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The Myth of the Risky Sub-Prime Borrower

By Mark Winston Griffith, AlterNet. Posted April 9, 2007.


Money lending institutions have tarred entire segments of the population as credit unworthy through the mortgage industry's own discriminatory, irresponsible -- and now reckless -- behavior.
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Every major paper is running some variation of the same major story: the sub-prime, "exotic" mortgage market is in trouble.

High priced mortgages that include funky gimmicks -- like adjustable rates or no verification of borrower income -- have resulted in record setting foreclosures and a rush by Wall Street to divest from the sub-prime market. Sub-prime loans comprise only 13% percent of outstanding mortgages, but they contribute to over 60% percent of foreclosures.

Some analysts suggest that sub-prime lenders are being punished for giving high-risk loans to borrowers in low- and moderate-income neighborhoods and communities of color, people, they say, who perhaps never should have received a loan in the first place. After all, their logic follows, not every American can handle the responsibility of credit and owning a home.

This is a convenient, yet misguided, conclusion to draw from the sub-prime mortgage debacle. In truth, sub-prime lending is just the latest example of how lenders have tarred entire segments of the population as credit unworthy through the mortgage industry's own discriminatory, irresponsible -- and now reckless -- behavior.

This recklessness begins with the way the sub-prime industry has built into it financial incentives that defer risk, and liability, along a long chain of sub-prime role players. This marks a sharp departure from the past, when loans were typically originated and held by a single bank that assumed any and all of the risk.

Now, actors in sub-prime lending treat these loans like they are radioactive hot potatoes, making a tidy profit with every hand-off. Take for example the mortgage brokers who legally receive kickbacks for hiking up the price of the mortgage; the lending institution which will most likely sell the poorly underwritten, garbage mortgage as soon as it touches its books (last year 80% of all predatory loans were sold on the secondary market); the secondary market which generates billions in fees and commissions by shuttling around these mortgages in Wall Street securitization deals. Throughout this process the guiding spirit is close the deal, damn the consequences.

Ironically, because savings and loans and commercial banks over generations systematically failed to address the credit needs of low and moderate income communities and communities of color -- despite the passage of the Community Reinvestment Act and fair lending laws -- mortgage companies and sub-prime bank affiliates swooped in and aggressively peddled sub-prime mortgages to areas starving for credit.

The term sub-prime is engendered with the belief that certain communities represent a lower order of customer species. As a result, sub-prime lenders justify their predatory pricing by claiming that African Americans and Latinos are higher credit risks. In other words, they deserve whatever horrific loans they get.

Not surprisingly, more than 50% of African-American and 40% of Latino mortgage borrowers have sub-prime loans. While of course many of these folks do in fact have poor credit histories, many of them, often targeted by hyper-aggressive marketing campaigns, would otherwise be eligible for low-cost, "prime" loans. A study by the Center for Responsible Lending documented that African Americans and Latinos get high-priced mortgages far more frequently than whites -- even when they are equally qualified for prime loans.

For proof of this, all one has to do is go to South Queens, where blacks have higher incomes than their white Queens counterparts, but pay more for credit and are losing their homes through foreclosure at epidemic rates. Or in Maryland's Prince George's County where the middle-class, majority black, residents have credit scores that on average are higher than the state average and national averages, but refinanced their homes in 2005 using high-cost loans at almost twice the rate as homeowners regionwide, according to a recent Washington Post article.

Sub-prime lending often works as self-fulfilling prophecy. The most efficient way to ruin a person's credit, and thus make him or her truly eligible for a sub-prime loan, is to make a loan unaffordable, or indiscriminately jack up the price of the loan after a few years, to a person who has a good credit history, but whose income is unlikely to rise along with the payments. For those of us involved in anti-predatory lending organizing and advocacy, we talk to people everyday who never missed a loan payment in their lives until they received a sub-prime mortgage.

The only way to avoid a new era of redlining is if banks take back the market they have ceded to the sub-prime players, using affordable loans designed and underwritten with the best interests of the borrower in mind, not the best interests of Wall Street investors. In doing so, these lenders will discover a deep market of responsible borrowers who are indeed deserving of the right loan, at the right price.

Digg!

See more stories tagged with: predatory lending, mortgages

Mark Winston Griffith is a Fellow at the Drum Major Institute for Public Policy and Co-Director of NEDAP, the Neighborhood Economic Development and Advocacy Project

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Another useless AlterNet article
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 9, 2007 2:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NEW RULE: AlterNet commentators must provide REALISTIC answers to problems, not pie-in-the-sky ideas.

Mark Griffith ended his shop-worn piece with this brilliant solution to the sub-prime problem: “The only way to avoid a new era of redlining is if banks take back the market they have ceded to the sub-prime players…”

That’s like saying, “To avoid forest fires, arsonists should commit other crimes.”


Hugh E. Scott, editor of FreedomCentralUSA.com, an investigative website dedicated to the destruction of domestic fascism (neoconservatism) using truth and the Internet as WMDs.

I also edit King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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Finally someone puts blame where it belongs
Posted by: Gorilla23 on Apr 9, 2007 4:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am so tired of hearing news stories about the "sub-prime" loan problem that blame the victims. The problem is that people who NEED the best rates are being told that because of a poor credit score that they have to pay MORE. Wealthy people making a large profit by taking from those who can least afford it - the very epitome of our version of capitalism. This is an important article because it begins to reverse the corporate-dominated (and slanted) way things are discussed in this country.

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Finally Some One Puts the Blame Where it Belongs
Posted by: cognitorex on Apr 9, 2007 5:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SHODDY BANK FINANCIAL PRACTICES ANNUALLY WASTE or SPILL
the COMBINED REQUIREMENTS of MEDICARE and SOCIAL SECURITY

As regularly as the sun rises in the East, capitalism, as practiced in America today, spills, wastes or loses more financial resources every year than the total requirement of Medicare and Social Security combined.
From pure greed comes excessive risk taking. The U.S. financial industry regularly goes on speculative binges that enrich work-a-day bankers and thieves alike until the (as always predicted) pyramid-like lending excesses end in catastrophe.
I recommend a Value Added Tax mechanism.
Add a one hundredth of one per cent tax on all financial transactions. Presto, the social programs for the average Joe and Jane would be well funded.--Who do you think (always, always, always) pays for the shoddy greedy self serving financial excesses in the first place? You guessed it, the same Janes and Joes that get sucker punched with the old, "Gee whiz, there just doesn't seem to be any money left over for you."

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» See Ya Suckers Posted by: eddie torres
Regulation
Posted by: BlueTigress on Apr 9, 2007 6:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's time to reverse the Reagan-era "deregulation" that was promised to make everything run right.

Clamping down on these fucks will help to prevent stuff like this from happening.

Also, people need to educate themselves. I was surprised to see that middle-class and better people of color were getting taken.

If the mainstream lenders were turning them down, they need to complain long and loud.

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» RE: You Hit The Nail on the Head Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: egulation Posted by: xbj
that "r" word
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Apr 9, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the problem is, people not doing the "r" word RESEARCH before buying a house.... my husband and i looked at all options, took classes, and got a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. we didn't get more house than we could afford(or clean, i hate cleaning). stupid people need to take responsibility and own up to their stupidity. ARM mortgages are STUPID.

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» RE: that "r" word Posted by: djnoll
» RE: that "r" word Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
smaller houses
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Apr 9, 2007 6:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another thing that American urban planners, investers and construction companies need to do is to get rid of the McMansion style of house that they are building and build more community oriented small houses. With the aging population, smaller families (see other article) and soaring prices of everything, we need small, compact and architectually planned housing and communities. It can be done. Then the "rest" of use could actually afford a home.

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» RE: smaller houses Posted by: ALANHESTER
Real Estate Mortgage Defaults
Posted by: jyork on Apr 9, 2007 7:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...
You Are Missing The History
...
Put this current subprime mortage default debacle into persective. Every 10 years or so, we get a Wall Street supported and exploited financial debacle. The time between debacles is a measure of the attention-span of the public. It is also a measure of how terrible the media is.

The media is incapable of telling us anything about Wall Street, finance, the economy or anything important at all.

20 years ago, or so, we had the junk-bond debacle. Also "subprime corporate loans" for mergers and acquisitions. Then we had the savings and loan debacle - based on looting savings and loans to exploit the real estate market with "subprime loans" to real estate speculators. Now we have the subprime mortgage debacle.

As you all know, getting an MBA is a requisite to having the skills and knowledge to be able to... ah... to be able to... ah... cheat, lie, steal, and engineer debacles. The MBA is needed to ensure that you know when to dump your debacle onto the public, the government, or onto the FED, or FDIC and to get out with a few billion (Bush family's billion, or so, profits from Savings and Loan exploitation... to name one.) The skill lies in creating a "corporate-model" to run up the stock value of a ponzi-scheme, get Wall Street to sell the stock, and then dump it before the ponzi-scheme-guys lose. You may have to bribe a few politicians along the way... but that is de rigueur, isn't it?

Everyone of the aforementioned debacles were easily foreseeable. In fact, the FED did foresee them easily. But, they chose not to act on that foresight.

Once a future-debacle currently metastasizes into the short-term tax revenues of the government (lotteries, NJ fails to fund its pension obligations, pension plans invest in the stock market and are valued at current market prices, the real estate "boom" feeds the current economic growth (which would otherwise have remained in recession), 45% of all daily trade on the stock market is now done by hedge funds (otherwise known as speculators), then you get really big debacles. All foreseeable and all easily dealt with beforehand... if someone wanted to... who is supposed to... who is paid to... etc.

The FED, the Congress, the Administration all could foresee the inevitable. But, when we have single-number-stock-market-evaluations (earnings per share as the ONLY thing to look at)... and... it works, then all one has to do is to engineer another EPS growth generator based on whatever ponsi-scheme you can create and off to the stock market you go.

This current debacle, which will wreak its havoc to balance the false growth it fed, will initiate a new recession. All the Republicans can hope for now is that the recession will happen on the Democrat's watch.

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» Functional Economic Illiterates Posted by: eddie torres
Predatory lending
Posted by: Snott on Apr 9, 2007 8:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And, though my intent is not to change the subject - the most glaring, daily example of usury (one of those "mortal sins") - is in those payday loan - AKA - kick 'em when they're down. I'd be willing to bet that many of those who are in the process of failing on their sub-prime loans then fall into the clutches of these extortionists. In the State of Washington, an organization of about 30,000 people have been lobbying to make certain predatory practices illegal - but we haven't won yet. It would be interesting to track who's behind these money-grabbing organizations who have the audacity to counter-lobby, claiming that what they're doing is perfectly legal. How about moral?

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» RE: Predatory lending Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Predatory lending Posted by: VZEQICVA
it ain't a bank account with a picket fence anymore
Posted by: gerdhansel on Apr 9, 2007 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I bought a 10-year-old townhouse in the Northern Virginia suburb of Lorton in December 1988 for $120,000. All $10,000 of my savings went into qualifying for the mortgage, along with another $10,000 “gift” from my wife’s parents. Mind you this was a VA loan (I served during the Vietnam era) and no down payment was required.

I replaced the carpet and tile, rebuilt both bathrooms and had a deck built. When interest rates went down in 1991, I refinanced and brought my Reagan-era 10 percent interest rate down two points.

When I left Northern Virginia in August 1997, I put my townhouse on the market for what I thought was a reasonable price and learned to my horror that the housing bubble of the 1980s had burst, and now I was stuck with overpriced real estate. In April 1988, I was forced to sell my Money Pit for $93,000. Because my loan was guaranteed by the Veterans Administration, I didn’t have to borrow more money to make up the difference.

But I’ll never be able to use my VA loan again. And all the money I paid into that townhouse was gone forever.

I came to the conclusion that the American home was no longer a bank account surrounded by a picket fence, like it had been for my parent’s generation (the “Greatest Generation” of World War 2). I wasn’t surprised to see the real estate bubble start expanding again when the Republicans got back into the White House in 2001. I listened to my co-workers bragging about the ungodly amounts of money their aging homes were selling for, and I bided my time.

Now the bubble is bursting, and before this real estate mess settles the main repository of wealth for the American middle class will be flushed down the toilet. A bunch of folks in San Francisco and New York will make a boatload of money from Bush-era real estate speculation, and the rubes in the flyover states will see their credit ruined forever.

When the major recession we’re about to suffer ends and the dust settles, American will be a nation of renters. Some lucky Baby Boomers will still be homeowners after all is said and done, but most of their children will be renters with sky-high credit card bills.

When I first lost my hiney in real estate game, I figured, well when the Democrats are in the White House, you put your money in the stock market and rent, and when the Republicans take over put your discretionary money in real estate. But now I live in Nevada, and I’m smart enough to know something else: the smart money knows when to get out, while the rest of us ignorant little piggies go to slaughter. The house always wins, always.

Maybe John Connor was right – time to get off the grid and start living under the radar screen.

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» My bad, that was 1998 Posted by: gerdhansel
Its all about the credit scores
Posted by: gexrobert on Apr 9, 2007 9:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone seems to miss the big picture here. Everyone seems to accept that companies have the right to data mine the entire population and come up with a credit score and then sell this information. It is quite a lucrative looting operation that financial and insurance companies have foisted on the US population to make a compliant workforce.

Maybe the real question here is not about subprime, but the entire system of credit scores. When did this crap begin??? Why was everyone asleep in allowing a system like this to take root? I don’t have bad credit, I have no credit score, (I have not borrowed money from anyone) and am treated almost as a criminal by the system. Most un American to not borrow money.

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» RE: What do you expect? Posted by: EagleMB
This is all insane
Posted by: WitchyNy on Apr 9, 2007 11:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A profit based system is the problem. It is the only problem.

We need an environmental based system. We must place the land- the water - the air- the animals and we the people first.
We don't need to 'fix the system'. We need a new one.

"People should be living in houses they built themselves and eating food they have grown themselves".

The Grapes of Wrath

EAT THE RICH

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THE GREAT AMERICAN DREAM
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 9, 2007 11:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No longer a dream. It's a full blown hallucination. With armies of unscrupulous people ready to cash in. Lending money used to be limited to people who knew what they were doing. They arranged a loan that people could realistically repay. There was no double talk. Morgage bankers were held responsible and held to a strict code of ethics. No, my head is not up my butt. Reputation was everything. "Caveat Emptor" goes just so far. Thanks, MR. Regan. ANNA

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I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY.....
Posted by: Mewsician on Apr 9, 2007 1:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.....we're blaming the (admittedly greedy and amoral) lending industry. It's like blaming McDonald's when you're fat. If you don't want to get fat, don't eat Big Macs. If you don't want to get in debt up to your ass, just say NO to credit cards. If you don't want to lose a home and create havoc for yourself and your family, don't take out home loans under circumstances that are patently ridiculous. The only reason McDonald's, the credit card wolves, and the subprime lenders succeed is because people hand them those successes on a silver platter. If you don't have enough money to buy a house, then either find a way to make more money or find yourself alternative living arrangements. But don't blame the thieving jerks in the subprime industry - nobody put a gun to your head demanding that you give in to your (perfectly understandable, but nonetheless unrealistic) desire to own your own home and agree to ruinous mortgage arrangements!

At 48, with a modest income, I knew I would have to leave southern California and go back to my native Illinois if I wanted to own a house. Done deal. Either I could try to find a new job that paid me enough to somehow get into a house or condo, or I'd have to go home. Them's the facts, as unfortunate for this country as they are - certainly it would be better if we could all own our own home. But things are what they are, and that means that home ownership is - however unfairly - largely out of reach for many of us. Having met and married a man whose father was in a position to give him enough money to make a modest downpayment on a fixer-upper in a less-than-desirable neighborhood, I now DO live in a home that we own. But my husband was under no illusions - his salary was roughly the same as mine, and he knew that without his father shelling out for the downstroke, he'd never have been able to buy a house in a million years. He didn't like it, any more than I did, but he accepted that at his income level, that's just how it is. Neither of us ever felt that anybody owed us the right to own a home. We'd never have been willing to take on one of those ridiculous subprime mortgages in a million years! We'd simply have gone on living in an apartment and accepting reality - making the best of it as we went along.

I just can't feel sorry for people who think they're somehow entitled, at any cost, to something they want desperately. That's just not how life works - a lesson our entire nation has somehow completely forgotten. IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO OWN A HOME, YOU CAN'T OWN A HOME. End of story.

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» MY ONLY POINT WAS THAT Posted by: Mewsician
You CAN afford a home if you are renting!!!
Posted by: pinkfloydd on Apr 9, 2007 2:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The last poster I read said something to the effect of "...If you can't afford a home, you can't get one.." or some other nonsense. But, if banks actually looked at the money you made, and not at some silly, useless credit rating that's biased to begin with, then anyone who worked could AFFORD a home. If you pay $700 in rent every month, why the HELL can't you pay $700 in a house payment every month?? Or how about if you pay $825 a month in rent?? I know several couples who pay less than that for their 3 bedroom home. If you've been renting for more than 5 years, that should be ALL the credit worthiness you need for buying a home, not some credit score that is easily biased towards those that can least afford it. All lending practices should be based off the ratio of money made to bills acquired. If you're poor, and make say $30,000 a year, you can afford a home payment of $600 or $700 a month. After all, you're still paying this in RENT, so why wouldn't you be able to pay it for a home?? It makes no sense at all why more people can 'afford' rent, but can't afford the same payments for a home. Credit ratings are for the rich, pure and simple. If everyone had the same interest rate (say a heady 3%), there wouldn't be a problem with defaults or 'sub-prime' lenders. Why would you charge a poor person MORE than you would charge a more wealthier person?? It's one of the biggest discrepencies in this country, and one of the true ways to rebuild our crumbling middle class.

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» why bother with buying??? Posted by: gerdhansel
How will you screw the system?
Posted by: ateo on Apr 9, 2007 2:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's my idea for a good way to screw the system in a small way. If enough people did this we'd make a real impact.

When I get to around retirement age I'm going make sure I have an absurd amount of credit (let's say 150 grand) spread over at least 10 credit cards. Then I'm going to refinance my home.

Then the plan is to basically live large for as long as my "money" lasts. Spend all of my cash from refinancing my home then live off of my credit cards. Travel around the world living luxuriously on the banker's dime. Maybe let my home owner's insurance run out then burn the house to the ground so the company that refinanced my home has nothing to foreclose on.

When the money is gone and I've run up half a million dollars in debt I'll go into hiding in another country using my actual savings/investments which I will liquidate and transfer to an off shore bank.

Something along those lines, I haven't really planned anything out - I merely have an outline for what I think might work. I know the credit companies and banks have insurance of their own to protect against such things but if enough people did it they'd feel it in a big way. The results may not be good, maybe a return of debtor prisons in the U.S.

What do you think?

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You only have half the story:
Posted by: bobalew on Apr 9, 2007 5:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not only are people being cajoled into 'Oh, get into it NOW, before the market rates go up!", but once you're in, the lender you thought was so good, and doing things in your interest, will sell your "Loan" off to a Sub-Prime Loan Servicer, where they'll intentionally not post your payment in a timely manner, and then start charging all kinds of bogus late charges, Drive-by Apparaisal Fees, and such. After about two to three months of this happy horsecrap, even after the most loud and strident protests on your part, that you ARE Paying your Payments on time, AND sending them with return Reciept, Certified mail, they'll start foreclosure proceedings, All to no avail for your efforts, finally selling off your house at a public auction, and recovering all their bogus fees, from the sale. To see what this really looks like, please read the history of Fairbanks Capital, a Sub-Prime servicer in Salt Lake City, Utah, an institution owned by the Primary Loan Insurance company, PMI. They Were cited by the FTC, but Changed their name, slipped out of the Regulatory noose, and continue on to do the same crap, under a different name. To whom do you think they contribute political payments? Of Course, it's the Bushies, and rebuplicans. How do they get away with it? They choose their victims carefully, people who cannot afford to fight and can barely afford their House payments. Any Medical Emergency or conflict extra of that, and they cannot afford to defend themselves. This is one of many reasons why the Sub-Prime market is imploding, and it's being carefully orchestrated, and the Predators are making the money, and running away with prople's homes, Life savings, and dignity every day, all for the Love of the mighty buck, and a Scam that allows it to occur. I speak from personal experience, by theway, so you can't tell me I don't know what's going on, I have witnessed this FIRSTHAND! MAny of these sub-Prime lenders are nothing but foreclosure mills, actively doing criminal acts everyday.
So everyone, Please Get Educated....

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Dear me... the world is full of suckers, but here's how the game works:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 9, 2007 7:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, good buddy - I see you've got a nice property there! Why don't you take out a mortgage, we'll sell you the loan, you can have a nice vacation, buy a new car, have a good time - whaddaya say? Just sign right here... and here... whoops, the rate just popped up a little, that's an extra $500 for me, and an extra $5000 for you to pay back... did I mention that my boss has a development company and a small construction company (staffed by illegal immigrants, but hey!). Us good folks at Western Capital are here to help YOU!

So here's how it works: get a sucker to accept a loan that they don't have a chance in hell of repaying. Foreclose on the property, gut the place and turn it into a gentrified condo development, sell it and make a ton of cash. That's the basis of the sub-prime loan market; the mortgage brokers are in bed with developers and bankers. Declining rates of home ownership among poor people? No surprises there.

Writ large, this is how the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the US Treasury, the State Department, the Export-Import Bank, and 'economic consulting firms' like BearingPoint (and MAIN) operate(d). You go to some podunk Third World country that has something you want, like oil, you make them a loan they can never repay, and when they default yøu put them over a barrel with an IMF austerity package and take them for all they're worth. If the puppet government doesn't go along, you foment a coup and install a new puppet. If that doesn't work, you send in the US military (followed by the IMF, the World Bank, BearingPoint, and 'privatization schemes') - as is happening in Iraq today. The giveaway is happening RIGHT NOW - the summit was supposed to happen April 11, but has been moved back to May 28-30 (see Who is the Iraq Development Program?)

Now, you can say that people sure are stupid to accept these loans - but you won't see the media reporting on how this fraud works, and people who take these loans are very foolish - it's the spectacle of the sucker economy. Of course, the media loves to blame the victims and tell them that it's their responsibility to pay off their debt - but guess who owns the media? Why, the people who will be collecting your debt payments, is who.

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American greed is the biggest obstacle!
Posted by: nesNYC on Apr 9, 2007 10:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Part of the problem is greed on all sides plainly and simply. For instance those of you who are homeowners try to get as much out of selling your home as possible thereby creating inflation. If a house "turns over" a few times, guess what? You've just priced your kids out of the market. As time goes by in a few generations, we will create a class divide so great the only thing that will bring equaltiy back will be a civil war.

I wish the older folks who have lived life were more considerate of the younger genrations. Unfortunately, greed will always get in the way. That's the American way.

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Capitalism
Posted by: grangersmith on Apr 11, 2007 6:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well Eagle I know where you got your name from! You have more faith in Capitolism and the all out goodwill of the rich, than I do....In a perfect world there wouldn't be any poor or payday loans, or I guess min wage....The min wage was put in place so workers with low wage skills can survive, eat, pay rent, and so on. I have a hard time buying the part about this being the reason for outsourcing jobs to other countries. The out sourcing came years after the min wage laws! If you hadn't noticed lately, to eat, have shelter, pay for heat, and just to get from place to place in suburbia, and paying for health care in the US takes a lot more money than minumum wage can offer...But if you can share a apartment, that allows 5 or 6 people in a one, two bedroom dump, and maybe work at a pizza place for food, and live your life carefully, don't ever get sick....you may be able to survive on minumum wage....The third world market can survive on less than min wage, and truely what these business's are doing in third worlds is promoting indentured slavery. Are you suggesting that these companies will come back to the US if US workers will take 50cents an hour, like the 3rd world market? And what do you consider low skilled or no skilled workers. Are you saying that the nurses aid who feeds, bathes, changes diapers, and wipes the rear ends of your grandparents are low skilled or no skilled labor so they do not deserve to get paid a livable wage? Who deserves to get paid a livable wage? And who gets to decide what professions are unworthy of , or worthy of a livable wage. The bankers and the real estate brokers, know exactly what they were doing when they were using high pressure sales pitch to Americans who believe in the dream of home ownership. Maybe, I don't know for sure, but is it possible that this whole gig of high interest loans is maybe an investment in failure. Could there be some type of tax right off for the investors? Investors, people who have money, and want more, do not go into such a high risk investment without some sort of loosers payoff! You or someone said, that the people who took these loans are stupid, I say they were lied to, and they wanted to believe it, believe that they could own a home. The slick talking snake oil sales people knew exactly what they were selling, but as long as they got their commision, it was just another stupid fool that they conned.... The stupid consumers, if Eagle is correct in his/her thinking are stupid, but if they are the stupid ones, who are the investors who have put up billions of dollars into the high risk loans and payday loans? How could the payday loan investors ever keep in business, unless they were getting most of their investment and profit back? REally this is a slippery slope. Eagle what you have said about capitolism, mom, apple pie and the American way, lacks any realism or substance, it's like listening to Newt, or Bill , or even Bush and his buds! Yes I get it, your a capitolist, who makes money off the sweat, blood and misery of others...And you will stick to your story, till apple pie becomes blueberry! Oh, ok, I also get poor=stupid, lazy, not worthy of anything else but to be slaves to the rich......Hey this is the story of ages, this is the reason behind all suffering and misery, this is why there is war, starvation, and pain....You have your ways, I have mine, Thanks but no thanks, I'm not buying what your selling eagle....

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» RE: Capitalism Posted by: EagleMB
One problem might be
Posted by: kmart35 on Apr 15, 2007 2:00 AM   
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that a lot of first-time home buyers probably qualify for risky sub-primes. My husband is a lawyer (I'm a stay at home mom) and had no problem paying his bills. The house we bought was only a little over $100,000. We don't have many other bills as we buy used cars, don't take vacations, etc. The house payment is about 15% of his income. But yet he didn't qualify for a prime loan. I think this is because of his student loans from law school, and maybe could be because he is Hispanic? So we had to pay extra because of this for 2 years, and now we find out with his A-rated credit will qualify to refinance after our penance for a rate $500 cheaper that is the same that we were paying for our rent for 5 years before buying the house 2 years ago. If we had no problems paying that rent payment on time or early for 5 years, why did they think we would have any problems paying that for a mortgage payment??? But it's also strange that people think all sub-prime people are poor people with bad credit, how bout a lawyer with A-rated credit with law school loans???

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» RE: One problem might be Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: One problem might be Posted by: kmart35
» RE: One problem might be Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: One problem might be Posted by: kmart35
Take Responsibility for Your Actions and Stop Blaming Subprime Lenders
Posted by: stopblaming on Apr 16, 2007 9:36 PM   
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These people have a tendency blaming others for their misery. Where is dignity of taking responsibility for their actions? They are blaming sub prime lenders and now want government and other non-profit organizations to step in to help. They are the ones that put themselves in their current situation in the first place. Actually, it is not the greedy sub prime lenders who put these people in their default situation; they brought it upon themselves. Some wanted to become rich and millionaire the next day. They wanted to buy houses today and sell them tomorrow for tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars profit. So look! Who’s greedy here? Here’s exactly what I’m talking about. On April 13, 2007 ABC Nightline aired a segment called “Real Estate Leaves One Investor High and Dry”. If any of you missed that program, I strongly suggest you go read it and you’ll understand why you shouldn’t feel sorry for these greedy people. In all, he acquired eight homes over eight months, and a lot of debt. "In total I was $2.2 million in debt between mortgages and unsecured lines of credit and credit cards". He even had a nerve to post on his own web site asking for public bail him out. They deserved whatever pain and suffering they have upon them right now. They are the ones that initially fueled a small flame in the real estate market into full blown red hot frenzied market. I wonder if people ever successfully try to tell the casino host that they made the wrong the bet and refused to pay after the roulette stop spinning.
It really makes me sick in the stomach when politicians try to use the media and the opportunity to point fingers at this moment to enhance their chance for election or reelection in the up coming election year.
I’m also sick of hearing people complaining that they are about to lose their “home ownership dream” because of default of the loan due to adjustable rate goes up. They know exactly when the adjustable rate is going to adjust. There is nothing to be surprised of. Had it not for these special adjustable rate programs and the relaxed guidelines in place, these people probably would not be able to qualify for the loan in the first place. They should at the very least be happy and appreciate to have a taste of “home ownership” in whatever length of time they had in there. Had the lenders still had the tough guidelines in place like fifteen or twenty years ago, then these people probably wouldn’t have chance to borrow in the first place. So the truth is they really got nothing to lose. As a matter of fact, they won although the victory was short-lived.
Perhaps the one that is to blame for all this is our government, the Fed, the White House, etc. About four or five ago when the Fed drop the interest rate to its lowest point in 40 years history in fear of recession, buyers just jumped in as if the money was free ignoring the low interest rate not only offset by the high price of the house but also surpassed by many times the amount of interest money otherwise save. As for the buyers, you pay low for one item but have pay much higher for other to complete the real estate transaction. Our government loves it when there is a real estate transaction involves home price increase because they can have a piece of pie by increasing your property tax. I wouldn’t be surprised if the government has doubled the revenue in property tax from 2000 to 2006.
Well, for the home owners who are about to lose their homes due adjustable interest rate adjusting upward, consider it a tuition fee just like when you go to college for your education. Remember lender did not stick a gun in your head forcing your to sign the note and the deed of trust.

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not too forgiving
Posted by: lindalee on Apr 17, 2007 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before casting judgment on these folks that are losing their homes, maybe we should think about circumstances and how things just seem to happen.
My husband and I were approved for a mortgage last year. Since then I had a disagreement with Cingular and my credit score went from 850 to 600. This was from a $400 bill that I did not believe I owed. I tried to talk to them when I got the bill and the next day they sent it to collection. My husband's score, at the time, was about 650....his previous wife didn't pay a damn thing that she agreed to pay and his credit tanked because of that. My credit has helped him rise to 800 since then. So, as a result of Cingular swimming to the top of my credit history, my credit score dropped, and the interest rate that we were give was raised 2 points!! It didn't matter that we were never late with anything and that that Cingular payment was uncharacteristic of my credit history. It also hasn't mattered that I have paid Cingular (and since switched carriers), the damage to my score is done and will take years to bring back up.

So, as a result, we will not buy a house. The housing market in Massachusetts is ridiculous anyways. Tiny houses in bad shape go for about $220,000 (we know because we've looked at a few) and decent house go for about $280,000. Although we can afford a mortage, we are not willing to settle for less and pay more because of the credit scoring game.

There are plenty of sub-prime lenders out there that would give us what we want but we have been around long enough to know that these loans are not what they appear. I do understand how people get hooked into these loans. They truly believe that they will not have any problem paying that mortgage and they want it badly enough that they refuse to believe that that fine print will be their undoing. Large medical bills, unemployment, etc. - anything can happen.

I have to laugh every time Bush talks about "ownership"....it's bullshit along with everything else that comes out of his mouth. I'm sure he's smirking about so-called liberal Massachuetts being one of two states that has the largest gap between the haves and the have-nots. Some of us could see it coming.

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