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Radical Christian Right Preaches Liberal Evil

Members of the radical Christian End Times movement are being taught to believe that America is ruled by evil, clandestine organizations disguised as liberal groups. As a result, the fearful are hoping for the end.
April 10, 2007  |  
 
 
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The Gilead Baptist Church, outside Detroit, is on a four-lane highway called South Telegraph Road. The drive down South Telegraph Road to the church, a warehouse-like structure surrounded by black asphalt parking lots, is a depressing gantlet of boxy, cut-rate motels with names like Melody Lane and Best Value Inn.

The highway is flanked by a flat-roofed Walgreens, a Blockbuster, discount liquor stores, a Taco Bell, a McDonald's, a Bob's Big Boy, Sunoco and Citgo gas stations, a Ford dealership, Nails USA, The Dollar Palace, Pro Quick Lube and U-Haul.

The tawdry display of cheap consumer goods, emblazoned with neon, lines both sides of the road, a dirty brown strip in the middle. It is a sad reminder that something has gone terribly wrong with America, with its inhuman disregard for beauty and balance, its obsession with speed and utilitarianism, its crass commercialism and its oversized SUVs and trucks and greasy junk food. It is part of our numbing assault against community and connectedness.

Ten or fifteen minutes of negotiating the traffic down South Telegraph Road makes the bizarre attraction of the End Times -- the obliteration of this world of alienation, noise and distortion -- comprehensible. The manufacturing jobs in the Detroit auto plants nearby are largely gone, outsourced to nations with cheaper labor. The paint is flaking off the cramped two-story houses that lie in ugly grid patterns off the highway.

The plagues of alcoholism, divorce, drug abuse, poverty and domestic violence make the internal life here as depressing as the external one. And those gathering today in this church wait for the final, welcome relief of the purgative of violence, the vast, bloody cleansing that will lift them up into the heavens and leave the world they despise -- the one that was devastated by corporatism -- to be racked by plagues and flood and fire until it and all those whom they blame for the debacle of their lives are consumed and destroyed by God. It is a theology of despair. And for many, it can't happen soon enough.

The guru of the End Times movement is a small, elderly, gnome-like man with dyed coal-black hair, a battery-powered earpiece and a pedantic, cold demeanor. He is Timothy LaHaye, a Southern Baptist minister and the co-author, along with Jerry Jenkins, of the "Left Behind" series of Christian apocalyptic thrillers that provide the graphic details of raw mayhem and cruelty that God will unleash on all nonbelievers when Christ returns and raptures Christians into heaven. The novels are the best-selling books in America, with over 62 million in print. They have been made into movies, as well as a graphic video game in which teenagers can blow away nonbelievers and the army of the Antichrist on the streets of New York City.

The global nightmare that leads to the end of history is a visceral and disturbing expression of what believers feel about themselves and our world. The horror of apocalyptic violence -- the final aesthetic of the movement -- at once terrifies and thrills followers. It feeds dark fantasies of revenge and empowerment.

This theology of despair is empowered by widespread poverty, violent crime, incurable diseases, global warming, war in the Middle East and the threat of nuclear calamity. All these events presage the longed-for obliteration of the Earth and the glorious moment of Christ's return. But until then believers are told they must battle Satan. And Satan comes in many guises. In churches across the United States believers are being girded for a holy war, one as self-destructive as that preached by radical Islam.

"We are at war with the religion of Islam," Gary Frazier, another popular leader, tells the crowd in the church outside Detroit, "and it is not a handful of radical Islamists who are taking over the religion and hijacking it. The fact is, ladies and gentlemen, today if you read the Koran, and any person who reads their Koran, the holy book of the Muslims, and believes what the book says, over a hundred times it calls for the putting to death of any person that does not embrace the teachings of Mohammed.

"Can you explain to me how in the West that we would understand a person who would strap dynamite upon themselves and blow themselves up along with innocent men and women and children with the promise that they would have 70 brown-haired, I mean blond-haired, blue-eyed virgins for their unlimited sexual pleasure in this place called Paradise? And the parents of that person then throw a party celebrating the destruction of their child. You want to tell me you understand that kind of mentality? Because I don't believe that. There's no one in the Western world that can comprehend that kind of mind-set, but, ladies and gentlemen, that is the mind-set of the religion of Islam around the world.

"Islam," Frazier says dramatically, "is a satanic religion."

He warns of Muslim "sleeper cells" in America waiting to carry out new terrorist attacks.

"You may have a Muslim doctor, and he may be a wonderful person," he says. "He may love his family, but you know what'll happen? One day, they will come to him -- I'm just using this as an illustration -- they will come to him and they'll say, 'We have a mission for you, and you will either do as you're told,' [or,] and they'll whip out the pictures, 'Here are your three children. We'll send their heads to you in a box.' Now, the difference is, is that if somebody told you that, you'd call the FBI or Homeland Security or somebody like that. They're not going to do that. Do you know why? Because they know the Muslim will do just what they say, and when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road, boys and girls, they're going to save the lives of their own children before they'll save your own. And you most likely would probably do the same thing yourselves."

He pauses and slowly scans the crowd, which sits silently, expectantly awaiting his next sentence.

"I thank God for our men and women who are fighting over there because if they weren't fighting there, we'd be fighting right here in the streets of America. I'm convinced of that," he says, and the sanctuary erupts in loud applause.

America, the crowd is told, is being ruled by evil, clandestine organizations that hide behind the veneer of liberal, democratic groups. These clandestine forces seek to destroy Christians. They spread their demonic, secular humanist ideology through front groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union, People for the American Way, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the National Organization for Women, Planned Parenthood, the Trilateral Commission and "the major TV networks, high-profile newspapers and newsmagazines," the U.S. State Department, major foundations (Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford), the United Nations, "the left wing of the Democratic Party" and Harvard, Yale "and 2,000 other colleges and universities." All of these groups have joined forces, LaHaye has warned, to "turn America into an amoral, humanist country, ripe for merger into a one-world socialist state."

The radical Christian right has no religious legitimacy. It is a mass political movement. It is interchangeable, in many ways, with other traditional political movements ranging from fascism to communism to the ethnic nationalist parties in the former Yugoslavia. It shares with these movements an inability to cope with ambiguity, doubt and uncertainty. It also embraces a world of miracles and signs and makes war on rational, reality-based thought. It condemns self-criticism and debate as apostasy. It places a premium on action. It dismisses those who do not bow down before its god -- and the leaders who claim to speak for God -- as heretics and traitors.

This movement shares with corporatists, who are busy cannibalizing our society for profit, the belief that there are a chosen few who know the truth and therefore have the right to impose it. The citizen, the individual, no longer has any legitimacy in this new world. All legitimacy is assumed by groups, whether they are corporate groups herding us over the cliff of globalization or religious groups that give popular vent to corporate-generated despair through faith in the Christian utopia. In this paradigm -- corporate and religious -- we become disempowered, afraid, passive and easily manipulated.

Apocalyptic visions like this one have, throughout history, cowed populations and inspired genocidal killers. They have enticed societies into collective suicide. These visions nourished the butchers who led the Inquisition, the Crusades and the conquistadors who swept through the Americas converting and then exterminating the native population.

These visions sustained the SS guards at Auschwitz, the Stalinists who consigned tens of thousands of Ukrainian families to starvation and death, the torturers in the clandestine prisons in Argentina during the Dirty War and the Serbian thugs with heavy machine guns and wraparound sunglasses who stood over the bodies of those they had slain in the smoking ruins of Bosnian villages.

Those who promise to purify the world through violence, to relieve the anxiety of moral pollution and despair, appeal to our noblest sentiments, our highest virtues, our capacity for self-sacrifice and our utopian visions of a cleansed world. It is this coupling of fantastic hope and profound despair, along with visions of peace and light and absolute terror, of selflessness and murder, which frees the consciences of those who call for and carry out the eradication of those they have banished from moral consideration.

When leaders of this movement, such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, sanction, as they do, pre-emptive nuclear strikes against our enemies, and therefore the enemies of God, they fuel the passions of terrorists in love with the same apocalyptic nightmares. They march us to our own doom cheered by the delusion that once the dogs of war, even nuclear war, are unleashed, hundreds of millions will die, but because Christians have been blessed and chosen by God they alone will arise in triumph from the ash heap.

In this new world, where those who seek to do us harm will soon have in their hands cruder versions of the apocalyptic weapons we possess, dirty bombs or chemical or biological agents, the vision of those among us who welcome catastrophic warfare, indeed seek to hasten it, who fervently await the apocalypse and the end of time, who believe they will be lifted up into the sky by a returning Christ, forces us all to kneel before the god of death. The prayers these "Christians" near Detroit -- and tens of millions across the nation -- utter for deliverance and apocalyptic glory only hasten our flight from reality and ensure our self-annihilation.

Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School and was a foreign correspondent for nearly two decades for The New York Times, is the author of "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America."
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THANK YOU
Posted by: wawa on Apr 10, 2007 7:13 AM   
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The fastest growing cult in the USA is the cult of neo-christian zionism;

Which is politically driven and inherently anti-Semitic theology based on FEAR;

FEAR is how totalitarian regimes manipulate and control the people.

The gospel/good news JC preached was:

"FEAR NOT! You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free."

JC was into liberation-NOT control.

JC was never a Christian-he was born, lived and died under OCCUPATION.

JC was a social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who ROSE UP and challenged the job security of the Temple by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the high priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God,

God loved them just as they were;

Diseased, outcasts, sinners, widows, orphans, refugees, prisoners, all enduring under Roman occupation.

There are many Christian voices challenging the likes of Hagee, Lindsay, Robertson, Fawell,


To name but 3

www.sabeel.org

http://www.sizers.org/

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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» Jesus was a radical liberal Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Jesus was a radical liberal Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Pardon Me!?! Posted by: djnoll
» excellent, djnoll nm Posted by: Beck
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: lively56
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Pardon Me!?! Posted by: Malamute
» bobvb@cox.net Posted by: Robert Veasey
» RE: bobvb@cox.net Posted by: ohb0b
» If God is God Posted by: openhouse
» RE: THANK YOU Posted by: yellow
» displaying ignorance Posted by: openhouse
» RE: THANK YOU Posted by: clydeb1443
» RE: THANK YOU Posted by: yellow
» RE: THANK YOU Posted by: redweasel61

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fanatic fantasy not noble sentiment
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Apr 10, 2007 7:15 AM   
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The one line I take issue to is that this sort of cleansing through violence appeals to anyone's "noble sentiments". Read : Skipping towards Armageddon" for a look behind the multi-multi million empire that Tim LaHaye and Jenkins have built for themselves.

It breaks my heart that this is a large trend of Christianity. That more than one patron has come to me in the library and asked for these books, because "people don't read the bible you know"--I say they are in FICTION but of course they don't get it. They take the books out by the armload.

They can't burn themselves out fast enough...they are the ones who are bringing on their self fulfilling "prophesy" and they are the scariest people around.

One of the bumper stickers on my car says "In case of Rapture I'm taking your car"...hope it's a BMW

All this got it's start in the mid 1800's among other fanatic, oddball religious bunk. I'll take secular humanism, Taoism and UU any day. And send out my intentions to the Universe that these scary souls go by the wayside quickly.

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wormfood
Posted by: P3K on Apr 10, 2007 7:22 AM   
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I would rather my soul be food for the worms then spend one second of eternity in a heaven with these people. I like your Christ but I don't much care for your Christians.

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» RE: wormfood Posted by: amrahne
» RE: wormfood Posted by: openhouse
» RE: wormfood Posted by: psychotic1

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Nothing To Do With Jesus Christ
Posted by: ZPaul on Apr 10, 2007 7:25 AM   
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What these people are selling has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ. As a Christian, and as a human being, with every fibre of my being, I reject this obscene, hate-filled, insanity.

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» Add me to the list. Posted by: Sojourner
» i applaud your rejection... Posted by: brasilaron

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The world run by "liberals"?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 10, 2007 7:33 AM   
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Wow.. talk about swallowing propaganda without questioning at all.

So... even when they controlled all three houses until last november... the nation was still being run by liberals?

Thats right up there with their religious majority is being persecuted.

These people are utterly dellusional.

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PseudoLeft preaches conservative evil
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties on Apr 10, 2007 7:36 AM   
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and the PseudoLeft and the Right collaborate to force the same social wedge issues to the forefront of the political debate, much to the glee of the upper class, who then do not have to pay progressive income taxes and who enjoy more power over the working class.

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Teach your children well
Posted by: reval on Apr 10, 2007 7:37 AM   
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Help them to identify madness when it's staring them in the face. Give them the tools they need to resist superstition, myth, fabel, hearsay and mysticism.

Insist that they arm themselves daily against the forces of madness.

WVCSR

Rev. El Mundo

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» RE: Teach your children well Posted by: CombatJourno

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Not Christian Teaching
Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 10, 2007 7:37 AM   
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The values these fear and hate mongers represent as Christian are no more in-line with the teachings of Jesus than those of George W. Bush represent those of the environmental movement. These types are users- trading upon the fears and desperation of people without hope, unsure of the future, and generally poorly informed about the world around them.

Timothy LaHaye is a scam artist who should know better. The whole concept of 'Christian Fiction' is antithetical to faith in general and Christianity in particular. The message of the Christian faith is a claim to a universal truth that God has called all people to be reconciled to peace, grace, love, mercy, charity, and hope- that a cold, hard, selfish, greedy, violent and merciless world is not our only option. A teaching that each and every person is our brother and sister and that we are responsible for them- not just ourselves. A message of hope- not fear.

Jesus never charged admission nor did he sell anything. LaHaye and his ilk sell everything.

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» Paranoia justifies all Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Paranoia justifies all Posted by: craftne
» Liberals the anti Christ??? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» What the hell . . . Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: What the hell . . . Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What the hell . . . Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: What the hell . . . Posted by: Vandover
» RE: Liberals the anti Christ??? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Conservasaurus. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Conservasaurus. Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: Conservasaurus. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Conservasaurus. Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Conservasaurus. Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Conservasaurus. Posted by: ohb0b

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This is what results
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 10, 2007 7:43 AM   
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when people are stripped of dignity and opportunity. Blaming them only furthers the cycle of alienation, despair, and then rage.

We as a nation have allowed the conditions that promote apocalypticism to gain strength. We should blame ourselves collectively.

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Remember Diderot's wisdom
Posted by: reval on Apr 10, 2007 7:43 AM   
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Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

WVCSR

Rev. El Mundo

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Still, if desperate people need an outlet for expressing faith in the ultimate - if unnoticeable -
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 10, 2007 7:48 AM   
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stability of their existence, and with this a grand vision of righteous justice and vengeance against the horrors of their lives and the people causing these, they should adopt Marxism and unify around this belief system.

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I'd like to see this given wider attention.
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Apr 10, 2007 7:51 AM   
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"The radical Christian right has no religious legitimacy. It is a mass political movement."

Excellent point, right on target, and too often ignored.

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And who is to blame....
Posted by: cmaukonen on Apr 10, 2007 8:10 AM   
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The plagues of alcoholism, divorce, drug abuse, poverty and domestic violence make the internal life here as depressing as the external one. And those gathering today in this church wait for the final, welcome relief of the purgative of violence, the vast, bloody cleansing that will lift them up into the heavens and leave the world they despise -- the one that was devastated by corporatism -- to be racked by plagues and flood and fire until it and all those whom they blame for the debacle of their lives are consumed and destroyed by God. It is a theology of despair. And for many, it can't happen soon enough.

These very people are the ones who have supported and previously benefited from these very things they now despise.

And so it goes.

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» RE: And who is to blame.... Posted by: craftne

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frank67
Posted by: frank67 on Apr 10, 2007 8:11 AM   
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Nuts, wherever they "preach," are still NUTS!

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These leaders are channeling the rage of these oppressed souls
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 10, 2007 8:13 AM   
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away from its proper target: the elites, corporate and political.

All legitimacy is assumed by groups, whether they are corporate groups herding us over the cliff of globalization or religious groups that give popular vent to corporate-generated despair through faith in the Christian utopia. In this paradigm -- corporate and religious -- we become disempowered, afraid, passive and easily manipulated.

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John A. Broussard
Posted by: jurgen on Apr 10, 2007 8:22 AM   
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What's most fascinating is how both Christianity and Islam have spawned these hate groups, which have two major features in common: they believe in one god; they believe in the violent destruction of those who don't share their specific views about that god.

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» RE: John A. Broussard Posted by: outsideagitator

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How do we make progress with them?
Posted by: juanpecan81 on Apr 10, 2007 8:29 AM   
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If defining characteristics of leftism is inclusiveness and compassion then how do we bring these ppl into the fold?

You can't force awareness or critique on people, but the first step is to still recognize them as people and equals. They've been deluded by the empty promises of imperialism/capitalism and they look to the strong daddy to provide answers. Common (universal?) problem with unique expressions.

These people are probably lonely, isolated and have an unplaceable anger (also sounds familiar). They probably feel robbed: deprived of something owed to them.

They are products of a social order that teaches a blind obediance to authority (as opposed to a productive discourse on how authority/social standards need to be adjusted to reach a workable human balance). A preacher placing a name, any name, and directing that anger anywhere is welcome...especially when playing on our natural ingroup/outgroup tendencies.

So where do we go? I'd like to hear yr thoughts.
2 thoughts for the discussion:

"To contract something, you must first let it expand" - Tao te Ching

"We win justice quickest by rendering justice to the other party" - Gandhi (what is justice? the absence of negative influence/control?)

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» with them? I doubt it. Posted by: counterpoint
» Use Microsoft tactics Posted by: Dboy

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Cult of Obedience - Collective Insanity
Posted by: Aimee on Apr 10, 2007 8:31 AM   
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Thank God these people are out numbered by the rest of us. They are followers of the Cult of Obedience. Collective Insanity. Pretty scary ... ignorance is dangerous. And who are they following? Their church leaders and g. w. bush.

Aimee
DataOptions.com

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Christianism...
Posted by: catnapping on Apr 10, 2007 8:35 AM   
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like the other monotheists...all about heirarchy - all about control.

As a native american who is NOT christianist, I dare not tell people here in the corporeal world that I am pagan. I have seen christianists turn on a DIME when they found out someone they LIKED and respected was pagan.

There is no freedom of religion in this country. Not until people like me can practice our faith in the open. But as long as christianists get to demonize us...we're at risk...they'd send us to the ovens, given half the chance. (it won't stop with the Muslims).

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» RE: Christianism... Posted by: brainvib
» RE: Christianism... Posted by: catnapping

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Not so Right
Posted by: Gisele on Apr 10, 2007 8:38 AM   
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I've been asked how I maintain my faith in "days like these,"...my answer is that as days go by, my faith doesn't waiver - it grows stronger because Revelation is proving to be the only source of accurate prophecy (speaking of the Biblical rather than the Christian Right version.)

We've been warned of one-world government, and one-world religion, it will come to pass no matter what we do. It's already well on it's way! Those leading both groups will be misled Christians, or those using the guise of Christianity to do their work. Unfortunately, too many good people have let LaHaye, Hagee, Falwell, Robertson and numerous Popes run away with their faith and their common sense.

Remember that old saying your Mama taught you? "Dance with the one what brung ya"...that means if you're going to call yourself a Christian, be one - DO what He did. Not what the hate mongers in the mega-churches are trying to shove down your throat - and everyone else's. It's well past time for Christians to show respect for other religions whether they're agreed with or not. That means reading your own Bible, not taking a pastor or ministers word for what they think it means - you will find that God has many Sons, but only one "begotten" one. All of those Sons deserve our respect, whether they are Islamic, Buddhist or any other religion.

Finally will someone from the Christian Right please show me where Jesus advocated violence in any form to accomplish His will? You can't...and you know it. So please stop calling yourself "Christian"...you're giving Him and those who truly try follow Him, a bad name.

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» accurate prophecy? Garbage! Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: accurate prophecy? Garbage! Posted by: counterpoint
» Believe as you do? Posted by: doctorsquared
» children of God Posted by: openhouse
» RE: children of God Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: children of God Posted by: djnoll
» RE: children of God Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: children of God Posted by: craftne
» historicity Posted by: openhouse

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Wahabism American Style
Posted by: abqbabe on Apr 10, 2007 8:42 AM   
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Those subscribing to the LeHaye version of "Christian" justice, morality and lust for an apochalypse are eerily similar to the beliefs espoused by the Taliban and the Wahabi extremists. The only real difference is that the Muslim political extremists are already living their apochalyptic wars and attempting to forcefully impose their vision on society by violence.

The same disillusionment, anger, despair, and "highest hopes" contrasted with the desire for revenge against those who have created the ugliness, immorality and inequities of the world, fuel not only the masses of the Christian Right, but Islamic Fundamentalism as well, from suicide bombers to the rigid strictures of Wahabism. It is only a small step for the Christian Right to become the American edition of the Taliban.

Saddest of all is that these two political groups (Christian and Muslim), separated by culture and ignorance, actually want the exact same thing. Instead, their leaders foment ever more misunderstanding and hatred among their followers to enhance their own power.
It is tribalism writ big, with a very earthly agenda of longing for power over those "not us" - the unbelievers - and reward for and vindication of one's own fears and prejudices.

To long for destruction is to long for death: to choose death is to choose Satan. Those seeking the End Times have already forsaken the God they claim to worship, and closed their ears to His message.

Ary

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GO INDIGI!!
Posted by: caru on Apr 10, 2007 8:43 AM   
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i spend some time wondering about the minds of these men who are not christlike ... i am glad you, chris, pointed out that this americacca has created an ugly wastland. the wasteland not a one can connect to as spiritual. this ugly creation -- from the greedy self centered consumers -- can only be destroyed.

i am glad you point out they lack any appreciation for beauty. they consume the land, they do not connect to the beauty of the creation -- turtle island -- we need only tune into the sacred earth and get some real religion -- the beauty of this creation that is us. that is all it takes to be indigi, enjoy the numinous moment and the beauty of the land and water and all the amazing little and large creatures.

chris, can you please write some words of those who have abandoned this apcolaptic way of thinking and have come onto the truth of indigenous living on this planet. the ancient truths in yoga and shamanism. the mystics. jc was a mystic who studied yoga ... we need to provide a path for those locked onto full on destruction ... we need to outline a path of beauty -- including the ancient way of the iroquois -- which our constitution is based on -- including womun ... we need to outline a path which can gingerly bring us back from this crazed mind that these crazed people perpetuate.

may the world be at peace. may we all find our way in peace. blessings and abundance and happiness. GO INDIGI!!!

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How it's gonna end
Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 10, 2007 8:47 AM   
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Apocalypse Soon

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» RE: How it's gonna end Posted by: peaknik35

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The Religious Right is manipulated by corporations.
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Apr 10, 2007 9:09 AM   
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In the Great Depression desparate people were attracted to Communism and Socialism because they recognized that their problems were economic. This was a danger to the rich corporate elite that runs our country and they fought against them. When the economic situation improved, the people abandoned Communism and Socialism but the establishment fought them for 70 years after they were no longer a danger. They spun these economic systems in the public mind into political systems, associated with dictators.

With the option of a different economic system out of peoples' minds the desparate now turn to religion. This poses no danger to the corporate establishment and so it's fostered and turned against the liberal ideas that are a threat to the establishment.

It's easy for we on the left ro see that the religious are being manipulated by the establishment. It's not so easy to see that we are also being manipulated by the same establishment. It is hard to believe because we feel superior to the yahoos, the rednecks, and the Nascar crowd. We're too smart to be manipulated. "Pride goeth before the fall".

The evidence is plain to see. It's public record. Click on Open Secrets The same industries fund both of our political parties.

They don't fund both parties because they want both parties to win. They fund both parties so it doesn't make much difference which party wins. And all along we were convinced that we had the power of the vote. We got all panicky when the election was "stolen" but didn't mind when it was bought.

Feel free to discuss your favorite candidate but be sure that he/she is electable. That means that he/she is acceptable to the corporate establishment.

I even forgot the names of the last bunch of unelectable hopefuls. I only remember that one was too short, one was deranged, one was a clown, and another was a black woman who we weren't "ready for". In other words they were not acceptable to the corporatocracy that controls both parties.

We are in a very dangerous situation. The establishment has split the workong class into two groups that disrespect, despise, and fear each other. Fear is the strongest human emotion; the strongest animal instinct. Will we let the corporatocracy stay in power until we are at war with each other?
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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Mr.
Posted by: Gerald on Apr 10, 2007 9:18 AM   
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The commentary shows that when paranoid people are not surrounded by enemies they will invent them. In the 1950s, 60s, 70s and even into the 80s the Communists provided the threat, even though they were not much a threat to world order. 9/11 provided us with a new perceived forever enemy.

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» RE: Mr. Posted by: albrechtkrausse

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If God is on our side-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 10, 2007 9:18 AM   
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he will stop the next war.

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» RE: If God is on our side- Posted by: brainvib

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Every bit as Christian as Jim Jones' "People's Temple"...
Posted by: xbj on Apr 10, 2007 9:24 AM   
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...and leading to the same exact result... suicide and self-damnation.

Jesus said "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES. BLESS THOSE THAT CURSE YOU."

These pitiful bastards aren't Christians, and woe to them when they realize their god was Lucifer.

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Report a Theft
Posted by: brainvib on Apr 10, 2007 10:01 AM   
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A group of unprincipaled fanatics have stolen a word. The word is, "Christian". The definition of that word, to paraphrase the dictionary, is one who believes in Christ.
Why suddenly have we, the english speaking world, allowed this fanatic cult to steal the label "Christian"?
A common question asked by a bac(born again christian) is
"Are you a Christian"? By my definition and that of Webster
and Funk and Wagnall, YES I AM! But by the bac definition I certainly am not. I want my label back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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» RE: eport a Theft Posted by: xbj
» RE: eport a Theft Posted by: Gisele

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bah, humbug...
Posted by: jessicalh on Apr 10, 2007 10:29 AM   
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Much of this is true, and it's quite well written. But these are not straw men, and the article doesn't help me understand them much. I'd be more interested in how many people in the radical right christianist movement manage to preach doom and brimstone on Sunday, vote for monsters, and interact with a complex, diverse society on weekdays; or why people - who are in many ways just like us - buy into this as completely as they do. I think the article is right on, generally -- but the standard schtick about urban despair and so on is too polemical and narrow to give much insight.

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» read Hedges' book Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: read Hedges' book Posted by: jessicalh
» Flint, Michigan Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: bah, humbug... Posted by: morticia

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Opportunity?
Posted by: Knowmad on Apr 10, 2007 10:39 AM   
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I actually don't blame the adherents so much. Many people are too limited, trusting or lazy to make informed decisions, and these are the fodder of pathetic manipulators like lehay.

Wishful thinking perhaps, but what if progressives could take advantage of these circumstances and inflict some serious damage to these sick enterprises, and have those who benefit exposed for the immoral parasites they are to boot.

If the three most dangerous cabals - the religious right, corporate pimps, and their neocon political whores - could be set against one another somehow (maybe a few smart inside operators, telling 'secrets' to each group about about how the others are going to betray them) they just might all go down in a passionate blaze of putrid self-interest. I don't suggest anyone should actually be hurt, just those responsible reaping what they've sown, and their victims given another chance to chose for themselves.

My own little version of the rapture.

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» RE: Opportunity? Posted by: antu

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Why Don't Christian's Talk about the 10 Commandments
Posted by: leedavis546@msn.com on Apr 10, 2007 10:40 AM   
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The main problem in all the Christian Church's, is the Fact that we rely to much on Priests or Ministers, to tell us how we should live our lives, and when they disappoint us. because Ministers & Priest's are human like us,we turn away from god. what has kept me going, is that I try to follow the Ten Commandment's. no excuses, I try to follow them to the letter, if any religious leader tell's me to Disobey them, I think maybe it's the Devil speaking.

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» Which 10 Commandments? Posted by: counterpoint
» how about just the golden rule Posted by: liberalibrarian
» don't believe it Posted by: counterpoint
» Supernatural Being Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive

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Recommended reading
Posted by: morticia on Apr 10, 2007 10:41 AM   
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WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS--How Conservatives Won the Heart of America, by Thomas Frank, and (coming out in June)
DEER HUNTING WITH JESUS--Dispatches From America's Class War, by Joe Bageant. You'll learn how and why we're in the mess we're in.

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Religious Stupid
Posted by: vertical on Apr 10, 2007 11:12 AM   
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There is going to be an Armageddon because the religious stupid are making it a self fulfilling prophecy.

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» RE:ligious Stupid Posted by: Ellie1
» Religious Automatons Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: eligious Stupid Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: eligious Stupid - no thanks Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: I think it can be done... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal

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They'll bring us all down
Posted by: peaknik35 on Apr 10, 2007 11:54 AM   
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If they achieve their goal of a christian nation, you will not see this nation do anything to slow or stop global warming. The nightmare scenarios of Peak Oil will only be seen as part of Christ's return. My entire family is part of the Assemblies of God church. While they don't continually obsess on the end times, they do buy into all of this. Most of my family own the Left Behind series. While we as progressives see saving our planet as the most rational sane thing any human being could do, the born agains have a very scary "why bother" atitude. They really believe it's all over real soon. When you combine that with the percentages of people who claim to be conservative christian, I think we need to be very wary of these people. Their belief system leaves no room for debate. The bible says to beware false prophets, so trying to engage these people in anything that doesn't fall within their preset thinking just makes them shut down and not listen. At that point, they believe, its just the devil talking to them. They are the majority and this Nation will never steer a course away from disaster because of them.

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» RE: They'll bring us all down Posted by: churchofone
» RE: They'll bring us all down Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: They'll bring us all down Posted by: aussidawg

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The fearful are hoping for an end?
Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 10, 2007 12:03 PM   
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You should change your subject from the fearful to THE STUPID!

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Pray
Posted by: weatherking on Apr 10, 2007 12:27 PM   
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Pity and try to ignore the fools; teach their children to have more sense.

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Great. These are probably my NEIGHBORS
Posted by: churchofone on Apr 10, 2007 12:41 PM   
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I live in the Downriver suburbs of Detroit, about 5 miles away from this church. Which means that there may be some of my neighbors who are congregants. And this is not the only church in the area with this type of gloomy theology.

I do take exception with the author's description: The paint is flaking off the cramped two-story houses that lie in ugly grid patterns off the highway......The plagues of alcoholism, divorce, drug abuse, poverty and domestic violence make the internal life here as depressing as the external one.

It is not all the gloom-and-doom portrayed. I live in what is considered a blue-collar community, and although there are some neglected and vacant homes, most people take care of their homes. My city simply will not tolerate property neglect!

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I WONDER HOW THE PEOPLE IN NOAH'S DAY REACTED TO HIS WARNINGS?
Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 10, 2007 1:11 PM   
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I am NOT part of the evangelical "Left Behind Christian" movement. In fact, many in that movement would consider me a Mormon to be a Satan worshiper.

That said, some of their warnings are on target at least from a Biblical prospective. As I read this "hit piece", I wondered IF a similar type of piece was written in Noah's day? I wonder when the signs leading up to Jesus's 2nd Coming become more and more fullfilled, whether folks on AlterNet will be like those in Noah's day? The signs were there but ignored.

As Christ decends in His glory, all those living a telestial type of life will be burned up at His coming (see D+C 76 for whose these people are (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76), the earth will be transfigured to a terrestrial existence and peace will reign for 1000 years. Fortunately more than 8 people will survive unlike in Noah's day when only eight survived the flood.

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» Ruler of the Universes? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: uler of the Universes? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: uler of the Universes? Posted by: thirdmg
» Change Your Wicked, Wicked Ways! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Change Your Wicked, Wicked Ways! Posted by: poppop_schell
» Well, since the story is a myth... Posted by: doctorsquared
» What part was nonsense? Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: What part was nonsense? Posted by: poppop_schell

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Francis Z / NYC
Posted by: beautykilledbeast on Apr 10, 2007 1:11 PM   
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About a year and a half ago, the analogy of George W. Bush:Caesar Nero was making the e-mailable rounds.

I felt this comparison begged one question: why worry over the commonweal when the End Times are imminent and
it's our responsibility to hurry the End along?

Let me tell you, there are many, many Christians I know who I'd like to see crucified, burned at the stake, fed to the lions, and about in that order.

We should do them the favor and bestow their crowns of martyrdom.

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"Apocalyptic visions like this one..." have what?
Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 10, 2007 1:30 PM   
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If they have inspired all the religious violence, then what have all the secular apocalyses done? So "Matrix" is responsible for what?

I grew up on science fiction. Those who read the New Testament as science fiction are no better and no worse. Except I now see science fiction as a waste of my time. And I see journalism wallowing in the drama of religious science fiction as a similar waste. Be gone, fool.

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our historical treatment of Middle-Eastern peoples
Posted by: amiabledave on Apr 10, 2007 1:34 PM   
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I'd be interested in knowing how the political leaders of our nation valuate human life in the Middle East, especially Arab and Persian life. Are these people just ciphers whose body count need never be invoiced and made public knowledge? How much horror and devastation must we rain upon these peoples before Americans are sickened by our actions?

Although all poor, illiterate, and oppressed people who -- through no fault of their own -- live under conditions of war, privation, and authoritarian rule are subject to fundamentalism and suiciidal tendencies, it does not subtract their humanity.

"Persecution makes proselytes." – Voltaire

How must it look to the world when rag-tag freedom fighters stand atop piles of rubble facing jets, tanks, AND GPS-guided rockets -- the most sophisticated, best-equipped military on the planet -- and are victorious? How can we consider ourselves brave and moral when we go after countries whose suffering peoples lack even the convience of an electric toaster?

We have this history of supporting tyranny whenever it serves our purposes, having recently armed Iraq, Iran, and the Taliban in Afghanistan. We have supported Israel's takeover of Arab land, after denying victims of the Holocaust a refuge in America?

Is there ever a point when Americans cannot forgive themselves for cowardly, self-serving actions?

Is it wise to trade democracy and morality for empire? How can we be happy attacking not an army, but the strategy of religious extremists who have only their chains to lose?

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What book has everyone been reading?
Posted by: whyoung on Apr 10, 2007 1:48 PM   
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Some of what Jesus "preached" was full of hatred and violence against non-believers. The character Jesus comes off as being at least bipolar if not totally schizophrenic if read verbatim and not colorized with interpretation.

Luke 19:27 is but one example of his radical nature, there are plenty more.

There are many heroic characters in literature with greater words of wisdom than Jesus the Christ.

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» RE: What book has everyone been reading? Posted by: staringatthesun

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It's Irrelevant
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Apr 10, 2007 1:55 PM   
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What djnoll says about 'real' Christians is irrelevant.

Christians who 'interpret' the Bible rather than believe in it wholeheartedly are as irrelevant as dew evaporating before the morning sun.

People who interpret the Bible to fit it into a milder form, fit for actual human consumption, are bastardizing what religion is all about. Religion is by its very nature an US vs. THEM proposition. It is DESIGNED to cleave, to make YOU and YOURS better than THOSE OTHERS. That is the point and purpose of religion. It is that way to this very moment in time. You know it and I know it.

All of you Christians who are trying to prove a point by making your religion 'palatable' for the rest of us are playing a game called mental masturbation. Religion has never been designed, invented, cultivated or cultured for mass inclusion. It's purpose is NOT to provide comfort for the masses. You only say it is. Saying doesn't make it so. It just means you SAID it. Religion has always spread thru rape, lies and plunder (read your Bible if you don't believe that) - thru the use of the sword, edicts, bulls, pronouncements, pogroms, and convert or die schemes. It has always and forever will be used to take your money, gain control over your mind, your heart, your family, your relationships, your state, your school boards, your countries, etc. It is a power game. It is a Ponzi scheme. It is a tool for political purposes. Look at what's going on just in the Justice Dept. of he US to see the latter in vital, dynamic action in real time.

The present state, condition, and example that is US culture today proves this point like no other can in modern history. You will witness the demise of 'mild' Christianity because it can't withstand the onslaught of tens of millions of dollars that are used to present FEAR as the basis for its perpetuation. It, being fundamentalist Christianity.

Christianity can't and has never explained the meaning of life, the purpose of pain, provided an explanation for evil, nor can it manifest a soul, an angel or its god. It can ONLY present false dichotomies, call you a sinner and wage war. You are seeing it happen in front of your very eyes in America. That is true Christianity in this nation. That is Christianity in history.

If your god is so powerful, so omniscient, and so incredibly insightful you MUST explain why it/he/she is allowing Christian fundamentalists so much power and control. It will ultimately be used for total and complete evil. As it always has and as it always will.

You can't explain this bizarre god of yours because your god is not there. YOUR GOD IS NOT THERE. The only thing that is there is fear in people's hearts, extremely low education of Christianity's adherents, the inability to understand the difference between right and wrong - due to drug abuse, alcoholism, and external loci of control for the vast majority of 'believers'. Oh, and the willingness to believe leaders who say they know better than you - all because you are LAZY beyond words to describe.

Nothing can stop the masses of totally ignorant Christians from gaining the power they so desperately need. They want it badly because the further they delve into this cult of hate, the emptier and emptier they become. They ultimately experience a near perfect vacuum of emotional instability and lash out at others. They project their emptiness on the rest of us. They get sucked in. It's like explosive decompression out an airlock into the void of space. They find themselves there and desperately attempt to fill that empty hole by following the edicts of their fear: make them believe, tell them they're sinners, lash out at those who KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is NO god.

Christians have no soul but wish they did. You and I will suffer because of them.

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» Situation Seems Hopeless Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: It's Irrelevant Posted by: djnoll

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HOPE THERE'S ENOUGH KOOL AID TO GO AROUND
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 10, 2007 2:49 PM   
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I'm at a loss for words here. Thanks, ANNA

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It's upside down and backwards 2 points
Posted by: antu on Apr 10, 2007 4:22 PM   
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Any Leader who has had a desire for peace and an end to poverty has been martyred.
This is the sad thing about our world, and it has been going on for as long as humans have inhabited this planet.
I can only think of a few. Jesus, (wouldn't it have been something if Jesus were able to get the jews to allow those who really needed the healing baths of the temple to come in and bathe?, OK for health's' sake then have separate facilities, but still I don't see how his time on earth changed much of anything sad to say, like Jefferson said, he was killed to soon to make the impact that might have been possible for a renewed humanitarian world) Gandhi, Martin Luther, John Lennon, Pope Paul II was shot. (I won't put Reagan in there for obvious reasons).
I was born with this sensitive spirit that rejects war greed poverty sweatshops, malls, monsanto, the perrrfect 60's hippy. This is why I relate so much to Christ, and Jefferson, and these other martyrs... This tendancy is so strong in me that if I were born a wealthy elite I'd have the family's billions to work with to make some sort of change in economic structure, to the point of at least having a commune, but I'd probably get kicked out of the family.
And those who actually do the work are not the ones who are rewarded. Have you ever heard the line I built this house? When it takes at least 10 people to do so?
Alas I'm just a 3rd generation mason laborer, trying to get a respectable wage from the coffers of greedy home owners, who are too cheap to buy real rock and insist on fake rock to make the appearance of expensive solid foundation or fireplace...
Wannabes... most upper-middle class Idahoans are cheap elitist- aristocrat -wannabes who waste their money on inefficiency and fake (you name it),...They come to Idaho to exploit cheap labor and cannot fathom voting for a higher minimum wage. They are a big part of the liberal attack mechanism. I cannot get any more money out of them than I did in the 70's. I do the creative masonry labor they play the stock market and bitch at those who would labor all day everyday for pittance and blame them for their plight. Is playing in the stock market the same as making an honest living working?
They are for the most part FOX attack news worshipers who play in the Christian right for their secure status.
And believe me they have killed and will kill to keep it this way.

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They're not just here!
Posted by: tommy_slothrop on Apr 10, 2007 4:40 PM   
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I recently spent some time in some of the small towns along the Amazon in Brazil. They are being taken over by evangelicals funded by the christian right in the US. Unlike typical Brazilians they are hostile to visitors from abroad. Often the whole town has speakers distributed through it from which sermons are broadcast. There are posters around town urging the people to vote for the political candidates that Pat Robertson approves of. It's really an ugly scene!

These people are spreading their sickness throughout the entire world!

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» RE: They're not just here! Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: They're not just here! Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: They're not just here! Posted by: counterpoint

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Eighty/twenty
Posted by: willymack on Apr 10, 2007 4:57 PM   
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It's been often said that in any given work situation, 20% of the employees do 80% of the useful work, and the rest bring up the rear. Any supervisor or manager worth his or her salt almost immediately recognizes who is who and plans the workday accordingly. Firing or demoting slackers does not change this equation one bit; the 80/20 situation will persist. The same thing exists in the population as a whole. Eighty percent (at least) are incurious, unimaginative, dullards, with middling minds and extremely rigid and non-adaptive mind sets. They're perfect suckers for anyone who tells them what to think, what to eat,who to trust, or distrust, etc. The remaining small minority (20%) are doctors, scientists, educators, engineers, and other people vital to the functioning of society, and are the ones who invent cures for polio, fuel cells, safe x-ray machines, and all the neat gadgets we take for granted. They also provide another function; they lift us from the depths of ignorance and fear based on the silly superstitutions of the past, but only if we seek out and use the knowlege they've toiled to give us. Sadly, that 80% seems immune to their efforts and won't budge from their current mind-set, thus the distrust of science as opposed to belief. There are some very bad people taking advantage of this, and if the 80% of non-thinkers ever gain the upper hand, we're in for a rough ride.

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» And so it goes... Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Eighty/twenty Posted by: antu
» RE: ighty/twenty Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: ighty/twenty Posted by: willymack
» RE: Pareto's Law Posted by: LeaderofMen

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In GOD we trust?
Posted by: righteousbabe on Apr 10, 2007 5:27 PM   
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What I have a hard time understanding is how people who claim to have such faith in God, act just the opposite. It is supposed to be up to God to render judgement unto those who trespass against His laws, yet none of these zealots and their followers seem content to let the Almight do his/her/its job. Jeez. Talk about a crisis of faith.

If one truly believes in God's judgement, well then for (St.) Pete's sake, git outta da way and let him do his job and you be doin' your job (being good and not killin' and stuff). What confounds me is that people just don't actually TRUST the God they worship to render judgement. It's like ascribing responsibility to someone, then just pushing them aside and doing it yourself. If one has faith in God as the Almighty, well then, he/she/it can take care of it just fine, thank you.

So, please! All of you kooky zealots out there reading this, please don't clease the world of sinners and kill in his name unless he asks you to. I guess that's the problem right there: they are actually under the belief that God is OUT-SOURCING JUDGEMENT. Wow!

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» Excellent! Posted by: Beck

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Prepare the HOLY KOOLAID
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Apr 10, 2007 6:00 PM   
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Let these Super Christian's drink deep of Rev. Jim's special Holy Koolaid that is liberally laced with Rat Poison. Let them be on their way to their own personally defined Heaven. You know the place the rest of us with only one baptisim to our credit will never see. The heaven where the tele-evangelists will have your money waiting for you when you arrive! This is similar to the Islam Heaven but without any virgins. So drink deep and long all your Evangelist christians, don't worry about what Jesus would do because you left that flock long ago and follow your earthly tele-masters. Drink deep and enjoy the trip!

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Ignoramousness is bliss
Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 10, 2007 6:20 PM   
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You never heard that "fighting there instead of fighting here" until the Bush lies about Iraq fell through. M-F-ing sheep.

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» RE: Ignoramousness is bliss Posted by: morticia

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Pet peeves
Posted by: Intransit on Apr 10, 2007 6:53 PM   
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Two things that annoy me are right wingers and liberals. For example the Bush admin. and their liberal attitude towards the environment.

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the three monotheisms
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Apr 10, 2007 7:23 PM   
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Joseph Campbell addressed this issue years ago--the three main monotheistic religions (the desert religions) which equate history with mythology, harbor the eye for eye kind of world view and cannot tolerate other faiths coexisting is the foundation of all that is wrong with the modern (and subsequent to their founding) worldview.

Joseph Campbell called Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism the Perennial faiths because of their (comparative) tolerance for different thinking, and their ability to distinguish humankind's quest for spirituality with historical occurances. I'll take the later any day.

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time is relative
Posted by: solrev on Apr 10, 2007 7:29 PM   
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There is a Trinity Judaism, Christianity, and Islam on earth as it is in heaven. You are rational beings look at the numbers as the Trinity goes so goes the planet. The question is, are we going to destroy the planet or not. You may look around and say if you followed my advice; it is easy to save the planet. However, you would just be a voice crying in the wilderness. Radical Christians; sucking Brother Jones joy juice, or living with Jesus in Waco, or hopping a comet to heaven or a Muslim suicide bomber, make a lot of noise but they are irrelevant. Look at the numbers. Apocalyptic prophecies abound within the Trinity. This is where the powers that the people this article talks about come from. Do not underestimate the power of the master deceiver. If the master deceiver could tempt Eve in the garden of God, a few false profits are easy to make. God said if the prophecies of the prophet do not come to pass, the profit does not speak the word of God. If you underestimate the power of God, it seems like a catch 22. Nevertheless, you do not believe any of this mumbo jumbo. You are just a voice crying in the wilderness an innocent bystander. Evolution cannot save your life. In the natural world if an organism changes the ecosystem to the point that the organism is no longer best suited to survive in the ecosystem the organism dies. Evolution cares not for which organism survives. Use your rational mind to search
the literature, find a prophet who speaks the truth to you and be that voice. The alternative is you can just stand by and be a voice crying in the wilderness and watch what we do. Use your rational mind and predict the future who knows the prophet that saves the planet may be among you. Look at the numbers it is to late to start over.

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» RE: time is relative Posted by: antu

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Kill all the religious people. They are obviously unintelligent and they cause all the wars.
Posted by: Mojoe on Apr 10, 2007 7:46 PM   
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Enough said. Kill 'em all.

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God my ass. God has nothing to do with any of the Porblems...
Posted by: common intelligence on Apr 10, 2007 10:07 PM   
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Evangelists , Popes, priests, Padres, Sheiks, shakes, Mohammed, Allah, politicians. They all make the sermon then pass the pan for CASH!

Followers, believers, the delusionary... everyone seems to be looking out side their own hearts for GOD.

Each one of you is a direct desendant, the literal blood of God. Yet most all "feel'" alienated from God as if "He" is somewhere else or "not" in your presents.

Suicidal bombers to a suicidal society here in the USA you all deny God and ask out side your selves for the
"Answer".

If anyone thinks God cares or doesn't, it's only yo whom does or doesn't. If you want the "end" you have but to end it. It will be done! You of little faith, look in the mirror of your heart. Listen not to the whiners and debaters of JC or GW! JC already died. So you have free choice to be as God or separate. What'll it be?

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» RE: funny quote Posted by: solrev

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Fanatics are fanatics, but the clergy and politicians are worse
Posted by: wisegalah on Apr 11, 2007 5:45 AM   
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There is no difference between the fanatics or the christian right, or fanatics of the zionist/jewish settler groups, or fanatics of any islamic sect, sendero luminoso, the IRA, zanu-pf or supporters of dear leader.
They are all exactly the same type of people with the same problem.
Fundamentally they are cowards, too afraid to ask what the real situation may be. They want to blame anyone else for their pain and difficulty and will punish those whom they imagine to be in any way responsible for their condition. In their pain, confusion and silliness they follow anyone who claims to have an answer. Many even follow someone as stupid as plainly dishonest as that little shit of an American president.
I do have some time for those who live out the twisted logic of their lives at some risk to themselves.
I reserve my deepest contempt and loathing for the priests, rabbis, mullahs and politicians who foster the differences, encourage violence, always of course from a safe place, and then profit from their lies and their cynical use of those disposable, easily-lead others.

Wisegalah in Sydney.

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I AM CURIOUS??? ARE THERE ANY PEOPLE OF FAITH ON ALTERNET?
Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 11, 2007 7:36 AM   
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It seems that the most popular subjects are when the topic is some sort of attack on people of faith. Are there any people of faith of ANY religion, not just Christianity, out there? Or is thgis a "hangout" for people who hate religion?

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» ARE THERE ANY PEOPLE OF FAITH ON ALTERNET? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Oh, come on. You're not reading. Posted by: poppop_schell
» self destuctive nature?? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: self destuctive nature?? Posted by: poppop_schell

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give me a break
Posted by: The Big Raven on Apr 11, 2007 9:43 AM   
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Burn your bibles for no where does it state that W.A.S.P.s are allowed to kill off the ORIGINAL peoples and STEAL thier lands in the name of jusus.
Burn your churches for the resources that they hoard while people starve or worst murdered by your cursading warriors is the REAL SIN.
I have read ALL the major books about the world religions and none ring ANY TRUTH and that is the truth!

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» RE: give me a break Posted by: djnoll
» RE: give me a break Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: give me a break Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: give me a break Posted by: OhioPatriot

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just really sad
Posted by: craftne on Apr 11, 2007 11:33 AM   
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We are largely taught by our Western society to be made happy or sad or angry by things outside of us, and are not taught the way to have happiness from the inside that is not shaken by people, events and situations. We are totally attached to outcomes to provide us with pleasure. Trouble is, what makes you happy can cause you pain, because you become dependent on those things for your happiness - a good job, a loving partner, tasty food, beautiful surroundings, a great car.

It saddens me that these fundamental extreme Christian groups talk about how evil the rest of the world is compared to them, and they point fingers and call names and are angry and even violent. It's an "okay to hurt my neighbor" mentality.

These fundamental and judgmental groups are a grave concern, in that scared and traumatised and suffering people can be manipulated into believing things, such as the best will come after death, which absolves them of any responsibility for breaking negative behaviour patterns and habits that lead to problems and misery in this lifetime.

That is very sad, for two reasons. Firstly, these factions do not bring people together, but pull them apart. Splintered, we can not grow and develop as human beings. Secondly, people are not living for right now, working on themselves to find lasting happiness and security IN THIS LIFETIME.

What those two things accomplish is that it creates more suffering, more problems on the planet right now.

To solve problems and suffering, a person must understand his/her own mind and understand others with EQUINIMITY. Only through compassion and understanding can we reach this goal.

And what's very sad is that when these people die, they will die with all their negative habits, all their negative emotions, and they will return to work on them again.

And that's a wasted life. Except for the fact that they taught me how NOT to be.

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An unwarranted fear of Christianity prevails here.
Posted by: OhioPatriot on Apr 11, 2007 2:38 PM   
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Once again, For the 5th or 6th time in the last month alternet has chose to submit an article condeming Christianity. This has gotten to be a weekly subject.

The spew is always the same. "We all must fear and fight the religious christian right". It is so much bullshit it makes me sick.

The ONLY REASON these article find thier way here is POLITICS, and you would have to be a fool not to see that.

The Christian right in this country helps to work against key issues like Abortion, Gay Marriage, Euthanasia laws, legalized narcotics, and the list goes on. It is thier right to be a part of these movements and to advance policies that they believe are for the betterment of future generation.

Obviously they are opposed by the far left in policy, the far left has to constantly reaffirm its stance on abortion due to continued challenges in the courts, gay marriage has failed on the vast majority of state ballots that it has appeared, euthanasia laws are opposed bitterly, and the war on drugs is in direct conflict to legalization of narcotics.

So its easy to say that since the Christians and thier bible are against all these things then they must be the driving force behind the opposition. and there lies the fundamental mistake. The Christian right is a very small slice of a large piece of the population (the majority) that see these as not matters of moral values but rather tradional values.

The fact that many of these key issues coincide with religious beliefs is a nonfactor but to two groups, the far right that spreads its feathers as if its proof that the nation is predominately filled with devout Christians, and the far left whom evidently believe them and are terrified.

So we get another sickening and blatantly bias article that almost poeticly dehumanizes the Christians through vague inuendu and unsubstantiated stories with a side order of fearfull hatred.

Folks, this does nothing to ensure constuctive dialogue about ISSUES. It only serves to entice hatred and widen the chasm between the people who are nearer center of the road on these issues. the hatred is evident in these hate strewn posts

I hope there is one person out there who can see what I see.

I am sure there are many who don't.

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» Hardly Posted by: Graeme

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What???
Posted by: dayahka on Apr 11, 2007 3:53 PM   
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You say "As a result, the fearful are hoping for the end." You also say that the radical religious right has no religious legitimacy. What utter nonsense!

The hoping for the end is not the effect of the "causes" you mention; it's exactly the opposite: hoping for the end is a key ingredient of fundamentalistic and evangelistic Christianity, it is their foundation...And having no religious legitimacy? Again, utter nonsense...The radical Christian right is mainstream, legitimate Christianity. Study, even read, your religious history. That "great" protestant originator was a rabid anti-semite (and anti-Moslem); Calvin makes Stalin out to be a saint; these guys are normal, standard, within the so-called rightwing of Protestant Christianity.

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I wonder...
Posted by: opeluboy on Apr 11, 2007 6:59 PM   
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...if we'll ever see an article here about the evils done in the name of Judaism. Or Hinduism. Or Buddhism.

This is not to say these insane right-wing Christianists don't have it coming to them, but how about just a tad of parity, folks?

And by the way, you're arming the right. They don't need the help.

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» RE: I wonder... Posted by: craftne
» RE: I wonder... Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I wonder... Posted by: craftne
» RE: I wonder... Posted by: opeluboy

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acers
Posted by: acers on Apr 11, 2007 9:09 PM   
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I find it scary or ironic that this church is just a few miles from Dearborn, MI, which is the home to one of the largest Iraqi enclaves in the US. Perhaps this proximity feeds the fear these poor people feel. My family still lives in the Detroit area and the last visit was a real eyeopener; I have never seen Michigan look as poor and decrepit. I know a Pentecostal pastor and his family(actually a cousin of my husband). They have spewed this same rhetoric to me and my family, unasked and unwelcomed. It's not just in Detroit, it's endemic in this country. When people feel helpless and endangered they do turn to this sort of thing. I believe I've seen comments elsewhere that this sort of religious fatalism is cyclical, hopefully that is true and the cycle will wind down if we can just get some stability to the economy and the world. Thanks for a good article.

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ALTERNET FOLLOWS THE PRACTICES OF DON IMUS?
Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 12, 2007 7:12 AM   
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Bigotry and Hate speech come in many forms, not just racial. Christianity ids a legitimate topic but not one to be slurred and attacked like Don Imus has done to black women. I find that Don Imus is alive and practiced very well by many folks on AlterNet. Certainly disgreement and dialogue are healthy. But to constsntly attack, mock, and belittle Christians who take stands on social issues different from yours is NOT the sign of tolerance that is a strong point of being a Progressive.

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to those who think this site attacks religion
Posted by: Beck on Apr 13, 2007 6:42 AM   
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I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If indeed over time, a number of more-or-less liberal people have discovered this website and feel free here to state what they see as a huge religious and moral dilemna in American, that is, people in charge who seem to be gaining more power in more spheres as time goes on, yet also seem self-serving and hypocritical and often even evil, why would this be? This website didn't spring out of thin air, and the people posting here didn't arrive en masse. Isn't is possible that the blantantly, obnoxiously religious in America are the failures, not the posters here? It seems to me that your concern should not be what you're reading here, because that is in a certain sense of symtom of what inevitably happens when religion gains power and the religiously powerful turn out to be hypocrites. I doubt very seriously if anyone who is an atheist arrived at that stand lightly. I assume they've seen enough to justify their stance, and that they've never heard of any version of God worth believing in, especially in Bush's America. I don't blame a single one of them. I think THEY are hated and judged, and they are sick of it, and what you read is a reflection of that, of their years of experience; it's a response to being constantly judged, not the first attack in this war. I'm thinking that people see liberals as very powerful and frightening. It's the only way I can reconcile seeing the responses here, to an article on religious power, hypocrisy, arrogance, and hostility, as power in and of themselves. These are responses, and atheists and liberal Christians are wielding no power in this land, making no big decisions for all of America, starting no wars, controlling no corporations (the new fourth branch of government), yet we're seen as powerful. Amazing.

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Alternet and religion
Posted by: lindalee on Apr 13, 2007 7:49 AM   
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I've been reading Alternet for a long time now and not once have I gotten the impression that articles here are anti-Christian. Nor does it make sense that liberals are anti-Christian. Just about everyone I know does NOT equate their faith with their politics. LaHaye is preaching hate and fear and that's about it. We should, liberal and conservative alike, be condemning this particular religion. I say this because these people seem to have a religion of their own - they just call it "Christian."
A parting note to the conservative trolls out there - you are all just a little ridiculous and some of your posts are just amazingly ignorant. I may not totally agree with every liberal post on here, but I have never agreed with any conservative post.

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» RE: Alternet and religion Posted by: poppop_schell

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What Ex-Mormons Say About The Mormon Church
Posted by: thirdmg on Apr 13, 2007 8:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since poppup_schell repeatedly attempts to use AlterNet readers as a captive audience for his Mormon missionary efforts, it's only fair that readers should be offered opposing views from ex-Mormons:

Recovery from Mormonism - Dissenters from the Mormon religion provide alternate viewpoints and social support: "...for those who are questioning their faith in the Mormon Church and for those who need support as they transition their lives to a normal life."

* * *

And for the Christian conservative visitors at AlterNet who might imagine that they have found a kindred spirit in poppup_schell and his conservative views, you might want to read views from born-again Christians who used to be Mormons but now oppose the teachings:

Utah Lighthouse Ministry - Quotes from the site:

"The purpose of this site is to document problems with the claims of Mormonism and compare LDS doctrines with Christianity."

"Many Mormons will stand up in testimony meeting and dogmatically assert that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that they belong to 'the only true church,' but very few of them check to make sure that their faith is based on reality. Many members of the Mormon church prefer to let their leaders do their thinking ("when our leaders speak, the thinking has been done"); it is so easy to let someone else do our thinking." - The Changing World of Mormonism

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» bitter? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: bitter? Posted by: thirdmg
» google Posted by: fork
» RE: google Posted by: poppop_schell

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A Repsonse
Posted by: Collinb on Apr 14, 2007 2:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Located Here: http://tinyurl.com/2ma5jq

Enjoy.

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This article isn't truthful
Posted by: VeryBlessed on Apr 14, 2007 8:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I’m pretty sure this is not going to be a very welcome comment to many if not most people here, but it is my personal response to this article. I’m a born-again Christian who for most of my life was a liberal Christian and politically liberal. Articles like this one (basically those written from a liberal perspective) don’t truthfully portray Christianity, which is still to Christians about the Gospel message of Jesus Christ - that all human beings are sinners, not just some people, and we can only be saved from eternal punishment and reconciled to God through believing in His Son. Accepting that you are a sinner who is accountable to God for what you do in life is true personal accountability, and that is still one of the most important beliefs held by Christians and their churches, and by the grace of God I also came to believe that. I also found that what I’d been taught by the world I grew up in wasn’t the truth, as real and convincing as the pictures of things I’d been given had always seemed. Now I understand that I’ve been set free from what I always thought was “truth” but what was really slavery and captivity. No longer believing many things I used to believe wasn’t merely an ending, but a beginning. As Jesus said, He is “the way, the truth, and the life,” and as He told Pilate, “For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice” (John 18:7). The freedom Jesus brings is available to anyone and everyone willing to receive it. And He doesn’t leave those who believe in Him to stumble around by themselves, but promises to be their teacher: “Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).

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Arm the Hippies
Posted by: CombatJourno on Apr 15, 2007 8:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I can't for the life of me understand is why, with these sorts of people preaching the kinds of things they are preaching, the Democrats seem hell bent in disarming the very people who would fall victim to their Christi-Apocalyptic dreams.....you and me. Pesky Progressives.

Cause don't believe for one moment that any law passed by "The forces of Satan" is going to be obeyed for one moment by these people. And that means they've got a monopoly of force.

Yet what do we get from the Democratic Congress right out of the gate, more sweeping gun control measures that will only disarm the reasonable, law abiding.

Chris, you and I have seen what went down in Jugo. We saw what happened when those Serbian fanatics in their wrap around sunglasses rolled into those essentially unarmed Bosnian villages with the contents of a national guard armory in their trunks...

We also saw what happened when the Bosnians had a few guns of their own...Serbs stopped. Was it pretty, no. But it wasn't the "All sides are equally guilty" we get from the Serbian apologists either. There's music in Sarajevo still.

Which brings me back to my salient point...why on earth would the very targets of these sorts of fanatics willingly surrender the right to bear arms? Cause that's what that pesky 2nd ammendment is really about...resisting those who would oppress with the one thing that uniformly gets the attention of people like that...imminent use of defensive force.

It forces dogma to the back and reality based descisions to the fore when presented with someone possed of the capacity to resist in kind. Reality check...

Hard to bring that sort of dynamic into play when all you've got to bring to the equation is words that will be ignored, pleas that will be laughed at and maybe a handful of granola to throw.

Are you worried about these kind of fanatics? You need to be. They have a habit of rearing up out of the possible and into the realm of the at your door with alarming regularity throughout history. Who paid any mind when Hitler was delivering his ravings to a bunch of low bred drunks in the beer halls of Munich? Nobody. But boy did he get everyone's attention when social and economic factors combined to bring his vision to reality. (and a very precarious social and economic reality is with us as we speak...)

So, again, why the talk on the one hand about fanatics who obviously aren't going to listen to reason, and legislated helplessness in the same breath? It defies logic.

Are you worried about these kinds of people? Well, history has shown that they don't do real well when push comes to shove against people who will not be walked over.

The only way to ensure that the fanatic stays in the realm of hot air and sand punding over the long run is to ensure that rational, responsible people like us ALWAYS have the means to resist the demagouge.

Try to take down a swarm of Armed hippies, Fags, Dykes, muscians, artists, craftsmen, organics and other assorted progressives with their back to a concentration camp wall and watch what happens. You'd better pack a lunch, there, Rapture Krew.

That's why the Jim Crow south outlawed gun ownership by blacks. That's why Hitler outlawed gun ownership by jews. That's why it was illegal to sell repeaters to Indians.

That's what YOUR right to bear arms is all about. 24-7 deterent against demagouges who by hook, crook or accident of history get a leg up over the rest of us.

Progressives beware...you are in the crosshairs. Don't legislate away the only means you may have in the end to do something about it. You don't have to fear these people...

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» RE: Arm the Hippies Posted by: CombatJourno
» RE: Arm the Hippies Posted by: CombatJourno

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Surrender
Posted by: surrendered on Apr 16, 2007 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it possible that people can have a real and conscious relationship to God Almighty and to Mother Earth without belonging to any form of organized religion.

Is it possible that many of us naturally demonstrate in our lives the teaching of Jesus. And other "prophets" that have clearly delivered thier message of Love and forgiveness as a way of Being?

The Bible was written hundreds of years AFTER Jesus was crucified. And altered by the Nicsean Council so as to maintain control of the masses. Jesus was a son of God who demonstrated the Power of God that exists in each and every creation. The Christ Consciouness is to know you are not separate from God and that we are all created as perfection in the eyes of God.

If you were taught from childhood that you are a "sinner" and inherently evil unless you adopt the doctrines of a religion that preaches Paradise but delivers Hell, maybe you would be somewhat insane.

If Christianity taught that we all have the Power of God within us at all times, there would be no need to attend religious meetings and put your dollars in the basket that goes to a church who's agenda is to allienate and judge those who do not beleive in your god.
God Almighty, the Creator of All that Exists, including good and evil, Simply ALL; does not Create imperfectly.

All conflicting philosophies which promote a Way of Being are equally the Creation and Will of God Almighty: Nazism to Judaism; Mormonism to Catholicism; Buddhism to Baptism; Nietzche to Marx; Christ to Hitler. All points of view are necessary, and the Perfect Will of God and His Remarkable Plan for the Salvation of Mankind. Men have believed most earnestly in all these points of view. It should be obvious by now, at least to some of you, that belief is of very little consequence to Salvation.

One observes the more religious brethern ever more loudly attacking some aspect of God's Creation.

The only function of religion is to provide you with a comfortable step, or point of view, from which you can examine you relationship with God. And remember this, you must forgive those who do not fit into your religion, or there will be no Salvation for you in this lifetime...............

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No Buddhist war?
Posted by: opeluboy on Apr 16, 2007 6:55 PM   
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This is the exact response I expected from Western students of Buddhism. You seem to forget about Japan.

Here's 3 quotes for you:

‘If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment. The unity of Zen and war ... extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war now under way.’ (Zen Master Harada Daiun Sogaku – 1939).

‘Warriors who sacrifice their lives for the emperor will not die. They will live forever. Truly they should be called gods and Buddhas for whom there is no life or death. Where there is absolute loyalty there is no life or death.’ (Lieutenant Colonel Sugimoto Goro)

‘Since the Meiji period, our (Soto Zen) sect has cooperated in waging war.’ (Soto Zen Statement of Repentance – 1992).

I suggest reading Zen at War and maybe the Rape of Nanking to rid yourselves of the myth that all those that practice Buddhism are peaceful.

Know what you're talking about before you respond next time.

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» RE: No Buddhist war? Posted by: craftne
» RE: No Buddhist war? Posted by: opeluboy

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Well what do you expect from religious fanatics?
Posted by: mantra77 on Apr 16, 2007 7:39 PM   
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Take, for example, another pack of religious freakazoids: PeeCee fundamentalists and their idiotic pseudo aztec religion -

Political Correctness is a religion, i.e. a structured belief system based on faith. A religion need not have a god, although Political Correctness appears to have one. Its god is Hitler, an altogether evil god that is despised by its followers. In this respect Political Correctness is similar to the Aztec religions whose evil gods had to be appeased with constant human sacrifice. The evil god Hitler needs to be kept at bay with constant discrimination against whites.

The doctrine of Political Correctness measures everything against this god, the evil Adolf Hitler. In this religion, everything that Hitler believed in is evil, and everything that he opposed is good. This belief system condenses to two doctrines:

* Non-white minorities are to be worshipped in the morning
* The white majority is to be degraded in the evening

And is based on this one cardinal faith:

Whites are oppressors; therefore whites deserve discrimination and racism to redress the imbalance.

This faith is in turn sustained and legitimised by three anti-white racial theories:

1. The Unique History of White Evil theory
2. The Unearned White Skin-color Privilege theory
3. The White Majority Deference theory

The Unique History of White Evil Theory

This racial theory holds that "whites cannot evade history". It is a racial theory because it justifies discrimination against a group based on their (Euro-Christian) ancestry alone irrespective of actual participation or consent (in slavery, holocaust, etc.) and therefore denies innocence as a defense.

The Unearned White Skin-color Privilege Theory

This racial theory holds that "whites cannot evade responsibility". It is a racial theory because it justifies discrimination against individuals based on their (Euro-Christian) ancestry alone irrespective of actual status or financial condition and therefore denies innocence as a defense.

The White Majority Deference Theory

This racial theory holds that "majorities must serve minorities unless the minority is white". It is a racial theory because its discriminatory logic applies exclusively to whites. For example, suggesting the reverse, that white minorities in South Africa or Detroit should have not equal but superior rights is widely considered insane.

And to keep their evil god Adolf Hitler at bay these religious freakazoids believe they have to keep calling for more and more racist affrimative action to sacrifice my children's future.

Why? Because The Evil God Adolf Hitler must be kept at bay! Sacrifice! Sacrifice! Lest he ARISE and BLOT OUT THE SUN!! and stomp cars with his feet! And gas Jews with his farts!!

And don't you dare violate the Great Sacred Truth,

“If you go against your group interests while black you’re an uncle tom, if you do so while white you’re open-minded. Amen. If you express group interests while black you’re standing up for your people, if you do so while white you’re racist. Amen.”

Bob’s Riddle

“All anti-white racists agree that it’s ok for whites to become minorities in their own countries. All anti-white racists also agree that a Japanese person who wants to become a minority in his own country is either a traitor or clinically insane. Therefore, what is an anti-white racist?”
Answer: http://mantra7777.blogspot.com

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Gee I did not know that...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Apr 17, 2007 12:43 PM   
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...the Shrub, Cheney, et al were liberals.

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What elitist pigs Progressives can be.
Posted by: Staggo on Apr 17, 2007 10:04 PM   
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You start this article with such incredible disdain for the Common Person. As a person who is far left of center, I still find your article obnoxious. These things you laugh at so smugly often represent a small business-person's drive to make a decent life. No, I am not talking Walmart. I'm talking about the lowly jobs some of us take, because we lack education and familial wealth. I am talking about the schmuck who thinks his/her dreams just might be fulfilled by opening an independent cheap motel or a cheap auto shop that gives good service. Not every lower-class human is throw-away trash who blindly supports the End-Of-Days churches. While I believe the Dems. will win the WH in 2008, I have little doubt that only the cream of the crap will benefit.

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Not Delusional
Posted by: TruthBeTold on Apr 19, 2007 7:32 AM   
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Ohio Patriot: You are just as delusional as the people who follow LaHaye, Jenkins, Falwell and Robertson. This article is not condemning Christianity. I could care less that the end-timers want to advance policies that they believe are for the betterment of future generations. They CAN'T EVEN THINK FOR THEMSELVES, HOW CAN THEY THINK UP A POLICY THAT WILL BENEFIT FUTURE GENERATIONS????? Left yp to these people, there would still be slavery in this country. Their policies WILL NOT be forced upon me and mine. This is something that people like you are intellectually incapable of grasping.

If these people were concerned about the betterment of future generation, why don't they spend their time trying to eliminate hunger in this country and across the world?

Why don't they spend their time Woking to ensure that people with serious medical conditions and no insurance get the care that they need?

That the elderly don't have to choose between life saving medication and food?

Why don't they spend their time working for groups like Habitat for Humanity or the local homeless shelter?

Why don't they spend their time helping cancer patients, cleaning up their neighborhoods, helping poor people in improvised countries learn farming and irrigation methods, or helping wounded and disabled soldiers languishing in hospital?

Better yet, why don't they spend their time trying to educate themselves and their children to become independent thinkers and stop following the LaHays like blind sheep?

Ohio Patriot, surely you don't think that these people represent all Christians? They don't represent me. People who are capable of intelligent though know that Christians come in all stripes and colors and denominations.

And by the way, do you really think that LaHay and Jenkins, who have made millions on the nonsense they call books, believe in the end times for themselves? What, are they going to take their millions with them to live in luxury in heaven.

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» RE: Not Delusional from oh patriot Posted by: OhioPatriot
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THANK YOU
Posted by: wawa on Apr 10, 2007 7:13 AM   
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The fastest growing cult in the USA is the cult of neo-christian zionism;

Which is politically driven and inherently anti-Semitic theology based on FEAR;

FEAR is how totalitarian regimes manipulate and control the people.

The gospel/good news JC preached was:

"FEAR NOT! You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free."

JC was into liberation-NOT control.

JC was never a Christian-he was born, lived and died under OCCUPATION.

JC was a social justice radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who ROSE UP and challenged the job security of the Temple by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the high priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God,

God loved them just as they were;

Diseased, outcasts, sinners, widows, orphans, refugees, prisoners, all enduring under Roman occupation.

There are many Christian voices challenging the likes of Hagee, Lindsay, Robertson, Fawell,


To name but 3

www.sabeel.org

http://www.sizers.org/

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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fanatic fantasy not noble sentiment
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Apr 10, 2007 7:15 AM   
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The one line I take issue to is that this sort of cleansing through violence appeals to anyone's "noble sentiments". Read : Skipping towards Armageddon" for a look behind the multi-multi million empire that Tim LaHaye and Jenkins have built for themselves.

It breaks my heart that this is a large trend of Christianity. That more than one patron has come to me in the library and asked for these books, because "people don't read the bible you know"--I say they are in FICTION but of course they don't get it. They take the books out by the armload.

They can't burn themselves out fast enough...they are the ones who are bringing on their self fulfilling "prophesy" and they are the scariest people around.

One of the bumper stickers on my car says "In case of Rapture I'm taking your car"...hope it's a BMW

All this got it's start in the mid 1800's among other fanatic, oddball religious bunk. I'll take secular humanism, Taoism and UU any day. And send out my intentions to the Universe that these scary souls go by the wayside quickly.

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wormfood
Posted by: P3K on Apr 10, 2007 7:22 AM   
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I would rather my soul be food for the worms then spend one second of eternity in a heaven with these people. I like your Christ but I don't much care for your Christians.

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Nothing To Do With Jesus Christ
Posted by: ZPaul on Apr 10, 2007 7:25 AM   
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What these people are selling has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ. As a Christian, and as a human being, with every fibre of my being, I reject this obscene, hate-filled, insanity.

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» Add me to the list. Posted by: Sojourner
» i applaud your rejection... Posted by: brasilaron

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The world run by "liberals"?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 10, 2007 7:33 AM   
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Wow.. talk about swallowing propaganda without questioning at all.

So... even when they controlled all three houses until last november... the nation was still being run by liberals?

Thats right up there with their religious majority is being persecuted.

These people are utterly dellusional.

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PseudoLeft preaches conservative evil
Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties on Apr 10, 2007 7:36 AM   
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and the PseudoLeft and the Right collaborate to force the same social wedge issues to the forefront of the political debate, much to the glee of the upper class, who then do not have to pay progressive income taxes and who enjoy more power over the working class.

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Teach your children well
Posted by: reval on Apr 10, 2007 7:37 AM   
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Help them to identify madness when it's staring them in the face. Give them the tools they need to resist superstition, myth, fabel, hearsay and mysticism.

Insist that they arm themselves daily against the forces of madness.

WVCSR

Rev. El Mundo

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» RE: Teach your children well Posted by: CombatJourno

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Not Christian Teaching
Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 10, 2007 7:37 AM   
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The values these fear and hate mongers represent as Christian are no more in-line with the teachings of Jesus than those of George W. Bush represent those of the environmental movement. These types are users- trading upon the fears and desperation of people without hope, unsure of the future, and generally poorly informed about the world around them.

Timothy LaHaye is a scam artist who should know better. The whole concept of 'Christian Fiction' is antithetical to faith in general and Christianity in particular. The message of the Christian faith is a claim to a universal truth that God has called all people to be reconciled to peace, grace, love, mercy, charity, and hope- that a cold, hard, selfish, greedy, violent and merciless world is not our only option. A teaching that each and every person is our brother and sister and that we are responsible for them- not just ourselves. A message of hope- not fear.

Jesus never charged admission nor did he sell anything. LaHaye and his ilk sell everything.

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This is what results
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 10, 2007 7:43 AM   
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when people are stripped of dignity and opportunity. Blaming them only furthers the cycle of alienation, despair, and then rage.

We as a nation have allowed the conditions that promote apocalypticism to gain strength. We should blame ourselves collectively.

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Remember Diderot's wisdom
Posted by: reval on Apr 10, 2007 7:43 AM   
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Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

WVCSR

Rev. El Mundo

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Still, if desperate people need an outlet for expressing faith in the ultimate - if unnoticeable -
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 10, 2007 7:48 AM   
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stability of their existence, and with this a grand vision of righteous justice and vengeance against the horrors of their lives and the people causing these, they should adopt Marxism and unify around this belief system.

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I'd like to see this given wider attention.
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Apr 10, 2007 7:51 AM   
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"The radical Christian right has no religious legitimacy. It is a mass political movement."

Excellent point, right on target, and too often ignored.

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And who is to blame....
Posted by: cmaukonen on Apr 10, 2007 8:10 AM   
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The plagues of alcoholism, divorce, drug abuse, poverty and domestic violence make the internal life here as depressing as the external one. And those gathering today in this church wait for the final, welcome relief of the purgative of violence, the vast, bloody cleansing that will lift them up into the heavens and leave the world they despise -- the one that was devastated by corporatism -- to be racked by plagues and flood and fire until it and all those whom they blame for the debacle of their lives are consumed and destroyed by God. It is a theology of despair. And for many, it can't happen soon enough.

These very people are the ones who have supported and previously benefited from these very things they now despise.

And so it goes.

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» RE: And who is to blame.... Posted by: craftne

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frank67
Posted by: frank67 on Apr 10, 2007 8:11 AM   
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Nuts, wherever they "preach," are still NUTS!

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These leaders are channeling the rage of these oppressed souls
Posted by: zyxwvut on Apr 10, 2007 8:13 AM   
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away from its proper target: the elites, corporate and political.

All legitimacy is assumed by groups, whether they are corporate groups herding us over the cliff of globalization or religious groups that give popular vent to corporate-generated despair through faith in the Christian utopia. In this paradigm -- corporate and religious -- we become disempowered, afraid, passive and easily manipulated.

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John A. Broussard
Posted by: jurgen on Apr 10, 2007 8:22 AM   
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What's most fascinating is how both Christianity and Islam have spawned these hate groups, which have two major features in common: they believe in one god; they believe in the violent destruction of those who don't share their specific views about that god.

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» RE: John A. Broussard Posted by: outsideagitator

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How do we make progress with them?
Posted by: juanpecan81 on Apr 10, 2007 8:29 AM   
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If defining characteristics of leftism is inclusiveness and compassion then how do we bring these ppl into the fold?

You can't force awareness or critique on people, but the first step is to still recognize them as people and equals. They've been deluded by the empty promises of imperialism/capitalism and they look to the strong daddy to provide answers. Common (universal?) problem with unique expressions.

These people are probably lonely, isolated and have an unplaceable anger (also sounds familiar). They probably feel robbed: deprived of something owed to them.

They are products of a social order that teaches a blind obediance to authority (as opposed to a productive discourse on how authority/social standards need to be adjusted to reach a workable human balance). A preacher placing a name, any name, and directing that anger anywhere is welcome...especially when playing on our natural ingroup/outgroup tendencies.

So where do we go? I'd like to hear yr thoughts.
2 thoughts for the discussion:

"To contract something, you must first let it expand" - Tao te Ching

"We win justice quickest by rendering justice to the other party" - Gandhi (what is justice? the absence of negative influence/control?)

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» with them? I doubt it. Posted by: counterpoint
» Use Microsoft tactics Posted by: Dboy

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Cult of Obedience - Collective Insanity
Posted by: Aimee on Apr 10, 2007 8:31 AM   
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Thank God these people are out numbered by the rest of us. They are followers of the Cult of Obedience. Collective Insanity. Pretty scary ... ignorance is dangerous. And who are they following? Their church leaders and g. w. bush.

Aimee
DataOptions.com

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Christianism...
Posted by: catnapping on Apr 10, 2007 8:35 AM   
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like the other monotheists...all about heirarchy - all about control.

As a native american who is NOT christianist, I dare not tell people here in the corporeal world that I am pagan. I have seen christianists turn on a DIME when they found out someone they LIKED and respected was pagan.

There is no freedom of religion in this country. Not until people like me can practice our faith in the open. But as long as christianists get to demonize us...we're at risk...they'd send us to the ovens, given half the chance. (it won't stop with the Muslims).

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» RE: Christianism... Posted by: brainvib
» RE: Christianism... Posted by: catnapping

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Not so Right
Posted by: Gisele on Apr 10, 2007 8:38 AM   
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I've been asked how I maintain my faith in "days like these,"...my answer is that as days go by, my faith doesn't waiver - it grows stronger because Revelation is proving to be the only source of accurate prophecy (speaking of the Biblical rather than the Christian Right version.)

We've been warned of one-world government, and one-world religion, it will come to pass no matter what we do. It's already well on it's way! Those leading both groups will be misled Christians, or those using the guise of Christianity to do their work. Unfortunately, too many good people have let LaHaye, Hagee, Falwell, Robertson and numerous Popes run away with their faith and their common sense.

Remember that old saying your Mama taught you? "Dance with the one what brung ya"...that means if you're going to call yourself a Christian, be one - DO what He did. Not what the hate mongers in the mega-churches are trying to shove down your throat - and everyone else's. It's well past time for Christians to show respect for other religions whether they're agreed with or not. That means reading your own Bible, not taking a pastor or ministers word for what they think it means - you will find that God has many Sons, but only one "begotten" one. All of those Sons deserve our respect, whether they are Islamic, Buddhist or any other religion.

Finally will someone from the Christian Right please show me where Jesus advocated violence in any form to accomplish His will? You can't...and you know it. So please stop calling yourself "Christian"...you're giving Him and those who truly try follow Him, a bad name.

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Wahabism American Style
Posted by: abqbabe on Apr 10, 2007 8:42 AM   
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Those subscribing to the LeHaye version of "Christian" justice, morality and lust for an apochalypse are eerily similar to the beliefs espoused by the Taliban and the Wahabi extremists. The only real difference is that the Muslim political extremists are already living their apochalyptic wars and attempting to forcefully impose their vision on society by violence.

The same disillusionment, anger, despair, and "highest hopes" contrasted with the desire for revenge against those who have created the ugliness, immorality and inequities of the world, fuel not only the masses of the Christian Right, but Islamic Fundamentalism as well, from suicide bombers to the rigid strictures of Wahabism. It is only a small step for the Christian Right to become the American edition of the Taliban.

Saddest of all is that these two political groups (Christian and Muslim), separated by culture and ignorance, actually want the exact same thing. Instead, their leaders foment ever more misunderstanding and hatred among their followers to enhance their own power.
It is tribalism writ big, with a very earthly agenda of longing for power over those "not us" - the unbelievers - and reward for and vindication of one's own fears and prejudices.

To long for destruction is to long for death: to choose death is to choose Satan. Those seeking the End Times have already forsaken the God they claim to worship, and closed their ears to His message.

Ary

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GO INDIGI!!
Posted by: caru on Apr 10, 2007 8:43 AM   
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i spend some time wondering about the minds of these men who are not christlike ... i am glad you, chris, pointed out that this americacca has created an ugly wastland. the wasteland not a one can connect to as spiritual. this ugly creation -- from the greedy self centered consumers -- can only be destroyed.

i am glad you point out they lack any appreciation for beauty. they consume the land, they do not connect to the beauty of the creation -- turtle island -- we need only tune into the sacred earth and get some real religion -- the beauty of this creation that is us. that is all it takes to be indigi, enjoy the numinous moment and the beauty of the land and water and all the amazing little and large creatures.

chris, can you please write some words of those who have abandoned this apcolaptic way of thinking and have come onto the truth of indigenous living on this planet. the ancient truths in yoga and shamanism. the mystics. jc was a mystic who studied yoga ... we need to provide a path for those locked onto full on destruction ... we need to outline a path of beauty -- including the ancient way of the iroquois -- which our constitution is based on -- including womun ... we need to outline a path which can gingerly bring us back from this crazed mind that these crazed people perpetuate.

may the world be at peace. may we all find our way in peace. blessings and abundance and happiness. GO INDIGI!!!

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How it's gonna end
Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 10, 2007 8:47 AM   
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Apocalypse Soon

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» RE: How it's gonna end Posted by: peaknik35

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The Religious Right is manipulated by corporations.
Posted by: Lincoln fan on Apr 10, 2007 9:09 AM   
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In the Great Depression desparate people were attracted to Communism and Socialism because they recognized that their problems were economic. This was a danger to the rich corporate elite that runs our country and they fought against them. When the economic situation improved, the people abandoned Communism and Socialism but the establishment fought them for 70 years after they were no longer a danger. They spun these economic systems in the public mind into political systems, associated with dictators.

With the option of a different economic system out of peoples' minds the desparate now turn to religion. This poses no danger to the corporate establishment and so it's fostered and turned against the liberal ideas that are a threat to the establishment.

It's easy for we on the left ro see that the religious are being manipulated by the establishment. It's not so easy to see that we are also being manipulated by the same establishment. It is hard to believe because we feel superior to the yahoos, the rednecks, and the Nascar crowd. We're too smart to be manipulated. "Pride goeth before the fall".

The evidence is plain to see. It's public record. Click on Open Secrets The same industries fund both of our political parties.

They don't fund both parties because they want both parties to win. They fund both parties so it doesn't make much difference which party wins. And all along we were convinced that we had the power of the vote. We got all panicky when the election was "stolen" but didn't mind when it was bought.

Feel free to discuss your favorite candidate but be sure that he/she is electable. That means that he/she is acceptable to the corporate establishment.

I even forgot the names of the last bunch of unelectable hopefuls. I only remember that one was too short, one was deranged, one was a clown, and another was a black woman who we weren't "ready for". In other words they were not acceptable to the corporatocracy that controls both parties.

We are in a very dangerous situation. The establishment has split the workong class into two groups that disrespect, despise, and fear each other. Fear is the strongest human emotion; the strongest animal instinct. Will we let the corporatocracy stay in power until we are at war with each other?
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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Mr.
Posted by: Gerald on Apr 10, 2007 9:18 AM   
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The commentary shows that when paranoid people are not surrounded by enemies they will invent them. In the 1950s, 60s, 70s and even into the 80s the Communists provided the threat, even though they were not much a threat to world order. 9/11 provided us with a new perceived forever enemy.

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» RE: Mr. Posted by: albrechtkrausse

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If God is on our side-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 10, 2007 9:18 AM   
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he will stop the next war.

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» RE: If God is on our side- Posted by: brainvib

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Every bit as Christian as Jim Jones' "People's Temple"...
Posted by: xbj on Apr 10, 2007 9:24 AM   
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...and leading to the same exact result... suicide and self-damnation.

Jesus said "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES. BLESS THOSE THAT CURSE YOU."

These pitiful bastards aren't Christians, and woe to them when they realize their god was Lucifer.

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Report a Theft
Posted by: brainvib on Apr 10, 2007 10:01 AM   
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A group of unprincipaled fanatics have stolen a word. The word is, "Christian". The definition of that word, to paraphrase the dictionary, is one who believes in Christ.
Why suddenly have we, the english speaking world, allowed this fanatic cult to steal the label "Christian"?
A common question asked by a bac(born again christian) is
"Are you a Christian"? By my definition and that of Webster
and Funk and Wagnall, YES I AM! But by the bac definition I certainly am not. I want my label back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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» RE: eport a Theft Posted by: xbj
» RE: eport a Theft Posted by: Gisele

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bah, humbug...
Posted by: jessicalh on Apr 10, 2007 10:29 AM   
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Much of this is true, and it's quite well written. But these are not straw men, and the article doesn't help me understand them much. I'd be more interested in how many people in the radical right christianist movement manage to preach doom and brimstone on Sunday, vote for monsters, and interact with a complex, diverse society on weekdays; or why people - who are in many ways just like us - buy into this as completely as they do. I think the article is right on, generally -- but the standard schtick about urban despair and so on is too polemical and narrow to give much insight.

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» read Hedges' book Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: read Hedges' book Posted by: jessicalh
» Flint, Michigan Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: bah, humbug... Posted by: morticia

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Opportunity?
Posted by: Knowmad on Apr 10, 2007 10:39 AM   
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I actually don't blame the adherents so much. Many people are too limited, trusting or lazy to make informed decisions, and these are the fodder of pathetic manipulators like lehay.

Wishful thinking perhaps, but what if progressives could take advantage of these circumstances and inflict some serious damage to these sick enterprises, and have those who benefit exposed for the immoral parasites they are to boot.

If the three most dangerous cabals - the religious right, corporate pimps, and their neocon political whores - could be set against one another somehow (maybe a few smart inside operators, telling 'secrets' to each group about about how the others are going to betray them) they just might all go down in a passionate blaze of putrid self-interest. I don't suggest anyone should actually be hurt, just those responsible reaping what they've sown, and their victims given another chance to chose for themselves.

My own little version of the rapture.

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» RE: Opportunity? Posted by: antu

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Why Don't Christian's Talk about the 10 Commandments
Posted by: leedavis546@msn.com on Apr 10, 2007 10:40 AM   
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The main problem in all the Christian Church's, is the Fact that we rely to much on Priests or Ministers, to tell us how we should live our lives, and when they disappoint us. because Ministers & Priest's are human like us,we turn away from god. what has kept me going, is that I try to follow the Ten Commandment's. no excuses, I try to follow them to the letter, if any religious leader tell's me to Disobey them, I think maybe it's the Devil speaking.

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» Which 10 Commandments? Posted by: counterpoint
» how about just the golden rule Posted by: liberalibrarian
» don't believe it Posted by: counterpoint
» Supernatural Being Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive

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Recommended reading
Posted by: morticia on Apr 10, 2007 10:41 AM   
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WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS--How Conservatives Won the Heart of America, by Thomas Frank, and (coming out in June)
DEER HUNTING WITH JESUS--Dispatches From America's Class War, by Joe Bageant. You'll learn how and why we're in the mess we're in.

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Religious Stupid
Posted by: vertical on Apr 10, 2007 11:12 AM   
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There is going to be an Armageddon because the religious stupid are making it a self fulfilling prophecy.

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» RE:ligious Stupid Posted by: Ellie1
» Religious Automatons Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: eligious Stupid Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: eligious Stupid - no thanks Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: I think it can be done... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal

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They'll bring us all down
Posted by: peaknik35 on Apr 10, 2007 11:54 AM   
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If they achieve their goal of a christian nation, you will not see this nation do anything to slow or stop global warming. The nightmare scenarios of Peak Oil will only be seen as part of Christ's return. My entire family is part of the Assemblies of God church. While they don't continually obsess on the end times, they do buy into all of this. Most of my family own the Left Behind series. While we as progressives see saving our planet as the most rational sane thing any human being could do, the born agains have a very scary "why bother" atitude. They really believe it's all over real soon. When you combine that with the percentages of people who claim to be conservative christian, I think we need to be very wary of these people. Their belief system leaves no room for debate. The bible says to beware false prophets, so trying to engage these people in anything that doesn't fall within their preset thinking just makes them shut down and not listen. At that point, they believe, its just the devil talking to them. They are the majority and this Nation will never steer a course away from disaster because of them.

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» RE: They'll bring us all down Posted by: churchofone
» RE: They'll bring us all down Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: They'll bring us all down Posted by: aussidawg

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The fearful are hoping for an end?
Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 10, 2007 12:03 PM   
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You should change your subject from the fearful to THE STUPID!

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Pray
Posted by: weatherking on Apr 10, 2007 12:27 PM   
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Pity and try to ignore the fools; teach their children to have more sense.

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Great. These are probably my NEIGHBORS
Posted by: churchofone on Apr 10, 2007 12:41 PM   
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I live in the Downriver suburbs of Detroit, about 5 miles away from this church. Which means that there may be some of my neighbors who are congregants. And this is not the only church in the area with this type of gloomy theology.

I do take exception with the author's description: The paint is flaking off the cramped two-story houses that lie in ugly grid patterns off the highway......The plagues of alcoholism, divorce, drug abuse, poverty and domestic violence make the internal life here as depressing as the external one.

It is not all the gloom-and-doom portrayed. I live in what is considered a blue-collar community, and although there are some neglected and vacant homes, most people take care of their homes. My city simply will not tolerate property neglect!

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I WONDER HOW THE PEOPLE IN NOAH'S DAY REACTED TO HIS WARNINGS?
Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 10, 2007 1:11 PM   
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I am NOT part of the evangelical "Left Behind Christian" movement. In fact, many in that movement would consider me a Mormon to be a Satan worshiper.

That said, some of their warnings are on target at least from a Biblical prospective. As I read this "hit piece", I wondered IF a similar type of piece was written in Noah's day? I wonder when the signs leading up to Jesus's 2nd Coming become more and more fullfilled, whether folks on AlterNet will be like those in Noah's day? The signs were there but ignored.

As Christ decends in His glory, all those living a telestial type of life will be burned up at His coming (see D+C 76 for whose these people are (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76), the earth will be transfigured to a terrestrial existence and peace will reign for 1000 years. Fortunately more than 8 people will survive unlike in Noah's day when only eight survived the flood.

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» Ruler of the Universes? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: uler of the Universes? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: uler of the Universes? Posted by: thirdmg
» Change Your Wicked, Wicked Ways! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Change Your Wicked, Wicked Ways! Posted by: poppop_schell
» Well, since the story is a myth... Posted by: doctorsquared
» What part was nonsense? Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: What part was nonsense? Posted by: poppop_schell

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Francis Z / NYC
Posted by: beautykilledbeast on Apr 10, 2007 1:11 PM   
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About a year and a half ago, the analogy of George W. Bush:Caesar Nero was making the e-mailable rounds.

I felt this comparison begged one question: why worry over the commonweal when the End Times are imminent and
it's our responsibility to hurry the End along?

Let me tell you, there are many, many Christians I know who I'd like to see crucified, burned at the stake, fed to the lions, and about in that order.

We should do them the favor and bestow their crowns of martyrdom.

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"Apocalyptic visions like this one..." have what?
Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 10, 2007 1:30 PM   
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If they have inspired all the religious violence, then what have all the secular apocalyses done? So "Matrix" is responsible for what?

I grew up on science fiction. Those who read the New Testament as science fiction are no better and no worse. Except I now see science fiction as a waste of my time. And I see journalism wallowing in the drama of religious science fiction as a similar waste. Be gone, fool.

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our historical treatment of Middle-Eastern peoples
Posted by: amiabledave on Apr 10, 2007 1:34 PM   
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I'd be interested in knowing how the political leaders of our nation valuate human life in the Middle East, especially Arab and Persian life. Are these people just ciphers whose body count need never be invoiced and made public knowledge? How much horror and devastation must we rain upon these peoples before Americans are sickened by our actions?

Although all poor, illiterate, and oppressed people who -- through no fault of their own -- live under conditions of war, privation, and authoritarian rule are subject to fundamentalism and suiciidal tendencies, it does not subtract their humanity.

"Persecution makes proselytes." – Voltaire

How must it look to the world when rag-tag freedom fighters stand atop piles of rubble facing jets, tanks, AND GPS-guided rockets -- the most sophisticated, best-equipped military on the planet -- and are victorious? How can we consider ourselves brave and moral when we go after countries whose suffering peoples lack even the convience of an electric toaster?

We have this history of supporting tyranny whenever it serves our purposes, having recently armed Iraq, Iran, and the Taliban in Afghanistan. We have supported Israel's takeover of Arab land, after denying victims of the Holocaust a refuge in America?

Is there ever a point when Americans cannot forgive themselves for cowardly, self-serving actions?

Is it wise to trade democracy and morality for empire? How can we be happy attacking not an army, but the strategy of religious extremists who have only their chains to lose?

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What book has everyone been reading?
Posted by: whyoung on Apr 10, 2007 1:48 PM   
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Some of what Jesus "preached" was full of hatred and violence against non-believers. The character Jesus comes off as being at least bipolar if not totally schizophrenic if read verbatim and not colorized with interpretation.

Luke 19:27 is but one example of his radical nature, there are plenty more.

There are many heroic characters in literature with greater words of wisdom than Jesus the Christ.

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» RE: What book has everyone been reading? Posted by: staringatthesun

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It's Irrelevant
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Apr 10, 2007 1:55 PM   
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What djnoll says about 'real' Christians is irrelevant.

Christians who 'interpret' the Bible rather than believe in it wholeheartedly are as irrelevant as dew evaporating before the morning sun.

People who interpret the Bible to fit it into a milder form, fit for actual human consumption, are bastardizing what religion is all about. Religion is by its very nature an US vs. THEM proposition. It is DESIGNED to cleave, to make YOU and YOURS better than THOSE OTHERS. That is the point and purpose of religion. It is that way to this very moment in time. You know it and I know it.

All of you Christians who are trying to prove a point by making your religion 'palatable' for the rest of us are playing a game called mental masturbation. Religion has never been designed, invented, cultivated or cultured for mass inclusion. It's purpose is NOT to provide comfort for the masses. You only say it is. Saying doesn't make it so. It just means you SAID it. Religion has always spread thru rape, lies and plunder (read your Bible if you don't believe that) - thru the use of the sword, edicts, bulls, pronouncements, pogroms, and convert or die schemes. It has always and forever will be used to take your money, gain control over your mind, your heart, your family, your relationships, your state, your school boards, your countries, etc. It is a power game. It is a Ponzi scheme. It is a tool for political purposes. Look at what's going on just in the Justice Dept. of he US to see the latter in vital, dynamic action in real time.

The present state, condition, and example that is US culture today proves this point like no other can in modern history. You will witness the demise of 'mild' Christianity because it can't withstand the onslaught of tens of millions of dollars that are used to present FEAR as the basis for its perpetuation. It, being fundamentalist Christianity.

Christianity can't and has never explained the meaning of life, the purpose of pain, provided an explanation for evil, nor can it manifest a soul, an angel or its god. It can ONLY present false dichotomies, call you a sinner and wage war. You are seeing it happen in front of your very eyes in America. That is true Christianity in this nation. That is Christianity in history.

If your god is so powerful, so omniscient, and so incredibly insightful you MUST explain why it/he/she is allowing Christian fundamentalists so much power and control. It will ultimately be used for total and complete evil. As it always has and as it always will.

You can't explain this bizarre god of yours because your god is not there. YOUR GOD IS NOT THERE. The only thing that is there is fear in people's hearts, extremely low education of Christianity's adherents, the inability to understand the difference between right and wrong - due to drug abuse, alcoholism, and external loci of control for the vast majority of 'believers'. Oh, and the willingness to believe leaders who say they know better than you - all because you are LAZY beyond words to describe.

Nothing can stop the masses of totally ignorant Christians from gaining the power they so desperately need. They want it badly because the further they delve into this cult of hate, the emptier and emptier they become. They ultimately experience a near perfect vacuum of emotional instability and lash out at others. They project their emptiness on the rest of us. They get sucked in. It's like explosive decompression out an airlock into the void of space. They find themselves there and desperately attempt to fill that empty hole by following the edicts of their fear: make them believe, tell them they're sinners, lash out at those who KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is NO god.

Christians have no soul but wish they did. You and I will suffer because of them.

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» Situation Seems Hopeless Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: It's Irrelevant Posted by: djnoll

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HOPE THERE'S ENOUGH KOOL AID TO GO AROUND
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 10, 2007 2:49 PM   
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I'm at a loss for words here. Thanks, ANNA

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It's upside down and backwards 2 points
Posted by: antu on Apr 10, 2007 4:22 PM   
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Any Leader who has had a desire for peace and an end to poverty has been martyred.
This is the sad thing about our world, and it has been going on for as long as humans have inhabited this planet.
I can only think of a few. Jesus, (wouldn't it have been something if Jesus were able to get the jews to allow those who really needed the healing baths of the temple to come in and bathe?, OK for health's' sake then have separate facilities, but still I don't see how his time on earth changed much of anything sad to say, like Jefferson said, he was killed to soon to make the impact that might have been possible for a renewed humanitarian world) Gandhi, Martin Luther, John Lennon, Pope Paul II was shot. (I won't put Reagan in there for obvious reasons).
I was born with this sensitive spirit that rejects war greed poverty sweatshops, malls, monsanto, the perrrfect 60's hippy. This is why I relate so much to Christ, and Jefferson, and these other martyrs... This tendancy is so strong in me that if I were born a wealthy elite I'd have the family's billions to work with to make some sort of change in economic structure, to the point of at least having a commune, but I'd probably get kicked out of the family.
And those who actually do the work are not the ones who are rewarded. Have you ever heard the line I built this house? When it takes at least 10 people to do so?
Alas I'm just a 3rd generation mason laborer, trying to get a respectable wage from the coffers of greedy home owners, who are too cheap to buy real rock and insist on fake rock to make the appearance of expensive solid foundation or fireplace...
Wannabes... most upper-middle class Idahoans are cheap elitist- aristocrat -wannabes who waste their money on inefficiency and fake (you name it),...They come to Idaho to exploit cheap labor and cannot fathom voting for a higher minimum wage. They are a big part of the liberal attack mechanism. I cannot get any more money out of them than I did in the 70's. I do the creative masonry labor they play the stock market and bitch at those who would labor all day everyday for pittance and blame them for their plight. Is playing in the stock market the same as making an honest living working?
They are for the most part FOX attack news worshipers who play in the Christian right for their secure status.
And believe me they have killed and will kill to keep it this way.

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They're not just here!
Posted by: tommy_slothrop on Apr 10, 2007 4:40 PM   
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I recently spent some time in some of the small towns along the Amazon in Brazil. They are being taken over by evangelicals funded by the christian right in the US. Unlike typical Brazilians they are hostile to visitors from abroad. Often the whole town has speakers distributed through it from which sermons are broadcast. There are posters around town urging the people to vote for the political candidates that Pat Robertson approves of. It's really an ugly scene!

These people are spreading their sickness throughout the entire world!

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» RE: They're not just here! Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: They're not just here! Posted by: IndyElliott
» RE: They're not just here! Posted by: counterpoint

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Eighty/twenty
Posted by: willymack on Apr 10, 2007 4:57 PM   
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It's been often said that in any given work situation, 20% of the employees do 80% of the useful work, and the rest bring up the rear. Any supervisor or manager worth his or her salt almost immediately recognizes who is who and plans the workday accordingly. Firing or demoting slackers does not change this equation one bit; the 80/20 situation will persist. The same thing exists in the population as a whole. Eighty percent (at least) are incurious, unimaginative, dullards, with middling minds and extremely rigid and non-adaptive mind sets. They're perfect suckers for anyone who tells them what to think, what to eat,who to trust, or distrust, etc. The remaining small minority (20%) are doctors, scientists, educators, engineers, and other people vital to the functioning of society, and are the ones who invent cures for polio, fuel cells, safe x-ray machines, and all the neat gadgets we take for granted. They also provide another function; they lift us from the depths of ignorance and fear based on the silly superstitutions of the past, but only if we seek out and use the knowlege they've toiled to give us. Sadly, that 80% seems immune to their efforts and won't budge from their current mind-set, thus the distrust of science as opposed to belief. There are some very bad people taking advantage of this, and if the 80% of non-thinkers ever gain the upper hand, we're in for a rough ride.

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» And so it goes... Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Eighty/twenty Posted by: antu
» RE: ighty/twenty Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: ighty/twenty Posted by: willymack
» RE: Pareto's Law Posted by: LeaderofMen

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In GOD we trust?
Posted by: righteousbabe on Apr 10, 2007 5:27 PM   
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What I have a hard time understanding is how people who claim to have such faith in God, act just the opposite. It is supposed to be up to God to render judgement unto those who trespass against His laws, yet none of these zealots and their followers seem content to let the Almight do his/her/its job. Jeez. Talk about a crisis of faith.

If one truly believes in God's judgement, well then for (St.) Pete's sake, git outta da way and let him do his job and you be doin' your job (being good and not killin' and stuff). What confounds me is that people just don't actually TRUST the God they worship to render judgement. It's like ascribing responsibility to someone, then just pushing them aside and doing it yourself. If one has faith in God as the Almighty, well then, he/she/it can take care of it just fine, thank you.

So, please! All of you kooky zealots out there reading this, please don't clease the world of sinners and kill in his name unless he asks you to. I guess that's the problem right there: they are actually under the belief that God is OUT-SOURCING JUDGEMENT. Wow!

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» Excellent! Posted by: Beck

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Prepare the HOLY KOOLAID
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Apr 10, 2007 6:00 PM   
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Let these Super Christian's drink deep of Rev. Jim's special Holy Koolaid that is liberally laced with Rat Poison. Let them be on their way to their own personally defined Heaven. You know the place the rest of us with only one baptisim to our credit will never see. The heaven where the tele-evangelists will have your money waiting for you when you arrive! This is similar to the Islam Heaven but without any virgins. So drink deep and long all your Evangelist christians, don't worry about what Jesus would do because you left that flock long ago and follow your earthly tele-masters. Drink deep and enjoy the trip!

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Ignoramousness is bliss
Posted by: YogiBear on Apr 10, 2007 6:20 PM   
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You never heard that "fighting there instead of fighting here" until the Bush lies about Iraq fell through. M-F-ing sheep.

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» RE: Ignoramousness is bliss Posted by: morticia

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Pet peeves
Posted by: Intransit on Apr 10, 2007 6:53 PM   
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Two things that annoy me are right wingers and liberals. For example the Bush admin. and their liberal attitude towards the environment.

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the three monotheisms
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Apr 10, 2007 7:23 PM   
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Joseph Campbell addressed this issue years ago--the three main monotheistic religions (the desert religions) which equate history with mythology, harbor the eye for eye kind of world view and cannot tolerate other faiths coexisting is the foundation of all that is wrong with the modern (and subsequent to their founding) worldview.

Joseph Campbell called Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism the Perennial faiths because of their (comparative) tolerance for different thinking, and their ability to distinguish humankind's quest for spirituality with historical occurances. I'll take the later any day.

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time is relative
Posted by: solrev on Apr 10, 2007 7:29 PM   
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There is a Trinity Judaism, Christianity, and Islam on earth as it is in heaven. You are rational beings look at the numbers as the Trinity goes so goes the planet. The question is, are we going to destroy the planet or not. You may look around and say if you followed my advice; it is easy to save the planet. However, you would just be a voice crying in the wilderness. Radical Christians; sucking Brother Jones joy juice, or living with Jesus in Waco, or hopping a comet to heaven or a Muslim suicide bomber, make a lot of noise but they are irrelevant. Look at the numbers. Apocalyptic prophecies abound within the Trinity. This is where the powers that the people this article talks about come from. Do not underestimate the power of the master deceiver. If the master deceiver could tempt Eve in the garden of God, a few false profits are easy to make. God said if the prophecies of the prophet do not come to pass, the profit does not speak the word of God. If you underestimate the power of God, it seems like a catch 22. Nevertheless, you do not believe any of this mumbo jumbo. You are just a voice crying in the wilderness an innocent bystander. Evolution cannot save your life. In the natural world if an organism changes the ecosystem to the point that the organism is no longer best suited to survive in the ecosystem the organism dies. Evolution cares not for which organism survives. Use your rational mind to search
the literature, find a prophet who speaks the truth to you and be that voice. The alternative is you can just stand by and be a voice crying in the wilderness and watch what we do. Use your rational mind and predict the future who knows the prophet that saves the planet may be among you. Look at the numbers it is to late to start over.

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» RE: time is relative Posted by: antu

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Kill all the religious people. They are obviously unintelligent and they cause all the wars.
Posted by: Mojoe on Apr 10, 2007 7:46 PM   
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Enough said. Kill 'em all.

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God my ass. God has nothing to do with any of the Porblems...
Posted by: common intelligence on Apr 10, 2007 10:07 PM   
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Evangelists , Popes, priests, Padres, Sheiks, shakes, Mohammed, Allah, politicians. They all make the sermon then pass the pan for CASH!

Followers, believers, the delusionary... everyone seems to be looking out side their own hearts for GOD.

Each one of you is a direct desendant, the literal blood of God. Yet most all "feel'" alienated from God as if "He" is somewhere else or "not" in your presents.

Suicidal bombers to a suicidal society here in the USA you all deny God and ask out side your selves for the
"Answer".

If anyone thinks God cares or doesn't, it's only yo whom does or doesn't. If you want the "end" you have but to end it. It will be done! You of little faith, look in the mirror of your heart. Listen not to the whiners and debaters of JC or GW! JC already died. So you have free choice to be as God or separate. What'll it be?

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» RE: funny quote Posted by: solrev

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Fanatics are fanatics, but the clergy and politicians are worse
Posted by: wisegalah on Apr 11, 2007 5:45 AM   
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There is no difference between the fanatics or the christian right, or fanatics of the zionist/jewish settler groups, or fanatics of any islamic sect, sendero luminoso, the IRA, zanu-pf or supporters of dear leader.
They are all exactly the same type of people with the same problem.
Fundamentally they are cowards, too afraid to ask what the real situation may be. They want to blame anyone else for their pain and difficulty and will punish those whom they imagine to be in any way responsible for their condition. In their pain, confusion and silliness they follow anyone who claims to have an answer. Many even follow someone as stupid as plainly dishonest as that little shit of an American president.
I do have some time for those who live out the twisted logic of their lives at some risk to themselves.
I reserve my deepest contempt and loathing for the priests, rabbis, mullahs and politicians who foster the differences, encourage violence, always of course from a safe place, and then profit from their lies and their cynical use of those disposable, easily-lead others.

Wisegalah in Sydney.

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I AM CURIOUS??? ARE THERE ANY PEOPLE OF FAITH ON ALTERNET?
Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 11, 2007 7:36 AM   
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It seems that the most popular subjects are when the topic is some sort of attack on people of faith. Are there any people of faith of ANY religion, not just Christianity, out there? Or is thgis a "hangout" for people who hate religion?

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» ARE THERE ANY PEOPLE OF FAITH ON ALTERNET? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Oh, come on. You're not reading. Posted by: poppop_schell
» self destuctive nature?? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: self destuctive nature?? Posted by: poppop_schell

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give me a break
Posted by: The Big Raven on Apr 11, 2007 9:43 AM   
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Burn your bibles for no where does it state that W.A.S.P.s are allowed to kill off the ORIGINAL peoples and STEAL thier lands in the name of jusus.
Burn your churches for the resources that they hoard while people starve or worst murdered by your cursading warriors is the REAL SIN.
I have read ALL the major books about the world religions and none ring ANY TRUTH and that is the truth!

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» RE: give me a break Posted by: djnoll
» RE: give me a break Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: give me a break Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: give me a break Posted by: OhioPatriot

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just really sad
Posted by: craftne on Apr 11, 2007 11:33 AM   
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We are largely taught by our Western society to be made happy or sad or angry by things outside of us, and are not taught the way to have happiness from the inside that is not shaken by people, events and situations. We are totally attached to outcomes to provide us with pleasure. Trouble is, what makes you happy can cause you pain, because you become dependent on those things for your happiness - a good job, a loving partner, tasty food, beautiful surroundings, a great car.

It saddens me that these fundamental extreme Christian groups talk about how evil the rest of the world is compared to them, and they point fingers and call names and are angry and even violent. It's an "okay to hurt my neighbor" mentality.

These fundamental and judgmental groups are a grave concern, in that scared and traumatised and suffering people can be manipulated into believing things, such as the best will come after death, which absolves them of any responsibility for breaking negative behaviour patterns and habits that lead to problems and misery in this lifetime.

That is very sad, for two reasons. Firstly, these factions do not bring people together, but pull them apart. Splintered, we can not grow and develop as human beings. Secondly, people are not living for right now, working on themselves to find lasting happiness and security IN THIS LIFETIME.

What those two things accomplish is that it creates more suffering, more problems on the planet right now.

To solve problems and suffering, a person must understand his/her own mind and understand others with EQUINIMITY. Only through compassion and understanding can we reach this goal.

And what's very sad is that when these people die, they will die with all their negative habits, all their negative emotions, and they will return to work on them again.

And that's a wasted life. Except for the fact that they taught me how NOT to be.

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