COMMENTS: 221
Will Vermont Secede from the Union?
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Vermont was once an independent republic, and it can be one again. We think the time to make that happen is now. Over the past 50 years, the U.S. government has grown too big, too corrupt and too aggressive toward the world, toward its own citizens and toward local democratic institutions. It has abandoned the democratic vision of its founders and eroded Americans' fundamental freedoms.
Vermont did not join the Union to become part of an empire.
Some of us therefore seek permission to leave.
A decade before the War of Independence, Vermont became New England's first frontier, settled by pioneers escaping colonial bondage who hewed settlements across a lush region whose spine is the Green Mountains. These independent folk brought with them what Henry David Thoreau called the "true American Congress" -- the New England town meeting, which is still the legislature for nearly all of Vermont's 237 towns. Here every citizen is a legislator who helps fashion the rules that govern the locality.
Today, however, Vermont no longer controls even its own National Guard, a domestic emergency force that is now employed in an imperial war 6,000 miles away. The 9/11 commission report says that "the American homeland is the planet." To defend this "homeland," the United States spends six times as much on its military as China, the next highest-spending nation, funding more than 730 military bases in more than 130 countries, abetted by more than 100 military space satellites and more than 100,000 seaborne battle-ready forces. This is the greatest military colossus ever forged.
Few heed George Washington's Farewell Address, which warned against the danger of a permanent large standing army that "can be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." Or that of a later general-become-president: "We must never let the weight of [the military-industrial complex] endanger our liberties or democratic processes." Dwight D. Eisenhower pointedly included the word "congressional" after "military-industrial" but allowed his advisers to excise it. That word completes a true description of the hidden threat to democracy in the United States.
The two of us are typical of the diversity of Vermont's secessionist movement: one descended from old Vermonter stock, the other a more recent arrival -- a "flatlander" from down country. Our Vermont homeland remains economically conservative and socially liberal. And the love of freedom runs deep in its psyche.
Vermont seceded from the British Empire in 1777 and stood free for 14 years, until 1791. Its constitution -- which preceded the U.S. Constitution by more than a decade -- was the first to prohibit slavery in the New World and to guarantee universal manhood suffrage. Vermont issued its own currency, ran its own postal service, developed its own foreign relations, grew its own food, made its own roads and paid for its own militia. No other state, not even Texas, governed itself more thoroughly or longer before giving up its nationhood and joining the Union.
But the seeds of disunion have been growing since the beginning. Vermont more or less sat out the War of 1812, and its governor ordered troops fighting the British to disengage and come home. Vermont fought the Civil War primarily to end slavery; Abraham Lincoln did so primarily to save the Union. Vermont's record on the slavery issue was so strong that Georgia's legislature resolved that a ditch be dug around the "pestiferous" state and it be floated out to sea.
After the Great Flood of 1927, the worst natural disaster in the state's history, President Calvin Coolidge (a Vermonter) offered help. Vermont's governor replied, "Vermont will take care of its own." In 1936, town meetings rejected a huge federal highway referendum that would have blacktopped the Green Mountain crest line from Massachusetts to Canada.
Nor did Vermont sign on when imperial Washington demanded that the state raise its drinking age from 18 to 21 in 1985. The federal government thereupon resorted to its favored tactic, blackmail. Raise your drinking age, said Ronald Reagan, or we'll take away the money you need to keep the interstates paved. Vermont took its case for state control to the Supreme Court -- and lost.
It's quite simple. The United States has destroyed the 10th Amendment, which says that "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
The present movement for secession has been gathering steam for a decade and a half. In preparation for Vermont's bicentennial in 1991, public debates -- moderated by then-Lt. Gov. Howard Dean -- were held in seven towns before crowds that averaged 230 citizens. At the end of each, Dean asked all those in favor of Vermont's seceding from the Union to stand and be counted. In town after town, solid majorities stood. The final count: 999 (62 percent) for secession and 608 opposed.
In early 2003, transplanted Southerner and retired Duke University economics professor Thomas Naylor gave a speech at Johnson State College opposing the Iraq war. When he pitched the idea of secession to the crowd, he saw many eyes "light up," he said. Later that year, he and several others started a loosely organized movement (now a think tank) called the Second Vermont Republic, which has an independent quarterly journal, Vermont Commons, and a Web site.
In October 2005, about 300 Vermonters attended a statewide convention on the question of secession. Six months later, the annual Vermont Poll of the University of Vermont's Center for Rural Studies found that about 8 percent of respondents replied "yes" to peaceful secession, arguably making Vermont foremost among the many states with secessionist movements (including Alaska, California, Hawaii, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Texas).
We secessionists believe that the 350-year swing of history's pendulum toward large, centralized imperial states is once again reversing itself.
Why? First, the cost of oil and gas. According to urban planner James Howard Kunstler, "Anything organized on a gigantic scale ... will probably falter in the energy-scarce future." Second, third-wave technology is as inherently democratic and decentralist as second-wave technology was authoritarian and centralist. Gov. Jim Douglas wants Vermont to be the first "e-state," making broadband Internet access available to every household and business in the state by 2010. Vermont will soon be fully wired into the global social commons.
Against this backdrop, secessionists from all over the state will gather in June to plan a grass-roots campaign to get at least 200 towns to vote by 2012 on independence. We believe that one outcome of this meeting will be dialogues among different communities of Vermonters committed to achieving local economic vitality, be they farmers, entrepreneurs, bankers, merchants, lawyers, independent media providers, construction workers, manufacturers, artists, entertainers or anyone else with a stake in Vermont's future -- anyone for whom freedom is not just a slogan.
If Vermonters succeed in once again inventing vibrant local economies, these in turn may reinvigorate the small-scale democratic town meeting tradition, the true American Congress, and re-create the rudiments of a republic once again able to make its own way in the world. The once and future republic of Vermont.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Temporary on Apr 3, 2007 12:29 AM
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» I think their intent is to do it legally, rather than violently.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I think their intent is to do it legally, rather than violently.
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I think their intent is to do it legally, rather than violently.
Posted by: 0hmygod
» you constantly post this link
Posted by: psychochurch
» Unfortunately its too late,,,, we should have done that back when it could have made a diff.
Posted by: Prophit
» Why Wait.........
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Why Wait.........
Posted by: grolan
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Posted by: drew on Apr 3, 2007 1:24 AM
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» Actually, what is great is you can apply for asylum.... LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» Illegal immigrants = New Yorkers!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Illegal immigrants = Bushes!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Illegal immigrants = New Yorkers!
Posted by: Jayzer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gjames on Apr 3, 2007 2:45 AM
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» Bad Example
Posted by: psychochurch
» Bingo
Posted by: fifthworld
» Berry berry bad example
Posted by: fifthworld
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ISlamIslam on Apr 3, 2007 3:25 AM
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» don't worry, people won't pour into Vermont
Posted by: deborama
» Have you ever BEEN to vermont??? Winter would drive most people away.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Thats one year. What was the year before that like? In Boston we got a few feet of snow.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Thats one year. What was the year before that like? In Boston we got a few feet of snow.
Posted by: geen
» RE: Have you ever BEEN to vermont??? Winter would drive most people away.
Posted by: bronx_girl
» RE: Have you ever BEEN to vermont??? Winter would drive most people away.
Posted by: cottontail
» So you agree unrestricted immigration would not be a good thing?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 3, 2007 3:57 AM
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You will be crushed just like every other "rebellion" in America's history (there are quite a few more than the civil war, check your history books kiddo).
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» RE: Are you retarded?
Posted by: fallout1
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: bttl
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: fallout1
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Are you retarded?
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: My use was appropriate for today's colloquial speech, N/T
Posted by: ateo
» RE: My use was appropriate for today's colloquial speech, N/T
Posted by: Bubba3000
» My use of the word JACKASS is appropriate for today's colloquial speech... you jackass. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Native Vermonters pronounce it "retahded"
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Native Vermonters pronounce it "retahded"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Vermont can secede ECONOMICALLY by outlawing franchises....
Posted by: psychochurch
» Thoreau seceded as an individual in 1845
Posted by: Beck
» RE: How many times did he wind up in prison again? Been a while since Walden...N/T
Posted by: ateo
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 3, 2007 4:16 AM
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I admire the sentiment expressed in this article and it appeals to me on a personal level as I have certain libertarian leanings. However, that ship has sailed. With each passing decade the control of the federal government expands and the freedoms of the individual American are reduced. The only legitimate purpose of an article such as this would be to bring the fact that the United States as it is today is not the United States intended by our founding fathers and the constitution. In that, it is successful. However, to those with at least a rudimentary grasp of history, the constitution, and the federal government today it seems ridiculous.
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» Well, I think your wrong..... the system only works if we cooperate, if we don't, then it falls...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Well, I think your wrong..... the system only works if we cooperate, if we don't, then it falls...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Interesting
Posted by: cottontail
» Bernie Sanders is a "socialist," therefore Vermont is full of "crackpots"
Posted by: eddie torres
» States have no right to secede from the United States, that was proven in the civil war.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok, remove the word "proven" and reword the sentence...
Posted by: ateo
» You, my friend, have internalized the oppression
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Sure, I'll play this game
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Interesting
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: Vronsky on Apr 3, 2007 4:36 AM
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Learn from us, and don't believe the scaremongers. It might take a few decades with a distinct feeling of getting nowhere, but the cards are stacked in your favour. Little by little people will realise that the alternatives are exhausted, and once they move over to your side they don't go back. Make contact with other separatist movements (don't believe the black propaganda about them) and you will get sympathetic encouragement. Small is beautiful.
But: given the behaviour of the imbeciles currently running your country I just don't know if there's enough time left on the clock.
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» RE: I saw Braveheart, I know what fate awaits your "Scottish independence" movement
Posted by: ateo
» Maybe you should extend your Mel Gibson catalog to include The Patriot as well. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» The REAL William Wallace was a psycopath
Posted by: moflard
» Scotland has less to worry about than Vermont
Posted by: Rod from Canada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: makeadifference on Apr 3, 2007 4:42 AM
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» The National ID has already been overturned in 22 states so how do they think they can....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: If a national ID is put in place with either RFID or "smart chip" technology...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Scary stuff, LINK
Posted by: ateo
» National ID's are just more of the same with more tracking ability
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: If a national ID is put in place with either RFID or "smart chip" technology...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: The National ID has already been overturned in 22 states so how do they think they can....
Posted by: JMorse
» RE: Because federal law preempts state law...
Posted by: EagleMB
» First they start with seniors, criminals, the mentally incompetant and babies
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Yeah for Vermont & New Hampshire!
Posted by: tya
» RE: Yeah for Vermont & New Hampshire!
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Yeah for Vermont & New Hampshire!
Posted by: tya
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 3, 2007 6:02 AM
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» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: paschn
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: xenacat
» Not all Texans are Republican
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: Not all Texans are Republican
Posted by: xenacat
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» What does that say about me? NOTHING!
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: What does that say about me? NOTHING!
Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» LOL, I offered to do petitions to make Texas a separate country....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alterpa123 on Apr 3, 2007 6:13 AM
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Now instead of such actions being plainly prohibited by the U.S. Constitution, there would be no recourse whatesoever. Put simply, no overarching legal system would be in place to guarantee or protect anyone's rights, the burden would be placed solely within the narrow discretion of these particular "countries." Remember, the white nationalists want their own state too, as do a host of other miscreants and would-be tyrants. You don't get to opt out, you don't get to leave just because things are difficult right now and you don't like it. Stop throwing a tantrum, stop hyperventilating, take a deep breath and actually think through what you are proposing. Bad Idea.
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» RE: Smacked by relativism
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: If Vermont can leave...
Posted by: ateo
» They can... if they can get a state to do it in. In theory they can.. in practice, they can't. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Thanks for the "sir" Mr. Ludd
Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: They can... if they can get a state to do it in. In theory they can.. in practice, they can't. nm
Posted by: alterpa123
» Well, so what? What has ever stopped bad governments from being formed?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, so what? What has ever stopped bad governments from being formed?
Posted by: alterpa123
» Here? The Constitution. It has??????
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Smacked by relativism - I agree.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» some will leave, some will try to change. If the problem is huge, both approaches are necessary
Posted by: Beck
» READ THE CSA CONSTITUTION SOMETIME
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: LMNOP on Apr 3, 2007 6:14 AM
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AP - According to interim president Tom DeLay, who is filling in for president Mark Foley while the latter completes his community service, Vermont has been stockpiling biological and nuclear weapons of mass destruction despite weeks of sanctions against maple syrup.
To the consternation of the United Nations, which Secretary of State Jenna Bush once again declared "irrelevant" and "grodie", American troops have joined the rest of the coalition of the willing (Antarctica, Aruba, Texas and Bangladesh) which had already amassed at the New Hampshire border and were waiting at a nearby Denny's for the Americans to show up.
Troops (don't forget to support them with a ribbon magnet!) are gathering on the banks of the Connecticut river, poised to strike if neither chancellor Howard Dean nor vice-chancellor Bernie Sanders stands down.
From his minimum security cell, vice-president DeLay text messaged, "We're fighting the sapsuckers there so that we don't have to fight them here'"
This will extend the front against terrorism to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, North Korea, Uzbekistan, Mexico, Canada, Prussia, Rhodesia, Atlantis, Oz and New Jersey.
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» RE: Lawl, good job...yea, I said "lawl", deal
Posted by: ateo
» RE: The War With Vermont
Posted by: waitingforthefall
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Apr 3, 2007 6:26 AM
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» RE: It has been tried but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» MASS ALMOST DID IN SECEDE IN 1812. NYC IN 1862
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Do you actually believe this?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Do you actually believe this?
Posted by: tya
» RE: Do you actually believe this?
Posted by: EagleMB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 3, 2007 6:44 AM
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If only Northern California, Oregon, and Washington would secede....
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» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: richardpmendola
» Well, you might get it to happen in Or and Wa except...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, you might get it to happen in Or and Wa except...
Posted by: staringatthesun
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Ecotopia...
Posted by: badkitty
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» WE COULD HAVE HAD THEM OUTTA HERE IN 1860
Posted by: LMNOP
» Oh, Canada, Canada, where for art thou, Canada
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Oh, Canada, Canada, where for art thou, Canada
Posted by: tya
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jesse on Apr 3, 2007 6:58 AM
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The old town meeting form of government works great for living in towns and cities with only a few people, but is completely unworkable for anything much larger. Burlington, Vermont, the state's largest city, has only 40,000 people and does not operate like that. It can't.
There is also a lot of appealing to this utopian vision of semi-rural states. Nice enough, but your semi-rural (and very nice, don't get me wrong) state depends on a host of things that the federal government does. Imagine Vermont trying to be self-sufficient in food, for example. It isn't possible in a place where the growing season is four months long and the population is more than a few thousand. I'm not saying the government provides food directly, but it does guarantee a whole lot of stuff that enables the food to get there.
Now, if we all lived like Amish farmers, what Bryan and Baldwin talk about makes more sense. But I don't think many Vermonters want to live like that. And it would require a serious reduction in the population.
More importantly, the whole argument that government from Washington is flawed because of remoteness sounds intuitive, but there isn't really a lot of good evidence that it matters. After all, it was governments that were, in their way, just as liberterian (and local) in the South that that slavery was a fine idea. And it is worth noting that Vermont joined the U.S. voluntarily, as such things go, and other states did the same. Going it alone was just not a practical or viable option in 1800 and it isn't now.
Yes, Washington seems remote to most people, but a centralized system delivers a lot of benefits that these two guys at best gloss over. Vermont may have refused federal help for one disaster, but I recall more than one winter when they weren't so proud. (Burlington airport, winter storms, 'nuff said). And there are things that all your rock-ribbed pioneer spirit won't help with. Imagine the human cost if Luoisiana had refused federal help. Banking systems exist because there is a federal government in the first place. And sorry, banks are just plain necessary if your economy operates on anything other than barter.
The state has recieved a certain amount of federal largesse to its farmers. General Electric, which was supported by large military contracts at the Burlington plant, was the biggest employer at one time. The state still hasn't recovered from the loss of those jobs.
Secession didn't fly among the Quebecois, who have far more reson to do it. I doubt such is that great a solution for Vermont.
More disturbing is their old saw that new technologies are naturally democratizing. Um, watching emails, anyone? I'm not saying they are ever and always wrong about it, but that the issues they raise are more complicated than that.
Also, the idea that the government is "too big" or that organizing on a large scale is energy dependent is rather flawed, I think. The Mongols ran and administered competently the largest land empire ever, and they didn't have oil, coal, or cars. What they did have were roads and a very well-organized bureaucracy.
Decentralization has an emotional appeal, but in and of itself it doesn't necessarily mean a more democratic system. Europe was run by city-states and small territories for centuries, and only one or two created anything like a democratic tradition. That would say to me that size in itself isn't the issue.
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» RE: not new and misses the point
Posted by: tya
» the vote in PQ was close each time
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: the vote in PQ was close each time
Posted by: tya
» Nice to read another post from you, Jesse
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: davidbdr on Apr 3, 2007 7:11 AM
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The idea of Vermont seceding might seem silly to you but it IS their right. If you won't fight for your rights, what will you fight for? Obviously, since 2000, not a whole hell of a lot. Chanting and waving placards in marches is not a fight. You are being laughed at by those in power because they know you have no real will for drastic change. Is American Idol on tonight? Enjoy and shut up until you have something real to offer.
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» RE: What is obviously wrong...
Posted by: freedom_rings
» RE: Good luck with your mass suicide
Posted by: ateo
» Good luck living under tyrany, you coward. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» The Greatest Generation we're not
Posted by: Beck
» Conservatives Would Be For Britain
Posted by: hole11
» RE: What is obviously wrong...
Posted by: davidg
» THE FORMER STATES OF THE SOVIET UNION SECEDED.
Posted by: poppop_schell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Uncle Crabby on Apr 3, 2007 8:24 AM
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NOTHING!
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Posted by: Darrell Kern on Apr 3, 2007 8:25 AM
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I say kudos for trying, though. At least this kind of a move will show America and the world just how much the American people are finally over our corrupt government.
Its one hell of a powerful statement. And a very true one!
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Posted by: beverleec on Apr 3, 2007 8:35 AM
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» RE: Let's Be UNunited
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 3, 2007 8:35 AM
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Private Scott participated in the battles of Bennington and Saratoga, was captured at Fort Ann, New York, and shipped off to a British Army stockade in Canada. During his imprisonment, the Redcoats restrained him continuously with iron leg shackles that left incurable open sores.
If John were alive today and had the same fervent desire to live free, he would move to Canada and stay there permanently.
Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet, registered Republican, Goldwater conservative, RABID neocon-hater (like Barry) and the editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» Of course running to Canada is an option -- just like during the Vietnam War -- but not for me.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Of course running to Canada is an option -- just like during the Vietnam War -- but not for me.
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 3, 2007 9:11 AM
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Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Apr 3, 2007 9:15 AM
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» What do you expect from a populace..
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» I should add...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: sausage on Apr 3, 2007 9:27 AM
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» Did the law of an unjust government stop our forefathers? Should it have??? nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Didn't The Civil War settle this?
Posted by: pocomoco
» There Is Nothing Unconstitutional About Seceding
Posted by: hole11
» RE: There Is Nothing Unconstitutional About Seceding
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: eddie torres on Apr 3, 2007 9:32 AM
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The "crackpots" of Bernie Sanders' "socialist" Vermont will soon be associated with the Progressive movement of the Democratic Party. Those "crazy" liberal ideas like universal healthcare and election reform will be watered down and mainstreamed because, after all, who wants to be seen agreeing with those "crazy" Progressives? And Democratic Party candidates will no longer have to seriously consider issues that would erode the status quo.
Fear not. Your Owners know how to get things done.
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Posted by: SamFox on Apr 3, 2007 9:58 AM
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SamFox
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 3, 2007 9:59 AM
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» Uhm...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: It's time to redefine socialism
Posted by: EagleMB
» It requires government...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: Raj
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: Raj
» Sorry, you're wrong.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Sorry, you're wrong.
Posted by: EagleMB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dayahka on Apr 3, 2007 10:10 AM
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Posted by: gellero on Apr 3, 2007 10:31 AM
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» History
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Democrats and the Nanny State
Posted by: lmwilker
» RE: AlterNeters=Federalists
Posted by: eyesunderwater
» LOL
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Guilty!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veive on Apr 3, 2007 11:40 AM
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1) Get rid of the Bush Bunch ASAP.
2) Bring manufacturing back to America.
3) Get corporate America off its profit at all costs addiction.
4) Let's start start thinking about Team America instead of the present "screw your neighbor before he screws you" kick we're on.
These four steps will take care of most of our problems.
The Middle Class will make a comeback and it's the Middle Class that defined America when it was working. The rest of the problems, ie, healthcare, education, etc will be taken care of with relative ease.
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» RE: Fix the problems don't run from them
Posted by: EagleMB
» Not only that but he didn't mention agriculture which is the foundation...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Fix the problems don't run from them
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Fix the problems don't run from them
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: jimlup on Apr 3, 2007 2:00 PM
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If Vermont leaves, I might immigrate! Go Vermont!
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» RE: Michigan Too!
Posted by: tya
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Posted by: cash on Apr 3, 2007 2:01 PM
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It was written into our state constitution in 1777 that we did not recognize slavery...that it was immoral...
We are recognized, historically, no matter how vague that may seem these days, as the first modern state which did not accept slavery...the point being is that we never had to disavow slavery...because our state was founded with those ideas, not ideals, in mind...and if you might take the time to check it out, our state insures modern individual rights moreso than any other in our constitution...our legislators, even now, do not waste time worrying neurotically about what is going on in our neighbor's bedroom...or closet...there are far bigger issues...
Our constitution was the model, not only for the america's Bill of Rights...but when the french needed a template during their revolution for a rights of man document....they pretty much looked at Vermont's as the way to go...so before you throw your ideas in on whether we should form our own republic...educate yourselves....
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Posted by: brainvib on Apr 3, 2007 2:13 PM
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Talk about it while you still can(It might even now may be illegal), but please, don't try it. The US doesn't need any more blood on its hands or bodies in prisons. Vermont is too
scenic and beautiful to be desolated.
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Posted by: tya on Apr 3, 2007 2:33 PM
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» RE: Can you find Ma on a map? Hint, it is in the Northeast
Posted by: LibertyPatriot
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 3, 2007 2:54 PM
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Posted by: po cracka on Apr 3, 2007 4:07 PM
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Posted by: haystack1317 on Apr 3, 2007 8:53 PM
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» I disagree, its too late to change america, you should have thought of that 6 years ago,....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I disagree, its too late to change america
Posted by: haystack1317
» RE: Don't Waste Your Momentum...on AMERICA the BRAND
Posted by: YinRising
» RE: Don't Waste Your Momentum... AMEN!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: lordradish on Apr 4, 2007 7:08 AM
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Their leader, Thomas Naylor rants like a nutty cult leader. He said the bloggers were just trying to bring SVR down because they 'fear them', often citing the one poll (later revealed to be commissioned by SVR where '8% of VT'ers favor secession'. With the actual amount of people polled, that comes to about 48 people.
Word got out, and within a month, they had lost the support of the anarchists and many of the other liberals who had supported them. They even lost many of their pivotal members. They're even more irrelevant than they were before. If you want to know more:
Vermont Secession
or
coverage at Green Mountain Daily
or
coverage at five before chaos
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Posted by: haystack1317 on Apr 4, 2007 8:01 AM
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"The laws of this country do not prevent the strong from crushing the week. Don't deceive yourselves for a moment as to the power of great interests which now dominate our development... There are men in this country big enough to own the government of the United States. They are going to own it if they can."
Woodrow Wilson said those things. Other presidents have said the same things. Eisenhower did. The fight against big money is as old as Jefferson and Jackson. It's part of our story. We need to continue the fight, not run away from it.
If you want to do Bush a favor, put all your energy into secession movements and none towards working to change America from the inside. That would suit him and Cheney and Rove just fine. That's a number of progressives from whom they won't have to worry about real challenges.
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Posted by: ng1944 on Apr 4, 2007 9:01 AM
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Posted by: nopuppy on Apr 4, 2007 11:13 AM
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But a great idea, and maybe by then the federal will be so broke and so broken that Vermont can secede successfully. Great good luck, and I'll be crossing Lake Champlain in my kayak with my packed bags.
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Posted by: windgoddess_sf on Apr 4, 2007 11:26 AM
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As for TX - well, I've spent considerable time down there over the last 15 years due to some family living in Dallas. I grudgingly accepted that my brother's career transition, which required him to move from CA to TX, was going to be permanent. Guess what - found out that, indeed, not all Texans are Republican, that the state is astoundingly beautiful (I spent a week in Alpine, Big Bend area after Christmas - full of alt lifestyle types, urban refugees, cool music, cool people, good food, gorgeous scenery and skies) and I can't wait to get back and explore more. I don't want Dubya soiling TX - let him go off to his huge ranch in Paraguay, which he'll probably do anyway to escape any possibility of standing trial in the future.
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Posted by: charlieparisek on Apr 4, 2007 3:51 PM
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The immediate impact on legislation due to the reduction of red state senators and representatives would be refreshingly progressive.
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Posted by: davidg on Apr 5, 2007 10:17 AM
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Posted by: FreeVermont on Apr 5, 2007 7:27 PM
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Most of us involved in the Vermont independence effort are convinced that peaceable secession won't happen without a parallel decentralization and relocalization of our political and economic life. A tall order - but one already underway.
Read more about our efforts at our online newspaper and blog here at Vermont Commons.
FV,
Rob Williams, Vermont Commons (web)editor
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Posted by: Alan8 on Apr 6, 2007 6:25 AM
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You have supporters in ALL states. Even if your attempt is unsuccessful, you send a strong message.
For us non-Vermonters, there's the option of supporting a non-corrupt party like the Green Party, which accepts no corporate funding, and as a result supports CITIZENS' interests -- not corporate interests. Vote Green!
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» Launching www.FreeVermont.Net....
Posted by: FreeVermont
» RE: Go Vermont go!! Michigan supports you!
Posted by: waitingforthefall
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Posted by: linkep on Apr 6, 2007 7:45 AM
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» RE: A league of Nation States
Posted by: FreeVermont
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Posted by: patagonianomore on Apr 6, 2007 7:26 PM
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You're not getting the full picture about the Second Vermont Republic. The steering committee has ties to allegedly racist individuals and organizations such as the League of the South. When the public found out and vermont bloggers connected the obvious dots, the Second Vermont Republic lost a lot of interested Vermonters who liked the idea of secession. I don't know why they persist in digging in and claim nothing's wrong but until they renouce their ties to the League of the South and individuals associated with them, then this movement is toast. To be honest... it already is.
BELEIVE ME! You're not getting the full picture of this organization with this Washington Post article.
For more check out the following articles and blogs:
Second Vermont Republic tied to white supremacists
Secessionists or racists?
And by far the most definitive place to find their ties to racist organizations is here vermontsecession.blogspot.com
Folks, NOBODY in Vermont takes the Second Vermont Republic seriously. Theyre all a bunch of mental masturbators and stupid. They really shot themselves in the foot with their ties to racist secessionist organizations in the south and their main guru Thomas Naylor is a nut job with too many screws loose.
As far as their claim that 8 percent of Vermonters support sescession, they dont tell you everything about that poll conducted by the Center for Rural Studies of the University of Vermont. The SVR hid the polling specs data in all their publicity. For more info on their misinformation go check out the Friday, March 2, 2007 blog entry at Vermont Secession blogspot: Its called, Second Vermont Republic Hid Polling Specs Data.
And get this, the Middlebury Institute, the Second Vermont Republics think tank will be hosting the next seccesionist conference with guess who???? The League of the South. The hate groups will have a field day with this one. For all those interested, Vermonters say... Move along. Nothing to see here.
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» Tsk Tsk - A few points of clarification to counter all the name-calling here:
Posted by: FreeVermont
» RE: Tsk Tsk - A few points of clarification to counter all the name-calling here:
Posted by: patagonianomore
» Well said
Posted by: patagonianomore
» SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: patagonianomore
» RE: SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: lordradish
» RE: SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 7, 2007 2:05 PM
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BOTTOM LINE, THE SC HAS NEVER RULED ON SECESSION!!!!
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Posted by: waitingforthefall on Apr 7, 2007 2:06 PM
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However, should this noble idea succeed for Vermonters or ANY state within our lifetimes, what will stop Washington D.C. from waging the same campaign of covert and overt warfare on secessionist's politics, people and infrastructure that America has already mastered to keep the rest of the world under her thumb for generations?
I say it's better to hold the hand of the D.C. Devil then to be struck-down by it. Obviously there is no God on this earth, judging from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the haulocaust, Rwanda, the Armenian genocide, the extermination of the western hemispheres aboriginal inhabitants, America's right-wing Christian perversion and the horrors of the communist era; nope, no devine intervention there............so I guess somebody just counts the souls of the millions on their way up to wherever......
Thus, no supernatural force will intervene to save a soverign Vermont from whatever Pax Americana would do to her regardless of her people's high-mindedness and good intentions......and who knows how far or low tomorrow's "freely elected" and corporate-sanctioned American politicians will go to protect America's taxpaying sheeple from the seccessionist terrorist nation of Vermont; right there on our doorstep????
I say wait. Wait until the day that the Feds bankrupt the couuntry or as James H. Kunstler so elequently stated, I paraphrase:
when the Federal government can no longer answer the phones.... let alone run a police state.
Wait until the beast that feeds from our tax dollars and threatens every aspect of humanity and nature can no longer sustain itself in order to maintain the momentum of global conquest......
Then, perhaps the Jeffersonian ideal of a localized, agricultural, progressive and intellectual nation might be realized....once the PROFIT margin no longer remains palpable to the financial juggernauts who have hijacked America.
Then and only then should any of us make a move that would otherwise further jeapordize what illusion of freedom and self-esteem we can still enjoy under this crumbling illusion of a constitutional democracy.
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 7, 2007 2:12 PM
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At this convention a NEW Declaration of Independence was signed by the state chairs. I was there as state chair representing NC. A major goal was to work towards secession IF the central government refused to act Constitutionally as a Republic of Republics as put forth in the US Constitution.
I ran for Mayor of Aberdeen, NC on the NCSP ticket, garnering 3%+ of the vote. Unforunately, we had several agent prevocateurs who caused splits that resulted in a falling aprt of what looked like a very promising secessionist movement.
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Posted by: lordradish on Apr 7, 2007 4:35 PM
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Rob has also failed to tell you that as support on the left dried up for SVR, he jumped ship as well.
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Posted by: patagonianomore on Apr 7, 2007 7:58 PM
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Check out this entry at Vermont Scrapwood and then stop giving these SVR dipshits the time of day.
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Posted by: Temporary on Apr 3, 2007 12:29 AM
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» I think their intent is to do it legally, rather than violently.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I think their intent is to do it legally, rather than violently.
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I think their intent is to do it legally, rather than violently.
Posted by: 0hmygod
» you constantly post this link
Posted by: psychochurch
» Unfortunately its too late,,,, we should have done that back when it could have made a diff.
Posted by: Prophit
» Why Wait.........
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Why Wait.........
Posted by: grolan
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Posted by: drew on Apr 3, 2007 1:24 AM
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» Actually, what is great is you can apply for asylum.... LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» Illegal immigrants = New Yorkers!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Illegal immigrants = Bushes!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Illegal immigrants = New Yorkers!
Posted by: Jayzer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gjames on Apr 3, 2007 2:45 AM
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» Bad Example
Posted by: psychochurch
» Bingo
Posted by: fifthworld
» Berry berry bad example
Posted by: fifthworld
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Posted by: ISlamIslam on Apr 3, 2007 3:25 AM
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» don't worry, people won't pour into Vermont
Posted by: deborama
» Have you ever BEEN to vermont??? Winter would drive most people away.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Thats one year. What was the year before that like? In Boston we got a few feet of snow.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Thats one year. What was the year before that like? In Boston we got a few feet of snow.
Posted by: geen
» RE: Have you ever BEEN to vermont??? Winter would drive most people away.
Posted by: bronx_girl
» RE: Have you ever BEEN to vermont??? Winter would drive most people away.
Posted by: cottontail
» So you agree unrestricted immigration would not be a good thing?
Posted by: ISlamIslam
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Posted by: ateo on Apr 3, 2007 3:57 AM
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You will be crushed just like every other "rebellion" in America's history (there are quite a few more than the civil war, check your history books kiddo).
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» RE: Are you retarded?
Posted by: fallout1
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: bttl
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: fallout1
» RE: Let's get some facts straight...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Are you retarded?
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: My use was appropriate for today's colloquial speech, N/T
Posted by: ateo
» RE: My use was appropriate for today's colloquial speech, N/T
Posted by: Bubba3000
» My use of the word JACKASS is appropriate for today's colloquial speech... you jackass. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Native Vermonters pronounce it "retahded"
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Native Vermonters pronounce it "retahded"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» Vermont can secede ECONOMICALLY by outlawing franchises....
Posted by: psychochurch
» Thoreau seceded as an individual in 1845
Posted by: Beck
» RE: How many times did he wind up in prison again? Been a while since Walden...N/T
Posted by: ateo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ateo on Apr 3, 2007 4:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I admire the sentiment expressed in this article and it appeals to me on a personal level as I have certain libertarian leanings. However, that ship has sailed. With each passing decade the control of the federal government expands and the freedoms of the individual American are reduced. The only legitimate purpose of an article such as this would be to bring the fact that the United States as it is today is not the United States intended by our founding fathers and the constitution. In that, it is successful. However, to those with at least a rudimentary grasp of history, the constitution, and the federal government today it seems ridiculous.
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» Well, I think your wrong..... the system only works if we cooperate, if we don't, then it falls...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Well, I think your wrong..... the system only works if we cooperate, if we don't, then it falls...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Interesting
Posted by: cottontail
» Bernie Sanders is a "socialist," therefore Vermont is full of "crackpots"
Posted by: eddie torres
» States have no right to secede from the United States, that was proven in the civil war.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Ok, remove the word "proven" and reword the sentence...
Posted by: ateo
» You, my friend, have internalized the oppression
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Sure, I'll play this game
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Interesting
Posted by: Lincoln fan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Vronsky on Apr 3, 2007 4:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Learn from us, and don't believe the scaremongers. It might take a few decades with a distinct feeling of getting nowhere, but the cards are stacked in your favour. Little by little people will realise that the alternatives are exhausted, and once they move over to your side they don't go back. Make contact with other separatist movements (don't believe the black propaganda about them) and you will get sympathetic encouragement. Small is beautiful.
But: given the behaviour of the imbeciles currently running your country I just don't know if there's enough time left on the clock.
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» RE: I saw Braveheart, I know what fate awaits your "Scottish independence" movement
Posted by: ateo
» Maybe you should extend your Mel Gibson catalog to include The Patriot as well. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» The REAL William Wallace was a psycopath
Posted by: moflard
» Scotland has less to worry about than Vermont
Posted by: Rod from Canada
Comments are closed-
Posted by: makeadifference on Apr 3, 2007 4:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» The National ID has already been overturned in 22 states so how do they think they can....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: If a national ID is put in place with either RFID or "smart chip" technology...
Posted by: ateo
» RE: Scary stuff, LINK
Posted by: ateo
» National ID's are just more of the same with more tracking ability
Posted by: Krain61
» RE: If a national ID is put in place with either RFID or "smart chip" technology...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: The National ID has already been overturned in 22 states so how do they think they can....
Posted by: JMorse
» RE: Because federal law preempts state law...
Posted by: EagleMB
» First they start with seniors, criminals, the mentally incompetant and babies
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Yeah for Vermont & New Hampshire!
Posted by: tya
» RE: Yeah for Vermont & New Hampshire!
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Yeah for Vermont & New Hampshire!
Posted by: tya
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 3, 2007 6:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: paschn
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: xenacat
» Not all Texans are Republican
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: Not all Texans are Republican
Posted by: xenacat
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» What does that say about me? NOTHING!
Posted by: Bubba3000
» RE: What does that say about me? NOTHING!
Posted by: Uncle Crabby
» RE: I'd rather throw out Texas
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» LOL, I offered to do petitions to make Texas a separate country....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alterpa123 on Apr 3, 2007 6:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now instead of such actions being plainly prohibited by the U.S. Constitution, there would be no recourse whatesoever. Put simply, no overarching legal system would be in place to guarantee or protect anyone's rights, the burden would be placed solely within the narrow discretion of these particular "countries." Remember, the white nationalists want their own state too, as do a host of other miscreants and would-be tyrants. You don't get to opt out, you don't get to leave just because things are difficult right now and you don't like it. Stop throwing a tantrum, stop hyperventilating, take a deep breath and actually think through what you are proposing. Bad Idea.
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» RE: Smacked by relativism
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: If Vermont can leave...
Posted by: ateo
» They can... if they can get a state to do it in. In theory they can.. in practice, they can't. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Thanks for the "sir" Mr. Ludd
Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: They can... if they can get a state to do it in. In theory they can.. in practice, they can't. nm
Posted by: alterpa123
» Well, so what? What has ever stopped bad governments from being formed?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, so what? What has ever stopped bad governments from being formed?
Posted by: alterpa123
» Here? The Constitution. It has??????
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Smacked by relativism - I agree.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» some will leave, some will try to change. If the problem is huge, both approaches are necessary
Posted by: Beck
» READ THE CSA CONSTITUTION SOMETIME
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: LMNOP on Apr 3, 2007 6:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AP - According to interim president Tom DeLay, who is filling in for president Mark Foley while the latter completes his community service, Vermont has been stockpiling biological and nuclear weapons of mass destruction despite weeks of sanctions against maple syrup.
To the consternation of the United Nations, which Secretary of State Jenna Bush once again declared "irrelevant" and "grodie", American troops have joined the rest of the coalition of the willing (Antarctica, Aruba, Texas and Bangladesh) which had already amassed at the New Hampshire border and were waiting at a nearby Denny's for the Americans to show up.
Troops (don't forget to support them with a ribbon magnet!) are gathering on the banks of the Connecticut river, poised to strike if neither chancellor Howard Dean nor vice-chancellor Bernie Sanders stands down.
From his minimum security cell, vice-president DeLay text messaged, "We're fighting the sapsuckers there so that we don't have to fight them here'"
This will extend the front against terrorism to Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, North Korea, Uzbekistan, Mexico, Canada, Prussia, Rhodesia, Atlantis, Oz and New Jersey.
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» RE: Lawl, good job...yea, I said "lawl", deal
Posted by: ateo
» RE: The War With Vermont
Posted by: waitingforthefall
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Apr 3, 2007 6:26 AM
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» RE: It has been tried but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» MASS ALMOST DID IN SECEDE IN 1812. NYC IN 1862
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: Do you actually believe this?
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Do you actually believe this?
Posted by: tya
» RE: Do you actually believe this?
Posted by: EagleMB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 3, 2007 6:44 AM
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If only Northern California, Oregon, and Washington would secede....
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» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: richardpmendola
» Well, you might get it to happen in Or and Wa except...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well, you might get it to happen in Or and Wa except...
Posted by: staringatthesun
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Ecotopia...
Posted by: badkitty
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: cotopia...
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» WE COULD HAVE HAD THEM OUTTA HERE IN 1860
Posted by: LMNOP
» Oh, Canada, Canada, where for art thou, Canada
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Oh, Canada, Canada, where for art thou, Canada
Posted by: tya
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jesse on Apr 3, 2007 6:58 AM
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The old town meeting form of government works great for living in towns and cities with only a few people, but is completely unworkable for anything much larger. Burlington, Vermont, the state's largest city, has only 40,000 people and does not operate like that. It can't.
There is also a lot of appealing to this utopian vision of semi-rural states. Nice enough, but your semi-rural (and very nice, don't get me wrong) state depends on a host of things that the federal government does. Imagine Vermont trying to be self-sufficient in food, for example. It isn't possible in a place where the growing season is four months long and the population is more than a few thousand. I'm not saying the government provides food directly, but it does guarantee a whole lot of stuff that enables the food to get there.
Now, if we all lived like Amish farmers, what Bryan and Baldwin talk about makes more sense. But I don't think many Vermonters want to live like that. And it would require a serious reduction in the population.
More importantly, the whole argument that government from Washington is flawed because of remoteness sounds intuitive, but there isn't really a lot of good evidence that it matters. After all, it was governments that were, in their way, just as liberterian (and local) in the South that that slavery was a fine idea. And it is worth noting that Vermont joined the U.S. voluntarily, as such things go, and other states did the same. Going it alone was just not a practical or viable option in 1800 and it isn't now.
Yes, Washington seems remote to most people, but a centralized system delivers a lot of benefits that these two guys at best gloss over. Vermont may have refused federal help for one disaster, but I recall more than one winter when they weren't so proud. (Burlington airport, winter storms, 'nuff said). And there are things that all your rock-ribbed pioneer spirit won't help with. Imagine the human cost if Luoisiana had refused federal help. Banking systems exist because there is a federal government in the first place. And sorry, banks are just plain necessary if your economy operates on anything other than barter.
The state has recieved a certain amount of federal largesse to its farmers. General Electric, which was supported by large military contracts at the Burlington plant, was the biggest employer at one time. The state still hasn't recovered from the loss of those jobs.
Secession didn't fly among the Quebecois, who have far more reson to do it. I doubt such is that great a solution for Vermont.
More disturbing is their old saw that new technologies are naturally democratizing. Um, watching emails, anyone? I'm not saying they are ever and always wrong about it, but that the issues they raise are more complicated than that.
Also, the idea that the government is "too big" or that organizing on a large scale is energy dependent is rather flawed, I think. The Mongols ran and administered competently the largest land empire ever, and they didn't have oil, coal, or cars. What they did have were roads and a very well-organized bureaucracy.
Decentralization has an emotional appeal, but in and of itself it doesn't necessarily mean a more democratic system. Europe was run by city-states and small territories for centuries, and only one or two created anything like a democratic tradition. That would say to me that size in itself isn't the issue.
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» RE: not new and misses the point
Posted by: tya
» the vote in PQ was close each time
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: the vote in PQ was close each time
Posted by: tya
» Nice to read another post from you, Jesse
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: davidbdr on Apr 3, 2007 7:11 AM
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The idea of Vermont seceding might seem silly to you but it IS their right. If you won't fight for your rights, what will you fight for? Obviously, since 2000, not a whole hell of a lot. Chanting and waving placards in marches is not a fight. You are being laughed at by those in power because they know you have no real will for drastic change. Is American Idol on tonight? Enjoy and shut up until you have something real to offer.
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» RE: What is obviously wrong...
Posted by: freedom_rings
» RE: Good luck with your mass suicide
Posted by: ateo
» Good luck living under tyrany, you coward. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» The Greatest Generation we're not
Posted by: Beck
» Conservatives Would Be For Britain
Posted by: hole11
» RE: What is obviously wrong...
Posted by: davidg
» THE FORMER STATES OF THE SOVIET UNION SECEDED.
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: Uncle Crabby on Apr 3, 2007 8:24 AM
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NOTHING!
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Posted by: Darrell Kern on Apr 3, 2007 8:25 AM
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I say kudos for trying, though. At least this kind of a move will show America and the world just how much the American people are finally over our corrupt government.
Its one hell of a powerful statement. And a very true one!
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Posted by: beverleec on Apr 3, 2007 8:35 AM
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» RE: Let's Be UNunited
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: HughScott on Apr 3, 2007 8:35 AM
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Private Scott participated in the battles of Bennington and Saratoga, was captured at Fort Ann, New York, and shipped off to a British Army stockade in Canada. During his imprisonment, the Redcoats restrained him continuously with iron leg shackles that left incurable open sores.
If John were alive today and had the same fervent desire to live free, he would move to Canada and stay there permanently.
Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet, registered Republican, Goldwater conservative, RABID neocon-hater (like Barry) and the editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.
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» Of course running to Canada is an option -- just like during the Vietnam War -- but not for me.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Of course running to Canada is an option -- just like during the Vietnam War -- but not for me.
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Apr 3, 2007 9:11 AM
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Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Apr 3, 2007 9:15 AM
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» What do you expect from a populace..
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» I should add...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: sausage on Apr 3, 2007 9:27 AM
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» Did the law of an unjust government stop our forefathers? Should it have??? nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Didn't The Civil War settle this?
Posted by: pocomoco
» There Is Nothing Unconstitutional About Seceding
Posted by: hole11
» RE: There Is Nothing Unconstitutional About Seceding
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: eddie torres on Apr 3, 2007 9:32 AM
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The "crackpots" of Bernie Sanders' "socialist" Vermont will soon be associated with the Progressive movement of the Democratic Party. Those "crazy" liberal ideas like universal healthcare and election reform will be watered down and mainstreamed because, after all, who wants to be seen agreeing with those "crazy" Progressives? And Democratic Party candidates will no longer have to seriously consider issues that would erode the status quo.
Fear not. Your Owners know how to get things done.
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Posted by: SamFox on Apr 3, 2007 9:58 AM
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SamFox
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 3, 2007 9:59 AM
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» Uhm...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: It's time to redefine socialism
Posted by: EagleMB
» It requires government...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: Raj
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: It requires government...
Posted by: Raj
» Sorry, you're wrong.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Sorry, you're wrong.
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: dayahka on Apr 3, 2007 10:10 AM
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Posted by: gellero on Apr 3, 2007 10:31 AM
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» History
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Democrats and the Nanny State
Posted by: lmwilker
» RE: AlterNeters=Federalists
Posted by: eyesunderwater
» LOL
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Guilty!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: veive on Apr 3, 2007 11:40 AM
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1) Get rid of the Bush Bunch ASAP.
2) Bring manufacturing back to America.
3) Get corporate America off its profit at all costs addiction.
4) Let's start start thinking about Team America instead of the present "screw your neighbor before he screws you" kick we're on.
These four steps will take care of most of our problems.
The Middle Class will make a comeback and it's the Middle Class that defined America when it was working. The rest of the problems, ie, healthcare, education, etc will be taken care of with relative ease.
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» RE: Fix the problems don't run from them
Posted by: EagleMB
» Not only that but he didn't mention agriculture which is the foundation...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Fix the problems don't run from them
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Fix the problems don't run from them
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: jimlup on Apr 3, 2007 2:00 PM
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If Vermont leaves, I might immigrate! Go Vermont!
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» RE: Michigan Too!
Posted by: tya
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Posted by: cash on Apr 3, 2007 2:01 PM
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It was written into our state constitution in 1777 that we did not recognize slavery...that it was immoral...
We are recognized, historically, no matter how vague that may seem these days, as the first modern state which did not accept slavery...the point being is that we never had to disavow slavery...because our state was founded with those ideas, not ideals, in mind...and if you might take the time to check it out, our state insures modern individual rights moreso than any other in our constitution...our legislators, even now, do not waste time worrying neurotically about what is going on in our neighbor's bedroom...or closet...there are far bigger issues...
Our constitution was the model, not only for the america's Bill of Rights...but when the french needed a template during their revolution for a rights of man document....they pretty much looked at Vermont's as the way to go...so before you throw your ideas in on whether we should form our own republic...educate yourselves....
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Posted by: brainvib on Apr 3, 2007 2:13 PM
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Talk about it while you still can(It might even now may be illegal), but please, don't try it. The US doesn't need any more blood on its hands or bodies in prisons. Vermont is too
scenic and beautiful to be desolated.
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Posted by: tya on Apr 3, 2007 2:33 PM
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» RE: Can you find Ma on a map? Hint, it is in the Northeast
Posted by: LibertyPatriot
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 3, 2007 2:54 PM
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Posted by: po cracka on Apr 3, 2007 4:07 PM
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Posted by: haystack1317 on Apr 3, 2007 8:53 PM
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» I disagree, its too late to change america, you should have thought of that 6 years ago,....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I disagree, its too late to change america
Posted by: haystack1317
» RE: Don't Waste Your Momentum...on AMERICA the BRAND
Posted by: YinRising
» RE: Don't Waste Your Momentum... AMEN!
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: lordradish on Apr 4, 2007 7:08 AM
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Their leader, Thomas Naylor rants like a nutty cult leader. He said the bloggers were just trying to bring SVR down because they 'fear them', often citing the one poll (later revealed to be commissioned by SVR where '8% of VT'ers favor secession'. With the actual amount of people polled, that comes to about 48 people.
Word got out, and within a month, they had lost the support of the anarchists and many of the other liberals who had supported them. They even lost many of their pivotal members. They're even more irrelevant than they were before. If you want to know more:
Vermont Secession
or
coverage at Green Mountain Daily
or
coverage at five before chaos
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Posted by: haystack1317 on Apr 4, 2007 8:01 AM
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"The laws of this country do not prevent the strong from crushing the week. Don't deceive yourselves for a moment as to the power of great interests which now dominate our development... There are men in this country big enough to own the government of the United States. They are going to own it if they can."
Woodrow Wilson said those things. Other presidents have said the same things. Eisenhower did. The fight against big money is as old as Jefferson and Jackson. It's part of our story. We need to continue the fight, not run away from it.
If you want to do Bush a favor, put all your energy into secession movements and none towards working to change America from the inside. That would suit him and Cheney and Rove just fine. That's a number of progressives from whom they won't have to worry about real challenges.
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Posted by: ng1944 on Apr 4, 2007 9:01 AM
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Posted by: nopuppy on Apr 4, 2007 11:13 AM
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But a great idea, and maybe by then the federal will be so broke and so broken that Vermont can secede successfully. Great good luck, and I'll be crossing Lake Champlain in my kayak with my packed bags.
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Posted by: windgoddess_sf on Apr 4, 2007 11:26 AM
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As for TX - well, I've spent considerable time down there over the last 15 years due to some family living in Dallas. I grudgingly accepted that my brother's career transition, which required him to move from CA to TX, was going to be permanent. Guess what - found out that, indeed, not all Texans are Republican, that the state is astoundingly beautiful (I spent a week in Alpine, Big Bend area after Christmas - full of alt lifestyle types, urban refugees, cool music, cool people, good food, gorgeous scenery and skies) and I can't wait to get back and explore more. I don't want Dubya soiling TX - let him go off to his huge ranch in Paraguay, which he'll probably do anyway to escape any possibility of standing trial in the future.
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Posted by: charlieparisek on Apr 4, 2007 3:51 PM
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The immediate impact on legislation due to the reduction of red state senators and representatives would be refreshingly progressive.
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Posted by: davidg on Apr 5, 2007 10:17 AM
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Posted by: FreeVermont on Apr 5, 2007 7:27 PM
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Most of us involved in the Vermont independence effort are convinced that peaceable secession won't happen without a parallel decentralization and relocalization of our political and economic life. A tall order - but one already underway.
Read more about our efforts at our online newspaper and blog here at Vermont Commons.
FV,
Rob Williams, Vermont Commons (web)editor
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Posted by: Alan8 on Apr 6, 2007 6:25 AM
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You have supporters in ALL states. Even if your attempt is unsuccessful, you send a strong message.
For us non-Vermonters, there's the option of supporting a non-corrupt party like the Green Party, which accepts no corporate funding, and as a result supports CITIZENS' interests -- not corporate interests. Vote Green!
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» Launching www.FreeVermont.Net....
Posted by: FreeVermont
» RE: Go Vermont go!! Michigan supports you!
Posted by: waitingforthefall
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Posted by: linkep on Apr 6, 2007 7:45 AM
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» RE: A league of Nation States
Posted by: FreeVermont
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Posted by: patagonianomore on Apr 6, 2007 7:26 PM
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You're not getting the full picture about the Second Vermont Republic. The steering committee has ties to allegedly racist individuals and organizations such as the League of the South. When the public found out and vermont bloggers connected the obvious dots, the Second Vermont Republic lost a lot of interested Vermonters who liked the idea of secession. I don't know why they persist in digging in and claim nothing's wrong but until they renouce their ties to the League of the South and individuals associated with them, then this movement is toast. To be honest... it already is.
BELEIVE ME! You're not getting the full picture of this organization with this Washington Post article.
For more check out the following articles and blogs:
Second Vermont Republic tied to white supremacists
Secessionists or racists?
And by far the most definitive place to find their ties to racist organizations is here vermontsecession.blogspot.com
Folks, NOBODY in Vermont takes the Second Vermont Republic seriously. Theyre all a bunch of mental masturbators and stupid. They really shot themselves in the foot with their ties to racist secessionist organizations in the south and their main guru Thomas Naylor is a nut job with too many screws loose.
As far as their claim that 8 percent of Vermonters support sescession, they dont tell you everything about that poll conducted by the Center for Rural Studies of the University of Vermont. The SVR hid the polling specs data in all their publicity. For more info on their misinformation go check out the Friday, March 2, 2007 blog entry at Vermont Secession blogspot: Its called, Second Vermont Republic Hid Polling Specs Data.
And get this, the Middlebury Institute, the Second Vermont Republics think tank will be hosting the next seccesionist conference with guess who???? The League of the South. The hate groups will have a field day with this one. For all those interested, Vermonters say... Move along. Nothing to see here.
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» Tsk Tsk - A few points of clarification to counter all the name-calling here:
Posted by: FreeVermont
» RE: Tsk Tsk - A few points of clarification to counter all the name-calling here:
Posted by: patagonianomore
» Well said
Posted by: patagonianomore
» SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: patagonianomore
» RE: SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: lordradish
» RE: SMEAR ARTISTS OF ALL SECESSIONIST MOVEMENTS ARE AGENT PROCATEURS.
Posted by: poppop_schell
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 7, 2007 2:05 PM
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BOTTOM LINE, THE SC HAS NEVER RULED ON SECESSION!!!!
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Posted by: waitingforthefall on Apr 7, 2007 2:06 PM
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However, should this noble idea succeed for Vermonters or ANY state within our lifetimes, what will stop Washington D.C. from waging the same campaign of covert and overt warfare on secessionist's politics, people and infrastructure that America has already mastered to keep the rest of the world under her thumb for generations?
I say it's better to hold the hand of the D.C. Devil then to be struck-down by it. Obviously there is no God on this earth, judging from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the haulocaust, Rwanda, the Armenian genocide, the extermination of the western hemispheres aboriginal inhabitants, America's right-wing Christian perversion and the horrors of the communist era; nope, no devine intervention there............so I guess somebody just counts the souls of the millions on their way up to wherever......
Thus, no supernatural force will intervene to save a soverign Vermont from whatever Pax Americana would do to her regardless of her people's high-mindedness and good intentions......and who knows how far or low tomorrow's "freely elected" and corporate-sanctioned American politicians will go to protect America's taxpaying sheeple from the seccessionist terrorist nation of Vermont; right there on our doorstep????
I say wait. Wait until the day that the Feds bankrupt the couuntry or as James H. Kunstler so elequently stated, I paraphrase:
when the Federal government can no longer answer the phones.... let alone run a police state.
Wait until the beast that feeds from our tax dollars and threatens every aspect of humanity and nature can no longer sustain itself in order to maintain the momentum of global conquest......
Then, perhaps the Jeffersonian ideal of a localized, agricultural, progressive and intellectual nation might be realized....once the PROFIT margin no longer remains palpable to the financial juggernauts who have hijacked America.
Then and only then should any of us make a move that would otherwise further jeapordize what illusion of freedom and self-esteem we can still enjoy under this crumbling illusion of a constitutional democracy.
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Apr 7, 2007 2:12 PM
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At this convention a NEW Declaration of Independence was signed by the state chairs. I was there as state chair representing NC. A major goal was to work towards secession IF the central government refused to act Constitutionally as a Republic of Republics as put forth in the US Constitution.
I ran for Mayor of Aberdeen, NC on the NCSP ticket, garnering 3%+ of the vote. Unforunately, we had several agent prevocateurs who caused splits that resulted in a falling aprt of what looked like a very promising secessionist movement.
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Posted by: lordradish on Apr 7, 2007 4:35 PM
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Rob has also failed to tell you that as support on the left dried up for SVR, he jumped ship as well.
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Posted by: patagonianomore on Apr 7, 2007 7:58 PM
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Check out this entry at Vermont Scrapwood and then stop giving these SVR dipshits the time of day.
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