COMMENTS: 170
Chomsky: Preventing War with Iran
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What then followed was a solemn debate about whether serial numbers on advanced roadside bombs (IEDs) were really traceable to Iran; and, if so, to that country's Revolutionary Guards or to some even higher authority.
This "debate" is a typical illustration of a primary principle of sophisticated propaganda. In crude and brutal societies, the Party Line is publicly proclaimed and must be obeyed -- or else. What you actually believe is your own business and of far less concern. In societies where the state has lost the capacity to control by force, the Party Line is simply presupposed; then, vigorous debate is encouraged within the limits imposed by unstated doctrinal orthodoxy. The cruder of the two systems leads, naturally enough, to disbelief; the sophisticated variant gives an impression of openness and freedom, and so far more effectively serves to instill the Party Line. It becomes beyond question, beyond thought itself, like the air we breathe.
The debate over Iranian interference in Iraq proceeds without ridicule on the assumption that the United States owns the world. We did not, for example, engage in a similar debate in the 1980s about whether the U.S. was interfering in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan, and I doubt that Pravda, probably recognizing the absurdity of the situation, sank to outrage about that fact (which American officials and our media, in any case, made no effort to conceal). Perhaps the official Nazi press also featured solemn debates about whether the Allies were interfering in sovereign Vichy France, though if so, sane people would then have collapsed in ridicule.
In this case, however, even ridicule -- notably absent -- would not suffice, because the charges against Iran are part of a drumbeat of pronouncements meant to mobilize support for escalation in Iraq and for an attack on Iran, the "source of the problem." The world is aghast at the possibility. Even in neighboring Sunni states, no friends of Iran, majorities, when asked, favor a nuclear-armed Iran over any military action against that country. From what limited information we have, it appears that significant parts of the U.S. military and intelligence communities are opposed to such an attack, along with almost the entire world, even more so than when the Bush administration and Tony Blair's Britain invaded Iraq, defying enormous popular opposition worldwide.
"The Iran effect"
The results of an attack on Iran could be horrendous. After all, according to a recent study of "the Iraq effect" by terrorism specialists Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, using government and Rand Corporation data, the Iraq invasion has already led to a seven-fold increase in terror. The "Iran effect" would probably be far more severe and long-lasting. British military historian Corelli Barnett speaks for many when he warns that "an attack on Iran would effectively launch World War III."
What are the plans of the increasingly desperate clique that narrowly holds political power in the U.S.? We cannot know. Such state planning is, of course, kept secret in the interests of "security." Review of the declassified record reveals that there is considerable merit in that claim -- though only if we understand "security" to mean the security of the Bush administration against their domestic enemy, the population in whose name they act.
Even if the White House clique is not planning war, naval deployments, support for secessionist movements and acts of terror within Iran, and other provocations could easily lead to an accidental war. Congressional resolutions would not provide much of a barrier. They invariably permit "national security" exemptions, opening holes wide enough for the several aircraft-carrier battle groups soon to be in the Persian Gulf to pass through -- as long as an unscrupulous leadership issues proclamations of doom (as Condoleezza Rice did with those "mushroom clouds" over American cities back in 2002). And the concocting of the sorts of incidents that "justify" such attacks is a familiar practice. Even the worst monsters feel the need for such justification and adopt the device: Hitler's defense of innocent Germany from the "wild terror" of the Poles in 1939, after they had rejected his wise and generous proposals for peace, is but one example.
The most effective barrier to a White House decision to launch a war is the kind of organized popular opposition that frightened the political-military leadership enough in 1968 that they were reluctant to send more troops to Vietnam -- fearing, we learned from the Pentagon Papers, that they might need them for civil-disorder control.
Doubtless Iran's government merits harsh condemnation, including for its recent actions that have inflamed the crisis. It is, however, useful to ask how we would act if Iran had invaded and occupied Canada and Mexico and was arresting U.S. government representatives there on the grounds that they were resisting the Iranian occupation (called "liberation," of course). Imagine as well that Iran was deploying massive naval forces in the Caribbean and issuing credible threats to launch a wave of attacks against a vast range of sites -- nuclear and otherwise -- in the United States, if the U.S. government did not immediately terminate all its nuclear energy programs (and, naturally, dismantle all its nuclear weapons). Suppose that all of this happened after Iran had overthrown the government of the U.S. and installed a vicious tyrant (as the US did to Iran in 1953), then later supported a Russian invasion of the U.S. that killed millions of people (just as the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran in 1980, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians, a figure comparable to millions of Americans). Would we watch quietly?
It is easy to understand an observation by one of Israel's leading military historians, Martin van Creveld. After the U.S. invaded Iraq, knowing it to be defenseless, he noted, "Had the Iranians not tried to build nuclear weapons, they would be crazy."
Surely no sane person wants Iran (or any nation) to develop nuclear weapons. A reasonable resolution of the present crisis would permit Iran to develop nuclear energy, in accord with its rights under the Non-Proliferation Treaty, but not nuclear weapons. Is that outcome feasible? It would be, given one condition: that the U.S. and Iran were functioning democratic societies in which public opinion had a significant impact on public policy.
As it happens, this solution has overwhelming support among Iranians and Americans, who generally are in agreement on nuclear issues. The Iranian-American consensus includes the complete elimination of nuclear weapons everywhere (82% of Americans); if that cannot yet be achieved because of elite opposition, then at least a "nuclear-weapons-free zone in the Middle East that would include both Islamic countries and Israel" (71% of Americans). Seventy-five percent of Americans prefer building better relations with Iran to threats of force. In brief, if public opinion were to have a significant influence on state policy in the U.S. and Iran, resolution of the crisis might be at hand, along with much more far-reaching solutions to the global nuclear conundrum.
Promoting democracy -- at home
These facts suggest a possible way to prevent the current crisis from exploding, perhaps even into some version of World War III. That awesome threat might be averted by pursuing a familiar proposal: democracy promotion -- this time at home, where it is badly needed. Democracy promotion at home is certainly feasible and, although we cannot carry out such a project directly in Iran, we could act to improve the prospects of the courageous reformers and oppositionists who are seeking to achieve just that. Among such figures who are, or should be, well-known, would be Saeed Hajjarian, Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi, and Akbar Ganji, as well as those who, as usual, remain nameless, among them labor activists about whom we hear very little; those who publish the Iranian Workers Bulletin may be a case in point.
We can best improve the prospects for democracy promotion in Iran by sharply reversing state policy here so that it reflects popular opinion. That would entail ceasing to make the regular threats that are a gift to Iranian hardliners. These are bitterly condemned by Iranians truly concerned with democracy promotion (unlike those "supporters" who flaunt democracy slogans in the West and are lauded as grand "idealists" despite their clear record of visceral hatred for democracy).
Democracy promotion in the United States could have far broader consequences. In Iraq, for instance, a firm timetable for withdrawal would be initiated at once, or very soon, in accord with the will of the overwhelming majority of Iraqis and a significant majority of Americans. Federal budget priorities would be virtually reversed. Where spending is rising, as in military supplemental bills to conduct the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would sharply decline. Where spending is steady or declining (health, education, job training, the promotion of energy conservation and renewable energy sources, veterans benefits, funding for the UN and UN peacekeeping operations, and so on), it would sharply increase. Bush's tax cuts for people with incomes over $200,000 a year would be immediately rescinded.
The U.S. would have adopted a national health-care system long ago, rejecting the privatized system that sports twice the per-capita costs found in similar societies and some of the worst outcomes in the industrial world. It would have rejected what is widely regarded by those who pay attention as a "fiscal train wreck" in-the-making. The U.S. would have ratified the Kyoto Protocol to reduce carbon-dioxide emissions and undertaken still stronger measures to protect the environment. It would allow the UN to take the lead in international crises, including in Iraq. After all, according to opinion polls, since shortly after the 2003 invasion, a large majority of Americans have wanted the UN to take charge of political transformation, economic reconstruction, and civil order in that land.
If public opinion mattered, the U.S. would accept UN Charter restrictions on the use of force, contrary to a bipartisan consensus that this country, alone, has the right to resort to violence in response to potential threats, real or imagined, including threats to our access to markets and resources. The U.S. (along with others) would abandon the Security Council veto and accept majority opinion even when in opposition to it. The UN would be allowed to regulate arms sales; while the U.S. would cut back on such sales and urge other countries to do so, which would be a major contribution to reducing large-scale violence in the world. Terror would be dealt with through diplomatic and economic measures, not force, in accord with the judgment of most specialists on the topic but again in diametric opposition to present-day policy.
Furthermore, if public opinion influenced policy, the U.S. would have diplomatic relations with Cuba, benefiting the people of both countries (and, incidentally, U.S. agribusiness, energy corporations, and others), instead of standing virtually alone in the world in imposing an embargo (joined only by Israel, the Republic of Palau, and the Marshall Islands). Washington would join the broad international consensus on a two-state settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict, which (with Israel) it has blocked for 30 years -- with scattered and temporary exceptions -- and which it still blocks in word, and more importantly in deed, despite fraudulent claims of its commitment to diplomacy. The U.S. would also equalize aid to Israel and Palestine, cutting off aid to either party that rejected the international consensus.
Evidence on these matters is reviewed in my book Failed States as well as in The Foreign Policy Disconnect by Benjamin Page (with Marshall Bouton), which also provides extensive evidence that public opinion on foreign (and probably domestic) policy issues tends to be coherent and consistent over long periods. Studies of public opinion have to be regarded with caution, but they are certainly highly suggestive.
Democracy promotion at home, while no panacea, would be a useful step towards helping our own country become a "responsible stakeholder" in the international order (to adopt the term used for adversaries), instead of being an object of fear and dislike throughout much of the world. Apart from being a value in itself, functioning democracy at home holds real promise for dealing constructively with many current problems, international and domestic, including those that literally threaten the survival of our species.
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Posted by: Temporary on Apr 6, 2007 1:05 AM
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To put this simple;what short of weapons the Iranians have is THERE BUSINESS! The UN is probobly the most corrupet instituion in the world, so what ever is decides has about 0% credibility or influcne at this! You still have a window to talk to them about REAL ISSUES, such as stability in the middle-east, oil prices and so on. These are REAL issues wich you can TALK TO THEM! The Nuclear issue ISN'T If you make that an issue,(as Comski himself suggests HERE,) then you can basicly kiss any talks goodbye! And a "nuclear free" middle-east is also out of the question!
Let my one more time make this clear;if you make Irans nuclear weapons an issue, you can basicly KISS GOODBYE to any furder talks on REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES nuclear free middle-east isn't going to cut it! If America and it's allies wont give up missile-defence(for example actively planning such systems in the middle-east)and new super sonic firts strike ability under the disguise of THAAD, then you can basicly FORGET IT! You people are absolutely THE LAST here to tak about disarmament! Let my AGAIN make myself clear;nukes are basicly ALL Iran has against you! They are a LIFE INSURANCE! You ask Iran to give those up, then the talks are FINISHED! It's up to you to make decide;if you want REAL PACE, then return to Nuclear policy of the Nixon era and the 1972 ABM treaty! If you want war, then you can throw any diplomatic "peace maneuvers" in Iran, Syria, Asia or what ever, but ultimately, as long as your attitude is what it is, then THATS were were going! To HELL, and most of all, TOGETHER! Either you get this White European Supremacy BULLSHIT and "Pax America" out of your thick skull, or basicly, were ALL going to HELL! The choice is yours, but what ever choice you make, you better make it FAST!!!
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» RE: The terms of negotiations
Posted by: Temporary
» RE: The terms of negotiations
Posted by: cuja1
» RE: The terms of negotiations
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: The terms of negotiations...for the People, NOT the State
Posted by: Jayzer
» Iran is never an equal player until it becomes a democracy
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Iran is never an equal player until it becomes a democracy
Posted by: maldissent
» Is it just me, or...
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Iran is never an equal player until it becomes a democracy
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: dobermanmacleod on Apr 6, 2007 3:17 AM
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I think the problem lies not in our culture, but in our genes. It has only been 200,000 years since our ancesters were rare animals on the plans of Africa. Our jungle genes are simply not ready, and will soon bring mankind back to their numbers 200K ago.
Thank goodness the universe is teeming with life, because soon our earth won't be.
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» RE: Imagine...
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» RE: Imagine...
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» RE: Imagine...
Posted by: ankhet
» No Downfall for U.S. Plutocracy in Sight
Posted by: mrcentrist
» YOU ARE WRONG
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» RE: YOU ARE WRONG
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» Not really.
Posted by: justaguy
» Extinction nothing to accept
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» The Revelation of Unwelcome Facts: a Psycho-analysis of
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» Well said
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» Wrong
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Posted by: Roy Eidelson on Apr 6, 2007 3:58 AM
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» Warmongering
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Warmongering
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: esisting the Drums of War
Posted by: amacd
» Egypt to Iran:" Look we have no fear of ..Isr nuke blackmail.."
Posted by: etisoppa
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 6, 2007 4:48 AM
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* I think Chomsky tends to overestimate public opinion, and assume that the Regime just fell out of the sky and started giving orders without any popular mandate. It seems like he tends to take his own opinions and wishful thinking and projects them onto the masses.
* And on the subject of popular opinion, what if it went back to what it was @2001-2003, when 70-90% of Americans wanted to bomb everything, including their grandma's cottage and cages full of newborn puppies? Why such a high regard for public opinion, rather than what's the right thing to do?
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» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: ZPaul
» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: grailsnail
» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» You are an idiot!
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» RE: You are an idiot!
Posted by: deltadancer
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Posted by: rwa on Apr 6, 2007 5:16 AM
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Despite his respected reputation for documenting, dissecting and exposing the hypocrisy of the US and European regimes and acutely analyzing the intellectual deceptions of imperial apologists, these analytical virtues are totally absent when it comes to discussing the formulation of US foreign policy in the Middle East, particularly the role of his own ethnic group, the Jewish Pro-Israel lobby and their Zionist supporters in the government. This political blindness is not unknown or uncommon. History is replete of intellectual critics of all imperialisms except their own, the abuses of power by others, but not of one’s own kin and kind. Chomsky’s long history denying the power and role of the pro-Israel lobby in decisively shaping US Middle East policy culminated in his recent conjoining with the US Zionist propaganda machine attacking a study critical of the Israeli lobby.
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» RE: Noam Chomsky and the Pro-Israel Lobby
Posted by: buzzjustice
» The two state solution IS zionist
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Noam Chomsky and the Pro-Israel Lobby
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Try reading his books, rwa
Posted by: fanny666
» RWA Racism Unleashed
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» RE: WA Racism Unleashed
Posted by: EncinoM
» Quit with the "racism label", the discussion was going good and I was learning.... so quit attacking
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Quit with the "racism label", the discussion was going good and I was learning.... so quit attacking
Posted by: EncinoM
» Chomsky is a relentless critic of Israeli government policies.
Posted by: fanny666
» Zionism will always mean what it means, its whether it still exists since Israel has obtained....
Posted by: Prophit
» The term "Zionist" has changed meanings
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: JMorse on Apr 6, 2007 5:31 AM
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Noam Chomsky
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» Dover23..A REALLY BRAVE PATRIOT!
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» Put Another Way....
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» "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
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» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
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» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
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» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
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» ok ShadowDweller...
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» RE: ok ShadowDweller...
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» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
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Posted by: robmikejas on Apr 6, 2007 6:15 AM
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As an American citizen I worry everyday about our damaged and tormented image as it stands in the world today,as well as our inability to speak to the world of peace with any meaning at all. Bush sees it all as a challenge to his masculinity and therefor his natural role as a rich boy bully and cowboy conquerer of the weak. The American Empire is on the march and we the people are reduced to being the victims of an invisible coup with a demented leadership speaking in our names to the world. With even an ounce of humility and tolerance, this juggernaught of death and destruction could be brought under control, but Bush and his followers seek not peace in the world, but rather the "Rapture" and the inherent death required to bring about their goal. If we the people do not rise up soon in absolute condemnation of the Bush death march, we will see our legacy be one of a hated and defeated people and an experiment in democracy gone wrong...and a world unfit for any human progress.
Demand Impeachment now...Make Pelosi put the option back on the table and act upon it now. Send the warmongers out of the sphere of influence and into prison where they belong.
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» RE: follow the leader, like Neville Chamberlain
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» K(x3?)best
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» RE: follow the leader, like Neville Chamberlain
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» RE: follow the leader, like Neville Chamberlain
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» Godwin's Law violation!!!!!!!!
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Posted by: pnut on Apr 6, 2007 6:46 AM
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Posted by: Sweeet Pea on Apr 6, 2007 6:50 AM
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THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT WAR WITH IRAN!!!
www.a28.org - SPELL IT OUT!!!
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» Missing the point
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» 100%
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» RE: IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!!
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» other insurance
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» RE: other insurance
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» call congress 202-224-3121
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» RE: call congress 202-224-3121
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: call congress 202-224-3121
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: call congress 202-224-3121
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» RE: IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!!
Posted by: Darrell Kern
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Posted by: edith on Apr 6, 2007 7:22 AM
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However, then he proceeds to concoct a shopping list of American federal spending programs other than defense, which, if adopted, would incredibly make Iran a more democratic or humane society. This alleged connection between US spending priorities and the behavior of Iranian clerical fascists is absurd.
Of course Iran should not be attacked for reasons Chomsky and others on this thread have declared. But the nutballs who run Iran could care less whether the federal govt or the states provide health insurance to 50 million uninsured Americans or whether federal aid to ranchers qualifies as energy conservation, agriculture promotion or just plain pork.
It is always interesting to observe how a great intellect like Chomsky cannot conceive of any positive programs for human welfare that are not in the firm control of the dead bureaucracy that molders in Washington DC. IF it's federal it must be "for" the people, eh, prof?
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» RE: keep it simple, chomsky
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: keep it simple, chomsky
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Democracy Needs Limited Government to Flourish
Posted by: edith
» It's fine for you to advocate your libertarian vision.....
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» RE: It's fine for you to advocate your libertarian vision.....
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» RE: keep it simple, chomsky
Posted by: xgroverx
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Posted by: shangrilalad on Apr 6, 2007 7:29 AM
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In election after election, morons vote for underhanded, lying sociopaths who use greed, fear and hate-mongering to cater to the basest instincts of the people, which is made possible by a media owned and operated by sociopaths who inundate us with lies and propaganda 24/7.
In spite of that, we are not a nation of dupes. A majority of Americans are not fooled, instead we are a nation of Moral Cowards afraid to question authority. Rather than taking to the streets and demanding a restoration of democracy, we hunker down like beaten dogs terrified of our masters. A response that has never, and will never work against tyrants.
Bush and his fascistic regime grow bolder by the day. Let’s pray for salvation and hope that God answers our prayers quicker than He did the prayers of the Jews in Nazi Germany.
.
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» RE: Moral Cowards
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» RE: Moral Cowards - or sparrows
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» RE: Moral Cowards
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» RE: Moral Cowards
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Posted by: astralman on Apr 6, 2007 7:46 AM
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Posted by: metamind on Apr 6, 2007 8:02 AM
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http://eidelsonconsulting.com/blog/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81UKnb5zJbM
http://nodes.org
This is a thought-provoking article wherein Mr. Chomsky advocates "democracy promotion" here in the United States. While that sounds like a good solution, we need to address the vast amounts of propaganda, programming and dis-information being fed to the people.
If we don't have good information and good mental programming ( virtues ) then we won't make good decisions. Let's recall how the majority of Americans supported the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq before we lost. Now many of the same Americans who supported the Iraq war have changed their minds. But it's too late to "re-do" history. We must now live with our UNwise decision.
Democracy by itself is not a complete solution. We need wisdom, virtue and more checks on the use of military power to "solve problems." We need to DE-MILITARIZE Americans' minds. We have bad mental programming. We need to DE-PROGRAM AMERICA!
Watch the YouTube video
"Resisting the Drums of War"
for a deeper understanding of how we have been manipulated by appealing to five instinctual mental reactions to perceived threats:
Vulnerability, Injustice, Distrust, Superiority and Helplessness
We need to work on ourselves. We need to practice "tough love" with our neighbors, friends and family. We need to correct our own thinking and "get right with God" (righteousness ).
It's all US. We are the problem. We are the solution. We need to change our mind.
Democracy promotion is a good idea ... in conjunction with DE-PROGRAMMING MILITARISM and RE-PROGRAMMING CORRECT MENTAL ATTITUDES and an accurate understanding of the world we share.
Wisdom discernment is more important than democracy. What is the WISE course of action? HOW do we know it is wise? WHY is it wise?
Taking a vote from uninformed, poorly programmed people is UNWISE in my opinion.
First things first. Let's get the right programming and accurate information before we take
a vote on the wise course of action.
Patience is a virtue. Trutfulness is a virtue. Compassion is a virtue.
Let's start with these programs.
Blessings!
Steve Moyer
http://nodes.org
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Posted by: JMorse on Apr 6, 2007 8:09 AM
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Salter points out that recipients of funding protest that they are not swayed by any conflicts of interest and don’t allow the sources of funding to affect their decision, “but whether these claims are actually true is already somewhat of a red herring. Judging by the journalism being offered (and not offered) by The Nation, FAIR, The Progressive, IPA, Mother Jones, Alternet.org, and other recipients of their funding, the big establishment foundations are successfully sponsoring the kind of ‘opposition’ that the US ruling elite can tolerate and live with.” [citation]
A study of Chomsky’s stands on particularly dreadful actions such as JFK’s assassination and 9/11, and the roles fo the CIA and FBI, shows Chomsky to be a defacto defender of the status quo’s most egregious outrages and their covert agency engines.
From:
Towers of Deception, Barrie Zwicker, pp. 222 – 224
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep [one] in everlasting ignorance –that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” Herbert Spencer
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» --WARNING-- Aliens approaching --WARNING--
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» RE: --WARNING-- Aliens approaching --WARNING--
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» JMorse -
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» Distraction?
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Apr 6, 2007 8:21 AM
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Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 6, 2007 8:54 AM
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Also many others, search for whatever you're interested in.
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Posted by: Astro on Apr 6, 2007 9:00 AM
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» Oh my god that is sad.
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» RE: Oh my god that is sad.
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» RE: Cliff's notes: U.S. + war with Iran = bad
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» RE: ARTICLE WAY TOOOO LONG!
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 6, 2007 8:59 AM
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Posted by: Astro on Apr 6, 2007 9:18 AM
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Posted by: andrewstromotich on Apr 6, 2007 9:47 AM
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the us would get it's ass kicked if it tried iran, everyone outside of the us knows this, which is why most of the world ain't that worried...
the wildcard is that bush is a nutter, but fact of the matter is, the us would take massive casualties much as idf did in lebanon. this would more than likely lead to a destruction of the us military similar to what happened in russia post afghanistan. i don't think the military industrial complex would go for that.
iran it too powerful and too connected to be hit. this would force both russia and china out of it's slumber, which in some ways would be great for the military industrial complex in the us (a new cold war), but fact is it could lead to revolution in us and widespread revolt in the us military (they ain't used to taking 10k casualties in a week)...
naw, it's just a great way to redirect the antiwar folks energies...
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» blitz style attack of iran would mean...
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» Agree, attack on Iran would be suicidal for many reasons and therefore is unlikely
Posted by: ateo
» just a thought
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» RE: just a thought
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: just a thought
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» Public Opinion: the canary in the coal mine
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: Public Opinion: the canary in the coal mine
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» it is true the ultimate goal would be achieved through bombing...
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: it is true the ultimate goal would be achieved through bombing...
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» i hear ya, but...
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: i hear ya, but...
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» i agree
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: i agree
Posted by: tom@nderson13
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sonex on Apr 6, 2007 10:21 AM
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Even if a third of Americans believe that this administration was directly involved or 80% believe this administration is lying about 911, you won't find a word about it in the mainstream media. It doesn't seem to matter how much evidence is given or who comes forward.
The reason for this censorship is quite simple, 911 is being used for the justification for every actions they undertake, from the wars to the reductions of our rights and freedoms, 911 Truth could stop these criminals in their tracks and bring this whole corrupt power structure down, a frightening thought for Noam Chomsky and many others it seems...
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» RE: 911 Truth is the key.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: 911 Truth is the key.
Posted by: fanny666
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pfm on Apr 6, 2007 10:36 AM
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» RE: War is not always a bad decision...
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: Roverton on Apr 6, 2007 11:01 AM
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Defending your home.
Democracy-Hypocracy
In the ruins of Rome.
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 6, 2007 12:03 PM
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A case of far too little, done far too late will let a small handful of desperate greedy psychopaths push the final suicide button.
Imagine the surprise and irony as Bush and Cheney turn out to be the greatest suicide bombers of all time.
A peculiar kind of justice in that...
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Apr 6, 2007 12:26 PM
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> to develop nuclear weapons.
I consider myself sane (not all would necessarily agree) and I'd have no problem with Iran having nukes. We survived the USSR having tens of thousands of nukes for about three decades, so I don't know what the big deal would be if Iran had several or a few dozen. It could plausibly stabilize the situation by making Iran more equal in terms of military power. perhaps making us think at least twice about doing anything rash. Think of it terms of a Second Amendment for countries: "the right of the people[nations] to keep and bear arms[nukes]." The only two stable and equal configurations are either everyone has nukes or no one has them. I don't think we're going to do away with our own nukes anytime soon. We could even give Iran some of our own nukes to hasten the move to a more stable situation. -not gonna happen, but it does make some sense.
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» RE: If Iran gets nukes they become a permanent world power
Posted by: ateo
» Why is it the end of the world if Iran gets nuclear weapons...?
Posted by: mjabele
» What rhetoric "streaming out of Iran????
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: If Iran gets nukes they become a permanent world power--What of Pakistan?
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: By the way, Russia's missiles didn't go away and they are still a threat - N/T
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Ok, I'll bite
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Ok, I'll bite
Posted by: fanny666
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mistery509 on Apr 6, 2007 12:38 PM
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When skin cancer is discovered it is taken out. (troops in Iraq)
The chemical that is causing the cancer is removed and distroyed. (Bush and cronies)
The Insurgents will have no one to fight with. They will go to their homes and families. The cancer will start to heal.
Bush can be sent to an island far away where he can sip on martinies and play with his toy soldiers.
Cheney can be put on a huge ranch where he can shoot to his heart's content.
Get a blond girl friend for Ricey and let her travel. As long as she stays away from USA.
Rumsfeld is already in his gopher hole somewhere, where he belongs.
Is this a dream or reality?
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Posted by: jende on Apr 6, 2007 1:10 PM
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» RE: THE REAL SOLUTION
Posted by: bambic
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 6, 2007 1:24 PM
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A nuclear armed nation is an immovable object regionally. Iran with nukes will make all its talk of "wiping Israel and America off the map in a holy fire" seem much more realistic. Right now we can do something about Iran and all of its constant threats to the existence of the United States by its leaders. Let them get nukes and we'll be powerless to do anything to them and maybe one day they'll make good on their threats to destroy America and Israel and make an attempt.
Well, that is the scenario that will play out because the U.S. lacks the political will, not to mention the military strength, to take on Iran in a meaningful manner. With the facts as they stand today America cannot make war on Iran in a way that will result in a net positive for the U.S. All we can expect is a negative outcome. Therefore, the war will not happen and we will get to live the remainder of our days with a nuclear armed Iran constantly threatening to destroy us.
Sounds like fun.
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» RE: Iran has never threatened the U.S. or Israel? Ha! You're not worth talking to, N/T
Posted by: ateo
» No, they haven't.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: War with Iran now is preferable to war with Iran later, however...
Posted by: xgroverx
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Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 6, 2007 1:29 PM
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What I wonder now is whether it has always been that way and I just never noticed before? Or whether politicans have more recently become the lapdogs of monied interests that do not represent what the people want?
Anybody remember the Clinton impeachment? An overwhelming majority of Americans said, "Forget it." Instead the Rethugs had to drag us all through the drama. Looking back, does anyone think it was worth it?
More recently, contrary to a post upthread asserting that Americans wanted to nuke the whole world in 2001-02, our city streets were loaded, overloaded, with protests against the invasion of Iraq. That inspite of what now can be seen as a pattern of outrageous lies the Bush people told in order to convince the decision-makers that the invasion was necessary--even though it violates the Nuremberg decisions and marks the first time in American history that we have invaded a country that did not attack us.
OK. Teddy Roosevelt's invasion of Cuba and LBJ's of Vietnam were also based on lies. And the US invasion of Hawaii? Opps. Maybe Iraq wasn't the first time. Maybe the US has been a
colonizing power for quite some time now. So, is that what the American people want?
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» A representative's job is "government of the people, by the people, and for the people." No, huh?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: The point I got from Chomsky is that our political leadership ignores the popular will.
Posted by: jmp3954
» RE: The point I got from Chomsky is that our political leadership ignores the popular will.
Posted by: asilsfable
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Apr 6, 2007 5:48 PM
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Make no mistake, even though some Democrats are currently talking up softer options, AIPAC's 2006 convention made clear that it would like to see the United States destroy Iran's nuclear program to enhance Israel's security. The Israeli government has repeatedly made the same point, sometimes in very blunt terms, and has openly mobilized its resources in the U.S. government and the media to that end. The many Democratic congressmen who identify strongly with Israel apparently agree. Many must have reservations about supporting the hard right-wing approach espoused by recent Israeli governments, while others must appreciate the suffering of the Palestinians, but if they are troubled they prefer to say nothing...
Many Democratic politicians take their policy positions straight from AIPAC briefings, repeatedly stressing that the military option "must remain on the table" vis-à-vis Iran, which has virtually become a mantra. Many openly support creating a larger military, a sure indication of intent to wage further wars of choice against the Muslim world. Significantly, they also accept the Israeli assertion that Iran's declared and inspected development of nuclear energy already constitutes a secret nuclear weapons program, providing a convenient casus belli for a first strike. There is irony in Israel's outrage, since Tel Aviv already has a nuclear arsenal and has refused to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty...
It is possible to continue indefinitely citing emotion-laden, devoid-of-fact defenses of Israel and condemnations of Muslims voiced by America's Democratic legislators, some of whom, sad to report, might actually believe what they are saying. Some commentary is particularly inflammatory, and the mainstream media, quick to report Muslim threats against Israel, has generally failed to report the invective emanating from America's own Congress...
Unless they are all lying, which is certainly a possibility, it is evident that the nominally antiwar Democratic leadership is willing to go to war with Iran to disarm it. Until the Democrats come to grips with the malignancy and impracticality of their own view of the Middle East and jettison their blind endorsement of Israel and its extremist policies, there can be no peace anywhere. Indeed, given the posturing of the Democratic Party and its firm commitment to Israel, an endless cycle of war scarcely distinguishable from neoconservative fantasies is inevitable. After Iran, Syria will be next, then Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt. America is still powerful enough to make all of that happen, though it is clear that it will not be able to glue the pieces back together again once the fighting is over. Such an outcome would not bring any real security to Israel, and it certainly would not be good for the United States...
full article by Philip Giraldi
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» Chomsky, Petras, and Giraldi
Posted by: rwa
» CONT. OK rwa, you only distort Chomsky, Giraldi and AIPAC, whereas Petras is a weasel
Posted by: amacd
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Posted by: Hedda on Apr 6, 2007 6:42 PM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 6, 2007 8:46 PM
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Posted by: tom@nderson13 on Apr 6, 2007 9:41 PM
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As a loyal Bushie (on the Iraq war), McCain is endorsed by the White House as the person best suited to carry on the war. With little or no foreign policy/war time political experience, Clinton, Obama, and Edwards among others lose ground as the American public grows more fearful. McCain selects Guiliani as his VP and the torch of 9/11 inspires millions to re-elect a Republican to the White House. God save us...
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 7, 2007 2:01 AM
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» RE: Iran will be attacked this month
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: Hedda on Apr 7, 2007 5:10 AM
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Even a child knows that if he wants something and is running up against oposition from one parent , he will recruit the other parent as an ally to help plea his case .....as the two parents bicker amongst themselves, the child escapes the room and the debate..... he created a successful diversion. Now the child is free to do whatever because the parents are so involved in pleading their cause they don't even notice the child has left. On the other hand , and every child knows this as well ....if he can not get his parents into a heated debate because they side together against his wishes........He is proverbially screwed so to speak!!!! United we stand , divided we fall !!!!!!
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» RE: war will end...
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: Doggycuny on Apr 7, 2007 5:51 PM
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» democratic promotion at home... so much for Noam the "anarchist". nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: Benjamin on Apr 8, 2007 11:55 AM
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» RE: Did US really support Russian invasion of Iran?
Posted by: fanny666
» Thanks for reminder on Blum's "Killing Hope"
Posted by: amacd
» RE: Thanks for reminder on Blum's "Killing Hope"
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 9, 2007 10:50 AM
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 9, 2007 11:50 AM
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Captain Kirk would have taken accurate stock of Israel's nukes, replicated them, and then given an equal amount to EVERY OTHER ARAB AND ISLAMIC COUNTRY IN THE REGION.
Thereby creating the PERFECT BALANCE OF POWER; MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) that would have certainly ASSURED peace in the Mideast, INDEFINITELY.
But you see, America isn't The Federation; America isn't a democracy, it is the evil Fascist Klingon Empire bent on taking over the entire Mideast. And that requires classic Klingon strategy; pick the weakest planet that will readily accept you as an ally (Israel); arm them out of all proportion to every other ally; and then destroy all their enemies one by one.
In the end, the Klingon turns on its own ally and takes it over.
This is the TRUE Amerikan design for the Mideast; it started with Iraq, will go on to Iran and Syria, and it will end with Saudi Arabia and finally, Israel.
Count on it. Israel has long already figured this out, and Saudi Arabia is waking up as well.
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Posted by: Temporary on Apr 6, 2007 1:05 AM
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To put this simple;what short of weapons the Iranians have is THERE BUSINESS! The UN is probobly the most corrupet instituion in the world, so what ever is decides has about 0% credibility or influcne at this! You still have a window to talk to them about REAL ISSUES, such as stability in the middle-east, oil prices and so on. These are REAL issues wich you can TALK TO THEM! The Nuclear issue ISN'T If you make that an issue,(as Comski himself suggests HERE,) then you can basicly kiss any talks goodbye! And a "nuclear free" middle-east is also out of the question!
Let my one more time make this clear;if you make Irans nuclear weapons an issue, you can basicly KISS GOODBYE to any furder talks on REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES nuclear free middle-east isn't going to cut it! If America and it's allies wont give up missile-defence(for example actively planning such systems in the middle-east)and new super sonic firts strike ability under the disguise of THAAD, then you can basicly FORGET IT! You people are absolutely THE LAST here to tak about disarmament! Let my AGAIN make myself clear;nukes are basicly ALL Iran has against you! They are a LIFE INSURANCE! You ask Iran to give those up, then the talks are FINISHED! It's up to you to make decide;if you want REAL PACE, then return to Nuclear policy of the Nixon era and the 1972 ABM treaty! If you want war, then you can throw any diplomatic "peace maneuvers" in Iran, Syria, Asia or what ever, but ultimately, as long as your attitude is what it is, then THATS were were going! To HELL, and most of all, TOGETHER! Either you get this White European Supremacy BULLSHIT and "Pax America" out of your thick skull, or basicly, were ALL going to HELL! The choice is yours, but what ever choice you make, you better make it FAST!!!
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» RE: The terms of negotiations
Posted by: Temporary
» RE: The terms of negotiations
Posted by: cuja1
» RE: The terms of negotiations
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: The terms of negotiations...for the People, NOT the State
Posted by: Jayzer
» Iran is never an equal player until it becomes a democracy
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Iran is never an equal player until it becomes a democracy
Posted by: maldissent
» Is it just me, or...
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Iran is never an equal player until it becomes a democracy
Posted by: Jayzer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dobermanmacleod on Apr 6, 2007 3:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the problem lies not in our culture, but in our genes. It has only been 200,000 years since our ancesters were rare animals on the plans of Africa. Our jungle genes are simply not ready, and will soon bring mankind back to their numbers 200K ago.
Thank goodness the universe is teeming with life, because soon our earth won't be.
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» RE: Imagine...
Posted by: Temporary
» RE: Imagine...
Posted by: MAD
» RE: Imagine...
Posted by: ankhet
» No Downfall for U.S. Plutocracy in Sight
Posted by: mrcentrist
» YOU ARE WRONG
Posted by: Wassermann
» RE: YOU ARE WRONG
Posted by: grailsnail
» Not really.
Posted by: justaguy
» Extinction nothing to accept
Posted by: grailsnail
» The Revelation of Unwelcome Facts: a Psycho-analysis of
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar
» Well said
Posted by: grailsnail
» Wrong
Posted by: grailsnail
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Roy Eidelson on Apr 6, 2007 3:58 AM
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» Warmongering
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Warmongering
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: esisting the Drums of War
Posted by: amacd
» Egypt to Iran:" Look we have no fear of ..Isr nuke blackmail.."
Posted by: etisoppa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Apr 6, 2007 4:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
* I think Chomsky tends to overestimate public opinion, and assume that the Regime just fell out of the sky and started giving orders without any popular mandate. It seems like he tends to take his own opinions and wishful thinking and projects them onto the masses.
* And on the subject of popular opinion, what if it went back to what it was @2001-2003, when 70-90% of Americans wanted to bomb everything, including their grandma's cottage and cages full of newborn puppies? Why such a high regard for public opinion, rather than what's the right thing to do?
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» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: ZPaul
» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: grailsnail
» RE: Are You Jewish?
Posted by: HeroesAll
» You are an idiot!
Posted by: Darrell Kern
» RE: You are an idiot!
Posted by: deltadancer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Apr 6, 2007 5:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite his respected reputation for documenting, dissecting and exposing the hypocrisy of the US and European regimes and acutely analyzing the intellectual deceptions of imperial apologists, these analytical virtues are totally absent when it comes to discussing the formulation of US foreign policy in the Middle East, particularly the role of his own ethnic group, the Jewish Pro-Israel lobby and their Zionist supporters in the government. This political blindness is not unknown or uncommon. History is replete of intellectual critics of all imperialisms except their own, the abuses of power by others, but not of one’s own kin and kind. Chomsky’s long history denying the power and role of the pro-Israel lobby in decisively shaping US Middle East policy culminated in his recent conjoining with the US Zionist propaganda machine attacking a study critical of the Israeli lobby.
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» RE: Noam Chomsky and the Pro-Israel Lobby
Posted by: buzzjustice
» The two state solution IS zionist
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Noam Chomsky and the Pro-Israel Lobby
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Try reading his books, rwa
Posted by: fanny666
» RWA Racism Unleashed
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: WA Racism Unleashed
Posted by: EncinoM
» Quit with the "racism label", the discussion was going good and I was learning.... so quit attacking
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Quit with the "racism label", the discussion was going good and I was learning.... so quit attacking
Posted by: EncinoM
» Chomsky is a relentless critic of Israeli government policies.
Posted by: fanny666
» Zionism will always mean what it means, its whether it still exists since Israel has obtained....
Posted by: Prophit
» The term "Zionist" has changed meanings
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: JMorse on Apr 6, 2007 5:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Noam Chomsky
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» RE: Chomsky Explains His Weak Spine Regarding 9/11
Posted by: dover23
» Dover23..A REALLY BRAVE PATRIOT!
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Put Another Way....
Posted by: CatDad
» "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: JMorse
» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: JMorse
» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» ok ShadowDweller...
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: ok ShadowDweller...
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» RE: "Disagree" does not equal "weak spine"
Posted by: fanny666
Comments are closed-
Posted by: robmikejas on Apr 6, 2007 6:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an American citizen I worry everyday about our damaged and tormented image as it stands in the world today,as well as our inability to speak to the world of peace with any meaning at all. Bush sees it all as a challenge to his masculinity and therefor his natural role as a rich boy bully and cowboy conquerer of the weak. The American Empire is on the march and we the people are reduced to being the victims of an invisible coup with a demented leadership speaking in our names to the world. With even an ounce of humility and tolerance, this juggernaught of death and destruction could be brought under control, but Bush and his followers seek not peace in the world, but rather the "Rapture" and the inherent death required to bring about their goal. If we the people do not rise up soon in absolute condemnation of the Bush death march, we will see our legacy be one of a hated and defeated people and an experiment in democracy gone wrong...and a world unfit for any human progress.
Demand Impeachment now...Make Pelosi put the option back on the table and act upon it now. Send the warmongers out of the sphere of influence and into prison where they belong.
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» RE: follow the leader, like Neville Chamberlain
Posted by: kbest
» K(x3?)best
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: follow the leader, like Neville Chamberlain
Posted by: deltadancer
» RE: follow the leader, like Neville Chamberlain
Posted by: mythbuster
» Godwin's Law violation!!!!!!!!
Posted by: justaguy
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Posted by: pnut on Apr 6, 2007 6:46 AM
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Posted by: Sweeet Pea on Apr 6, 2007 6:50 AM
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THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT WAR WITH IRAN!!!
www.a28.org - SPELL IT OUT!!!
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» Missing the point
Posted by: ShadowDweller
» 100%
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!!
Posted by: CatDad
» other insurance
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: other insurance
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» call congress 202-224-3121
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: call congress 202-224-3121
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: call congress 202-224-3121
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: call congress 202-224-3121
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!!
Posted by: Darrell Kern
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edith on Apr 6, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, then he proceeds to concoct a shopping list of American federal spending programs other than defense, which, if adopted, would incredibly make Iran a more democratic or humane society. This alleged connection between US spending priorities and the behavior of Iranian clerical fascists is absurd.
Of course Iran should not be attacked for reasons Chomsky and others on this thread have declared. But the nutballs who run Iran could care less whether the federal govt or the states provide health insurance to 50 million uninsured Americans or whether federal aid to ranchers qualifies as energy conservation, agriculture promotion or just plain pork.
It is always interesting to observe how a great intellect like Chomsky cannot conceive of any positive programs for human welfare that are not in the firm control of the dead bureaucracy that molders in Washington DC. IF it's federal it must be "for" the people, eh, prof?
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» RE: keep it simple, chomsky
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: keep it simple, chomsky
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Democracy Needs Limited Government to Flourish
Posted by: edith
» It's fine for you to advocate your libertarian vision.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's fine for you to advocate your libertarian vision.....
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: keep it simple, chomsky
Posted by: xgroverx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shangrilalad on Apr 6, 2007 7:29 AM
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In election after election, morons vote for underhanded, lying sociopaths who use greed, fear and hate-mongering to cater to the basest instincts of the people, which is made possible by a media owned and operated by sociopaths who inundate us with lies and propaganda 24/7.
In spite of that, we are not a nation of dupes. A majority of Americans are not fooled, instead we are a nation of Moral Cowards afraid to question authority. Rather than taking to the streets and demanding a restoration of democracy, we hunker down like beaten dogs terrified of our masters. A response that has never, and will never work against tyrants.
Bush and his fascistic regime grow bolder by the day. Let’s pray for salvation and hope that God answers our prayers quicker than He did the prayers of the Jews in Nazi Germany.
.
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» RE: Moral Cowards
Posted by: maldissent
» RE: Moral Cowards - or sparrows
Posted by: IanA
» RE: Moral Cowards
Posted by: veive
» RE: Moral Cowards
Posted by: Darrell Kern
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Posted by: astralman on Apr 6, 2007 7:46 AM
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Posted by: metamind on Apr 6, 2007 8:02 AM
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http://eidelsonconsulting.com/blog/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81UKnb5zJbM
http://nodes.org
This is a thought-provoking article wherein Mr. Chomsky advocates "democracy promotion" here in the United States. While that sounds like a good solution, we need to address the vast amounts of propaganda, programming and dis-information being fed to the people.
If we don't have good information and good mental programming ( virtues ) then we won't make good decisions. Let's recall how the majority of Americans supported the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq before we lost. Now many of the same Americans who supported the Iraq war have changed their minds. But it's too late to "re-do" history. We must now live with our UNwise decision.
Democracy by itself is not a complete solution. We need wisdom, virtue and more checks on the use of military power to "solve problems." We need to DE-MILITARIZE Americans' minds. We have bad mental programming. We need to DE-PROGRAM AMERICA!
Watch the YouTube video
"Resisting the Drums of War"
for a deeper understanding of how we have been manipulated by appealing to five instinctual mental reactions to perceived threats:
Vulnerability, Injustice, Distrust, Superiority and Helplessness
We need to work on ourselves. We need to practice "tough love" with our neighbors, friends and family. We need to correct our own thinking and "get right with God" (righteousness ).
It's all US. We are the problem. We are the solution. We need to change our mind.
Democracy promotion is a good idea ... in conjunction with DE-PROGRAMMING MILITARISM and RE-PROGRAMMING CORRECT MENTAL ATTITUDES and an accurate understanding of the world we share.
Wisdom discernment is more important than democracy. What is the WISE course of action? HOW do we know it is wise? WHY is it wise?
Taking a vote from uninformed, poorly programmed people is UNWISE in my opinion.
First things first. Let's get the right programming and accurate information before we take
a vote on the wise course of action.
Patience is a virtue. Trutfulness is a virtue. Compassion is a virtue.
Let's start with these programs.
Blessings!
Steve Moyer
http://nodes.org
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Posted by: JMorse on Apr 6, 2007 8:09 AM
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Salter points out that recipients of funding protest that they are not swayed by any conflicts of interest and don’t allow the sources of funding to affect their decision, “but whether these claims are actually true is already somewhat of a red herring. Judging by the journalism being offered (and not offered) by The Nation, FAIR, The Progressive, IPA, Mother Jones, Alternet.org, and other recipients of their funding, the big establishment foundations are successfully sponsoring the kind of ‘opposition’ that the US ruling elite can tolerate and live with.” [citation]
A study of Chomsky’s stands on particularly dreadful actions such as JFK’s assassination and 9/11, and the roles fo the CIA and FBI, shows Chomsky to be a defacto defender of the status quo’s most egregious outrages and their covert agency engines.
From:
Towers of Deception, Barrie Zwicker, pp. 222 – 224
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep [one] in everlasting ignorance –that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” Herbert Spencer
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» --WARNING-- Aliens approaching --WARNING--
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: --WARNING-- Aliens approaching --WARNING--
Posted by: JMorse
» JMorse -
Posted by: LeftWright
» Distraction?
Posted by: xgroverx
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Apr 6, 2007 8:21 AM
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Posted by: fanny666 on Apr 6, 2007 8:54 AM
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Also many others, search for whatever you're interested in.
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Posted by: Astro on Apr 6, 2007 9:00 AM
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» Oh my god that is sad.
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Oh my god that is sad.
Posted by: IanA
» RE: Cliff's notes: U.S. + war with Iran = bad
Posted by: ateo
» RE: ARTICLE WAY TOOOO LONG!
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 6, 2007 8:59 AM
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Posted by: Astro on Apr 6, 2007 9:18 AM
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Posted by: andrewstromotich on Apr 6, 2007 9:47 AM
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the us would get it's ass kicked if it tried iran, everyone outside of the us knows this, which is why most of the world ain't that worried...
the wildcard is that bush is a nutter, but fact of the matter is, the us would take massive casualties much as idf did in lebanon. this would more than likely lead to a destruction of the us military similar to what happened in russia post afghanistan. i don't think the military industrial complex would go for that.
iran it too powerful and too connected to be hit. this would force both russia and china out of it's slumber, which in some ways would be great for the military industrial complex in the us (a new cold war), but fact is it could lead to revolution in us and widespread revolt in the us military (they ain't used to taking 10k casualties in a week)...
naw, it's just a great way to redirect the antiwar folks energies...
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» blitz style attack of iran would mean...
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» Agree, attack on Iran would be suicidal for many reasons and therefore is unlikely
Posted by: ateo
» just a thought
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» RE: just a thought
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: just a thought
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» Public Opinion: the canary in the coal mine
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: Public Opinion: the canary in the coal mine
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» it is true the ultimate goal would be achieved through bombing...
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: it is true the ultimate goal would be achieved through bombing...
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» i hear ya, but...
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: i hear ya, but...
Posted by: tom@nderson13
» i agree
Posted by: andrewstromotich
» RE: i agree
Posted by: tom@nderson13
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Posted by: sonex on Apr 6, 2007 10:21 AM
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Even if a third of Americans believe that this administration was directly involved or 80% believe this administration is lying about 911, you won't find a word about it in the mainstream media. It doesn't seem to matter how much evidence is given or who comes forward.
The reason for this censorship is quite simple, 911 is being used for the justification for every actions they undertake, from the wars to the reductions of our rights and freedoms, 911 Truth could stop these criminals in their tracks and bring this whole corrupt power structure down, a frightening thought for Noam Chomsky and many others it seems...
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» RE: 911 Truth is the key.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: 911 Truth is the key.
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: pfm on Apr 6, 2007 10:36 AM
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» RE: War is not always a bad decision...
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: Roverton on Apr 6, 2007 11:01 AM
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Defending your home.
Democracy-Hypocracy
In the ruins of Rome.
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 6, 2007 12:03 PM
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A case of far too little, done far too late will let a small handful of desperate greedy psychopaths push the final suicide button.
Imagine the surprise and irony as Bush and Cheney turn out to be the greatest suicide bombers of all time.
A peculiar kind of justice in that...
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Posted by: MartianBachelor on Apr 6, 2007 12:26 PM
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> to develop nuclear weapons.
I consider myself sane (not all would necessarily agree) and I'd have no problem with Iran having nukes. We survived the USSR having tens of thousands of nukes for about three decades, so I don't know what the big deal would be if Iran had several or a few dozen. It could plausibly stabilize the situation by making Iran more equal in terms of military power. perhaps making us think at least twice about doing anything rash. Think of it terms of a Second Amendment for countries: "the right of the people[nations] to keep and bear arms[nukes]." The only two stable and equal configurations are either everyone has nukes or no one has them. I don't think we're going to do away with our own nukes anytime soon. We could even give Iran some of our own nukes to hasten the move to a more stable situation. -not gonna happen, but it does make some sense.
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» RE: If Iran gets nukes they become a permanent world power
Posted by: ateo
» Why is it the end of the world if Iran gets nuclear weapons...?
Posted by: mjabele
» What rhetoric "streaming out of Iran????
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: If Iran gets nukes they become a permanent world power--What of Pakistan?
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: By the way, Russia's missiles didn't go away and they are still a threat - N/T
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Ok, I'll bite
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Ok, I'll bite
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: mistery509 on Apr 6, 2007 12:38 PM
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When skin cancer is discovered it is taken out. (troops in Iraq)
The chemical that is causing the cancer is removed and distroyed. (Bush and cronies)
The Insurgents will have no one to fight with. They will go to their homes and families. The cancer will start to heal.
Bush can be sent to an island far away where he can sip on martinies and play with his toy soldiers.
Cheney can be put on a huge ranch where he can shoot to his heart's content.
Get a blond girl friend for Ricey and let her travel. As long as she stays away from USA.
Rumsfeld is already in his gopher hole somewhere, where he belongs.
Is this a dream or reality?
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Posted by: jende on Apr 6, 2007 1:10 PM
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» RE: THE REAL SOLUTION
Posted by: bambic
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 6, 2007 1:24 PM
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A nuclear armed nation is an immovable object regionally. Iran with nukes will make all its talk of "wiping Israel and America off the map in a holy fire" seem much more realistic. Right now we can do something about Iran and all of its constant threats to the existence of the United States by its leaders. Let them get nukes and we'll be powerless to do anything to them and maybe one day they'll make good on their threats to destroy America and Israel and make an attempt.
Well, that is the scenario that will play out because the U.S. lacks the political will, not to mention the military strength, to take on Iran in a meaningful manner. With the facts as they stand today America cannot make war on Iran in a way that will result in a net positive for the U.S. All we can expect is a negative outcome. Therefore, the war will not happen and we will get to live the remainder of our days with a nuclear armed Iran constantly threatening to destroy us.
Sounds like fun.
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» RE: Iran has never threatened the U.S. or Israel? Ha! You're not worth talking to, N/T
Posted by: ateo
» No, they haven't.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: War with Iran now is preferable to war with Iran later, however...
Posted by: xgroverx
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Posted by: Sojourner on Apr 6, 2007 1:29 PM
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What I wonder now is whether it has always been that way and I just never noticed before? Or whether politicans have more recently become the lapdogs of monied interests that do not represent what the people want?
Anybody remember the Clinton impeachment? An overwhelming majority of Americans said, "Forget it." Instead the Rethugs had to drag us all through the drama. Looking back, does anyone think it was worth it?
More recently, contrary to a post upthread asserting that Americans wanted to nuke the whole world in 2001-02, our city streets were loaded, overloaded, with protests against the invasion of Iraq. That inspite of what now can be seen as a pattern of outrageous lies the Bush people told in order to convince the decision-makers that the invasion was necessary--even though it violates the Nuremberg decisions and marks the first time in American history that we have invaded a country that did not attack us.
OK. Teddy Roosevelt's invasion of Cuba and LBJ's of Vietnam were also based on lies. And the US invasion of Hawaii? Opps. Maybe Iraq wasn't the first time. Maybe the US has been a
colonizing power for quite some time now. So, is that what the American people want?
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» A representative's job is "government of the people, by the people, and for the people." No, huh?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: The point I got from Chomsky is that our political leadership ignores the popular will.
Posted by: jmp3954
» RE: The point I got from Chomsky is that our political leadership ignores the popular will.
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: rwa on Apr 6, 2007 5:48 PM
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Make no mistake, even though some Democrats are currently talking up softer options, AIPAC's 2006 convention made clear that it would like to see the United States destroy Iran's nuclear program to enhance Israel's security. The Israeli government has repeatedly made the same point, sometimes in very blunt terms, and has openly mobilized its resources in the U.S. government and the media to that end. The many Democratic congressmen who identify strongly with Israel apparently agree. Many must have reservations about supporting the hard right-wing approach espoused by recent Israeli governments, while others must appreciate the suffering of the Palestinians, but if they are troubled they prefer to say nothing...
Many Democratic politicians take their policy positions straight from AIPAC briefings, repeatedly stressing that the military option "must remain on the table" vis-à-vis Iran, which has virtually become a mantra. Many openly support creating a larger military, a sure indication of intent to wage further wars of choice against the Muslim world. Significantly, they also accept the Israeli assertion that Iran's declared and inspected development of nuclear energy already constitutes a secret nuclear weapons program, providing a convenient casus belli for a first strike. There is irony in Israel's outrage, since Tel Aviv already has a nuclear arsenal and has refused to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty...
It is possible to continue indefinitely citing emotion-laden, devoid-of-fact defenses of Israel and condemnations of Muslims voiced by America's Democratic legislators, some of whom, sad to report, might actually believe what they are saying. Some commentary is particularly inflammatory, and the mainstream media, quick to report Muslim threats against Israel, has generally failed to report the invective emanating from America's own Congress...
Unless they are all lying, which is certainly a possibility, it is evident that the nominally antiwar Democratic leadership is willing to go to war with Iran to disarm it. Until the Democrats come to grips with the malignancy and impracticality of their own view of the Middle East and jettison their blind endorsement of Israel and its extremist policies, there can be no peace anywhere. Indeed, given the posturing of the Democratic Party and its firm commitment to Israel, an endless cycle of war scarcely distinguishable from neoconservative fantasies is inevitable. After Iran, Syria will be next, then Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt. America is still powerful enough to make all of that happen, though it is clear that it will not be able to glue the pieces back together again once the fighting is over. Such an outcome would not bring any real security to Israel, and it certainly would not be good for the United States...
full article by Philip Giraldi
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» Chomsky, Petras, and Giraldi
Posted by: rwa
» CONT. OK rwa, you only distort Chomsky, Giraldi and AIPAC, whereas Petras is a weasel
Posted by: amacd
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Posted by: Hedda on Apr 6, 2007 6:42 PM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 6, 2007 8:46 PM
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Posted by: tom@nderson13 on Apr 6, 2007 9:41 PM
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As a loyal Bushie (on the Iraq war), McCain is endorsed by the White House as the person best suited to carry on the war. With little or no foreign policy/war time political experience, Clinton, Obama, and Edwards among others lose ground as the American public grows more fearful. McCain selects Guiliani as his VP and the torch of 9/11 inspires millions to re-elect a Republican to the White House. God save us...
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Posted by: Bobsays on Apr 7, 2007 2:01 AM
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» RE: Iran will be attacked this month
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: Hedda on Apr 7, 2007 5:10 AM
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Even a child knows that if he wants something and is running up against oposition from one parent , he will recruit the other parent as an ally to help plea his case .....as the two parents bicker amongst themselves, the child escapes the room and the debate..... he created a successful diversion. Now the child is free to do whatever because the parents are so involved in pleading their cause they don't even notice the child has left. On the other hand , and every child knows this as well ....if he can not get his parents into a heated debate because they side together against his wishes........He is proverbially screwed so to speak!!!! United we stand , divided we fall !!!!!!
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» RE: war will end...
Posted by: xbj
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Posted by: Doggycuny on Apr 7, 2007 5:51 PM
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» democratic promotion at home... so much for Noam the "anarchist". nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: Benjamin on Apr 8, 2007 11:55 AM
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» RE: Did US really support Russian invasion of Iran?
Posted by: fanny666
» Thanks for reminder on Blum's "Killing Hope"
Posted by: amacd
» RE: Thanks for reminder on Blum's "Killing Hope"
Posted by: fanny666
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 9, 2007 10:50 AM
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Posted by: xbj on Apr 9, 2007 11:50 AM
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Captain Kirk would have taken accurate stock of Israel's nukes, replicated them, and then given an equal amount to EVERY OTHER ARAB AND ISLAMIC COUNTRY IN THE REGION.
Thereby creating the PERFECT BALANCE OF POWER; MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) that would have certainly ASSURED peace in the Mideast, INDEFINITELY.
But you see, America isn't The Federation; America isn't a democracy, it is the evil Fascist Klingon Empire bent on taking over the entire Mideast. And that requires classic Klingon strategy; pick the weakest planet that will readily accept you as an ally (Israel); arm them out of all proportion to every other ally; and then destroy all their enemies one by one.
In the end, the Klingon turns on its own ally and takes it over.
This is the TRUE Amerikan design for the Mideast; it started with Iraq, will go on to Iran and Syria, and it will end with Saudi Arabia and finally, Israel.
Count on it. Israel has long already figured this out, and Saudi Arabia is waking up as well.
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