COMMENTS: 101
From the Mirage of a Middle-Class Life to the Slavery of Debt
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Today's bankruptcy rate is ten times what it was during the Great Depression, foreclosures are at a 37-year high and the United States has a negative savings rate, yet we're told every day that the economy is going gangbusters.
George W. Bush often points out that more Americans own their own homes today than ever before. He doesn't mention that they also have less equity in those homes than ever before. Every day brings news of the potential scope of the emerging "sub-prime" loan scandal -- what Robert Kuttner called "deregulation's latest gift" -- and new indicators that the housing market that's driven so much of the economy for the past five years is a bubble that's begun to burst right before our eyes.
Compounding our personal debt problems are our representatives, equally profligate spenders who are just as happy to run up enormous budget deficits and who reflexively guarantee and subsidize trillions of dollars of new loans to already strapped American businesses and consumers.
It's a pretty good time to ask ourselves just how we got here.
Writer and film director James Scurlock does just that in the documentary, and now book, Maxed Out: Hard Times, Easy Credit and the Era of Predatory Lenders. The film is a sprawling look at the seamy underside of the American credit industry -- an industry whose practices have changed dramatically since deregulation, and not for the better -- and at those who end up caught in a trap of their own creation.
The film is not perfect. Its view is broad but lacks depth; while it makes its point with some really effective storytelling, the documentary acts on an emotional level but lacks the kind of narrative power that makes Michael Moore's films, for example, such controversial cultural touchstones.
What Scurlock's camera does brilliantly is lay bare an issue that affects millions of working Americans but is usually buried under layers of shame and taboo. The film tells the individual human stories that lie behind the bankruptcy statistics, behind the foreclosure numbers. The book, released this week, follows up with much of the narrative power and depth that the film missed.
AlterNet caught up with Scurlock by phone this week to talk about his project and the country's emerging debt crisis more generally.
Joshua Holland: You really tapped into something at the right moment -- people have become aware of the issue of debt, and we're now hearing about it described as an emerging crisis.
James Scurlock : When I started the project a lot of people didn't even know what bankruptcy reform was, but most do now. A few weeks ago, nobody knew what "subprime" meant and now because of this whole mortgage fiasco I think everyone knows what that means. So here we are, two years after the start of the project and everything discussed in the film and the book has gotten worse. As we talked to people for the film, it became pretty obvious that things were just totally out of control and there was this sense that at some point the chickens are coming home to roost and that's largely what's been happening. I'm not gloating about that -- it's really tragic.
But my sense -- and I've talked to a lot of people since the project's been done -- is that the really big system hits are yet to come. There are a lot of bad mortgages out there; there are a lot of these "liar loan" mortgages out there; there are a lot of credit cards and people used to paying off their bills by refinancing their houses every year.
Holland: Debt -- or credit -- has always been an important part of the economy; it allows people to invest and it encourages entrepreneurship -- all the standard things we learn about in Econ 101. But one thing I came away with is that we're looking at a very different credit industry in the last couple of decades than what we experienced earlier. What's different between the credit industry today compared to, for example, the industry during my parents' generation?
Scurlock: The biggest change, by far, is how the financial industry sells debt -- how it sells credit cards and mortgages and all these different products. A generation ago, you'd go to the bank for a personal loan and that was a very rigorous process. You had to provide them with proof of earnings -- your tax returns -- and you gave them references and really had to work for it. The flip side of that was that if they gave you a loan, you got it at a reasonable interest rate. Now we're in a situation where we're getting 17 billion hits of direct mail encouraging us to borrow at often very high interest rates; we're getting e-mails every day encouraging us to refinance our homes; we get offers of credit for every conceivable thing from plastic surgery to automobiles -- there's a credit card now for gambling and one to pay off your taxes. Everything. Small businesses never used to use credit cards at all. They'd go to the bank and get a small business loan with a fixed payment. Now they're primarily using credit cards.
At the same time, the way the credit industry behaves has just completely transformed itself. Its underwriting standards have gone way down and that's a big part of the reason we're seeing so many problems now.
Holland: That's a good transition point. I read somewhere that you were voted the most conservative person in your class at Wharton Business School …
Scurlock: Actually, in my high school …
Holland: OK, in high school. The reason I found that interesting is that you give very short shrift to the traditional conservative narrative around these issues. You don't focus a lot on "personal responsibility" -- on the often really bad choices people make on the way to getting into problems with debt. You focus on these unbelievably predatory situations -- scenes like the mentally handicapped guy with the low-interest government loan who you show getting hoodwinked into this high-interest loan. Respond to that.
Scurlock: You know, everybody in the film and everyone in the book will readily admit that they screwed up. They made a mistake: they bought to many commemorative plates from Franklin Mint or they took out cash advances to pay their mortgage or they bought one of those Ab-tronic belts that are supposed to give you perfect abs in five minutes or they built a 10,000 square-foot McMansion which they knew they wouldn't be able to afford if interest rates were to go up -- which they did -- and on and on.
So that's all there, but what surprised me -- and what got a lot of these people into such deep trouble -- is that lenders weren't asking for their money back along with a reasonable return and maybe a fee or two. They were asking for multiples of what these people had originally borrowed. The line between a loan-shark and a reputable bank has now become so blurred with these banks all writing high-risk, high-interest loans and slapping on all these fees and coming up with all these schemes like double-cycle billing and universal default and on and on.
It's getting to the point now where people actually have a hard time figuring out just exactly what they owe. There was one woman in the film who had a gambling problem -- someone who was very irresponsible, and no one would argue otherwise. But in one year her $12,000 debt went to $50,000 and she didn't make any new charges. There was a guy who testified before Congress recently and he had borrowed $3,200 and had paid Chase back $5,000 or $6,000 and they were still demanding another $5,000 from him.
And if you look at every study done or if you look at what New Year's resolutions people make it becomes clear: people want to pay their debts off. But they're increasingly getting into situations where their $1,000 debts are becoming $4,000, or their mortgage payments are doubling and they don't understand how that happened and in many cases it's just devastating.
Now, there are two parties to these contracts -- that's absolutely true. But the banks have the ability to change the terms and conditions, at will, and these contracts have become so complex that even the Harvard Law professor in the film has a hard time making sense of them. Sometimes bankers can't make sense of the mortgages they're selling. So, caveat emptor, yes, but you should be able to walk into a major banking institution without worrying that you're going to get loan-sharked.
Holland: Maybe you can explain something that I think would be fairly counterintuitive for most people. You say in the book that the common view many people have about bankers is that they're this conservative breed who make their money by being cautious, by writing smart loans, but in fact the real money is made by lending on the margins -- by giving loans to people who are most likely to have problems paying them back.
Scurlock: That's right, it is counter-intuitive. It's because it's gone from a business based on a conservative business model where you were loaning to people who could safely pay you back and you weren't making a ton of money -- just a bit on the spread -- so you had to look at all your risks very, very carefully in order to make money. That model is now history, and the new one is that you charge a huge amount of fees, and a very high rate of interest. So the trick is actually getting people who will pay the most interest and the highest fees.
Credit card fees went from $1.7 billion dollars per year in 1996 to almost $18 billion last year -- an increase of more than a 1000%, and that's where the money is. Now you take someone who pays their bills on time, who has savings and pays their credit cards down each month, well they're not going to pay those fees. They don't have to. And you want someone who really needs the credit, who will be willing to pay a very high price for it.
One thing you've got to understand is that we have a negative savings rate in this country. Two out of three people can't pay their credit cards off each month. At the same time, last year we cashed $800 billion dollars out of home equity. Trillions of dollars in the last few years have been cashed out of people's homes and much of that went to paying off credit card bills. And the cycle continues. So it's a bit like Enron -- you've got some wishful thinkers, and then there are these bankers making enormous fees and at the end nobody's stepping in to stop the party.
Holland: To what degree do you see this as a kind of cultural manifestation -- a reflection of how much value we as Americans tend to put on material wealth, or how much we see material wealth as a proxy for self-worth?
Scurlock: I think that has a lot to do with the taboo nature of the problem -- a lot of people just don't want to about it. Until Katrina, I don't think many people had really seen images of poor Americans. There's this scene in the film where Robin leach of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous says nobody would watch a show called "lifestyles of the poor and unknown." We just make poor people invisible in this country and there's a sense that if you can't afford something, you've failed.
And the truth is, there are a lot of people in this country who look like they're middle class but in fact if you took away their credit cards you'd see that they're actually quite poor.
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Mar 24, 2007 12:40 AM
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I don't advocate breaking the law or anything illegal.
One could imagine, as a screenplay or novel, some actions that could fight this system but far be it from me to mention things like:
1) interfering with various banking machines
2) using cash for all transactions
3) using barter method to avoid tax/trace (I'll fix your engine you give me some chickens)
4) not paying the IRS anything they are not entitled to and/or filing returns that are 'complex'
5) buying/trading guns on the individual market (nothing scares them more than people owning weapons and not know where they are).
6) continue to post subversive ideas on internet boards that are being, probably, run by the establishment
I do not advocate breaking the law, any ideas expressed are for entertainment value only.
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» RE: Bankruptcy and, for the most part, foreclosures are more hidden
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Business Reply Envelopes - mail them back empty!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Bankruptcy and, for the most part, foreclosures are more hidden
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 24, 2007 1:20 AM
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Don't fall into the trap.
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» Panopticon Nation
Posted by: eddie torres
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Mar 24, 2007 1:37 AM
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Coincidentally, I was making a comment on another article today, and referred to the Penn Square Bank debacle. It was the first time I'd thought about it in years, and yet here's another article that cuts to the same heart.
For those of you that don't know the history, Penn Square Bank was a shopping centre bank in Oklahoma that nearly brought down some of the biggest banks in the US, by lending all sorts of money to people without adequate checks. Because they were small, they 'upstreamed' their loans, so the big banks would effectively finance them on the understanding that Penn Square had done the paperwork. Oops.
Yes, the situation here is a bit different: the Penn Square loans were large, to Okie oilmen, while today's personal loans are multitudinous, but small. But a lot of small loans still make up a helluva lot of money, and if they're all doing it, then no-one will be immune if it starts to shake. Very scary stuff.
If you're interested in reading about it, the book is Funny Money by Mark Singer. My copy has great cover art by Ralph Steadman, hot diggety.
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» That one always flies under the radar
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: From politically worrying to economically frightening
Posted by: ARTLADY
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Posted by: HughScott on Mar 24, 2007 4:51 AM
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Talk about ingenuity! We got to the Moon using slide rules and built a giant economy without credit cards. However, I did miss the Great Depression, which may well be a new experience for me.
Soon.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption (one reason why Bush won’t let Karl Rove testify under oath in the U.S. attorneys’ firing scandal).
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» Except that America never did get to the moon! Violence and deceit, that's America!
Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Down Under drivel (and the Moon is made out of cheese)
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Down Under drivel (and the Moon is made out of cheese)
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Credit cards: the beginning of the end.
Posted by: JSquercia
» To JSquercia: Sad indeed.
Posted by: HughScott
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Posted by: willie.horton on Mar 24, 2007 5:26 AM
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One example: He had a secure government job, but every week he would cash his paycheck, count the money into envelopes for each of his bills, and then deposit it in his checking account.
Another example: Despite his relatively high-paying job, he felt compelled to fix cars on the side for cash. He used the cash for gasoline, groceries and other daily expenditures, leaving the income from his engineering job intact.
He's 82 now, living in Oklahoma (in a nice house, with no mortgage and zero debts) because of its low property taxes, and he has always urged me to be prepared to pack everything up and move out there to live with him "when the economy collapses again."
Lately, I'm starting to take him seriously.
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» My dad did the same thing
Posted by: elmarco
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: pocomoco
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: ARTLADY
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: bouyant
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: My dad DIDN'T live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: My dad DIDN'T live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» UNtruthfull one.....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: UNtruthfull one.....You are the admitted liar.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: UNtruthfull one.....YES YES
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: UNtruthfull one - you almost got it right this time smartass
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: Catoufofthebag
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: bigfoot
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Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 24, 2007 8:46 AM
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» Maxpayne is right.
Posted by: HughScott
» Meh. Not really.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» To BetterFuture: Ask the 37 million Americans living in poverty how wealthy we are,
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: To BetterFuture: Ask the 37 million Americans living in poverty how wealthy we are,
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» The rich donate on average 1% of their income -- the poor more than that.
Posted by: HughScott
» Obviously you've never tried....
Posted by: Michiganman
» Michidandychum! How dahheckuvya been!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Abetterfuture your making valid points.....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Meh. Not really.
Posted by: cottontail
» It's What Kind of Regulations and Wealth Disparity
Posted by: sofla100
» A valid point, you've raised.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: ateo on Mar 24, 2007 8:49 AM
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Maybe dig a hole in a mountain in Wyoming and live una-bomber style?
Nah, I think I'll just wait it out and see where this all takes us. Life is the most amusing of all plays.
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» "...go with the flow..." is all 'economy' is about.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: ateo on Mar 24, 2007 8:53 AM
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For a smart debt-averse consumer using credit cards is awesome!
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» RE: The credit card companies pay ME
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» UntruthfulOne Let em eat cake
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: UntruthfulOne Let em eat cake - we've established that you are a liar.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: random people arguing
Posted by: ateo
» RE: random people arguing
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Better to have them with us than...
Posted by: ateo
» Yeah I really care.....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Yeah I really care.....
Posted by: ateo
» You're right to be proud ateo
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME (But is it worth the struggle?)
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME (But is it worth the struggle?)
Posted by: Trazom
» Harvard Law School professor was saying the very same thing on NP's Fresh Air today
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 24, 2007 10:58 AM
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Posted by: djnoll on Mar 24, 2007 11:45 AM
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Now I tell you this, not for sympathy, but to point out that even with all the best intentions, a person can find themselves being squeezed by this system of living on credit. I used to counsel families that were in trouble, and the majority of that trouble revolved around credit cards. I told them to cut up the cards, use a debit card, plan their bill paying, and stop the extras that they did not need. While a few listened to what I was saying, most did not, and all I could think of was how much trouble credit cards can cause.
My parents - children of the Great Depression - may have done a lot of things to try to improve our lives, but the one thing they did not do to us was say NO, because of the sense of deprivation they had felt as children. Now we, the Baby Boomers and our children, will have to learn the lesson again - you only buy what you can afford to pay for NOW. And it will be a hard lesson.
It wil mean no more toys, fancy cars, or big homes. It will mean learning to live on only what you earn, and the fact is, folks, what you earn is not enough to afford the type of life you think you are entitled to. It is not a question of entitlement, as some people think it is, but rather of what a person earns that makes for a quality of life. It will mean learning to live in smaller homes, drive older cars, read books form the library, using less energy, growing some of your own food, walking places to save gas.
This does not diminish the quality of one's life - it may be a shock at first, but trust me, having gone from a $120,000 income to a $6,000 income in the space of three days, I know it can be done. It is ironic that when it happened to me, nearly 20 years ago, I found that I became more aware of what the world held. I would walk my little dog each day, and she showed me the flowers I missed when I was driving, the children I never met in my neighborhood, and how to stay healthy by walking. I realized once the shock wore off, that I actually liked my life better and that there were more important things in life than fancy homes or expensive, fast cars. It is a hard lesson, but one that can be quite liberating.
It will be a new lesson for society, but it may be the very one that can save it. Try this for one week: put away your credit cards; budget $25 per person for food and $50 for non-food groceries(look for coupons and sales to stretch the money); one tank of gas only; and the payment of one major bill. Set aside money for quarterly bills and savings that equals 10% of your gross pay. You either will have to find other ways to supplement your income for that week or you will have to look closely at your bills. Then Google "Mary Hunt" and go to her website to learn more about how you can learn to reduce your debt, save money, and avoid bankruptcy. She did when she was left with hundred's of 1,000's in debt.
It will make life infinitely easier, I can guarantee you.
http://www.standanddeliveramerica.com
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» RE: A New Lesson for Society, Again.
Posted by: armybrat8
» RE: A New Lesson for Society, Again.
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: A New Lesson for Society, Again.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Well if that isn't capitalism at its finest!
Posted by: guitrr
» NOT SURPRISED guitrr MORE CRAP
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: NOT SURPRISED guitrr MORE CRAP
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Well if that isn't capitalism at its finest!
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: kentropic on Mar 24, 2007 12:35 PM
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Be sure to support your local library!
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 24, 2007 12:42 PM
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We need to live in equality...NO RICH PEOPLE. No private ownership of big businesses. We cannot 'fix' a system that is based on profit. Profit leads to environmental destruction.
We need to all become 'poor'. Small homes, gardens, wearing true work clothes-blue jeans and overhalls. We need to take pride in being poor.
The first question we need to ask is..."How will this be good for my family, my farm, my town, my country, my world".
Environment based. Not profit based. We need to organize. That is why we are so depressed and debt-ridden and worried and busy with stupid meaningless "jobs'. It is to keep us from getting together and taking back our country and our lives.
Everyone needs to watch the old movie..IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE-about 10 times. The Building and Loan-says it all regarding economics. The old house they fix up...says it all regarding what we should value in a home.
"People should be living in homes they built themselves and eating food they grew themselves"-THE GRAPES OF WRATH
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» RE: RICH
Posted by: henderson
» And the politicians
Posted by: Eat Politicians
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Posted by: paschn on Mar 24, 2007 12:55 PM
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The ones I simply LOATHE are the whores with political titles who sell THEIR services to Israel and the big corporations. You know, like McCain, Bush, Limbaugh, Hannity et al. in fact, doesn't McSwine sit on the Federal Banking Commission?The Same McSwine who's papa hid the Israeli murder of our servicemen on the USS Liberty from the US sheeple for 40 years?
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Posted by: jaggurnaut on Mar 24, 2007 3:43 PM
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» RE: is it scurlock or spurlock???????
Posted by: Catoufofthebag
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 24, 2007 6:39 PM
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» RE: Lack of Regulation Due to Well Lobbied/Monied Politicians
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: cinattra on Mar 25, 2007 5:12 AM
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The credit we use today is no different than the bank loans that George Bailey from its a "Wonderful Life" gave to his customers.
In other words not spending money is more dangerous than spending money. Even God knows this with his parable of the Talents from the Book of Mathew.
Stuff your money in a mattress all you want and it will slowly lose its value over time from inflation. Illiquidity would definitely send the entire world into a situation whereby we'd skip the next Great Depression and go right into the next Dark Ages.
As long as responsible users of money counter balance the knucklehead users of money we'll be fine. Hopefully the new credit laws will make people think twice before over extending themselves beyond their means.
My heart goes out to people who go into debt due to medical bills or some injury that keeps them from working.
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» Learn some economics
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: James Scurlock is wrong
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: James Scurlock is wrong
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: cinattra on Mar 25, 2007 5:16 AM
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» RE: Credit Unions vs Banks
Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Credit Unions vs Banks
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 25, 2007 7:33 AM
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Advertising and easy credit has fed the beast. But all of this is "biting back" as pointed out in the good interview by Joshua Holland of AlterNet. Thanks
We need early, values based, education of our children both at home and at school to ensure that, someday, they understand that given basic necessities of life like food, clothing, shelter etc., that happiness is found in meaningful work and in human relationships
But my views might tag me as anti-American? So be it.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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Posted by: mite on Mar 25, 2007 9:50 AM
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Queen Elizabeth and English Bannkers control and has amended U.S. Social Security.
Search: The Ultimate Delision by Stephan Kimbol Ames-
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Posted by: WWMD on Mar 25, 2007 10:10 AM
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Tragically, my neighbors have not fared so well. My neighborhood is still so new that we have vacant lots for new construction on the streets surrounding mine. However, almost every existing house in the area has its second or third owner, and I am saddened to see my friendly neighbors selling off their 3 to 5-year-old homes because they can't make the payments. They are not "knuckleheads" who made bad choices. They are merchants and professionals who make good money, but not good enough for the mortgage companies.
What's more, houses are no longer selling like beer at a chili festival. I sold my 30 year old home in 2003 in only 2 weeks. People who wanted into my new neighborhood were waiting up to a year to move into new construction. Now, it takes 9 months to a year to sell a beautiful, almost-new home in this scenic location, and unbelievably, the contractors are cutting new roads into the desert and constructing blocks of 100 new homes at a time, even with such a lousy market.
Someone previously claimed that "God" wanted people to invest their money wisely and that it was just tough tacos for those "knucklehead users of money" who got screwed. Well, I would suggest that the next time he reads his Bible, he would do well to spend some time reading about all the Biblical prohibitions against usury, and also take to heart all the Bibilical requirements to forgive (not foreclose) loans that cannot reasonably be repaid; to return collateral to debtors who need it to meet their daily needs; and the obligation to cancel all outstanding debts and return all collateral, regardless of the status of the loan, every 49 years during the "Jubilee."
Friends, next year is Election Year. Next year is the time for us to speak with one voice and face the banks with one heart and make them change their destructive ways!
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Mar 25, 2007 10:12 AM
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At least loan sharks just shoot off your knee caps. That's far less cruel than putting families tens of thousands of dollars further into an impossible dept. And I'm a student with a loan, don't get me started on that! If you're wondering what "family values" governments have lead in this deregulation... oh, I don't have to tell ya do I?
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» .... and immoral
Posted by: peachmcd
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 25, 2007 10:35 AM
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Time Mag. has cover story about Bible classes now being taught in schools. Thomas Paine and Henry George should be taught instead.
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» RE: We are owned...
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Mar 25, 2007 11:04 AM
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However, an economic ignoramous like Bush will produce a hyper-inflation that reduces the American dollar to a nearly zero purchasing power before we get to the deflation side of the equation. The only protection is precious metals, which I suspect Bush will try to confiscate at the last minute.
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» RE: Debt = Depression
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Mar 26, 2007 10:42 AM
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Lastly, people refuse to heed the words of Mormon Prophets who have clearly warned for 50+ years against the growing materialim of all too many people and the desire to have it NOW rather than saving to pay for their materilaistic appetites. Debt makes a person a SLAVE to his passions. High taxes makes us SLAVES to government.
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» RE: THE FED, DEBT, AND THE COUNSEL OF MORMON PROPHETS
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Trazom on Mar 26, 2007 1:52 PM
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Conventional wisdom says that when interest rates are low you should opt for a fixed rate, and when interest rates are very high you should opt for a variable rate mortgage. This of course assumes you hit the cycle just right, whether it be on the interest rate peak or trough. Let's just assume for simplicity that you more or less know when interest rates are at or near their peaks. Then my question is why on earth, during a time of 40-year low interest rates, did so many people opt for adjustable rate mortgages? Didn't they know the day of reckoning would come? Wouldn't it have been prudent to guarantee themselves a low rate for the length of their loan? But instead we witnessed a lot of the opposite, contributing to a large portion of much of the grief currently facing the new embattled and near-broke homeowners these days.
I wonder how many people opted for ARMs back in the mid eighties when interest rates were in the high teens and low twenties? How many of them thought maybe they were at or near a peak and it would be smart to take out a ARM, banking on eventual lower rates? But I'll bet a significant, albeit majority of people went with the conventional rate for fear of even higher rates.
My point is people seem to chase trends, when they should be trying to predict the market a little bit. Most financial experts know this and that is why they should have outlawed ARMs for everyone except those making at least a certain amount, say $200,000 or more. Please note I'm not advocating that a lot of the misery many new homeowners are going through these days is necessarily all their fault. I just think there should have been some better safety nets in place so this didn't happen, mainly because most people are not good at making financial decisions like these.
As a side note, I wanted to point out the irony of ARMs vs. fixed rates in that as inflation creeps up, the disparity between those with fixed rate loans and those with ARMs only increases. We all know that people with ARMs that reset have to pay higher and higher mortgage payments each month, but the rewards for having a fixed rate are doubly sweet. First, your payment is fixed, second, over time the effects of inflation on your paycheck will make it easier to repay the loan, making your loan work for you to some degree.
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» RE: ARMs should be reserved for the wealthy
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: ARMs should be reserved for the wealthy
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 28, 2007 1:30 AM
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So if you have a moderate salary but 100.000 personak debts and 200.000 mortgage etc. you know after 3 years poverty you are FREE. This is because many Europe countries have a mixed economy.
The government gives the intrest rates so a loan shark has no legal protection.
American should get rid of the idea that Capitalisme means wealth also for the average person. It gives wealth to the Capitalists.
Please read Orwell 1984, many communistic and fascistisc horror now rules inside America.
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Mar 24, 2007 12:40 AM
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I don't advocate breaking the law or anything illegal.
One could imagine, as a screenplay or novel, some actions that could fight this system but far be it from me to mention things like:
1) interfering with various banking machines
2) using cash for all transactions
3) using barter method to avoid tax/trace (I'll fix your engine you give me some chickens)
4) not paying the IRS anything they are not entitled to and/or filing returns that are 'complex'
5) buying/trading guns on the individual market (nothing scares them more than people owning weapons and not know where they are).
6) continue to post subversive ideas on internet boards that are being, probably, run by the establishment
I do not advocate breaking the law, any ideas expressed are for entertainment value only.
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» RE: Bankruptcy and, for the most part, foreclosures are more hidden
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Business Reply Envelopes - mail them back empty!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Bankruptcy and, for the most part, foreclosures are more hidden
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 24, 2007 1:20 AM
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Don't fall into the trap.
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» Panopticon Nation
Posted by: eddie torres
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Posted by: HeroesAll on Mar 24, 2007 1:37 AM
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Coincidentally, I was making a comment on another article today, and referred to the Penn Square Bank debacle. It was the first time I'd thought about it in years, and yet here's another article that cuts to the same heart.
For those of you that don't know the history, Penn Square Bank was a shopping centre bank in Oklahoma that nearly brought down some of the biggest banks in the US, by lending all sorts of money to people without adequate checks. Because they were small, they 'upstreamed' their loans, so the big banks would effectively finance them on the understanding that Penn Square had done the paperwork. Oops.
Yes, the situation here is a bit different: the Penn Square loans were large, to Okie oilmen, while today's personal loans are multitudinous, but small. But a lot of small loans still make up a helluva lot of money, and if they're all doing it, then no-one will be immune if it starts to shake. Very scary stuff.
If you're interested in reading about it, the book is Funny Money by Mark Singer. My copy has great cover art by Ralph Steadman, hot diggety.
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» That one always flies under the radar
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: From politically worrying to economically frightening
Posted by: ARTLADY
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Posted by: HughScott on Mar 24, 2007 4:51 AM
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Talk about ingenuity! We got to the Moon using slide rules and built a giant economy without credit cards. However, I did miss the Great Depression, which may well be a new experience for me.
Soon.
Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption (one reason why Bush won’t let Karl Rove testify under oath in the U.S. attorneys’ firing scandal).
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» Except that America never did get to the moon! Violence and deceit, that's America!
Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Down Under drivel (and the Moon is made out of cheese)
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: Down Under drivel (and the Moon is made out of cheese)
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Credit cards: the beginning of the end.
Posted by: JSquercia
» To JSquercia: Sad indeed.
Posted by: HughScott
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Posted by: willie.horton on Mar 24, 2007 5:26 AM
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One example: He had a secure government job, but every week he would cash his paycheck, count the money into envelopes for each of his bills, and then deposit it in his checking account.
Another example: Despite his relatively high-paying job, he felt compelled to fix cars on the side for cash. He used the cash for gasoline, groceries and other daily expenditures, leaving the income from his engineering job intact.
He's 82 now, living in Oklahoma (in a nice house, with no mortgage and zero debts) because of its low property taxes, and he has always urged me to be prepared to pack everything up and move out there to live with him "when the economy collapses again."
Lately, I'm starting to take him seriously.
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» My dad did the same thing
Posted by: elmarco
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: pocomoco
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: ARTLADY
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: bouyant
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: My dad DIDN'T live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: My dad DIDN'T live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» UNtruthfull one.....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: UNtruthfull one.....You are the admitted liar.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: UNtruthfull one.....YES YES
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: UNtruthfull one - you almost got it right this time smartass
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: Catoufofthebag
» RE: My dad may live to see another Great Depression
Posted by: bigfoot
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Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 24, 2007 8:46 AM
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» Maxpayne is right.
Posted by: HughScott
» Meh. Not really.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» To BetterFuture: Ask the 37 million Americans living in poverty how wealthy we are,
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: To BetterFuture: Ask the 37 million Americans living in poverty how wealthy we are,
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» The rich donate on average 1% of their income -- the poor more than that.
Posted by: HughScott
» Obviously you've never tried....
Posted by: Michiganman
» Michidandychum! How dahheckuvya been!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Abetterfuture your making valid points.....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Meh. Not really.
Posted by: cottontail
» It's What Kind of Regulations and Wealth Disparity
Posted by: sofla100
» A valid point, you've raised.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: ateo on Mar 24, 2007 8:49 AM
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Maybe dig a hole in a mountain in Wyoming and live una-bomber style?
Nah, I think I'll just wait it out and see where this all takes us. Life is the most amusing of all plays.
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» "...go with the flow..." is all 'economy' is about.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: ateo on Mar 24, 2007 8:53 AM
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For a smart debt-averse consumer using credit cards is awesome!
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» RE: The credit card companies pay ME
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» UntruthfulOne Let em eat cake
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: UntruthfulOne Let em eat cake - we've established that you are a liar.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: random people arguing
Posted by: ateo
» RE: random people arguing
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Better to have them with us than...
Posted by: ateo
» Yeah I really care.....
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Yeah I really care.....
Posted by: ateo
» You're right to be proud ateo
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME (But is it worth the struggle?)
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: The credit card companies pay ME (But is it worth the struggle?)
Posted by: Trazom
» Harvard Law School professor was saying the very same thing on NP's Fresh Air today
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 24, 2007 10:58 AM
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Posted by: djnoll on Mar 24, 2007 11:45 AM
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Now I tell you this, not for sympathy, but to point out that even with all the best intentions, a person can find themselves being squeezed by this system of living on credit. I used to counsel families that were in trouble, and the majority of that trouble revolved around credit cards. I told them to cut up the cards, use a debit card, plan their bill paying, and stop the extras that they did not need. While a few listened to what I was saying, most did not, and all I could think of was how much trouble credit cards can cause.
My parents - children of the Great Depression - may have done a lot of things to try to improve our lives, but the one thing they did not do to us was say NO, because of the sense of deprivation they had felt as children. Now we, the Baby Boomers and our children, will have to learn the lesson again - you only buy what you can afford to pay for NOW. And it will be a hard lesson.
It wil mean no more toys, fancy cars, or big homes. It will mean learning to live on only what you earn, and the fact is, folks, what you earn is not enough to afford the type of life you think you are entitled to. It is not a question of entitlement, as some people think it is, but rather of what a person earns that makes for a quality of life. It will mean learning to live in smaller homes, drive older cars, read books form the library, using less energy, growing some of your own food, walking places to save gas.
This does not diminish the quality of one's life - it may be a shock at first, but trust me, having gone from a $120,000 income to a $6,000 income in the space of three days, I know it can be done. It is ironic that when it happened to me, nearly 20 years ago, I found that I became more aware of what the world held. I would walk my little dog each day, and she showed me the flowers I missed when I was driving, the children I never met in my neighborhood, and how to stay healthy by walking. I realized once the shock wore off, that I actually liked my life better and that there were more important things in life than fancy homes or expensive, fast cars. It is a hard lesson, but one that can be quite liberating.
It will be a new lesson for society, but it may be the very one that can save it. Try this for one week: put away your credit cards; budget $25 per person for food and $50 for non-food groceries(look for coupons and sales to stretch the money); one tank of gas only; and the payment of one major bill. Set aside money for quarterly bills and savings that equals 10% of your gross pay. You either will have to find other ways to supplement your income for that week or you will have to look closely at your bills. Then Google "Mary Hunt" and go to her website to learn more about how you can learn to reduce your debt, save money, and avoid bankruptcy. She did when she was left with hundred's of 1,000's in debt.
It will make life infinitely easier, I can guarantee you.
http://www.standanddeliveramerica.com
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» RE: A New Lesson for Society, Again.
Posted by: armybrat8
» RE: A New Lesson for Society, Again.
Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: A New Lesson for Society, Again.
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» Well if that isn't capitalism at its finest!
Posted by: guitrr
» NOT SURPRISED guitrr MORE CRAP
Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: NOT SURPRISED guitrr MORE CRAP
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Well if that isn't capitalism at its finest!
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: kentropic on Mar 24, 2007 12:35 PM
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Be sure to support your local library!
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 24, 2007 12:42 PM
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We need to live in equality...NO RICH PEOPLE. No private ownership of big businesses. We cannot 'fix' a system that is based on profit. Profit leads to environmental destruction.
We need to all become 'poor'. Small homes, gardens, wearing true work clothes-blue jeans and overhalls. We need to take pride in being poor.
The first question we need to ask is..."How will this be good for my family, my farm, my town, my country, my world".
Environment based. Not profit based. We need to organize. That is why we are so depressed and debt-ridden and worried and busy with stupid meaningless "jobs'. It is to keep us from getting together and taking back our country and our lives.
Everyone needs to watch the old movie..IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE-about 10 times. The Building and Loan-says it all regarding economics. The old house they fix up...says it all regarding what we should value in a home.
"People should be living in homes they built themselves and eating food they grew themselves"-THE GRAPES OF WRATH
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» RE: RICH
Posted by: henderson
» And the politicians
Posted by: Eat Politicians
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Posted by: paschn on Mar 24, 2007 12:55 PM
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The ones I simply LOATHE are the whores with political titles who sell THEIR services to Israel and the big corporations. You know, like McCain, Bush, Limbaugh, Hannity et al. in fact, doesn't McSwine sit on the Federal Banking Commission?The Same McSwine who's papa hid the Israeli murder of our servicemen on the USS Liberty from the US sheeple for 40 years?
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Posted by: jaggurnaut on Mar 24, 2007 3:43 PM
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» RE: is it scurlock or spurlock???????
Posted by: Catoufofthebag
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 24, 2007 6:39 PM
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» RE: Lack of Regulation Due to Well Lobbied/Monied Politicians
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: cinattra on Mar 25, 2007 5:12 AM
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The credit we use today is no different than the bank loans that George Bailey from its a "Wonderful Life" gave to his customers.
In other words not spending money is more dangerous than spending money. Even God knows this with his parable of the Talents from the Book of Mathew.
Stuff your money in a mattress all you want and it will slowly lose its value over time from inflation. Illiquidity would definitely send the entire world into a situation whereby we'd skip the next Great Depression and go right into the next Dark Ages.
As long as responsible users of money counter balance the knucklehead users of money we'll be fine. Hopefully the new credit laws will make people think twice before over extending themselves beyond their means.
My heart goes out to people who go into debt due to medical bills or some injury that keeps them from working.
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» Learn some economics
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: James Scurlock is wrong
Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: James Scurlock is wrong
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: cinattra on Mar 25, 2007 5:16 AM
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» RE: Credit Unions vs Banks
Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Credit Unions vs Banks
Posted by: mizkaye
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Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 25, 2007 7:33 AM
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Advertising and easy credit has fed the beast. But all of this is "biting back" as pointed out in the good interview by Joshua Holland of AlterNet. Thanks
We need early, values based, education of our children both at home and at school to ensure that, someday, they understand that given basic necessities of life like food, clothing, shelter etc., that happiness is found in meaningful work and in human relationships
But my views might tag me as anti-American? So be it.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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Posted by: mite on Mar 25, 2007 9:50 AM
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Queen Elizabeth and English Bannkers control and has amended U.S. Social Security.
Search: The Ultimate Delision by Stephan Kimbol Ames-
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Posted by: WWMD on Mar 25, 2007 10:10 AM
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Tragically, my neighbors have not fared so well. My neighborhood is still so new that we have vacant lots for new construction on the streets surrounding mine. However, almost every existing house in the area has its second or third owner, and I am saddened to see my friendly neighbors selling off their 3 to 5-year-old homes because they can't make the payments. They are not "knuckleheads" who made bad choices. They are merchants and professionals who make good money, but not good enough for the mortgage companies.
What's more, houses are no longer selling like beer at a chili festival. I sold my 30 year old home in 2003 in only 2 weeks. People who wanted into my new neighborhood were waiting up to a year to move into new construction. Now, it takes 9 months to a year to sell a beautiful, almost-new home in this scenic location, and unbelievably, the contractors are cutting new roads into the desert and constructing blocks of 100 new homes at a time, even with such a lousy market.
Someone previously claimed that "God" wanted people to invest their money wisely and that it was just tough tacos for those "knucklehead users of money" who got screwed. Well, I would suggest that the next time he reads his Bible, he would do well to spend some time reading about all the Biblical prohibitions against usury, and also take to heart all the Bibilical requirements to forgive (not foreclose) loans that cannot reasonably be repaid; to return collateral to debtors who need it to meet their daily needs; and the obligation to cancel all outstanding debts and return all collateral, regardless of the status of the loan, every 49 years during the "Jubilee."
Friends, next year is Election Year. Next year is the time for us to speak with one voice and face the banks with one heart and make them change their destructive ways!
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Mar 25, 2007 10:12 AM
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At least loan sharks just shoot off your knee caps. That's far less cruel than putting families tens of thousands of dollars further into an impossible dept. And I'm a student with a loan, don't get me started on that! If you're wondering what "family values" governments have lead in this deregulation... oh, I don't have to tell ya do I?
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» .... and immoral
Posted by: peachmcd
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 25, 2007 10:35 AM
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Time Mag. has cover story about Bible classes now being taught in schools. Thomas Paine and Henry George should be taught instead.
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» RE: We are owned...
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Mar 25, 2007 11:04 AM
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However, an economic ignoramous like Bush will produce a hyper-inflation that reduces the American dollar to a nearly zero purchasing power before we get to the deflation side of the equation. The only protection is precious metals, which I suspect Bush will try to confiscate at the last minute.
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» RE: Debt = Depression
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: poppop_schell on Mar 26, 2007 10:42 AM
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Lastly, people refuse to heed the words of Mormon Prophets who have clearly warned for 50+ years against the growing materialim of all too many people and the desire to have it NOW rather than saving to pay for their materilaistic appetites. Debt makes a person a SLAVE to his passions. High taxes makes us SLAVES to government.
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» RE: THE FED, DEBT, AND THE COUNSEL OF MORMON PROPHETS
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Trazom on Mar 26, 2007 1:52 PM
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Conventional wisdom says that when interest rates are low you should opt for a fixed rate, and when interest rates are very high you should opt for a variable rate mortgage. This of course assumes you hit the cycle just right, whether it be on the interest rate peak or trough. Let's just assume for simplicity that you more or less know when interest rates are at or near their peaks. Then my question is why on earth, during a time of 40-year low interest rates, did so many people opt for adjustable rate mortgages? Didn't they know the day of reckoning would come? Wouldn't it have been prudent to guarantee themselves a low rate for the length of their loan? But instead we witnessed a lot of the opposite, contributing to a large portion of much of the grief currently facing the new embattled and near-broke homeowners these days.
I wonder how many people opted for ARMs back in the mid eighties when interest rates were in the high teens and low twenties? How many of them thought maybe they were at or near a peak and it would be smart to take out a ARM, banking on eventual lower rates? But I'll bet a significant, albeit majority of people went with the conventional rate for fear of even higher rates.
My point is people seem to chase trends, when they should be trying to predict the market a little bit. Most financial experts know this and that is why they should have outlawed ARMs for everyone except those making at least a certain amount, say $200,000 or more. Please note I'm not advocating that a lot of the misery many new homeowners are going through these days is necessarily all their fault. I just think there should have been some better safety nets in place so this didn't happen, mainly because most people are not good at making financial decisions like these.
As a side note, I wanted to point out the irony of ARMs vs. fixed rates in that as inflation creeps up, the disparity between those with fixed rate loans and those with ARMs only increases. We all know that people with ARMs that reset have to pay higher and higher mortgage payments each month, but the rewards for having a fixed rate are doubly sweet. First, your payment is fixed, second, over time the effects of inflation on your paycheck will make it easier to repay the loan, making your loan work for you to some degree.
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» RE: ARMs should be reserved for the wealthy
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: ARMs should be reserved for the wealthy
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: richholland on Mar 28, 2007 1:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So if you have a moderate salary but 100.000 personak debts and 200.000 mortgage etc. you know after 3 years poverty you are FREE. This is because many Europe countries have a mixed economy.
The government gives the intrest rates so a loan shark has no legal protection.
American should get rid of the idea that Capitalisme means wealth also for the average person. It gives wealth to the Capitalists.
Please read Orwell 1984, many communistic and fascistisc horror now rules inside America.
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