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Are Voting Machine Purists Standing in the Way of Reform?

By Steven Rosenfeld, AlterNet. Posted March 19, 2007.


While a proposed law in Congress does not try to ban touch-screen machines outright, it may just regulate them out of existence -- but that's not good enough for some election activists.

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Are Internet election integrity activists going to derail an attempt in Congress to regulate some of the biggest problems with touch-screen electronic voting machines? Will they scare off federal legislators who are going out on a limb to make it very hard for local, county and state election officials to keep using these problem-plagued machines?

There's the old political expression: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. But some election integrity activists are letting their vision of a perfectly justifiable solution -- purging all touch-screen voting machines -- get in the way of backing a very good election reform bill now moving through Congress that will bring significant oversight, transparency and accountability to electronic voting systems.

The bill, HR 811, "The Increased Accessibility and Voter Confidence Act," introduced by Rep. Rush Holt, D-N.J., regulates electronic voting machines for the first time. After many well-publicized problems in recent congressional and presidential elections, from 18,000 missing congressional votes in Sarasota, Fla., to thousands of disenfranchised voters in Cleveland, the bill fills a gaping hole in federal election law: the current lack of any regulation on the newest generation of voting technologies.

The bill would require that all software used in the counting and recording of votes to be readily available to the public, which is not now the case. It would require all voting machines to produce or use a durable voter-verified paper record of all votes cast, which is not now the case. It would require mandatory audits of voter-verified paper ballots to check the accuracy of electronic tallies and deter fraud, which also is not law now. It would require that the audit process be open to the public, which has not happened in recent presidential and congressional elections.

The bill also seeks to prevent electronic hacking by prohibiting wireless communication devices on any voting system, which is now not the case. It would bar poll workers from taking the machines home with them, and create strict security requirements for software handling and documenting of the chain of custody for ballots and other election materials. This too is not law now. It would prevent voting machine makers from privately testing their machines -- and claiming they are accurate -- and require all industry tests, results and communications between vendors and testing labs be available for public review. And it would require emergency paper ballots to be provided to voters in the case of machine malfunctions.

But HR 811 doesn't ban the use of direct recording electronic (DRE) voting machines -- and that is the problem for many election integrity activists.

Readers of liberal blogs and websites probably have seen postings, led by Brad Friedman of Brad Blog, that note that HR 811 will not eliminate the use of DRE machines. These are election systems where votes currently are recorded directly to computer memory with proprietary software and no independent means of auditing the election results. These systems also include precinct and countywide tabulators, which tally the vote totals and also contain proprietary software and preclude an independent audit. Apart from the better-known problems of these machines, such as votes not being recorded (Sarasota) and votes shifting to another candidate after a choice has been made (many jurisdictions), election integrity activists have been very frustrated by an inability to audit machines in counties where preelection polling and post-election hand-counts of paper ballots have found results that have varied by 10 percent or more from the "official" result tallied by these voting systems. That variance, seen in the 2004 presidential race in Ohio and in some recent congressional races, has fueled suspicions of electronic vote count fraud.

Friedman, a muckraking journalist, says liberal public policy groups -- Common Cause, People for the American Way, Move On, Lawyers Committee on Civil Rights, VoteTrustUSA, the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition -- are selling out by supporting a bill that will aggressively regulate these machines, but not get rid of them.


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See more stories tagged with: electronic voting machine, hr811, rush holt

Steven Rosenfeld is co-author, with Robert Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman, of "What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election," published by the New Press in 2006.

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This is the usual flimsy argument by the ignorant
Posted by: halg on Mar 19, 2007 4:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not the author's fault, perhaps, that he does not understand software and computer technology. His reactiion is typical of the mainstream populace who seem to have resigned themselves to complete computer automation of everything in life. Along with that comes utter and unquestioning "acceptance" of a technology that is not easily understood by those raised on calculators, and in some cases, slide rules.

The trouble is that no matter what kind of software one puts in a voting machine, there is no way to ensure there won't be tampering. Open source, closed source, it makes no difference. Software can be twiddled with no matter how many safeguards one puts on it. The reason is that bits are too small for the human eye to audit. Relying on IT people to ensure that there has been no tampering is hardly an assurance. Having worked with IT for 15-20 years, I am not blind to the ways individuals -- even so-called experienced professionals -- and especially managers can find ways to fumble the ball.

Look, ballot box stuffing and other methods of defeating an honest vote have been around since time immemorial. Electronic, automated versions simply speed up and amplify the damage done by evil and incompetence alike.

Unless the author has figured out a way to "see" bits turning on and off millions of times per second, we would be better off to return to good old paper ballots.

As for speed, we can look to the Italian system for an example of very fast and efficient hand counts. That system could easily be extended for the U.S.

Again, I don't mean to sound condescending or distrustful of people in general. I really don't expect most people to truly understand the intricacies of what is involved. But I'll be back to catch the hell that will surely be released on this posting.

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DRE's are Junk
Posted by: gtash on Mar 19, 2007 5:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DRE's produce a vapor trail, not a paper trail.

And state or Federal laws which trigger hand counting only after sampling of vapor-ballots are as vulnerable.

The money spent on 183,000 precincts using DRE's under HAVA was, like so many programs of the Bush Administration, a wasted "splurge" of spending designed to help Republican manufacturers of shoddy machinery and lock them into needlessly expensive maintenance contracts.

A "splurge" (and its cousin "the surge") have done nothing to further democracy here or elsewhere. They have done a great deal to line pockets.

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Why preserve this bonanza for crooks?
Posted by: Julian on Mar 19, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is so reactionary about striking the electronic voting weapon totally out of the hands of the ballot riggers who have twice used it to install a bunch of dangerous crooks in the US White House? Why is it worth preserving it through tinkering when the sky didn't come crashing down during more than two centuries of representative government in the USA without a single electronic vote-rigging machine in the entire country?

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Perfect? No. Going in the right direction? Yes.
Posted by: CriminallySane on Mar 19, 2007 7:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This law will not "fix" things, in that nothing can. I remember a precinct in Chicago where "election judges" got caught running the same (paper) ballot through a counting machine hundreds of times.

Despite the fact that nothing can make any process devised or run by human beings "perfect", this bill would go a very long way towards improving things. And improvement is always desirable. Not getting all the way to where you want to be does not mean you're not closer. And every step taken from that point of improvement brings you closer still.

Pass it, then look for what needs to be addressed as consequences, and do so with dispatch. Repeat as necessary.

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If the voting system isn't perfect .....our democracy won't be either.
Posted by: Hedda on Mar 19, 2007 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way I would even consider keeping touch screens is if when I went to the polls and punched in my vote and received a receipt. Not a single receipt but a white/yellow copy tye like I get anytime I use my credit card anywhere(so don't give me the crap about this being imposible) After my vote was cast electronically after I verified it I would also get 2 paper reciepts that would be a hard copy and clearly show who I voted for (not in some code) then I would take one copy and put it in a locked box at the polling place and the other one I would keep. when it came time to count the votes the people would have this electronic count (the ones that want it fast. Then at the close of the election they would immediately start hand counting the receipts (open for public observation) the votes would have to match the electronic record as well as the amount of people that voted. and if things didn't match up we all have our receipts to look at .....
This would though only cause a problem in the hand count with so many issues and such on the same ballot....maybe then the paper receipts should be broken down, so you receive a copy for each (that would make hand count easier)

or just keep the dre's for disabled and everyone else can do paper ballots w/ a hand count.....

people are forgetting that the machines that count paper ballots are machines that can be rigged too. Hand count paper ballots is the way to go ......but I understand what the author is trying to say in railroading any progress by expecting perfection.

But I am aiming for perfection because something very valuable to me is at stake.....Our Democracy!!!!

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HAVA written by and for industry
Posted by: ScottP on Mar 19, 2007 8:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why should we attempt to salvage any part of HAVA, which was written to enrich and empower the already wealthy and powerful? And we're to think that stolen elections were an "unintended consequence" of a corporate president who stated that he intended to deliver Ohio's votes to his man, and who was also involved in writing HAVA? Perhaps the author should have spent the time to actually read the 130 or so pages of HAVA before defending it.

Perhaps we deserve a more secure and fair election system than Canada, Mexico, or Bolivia. Perhaps not.

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Voting machine "purists"
Posted by: willymack on Mar 19, 2007 9:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ha! What a laugh. They're nothing more or less than neocon stooges. Nothing they say or do should have the least semblence of trust or credibility attached to it.

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Only two conclusions are possible
Posted by: diogenes on Mar 19, 2007 10:16 AM   
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Mr. Rosenfeld, either you're being paid by the voting machine industry to write this blatent propaganda, or you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Either one, it doesn't matter- please stop writing this garbage until you can demonstrate that you're familiar with the writings of Chuck Herrin, Nancy Tobi, Paul Lehto and especially Andi Novick's opinions on this subject. Your ignorance is inexcusable, if that is what it is. You do a real disservice to the voters who are trying to find their way through this thicket of misinformation.

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Here's an idea...
Posted by: SteveB on Mar 19, 2007 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How 'bout if those voting rights "purists" continue to denounce the features of this legislation that they find deficient, others who think this bill is a good first step can say that, and we'll see what happens?

Sounds crazy, I know, but it might just work.

As with the current debate over the Democrat's $120 billion war-funding bill, the "politics is the art of the possible" crowd seems to think that there's something wrong with the citizens of a democracy speaking openly and honestly about the problems with a very problematic piece of legislation.

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» RE: Here's an idea... Posted by: plehto
bluepilgrim
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Mar 19, 2007 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've worked as a computer programmer and understand how easy it is to not just hack a machine, but to code bugs. The bottom line is that we need paper ballots -- actual ballots, not receipts or an audit trail. That's not perfect either of course, but it's qualitatively different than ballots composed of mere electrons.

Can a computer be used to produce paper ballots? Of course! Computers are used to compose all sorts of paper documents, which are then printed out. Those ballots can even be counted with electronic readers for a quick count and then hand counted later to show a proper statistical correlation -- or can be counted by hand if the counting equipment is on the fritz.

But the paper is still the same as when printed and doesn't go away or is altered unless someone physically steals them or manipulates them like the old-style paper ballots. For that we need normal security methods.

We used to use punch cards which could be read in a reader, or by eyes. They worked well, and were secure. I'm not pushing for any particular brand or company, but a few years I looked at the Populex system (they are on the web), which produced paper cards which are *actual* ballots, both bar-card readable and can be printed in different languages. That has the advantages of electronic machines and also the security of real paper ballots. Even the barcode is readable by a human who knows how the code works.

This is not all that complicated. Have you never used a computer to print out a greeting card to send to Aunt Suzy?

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What's so difficult about paper and ink?
Posted by: organik on Mar 19, 2007 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only real option is HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS!

Also, any of you informed AlterNet posters care to write for my blog? It's Election Fraud Blog

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The old fashion way worked!
Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 19, 2007 11:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The good old fashion paper ballot is all we need.
Nothing more and nothing less.
Newer is not better.
Hell look at the viruses our computer can get from
hackers! That along should deter the use of Electronic
voting machines. And what about Idenity theft!
Electronic voting should be outlawed and only the
old fashion paper ballot allowed.
Hell I'm in favor of a show of hands!

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Why are we still afraid of being linked to our vote?
Posted by: YinRising on Mar 19, 2007 11:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just an open question to get the opinion of fellow voters.

I understand how in the past retribution and intimidation were the consequences of a non-anonymous vote, but do we still have this fear.

It would be quite understandable in this age of Total Information Awarness and secret government databases, to be afraid to be linked to your vote, but if that is the case...

isn't that the most telling thing about the state of our Democracy or lack thereof.

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Everyone's a technophobe
Posted by: DaBear on Mar 19, 2007 12:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until they watch an old man with Parkinson's unable to mark an optiscan ballot (before that he couldn't work the punch card machine or the lever machine before that) because his hand shakes. For the anti DRE ilk, that's okay that old man doesn't much matter to them... until maybe it's their shaking hand or weakened musculature that prevents them from using anything but a touchscreen DRE.

Maybe you-ins ought to actually go work at a polling place for a change instead of armchair qb-ing at everyone else's expense. The comments thus far prove the author's point quite well.

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» RE: veryone's a technophobe Posted by: Beastly
Profoundly unclear
Posted by: Beastly on Mar 19, 2007 12:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is unclear and likely to confuse readers as much as inform them.

The author writes: "Moreover, advocacy groups representing the disabled also have clout in Congress, and they like the touch-screen machines for their constituents. This is the case, even though some voting machine manufacturers have contributed sizeable sums to these advocates." What is this supposed to mean? The wording here suggests that sizeable contributions from voting machine makers would somehow deter these advocates from supporting them. It just doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, in this same paragraph, the author seems to confuse the term "paper ballot" with a paper trail, akin to a voter's receipt. This is a huge distinction, the crux of the dichotomy between the staunch anti-DRE position held by Brad Friedman and the position of "Verified Paper Trail" advocates, and it reveals Mr. Rosenfeld to be not as knowledgeable, or at least not as careful, as he should be if he's going to offer his opinion. The difference between paper ballots and a paper trail is vital to this debate.

The reality is this: there is nothing about a DRE that makes voting any easier for the disabled or foreign language speakers than a Ballot Marking Device, which is a touch-screen system that prints a ballot. A "paper trail" is only a printout of whatever the machine says your vote was, and most will not notice abberations on the paper that they didn't notice on the screen in the first place. Studies show that people don't even check the paper trail. A paper trail does nothing to enable recounts, because there's nothing to check it against. Only a paper ballot system can be reliably audited or recounted. Hand-counting, on the other hand, is unnecessary. Optical scanning devices would work--as long as an aggressive auditing regime is practiced.

In addition, speaking of the myriad problems caused by the Bob Ney-authored HAVA bill as "unintended consequences" is astoundingly naive for someone who claims expertise on the subject.

Mr. Rosenfeld has a point about the politics of the possible and not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If Holt's bill is the best we can get, then it may be better than nothing. But he weakens his own point when he displays a less-than-comprehensive understanding of the issues at hand. If you're going to get into this debate, whatever your opinion, at least use the proper terminology. Otherwise, you're only going to confuse the public further.

For more illumination on these issues I suggest an excellent recent interview with Brad Friedman.

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I'm a Democracy Purist, not a Voting Machine Purist
Posted by: plehto on Mar 19, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I'm any kind of purist at all, i'm a law-purist as a lawyer and a democracy-purist as a citizen. The title here is a nice cheap shot to make some look unreasonably in love with the equivalent of a certain model of car.

Both electronic voting formats of optical scanning as well as touch screen DRE methods, Feature centrally SECRET VOTE COUNTING on their proprietary "trade secret" software, such that no human being or combination of human beings has any idea, not even elections officials, what the true count is.

As lead attorney in CAs 50th Congressional District in an election contest involving the Busby/Bilbray race, my "witness" from personal experience in this an other cases is that in a disputed election or corrupt jurisdiction (i.e. when it REALLY COUNTS) you are NOT going to get your hands on the ballots for recounts or audits, and if the govt is going to (laughably) audit itself, we've already seen paper trails and audit regimes screwed up apparently on purpose in numberous ways in CA to avoid accountability.

You see, as the convictions for rigging the presidential recount in 2004 in Ohio now prove, there is a huge motive to protect the first count and avoid embarrassment and the extra work of full hand recounts, so the Democrats in Cuyahoga would rather spend 2 days rigging that recount, than do it the right way. INterestingly, the main reason for media noncoverage of Ohio were these "bipartisan" boards on top of Ohio counties tied at 2-2 with Dems and Reps, but not only did Blackwell have the tie vote, but more importantly they had already signed their name to the first count so their incentive is strong to be proven right, adn the conflict is such that their quote as an official that all is AOK is close to worthless.

The only parties that can supervise elections without huge conflicts are the people themselves. It just so happens that real democracy means legitimate power comes only from the people so they truly are the supervisors in elections, and then their reps duly elected get to make laws we all obey. But on elections, the reps are on bended knee, asking for authority, our systems should reflect that basic fact, leaving the public in charge of as much oversight and supervision as it cares to.

I guess one risks being a democracy-purist when you decide that secret vote counting on the all-important first counts is NOT acceptable nor is it democratic. That all audits and recounts are at best dicey no matter how perfectly the law is written, in practice the government auditing itself is like Enron auditing itself, it's just no reliable to follow all audit rules strictly.

Steve Rosenfeld, there's only one kind of believer in democracy and that's the purist. Pure representative democracy in our republic. THESE ARE RIGHTS, and if any rights are INALIENABLE the right that protects all other rights (voting) and its greater right (the culmulative counting of all 100 million or more votes) must be inalienable rights, if there are any at all.

As inalienable rights, we don't give up on and compromise to make a corproate vendor happy, or to make our legislative agenda more likely to put one quickly in the W column. The work of democracy as JFK said is endless. FOr those activists, suffragettes, and soldiers who died for democracy or for freedom, they had to believe that democracy and freedom were more important than security and even life itself, give the risks they took and sacrifies made. Who are we to sacrifice a publicly observable legitimate election with robust checks and balances to the total hackability of electronics. and riggability from inside is even worse.

Besides, every progressive movement that changed this country anchored themselves in a "purist" way to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution. THat's good enough for me.

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voting machine purists
Posted by: pfm on Mar 19, 2007 5:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the only thing standing in the way of election reform where every vote is counted as intended by the voter is $$$$$ - corporate greed and its control over our Congress and governmental bureaucracy. And "we" - that's you and me - just don't give a good god damn.

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Uh, isn't ridding corporations from the booths enough?
Posted by: animalleaderisgreat on Mar 19, 2007 5:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Forget about all the technological problems and bald-faced fraud that will take place no matter how secure the machines, no matter how air-tight the legislation.

Why are people so willing to have a corporation in with them while they conduct a fundamental civic and public right? Why don't we sell off all municipal water works to PepsiCo and Evian while we're at it, yeah.

This goes for any kind of voting machine. In Germany they hand count paper ballots, pure and simple. Various workers are given a week off, with pay, to do this. In effect they become civil servants for a week. Polling after elections is extremely accurate, so the public isn't really waiting for some kind of massive Pope-like decree decision or anything.

This is hardly a striking difference from our current system of jury duty. But the business of America is business, as Vidal says, so carry on, whatever.

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even a simple ban on DRE's isn't perfect
Posted by: rjf7r on Mar 19, 2007 6:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author seems to imply that a total ban on DREs would be some sort of (unattainable) perfection. A ban on DREs would be appropriate, but is in no way a perfect solution to machine-based tampering. Even a DRE ban is a compromise, probably a dangerous one, especially if audits can be avoided or circumvented. I almost wondered if this article were in some way a backhanded endorsement of a simple DRE ban, which it portrays as some sort of perfection.

The problem with comparing ATMs and voting machines is this: your bank account only depends upon your checking your own receipt. An election with voter-verified paper depends upon every voter checking their receipts. It's quite a difference.

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It is you who are demonizing our position.
Posted by: Marjorie G on Mar 19, 2007 7:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guess Bush is not the only one throwing up straw men on an argument. We want to amend what is seriously wrong with the bill.

Not only is e-voting directly on the computer a failed experiment, but so are the paper trails that is now the hallmark of the Holt Bill. In fact, confusing the term paper ballot with paper trail, causing a ripple of unaudited elections worse than ever, with terminology allowing the states to recount neither.

The trail is not software independent, it prints blank, it jams, and when not available for a recount, or a jam causes a stop in the voting, then what?

The Bill even mandates further spending of money on printers, or different printers for archival paper, even designing new technology for text converters, making the DREs more permanent.

The vendors will promise a solution, and it will get purchased without proper testing, beta-tested on the day of the presidential election.

We are asking to close the loopholes, fix the language at a minimum, but stop throwing good money after bad. DREs cannot be fixed, and the vendors cannot be trusted with new invention.

Most people defending the revised bill haven't read it. Like People for the American Way and Common Cause before they e-blasted. Whose allegiance to DRE is suspect anyway, because of the accessibility groups it advocates for, not caring what happens after the vote.

Ignoring the recent NM study showing targeted disenfranchisement electronically. A decrease was shown on the Native American undervote by 85%, and the Hispanic by 69% when using the optical scanner, which reads the anonymous, filled in marked ovals.

I could go on, but please go to votersunite.org and get documents. The "something is better than nothing" crowd is undermining our efforts, just as proof came home to roost on this boondoggle. No time to cave.

Please get involved before it is too late, as the legislation is fast-tracked, to be voted on this month. Call your representative to ban e-voting.

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Support Our Troops, Not The Voting Machine Vendors
Posted by: Potsey on Mar 19, 2007 8:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree Hand Counted Paper Ballots is the system that gives our elections the transparency and public oversight they are lacking today. Texas now has a bill, HB 3894 for HCPB. When I talk to people about it, I'm overwhelmed with just how spoiled we are in this country. So many people worry we won't have enough people to count the ballots. I have a perfect solution to this and our lack of services for our veterans. It should be required of all citizens to count ballots once in their lives. They could be randomly chosen like for jury duty, but they wouldn't be paid. Instead, all the billions that go to the corrupt voting machine vendors or salaries, would be spent on veterans to help them rebuild their lives. It seems so little to repay people who have put their lives the and at times given up parts of their body.

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For paper ballots counted by hand, as in Britain and elsewhere
Posted by: yelsoma on Mar 19, 2007 10:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, what excellent commentaries you attract! Especially valuable to refer to the "money spent on 183,000 precincts using DRE's under HAVA was, like so many programs of the Bush Administration, a wasted "splurge" of spending designed to help Republican manufacturers of shoddy machinery and lock them into needlessly expensive maintenance contracts."
Far better, as in countries around the world, to spend the money in employing and empowering citizens to count the votes by hand. I have observed free and fair elections, where the process is observed by candidates from all interested parties, and is completely transparent and immediately verifiable.

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Ho-o-o-o-ol' on there, Baba Louie!
Posted by: Mark-MyWords on Mar 19, 2007 10:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, yes, I'd be happy if we eliminated all DREs, and all ballots were counted by hand (cf. Canada, today).

However, such legislation, particularly as a proposed change to Holt's HR-811, is not politically viable today.

I have 25 years of computer science experience in industry. Here's some light on the heat of these comments.

HR-811 is an extremely effective ballot auditing bill, not a general purpose voting reform bill. Folks with the many concerns other than auditability in these comments should focus their attention on Conyers, Clinton, Obama et. al., who are promoting much broader based voting reform bills.

As an auditing bill, HR-811 would successfuly ensure that software-based DRE voting inaccuracies would be detected, particularly where computer flaws or nefarious programming are involved, and voter intent retrieved on the required paper ballots.

Rush and his team have had the wisdom to neither recommend nor ban any particular voting technology. By prefering to make sure that a durable human-readable physical record is made of each and every vote, regardless of whatever emerging technologies may come and go, the bill will stand the test of time, and remain a solid curb on electronic vote tabulation disenfranchisement, whether it be through software flaws, mechanical breakdown or fraudulent software.

Let's think about some of what has been said in the comments.

...usual flimsy argument... by ignorant This poster unfortunately raises questions about his or her own credibility, aiming at Rosenfeld ad hominem right in the subject. Let's read on...[author]...resigned to complete computer automation I don't see anywhere where the author throws his hands up and says that DREs are a given. In fact, he predicts that the economics of HR-811 will cause many jurisdictions to reject them. ...relying on IT people to ensure there has been no tampering HR-811's forced paper ballots and auditing are a precise remedy to what would otherwise have been a misguided reliance on IT oversight.

laws which trigger hand counting only after sampling of vapor-ballots are as vulnerable I heartily agree with this commenter's suggestion that HAVA was a boondoggle, but the statement that "samples of vapor-ballots are as vulnerable" as plain DREs (with no VVPAT) runs up against the field of statistical quality control.

Why preserve this bonanza for crooks? Once again, I heartily agree with the underlying sentiment. If anyone from the "purist" camp can credibly exhibit that public opinion, corporate-influenced politicians and a split disabled community are ready for a DRE ban, I recommend approaching Holt about a second bill, or other reform-minded politicians.

The only way I would even consider keeping touch screen... [if I] received a receipt There is a proven concern that paper receipts exhibiting a readable ballot would be abused by both those in positions of power (e.g. employers) and those seeking power (vote purchasers). Besides, if you try to envision a reliable process of turning to voter-carried receipts to resolve a disputed tally, it's rather impractical.

Why should we attempt to salvage any part of HAVA Agreed in principle, but at this time, it's my understanding that going after HAVA is simply not a political possibility. I will say in support of repealing HAVA that there are paper ballot solutions for disabled voters.

Only two conclusions are possible... I've looked at the writings of Herrin and Tobi/Lehto (re: HR-550). Some points are true but not significantly so (e.g. paper+hand counts are better than DRE+HR-811), others are laudable but not relevant politically. I've used up all my commenting space at this point though.

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You haven't read the audting loopholes.
Posted by: Marjorie G on Mar 20, 2007 6:21 AM   
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By corrupting the language of paper ballot to mean the same as the paper trail, which isn't software independent or cast by the voter (really the machine), that leaves states able to not to have to audit the paper ballot, because they never audit the trail. State laws are confusing and inadequate, made moreso by this Bill.

Each time we tried to strengthen the bill to require trail audits, we were shut down. A 3% is also expensive, if it were done; it should be tiered and different for close election, etc., even though elections can be manipulated to be just as close as necessary.

In NY, we have a 3% spot check, but then a so-what. No need to match, and doesn't trigger a recount.

Read Kathy Dopp's work on audits.

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A Poor Compromise
Posted by: Polenium on Mar 20, 2007 12:42 PM   
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Just because Americans were bamboozled by voting machine manufacturers and their congressional representatives doesn't mean that they should be made to compromise on voting security.
No voting machines are secure. Period. There is no benefit to pretending they are. What has happened is criminal. It needs to be shut down, not regualted.
Amending Holt's legislation so it really protects voters is the real solution.
We know from past experience that any loop hole can and will be exploited.
This legislation points out the need for a non-partisan independent public bureacracy to run our elections that is transparent and accoutable to voters not to congressman with their hands out. That's the way the Europeans do it. It works for them and it will work for us.

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RE: Ho-o-o-o-ol' on there, Baba Louie!
Posted by: Mark-MyWords on Mar 20, 2007 6:32 PM   
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Thanks, diogenes, for the post. I particularly applaud your suggestion to take local action. A great deal can be done at that level.

It happens that I didn't miss Herrin's note regarding optical scanners, and I've long been in agreement with your concern. Scanners are programmed devices just like voting machines, and could be subject to hidden programmatic vote shifting. It's gratifying to know that HR-811, like the two earlier Holt bills that preceded it, requires all auditing and recounts to be conducted by hand. As for ballots needing to be secret, I empathize with your frustration, but I've learned that it's way more than sheepishness that voting booth privacy protects. It's also employer or family member intimidation, paid-for votes, and many other forms of fraud and abuse (i.e. abuse of both votes and voters!). The ballot must be secret, or Democracy is not served.

I'm frankly stumped by all this seeming turmoil over ballot vs. audit trail, and supposedly gaping holes, etc. Think about recent elections you consider to have been most evidently compromised because of the use of electronic devices. Now think of what we would have to refer back to in those elections under HR-811. There would be a paper ballot for each and every vote which the voter, whether they reviewed it carefully (most) or not (a few), would have had to indicate was "Correct" in order to complete the casting of their ballot.

With your references to party, you remind me of a concept that I often think about reading comment streams such as this.

Start with the fact that however much more clean and elegant it would be to have all paper ballots and hand counts, the passage of Holt's bill would take the auditability of DREs from near zero to being highly auditable with a great degree of accuracy based on the 80+ year old science of statistical quality control, and leaving a human readable record of each vote for all to see.

If you believe that anti-democratic forces primarily from one party are abusing computerized voting equipment, and that those same forces are at work to suppress voting reform (e.g. abolishing DREs), why not throw your weight behind HR-811 now. With its vastly improved vote reporting accuracy, the anti-reform party members you refer to would begin losing a significant number of elections. You'd then have a political climate in Washington in which a hue and cry to eliminate DREs (well, maybe keeping one sip/puff device around per precinct for the severely disabled) would be met with political success.

The real tragedy would be if HR-811 to be derailed by those riveted by the existence of DREs, and then no DRE ban making it all the way into signed law.

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The real tragedy is HR 811 becoming signed law
Posted by: diogenes on Mar 21, 2007 6:34 AM   
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You can count on Bush signing this odoriferous piece of crap because he knows that it's a continuation of what got him elected. You can count on the support of all Republican politicians for the same reason, because it's what got them elected. If you see this lock-step unanimity occuring, will you then admit that you were wrong? Please stop spreading this poison before that comes to pass.

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It's all about voter participation
Posted by: diogenes on Mar 22, 2007 7:58 AM   
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If you're given a choice of two options, the first one being you are selected to take part in the tabulation and observing the counting of the votes, and the second being allowed to watch an optical scanner (proven to be hackable) through a window counting the votes, which do you choose?
Check this out:
Hack the Vote, then scroll down to "An Easy Solution: The Vote Integrity Method:
or, go here:
We're counting the votes, and you can too!, but this is only to show you what is possible and how much we have been swindled by the scam known as Helping Americans Vote Act , but a decision is needed soon.

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Why support DRE ban
Posted by: diafos on Apr 4, 2007 10:24 AM   
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I totally respect Steve Rosenfeld's persistent pursuit of the truth about stollen elections, and have followed the subject myself daily since '04. As a previously rabid supporter of Holt's HR 550, I have come to the conclusion that DRE's should be banned outright rather than have counties spend millions more on VVAP's only to discover they need to be thrown out later. (As the report "E-Voting Failures in the 2006 Mid-Term Elections" prepared by numerous voting integrity orgs demonstrated). In Whatcom County we use paper ballots with scanners, subject to routine hand-counted audits with the capacity to recount 100% if needed. In the last 2 weeks, Avi Rubin, Harri Hursti, and ACLU-backed Disability Law Center representing 20 disabled groups have come out against DRE's. The evidence is mounting for an amendment to Holt... thanks for the opportunity to post.
Dianne Foster, RN, ARNP
Bellingham, Wa.

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