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Ted Haggard's Hell on Earth

By Sarah Posner, AlterNet. Posted March 23, 2007.


A trip to Tulsa, Oklahoma lays bare the fundamentalism that made the disgraced pastor Ted Haggard live in terror of his own homosexuality.

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According to Bishop Carlton Pearson, Ted Haggard isn't going to hell. He's already in hell.

Pearson, 53, was a leading light of the contemporary Pentecostal -- or charismatic -- movement until he rejected the concept of hell a few years ago. Hell, Pearson says, does not exist. Salvation by Jesus, he maintains, is not required for eternal grace. Everyone is saved. The only hell is right here on earth, a creation of fundamentalism, scriptural literalism and the terror that fills the hearts of fundamentalists at each impure thought, each shameful moment of sexual longing. "I'm not trying to convert anybody," Pearson told me recently. "I'm just trying to convince everybody that they're loved. Ultimately redeemed, whoever they are." Pearson calls the notion that a supposedly merciful God would torture people in an eternal hell "absurd and vulgar." It's no wonder then, that Pearson was roundly condemned by his peers, including the pre-scandal Haggard, for his radical views. Haggard, Pearson said, "denounced me and said, 'hell is a physical place.' ... Well, he's right, and he's in that hell right now."

Pearson has known Haggard since they were classmates at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa in the 1970s. ORU, founded in 1963 by the televangelist and faith healer Oral Roberts, demanded "holiness" and required students to sign an honor code pledging not to drink, smoke, dance, party, have sex, or even think about sex. Engaging in any of these activities was evidence of bodily and spiritual occupation by demons that had to be cast out. "If you didn't cast them out, you bound them, 'we bind you in the name of Jesus, we bind that spirit, I rebuke and bind that spirit,'" says Pearson. "So we were always rebuking and binding the things we could exorcise from us. If we wanted to smoke or we wanted to have sex outside of covenant, but we weren't, but the desire never left us, we would just rebuke and bind it. 'I bind it in the name of Jesus.' That's what Ted was trying to do with his life, probably came to the conclusion that he couldn't handle it."

Haggard's father, said Pearson, was an intimidating 400-pound Pentecostal preacher who cast out devils. If he had known his son was gay, Pearson maintains, he "would've cast the devil out of him. ... And Ted would have spit and rolled and frothed. And he might have gyrated. Usually they vomit or they scream, or something like that." Haggard came to ORU "scarred somewhat by his encounters with his father."

Homosexuality, of course, was not tolerated at ORU. Pearson sang with Roberts' traveling musical group, the World Action Singers, from which Roberts expelled two members because they were gay. Roberts' own oldest son, Ronald, committed suicide in 1982 at the age of 37. Pearson says that Ronald, too, was gay.

Roberts' younger son Richard is now at the helm of ORU, where recently he welcomed the lollapalooza of the evangelical world, Teen Mania's Acquire the Fire. There, entertained by Christian rock bands and "dramas" -- multimedia presentations blending videos with live acting -- middle and high school kids were relentlessly reminded how to resist "deception," temptations like sex and secularism and MTV and Aeropostale. They registered their own holiness when they gave Roberts his enthusiastic applause line for denouncing the Discovery Channel documentary that reported evidence that Jesus had a family: Any suggestion that Jesus himself experienced sexual desire was expelled from the arena, where 7,000 kids from four states paid upwards of $60 apiece to get "branded by God."


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See more stories tagged with: religious right, haggard, homosexuality

Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for the American Prospect, The Gadflyer, and AlterNet. She is at work on a book about televangelists in politics.

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metaphors and religion
Posted by: wildeyes on Mar 23, 2007 3:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it is interesting to see that fundamentalist christians very often invoke the images that are similar to those of mystics. the great sufi mystic, rumi, talks about drowning in the divine. fundamentalist christians talk of being consumed by Jesus. but this is not a metaphor for these folks, it is about a personal spirit that they talk to and want to enter them. perhaps if fundamentalist christians begin to ask themselves the question, "who is Jesus?" and penetrate the question beyond a literal answer of a historical person, but to its core of the significance of "Christ," then they'll be consumed. Just like the buddhist who continues to ask, "who am I?" until he finally realizes the emptiness and fullness of all things, Christians meditating on the question "who is Christ?" may have similar revelations...

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» RE: metaphors and religion Posted by: willymack
» RE: metaphors and religion Posted by: wildeyes
No, I'm sorry, there IS a Hell...
Posted by: xbj on Mar 23, 2007 4:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...And Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, and their minions prove it beyond all shadow of any doubt. For anyone to think for a single second, that these mass murdering warpigs guilty of crimes against humanity for the single express purpose of becoming richer than any human has ever had a right to be, are going to escape hell for all the innocents their decisions have caused to be tortured and slaughtered, is not just laughable, it's every bit as psychotic as they themselves are.

What goes around comes around, and if you don't get it in this universe, rest assured it will be far, far worse for you in the next. And even if you're a complete atheist, and believe dust to dust, what possible positive compulsion could there be for being remembered in the same breath as Vlad the Impaler, Nero, or Hitler?

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» Hell is for conservatives? Posted by: erisian75
Rearranging the deck chairs on the USS Absurd Beliefs
Posted by: Moonray on Mar 23, 2007 4:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's amusing, but scary, to watch religious people seriously debate whether there's a hell, or whether Jesus literally ascended into the sky after death or whether an invisible god monitors their activities 24 hours a day and might kills them at any moment in a fit of pique.

It's quite obvious now that religious belief is a very serious form of neuroticism -- a mental illness. It's the same kind of mental process that gives rise to malignant superstitions and perhaps obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Religion is not a quaint and benign aspect of human existence, and never was. Religion kills thousands of people each year and enslaves millions of others, especially in the Middle East and South Asia. If we don't get rid of it -- or at least greatly diminish its influence on governments around the world -- it will destroy all of us. We should start in the U.S. by demanding an end to government tax exemptions for religious organizations and abolishment of all laws based solely or mainly on religious tenets.

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» Thanks and keep fighting Moonray Posted by: doctorsquared
» Good post Posted by: psychochurch
» Out with this junk...but... Posted by: vangogh69
» Absurd Beliefs Posted by: Laplandi
Discover sanity and reason
Posted by: reval on Mar 23, 2007 5:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Visit WVCSR

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» RE: Discover sanity and reason Posted by: wisewebwoman
How ironic. A man named "Haggard" being worn down by what he deserved...
Posted by: HughScott on Mar 23, 2007 5:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a retired airline pilot who spent Sunday morning layovers in my hotel room watching on TV with great amusement evangelical preachers like Haggard rave about how much Jesus loved people.

The whole time it was obvious to me that they (the preachers) loved themselves first. They were and still are great actors. Well-paid ones, by the way. Hell on Earth for them is not undeserved.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption (one reason why Bush won’t let Karl Rove testify under oath in the U.S. attorneys’ firing scandal).

NOTE to previous visitors: I recently installed an email link at the top of the K-G home page for submitting website suggestions and/or criticisms. Load me up, fellow Americans.

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Evangelicals Coming Around
Posted by: COinms on Mar 23, 2007 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm glad to see some evangelicals coming around. There has always been a minority in the church who have believed that death actually is death, and not life somewhere else.

Actually, my belief is that of the Resurrection, a doctrine lost sight of by a christianity that teaches the immortal soul. Pretty much all people (again, my belief) will be resurrected right here on earth to face the people they either helped or hurt. If people knew they would have to beg forgiveness from those they have wronged, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to crush others. Most christians have thought they will look over the ramparts of heaven and watch the lost swim in a lake of fire, somewow deriving some type of pleasure from that. Nope. Start being nice to people, you evangelicals and fundamentalists and religious zealots of all creeds and colors. You're going to meet them face to face again, right here on earth.

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The FAUXTIANS
Posted by: williameon on Mar 23, 2007 5:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion has been usurped
by
The
FAUXTIANS
Reptilian Parasites

Reptilians
Rule
The
Media,
Government
Education
&
Corporations.

These Vampires prey on the:
Hopeless, Confused, Uneducated Poor.
For their own benefit.
For they are Rich!

Unlike Jesus.

The
Fauxtian
REPTILIAN
MINISTERS
Promise pies in
The Sky!
Just wait till you die.

Or
Better yet
Instant gratification
Vaporization
In
The Last
Nuclear War!
ARMAGEDDON
Such bliss

Life is so bad
And
They are so tortured
And insecure
In
The Truth,
That they give up the Garden!
For a pack of lies.

The Master
Healed the sick
Fed the hungry
Clothed the poor
He threw the money changers out of the Temple
&
And
So
Should
YOU!

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» RE: The FAUXTIANS Posted by: fredo1012
» Careful... Posted by: grailsnail
Sacred moment
Posted by: justAnEgg on Mar 23, 2007 6:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was just waiting for that sacred moment when money gets involved. My recommendation to young evangelical people: get drunk for 60 bucks, like a sailor. You wouldn't believe how spiritual it is, particularly afterwards, when you're hung over.

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» and I would want to... Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: and I would want to... Posted by: Astroboy
Sorry, religion is not the problem.
Posted by: Bart Thesc on Mar 23, 2007 6:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fanaticism cloaked in religion is the problem.

Your religion is your own business and you are welcome to it. My religion or lack of it is my business and if I have found the correct and "true" religion then there would be no need for me to proselytize as all would be naturally drawn to it eventually.

I know and have known many people who are truly devout in their respective religions, and they do not bear any resemblance to the hateful fanatics who purport to be representatives of this or that religion.

The question is, how do we get people to stop paying attention to the "false prophets"?

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» Yes, religion IS the problem Posted by: Moonray
» Many faces of religion Posted by: grailsnail
Haggart's Daddy
Posted by: LANCE on Mar 23, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Haggard's father, said Pearson, was an intimidating 400-pound Pentecostal
preacher who cast out devils. If he had known his son was gay, Pearson
maintains, he "would've cast the devil out of him. ... And Ted would have
spit and rolled and frothed. And he might have gyrated. Usually they vomit
or they scream, or something like that."
---------------

Hell, with a Daddy like that, who would worry about what Jesus thinks about
a xxxx in Ted's xxx?

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I live in Tulsa
Posted by: TlalocW on Mar 23, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And it can be quite unbelievable some of the crap that these "religious" people do. ORU would not be around if Oral hadn't scammed a lot of money in the 40s and 50s with his fake faith healing at tent revivals. Like the article said, his son, Richard, is in charge now. Oral is retired in Palm Springs, but every now and then comes back when the "school" needs money, usually claiming that once again, the Devil himself popped up in his bedroom to mock his faith and to promise to take away his pain (Oral has some sort of pain problem associated with old age). Of course, Oral rebukes ol' Pitch, at which point Jesus shows up and tells him what a faithful servant he is and takes away *some* of the pain.

These meetings take place on a pretty regular basis - kind of like how Mister Mxyzptlk would show up every 90 days to bug Superman until Supes could trick him into saying his name backwards. Of course, at the end of the story, Superman never begged for people to send in money like Oral and Richard do.

A lady I knew used to call the various large Tulsa churches who had Sunday talk shows where they would pray for you. Her favorite episode was where she called in pretending she was pregnant and was thinking about getting an abortion. She jumped to the head of the queue and talked live on television with the hosts who tried to convince her not to do it and gave her advice like how she just needed a good man to take care of her unlike the bum who got her pregnant and left. They asked where she met him, and she replied, "Oh, it was at your church." The phone call quickly ended after that.

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» That's hilarious! Posted by: vangogh69
» No, it's true Posted by: MartianBachelor
Roberts' Son
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Mar 23, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's important to note the sidenote about Oral Roberts' own son.

He committed suicide.

Why do Christians hate reality so much. We should comdemn them for not being here with the rest of us.

Family values, MY A**. There is no family values with respect to fundamentalist religion of any stripe.

How dare they condemn us. THEY are the ones who create hell on earth. THEY are the evil of which they speak. They're simply projecting.

See, fundamentalists, we have reason, science and psychology on our side now in the modern era. You have Bronze Age mentality, siege mentality, and ancient mythology as your 'armor', which has been established to be old, out of date and irrelevant. Your god doesn't exist anywhere except in your twisted tiny minds.

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» Slow down a minute... Posted by: Mal'ak
» RE: oberts' Son Posted by: grailsnail
"Branded By God" - Like Cattle
Posted by: thirdmg on Mar 23, 2007 8:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"7,000 kids from four states paid upwards of $60 apiece to get 'branded by God.'"

What a revealing metaphor - "branded by God," like cattle. What happens to cattle? They're slaughtered!

This is part of a curious, sick mentality which pops up among fundamentalist Christians: Comparing themselves to animals. A couple of years ago, some friends showed me a tract from some young entrepreneurial fundamentalists making the rounds in their neighborhood. They offered dog care - and they referred to themselves as dogs for Christ (complete with a dog-leash metaphor).

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Peeling the onion back another layer ...
Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 23, 2007 9:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is actually ideology; religeon - well montheistic religeon - is nothing more than ideology with some perverted mysticism thrown in. All ideologies (Marx, Rand, Aquinas, Augustine, Calvin and the rest) are totalitarian at their core and all contain the same gangsterism.

It's time we stopped trying to explain the universe and making absurd statement about "human nature" and started being practical.

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» Ideology vs. intolerance Posted by: grailsnail
Carlton Pearson
Posted by: erisian75 on Mar 23, 2007 9:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's a really good This American Life stoy on Pearson from a few years ago, easily found through a search of their site. He was a star in the evangelical movement until he had his epiphany about hell and divine grace. Afterward, his friends and admirers all turn their backs on him. He really is an amazing person. Too bad this story didn't focus exclusively on him.

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» RE: Carlton Pearson Posted by: Lyrren54
First Sign of A Fake
Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 23, 2007 9:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus didn't sell anything, said everybody could come along and didn't charge admission. He preached grace, mercy, peace and love for others as you would wish to be loved. Don't be fooled. Jesus warned that people would come into the church (not a denomination- the whole) and use it for private agendas and selfish purposes and likened them to ravenous wolves masquerading as sheep.

The Jesus of the bible didn't burden people with long lists of do's and don'ts he said to come. He taught that people who concentrated on such things were fakes and hypocrites because they were binding people to the appearance of goodness and love even as their hearts were anything but.

The good news Jesus taught was about where your heart is- not what you may have done.

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» So, who was Jesus' accountant? Posted by: eddie torres
These Hell-screaming Christians.
Posted by: tap17x on Mar 23, 2007 10:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They deserve what they preach, especially ultrahypocrites like Haggard, Swaggart, and Bakker. This form of Christianity is its own punishment; I love every tortured bit of their self-inflicted misery. Consider: they all love Bushit, the least Christian asshole in the U.S., worse than any pimp, worse than any other mass murderer, much worse than any rapist, thief, adulterer, or con man. Bushit is the one retard whom I'd love to see publicly executed. He should be slowly lowered into a vat of smoking tar. And that's what I think when I'm in a NICE mood. (Hey, FBI, are you listening? I would NOT do this myself!)

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» Yet Christians are the masochists? Posted by: freedomhawk
» Refreshing your memory Posted by: freedomhawk
» No, you are incorrect... Posted by: doctorsquared
» RE: No, you are incorrect... Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: No, you are incorrect... Posted by: trudenza
» RE: No, you are incorrect... Posted by: freedomhawk
» Refreshing your memory again Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Yet Christians are the masochists? Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
» Why aren't you attacking tap17x? Posted by: freedomhawk
Evolution of consciousness
Posted by: redbrownandblueparty on Mar 23, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see this problem in the context of evolution. Fundamentalists are on a low level and they cannot yet see that religion is based on fairy tales and myths as noted above by Moonray. A fundamentalist is also addicted to base materialism like money. 7000 kids paid $60 apiece. Talk about exploitation. The irony is that liberals who are supposedly more advanced in consciousness still subscribe to the fairy tale Jesus to justify their beliefs in love, and can be just as addicted to money as fundamentalists.

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ALL RELIGIONS HAVE BECOME DESTRUCTIVE CULTS
Posted by: psychochurch on Mar 23, 2007 10:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The attractive thing about religion, outside of providing psychological comfort (that could be obtained elsewhere) and relieving fear/sadness/dichotomy of death (which I call the death hook) is it provides its adherents identity, purpose, meaning and direction...Erich Fromm pegged this perfectly, calling it group narcissism.......An philosophical attack on religion is to them, a personal attack on their identity....the more intense they make the belief, the more devious their enemies, the more exciting the "mission: is for the fools and sadists that are brainwashed into this cult......sad thing is, suburban life, our competative culture and polarization offer no other viable alternatives for positive group connections...those of us that reject organized religion are left to our own accord, limited to small networks of frinds, family, etc.........thus we are always outnumbered....as our social system continues to disintergrate, more will seek refuge in the church....which of course is why they support the republican platforms....as we die, they grow and get stronger....... a vicious cycle with no end.......only solution is to join cooperatives, communes, IC's or other alternative communities of like minded people and get the hell outta dodge........1929 will be repeated soon and shit is really gonna hit the fan this time.........good luck

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How Sick Thou Art!
Posted by: tiptopshape on Mar 23, 2007 11:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, God, if you exist, save me from your followers! Amen!

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» RE: How Sick Thou Art! Posted by: mstenger
I just gotta say
Posted by: vangogh69 on Mar 23, 2007 11:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many have already said my thoughts on this issue, but I'd just like to add...

Children (speaking as one who was raised in it) have no business being exposed to superstition and myths which are presented as facts! It does so much damage to the mind, later, and it takes years to get over the "indoctrination" (if in fact one choses to find one's own way). Just the idea that children are exposed to this shit is too much, especially in the 21st century!

As far as Christians go, not to peg all of them, but it's been my experience that they are some of the biggest hypocrites and judgemental people in existence. Thinking they've a "divine mission", they try to shove their myths down the throats of others like its truth. I appreciate a good allegory or story as much as the next man and The Bible, if taken as such, is quite an interesting book. It's only when they get to quoting scriptures about how I'm doing this or that wrong that I can't take it.

As far as Hell, well, it does exist, on this earth, now. Ask someone working 3 jobs and living check to check what Hell is like. Ask a kid in some backwards town who's gay what it's like. Ask a native on a "reservation" what it's like. Ask an Iraqi. Ask a Palestinian. There indeed is a hell and it's the result of some very specific policies.

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» RE: I just gotta say Posted by: mobile68
» Children Posted by: Mal'ak
» RE: Children Posted by: mobile68
Sex and Christianity: Re-thinking the Relationship
Posted by: thirdmg on Mar 23, 2007 11:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is the religious right so obsessed with sex and with repressing it? For those who have little background in the origins of Christianity, the following article by an Anglican bishop in Canada provides insights into how Christianity developed repressive attitudes towards sex from the earliest days. Taking a more modern and healthier viewpoint, he advocates re-thinking how Christianity should view sex and sexuality:

Sex and Christianity: Re-thinking the Relationship

"Friedrich Nietsche, the 19th century philosopher, observed that 'Christianity gave Eros, the god of love, poison to drink. He did not die of it, it is true, but he degenerated into vice.' In Jungian language today, perhaps we might say that we must learn to integrate the erotic, to allow it to take its playful and creative part in the whole matrix of human individuation and moral development. If you try to suppress it, it will become your shadow, a dark inner force that will rise up and take you over at the most vulnerable and dangerous moments, throwing your life, and sometimes even the lives of others, into chaos and anarchy."

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God is Love and Respect
Posted by: mistery509 on Mar 23, 2007 11:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is God?
Isn't God a spirit who lives within ourselves? The Bible and other good books are here to teach us how to be good and not be barbarians. We are taught the words of Jesus and other good men, to love everyone and respect others. The 10 commandments were written to help us understand what is good and to help us love and respect our fellowman and do unto others as we would like them to do unto us.

If you are a good honorable person and you respect the human race and the earth and all its creatures then you are with God. He does not ask for money, he does not care if you live in a shack by the sea or in a huge mansion in Hollywood. He is here for everyone.

We cannot disect God and say "He is my God". He is everyone's God. There are wars and people are dying because they do not understand that there is ONLY ONE GOD.
We worship God in different ways. We may worship Him in mosques or huge cathedrals but in the end if we go out into the quiet open spot in the middle of the forest and worship Him there, he will hear us and give our souls comfort.

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» RE: God is Love and Respect Posted by: mobile68
Christian????
Posted by: brainvib on Mar 23, 2007 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Way back in time when I was in college, I remember a prof.
lecturing on Zoarastrian Estrological Dualism(sp?) which believed that life was a battle ground between good, the great god," MAZDA", and evil," DEVIES". The brand of religion being preached by the BAC(BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN) group sure sound more like this Zoarastrian thing than anything else, specially when the use the "Old Testament" as the basis for BACism in place of the Christian "New Testament" which is supposed to be the foundation of Chsistianity.
Perhaps I am correct. Zoarastrianism predates Christianity by a long time and so does the old testament pre date the new by a long time.
At any rate the BAC movement represents the greatest threat to freedom, democracy and Peace(IRAQ) the US and
world is currently facing.

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» the evidence please? Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Christian???? Posted by: thirdmg
» The heresies Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: The heresies Posted by: thirdmg
Wish you could see
Posted by: markkc on Mar 23, 2007 5:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been reading these comments, with interest and concern. As a Christian, I have never tried to kill anyone, or stop anyone from living the life they want to live. It is their choice. People can decide for themselves if they believe in God and Jesus, and if they don't then they don't. I also thought that maybe this could be a good place to start a discussion as to the hate that is being given in this manner, until I saw the agreement with alternet:
AlterNet Comments Terms of Service

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Then it hit me, this isn't a place for open and honest conversation, that would be to American, Freedom of Speech, that kind of thing. No this is a forum to slam everything that, seemingly liberals, don't like, about themselves and others.

So, I realize that I would have a better chance of getting an honest reply, or point of view from the wall, then the posts here, and know that someone will report, a conservative, Christian Repulican has posted something, quickly, turn off his rights, and delete the post, for common sense might be read.

So, I am sorry for the pain that you have been put through by others, and that you seem to chose to toss out the baby with the bath water, and not care. God gives us the freedom of choice, and as you have made yours now, live your life in the way that makes you happy.

And if by chance, those of us with beliefs have found a way to make others lives a little better by caring and giving in God's love, then all the better, and if at the end of the world we were wrong, well, some tried to make it a better place, and if we are right, remember your choice, that you freely made.

And don't be surprised of God choses to make things very real for all of you to see, that the extremes are just that, extremes.

May you all find the peace you lack and are searching for.

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» RE: Wish you could see Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: Wish you could see Posted by: trudenza
» People see different things Posted by: grailsnail
wow
Posted by: beemadj on Mar 23, 2007 9:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And people say wiccans are the evil ones. Its hard not to laugh when pagan practices are termed evil or dangerous for kids. Looking at the shit the Christians are doing, it makes me glad i follow a different path.

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» Take me to your leader Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Take me to your leader Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Pride? Posted by: freedomhawk
how does religion=morality?
Posted by: mobile68 on Mar 23, 2007 10:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why a human being have to believe in a god to do the morally right thing? You do not need religion to have morality. In fact I think that religion like wall street can corrupt a society.
In my experiences, I had non religous people treat me better morally and I have been screwed by more xtians than anything. But I have met some x-tians that are not from the u.s. that were genuinely nice and were true to jesus christ teachings.
I'm just speaking from my experiences.

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phoenicks
Posted by: phoenicks on Mar 25, 2007 1:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CHILD SEXUAL SLAVERY IS A VASTLY WORSE SIN BEING IGNORED BY THE AMERICAN "CHRISTIAN RIGHT"

This is an email I recently sent to the Christian Coalition. Similar emails have been sent to other Christian groups. Note that this in no way disparages Fundamentalist Christianity as found in the Gospels, only the way it is being publicly practiced and perceived in America today.

BEGIN PASTE
Child Sex Slavery: THE SILENCE OF THE BODY OF CHRIST IS DEAFENING
To: coalition@cc.org 3/23/07 9:01 pm

Dear Christian Coalition,

I am right now watching a CNN "Anderson Cooper" special on child sexual slavery and trafficking, including here in the United States. The Holy Spirit in me is screaming WHERE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST???

This sin is so much worse than consensual adult fornication, adultery, or homosexuality, that there is no comparison. Scientific notation would be needed to express the sin severity ratio. A value that most people cannot comprehend. Just being silent about this unimaginable sin might even be worse than committing fornication, adultery, and homosexuality put together.

A Christian Coalition website search for "child sexual slavery"
yielded NO RESULTS.
THE SILENCE IS ABSOLUTELY DEAFENING!!!
THE SILENCE IS ABSOLUTELY DEAFENING!!!
THE SILENCE IS ABSOLUTELY DEAFENING!!!

Jesus told the Pharisees, "You strain at a gnat and gulp a camel." How big is the Christian Coalition's ministry regarding this unimaginably severe sin?? Are there any resources being devoted to this issue AT ALL? In the name of the LORD and the Holy Spirit, that moves me to speak out about this horror, I now call upon you to REPENT and start devoting resources to fighting this SIN!

I now see why the perception of Christianity by the unbelieving world is bad. It is because Christ is being dishonored by severe misallocation of the limited resources of the Body of Christ in America. If we don't as the Body of Christ REPENT soon, we will bring on and deserve the persecution that the book of Revelation predicts will come. Although it will come, we must not, by our action or inaction do anything to deserve it or bring it on.
END PASTE

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» RE: phoenicks Posted by: grailsnail
» RE: phoenicks Posted by: grailsnail
» RE: phoenicks Posted by: mincemeat
Ted Blowing Pipe
Posted by: mincemeat on Mar 31, 2007 8:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It just sickens me to no end when I hear about some preacher getting caught doing something that they clearly rail against. Some preachers and evangelicals live a secret life, all the while pocketing loads of cash from the suckers in the audience. I'm not saying that preachers shouldn't make mistakes, but don't stand there telling me how disgustingly vulgar homosexuals are, while your out with a secret gay lover; not only that, but doing drugs, committing adultery, telling lies, decieving others, and misusing church funds.

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» RE: Ted Blowing Pipe Posted by: Marion517