COMMENTS: 282
Firearm Industry Sets Sights on Young Hunters
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The push is likely motivated by a decline in the number of hunters nationwide. From 1982 to 2001, the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife reported a 22.2 percent drop in licensed hunters. However, by reaching out to lawmakers, concerned sportsmen and state park and wildlife agencies across the country, the industry is managing to reclaim its political and financial future from "anti-gunners," as they call them, with a clear message: "When introducing kids to hunting, earlier is better."
"Studies show that it's harder to introduce children to hunting the older that child gets," says Bill Brassard, managing director of the National Shooting Sports Foundation's (NSSF) Department of Safety and Education. The NSSF is the firearm industry's largest trade association. A "State of the Industry 2007" address from NSSF President Doug Painter, posted recently on their Web site, focuses almost exclusively on the need for young recruits and the association's wide-ranging efforts to reel them in.
One measure of the campaign's success has been the infectious growth of the association's Scholastic Clay Target Program, which organizes skeet and trap shooting contests for elementary to high-school-aged kids. Backed by direct donations from major ammunition and firearm manufacturers including Remington, White Flyer and Berretta, the program boasted 8,300-plus participants in 41 states last year.
"We see it as a gateway sport," said Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center, a DC research and advocacy organization. "The goal is to get the kids hunting and buying firearms." The average hunter, according to NSSF data, spends $17,726.59 on hunting equipment in his or her lifetime.
A second element of the campaign is the promotion of Hunter's Education programs -- both in and out of schools -- through supplying state park and wildlife agencies with program grants and instructional materials.
"The kids think it's neat. They like anything that's new and interesting and different," said John McNeil, the principal of Lincoln Junior High in Plymouth, Indiana. Although the school has introduced hunting during PE classes off and on for years, it wasn't until last fall that it became a formal seminar -- a move that caught the attention of some parents.
Aimee Falls described being "shocked" and "offended" when she looked in her 13-year-old daughter's schoolbag to find a copy of "Today's Hunter." She tried to rally other parents to speak out against the class, with limited success, and called the local media.
"This class teaches them how to use the gun, how to load the gun," she told reporters, "I do not feel comfortable with them knowing this information."
Principal McNeil responded by promising that parents will be asked to give their consent in the future.
In spite of parent concern, Indiana Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officer Ken Dowdle, who teaches the hunting course at Lincoln Junior High, said he has noticed a growing interest in hunting classes: "There probably isn't a county in Indiana that doesn't have it in at least one of their schools."
Classes are becoming more and more prevalent throughout the country, as well. The March issue of Guns and Ammo reported a new program getting off the ground recently in Juneau, Alaska in Floyd Dryden Middle School's sixth-grade class, while in Kansas, the Department of Wildlife and Parks has recently developed a 'Hunters Education in our Schools' program, devoted entirely to creating and promoting the classes in public schools. The effort includes matching hunter's education to state curriculum standards, so that it can easily fit into PE, science or even shop classes.
In Kansas, class instruction includes having students use computer games and either live firearms or Lasershot rifles -- firearms that have been converted to shoot lasers instead of live rounds.
In other places, such as Dowdle's class in Indiana, guns are out of the question. Dowdle limits his props to the Hunter Education books, an occasional defunct or disassembled rifle, and hunting videos -- a popular teaching tool in Indiana and other states. The NSSF creates many of the videos used in hunting classes and shipped over 7,500 last year alone.
Though their teaching methods may be different, conservation officers say they have the same goals in mind: teaching the value of wildlife management for those who choose not to hunt and teaching safety to those who do.
"We want them to know how to safely handle those firearms, or what to do when they come across firearms in the home," said Monica Bickerstaff, coordinator of Kansas' program.
But violence prevention experts say teaching gun safety in order to prevent accidents is counter-intuitive.
"Only 5 percent of gun deaths are accidental," said Deanne Calhoun, Executive Director of Youth Alive, a violence prevention organization in Oakland, California. "It is ridiculous to think there is this type of a program in a school. It isn't a big health issue for kids."
Calhoun pointed to the latest data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which states that while 2,825 children and teens were killed with firearms in 2004, only 143 of those deaths were accidental. Even among the white population, which accounts for the vast majority of hunters, the ratio of suicides and homicides to accidents is 14.5 to one.
"People clearly are profiting off of the violence that is out there," Calhoun added. "What we'd like to do is find a way to turn off the faucet, to stop the guns from getting in the hands of kids in the first place."
Jim Bulger, Hunter Outreach Coordinator for the Colorado Division of Wildlife, agrees that these programs are not a good idea in an urban setting. "In Denver, you don't need a parking lot full of kids with shotguns, but out here, [in a rural area], a kid might need to kill a coyote or two that's bothering his Daddy's livestock."
Bulger says his program has also helped reach out to urban youth, however, in order to offer them exposure to and appreciation for nature.
"We just finished taking eight kids," he said. "They didn't kill a thing all day and they didn't care." He said that they were so appreciative of the experience that one of the youngsters wrote a two-page thank you letter to the man who donated use of his land to the program.
Many hunters argue that without them, many state and federal parks wouldn't even exist.
Many state wildlife agencies depend on hunting licenses and firearm sales to stay afloat, creating an even bigger push for hunting promotion among youth.
"That is the next generation that is going to be buying licenses and equipment, all of which provide funds that go back into wildlife conservation in state agencies," said Brassard of the NSSF.
"Hunting license fees and Pitmann-Robertson [a federal excise tax on firearms] essentially runs the department," said Wayne Doyle, Hunter Education Coordinator for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks.
Thanks to the NSSF's aggressive campaign efforts, hunting licenses probably won't evaporate any time soon. In addition to its core promotional strategy, the NSSF has administered $1.7 million to 33 states in the past four years for projects creating designated land for youth hunting as well as promoting youth hunting through special events and advertising campaigns.
The national Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies hosted an "Industry Summit" last December, bringing together wildlife agency and firearm industry leaders to discuss, according to the AFWA website, "building better communications between parties, pursuing more visible marketing strategies, and gauging the long-term vision and use of these funds."
The NSSF is also increasing related lobbying efforts. Since 2004, the Families Afield initiative has been working to change local laws to offer "additional hunting opportunities for youth." Already, they have succeeded in 12 states.
Laws passed in Michigan and Ohio have instituted an apprentice program, in which young hunters can join their adult counterparts without completing a hunter's education course. In Michigan, legislators additionally lowered the minimum hunting age. Thirty states currently have no minimum.
According to the NSSF, "First year results show real promise: more than 18,000 apprentice licenses were sold in Michigan, plus nearly 10,000 in Ohio in 2006. These 28,000 new hunters suggest a 26 percent jump in the two states' combined population of hunters age 15 or under."
Examples like these abound; yet somehow the NSSF's efforts to seduce young hunters have slipped under the mainstream media's radar -- a surprise, considering the story is not so new. In fact, it was back in 1996 that the NRA's former President Marion Hammer called for "an old-fashioned wrestling match for the hearts and minds of our children." Eleven years later, with the help of the industry, hunters, teachers and other state agents, it looks like they have a fighting chance.
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Posted by: edith on Feb 28, 2007 1:25 AM
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Good for the NRA and other organizations that teach people to be more self sufficient and aware of what the world is really about.
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» And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Ellie1
» How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» What ill effects?
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Check this out!
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» Read the article
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» RE: Check this out!
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» RE: Shooting animals for sport?
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: Some Positive News For Once
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Posted by: Intraspecto on Feb 28, 2007 2:50 AM
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2. Teaching children about firearms is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. Sooner or later, one of them WILL come into contact with any number of the 220 million guns in this nation. It is better that we are proactive so that they may learn safety.
3. It may help these youngsters in the future to know how to shoot a weapon, whether it be for self-defense (a person is a fool to trust the police) or in case of an issue of national defense. (God knows we are not the most popular right now....)
4. It gives people a sense of reality. having to kill something and eat it is a heavy dose of reality for many of us. It was with my first hunt, and I have a greater respect for what I harvest, and certainly do not do it for sport.
5. It shows that with responsible teaching and ethical understanding, the anti-gun folks have nothing to stand on...
Personally, I stopped hunting and farm at this point in time. I do not feel the need to kill something in the wild when I raise and butcher my own meat, and grow foods from my organic garden. As far as the anti-gun idiots are concerned, look it up. Keeping firearms is a necessity in this nation, and always will be, due to the right and responsibility of keeping our government in check- not to mention a constitutionally protected freedom and a natural right of man to be able to defend ones self...
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson
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» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: theairboater
» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: marxalot
» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: Troglodyke
» RE: Hunting is good: No problem with hunting. But how are we
Posted by: SamFox
» Good article!!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: Hunting is good - flawed argument
Posted by: mjglow
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Posted by: candara on Feb 28, 2007 3:32 AM
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» RE: Columbine
Posted by: freedomhawk
» STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: David V
» STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: David V
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: David V
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: candara
» Read up on Columbine...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ead up on Columbine...
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» RE: ead up on Columbine...
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» RE: Columbine
Posted by: edith
» It is becoming widely recognized...
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» RE: Columbine: I'm with Edith on this one.
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» RE: Columbine
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: freedomhawk on Feb 28, 2007 3:49 AM
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I wish that the author had dealt more with the conservation aspect of hunting. These hunting courses teach the children about the important role that hunters play in controlling animal populations. Without responsible hunting, animal populations can grow uncontrollably because the natural predators no longer exist. The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) carefully monitors hunting activities to ensure that all hunters obey the laws and that no animal population is over-hunted.
Hunter safety is not merely about gun safety; it is more importantly about conservation. The next generation of hunters will ensure that we Americans are responsible about our natural resources.
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» RE: Firearm education
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Firearm education: chrisp, you need to
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Firearm education- we're only human
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: soyicecream on Feb 28, 2007 3:57 AM
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» Guns Shoot Both Ways
Posted by: edith
» RE: Guns Shoot Both Ways
Posted by: soyicecream
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Posted by: Swatopluk on Feb 28, 2007 4:24 AM
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1. It keeps/restores the natural balance that has been disturbed by human acitivity (e.g. removal of the natural predators).
2. The animal is killed for consumption as food etc.
[Clarification: self-defense against a predator is not hunting]
Hunting because it is fun to kill (like e.g Cheney does) is in my opinion deeply unethical, and I know no true hunter that does not despise the mere "shootists" who are in it for the thrill and the trophies only.
In a gun-mad culture as the US I consider it wise to teach children gun security and the ethical behaviour that goes with it (where there is no gun tradition, I'd vote against it).
On the other hand I have no sympathy for the described attempts to lure children into the use of guns in order to make them customers of weapon/ammo manufacturers or to increase the political clout of the NRA.
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» Hunting isn't should both for sport & food
Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Hunting isn't should both for sport & food
Posted by: Swatopluk
» Cheney and Bush hunt as a sign of mental illness
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: David V on Feb 28, 2007 4:33 AM
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Then why the outrage over hunting? Ah, because you don't PERSONALLY care for it, and therefore you don't want anyone ELSE to do it?
How very REPUBLICAN of you all.
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» RE: What is wrong with this?!?
Posted by: mazel
» RE: What is wrong with this?!? Fo one thing, you're use of the term
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: What is wrong with this?!?
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: What is wrong with this?!?
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: SteveBreeze on Feb 28, 2007 4:42 AM
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» RE: the NRA wants to sell more guns
Posted by: freedomhawk
» If you buy a gun from God, get a Guarantee that there will be habitat left to hunt in!
Posted by: edith
» RE: the NRA wants to sell more guns
Posted by: SteveBreeze
» a little context
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: a little context
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: a little context
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: the NRA wants to sell more guns
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: Windwhistler on Feb 28, 2007 4:43 AM
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» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: mazel
» What brand of rifle was shoody and why was it pointing in the direction of your friend?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: What brand of rifle was shoody and why was it pointing in the direction of your friend?
Posted by: Ellie1
» Deer Me!
Posted by: edith
» PBR Me!
Posted by: underground
» RE: Neanderthal Activity??? For a truer perspective about how dangerous
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: Windwhistler
» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Neanderthal Activity, you are so farther evolved than us mere mortals
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: solrev on Feb 28, 2007 5:12 AM
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» RE: be prepared: We have the radical, oil company sponsered,
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» RE: be prepared
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: be prepared
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Feb 28, 2007 5:53 AM
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If all children were brought up with a respectful appreciation of the proper use of firearms, it would help prevent there misuse.
Proper conditioning may be used to prevent the violent attitude many children grow up with because they have not been taught adult responsibilities.
'
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» RE: Message For Anti Firearm groups. Also much of the
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: gellero on Feb 28, 2007 6:05 AM
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I like guns, I liked them in high school. My parents would never dream of owning one. I came from an urban, brainwashed, cultured, democratic - voting family.
People who won't have guns are setting themselves up to be VICTIMS. No kids in my house now.....so I sleep with a .38 by the bed. And why not?
Funny how no one complains about wealthy people and politicians having ARMED bodyguards. Most of us can't afford them. Hence......GUNS.
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» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: Troglodyke
» Possibly...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» protection
Posted by: gellero
» Better hope, then..
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: PopRox80
» TO POP ROX
Posted by: gellero
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: PirateJesus
» NOT QUITE
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 28, 2007 6:10 AM
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Teaching kids to be responsible hunters and shooters isn't a bad thing; neither is raising your kids the way you choose and getting your authoritarian noses out of your neighbors' rights to do the same.
Where did all the pro-choice advocates go?
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» RE: Wow. The authoritarian anti-choice crowd comes out in force! And on a progressive site!
Posted by: PopRox80
» Suggestion: read...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» ??????
Posted by: gellero
» RE: ??????
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 28, 2007 6:22 AM
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» hilarious!!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» human tastes like spam, or so I here
Posted by: AdamG
» Hey, if you can't eat it, don't hunt it. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: lol
Posted by: tlCampbell
» I'm glad you all have a good sense of humor.
Posted by: WhatNow?
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Feb 28, 2007 6:31 AM
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We can hope also that this program could be focused on certain animals. Like cull some of the whitetail in problem areas that have become overcrowded due to no predators and growth of cities. And fish for those invasive species and catch-n-release all natives.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Feb 28, 2007 6:31 AM
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I grew up in a time and place where every boy I knew had a .22 by the time he was around 12. We all had BB guns VERY early. I think I was in 2nd grade when I got mine (a really sweet red rider that still had a wooden stock). Out of all the kids I grew up with, not a one has been involved in gun crime.
The problem ISN'T guns. If it were, then the prevalence of knives in EVERY SINGLE HOME IN THE COUNTRY would have caused a raging epedimic of stabbings. The problem is not hunting, either. The problem is a society that glorifies gun violence. Guns do not fire themselves. Guns do not aim themselves. People aim them and fire them.
I don't own any guns, nor do I much want to. I don't hunt. I tried it a couple of times and found it just wasn't for me. I don't approve of hunting for sport... but I don't have a problem with hunting for food.
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» RE: Yeah...
Posted by: Ellie1
» Somewhat disagree
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: sausage on Feb 28, 2007 6:35 AM
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The mother quoted, one Aimee Falls, is promoting continued ignorance about firearms. By keeping knowledge of guns occult she promotes the mystique of firearms and the essentially masculine cult of the gun barrel. Attitudes like the speaker's transform a mundane object into a cult fetish; the talisman of the outlaw, the bad boy.
Truthfully, I'd rather be in a room with a thousand armed NRA members than in one with one gun packing gang-banger. Why? Because at the very least, the thousand NRA members know how their firearm works, they treat it with the respect due a deadly weapon and know enough not to wildly wave it around, point it in other peoples' faces while keeping it fully loaded. Firearm safety programs work.
And, really, as for gun control, it is not the guns which need controlling, it's the shooter.
Shooting firearms should be treated similarly to the state scantioned privilege of driving an automobile. A citizen who owns a firearm would be required to take a state scantioned firearm safety test, purchase a shooters license (something I envision as similar to a driver's license which would need to be updated periodically), and some form of liability insurance. As far as I'm concern she or he could own as many guns as she or he could afford.
The number of firearms possessed is not a real issue but responsible usage is. Who owns firearms and how they are used is more important that how many and of what type can be owned and where.
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» Right on!!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: This is wrong?!And More wrong...
Posted by: Blade
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 28, 2007 6:54 AM
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» How very easily scared you seem.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: How very easily scared you seem.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Relax. It's very difficult to smile and be fat, dumb and happy when you've got peple...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: DUH?
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 28, 2007 6:54 AM
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» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: Troglodyke
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...Hey! I represent that remark!
Posted by: SamFox
» Another reason to hate vegetarians
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Another reason to hate hypocritical meat-eaters
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Another reason to hate hypocritical meat-eaters
Posted by: YogiBear
» Correction
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: hunting grounds are dwindling due to
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: hunting grounds are dwindling due to
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: dikaiosyne on Feb 28, 2007 7:18 AM
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» RE: Hunting as really good sport
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Hunting as really good sport
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: Hunting as really good sport: polyquat50-So should the cycle of
Posted by: SamFox
» just don't feed the right-wing trolls
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Pros and Cons
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Go with high power
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Yes.. who else...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Go with high power: NRA buffs-
Posted by: SamFox
» The Video Star
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Hunting as really good sport: Go with the
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Hunting as really good sport: Go with the(Wrong place!)
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Hunting as really good sport for firm-wristed gents
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Hunting as really good sport for firm-wristed gents
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: Joycep on Feb 28, 2007 7:25 AM
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Posted by: undertheradarmang on Feb 28, 2007 7:42 AM
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There's nothing special about luring deer year round with feed, then when it's open season you sit up in your deer blind blasting away. Sure, its takes some skill to be an accurate shot, I wont deny that. If you really want to hunt, learn how to use a bow and arrow. Then feel free to go out looking for bears or bigger game. You see, there's more of a challenge in that. I promise I won't cry if I hear of some tragic accident where someone was mauled to death.
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» RE: Lazy
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» RE: Lazy
Posted by: erichoffer
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 28, 2007 8:13 AM
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» Satire is wasted on the ignorant
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» RE: Satire is wasted on the ignorant
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: anarchistecogeek on Feb 28, 2007 8:39 AM
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I regard the increasing numbers of kids getting interested in hunting as a GOOD thing. I, like many environmentalist activists, first nurtured my love of nature growing up in a family with a tradition of hunting and fishing.
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Posted by: djnoll on Feb 28, 2007 9:02 AM
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Courses like these must be taught. We may not like that thought, and it may not be used for hunting by many who take the classes, but the knowledge may be invaluable in the future. I am not so foolish as to think that the motivations of the gun manufacturers or the NRA are altruistic. I am a realist who sees that hunting for our food or protecting our homes in the near future may be the difference between survival and not. While I would rather that Nature handled the thinning of herds with natural predators such as wolves and cougars, I also understand that responsible hunting can be done within reason. (Aerial shooting or bounties are barbaric and disgusting)
Should we fear that these classes will lead to another Columbine or worse? It do not think that should be as much of a concern as the accessiblity of students to guns on the streets or the fact that most children who get hurt with guns do so because they have no knowledge on how to handle a gun safely. Parents who allow guns in the home should be sure that they are properly secured; that children cannot get access to them; and that their children are properly trained in their use when they feel the child is old enough to understand the responsibilities that go with gun ownership.
So, while I do not agree with these classes as a marketing tool for the gun industry, I do believe that in today's world, this class is an important one for our young people if they are to be safe and prepared for the future.
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Posted by: Praxis on Feb 28, 2007 9:58 AM
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True, the NRA has basically become an adjunct of the GOP, but knee-jerk liberals' anti-hunting attitudes helped drive them in that direction. I know a guy who hates Bush but reflexively votes Republican because he's concerned that the Democrat Party will try and take his guns away, and I'm sure he's not alone. Pols like Diane Feinstein support corporate globalization and imperialist adventurism, but are considered progressive because they want gun control. Radicals (folks that wish to address the root of problems rather than liberals who prefer to dress up a pig with some lipstick) shouldn't be taken in by this anti-gun program, which would disarm the people and leave activists to be rounded up like European Jews in WWII if push ever comes to shove in this country. The right is already armed to the teeth. I don't trust the police and military to protect my rights; those very forces slaughtered hundreds of thousands of good people in Latin America over the last generation. The Dirty War in Argentina never would have happened if the working class had been armed. I'd rather oppose gun registration and restriction and make common cause with rural workers who do a little hunting and fishing against the corporate-financed duopoly.
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Posted by: tlCampbell on Feb 28, 2007 10:12 AM
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My problem with the situation however, is that why is it okay to supplement part of physical education in schools with hunting courses? As it is, we are struggling to keep the current standard school curriculum in place such as PE, music, arts, and other valuable educational programs, I don’t feel that we should be sacrificing one of these areas just to promote hunting. If it were strictly gun safety that needed to be taught, I could appreciate that, but this to me just seems like a marketing ploy to generate funds for yet another industry.
Teaching children about and getting them involved in conservation efforts does not require hunting courses, this can and is often done through numerous other school activities that are already in place, which also encourages respect and compassion for all creatures and the environment.
If the desired affect is to generate more hunters or at least gun toting people, then why not do the same thing the girl/boy scouts do and send out fliers to the schools advertising their programs and activities, rather than absorbing themselves directly into the schools.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 28, 2007 10:25 AM
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An earlier poster mentioned the need to preserve school programs such as Physical Education. I would add the need to add a really worthwhile and less monied program to help people improve their Basic Interpersonal Communication Skills along with it. Let's face it, America is getting more obese and from teen dating violence happening to 1 in 3 teens to the 50% divorce rate, our country's well-being isn't going to get any better by turning kids into gun-toters and potentially heavily armed gangsters.
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Posted by: mistery509 on Feb 28, 2007 10:28 AM
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As if there is not enough killing already. As if there isn't enough guns in the country. As if there aren't enough people in jails for murder and battery.
Who are you people?
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» Who are you?
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Actually...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: edith
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: mistery509
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: edith
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: mistery509
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Posted by: Diego on Feb 28, 2007 10:41 AM
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Having spent 6 years in the midst of the hunting culture of N.Michigan I can tell you most of these clowns would use dynamite, if necessary, to "get their deer". They try and tell you it's all about heritage or sportsmanship or game management or, (this one kills me), a great family experience, when it's really just about killing a defenseless animal for fun. Any way they can.
The fact that the loudmouth Second Ammendment scholars at the NRA can influence the outcome of an election is a sad commentary on how far the United States has devolved.
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» influencing elections
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: God-given right to own guns??
Posted by: mountainsrock
» God-given right to own guns!!!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: influencing elections
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Feb 28, 2007 11:28 AM
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» RE: The war crazy Republican party needs the NRA
Posted by: Mojoe
» Warmongers Need a Disarmed Public
Posted by: edith
» RE: Warmongers Need a Disarmed Public
Posted by: polyquat50
» don't be so dense
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Warmongers Need a Disarmed Public
Posted by: edith
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Posted by: icj on Feb 28, 2007 11:29 AM
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However, I also grew up in Southern Idaho where hunting is a way of life. Many people I knew and know hunt every year, use every single piece of meat, the hides, etc and I have no problem with this kind of hunting. Also, teaching gun safety in a country such as ours filled with crazies who have more guns that some small nations is a good thing. A kid I'd known for years accidentally shot himself in the head last summer and some elemental gun safety could have prevented this tragedy.
But a distinction does need to be made between people who use hunting to supplement their larders and who have some respect for the nature they are in and those who fly in from other places to "get the big one" to put the head on their wall. My husband worked in Alaska for many years and there are charters that will take you in close enough to shore that you can shoot bears, deer, elk, etc from the deck of the boat. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of and I have no respect or support for this so-called sport.
I also think it is ingenuous to claim that hunting somehow provides a unique interaction with nature. If you really care about getting urban kids into nature, I'm not sure how killing some of nature's grandest creatures is better than taking kids on nature hikes, bird walks, etc, etc.
Last but not least, yes hunting help to control prey populations. However, these prey populations get out of control in the first place because of the expasion of human habitat into nature and overzealous hunting of predators. But most of the hunters I know vociferously (and sometimes violently) resist any sort of predator re-introduction. So, if they're hunting to help the populations it seems hypocritical to oppose predator reintroduction.
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» RE: A mountain girl's perspective...
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: A mountain girl's perspective...
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: DaBear on Feb 28, 2007 11:56 AM
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Hunting? Well, I grew up with guns, grew up patrolling 375 acres of woods to keep out hunters without permits to hunt on that property and discovered how easy it is to get shot at and desperately want to put a bullet in some asshat's head in retaliation.
It's not the guns, it's the perverse 'Merkaan cult-ure that makes those guns problematic. I was never shot at by a reasonable hunter, trained or otherwise. I was assaulted many times, however, by drunk, redneck assholes (some of whom I personally knew from school) and numerous untrained butholes who came up from the MYC or Philly trying to "bag the'seffs a buck" to hang on their suburban walls.
As for any actual hunting, I learned to hunt in the Lenape tradition from an indigenous hunter (bow & arrow, not the pissant lazy route with a gun) and did that successfully only once. I ate with gratitude and perhaps I would be able to do it again if I absolutely had to (and would actaully welcome a gun in that scenario, because it's tough to keep a steady hand when you're fuckin' hungry already, let alone having to run the 15 - 20 km before the creature falls). But knowing that, having experienced that, I'm not interested at this stage of suburban existence to take another life to feed my own through hunting. As far as gun safety is concerned, it's a no brainer, if you're going to own a gun, you'd better know how to use it safely. That's far more important than waiting periods. IMHO, the only need to for gun control (or bans) is the sick right-wing asshat cult that tends to own them. Otherwise we should have the right to march on the white house and demand impeachment at the point of the guns since that's why the second amendment exists in legislative intent anyway. If we're not going to do that... all this angst is useless.
My bigger concern is the NASCAR, soldier-cult in this country playing with firesticks because some rich white asshole in the NRA wants to keep his income up. To them I say, go get a fucking real job and quit yer damned whinin'!
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» RE: It's the capitalistic nature of the push that's freaky
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: jeffersonian on Feb 28, 2007 1:08 PM
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Posted by: rem280guy on Feb 28, 2007 1:25 PM
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For those who oppose hunting, if you are strict vegetarian I can respect your position, if not agree with it. For the rest of you, do you think your cheeseburger committed suicide?
Education of the safe use of firearms is a problem in what way? The downward trend of accidental, (actually they should be called negligent, because accidents occur only in the presence of unsafe practices), shootings is a direct result of increased education on the safe use of firearms.
For the deluded people who think the democans are the solution instead of just the flip side of the republicrat problem; and who further think that 'gun control' is grand; you must ask yourselves one question. Is a USA where only the police and the military are armed a good thing? Would you like such a nation under the present government? Have you really thought that one all the way through? Maybe you'd care to spend a year in North Korea and get back to me on just how well 'gun control' works for them.
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
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» RE: NOT WANTING TO BE CONFUSED BY THE FACTS?
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: NOT WANTING TO BE CONFUSED BY THE FACTS?
Posted by: rem280guy
» RE: NOT WANTING TO BE CONFUSED BY THE FACTS?
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: LONG LIVE THE FACTS
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: AS TO SELF EVIDENT LOGIC
Posted by: chrisp.
» Here is some evidence that you ignored because it didn't fit your rhetoric.
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Here is some evidence that you ignored because it didn't fit your rhetoric.
Posted by: chrisp.
» What about the Swiss?
Posted by: freedomhawk
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Posted by: russianblue1 on Feb 28, 2007 1:31 PM
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» Don't care?
Posted by: freedomhawk
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Posted by: rem280guy on Feb 28, 2007 1:34 PM
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As for those who think bow hunting is more sporting than firearms, I would have to disagree. I've seen deer harvested during the rifle season a month after the bow season with abcessed arrowheads imbedded in their hip. I saw one deer with an apparent neurological problem a month after bow season as evidenced by seizures. A post mortem exam by the game wardens revealed an arrowhead imbedded in the skull that cause a brain infection. I saw another deer starving, with an arrow throught the roof of its mouth with the point in the deer's tongue. Some sporting bow hunter failing to follow up on their poor shots caused all of these problems. Firearms are far more humane. I have no time for bow hunters, period!
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» RE: DID YOU KNOW? bow hunters suck
Posted by: mountainsrock
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Posted by: deeper on Feb 28, 2007 2:06 PM
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Posted by: Tankerdeath on Feb 28, 2007 2:52 PM
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Thank Goddess. Maybe we're not doomed, after all.
BTW, I'm firmly in the Libertarian/Gun Freak camp. An armed society is a polite society ;)
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» RE: I hate to introduce love and understanding into a good debate...
Posted by: underground
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 28, 2007 3:14 PM
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:-)
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» and "Terrible Ted" must be lovin' this...
Posted by: realmuzik
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Posted by: hebridesgal on Feb 28, 2007 4:25 PM
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» good point
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: throck on Feb 28, 2007 5:00 PM
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» RE: mr.
Posted by: mite
» RE: mr. CORRECT!
Posted by: sphoenix
» Bingo! You Got It!
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 28, 2007 6:35 PM
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» ??????
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: bambino on Feb 28, 2007 7:24 PM
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» BAMBINO??
Posted by: gellero
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: Blade
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: i hate hunters crisply...
Posted by: Blade
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: Blade
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Speaking of cruelty...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Speaking of cruelty...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» p.s. yogibear
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: p.s. yogibear
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Speaking of ecological footprints...
Posted by: chrisp.
» It depends on whose diets you are comparing.
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: It depends on whose diets you are comparing.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I was responding to chrispy
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: I was responding to chrispy
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I was responding to chrispy
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: responding to Adam
Posted by: chrisp.
» Blood sport
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: i hate hunters, at least the deer I shot had a chance...
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: underground
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Posted by: YogiBear on Feb 28, 2007 8:09 PM
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Only 5 percent of gun deaths are accidental...
...while 2,825 children and teens were killed with firearms in 2004, only 143 of those deaths were accidental. Even among the white population, which accounts for the vast majority of hunters, the ratio of suicides and homicides to accidents is 14.5 to one.
The statistics used in this piece bothered me, because the author seems to be against guns.
Problem is, the very stats he uses to prove that most deaths aren't accidental are also used by the anti-gun crowd to criticize guns in the home because of accidents. Except in those stories, suicides are lumped in with accidents in a general "non-murder" death-in-the-home category. This author, to prove a different point, moves all that suicide data out of that category to make his statistical point.
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Posted by: jesusonthedashboard on Feb 28, 2007 9:40 PM
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on the one hand, a heavily armed population is less easy to march off to concentration camps, less easy to threaten; but on the other hand, a heavily armed population inevitably shoots itself up a la columbine style and the countless other tragedies and accidents.
i think even a hardcore anti-gun person would have to admit that had european jews been a gun culture, they would stood a better chance of defending themselves against the nazis.
question: is there anyone left who trusts our government enough to advocate a full disarming of the US population?
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» Germans were at no time better armed then when the Nazis took over..
Posted by: Swatopluk
» You must be reading... I have no idea!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Original printed paper beats quotes everytime
Posted by: Swatopluk
» And for the record...
Posted by: Swatopluk
» Yes! The printed word proves me right!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Discussion pointless
Posted by: Swatopluk
» I won?
Posted by: freedomhawk
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 28, 2007 10:07 PM
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I can't be for taking away people's firearms because it is one of the steps that totalitarian regimes like to take. Being at the mercy of a dumbass hunter probably wouldn't be any worse than being at the mercy of the ATF and FBI at Ruby Ridge.
I don't think much of most hunters I see. The bums drive their big ass truck way out in the woods and then walk a little ways to ambush some game. They may seed an area to attract the wildlife and who knows what other bs they do. To me it's lazy and cruel. I might have some respect for them if they actually walked all the way to where they hunt and never used any bait. Alot of the fishermen in my area are the same way. They "need" thousands of dollars of equipment to catch some bass or crappie. What a bunch of bums.
I don't like this being done in public schools either. I don't have any problem with people teaching their children gun safety but I don't want our tax dollars going to something like this. I guess as lousy as some schools are teaching mathematics, science, and simple english maybe they do need to be taught to hunt so they'll have some way to feed themselves.
Hunting does help the environment at times in different ways. It can be alot more merciful for an animal to be shot at times instead of overpopulating an area and having massive die offs from disease and starvation. And funds raised from hunting do at times help to preserve wilderness areas. I am all for both of those aspects.
As for some of these nutcases and rednecks with guns, we all better watch out. I've seen some bad behavior and heard alot of stories about even worse. I've known hunters I think are good people but I've met more that I think nothing of whatsoever.
I wouldn't doubt if the NRA pushes this crap to try to ensure future funds and that's just sick. Leave the hunting to the woods for friends and family and stop the poachers and trespassers. And last but not least this crap doesn't belong in school.
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Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 28, 2007 10:14 PM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 1, 2007 7:16 AM
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My dad took the gun and through it in the lake.
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» RE: lesson from my German grandfather
Posted by: Carl Street
» Very few were like your grandfather
Posted by: edith
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Posted by: mjglow on Mar 1, 2007 8:24 AM
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» RE: That picture...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: rem280guy on Mar 1, 2007 1:13 PM
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Today, good news on a couple of fronts. First, new statistics from the National Safety Council shows that accidents with firearms remain at record lows. Even more significantly, accidents involving youths continue to decline - significantly.
The trend is especially positive as the numbers of firearms owners climbs, giving credibility to the idea that training new gun owners helps assure their safety as they progress in shooting.
The 2007 NSF's "Safety Facts" report shows a 40 percent decrease in accidental firearms-related fatalities in the period from 1995 through 2005. It also shows gun accidents involving children age fourteen and under declined sixty nine percent from 1995 through 2003.
The council's most recent stats show 109,277 U.S. residents dying in accidents of all types in 2005. Less than 1 percent involved firearms. As you might imagine, motor vehicles were the highest fatality rate, with poisoning and falls joining the auto to account for seventy five percent of all accidental deaths.
These statistics are also verified by findings of the Centers for Disease Control. The CDC findings show that all four regions of the United States have enjoyed significant declines in the numbers of firearms-related fatalities.
There were 730 accidental firearms fatalities in 2005; forty percent fewer than the 1,225 deaths in 1995. And the numbers of firearms related fatalities continue to show the largest percentage decrease of all measured types of accident fatalities.
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» RE: FACTS, NOT FICTION
Posted by: Blade
» RE: FACTS, NOT FICTION
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: rem280guy on Mar 1, 2007 1:35 PM
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James Butler Hickock, AKA 'Wild Bill'
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» RE: Quote to ponder
Posted by: edith
» Roosevelt
Posted by: Mal'ak
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Posted by: Carl Street on Mar 1, 2007 2:49 PM
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BTW, my family fled German militarism in the last century -- unfortunately, not all of us -- and I am VERY sensitive to the bubble-headed whining of those whose political and historical ignorance could leave us all defenseless here -- and with NO place to flee this time!
Die klugen leben von den dummen; und die dummen von ihrer arbeit! Dummkopf!
In short, GET A CLUE!
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» My family left Europe for freedom
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Freedomhawk you have it half right
Posted by: Carl Street
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Posted by: ibilde on Mar 1, 2007 4:50 PM
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This piece just makes no sense to me. It juxtaposes facts that bear no relation to one-another and cites quotes that state facts that have no connection.
Poor Colleen, for example, has her knickers in a wad because kids are taught gun safety. That's like being upset that kids take driver's education. After all, the leading cause of death for young men under twenty five is auto accidents, so let's ban it.
The statement that of all the deaths of kids due to firearms only 143 were accidental has no relevance what-so-ever. Adolescent social misfits that turn on classmates with Dad's guns aren't likely to be the ones that the advocacy groups will appeal to. And just think for a moment how many of those accidental deaths might have been prevented if gun safety classes had been seen by those unfortunate kids that were responsible for those tragedies.
The tone of this article is puts forth the same type argument that fundamentalists of all stripes propound. That is that being for something is being for its abuse. For example, religious fundamentalists believe that sex education will lead to promiscuity and anti-drug folks beleive that clean needle exchanges will foster a rise in drug use, even though statistics show otherwise. Ignorance in not bless!
So, folks, my point is that an educated person in a safe person, whether behind the wheel, in the sack, or in the field, and the younger the education starts, the better.
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» IT'S THE AGENDA....STUPID
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 1, 2007 4:53 PM
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Clearly since the ban criminals have not found it difficult to get guns and the balance has not shifted in the interest of public safety....
In the four years from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century....
A recent study of all the countries of western Europe has found that in 2001 Britain had the worst record for killings, violence and burglary, and its citizens had one of the highest risks in the industrialized world of becoming victims of crime....
SO MUCH FOR GUN CONTROL!!!!!
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» AND OPEN IMMIGRATION
Posted by: gellero
» RE: LONG LIVE GUN CONTROL...
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: LONG LIVE GUN CONTROL...MORE FACTS
Posted by: chrisp.
» I don't think that you will like these facts, chrisp
Posted by: freedomhawk
» failed everywhere else? News to me
Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: facts that don't fit your rethoric
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: gellero on Mar 1, 2007 6:11 PM
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» RE: DRACULA'S CASTLE
Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: DRACULA'S CASTLE
Posted by: gellero
» RE: DRACULA'S CASTLE
Posted by: Swatopluk
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Posted by: ckenn on Mar 1, 2007 7:01 PM
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How is it that you can't teach sex education in some schools, you can't teach evolution in some schools, you can't teach world geography, you can't teach maths or science to a world standard in your schools but you can teach children to handle lethal weapons and you can teach them to kill living animals?
When will you realise that there is a reason why the US leads the world in both numbers of firearm deaths and the rate of firearm deaths?.....it's this paranoid obsession with guns in all their forms and the misguided belief that somehow the 2nd Amendment entitles every lunatic to own an armory.
Join the 21st century and give your guns the bullet
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» RE: Where are the priorities
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Where are the priorities
Posted by: chrisp.
» Priorities
Posted by: Mal'ak
» AUSTRALIAN SOCIETY
Posted by: gellero
» RE: homo genious indeed!
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: joshuawelch on Mar 1, 2007 7:38 PM
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Posted by: Carl Street on Mar 2, 2007 9:01 AM
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Unfortunately, I CANNOT recirprocate. I suggest you re-read the writings of the founding fathers of this nation as, apparently, you missed their point regarding the second ammendment.
Synoptically, they were UTTERLY OPPOSED to a strong military and standing armies and considered them a consumate danger to freedom and liberty. By design, they ONLY supported a SMALL cadre officer corps.
Their plan for protection of this nation was that EVERY INDIVIDUAL was to be armed and a member of the militia -- an independent ad hoc irregular defense force. Thus, providing any invading enemy with a prickly porcupine of innumerable armed enemies that COULD NOT be defeated by an organized military forces. And, while those militia might not "win" a war in a conventional sense; eventually, the enemy would find any invasion to be too expensive to maintain.
They based this on their proven success in defeating the British (the superpower of their day) in the American Revolution. And, their stance was MORE than justified in that the defeat of the British was accomplished even though only about 20% of colonial residents actively supported the American Revolution. So it stood to reason that with an independent militia representing 100%, their stance was a sound military defense strategy.
Would such a plan work in today's high-tech, smart-weapon world? You BET-- regardless of the smoke-screen provided by self-serving military-industrial government sources, THAT is exactly what defeated the USA in Vietnam and is defeating us in Iraq.
All you junior-league arm-chair history channel john waynes please spare me your comments. I KNOW first-hand what I am speaking about. I served from 8 aug 66 to 7 aug 72 including stints in the 101st Airborne and was an instructor at Ft. Lewis WA -- my specialty was Techniques of Guerrilla warfare -- so I do NOT want to hear ignorant comments from wannabee idiots whose only combat experience is fighting their wife for the remote control.
Hopefully, this clarifies the Second Amendment for ALL -- bubble-headed, touchy-feely, doo-gooders and centralized, standing-army, military-industrial warfare, "super patriots" -- both of whom are unwittingly undermining this nation and cutting their own throats as well as the rest of ours.
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» THANK YOU!
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» I am glad that we still agree
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Posted by: gellero on Mar 2, 2007 8:15 PM
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 3, 2007 7:36 AM
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The are simularities between sex and gun ownership.
You will come into contact with one of those things some day.
Improper use could lead to a life changing experience or death.
Education at an early age can prevent a catastrophe later.
Now go play safe and for gods sake! Watch were you point that thing.
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Posted by: ES3 on Mar 3, 2007 8:07 PM
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As a proud life member of the NRA, I will continue to support and promote gun ownership and all shooting sports. Remember that one of the first things Hitler did was require registration and then confiscation of all personal firearms. And next time you're confronted by a mugger, go ahead and talk him to death.
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Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 4, 2007 10:29 AM
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If we taught kids right from wrong at a early age we would see less violence but instead parents let there kids shoot with video games which kids think or want to imitate. My kids learned to shoot and respect a gun. They knew when a animal was shot it could not regenerate itself. By the way mine learned to shoot before they learned how to play video games. I knew I could take them in the woods and not get myself shot by them or that they would shoot there self. If you choice not to shoot a gun and deprive your kids the ability and challenge of shooting one and what would you do if your both at home and there is a home invasion. Die? Probably
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 8, 2007 2:08 AM
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www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/asc/ASC2004/ASC2004_slideshow.ppt
Now, they did not give the raw statistics, as did the Fed Bureau of Justice, it was a PowerPoint slide show. But it was quite academic, and supposedly objective. It showed the gun restrictions had at best, no effect, and at worst, a bad effect. And they spent million of bucks collecting the guns, and created a whole new bureaucracy, which we sure don't need.
While the USA's gun crimes are dropping, probably due to the laws permitted concealed carry of handguns. Suicide deaths, by far the greatest deaths by guns, thus not a matter of public safety, was not affected by gun control, either. Check it out, ladies. On you own.
On a personal note, all stats aside. I have been accosted and pistol whipped, robbed and worse while unarmed. I was lucky to come out of it alive. But one time in Chicago, the only other time I was accosted by thugs, I did have a Charter Arms five shot 44mag revolver on me, as I was paying workers cash on Friday evenings in bad neighborhoods. The gun was not licensed, or legal in any way, except in my, by then, quite experienced mind. I was accosted as I sat in my truck counting cash out. A thug pounded on the passenger window opposite me, pointing at me to open the door, as he brandished a club like object threatening to break the window. I simply reached in the breast pocket in my flight jacket, pulled out the "Bulldog", and pointed it at him. He disappeared, instantly. That is enough stats for me. My guys got paid, and I went home to my wife and child, safely. Happy trails, or trials, Blade.
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Posted by: edith on Feb 28, 2007 1:25 AM
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Good for the NRA and other organizations that teach people to be more self sufficient and aware of what the world is really about.
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» And it will be great for
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: And it will be great for
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Ellie1
» How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: How did my steak get on my plate?
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» What ill effects?
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Check this out!
Posted by: russianblue1
» Read the article
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Check this out!
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Shooting animals for sport?
Posted by: MTguy
» RE: And it will be great for
Posted by: Blade
» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: And it will be great for
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» RE: Some Positive News For Once
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Posted by: Intraspecto on Feb 28, 2007 2:50 AM
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2. Teaching children about firearms is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do. Sooner or later, one of them WILL come into contact with any number of the 220 million guns in this nation. It is better that we are proactive so that they may learn safety.
3. It may help these youngsters in the future to know how to shoot a weapon, whether it be for self-defense (a person is a fool to trust the police) or in case of an issue of national defense. (God knows we are not the most popular right now....)
4. It gives people a sense of reality. having to kill something and eat it is a heavy dose of reality for many of us. It was with my first hunt, and I have a greater respect for what I harvest, and certainly do not do it for sport.
5. It shows that with responsible teaching and ethical understanding, the anti-gun folks have nothing to stand on...
Personally, I stopped hunting and farm at this point in time. I do not feel the need to kill something in the wild when I raise and butcher my own meat, and grow foods from my organic garden. As far as the anti-gun idiots are concerned, look it up. Keeping firearms is a necessity in this nation, and always will be, due to the right and responsibility of keeping our government in check- not to mention a constitutionally protected freedom and a natural right of man to be able to defend ones self...
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-Thomas Jefferson
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» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: theairboater
» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: marxalot
» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: Troglodyke
» RE: Hunting is good: No problem with hunting. But how are we
Posted by: SamFox
» Good article!!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Hunting is good
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: Hunting is good - flawed argument
Posted by: mjglow
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Posted by: candara on Feb 28, 2007 3:32 AM
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» RE: Columbine
Posted by: freedomhawk
» STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: David V
» STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: David V
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: David V
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID COMMENT
Posted by: candara
» Read up on Columbine...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ead up on Columbine...
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: ead up on Columbine...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Columbine
Posted by: edith
» It is becoming widely recognized...
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» RE: Columbine: I'm with Edith on this one.
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Columbine
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: freedomhawk on Feb 28, 2007 3:49 AM
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I wish that the author had dealt more with the conservation aspect of hunting. These hunting courses teach the children about the important role that hunters play in controlling animal populations. Without responsible hunting, animal populations can grow uncontrollably because the natural predators no longer exist. The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) carefully monitors hunting activities to ensure that all hunters obey the laws and that no animal population is over-hunted.
Hunter safety is not merely about gun safety; it is more importantly about conservation. The next generation of hunters will ensure that we Americans are responsible about our natural resources.
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» RE: Firearm education
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Firearm education: chrisp, you need to
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Firearm education- we're only human
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: soyicecream on Feb 28, 2007 3:57 AM
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» Guns Shoot Both Ways
Posted by: edith
» RE: Guns Shoot Both Ways
Posted by: soyicecream
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Posted by: Swatopluk on Feb 28, 2007 4:24 AM
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1. It keeps/restores the natural balance that has been disturbed by human acitivity (e.g. removal of the natural predators).
2. The animal is killed for consumption as food etc.
[Clarification: self-defense against a predator is not hunting]
Hunting because it is fun to kill (like e.g Cheney does) is in my opinion deeply unethical, and I know no true hunter that does not despise the mere "shootists" who are in it for the thrill and the trophies only.
In a gun-mad culture as the US I consider it wise to teach children gun security and the ethical behaviour that goes with it (where there is no gun tradition, I'd vote against it).
On the other hand I have no sympathy for the described attempts to lure children into the use of guns in order to make them customers of weapon/ammo manufacturers or to increase the political clout of the NRA.
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» Hunting isn't should both for sport & food
Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Hunting isn't should both for sport & food
Posted by: Swatopluk
» Cheney and Bush hunt as a sign of mental illness
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: David V on Feb 28, 2007 4:33 AM
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Then why the outrage over hunting? Ah, because you don't PERSONALLY care for it, and therefore you don't want anyone ELSE to do it?
How very REPUBLICAN of you all.
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» RE: What is wrong with this?!?
Posted by: mazel
» RE: What is wrong with this?!? Fo one thing, you're use of the term
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: What is wrong with this?!?
Posted by: russianblue1
» RE: What is wrong with this?!?
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: SteveBreeze on Feb 28, 2007 4:42 AM
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» RE: the NRA wants to sell more guns
Posted by: freedomhawk
» If you buy a gun from God, get a Guarantee that there will be habitat left to hunt in!
Posted by: edith
» RE: the NRA wants to sell more guns
Posted by: SteveBreeze
» a little context
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: a little context
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» RE: a little context
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: the NRA wants to sell more guns
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: Windwhistler on Feb 28, 2007 4:43 AM
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» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: mazel
» What brand of rifle was shoody and why was it pointing in the direction of your friend?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: What brand of rifle was shoody and why was it pointing in the direction of your friend?
Posted by: Ellie1
» Deer Me!
Posted by: edith
» PBR Me!
Posted by: underground
» RE: Neanderthal Activity??? For a truer perspective about how dangerous
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: Windwhistler
» RE: Neanderthal Activity
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Neanderthal Activity, you are so farther evolved than us mere mortals
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Posted by: solrev on Feb 28, 2007 5:12 AM
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» RE: be prepared: We have the radical, oil company sponsered,
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» RE: be prepared
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» RE: be prepared
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Feb 28, 2007 5:53 AM
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If all children were brought up with a respectful appreciation of the proper use of firearms, it would help prevent there misuse.
Proper conditioning may be used to prevent the violent attitude many children grow up with because they have not been taught adult responsibilities.
'
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» RE: Message For Anti Firearm groups. Also much of the
Posted by: SamFox
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Posted by: gellero on Feb 28, 2007 6:05 AM
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I like guns, I liked them in high school. My parents would never dream of owning one. I came from an urban, brainwashed, cultured, democratic - voting family.
People who won't have guns are setting themselves up to be VICTIMS. No kids in my house now.....so I sleep with a .38 by the bed. And why not?
Funny how no one complains about wealthy people and politicians having ARMED bodyguards. Most of us can't afford them. Hence......GUNS.
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» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: Troglodyke
» Possibly...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» protection
Posted by: gellero
» Better hope, then..
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: PopRox80
» TO POP ROX
Posted by: gellero
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: NEANDERTHAL
Posted by: PirateJesus
» NOT QUITE
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 28, 2007 6:10 AM
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Teaching kids to be responsible hunters and shooters isn't a bad thing; neither is raising your kids the way you choose and getting your authoritarian noses out of your neighbors' rights to do the same.
Where did all the pro-choice advocates go?
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» RE: Wow. The authoritarian anti-choice crowd comes out in force! And on a progressive site!
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» Suggestion: read...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» ??????
Posted by: gellero
» RE: ??????
Posted by: PirateJesus
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Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 28, 2007 6:22 AM
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» hilarious!!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» human tastes like spam, or so I here
Posted by: AdamG
» Hey, if you can't eat it, don't hunt it. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: lol
Posted by: tlCampbell
» I'm glad you all have a good sense of humor.
Posted by: WhatNow?
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Feb 28, 2007 6:31 AM
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We can hope also that this program could be focused on certain animals. Like cull some of the whitetail in problem areas that have become overcrowded due to no predators and growth of cities. And fish for those invasive species and catch-n-release all natives.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Feb 28, 2007 6:31 AM
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I grew up in a time and place where every boy I knew had a .22 by the time he was around 12. We all had BB guns VERY early. I think I was in 2nd grade when I got mine (a really sweet red rider that still had a wooden stock). Out of all the kids I grew up with, not a one has been involved in gun crime.
The problem ISN'T guns. If it were, then the prevalence of knives in EVERY SINGLE HOME IN THE COUNTRY would have caused a raging epedimic of stabbings. The problem is not hunting, either. The problem is a society that glorifies gun violence. Guns do not fire themselves. Guns do not aim themselves. People aim them and fire them.
I don't own any guns, nor do I much want to. I don't hunt. I tried it a couple of times and found it just wasn't for me. I don't approve of hunting for sport... but I don't have a problem with hunting for food.
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» RE: Yeah...
Posted by: Ellie1
» Somewhat disagree
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: sausage on Feb 28, 2007 6:35 AM
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The mother quoted, one Aimee Falls, is promoting continued ignorance about firearms. By keeping knowledge of guns occult she promotes the mystique of firearms and the essentially masculine cult of the gun barrel. Attitudes like the speaker's transform a mundane object into a cult fetish; the talisman of the outlaw, the bad boy.
Truthfully, I'd rather be in a room with a thousand armed NRA members than in one with one gun packing gang-banger. Why? Because at the very least, the thousand NRA members know how their firearm works, they treat it with the respect due a deadly weapon and know enough not to wildly wave it around, point it in other peoples' faces while keeping it fully loaded. Firearm safety programs work.
And, really, as for gun control, it is not the guns which need controlling, it's the shooter.
Shooting firearms should be treated similarly to the state scantioned privilege of driving an automobile. A citizen who owns a firearm would be required to take a state scantioned firearm safety test, purchase a shooters license (something I envision as similar to a driver's license which would need to be updated periodically), and some form of liability insurance. As far as I'm concern she or he could own as many guns as she or he could afford.
The number of firearms possessed is not a real issue but responsible usage is. Who owns firearms and how they are used is more important that how many and of what type can be owned and where.
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» Right on!!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: This is wrong?!And More wrong...
Posted by: Blade
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 28, 2007 6:54 AM
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» How very easily scared you seem.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: How very easily scared you seem.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Relax. It's very difficult to smile and be fat, dumb and happy when you've got peple...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: DUH?
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Feb 28, 2007 6:54 AM
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» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: AlienSlave
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: Troglodyke
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: Oh Hooray, more bloodthirsty animal abusers in the world...Hey! I represent that remark!
Posted by: SamFox
» Another reason to hate vegetarians
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Another reason to hate hypocritical meat-eaters
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Another reason to hate hypocritical meat-eaters
Posted by: YogiBear
» Correction
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: hunting grounds are dwindling due to
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: hunting grounds are dwindling due to
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: dikaiosyne on Feb 28, 2007 7:18 AM
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» RE: Hunting as really good sport
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Hunting as really good sport
Posted by: polyquat50
» RE: Hunting as really good sport: polyquat50-So should the cycle of
Posted by: SamFox
» just don't feed the right-wing trolls
Posted by: zooeyhall
» Pros and Cons
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Go with high power
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Yes.. who else...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Go with high power: NRA buffs-
Posted by: SamFox
» The Video Star
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Hunting as really good sport: Go with the
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Hunting as really good sport: Go with the(Wrong place!)
Posted by: SamFox
» RE: Hunting as really good sport for firm-wristed gents
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: Hunting as really good sport for firm-wristed gents
Posted by: candara
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Posted by: Joycep on Feb 28, 2007 7:25 AM
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Posted by: undertheradarmang on Feb 28, 2007 7:42 AM
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There's nothing special about luring deer year round with feed, then when it's open season you sit up in your deer blind blasting away. Sure, its takes some skill to be an accurate shot, I wont deny that. If you really want to hunt, learn how to use a bow and arrow. Then feel free to go out looking for bears or bigger game. You see, there's more of a challenge in that. I promise I won't cry if I hear of some tragic accident where someone was mauled to death.
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» RE: Lazy
Posted by: Troglodyke
» RE: Lazy
Posted by: erichoffer
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 28, 2007 8:13 AM
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» Satire is wasted on the ignorant
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» RE: Satire is wasted on the ignorant
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: anarchistecogeek on Feb 28, 2007 8:39 AM
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I regard the increasing numbers of kids getting interested in hunting as a GOOD thing. I, like many environmentalist activists, first nurtured my love of nature growing up in a family with a tradition of hunting and fishing.
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Posted by: djnoll on Feb 28, 2007 9:02 AM
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Courses like these must be taught. We may not like that thought, and it may not be used for hunting by many who take the classes, but the knowledge may be invaluable in the future. I am not so foolish as to think that the motivations of the gun manufacturers or the NRA are altruistic. I am a realist who sees that hunting for our food or protecting our homes in the near future may be the difference between survival and not. While I would rather that Nature handled the thinning of herds with natural predators such as wolves and cougars, I also understand that responsible hunting can be done within reason. (Aerial shooting or bounties are barbaric and disgusting)
Should we fear that these classes will lead to another Columbine or worse? It do not think that should be as much of a concern as the accessiblity of students to guns on the streets or the fact that most children who get hurt with guns do so because they have no knowledge on how to handle a gun safely. Parents who allow guns in the home should be sure that they are properly secured; that children cannot get access to them; and that their children are properly trained in their use when they feel the child is old enough to understand the responsibilities that go with gun ownership.
So, while I do not agree with these classes as a marketing tool for the gun industry, I do believe that in today's world, this class is an important one for our young people if they are to be safe and prepared for the future.
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Posted by: Praxis on Feb 28, 2007 9:58 AM
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True, the NRA has basically become an adjunct of the GOP, but knee-jerk liberals' anti-hunting attitudes helped drive them in that direction. I know a guy who hates Bush but reflexively votes Republican because he's concerned that the Democrat Party will try and take his guns away, and I'm sure he's not alone. Pols like Diane Feinstein support corporate globalization and imperialist adventurism, but are considered progressive because they want gun control. Radicals (folks that wish to address the root of problems rather than liberals who prefer to dress up a pig with some lipstick) shouldn't be taken in by this anti-gun program, which would disarm the people and leave activists to be rounded up like European Jews in WWII if push ever comes to shove in this country. The right is already armed to the teeth. I don't trust the police and military to protect my rights; those very forces slaughtered hundreds of thousands of good people in Latin America over the last generation. The Dirty War in Argentina never would have happened if the working class had been armed. I'd rather oppose gun registration and restriction and make common cause with rural workers who do a little hunting and fishing against the corporate-financed duopoly.
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Posted by: tlCampbell on Feb 28, 2007 10:12 AM
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My problem with the situation however, is that why is it okay to supplement part of physical education in schools with hunting courses? As it is, we are struggling to keep the current standard school curriculum in place such as PE, music, arts, and other valuable educational programs, I don’t feel that we should be sacrificing one of these areas just to promote hunting. If it were strictly gun safety that needed to be taught, I could appreciate that, but this to me just seems like a marketing ploy to generate funds for yet another industry.
Teaching children about and getting them involved in conservation efforts does not require hunting courses, this can and is often done through numerous other school activities that are already in place, which also encourages respect and compassion for all creatures and the environment.
If the desired affect is to generate more hunters or at least gun toting people, then why not do the same thing the girl/boy scouts do and send out fliers to the schools advertising their programs and activities, rather than absorbing themselves directly into the schools.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 28, 2007 10:25 AM
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An earlier poster mentioned the need to preserve school programs such as Physical Education. I would add the need to add a really worthwhile and less monied program to help people improve their Basic Interpersonal Communication Skills along with it. Let's face it, America is getting more obese and from teen dating violence happening to 1 in 3 teens to the 50% divorce rate, our country's well-being isn't going to get any better by turning kids into gun-toters and potentially heavily armed gangsters.
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Posted by: mistery509 on Feb 28, 2007 10:28 AM
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As if there is not enough killing already. As if there isn't enough guns in the country. As if there aren't enough people in jails for murder and battery.
Who are you people?
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» Who are you?
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Actually...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: edith
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: mistery509
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: edith
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Nazis, Fasicts or Bullies(Right)
Posted by: mistery509
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Posted by: Diego on Feb 28, 2007 10:41 AM
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Having spent 6 years in the midst of the hunting culture of N.Michigan I can tell you most of these clowns would use dynamite, if necessary, to "get their deer". They try and tell you it's all about heritage or sportsmanship or game management or, (this one kills me), a great family experience, when it's really just about killing a defenseless animal for fun. Any way they can.
The fact that the loudmouth Second Ammendment scholars at the NRA can influence the outcome of an election is a sad commentary on how far the United States has devolved.
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» influencing elections
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: God-given right to own guns??
Posted by: mountainsrock
» God-given right to own guns!!!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: influencing elections
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: Ellie1 on Feb 28, 2007 11:28 AM
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» RE: The war crazy Republican party needs the NRA
Posted by: Mojoe
» Warmongers Need a Disarmed Public
Posted by: edith
» RE: Warmongers Need a Disarmed Public
Posted by: polyquat50
» don't be so dense
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Warmongers Need a Disarmed Public
Posted by: edith
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Posted by: icj on Feb 28, 2007 11:29 AM
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However, I also grew up in Southern Idaho where hunting is a way of life. Many people I knew and know hunt every year, use every single piece of meat, the hides, etc and I have no problem with this kind of hunting. Also, teaching gun safety in a country such as ours filled with crazies who have more guns that some small nations is a good thing. A kid I'd known for years accidentally shot himself in the head last summer and some elemental gun safety could have prevented this tragedy.
But a distinction does need to be made between people who use hunting to supplement their larders and who have some respect for the nature they are in and those who fly in from other places to "get the big one" to put the head on their wall. My husband worked in Alaska for many years and there are charters that will take you in close enough to shore that you can shoot bears, deer, elk, etc from the deck of the boat. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of and I have no respect or support for this so-called sport.
I also think it is ingenuous to claim that hunting somehow provides a unique interaction with nature. If you really care about getting urban kids into nature, I'm not sure how killing some of nature's grandest creatures is better than taking kids on nature hikes, bird walks, etc, etc.
Last but not least, yes hunting help to control prey populations. However, these prey populations get out of control in the first place because of the expasion of human habitat into nature and overzealous hunting of predators. But most of the hunters I know vociferously (and sometimes violently) resist any sort of predator re-introduction. So, if they're hunting to help the populations it seems hypocritical to oppose predator reintroduction.
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» RE: A mountain girl's perspective...
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: A mountain girl's perspective...
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: DaBear on Feb 28, 2007 11:56 AM
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Hunting? Well, I grew up with guns, grew up patrolling 375 acres of woods to keep out hunters without permits to hunt on that property and discovered how easy it is to get shot at and desperately want to put a bullet in some asshat's head in retaliation.
It's not the guns, it's the perverse 'Merkaan cult-ure that makes those guns problematic. I was never shot at by a reasonable hunter, trained or otherwise. I was assaulted many times, however, by drunk, redneck assholes (some of whom I personally knew from school) and numerous untrained butholes who came up from the MYC or Philly trying to "bag the'seffs a buck" to hang on their suburban walls.
As for any actual hunting, I learned to hunt in the Lenape tradition from an indigenous hunter (bow & arrow, not the pissant lazy route with a gun) and did that successfully only once. I ate with gratitude and perhaps I would be able to do it again if I absolutely had to (and would actaully welcome a gun in that scenario, because it's tough to keep a steady hand when you're fuckin' hungry already, let alone having to run the 15 - 20 km before the creature falls). But knowing that, having experienced that, I'm not interested at this stage of suburban existence to take another life to feed my own through hunting. As far as gun safety is concerned, it's a no brainer, if you're going to own a gun, you'd better know how to use it safely. That's far more important than waiting periods. IMHO, the only need to for gun control (or bans) is the sick right-wing asshat cult that tends to own them. Otherwise we should have the right to march on the white house and demand impeachment at the point of the guns since that's why the second amendment exists in legislative intent anyway. If we're not going to do that... all this angst is useless.
My bigger concern is the NASCAR, soldier-cult in this country playing with firesticks because some rich white asshole in the NRA wants to keep his income up. To them I say, go get a fucking real job and quit yer damned whinin'!
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» RE: It's the capitalistic nature of the push that's freaky
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: jeffersonian on Feb 28, 2007 1:08 PM
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Posted by: rem280guy on Feb 28, 2007 1:25 PM
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For those who oppose hunting, if you are strict vegetarian I can respect your position, if not agree with it. For the rest of you, do you think your cheeseburger committed suicide?
Education of the safe use of firearms is a problem in what way? The downward trend of accidental, (actually they should be called negligent, because accidents occur only in the presence of unsafe practices), shootings is a direct result of increased education on the safe use of firearms.
For the deluded people who think the democans are the solution instead of just the flip side of the republicrat problem; and who further think that 'gun control' is grand; you must ask yourselves one question. Is a USA where only the police and the military are armed a good thing? Would you like such a nation under the present government? Have you really thought that one all the way through? Maybe you'd care to spend a year in North Korea and get back to me on just how well 'gun control' works for them.
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
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» RE: NOT WANTING TO BE CONFUSED BY THE FACTS?
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: NOT WANTING TO BE CONFUSED BY THE FACTS?
Posted by: rem280guy
» RE: NOT WANTING TO BE CONFUSED BY THE FACTS?
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: LONG LIVE THE FACTS
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: AS TO SELF EVIDENT LOGIC
Posted by: chrisp.
» Here is some evidence that you ignored because it didn't fit your rhetoric.
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Here is some evidence that you ignored because it didn't fit your rhetoric.
Posted by: chrisp.
» What about the Swiss?
Posted by: freedomhawk
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Posted by: russianblue1 on Feb 28, 2007 1:31 PM
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» Don't care?
Posted by: freedomhawk
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Posted by: rem280guy on Feb 28, 2007 1:34 PM
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As for those who think bow hunting is more sporting than firearms, I would have to disagree. I've seen deer harvested during the rifle season a month after the bow season with abcessed arrowheads imbedded in their hip. I saw one deer with an apparent neurological problem a month after bow season as evidenced by seizures. A post mortem exam by the game wardens revealed an arrowhead imbedded in the skull that cause a brain infection. I saw another deer starving, with an arrow throught the roof of its mouth with the point in the deer's tongue. Some sporting bow hunter failing to follow up on their poor shots caused all of these problems. Firearms are far more humane. I have no time for bow hunters, period!
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» RE: DID YOU KNOW? bow hunters suck
Posted by: mountainsrock
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Posted by: deeper on Feb 28, 2007 2:06 PM
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Posted by: Tankerdeath on Feb 28, 2007 2:52 PM
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Thank Goddess. Maybe we're not doomed, after all.
BTW, I'm firmly in the Libertarian/Gun Freak camp. An armed society is a polite society ;)
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» RE: I hate to introduce love and understanding into a good debate...
Posted by: underground
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 28, 2007 3:14 PM
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:-)
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» and "Terrible Ted" must be lovin' this...
Posted by: realmuzik
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Posted by: hebridesgal on Feb 28, 2007 4:25 PM
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» good point
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: throck on Feb 28, 2007 5:00 PM
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» RE: mr.
Posted by: mite
» RE: mr. CORRECT!
Posted by: sphoenix
» Bingo! You Got It!
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 28, 2007 6:35 PM
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» ??????
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: bambino on Feb 28, 2007 7:24 PM
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» BAMBINO??
Posted by: gellero
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: Blade
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: i hate hunters crisply...
Posted by: Blade
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: Blade
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Speaking of cruelty...
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Speaking of cruelty...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» p.s. yogibear
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: p.s. yogibear
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Speaking of ecological footprints...
Posted by: chrisp.
» It depends on whose diets you are comparing.
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: It depends on whose diets you are comparing.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I was responding to chrispy
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: I was responding to chrispy
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I was responding to chrispy
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: responding to Adam
Posted by: chrisp.
» Blood sport
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: i hate hunters, at least the deer I shot had a chance...
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: i hate hunters
Posted by: underground
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Posted by: YogiBear on Feb 28, 2007 8:09 PM
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Only 5 percent of gun deaths are accidental...
...while 2,825 children and teens were killed with firearms in 2004, only 143 of those deaths were accidental. Even among the white population, which accounts for the vast majority of hunters, the ratio of suicides and homicides to accidents is 14.5 to one.
The statistics used in this piece bothered me, because the author seems to be against guns.
Problem is, the very stats he uses to prove that most deaths aren't accidental are also used by the anti-gun crowd to criticize guns in the home because of accidents. Except in those stories, suicides are lumped in with accidents in a general "non-murder" death-in-the-home category. This author, to prove a different point, moves all that suicide data out of that category to make his statistical point.
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Posted by: jesusonthedashboard on Feb 28, 2007 9:40 PM
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on the one hand, a heavily armed population is less easy to march off to concentration camps, less easy to threaten; but on the other hand, a heavily armed population inevitably shoots itself up a la columbine style and the countless other tragedies and accidents.
i think even a hardcore anti-gun person would have to admit that had european jews been a gun culture, they would stood a better chance of defending themselves against the nazis.
question: is there anyone left who trusts our government enough to advocate a full disarming of the US population?
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» Germans were at no time better armed then when the Nazis took over..
Posted by: Swatopluk
» You must be reading... I have no idea!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Original printed paper beats quotes everytime
Posted by: Swatopluk
» And for the record...
Posted by: Swatopluk
» Yes! The printed word proves me right!
Posted by: freedomhawk
» Discussion pointless
Posted by: Swatopluk
» I won?
Posted by: freedomhawk
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 28, 2007 10:07 PM
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I can't be for taking away people's firearms because it is one of the steps that totalitarian regimes like to take. Being at the mercy of a dumbass hunter probably wouldn't be any worse than being at the mercy of the ATF and FBI at Ruby Ridge.
I don't think much of most hunters I see. The bums drive their big ass truck way out in the woods and then walk a little ways to ambush some game. They may seed an area to attract the wildlife and who knows what other bs they do. To me it's lazy and cruel. I might have some respect for them if they actually walked all the way to where they hunt and never used any bait. Alot of the fishermen in my area are the same way. They "need" thousands of dollars of equipment to catch some bass or crappie. What a bunch of bums.
I don't like this being done in public schools either. I don't have any problem with people teaching their children gun safety but I don't want our tax dollars going to something like this. I guess as lousy as some schools are teaching mathematics, science, and simple english maybe they do need to be taught to hunt so they'll have some way to feed themselves.
Hunting does help the environment at times in different ways. It can be alot more merciful for an animal to be shot at times instead of overpopulating an area and having massive die offs from disease and starvation. And funds raised from hunting do at times help to preserve wilderness areas. I am all for both of those aspects.
As for some of these nutcases and rednecks with guns, we all better watch out. I've seen some bad behavior and heard alot of stories about even worse. I've known hunters I think are good people but I've met more that I think nothing of whatsoever.
I wouldn't doubt if the NRA pushes this crap to try to ensure future funds and that's just sick. Leave the hunting to the woods for friends and family and stop the poachers and trespassers. And last but not least this crap doesn't belong in school.
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Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 28, 2007 10:14 PM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 1, 2007 7:16 AM
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My dad took the gun and through it in the lake.
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» RE: lesson from my German grandfather
Posted by: Carl Street
» Very few were like your grandfather
Posted by: edith
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Posted by: mjglow on Mar 1, 2007 8:24 AM
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» RE: That picture...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: rem280guy on Mar 1, 2007 1:13 PM
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Today, good news on a couple of fronts. First, new statistics from the National Safety Council shows that accidents with firearms remain at record lows. Even more significantly, accidents involving youths continue to decline - significantly.
The trend is especially positive as the numbers of firearms owners climbs, giving credibility to the idea that training new gun owners helps assure their safety as they progress in shooting.
The 2007 NSF's "Safety Facts" report shows a 40 percent decrease in accidental firearms-related fatalities in the period from 1995 through 2005. It also shows gun accidents involving children age fourteen and under declined sixty nine percent from 1995 through 2003.
The council's most recent stats show 109,277 U.S. residents dying in accidents of all types in 2005. Less than 1 percent involved firearms. As you might imagine, motor vehicles were the highest fatality rate, with poisoning and falls joining the auto to account for seventy five percent of all accidental deaths.
These statistics are also verified by findings of the Centers for Disease Control. The CDC findings show that all four regions of the United States have enjoyed significant declines in the numbers of firearms-related fatalities.
There were 730 accidental firearms fatalities in 2005; forty percent fewer than the 1,225 deaths in 1995. And the numbers of firearms related fatalities continue to show the largest percentage decrease of all measured types of accident fatalities.
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» RE: FACTS, NOT FICTION
Posted by: Blade
» RE: FACTS, NOT FICTION
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: rem280guy on Mar 1, 2007 1:35 PM
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James Butler Hickock, AKA 'Wild Bill'
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» RE: Quote to ponder
Posted by: edith
» Roosevelt
Posted by: Mal'ak
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Posted by: Carl Street on Mar 1, 2007 2:49 PM
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BTW, my family fled German militarism in the last century -- unfortunately, not all of us -- and I am VERY sensitive to the bubble-headed whining of those whose political and historical ignorance could leave us all defenseless here -- and with NO place to flee this time!
Die klugen leben von den dummen; und die dummen von ihrer arbeit! Dummkopf!
In short, GET A CLUE!
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» My family left Europe for freedom
Posted by: freedomhawk
» RE: Freedomhawk you have it half right
Posted by: Carl Street
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Posted by: ibilde on Mar 1, 2007 4:50 PM
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This piece just makes no sense to me. It juxtaposes facts that bear no relation to one-another and cites quotes that state facts that have no connection.
Poor Colleen, for example, has her knickers in a wad because kids are taught gun safety. That's like being upset that kids take driver's education. After all, the leading cause of death for young men under twenty five is auto accidents, so let's ban it.
The statement that of all the deaths of kids due to firearms only 143 were accidental has no relevance what-so-ever. Adolescent social misfits that turn on classmates with Dad's guns aren't likely to be the ones that the advocacy groups will appeal to. And just think for a moment how many of those accidental deaths might have been prevented if gun safety classes had been seen by those unfortunate kids that were responsible for those tragedies.
The tone of this article is puts forth the same type argument that fundamentalists of all stripes propound. That is that being for something is being for its abuse. For example, religious fundamentalists believe that sex education will lead to promiscuity and anti-drug folks beleive that clean needle exchanges will foster a rise in drug use, even though statistics show otherwise. Ignorance in not bless!
So, folks, my point is that an educated person in a safe person, whether behind the wheel, in the sack, or in the field, and the younger the education starts, the better.
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» IT'S THE AGENDA....STUPID
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 1, 2007 4:53 PM
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Clearly since the ban criminals have not found it difficult to get guns and the balance has not shifted in the interest of public safety....
In the four years from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century....
A recent study of all the countries of western Europe has found that in 2001 Britain had the worst record for killings, violence and burglary, and its citizens had one of the highest risks in the industrialized world of becoming victims of crime....
SO MUCH FOR GUN CONTROL!!!!!
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» AND OPEN IMMIGRATION
Posted by: gellero
» RE: LONG LIVE GUN CONTROL...
Posted by: chrisp.
» RE: LONG LIVE GUN CONTROL...MORE FACTS
Posted by: chrisp.
» I don't think that you will like these facts, chrisp
Posted by: freedomhawk
» failed everywhere else? News to me
Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: facts that don't fit your rethoric
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: gellero on Mar 1, 2007 6:11 PM
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» RE: DRACULA'S CASTLE
Posted by: Swatopluk
» RE: DRACULA'S CASTLE
Posted by: gellero
» RE: DRACULA'S CASTLE
Posted by: Swatopluk
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Posted by: ckenn on Mar 1, 2007 7:01 PM
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How is it that you can't teach sex education in some schools, you can't teach evolution in some schools, you can't teach world geography, you can't teach maths or science to a world standard in your schools but you can teach children to handle lethal weapons and you can teach them to kill living animals?
When will you realise that there is a reason why the US leads the world in both numbers of firearm deaths and the rate of firearm deaths?.....it's this paranoid obsession with guns in all their forms and the misguided belief that somehow the 2nd Amendment entitles every lunatic to own an armory.
Join the 21st century and give your guns the bullet
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» RE: Where are the priorities
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Where are the priorities
Posted by: chrisp.
» Priorities
Posted by: Mal'ak
» AUSTRALIAN SOCIETY
Posted by: gellero
» RE: homo genious indeed!
Posted by: chrisp.
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Posted by: joshuawelch on Mar 1, 2007 7:38 PM
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Posted by: Carl Street on Mar 2, 2007 9:01 AM
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Unfortunately, I CANNOT recirprocate. I suggest you re-read the writings of the founding fathers of this nation as, apparently, you missed their point regarding the second ammendment.
Synoptically, they were UTTERLY OPPOSED to a strong military and standing armies and considered them a consumate danger to freedom and liberty. By design, they ONLY supported a SMALL cadre officer corps.
Their plan for protection of this nation was that EVERY INDIVIDUAL was to be armed and a member of the militia -- an independent ad hoc irregular defense force. Thus, providing any invading enemy with a prickly porcupine of innumerable armed enemies that COULD NOT be defeated by an organized military forces. And, while those militia might not "win" a war in a conventional sense; eventually, the enemy would find any invasion to be too expensive to maintain.
They based this on their proven success in defeating the British (the superpower of their day) in the American Revolution. And, their stance was MORE than justified in that the defeat of the British was accomplished even though only about 20% of colonial residents actively supported the American Revolution. So it stood to reason that with an independent militia representing 100%, their stance was a sound military defense strategy.
Would such a plan work in today's high-tech, smart-weapon world? You BET-- regardless of the smoke-screen provided by self-serving military-industrial government sources, THAT is exactly what defeated the USA in Vietnam and is defeating us in Iraq.
All you junior-league arm-chair history channel john waynes please spare me your comments. I KNOW first-hand what I am speaking about. I served from 8 aug 66 to 7 aug 72 including stints in the 101st Airborne and was an instructor at Ft. Lewis WA -- my specialty was Techniques of Guerrilla warfare -- so I do NOT want to hear ignorant comments from wannabee idiots whose only combat experience is fighting their wife for the remote control.
Hopefully, this clarifies the Second Amendment for ALL -- bubble-headed, touchy-feely, doo-gooders and centralized, standing-army, military-industrial warfare, "super patriots" -- both of whom are unwittingly undermining this nation and cutting their own throats as well as the rest of ours.
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» THANK YOU!
Posted by: AdamG
» I am glad that we still agree
Posted by: freedomhawk
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Posted by: gellero on Mar 2, 2007 8:15 PM
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Mar 3, 2007 7:36 AM
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The are simularities between sex and gun ownership.
You will come into contact with one of those things some day.
Improper use could lead to a life changing experience or death.
Education at an early age can prevent a catastrophe later.
Now go play safe and for gods sake! Watch were you point that thing.
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Posted by: ES3 on Mar 3, 2007 8:07 PM
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As a proud life member of the NRA, I will continue to support and promote gun ownership and all shooting sports. Remember that one of the first things Hitler did was require registration and then confiscation of all personal firearms. And next time you're confronted by a mugger, go ahead and talk him to death.
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Posted by: Krain61 on Mar 4, 2007 10:29 AM
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If we taught kids right from wrong at a early age we would see less violence but instead parents let there kids shoot with video games which kids think or want to imitate. My kids learned to shoot and respect a gun. They knew when a animal was shot it could not regenerate itself. By the way mine learned to shoot before they learned how to play video games. I knew I could take them in the woods and not get myself shot by them or that they would shoot there self. If you choice not to shoot a gun and deprive your kids the ability and challenge of shooting one and what would you do if your both at home and there is a home invasion. Die? Probably
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Posted by: Blade on Mar 8, 2007 2:08 AM
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www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/asc/ASC2004/ASC2004_slideshow.ppt
Now, they did not give the raw statistics, as did the Fed Bureau of Justice, it was a PowerPoint slide show. But it was quite academic, and supposedly objective. It showed the gun restrictions had at best, no effect, and at worst, a bad effect. And they spent million of bucks collecting the guns, and created a whole new bureaucracy, which we sure don't need.
While the USA's gun crimes are dropping, probably due to the laws permitted concealed carry of handguns. Suicide deaths, by far the greatest deaths by guns, thus not a matter of public safety, was not affected by gun control, either. Check it out, ladies. On you own.
On a personal note, all stats aside. I have been accosted and pistol whipped, robbed and worse while unarmed. I was lucky to come out of it alive. But one time in Chicago, the only other time I was accosted by thugs, I did have a Charter Arms five shot 44mag revolver on me, as I was paying workers cash on Friday evenings in bad neighborhoods. The gun was not licensed, or legal in any way, except in my, by then, quite experienced mind. I was accosted as I sat in my truck counting cash out. A thug pounded on the passenger window opposite me, pointing at me to open the door, as he brandished a club like object threatening to break the window. I simply reached in the breast pocket in my flight jacket, pulled out the "Bulldog", and pointed it at him. He disappeared, instantly. That is enough stats for me. My guys got paid, and I went home to my wife and child, safely. Happy trails, or trials, Blade.
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