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Why Sexist Language Matters

Gendered words and phrases like "you guys" may seem small compared to issues like violence against women, but changing our language is an easy way to begin overcoming gender inequality.
March 12, 2007  |  
 
 
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Originally printed in the Center Line, a newsletter of the Orange County Rape Crisis Center.

For years I've been teaching a sociology course at the University of North Carolina on gender inequality. I cover such topics as the wage gap, the "second shift" (of housework and childcare) that heterosexual women often do in the home, the "third shift" (women's responsibility for intimate relationships with men), compulsory heterosexuality, the equation of women's worth with physical attractiveness, the sexualizing of women in the media, lack of reproductive rights for women (especially poor women), sexual harassment and men's violence against women.

My course makes links among items on that list. For example, if women are expected to take care of housework and children, then they cannot compete as equals with men in the workplace; if men see women largely as sex objects and servers, then it is hard for men to see women as serious workers outside the home; if women are taught that it is their job to take care of relationships with men, they may be blamed for breakups; if women are economically dependent on men, they may stay with abusive male partners; if women prefer intimacy with women, men may harass or violate them. What I've left off the list is the issue that both women and men in my classes have the most trouble understanding -- or, as I see it, share a strong unwillingness to understand -- sexist language.

I'm not referring to such words as "bitch," "whore" and "slut." What I focus on instead are words that students consider just fine: male (so-called) generics. Some of these words refer to persons occupying a position: postman, chairman, freshman, congressman, fireman. Other words refer to the entire universe of human beings: "mankind" or "he." Then we've got manpower, manmade lakes and "Oh, man, where did I leave my keys?" There's "manning" the tables in a country where children learn that "all men are created equal." The most insidious, from my observations, is the popular expression "you guys." Please don't tell me it's a regional term. I've heard it in the Triangle, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Montreal. I've seen it in print in national magazines, newsletters and books. And even if it were regional, that doesn't make it right. I'll bet we can all think of a lot of practices in our home regions that we'd like to get rid of.

I sound defensive. I know. But that's because I've so often heard (and not only from students) ... What's the big deal? Why does all this "man-ning" and "guys-ing" deserve a place in my list of items of gender inequality and justify taking up inches of space in the newsletter of a rape crisis center?

Because male-based generics are another indicator -- and more importantly, a reinforcer -- of a system in which "man" in the abstract and men in the flesh are privileged over women. Some say that language merely reflects reality and so we should ignore our words and work on changing the unequal gender arrangements that are reflected in our language. Well, yes, in part.

It's no accident that "man" is the anchor in our language and "woman" is not. And of course we should make social change all over the place. But the words we use can also reinforce current realities when they are sexist (or racist or heterosexist). Words are tools of thought. We can use words to maintain the status quo or to think in new ways -- which in turn creates the possibility of a new reality. It makes a difference if I think of myself as a "girl" or a "woman"; it makes a difference if we talk about "Negroes" or "African-Americans." Do we want a truly inclusive language or one that just pretends?

Before I discuss how benign-sounding words like "freshman" and "you guys" reinforce the gender inequalities on my list, above, let me tell you about an article that made a difference in my own understanding of sexist language.

In 1986 Douglas Hofstadter, a philosopher, wrote a parody of sexist language by making an analogy with race. His article ("A Person Paper on Purity in Language") creates an imaginary world in which generics are based on race rather than gender. In that world, people would use "freshwhite," "chairwhite" and yes, "you whiteys." People of color would hear "all whites are created equal" -- and be expected to feel included. Substituting "white" for "man" makes it easy to see why using "man" for all human beings is wrong. Yet, women are expected to feel flattered by "freshman," "chairman" and "you guys."

And can you think of one, just one, example of a female-based generic? Try using "freshwoman" with a group of male students or calling your male boss "chairwoman." Then again, don't. There could be serious consequences for referring to a man as a "woman" -- a term that still means "lesser" in our society. If not, why do men get so upset at the idea of being called women?

And why do so many women cling to "freshman," "chairman" and "you guys?" I think I know why, though it doesn't make me feel any better. "Man" is a high-status term, and women want to be included in the "better" group. But while being labeled "one of the guys" might make us feel included, it's only a guise of inclusion, not the reality. If we were really included, we wouldn't have to disappear into the word "guys."

I'm not saying that people who use "you guys" have bad intentions, but think of the consequences. All those "man" words -- said many times a day by millions of people every day -- cumulatively reinforce the message that men are the standard and that women should be subsumed by the male category. We know from history that making a group invisible makes it easier for the powerful to do what they want with members of that group. And we know, from too many past and current studies, that far too many men are doing "what they want" with women. Most of us can see a link between calling women "sluts" and "whores" and men's sexual violence against women. We need to recognize that making women linguistically a subset of man/men through terms like "mankind" and "guys" also makes women into objects. If we, as women, aren't worthy of such true generics as "first-year," "chair" or "you all," then how can we expect to be paid a "man's wage," be respected as people rather than objects (sexual or otherwise) on the job and at home, be treated as equals rather than servers or caretakers of others, be considered responsible enough to make our own decisions about reproduction, define who and what we want as sexual beings? If we aren't even deserving of our place in humanity in language, why should we expect to be treated as decent human beings otherwise?

Now and then someone tells me that I should work on more important issues -- like men's violence against women -- rather than on "trivial" issues like language. Well, I work on lots of issues. But that's not the point. What I want to say (and do say, if I think they'll give me the time to explain) is that working against sexist language is working against men's violence against women. It's one step.

If we cringe at "freshwhite" and "you whiteys" and would protest such terms with loud voices, then why don't we work as hard at changing "freshman" and "you guys?" Don't women deserve it? If women primarily exist in language as "girls" (children), "sluts" and "guys," it does not surprise me that we still have a long list of gendered inequalities to fix. We've got to work on every item on the list. Language is one we can work on right now, if we're willing. It's easier to start saying "you all" instead of "you guys" than to change the wage gap tomorrow. Nonsexist English is a resource we have at the tip of our tongues. Let's start tasting this freedom now.

I hope that you'll check the website about sexist language: www.youall2.freeservers.com. You'll find there an educational tool -- a business-sized card about the problems with "you guys" -- that you can download on a computer and leave at restaurants and other public places where the term is used. You can also leave it with friends and begin a conversation about all the reasons why sexist language matters.
Sherryl Kleinman teaches in the Department of Sociology at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
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Everything matters . . .
Posted by: keres on Mar 12, 2007 1:37 AM   
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especially language.

There are things for which there are no ready words, things which can only be talked around or hinted at, or for which the "barrowed" words feel awkward or carry no legitimacy. As a woman with a female partner, I have no word for my "significant other": lover, partner, spouse - none of them carry the weight or legitimacy of "wife". This is not a simple omission, nor is it without real consequences.

In Scaldic the the word "man" meant woman. Man's close linguistic kin are the feminine manna, moon, mama, and the old english minnie, whose troubadors, the Minnie Singers, sang about their love for the feminine, both earthly and divine. The corresponding Scaldic word for man was were, which survives in werewolf (manwolf). I can only speculate that the word man was too powerfull to be subjugated along with actual females. Such is the power of words. What cannot be destroyed, can however, be appropriated, twisted, and forced to lie about its very meaning.

Goddess was overthrown by God, woman's name became man's, all that was female and exalted was stolen by men, and reshaped in their own image.

In the begining was the Word.

Everything matters, especially language.

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» RE: Everything matters . . . Posted by: CriminallySane
» aww man Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: aww man Posted by: radact
» RE: aww man Posted by: psychochurch

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It's a matter of triage
Posted by: ISlamIslam on Mar 12, 2007 3:39 AM   
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When Muslim women, including those in the U.S., are no longer compelled, either by family members or by tacit pressure within their communities, to wear bags over their heads in public and be treated like domestic livestock, when women throughout the world are no longer physically mutilated or routinely subjected to rape -- then I'll turn my attention to such trivia as whether someone innocuously uses a phrase that is a carryover from an earlier era.

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» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Shackled aplenty in the USA Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: Lauren

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Hell Yeah Y'all
Posted by: hippychik on Mar 12, 2007 4:14 AM   
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I'm glad that the South shows more progressiveness in this area. At least we got that going for us.

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» Bravo! Posted by: Boomerang

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Not bad for a PC article. Kind of interesting.
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 12, 2007 4:37 AM   
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I think I resist PC for free speech reasons. I feel like Big Brother is always on us about something. Making us change more words is one more thing. It kind of sanitizes our culture.

If they make us change words, they should test them to make sure they flow with the language, and don't sound clumsy. "People of Color", and "Mentally Challenged" sound awkward, patronizing, politically-motivated, and holier-than-thou.

For example, I don't mind using black instead of negro. A nice, simple, one syllable word.

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well, they are not sticks and stones...
Posted by: ktm on Mar 12, 2007 5:31 AM   
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but i am kind of split with my opinion on this... on one side of the table i agree that words reinforce a stereotype and an leave an impression of male dominace in our society but on the other, i think some are so ingrained that they have lost thier meaning.

all of our words lose meaning as they are used over and over again. and i think to try to fight against some of them is really useless.. i admit that i have nothing other than a surface level knowledge of word orgins, but i would hazard a guess that many of the commn terms we use today are derived from a plethora of unpleasant things. for instance (and yes, I KNOW that this is a contested term with no solid proof either way so please save your comments ripping me apart for some other point) some scholars believe that the term 'picnic' used to be a common term for a lyching.

the difference between 'you guys' and 'cunt' is that people do not mean to be sexist when they use the term 'you guys'. (and yes also, i UNDERSTAND that is why the author is arguing they are so harmful, but i disagree)... cunt is meant to hurt and to maim and to be insulting... why not concntrate on the terms with power? why not go for them instead of fighting a losing battle against 'you guys'?

i would prefer to focus on terms like 'slut' and 'whore' and 'cunt'... words that still make us cringe when we hear them. we should be taking these words back. we should be asking questions like, why is the accusation of multiple sexual partners an insult? why is calling me a synonym for vagina hurtful?

these terms should not be as powerful as they are. and we give them power when we are afraid to talk about them and use them directly rather than saying 'the c word'. we should be taking these words back, and turning thier negative meaning into powerfully positive.

i did a little personal experiment with the word 'cunt' during my senior year in college. i made it a point to say the word casually in every class i was registered for. the reactions i got ranged from slightly shocked to horrified. that reaction is powerful, we should be harnessing that and finding out how to use it to our advantage, not screaming in vain everytime someone says 'mankind'.

i guess i just think we should fight something we have a chance against, that is meant to hurt, rather than focusing our energy on terms that have lost thier meaning and thier power.

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Hey guys
Posted by: gjames on Mar 12, 2007 6:15 AM   
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Heh, sorry. Well not really. Why not take ownership of these things...like, "real guys have vaginas" and "pregnant dudes have more fun," - whatever really.

Words like dude and guy aren't intrinsically patriarchal and exclusive, though they may be that incidentally. But also depending on the incident, they may not be - these kinds of words are neutral enough that you can use them however you'd like - perhaps poking fun at exclusion by altering the standard uses. When it comes to words like dude and guy, all right, sure, they can part of exclusion, but not certainly, and if they are, so minimally that a lighthearted approach is more appropriate than dogmatic seriousness. In my opinion.

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» RE: Hey guys Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Hey guys Posted by: hellofriends

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Sorry But I've Got Bigger Issues To Deal With
Posted by: Nez46 on Mar 12, 2007 6:45 AM   
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Good grief, we can barely get kids in public schools to read (and forget about math), a fascist madman is bringing the world to the brink of disaster, our economy is tanking, our political system is bought and paid for, our news outlets are propaganda outlets, our environment is disintegrating and you want me to do what - stop saying "you guys"?

Give me a break.

Why not spend some time on some of the more pressing issues before trying to correct a problem that arises in large part because of a lack of decent education in this country?
Good thing i didn't take your course as an undergrad-i doubt you'd have passed me.

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Not Questioning Gendered Language Demonstrates Its Power
Posted by: pdxstudent on Mar 12, 2007 6:47 AM   
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"the difference between 'you guys' and 'cunt' is that people do not mean to be sexist when they use the term 'you guys'. (and yes also, i UNDERSTAND that is why the author is arguing they are so harmful, but i disagree)... cunt is meant to hurt and to maim and to be insulting... why not concntrate on the terms with power? why not go for them instead of fighting a losing battle against 'you guys'?"

The fact that people, yourself included, are so inclined NOT to question why and how and if we use gendered language is a demonstration of its power. There is far more telling of the investment people have in an issue when they want to avoid it, dispell it, dismiss it, or otherwise take it off the table and not take it seriously.

I mean, consider the difference between "cunt" and "vagina." Which one do you think is, as a term refering to the reproductive anatomy of a woman, sexist? Most certainly the latter! "Vagina" literally means "sheath," as in a sheath for the penis. "Cunt," on the other hand, is a term that originated, and for some time continued to mean the female reproductive organ. You make a point about focusing on these terms, but I think you don't go far enough. The more important question, the one relevant to this article, isn't "why is calling me a synonym for vagina hurtful?" but "why is the term that actually refers to the anatomy of the woman (cunt), and not its (sub-ordinate) function in relation to men (vagina), seen as offensive, while the truly sexist term passes unquestioningly as medical terminology?" Invisable power is power par excellance. Gendered language is just one of many examples of how invisable power works.

I think people get hung up on the PC issue because it's many times implamented ineffectively. The notion of changing gendered or racist, or even capitalist or imperialist, language has less to do with the language as such than people are made to believe. PC language comes across as this neo-Orwellian NewSpeak kind of program to fry our brains into not questioning power, while the funny thing is that language as it is, from the PC stance, already performs this function. Changing gendered language is about changing the conditions in society that make gendered language a viable, sensible, unquestionable option. It's not that language wholly constitutes reality, or that reality is wholly and simply reflected in language, but that there is an obvious exchange between these two extremes. Changing gendered language is about entering this feed-back loop by way of historically transparent practices of language. Changing the objectification of women necessarily means making it possible to conceive and articulate women in our language in unobjectified terms.

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this issue is more complicated than that
Posted by: Jesse on Mar 12, 2007 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Male based" generics are not always that. The issue I take with people coming down on them is that they aren't always a reflection on values of the kind Kleinman speaks of.

For example, the word "Manning" as in "Manned" could come from the word for man, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest it may also be related to the latin root for "Hand" which is "Man- " and from which we get words like manual and manipulate. (If you know Spanish, think of "Mano," or the French "main")

Second, the words "man" and "woman" are Germanic and the old line in the Bible that the latter is derived from the former is simply wrong. (There's a part in Genesis where they say "wo-man" is derived from "man" but this is a complete and utter mangling of Hebrew. I'd be very interested to know how it plays in French or Chinese Bibles, since it seems unique to KJV and Gideons, but I digress).

That said, her hypothesis is only partially flawed (Flamers take note, read carefully please) because Kleinman is correct that in English the "neutral" pronouns tend to be "male" but this may have less to do with values and more to do with linguistic evolution that is only partly related.

For instance, in Spanish or French (in fact, Romance languages generally as far as I know) the neutral pronoun is "ses" or "se" or a variation thereof, which hasn't got a particular association with either sex as far as I can tell. Now, France and Spain share a culture that is pretty broadly similar to that of English speaking US and UK, but I wouldn't go on about sexist terms in either language based on that, and this whole discussion I think would be different if you were referencing either language here.

Kleinman is quite correct that words like "policeman" and such can reflect underlying assumptions, but again it isn't clear to me that they necessarily do. While it is interesting to reflect on the differing baggage of saying "Chairwoman" to a male in the position, I don't know that that necessarily says anything about a sexist culture per se.

I mean, the word, "Doctor" is a "masculine" noun (this is true in its German usage and Romance incarnations) but it doesn't carry the same baggage as police(man). In fact, doctor becomes feminine in French if you are referencing an eye doctor.

Note too that masculine and feminine (and neuter if you speak Latin or Russian) constructions have zero to do with the meaning of a noun itself--they are just grammitical placeholders. For example, "pen" and "pencil" are feminine and masculine respectively, (in French).

This relates to English because a good chunk of the constructions we use are remnants of when English did have genders like German does now. Much of that has been lost (we don't have strong and weak verbs, for instance, nor morphological changes in case for the most part). But the old habits still remain, and it may have to do with stuff that wasn't directly related to women's position in society. After all, ships are still feminine in English, even though few women were historically sailors. That would mean to me that there could be other reasons for that.

Kleinman seems to be working from the old Safir-Whorf hypothesis, which for those who didn't suffer through linguistics 101 is the idea that the words in a language define what one can express and how one does so. Thus far the hypothesis remains just that, because the research on the subject (and someone correct me if I am way out of date) I was familiar with points in many directions, and kind of depends on where you start your definitions of "express" and "understand."

But all this is to say that the way we process stuff is related to the words we use, but it isn't determined entirely by them, I don't think.

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» I was going to make a comment Posted by: Boomerang

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Strictly speaking...
Posted by: gjames on Mar 12, 2007 6:56 AM   
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From a Foucauldian perspective of power, talking about why terms like 'you guys' are male-normative demonstrates/sustains the power it seeks to criticize.

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» RE: Strictly speaking... Posted by: pdxstudent

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hobby horse
Posted by: karyse on Mar 12, 2007 6:55 AM   
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It never ceases to amaze me that powerful people (people with power) seem unaffected by terms that are meant to deride, and in fact, they often adopt them as positive terms, while others never manage to do so.

Ditto-head, an origianlly derogatory way to reference Rush Limbaugh listeners was quickly adopted by them, and they often use "mega-dittos, Rush" as a salutation.

Yankee, or Yank, an attempt at derision, failed.

Whitey, or Honkey, failed to engender any long term problem for whites.

Redneck, has been completely adopted as a positive by most rednecks.

I often hear folks who live in trailers (myself included) reference themselves as trailer-trash, without batting an eye, and "white trash with money" was recently produced as an album.

As to Bitch, as near as I can figure, the goddess Hecate, commonly associtated with she-dogs, and a sign of her approach was barking dogs, making the term not one of derision, so much as one of power. When someone calls me a bitch, I laugh and say, "thanks," because the speaker is granting me a kind of power over them. And I'm not kidding; it hurts me not at all.

Sorry folks, but "you guys" (youse guys in NY) is the replacement for gurle (girl now) which used to mean youth of any gender. I'll take "you guys" over girl, any time.

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hobby horse cont
Posted by: karyse on Mar 12, 2007 7:01 AM   
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Oh and I forgot, the term "guy" was originally one of derision.

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» RE: hobby horse cont Posted by: DaBear
» RE: hobby horse cont Posted by: karyse

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Alternatives
Posted by: ilene on Mar 12, 2007 7:14 AM   
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Sexist language may matter, but what are some acceptable linguistic alternatives? To subsitute woman for man is just as sexist and yet what other suggestions are being made? Is there some term that can be used instead of "you guys"?

To continue to be told how language is sexist is not saying much unless the discussion moves into the arena of alternatives. Until this discussion takes place, then folks such as Ms. Kleiman will continue to be told to tackle "important" women's issues.

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» RE: Alternatives Posted by: radact
» RE: Alternatives Posted by: Bbear41

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It might seem trivial, but ...
Posted by: elderwoman.org on Mar 12, 2007 7:33 AM   
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... this is not a trivial thing, I assure you. It's important, and if you follow the author's reasoning carefully, surely you can see why.

She is certainly not implying that every time anyone uses masculine words as generics they are being deliberately sexist. 99.9 percent of the time they are not. Hell, I've said 'you guys' to a mixed group myself before now. It is so much part of the lingo nowadays (even though it's only been around for a couple of decades as far as I can recall) that it actually feels generic by now.

And please let's not squabble about etymology. That's a red herring.

The whole point of a campaign like this is to raise consciousness. And it is a very good method for doing just that, as those of us know who are old enough to remember the days when 'racism' was a newly-minted word.

It works like this: when a certain word or phrase is designated as sexist, racist, ageist or whatever, then every time we find ourselves using it or hearing others use it we are reminded of the issues it represents. We are reminded that one sector of society is failing to accord respect to another sector, whether it be women, Jewish people, Muslims, old people, blacks, whites or whatever.

The more often we are reminded of the issues, the closer to the surface of our minds those issues come, until in the end we are constantly aware of them. We remind other people -- tactfully if we can -- that these words and phrases are no longer OK with us. Sometimes they scoff. But it means that conversations about the issues happen more and more. This is how the consciousness of the whole society is gradually raised. And when the consciousness of society is raised to a high enough level, that is when changes start to happen.

So yes, this might seem trivial. But it is not. When you weed a garden, you don't just pull out the really big weeds. You pull them all out, even the tiny ones. Even the tiny ones are important. It's all one, big project and it's about making the world a better, fairer place.

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The author is correct. We need to ensure we properly use language
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Mar 12, 2007 8:00 AM   
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the weird, grammatically incorrect usuage of words like "actor" to refer to a female or "bartender" to refer to a female is incorrect and sexist. We should always use proper, gender-specific words:
Actress- not actor
Bartendress- not bartender
Waitress- not waiter or server
Stewardess- not flight attendent
Executrix- not executor
and so on. Its important to be correct and not sexist.

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» Prefer genderless references Posted by: aouie01

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Hey Guys!
Posted by: Tyrus95 on Mar 12, 2007 8:02 AM   
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I always thought the use of "guys" to include women was a way of shifting the meaning of "guys" away from referring exclusively to men.

In changing sexist language, you either change the word, or you change what the existing word defines? What do you think?

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» RE: Hey Guys! Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Hey Guys! Posted by: MartianBachelor

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busted again
Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 12, 2007 8:04 AM   
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Didn't alternet JUSTdo an article on 'you guys' already? I'll admit this one has a lot more substance to it than the other but there are far more serious & urgent matters in the lives and worlds of women to write about than this.

Oh hey, I know, how about the story about the Vancouver Rape Relief shelter having just won the right to determine
who a 'woman' is for the sake of providing peer counselling to battered & raped women. This went all the way to the Canadian Supreme Court and took ten years to settle but dammit yes, now women can have a say in who & what a woman is, at least for the sake of the VRR shelter.

Here you have a 'former' man, now 'woman' taking the volunteer shelter to court for years and costing the shelter over $100,000 in legal fees just because this person wanted the volunteer position as a way to 'validate her womanhood.' Here you have the story of a man who sought to interject himself into the lives of women in a time of crisis simply because he wanted to and thought he had the right to. Of course, since the law and medicine now can make 'women' PDQ with surgery & drugs women should be happy to have men like Kimberly Nixon coming in and telling them how to run things. After all he comes with a buttload of experience & privilege and knows all about what women want and need, right?

Men still have and now have even more so, the legal right to interject themselves into the lives of women not known to them in times and places as they see fit to. Women have had no say nor were ever asked for their imput into this and men want to make sure that women stay stifled for it.

Now there's a substance in language & identity issue worth writing about in that the transexual/transgender/genderqueer crowd is fighting with women over who gets the 'right' to say who 'is' a woman. Of course the women, being women, should again just take a backseat to the men, now 'women', who have always known anyway what's best for us silly little hotheads anyway.

But oh wait, that would mean that queers aren't the happy little live-and-let-live pappys that alternet wants to write about and that also means that women do have a real issue with the substance and use/misuse of language by men who seek to control our lives.

Wow, a real there's a real story now.

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Okay, okay, let's just go back to "YOU GIRLS"!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Mar 12, 2007 8:08 AM   
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Happy now?

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» No that won't do... Posted by: marywi
» RE: No that won't do... Posted by: animalleaderisgreat

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female-based generics
Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Mar 12, 2007 8:11 AM   
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And can you think of one, just one, example of a female-based generic?

Well, I don't want to be a smartass, but what about "midwife"?
At least here in Holland, any obstetrician, be they male or female, can be referred to as a midwife. (of course, the dutch word is "vroedvrouw", but that is a female-based word as well.)

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» RE: female-based generics Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: female-based generics Posted by: marywi
» herstory Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: herstory Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» Fatherland/Motherland Posted by: moflard

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hey girlfriend
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 8:20 AM   
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i wonder why the south developed y'all.

Mankind, men this and men that is kindof stupid and i think it's changing a bit. it sort of seems like grandiose 19th century continental philosophy-speak to hear stuff like that.

i really have some problems, however, having problems with "you guys."

"Guy" originally came from the funny British history of Guy Fawkes. "guy" then somehow took on the connotation to mean "male," but in every dictionary i looked in "guys" (plural) is defined as a person of either gender. i have enough tolerance to suffer the ostensible injustice of this etymology.

i agree that the relationship between language and gender is worth discussing, but there seems to be bigger sticks and stones out there than "you guys." maybe i'll change my mind later.

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» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact

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The correct web address from the article
Posted by: radact on Mar 12, 2007 8:27 AM   
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hey y'all,

the article had the web address wrong for "you guys" cards. you can find them here:

youall2.freeservers.com

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No Resistance Too Big nor Too Small
Posted by: pdxstudent on Mar 12, 2007 8:29 AM   
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"Didn't alternet JUSTdo an article on 'you guys' already? I'll admit this one has a lot more substance to it than the other but there are far more serious & urgent matters in the lives and worlds of women to write about than this."

I can't help but wonder why people persist in the belief that in order to resist power you have to do it in the way power dictates. I can understand being miffed over a repeat article, but there's no basis for more or less important ideological resistance: it all matters.

Someone else brought up Foucault and his ideas about Power earlier. Power for Foucault was an immanently pervasive structure in our lives; it was, as he put it, capillary. Power functions at the smallest levels of our daily lives, and is in fact constituted in just that way. The kind of resistance to (patriarchal) power that this article suggests is perfectly in line with this observation. Those who brush it aside, or even get kind of offended, saying it's too small an issue or that there are more important feminist issues, are not as concerned with resisting power as much as conforming to it. Excluding anything from critique, including, if not especially the habits of everyday life, is a sign of power. If (patriarchal) power is to be resisted, it must be done down to the everyday experience of language.

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orwell called it newspeak
Posted by: gerdhansel on Mar 12, 2007 8:40 AM   
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Using language to manipulate people, what a novel concept.

In Orwell's 1984, Big Brother forced his population to use Newspeak because he thought this would control their minds. In his secret thoughts, Winston Smith called it "duck-speak."

Winston lived in a world of forbidden words and expression, watched over by the secret "thought police." But people still needed their Three-Minutes-Hate to vent the secret thoughts that were boiling inside.

When I read an article like this one, I hear the voice of the thought police loud and clear: we know what's best for you, we want to control your speech, we want to control your thoughts, we want to enslave you.

I get so very tired of having to watch every single word I say, and every gesture I make. It's enough to make you paranoid.

But as the Germans say, die gedanken sind frei, my thoughts are free. What's inside my head belongs to me until it comes out my mouth.

Think you can control the baser human impulses by playing language police-person? You'll only drive those impulses deeper.

The military does this to people all the time. Drill sergeant to private: "Are you angey, maggot? What is your major malfunction? Is there something you want to say to me? I didn't think so!"

The private swallows his anger because the drill sergeant has power over him, and then gets into a fight the next time he goes drinking in the local club. All that swallowed anger has a way of coming back up later on.

These languge police want to throw all of us into their own version of basic training, the permanent kind. Language slavery, with no three-minutes hate.

Big Brother is quacking at you.

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Language is political!
Posted by: marywi on Mar 12, 2007 8:43 AM   
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I also want to point out that it makes a difference if we say things like "The woman was raped." versus "A man raped the woman."

We get much more specific and accurate with the second sentence using active voice.

Another example is when we reify institutions and forget the human agency behind them. "The university did not take measures to prevent sexual assault on campus." Are we talking about the walls of the university? The walls? The sidewalk? The library books? The classrooms? The dorms?
OR are we talking about administrators, provosts, deans and chancellors, and members of the BOT?

It makes a big difference.

And in this same spirit, when we say "you guys" and other sexist phrases, we tend to picture male silhouettes. Sociologist Laurel Richardson discussed this in her work "Gender Stereotyping in the English Language." So if we usually picture men when we hear these phrases, we're most likely only going to think about male interests.

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» RE: Language is political! Posted by: MartianBachelor

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What?
Posted by: VoxPopuli on Mar 12, 2007 8:49 AM   
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Growing up male in the so-called "male-dominated" society, I was witness to so much contradiction to this idea. First of all, this article is nothing more than whining for more power to be "given" than "earned". My father cowed to my mother's wishes, without a grumble, but he also was the breadwinner of the family, same with EVERY friend's family I knew. Of course my mother had the choice to work, or not, and housework was performed by myself and my siblings. The implication that sex in marriage is unpaid compulsory work for a woman is bullshit, too. People pay for an education at a public university and get this? Gimme a break. As a BOY in school, I participated in sports, and we were constantly called "girl". Did I whine and cry and try some passive-aggressive crap? NO! I tried harder and succeeded. If women have troubles with such trivial terminology as "you guys", maybe they should demonstrate without question the constitution of themselves that makes them MORE than a guy ( of course, this would not be very difficult, for women are more than men on many levels, and vice versa ). Social change without understanding is fascism. I love strong women who are confident in who they are, I loathe any weakling ( any gender ) that BEGS for social change for an agenda they believe but do not understand.

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I hate "ladies"
Posted by: judiths1_az on Mar 12, 2007 8:55 AM   
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As I've aged it seems to me that restaurants are determined to call me and my friends "ladies". I hear it not once or twice during a meal but over and over again as often as the person comes to my table. I don't hear the same denoting for men. It seems to me that men are regular people and don't need to be defined. Well, I want the same consideration. I don't want to be defined either and I often ask servers to stop saying "ladies". Some them stop it. I compliment those who don't do it.

As a much younger woman I'd tell some guy trying to shake hands with the men and kiss the ladies to kiss my husband before he kisses me. They never wanted to do that.

At age 63 this is an argument which will continue after my death.

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» RE: I hate "ladies" Posted by: Mamarianne

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Look where it was printed
Posted by: marywi on Mar 12, 2007 8:57 AM   
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The fact that a rape crisis center decided to print it in their newsletter is telling.

This issue is connected to the larger oppression of women. Sexist language is connected to sexual violence is connected to reproductive rights is connected to the "second shift" is connected to the devaluation of women's work....

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» Good point, female victimization = power Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Good point, male entitlment = power Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey
» RE: Good point, male entitlment = power Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey

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Golly, this sure is an intelligent issue
Posted by: H_H on Mar 12, 2007 8:57 AM   
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I wish English was a gender-neutral language that didn't have hurtful words like "guys"

Why, just look at Persian- it's been gender-neutral since the middle ages. If you want to see a wonderful gender utopia, go to Iran. There are lots of women in positions of power in that country, right? Lots of female imams in the holy city of Qom, yes?

All we need to do to build heaven on earth is make sure that we don't use words that could offend the most hypersensitive woman within earshot.

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I hate "ladies"
Posted by: judiths1_az on Mar 12, 2007 9:04 AM   
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As I've aged it seems to me that restaurants are determined to call me and my friends "ladies". I hear it not once or twice during a meal but over and over again as often as the person comes to my table. I don't hear the same denoting for men. It seems to me that men are regular people and don't need to be defined. Well, I want the same consideration. I don't want to be defined either and I often ask servers to stop saying "ladies". Some them stop it. I compliment those who don't do it.

Dr. Gross in her book, "Buddhism After Patriarchy" says: "Feminism also is serious about words, often to the exasperation of those who cannot see the subtle link between language and consciousness...". This idea helps me with this issue.

If we "just say nothing" nothing will change.

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» RE: I hate "ladies" Posted by: hellofriends

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the 'root' of this whole problem
Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Mar 12, 2007 9:04 AM   
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Man...Woman...hmmm...doesn't it look like the one word is derived from the other? What we need is a word for "woman" that has nothing to do with "man" and I don't mean by just changing the "a" to a "y." And to do this, we're all going to have to go back in time to the genesis of the English language and stop this injustice. Or we could just speak Spanish. I mean, hombre and mujer look nothing alike on paper, though I'm not a linguistic scholar to the point where I could prove that mujer doesn't have some unfortunate origin...just remember, most communication is non-verbal. Language is just another of our institutions whose validity condenses and evaporates only at our behest.

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I hate "ladies"
Posted by: judiths1_az on Mar 12, 2007 9:06 AM   
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As I've aged it seems to me that restaurants are determined to call me and my friends "ladies". I hear it not once or twice during a meal but over and over again as often as the person comes to my table. I don't hear the same denoting for men. It seems to me that men are regular people and don't need to be defined. Well, I want the same consideration. I don't want to be defined either and I often ask servers to stop saying "ladies". Some of them stop it. I compliment those who don't do it.

Dr. Gross in her book, "Buddhism After Patriarchy" says: "Feminism also is serious about words, often to the exasperation of those who cannot see the subtle link between language and consciousness...". This idea helps me with this issue.

If we "just say nothing" nothing will change.

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» RE: I hate "ladies" Posted by: pomes

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interesting
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 9:23 AM   
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"Man" originally meant all of humankind, with no gendered implications whatsoever. of course it's changed since then. but at first it meant Hand, because humans were seen as different from animals because we had hands. wtf.

In old english "Man" was still gender neutral and "wer" and "wyf" were used to refer to men and women, respectively.

The controversy begins in middle english. as wikipedia explains:

In Middle English man displaced wer as term for "male human", whilst wyfman (which eventually evolved into woman) was retained for "female human". ("Wyf" also evolved into the word "wife".) "Man" does continue to carry its original sense of "Human" however, resulting in an asymmetry sometimes criticized as sexist.

i'm actually kindof confused about this, maybe someone could help me out. if "Man" still meant human, why would it be sexist to say werman and wyfman? doesn't this just mean male human (from wer + man) and female human (wyf + man)?

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A fine argument made
Posted by: DaBear on Mar 12, 2007 9:27 AM   
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As a male (read: intrinsically evil-hah!) I am still left with nothing positive I can work with from this analysis other than, if we are strangers, there's not much I can do. I wonder if this is really a "white" problem... whites have this habit of demanding that others be mind-readers, that we're entitled to not have to communicate our needs to others nor to inquire of others what their needs might be, and, simultaneously, we are entitled to criticize, presume and assume volumes about people we don't bother to get to know.

My mate, I know very well. If I were to refer to her as a guy or a "lady" or a "ma'am" I will be struck with an open or closed hand, or at minimum receive some sort of verbal reproach. But by and large, if someone is a stranger and refers to her in a group as "you guys" she doesn't notice and it takes nothing from her. OTOH, I have a cousin who would take greast umbrage with such a referent, so with her, I don't use "you guys." Beyond that, it seems a bit absurd to presume with total strangers since I have, as a male, a 99.999% chance of getting ANY referent wrong; not using the referent someone else may prefer simply because I don't know them yet.

I agree words are indeed important, so important that words like "lie" and "liar" need to be used when people in authority deserve them. And that seems a bit more important, just to me.

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» RE: A fine argument made Posted by: marywi
» Lying in wait for The Guy to make a mistake! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Lying in wait for The Guy to make a mistake! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: A fine argument made Posted by: pomes

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Calling men "boys"
Posted by: anniedine on Mar 12, 2007 9:32 AM   
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This whole language thing is both an advanced topic (hence the continued confusion for people who don't give any of this much deep thought – a group well represented in the comment postings) and something very simple (you can easily understand it by transposing "white" with "man").

There's a whole demographic of people who insist on referring to grown women as "girls" (including themselves). Here's another simple method for waking yourself up. Spend one day calling every man you encounter, or speak of in the abstract, "boy" and see the reactions you get. Be very careful, though, when doing this with people who are not white (see any correlation in the degrading terms?).

I have no doubt that this silly practice of calling women "girls" will die out on its own when those "girls" get sick of being treated just like the word they use to refer to themselves.

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let's just speak fucking gibberish
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 9:36 AM   
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nini tillan vangandian? allono, til moni lavandan, a len mill blien a fath.

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We went through this in the 80s
Posted by: dirkster42 on Mar 12, 2007 9:46 AM   
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And the backlash seems enormous. It seems to me that there were a lot of good points about inclusive language that got lost in taking it overboard and getting hung up on getting vocabulary just perfect, instead of looking at contexts and processes. The good points got lost in peoples' inability be anything close to relaxed about it. A couple of reasons why I think there are some good points to these arguments, though:

One of my teachers in seminary made a point to just use hymns that didn't contain male imagery for God when she preached in churches. She'd have women coming up to her afterwards, saying, "Church felt different today, I can't put my finger on it, but it was more like home than ever before." My teacher was very conscious of the way everyday life and religious symbols make women feel like outsiders. She just changed a few words, and found that women felt more comfortable in their own skins, which gave them energy to pursue everything else in their lives with more gusto.

The feminist biblical scholar Elisabeth Shussler Fiorenza started using the word wo/men to refer to women and men who are oppressed by class or race, to make men go through the same "checking process" of asking "am I included or not?" After reading a few pages, I really got the issue. This is the book where she did that.

Also, inclusive-language lectionaries and Bibles started being published in the '80s and 90s. New Testament and Psalms. Not calling God "Father," really freaked some people out, but in several liberal congregations, the inclusive language became standard.

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at least know something about language...
Posted by: kiel on Mar 12, 2007 9:56 AM   
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The author states: "It's no accident that 'man' is the anchor in our language and "woman" is not."

Right, but for all the wrong reasons.

As "interesting" stated earlier, "man" was once the term for all people (human being). "Woman" was "female human". "Gumma" was the word for "male person" (replaced later by werman). We still have one vestige of "gumma" -- groom, in bridegroom.

The forms we have today took centuries of linguistic change to come about, and the appearance of "man" in so many forms is NOT accidental--they are derived from a term meaning human or all people. Although not accidental, this language change does not seem to be pernicious. The fact that these terms have been re-interpreted and re-cast politically as gender specific, by both those who would like to subjugate women and by those who would like to point out that English just isn't fair to women is not only NOT accidental, but also pernicious -- in both cases this reinterpretation and preoccupation seems to be a symptom of a socio-political agenda.

This is understandable: Language is power.

But if one wants to fight the power, at least know something about language.

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You Won't Find "Freshwhite" in Any Dictionary
Posted by: scot on Mar 12, 2007 10:24 AM   
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Unlike "freshman." That must mean black people haven't had nearly as much trouble with white people as women have had with men (at least in English-speaking countries)--right? No, the ridiculous conclusion only follows from a very poor argument. Our mother tongue not being the problem, superstitious word-magic cannot be the solution.

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» I think it's a new toothpaste Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» No but they edited it.... Posted by: moflard
» you straighties, you ablebodies Posted by: kellybelly

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Exactly the type of PC trivia which earns feminists derision
Posted by: janvdb on Mar 12, 2007 10:25 AM   
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All modern dictionaries define "chairman" and "a PERSON who chairs," so get a grip.

We are never going to change the use of "-man" to indicate "a person who --" to "-person" to mean the same thing because most reasonable people realize that this is unnecessary. The meaning has already been expanded to include women.

Does anyone actually think that a "postman" is necessary a man, and not a woman? Of course not. The definition of "postman" has been expanded to include women.

"Postperson?" Are you serious? That is ridiculous and no one is going to pick it up. Just not going to happen.

Same thing with using "his" to mean "his/hers." Using "his or hers" every time is unnecessary. Everyone realizes what you are saying. "Each student should bring his book." Yeah, the girls should bring their books, too.

People understand that. As long as meaning passes, you will not succeed in your goal of getting people to change their habits of speaking, so why set an impossible goal?

An appropriate activity for those who are concerned about this sort of thing would be to pressure dictionaries to include a third or fourth definition of "his" to mean "his or hers."

As far as trying to get busy, active people with real lives to take the time to fret about this type of minutea, good luck. It's a waste of time and makes feminists look petty.

Get a life. Men have been dominant for a long time and that has affected our language. Trying to get people to change these daily usages is an impossible task, an unnecessary task, and useless task.

Just forget about it. Get over it.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» USPS is still unenlightened Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» And the answer is... Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: And the answer is... Posted by: radact

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One thing to keep in mind
Posted by: marywi on Mar 12, 2007 10:29 AM   
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The last article on alternet that addressed sexist language like "you guys" had 298 comments the last time I checked. Most of them, unfortunately, were vehement rejections to the project of eliminating sexist language. Some were very long and some even contained profanity.

If this is just a trivial and unimportant issue, why all the long, harsh, and ourtraged responses to it? If this issue is as trivial as many people say it is, then why not just change our vocabularies and not make a big deal out of it??

I think people realize (after being pointed out to them) that language is something so taken-for-granted and so 'everyday' that if we're told it actually reflects AND reinforces sexism, it bothers us. We realize that if even our language is oppressive, we must have a lot of work to do. And we DO have a lot of work to do. So let's please make our language more inclusive and keeping fighting sexism everywhere :)

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general terms of abuse
Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 12, 2007 10:30 AM   
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It is interesting to note the sort of abusive terms men typically use - most of them have to do with sex acts and almost all of them insinuate that sex is some sort of sub/dom abusive thing.

I almost never hear women doing that.

I think "cocksucker" and the like are far more insidious and damaging than something like "you guys" (which I don't use either)

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» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: marywi
» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: radact
» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: John Wilbur
» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» How about PRICK? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Maybe a Female PRICK Hall of Fame? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Hey, you JERK!! Posted by: MartianBachelor

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Confusing sexism with gendered language
Posted by: CJC on Mar 12, 2007 10:47 AM   
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Russia is the Motherland, Germany is das Vaterland, and France is la patrie. I don't know what the language gender is in Russian, but das Vaterland is linguistically neuter (Land is neuter) and la patrie - derived from Latin pater (father) is linguistically feminine. Are we clear yet?

Many, even most?, Indo-European languages have linguistic gender that is separate from sex. German has die Frau but das Fraulein, because the endings -lein and -chen are always neuter.

In English we have all this trouble with the ending -man, which my dictionary says originally did not necessarily refer only to males. Otherwise, what sense can we make of the word 'woman'?

A non-Indo-European language I know, Turkish, makes no pronomial distinction in the singular, just as "they" in English does not indicate gender. They don't have to tie themselves in knots as in "A student who wants to apply for the fall semester must submit his/her application...."
This linguistic agnosticism hardly ensures that Turkish society is blessedly free of sexism.

While it's true that language can be used powerfully to convey obvious and subtle messages it does not follow that every gendered expression like "You guys" or "freshman" disadvantages women (oops "..men").

What offends me more in common speech is men talking about "We" as though "we" are all male. I notice it, for example, with Stephen Colbert (whose "Report" I watch faithfully) who talks about all the time about "balls" and "cojones." It's funny, of course, but often he really is talking about having "courage" or "spine" or "guts." Half his audience can never have "balls" but we can all have "guts."
This kind of language has two effects - one is to exclude half of us from "we" and the other is to suggest that only men can be taken seriously.

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I am a 'guy'
Posted by: browsercat on Mar 12, 2007 11:16 AM   
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I've been in three non-traditional, male-dominated, college-level training programs in which I was the only woman, and my career is traditionally male. My DH is nothing but supportive and encouraging of me in my chosen field.

I have nothing against being called a 'guy' when the term is used in reference to a group of people because unlike other languages in which there are genderless inclusive plurals, English has no term to indicate 'you-who-are-male-and-female' other than the frequently pejorative 'you people'. In order to make it easier on the instructors who are/were all male, I have made it clear that when they refer to the entire group, the use of the term 'guys' is ok. This is my choice, and I see nothing wrong with it and am not put off by its use in this context.

As a woman in a non-traditional field regularly encountering people not quite sure how to address me, whether they can swear in my presence or not, etc., I've found that a bit of humor works a damn sight better than handing out little pieces of paper to help the other person save face after a faux pas, and that people who are given the out of a bit of a laugh over it are much more likely to listen later on.

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» RE: I am a 'guy' Posted by: marywi
» RE: I am a 'guy' Posted by: hellofriends

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Let's all work on this together.
Posted by: janten on Mar 12, 2007 11:58 AM   
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Language and our use of it is very important, extremely important.

Our patterns of thought determine the patterns of our feelings and of our actions - of all of our behavior. Our repeated patterns become our habits that create and reinforce our world views and all of our assumptions and beliefs behind our world views. Almost all of this happens unconsciously and forms the basis for everything about ourselves, including our more conscious behavior. Individually, all of this essentially creates who we are in this world, our personalities. Collectively, this results in our cultural and national personalities.

The language we use is both a significant underlying formulator of our behavior and also an outer effect or result of who we are on all scales, from personal to interpersonal to international. Language is also a significant tool we can work with, on subtle and not so subtle levels, to reformulate who we are as individuals, as cultures, as nations. It's not a magic wand that will quickly cure all of our worldly problems. We've used it for years, decades, generations, forever, to get ourselves into the situations and conditions we are currently in. It will take years, decades, generations to work with language to help improve on our current conditions and situations. And we need to also work with and on a lot of other things, too. But that's no reason to belittle or ignore the significance of trying to change our use of language as a tool for positive change in the world.

One of the biggest problems we have in English (and many other languages) is the lack of gender neutral words to replace the dominant use of he, him, his and man. If we English speakers could/would only come up with good, natural, short, smoothly flowing sounds to replace these words whenever gender need not be specified, and begin consciously using them, it would begin to make a significant difference to us in our individual lives and in our world. Even for those of us who think it doesn't bother us because we don't care or because we believe we know that the use of masculine words are meant to be inclusive, such a change will begin to make a difference.

The biggest problem we face in making such language changes is that language development/evolution is a dynamic process that results from how we use it and, unfortunately, the vast majority of us seem to be very lazy about how we use language. That is the reason trying to make progress through the use of language as a tool for change will be frustratingly slow. But even if such progress will be slow, that doesn't mean it's not worth our efforts. Also, trying to fix our various world problems, large and small alike, will continue to prove more difficult than necessary if we don't also work on changing our language and our use of language. Our use of language is pervasive and therefore affects everything we try to do, just as everything we do affects our language.

Let's all work on this together.

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On the evolution of language...
Posted by: kchloevt on Mar 12, 2007 12:01 PM   
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To myself and, I imagine, other young people today, a term such as "policeman" sounds terribly old-fashioned. These have been quietly supplanted by the fair and descriptive (and not PCishly nauseating either) "police officer," "fire fighter," "postal worker," etc. The only words that don't have a gender-neutral substitute are the third-person singular he/she. Although, they are being replaced by the third person plural they/them (much to the chagrin of English teachers everywhere, I'm sure). Within the last week, I have heard the word "themself" used several times without any trace of grammatical shame. I agree with the people that say it is a waste of time to try to force the language. It will change to fit the social mores on its own eventually.

As far as the "you guys" controversy, I am just as guilty of it myself, even when referring to all-female groups of my friends. I am not sure what to think of this. I know that using "you all" or, especially, "y'all" would meet with derision in my midwestern suburb (of the "you might be a Redneck if..." variety), but no one so much as blinks at "you guys," even females. I suppose it is a reaction to the lack of distinction between the second person singular and plural (lost when we dropped "thou" from the lexicon), but I agree that in its present form, it is sexist since "guy" in the singular form most definitely refers to a male. I do hear "you people" used, but that is usually used when the speaker is trying to disassociate *themself* from the audience. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to worry about it too much since there are much more important issues in the world affecting people of both sexes. Plus, I'm too busy putting the *guys* in their place in my male-dominated field of study (mechanical engineering), lol.

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Why not embrace it?
Posted by: suprmark on Mar 12, 2007 12:18 PM   
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Instead of railing against the word 'guy', why not embrace it as a new gender neutral term? I think it's clear that something gender neutral is needed. It seems impossible to return 'man' to its neutral origins, and the opposite of guy - gal - is not regularly used anymore. 'You guys' is generally recognized as referring to both sexes and expanding that meaning to 'guy' is probably easier than thinking up gender neutral expressions for every word ending in 'man' and convincing people that 'you guys' isn't actually gender neutral. And it's just one syllable which is key. Sure 'chairguy' sounds weird at first, but it's less awkward than 'chairperson.' Language is supposed to become less, not more, formal as time passes.

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» RE: Why not embrace it? Posted by: radact
» RE: Why not embrace it? Posted by: suprmark

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youse, ye, ze, per, zir, sie, hir, zhe, hir, zes, yous, yinz
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 12:39 PM   
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any more?

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Hey you Witches!!!-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 12, 2007 1:23 PM   
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In first grade (1950's) I got in trouble for refusing to say 'man' when using a sentence -where the sex of a person was unknown.
"But I am a GIRL"-I protested.
My mother was called and I was told to 'mind the teacher'.
Thus began my journey into rebellion.

So nowdays we use 'he-or she'-which is strange. I think the appeal of 'you guys' is that it is a CLASS-LESS word. I hate 'ladies', women vs girls has its own issues...gal-sounds stupid-

I always liked Comrade!

Comrades!-let us organize and overthrow the evil Bush Empire and save the Earth before SHE is poisoned to death with war and pollution!

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Misguided views.
Posted by: Vin on Mar 12, 2007 2:02 PM   
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First off, this phrase made me laugh.

“…the "third shift" (women's responsibility for intimate relationships with men)”

Are you serious? Sex is a ‘fourth’ shift? I do not believe that any sexually normal woman will compare sex to their job. You make it sound like women do not enjoy sex at all and are forced to work overtime just to please the lustful demands of her male partner. That is most definitely not the case in a healthy relationship.

Back on topic though, what would you suggest we use instead of “you guys”? I’m in charge of a group of people and they are always “you guys”, regardless of what the gender mix is. There are no acceptable alternatives though. Should I use “you guys and women”? That’s too inefficient. I could use “you people” but that can be taken as a racist comment even though it’s being used to refer to a group of people of mixed races and genders. “You guys” is the only neutral term for a group of people.

Over all though I think you have a vastly skewed image of men. Just by the way you write I can tell you look for sexism everywhere and nail yourself to the cross every chance you get. Just like a person who looks for racism everywhere, eventually you are going to create it where it never existed.

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» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: pomes
» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: radact
» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: pomes
» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: Vin
» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: radact
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Take Your Seat in the Front of the Bus
Posted by: VoxPopuli on Mar 12, 2007 2:22 PM   
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And quit riding in the back. Oppression should be battled first by NOT wearing it like a badge of honor. The examples shown by the heroes of oppressed peoples' causes have consistently been of shedding the uniform of the masses and contrasting ones inner self against the percieved societal norm, thus leading others in the cause for higher truths. As in this case, "feminist" ideals lead others to cast themselves in a role of subservience to the power model, while denying the very thing to be struggled for: EQUALITY. Be you female or male ( or trans-gender ), we are all (for lack of a better word) HUMAN first and most importantly, and a HUMAN has higher regard for self than to be caught in this petty game. Begging for a place at the table is admission of feelings of unworthiness of the postion; seizing the right, priveledge, and duty to be present is much more practical and does not play into the hands of the power broker. Did the Hon. Nancy Pelosi find her position by whining and waiting to be granted permission to represent her fellow citizens? duh. Maybe we should try teaching our children to use terms like HUPERSON? We should love ourselves and each other more than our percieved oppressors hate us. The little things will keep us down in the trenches, and progress will never be gained.

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Parent Earth - not mother Earth.
Posted by: aouie01 on Mar 12, 2007 3:22 PM   
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It is a common tendency of people to ignore a problem that is slightly in favor of a presumably "oppressed" group (female humans are in the majority, and not a minority as in most other common "oppression" cases).
People who are generally conscious of avoiding needless grouping and unjustifiable attributing of characteristics or power to specific groups ignore such attribution when made to a presumably "oppressed" group. Please be more consistent in pushing for avoidance of unnecessary grouping, and unjustifiable attribution of characteristics or power.
The next time someone refers to mother Earth or "proud Hispanic heritage" raise similar concerns to what you would if you heard someone refer to the Sun as male or express pride in "Caucasian heritage".
Sincerely,
Aouie

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Genderless language modifications to "official" English
Posted by: aouie01 on Mar 12, 2007 3:27 PM   
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Many words become part of "official" English even if the number of people who use it are far fewer than the people who push for genderless references. While it is true that several different variations exist (e.g. I try to avoid pronouns altogether to stay consistent with proper "official" English even though it initially sounds odd), there is a large portion of the English speaking population that often use genderless references (unless there is a need for a gender reference). It is high time "official" English included the option.
Sincerely,
Aouie

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Sexist language sure matters!
Posted by: calalily on Mar 12, 2007 3:41 PM   
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First, let me give thanks where thanks are due: among all the sites I tour every day, Alternet is [by far] the one who posts the most articles by/about/for women [the others keep complaining that there aren't enough women authors!]

The mainstream media are of no use to us women. To them we are just a "minority" [only half the population!].

As Heather Wokusch [http://www.heatherwokusch.com/] notes in her excellent book [in the section "Mainstream Media"] I just read:
"You might be surprised to learn that:
-three companies control 25% of the daily news circulated in the whole world
-Clear Channel owns over 1,200 radio stations, or roughly one third of all radio stations in the United States
-three conglomerates (AOL, Time Warner, GE and news Corporation] own all of the US cable news network."

In the section "Women's Issues," she lists a bunch of unbelievable anti-women quotes, among which this one from the infamous Ann Coulter:
"Women --and I don't mean to limit that to the biological sense-- always become hysterical at the first sign of trouble. They have no capacity to solve problems, so instead they fret. But despite the fearful fifth columnists whiling away the war naysaying America's response, we will win this war. You just stay warm girls --the men are fixing the car." [Nov. 1st, 2001]

[Wokusch also has a series of videos posted at http://www.youtube.com/heatherwokusch.]

If we don't support our own women-friendly media and publications, what passes for media today will keep promoting their militaristic culture [militarism being misogynous by definition] and redefine the language we use. Soon enough, there won't be any room left for our many voices. Yes indeed, "sexist language matters" very much!

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Really important stuff
Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 12, 2007 5:07 PM   
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What with all else going on in the world right now, this seems just a bit superficial, doncha think?

But I read the piece anyway. Yawn.

Here's a question for all of you: How come sexism BY women is never addressed? Hmmm?

And while I never use sexist language, demean women or do anything that would rile an ardent feminist, can you please give me an example of woman-made lake?

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THIS IS BULLSHIT
Posted by: Rshaw on Mar 12, 2007 9:06 PM   
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I'm so sick of this identity politics bullshit. I mean yes we need to be aware of our language and how they reproduce social inequality. But if we have deep material inequality it only reinforces identity inequality - so we need to pay more attention to systemic issues. Even if we change our language so that is perfect we will still have with us the most fundamental problems in our society - vast material inequality. And that inequality will still be more so brought upon women and minorities.

Wake up and change this capitalist system and stop ignoring it. I may make all these fake activist post modernists feel warm to focus on "what we can change today", but the fake is that this changes very little and will likely be rolled back anyway.

It really feels like a lot of people in progressive circles are giving up on social inequality. Largely because they are rich and white, and might have to deal with that fact should they come to terms with systemic issues.

If you want to change things think about how we can create new structures that promote equality - non-profits, coops, community resources. We must put the power back in the hands of average people and to do that we need to have more resources democratically controlled by average people. Who controls the resources controls social mechanisms of our society and who controls these mechanism more or less controls our language in the end. We must provide a genuine space to develop our own language not just randomly try to change it within the current oppressive system.

We have been at this identity politics game for decades and what has it got us? Well things have become much worse, way to go, lets continue.

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» RE: THIS IS BULLSHIT Posted by: hellofriends

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Gentlemanbug
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 9:47 PM   
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Please help. I am a ladybug. I am a male. Everyday on my way to the flower people remark "oh wow look how cute, a ladybug." I am ashamed, helpless and confused.

Thank you alternet for giving me a voice. I wish all of you well. Flutter flutter flutter...

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» RE: Gentlemanbug Posted by: morticia
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somethimes a cigar is just a cigar!
Posted by: grey1156 on Mar 13, 2007 4:41 AM   
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I agree with the idea that a greater care on the choice of word is important; the use of terms such as man or guys can at times have underlining sexist views. Equally important is the premise of not looking for a sexist attitude in the absolute use of a word or phrase. The only true absolute is that there are no absolutes. Such a belief can be an expression of non thinking, just pigeonhole it, without regard. This justifies an environment of censorship. Most people do not speak in the third person chairperson. policeperson, fireperson, etc… let women use women and men use men, because you are speaking from your gender and not go looking for sexist behavior, seek and you will find. The discussion of violence against women could be seen as a sexist attitude, why not violence against persons. Yes the fact that there is so much horror in the amount of violence against women by men is self evident, but do women truly feel that they are less violent than men, that is despicable. Violence is not the product of an empty fist, but an expression, which women are equally capable of. How we see ourselves is how we see each other, if you can lie to yourself how easy is it to lie to others. Everything in the dream is you.

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it's a class thing
Posted by: karyse on Mar 13, 2007 5:57 AM   
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As long as we battle each other, we will not battle our enemies. I have more in common with the poor slob digging a ditch than I'll ever have in common with Hillary.

The poor slob digging a ditch (man or woman) has little time nor inclination to assess his/her use of language as he/she is working 12 hour days, or perhaps two to three jobs, or maybe is just too effing tired.

When the boss comes up and says, "okay, you guys, less talk, more work" I don't give a shit about the "guy" part, because it clearly indicates, as another poster suggested, that all of us in the ditch are comrades.

And when I ask, "hey guys, isn't it time for a union?" anyone who agrees, will be fired -- man or woman.

Sorry people, it just doesn't matter.

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» RE: it's a class thing Posted by: kellybelly

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Oh my God, we're still on this crap?
Posted by: Ayla87 on Mar 13, 2007 10:50 AM   
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We didn't give a damn after the first article, what makes the author think a second one will change our minds? Because she teaches a class on the subject? You can have a PH.D in this subject for all I care and still not give a shit. There are women in this country being beaten, abused and repressed and you're focusing your time on an article about why "sexist" language matters. Someone has some skewed priorities if you ask me.

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Simple Change
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 12:53 PM   
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I don't recall the author asking everyone to stop challenging other forms of oppression (ie violence against women).

I think the article was an additionanl consideration. It seems relatively simple to me to change the language that I say. Where as asking me to stop "men's violence against women" seems a rather daunting task in comparision.

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Proposal- just try it
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 1:10 PM   
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It's funny I read this article and decided to just try listening to the number of times people used the word "you guys."

It's amazing. And it isn't even logical.

My partner's 5 year old asked the other day why women can't be postmen. Heh. It's funny to laugh at first. But the way we socialize children and the language we teach them influences their thought processes.

I agree that language affects attitude and attitude affects behavior.

Just thinking of words that exist in other languages that don't exist in ours and the corresponding attitudes and behaviors that go with them.

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"Guy" validates me, "Girl" makes me feel less serious...
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 1:27 PM   
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As a woman, if someone makes me feel like I'm one of the guys, or calls me "guy." I feel like I have that status- that it's okay to be called "a guy" because that's a desired status in society.

Because that position comes w/ privilege.

And of course it's a double standard to call women "guys" and it be Okay, but it's not okay a person to call men "girls," because it just doesn't carry the same social weight.

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Proposal II- Call everyone Girls
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 1:27 PM   
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And see how far it gets you.

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Guys and Guys
Posted by: sgoodhall on Mar 13, 2007 4:28 PM   
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The Oxford English Dictionary defines a guy as "A person of grotesque appearance, esp. with reference to dress; a ‘fright’." Years ago I convinced my daughters that "guy" is gender-neutral.

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oh blah
Posted by: whitey on Mar 13, 2007 4:32 PM   
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And this article is an example of why progressives have been stuffed left right and centre for the last 30 years. While a bunch of lefties whinge about language, the far right is getting on with passing laws, organising and crucifying the political system.
This is a ridiculous diversion. Get over it

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Interesting discussion
Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 13, 2007 5:23 PM   
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I admit I read this article and found it profoundly stupid, but the responses here are anything but, for the most part.

But here's a few questions for you.

What do we do about the fact that all the romance languages have masculine and feminine genders?

How about the terms "mother" and "father?" Is it sexist to differentiate? Should there be a word that is gender-neutral to cover both?

If the draft is reinstated, should all women of age be required to register to avoid sexism?

Should I treat all women like I treat men? In other words, should I not attempt to be more polite, considerate, behave myself, in other words, be a gentleman?

When a woman flirts with me, should I deck her?

When a woman tells me a dirty joke, should I accuse her of sexual harassment? If in the workplace, should I seek to have her removed form her job?

If I see a man beating up a woman, should I avoid interferring, as it would imply she is weak?

And when the women I know call each other "guys," should I hand them a copy of this article?

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» RE: Interesting discussion Posted by: opeluboy
» RE: Interesting discussion Posted by: opeluboy

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Cool New Website
Posted by: electorials on Mar 13, 2007 8:17 PM   
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hey...come check out www.electorials.com

Check out our brand new blogs and our great and organized political message boards.

Bryan

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Hey Folks (Not Guys) things will change..
Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 14, 2007 7:22 AM   
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Did it ever occur to anyone that these phrases have been indoctrinated into the culture over a very long period of time?

The strides womens rights and roles have made in the last 75 years or so have simply left the language in the dust.

The language will correct itself over a period of time, it always does.

But its silly to to believe that use of words like guys or postman are anything more than habits.

I recieved an e-mail last week urging me to contact my congresswoman. See its happening.

Maybe a little patience is in order.

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An interesting note on English language usage
Posted by: susanhathaway on Mar 14, 2007 4:23 PM   
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Of all of the pairs of words in English that have traditionally had "male" and "female" versions (actor/actress, instructor/instructress, doctor/doctrix, etc.), only ONE pair involves a basic word referring to the female and the variant referring to the male: widow/widower.

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Refusing to play along
Posted by: jfields@sfsu.edu on Mar 16, 2007 7:44 AM   
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So often when I teach classes on gender, sexuality, and race, students leave the room despairing about what they possibly do to challenge a system that disadvantages so many women, people of color, and LGBTQ people. They recognize that the problem is systemic, and they have little sense how to bring down an entire system. I love the "you guys" analysis because it reminds us all that too often we do our part to keep that system going. It's these little gestures--you guys, freshman, and so on--that sustain sexism by obscuring it.

Kleinman says, "Male-based generics are another indicator -- and more importantly, a reinforcer -- of a system in which "man" in the abstract and men in the flesh are privileged over women." That's why this matters, and that's why I taught myself to use a different but familiar term--you. That's right, plain ol' "you." You remember its amazing ability to be both singular and plural?

So when I'm out fighting the fight, resisting the incarceration of women of color or advocating for sexuality education that respects the lives and needs of queer youthe and youth of color, I don't undermine my efforts by playing along in a mindless way with a sexist structure. I don't let my language suggest that that the lives of women and men are all the same. I keep my eye on the ways that sexism, racism, and poverty have real material consequences for most of us, leaving many of *you guys* in an advantaged position.

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Replace "you guys" with "all y'all muhfuggas"
Posted by: papibear on Mar 17, 2007 2:58 PM   
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And watch how quickly people will say "wow, I think I liked 'you guys' after all." Especially when you hear a 5 year old girl get her girlfriends' attention on the playground at recess by saying "hey, all y'all muhfuggas, look at my new Hello Kitty coin purse!"

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libertyordeath
Posted by: libertyordeath on Mar 17, 2007 4:17 PM   
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Changing language does not work.Whenever I hear the word "special" I hear "retarded".You can not make nice of language.Speak english,say what is meant by the word.

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People simply do not like you.
Posted by: K. on Mar 17, 2007 6:19 PM   
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As a member of the great unwashed, I'd like to repeat what I hear frequently about feminists. They're a prissy little girl's club out to make the world revolve backward. The general public doesn't care how mad/hurt using the language as they've always done makes feminists. I would imagine that 99.99% of the population is just trying to communicate in the way that has been common for hundreds of years. It is a dreadful and HUGE imposition to try to reorder the speech patterns of all English speakers. It's like trying to force everyone to walk pigeon-toed, or eat only one type of food. People take speech for granted. They are entitled to from a sheer numbers perspective. They want to be comfortable and they aren't basically mean. It is no surprise that the vast majority of people are ignoring the silly notion that you guys or freshman is hurting half the population. If half the population felt that way there might be blood in the streets, or at least it would be a topic of conversation. Only a very few people care about this topic. Most women don't agree with the writer. Politically correct speech feels awkward and I don't know anyone who likes the shaming or scornful tactics that the thought police use to try to enforce political correctness on the vast majority pf men AND women, who frankly don't give a damn and can't be compelled to.

It is this brand of silliness that gets people like George Bush elected. People would prefer George Bush to any candidate who's tarred with the feminist agenda. Think about that. How bad do you have to be that George Bush would even be noticed? The feminists are that mind-bogglingly unpopular. And not because the patriarchy wills it so. It's just damned unattractive to listen or read feminists stating their miniscule minority positions in prose so dense it could be used to shield this country from a nuclear attack. Lets stop paying defense contractors and just all hold up feminist Prose in our national defense. No missile could penetrate it.

It is a repulsive and foolishly divisive argument. Republicans are robbing us blind and want no sex act to go unpunished, but sadly, the Democratic party has the reputation of wanting to legislate how people think and feel. That is the larger assault on our rights. Neither of them represent the vast majority and it's damned disheartening to still be having the sort of debate that got the Democrats voted out in the first place.

African-americans have been trying for the past 70 or so years to decide what they want to be called, and browbeating the country into changing names for them every 10 or 15 years. I have been through colored, negro, black, and African American. It makes them seem weak. They don't have any real connection to Africa after a couple of hundred years. They're Americans with a darker skin color who don't seem to know what they want and all most of us want it for them to settle on one term that gives no offense so that we can give no offense. I refuse to do that for women and I am one. An annoyed one.

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origin of calling females "chick"
Posted by: whitsettk on Mar 22, 2007 7:50 PM   
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Hi--
I teach high school sociology in Cincinnati. My students, both male and female, love to use the word "chick" or "chicks". I vaguely remember talking about this in a college class about the origin of the word to describe girls in a derogatory manner. The discussion in my high school class had various ideas on the origin. One of my students said that her father told her it was originally used by pedophiles to describe young girls legs that were not old enough to shave. A male student said he heard that the reason was because when women are performing fellatio (he said sucking a "cock") that their heads move back and forth like a chicken. I was amazed that they would voice these theories and still use the word. Can you help us out? Can you send us in the right direction to find the answer?

I thank you in advance for taking the time to give us a response.


whitsettk@wyomingcityschools.org

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Everything matters . . .
Posted by: keres on Mar 12, 2007 1:37 AM   
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especially language.

There are things for which there are no ready words, things which can only be talked around or hinted at, or for which the "barrowed" words feel awkward or carry no legitimacy. As a woman with a female partner, I have no word for my "significant other": lover, partner, spouse - none of them carry the weight or legitimacy of "wife". This is not a simple omission, nor is it without real consequences.

In Scaldic the the word "man" meant woman. Man's close linguistic kin are the feminine manna, moon, mama, and the old english minnie, whose troubadors, the Minnie Singers, sang about their love for the feminine, both earthly and divine. The corresponding Scaldic word for man was were, which survives in werewolf (manwolf). I can only speculate that the word man was too powerfull to be subjugated along with actual females. Such is the power of words. What cannot be destroyed, can however, be appropriated, twisted, and forced to lie about its very meaning.

Goddess was overthrown by God, woman's name became man's, all that was female and exalted was stolen by men, and reshaped in their own image.

In the begining was the Word.

Everything matters, especially language.

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» RE: Everything matters . . . Posted by: CriminallySane
» aww man Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: aww man Posted by: radact
» RE: aww man Posted by: psychochurch

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It's a matter of triage
Posted by: ISlamIslam on Mar 12, 2007 3:39 AM   
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When Muslim women, including those in the U.S., are no longer compelled, either by family members or by tacit pressure within their communities, to wear bags over their heads in public and be treated like domestic livestock, when women throughout the world are no longer physically mutilated or routinely subjected to rape -- then I'll turn my attention to such trivia as whether someone innocuously uses a phrase that is a carryover from an earlier era.

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» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: EagleMB
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» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's a matter of triage Posted by: ISlamIslam
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Hell Yeah Y'all
Posted by: hippychik on Mar 12, 2007 4:14 AM   
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I'm glad that the South shows more progressiveness in this area. At least we got that going for us.

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» Bravo! Posted by: Boomerang

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Not bad for a PC article. Kind of interesting.
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 12, 2007 4:37 AM   
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I think I resist PC for free speech reasons. I feel like Big Brother is always on us about something. Making us change more words is one more thing. It kind of sanitizes our culture.

If they make us change words, they should test them to make sure they flow with the language, and don't sound clumsy. "People of Color", and "Mentally Challenged" sound awkward, patronizing, politically-motivated, and holier-than-thou.

For example, I don't mind using black instead of negro. A nice, simple, one syllable word.

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well, they are not sticks and stones...
Posted by: ktm on Mar 12, 2007 5:31 AM   
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but i am kind of split with my opinion on this... on one side of the table i agree that words reinforce a stereotype and an leave an impression of male dominace in our society but on the other, i think some are so ingrained that they have lost thier meaning.

all of our words lose meaning as they are used over and over again. and i think to try to fight against some of them is really useless.. i admit that i have nothing other than a surface level knowledge of word orgins, but i would hazard a guess that many of the commn terms we use today are derived from a plethora of unpleasant things. for instance (and yes, I KNOW that this is a contested term with no solid proof either way so please save your comments ripping me apart for some other point) some scholars believe that the term 'picnic' used to be a common term for a lyching.

the difference between 'you guys' and 'cunt' is that people do not mean to be sexist when they use the term 'you guys'. (and yes also, i UNDERSTAND that is why the author is arguing they are so harmful, but i disagree)... cunt is meant to hurt and to maim and to be insulting... why not concntrate on the terms with power? why not go for them instead of fighting a losing battle against 'you guys'?

i would prefer to focus on terms like 'slut' and 'whore' and 'cunt'... words that still make us cringe when we hear them. we should be taking these words back. we should be asking questions like, why is the accusation of multiple sexual partners an insult? why is calling me a synonym for vagina hurtful?

these terms should not be as powerful as they are. and we give them power when we are afraid to talk about them and use them directly rather than saying 'the c word'. we should be taking these words back, and turning thier negative meaning into powerfully positive.

i did a little personal experiment with the word 'cunt' during my senior year in college. i made it a point to say the word casually in every class i was registered for. the reactions i got ranged from slightly shocked to horrified. that reaction is powerful, we should be harnessing that and finding out how to use it to our advantage, not screaming in vain everytime someone says 'mankind'.

i guess i just think we should fight something we have a chance against, that is meant to hurt, rather than focusing our energy on terms that have lost thier meaning and thier power.

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Hey guys
Posted by: gjames on Mar 12, 2007 6:15 AM   
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Heh, sorry. Well not really. Why not take ownership of these things...like, "real guys have vaginas" and "pregnant dudes have more fun," - whatever really.

Words like dude and guy aren't intrinsically patriarchal and exclusive, though they may be that incidentally. But also depending on the incident, they may not be - these kinds of words are neutral enough that you can use them however you'd like - perhaps poking fun at exclusion by altering the standard uses. When it comes to words like dude and guy, all right, sure, they can part of exclusion, but not certainly, and if they are, so minimally that a lighthearted approach is more appropriate than dogmatic seriousness. In my opinion.

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» RE: Hey guys Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Hey guys Posted by: hellofriends

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Sorry But I've Got Bigger Issues To Deal With
Posted by: Nez46 on Mar 12, 2007 6:45 AM   
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Good grief, we can barely get kids in public schools to read (and forget about math), a fascist madman is bringing the world to the brink of disaster, our economy is tanking, our political system is bought and paid for, our news outlets are propaganda outlets, our environment is disintegrating and you want me to do what - stop saying "you guys"?

Give me a break.

Why not spend some time on some of the more pressing issues before trying to correct a problem that arises in large part because of a lack of decent education in this country?
Good thing i didn't take your course as an undergrad-i doubt you'd have passed me.

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Not Questioning Gendered Language Demonstrates Its Power
Posted by: pdxstudent on Mar 12, 2007 6:47 AM   
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"the difference between 'you guys' and 'cunt' is that people do not mean to be sexist when they use the term 'you guys'. (and yes also, i UNDERSTAND that is why the author is arguing they are so harmful, but i disagree)... cunt is meant to hurt and to maim and to be insulting... why not concntrate on the terms with power? why not go for them instead of fighting a losing battle against 'you guys'?"

The fact that people, yourself included, are so inclined NOT to question why and how and if we use gendered language is a demonstration of its power. There is far more telling of the investment people have in an issue when they want to avoid it, dispell it, dismiss it, or otherwise take it off the table and not take it seriously.

I mean, consider the difference between "cunt" and "vagina." Which one do you think is, as a term refering to the reproductive anatomy of a woman, sexist? Most certainly the latter! "Vagina" literally means "sheath," as in a sheath for the penis. "Cunt," on the other hand, is a term that originated, and for some time continued to mean the female reproductive organ. You make a point about focusing on these terms, but I think you don't go far enough. The more important question, the one relevant to this article, isn't "why is calling me a synonym for vagina hurtful?" but "why is the term that actually refers to the anatomy of the woman (cunt), and not its (sub-ordinate) function in relation to men (vagina), seen as offensive, while the truly sexist term passes unquestioningly as medical terminology?" Invisable power is power par excellance. Gendered language is just one of many examples of how invisable power works.

I think people get hung up on the PC issue because it's many times implamented ineffectively. The notion of changing gendered or racist, or even capitalist or imperialist, language has less to do with the language as such than people are made to believe. PC language comes across as this neo-Orwellian NewSpeak kind of program to fry our brains into not questioning power, while the funny thing is that language as it is, from the PC stance, already performs this function. Changing gendered language is about changing the conditions in society that make gendered language a viable, sensible, unquestionable option. It's not that language wholly constitutes reality, or that reality is wholly and simply reflected in language, but that there is an obvious exchange between these two extremes. Changing gendered language is about entering this feed-back loop by way of historically transparent practices of language. Changing the objectification of women necessarily means making it possible to conceive and articulate women in our language in unobjectified terms.

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this issue is more complicated than that
Posted by: Jesse on Mar 12, 2007 6:50 AM   
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"Male based" generics are not always that. The issue I take with people coming down on them is that they aren't always a reflection on values of the kind Kleinman speaks of.

For example, the word "Manning" as in "Manned" could come from the word for man, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest it may also be related to the latin root for "Hand" which is "Man- " and from which we get words like manual and manipulate. (If you know Spanish, think of "Mano," or the French "main")

Second, the words "man" and "woman" are Germanic and the old line in the Bible that the latter is derived from the former is simply wrong. (There's a part in Genesis where they say "wo-man" is derived from "man" but this is a complete and utter mangling of Hebrew. I'd be very interested to know how it plays in French or Chinese Bibles, since it seems unique to KJV and Gideons, but I digress).

That said, her hypothesis is only partially flawed (Flamers take note, read carefully please) because Kleinman is correct that in English the "neutral" pronouns tend to be "male" but this may have less to do with values and more to do with linguistic evolution that is only partly related.

For instance, in Spanish or French (in fact, Romance languages generally as far as I know) the neutral pronoun is "ses" or "se" or a variation thereof, which hasn't got a particular association with either sex as far as I can tell. Now, France and Spain share a culture that is pretty broadly similar to that of English speaking US and UK, but I wouldn't go on about sexist terms in either language based on that, and this whole discussion I think would be different if you were referencing either language here.

Kleinman is quite correct that words like "policeman" and such can reflect underlying assumptions, but again it isn't clear to me that they necessarily do. While it is interesting to reflect on the differing baggage of saying "Chairwoman" to a male in the position, I don't know that that necessarily says anything about a sexist culture per se.

I mean, the word, "Doctor" is a "masculine" noun (this is true in its German usage and Romance incarnations) but it doesn't carry the same baggage as police(man). In fact, doctor becomes feminine in French if you are referencing an eye doctor.

Note too that masculine and feminine (and neuter if you speak Latin or Russian) constructions have zero to do with the meaning of a noun itself--they are just grammitical placeholders. For example, "pen" and "pencil" are feminine and masculine respectively, (in French).

This relates to English because a good chunk of the constructions we use are remnants of when English did have genders like German does now. Much of that has been lost (we don't have strong and weak verbs, for instance, nor morphological changes in case for the most part). But the old habits still remain, and it may have to do with stuff that wasn't directly related to women's position in society. After all, ships are still feminine in English, even though few women were historically sailors. That would mean to me that there could be other reasons for that.

Kleinman seems to be working from the old Safir-Whorf hypothesis, which for those who didn't suffer through linguistics 101 is the idea that the words in a language define what one can express and how one does so. Thus far the hypothesis remains just that, because the research on the subject (and someone correct me if I am way out of date) I was familiar with points in many directions, and kind of depends on where you start your definitions of "express" and "understand."

But all this is to say that the way we process stuff is related to the words we use, but it isn't determined entirely by them, I don't think.

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» I was going to make a comment Posted by: Boomerang

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Strictly speaking...
Posted by: gjames on Mar 12, 2007 6:56 AM   
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From a Foucauldian perspective of power, talking about why terms like 'you guys' are male-normative demonstrates/sustains the power it seeks to criticize.

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» RE: Strictly speaking... Posted by: pdxstudent

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hobby horse
Posted by: karyse on Mar 12, 2007 6:55 AM   
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It never ceases to amaze me that powerful people (people with power) seem unaffected by terms that are meant to deride, and in fact, they often adopt them as positive terms, while others never manage to do so.

Ditto-head, an origianlly derogatory way to reference Rush Limbaugh listeners was quickly adopted by them, and they often use "mega-dittos, Rush" as a salutation.

Yankee, or Yank, an attempt at derision, failed.

Whitey, or Honkey, failed to engender any long term problem for whites.

Redneck, has been completely adopted as a positive by most rednecks.

I often hear folks who live in trailers (myself included) reference themselves as trailer-trash, without batting an eye, and "white trash with money" was recently produced as an album.

As to Bitch, as near as I can figure, the goddess Hecate, commonly associtated with she-dogs, and a sign of her approach was barking dogs, making the term not one of derision, so much as one of power. When someone calls me a bitch, I laugh and say, "thanks," because the speaker is granting me a kind of power over them. And I'm not kidding; it hurts me not at all.

Sorry folks, but "you guys" (youse guys in NY) is the replacement for gurle (girl now) which used to mean youth of any gender. I'll take "you guys" over girl, any time.

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hobby horse cont
Posted by: karyse on Mar 12, 2007 7:01 AM   
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Oh and I forgot, the term "guy" was originally one of derision.

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» RE: hobby horse cont Posted by: DaBear
» RE: hobby horse cont Posted by: karyse

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Alternatives
Posted by: ilene on Mar 12, 2007 7:14 AM   
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Sexist language may matter, but what are some acceptable linguistic alternatives? To subsitute woman for man is just as sexist and yet what other suggestions are being made? Is there some term that can be used instead of "you guys"?

To continue to be told how language is sexist is not saying much unless the discussion moves into the arena of alternatives. Until this discussion takes place, then folks such as Ms. Kleiman will continue to be told to tackle "important" women's issues.

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» RE: Alternatives Posted by: radact
» RE: Alternatives Posted by: Bbear41

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It might seem trivial, but ...
Posted by: elderwoman.org on Mar 12, 2007 7:33 AM   
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... this is not a trivial thing, I assure you. It's important, and if you follow the author's reasoning carefully, surely you can see why.

She is certainly not implying that every time anyone uses masculine words as generics they are being deliberately sexist. 99.9 percent of the time they are not. Hell, I've said 'you guys' to a mixed group myself before now. It is so much part of the lingo nowadays (even though it's only been around for a couple of decades as far as I can recall) that it actually feels generic by now.

And please let's not squabble about etymology. That's a red herring.

The whole point of a campaign like this is to raise consciousness. And it is a very good method for doing just that, as those of us know who are old enough to remember the days when 'racism' was a newly-minted word.

It works like this: when a certain word or phrase is designated as sexist, racist, ageist or whatever, then every time we find ourselves using it or hearing others use it we are reminded of the issues it represents. We are reminded that one sector of society is failing to accord respect to another sector, whether it be women, Jewish people, Muslims, old people, blacks, whites or whatever.

The more often we are reminded of the issues, the closer to the surface of our minds those issues come, until in the end we are constantly aware of them. We remind other people -- tactfully if we can -- that these words and phrases are no longer OK with us. Sometimes they scoff. But it means that conversations about the issues happen more and more. This is how the consciousness of the whole society is gradually raised. And when the consciousness of society is raised to a high enough level, that is when changes start to happen.

So yes, this might seem trivial. But it is not. When you weed a garden, you don't just pull out the really big weeds. You pull them all out, even the tiny ones. Even the tiny ones are important. It's all one, big project and it's about making the world a better, fairer place.

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The author is correct. We need to ensure we properly use language
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Mar 12, 2007 8:00 AM   
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the weird, grammatically incorrect usuage of words like "actor" to refer to a female or "bartender" to refer to a female is incorrect and sexist. We should always use proper, gender-specific words:
Actress- not actor
Bartendress- not bartender
Waitress- not waiter or server
Stewardess- not flight attendent
Executrix- not executor
and so on. Its important to be correct and not sexist.

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» Prefer genderless references Posted by: aouie01

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Hey Guys!
Posted by: Tyrus95 on Mar 12, 2007 8:02 AM   
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I always thought the use of "guys" to include women was a way of shifting the meaning of "guys" away from referring exclusively to men.

In changing sexist language, you either change the word, or you change what the existing word defines? What do you think?

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» RE: Hey Guys! Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Hey Guys! Posted by: MartianBachelor

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busted again
Posted by: freeda'all on Mar 12, 2007 8:04 AM   
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Didn't alternet JUSTdo an article on 'you guys' already? I'll admit this one has a lot more substance to it than the other but there are far more serious & urgent matters in the lives and worlds of women to write about than this.

Oh hey, I know, how about the story about the Vancouver Rape Relief shelter having just won the right to determine
who a 'woman' is for the sake of providing peer counselling to battered & raped women. This went all the way to the Canadian Supreme Court and took ten years to settle but dammit yes, now women can have a say in who & what a woman is, at least for the sake of the VRR shelter.

Here you have a 'former' man, now 'woman' taking the volunteer shelter to court for years and costing the shelter over $100,000 in legal fees just because this person wanted the volunteer position as a way to 'validate her womanhood.' Here you have the story of a man who sought to interject himself into the lives of women in a time of crisis simply because he wanted to and thought he had the right to. Of course, since the law and medicine now can make 'women' PDQ with surgery & drugs women should be happy to have men like Kimberly Nixon coming in and telling them how to run things. After all he comes with a buttload of experience & privilege and knows all about what women want and need, right?

Men still have and now have even more so, the legal right to interject themselves into the lives of women not known to them in times and places as they see fit to. Women have had no say nor were ever asked for their imput into this and men want to make sure that women stay stifled for it.

Now there's a substance in language & identity issue worth writing about in that the transexual/transgender/genderqueer crowd is fighting with women over who gets the 'right' to say who 'is' a woman. Of course the women, being women, should again just take a backseat to the men, now 'women', who have always known anyway what's best for us silly little hotheads anyway.

But oh wait, that would mean that queers aren't the happy little live-and-let-live pappys that alternet wants to write about and that also means that women do have a real issue with the substance and use/misuse of language by men who seek to control our lives.

Wow, a real there's a real story now.

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Okay, okay, let's just go back to "YOU GIRLS"!
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Mar 12, 2007 8:08 AM   
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Happy now?

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» No that won't do... Posted by: marywi
» RE: No that won't do... Posted by: animalleaderisgreat

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female-based generics
Posted by: Benjaminsjw on Mar 12, 2007 8:11 AM   
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And can you think of one, just one, example of a female-based generic?

Well, I don't want to be a smartass, but what about "midwife"?
At least here in Holland, any obstetrician, be they male or female, can be referred to as a midwife. (of course, the dutch word is "vroedvrouw", but that is a female-based word as well.)

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» RE: female-based generics Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: female-based generics Posted by: marywi
» herstory Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: herstory Posted by: Benjaminsjw
» Fatherland/Motherland Posted by: moflard

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hey girlfriend
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 8:20 AM   
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i wonder why the south developed y'all.

Mankind, men this and men that is kindof stupid and i think it's changing a bit. it sort of seems like grandiose 19th century continental philosophy-speak to hear stuff like that.

i really have some problems, however, having problems with "you guys."

"Guy" originally came from the funny British history of Guy Fawkes. "guy" then somehow took on the connotation to mean "male," but in every dictionary i looked in "guys" (plural) is defined as a person of either gender. i have enough tolerance to suffer the ostensible injustice of this etymology.

i agree that the relationship between language and gender is worth discussing, but there seems to be bigger sticks and stones out there than "you guys." maybe i'll change my mind later.

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» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: hey girlfriend Posted by: radact

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The correct web address from the article
Posted by: radact on Mar 12, 2007 8:27 AM   
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hey y'all,

the article had the web address wrong for "you guys" cards. you can find them here:

youall2.freeservers.com

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No Resistance Too Big nor Too Small
Posted by: pdxstudent on Mar 12, 2007 8:29 AM   
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"Didn't alternet JUSTdo an article on 'you guys' already? I'll admit this one has a lot more substance to it than the other but there are far more serious & urgent matters in the lives and worlds of women to write about than this."

I can't help but wonder why people persist in the belief that in order to resist power you have to do it in the way power dictates. I can understand being miffed over a repeat article, but there's no basis for more or less important ideological resistance: it all matters.

Someone else brought up Foucault and his ideas about Power earlier. Power for Foucault was an immanently pervasive structure in our lives; it was, as he put it, capillary. Power functions at the smallest levels of our daily lives, and is in fact constituted in just that way. The kind of resistance to (patriarchal) power that this article suggests is perfectly in line with this observation. Those who brush it aside, or even get kind of offended, saying it's too small an issue or that there are more important feminist issues, are not as concerned with resisting power as much as conforming to it. Excluding anything from critique, including, if not especially the habits of everyday life, is a sign of power. If (patriarchal) power is to be resisted, it must be done down to the everyday experience of language.

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orwell called it newspeak
Posted by: gerdhansel on Mar 12, 2007 8:40 AM   
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Using language to manipulate people, what a novel concept.

In Orwell's 1984, Big Brother forced his population to use Newspeak because he thought this would control their minds. In his secret thoughts, Winston Smith called it "duck-speak."

Winston lived in a world of forbidden words and expression, watched over by the secret "thought police." But people still needed their Three-Minutes-Hate to vent the secret thoughts that were boiling inside.

When I read an article like this one, I hear the voice of the thought police loud and clear: we know what's best for you, we want to control your speech, we want to control your thoughts, we want to enslave you.

I get so very tired of having to watch every single word I say, and every gesture I make. It's enough to make you paranoid.

But as the Germans say, die gedanken sind frei, my thoughts are free. What's inside my head belongs to me until it comes out my mouth.

Think you can control the baser human impulses by playing language police-person? You'll only drive those impulses deeper.

The military does this to people all the time. Drill sergeant to private: "Are you angey, maggot? What is your major malfunction? Is there something you want to say to me? I didn't think so!"

The private swallows his anger because the drill sergeant has power over him, and then gets into a fight the next time he goes drinking in the local club. All that swallowed anger has a way of coming back up later on.

These languge police want to throw all of us into their own version of basic training, the permanent kind. Language slavery, with no three-minutes hate.

Big Brother is quacking at you.

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Language is political!
Posted by: marywi on Mar 12, 2007 8:43 AM   
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I also want to point out that it makes a difference if we say things like "The woman was raped." versus "A man raped the woman."

We get much more specific and accurate with the second sentence using active voice.

Another example is when we reify institutions and forget the human agency behind them. "The university did not take measures to prevent sexual assault on campus." Are we talking about the walls of the university? The walls? The sidewalk? The library books? The classrooms? The dorms?
OR are we talking about administrators, provosts, deans and chancellors, and members of the BOT?

It makes a big difference.

And in this same spirit, when we say "you guys" and other sexist phrases, we tend to picture male silhouettes. Sociologist Laurel Richardson discussed this in her work "Gender Stereotyping in the English Language." So if we usually picture men when we hear these phrases, we're most likely only going to think about male interests.

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» RE: Language is political! Posted by: MartianBachelor

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What?
Posted by: VoxPopuli on Mar 12, 2007 8:49 AM   
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Growing up male in the so-called "male-dominated" society, I was witness to so much contradiction to this idea. First of all, this article is nothing more than whining for more power to be "given" than "earned". My father cowed to my mother's wishes, without a grumble, but he also was the breadwinner of the family, same with EVERY friend's family I knew. Of course my mother had the choice to work, or not, and housework was performed by myself and my siblings. The implication that sex in marriage is unpaid compulsory work for a woman is bullshit, too. People pay for an education at a public university and get this? Gimme a break. As a BOY in school, I participated in sports, and we were constantly called "girl". Did I whine and cry and try some passive-aggressive crap? NO! I tried harder and succeeded. If women have troubles with such trivial terminology as "you guys", maybe they should demonstrate without question the constitution of themselves that makes them MORE than a guy ( of course, this would not be very difficult, for women are more than men on many levels, and vice versa ). Social change without understanding is fascism. I love strong women who are confident in who they are, I loathe any weakling ( any gender ) that BEGS for social change for an agenda they believe but do not understand.

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I hate "ladies"
Posted by: judiths1_az on Mar 12, 2007 8:55 AM   
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As I've aged it seems to me that restaurants are determined to call me and my friends "ladies". I hear it not once or twice during a meal but over and over again as often as the person comes to my table. I don't hear the same denoting for men. It seems to me that men are regular people and don't need to be defined. Well, I want the same consideration. I don't want to be defined either and I often ask servers to stop saying "ladies". Some them stop it. I compliment those who don't do it.

As a much younger woman I'd tell some guy trying to shake hands with the men and kiss the ladies to kiss my husband before he kisses me. They never wanted to do that.

At age 63 this is an argument which will continue after my death.

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» RE: I hate "ladies" Posted by: Mamarianne

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Look where it was printed
Posted by: marywi on Mar 12, 2007 8:57 AM   
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The fact that a rape crisis center decided to print it in their newsletter is telling.

This issue is connected to the larger oppression of women. Sexist language is connected to sexual violence is connected to reproductive rights is connected to the "second shift" is connected to the devaluation of women's work....

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» Good point, female victimization = power Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Good point, male entitlment = power Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey
» RE: Good point, male entitlment = power Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey

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Golly, this sure is an intelligent issue
Posted by: H_H on Mar 12, 2007 8:57 AM   
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I wish English was a gender-neutral language that didn't have hurtful words like "guys"

Why, just look at Persian- it's been gender-neutral since the middle ages. If you want to see a wonderful gender utopia, go to Iran. There are lots of women in positions of power in that country, right? Lots of female imams in the holy city of Qom, yes?

All we need to do to build heaven on earth is make sure that we don't use words that could offend the most hypersensitive woman within earshot.

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I hate "ladies"
Posted by: judiths1_az on Mar 12, 2007 9:04 AM   
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As I've aged it seems to me that restaurants are determined to call me and my friends "ladies". I hear it not once or twice during a meal but over and over again as often as the person comes to my table. I don't hear the same denoting for men. It seems to me that men are regular people and don't need to be defined. Well, I want the same consideration. I don't want to be defined either and I often ask servers to stop saying "ladies". Some them stop it. I compliment those who don't do it.

Dr. Gross in her book, "Buddhism After Patriarchy" says: "Feminism also is serious about words, often to the exasperation of those who cannot see the subtle link between language and consciousness...". This idea helps me with this issue.

If we "just say nothing" nothing will change.

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» RE: I hate "ladies" Posted by: hellofriends

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the 'root' of this whole problem
Posted by: OneAcre2012 on Mar 12, 2007 9:04 AM   
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Man...Woman...hmmm...doesn't it look like the one word is derived from the other? What we need is a word for "woman" that has nothing to do with "man" and I don't mean by just changing the "a" to a "y." And to do this, we're all going to have to go back in time to the genesis of the English language and stop this injustice. Or we could just speak Spanish. I mean, hombre and mujer look nothing alike on paper, though I'm not a linguistic scholar to the point where I could prove that mujer doesn't have some unfortunate origin...just remember, most communication is non-verbal. Language is just another of our institutions whose validity condenses and evaporates only at our behest.

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I hate "ladies"
Posted by: judiths1_az on Mar 12, 2007 9:06 AM   
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As I've aged it seems to me that restaurants are determined to call me and my friends "ladies". I hear it not once or twice during a meal but over and over again as often as the person comes to my table. I don't hear the same denoting for men. It seems to me that men are regular people and don't need to be defined. Well, I want the same consideration. I don't want to be defined either and I often ask servers to stop saying "ladies". Some of them stop it. I compliment those who don't do it.

Dr. Gross in her book, "Buddhism After Patriarchy" says: "Feminism also is serious about words, often to the exasperation of those who cannot see the subtle link between language and consciousness...". This idea helps me with this issue.

If we "just say nothing" nothing will change.

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» RE: I hate "ladies" Posted by: pomes

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interesting
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 9:23 AM   
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"Man" originally meant all of humankind, with no gendered implications whatsoever. of course it's changed since then. but at first it meant Hand, because humans were seen as different from animals because we had hands. wtf.

In old english "Man" was still gender neutral and "wer" and "wyf" were used to refer to men and women, respectively.

The controversy begins in middle english. as wikipedia explains:

In Middle English man displaced wer as term for "male human", whilst wyfman (which eventually evolved into woman) was retained for "female human". ("Wyf" also evolved into the word "wife".) "Man" does continue to carry its original sense of "Human" however, resulting in an asymmetry sometimes criticized as sexist.

i'm actually kindof confused about this, maybe someone could help me out. if "Man" still meant human, why would it be sexist to say werman and wyfman? doesn't this just mean male human (from wer + man) and female human (wyf + man)?

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A fine argument made
Posted by: DaBear on Mar 12, 2007 9:27 AM   
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As a male (read: intrinsically evil-hah!) I am still left with nothing positive I can work with from this analysis other than, if we are strangers, there's not much I can do. I wonder if this is really a "white" problem... whites have this habit of demanding that others be mind-readers, that we're entitled to not have to communicate our needs to others nor to inquire of others what their needs might be, and, simultaneously, we are entitled to criticize, presume and assume volumes about people we don't bother to get to know.

My mate, I know very well. If I were to refer to her as a guy or a "lady" or a "ma'am" I will be struck with an open or closed hand, or at minimum receive some sort of verbal reproach. But by and large, if someone is a stranger and refers to her in a group as "you guys" she doesn't notice and it takes nothing from her. OTOH, I have a cousin who would take greast umbrage with such a referent, so with her, I don't use "you guys." Beyond that, it seems a bit absurd to presume with total strangers since I have, as a male, a 99.999% chance of getting ANY referent wrong; not using the referent someone else may prefer simply because I don't know them yet.

I agree words are indeed important, so important that words like "lie" and "liar" need to be used when people in authority deserve them. And that seems a bit more important, just to me.

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» RE: A fine argument made Posted by: marywi
» Lying in wait for The Guy to make a mistake! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Lying in wait for The Guy to make a mistake! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: A fine argument made Posted by: pomes

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Calling men "boys"
Posted by: anniedine on Mar 12, 2007 9:32 AM   
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This whole language thing is both an advanced topic (hence the continued confusion for people who don't give any of this much deep thought – a group well represented in the comment postings) and something very simple (you can easily understand it by transposing "white" with "man").

There's a whole demographic of people who insist on referring to grown women as "girls" (including themselves). Here's another simple method for waking yourself up. Spend one day calling every man you encounter, or speak of in the abstract, "boy" and see the reactions you get. Be very careful, though, when doing this with people who are not white (see any correlation in the degrading terms?).

I have no doubt that this silly practice of calling women "girls" will die out on its own when those "girls" get sick of being treated just like the word they use to refer to themselves.

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let's just speak fucking gibberish
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 9:36 AM   
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nini tillan vangandian? allono, til moni lavandan, a len mill blien a fath.

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We went through this in the 80s
Posted by: dirkster42 on Mar 12, 2007 9:46 AM   
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And the backlash seems enormous. It seems to me that there were a lot of good points about inclusive language that got lost in taking it overboard and getting hung up on getting vocabulary just perfect, instead of looking at contexts and processes. The good points got lost in peoples' inability be anything close to relaxed about it. A couple of reasons why I think there are some good points to these arguments, though:

One of my teachers in seminary made a point to just use hymns that didn't contain male imagery for God when she preached in churches. She'd have women coming up to her afterwards, saying, "Church felt different today, I can't put my finger on it, but it was more like home than ever before." My teacher was very conscious of the way everyday life and religious symbols make women feel like outsiders. She just changed a few words, and found that women felt more comfortable in their own skins, which gave them energy to pursue everything else in their lives with more gusto.

The feminist biblical scholar Elisabeth Shussler Fiorenza started using the word wo/men to refer to women and men who are oppressed by class or race, to make men go through the same "checking process" of asking "am I included or not?" After reading a few pages, I really got the issue. This is the book where she did that.

Also, inclusive-language lectionaries and Bibles started being published in the '80s and 90s. New Testament and Psalms. Not calling God "Father," really freaked some people out, but in several liberal congregations, the inclusive language became standard.

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at least know something about language...
Posted by: kiel on Mar 12, 2007 9:56 AM   
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The author states: "It's no accident that 'man' is the anchor in our language and "woman" is not."

Right, but for all the wrong reasons.

As "interesting" stated earlier, "man" was once the term for all people (human being). "Woman" was "female human". "Gumma" was the word for "male person" (replaced later by werman). We still have one vestige of "gumma" -- groom, in bridegroom.

The forms we have today took centuries of linguistic change to come about, and the appearance of "man" in so many forms is NOT accidental--they are derived from a term meaning human or all people. Although not accidental, this language change does not seem to be pernicious. The fact that these terms have been re-interpreted and re-cast politically as gender specific, by both those who would like to subjugate women and by those who would like to point out that English just isn't fair to women is not only NOT accidental, but also pernicious -- in both cases this reinterpretation and preoccupation seems to be a symptom of a socio-political agenda.

This is understandable: Language is power.

But if one wants to fight the power, at least know something about language.

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You Won't Find "Freshwhite" in Any Dictionary
Posted by: scot on Mar 12, 2007 10:24 AM   
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Unlike "freshman." That must mean black people haven't had nearly as much trouble with white people as women have had with men (at least in English-speaking countries)--right? No, the ridiculous conclusion only follows from a very poor argument. Our mother tongue not being the problem, superstitious word-magic cannot be the solution.

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» I think it's a new toothpaste Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» No but they edited it.... Posted by: moflard
» you straighties, you ablebodies Posted by: kellybelly

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Exactly the type of PC trivia which earns feminists derision
Posted by: janvdb on Mar 12, 2007 10:25 AM   
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All modern dictionaries define "chairman" and "a PERSON who chairs," so get a grip.

We are never going to change the use of "-man" to indicate "a person who --" to "-person" to mean the same thing because most reasonable people realize that this is unnecessary. The meaning has already been expanded to include women.

Does anyone actually think that a "postman" is necessary a man, and not a woman? Of course not. The definition of "postman" has been expanded to include women.

"Postperson?" Are you serious? That is ridiculous and no one is going to pick it up. Just not going to happen.

Same thing with using "his" to mean "his/hers." Using "his or hers" every time is unnecessary. Everyone realizes what you are saying. "Each student should bring his book." Yeah, the girls should bring their books, too.

People understand that. As long as meaning passes, you will not succeed in your goal of getting people to change their habits of speaking, so why set an impossible goal?

An appropriate activity for those who are concerned about this sort of thing would be to pressure dictionaries to include a third or fourth definition of "his" to mean "his or hers."

As far as trying to get busy, active people with real lives to take the time to fret about this type of minutea, good luck. It's a waste of time and makes feminists look petty.

Get a life. Men have been dominant for a long time and that has affected our language. Trying to get people to change these daily usages is an impossible task, an unnecessary task, and useless task.

Just forget about it. Get over it.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» USPS is still unenlightened Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» And the answer is... Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: And the answer is... Posted by: radact

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One thing to keep in mind
Posted by: marywi on Mar 12, 2007 10:29 AM   
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The last article on alternet that addressed sexist language like "you guys" had 298 comments the last time I checked. Most of them, unfortunately, were vehement rejections to the project of eliminating sexist language. Some were very long and some even contained profanity.

If this is just a trivial and unimportant issue, why all the long, harsh, and ourtraged responses to it? If this issue is as trivial as many people say it is, then why not just change our vocabularies and not make a big deal out of it??

I think people realize (after being pointed out to them) that language is something so taken-for-granted and so 'everyday' that if we're told it actually reflects AND reinforces sexism, it bothers us. We realize that if even our language is oppressive, we must have a lot of work to do. And we DO have a lot of work to do. So let's please make our language more inclusive and keeping fighting sexism everywhere :)

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general terms of abuse
Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 12, 2007 10:30 AM   
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It is interesting to note the sort of abusive terms men typically use - most of them have to do with sex acts and almost all of them insinuate that sex is some sort of sub/dom abusive thing.

I almost never hear women doing that.

I think "cocksucker" and the like are far more insidious and damaging than something like "you guys" (which I don't use either)

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» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: marywi
» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: radact
» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: John Wilbur
» RE: general terms of abuse Posted by: profoflitandtrout
» How about PRICK? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Maybe a Female PRICK Hall of Fame? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Hey, you JERK!! Posted by: MartianBachelor

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Confusing sexism with gendered language
Posted by: CJC on Mar 12, 2007 10:47 AM   
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Russia is the Motherland, Germany is das Vaterland, and France is la patrie. I don't know what the language gender is in Russian, but das Vaterland is linguistically neuter (Land is neuter) and la patrie - derived from Latin pater (father) is linguistically feminine. Are we clear yet?

Many, even most?, Indo-European languages have linguistic gender that is separate from sex. German has die Frau but das Fraulein, because the endings -lein and -chen are always neuter.

In English we have all this trouble with the ending -man, which my dictionary says originally did not necessarily refer only to males. Otherwise, what sense can we make of the word 'woman'?

A non-Indo-European language I know, Turkish, makes no pronomial distinction in the singular, just as "they" in English does not indicate gender. They don't have to tie themselves in knots as in "A student who wants to apply for the fall semester must submit his/her application...."
This linguistic agnosticism hardly ensures that Turkish society is blessedly free of sexism.

While it's true that language can be used powerfully to convey obvious and subtle messages it does not follow that every gendered expression like "You guys" or "freshman" disadvantages women (oops "..men").

What offends me more in common speech is men talking about "We" as though "we" are all male. I notice it, for example, with Stephen Colbert (whose "Report" I watch faithfully) who talks about all the time about "balls" and "cojones." It's funny, of course, but often he really is talking about having "courage" or "spine" or "guts." Half his audience can never have "balls" but we can all have "guts."
This kind of language has two effects - one is to exclude half of us from "we" and the other is to suggest that only men can be taken seriously.

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I am a 'guy'
Posted by: browsercat on Mar 12, 2007 11:16 AM   
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I've been in three non-traditional, male-dominated, college-level training programs in which I was the only woman, and my career is traditionally male. My DH is nothing but supportive and encouraging of me in my chosen field.

I have nothing against being called a 'guy' when the term is used in reference to a group of people because unlike other languages in which there are genderless inclusive plurals, English has no term to indicate 'you-who-are-male-and-female' other than the frequently pejorative 'you people'. In order to make it easier on the instructors who are/were all male, I have made it clear that when they refer to the entire group, the use of the term 'guys' is ok. This is my choice, and I see nothing wrong with it and am not put off by its use in this context.

As a woman in a non-traditional field regularly encountering people not quite sure how to address me, whether they can swear in my presence or not, etc., I've found that a bit of humor works a damn sight better than handing out little pieces of paper to help the other person save face after a faux pas, and that people who are given the out of a bit of a laugh over it are much more likely to listen later on.

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» RE: I am a 'guy' Posted by: marywi
» RE: I am a 'guy' Posted by: hellofriends

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Let's all work on this together.
Posted by: janten on Mar 12, 2007 11:58 AM   
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Language and our use of it is very important, extremely important.

Our patterns of thought determine the patterns of our feelings and of our actions - of all of our behavior. Our repeated patterns become our habits that create and reinforce our world views and all of our assumptions and beliefs behind our world views. Almost all of this happens unconsciously and forms the basis for everything about ourselves, including our more conscious behavior. Individually, all of this essentially creates who we are in this world, our personalities. Collectively, this results in our cultural and national personalities.

The language we use is both a significant underlying formulator of our behavior and also an outer effect or result of who we are on all scales, from personal to interpersonal to international. Language is also a significant tool we can work with, on subtle and not so subtle levels, to reformulate who we are as individuals, as cultures, as nations. It's not a magic wand that will quickly cure all of our worldly problems. We've used it for years, decades, generations, forever, to get ourselves into the situations and conditions we are currently in. It will take years, decades, generations to work with language to help improve on our current conditions and situations. And we need to also work with and on a lot of other things, too. But that's no reason to belittle or ignore the significance of trying to change our use of language as a tool for positive change in the world.

One of the biggest problems we have in English (and many other languages) is the lack of gender neutral words to replace the dominant use of he, him, his and man. If we English speakers could/would only come up with good, natural, short, smoothly flowing sounds to replace these words whenever gender need not be specified, and begin consciously using them, it would begin to make a significant difference to us in our individual lives and in our world. Even for those of us who think it doesn't bother us because we don't care or because we believe we know that the use of masculine words are meant to be inclusive, such a change will begin to make a difference.

The biggest problem we face in making such language changes is that language development/evolution is a dynamic process that results from how we use it and, unfortunately, the vast majority of us seem to be very lazy about how we use language. That is the reason trying to make progress through the use of language as a tool for change will be frustratingly slow. But even if such progress will be slow, that doesn't mean it's not worth our efforts. Also, trying to fix our various world problems, large and small alike, will continue to prove more difficult than necessary if we don't also work on changing our language and our use of language. Our use of language is pervasive and therefore affects everything we try to do, just as everything we do affects our language.

Let's all work on this together.

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On the evolution of language...
Posted by: kchloevt on Mar 12, 2007 12:01 PM   
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To myself and, I imagine, other young people today, a term such as "policeman" sounds terribly old-fashioned. These have been quietly supplanted by the fair and descriptive (and not PCishly nauseating either) "police officer," "fire fighter," "postal worker," etc. The only words that don't have a gender-neutral substitute are the third-person singular he/she. Although, they are being replaced by the third person plural they/them (much to the chagrin of English teachers everywhere, I'm sure). Within the last week, I have heard the word "themself" used several times without any trace of grammatical shame. I agree with the people that say it is a waste of time to try to force the language. It will change to fit the social mores on its own eventually.

As far as the "you guys" controversy, I am just as guilty of it myself, even when referring to all-female groups of my friends. I am not sure what to think of this. I know that using "you all" or, especially, "y'all" would meet with derision in my midwestern suburb (of the "you might be a Redneck if..." variety), but no one so much as blinks at "you guys," even females. I suppose it is a reaction to the lack of distinction between the second person singular and plural (lost when we dropped "thou" from the lexicon), but I agree that in its present form, it is sexist since "guy" in the singular form most definitely refers to a male. I do hear "you people" used, but that is usually used when the speaker is trying to disassociate *themself* from the audience. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to worry about it too much since there are much more important issues in the world affecting people of both sexes. Plus, I'm too busy putting the *guys* in their place in my male-dominated field of study (mechanical engineering), lol.

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Why not embrace it?
Posted by: suprmark on Mar 12, 2007 12:18 PM   
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Instead of railing against the word 'guy', why not embrace it as a new gender neutral term? I think it's clear that something gender neutral is needed. It seems impossible to return 'man' to its neutral origins, and the opposite of guy - gal - is not regularly used anymore. 'You guys' is generally recognized as referring to both sexes and expanding that meaning to 'guy' is probably easier than thinking up gender neutral expressions for every word ending in 'man' and convincing people that 'you guys' isn't actually gender neutral. And it's just one syllable which is key. Sure 'chairguy' sounds weird at first, but it's less awkward than 'chairperson.' Language is supposed to become less, not more, formal as time passes.

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» RE: Why not embrace it? Posted by: radact
» RE: Why not embrace it? Posted by: suprmark

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youse, ye, ze, per, zir, sie, hir, zhe, hir, zes, yous, yinz
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 12:39 PM   
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any more?

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Hey you Witches!!!-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Mar 12, 2007 1:23 PM   
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In first grade (1950's) I got in trouble for refusing to say 'man' when using a sentence -where the sex of a person was unknown.
"But I am a GIRL"-I protested.
My mother was called and I was told to 'mind the teacher'.
Thus began my journey into rebellion.

So nowdays we use 'he-or she'-which is strange. I think the appeal of 'you guys' is that it is a CLASS-LESS word. I hate 'ladies', women vs girls has its own issues...gal-sounds stupid-

I always liked Comrade!

Comrades!-let us organize and overthrow the evil Bush Empire and save the Earth before SHE is poisoned to death with war and pollution!

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Misguided views.
Posted by: Vin on Mar 12, 2007 2:02 PM   
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First off, this phrase made me laugh.

“…the "third shift" (women's responsibility for intimate relationships with men)”

Are you serious? Sex is a ‘fourth’ shift? I do not believe that any sexually normal woman will compare sex to their job. You make it sound like women do not enjoy sex at all and are forced to work overtime just to please the lustful demands of her male partner. That is most definitely not the case in a healthy relationship.

Back on topic though, what would you suggest we use instead of “you guys”? I’m in charge of a group of people and they are always “you guys”, regardless of what the gender mix is. There are no acceptable alternatives though. Should I use “you guys and women”? That’s too inefficient. I could use “you people” but that can be taken as a racist comment even though it’s being used to refer to a group of people of mixed races and genders. “You guys” is the only neutral term for a group of people.

Over all though I think you have a vastly skewed image of men. Just by the way you write I can tell you look for sexism everywhere and nail yourself to the cross every chance you get. Just like a person who looks for racism everywhere, eventually you are going to create it where it never existed.

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» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: pomes
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» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: pomes
» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: Vin
» RE: Misguided views. Posted by: radact
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Take Your Seat in the Front of the Bus
Posted by: VoxPopuli on Mar 12, 2007 2:22 PM   
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And quit riding in the back. Oppression should be battled first by NOT wearing it like a badge of honor. The examples shown by the heroes of oppressed peoples' causes have consistently been of shedding the uniform of the masses and contrasting ones inner self against the percieved societal norm, thus leading others in the cause for higher truths. As in this case, "feminist" ideals lead others to cast themselves in a role of subservience to the power model, while denying the very thing to be struggled for: EQUALITY. Be you female or male ( or trans-gender ), we are all (for lack of a better word) HUMAN first and most importantly, and a HUMAN has higher regard for self than to be caught in this petty game. Begging for a place at the table is admission of feelings of unworthiness of the postion; seizing the right, priveledge, and duty to be present is much more practical and does not play into the hands of the power broker. Did the Hon. Nancy Pelosi find her position by whining and waiting to be granted permission to represent her fellow citizens? duh. Maybe we should try teaching our children to use terms like HUPERSON? We should love ourselves and each other more than our percieved oppressors hate us. The little things will keep us down in the trenches, and progress will never be gained.

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Parent Earth - not mother Earth.
Posted by: aouie01 on Mar 12, 2007 3:22 PM   
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It is a common tendency of people to ignore a problem that is slightly in favor of a presumably "oppressed" group (female humans are in the majority, and not a minority as in most other common "oppression" cases).
People who are generally conscious of avoiding needless grouping and unjustifiable attributing of characteristics or power to specific groups ignore such attribution when made to a presumably "oppressed" group. Please be more consistent in pushing for avoidance of unnecessary grouping, and unjustifiable attribution of characteristics or power.
The next time someone refers to mother Earth or "proud Hispanic heritage" raise similar concerns to what you would if you heard someone refer to the Sun as male or express pride in "Caucasian heritage".
Sincerely,
Aouie

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Genderless language modifications to "official" English
Posted by: aouie01 on Mar 12, 2007 3:27 PM   
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Many words become part of "official" English even if the number of people who use it are far fewer than the people who push for genderless references. While it is true that several different variations exist (e.g. I try to avoid pronouns altogether to stay consistent with proper "official" English even though it initially sounds odd), there is a large portion of the English speaking population that often use genderless references (unless there is a need for a gender reference). It is high time "official" English included the option.
Sincerely,
Aouie

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Sexist language sure matters!
Posted by: calalily on Mar 12, 2007 3:41 PM   
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First, let me give thanks where thanks are due: among all the sites I tour every day, Alternet is [by far] the one who posts the most articles by/about/for women [the others keep complaining that there aren't enough women authors!]

The mainstream media are of no use to us women. To them we are just a "minority" [only half the population!].

As Heather Wokusch [http://www.heatherwokusch.com/] notes in her excellent book [in the section "Mainstream Media"] I just read:
"You might be surprised to learn that:
-three companies control 25% of the daily news circulated in the whole world
-Clear Channel owns over 1,200 radio stations, or roughly one third of all radio stations in the United States
-three conglomerates (AOL, Time Warner, GE and news Corporation] own all of the US cable news network."

In the section "Women's Issues," she lists a bunch of unbelievable anti-women quotes, among which this one from the infamous Ann Coulter:
"Women --and I don't mean to limit that to the biological sense-- always become hysterical at the first sign of trouble. They have no capacity to solve problems, so instead they fret. But despite the fearful fifth columnists whiling away the war naysaying America's response, we will win this war. You just stay warm girls --the men are fixing the car." [Nov. 1st, 2001]

[Wokusch also has a series of videos posted at http://www.youtube.com/heatherwokusch.]

If we don't support our own women-friendly media and publications, what passes for media today will keep promoting their militaristic culture [militarism being misogynous by definition] and redefine the language we use. Soon enough, there won't be any room left for our many voices. Yes indeed, "sexist language matters" very much!

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Really important stuff
Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 12, 2007 5:07 PM   
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What with all else going on in the world right now, this seems just a bit superficial, doncha think?

But I read the piece anyway. Yawn.

Here's a question for all of you: How come sexism BY women is never addressed? Hmmm?

And while I never use sexist language, demean women or do anything that would rile an ardent feminist, can you please give me an example of woman-made lake?

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THIS IS BULLSHIT
Posted by: Rshaw on Mar 12, 2007 9:06 PM   
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I'm so sick of this identity politics bullshit. I mean yes we need to be aware of our language and how they reproduce social inequality. But if we have deep material inequality it only reinforces identity inequality - so we need to pay more attention to systemic issues. Even if we change our language so that is perfect we will still have with us the most fundamental problems in our society - vast material inequality. And that inequality will still be more so brought upon women and minorities.

Wake up and change this capitalist system and stop ignoring it. I may make all these fake activist post modernists feel warm to focus on "what we can change today", but the fake is that this changes very little and will likely be rolled back anyway.

It really feels like a lot of people in progressive circles are giving up on social inequality. Largely because they are rich and white, and might have to deal with that fact should they come to terms with systemic issues.

If you want to change things think about how we can create new structures that promote equality - non-profits, coops, community resources. We must put the power back in the hands of average people and to do that we need to have more resources democratically controlled by average people. Who controls the resources controls social mechanisms of our society and who controls these mechanism more or less controls our language in the end. We must provide a genuine space to develop our own language not just randomly try to change it within the current oppressive system.

We have been at this identity politics game for decades and what has it got us? Well things have become much worse, way to go, lets continue.

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» RE: THIS IS BULLSHIT Posted by: hellofriends

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Gentlemanbug
Posted by: hellofriends on Mar 12, 2007 9:47 PM   
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Please help. I am a ladybug. I am a male. Everyday on my way to the flower people remark "oh wow look how cute, a ladybug." I am ashamed, helpless and confused.

Thank you alternet for giving me a voice. I wish all of you well. Flutter flutter flutter...

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somethimes a cigar is just a cigar!
Posted by: grey1156 on Mar 13, 2007 4:41 AM   
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I agree with the idea that a greater care on the choice of word is important; the use of terms such as man or guys can at times have underlining sexist views. Equally important is the premise of not looking for a sexist attitude in the absolute use of a word or phrase. The only true absolute is that there are no absolutes. Such a belief can be an expression of non thinking, just pigeonhole it, without regard. This justifies an environment of censorship. Most people do not speak in the third person chairperson. policeperson, fireperson, etc… let women use women and men use men, because you are speaking from your gender and not go looking for sexist behavior, seek and you will find. The discussion of violence against women could be seen as a sexist attitude, why not violence against persons. Yes the fact that there is so much horror in the amount of violence against women by men is self evident, but do women truly feel that they are less violent than men, that is despicable. Violence is not the product of an empty fist, but an expression, which women are equally capable of. How we see ourselves is how we see each other, if you can lie to yourself how easy is it to lie to others. Everything in the dream is you.

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it's a class thing
Posted by: karyse on Mar 13, 2007 5:57 AM   
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As long as we battle each other, we will not battle our enemies. I have more in common with the poor slob digging a ditch than I'll ever have in common with Hillary.

The poor slob digging a ditch (man or woman) has little time nor inclination to assess his/her use of language as he/she is working 12 hour days, or perhaps two to three jobs, or maybe is just too effing tired.

When the boss comes up and says, "okay, you guys, less talk, more work" I don't give a shit about the "guy" part, because it clearly indicates, as another poster suggested, that all of us in the ditch are comrades.

And when I ask, "hey guys, isn't it time for a union?" anyone who agrees, will be fired -- man or woman.

Sorry people, it just doesn't matter.

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» RE: it's a class thing Posted by: kellybelly

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Oh my God, we're still on this crap?
Posted by: Ayla87 on Mar 13, 2007 10:50 AM   
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We didn't give a damn after the first article, what makes the author think a second one will change our minds? Because she teaches a class on the subject? You can have a PH.D in this subject for all I care and still not give a shit. There are women in this country being beaten, abused and repressed and you're focusing your time on an article about why "sexist" language matters. Someone has some skewed priorities if you ask me.

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Simple Change
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 12:53 PM   
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I don't recall the author asking everyone to stop challenging other forms of oppression (ie violence against women).

I think the article was an additionanl consideration. It seems relatively simple to me to change the language that I say. Where as asking me to stop "men's violence against women" seems a rather daunting task in comparision.

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Proposal- just try it
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 1:10 PM   
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It's funny I read this article and decided to just try listening to the number of times people used the word "you guys."

It's amazing. And it isn't even logical.

My partner's 5 year old asked the other day why women can't be postmen. Heh. It's funny to laugh at first. But the way we socialize children and the language we teach them influences their thought processes.

I agree that language affects attitude and attitude affects behavior.

Just thinking of words that exist in other languages that don't exist in ours and the corresponding attitudes and behaviors that go with them.

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"Guy" validates me, "Girl" makes me feel less serious...
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 1:27 PM   
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As a woman, if someone makes me feel like I'm one of the guys, or calls me "guy." I feel like I have that status- that it's okay to be called "a guy" because that's a desired status in society.

Because that position comes w/ privilege.

And of course it's a double standard to call women "guys" and it be Okay, but it's not okay a person to call men "girls," because it just doesn't carry the same social weight.

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Proposal II- Call everyone Girls
Posted by: kellybelly on Mar 13, 2007 1:27 PM   
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And see how far it gets you.

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Guys and Guys
Posted by: sgoodhall on Mar 13, 2007 4:28 PM   
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The Oxford English Dictionary defines a guy as "A person of grotesque appearance, esp. with reference to dress; a ‘fright’." Years ago I convinced my daughters that "guy" is gender-neutral.

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oh blah
Posted by: whitey on Mar 13, 2007 4:32 PM   
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And this article is an example of why progressives have been stuffed left right and centre for the last 30 years. While a bunch of lefties whinge about language, the far right is getting on with passing laws, organising and crucifying the political system.
This is a ridiculous diversion. Get over it

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Interesting discussion
Posted by: opeluboy on Mar 13, 2007 5:23 PM   
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I admit I read this article and found it profoundly stupid, but the responses here are anything but, for the most part.

But here's a few questions for you.

What do we do about the fact that all the romance languages have masculine and feminine genders?

How about the terms "mother" and "father?" Is it sexist to differentiate? Should there be a word that is gender-neutral to cover both?

If the draft is reinstated, should all women of age be required to register to avoid sexism?

Should I treat all women like I treat men? In other words, should I not attempt to be more polite, considerate, behave myself, in other words, be a gentleman?

When a woman flirts with me, should I deck her?

When a woman tells me a dirty joke, should I accuse her of sexual harassment? If in the workplace, should I seek to have her removed form her job?

If I see a man beating up a woman, should I avoid interferring, as it would imply she is weak?

And when the women I know call each other "guys," should I hand them a copy of this article?

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» RE: Interesting discussion Posted by: opeluboy
» RE: Interesting discussion Posted by: opeluboy

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Cool New Website
Posted by: electorials on Mar 13, 2007 8:17 PM   
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hey...come check out www.electorials.com

Check out our brand new blogs and our great and organized political message boards.

Bryan

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Hey Folks (Not Guys) things will change..
Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 14, 2007 7:22 AM   
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Did it ever occur to anyone that these phrases have been indoctrinated into the culture over a very long period of time?

The strides womens rights and roles have made in the last 75 years or so have simply left the language in the dust.

The language will correct itself over a period of time, it always does.

But its silly to to believe that use of words like guys or postman are anything more than habits.

I recieved an e-mail last week urging me to contact my congresswoman. See its happening.

Maybe a little patience is in order.

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An interesting note on English language usage
Posted by: susanhathaway on Mar 14, 2007 4:23 PM   
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Of all of the pairs of words in English that have traditionally had "male" and "female" versions (actor/actress, instructor/instructress, doctor/doctrix, etc.), only ONE pair involves a basic word referring to the female and the variant referring to the male: widow/widower.

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Refusing to play along
Posted by: jfields@sfsu.edu on Mar 16, 2007 7:44 AM   
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So often when I teach classes on gender, sexuality, and race, students leave the room despairing about what they possibly do to challenge a system that disadvantages so many women, people of color, and LGBTQ people. They recognize that the problem is systemic, and they have little sense how to bring down an entire system. I love the "you guys" analysis because it reminds us all that too often we do our part to keep that system going. It's these little gestures--you guys, freshman, and so on--that sustain sexism by obscuring it.

Kleinman says, "Male-based generics are another indicator -- and more importantly, a reinforcer -- of a system in which "man" in the abstract and men in the flesh are privileged over women." That's why this matters, and that's why I taught myself to use a different but familiar term--you. That's right, plain ol' "you." You remember its amazing ability to be both singular and plural?

So when I'm out fighting the fight, resisting the incarceration of women of color or advocating for sexuality education that respects the lives and needs of queer youthe and youth of color, I don't undermine my efforts by playing along in a mindless way with a sexist structure. I don't let my language suggest that that the lives of women and men are all the same. I keep my eye on the ways that sexism, racism, and poverty have real material consequences for most of us, leaving many of *you guys* in an advantaged position.

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Replace "you guys" with "all y'all muhfuggas"
Posted by: papibear on Mar 17, 2007 2:58 PM   
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And watch how quickly people will say "wow, I think I liked 'you guys' after all." Especially when you hear a 5 year old girl get her girlfriends' attention on the playground at recess by saying "hey, all y'all muhfuggas, look at my new Hello Kitty coin purse!"

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libertyordeath
Posted by: libertyordeath on Mar 17, 2007 4:17 PM   
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Changing language does not work.Whenever I hear the word "special" I hear "retarded".You can not make nice of language.Speak english,say what is meant by the word.

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People simply do not like you.
Posted by: K. on Mar 17, 2007 6:19 PM   
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As a member of the great unwashed, I'd like to repeat what I hear frequently about feminists. They're a prissy little girl's club out to make the world revolve backward. The general public doesn't care how mad/hurt using the language as they've always done makes feminists. I would imagine that 99.99% of the population is just trying to communicate in the way that has been common for hundreds of years. It is a dreadful and HUGE imposition to try to reorder the speech patterns of all English speakers. It's like trying to force everyone to walk pigeon-toed, or eat only one type of food. People take speech for granted. They are entitled to from a sheer numbers perspective. They want to be comfortable and they aren't basically mean. It is no surprise that the vast majority of people are ignoring the silly notion that you guys or freshman is hurting half the population. If half the population felt that way there might be blood in the streets, or at least it would be a topic of conversation. Only a very few people care about this topic. Most women don't agree with the writer. Politically correct speech feels awkward and I don't know anyone who likes the shaming or scornful tactics that the thought police use to try to enforce political correctness on the vast majority pf men AND women, who frankly don't give a damn and can't be compelled to.

It is this brand of silliness that gets people like George Bush elected. People would prefer George Bush to any candidate who's tarred with the feminist agenda. Think about that. How bad do you have to be that George Bush would even be noticed? The feminists are that mind-bogglingly unpopular. And not because the patriarchy wills it so. It's just damned unattractive to listen or read feminists stating their miniscule minority positions in prose so dense it could be used to shield this country from a nuclear attack. Lets stop paying defense contractors and just all hold up feminist Prose in our national defense. No missile could penetrate it.

It is a repulsive and foolishly divisive argument. Republicans are robbing us blind and want no sex act to go unpunished, but sadly, the Democratic party has the reputation of wanting to legislate how people think and feel. That is the larger assault on our rights. Neither of them represent the vast majority and it's damned disheartening to still be having the sort of debate that got the Democrats voted out in the first place.

African-americans have been trying for the past 70 or so years to decide what they want to be called, and browbeating the country into changing names for them every 10 or 15 years. I have been through colored, negro, black, and African American. It makes them seem weak. They don't have any real connection to Africa after a couple of hundred years. They're Americans with a darker skin color who don't seem to know what they want and all most of us want it for them to settle on one term that gives no offense so that we can give no offense. I refuse to do that for women and I am one. An annoyed one.

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origin of calling females "chick"
Posted by: whitsettk on Mar 22, 2007 7:50 PM   
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Hi--
I teach high school sociology in Cincinnati. My students, both male and female, love to use the word "chick" or "chicks". I vaguely remember talking about this in a college class about the origin of the word to describe girls in a derogatory manner. The discussion in my high school class had various ideas on the origin. One of my students said that her father told her it was originally used by pedophiles to describe young girls legs that were not old enough to shave. A male student said he heard that the reason was because when women are performing fellatio (he said sucking a "cock") that their heads move back and forth like a chicken. I was amazed that they would voice these theories and still use the word. Can you help us out? Can you send us in the right direction to find the answer?

I thank you in advance for taking the time to give us a response.


whitsettk@wyomingcityschools.org

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