated my body
Posted by: rclord
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Posted by: drricklippin on Apr 18, 2007 5:29 AM
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One project was a set of sculptures that depicted nude women from ages 8 through 80 years of many diverse body shapes and sizes (often primarily genetically determined)-
each accompanied by a poem. One sculpture was that of a nude woman who had lost a breast to mastectomy.This set of sculptures and poems travelled around the nation to mostly medical facilities but other venues as well.
EACH SCULPTURE AND POEM WERE BEAUTIFUL
So the arts including plays, film, poems and music ,but especially the visual arts like scupture and painting, are excellent antidotes to the toxic mind poison stimuli that the U.S. mass media and mass advertising culture put forth to U.S women especially young females who are especially vulnerable to such stimuli.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
Http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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Posted by: radiohead on Apr 18, 2007 6:02 AM
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Articles like this focus on the distorted body image of middle to upper middle class white girls. What about the body image of women with physical deformities? I think we have more valid reason to have poor self esteem and body image issues but nobody pays attention to us. Perhaps because it is true we are/will be marginalized our entire lives from becoming successful people according to the present rules of the game which rewards the young, skinny, beautiful, and rich with degrees from prestigous universities? Lends credence to the fact that these beautiful skinny young things are valued more by society than the rest of us; they merit books written about them. The NYT just had an article on these perfect young women.
I left an Ivy League school last year because the entire school, and my program, was full of beautiful, young, skinny, hypercompetitive and successful young women. Glorious young thoroughbreds. When you don't fit that mold it hurts too damn much to be around these people. I didn't belong there. I'm too old, poor, working class, and have a noticeable spinal deformity. I felt like I was back in high school with the cliques, yet again. What self confidence I had was a sham and I felt one inch high. Now I'm in another school with older women with imperfect bodies and real lives.
There's a whole generation of us throwaway women out there, slightly older women who have deforming scoliosis and other physical issues, who were told we would never amount to much and nobody paid attention. What about us? Oh yeah, when these glorious young girls become older, they'll discover how throwaway they are, too.
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» I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: Ivan_K
» and who ends up suffering the most?
Posted by: rclord
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: cinattra
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: hale
» THANK YOU!
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: alfalfa friend
» "stay on topic"? er how stupid are you?
Posted by: insulaparadigm
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 18, 2007 6:28 AM
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» Where does all of this obsessing about "white women" come from...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Where does all of this obsessing about "white women" come from...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Where does all of this obsessing about "white women" come from...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: okcamp on Apr 18, 2007 6:37 AM
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do you think that women don't notice that? that unless they have a certain 'look' there will be doors that they will never be able to walk through.
and it isn't just young women. women with saggy eyelids or excess chin will be less likely to be promoted on the job or even hired. it's sad that women feel the need to undergo plastic surgery, but the reality is, in many cases it is necessary if they want to achieve their goals.
right or wrong.....beauty matters, and women know it.
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» RE: beauty matters
Posted by: jasonk
» RE: beauty matters
Posted by: divadiva
» I'm sorry you didn't get your star athlete, musician, VP of a Fortune 500 Company--NM
Posted by: jimidee
» Melinda Gates isn't that cute.
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 18, 2007 6:40 AM
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» RE: Why do we care about this when skeletal humans are starving in Darfur?
Posted by: vwaites
» Um, what is "thug culture?"
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: Um, what is "thug culture?"
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Darfur needs peace, not peacekeepers
Posted by: Torgo
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Posted by: vwaites on Apr 18, 2007 6:43 AM
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Not all girls with eating disorders have been abused, but a large fraction of us have. So, try to have a little sympathy. When I read some of the reactions, i felt ridiculed, looked down on. Nice, healthy outside enforcements for people who already hate themselves. You don't know who is reading your words. Please, for those of us out here fighting ourselves everyday to lead a true, food-filled, healthy life--choose them carefully.
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» We're not being mean, we're calling it as we see it, and your name-calling is dehumanizing. Stop it.
Posted by: Torgo
» nice one, hypocrite
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: nice one, hypocrite
Posted by: hellofriends
» Yes you are too being mean. . .
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Yes you are too being mean. . .
Posted by: insulaparadigm
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Apr 18, 2007 6:48 AM
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Schools are now publicly weighing kids and sending home their BMI's on their report cards. 14 year old girls, who look normal and healthy, are being told they're "obese" by their doctors. And we're constantly told that if we don't fit into this narrow range (I think the range for my height is 30 pounds), regardless of athletic ability and body composition, that we're going to die terrible deaths from our fat. It's ridiculous!
I personally eat pretty darn well and exercise regularly. I'm healthier and more active than I've ever been (including when I was 7). Yet, at 23, I'm also the heaviest I've ever been. According to these damn charts, I'm overweight and pushing into obese. I wear a size 10 and I feel and look great. But the doctors think I should cut back calories until I lose weight. Well, I only eat 1500 a day! What do they want, me to starve myself?
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» RE: BMI
Posted by: vwaites
» RE: BMI
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: BMI
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: BMI
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: BMI
Posted by: vwaites
» RE: BMI
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» what they measure...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: BMI
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: BMI
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
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Posted by: haystack1317 on Apr 18, 2007 7:27 AM
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Purely physical perfection is unattainable because it is artificial. I worked with an extremely famous actress on a film once. At one point, I saw her in front of me live, and simultaneously saw the monitor, which is what the camera was capturing. The experience taught me a lot. As I watched her in the same living space with me, she seemed like herself, another one of the people in the room, and a wonderful one, like everyone else. But what I saw on the monitor was a different story. The artificiality of the camera transformed her into an idyllic image that was truly startling in its power. But, it was ARTIFICIAL. I'm all for art, of course, but I really learned a lesson at this moment. Comparing real people to artifical means of reproducing their images can be a fatal error.
It will always be part of our evolutionary make-up to have a physical attraction to women who seem young and healthy. It will also always be part of our make-up to be attracted to women who are smart, strong, and compassionate. Have you ever seen a female model (since we're talking about women) who seemed very appealing and then heard her speak? The perspective changes completely. Personally, I've never heard a model speak who seemed anywhere near as attractive afterwards as she was beforehand. On the contrary, I've had thousands of experiences where women who don't look like magazine covers prove to be extremely attractive due to this reality: people are inseparable combinations of countless different qualities, and in the real world in which we're evolved to live, attractiveness is always based on the complete person.
One hundred years ago, before the proliferation of these images, do you think women were as focused on the physical exclusively? Twenty-thousand years ago, when we were still living mostly in the types of environments for which we evolved, do you think anyone other than the most completely balanced woman could ever be the most attractive partner?
I say, look for and resist the tendency for the corporate world to manipulate your evolutionary traits at all cost. Don't let them turn your natural taste for fruit into an addiction to Coca-Cola and eventually diabetes. Don't let them turn only one side of your sense of who people are, the surface, which is the only one they can control, into an even worse disease.
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» Well said! I couldn't agree more. nm
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: Well said! I couldn't agree more. nm
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Look to the ancestral environment! That's the key
Posted by: chomsky
» RE: Look to the ancestral environment! That's the key
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Look to the ancestral environment! That's the key
Posted by: haystack1317
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 18, 2007 7:33 AM
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But, I just think that books such as this reproduce the argument that every girl has an eating disorder. And these girls make one of my friends, who suffers from poly cystic ovarian syndrome and has been struggling with her weight for years simply mad! It is her, actually, who have made me angry with the "every girl hates her body" syndrome that women's self help books and magazines seem to constantly reproduce.
And heartless? I'm currently getting a master's in social work planning on pursuing a career in community organizing for the human rights of sex workers and the transgendered community. Please, attack my argument, and not me personally.
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Posted by: vwaites on Apr 18, 2007 8:10 AM
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My 'picked on comment' was more toward the the other commenter who specified 'cheerleader', and i didn't seperate that. (though implying that my saying so was less than inteligent--well, it could be seen as insulting. However, I'm just going to chalk that up to the nature of blogging).
I was hurt and angry, and i apologize for calling you heartless--as i don't know you personally or what you do, only by these comments.
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» RE: Heartless?
Posted by: ann83
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 18, 2007 7:41 AM
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And I didn't mean to post it twice! Slow computers are a nuisance at times...
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 18, 2007 8:09 AM
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» Not entirely true
Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Not entirely true
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: WHAT ELSE IS NEW ?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: WHAT ELSE IS NEW ?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 18, 2007 8:27 AM
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» The Lover Government
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The Lover Government
Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
» RE: Frightening
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Apr 18, 2007 9:25 AM
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» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: ann83
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: greenkris on Apr 18, 2007 9:30 AM
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i think what the article is missing, however, is any commentary on why thinking/obsessing about food, weight, and looks in general has developed into the norm for young women. i think this missing piece is what has led to many of the rather ignorant comments that have been posted such as those that imply the author is a perfectionist who was never fully satisfied or the one stating that women are incompetent if they can't tell the difference between a magazine ad and real life. i would have appreciated more input from the author in this piece.. how does the media create and reinforce these notions of perfection? i think with a bit more development in regard to the WHY of this distressing reality, some of the ignorant assumptions and subsequent unproductive comments could be minimized (acknowledging the author's work in creating her book- extensive consultations with women and professionals - would also help).
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» RE: Eating disorders are a symptom of the problem, and not the problem itself...NM
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: ating disorders are a symptom of the problem, and not the problem itself...NM
Posted by: greenkris
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Posted by: kevred on Apr 18, 2007 9:41 AM
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It affects everyone in some way. Height, leanness, musculature, facial structure, presence or lack of hair on head or body are all widely judged in men, especially in competitive environments. Skin color is, of course, judged all over the place, between and within races. Studies have shown an incredible number of biases and prejudices in the workplace over all manner of physical traits, with the steretypical Ken & Barbie still currying the most favor--at least forgiveness and softer judgment, if not outright preference in every case--in just about every area.
There are important specifics to every angle of the beauty obsession--young women's body images, obesity, resistance to and devaluing of aging (in women earlier than in men, but in both at some point), men feeling pushed into playing the he-man role, one ethnic group feeling pressure to adopt another ethnic group's beauty standards, etc--the list goes on and on.
But the roots to all these issues seem as strong and connected as ever. We as a society hunger for beauty, deperately so, and we hurt and slight and crush and kill for the sake of it.
And the media only seems to find new and stronger ways to fuel it. One example of that is, simply, the average level of attractivess of who we see on TV. Take a look at any number of common TV shows, game shows, news broadcasts, musical-performance shows, etc from 20 years ago, then 30 or 40 years ago. Of course, there have always been beautiful people in the spotlight. But the average show in those earlier decades was full of faces with character--expressive, distinct, a wide palette of appearance (if not always race). Compare to today, where almost every show seems full of wooden young models who have no personality, no ability to emote or create anything of depth, and who are blandly indistinct from one another. Even as racial diversity is on the rise, those chosen all fit a narrowing profile of beauty. Can you imagine Walter Cronkite as lead news anchor today?
In that nutshell alone, we see a fevered race to devalue everything else but one trait--a carefully-sculpted, precise standard of beauty that becomes more important than anything else. That's the message our youth are getting hit with, day in and day out, as their potential role models outside those standards dwindle.
What can be done about this?
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Posted by: harpy on Apr 18, 2007 10:01 AM
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» RE: A fat body is...
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Kym525 on Apr 18, 2007 10:17 AM
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John Stossel (not one of my favourite people to be sure) did a program that aired ABC a year or so ago that dealt with women and body image. He interviewed young women from ALL races and classes and found that the young black women generally felt good about their bodies. The young white and asian women (most of whom were already thin or fit) thought themselves "big".
Don Imus' idiotic comment should have been a part of this discussion. Black women may not suffer from body image issues, but our hair has always been a political mindfield (remember Cynthia McKinney)? It has only been recently that many companies "allow" black women to wear their hair braided or locked, preferring them to use damaging chemicals to "straighten" their hair and therefore present a more 'professional' image. Imus' comment about nappy hair brought that back to the surface, and showed that in spite of all the white guys with dredlocks, society at large still doesn't see natural hair and hairstyles as beautiful (unless Bo Derek does it).
One size does NOT fit all, people. Progressives should know and be practicing this rather than always catering to it.
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» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: fork
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: Peregrine
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Posted by: jimidee on Apr 18, 2007 10:24 AM
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I do my part to share the chores and maintenance on our 42 acre farm, as I am retired already. I am on the same regimen as she is, and I am 56 years old, 5'11" and weigh 215 lbs., with 16% body fat...and I feel great. We still have sex several times a week and love to mountain bike, back pack, take multiday motorcycle trips, and everything we did when we were kids. If you are in shape, and not just thin or skinny, there are few limitations.
This stuff isn't rocket science, so why do so many (including the author of this AN piece) try to make it so complicated? One simply has to get away from their bad eating habits and sedentary lifestyles, and the rest takes care of itself. It is the fountain of youth! The bonus is that by living in this manner, we reduce stress the old fashioned way...we BURN it.
It is worth it.
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» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: fork
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: fork
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: Einherjar
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: fork
» Please Grow Up
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Gimmee a break...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Please Grow Up
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: docholliday on Apr 18, 2007 11:32 AM
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» RE: Who Cares
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Sushi on Apr 18, 2007 11:42 AM
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I have been shouted to by grocery store cashiers, "Oh my gawd...look how skinny you are!" I have had "friends" say, " I hate you!" as if I was flaunting myself as a contrast to their rather normal, somewhat more feminine builds. Women want to know "my secret." I have been accused (loudly) of being anorexic even though I struggled for years to gain weight in hopes of gaining a few feminine curves. I look back on photos now and see that while I was thin, I was not bony. The meat on my bones was muscle and I had the look of a tomboy. I was normal for ME.
How many guys, when a women is mentioned, ask first-thing, "What does she LOOK like?" Women are conditioned to believe that their looks are judged a priority. Beautiful women get the attention, the "great personality/good person" infers "she's a dog." What are women supposed to think is valued higher in our society?
A few posts back, someone mentioned how even physically gorgeous women will find fault with some perceived flaw as an expected comeback to any flattering comment. I think this is true. If someone responded, "Yeah, ain't I great just as I am?" they would probably be thrown out of the "Generally Dissatisfied" club for women.
The market thrives on perfection being just out of reach. If only we could buy the newest eye shadow, the latest apricot/mango creme, the most exclusive pampering luxury goop for our hair, we'd be that more desireable and respected by everyone.
((choke))
We've got to stop comparing ourselves to an unattainable standard and just be the best US we can with what we have to work with.
Sushi
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» RE: Body image from the other side
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
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Posted by: Gravitas on Apr 18, 2007 12:32 PM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Apr 18, 2007 1:05 PM
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Imagine 1000 years from now that scientists revive someone from our time. How will he explain to their historians and sociologists how we could let this happen?
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Posted by: cognitorex on Apr 18, 2007 1:09 PM
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But, when I scan the hallelujahs for perfect abs, perfect thighs, and diet claims that girls and women are subject to along with the perfectly thin barely clad idealized females fronting the magazines I feel a social crime is being committed.
Why should all the weight conscious women of America, particularly those who have a diet related disease have to run this gauntlet?
--Craig Johnson--
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» RE: Because it SELLS! -- nm
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Gravitas on Apr 18, 2007 2:55 PM
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» Meant as a response to Jimidee
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Only Frustrated With Stupidity
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Badger1492 on Apr 18, 2007 3:29 PM
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Also: it could have used some editing and/or spell-checking. And can someone tell me what "Candace Bushnell writing her way into found-hundred-dollar Manolo Blahniks." means? I don't know who Candance Bushnell is or who or what a "Manolo Blahniks" is. Guess I don't watch enough TV.
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» RE: editing?
Posted by: ezilla
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Posted by: eyesunderwater on Apr 18, 2007 5:14 PM
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Posted by: lotus23 on Apr 18, 2007 7:48 PM
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And of course, if you want to find love, just go on Craigslist personals and see how many of ads have beauty requirements like "no fatties!"
While it's true that different ethnicities have different standards of beauty and different body types, there is still a pervasive push to look like Paris Hilton. There is a hegemony.
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Posted by: 50566 on Apr 18, 2007 7:52 PM
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Now, the health angle, type 2 diabeties is becoming epidemic as a result of the computer and convenience. I myself was able to maintain a modest level of fitness as long as I staved off buying a home computer. I was only sitting then for 40 hours a week. Now, the only exercise I get is cleaning the house and doing laundry. The only food I eat is whatever i can stick in the oven or microwave. I'm too busy reading blogs and articles and comments and making my responses....
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 18, 2007 8:18 PM
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Odds are, female judges will pick women that appear the most glamorous without regard to physical fitness which can only be determined with a medical exam.
Moreover, I suspect, ladies picked by women will be skinny, whereas men would favor heavy gals, assuming they have curves and, of course, big tits.
Here's my point. Women who care more about health than appearance will, in the end, attract men more easily -- especially if they are smart and have a good sense of humor. And, of course, have big tits.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» RE: The health nut versus glamor queen test.
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: craftne on Apr 18, 2007 9:11 PM
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I don't know if that's true, but it belies a larger issue. And men have it too, just in different areas. Instead of weight, with men its being better, smarter, faster, tougher, having the best toys, the best girlfriend, yada, yada. Trust me. Have faith I will do a good job.
Okay, oversimplification. But you get my drift. What this is about is insecurity. It is about happiness found from the outside. I have to act, be, do this this way to get what I want and need. And women (me included) believe that weight and (gasp!) age will get them nowhere. The where they want to be? Admired, loved and accepted.
I am 51 years old. I have conditions that make it almost impossible to lose weight. I walk 6 miles a day, sometimes 4 days a week (I've cut down). I do yoga, and I take supplements. I eat healthy for me. I did obsess with my weight. I don't like my weight. But the problem isn't the weight. It's with believing I'm not acceptable with the weight.
That's the problem with everyone. That little niggly insecure feeling that says I am bad - I am not acceptable to other people if I am [_____]. Because that final prize will make us happy.
"I will be happy if I am loved, if I have a man, if I have a great job, if everyone is nice to me. And I can't get that without being perfect."
That's just nuts. Should you let that determine how happy you are? Okay, if you never have a boyfriend, you never have a great job, and if people aren't nice to you, that's going to put you over the edge, isn't it? Why not instead get to the root of the problem? Which is....wait for it....learning how to be happy and secure in yourself no matter what happens? If I have done anything, I hope that my sons will understand this one basic principle before I cross over.
Mind you, the opposite sex for the most part on both sides perpetuates this happiness from outside business. I've been on singles dating sites. Not the one here. You'd be surprised at the amount of men who's "my partner must be" list does not include someone more than average weight and, for the most part 5 to 10 years younger. Women want men who are taller and make money, is that fair to say? (because I don't look much at women's profiles)
There is a huge weight problem, yes. There is a fast food problem yes. I've been talking about the horrible ingredients in food to anyone that will listen. Fast food isn't only in restaurants, darling. Fast food is all over the supermarket. Try buying artificial ingredient free, sugar-free foods for kids.
And the more low fat the food is, the more they've replaced it with sugar and high fructose corn syrup. Sugar and refined flour are worse for you than fat. There are mucho beneficial nutrients in milk fat, and the fat in milk is so neglible. But we go after the 2% and skim with added lactose that will eventually lead to diabetes. Virtually every yogurt on the market uses sugar, fruit sugar or sugar substitutes. None are sweetened with honey and only plain has none at all.
But I digress.
You keep chasing after the carrot, and the carrot will make you suffer.
Bugger it. I'm a wonderful, smart, artistic and talented female, and if there are people who consider that I'm not lovable because I am not a size 10, oops 12, ooops 14, oopps 16, it's their problem. I'm okay. I'm fine.
You reap what you sow. If you are shallow and chase the carrot....if you are happy and secure inside. I'd rather be happy, regardless of what I have or what I get or who I know.
Ta.
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Posted by: tbitom52 on Apr 18, 2007 9:21 PM
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All women are foolish. But there is
nothing wrong with that as it is a natural part of a
woman's cyclical system. However,I know what they dont. Moreover,it is my intention to totally destroy feminism and all the nonsense related thereto. To see
my AUTHORITY for doing so,read below -and weep.
By THOMAS J.P.COURTNEY,ESQ.,Lt.Col,U.S.Army,Defense
Intelligence Agency
> a Traumatic Brain Injury(TBI) Survivor,
> jewsyonkersislam #372,as posted in Wickipedia,
7) Disabilities resulting from TBI
>A brief overlook at what it means to live as a
> Traumatic Brain Injury(TBI) Survivor.
Considering that Bob Woodruff (TV news reporter)
> just did a story on his "recovery" from TBI from an
> injury in Iraq,many veterans from the fighting in Iraq
are TBI survivors and the NYTimes (p.1,3-14-07) just
> did a story on retired NFL players who experienced
> Brain Injury,I will briefly recount a few things I've
learned about being a TBI survivor. As I had my TBI
> when I was 13 and am now 58,I've had a long time to
> try and figure out what I have become. All TBI
> survivors are the "same" yet no two are alike.
> When I "came back","recovered",after being hit by a
> car,fracturing my neck,lying in a coma for 40
> days,awakening to find I was completely paralysed and
> "walking" out of a hospital on a pair of "half"
> crutches after six months of intensive physical
> therapy,I found that I was not alone -and that I had
> many,continuing and ever- new "disabilities". And I'll
> note three: an inability to communicate with others
in a "normal" way,Hyper- sexuality and persistent
> "shivers" that constantly inhibit communication with
> others because they scramble/shock my brain (as to
> these,I believe they are variations/manifestations of
> a form of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy[TLE]).
>Indeed, I was just reading about TBI and things
that I "do"/have always "done" -such as staring at a
> candle,staring out a window...as I experience a
> delicious shudder/shiver- are not unknown. It seems that these moments are somewhat epileptic (many
famous authors (Doestoevsky...) and leaders( Michael
Collins, leader of 1917 Irish independence movement [manic
> depression or TLE ?]...) have also been somewhat
> epileptic: temporal lobe epilepsy[TLE]).
> When I "came back",I learned that I was no longer
> just myself but "myself" floating in a void (an
> 'eternal' present/eternity)within myself. And this
> "void" always sees and does things that I can not help
> but see and do - as I am a mere part(a raft) of (on)
> that "void" (eternity) over which I have no say.
> As to my hypersexuality,it does not bother me so much
> as I am 58. But for nearly 40 years,at least once a
> day and often 2 or 3 times,it left me with overwhelming feelings of guilt,shame,embarrassment.. And yet,on the other hand,you would not believe how many lovely{naked} young and beautiful ladies' bodies I have seen,touched, stroked,kissed,fondled ... or the fact that I have had sexual intercourse with a lady about 15,000-30,000 or more times.
> Moreover,I kid you not -and I kid you not that this is
> a merciless and demanding disability that leaves you
with little chance to do much more....and I struggle daily.
Normal people (non-TBI survivors) like to talk and share experiences,one-to-one. But,as a TBI survivor,
> such is not possible for me because ......
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Posted by: JustaNumber on Apr 18, 2007 9:24 PM
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Like my mother used to say--"There are children starving in Africa." But you know what, Mom? There are people starving right here at home, too. Not just children, but men and women, too. And they're not starving because they want to look fashionable. They're starving because they can't afford enough to feed themselves. How's that for an eating disorder?
We'd do well to worry more about all the people who are starving because they have no choice--and screw the people who have too many choices. To them I say, quit feeling sorry for yourselves and take a moment to be thankful for what you're fortunate enough to have. Take some of that food you're thinking about puking up, quit mindlessly stuffing your face just because you can, and think about somebody less fortunate than yourself for a change. That'll cure your damn eating disorders.
How about let's stamp out hunger instead of worrying so much about our eating disorders, for cripe's sake?
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» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: yesman
» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: JustaNumber
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Posted by: yesman on Apr 18, 2007 9:42 PM
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Indeed. And, of course, "wanting" has two meanings: 1) lacking in "perfection"--because perfection is by definition an unattainable goal in an imperfect world; and 2) desiring--that is, wanting to buy another gym membership or piece of exercise equipment or diet pill or diet book, etc., etc., in the hope that the next thing you try will be the magic one to deliver you into "perfection."
The multi-billion-dollar diet and "fitness" industries are all too happy to keep all of us chasing after an unattainable goal by purchasing their products and services. The inexplicable part is--so many of us buy into their trap and willingly enslave ourselves to these capitalist masters.
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Posted by: timebomb734 on Apr 18, 2007 9:45 PM
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Imperfect men (and often unattractive, overweight men) continue to be cast as actors on television shows and movies, become music stars, and achieve other standings of high regard in the entertainment media. Women who are ugly or have unconventionally healthy bodies are only cast as the fat or ugly character. Media execs even cast a pretty, healthy woman to play "Ugly Betty." Young girls are highly impressionable, and this kind of thinking has invaded our psyches. Putting down the women's magazine is not enough, because self-loathing has invaded the culture at large. Women and men devalue women who are not considered thin or beautiful.
When Don Imus made his infamous comment, I went online and sought out the entire transcript. What is most disturbing about the conversation on his show was not the "nappy-headed hos" comment, but was rather the angle from which he discussed the women of both teams. Rather than respecting the women as PEOPLE, he discussed the merits of their looks, with one team as "cute" and the other as "hos". What is ridiculous about the whole situation is not his foul language, but the entire view of women, no matter how accomplished, as being their bodies, and their bodies alone. This is not limited to Don Imus either. People (men and women) constantly reduce women to their looks without regard to the human being behind the face, tits, and ass.
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» RE: Body image...reminds me of
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Body image, women, and Don Imus
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: TerryS on Apr 18, 2007 11:16 PM
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four hours watching TV per day. Do you think
this could somehow be effecting how we view
ourselves and each other?
TV wasn't introduced into Fiji until the
1990's. Here is a study looking at how
TV effected body image in Fiji:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst
/fullpage.html?sec=health&res
=9A03E4DC1E3EF933A15756C0A96F958260
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/news
/0,2107,50700-81467-578111-0,00.html
TV's Glamorous lifestyles have an effect:
http://healthinfo.cedars-sinai.edu/healthyliving
/familyhome/may06soaps.htm
Media effecting men too:
http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels
/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=11103
For more on how TV is making us dissatisfied:
http://www.tvsmarter.com/documents/depression.html
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» RE: Perfectionism, Self-Loathing, and Television
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: suki on Apr 19, 2007 12:44 AM
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» RE: What about the men?
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 19, 2007 7:06 AM
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GET OVER IT.
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» RE: This life is not about YOU (or me)
Posted by: hellofriends
» fair enough
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: This life is not about YOU (or me)
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: rklira on Apr 19, 2007 10:57 AM
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 19, 2007 12:14 PM
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Just thought I would point that out.
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Posted by: dayahka on Apr 19, 2007 4:01 PM
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» RE: We need more such women (and men)
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Eat Politicians on Apr 19, 2007 7:35 PM
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Twiggy started the whole stick girl thing...I think it is pushed on most men by society. A lot of guys (and girls for that matter) prefer curvy women.
So jump in your time machine and assassinate twiggy and you can get this whole sick skinny trend out of popular culture.
Oh, and the huge pecks, shaved chests thing can go away as well....
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Posted by: idealista on Apr 20, 2007 11:31 AM
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We as privileged people (I'm assuming that if you're reading this, you're probably in this category) have a role and responsibility in dealing with global problems like poverty. But we can't be effective change agents if we're obsessed with how we look and being perfect. Being obsessed with appearing perfect isn't about doing anything meaningful - it's about looking like you're doing something meaningful. And if we're talking about whole generations of young women who care more about looking good than actually making change, then I think this is a problem worth discussing.
Another negative consequence of this obsession is that we view our role as the ones in charge or the leaders of change (which is exactly what the role of privileged folks shouldn't be if we're talking serious long-term social justice). I'm so tired of us thinking that we're the ones who are fine/normal/perfect and that we should be spending our time "helping those poor people in Africa." We need to acknowledge that we don't know more than them, we're not better than them, and we have our own pathologies and problems that we need to deal with. Not talking about our obsession with appearance and perfection just fuels the attitude that we are naturally "perfect". But maybe if we start talking about it, we can all ease up a bit, take a step back, and stop being so obsessed with ourselves.
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Posted by: talkville on Apr 22, 2007 4:59 AM
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Posted by: Elfcat1 on Apr 22, 2007 2:13 PM
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All this, meanwhile, at an age when the anti-fat brainwash we all get - and particularly in Los Angeles County where I grew up - in my case came slamming headlong into what I actually started feeling when my turn-ons, well, turned on. I've had it hard (literally) for the fat girls ever since. And even before that, in retrospect, I used to laugh at some of the fat jokes, but the idea that fat people were ugly or that there was some overriding imperative to turn them thin never really took hold in me. I remember going to the beach in LA, and having a warm feeling in my heart when, once in a while, a girl who was other than slender would take to the sand, by all indications a near-insurgent act in that place and time.
Also, because I'm a natural skinny, who is not this way out of adherence to some Spartan near-fascist turning inward of dire militarism (the "lean mean slaughter machine" and all that), I tend not to feel much in common with those who say "I go through all this to be fit, why should I bother with someone who can't keep up?" And all this metering of time and distance, this "speed freak" mentality. Oh, big news flash, fat people don't move as fast as thin people! Big fricking deal. You do remember work is force times distance don't you? If a 400 person goes half the distance a 100 pound person does, the former still got twice as much of a workout as the latter. So much for the whole laziness idea.
But then, though I am naturally thin, I'm also privy to the question of the body image of those with malformations, though if I didn't tell you the only clues you'd have are the slash scars on my ankles. I am a corrected clubfoot, and so don't run at the speed everyone expects of someone my size. I had to struggle to get to the middle of the pack in school laps. So when fat people talk of how much they despised PE, I could understand quite well.
I hear that if we don't watch out, nearly 100% of the American population will be "obese". I still haven't heard how this can happen if fatness is the inferior trait as is so often imputed. Yes, I can see it now, the dwindling number of skinnies heading for extinction while screaming ever louder of how morbid the fatties are who are wiping them out!
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» RE: A Foot In Both Camps
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 18, 2007 12:19 AM
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What we have right now is a sinister conspiracy perpetuated by the fast food industry to try and make being fat normal. They use the talk of civil rights and the whole victim mentality to claim obese lazy people are 'normal'.
Go take a trip to Europe and see all the beautiful and thin women who are racially the same as most Americans. It can be done.
The less time spent with this pathetic excuse for feminism that is all the 'beauty myth' Naomi Wolf's of the world, and instead accept that beauty is the natural state for most people when they are healthy and fit, then we will get somewhere.
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» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: jimidee
» As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: Peggy
» RE: As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: jwc
» RE: As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: babs
» RE: As someone from the US living in Germany
Posted by: Peggy
» RE: Lazy? Shucks, many young women are losing their abilty to walk! NM
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: BlooSox
» Like to respond to your excellent points
Posted by: Bobsays
» a switch went off?
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» what if
Posted by: Laplandi
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: divadiva
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: rklira
» RE: Not enough women are pursuing natural beauty and health
Posted by: fakir005
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Posted by: chomsky on Apr 18, 2007 1:34 AM
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I personally don't buy into society's ideal image of female beautiful: tall, long hair, fair skin, perfect proportions, skinny, big breasts. I think of this image as the "Barbie doll" paradigm, and women who look like that turn me off. Not there there is anything inherently bad about looking this way, it's just that I've had that image ingrained in my mind so many times, it just doesn't seem natural or authentically human. I'm attracted women who have natural beauty, a healthy physique (not too skinny or too fat), unique qualities, and most of all, don't look like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, or any other Barbie doll look alike. I find subtle imperfections often add to one's personal beauty, that absolute normalcy looks unhealthy and inhuman.
Maybe I'm shallow and obsessed with the body in a different way, but I like to think I prefer a much healthier type of physical beauty. The monolithic beauty culture dominant now is just far too unhealthy, and I'm surprised many people still find it attractive. I'll take a natural girl with curves any day of the week, especially one who can speak a foreign language.
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» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» Here, here!
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Here, here!
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: Here, here!
Posted by: divadiva
» Agreed
Posted by: Krotos
» MOst men...
Posted by: vangogh69
» Maybe I'm shallow and obsessed with the body
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Lest we forget what it really is all about...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: One guy's prospective
Posted by: divadiva
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Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Apr 18, 2007 2:08 AM
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 18, 2007 3:09 AM
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The pattern continues, and now you're whining about how your narcissism was imposed by something outside you, like society, the advertising industry, or whatever. It's still all about you. Good luck in therapy.
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» RE: Narcissism
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Hmm...
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Hmm...
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Hmm...
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: medstudgeek on Apr 18, 2007 3:36 AM
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Granted the specific focus on beauty in women is largely due to an attractiveness orientation in men (just as men are, in large part, obsessed with becoming powerful because women like powerful men), but seeing as there have been paeans to the beauty of women going back to the Iliad it makes more sense to smooth things out between the top and bottom than to try to change people's standards of attractiveness.
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» RE: extreme competitiveness of society
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» health and fertitlity??...
Posted by: Annapurna1
» Fertility is seen as detrimental
Posted by: Kelly
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Posted by: H_H on Apr 18, 2007 3:54 AM
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In that case, how competent can they be if they can't tell the difference between a magazine ad and real life?
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» RE: So let me get this straight...
Posted by: jwc
» OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: hellofriends
» We ain't nothing but mammals
Posted by: medstudgeek
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: H_H
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: wheresarah
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: OK assholes, a question I pose for YOU:
Posted by: H_H
» RE: some men are competent adults, but can't quit reading articles they abhor?
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 18, 2007 4:11 AM
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And, I'd hate to bring this up, but let's not forget the fact that an exorbitant amount of people don't have enough to eat. Frankly, I prefer focusing on them.
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» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: H_H
» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» You are the smartest person here
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: christininrome
» Obesity/eating disorders in wealthy countries and hunger in poor countries
Posted by: zyxwvut
» Capitalism is...
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Capitalism is...
Posted by: ann83
» poverty as a link to obesity
Posted by: divadiva
» RE: I don't know if I can deal with this anymore...
Posted by: DeeOhGee
» I totally agree with you
Posted by: rclord
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Posted by: Catherine Martell on Apr 18, 2007 5:08 AM
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I agree that women are rewarded or denigrated for their looks far more than men are, and that as a consequence there is plenty of pressure to look "acceptable", as defined by your culture, and disproportionate rewards for those who look better than acceptable. But this article doesn't seem to touch on why this situation might exist, or why it affects women more than men. I don't buy the line that it's some sort of innate perfectionism - what causes that, then?
Really, this whole piece just seems like an excuse for the writer to talk about herself.
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» I blam men!
Posted by: jwc
» RE: I blam men!
Posted by: chomsky
» RE: I blam men!
Posted by: Badger1492
» RE: What about the obesity epidemic?
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» As far as the US goes
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: What about the obesity epidemic?
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: What about the obesity epidemic?
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: jwc on Apr 18, 2007 5:20 AM
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» Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: jwc
» RE: Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Shhhh, a secret ...
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» Hot bods
Posted by: Torgo
» and lets' not forget...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» It's all about moderation
Posted by: chomsky
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Posted by: artemisia on Apr 18, 2007 5:23 AM
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Sure there is a biological element to wanting attractiveness around you. But as high functioning creatures, our needs tend to extend beyond biology.
I suspect I won't get tons of sympathy (that's ok) But I find it interesting that no matter which point of the spectrum you're considered to fall on, as far as your looks go, this focus on surface appearances can wind up being emotionally damaging to young women.
I've been told many times that I'm beautiful. That's far from being a bad thing. I'm also smart and funny and a talented artist. I get a fair amount of "yeah, yeah, babe, that's nice, whatever." It takes a toll on a person's sense of self. You start wondering, does the rest of me matter? Does anyone notice or care who I am as a person? Does anyone see me as a person? What will happen when I lose my looks someday? Will I cease to matter? A close friend of mine who was overweight as a teenager, felt equally invisible, just in a different way.
We really lose out by not considering the whole person we're making judgements about.
My point is (to make a short story long) the mystique we've built over appearances and the damage it can cause to our intrapersonal relationships, extends far beyond an advertising campaign and needs to be addressed in a more wholistic manner. How we treat each other on a daily basis, even the subtle stuff matters. I suspect it happens to guys on all ends of the spectrum too, maybe it's more pronounced in women.
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» RE: The other side of the coin
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: The other side of the coin
Posted by: demidesigrrl
» RE: The other side of the coin
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: ...and so, you don't want anyone to tell you that you are beautiful anymore?
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: ktm on Apr 18, 2007 5:27 AM
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girls who like thier body often pretend not to in order to fit in with the 'in' model of self-deprecation. i have had so many conversations in which a girlfriend was bitching and bitching about her body and the expected me reply with a denial and then offer up some self-hatred of my own. but just sepaking from personal experience i have found it to be astromonically more likely for a girlfriend of mine to raise her eyebrows when i order a cheeseburger than my boyfriend is.. or in fact, any guy is.
women are enforcing this stereotype on themselves... and here is the thing, the majority eventually wisen up. like with peer pressure, as you get older it gets easier to deal with... and if a women isn't capable of dealing with this in a healthy way by the time she reachs her twenties she needs therapy.
this is a maturity issue, not a crisis.
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» RE: stereotype
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: stereotype
Posted by: ann83
» RE: stereotype
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» I am a woman and I've never hated my body
Posted by: rclord
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Posted by: drricklippin on Apr 18, 2007 5:29 AM
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One project was a set of sculptures that depicted nude women from ages 8 through 80 years of many diverse body shapes and sizes (often primarily genetically determined)-
each accompanied by a poem. One sculpture was that of a nude woman who had lost a breast to mastectomy.This set of sculptures and poems travelled around the nation to mostly medical facilities but other venues as well.
EACH SCULPTURE AND POEM WERE BEAUTIFUL
So the arts including plays, film, poems and music ,but especially the visual arts like scupture and painting, are excellent antidotes to the toxic mind poison stimuli that the U.S. mass media and mass advertising culture put forth to U.S women especially young females who are especially vulnerable to such stimuli.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
Http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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Posted by: radiohead on Apr 18, 2007 6:02 AM
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Articles like this focus on the distorted body image of middle to upper middle class white girls. What about the body image of women with physical deformities? I think we have more valid reason to have poor self esteem and body image issues but nobody pays attention to us. Perhaps because it is true we are/will be marginalized our entire lives from becoming successful people according to the present rules of the game which rewards the young, skinny, beautiful, and rich with degrees from prestigous universities? Lends credence to the fact that these beautiful skinny young things are valued more by society than the rest of us; they merit books written about them. The NYT just had an article on these perfect young women.
I left an Ivy League school last year because the entire school, and my program, was full of beautiful, young, skinny, hypercompetitive and successful young women. Glorious young thoroughbreds. When you don't fit that mold it hurts too damn much to be around these people. I didn't belong there. I'm too old, poor, working class, and have a noticeable spinal deformity. I felt like I was back in high school with the cliques, yet again. What self confidence I had was a sham and I felt one inch high. Now I'm in another school with older women with imperfect bodies and real lives.
There's a whole generation of us throwaway women out there, slightly older women who have deforming scoliosis and other physical issues, who were told we would never amount to much and nobody paid attention. What about us? Oh yeah, when these glorious young girls become older, they'll discover how throwaway they are, too.
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» I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: I agree it is sad and anti-human
Posted by: Ivan_K
» and who ends up suffering the most?
Posted by: rclord
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: cinattra
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: hale
» THANK YOU!
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: This wasn't about body image of those with deformities...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: What about the body image of those with deformities?
Posted by: alfalfa friend
» "stay on topic"? er how stupid are you?
Posted by: insulaparadigm
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Posted by: xenacat on Apr 18, 2007 6:28 AM
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» Where does all of this obsessing about "white women" come from...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Where does all of this obsessing about "white women" come from...
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: Where does all of this obsessing about "white women" come from...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: okcamp on Apr 18, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
do you think that women don't notice that? that unless they have a certain 'look' there will be doors that they will never be able to walk through.
and it isn't just young women. women with saggy eyelids or excess chin will be less likely to be promoted on the job or even hired. it's sad that women feel the need to undergo plastic surgery, but the reality is, in many cases it is necessary if they want to achieve their goals.
right or wrong.....beauty matters, and women know it.
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» RE: beauty matters
Posted by: jasonk
» RE: beauty matters
Posted by: divadiva
» I'm sorry you didn't get your star athlete, musician, VP of a Fortune 500 Company--NM
Posted by: jimidee
» Melinda Gates isn't that cute.
Posted by: medstudgeek
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 18, 2007 6:40 AM
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» RE: Why do we care about this when skeletal humans are starving in Darfur?
Posted by: vwaites
» Um, what is "thug culture?"
Posted by: vangogh69
» RE: Um, what is "thug culture?"
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Darfur needs peace, not peacekeepers
Posted by: Torgo
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Posted by: vwaites on Apr 18, 2007 6:43 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not all girls with eating disorders have been abused, but a large fraction of us have. So, try to have a little sympathy. When I read some of the reactions, i felt ridiculed, looked down on. Nice, healthy outside enforcements for people who already hate themselves. You don't know who is reading your words. Please, for those of us out here fighting ourselves everyday to lead a true, food-filled, healthy life--choose them carefully.
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» We're not being mean, we're calling it as we see it, and your name-calling is dehumanizing. Stop it.
Posted by: Torgo
» nice one, hypocrite
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: nice one, hypocrite
Posted by: hellofriends
» Yes you are too being mean. . .
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Yes you are too being mean. . .
Posted by: insulaparadigm
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Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Apr 18, 2007 6:48 AM
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Schools are now publicly weighing kids and sending home their BMI's on their report cards. 14 year old girls, who look normal and healthy, are being told they're "obese" by their doctors. And we're constantly told that if we don't fit into this narrow range (I think the range for my height is 30 pounds), regardless of athletic ability and body composition, that we're going to die terrible deaths from our fat. It's ridiculous!
I personally eat pretty darn well and exercise regularly. I'm healthier and more active than I've ever been (including when I was 7). Yet, at 23, I'm also the heaviest I've ever been. According to these damn charts, I'm overweight and pushing into obese. I wear a size 10 and I feel and look great. But the doctors think I should cut back calories until I lose weight. Well, I only eat 1500 a day! What do they want, me to starve myself?
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» RE: BMI
Posted by: vwaites
» RE: BMI
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: BMI
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: BMI
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» RE: BMI
Posted by: vwaites
» RE: BMI
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» what they measure...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: BMI
Posted by: ezilla
» RE: BMI
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
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Posted by: haystack1317 on Apr 18, 2007 7:27 AM
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Purely physical perfection is unattainable because it is artificial. I worked with an extremely famous actress on a film once. At one point, I saw her in front of me live, and simultaneously saw the monitor, which is what the camera was capturing. The experience taught me a lot. As I watched her in the same living space with me, she seemed like herself, another one of the people in the room, and a wonderful one, like everyone else. But what I saw on the monitor was a different story. The artificiality of the camera transformed her into an idyllic image that was truly startling in its power. But, it was ARTIFICIAL. I'm all for art, of course, but I really learned a lesson at this moment. Comparing real people to artifical means of reproducing their images can be a fatal error.
It will always be part of our evolutionary make-up to have a physical attraction to women who seem young and healthy. It will also always be part of our make-up to be attracted to women who are smart, strong, and compassionate. Have you ever seen a female model (since we're talking about women) who seemed very appealing and then heard her speak? The perspective changes completely. Personally, I've never heard a model speak who seemed anywhere near as attractive afterwards as she was beforehand. On the contrary, I've had thousands of experiences where women who don't look like magazine covers prove to be extremely attractive due to this reality: people are inseparable combinations of countless different qualities, and in the real world in which we're evolved to live, attractiveness is always based on the complete person.
One hundred years ago, before the proliferation of these images, do you think women were as focused on the physical exclusively? Twenty-thousand years ago, when we were still living mostly in the types of environments for which we evolved, do you think anyone other than the most completely balanced woman could ever be the most attractive partner?
I say, look for and resist the tendency for the corporate world to manipulate your evolutionary traits at all cost. Don't let them turn your natural taste for fruit into an addiction to Coca-Cola and eventually diabetes. Don't let them turn only one side of your sense of who people are, the surface, which is the only one they can control, into an even worse disease.
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» Well said! I couldn't agree more. nm
Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: Well said! I couldn't agree more. nm
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Look to the ancestral environment! That's the key
Posted by: chomsky
» RE: Look to the ancestral environment! That's the key
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Look to the ancestral environment! That's the key
Posted by: haystack1317
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 18, 2007 7:33 AM
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But, I just think that books such as this reproduce the argument that every girl has an eating disorder. And these girls make one of my friends, who suffers from poly cystic ovarian syndrome and has been struggling with her weight for years simply mad! It is her, actually, who have made me angry with the "every girl hates her body" syndrome that women's self help books and magazines seem to constantly reproduce.
And heartless? I'm currently getting a master's in social work planning on pursuing a career in community organizing for the human rights of sex workers and the transgendered community. Please, attack my argument, and not me personally.
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Posted by: vwaites on Apr 18, 2007 8:10 AM
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My 'picked on comment' was more toward the the other commenter who specified 'cheerleader', and i didn't seperate that. (though implying that my saying so was less than inteligent--well, it could be seen as insulting. However, I'm just going to chalk that up to the nature of blogging).
I was hurt and angry, and i apologize for calling you heartless--as i don't know you personally or what you do, only by these comments.
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» RE: Heartless?
Posted by: ann83
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 18, 2007 7:41 AM
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And I didn't mean to post it twice! Slow computers are a nuisance at times...
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 18, 2007 8:09 AM
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» Not entirely true
Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Not entirely true
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: WHAT ELSE IS NEW ?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: WHAT ELSE IS NEW ?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Apr 18, 2007 8:27 AM
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» The Lover Government
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The Lover Government
Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
» RE: Frightening
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: vangogh69 on Apr 18, 2007 9:25 AM
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» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: ann83
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: zyxwvut
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: So tired of these WWP!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: greenkris on Apr 18, 2007 9:30 AM
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i think what the article is missing, however, is any commentary on why thinking/obsessing about food, weight, and looks in general has developed into the norm for young women. i think this missing piece is what has led to many of the rather ignorant comments that have been posted such as those that imply the author is a perfectionist who was never fully satisfied or the one stating that women are incompetent if they can't tell the difference between a magazine ad and real life. i would have appreciated more input from the author in this piece.. how does the media create and reinforce these notions of perfection? i think with a bit more development in regard to the WHY of this distressing reality, some of the ignorant assumptions and subsequent unproductive comments could be minimized (acknowledging the author's work in creating her book- extensive consultations with women and professionals - would also help).
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» RE: Eating disorders are a symptom of the problem, and not the problem itself...NM
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: ating disorders are a symptom of the problem, and not the problem itself...NM
Posted by: greenkris
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Posted by: kevred on Apr 18, 2007 9:41 AM
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It affects everyone in some way. Height, leanness, musculature, facial structure, presence or lack of hair on head or body are all widely judged in men, especially in competitive environments. Skin color is, of course, judged all over the place, between and within races. Studies have shown an incredible number of biases and prejudices in the workplace over all manner of physical traits, with the steretypical Ken & Barbie still currying the most favor--at least forgiveness and softer judgment, if not outright preference in every case--in just about every area.
There are important specifics to every angle of the beauty obsession--young women's body images, obesity, resistance to and devaluing of aging (in women earlier than in men, but in both at some point), men feeling pushed into playing the he-man role, one ethnic group feeling pressure to adopt another ethnic group's beauty standards, etc--the list goes on and on.
But the roots to all these issues seem as strong and connected as ever. We as a society hunger for beauty, deperately so, and we hurt and slight and crush and kill for the sake of it.
And the media only seems to find new and stronger ways to fuel it. One example of that is, simply, the average level of attractivess of who we see on TV. Take a look at any number of common TV shows, game shows, news broadcasts, musical-performance shows, etc from 20 years ago, then 30 or 40 years ago. Of course, there have always been beautiful people in the spotlight. But the average show in those earlier decades was full of faces with character--expressive, distinct, a wide palette of appearance (if not always race). Compare to today, where almost every show seems full of wooden young models who have no personality, no ability to emote or create anything of depth, and who are blandly indistinct from one another. Even as racial diversity is on the rise, those chosen all fit a narrowing profile of beauty. Can you imagine Walter Cronkite as lead news anchor today?
In that nutshell alone, we see a fevered race to devalue everything else but one trait--a carefully-sculpted, precise standard of beauty that becomes more important than anything else. That's the message our youth are getting hit with, day in and day out, as their potential role models outside those standards dwindle.
What can be done about this?
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Posted by: harpy on Apr 18, 2007 10:01 AM
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» RE: A fat body is...
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Kym525 on Apr 18, 2007 10:17 AM
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John Stossel (not one of my favourite people to be sure) did a program that aired ABC a year or so ago that dealt with women and body image. He interviewed young women from ALL races and classes and found that the young black women generally felt good about their bodies. The young white and asian women (most of whom were already thin or fit) thought themselves "big".
Don Imus' idiotic comment should have been a part of this discussion. Black women may not suffer from body image issues, but our hair has always been a political mindfield (remember Cynthia McKinney)? It has only been recently that many companies "allow" black women to wear their hair braided or locked, preferring them to use damaging chemicals to "straighten" their hair and therefore present a more 'professional' image. Imus' comment about nappy hair brought that back to the surface, and showed that in spite of all the white guys with dredlocks, society at large still doesn't see natural hair and hairstyles as beautiful (unless Bo Derek does it).
One size does NOT fit all, people. Progressives should know and be practicing this rather than always catering to it.
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» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: fork
» RE: Once Again, Whose Damn Standard are We Talking About???
Posted by: Peregrine
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Posted by: jimidee on Apr 18, 2007 10:24 AM
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I do my part to share the chores and maintenance on our 42 acre farm, as I am retired already. I am on the same regimen as she is, and I am 56 years old, 5'11" and weigh 215 lbs., with 16% body fat...and I feel great. We still have sex several times a week and love to mountain bike, back pack, take multiday motorcycle trips, and everything we did when we were kids. If you are in shape, and not just thin or skinny, there are few limitations.
This stuff isn't rocket science, so why do so many (including the author of this AN piece) try to make it so complicated? One simply has to get away from their bad eating habits and sedentary lifestyles, and the rest takes care of itself. It is the fountain of youth! The bonus is that by living in this manner, we reduce stress the old fashioned way...we BURN it.
It is worth it.
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» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: fork
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: fork
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: Einherjar
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: It isn't about being "skinny" or diets...
Posted by: fork
» Please Grow Up
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Gimmee a break...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Please Grow Up
Posted by: Bobsays
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Posted by: docholliday on Apr 18, 2007 11:32 AM
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» RE: Who Cares
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Sushi on Apr 18, 2007 11:42 AM
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I have been shouted to by grocery store cashiers, "Oh my gawd...look how skinny you are!" I have had "friends" say, " I hate you!" as if I was flaunting myself as a contrast to their rather normal, somewhat more feminine builds. Women want to know "my secret." I have been accused (loudly) of being anorexic even though I struggled for years to gain weight in hopes of gaining a few feminine curves. I look back on photos now and see that while I was thin, I was not bony. The meat on my bones was muscle and I had the look of a tomboy. I was normal for ME.
How many guys, when a women is mentioned, ask first-thing, "What does she LOOK like?" Women are conditioned to believe that their looks are judged a priority. Beautiful women get the attention, the "great personality/good person" infers "she's a dog." What are women supposed to think is valued higher in our society?
A few posts back, someone mentioned how even physically gorgeous women will find fault with some perceived flaw as an expected comeback to any flattering comment. I think this is true. If someone responded, "Yeah, ain't I great just as I am?" they would probably be thrown out of the "Generally Dissatisfied" club for women.
The market thrives on perfection being just out of reach. If only we could buy the newest eye shadow, the latest apricot/mango creme, the most exclusive pampering luxury goop for our hair, we'd be that more desireable and respected by everyone.
((choke))
We've got to stop comparing ourselves to an unattainable standard and just be the best US we can with what we have to work with.
Sushi
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» RE: Body image from the other side
Posted by: Benjaminsjw
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Posted by: Gravitas on Apr 18, 2007 12:32 PM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Apr 18, 2007 1:05 PM
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Imagine 1000 years from now that scientists revive someone from our time. How will he explain to their historians and sociologists how we could let this happen?
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Posted by: cognitorex on Apr 18, 2007 1:09 PM
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But, when I scan the hallelujahs for perfect abs, perfect thighs, and diet claims that girls and women are subject to along with the perfectly thin barely clad idealized females fronting the magazines I feel a social crime is being committed.
Why should all the weight conscious women of America, particularly those who have a diet related disease have to run this gauntlet?
--Craig Johnson--
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» RE: Because it SELLS! -- nm
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Gravitas on Apr 18, 2007 2:55 PM
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» Meant as a response to Jimidee
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Only Frustrated With Stupidity
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: Badger1492 on Apr 18, 2007 3:29 PM
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Also: it could have used some editing and/or spell-checking. And can someone tell me what "Candace Bushnell writing her way into found-hundred-dollar Manolo Blahniks." means? I don't know who Candance Bushnell is or who or what a "Manolo Blahniks" is. Guess I don't watch enough TV.
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» RE: editing?
Posted by: ezilla
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Posted by: eyesunderwater on Apr 18, 2007 5:14 PM
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Posted by: lotus23 on Apr 18, 2007 7:48 PM
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And of course, if you want to find love, just go on Craigslist personals and see how many of ads have beauty requirements like "no fatties!"
While it's true that different ethnicities have different standards of beauty and different body types, there is still a pervasive push to look like Paris Hilton. There is a hegemony.
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Posted by: 50566 on Apr 18, 2007 7:52 PM
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Now, the health angle, type 2 diabeties is becoming epidemic as a result of the computer and convenience. I myself was able to maintain a modest level of fitness as long as I staved off buying a home computer. I was only sitting then for 40 hours a week. Now, the only exercise I get is cleaning the house and doing laundry. The only food I eat is whatever i can stick in the oven or microwave. I'm too busy reading blogs and articles and comments and making my responses....
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 18, 2007 8:18 PM
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Odds are, female judges will pick women that appear the most glamorous without regard to physical fitness which can only be determined with a medical exam.
Moreover, I suspect, ladies picked by women will be skinny, whereas men would favor heavy gals, assuming they have curves and, of course, big tits.
Here's my point. Women who care more about health than appearance will, in the end, attract men more easily -- especially if they are smart and have a good sense of humor. And, of course, have big tits.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» RE: The health nut versus glamor queen test.
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: craftne on Apr 18, 2007 9:11 PM
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I don't know if that's true, but it belies a larger issue. And men have it too, just in different areas. Instead of weight, with men its being better, smarter, faster, tougher, having the best toys, the best girlfriend, yada, yada. Trust me. Have faith I will do a good job.
Okay, oversimplification. But you get my drift. What this is about is insecurity. It is about happiness found from the outside. I have to act, be, do this this way to get what I want and need. And women (me included) believe that weight and (gasp!) age will get them nowhere. The where they want to be? Admired, loved and accepted.
I am 51 years old. I have conditions that make it almost impossible to lose weight. I walk 6 miles a day, sometimes 4 days a week (I've cut down). I do yoga, and I take supplements. I eat healthy for me. I did obsess with my weight. I don't like my weight. But the problem isn't the weight. It's with believing I'm not acceptable with the weight.
That's the problem with everyone. That little niggly insecure feeling that says I am bad - I am not acceptable to other people if I am [_____]. Because that final prize will make us happy.
"I will be happy if I am loved, if I have a man, if I have a great job, if everyone is nice to me. And I can't get that without being perfect."
That's just nuts. Should you let that determine how happy you are? Okay, if you never have a boyfriend, you never have a great job, and if people aren't nice to you, that's going to put you over the edge, isn't it? Why not instead get to the root of the problem? Which is....wait for it....learning how to be happy and secure in yourself no matter what happens? If I have done anything, I hope that my sons will understand this one basic principle before I cross over.
Mind you, the opposite sex for the most part on both sides perpetuates this happiness from outside business. I've been on singles dating sites. Not the one here. You'd be surprised at the amount of men who's "my partner must be" list does not include someone more than average weight and, for the most part 5 to 10 years younger. Women want men who are taller and make money, is that fair to say? (because I don't look much at women's profiles)
There is a huge weight problem, yes. There is a fast food problem yes. I've been talking about the horrible ingredients in food to anyone that will listen. Fast food isn't only in restaurants, darling. Fast food is all over the supermarket. Try buying artificial ingredient free, sugar-free foods for kids.
And the more low fat the food is, the more they've replaced it with sugar and high fructose corn syrup. Sugar and refined flour are worse for you than fat. There are mucho beneficial nutrients in milk fat, and the fat in milk is so neglible. But we go after the 2% and skim with added lactose that will eventually lead to diabetes. Virtually every yogurt on the market uses sugar, fruit sugar or sugar substitutes. None are sweetened with honey and only plain has none at all.
But I digress.
You keep chasing after the carrot, and the carrot will make you suffer.
Bugger it. I'm a wonderful, smart, artistic and talented female, and if there are people who consider that I'm not lovable because I am not a size 10, oops 12, ooops 14, oopps 16, it's their problem. I'm okay. I'm fine.
You reap what you sow. If you are shallow and chase the carrot....if you are happy and secure inside. I'd rather be happy, regardless of what I have or what I get or who I know.
Ta.
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Posted by: tbitom52 on Apr 18, 2007 9:21 PM
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All women are foolish. But there is
nothing wrong with that as it is a natural part of a
woman's cyclical system. However,I know what they dont. Moreover,it is my intention to totally destroy feminism and all the nonsense related thereto. To see
my AUTHORITY for doing so,read below -and weep.
By THOMAS J.P.COURTNEY,ESQ.,Lt.Col,U.S.Army,Defense
Intelligence Agency
> a Traumatic Brain Injury(TBI) Survivor,
> jewsyonkersislam #372,as posted in Wickipedia,
7) Disabilities resulting from TBI
>A brief overlook at what it means to live as a
> Traumatic Brain Injury(TBI) Survivor.
Considering that Bob Woodruff (TV news reporter)
> just did a story on his "recovery" from TBI from an
> injury in Iraq,many veterans from the fighting in Iraq
are TBI survivors and the NYTimes (p.1,3-14-07) just
> did a story on retired NFL players who experienced
> Brain Injury,I will briefly recount a few things I've
learned about being a TBI survivor. As I had my TBI
> when I was 13 and am now 58,I've had a long time to
> try and figure out what I have become. All TBI
> survivors are the "same" yet no two are alike.
> When I "came back","recovered",after being hit by a
> car,fracturing my neck,lying in a coma for 40
> days,awakening to find I was completely paralysed and
> "walking" out of a hospital on a pair of "half"
> crutches after six months of intensive physical
> therapy,I found that I was not alone -and that I had
> many,continuing and ever- new "disabilities". And I'll
> note three: an inability to communicate with others
in a "normal" way,Hyper- sexuality and persistent
> "shivers" that constantly inhibit communication with
> others because they scramble/shock my brain (as to
> these,I believe they are variations/manifestations of
> a form of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy[TLE]).
>Indeed, I was just reading about TBI and things
that I "do"/have always "done" -such as staring at a
> candle,staring out a window...as I experience a
> delicious shudder/shiver- are not unknown. It seems that these moments are somewhat epileptic (many
famous authors (Doestoevsky...) and leaders( Michael
Collins, leader of 1917 Irish independence movement [manic
> depression or TLE ?]...) have also been somewhat
> epileptic: temporal lobe epilepsy[TLE]).
> When I "came back",I learned that I was no longer
> just myself but "myself" floating in a void (an
> 'eternal' present/eternity)within myself. And this
> "void" always sees and does things that I can not help
> but see and do - as I am a mere part(a raft) of (on)
> that "void" (eternity) over which I have no say.
> As to my hypersexuality,it does not bother me so much
> as I am 58. But for nearly 40 years,at least once a
> day and often 2 or 3 times,it left me with overwhelming feelings of guilt,shame,embarrassment.. And yet,on the other hand,you would not believe how many lovely{naked} young and beautiful ladies' bodies I have seen,touched, stroked,kissed,fondled ... or the fact that I have had sexual intercourse with a lady about 15,000-30,000 or more times.
> Moreover,I kid you not -and I kid you not that this is
> a merciless and demanding disability that leaves you
with little chance to do much more....and I struggle daily.
Normal people (non-TBI survivors) like to talk and share experiences,one-to-one. But,as a TBI survivor,
> such is not possible for me because ......
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Posted by: JustaNumber on Apr 18, 2007 9:24 PM
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Like my mother used to say--"There are children starving in Africa." But you know what, Mom? There are people starving right here at home, too. Not just children, but men and women, too. And they're not starving because they want to look fashionable. They're starving because they can't afford enough to feed themselves. How's that for an eating disorder?
We'd do well to worry more about all the people who are starving because they have no choice--and screw the people who have too many choices. To them I say, quit feeling sorry for yourselves and take a moment to be thankful for what you're fortunate enough to have. Take some of that food you're thinking about puking up, quit mindlessly stuffing your face just because you can, and think about somebody less fortunate than yourself for a change. That'll cure your damn eating disorders.
How about let's stamp out hunger instead of worrying so much about our eating disorders, for cripe's sake?
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» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: yesman
» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: otherpeople
Posted by: JustaNumber
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Posted by: yesman on Apr 18, 2007 9:42 PM
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Indeed. And, of course, "wanting" has two meanings: 1) lacking in "perfection"--because perfection is by definition an unattainable goal in an imperfect world; and 2) desiring--that is, wanting to buy another gym membership or piece of exercise equipment or diet pill or diet book, etc., etc., in the hope that the next thing you try will be the magic one to deliver you into "perfection."
The multi-billion-dollar diet and "fitness" industries are all too happy to keep all of us chasing after an unattainable goal by purchasing their products and services. The inexplicable part is--so many of us buy into their trap and willingly enslave ourselves to these capitalist masters.
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Posted by: timebomb734 on Apr 18, 2007 9:45 PM
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Imperfect men (and often unattractive, overweight men) continue to be cast as actors on television shows and movies, become music stars, and achieve other standings of high regard in the entertainment media. Women who are ugly or have unconventionally healthy bodies are only cast as the fat or ugly character. Media execs even cast a pretty, healthy woman to play "Ugly Betty." Young girls are highly impressionable, and this kind of thinking has invaded our psyches. Putting down the women's magazine is not enough, because self-loathing has invaded the culture at large. Women and men devalue women who are not considered thin or beautiful.
When Don Imus made his infamous comment, I went online and sought out the entire transcript. What is most disturbing about the conversation on his show was not the "nappy-headed hos" comment, but was rather the angle from which he discussed the women of both teams. Rather than respecting the women as PEOPLE, he discussed the merits of their looks, with one team as "cute" and the other as "hos". What is ridiculous about the whole situation is not his foul language, but the entire view of women, no matter how accomplished, as being their bodies, and their bodies alone. This is not limited to Don Imus either. People (men and women) constantly reduce women to their looks without regard to the human being behind the face, tits, and ass.
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» RE: Body image...reminds me of
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Body image, women, and Don Imus
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: TerryS on Apr 18, 2007 11:16 PM
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four hours watching TV per day. Do you think
this could somehow be effecting how we view
ourselves and each other?
TV wasn't introduced into Fiji until the
1990's. Here is a study looking at how
TV effected body image in Fiji:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst
/fullpage.html?sec=health&res
=9A03E4DC1E3EF933A15756C0A96F958260
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/news
/0,2107,50700-81467-578111-0,00.html
TV's Glamorous lifestyles have an effect:
http://healthinfo.cedars-sinai.edu/healthyliving
/familyhome/may06soaps.htm
Media effecting men too:
http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels
/p_channelstory.cfm?storyid=11103
For more on how TV is making us dissatisfied:
http://www.tvsmarter.com/documents/depression.html
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» RE: Perfectionism, Self-Loathing, and Television
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: suki on Apr 19, 2007 12:44 AM
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» RE: What about the men?
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 19, 2007 7:06 AM
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GET OVER IT.
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» RE: This life is not about YOU (or me)
Posted by: hellofriends
» fair enough
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: This life is not about YOU (or me)
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: rklira on Apr 19, 2007 10:57 AM
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Posted by: ann83 on Apr 19, 2007 12:14 PM
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Just thought I would point that out.
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Posted by: dayahka on Apr 19, 2007 4:01 PM
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» RE: We need more such women (and men)
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: Eat Politicians on Apr 19, 2007 7:35 PM
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Twiggy started the whole stick girl thing...I think it is pushed on most men by society. A lot of guys (and girls for that matter) prefer curvy women.
So jump in your time machine and assassinate twiggy and you can get this whole sick skinny trend out of popular culture.
Oh, and the huge pecks, shaved chests thing can go away as well....
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Posted by: idealista on Apr 20, 2007 11:31 AM
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We as privileged people (I'm assuming that if you're reading this, you're probably in this category) have a role and responsibility in dealing with global problems like poverty. But we can't be effective change agents if we're obsessed with how we look and being perfect. Being obsessed with appearing perfect isn't about doing anything meaningful - it's about looking like you're doing something meaningful. And if we're talking about whole generations of young women who care more about looking good than actually making change, then I think this is a problem worth discussing.
Another negative consequence of this obsession is that we view our role as the ones in charge or the leaders of change (which is exactly what the role of privileged folks shouldn't be if we're talking serious long-term social justice). I'm so tired of us thinking that we're the ones who are fine/normal/perfect and that we should be spending our time "helping those poor people in Africa." We need to acknowledge that we don't know more than them, we're not better than them, and we have our own pathologies and problems that we need to deal with. Not talking about our obsession with appearance and perfection just fuels the attitude that we are naturally "perfect". But maybe if we start talking about it, we can all ease up a bit, take a step back, and stop being so obsessed with ourselves.
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Posted by: talkville on Apr 22, 2007 4:59 AM
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Posted by: Elfcat1 on Apr 22, 2007 2:13 PM
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All this, meanwhile, at an age when the anti-fat brainwash we all get - and particularly in Los Angeles County where I grew up - in my case came slamming headlong into what I actually started feeling when my turn-ons, well, turned on. I've had it hard (literally) for the fat girls ever since. And even before that, in retrospect, I used to laugh at some of the fat jokes, but the idea that fat people were ugly or that there was some overriding imperative to turn them thin never really took hold in me. I remember going to the beach in LA, and having a warm feeling in my heart when, once in a while, a girl who was other than slender would take to the sand, by all indications a near-insurgent act in that place and time.
Also, because I'm a natural skinny, who is not this way out of adherence to some Spartan near-fascist turning inward of dire militarism (the "lean mean slaughter machine" and all that), I tend not to feel much in common with those who say "I go through all this to be fit, why should I bother with someone who can't keep up?" And all this metering of time and distance, this "speed freak" mentality. Oh, big news flash, fat people don't move as fast as thin people! Big fricking deal. You do remember work is force times distance don't you? If a 400 person goes half the distance a 100 pound person does, the former still got twice as much of a workout as the latter. So much for the whole laziness idea.
But then, though I am naturally thin, I'm also privy to the question of the body image of those with malformations, though if I didn't tell you the only clues you'd have are the slash scars on my ankles. I am a corrected clubfoot, and so don't run at the speed everyone expects of someone my size. I had to struggle to get to the middle of the pack in school laps. So when fat people talk of how much they despised PE, I could understand quite well.
I hear that if we don't watch out, nearly 100% of the American population will be "obese". I still haven't heard how this can happen if fatness is the inferior trait as is so often imputed. Yes, I can see it now, the dwindling number of skinnies heading for extinction while screaming ever louder of how morbid the fatties are who are wiping them out!
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» RE: A Foot In Both Camps
Posted by: talkville
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