COMMENTS: 155
Drinking and Rape: The Rest of the Story
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Looking back, I can imagine a number of social or institutional interventions which might have helped prevent this attack from happening. But none of them includes the approach that so many articles on this subject take, which is to "raise awareness" among young women that getting drunk in public puts them at greater risk of exploitation and sexual assault.
Why is this an impotent approach? For all the same reasons abstinence-only education does nothing to stop the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (and may even contribute to it).
Very few people of any age or gender go out and drink enough to get drunk thinking it's a responsible thing to do. However true it may be that it's safer not to get drunk (approximately 70 percent of rapes among college students involve alcohol or drug use), it's not like young women don't already hear about the risks from parents, college administrations, the nightly news, or any of the 25 "CSI" or "Law and Order" clones on TV.
In fact, for many young people of all genders, drinking is a form of rebellion, appealing exactly because of all the warnings that come along with it.
Three Positive Steps
So what would have worked? No one can say for sure, but here are three things that would have given me a fighting chance:
1. Hold boys and men responsible.
Let's look a little more closely at that correlation between rape and alcohol. That's not a correlation between female drinking and rape. It's a correlation between all drinking and rape. In fact, studies have shown that it's more likely that a male rapist has been drinking than that his female victim has. So if we want to raise awareness about the links between drinking and rape, we should start by getting the word out to men that alcohol is likely to impair their ability to respond appropriately if a sexual partner says "no." When was the last time you read that article in any kind of publication?
The silence around men's drinking is, of course, part of a much larger "boys will be boys" culture, one which played a large part in my assault. The party I attended was for a men's sports team; the coaches provided the alcohol. Try to imagine them doing that for a women's sports team.
This is the very culture that supports acquaintance rape to begin with, the very culture feminists have been working to dismantle for decades. Holding boys and men accountable is no quick fix. But when we discuss drinking and rape and neglect to shine the light on men's drinking, we play into the same victim-blaming that makes it so easy for men to rape women in the first place.
Similarly, we should be teaching men that the best way to avoid becoming a rapist is to seek positive consent, as opposed to just leaving it up to a woman to say "no."
Meanwhile, there are some things we should be doing to keep ourselves safe in the short term, including:
2. Promote a more sophisticated, pleasure-affirming message.
This means going beyond advocating "abstinence."
Yes, tell young women that when it comes to preventing sexual violence, not drinking is safer than drinking.
But stop there, and you're setting up a false and impossible choice between sobriety and rape. Drinking can be a lot of fun, both chemically and socially, and most of us will choose immediate pleasure over the abstract risk of violence or death, at least some of the time. Plus, the more adults warn against something, the more appealing it is as an act of rebellion.
Give All the Information
Instead, let's try the safer sex education approach: Treat young women as people who can make informed decisions by giving them all the information. A message that might sound something like this:
a. The safest thing to do is not to drink at all.
b. If you decide to drink, it's safer to do it in moderation and-or in the company of a friend you trust to look out for you. (Not just someone you know. Nearly 80 percent of rape victims know their attackers.)
c. For the times you may choose to get properly sauced, or your friend turns out to be not as reliable as you'd hoped, and for times you may be sober and need to know anyhow, learn how to defend yourself against sexual coercion and assault.
Which brings us to:
3. Teach widespread, effective self-defense skills to women and girls.
I never even tried to shove that guy off of me, something that I now know I could have easily done, even drunk, even if he was bigger than me, which honestly, he wasn't. But it never occurred to me there was anything I could do physically to protect myself. Why? Not because I was drunk. Because literally no one my whole life had told me that my body could work in my own defense (and many, many messages had told me to the contrary).
Women Can Use Their Own Bodies
And yet it's true; women and girls can keep themselves safe using our very own bodies. No pepper spray. No whistles. Even women who don't work out, or are "overweight" or are physically impaired.
It both is and isn't mystifying why more women don't know this.
The parts of our culture that rely on violence against women as a tool to keep everyone "in their place" work hard to keep us from knowing.
But women often play a role in this unknowing, whether out of discomfort with the process involved in learning, fear that it may work for others but not us, and other complex reasons. (For more on this phenomenon, read Anastasia Higginbotham's excellent article "Kicking and Shrugging -- Why do we resist self-defense?" in Bitch magazine.)
Regardless of this resistance, we must all learn how to defend ourselves and insist that our schools and other public institutions teach all girls and women the same skills and not just for our own safety. Because the most practical way to reduce the risk of rape for all women is to create a culture in which the rapist has to worry that he'll get hurt.
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Posted by: polyquat50 on Mar 6, 2007 1:45 AM
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But we wouldn't need to defend ourselves if men didn't rape!
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» RE: round and back again
Posted by: RichietheC
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: mythman
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: icj
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: feministguy
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» seconding the endorsement for IMPACT Model Mugging
Posted by: leftcoasttransplant
» seconding the endorsement for IMPACT Model Mugging
Posted by: leftcoasttransplant
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: icj
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: fork
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: EagleMB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Catherine Martell on Mar 6, 2007 3:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"the most practical way to reduce the risk of rape for all women is to create a culture in which the rapist has to worry that he'll get hurt."
No, the most practical way to reduce the risk of rape for all women is to create a culture in which men do not objectify women.
The very simple test of all anti-crime strategies is this: are we asking the criminal to change, or the victim? Because, while we're asking the victim to change, we're not getting to the root of the problem. It's cause and effect.
Asking women to defend themselves against rape with physical violence is the same side of the coin as asking them to defend themselves with sobriety, with burkas, by sequestering themselves away from men, etc. Rape is not caused by female weakness. And teaching a few people to kick-box will do nothing to defend the young, the old, the infirm, the disabled, etc. Rapists deliberately pick victims who seem physically and emotionally vulnerable. How, exactly, are you going to create fear among rapists that a five-year-old child might hurt them back? Or an eighty-year-old woman in a wheelchair?
The only worthwhile anti-rape strategy is one that attempts to get to the root of the problem and prevent rapist behaviour in the first place. Anything asking the victims to change is both offensive and pointless.
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» Question.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: icj
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: roymac
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: SAllen
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: EagleMB
» Missing the point
Posted by: Tubeguru
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: hannah
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Posted by: Neilium on Mar 6, 2007 3:52 AM
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Having said that, I think it would be reasonable for the ability of men's skills of violence to be misused occaisionaly
Football may be seen as a sport but it's war games violence is what it's all about. The ball is just the excuse, same with boxing wrestling and all other body contact sports, it's practice for violence against others. I think rape has to do with a males relationship with mother rather than men forcing a woman to have sex.
No excuses, but it's not all that simple, eh?
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» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: mazel
» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: c&s mom
» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: Jimbo
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 6, 2007 4:27 AM
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Posted by: ahmlco on Mar 6, 2007 4:56 AM
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I disagree.
You can "ask" the criminals to change. You can try to setup conditions under which change might be possible. Ultimately, however, the only actions over which you have absolute control are your own. Especially in the short term.
Women need to recognize the fact that some behaviors are riskier than others, that there are things they can do to reduce those risks, and if they choose to take those risks anyway that there are things they can learn to do if and when the unspeakable occurs.
To ignore those facts and to seek to place blame on "men" or "society" is to abdicate your own personal responsibility and relinquish control over your life to others that may not live by such lofty ideals.
Put bluntly, you can "hope" it never happens. Or you can be prepared for the day it might...
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» The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: roymac
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: roymac
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: mzbuz
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: quietkristenlynn
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Mar 6, 2007 5:53 AM
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» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: yhbujn
» This is the stupidest thing i've read here
Posted by: felipe
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: Entheogenic
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: timebomb734
» albrechtkrausse is a misogynist & his post, intended as irony, was not meant to be taken literally!
Posted by: Douglas
» Would it be correct to say that sex between two women is never rape?
Posted by: Douglas
» Is sex between two men always rape, sometimes rape or never rape?
Posted by: Douglas
» Is sex between a homosexual male and a heterosexual female always rape?
Posted by: Douglas
» Is albrechtkrausse a rapist? Is that the meaning of his post?
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: wisegalah
» bravo!
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: all sex is rape, ... So all men are rapist?
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» you're an idiot. Canadian, too?
Posted by: suki
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Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 6, 2007 6:41 AM
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» RE: Living in a bubble
Posted by: yhbujn
» "went out and saw how women behave these days"?!?!?
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: "went out and saw how women behave these days"?!?!?
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: "went out and saw how women behave these days"?!?!?
Posted by: quietkristenlynn
» Evidence, please.
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: vidence, please.
Posted by: russianblue1
» you jerk
Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: you jerk
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: silverside on Mar 6, 2007 7:02 AM
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That said, I am also somewhat cynical. I would like to see better prosecution of rapists, so that they can't use the victim's use/disuse of alcohol as an excuse. But that's a tall order. This culture is rampantly misogynist--something I have come to understand the older that I get--and I frankly think that for the most part, these men are very seldom held responsible and never will. You practically have to be a child with a knife to your throat to get a rape conviction.
And as a mother with a teenaged daughter, I'm not interested in preaching about male responsibility that will never happen. I think that feminists who scream this start to sound hopelessly utopian and out of touch with the real world. I'm interested in giving my daughter the tools to protect her self NOW. Which means not drinking or drinking in a way that maximizes your safety. Because that's life in a patriarchy. There's no point pleading with the men to behave and be nice, and least not the ones who are inclined to rape.
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» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: luckykaruba
» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: EagleMB
» Derringers
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: ladyoracle on Mar 6, 2007 7:13 AM
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» RE: you jerk
Posted by: Ben Atherton-Zeman
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Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 6, 2007 7:18 AM
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P.S.: I didn't start dating until I was 26 years old and yes ABSTINENCE is a cure.
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» communication skills?
Posted by: Ames
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Posted by: phindrup on Mar 6, 2007 7:20 AM
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Here in Sydney Australia there is a yearly march to ‘reclaim the streets’ by people who believe that a woman ought to be able to walk anywhere, anytime without any concern for her own safety.
Never in human history has this been the case, for man or woman!
As far back as the 1960's in Wellington, New Zealand there were no-go areas for the cops, unless there were at least six of them.
‘Everybody’ knows that you do not flash money about, do not go into rough areas with items of value in view, watch as you walk through the streets at night, particularly when alone, and cross to the other side when there is a noisy or drunken group ahead — don’t they?
In the 60's a judo club I belonged to taught self defence to woman. Not taught women judo to defend themselves, but self defence relying on commonsense and deceit to bypass the years it takes to develop judo skills sufficiently for it to protect you on the street.
Young women took to the teaching with enthusiasm and learned these basic, effective techniques quickly.
The problem arose when towards the end of the classes they were told very clearly that these defensive tactics could cause really serious injuries and were not to be used ‘in fun’, ever.
Most said that they were not prepared to use a defence that could cause serious injury!
Perhaps today’s young woman would react differently?
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Mar 6, 2007 7:37 AM
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All women need to be taught a very simple lesson:
girl, if you go get drunk at a party, and you expect some random person to be looking out for you, you best expect to be disappointed. You make sure beforehand what you expect your friends to do for you. You think about the consequences before you take that next drink. Think while you still can. Or learn the hard way. Up to you.
What really bothers me about the whole rape thing is that it's a loss for everybody. Women seem to forget that. And all this anger and rage gets directed at people who otherwise could have been friends. And that's a real shame because when you look around at what's going on in the world, there are many forces at work that are raping the living daylights out of all of us every day.
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» RE: blaming men
Posted by: roymac
» RE: blaming men
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: blaming men
Posted by: roymac
» But we're NOT dogs...
Posted by: Ben Atherton-Zeman
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Posted by: melissa999 on Mar 6, 2007 7:39 AM
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Even this device acted as merely a deterrent to make someone think twice, it would be a good thing. The public humiliation of having to check into a hospital and the shame involved in asking for this device to be removed would be a welcome change. I'd love everyone to know who the rapists are -- especially the trusted husbands, boyfriends, athletes, family members and so-called upstanding members of society. It would be so wonderful to get away from the old saw, "Oh, she's a lying bitch...I didn't do anything...."
Obviously, this won't solve the problem, but I think it'll do a lot more than some pepper spray.
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» RE: I like the idea in South Africa of the Rapex
Posted by: SAllen
» Is that true? If so, give the inventor a great big prize!
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: Is that true? If so, give the inventor a great big prize!
Posted by: melissa999
» RE: I like the idea in South Africa of the Rapex
Posted by: debedb
» RE: I like the idea in South Africa of the Rapex
Posted by: PirateJesus
» old news
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: old news
Posted by: Suz
» RE: old news
Posted by: Blue Heron
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 6, 2007 8:16 AM
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In fact, the number of violent crimes, in all sectors, that are alcohol-related is extremely high. Still, the real problem is that rapists get off so easily - if ten-to-twenty year prison sentances for rape were the norm, you'd see a change in behavior (and DNA testing makes the cases more ironclad these days). Legalizing cannabis, letting all those people out of prison, and instituting severe penalties for rape would do more to solve the problem than anything else.
One note - situational awareness and positive attitude are just as important to self-defense as kickboxing skills. The most vulnerable teens are those who were never taught how to say no, and who, for whatever reason, have developed a low self-esteem.
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» RE: Alcohol-related vs cannabis-related?
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: leftcoasttransplant on Mar 6, 2007 8:37 AM
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I was sexually assaulted when I was 17, and I never dreamed that I could have stopped it with a few well-placed kicks. I was the classic disempowered young woman, assuming that I was too weak, too fat, or too much of a girl to ever be able to overpower someone. But, after an excellent self-defense class in my 20s, I discovered that I can indeed kick ass without studying martial arts or kickboxing, or even going to the gym.
I'm still angry at the man who attacked me. But I'm also angry at a culture that reinforced the "weak girl" message to me. I really, really do not understand why my junior high phys ed teachers spent 3 weeks teaching us square dancing, when they could have taught some serious life skills -- like teaching us some real self-defense skills, that could help us learn that we were empowered, strong young women, and could fight back to protect ourselves from sexual assault.
Yes, rapists need to be held accountable for their actions. But our culture is all about "divide and conquer." As long as women are blamed for their own sexual assault because they have been drinking too much, wearing the wrong clothes, etc., it will contribute to the general disempowerment that keeps women silent about their rapes. We have to start speaking up before an anti-rape movement will reach critical mass, and the first step to speaking up is empowerment. Learning your own strength, learning how to fight back, and learning how to protect yourself is potent fuel for feeling strong enough to break the silence.
In the long term, let's work together to empower women, hold rapists accountable, and change our culture of violence. In the short term, let's teach valuable skills so that we can protect ourselves while having fun responsibly.
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» RE: harm reduction 101; empowerment & movement building
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: harm reduction 101; empowerment & movement building
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: harm reduction 101; empowerment & movement building
Posted by: sagefoxx
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Posted by: Calicat on Mar 6, 2007 9:01 AM
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Friedman's piece should be required reading for both men and women entering college!
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» RE: very good article!
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: very good article!
Posted by: Logic's Edge
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Posted by: techphile on Mar 6, 2007 9:04 AM
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Posted by: magiquarian1969 on Mar 6, 2007 9:27 AM
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» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: feministguy
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: mysticalrae
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: Entheogenic
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Mar 6, 2007 10:28 AM
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It’s true that it would not have happened if I were not so good damn stupid but I am still the victim here.
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» RE: I got robbed
Posted by: EagleMB
» My point exactly
Posted by: White middleclass male
» and this is relevant, how?
Posted by: suki
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Posted by: wleming on Mar 6, 2007 10:48 AM
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» RE: a media saturated rape culture?
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: EagleMB on Mar 6, 2007 11:20 AM
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Whether a guy is sober or drunk, I think most would agree that he would equally pursue woman sexually. Even if a drunk male is more inclined to forcibly rape, that does not change the nature of his act. In otherwords, the crime is the same whether the man is sober or drunk.
A woman's alcohol consumption comes into play in relation to the defense of consensuality. First off, it should be noted that it is more likely for a male to be convicted of rape when a woman is drunk at the time, than if she is not. However, in most states, a good faith belief of consent is a defense to rape. So if a woman is not drunk, but has had a few drinks and takes actions that lead a man to believe she is consenting (and she does not say no), then the man has not committed rape.
So if a woman is more likely to give signs of consent, and more likely to forget to say no while drinking, then it is wise advice to encourage woman to not drink.
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» RE: Why a woman's alcohol consumption matter...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Why a woman's alcohol consumption matter...
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: maddy on Mar 6, 2007 11:24 PM
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Posted by: FightTheGiant on Mar 6, 2007 1:13 PM
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Posted by: FightTheGiant on Mar 6, 2007 1:16 PM
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» Rape isn't about sex
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Rape isn't about sex
Posted by: sheena2u
» If rape isn't about sex....
Posted by: FightTheGiant
» This article is not about people feeling bad about a drunken encounter!
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: This article is not about people feeling bad about a drunken encounter!
Posted by: YogiBear
» Only a woman would say sex is not a motivation for rape.
Posted by: FightTheGiant
» Oh my god kid...get a clue
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: ape isn't about sex
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
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Posted by: DaBear on Mar 6, 2007 1:23 PM
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I like the self defense advice to women. My daughter practices Aikido and she knows there will never be any reproach from us should she need to kick the shit outta some asshat who hasn't learned he's a human being first and the necessary skills that go with it. And yeah, we know that's still not enough.
But even with all that you'll still have to deal with the stats that show a high margin of error in indentifying bona fide rape and alcohol and perceived rape and alcohol. Until the debate over consent and the effect of intoxication is hashed out (because existing laws are woefully inadequate on the subject) it's all just screamin' in the wind with a huge mess o' stoopid to clean up every damned day.
Otherwise, males need to stop drinking in mixed company. Plain and simple. You can't get blamed (or held accountable if you are an asshat) if you're not there.. hell, women insist mean are absent all the time, why not ensure they're at least accurate about it. But then all that's just the same as telling women not to drink, ain't it?
Fine tools people, not sledgehammers and chisels.
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» RE: While you're at it....
Posted by: mnlefty
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Posted by: MegS on Mar 6, 2007 2:57 PM
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Why are people so concerned with so-called victim blaming that they would discourage people from learning skills that could stop a rape or even save their lives?
It's all part of the same work!
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» RE: Rape prevention & self-defense training are part of the same purpose
Posted by: sheena2u
» That's why AMERICA NEEDS MORE GUNS AND AMMO FOR SELF DEFENSE
Posted by: Jason Jordan
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Posted by: techphile on Mar 7, 2007 10:37 AM
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Posted by: suprmark on Mar 7, 2007 12:14 PM
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Mar 7, 2007 5:25 PM
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How can anyone not see it?
Ian
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» RE: This admin is aiming for a literal return to the Dark Ages.
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: beemadj on Mar 7, 2007 8:54 PM
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Mar 7, 2007 9:55 PM
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» RE: It can be fun and entertaining getting men drunk too...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: It can be fun and entertaining getting men drunk too...
Posted by: Blue Heron
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Posted by: H_H on Mar 8, 2007 5:21 AM
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Posted by: josh7337 on Mar 9, 2007 4:51 PM
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Posted by: K. on Mar 10, 2007 7:12 PM
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» RE: KateB
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Mar 12, 2007 10:25 AM
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1)Never take a woman to bed for the first time if she's under the influence of ANYthing but hormones;
2)Never give even the impression of being willing to have sex with a woman who is in in a relationship (or if you're in one);
2a)Everyone lies; if you're not sure, DON'T
2b)"We just broke up this afternoon" is too soon and may
just be a separation, and this may be a revenge fuck
3)Always use some sort of contraception; if it's the pill, ask
to see the packet or whatever, and COUNT THE PILLS
3b)If there is no contraception available, DON'T (there are
alternatives)
4)If, AT ANY POINT, she says, "No", "Stop", "Don't" or
anything similar, stop IMMEDIATELY
5)ASK FIRST. If she thinks it's "unmanly", too bad.
There are more, but you get the idea. The basic idea is to be responsible and considerate. And as to 2a), you'll be right far more often than not.
Ian
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» RE: ven when I was young I had some rules; for what it's worth:
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 13, 2007 5:57 AM
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If the daughter or sister is behaving proper and she is raped the family should take revenge.
But what do you want the American culture admires prostitution and pornograhie and violence so what do you expect???
Healthy man and women should marry and have kids.
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Posted by: janders on Mar 17, 2007 7:13 PM
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I mention this because NOTHING will ever make me say rape is "justified" or "explained" by clothing/erotic dancing, etc. All I ask, is this: Hear me out, and judge afterwards what I have to say.
I would like to respond to the assertion that under-influence sex is forced sex (by your own choice I'm talking about here). There is a growing trend that says, if you were drunk (the female), and someone had sex with you, it's all him; and he can be held liable as a rapist regardless of whether you consented or not in a drunk state.
I would launch into the whole debate about child maintennance being awarded (almost 100% of the time) when a man is seduced when drunk, but I won't. That's an argument for another day.
Instead, I'll ask you this. If your child was killed by a drunk driver, who is to blame? The barman? The Car? Or the misfit that dragged himself behind the wheel when he could barely walk straight?
When you as a woman allow yourself to reach a state that you are no longer in control - under your own free will - you are putting yourself at the mercy of those with you. All we're doing by saying "any man that has sex with you is liable to be a rapist when in that state" is to remove responsibility from the woman involved.
"Hey I was drunk (gosh officer I musta had, like, 20 Jägermeisters before going to that bar), I don't -think- I consented. HE RAPED ME" sounds a little false.
Is it going to work for the drunk driver? "gosh officer, I was drunk, HEY MUST BE THE BARGIRL'S FAULT". I don't think so. He'll be facing 10-20 and probably more as he'll be held liable for manslaughter (or worse).
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Posted by: polyquat50 on Mar 6, 2007 1:45 AM
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But we wouldn't need to defend ourselves if men didn't rape!
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» RE: round and back again
Posted by: RichietheC
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: mythman
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: icj
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: feministguy
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» seconding the endorsement for IMPACT Model Mugging
Posted by: leftcoasttransplant
» seconding the endorsement for IMPACT Model Mugging
Posted by: leftcoasttransplant
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: icj
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: fork
» RE: round and back again
Posted by: EagleMB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Catherine Martell on Mar 6, 2007 3:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"the most practical way to reduce the risk of rape for all women is to create a culture in which the rapist has to worry that he'll get hurt."
No, the most practical way to reduce the risk of rape for all women is to create a culture in which men do not objectify women.
The very simple test of all anti-crime strategies is this: are we asking the criminal to change, or the victim? Because, while we're asking the victim to change, we're not getting to the root of the problem. It's cause and effect.
Asking women to defend themselves against rape with physical violence is the same side of the coin as asking them to defend themselves with sobriety, with burkas, by sequestering themselves away from men, etc. Rape is not caused by female weakness. And teaching a few people to kick-box will do nothing to defend the young, the old, the infirm, the disabled, etc. Rapists deliberately pick victims who seem physically and emotionally vulnerable. How, exactly, are you going to create fear among rapists that a five-year-old child might hurt them back? Or an eighty-year-old woman in a wheelchair?
The only worthwhile anti-rape strategy is one that attempts to get to the root of the problem and prevent rapist behaviour in the first place. Anything asking the victims to change is both offensive and pointless.
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» Question.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: icj
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: roymac
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: SAllen
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: EagleMB
» Missing the point
Posted by: Tubeguru
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: TassieDevil
» RE: Seconding polyquat50, above...
Posted by: hannah
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Posted by: Neilium on Mar 6, 2007 3:52 AM
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Having said that, I think it would be reasonable for the ability of men's skills of violence to be misused occaisionaly
Football may be seen as a sport but it's war games violence is what it's all about. The ball is just the excuse, same with boxing wrestling and all other body contact sports, it's practice for violence against others. I think rape has to do with a males relationship with mother rather than men forcing a woman to have sex.
No excuses, but it's not all that simple, eh?
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» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: mazel
» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: c&s mom
» RE: BIG ISSUES HEDGED AROUND HERE.
Posted by: Jimbo
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 6, 2007 4:27 AM
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Posted by: ahmlco on Mar 6, 2007 4:56 AM
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I disagree.
You can "ask" the criminals to change. You can try to setup conditions under which change might be possible. Ultimately, however, the only actions over which you have absolute control are your own. Especially in the short term.
Women need to recognize the fact that some behaviors are riskier than others, that there are things they can do to reduce those risks, and if they choose to take those risks anyway that there are things they can learn to do if and when the unspeakable occurs.
To ignore those facts and to seek to place blame on "men" or "society" is to abdicate your own personal responsibility and relinquish control over your life to others that may not live by such lofty ideals.
Put bluntly, you can "hope" it never happens. Or you can be prepared for the day it might...
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» The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: roymac
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: roymac
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: Nedtheredhead
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: mzbuz
» RE: The 'Victim Dictum'
Posted by: quietkristenlynn
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Mar 6, 2007 5:53 AM
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» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: yhbujn
» This is the stupidest thing i've read here
Posted by: felipe
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: Entheogenic
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: timebomb734
» albrechtkrausse is a misogynist & his post, intended as irony, was not meant to be taken literally!
Posted by: Douglas
» Would it be correct to say that sex between two women is never rape?
Posted by: Douglas
» Is sex between two men always rape, sometimes rape or never rape?
Posted by: Douglas
» Is sex between a homosexual male and a heterosexual female always rape?
Posted by: Douglas
» Is albrechtkrausse a rapist? Is that the meaning of his post?
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: all sex is rape, at least between men and women, because
Posted by: wisegalah
» bravo!
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: all sex is rape, ... So all men are rapist?
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» you're an idiot. Canadian, too?
Posted by: suki
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Posted by: Bobsays on Mar 6, 2007 6:41 AM
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» RE: Living in a bubble
Posted by: yhbujn
» "went out and saw how women behave these days"?!?!?
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: "went out and saw how women behave these days"?!?!?
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: "went out and saw how women behave these days"?!?!?
Posted by: quietkristenlynn
» Evidence, please.
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: vidence, please.
Posted by: russianblue1
» you jerk
Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: you jerk
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: silverside on Mar 6, 2007 7:02 AM
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That said, I am also somewhat cynical. I would like to see better prosecution of rapists, so that they can't use the victim's use/disuse of alcohol as an excuse. But that's a tall order. This culture is rampantly misogynist--something I have come to understand the older that I get--and I frankly think that for the most part, these men are very seldom held responsible and never will. You practically have to be a child with a knife to your throat to get a rape conviction.
And as a mother with a teenaged daughter, I'm not interested in preaching about male responsibility that will never happen. I think that feminists who scream this start to sound hopelessly utopian and out of touch with the real world. I'm interested in giving my daughter the tools to protect her self NOW. Which means not drinking or drinking in a way that maximizes your safety. Because that's life in a patriarchy. There's no point pleading with the men to behave and be nice, and least not the ones who are inclined to rape.
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» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: EagleMB
» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: luckykaruba
» RE: Hold men responsible? Yea, right.
Posted by: EagleMB
» Derringers
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: ladyoracle on Mar 6, 2007 7:13 AM
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» RE: you jerk
Posted by: Ben Atherton-Zeman
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Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 6, 2007 7:18 AM
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P.S.: I didn't start dating until I was 26 years old and yes ABSTINENCE is a cure.
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» communication skills?
Posted by: Ames
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Posted by: phindrup on Mar 6, 2007 7:20 AM
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Here in Sydney Australia there is a yearly march to ‘reclaim the streets’ by people who believe that a woman ought to be able to walk anywhere, anytime without any concern for her own safety.
Never in human history has this been the case, for man or woman!
As far back as the 1960's in Wellington, New Zealand there were no-go areas for the cops, unless there were at least six of them.
‘Everybody’ knows that you do not flash money about, do not go into rough areas with items of value in view, watch as you walk through the streets at night, particularly when alone, and cross to the other side when there is a noisy or drunken group ahead — don’t they?
In the 60's a judo club I belonged to taught self defence to woman. Not taught women judo to defend themselves, but self defence relying on commonsense and deceit to bypass the years it takes to develop judo skills sufficiently for it to protect you on the street.
Young women took to the teaching with enthusiasm and learned these basic, effective techniques quickly.
The problem arose when towards the end of the classes they were told very clearly that these defensive tactics could cause really serious injuries and were not to be used ‘in fun’, ever.
Most said that they were not prepared to use a defence that could cause serious injury!
Perhaps today’s young woman would react differently?
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Mar 6, 2007 7:37 AM
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All women need to be taught a very simple lesson:
girl, if you go get drunk at a party, and you expect some random person to be looking out for you, you best expect to be disappointed. You make sure beforehand what you expect your friends to do for you. You think about the consequences before you take that next drink. Think while you still can. Or learn the hard way. Up to you.
What really bothers me about the whole rape thing is that it's a loss for everybody. Women seem to forget that. And all this anger and rage gets directed at people who otherwise could have been friends. And that's a real shame because when you look around at what's going on in the world, there are many forces at work that are raping the living daylights out of all of us every day.
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» RE: blaming men
Posted by: roymac
» RE: blaming men
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: blaming men
Posted by: roymac
» But we're NOT dogs...
Posted by: Ben Atherton-Zeman
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Posted by: melissa999 on Mar 6, 2007 7:39 AM
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Even this device acted as merely a deterrent to make someone think twice, it would be a good thing. The public humiliation of having to check into a hospital and the shame involved in asking for this device to be removed would be a welcome change. I'd love everyone to know who the rapists are -- especially the trusted husbands, boyfriends, athletes, family members and so-called upstanding members of society. It would be so wonderful to get away from the old saw, "Oh, she's a lying bitch...I didn't do anything...."
Obviously, this won't solve the problem, but I think it'll do a lot more than some pepper spray.
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» RE: I like the idea in South Africa of the Rapex
Posted by: SAllen
» Is that true? If so, give the inventor a great big prize!
Posted by: Torgo
» RE: Is that true? If so, give the inventor a great big prize!
Posted by: melissa999
» RE: I like the idea in South Africa of the Rapex
Posted by: debedb
» RE: I like the idea in South Africa of the Rapex
Posted by: PirateJesus
» old news
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: old news
Posted by: Suz
» RE: old news
Posted by: Blue Heron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 6, 2007 8:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact, the number of violent crimes, in all sectors, that are alcohol-related is extremely high. Still, the real problem is that rapists get off so easily - if ten-to-twenty year prison sentances for rape were the norm, you'd see a change in behavior (and DNA testing makes the cases more ironclad these days). Legalizing cannabis, letting all those people out of prison, and instituting severe penalties for rape would do more to solve the problem than anything else.
One note - situational awareness and positive attitude are just as important to self-defense as kickboxing skills. The most vulnerable teens are those who were never taught how to say no, and who, for whatever reason, have developed a low self-esteem.
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» RE: Alcohol-related vs cannabis-related?
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: leftcoasttransplant on Mar 6, 2007 8:37 AM
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I was sexually assaulted when I was 17, and I never dreamed that I could have stopped it with a few well-placed kicks. I was the classic disempowered young woman, assuming that I was too weak, too fat, or too much of a girl to ever be able to overpower someone. But, after an excellent self-defense class in my 20s, I discovered that I can indeed kick ass without studying martial arts or kickboxing, or even going to the gym.
I'm still angry at the man who attacked me. But I'm also angry at a culture that reinforced the "weak girl" message to me. I really, really do not understand why my junior high phys ed teachers spent 3 weeks teaching us square dancing, when they could have taught some serious life skills -- like teaching us some real self-defense skills, that could help us learn that we were empowered, strong young women, and could fight back to protect ourselves from sexual assault.
Yes, rapists need to be held accountable for their actions. But our culture is all about "divide and conquer." As long as women are blamed for their own sexual assault because they have been drinking too much, wearing the wrong clothes, etc., it will contribute to the general disempowerment that keeps women silent about their rapes. We have to start speaking up before an anti-rape movement will reach critical mass, and the first step to speaking up is empowerment. Learning your own strength, learning how to fight back, and learning how to protect yourself is potent fuel for feeling strong enough to break the silence.
In the long term, let's work together to empower women, hold rapists accountable, and change our culture of violence. In the short term, let's teach valuable skills so that we can protect ourselves while having fun responsibly.
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» RE: harm reduction 101; empowerment & movement building
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: harm reduction 101; empowerment & movement building
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: harm reduction 101; empowerment & movement building
Posted by: sagefoxx
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Posted by: Calicat on Mar 6, 2007 9:01 AM
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Friedman's piece should be required reading for both men and women entering college!
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» RE: very good article!
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: very good article!
Posted by: Logic's Edge
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Posted by: techphile on Mar 6, 2007 9:04 AM
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Posted by: magiquarian1969 on Mar 6, 2007 9:27 AM
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» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: feministguy
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: mysticalrae
» RE: The Native Americans had this problem under control
Posted by: Entheogenic
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Posted by: White middleclass male on Mar 6, 2007 10:28 AM
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It’s true that it would not have happened if I were not so good damn stupid but I am still the victim here.
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» RE: I got robbed
Posted by: EagleMB
» My point exactly
Posted by: White middleclass male
» and this is relevant, how?
Posted by: suki
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Posted by: wleming on Mar 6, 2007 10:48 AM
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» RE: a media saturated rape culture?
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: EagleMB on Mar 6, 2007 11:20 AM
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Whether a guy is sober or drunk, I think most would agree that he would equally pursue woman sexually. Even if a drunk male is more inclined to forcibly rape, that does not change the nature of his act. In otherwords, the crime is the same whether the man is sober or drunk.
A woman's alcohol consumption comes into play in relation to the defense of consensuality. First off, it should be noted that it is more likely for a male to be convicted of rape when a woman is drunk at the time, than if she is not. However, in most states, a good faith belief of consent is a defense to rape. So if a woman is not drunk, but has had a few drinks and takes actions that lead a man to believe she is consenting (and she does not say no), then the man has not committed rape.
So if a woman is more likely to give signs of consent, and more likely to forget to say no while drinking, then it is wise advice to encourage woman to not drink.
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» RE: Why a woman's alcohol consumption matter...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Why a woman's alcohol consumption matter...
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: maddy on Mar 6, 2007 11:24 PM
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Posted by: FightTheGiant on Mar 6, 2007 1:13 PM
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Posted by: FightTheGiant on Mar 6, 2007 1:16 PM
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» Rape isn't about sex
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Rape isn't about sex
Posted by: sheena2u
» If rape isn't about sex....
Posted by: FightTheGiant
» This article is not about people feeling bad about a drunken encounter!
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: This article is not about people feeling bad about a drunken encounter!
Posted by: YogiBear
» Only a woman would say sex is not a motivation for rape.
Posted by: FightTheGiant
» Oh my god kid...get a clue
Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: ape isn't about sex
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Mar 6, 2007 1:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like the self defense advice to women. My daughter practices Aikido and she knows there will never be any reproach from us should she need to kick the shit outta some asshat who hasn't learned he's a human being first and the necessary skills that go with it. And yeah, we know that's still not enough.
But even with all that you'll still have to deal with the stats that show a high margin of error in indentifying bona fide rape and alcohol and perceived rape and alcohol. Until the debate over consent and the effect of intoxication is hashed out (because existing laws are woefully inadequate on the subject) it's all just screamin' in the wind with a huge mess o' stoopid to clean up every damned day.
Otherwise, males need to stop drinking in mixed company. Plain and simple. You can't get blamed (or held accountable if you are an asshat) if you're not there.. hell, women insist mean are absent all the time, why not ensure they're at least accurate about it. But then all that's just the same as telling women not to drink, ain't it?
Fine tools people, not sledgehammers and chisels.
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» RE: While you're at it....
Posted by: mnlefty
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Posted by: MegS on Mar 6, 2007 2:57 PM
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Why are people so concerned with so-called victim blaming that they would discourage people from learning skills that could stop a rape or even save their lives?
It's all part of the same work!
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» RE: Rape prevention & self-defense training are part of the same purpose
Posted by: sheena2u
» That's why AMERICA NEEDS MORE GUNS AND AMMO FOR SELF DEFENSE
Posted by: Jason Jordan
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Posted by: techphile on Mar 7, 2007 10:37 AM
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Posted by: suprmark on Mar 7, 2007 12:14 PM
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Mar 7, 2007 5:25 PM
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How can anyone not see it?
Ian
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» RE: This admin is aiming for a literal return to the Dark Ages.
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: beemadj on Mar 7, 2007 8:54 PM
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Posted by: Blue Heron on Mar 7, 2007 9:55 PM
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» RE: It can be fun and entertaining getting men drunk too...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: It can be fun and entertaining getting men drunk too...
Posted by: Blue Heron
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Posted by: H_H on Mar 8, 2007 5:21 AM
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Posted by: josh7337 on Mar 9, 2007 4:51 PM
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Posted by: K. on Mar 10, 2007 7:12 PM
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» RE: KateB
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Mar 12, 2007 10:25 AM
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1)Never take a woman to bed for the first time if she's under the influence of ANYthing but hormones;
2)Never give even the impression of being willing to have sex with a woman who is in in a relationship (or if you're in one);
2a)Everyone lies; if you're not sure, DON'T
2b)"We just broke up this afternoon" is too soon and may
just be a separation, and this may be a revenge fuck
3)Always use some sort of contraception; if it's the pill, ask
to see the packet or whatever, and COUNT THE PILLS
3b)If there is no contraception available, DON'T (there are
alternatives)
4)If, AT ANY POINT, she says, "No", "Stop", "Don't" or
anything similar, stop IMMEDIATELY
5)ASK FIRST. If she thinks it's "unmanly", too bad.
There are more, but you get the idea. The basic idea is to be responsible and considerate. And as to 2a), you'll be right far more often than not.
Ian
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» RE: ven when I was young I had some rules; for what it's worth:
Posted by: EagleMB
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Posted by: richholland on Mar 13, 2007 5:57 AM
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If the daughter or sister is behaving proper and she is raped the family should take revenge.
But what do you want the American culture admires prostitution and pornograhie and violence so what do you expect???
Healthy man and women should marry and have kids.
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Posted by: janders on Mar 17, 2007 7:13 PM
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I mention this because NOTHING will ever make me say rape is "justified" or "explained" by clothing/erotic dancing, etc. All I ask, is this: Hear me out, and judge afterwards what I have to say.
I would like to respond to the assertion that under-influence sex is forced sex (by your own choice I'm talking about here). There is a growing trend that says, if you were drunk (the female), and someone had sex with you, it's all him; and he can be held liable as a rapist regardless of whether you consented or not in a drunk state.
I would launch into the whole debate about child maintennance being awarded (almost 100% of the time) when a man is seduced when drunk, but I won't. That's an argument for another day.
Instead, I'll ask you this. If your child was killed by a drunk driver, who is to blame? The barman? The Car? Or the misfit that dragged himself behind the wheel when he could barely walk straight?
When you as a woman allow yourself to reach a state that you are no longer in control - under your own free will - you are putting yourself at the mercy of those with you. All we're doing by saying "any man that has sex with you is liable to be a rapist when in that state" is to remove responsibility from the woman involved.
"Hey I was drunk (gosh officer I musta had, like, 20 Jägermeisters before going to that bar), I don't -think- I consented. HE RAPED ME" sounds a little false.
Is it going to work for the drunk driver? "gosh officer, I was drunk, HEY MUST BE THE BARGIRL'S FAULT". I don't think so. He'll be facing 10-20 and probably more as he'll be held liable for manslaughter (or worse).
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