San Jose Mercury News / By DaveyD

Is Hip-Hop Really Dead?

Recording executives are more interested in turning a quick buck than nurturing rap culture -- and they are behind the apparent demise of hip-hop music.

March 3, 2007 |

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Hip-hop icon Nas made the provocative statement, "Hip-hop is dead,'' in September and set off a firestorm of controversy. It was intensified by the January release of his album bearing the same title.

Many questioned why Nas would say hip-hop -- a worldwide phenomenon that has generated billions of dollars -- could be "dead.'' After all, more hip-hop albums are being released then ever before, and the music's influence extends to movies, corporate marketing and theater. That it's dead seems absurd -- until you realize Nas was looking beneath the surface.

He was speaking of the corporate side of the music and the mentality of executives more interested in turning a quick buck than nurturing rap culture. Nas realized sex, violence and bling, as themes for the music, had pretty much run their course. Album sales had plummeted, and ratings at hip-hop radio stations in New York, Los Angeles and elsewhere had hit all-time lows.

A number of people, including this writer, also had spoken out about mediocre product coming from some of the genre's biggest stars. Yet such talk was rebuffed by so-called industry experts, who blamed digital downloading and satellite radio.

We critics, however, were vindicated by a study published earlier this year by the University of Chicago. Data from the "Black Youth Project'' indicated that while 58 percent of blacks between ages 15 and 25 listen to hip-hop daily, most are dissatisfied with it. They find the subject matter is too violent, and women too often portrayed in offensive ways.

Such feelings hint at a dirty little secret of the music business: Blacks are used largely to validate musical themes being marketed to the white mainstream. In other words, while 90 percent of commercial rap artists on TV and radio are black, the target audience lies outside the black community.

Paul Porter, a longtime industry veteran and former music programmer at BET and Radio One, is now with the watchdog organization Industryears.com. He says the University of Chicago findings offer proof positive that commercial hip-hop has become the ultimate minstrel show, and rap artists are pushed by the industry to remain perpetual adolescents.

As a result, we watch Diddy, Cam'ron, DMX and others brag about wealth and throw bills at a camera while bikini-clad women gyrate in the background. Should these artists attempt to break out of the mold, they'd risk having their work questioned by record and radio executives.

In our conversation, Porter also pointed to something more sinister: payola. He claimed hip-hop is dead only because payola is rampant at labels intent on investing in songs with sexual and violent themes.

During a separate conversation, Questlove of the Roots supported Porter's allegation with his own story about the process behind the group's Grammy-winning hit with Erykah Badu, "You Got Me.'' He said the Roots had to pony up close to "a million dollars'' to a middle man who "worked his magic'' at radio stations.

Initially, the overtly positive song had been rejected, he explained, so palms were greased with the promise that key stations countrywide would get hot "summer jam'' concert acts in exchange for airplay. According to Questlove, more than $1 million in cash and resources were eventually laid out for the success of that single song.

In the documentary "Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes,'' shown recently on the PBS series "Independent Lens,'' filmmaker Byron Hurt confronts Stephen Hill, BET's senior vice president for programming, to ask why the cable network plays so many videos with misogynist and otherwise degrading themes. The fortysomething Hill walks away without answering. This is the same executive who refused to broadcast videos by the group Little Brother, because he considered their material "too intelligent'' for the BET audience.

With thinking like that, no wonder commercial hip-hop appears dead. It's the ideas of the gatekeepers that are dead.

DaveyD writes a bi-weekly column for the MercuryNews.

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COMMENTS ( 136 )

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Wouldn't be the first time record execs killed a form of music

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Posted by: lessbread on Mar 3, 2007 2:29 AM
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They nearly killed off rock and roll in the late 50's early 60's - payola and Pat Boone. They morphed r&b into disco. They only picked up rock bands that sounded like last years big hits for most of the late 70's and 80's and they segregated music along color lines too... It's little more than product product product for them. Volume sold, not volume of soul.

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» Ear and Eye Candy for the Little Kiddies Posted by: ScoobyDoobyDoo

» RE: Ear and Eye Candy for the Little Kiddies Posted by: lessbread

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music isnt dead...just hiding

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Posted by: dannrusso on Mar 3, 2007 3:31 AM
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unfortunately, especially with the "mergers" (takeovers) of smaller record companies by larger ones, music is all about money. The US government sued a grandmother for thousands and thousands of dollars cause it could - because she was sharing music.

I have a feeling that I hope is right that there is an actual community just below the radio surface who are writing, performing, and finding a way to present real music. It is not just hip-hop that is getting a bad rap about this (he he) but almost every kind of music.

Unfortunately, people with money see art as a commodity, not as an extension of someone's soul. If you take the soul out of music, keep out the positivity, keep feeling (except for getting a feel of that ass) distant, you can keep the money rolling in because people don't have to think, they just have to react in the pre-programmed manner....

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I wish

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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Mar 3, 2007 3:34 AM
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Hip hop is too annoying to go away anytime soon.

Most good music is underground. Once in a while, something half-decent breaks through the surface. This helps, because then you have an idea of where to dig for even better music.

A more rare exception is good music making a big break into the mainstream. I can't explain the late 60s or early 90s. If someone wants to have a go at it, I would be interested to hear your theories.

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» RE: I wish Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle

» Interesting hypothesis Posted by: psychochurch

» Thanks Posted by: kepstein7777

» The mainstream blows. DUH! Posted by: thistleblower

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How Is It That A CD Costs More Than A DVD?

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Posted by: hole11 on Mar 3, 2007 5:25 AM
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Because it's new or just out on the market? I don't think so. The cost of an artist album on cd is perhaps eight dollars at the most and they are charging 20 dollars for 12 songs. Who in their right mind is going to buy it?

Music doesn't go away. Even Eminim put out a square dance song. Go figure.

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I Hope So

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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 3, 2007 5:39 AM
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If Hip-Hop had never happened or was swallowed up into the bowels of the earth, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. A bunch of misogynistic look at me smack chanted over a drum machine track just doesn't cut it. I love music and find great music in just about every type and variety, but HH grinds my ears and makes me want to hurt somebody- most likely the perp hurting my ears.

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» Rap/Hip-Hop is black cultures way of affirming itself..... Posted by: psychochurch

» RE: I Hope So Posted by: anonymous black writer

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Is Hip-Hop Dead?

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Posted by: pcushniesr on Mar 3, 2007 5:54 AM
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One can always hope.

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» RE: Is Hip-Hop Dead? Posted by: MyLeftFoot

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Hip Hop has been dead and gone

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Posted by: xenacat on Mar 3, 2007 6:07 AM
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for many, many years. Its ghost lingers on in the form of "the ultimate minstral show". Great description by author. As long as the bigtime execs are making money, we'll continue to hear this slick, overproduced, racist, sexist and just plain creatively vacant "hip hop" crap. It is no more a viable, live creative meduim any more than any other area of creative endeavor that big business has co-opted. The bright side is that once every dime is sucked out of the genre, we won't have to hear it anymore.

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Let's hope so....

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Posted by: dikaiosyne on Mar 3, 2007 6:11 AM
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I can only say that I am sorry that I am not the one to put a large caliber bullet through hip-hop's head(figuratively speakin'). Worst "musical" form to come along in my lifetime deserving of a cruel and violent end. Even worse than the syruppy musical forms of the 1930's. I can only hope that whatever replaces hip-hop as the next trend supplants the violence that this ghetto crap promotes with something more melodious and peaceful.

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» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: MyLeftFoot

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: rotogrover

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: MyLeftFoot

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: mercianomad

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: MyLeftFoot

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: mercianomad

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: MyLeftFoot

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: mercianomad

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: theCyclo

» RE: Let's hope so.... Posted by: pingoo

» RE: Let's hope you learn to read and comprehend Posted by: ekipnrut

» RE: Let's hope you learn to read and comprehend Posted by: huggybean

» RE: ekipnrut Posted by: huggybean

» RE: ekipnrut Thanks... Posted by: ekipnrut

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Picasso Said It Best

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Posted by: madmac10 on Mar 3, 2007 6:17 AM
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"...Artists are indestructible; even in a prison... I would... paint my pictures with my wet tongue on the dusty floor of my cell."

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I really hope so

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Posted by: rhinojos on Mar 3, 2007 6:17 AM
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Why people waste their time to listen to people who can barely sing and are accompanied by music straight out of a can, is beyond me. It is music literally computer generated, no real instrumenst to speak of. Just too weird...

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» Out Of A Can?!?!?!? Posted by: grumble-bum

» RE: Out Of A Can?!?!?!? Posted by: psyorg

» RE: I really hope so Posted by: sayswho

» RE: I really hope so Posted by: anonymous black writer

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The quality has indeed gone down...

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Posted by: chamizzle on Mar 3, 2007 6:25 AM
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Hip Hop has been eroding since NWA released their first misogynistic and violent title (mid 90s?). After that, music industry executives saw that the majority of people wanted either gangsta rap or some kind of "booty-shakin" club crap. As a result, true hip hip, with emphasis on lyrical ability, has been shoved down the drain, because only a small segment will buy it.

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About Time

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Posted by: rwmk12 on Mar 3, 2007 6:35 AM
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The genre is dead. That goes for rap too. It's as stale as glam rock in the spinal tap years. Cookie cutter formula = a blackhole in music. Furthermore, it is a negative influence on young people... individualism, greed, violence, and objectifying women... I see why wealthy whites have promoted it and unfortunately american blacks have bought it... hook... line... and sinker. So hurray for the lonewolf rapper who has quashed any sense of community and unity in the black community... point for boomerang propaganda. And I know that hip hop started as a postive movement and was taken over and morphed by the industry, but that seems to happen with any progressive movements of the past... if you can't beat them... be them... and pervert their message.

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» RE: About Time Posted by: kittynboi

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hip hop is on life support

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Posted by: joser718 on Mar 3, 2007 9:20 AM
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hip hop is on life support right now. the garbage put out by artists and record labels is horrible. as an educator in an inner-city high school, i see the effects of such negative music. teens are more mysogynistic than ever, more violent than ever, and without regard to authority figures, whether teachers, parents, adults, or law enforcement. all these messages are preached in mainstream rap. as much as i love rap, i refuse to support these mainstream artists. yet, groups like the roots, nas, mf doom, and other artists put out good music, but unfortunately they get little, if any, air play.
wake up mainstream rap! white america base their opinions of young black america on the music and videos YOU put out. college campuses all across the country have "gansters and hoes" parties, and i am sure they are based on these negative stereotypes you constantly perpetuate in mainstream rap.

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» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: veggiegrrrl

» RE: hip hop is on life support...But your list Posted by: ekipnrut

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: Shalimarali

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: sportypat

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: joser718

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: Shalimarali

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: fred_53_99

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: anonymous black writer

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: Shalimarali

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: neosoul

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: anonymous black writer

» RE: hip hop is on life support Posted by: Shalimarali

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I didn't think Hip Hop and Gangsta Rap were the same thing

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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Mar 3, 2007 10:25 AM
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I didn't think Hip Hop and Gangsta Rap were the same thing.
I thought HH was made by politically and socially evolved artists while Gansta Rap is the garbage that has destroyed a generation of young men and women with obsession of violence, drugs, money, sex, and prison culture.

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Left Wing blind spots

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Posted by: PeaceLove on Mar 3, 2007 10:37 AM
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Jeez, the hatred and intolerance of Hip Hop and Rap in these Comments is indeed something to behold! Leave it to Alternet readers to tar the whole spectrum of Hip Hop with the "violence and misogyny" brush. You sound just like parents in the early 1960s, those "squares" who didn't like Rock & Roll and never understood that Rock was and is about freedom and rebellion from the dysfunctional status quo.

Hip Hop is possibly the most important art form of the late 20th, early 21st century, a form that has influenced every aspect of modern popular culture. Hip Hop and Rap gave a voice to the most disenfranchised and reviled members of society -- young black males -- and empowered a generation of black entrepreneurs and artists.

Wholesale condemnation of an entire musical genre smacks more than a little of the kind of condescending racism reserved for "liberals" on the Left. Such denounciations basically parrot the mainstream Hip Hop bashing that has permeated corporate media for over a decade. If it weren't so proudly ignorant it might be more amusing.

The fact that commercial Hip Hop often sucks has nothing to do with the merits of the art form and everything to do with the greedy, unimaginative recording industry. In this, Hip Hop is no different from Rock and Roll, film, or journalism. The best and deepest stuff always emerges from the underground.

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» RE: Left Wing blind spots Posted by: allUneedislove

» RE: Left Wing blind spots Posted by: Kap25

» RE: Left Wing blind spots Posted by: psyorg

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Thoughts on the state of rap music

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Posted by: chomsky on Mar 3, 2007 10:45 AM
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I love rap music, and it's really sad what's been happening to it over the years. It's easy to understand why so many people hate it because of the direction mainstream rap has gone, with excessively poor quality of rap being pushed on the radio and in music videos.

The real appeal to rap is when it's used as a positive means of creative expression. There are countless examples of this, one you should all be familiar with is "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugarhill Gang. When you listen to a rap song like that, you are absorbed by the style and creativity, stimulated by the cleverness of the lyrics and rhymes, moved by the beats and the themes and the personalities expressing them. This is human expression at one of it's finest levels. Rap like this is not only great music, but a way of empowering and uplifting people, raising conscience awareness and helps people realize they are valuable.

Increasingly, radio stations and BET bury rap under a mountain of ignorant themes, degrading women, coveting money and material things, hate and violence, forgoing actual substance with stereotypes and tired slang. It's really sad the methodical way they are spoiling an entire art form. Music companies are taking rap music away from the people it is suppose to empower, returning it as a new form of oppression. They engineer ignorance by distributing degrading and destructive messages over catchy beats.

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Commercial Rap is on life support, not Hip Hop...

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Posted by: sportypat on Mar 3, 2007 11:29 AM
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COMMERCIAL Rap may be on life support but like every great innovative musical genre the groundbreaking, essential, great stuff is still underground. This music form began in the streets and was bastardized by everyone from corporate (white) america to older r&b artists. From the beginning in the streets of new york this music was about fun and one's individual poetic skills that when combined with textured, layered, complicated rhythms was genius. Examples: afrika bambataa, beastie boys, grandmaster flash, de la soul, the roots, the fugees, queen latifah, comon, taleb qweli, the dead presidents and mos def. Before you read the last rites for this music listen to some of these artists and tell me this art form is even close to being dead. The heart and the soul of this musical force is in the streets, always has been and always will be. The DNA is untouchable by anyone. There is horrible music in every genre including rap and no other music has been ripped off more than hip hop. This music has bounced around the world and come back in many different forms. No one dismisses bruce springsteen because of taylor hicks and paris hilton. You must know about the music before you can judge the music! Use the same barometer to judge this hip hop regardless of the commercial aspect....

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» RE: Commercial Rap is on life support, not Hip Hop... Posted by: edith

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just more of the same...

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Posted by: veronica on Mar 3, 2007 11:55 AM
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It really saddens me that so much of the progressive-left community (read: white) dismisses hip-hop completely out of hand, when they fail to realize that the aspects of hip-hop culture that they find most abhorrent are the same aspects that are deliberately marketed by white music executives as a way to continue repressing the black community. While "gangsta rap" is marketed down our throats, it stifles any true understanding or compassion that could arise within the surburban kids who consume it, instead keeping everyone preoccupied with "diamonds on our necks and ice in our grills." So young black men are cast exclusively as dangerous, glamorous criminals, easy for the white community to dismiss and easy for their children to admire, while all hip-hop with a positive message of unity is kept beneath the radar. It is sinister and deliberate.

As a disclaimer, I'm a young white chick, but I live in the East Bay and love hip-hop. Some of the best acts out there have never come near a radio station (except for Davey D's show on KPFA, which is amazing). It saddens me that my peers assume I'm selling out to "thug life" because I listen to hip-hop, but I love it as an intelligent, socially-conscious and ever-changing art form, and the last extant form of lyrical poetry in our popular culture. By finding good acts on your own, it's possible to screen out all the garbage mass-marketed to us and find some real gems. Check out The Living Legends, Hieroglyphics, and Lyrics Born for music with a positive message that won't put you in mind of a music video.

Anyone in the white community who wholly dismisses hip-hop culture as offensive and dangerous is simply buying into the divide-and-conquer strategies used against us by corporate suits to discourage any thoughtful discussion about hip-hop's true cultural value. The bigotry I've seen on this message board is disheartening, to say the least.

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» great post Posted by: anniedine

» RE: great post Posted by: off-the-radar 2

» RE: just more of the same... Posted by: anonymous black writer

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Hip Hop isn't dead, its dying slowy.

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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Mar 3, 2007 12:14 PM
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The mantra of sex, drugs, bling, gang violence, pimping, and money keep coming home in the form of drive-by murders. The Black culture has been Carjacked for this melody of brainless instant systemic gratification. Substituting misguided machismo for more sensible values has denied millions a way out of their personal hells. Hip Hop won't die until its culture of violence commits suicide.

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verses

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Posted by: rah on Mar 3, 2007 12:23 PM
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in my opinion music like hip-hop is eternal. maybe, an esoteric style of hip-hop is passing, but the genre itself won't evaporate. although, i do not listen and see alot of hip-hop it still has a place in my life.... where is there a powerful movement without profiteers?

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What?

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Posted by: doctorsquared on Mar 3, 2007 12:52 PM
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While MTV hip hop does all the things decried in the article and comments (glorifying violence, misogyny, etc.), the underground variety does not.

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For those looking for hope

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Posted by: weatherguy on Mar 3, 2007 2:35 PM
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Checkout People Under the Stairs. I'm with those that find mainstream hip-hop a barren landscape. PUTS has re-invigorated my appreciation of hip hop. The beats just are so true. I recently got the OST and the Stepfather album.

Don't dismiss hip hop yet. It lives and its heart beat is strong.

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» RE: For those looking for hope Posted by: madmac10

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Sure

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Posted by: rwmk12 on Mar 3, 2007 1:45 PM
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Individualism is a divide and conquer trick. There is nothing wrong with being an individual, but there is something wrong with putting yourself above others. If it's all about my crib, my car, my cash, and my jewels... how is my neighbour making out? Who cares is the message, and within all the american promotion of the heroic "individual" resides the defense of greed, selfishness, and the capitalist way. Fact is that cooperation will always win the day, and promoting otherwise is just a cloaked attempt of the very wealthy to keep their "jewels". Hence the music industry's promotion of Rap gangsters. Freedom of speech? Black Power? Nope. More like Black disempowerment... Plus, it helps that it makes white people afraid of them too. Divide and conquer.

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» RE: Sure Posted by: neosoul

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there was always underground hip hop

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Posted by: kelt65 on Mar 3, 2007 3:03 PM
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Paris, The Coup, KRS-1, Hi-Tek, Mos Def

you won't hear talk about bitches and bling from them

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Michael Franti & Spearhead

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Posted by: felipe on Mar 3, 2007 3:18 PM
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Lyrically intelligent & positive, and musically credible hip hop

spearhead on myspace

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» RE: Michael Franti & Spearhead Posted by: veronica

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Funny how some whites can hear black rap...but are deaf to

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Posted by: ekipnrut on Mar 3, 2007 3:32 PM
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the sound of TWENTY YEARS of white murderous(literally) hate rage:
From 1988 Time article: (referring to racist skinheads)
Still, members have been arrested for distinctly unsymbolic criminal vandalism and assault in California, Texas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Michigan, Florida and Massachusetts. Their makeshift uniform makes them recognizable everywhere: shaved heads and garish tattoos, flight jackets, black English work boots -- and a California touch, Fred Perry tennis shirts. Skinhead culture seems to spread through racist rock music. Tapes and records by white- power rock groups feature songs such as Nigger, Nigger and Prisoner of Peace, the musical saga of Rudolf Hess. One group is called the Final Solution.
=================
Also Google these two up..especially the second, bringing things up to a couple of years go...(I can't hyperlink):
(Google search words are : 'racist','music' , 'nazi' in that order)
Poisoning the Web - Neo-Nazi Skinheads and Racist Rock: Youth ...
Neo-Nazi Skinheads and Racist Rock: Youth Subculture of Hate ... Music is the Skinhead movement's main propaganda weapon and its chief means of attracting ...
www.adl.org/poisoning_web/racist_rock.asp - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Neo-Nazi Hate Music: A Guide: Introduction
In the United States, racist songs praising the Ku Klux Klan or promoting ... Neo-Nazi Hate Music: A Guide RULE Introduction. Posted: November 4, 2004 ...
www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/music.asp?xpicked=5&item=music
I am no defender of 'gangsta' rap......my point is that the
big tent of 'hate' music...broadly defined...self hate..misogyny
religion based..etc.,etc.....has several rings.

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» RE: Funny how some whites can hear black rap...but are deaf to Posted by: veronica

» RE: Funny how some whites can hear black rap...but are deaf to..Check out this site!! Posted by: ekipnrut

» RE: Funny how some whites can hear black rap...but are deaf to Posted by: huggybean

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The rebirth of hip hop after the death of modern commercial rap

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Posted by: chomsky on Mar 3, 2007 5:00 PM
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People on this forum have really good taste in rap. These are just some of the names other people have mentioned in their posts:

Afrika Bambataa, Grandmaster Flash, De La Soul, Mos Def, MF Doom, Taleb Kweli, The Roots, Dead Prez, Mos Def, and Lyrics Born

All of these people are incredible music artists. It surprises me that so many people on this forum know about good rap music. This gives me some hope about the future of hip hop. If Nas and this article's author are correct in saying that commercial rap as we know it is dead, then their is a chance that quality rap may take it's place in mainstream culture. If people like us keep supporting quality rap, listening with friends and spreading by word of mouth, quality rap music will stay alive in the underground could make a return to popular culture. Rap music could finally take it's rightful place as the respectable and profound art form that it is.

I for one would be happy to finally hear some rap on the radio that doesn't suck.

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» RE: The rebirth of hip hop after the death of modern commercial rap Posted by: edith

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Ouch, so many haters! Good hip hop lives.

[Report this comment]

Posted by: boygranddakar on Mar 3, 2007 5:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

Wasn't it just last year that Dave Chappelle's Block Party came out? Dead Prez, Blackstar, Bilal, Common, not to mention the ladies, Erykah Badu and Jill Scott. Chappelle has used his star power to bring smart hip hop to the masses. The Roots are still kickin, MeShell Ndegeocello, Jurassic 5, Ozomatli incorporates rap in their work.... There's life yet. And that's not even going underground with Paris and all them.

With the internet changing music distribution channels, good hip hop will always find a way.

I'm so glad, though, that some people on this post leaped to the defense of hip hop. So many haters! Damn! Get a music education before you criticize, people.

Country and western music is not my cup of tea, but even I know better than to make a broad, sweeping generalization about how "it's all crap" yadda yadda. I could say, "Oh yeah, C&W is just a bunch of racist, misogynistic rednecks who twang guitars and sing about how America is going to kick Iraqi and immigrant ass," but I also know there are artists like Willie Nelson, the Dixie Chicks, and Lyle Lovett out there who buck that stereotype.

Think about where the hate comes from, y'all.

Big ups to Davey D for keeping the critique alive and fighting for the soul of hip hop. And he nails the problem: suburban white kids with the disposible income to buy all the rap albums at retail who want to purchase a piece of gangsta life. I'm not saying they're the only ones who fall for the posturing, but they are primarily driving the market. And rap artists who wanna get paid know where the money is and fall in line. It's a bad relationship.

Davey - follow up with a list of hip hop artists who are staying true to the political roots of hip hop. That would be a public service.

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» good post Posted by: off-the-radar 2

» RE: Ouch, so many haters! Good hip hop lives. Posted by: plogo

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Hopefully

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Posted by: drblack on Mar 3, 2007 8:28 PM
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How many Rap entertainers or top forty entertainers today.....Play instruments,sing a melody ,write and produce their own songs.
There are very few who do. Sampling other peoples songs or using pre-programed beats is NOT music.
Rap may to some may be entertaining and it also may be poetry...but it is rarely music.
That said the advent of MTV and only 5 record labels and few independent radio stations has led to the demise of music as other than product.
It is like comparing Mom's delicious and nutritious home cooked meals to eating fast food from rat infested ratraunts.
Record companies used to nuture artists they believed in ,now and since the early 80's an artist has to do it themselves and only once they have sold a few hundred thousand copies will record companies pay attention.
The pussy crap dolls are the kind of trash we get these days. With electronics that correct bad pitch anyone can sing.
Thank goodness for underground stuff. It has always been where the best music has come from.

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» RE: Hopefully Posted by: impeachbushandcheneynow

» RE: Hopefully Posted by: madmac10

» Caveman Posted by: gellero

» RE: Caveman Posted by: nickbk

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Social conditioning is the name of the game

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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 4, 2007 12:26 AM
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I always find it interesting that people who complain about violent and misogynistic rap music almost never apply that criticism to heavy metal, or to traditional Ivy League culture a la Larry Summers ("women can't do science") and to the backbone of American industry, i.e. weapons manufacturing.

Speaking of heavy metal and rap music, see this clip: Public Enemy and Anthrax: Bring the Noise.
Lyrics:
"Never badder than bad 'cuz the brother is madder than mad
At the fact that's corrupt as a senator
Soul on a roll, but you treat it like soap on a rope
'Cuz the beats in the lines are so dope
Listen for lessons I'm saying
Inside music that the critics are blasting me
For they'll never care for the brother and sisters
Now across the country has us up for the war.
We got to demonstrate, come on
They're gonna have to wait 'till we get it right
Radio stations I question their blackness
They call themselves black. but we'll see if they'll play this"

It's pretty simple to understand: record company executives aren't into promoting music that attacks the corrupt status quo, whether it's the Dixie Chicks("I'm ashamed of Bush") or Eminem ("the FCC won't let me be, they try to shut me down on MTV"). Then there's the old plantation strategy of keeping the poor whites and the poor blacks at each others throats (that Anthrax/Public Enemy mix will confuse a fair number of people).

It's very evident that popular music and television both have a huge effect on the so-called 'American pysche' - just witness the military recently going to Fox and telling them to stop using torture on '24' because of the effect it was having on soldiers in Iraq. The corporate entertainment media is going to promote the corporate view of things, which is largely pro-Bush and pro-fascist, unpleasant as that may be. They'll try and keep the traditional race/sex/class stereotypes as well. While some may call it conspiracy theory, it appears to be a deliberate strategy for maintaining social control over the population, in Chomskyan terms: Necessary Illusions are needed to keep the public in line.

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» RE: Social conditioning is the name of the game Posted by: huggybean

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So Typically Alternet

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Posted by: gellero on Mar 4, 2007 12:35 AM
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Something's not popular, and the White man and Business types are to blame......?????

I say we Demand the government bail out unemployed rappers and give the best and the brightest Goverment loans and grants to go to Julliard. NO RAPPER LEFT BEHIND. INCLUDING EMINEM

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» Nine to Five Fat Bureacrats Determine What We Hear? Posted by: edith

» RE: So Typically Alternet Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma

» LOL Karma over Dogma !! Posted by: gellero

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Y'all Are LAZY

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Posted by: gellero on Mar 4, 2007 12:53 AM
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any of y'all who thinks the world is truly deprived and repressed by 'The Man' vis a vis Hip Hop and Rap can get off his (or Her) fat and lazy ass and broadcast it as INTERNET 'RADIO' at virtually no cost with MILLIONS of potential listeners eagerly awaiting your contribution to popular culture.
When I feel in an anarchistic/destructive mood, I will broadcast 'CocaineRadio' via MacStreams.com . Theapplication to do this is called 'nicecast'. So quit WHININ' & BITCHN' about 'The Man' and do something POSITIVE

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» RE: Y'all Are LAZY Posted by: anonymous black writer

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I can't beleive how lame that post just was.

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Posted by: chomsky on Mar 4, 2007 1:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

Do you always promote your internet radio station by mentioning it on websites after insulting everyone on that website? Is this how you "stop bitchin" and do something "positive"?

Whatever you're trying to promote might be cool (probably not) but I'm not even going to try it because I had to read you calling me lazy for some reason I'm not to clear about and insulting everyone on alternet (including yourself? You're on this site too). I guess what it comes down to is you're lame, what you just wrote was lame, and I bet your taste in music is lame too (Eminem fan? Are you kidding me? what are you, a "rebellious" 14 year old?)

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» Oh Come on, Chom.... Posted by: gellero

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original instruments

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Posted by: theCyclo on Mar 4, 2007 2:33 AM
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the voice is the sound of the most original instrument...henceforth, every other fabricated, fashioned and fully realized instrument is a reflection of it's creator with the nature of creation, which is the source of its conception. This can and has manifested countless forms of sound producing intruments, from reeds to brass to drum machines. Over which is of higher quality in comparison, is purely subjective, relative and usually in the mode of the organic vs. sythetic/processed argument (ie. among things we tend to consume). But back to the point, voices and drums were/are the basic, original instruments. The former generally expresses melody and the latter expresses rhythm. Hip Hop in aural form, is the modern day revival of the most ancient form of musical expression. It's a full circle. The griot returned and dissapeared as fast as kids were signing their souls to a dotted line, for the 'bottom line.' A good question in this case would be "Is Hip Hop relevant" or any popular forms of music for that matter. Of course, Industrially, anything is relevant as long as it generates interest - the most important thing for war is war itself - enabling to keep its gears
'grinding' (those hustlin these days like refer as grinding - ain't that on point). Is recorded material of musical rituals/performances capable of passing along it's essence to next generations. The youths of the Bronx, and the other boroughs of New York originally attempted to make this a realization, of course following the natural instinct and desire to cultivate oneself - that is the root of Hip Hop. The Dj was the 'tribal leader' (actually, some were originally gang leaders like the one called Afrikka Bambattaa), and he was responsible with connect them to the rituals of music. Now, it important to understand, these kids come from the worst parts of concrete provided by this society, so opportunities, even moreso, the relevance of learning how to play the violin and ones survival in the Patterson Projects of the South Bronx was as slim as the areas education budject. I like romantacize it into the idea that the Ancients, the Ancestoral Voice called on these kids to improvise, 'freestyle' if you will. So they did. Beautifully, and in surroundings that were everything but. But these kids, as all are, were extremely impressionable. Especially for the boys, the b-boys. In American, everything is based on force and competition. So what started as a pure expression of the self, became a breeding ground for competition. Either your battlin another emcee, dj, graf artist, or the breaker. It went boys being b-boys to boys imitating men (which is another very important aspect: the role of the adult male figure). Cuz in America, if you are 'The Man' then you had it all. And these boys wanted it all, especially when you come from almost nothing. Hence the disintegration of Hip Hop and it's subsequent marriage with the Music Industry thats supplies the sounds of American pop-culture and those westernized abroad. *I'm gonna cut this short, for i did not originally intend to type this much, but note I left out keywords like crack epidemic, Reagonomics, AIDS, the Vietnam War, gang violence, "word as bond", musical heritage, the church, the Jamaican sound system and so on - an array of social/environmental elements that contributed to the creation and detioration of a young culture. One could go so deep into connecting the mystery of universal laws and principles, the balance of the microcosmic & macrocosmic realm, planetary conciousness and metaphysical planes*
And so The real question is regarding our Cultures (in this day of a virtual global village & a New World Order) and the experiences that it culitvats for one's Self and for one's community: Is the Culture that I harmonize with Living or Dying?

"Im not a human being into no spirtual shit,
Spiritual remanifested as a human that's it" Talib Kweli

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» Because you Kan. Posted by: edith

» RE: Because you Kan. Posted by: anonymous black writer

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Industrial Waste

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Posted by: Jeffersonista on Mar 4, 2007 8:05 AM
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As long as there is a 'music industry' rubish like 'hip-hop' will continue to be the primary toxic waste sold to maximize profits. Thugs are hired and glorified because they are cheap dates, a few hookers, some blow, fame and pin money is all it costs the studios up front. The thugs are too blinded by these trinkets to bother with getting a decent contract or deal. The goal of an industry is to maximize profits by selling something that can be gotten for the least amount of cash and then selling it in a monopolized market place where the industry controls entry into the market. Welcome to the ugly side of fascism. where greed and force conspire to push garbage culture down socienties throats and make them pay for the priviledge. I and none of my friends listend to, watch or buy any so called 'hip hop' crap. Untill the music market if again truley a free market, and the industry does not control access to the market, I will not be buying and instead will continue to consume 'free music' that is better and available under creative commons licenses. Creative commons will do for music what open source did for software.

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check out 50cent.com

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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Mar 4, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

check out 50cent.com

he's got a smoking gun pointed right at the user.
click on a link and bam, you're shot.

i will definitely be checking out some of the artists mentioned here as being political poets and revolutionaries!

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» RE: DO NOT check out 50cent.com Posted by: ekipnrut

» for ekipnrut Posted by: veggiegrrrl

» RE: for ekipnrut..... OK. Posted by: ekipnrut

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Good riddance!

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Posted by: Old Skeptic on Mar 4, 2007 12:52 PM
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I have yet to understand why "rap", "hip-hop" or whatever you want to call it is even called "music". I'm no fan of this type of noise, so I certainly haven't heard all of the various performers, but all that I have heard consist of someone just talking into a microphone with some sort of rhythm playing in the background. I can't see how merely talking into a mike, even in rhymes and rhythmically, constitutes music. There is no melody and no one "sings": the only element of music involved is rhythm. IMO, if this "art" form dies...good riddance!

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» RE: Good riddance! -- "Self-pitying bully music" (rap) answered a question I asked long ago... Posted by: Pat Kittle

» RE: Good riddance! Posted by: madmac10

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YO.. edith..Just one more thing...(straightens rumpled

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Posted by: ekipnrut on Mar 4, 2007 2:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

trench coat collar)....These people...they look to be white...
..and middle class...(taps cigar stub)...whaddya think, Huh????

White supremacist gang gaining clout
By GILLIAN FLACCUS Associated Press Writer
Article Last Updated: 03/04/2007 12:26:09 PM MST
BUENA PARK, Calif.- The white supremacist gang Public Enemy No. 1 began two decades ago as a group of teenage punk-rock fans from upper-middle class bedroom communities in Southern California.
Now, the violent gang that deals in drugs, guns and identity theft is gaining clout across the West after forging an alliance with the notorious Aryan Brotherhood, authorities say.
For full article consult:
Gang

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» violent racist gangs are sick, twisted, and need to be dismanted...no matter what the race Posted by: veggiegrrrl

» So what's the ratio of white gangsters to non-white gangsters? Posted by: Pat Kittle

» RE: So what's the ratio of white gangsters to non-white gangsters? Posted by: anonymous black writer

» RE: So what's the ratio of white gangsters to non-white gangsters? -- "8-1"?? How about that link? Posted by: Pat Kittle

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FINDING AUTHENTICITY

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Posted by: TIEDTWICE on Mar 4, 2007 3:11 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF AN AVID HIP-HOP LISTENER I AM RESPONDING TO YOUR COMMENTS AND JUDGEMENTS OF CONTEMPORARY HIP-HOP MATERIAL.
I WANT TO MAKE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHAT YOU THINK HIP-HOP MUSIC IS, TO REALITY. HIP-HOP IS NOT CAMRON, DMX, AND P. DIDDY. THOSE ARE THE NAMES OF ARTISTS IN THE FIELD OF POP MUSIC. HIP-HOP
AUTHENTIC HIP-HOP LIES UNDER THE RADAR OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE SET TO ONLY DETECT THINGS PORTRAYED ON THE CONGLOMERATE COPORATE SCREEN. I AM EVEN SURPRISED TO SEE YOU COMMENTING ON A WELL-EDUCATED WEB SITE LIKE ALTERNET.
IF YOU WANT TO HEAR SOCIALLY INTELLIGENT, COUNTERHEGEMONINC, AND ANTI-APATHY AND ISOLATION TUNES. CHECK OUT THE CREATIVE WORKS OF AUTHENTIC HIP-HOP ARTISTS SUCH AS MADVILLIAN, DEL THE FUNKYHOMOSAPIEN, ROB SONIC, AND EVEN RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE.
DO NO COMMENT ON FIELDS THAT YOU ARE UNAWARE OF. JUST BY REFFERRING TO POP CHARTS HITS LIKE EMINEM AND T.I. YOU ARE BEING PENETRATED BY CORPORATE HEGEMONY.
THANKS AND DO NO TAKE OFFENSE TO MY STATEMENT. IT TOOK ME YEARS TO REALIZE THEIR WAS OTHER MUSIC OUT THERE.

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» Do you see the that key that says "caps lock"? Press it again to turn it off. Posted by: chomsky

» RE: Do you see the that key that says "caps lock"? Press it again to turn it off. Posted by: TIEDTWICE

» Aight, some confusion, no big deal Posted by: chomsky

» RE: FINDING AUTHENTICITY Posted by: veronica

» RE: FINDING AUTHENTICITY Posted by: TIEDTWICE

» RE: FINDING AUTHENTICITY -- Rap is the "CAPS key" of music, as you unwittingly demonstrate. Posted by: Pat Kittle

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This is not new

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Posted by: lamar on Mar 5, 2007 7:15 AM
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Rap today = hair metal circa 1989

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I frankly don't care what white people think of me

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Posted by: neosoul on Mar 5, 2007 7:36 AM
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I think rap music flourished after st8 outta compton was released in 1988, Hip- Hop as a culture is flourishing worldwide from breakdancing crews, graffti artists bing exhibited in galleries around the world to Emcees doing more compelling Hip- Hop around the world. I wished Americans in general would admit they like sex and violence and rappers are just delivering what the American People of all colors want.

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When are the Amerikan People going to admit

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Posted by: neosoul on Mar 5, 2007 7:58 AM
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They love sex and violence period, Mainstream Rap music however sexist, violent and homophobic is America's ID on display. I may play a different type of music ,( retro Nu Wave R&B/Funk) but watch one minute of American T.V. and what are the most popular shows in this country ?

The Sopranos
Desparate Housewives
CSI
Reality T.V.
Fear Factor

And other stupid t.v. and violent movies like Saw, Final Destination, The Departed (an oscar winner) but these are 'WHITE MOVIES' and t.v. shows and let's not mention Slayer, NIN, and other Punk and Nu Metal but since we are only 12% of the population we get tarred with the brush of racial sterotypes. Gangsta Rap or Mainstream Hip- Hop is American culture at it's worst with it's emphasis on Materialism, Sexual distortion, Homophobia, and worship of violence and fear. I am sick and tired of whites and older blacks making this a racial issue when all the rappers are doing is what Americans do everyday of their lives from talk radio to politics.

I frankly don't care what the majority society thinks of me as a Black Man because I always have thought that whites never wanted to view Afro- Americans as anything else but animals anyway. Mainstream Hip- Hop is on it's death thores because it never restored hip- hop's GOLDEN AGE musical verstility and thank god, it took 15 years, maybe Jadakiss will be on VH-1 bitching like Lita Ford and Jamie Lane about Glam Metal's death. If the only good thing that comes out of this that the older Black Bands AND CLASSIC ACTS get more play and new Black bands who are out there get record deals then it will have been worth it.

BUT WHITE PEOPLE LOVE SEEING BLACK PEOPLE BEING MONSTERS !!!! THAT'S WHY THEY BUY 80% OF ALL HIP- HOP ALBUMS !!!

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» RE: When are the Amerikan People going to admit Posted by: chomsky

» RE: When are the Amerikan People going to admit -- OK, we admit it. Posted by: Pat Kittle

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Growing pains

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Posted by: kevred on Mar 5, 2007 11:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

Nothing here is unique to hip-hop, of course--the same thing's happened to every form of expression with which money can be made. Music, visual art, the written word, dance, you name it. It's not racist, it's just general exploitation for the purpose of creating wealth for people besides the artist. That's capitalism, plain & simple. Or perhaps, that's human nature.

Personally, I think this pronouncement of "death" is several years overdue. Like many forms of music before it, hip-hop/rap has ascended commercially, been turned into mass-produced dreck by record companies (who may well know that people ultimately know the difference, but as long as we keep buying the dreck, they don't care), and spawned an alternative, underground route that avoids the commercial spotlight.

There's always a popular side and an underground side to any art form, and it looks like hip-hop culture as a whole is starting to come to terms with that reality. The degree to which its underground freely intermingles with the underground of other genres/art forms is a sign of health.

Obviously there's already a lot of artistically viable underground hip-hop out there, but it's always good to see a genre emerge from its own bloated, commercial shadow and continue on its artistic way. Almost every other genre has managed it--areas like pop metal, heavy metal, classic rock, and disco are alive and flourishing after becoming stale or mainstream jokes (see the likes of The Darkness, Boris, The Sword, Kings of Leon, Jamiroquai, etc, etc for excellent next-generation artists in those genres).

All this makes me think of a great quote from the brilliant Steve Kilbey of The Church:

"[Poetry] It's probably the art form that has the least money involved, you know--there's no Top 100 Billboard of poets. There's no cocaine & glamour associated with it. People write it for the love of it and people read it for the love of it. Apart from the stylistic tricks you have up your sleeve, there's no way you can enhance your poetry--you can't electronically process it to make it better poetry. So that's what I really like about it. To me it's probably the most pure art form there is."

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Mos Def - Fear Not of Man

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Posted by: chomsky on Mar 6, 2007 1:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

Ooh-ooooooooooohhhh, ooh-ooooooooooooooohh-WHEEEEE!!!

That was for Brooklyn..

Ha ha, we get it everytime

You got me on? Ohh

Shout out to all of my crew, East-West, North-South

All the continent, Europe, all abroad international

Bring it in, bring it in, bring it in, bring it in

It's a lot of things goin on y'all

21st century is comin

20th century almost done

A lot of things have changed

A lot of things have not, mainly us

We gon' get it together right? I believe that

Listen.. people be askin me all the time,

"Yo Mos, what's gettin ready to happen with Hip-Hop?"

(Where do you think Hip-Hop is goin?)

I tell em, "You know what's gonna happen with Hip-Hop?

Whatever's happening with us"

If we smoked out, Hip-Hop is gonna be smoked out

If we doin alright, Hip-Hop is gonna be doin alright

People talk about Hip-Hop like it's some giant livin in the hillside

comin down to visit the townspeople

We +are+ Hip-Hop

Me, you, everybody, we are Hip-Hop

So Hip-Hop is goin where we goin

So the next time you ask yourself where Hip-Hop is goin

ask yourself.. where am I goin? How am I doin?

Til you get a clear idea

So.. if Hip-Hop is about the people

and the.. Hip-Hop won't get better until the people get better

then how do people get better? (Hmmmm...)

Well, from my understanding people get better

when they start to understand that, they are valuable

And they not valuable because they got a whole lot of money

or cause somebody, think they sexy

but they valuable cause they been created by God

And God, makes you valuable

And whether or not you, recognize that value is one thing

You got a lot of societies and governments

tryin to be God, wishin that they were God

They wanna create satellites and cameras everywhere

and make you think they got the all-seein eye

Eh.. I guess The Last Poets wasn't, too far off

when they said that certain people got a God Complex

I believe it's true

I don't get phased out by none of that, none of that

helicopters, the TV screens, the newscasters, the..

satellite dishes.. they just, wishin

They can't really never do that

When they tell me to fear they law

When they tell me to try to

have some fear in my heart behind the things that they do

This is what I think in my mind

And this is what I say to them

And this is what I'm sayin, to you check it

[starts rapping]

All over the world hearts pound with the rhythm

Fear not of men because men must die

Mind over matter and soul before flesh

Angels hold the pen keep a record in time

which is passin and runnin like a caravan trader

The world is overrun with the wealthy and the wicked

But God is sufficient in disposin of affairs

Gunmen and stockholders try to merit my fear

But God is sufficient over plans they prepared

Mos Def in the flesh, where you at, right here

on this place called Earth, holdin down my square

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» RE: Mos Def - Fear Not of Man Posted by: nibirurising

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yes

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Posted by: nibirurising on Mar 6, 2007 2:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

well done here. these are the young voices of all ages and colors of the future. the future is now. live what is in the heart. it will all come to pass. off will burn the mask. the pendulum strikes at twenty midnight.

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A question to all overly judgemental self-righteous critics of hip hop?

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Posted by: anonymous black writer on Mar 7, 2007 12:46 AM
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What is your take on Neo-Nazi hate rap? Is it impressive? When it's all said and done, you Do have a right to your self-righteous opinion, BUT- it is your opinion and not necessarily the only opinion to how music should be. Anyway, that your perspective/opinion is not necessarily better than everybody else.

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Hip Hop has been dead for at least 5 yrs.

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Posted by: starfishNcoffee on Mar 7, 2007 6:56 AM
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And you know it's dead when there is a show called "The white rapper show"

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Thanks DaveyD

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Posted by: DaBear on Mar 7, 2007 9:55 PM
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With thinking like that, no wonder commercial hip-hop appears dead. It's the ideas of the gatekeepers that are dead.

This final line was obviously something 80% of the commenters here missed. Thank the cosmos some commenters know from hiphop and know it's far from dead. Non-artists are always saying this shit or that is dead. Thanks to Dead Prez, The Coup, Michael Franti & Spearhead, all these represent the genuine article.

As a white ex-progrocker (temproary hiatus), I hated hiphop until my kids started groovin to it. I sat down and listened and damn if there weren't the best damned bass licks and rhythmic texture from what I heard. In every genre there's well done stuff and crap. The existence of crap means there's compost, not that the genre is dead. The good shit still smokes and that's all that counts. Now kuntry music, that's some twisted sick dead shit that I wish really would die... like yesterday.

Like I tell my kids, "wear clean draws, every day..."

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Perspective from within another hemisphere

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Posted by: danielsan on Mar 19, 2007 10:41 PM
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Hip Hop isn't dead, the twisted commercialisation, exploitation and major industry stranglehold on Hip Hop has killed itself.

Many independent artists and labels I know are doing well enough for themselves and the only thing that's holding them back now is the complete death of big time commercial industry involvement that still over shadows their efforts.

Things go in cycles and once the majors give up on their so called cornball Hip Hop as a product, more people who feel it will start to seek and find the real stuff from people driven by something other than cash, with a common love for the culture and the music.
The new industry will probably grow and sell itself out in time and then we will start over again, it's happened before already.
How I see it with access to information being hard to control, people charing stuff on the net, people spreading the word globally and all that we have now days, I think that major exploitation will be dead for ever and all that's happening is control is being handed over to the people.

Maybe I'm hopeful but this is the trend I am seeing and it was hope that brought good things in the past. Me myself I'm making my music and hanging in there cause I have faith that in a few years true music will prevail and commercialism will struggle to stay afloat unless it takes on the interests and understanding of the fans and offers them something they can't get or do for themselves.

Anywayz, until all the people in Hip Hop are dead with no children, how can it die? That's like saying Jewish or Islamic culture is dead, or spanish or zulu dialect, whatever.
True, Hip Hop is a baby in comparison but it's born now and that's that. If you saw Gil Scott Heron live in recent years you know Jazz (or what you wanna call it) is still alive and I'm sure rock n roll still lives somewhere too.
Music is music.
As long as people have heart, soul, emotion and spirit, Hip Hop will never die damnit!

Sermon complete..
Out like calculator watches.

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