"Signs, miracles and wonders occur not only in the daily life of Christians but in history, science, medicine and logic."

And the prblem with miracles is that like beauty, they are in the eye of the beholder. Your house was spared by a tornado, while your neighbor's was destroyed? Your good fortune is a "miracle," while their bad fortune is "God's plan," or some such rot. Why isn't the destruction a miracle? Just because something is terrible does not make it any less miraculous. One can find God and Satan in anything, if one chooses to. Maybe Satan saved your life because he has evil plans for you later. God actually wanted you dead. If Satan is a real force in daily life, this is certainly logivcally possible. None of the Christian right-wingnuts ever consider this possibility. Once they do, their feel-good theology crumbles like a communion wafer under pounding horses' hooves.

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I keep wondering what can be done to counteract this descent into totalitarianism under the guise of religion. How can so many people be deceived?

I saw this coming back when Reagan was president. It scared me back then, and I'm really nervous now. I don't want to live in thier world, but I don't know what can be done to defeat them.

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"The museum has a theater equipped with seats that shake and gadgets that spray mist at the audience as the story of God's six-day creation of the world unfolds on the screen and the sound system rocks the auditorium."

HAHAHA! Please! This is not a museum, its fucking Disneyland!

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Dinosaurs turned mean because Eve ate the apple. I knew it was her fault.

The baby dinosaur explanation makes sense. The grown-up dinosaurs were tall enough to keep their heads above the water, so there was no need for them to ride on the Ark.

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Baby dinosaurs on Noah's ark.

A T. Rex opening a coconut.

Several million of my neurons just took their own lives in silent protest.

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"T-Rex had such big teeth, the museum explains, so it could open coconuts."

I mean, really.

The article makes an excellent point. Funny how the same people who refuse any form of proper factual inquiry into their own beliefs leap up and down like a troupe of excited circus monkeys the minute any fact comes along that can be dressed up to support their own cause.

The parallels between the rise of the Christian right in the USA from 1980-now and the rise of the Nazi party in Germany from 1920-33 are becoming harder and harder to ignore.

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I don't think I could live in a country that produced this level of fantasy and tried to sell it as fact:

"T-Rex had such big teeth, the museum explains, so it could open coconuts."

You poor bastards. How do you do it?

Sounds like the USofA is becoming ever more fundamentalist.

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that there is not one single bible in our house
we didn't take the kids to any church while growing up
made sure that any summer vacation camps or activities were religion free
didn't let the kids play with christians

for me, read the old testament as a series of oral histories and as a full book without the little side numbers in high school, have never read the new testiment or any part of it, don't want to either

we managed somehow to raise kids who are sane, caring, critical thinking adults without corrupting them!

enough said, back to coffee.... morning all!!! :)

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If reasonable people really want to do something to stop society's descent into ignorance at the hands of religious leaders and political manipulators, they must get active and openly condemn any overt public display of religious thought and deed. Fundies, as well as other pious individuals, must be made to feel embarrassed about things like saying "praise the Lord" or "God bless" to strangers, wearing ashes on their foreheads on ash Wednesday or even saying "Bless you" to co-workers who sneeze. Religion must be forced into the closet (not through prohibition, but mass ridicule) and public display of symbolic religious behavior should viewed as inappropriate as engaging in sexual acts on a city sidewalk. Force the foolish non-thinkers to keep it to themselves, and the younger generation will begin to realize that religion is nothing more than mythology and/or dangerous ideology.

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I’m a former geologist and ardent amateur astronomer. You can’t find two scientific fields with more evidence of evolution than those.

I also have a close family member, an Evangelical Christian with a Masters degree in education, who believes dinosaurs walked with man and that I’m going to Hell for not accepting Jesus into my life. Long ago, to preserve a loving relationship, I gave up arguing the absurdity of those positions.

The result for me has been enduring emotional pain, a feeling not shared by my relative who will never change. I think that pretty well sums up the schism between Evangelicals who let the Bible do their thinking and people like me who would rather use God’s greatest gift to mankind – the human brain.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with irrefutable, hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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There is a wonderful podcast called "The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe" that often addresses the issue of Creationism and its followers push to get it into public schools. I encourage anyone who is interested in learning more about that and similar topics to check it out. A google search will pull up the site in no time.

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I find the best way to combat this insanity is subterfuge. Pretend to be them (it's quite easy) and turn the silliness up a notch, but not too much.

Go to pro-life protests or other events likely to be covered by the media and hold signs that say "ELECTRICITY IS THE TOOL OF THE DEVIL" "SAVING MY HYMEN FOR JESUS" while carrying crosses

Join Landover Baptist Church!

Pretend to be them on on message boards and encourage them to embarrass themselves. They don't need much encouragement.

There's no limit to what you can do to get them more exposure!

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If we can make Holocast denial a crime - surely we cam make evolution denial a crime as well!!

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AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!
(Can you hear me screaming?)

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Then again, I'm also partial to Michael Crighton. My expectation is that the sciency creationism fad will work itself out in the wash. As an aside, this is further evidence that we must inhabit a land so privileged and with so little worry that we invent crises to augment the paucity of true ones that befall us as a peoples and as a nation.

Erm...wait a sec...don't I remember hearing something about a war that is costing us dearly in lives and dollars? And something about Ceasar's branch of government not even being able to follow the "expanded" privliges that the unPatriot Act affords the FBI? And, wasn't there something about a Great Flood? No? I mean, N.O.?

Nah, I must be mistaken. It was probably just some sinister bibly guy who wants to jump in the river for the benefit of his immortal soul and exercising this idiotic idea of "free expression" getting on my nerves. Heck, he was probably quoting scripture in earshot of my "personal bubble" and making me think that there was important shit* like war, corruption, disaster, and genuine sins against the Constitution going on.

I agree 100% with the author. Here we have a righteous crisis on our hands, which might only be solved by pointing fingers and jeering and these heinous evil-doers, until something more worthwhile to make fun of or--here's a notion--to try to improve upon manifests itself out of thin air.

*Verily, thine swearing shall be forgiven whence times of woe betide ye. The Book of ABF, Chapter 3, Verse 5.

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Think about how much money these museums are sucking out of their political contributions.

Every morning I wake up, slurp down a big cup of mutagens, and thank god I'm an atheist.

John U
Seattle

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Why are these people so concerned about creation and people's crotches? Rather, shouldn't they be addressing issues of poverty, inequality, and injustice that are so prevalent in the world today?

I believe that, despite all the thrashing around that these wacko religions have done lately, it really is the last gasp. They are discrediting themselves more and more. Sooner or later people are going to realize what a shell game these groups and denominations are pulling on them.

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these Fundies are watching the Flintstones like it's a documentary...

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It ought to be possible to embarrass these people into submission. Could any self respecting human being believe T Rex’s massive choppers were used to open coconuts? In the garden of eden? But if this drivel, proferred without so much as a titter, can’t shame them into apostasy, nothing can.
However could we, the country that split the atom, invented the transistor, broke the sound barrier, put a man on the moon, arrive at the point at which such silliness is countenanced?
Unfortunately, we did it; we who call our selves secular humanists.
When humanism was popularized, as with many things when they are popularized, the normal human tendency to laziness manifests itself, and people embrace, in the most simplified manner possible, free of all nuanced intepretations, a “lite” version of the ethic. You know, something that doesn’t require a lot of thought because that’s haarrdd…….. (Use your imagination, imagine the whine.)
When humanism was tossed like fresh meat to a post WWII populace, restrained by our Calvinist/Puritan tradition, it was used to justify everything from the sexual “revolution” (Remember that? It lasted about half an hour.) to radical leftist politics. It was considered a fresh breeze blowing away the constraints of an uptight society.
But the street version of humanism had nothing to do with reality. Humanism doesn’t advocate abandoning guilt; guilt has a function in the panoply of human emotions, but a crippling guilt makes action impossible. Accepting diversity doesn’t mean tolerating lunacy. Self esteem is important, but not all encompassing, and must be based on something other than feelings.
In the popular version of humanism, self esteem became all important; all standards of behavior were abandoned in the face of cultural relevance; all beliefs tolerated less we seem judgmental. Thus, when little Johnny says a spook in the sky created him, he was never bitch slapped into reality; no one has dared inform him his beliefs are superstition, and that he can’t negotiate the real world believing a man rose from the dead and ascended into the sky. We have become, across the whole society, entirely visceral, denigrating thought over emotion.
Nor is it confined to the right; note some of the howling non sequitors and screeching polemics on this board. Creationism is just the right wing version of it.
And it is just part of the reason we are a declining power. When your leader is a Bible thumping ex drunk whose foreign policy is based on Biblical revelation, why do dinosaurs in the garden of eden seem preposterous?

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I guess that's why there is not a torrent of apologist posts saying things like, "evolution is just a theory" and "I'll pray for you." On the bright side, I don't think western Europe or Japan will ever fall for this crap, and with the US empire in decline we will not be able to impose it upon them by force. On the other hand, I don't much fancy living in Margaret Atwood's Gilead, either.

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While I agree with every point the author made, this type of necessary critique of the Christian right wing lunatics is way, way overdue. The damage has been done. Our schools systems have been denuded of free speech at every level, never mind being able to teach the critical independent thinking skills needed to maintain a truly free, open society. Christian busybodies have declared themselves in charge of our sex lives and are happily finishing off what is left of the seperation of church/state in this country. The truly sad thing is that this has been going on for DECADES! Now, when the damage done by these ignorant bigots is almost completely irreversable are we progressive finally confronting the irrational beliefs that lead us to this mess. Just less than a year ago, many progressive folks were still insisting that the religious wingnuts were basically "good" people despite all evidence to the contrary. No, no, not good people, really....lookie here at what has happend to personal liberty in the good ol' U S of A. While I'm pleased as hell to see that fundementalism is no longer being giving a free pass in some quarters, I do wonder if we have the collective will to not only say to these folks "you are nuts and you are wrong" but to undo the craziness they have wrought. That'll take the cojones on our part to directly confront them and expose their fundie ignorance for the hurtful, destructive crap it is.

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Will someone please give me a lobotomy so I, too, can be blissful?

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It is interesting that Creationism does not have the word theory behind it. The theory of evolution is, by it's own description, a theory. This theory also tends to change and evolve with each new discovery. At first a whole civilization was created around what was thought to be a tool only to find it was something else and the civilization theory disposed of without apology. Evolution theory is treated as fact, while those who believe in creation are open to a world (pun intended) of possiblities. I dream of possibility while some believe ever-changing "fact." Hopefully, all are allowed their thoughts and beliefs and not only a narrow few. Does it matter that someone die not believing in the theory of evolution?

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WVCSR

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"You spent $25 million on THIS when children were starving? Depart into outer darkness!"

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We have Dinosaur Adventure Land here in Pensacola. The owner, Ken Hovind, is currently serving 10 years in federal prison for tax evasion. He tried to convince the jury that the money generated from the "park" belonged to God and shouldn't be subject to tax. Fortunately, it was a jury of his community peers rather than church peers. Unfortunately, the damn park is still open.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-11/hovind.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind
http://www.kent-hovind.com/

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Wow, sounds really cool, particularly all the special effects. I wish I'd have thought of it (and had the money to build it). Hedges didn't mention how much the admission price is, but I bet it's a money maker. You know what would be really really cool, if they had a "last supper" cafeteria where you could sit down with Jesus and the disciples for a snack before you leave. A little bread, a little wine, maybe a fondue pot full of Velveeta dip. Maybe they could also install an "adults only" area where they put on a live sex show and Lot gets it on with his daughters in a cave. And maybe a bar where you could knock a few down with Noah. The possiblities are almost endless.

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The problem with making fun of fundamentalists is that to them you've just proven yourself ignorant and probably in need of saving... Therefore anything you say is disregarded as the ranting of the unenlightened.

Plus most of the Chrisitian right is extremly afraid, if there is no god then there is no devis and we are totally responsible for our own actions. Much easier to say the devil made me do it. Having god around is a nice crutch too. People don't want reality unless you can show them that is not all that bad.

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Last week I saw a CNN "news" report about finding Noah's Ark on a mountain in the Middle East (Turkey?).

As proof, the reporter said there were fossils of clams nearby, suggesting the Great Flood had reached that elevation.

Being a former geologist, I couldn't help shouting at my TV set, "You idiot! The fossils were that high because of CONTINENTAL UPLIFT, not a worldwide deluge which would've produced a global unconformity no geologist has ever found."

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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If science and reality had been left up to the christians the world would still be flat and the sun would still be orbiting around the earth not to mention the great black cloth in the sky with holes poked in it letting through the light of heaven replacing the stars.

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The official 9/11 conspiracy theory (mantra) is the neocon's Trojan horse against reason. If people will swallow that, they can be led anywhere.

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Although there are a very great number of former born again xtians who have shed the garbage (don't ever forget that fact!) I would focus on creating potent counter-propaganda aimed at children so they don't catch the bug. If MTV works to turn 11 year old girls into sluts whose makeup, dress and behavior screams "Rape me, I'm a sex toy" then surely we can come up with ways to make young impressionable people sceptical, interested in things, and prone not to go along with arbitrary religious claims (which mainly work because they're issued as peer pressure.)
To stay in the domain of television: Southpark has shown great potential in showcasing the obscene absurdity of religions. Just remember the episode where they end up in hell and are told that they followed the wrong god out of thousands: "The correct answer was: Mormon".
I personally plan to offer deconversion sessions and go to highschools advocating atheism.

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This "Christian Science" view is offensive to me as a Christian. I think their attempt to fit circular pieces (facts) into square holes (theory) only further serves to make all Christians look like idiots. This is part of why I don't have a church home. I am pro-choice, anti-Bush, accepting of all kinds of people, don't believe sexual orientation is a choice or a sin and believe the role of the church is to love everyone (not judge everyone) -- especially the most unloveable. Jesus said as we do unto the LEAST of them we do unto HIM.

That said, it's counterproductive to put so much energy into a theory that, even to me, seems ridiculous. Energy would be much better spent fixing internal crises in the church, or -- get this -- doing the work the Bible calls us to do!

I have long accepted that creation is not as cut and dry as it might read in the Bible. We take for granted at its most basic, our concept of time. I have never believed that the world was created in 7 days as we understand days (24 "hours"). Even as a child I asked questions about how dinosaurs could co-exist with Adam and Eve. No one could answer, except to say that where the Bible is silent, we should be silent (not make up theories to fit our beliefs).

It occurred to me some years later, probably more in pieces than all in one epiphany, that time as we understand it, may not be God's time. Isn't it just as plausible that a "day" is more like an epoch by contemporary standards? Just a thought.

If nothing else, I hope that both Christian Science stops humiliating itself and all Christians, and that Evolutionists consider that Creation and Evolution CAN co-exist though they definitely do not by these standards.

Please don't attack me for expressing my opinion. I am welcome to your thoughts and ideas.

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The dumbing down of America is almost complete.

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The survey which raises fear in the article needs to refine its choices. I would say God created the world. I would believe in the myth of the bible as conveying the "truth" of creation. If one believes in a God, then, one must allow this supreme being to act beyond the power of man to understand, and realize that stories, myths be used to convey the essence of the belief, ie. God created.
This doesn't mean I accept the foolishness of the creationists.

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I'm an atheist, but I was raised a Catholic (12 yrs catholic school, ahem) so I had a good dose of bible learnin. Not only is this batshit insane, it's even not valid according to the bible. The flood & Noah's arc happened AFTER Adam and Eve, obvously, so when Noah took the baby dinosaurs on board they would have been meat-eaters. This doesn't even work according to their delusional version. Pah. It's all about money and sucking the idiots dry anyway. Dumbing down of America: Nearly complete!

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Onward Christian Soldiers...marching as to war...sing along...with the cross of Jesus marching on before...stop singing...you've heard this battle cry. Believe it! They're coming to send their children into battle against all men of reason. They are fast approaching the critical mass needed to re-write the laws and force the men and women of tolerance and diverse thinking into subjigation in all things. Even if Christ were the savior of these ignorant sheep, he has proven himself to be a coward many times over by delaying his return to earth for such a long time that the world has plunged into the ocean of deprevaty and delusion and destruction, led by the fanatic religious leaders who guide their sheep , tax free, on the backs of the enlightened. If there were a monotheistic "GOD" he long ago abandoned the human race to their own devices and is now snickering in his rat hole at what his grand experiment has wrought. It's potentially a lonely world without GOD but it a terrifying one with him in our affairs. We are on the eve of destruction, the extinction of the human race.

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Very well said. Thank you.

Visit us at WVCSR I'm sure you'll love the company.

Rev. El

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Fixed Earth

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How strict are the immigration laws in Europe? I don't think I can live in this country anymore where so many people buy into this insanity. I truly have a hard time comprehending how people can delude themselves into believing things that are so clearly MADE UP! If I created a church that was based on invisible men living in the sky and bla bla bla, they'd put me away in the looney bin! Why can't we do the same to them? BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM!!! AAAAAHHHH!!! I have to go now and renew my passport.

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Ever wonder how the highly enlightened Roman world fell so far, so fast. Take a short stroll with the Wikipedia

Late Antique

The Late Antique period also saw a wholesale transformation of the political and social basis of life in and around the Roman Empire.
The Roman citizen elite in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, under the pressure of taxation and the ruinous cost of presenting spectacular public entertainments in the traditional cursus honorum, had found under the Antonines that security could only be obtained by combining their established roles in the local town with new worldly ones, as servants and representatives of a geographically distant Emperor. After Constantine centralized affairs in Constantinople in the early 4th century, the Late Antique upper class was divided among those who had access to the far-away centralized administration (in concert with the great landowners), and those who did not—though they were well-born and thoroughly educated, a classical education was no longer the path to success, rather it was one of access, privileged and often corruption in the centralized and bureaucratic state. Room at the top of Late Antique society was smaller and more status competitive, the plain toga that had identified all members of the ruling class indifferently was replaced with silk gowns, court vestments and massive jewelry...

Migrations (Dark Age) 400-700'

Everywhere, the gradual break-down of economic and social linkages and infrastructure resulted in increasingly localized outlooks. This breakdown was often fast and dramatic as it became unsafe to travel or carry goods over any distance; there was a consequent collapse in trade and manufacture for export. Major industries that depended on trade, such as large-scale pottery manufacture, vanished almost overnight in places like Britain. Tintagel in Cornwall, as well as several other centres, managed to obtain supplies of Mediterranean luxury goods well into the sixth century, but then lost their trading links. Administrative, educational and military infrastructure quickly vanished, and the loss of the established cursus honorum led to the collapse of the schools and to a rise of illiteracy even among the leadership. The careers of Cassiodorus (died c. 585) at the beginning of this period and of Alcuin of York (died 804) at its close were founded alike on their valued literacy.

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Last Fall, I went to St. Louis for one of the Cardinals playoff games, which got rained out, so I had a day to see the sights there, on a weekday as it turned out.

Like just about every other major metro area, they have a great science museum with practically nobody there -- just a few groups of rambunctious school kids and the odd mom with a couple of little ones. I don't know for sure but guess it's typical for the genre, and I got the impression they can use all the customers/support they can get, at least compared to the typical mall.

So one easy simple thing we could all do is put our money where our mouths are, give generously friends, etc.

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The sponsors of the Creation museum have interesting points in their article Creationists—American fascists?, a response to Hedges.

For example, Regarding dinosaurs … Hedges describes our museum’s "towering" animatronic T. rexes (p. 113) as hovering over animatronic children in the main hall. But the dinosaurs, while very realistic-looking, are perhaps only 3-feet high.

Interesting to see their view.

I remain agnostic, about both evolution and creationism. There is more to the creationist viewpoint than many people believe, but....

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Finally, as much as I can understand how some non-believers might feel when confronted by some fundamentalist beliefs - don't let them anger you. It closes your mind and heart. God is real, so is his Son - but as far as I'm concerned, you'll find that out IF and when you're ready to. I'm merely stating what I know to be true.

There is something I want some of you to think about though: How would you feel if I said your Father was _________ (fill the blank with the filthiest language you can think of) and meant it. Then laughed loudly, while enjoying your pain. Some of you might agree with me, your Father really is whatever you said he was - while some of you would be angry enough to cause me a great deal of harm. Well, your Father is as real to you as my Father is to me! And though I've never seen the face of my Father, He is always with me. I love Him more than words can express - and the pain I feel at some of what I've read is palpable.

Not all fundamentalists are Christians, not all Christians are fundamentalists. Don't paint us all with the same brush.

NB: For those who like a good joke at the expense of Eve...this is what the ORIGINAL text says:

Genesis 5:2 Male and female He created them, and He blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the time when they were created.

Who gave the woman the name Eve? Both genders were together known as Adam (meaning mankind, the first, the beginning)...see what I mean about "inasmuch as it has been correctly translated?"

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First: I believe in the Bible inasmuch as it has been correctly translated - and I don't believe we have even half of the New Testament in print! That will lie sealed for some time to come. If it were printed, we would probably find that women are not the second class citizens the Catholic church set them up to be, when they decided which books would be allowed in what we call the Bible. In reading the New Testament with an OPEN mind, you'll find that most of the "background" help given to Jesus and His Apostles came from women. Including monetary aid, lodging and food. Jesus loved all people, some of his Apostles were married men! So much for celibacy being ordained by Him.

Second: I don't believe the earth is "young," I believe it is millions of years old - as science says it is. Fossil records prove it, and I believe the Bible does as well. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"...what beginning? The beginning of Adam and Eve? Or the beginning of the universe? It did take Him 6,000 years to create it - and I don't know about you, but it seems a few people here picture Him sitting in His third heaven molding a little ball...with a little pinch here, and a little poke there (the oceans ya know?) and then He carefully set it where we are today!

I think there IS room for both evolution (we change over time, we have evolved from our great-great Grandparents who on average, were 4" or more shorter than we are today! That is evolution at work.) AND creation. Is there anyone who can state unequivocally, that creation did or did not start with a "big bang?" Who caused it? Who controlled it? Why is science only now finding that there are actually 57 dimensions, not 3? Why is it so terrifying for "thinking" people to have their beliefs questioned or discussed? An open mind is a learning mind.

Third: As one commenter has stated, the Old Testament is a book of history, and a book of prophecy. It's primary function is to let us know who God is, and how we came to be - as well as to tell us that "one comes." The New Testament is about that ONE. While so many fundamentalists are yelling about bringing back the Ten Commandments and forcing everyone to live by them, they are making a mistake. When they do this they are in effect saying, "we prefer to live and die by the laws given to Moses, rather than the grace given by Jesus." And they will. Old Testament law says, if you even so much as think about someone with 'lust' in your heart...you have committed either fornication or adultery. Are there any fundamentalists out there who have looked at Mr. Smith's new truck, and thought they'd like to have it - or one just like it? Then you die, you've coveted something belonging to your neighbour. Are you really sure you want law? Or would grace be sufficient unto you?

To try to force religion upon anyone sends them away from you, and protitutes your own belief. Stop talking about "Christianity" and try being one - for real. Feed the poor, clothe the naked, comfort those who mourn..DO what Jesus did. Don't ask the gimmicky question "what would Jesus do?" none of have His heart and mind...instead let's just do what He did. Then we can be relatively sure we've done something right today.

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Finally, as much as I can understand how some non-believers might feel when confronted by some fundamentalist beliefs - don't let them anger you. It closes your mind and heart. God is real, so is his Son - but as far as I'm concerned, you'll find that out IF and when you're ready to. I'm merely stating what I know to be true.

There is something I want some of you to think about though: How would you feel if I said your Father was _________ (fill the blank with the filthiest language you can think of) and meant it. Then laughed loudly, while enjoying your pain. Some of you might agree with me, your Father really is whatever you said he was - while some of you would be angry enough to cause me a great deal of harm. Well, your Father is as real to you as my Father is to me! And though I've never seen the face of my Father, He is always with me. I love Him more than words can express - and the pain I feel at some of what I've read is palpable.

Not all fundamentalists are Christians, not all Christians are fundamentalists. Don't paint us all with the same brush.

NB: For those who like a good joke at the expense of Eve...this is what the ORIGINAL text says:

Genesis 5:2 Male and female He created them, and He blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the time when they were created.

Who gave the woman the name Eve? Both genders were together known as Adam (meaning mankind, the first, the beginning)...see what I mean about "inasmuch as it has been correctly translated?"

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Who is paying for these museums? Who has millions to throw around to set up museums? The same neocon/rightwing billionaires who where behind the GW Bush Administration.

Of course they don't like science, just as the Catholic Church didn't like science - science provides an independent means of ascertaining the truth, independent of papal authority or corporate executive control. Thus, what you have is an attempt by political and economic interests to define their pronouncements as 'the truth'.

The Catholic Church knew the world was round, but protecting their papal authority demanded that they persecute anyone who disagreed with the papal pronouncement that the Vatican sat at the center of the universe.

Similarly, oil and coal interests don't want climate scientists to tell them that they have to stop burning oil and coal; pharmaceutical interests don't want to be held accountable for their many and nefarious crimes (cooking studies, bribing doctors, lying to patients, all for a few more dollars).

Put this together with mindless religious fanatacism and you have the 'creationist science' movement; you have Jerry Falwell claiming global warming is a myth; you have American universities signing proprietary research contracts with global corporations like Exxon, BP, HewlettPackard, Novartis, etc. - essentially turning the universities into corporate research parks, etc.

When totalitarian systems try to gain power, their first targets are the media and academic institutions. They also try to form 'national movements' - like Hitler Youth, for example. (Wasn't the current Pope a member of Hitler Youth? Of course, it was 1941, and he was a 14-yr old German.) The Nazis first purged the academic institutions of undesirables in the 1930s - anyone who didn't agree with Nazi race theories was out. The Soviets purged their academies under Lysenko, who demanded that scientists follow 'communist genetic thery'.

IN the US today, you have corporate-religious power structures attempting to take over and control scientific and media institutions. The similarities to earlier 20th century totalitarian systems are impossible to ignore.

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The trouble with the fundamentalists is their picture of their God that they love, worship, adore and demand the rest of us also love, worship, adore and kill to convert the world to believe in. They claim God is all knowing, all powerful, omniscient, all loving, amd all wise. But this same God created the earth as misleading trap with evil science to damn man with things like evolution, dinosaur bones, that are millions of years old, and the evils of modern medicine, lead him into sin and damn him to hell. Furthermore, He is also such a small minded vicious God, that He demands we put to death unbelievers who refuse to convert to fundamentalist Christianity and He clearly is jealous and hates the gods of other religions. And, don't you love the bit about "God hates fags." Homosexuality has been shown to be genetic and so we find that God is vicious enough to hate and condemn His own mistakes to hell. To say nothing of that there are seven billion humans walking this planet and only a billion call themselves Christian so, this all loving, all wise God damns the rest to hell for all eternity and, in fact, picks and chooses only certain Christians as His favorites. That is, He even uses Christianity to deceive men and damn them to hell.

I consider myself a believer in an all-powerful, all-wise Being who created the universe. But I also believe He is a lot more open minded, loving and accepting than the fundamentalists small-minded, hateful, vicious, selfish, self-serving,ego-centric concept of the Deity. I'm only human and very small minded. Thus it disappoints me but I think God even forgives evil, mass and serial murdering bastards like Bush, as well as Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Attilla the Hun, as well as preachers of hatred like Falwell, Swaggart, Robertson, Buchanan, as well as homosexuals like Haggard and Foley and, in fact all of humanity. After all, even these monsters are as He made them. Yeah, if there is a God, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha, Brahma, Whoever, He is Father of us all and loves all of us, sigh, even George W. Bush. Sigh!

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None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. - Goethe

The delusion of meaningful elections when both parties are controlled by the corporate establishment is more dangerous to our freedom than any other. On almost every issue the interests of the corporate establishment are directly opposite the interests of the people.
Bob Reichenbach,
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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It's right there in Genesis:

"By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou earn thy keep; ecology shall be the way of all the things of the earth, and thou shalt not even think of asking if thou mayest keep thy dominion."

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Let me see. There has to be an explanation for the beginning of the Universe and the beginning of man. What should I believe? That man was created from some primordial ooze and "evolved" over time or that the Universe and man were created by a super-intelligent being? Looking at what passes for evidence on both sides as objectively as I can..... I have come to a decision. The balance of the evidence rests squarely on the side of the ID crowd. I know that most of you readers are now screaming that I'm one of those Bible thumping creationists and that I don't know what I'm talking about. You'd say I'm merely spouting religious dogma promoting the ID line. I won't waste your time trying to defend my viewpoint only that I tell you that if you don't believe in the Universe being created then you really have little more than your own "faith" and "religion" to cling to. What is your vaunted scientific basis for believing that the Universe or man have been created by anything other than by an Intelligent Designer? Chance and Darwinism are religious teachings of the anti-ID crowd and have less scientific data to prove factual than the ID postulations. The real objection to what the ID folk are doing isn't so much that what they believe is fantasy as much as it challenges the fantasy that we sprang up and developed over eons of developmental time by mere chance. There is so much provable error and outright fraud in Darwinism that its laughable these days to even suggest that its even credible theory. Don't for a minute suppose that I buy into all the theories of the ID crowd either. I simply leave the details as to what happened thousands of years ago to the G/D of Creation.....that is until and if I see hard evidence of the details of HIS handiwork. So far HE has me convinced that we are HIS creations and I leave it at that. The details aren't really important.

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In Dub-ya's 1999 autobiography, "A Charge to Keep," he claimed a meeting with Billy Graham turned his life around and made him a true believer in the ways of Jesus Christ. After that. he attended weekly Bible study meetings and prayed daily.

Not hard enough, apparently.

Consider the following. In the 2003 Bush family bio, “George & Laura," its author, Christopher Andersen, described an incident in a Dallas Mexican restaurant involving Dub-ya, Al Hunt, former talking head on CNN's defunct "Capital Gang," and his wife, Judy Woodruff, well-known PBS moderator:


Hunt and Woodruff were dining with their four-year-
old son when a man started making his way
toward them. He was clearly intoxicated, red-faced
and colliding with tables and other patrons as he
approached.

As the man came closer, Hunt finally recognized the
Vice President's son, someone he barely knew and
could not recall even seeing on the campaign trail.

The little boy's eyes widened [Hunt's child] as the man
pointed a finger at his father and began shouting, "You
no good fucking son of a bitch!"

While other diners looked on in shock, George W.
screamed, "I will never fucking forget what you wrote!"

For the next minute or so, Dub-ya stayed at the table,
continuing his diatribe against a story in the
Washington Post. But Hunt could not imagine what
could have provoked such rage. He had not even
mentioned the elder Bush in the Post article, much
less criticized him.

With that, Dub-ya weaved his way through the
restaurant and out to the parking lot.


Not surprisingly to Bush critics, the drunken confrontation with Hunt and Woodruff took place in April 1986, nine months AFTER George W.’s so-called religious "conversion."

For more damning revelations about Bush's REAL character, read the article, "Shrub the Charlatan: The Devil Made Him Do It," that's posted on King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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...and it didn't even take a discussion thread for someone to bring up the Nazis.

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Were they Hittites, worshippers of Ba'al, or what? How come they never explained that? It's important!

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dinosaurs in the garden of eden. thats a new one for me. and who put them there? the bible or recent science. this reminds me of the time i went to mt vernon and looked in the slave quarters. one child said to his mother, this is where the slaves live. and the mother corrected her child by saying, workers dear, workers. well i looked at her but said nothing to my great regret. i am told i am too argumentative. so what to do in this case. of course, the entire business is atrocious. but where does the milions come from. what do these people want? should we deny them modern medicine and have them concoct their own bible brew? what are we to do? the french have their headresses on the faithful and we have our dinosaurs in eden. help

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This is religion at its most childish--child like. It's the Disney version of religion, a spirtual "woobie" blanket. Unfortunately, I think the appeal of this grows as times (at least seem to) become more complex and the sense of fear and uncertainty grows. This is true of any culture; it's human nature. The current climate in this country only fuels this baser instinct. It's very hard to fight this on an intellectual level, but I think it's a matter of "evolve or die."

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From the article, "Shrub the Charlatan: The Devil Made Him Do It."


On April 2, 2005, Pope John Paul II died peacefully in Rome. Can anyone, even atheists, argue that His Holiness was not one of the most beloved human beings ever to walk on this planet? Unless George W. abandons his hypocritical ways, the world will have a much different opinion of him when he passes.

Without doubt, certainly among the billions of non-Christians around the globe, Shrub will be one of the most hated and despised Americans who ever lived, president or otherwise. Of course, he could always change minds by behaving like a real Christian, but that would require introspection, which is beyond his capability. Admitted Bush aboard Air Force One on June 4, 2003, "I'm not very analytical. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things."

Shrub might not think about himself, but he sure spends a lot of time focusing on politics. Always in the exploitive mode, immediately after the Pope's death, he announced his intention to attend the Vatican funeral, making him the first U.S. president ever to visit Rome under such solemn
circumstances.

For company, he took along his father and another former commander-in-chief, Bill Clinton. Left behind was Jimmy Carter, a Christian who practices his faith by building homes for the poor instead making life more miserable for them. as does George W.

When asked about Carter's snubbing, the White House offered a litany of lame excuses including "there weren't enough open seats on Air Force One" -- apparently only for Laura Bush, her hubby, his daddy and Slick Willie. So who was in charge of the seat assignments? Karl Rove?

Following the Pope's funeral, after leaving Rome on the Big Blue Bird, George W. held one of his classic "I'm so wonderful" photo-op sessions with accompanying reporters.

As described by the L.A. Times on Saturday, April 9, 2005, under the headline, "Bush Recalls a Spiritual Moment," he told members of the airborne press, "I have no doubt in my mind there is a living God. And no doubt in my mind that the Lord Christ was sent by the Almighty. No doubt in my mind about that. Got it? Everybody got it correct?"

No, Mr. President, we didn't get it "correct." Preaching about Christianity is not your job, sir. You are supposed to represent ALL citizens of faith in the United States -- Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, American Indians, New Age believers, etc..-- not just Christians.

Bush obviously doesn't read books about religion. Otherwise, he would know that spiritual belief systems include Animism, Deism, Duotheism, Henotheism, Monotheism, Panentheism, Polytheism and, yes, even Agnosticism and Atheism. Yet, Shrub uses his bully pulpit to arrogantly suggest Christianity is the only valid religion. Even if that were true, the pious proclamation has no place in politics under our form of government. If you disagree, show me where Jesus is mentioned in the Constitution.


By Hugh E. Scott -- author of “George Dub-ya Bush, THE PHONY FIGHTER PILOT,” and the editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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Therefore, the Christians must attack the idiots of America while they are young because they know that stupid people do not like to "waste" time thinking so if they can feed them the Christian lie early on they have created a believer for life. Thinking is not the pastime of the imbecile. No, they are busy with their TV and NASCAR and other such wholesomely mindless pursuits. If you confront someone's belief system you are more likely to get an emotional gut reaction and fervent defense that totally disregards any reason and empirical evidence than you are to get a legitimate debate utilizing the facts at hand.

Teach your average person to Christianity at a young age and they are Christians for life. The same would be true if they were taught Islam or Taoism or voodoo or something about Mickey Mouse and Santa Clause.

Part of the problem is the lack of mockery towards Christians. If a belief is ridiculous it should be mocked. Even most Christians, dumb as they are, accept at some point that Santa Clause and other "fairy tales" do not actually exist. They mock them and think of them as childish in the same way as an intelligent reasonable person views Christianity. Therefore, the solution is to mock Christianity to the point where even Christians can take a step back and look at how ridiculous everything they believe is.

Why do religions persist in geographic areas throughout many generations? Because parents pass those belief systems on to their children at a young age. Most people are not philosophers, most people do not concern themselves with thinking beyond "money, food, sex."

The solution is to teach something in place of the Christian mysticism, which we do. Unfortunately by the time children reach the public schools they have already been fed the Christian lie and told to disregard anything their "evil" teachers tell them about science.

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That's what happens when mental illness is left unchecked. God (if there is one) please protect me from your followers!

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"Is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian Fundamentalism will rule." from the World Can't Wait--Drive Out the Bush Regime's CALL. Check it out...sign it, and start putting an end to this dangerous movement!
www.worldcantwait.org

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... so many people did not believe what this man has said. I am reminded of another post that I read entitled "The Christians are coming, The Christians are coming!"

Both evolutionary Darwinism and Intelligent Design are belief systems. I challenge anyone to show that evolutionary creation is feasible, let alone occurred. If evolution is science, give me documented evidence that is repeatable by any scientist. You cannot; if belief systems are to be removed from public education, you must also remove evolution, which is a belief system.

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It is deplorable to see the lies and name-calling that Mr. Hedges engages in; it is sad to see that presumably educated individuals actually endorse his type of behavior.

He has dilliberately called trained scientists liars and deceivers because they endorse ID. These men and women have had years of training and evidently far greater education than Mr. Hedges.

Mr. Hedges has once again offered only conjecture and fear-mongering to bolster his defense. He once again does not use any form of logical process or evidence to support his claims. His articles have been the most extreme and unsubstantiated things that I have read on AlterNet.

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The first reports out of Guyana on November 18, 1978 were that Congressman Leo J. Ryan and four other members of his party were shot and killed as they attempted to board a plane at Port Kaituma airstrip. Within hours, came the shocking announcement that 408 American citizens had committed suicide at a communal village they had built in the jungle in Northwest Guyana. The community had come to be known as “Jonestown.” The dead were all members of a group known as “The People’s Temple” which was led by the Reverend Jim Jones. It would soon be learned that 913 of the 1100 people believed to have been at “Jonestown” at the time, had died in a mass suicide. Jonestown Massacre, The Official Story, Wikipedia, Jim Jones, The Jonestown Death Tape, Jonestown, Examining the Peoples Temple, Jonestown massacre + 20: Questions linger

Is America becomming a Jonestown on a grand scale? Is this the fate that awaits all the evangelical faithfull that submerge themselves in Biblical delusion? But if Jonestown is any lesson, they will take down all the non-believers before taking themselves out.

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It can be so much fun to ridicule ignorance like this until the reality hits home. We're insulated from the "moral majority" on web sites like alternet. Truth be told, most Americans say they are Christians and a great number of them claim to be evangelical. Talking about evolution vs. creationism is a waste of valuable time. The reality of situation is this:
Within ten to twenty years global warming and peak oil are going to converge on modern society with a vengeance. We are talking about hundreds of millions displaced and possibly billions of people starving. Now, the optimists keep telling me not to worry because we as the American people will pull together and solve these problems. Alright. Sure. Oh wait, that's right, nearly 70% of Americans think that Jesus is coming back soon. That these are the end of days. Do you think a "Christian Nation" like ours is going to budge one bit to combat and solve the problems of our near future. Think again. Our "One Nation under God" is going down hard real fast and real soon and it's going to be our self righteous christian neighbors that will do nothing but watch.

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"Creationism is not about offering an alternative viewpoint."
Its an alternate manifestation of Orwell's 1984 and its well into a major thrust in American life. This is a good time for Creationism. Bushdip believes in this and he has created an environment to foster Creationism. WHY? Because it requires a mind that WANTS to believe! That is an entity that is ripe for subterfuge and the Big Lie. Give me a malleable God-Believing mind and I can mold millions into cannon fodder and easily remove them from their fortune. A GOD-FEARING, creationist mush-head is a Neocon's or future dictator's wet dream.

We have this 6-million year old EVOLVED brain and as a people we have surmounted the animal kingdom BECAUSE we used it!.

We have evolved "--the ability to think for oneself, to draw independent conclusions, to express dissent when judgment and common sense tell you something is wrong, to be self-critical, to challenge authority, to advocate for change and to accept that there are other views, different ways of being, that are morally and socially acceptable."

The bottom line is a test ALL you responders should give yourselves and ask of others...
Do you prefer to BELIEVE or do you prefer to critically THINK it out!

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I live on Skid Row in Downtown Los Angeles. I sleep at The Union Rescue Mission, 545 S. San Pedro St., Los Angeles, Ca 90013, because there are no other accommodations for the homeless. Every night we are body searched before going into the mission and we are subjected to evangelical ministries every night while sitting in a day room they call the chapel waiting for dinner. While we are sitting there we are not allowed to read any material that isn't the inspired word of GOD. Anyone caught reading other than inspired works will be asked to leave and if they don't immediately comply will be forcibly removed from the mission.

Two nights ago, the mission was handing out packages of cups of soup to the homeless at dinner in their chow hall. When we left the chow hall, we asked a security guard if we could take the cups of soup with us and he affirmed. While walking along the long narrow corridor to the exit, two other security guards stopped one of the homeless and asked him where he was going with the cups of soup. The homeless man said that security in the chow hall had given him permission to take the soup with him; I was there to verify this. The security guards in the narrow hall told the homeless man that he was lying and to turn around and face the wall. The homeless man bent down and placed the cups of soup on the bare cement floor and told the security in the narrow hall that they could have the cups of soup. The homeless man continued that all he wanted to do was leave and they could have the soup and he turned toward the door whereupon two security guards threw the homeless man against the wall. The security guards then contacted the security guard in the chow hall who confirmed that he had given the homeless man permission to take the cups of soup with him. At that point the homeless man walked out the door and into the mission courtyard leading to the gate that opened to the street. The two security guards followed the homeless man out the door bringing with them the cups of soup. They offered the cups of soup to the homeless man who now furious with the way he had been treated refused to take the cups of soup, but the security guards insisted, placing the cups of soup in the homeless man's hand. The homeless man then threw the cups of soup in the trash and told the security guards that they were both assholes and he wouldn't ever come back to the mission and walked out the gate and into the street. The two security guards ran after the homeless man into the street where they attacked him punching him in the face and wrestling him to the ground. Once on the ground the security continued to punch the homeless man while handcuffing him. Once handcuffed, the two security guards walked the homeless man back into the mission where I would suppose he was held until police could come and arrest him.

Remembering the Jim Jones story makes this incident all to uncomfortable because it has in it the elements of Jonestown.

The problem with a belief system that refuses to acknowledge anything other than its official document’s description of reality is that when there are discrepancies between the official belief system and inadequacies engendered by that belief system, the inadequacies have to be ignored leading to dysfunction. When the dysfunction becomes so severe that it can no longer be ignored, the leader will opt for death rather than face the mountain of problems that have accumulated because of their reluctance to address reality.

I think we are seeing the beginnings this self destructive mentality in America, and I think that the presidency of George W. Bush is a symptom.

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Just wondering, I think it would be only appropriate to hate all religions equally.

Lets light the cemonial fire and burn all the religious literature, then we can put on black leather boots, goosestep door to door and drag the believers out and kill them one by one till its just people like us left.

Then we go after the next group who dare speak freely thier belief.

Yea,... you guys are progressing, into what I don't know.

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I wanted to send a note of sympathy, a get well soon message to Tony Snow. Having lost family members to cancer, I knew how devastated he and his family must have felt to know the cancer was back. But, I needed an e-mail address, so I went to the White House website, and entered the word "Contact" in the search. I got several hits, and when I clicked on every one of them guess what I got? The Faith-Based Initiatives Office White House Pages! Every single one! Not a contact list of various offices or departments, only the Faith-based Initiative adjunct to the offices and departments.

Folks, I hate to say this, but these museums; the attacks on our schools' religious neutrality and functions; the violence in the name of Christianity are all part and parcel now of our government and our society. I was born and raised a Christian, but not like any I have met recently as they come knocking on my doorstep from various churches in town. The final straw came when I was talking to a young couple in their mid-thirties who had the audacity to tell me that children born with AIDS were the damned and did not deserve God's mercy. I literally threw them off my steps, and told them not to come back until they learned that there are two stories of Creation in their "perfect" Bible, and their Savior said "suffer the little children to come unto me" and that a "child will lead them" was a way to find God.

The next day, I saw the husband and two other men sitting in a car across the street from my home, talking and gesturing wildly, then pointing at my house. The men started to get out of the car and come towards the house, when I stepped out on to my front stoop. I looked at them, and like the cowards they were, they quickly got back in their car and sped off. I have seen my house being watched several times now, and the police have the license plate numbers of the cars involved as well as descriptions of the men. I am considering purchasing a gun to keep in the house to protect myself since my husband works long hours. If this is what the Christians want for us, to live in stupidity and fear, then they have taken on the wrong person.

These museums present a public danger and should be shut down, but in a land of free speech (at least for now) they will remain open, and it is up to us as parents and citizens to insure that the damage they are trying to inflict on our children is limited or refuted entirely. It may soon be time to start homeschooling all children to insure that they are taught to think, or better yet, start neighborhood schools that are free from the public school system and actually teach our children, with the parents helping to teach when possible, even if it means using donated books. There are still teachers who love to teach and they have been forced out of the profession by the systems that deny them the opportunity. Private, neighborhood schools can be started and they can be co-ops in lieu of vouchers or government funding. It was done in the past, and it can be done again, if we try. It is our only hope of refuting this kind of religious bigotry, ignorance, and false science.

FIGHT BACK AGAINST THIS INDOCTRINATION POLICY! DO IT NOW! WE HAVE NO MORE TIME!

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it's called, "Christianity and Creationism. Is where some damn old man who says that ummaried sex is a sin yet have legions of peophiles in the midst disguised as priests is quite disturbing to me.

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To automatically link Creationism with totalitarianism is an unsustainable assumption. It is not the driver behind totalitarian oppression in the name of God or the Bible. The error lies in abandoning the right of theocracy to God unequivocably in person alone. People speaking on behalf of God because they claim to have an "inside track" to his will are the problem. It applies to political and religious leaders alike. Those who use weapons of destruction in God's name are always to be doubted and resisted.

Historically, Darwin's racist views are documentable in his own books. Nazism was founded on a bizarre nationalist-Theosophist adaption of evolutionary theory. It was mixed with a more generic Social Darwinism that spawned the likes of Planned Parenthood, which also favored birth control of minorities over WASPs, or Henry Ford's famous anti-Semitism.

It is not a priori irrational or unscientific to examine evolutionary theory's demonstrable limits or to postulate a beginning from nothing that suggests Creation. Many scientists are Creationists. The problems come with the totalitarian behaviors that ignore the overarching spiritual principles presented in the Bible of non-violence and humanitarian decency such as was incorporated by a Creationist majority who wrote and approved our constitutional rights that safeguard individual liberty.

Chris
Faith in the Future Foundation

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The Bible and other similar Sacred Books should only be considered for what they were when they were published: a tentative scientific explanation of the Universe by “scientists” who had very limited scientific background and tools to interpret the surrounding world.
I am an agnostic scientist. Yet I always wonder what makes me not to commit suicide right away, if it’s not a kind of anti-entropy force like a gravitational force. I totally agree with Darwin about selection as the key process of evolution but I see it more like a filter you would have to be forced (or attracted) through.

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i have concluded that when discussing anything with any fundamentalist, as soon as they start their rebuttal with, "the bible says...," you are in trouble! your argument, as cogent as it may be, will fall ondeaf and ignorant ears.

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Nothing gets their panties in a wad faster then when someone ridicules the beliefs of the holy rollers. Been dealing with these boobs all my life. Best thing you can do is ignore them and offer them some tea. If they promote and believe this rot ,there is no hope for them anyway. A fool shall not be deprived of his foolishness. Daddy said" do not try to enlighten a fool." We have always have had fools among us and guess we always will. Let them think we are all on board and then we can go off on our own way and they will not miss us. Maybe we could all wear fig leaves to show our support.

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I"m an atheist, born and bred as such. Personally, I have NO PROBLEM if someone wants to be religious and live their lives that way. It's none of my business.

BUT, when they start trying to hoist their religous BS onto ME, then I draw the line.

These people are NOT funny and neither is their perversion of fact. That anyone could believe this garbagen never ceases to amaze me.

Have you heard of Dominionists?

http://www.yuricareport.com

These insane people want to throw out the Constitution - given what Bush and Cheney have done, they don't have far to throw it! - and replace it with the Old Testament, where you can be put to death for adultery, homosexuality, etc. and where women are under the feet of men. Lots more to it.

These people are NOT funny. They are incredibly dangerous. I don't know how they can be stopped. I only know they HAVE to be if we are to survive.

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Except for guns these alleged Christians remind me of the Taliban and other terrorists. To me real science proved the greatness of God. There is a nebula photographed by the Hubble telescope named "Hourglass" that looks like the eye of God to me.

Instead of using the brain God gave them these individuals are trying to bring back the 12th century. How many of the "Christians" would deny a sick child medicine created by the evil science? Are they going back to 12th century farming methods that destroy the environment?

One of the individuals made fun of those who said global warming was making the ocean rise 20 inches. Could this individual could comprehend 20 inches of snow? Probably not.

We "flaming liberals" who use our brains and question everything need to get off our duffs and use the sword of knowledge to cut through the briers of lies and twisted facts. Otherwise they will win.

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I never thought I would one day live in a world where my ideas and concepts of reality would be among the more steadfastly rational and level-headed. I guess that's what happens when you compare just about anyone to a Creationist, suddenly there's a good chance that they will begin to appear at least kinda reasonable.

I have a question... Why on Earth is there a cross on that poor triceratops in the picture?

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It's impossible to convince people, who are grounded in faith, with logic. Faith and logic are opposites. The more illogical a belief the more faith is required to believe it.

It's impossible to convince people, who are grounded in logic with faith. The more logical a belief the less faith is required to believe it.

Unfortunately, both camps feel obliged to "enlighten" each other. That's annoying.
Bob Reichenbach.
Director, The Lincoln Initiative.

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These creation museums are as phony as the three dollar bill. It is very frightening that so many people are buying into this garbage. Evolution is the real deal. Creationism is make believe. What moron doesn't know that?

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Most peoples God is too small.

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The reference to the "pseudo-science of Nazi eugenics" is unfortunate. Comforting as it might be to see eugenics as solely a Nazi obsession, the "science" of eugenics was, in fact, widely popular in the U.S., England and other non-Nazi countries. Tens of thousands of "feeble-minded" were involuntarily sterilized in this country alone. (Readers can go to http://www.eugenicsarchive.org for more information.)

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The sad reality of how many right-wing Christians operate, when you get past the obviously blatant stupidity of their ridiculous freak shows, is that they exercise the power they have by electing fools like Bush II. The result, an endless, mindless war in Iraq that has already killed thousands and turned the entire Muslim world against America. Then you have the so-called "war on terrorism." Never mind that most of the "911 terrorists" were from Saudi Arabia (Bushes buds), or that Osama is quite possibly sipping mojos at some cafe in Miami right now, no, we have to go after the "real terrorists." You know, like the guys who check out what no doubt must be "subversive" library books. Well, it goes on and on with seemingly no end in sight. But, since Bush is "a man of God," or so we are told, his decisions are beyond reproach, and even if he makes a mistake or two, he can always be "forgiven." Not like those heathen liberals.

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Using 'scientific methods' to bolster claims of Faith?

Hmmm,

Has "Because the bible tells us so" lost its power to convince?

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I wanna museum for my religion too. Everyone is welcome. ;)

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Dig it! What is that thing? A Christosaur? I bet there are "some people" who will tell you they still exist in the mountains between Iran and Iraq. That must be what we're really doing in Iraq, protecting the Christosaurs. And if there are any in Iran, we need to go protect them there, too! They must not have found any in Afghanistan. Or maybe they're extinct there because the Taliban ate them all during the Soviet invasion and they don't have an endangered species list on that half of the world...

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I think that it is clear-the more education-the less need one has for traditional religion. But clearly many people have a longing for a spiritual outlook. This longing is what governments take advantage of.

Imagine-

God is the Earth.
Imagine- if envioronmental destruction-was considered a SIN?
The first commandment-
DO NOT HARM MOTHER EARTH.

Meantime- home-school your kids. If they attend public schools or not!

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...to apply if you're uncertain of who the enemy is: Do their actions - nevermind their stated intents - cause more harm than good, much more harm than good, or nothing BUT harm? Do they lie; do they lie a lot, and show no shame when caught? Do they teach hate in any form? Do they teach the inferiority of ANYONE to themselves? Do they teach that their victims brought their "misfortunes" on themselves and deserve for any reason whatsoever? Do they live up to the standards they set for others?

It boils down to this: DO YOU KNOW EVIL WHEN YOU SEE IT?
If you see evil at work and decide it's not your fight, you are on the wrong side. Remember that someone forced to watch abuse is also a victim of abuse.

I never could just stand there and watch someone abuse someone else. My sensei said long ago that with that attitude, I was living on borrowed time. Then he smiled and said, "I cannot think of a better use for your time, and none of us gets out of this life alive anyway."

Ian

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For all the compassionate, open minded, progressive, earth loving as well as SMARTER bunch - this article reeks of Hate, Bandwagon politics (remember Regan and GW?), stupidity as well as misinformation and jumping to conclusions.
I have yet to hear scientists tell me that all the answers to how the world was created and all the missing links are proven and known. Too, it was not Darwin's original intention to de-bunk any Christian belief in his studies or theories.
If the Bible says, a moment to God is but Thousands of years to man, what does that make (7) days to God?
If science is discovery and old myths debunked, and new ideas put in place - what can Theology be? (Evolution anyone?)
Christianity is based upon faith not science although the Bible is a very good source of history.
Too, look at what science has had to offer in the last couple of hundred years as far as for mankind with the exception of a few good discoveries. Pollution, exhaused resources, pharmacuticals that cause more harm than good, cheese that won't melt, and a bunch of whine babies.
Last time I went to a science museum it did not offer much more than a few basic principals as well as a lot of flashing lights and rumbling seats, a view of some of mans exploits, and a lot of hubris hope at best for mans existence.
As far as the evolution of science - does anyone remember smoking doctors? I guess science IS progressing some.
If the US has reduced itself again to divide and be conquered, I say no thanks. You do not have an answer for much of anything. Not now and not in the future.
Save your hate mail and spam. Yes, I am a christian. Yes, I believe in science. No - I am not a hater. No, I do not have a political agenda. Do I believe in my fellow man? ?????

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It takes more faith to believe in evolution than creation. I am excited to have a chance to visit creation/intelligent design museums. If you believe evolution is true, why do you feel so threatened by creationism? Could it be, there's an inkling of doubt in your soul about evolving from a monkey? The more technology advances, the more I believe in God - which is ironic since science aims to 'prove' God is dead and He keeps finding new ways to shock elitists!!!

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I love humans; I just don't understand you guys. Your brain is so large, yet so many of you fill it with junk, not unlike how so many of you fill your stomach. I am fascinated watching the science channels on satellite TV...and usually so disgusted after watching History Channel, I feel like hurling my dinner. (Let's not even talk about Fox News. Pass the Pepto.)
It's like the Fundamentalist/Creationists among you are saying to The Great Spirit (you guys call it God), "Even though You gave me brains, I ain't gonna use 'em. I'm just gonna shut my mind to all this learning stuff, shut my eyes and ears and let You lead me unto the path of righteousness."
If I were The Great Spirit, I'd be shouting back, "What in the pluperfect Hell did I give you those brains and sense organs for? No way you humans should have dominion over My earth! Think I'll give it to the pigs."
---Rrrandy Wurst (wurstwisdom.com)

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What does denying Global Warming have to do with creationism? How is it a religious question? This one stumps me bigtime...

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How did it ever peel bananas?

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Print this out. It is a must-have resource, complete with linked references. click here

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their Bible. It's not enough.

Leave it to American fundamentalists to turn Christianity into a Disneyland of extraordinary fairytales using absolutely no scientific method to confirm their claims (they are unable to prove anything except that they are ignoramuses). In the end their “proof” all boils down to “the Bible told me so”. They are ludicrous and should be ignored, and America needs to create an education system for its people where real learning takes place, not elementary and high schools controlled by religious freaks or schools like Liberty University run by frauds who claim to have dinosaur bones two or three thousand years old. American fundamentalists are not different than their Muslim counterparts - they have a lot in common.

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Before they seize power and establish a world according to their doctrines, totalitarian movements conjure up a lying world of consistency which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself; in which, through sheer imagination, uprooted masses can feel at home and are spared the never-ending shocks which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations. The force possessed by totalitarian propaganda -- before the movements have the power to drop iron curtains to prevent anyone's disturbing, by the slightest reality, the gruesome quiet of an entirely imaginary world--lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world." -- Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism"


Arendt makes the big mistake of confusing a normally developed human ADULT mind with the underdeveloped (emotionally-arrested) human infant mind, which naturally depends on lies (self-delusion) if its natural needs are not met by supportive loving parents/guardians. The world is full of "adult" babies "living" in their unreal world of fantasy, that is, not actually relating to their fellow human (adult) beings in a normal rational way. Ergo their need to build a fantasy world around them, in the shape of gated communities, or massive walls around the wider community. FEAR keeps them afraid of Life, of venturing out into life and learning by trial and error, as real (normal) adults do.

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According to Adam Curtis' BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares" availabe free on-line at:

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

the American swing towards fundamentalism started in the late 50s and early 60s with Leo Strauss. He and his "disciples" (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz etc) were afraid that the American people were becoming too liberal, too permissive. They formulated the idea that the populace should be sold "noble lies" in order to herd them towards the "right way" of thinking.

So in the 80s, when the CIA could find no evidence of Soviet subs patrolling off the East Coast it was "proof" to Cheney that there were in fact Soviet subs there. This noble lie was designed to instill fear and therefore obedience to those who "think correctly".

Ironically, an egyptian scholar (forget his name) was in America during those years and feared the same thing, i.e. liberalism and freedom, and he returned to the middle east determined that those ideas would not spread to his homeland. He was the inspiration for Al Qaeda.

So the America we see today and it's stated no.1 enemy are basically 2 sides of the same coin.

I'm sure if the people on both "sides", rather than their leaders had their way, then the world would be saner.

A more recent documentary by Curtis (called "The Trap") is also available…

Enjoy…

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What I don't understand is how people can't comprehend an infinite and eternal universe, but they have no problem accepting a deity with the same qualifications. If "god" can have no beginning and no end, why can't all of the matter and energy in the universe just be eternal? God would not be necessary. There woud be no need for a creation. Everything just is. Always was. Always will be. The manifestations change and gather and separate into different forms, but the whole sum is always there. I think that many people just take that concept and call it "god" because they need to put a face to it. In the case of Xians (who believe they were created in god's image) it is a nice way of taking just a little credit for creating the universe. "If I'm like God, and he created everything, then I kind of created everything!"

I think the biggest problem that many people have is that they have no concept of how long eternity really is. Forever people! Not a long long long time. Forever. Eternal. Infinite. It is difficult for the human mind to wrap around the infinite. We tend to think that since we begin and end, and other things around us begin and end, then everything MUST begin and end as well. It isn't necessarily so. People need to "think outside the box" (i know i hate that expression too) a little bit and realize that humans are not the center of the universe. In reality we really aren't all that important. Just another insignificant speck on the landscape of an incredibly large universe. We all need to get over ourselves a little bit, especially those who think they have "the answer". And you know who you are! ;)

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A quick summary of the garden party
God created beings, put tree in garden with forbidden fruit that would kill beings, beings ate forbidden fruit after temptation by evil force, beings banished from garden. God knew all of this would happen. What was in Gods Head? Create a being give them the knowledge of good and evil (thank God for the forbidden fruit) give them a choice and see how they act. God must not have wanted these beings to run around the garden munching here and there like the other creatures in the garden.
A quick summary of evolution
Organisms best fitted to survive in an ecosystem will be fruitful and multiply in that ecosystem. Mutations can increase survival probability of organisms in an ecosystem, and those organisms will be fruitful and multiply. Sounds natural to me call it natural selection of survival probability by the ecosystem. The ecosystem evolves an organism with rational cognitive processes; cognitive processes increases the survival probability of the organism because the organism can modify the ecosystem. The natural ecosystem no longer selects the organism; the organism selects the ecosystem. In the natural environment when an organism changes the ecosystem to the point where the organism is no longer best suited to survive in the ecosystem the organism goes extinct. Fortunately you have evolved knowledge of good and evil as part of the rational cognitive processes. You can decide that it is better not to change the ecosystem to the point of extinction. If you say that is natural find with me, but seems like it requires a leap of faith.
In summary
God did not want his beings to simply exist in the ecosystem like the other creatures. Evolution did not want some organisms to exist in the natural environment like the other creatures. So the question is who is best suited to protect the garden. That was one of the first two commandments that God gave to his beings. I hope you think that it is more rational not to go extinct. I just do not understand why that would be true in the natural ecosystem. One organism or another what is the difference.

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I believe that our father the sun and our mother the earth are living beings who brought forth life on this planet. So what's gonna happen to you if don't agree with me? Uh...nothing. But I'll tell you this - mom and dad are really pissed at the way we've been treating her!
Science? Nothing but a discription of god and his/her/it's laws. Incomplete as yet, but any doctrine in conflict with that is heresy.
Creation? You're kidding - right?
What about your sex life? I'll get back to you on that one. Send pictures.

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All this would be hilarious, and is when you first read it, but that the realization is tens of thousands of kids are being brainwashed by this bullshit! That part is scary as hell!!

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I must admit to being bothered by the fact that a course offered at my institution, Wake Forest University, has been once again misrepresented in a piece of journalism. You will notice that, about halfway through the article, there are several colleges and universities cited as having intelligent design classes, one of them being Wake Forest University. Unfortunately, this is not the first time this class has been inaccurately portrayed - the last time was in the Wall Street Journal back in November of 2005.

To clear things up a little, the title of this course is “The Interplay Between Science and Religion in Western Culture” - it is a class that specifically looks at how religion has affected science, and how science has affected religion in Western Civilization all the way from the time of ancient Greece up to current issues such as stem-cell research and evolution. As such, it touches upon intelligent design. Intelligent design is not "taught" in the course as one would imagine by what Mr. Hedges wrote - it is merely explained in the context of the controversy that has arisen between creationist "scientists" (and I use quotations as I do not believe these people to be truly scientists) and evolutionary scientists. So to say that the intelligent design is "taught" does nothing at all to explain this - more accurately, the controversy is taught and discussed.

I am disappointed in this inaccurate portrayal of my institution, and it makes me question whether the other institutions of higher learning have similarly been misrepresented in this column. This in turn makes me question the rest of the facts cited by the column, and although I agree with the argument, I find myself wondering if the column is truly valid in light of either the willful misrepresentation of facts, or either a lack of research. I will say I question the idea that it is a lack of research, though, given that this very misrepresentation of Wake Forest University has happened before - if you will be so kind as to follow this link http://www.wfu.edu/physics/misc/2005/wsj_editor_fin.html you will see the letter written by the professors to the last news outlet which incorrectly portrayed the course.

In closing, I would like to reassure that I myself believe in pure evolution, so this is not an upset tirade by a lonely creationist typed here. And, again, I do believe the argument of the column is correct - but the misrepresentations continue to bother me.

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One falls into transgression by being deceived.

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I hope that these "Christian" learning centers include the passages from Revelations describing how the Anti-Christ is /here on Earth named George W. Bush. I can imagine that section has a wax figure of our Beloved Leader in a red leotard with matching cape, 666 carved in his forehead, and ram-like horns curling out of the back of his head. He stands there boldly shaking his fist in the air challenging Jesus to return and save the world from a Middle-East Apocalypse.

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Things like this prove that Firesign Theatre was right in We're all Bozos on this Bus!

Reminds me of quote that has been apparently inaccurately attributed to P.T. Barnum:

There's a sucker born every minute.

This whole concept is a slap in the face of every Christian --
Thinking they could push this crap off on any 'thinking' person is an insult.

Who is REALLY behind this concept!?!

What a bunch of bunk!

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Something you should know:

here in Latin America (I'm from Chile) the great model for our own "drug war" is the wise DEA-FBI recipes. You should see all those "progressive" people talking this "martial" hymns against drugs.
In Latin America there is an old permanent culture abour drugs. Drug business and drug business culture (an important point to consider and analize) exist because they were created and developed by drug producers from USA, Mexico and Colombia, that had USA as their principal market.
And what's more: it seems there has been a very consequent politics (principally made up by CIA) of drug-dealing in Europe after WWII (Italy, for sure), Southeast Asia (60-70s) and Latin America (remember Noriega?). Maybe there is a connection with an accusation the past year made the former chief of the 1st chilean secret police under Pinochet regime, Manuel Contreras -who, you know, was the coordinator of Condor Operation, that was evidently known and backed-up by CIA-, about cocaine PROCESSING in chilean military quarters, managed by Marco Antonio Pinochet -son of Augusto (I can say that in the region I live there's a common saying that M. A. Pinochet INTRODUCED the massive offer of cocaine in Valparaiso y Viña del Mar, the most important touristical places of Chile) and with the professional aide of the chemist Eugenio Berríos (quite a dark character, I recommend you google him: the last thing to know was that he poisoned with nerve gas our former president Eduardo Frei Montalva as he was in a hospital).

Keep on,
our problems are not so different from the ones you have.

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Well, Christianity was the religion (via the Catholic Church by the Jesuits) that came up with the doctrine (supposedly no longer used by Christians) of "holy deception." In other words, if the Church lies to you and your soul is 'saved' thereby, it is acceptable to God. It really means that the Church embraces the concept that "The ends justify the means," which Christ Himself rejected in the Bible these people claim to follow.

I think the Christians Church in all its forms in the US has long since stopped being a religious organization and has become a political pressure group. As such, I think ALL churches, Christian or not, that embark on missions of blatant political influence should immediately lose their IRS non-profit status and be treated as a PAC. No appeal, no mercy. They have gotten a free ride long enough at the taxpayer's expense.

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Kentucky Museum

Here's a rhetoric-heavy article that talks about the Childrens Museum in Newt Gingrich's hometown of Cobb County GA, where they were pressured to include human footprints next to dinosaur bones

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Cristain right - Islamic extremist. Any difference.

They both have used terroristic attacks to get their point across.

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This is actually very humorous to me. I've noticed a reoccuring pattern in this article. One that says, "lets put the Creation science and it's beleivers in the dirt so we don't have to try to prove them wrong, because we would fail miserably". You know it's true. Evolution, if you have any sense of logic, can't make sense. It's worse than saying that aluminum, red paint, white paint and coca-cola came flying out of the sky and 4.5 billion years later, BAM a beautifully constructed coca cola can, filled with delicious, fresh soft drink. How likely is that? you ask yourself? Well, fairy tales always went like this, Frog + Kiss= Prince. Evolution goes like this, Frog + time (4.5 billion years) = Prince. So, both creation and evolution are religions that cannot be proved. BUT I beleive, In the beginning God.... and you beleive, In the beginning a big cloud of gas, or dirt. Congratulations, you've just been promoted for your genius IQ.

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