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Short Changing 9/11: Popular Documentary Takes Us Nowhere

By George Monbiot, AlterNet. Posted February 17, 2007.


The English author charges that infatuation with the 9/11 conspiracy film Loose Change turns opponents of the Bush government into "gibbering idiots."
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There is a virus sweeping the world. It infects opponents of the Bush government, sucks their brains out through their eyes and turns them into gibbering idiots. The disease is called Loose Change. It is a film made by three young men which airs most of the standard conspiracy theories about the attacks of September 11 2001. Unlike the other 9/11 conspiracy films, Loose Change is sharp and swift, with a thumping soundtrack, slick graphics and a calm and authoritative voiceover. Its makers claim that it has now been watched by 100 million people.

The Pentagon, the film maintains, was not hit by a commercial airliner. There was "no discernable trace" of a plane found in the wreckage, and the entrance and exit holes in the building were far too small. It was hit by a Cruise missile. The twin towers were brought down by means of "a carefully planned controlled demolition." You can see the small puffs of smoke caused by explosives just below the cascading sections. All other hypotheses are implausible: the fire was not hot enough to melt steel and the towers fell too quickly. Building 7 was destroyed by the same means a few hours later.

Flight 93 did not crash, but was redirected to Cleveland Airport, where the passengers were taken into a NASA building and never seen again. Their voices had been cloned by the Los Alamos laboratories and used to make fake calls to their relatives. The footage of Osama Bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the attacks, was faked. The US government carried out this great crime for four reasons: to help Larry Silverstein, who leased the towers, to collect his insurance money; to assist insider traders betting on falling airline stocks; to steal the gold in the basement; and to grant George Bush new executive powers, so that he could carry out his plans for world domination.

Even if you have seen or read no other accounts of 9/11, and your brain has not yet been liquidized, a few problems must occur to you. The first is the complete absence of scientific advice. At one point the presenter asks "So what brought down the Twin Towers? Let's ask the experts." But they don't ask the experts. The film makers take some old quotes, edit them to remove any contradictions, then denounce all subsequent retractions as further evidence of conspiracy.

The only people they interview are a janitor, a group of firemen and a flight instructor. They let the janitor speak at length, but cut the firemen off in mid-sentence. The flight instructor speaks in short clips, which give the impression that his pupil, the hijacker Hani Hanjour, was incapable of hitting the Pentagon. Elsewhere he has said the opposite: he had "no doubt" that Hanjour could have done it. Where are the structural engineers, the materials scientists, the specialists in ballistics, explosives or fire? The film makers now say that the third edition of the film will be fact-checked by an expert, but he turns out to be "a theology professor." They don't name him, but I would bet that it's David Ray Griffin, who also happens to be the high priest of the 9/11 conspiracists.

The next evident flaw is that the plot they propose must have involved tens of thousands of people. It could not have been executed without the help of demolition experts, the security firms guarding the World Trade Centre, Mayor Giuliani (who hastily disposed of the remains), much of the US Air Force, the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defense Command, the relatives of the people "killed" in the plane crashes, the rest of the Pentagon's staff, the Los Alamos laboratories, the FBI, the CIA and the investigators who picked through the rubble. If there is one universal American characteristic it is a confessional culture which permits no one with a good story to keep his mouth shut. People appear on the Jerry Springer Show to admit to carnal relations with their tractors. Yet none of the participants in this monumental crime has sought to blow the whistle -- before, during or after the attacks. No one has volunteered to tell the greatest story ever told.

Read some conflicting accounts, and Loose Change's case crumbles faster than the Twin Towers. Hundreds of people saw a plane hit the Pentagon. Because it collided with one of the world's best- defended buildings at full speed, the plane was pulverised: even so, both plane parts and body parts were in fact recovered. The wings and tail disintegrated when they hit the wall, which is why the holes weren't bigger.

The failure of the Twin Towers has been exhaustively documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Far from being impossible, the collapse turns out to have been inevitable. The planes cut some of the support columns and ignited fires sufficient to weaken (but not melt) the remaining steel structures. As the perimeter columns buckled, the weight of the collapsing top stories generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest. Puffs of smoke were blown out of the structure by compression as the building fell.

Counterpunch, the radical leftwing magazine, commissioned its own expert -- an aerospace and mechanical engineer -- to test the official findings. He shows that the institute must have been right. He also demonstrates how Building 7 collapsed. Burning debris falling from the twin towers ruptured the oil pipes feeding its emergency generators. The reduction in pressure triggered the automatic pumping system, which poured thousands of gallons of diesel onto the fire. The support trusses weakened and buckled and the building imploded. Popular Mechanics magazine polled 300 experts and came to the same conclusions. So the critics -- even Counterpunch -- are labelled co-conspirators, and the plot expands until it comes to involve a substantial part of the world's population. There is no reasoning with this madness.

People believe Loose Change because it proposes a closed world: comprehensible, controllable, small. Despite the great evil which runs it, it is more companionable than the chaos which really governs our lives, a world without destination or purpose. This neat story draws campaigners away from real issues -- global warming, the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, privatisation, inequality -- while permanently wrecking their credibility. Bush did capitalise on the attacks, and he did follow a pre-existing agenda, spelt out, as Loose Change says, by the Project for a New American Century. But by drowning this truth in an ocean of nonsense, the conspiracists ensure that it can never again be taken seriously.

The film's greatest flaw is this: the men who made it are still alive. If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago? There is only one possible explanation. They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. This, if you are inclined to believe such stories, is surely a more plausible theory than the one proposed in Loose Change.

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See more stories tagged with: 9/11 conspiracy, loose change

George Monbiot is the author of 'Poisoned Arrows' and 'No Man's Land' (Green Books). Read more of his writings at Monbiot.com. This article originally appeared in the Guardian.

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Another lame hit piece from AlterNet
Posted by: LeftWright on Feb 17, 2007 12:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about an article by David Ray Griffin, Webster G. Tarpley or Barrie Zwicker for balance, eh AlterNet?

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

» Best line Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Best line Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE:Congratulations AlterNet! Posted by: saywhat
» RE: "Crossing the Rubicon" Posted by: saywhat
» And rightly so...... Posted by: Prophit
» Please, please Help! Posted by: alternate864
» and to you as well, Kanefire Posted by: LeftWright
bansidh
Posted by: bansidh@citlink.net on Feb 17, 2007 12:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If 9/11 happened the way the government said.....Why didn't Bush want an investigation? Why didn't the building which was hit by a plane in the corner , fall in that direction? How did three buildings fall into their own basements? Only time it ever has happened in the history of the world is with controlled demolition. How did two passports jump out of the hijackers pockets and survive the fireball and the fallling of the buildings that destroyed everything else. How did DNA survive in the Pentagon crash , when the plane did not? Where are the hijackers names on the list of plane passengers? Why wasn't Bush spirited away by his secret service men the way Cheney said he was? How did building seven fall? Why and How could building fall INTO the path of greatest resistance. Why does the Dept of Homeland security feel it is important to check everyones bank account to see if they are funding terrorism , but the 9/11 commission said their was no benefit to finding out who funded the WTC terrorists? I have a million more questions, why doesn't our government answer them?

» RE: bansidh Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: bansidh Posted by: jag585
» RE: bansidh Posted by: brunowe
» RE: bansidh Posted by: channing
» RE: bansidh Posted by: brunowe
» RE: youaretheother what, pray tell? Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: youaretheother what, pray tell? Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: youaretheother what, pray tell? Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: bansidh Posted by: braxxian
» RE: bansidh Posted by: jimbobuddy
» RE: bansidh -jimbobuddy Posted by: channing
» 'My Pet Goat' and the seven minutes Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Hey, Prophit... Posted by: bassman
In one ear and out the other
Posted by: hquain on Feb 17, 2007 2:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is another virus infecting the world: it causes opponents and supporters of the Bush regime to sneeze for a few days. It's a lot more important than the 'virus' reported on here, and has about as much impact on politics.

» Hahahaha, good response! Posted by: Prophit
Amazing
Posted by: terradea on Feb 17, 2007 2:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It always amazes me when 1) seemingly intelligent people are ready to believe incredible claims even when those claims are against their own eyes and judgment and 2) otherwise intelligent writers can be so negligent in presenting thoughtful arguments.

All one has to do is compare film footage of controlled demolitions and film footage of the fall of the twin towers to know that 9-11 was a planned demolition. All the [paid-off] scientists in the world cannot change the fact that a plane or planes simply cannot cause a building - any building - to fall straight down at freefall speed, and

None of the "Loose Change" critics ever have an explanation for the apparent suicide of building 7.

» RE: Amazing Posted by: youaretheother
» There WERE bright flashes Posted by: harpy
» Risk assessment, in general... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Amazing Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Amazing Posted by: jag585
» RE: Amazing Posted by: mcooley
» RE: Amazing...another tin hatter Posted by: psychochurch
The 'left' is not necessarily more susceptible to conspiracy theories
Posted by: youaretheother on Feb 17, 2007 3:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wanting to get some entertainment some weeks ago, I went to this lecture (though 'rally' might be a better word) featuring Alex Jones (infowars.com, etc.) he's been in the conspiracy theory business for years, with his charisma, raspy voice and outlandish theories about the government. I was actually pretty disturbed. Not so much by him, but by the extent to which the '9-11 Truth movement' is infiltrating the minds of people. Surely, skepticism is good and conspiracy theories are a result of skepticism, but I was disturbed by the apparent unquestioning nature of the people there. Once a conspiracy theory like Loose Change gets out there, it seems like people become more and more likely to accept all kinds of theories without questioning them - and lack any skepticism towards the conspiracy theory itself.

Loose Change itself is riddled with so many omissions, misleading and outright false assertions, straw man arguments about what the 'official story' is - an many more. Yet people who have never looked into the facts independent of Loose Change take Loose Change for its word and believe the falsehood. And by the way George Monbiot's explanation of the Pentagon doesn't even get into the falsehood Loose Change propagates there. The wings of the plane DID do damage to the Pentagon - but Loose Change never shows how big the hole in the building was. In fact, they only show a small portion of the hole, and even then, it's obscured by smoke.

Anyway, back to Alex Jones. So I listen to a very long winded rant, which 'exposed' the 9-11 theory and several others, including the government's plan to microchip everyone, the conspiracy to give us a 'cancer virus', the conspiracy to kill off 90% of the world's population, etc. When the logical leaps were large, I got some good laughs, but when people in the crowd yelled and occasionally yelled 'amen!' I was a little disturbed. It was like a strange religious rally, or a fascist one. And if I had to pin down the politics of Jones and his supporters, they're right wing, populist, nationalist, libertarian oriented (they're supporting Ron Paul for president), not to mention paranoid.

As much as I'd like to ignore the conspiracy movement, this rally happened on a University campus, was organized by a student organization and between 700 and 1000 people were there. 40% now don't believe the official story, 16% believe in the controlled demolition theory, and they've got a dedication to this 'cause' that beats other movements these days. I can't go to any protest without seeing '9-11 was a hoax' signs everywhere. I'd rather my fellow left-wingers forget this 9-11 Truth stuff, but I'd certainly not like to see a movement of paranoid, nationalistic, right-wingers grow into a bigger movement.

Here's a link to a point by point refutation. The links section also has "Loose Change viewer guides" also debunking the film. Pass it along and encourage critical thinking.

http://lolloosechange.co.nr/

» RE: sadly he's right about many things Posted by: youaretheother
Notice the author doesn't say a word about the unanswered questions....
Posted by: Prophit on Feb 17, 2007 3:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... of 9-11 at all and I am tired of this. I SAW THE FRIGGEN EXPLOSIONS THAT MORNING ALONG WITH A FRIEND AND WE DID NOT HALUCINATE THEM... SORRY!!!! ALTERNET WILL NEVER CONVINCE ME THOSE TOWERS DIDN'T HAVE EXPLOSIVES IN them.

Just have the author go read "the Northwoods papers" of 1962 if he doesn't believe in a closed system of conspiracy at the highest levels of govenrment. The scenarios given 40 years ago are much the same as what happened at the towers. It would have happened back then had Kennedy signed off on those recommendations. HE IS NO BUSH so it didn't happen THEN, but it has happened now. In fact, Kennedy FIRED the General who did sign off on those recommendations.

I mean think about this folks, ITS A PROVEN FACT OUR OWN MILITARY ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE JOINT CHIEFS WERE WILLING TO MURDER AMERICANS TO CREATE WAR WITH CUBA. THAT IS SCARY AND WHY ITS VERY POSSIBLE AND IN FACT MORE AND MORE PROBABLE IT DID HAPPEN.,

Explain Mineti's testimony?

Explain why the generals lied to the 9-11 commission?

Explain why the towers were powered down for three days before the attacks?

Explain why the administration called for 5 war games that day with exactly the same scenario as what actually occurred.

Explain why Marvin Bush was head of security for those towers and why he resigned shortly before the attacks

Explain why all the news clips of videos of that day live show EVERYONE INCLUDING THE REPORTERS SAYING "OH MY GOD, ANOTHER EXPLOSION".

Explain why Thermite liquid fire is dripping from the windows of the upper floors as the explosions are going off and the collapse is occuring.

Explain why that janitor would lie immediately after this happened?

Explain why the Patriot Act (which was an extensive piece of legislation) was prepared prior to the attack?

Explain the coincidence of the New American Century paper written by PNAC has the phrase "the building of this empire will need a Pearl Harbor type event" and after the authors get into office, why surprise, we have the event. ALL COINCIDENCES??? not.

There is plenty more to explain, but like I said, we have said it all and we know..... no amount of BS is changing anybodys mind and that is the good news..... we can't be brain washed anymore. We don't trust anyone in the establishment and nothing they say is going to change it.

Some one will blow the beans eventually just like other so called conspiracies no one would listen to and then later its confirmed. Truth will always prevail in the end.

» Unanswered questions Posted by: mirimac
» Hey, Prophit Posted by: rockpicker
» RE: Hey, rockpicker Posted by: blitzmesser
Ignota nulla curatio morbid
Posted by: Chevaliere on Feb 17, 2007 3:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Monbiot and AlterNet have again done a grave disservice to the striving for peace and justice on this planet. This is due to the fact that most people simply do not understand what we are dealing with here: psychopaths in power. Once you understand that, then you can easily understand that it is not only possible, but it is probable that the Neocons were complicit with Israel in pulling off 9/11 in order to further their aims of global war with the intent of capturing of resources.

Those who seek peace in this world and an end to injustice (which I presume is the aim of the founders of AlterNet and Mr. Monbiot himself), have ready to hand the single most effective means of achieving that: the Crime of 9/11. With a unified movement to truly solve this crime and bring the guilty to trial and punishment, all of this war and economic disaster that all of you rail and whine about day after day could finally be understood and optimal solutions found and implemented.

But none of this will happen as long as psychological deviants are in power.

If you would like to learn about what the problem REALLY is, then consider the two following reviews of the book Political Ponerology: The Science of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes:

Catherine Austin Fitts:
http://www.votesolari.com/catherinesblog/?p=96


Carolyn Baker: Speaking Truth to Power
The Science of Evil and Its Use For Political Purposes

*************
The bottom line is this: IF AlterNet and George Monbiot really are after solutions, they will first educate themselves about the problem and then, once they understand the true nature of the madmen who are driving our world over the brink, they will know better what is true and what is not. And the truth is: the Neocons and Israel pulled off 9/11 to achieve just what they have achieved today. And they aren't done yet. If you think that you can project onto them any semblance of "normal thinking" processes and thereby predict what they will do, think again. They need to be stopped, and they need to be stopped NOW. They are criminals and there is NOTHING they will not do to stay in power.

» absolutely! Posted by: Nordic
» RE: Ignota nulla curatio morbid Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
Ignota nulla curatio morbid
Posted by: Chevaliere on Feb 17, 2007 3:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Monbiot and AlterNet have again done a grave disservice to the striving for peace and justice on this planet. This is due to the fact that most people simply do not understand what we are dealing with here: psychopaths in power. Once you understand that, then you can easily understand that it is not only possible, but it is probable that the Neocons were complicit with Israel in pulling off 9/11 in order to further their aims of global war with the intent of capturing of resources.

Those who seek peace in this world and an end to injustice (which I presume is the aim of the founders of AlterNet and Mr. Monbiot himself), have ready to hand the single most effective means of achieving that: the Crime of 9/11. With a unified movement to truly solve this crime and bring the guilty to trial and punishment, all of this war and economic disaster that all of you rail and whine about day after day could finally be understood and optimal solutions found and implemented.

But none of this will happen as long as psychological deviants are in power.

If you would like to learn about what the problem REALLY is, then consider the two following reviews of the book Political Ponerology: The Science of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes:

Catherine Austin Fitts:
http://www.votesolari.com/catherinesblog/?p=96


Carolyn Baker: Speaking Truth to Power
The Science of Evil and Its Use For Political Purposes

*************
The bottom line is this: IF AlterNet and George Monbiot really are after solutions, they will first educate themselves about the problem and then, once they understand the true nature of the madmen who are driving our world over the brink, they will know better what is true and what is not. And the truth is: the Neocons and Israel pulled off 9/11 to achieve just what they have achieved today. And they aren't done yet. If you think that you can project onto them any semblance of "normal thinking" processes and thereby predict what they will do, think again. They need to be stopped, and they need to be stopped NOW. They are criminals and there is NOTHING they will not do to stay in power.

» Nice post, but... Posted by: summerhill
» Saudi Arabia, not Israel Posted by: Nordic
» RE: Saudi Arabia, not Israel Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
» PNAC fyi Posted by: rwa
the abuses of the bush administration
Posted by: profmarcus on Feb 17, 2007 3:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"[The makers of Loose Change] are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power," says Mr. Monbiot.

what's interesting to me is that the known, "real" abuses of power by the bush administration are so sweeping, so shocking, and so destructive to the fabric of the united states, and, by extension, the world, that i have zero doubt that what remains UNKNOWN is bound to be more so by a matter of many degrees...

my attitude is this... i believe everything and i believe nothing... i think it is a terrible mistake to become obessed with conspiracy theory, just as much as it is to become consumed with an ideology, a religion, or a cause... i also believe it is a terrible mistake to discount, attack, and ridicule such theories, particularly when it is well known that such theories do not spring up in and of themselves... there are almost always a few grains of truth...

i believe that the government in the united states, along with most governments in the "first" world, have a great deal to gain by perpetuating the conditions for endless war, holding populations in the thrall of fear, sowing misinformation and disinformation, establishing both subtle and overt social controls, and keeping rivers of cash flowing into the "right" pockets... without doubt, they've been extraordinarily successful in this so far...

perhaps mr. monbiot, with whom i agree more often than i disagree, should take a moment to reflect on how much he DOESN'T know, rather than spend all his time expounding on what he THINKS he knows... also, perhaps alternet should consider re-thinking its own recent focus on discrediting the 911 truth movement because it's beginning to look like an obsession...

And, yes, I DO take it personally

» RE: the abuses of the bush administration Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
There is no conspiracy, SKEPTICISM is your friend
Posted by: volscho on Feb 17, 2007 3:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The evidence against the 9/11 Truth Movement's claims is so overwhelming that the beliefs are equivalent to Bigfoot, alien landings, water dowsing, ESP.

The laws of physics cease to exist in the 9/11 truth Movement.

Their is much better evidence in favor of the idea that a neoconservative ruling class jumped at an opportunity to implement its pre-conceived foreign policy ideas using 9/11 as the excuse. It is about capitalism. money, and power.

Here is a theory. They let bin Laden slip away because if they caught him, the public might not support sending troops to overthrow secular Hussein, seize his oil fields, build a pipeline through Afghanistan and on to the Iranian front (note Iran's proximity to the Caspian sea). "War on Terror" would have to be aborted, though now it looks like a miscarriage.

As the U.S. position in global economy has been declining since 1973, there is an effort to restore our economic power using our military power.

I Smell Multipule Rats On This One...
Posted by: kanekoa64 on Feb 17, 2007 3:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It certainly is a quandery...
On one side, theres is compelling circumstancial evidence that suggest we need to pay a lot more attention to what this administration omits in its findings on any subject it comments on, let alone the one single event that Dubya and friends use as a catalyst for their fake war. On the other, we have to remember that george and friends arent all that clever. They surround themselves with greedy like minded people who will do anything for them, so much so that they f*** up royally on a regular basis enough for us to "Find Waldo" if we just care to turn our heads just a little. We are talking about idiots who wrote fake e-mails and made fake phone in commentaries to right wing talk shows during the first campaign to get "lame brain" in office, saying things like "Im a left-wing, atheist, Gay pot smoker on welfare, and I love Al Gore!" It took us a while to catch on to the depth and breadth these shitty humans were willing to go to to spread thier evil. When we finally came together on realizing how foolish we were to trust the other side to act responsibly, and back track over the spoon fed Rupert Murdock poison they fed thier Sheep like voter/followers, we had this backlash panic effect take place that made us feel out of touch with our own country and fellow countrymen. I would not put it past these shit eaters to try and fan the fire of conspiracy just to divide us against ourselves. The thing I like about it if it's true is they're willing to shoot themselves in the foot to do it. I absolutely do believe there is more than meets the eye in the 911 scenario, and it IS entirely possible that a lot of it, if not all of it is true. But the author of this article brings up some valid points as to the origins of the evidence, the motivations behind it and the reasons it hasn't been pulled off the shelves. Gore and Naders movies riled the right wingers a lot more, and caused far more backlash than "Loose" did because it hit them right in thier big, fat, shortsighted wallets. Regardless, I think it's time to get the bastards out in the open by means we can prove without question. Solid evidence of the lies, greed, nepotism, cover-ups and just plain evil they have wrought on this country. In the background. Very quietly, we should have some folks doing a little fact finding, grabbing evidence before they can hide it and making it loudly public when they find it. That way we won't have to wait until the last guilty bastards die before we find out what really happened. For example, thats the only time we will EVER find out what really happened to the Brothers Kennedy. Even though we all have a pretty good idea about the truth. And thats enough to make any conspiracy theory worth a second look.

A lot of good questions asked, the same wrong answer applies
Posted by: medbear on Feb 17, 2007 4:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Why didn't GWB want an investigation?", "What about the opinions of so and so?", "Why did the Mayor clear the site so hastily?".

Darned good questions. And they should be asked. But when the answer is "Because there is a sinister conspiracy", things turn from decent to plain stupid.

The biggest miss with "Loose Change" is that any really good question, any resonable evidence that not all happened exactly as the government/commissions/investigations proclaims is drowned in a desire to draw it to its most ridiculous and unfounded conclusion.

There might have been wrongdoings, faulty judgements (now, that's an understatement), sloppy work done. But one wrong does not prove a conspiracy. One question unanswered doesn't make the whole scene a conspiracy. One unpopular Commander in Chief, even with all the hidden agendas in the world, does not prove a conspiracy.

The will and fevor to take any scrap of inconsistency or questionable evidence as proof positive of the ultimate conspiracy ranks about equal to making shipments of tubes and grainy sattellite photos of truck as proof positive of Iraqi WMDs.

There is something ELSE that has always stuck in my craw...
Posted by: bribos99 on Feb 17, 2007 4:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me a while to pull my head out of...ummm...all the clouds of misinformation but when I did, it occurred to me that one central question of the "Official Conspiracy Theory" bothered me more than any. Less than an hour after the events of 9/11 a world wide press release named Osama Bin Laden as the perpetrator of "these heinous attacks..."
Less than an hour...
Yet, more than 40 years have passed and there is STILL
no definitive answer to the question "Who REALLY killed President Kennedy?"
And another question: why is Woody Harrelson's dad, Charles, ex CIA, sitting in lockdown in the SuperMax prison in Colorado?
just wondering...
Item last: the authour ponders the question of how such a "huge conspiracy" could happen in today's "confessional society?"
Combine the many who need to 'be a part of' with the people who are a part of because of what they are and, by all standards, this conspiracy is really not hard to believe at all.
"Loose Change", AlterNet and people like Alex Jones, David R Griffin and Michel Chossudovsky are laying the groundwork to complete what Michael Moorer started with Fahrenheit 911: opening the eyes, and minds, of this country, and hopefully bringing about a change of mentality and morality in this country.
p e a c e

We Know for Sure...
Posted by: bigbad on Feb 17, 2007 4:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that the neocons were willing to "sacrifice" thousands of their most loyal American patriots (soldiers) and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians in the actual invasion and occupation of Iraq.

It's very easy to believe they would kill thousands in NYC and a few elsewhere to get it all started.

» RE: We Know for Sure... Posted by: medbear
Another smear from the Israeli-occupied Alternet.org
Posted by: scott.gregory on Feb 17, 2007 4:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 2 greatest spin jobs of the anti-conspiracy nuts, like this author, is that (1) they pick on one source and try to defame it (or they create their own flawed "source" and then defame THAT, for which the authors are always well paid), then use that result to defame the CONCEPT of a conspiracy, ignoring all the other sources,and (2) that the conspiracy couldn't have happened because "the government" couldn't carry it off.

Well, no one is saying that the U.S. government did 9/11; no, it was a private special op centered around the multi-generational Bush crime family, other allied wealthy, and their ties to elements of the CIA, together with elements in foreign (particularly Zionist) secret services. Those people DO and DID have the ability to carry off the conspiracy, and many other conspiratorial crimes as well.

2 jet planes could not have leveled three buildings in the WTC complex. There is clear evidence of controlled demolitions in all three buildings. WTC 7, the 3rd building that went down late afternoon is a good example. Mo one has adequately explained that (third) free-fall, in foot-print collapse. One explanation was that is was too damaged from other building collapses, which no on-site observor can attest to and there is no photographic evidence. If it collapsed from "damage" from the other collapses, it would have not gone down in footprint at free-fall speed. And if it had to be "taken down" as the manager of the WTC complex says in "9-11 Revisited" his explanation being that there were fires out of control (not a reality with those constructed buildings), then that is Prima Facie eveidence that there were preset demoliton charges, as no one could have come into the building and carefully placed in the corrrect locations the necessary charges for a vertical free-fall collapse, while the building was on-fire and "damaged" from the collapse of the other buildings! The charges had to be there prior to the day of 9/11. Clearly the "official explanations" of the events at WTC on 9/11 change with the context, but taken together, the explanations and their sources clearly indicate a coverup, and where there is a coverup, there is a conspiracy.
Alternet you make me sick; you're a shill for the MSM/ruling classs gangster capitalist elements that control this nation.

» It's called demagougery Posted by: brunowe
What an IDIOT
Posted by: mrandmrskindbud on Feb 17, 2007 4:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this article is an idiot.

» Thanks for Thinking. Posted by: kanekoa64
» kanekoa64 - Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: kanekoa64 - Posted by: kanekoa64
» All valid points Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: What IDIOT Writes Something Like This!? Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
Worthless
Posted by: maolson on Feb 17, 2007 4:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A worthless article!

» RE: Worthless Posted by: summerhill
all or nothing
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming on Feb 17, 2007 4:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Black and white, yes or no, up or down, for us or against us.
How about a somewhat less simplistic approach, to this subject and to how this administration approaches everything?

I've seen Loose Change, and it did make me more of a skeptic. I don't accept all of their points as valid, feeling some were over the top, had reasonable alternative explanations, or were big answers based on small evidence.

However, it made me think, and it made me want more--and more objective--information (though I don't expect to see any). I'm not ready to swallow whole without chewing the all- or-nothing position on either side.

GIVE THIS FIGHT UP - YOU HAVE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY
Posted by: summerhill on Feb 17, 2007 5:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
AlterNUT SUCKS so bad! It's Monbiot who's the idiot. Being able to understand the TRUTH of 9/11 doesn't have anything to do with how one feels about Bush. Where was NORAD? Why all the put option sales? Why do Pentagon employees, there on 9/11, tell you flat out they saw no plane? Why the perfect explosions / demolitions? That was an A+ demolition job. Why the networks right after 9/11 stating the truth then changing their tune? PLEASE STOP with the TOTAL CRAP. I can't even stand getting AlterNUT headlines in my email anymore. THE more you SCREAM your READERS are IDIOTS, the more you PROVE you are!

Find out for yourself, go to Chandler Feb 23-25
Posted by: DrXyzzy on Feb 17, 2007 5:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to the 9/11 Accountability conference next weekend Feb 23-25 in Chandler, AZ and see for yourself. One of several gatherings over the past few years put together by volunteers. I was involved in organizing the Chicago conference last year. Lots of work but a huge payoff seeing so many people come together to share ideas and concerns. Attendees came from around the world, and far from being gibbering idiots, many are accomplished students of history, geopolitics, economics, etc.

911accountability.org

» Prophit, if you go... Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: Prophit, if you go... Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
9/11 hysteria ?
Posted by: itchyvet on Feb 17, 2007 5:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to opednews.com then check out john dor's article rebutting this, excellent reading and leaves poor Mr Monbiot floundering.

Who is the Silence Protecting
Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 17, 2007 5:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that so many people are considering conspiracy theories because of what they have seen in their own lives. I lived in the West: California and Arizona and what was going on out there was unbelievable. I saw it with my own eyes! Our government has a history of experimenting on its own people and whatever that was is a doozey. Let them come clean about what they did to people and about what it really was. Until they do, rumors, confusion and speculation will reign! (Unless of course that is what they really want!) As the antimind control folks say "Who is the silence protecting."

Who is the Silence Protecting
Posted by: Gravitas on Feb 17, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that so many people are considering conspiracy theories because of what they have seen in their own lives. I lived in the West: California and Arizona and what was going on out there was unbelievable. I saw it with my own eyes! Our government has a history of experimenting on its own people and whatever that was is a doozey. Let them come clean about what they did to people and about what it really was. Until they do, rumors, confusion and speculation will reign! (Unless of course that is what they really want!) As the antimind control folks say "Who is the silence protecting."

I'll Take YOU Somewhere....Part 1
Posted by: wawa on Feb 17, 2007 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THAT DAY, Chapter 10 "KEEP HOPE ALIVE"

Jack had been restless for three days. Julianne was in New York City at her sisters and wasn’t due back for three more. His knees began throbbing more the moment she drove out of sight the morning of September 8, 2001.

After returning home on Monday night from The BLAC: Brother Lawrence Addictions Center, Jack mindlessly ate two Lean Cuisines, then spent the rest of the evening trying to read. He fell asleep just before dawn and dreamt he was on the blacktop running track at the middle school where Julianne taught 7th grade English; and where they both rollerbladed in the early mornings before the kids came to campus.

Jack spent a ten hour day at The BLAC, as its Founder and Administrator, and the mornings on the track were when the couple had their best conversations. He inhaled the aroma of tar as he wondered what was keeping Julianne from him. He bladed for what seemed like hours when a silver spandex clad apparition with a golden helmet flew by, sharply turned and with a backward stroke, called out, "Hi Jack, don't look down, don't look back, look out straight Jack, look out straight!"

"Yeah, I can, I can do that." Jack bellowed back to the apparition that had already vaporized into the distance. Then Jack rolled onto an exquisite grace; knees freed from bone on bone grinding and not an ache within his fifty-three year old body that had been abused by two motor vehicle accidents and hours of over use syndrome. Jack glided upon the blacktop effortlessly for what seemed like hours, when suddenly, a roar of thunder assaulted his senses and his eyes were magnetized upward, to view two fireballs thrown down from on high, miles from where he stood. He saw them hit the ground, one traveled east, the other west, and then they circled back around, burning a path straight towards him. Just before they collide, Jack woke up not believing he had only been dreaming.

Not until after he had downed a pot of coffee did the phone ring. "Jack? Are you watching TV?" Maureen, the Day Supervisor at The BLAC asked as she fingered the framed mission statement that sat upon every desk and on the north wall of every room that Jack wrote in 1984;

"Peace, peace, peace. God's peace be upon you. But living today in a time of war, crying out peace, peace, peace, where there is no peace. Fearing age and death, pain and darkness, destitution and loneliness, people need to get back to the simplicity of Brother Lawrence." [Dorothy Day]

Brother L was a monk in the 17th Century who lived in a monastery and was consigned to the kitchen. He spent his life baking bread and chopping onions, scrubbing pots and floors. He ran all the errands, did all the shopping and always brought back the finest of wine. He loved his brothers deeply but they merely tolerated his many eccentricities or he was totally ignored...Truly, I tell to you, if ever a saint was born to bring hope to the addicted and those afflicted with obsessive compulsive tendencies: he is the one. For Brother L learned that by continually re-remembering the Lord, no matter what the activity, or where one might be, the Lord was ever present and a holy habit was born, just re-remembering that."

Jack thrived on curiosity and spoke as he reached for the remote, "Mo, you know I never watch TV in the daytime, what's up?"

"Well, isn't Julianne visiting her sister in the City?"

"Yeah, in fact today's plan was to meet her sister's co-workers on Floor 101 of the North Twin Tower."

"Jack, turn the TV on."

"Oh Mo, I just did, my God, is it the end of the world?" He spoke as he hung up the phone and never heard Mo say, "I don't know."

TBC

A 'world without destinatoin or purpose?
Posted by: drabikmr on Feb 17, 2007 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I first viewed "Loose Change" - some where around last year's political campaign time, I already saw that it had much in common with the the moon landing conspiracies: a bunch of facts strung together by sophistry. Immediately after viewing it I did a bit of internet research and revealed the B.S. these kids where trying to shoot. I dismissed it as a kind of "liberals gone wild": an attempt to finally show the world the true face of our plutocratic President "W" and his cronies. They failed.

So, by and large I agree with the author of this article; however I take issue with his statement that we live in a a "world without destination or purpose".

If this nihilistic statement is true why even care about global warming or privatization or inequality or the pultocratization of our nation and etc . . .? Why not just throw in the towel and just take bunch of pills at bed time or hang myself in the attic? Perhaps then, lapsing into nothingness I can finally find 'Nirvana" and blend in with the general consciousness of the universe (the Force as some might call it) and be at peace (unless I reincarnate to just go through it again in another form)? Posh!

Our world, chaotic as it seems, has purpose and destination. Being a Christian - the God-Man gives me that purpose. "The glory of God is Man fully alive" said St. Irenenaus of Lyon in the second century. Being fully alive as a human being for eternity is what it is all about. The "Loose Change" people and plutocrats both provide an anesthesia that keeps our humanity down.

Being fully human with eyes open is what is needed.

So, the statement that our world is purposeless serves only to keep encouraging us to careen through time on a collision course with ourselves which is what Hell really is.

Screw This BS!
Posted by: kanekoa64 on Feb 17, 2007 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I entered this discussion thinking it my start a debate on issues and an exchange of ideas, but all Im hearing is a bunch of whiny conspiracy film addicts cry about having the teat pulled out of thier mouth for a moment to breathe in something other than the stale smell of rebreathed "Loose Change" theories. The stories even bigger than you think, you chumps! Ever heard about conspiracy theories ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES?! And if you don't want to read any more commentary from AlterNet, and your cancelling your e-mail subscriptions out of OUTRAGE for having DARED put anything beyond your simple little minds to fathom, Then BEAT IT! You may as well hand the guys who made the F-ing movie all your dough, and sign em up for an Oscar Nomination! Yoru forgetting, Dipshitz... It's A MOVIE! Big shocker here... THEY MADE IT TO MAKE MONEY!
Im sure AlterNet will miss your wisdom amd even handed commentary, as well as your ability to dialog with varying points of view.
SEE YA!

» RE: Screw This BS! Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: Screw This BS! Posted by: kanekoa64
9/11 Unanswered
Posted by: motamanx on Feb 17, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Monbiot had, firsthand, seen the hole in the Pentagon, and seen the size of a 757, he would not so eagerly embrace the "official" version of 9/11.
There is no way a plane that size made a hole that small and then burned to nothing. And if that is what the Commission says happened, then the Commission is part of the whole dastardly plot. In fact, the 9/11 thing has finally gotten too big to contemplate...

» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: mjabele
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: tiellis
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: mjabele
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: babs
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: mjabele
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: Don Garb
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: mjabele
» mjabele - Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: leftwright - Posted by: mjabele
» mjabele - Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: 9/11 Unanswered Posted by: Ranillon
I'll Take YOU Somewhere....Part 3
Posted by: wawa on Feb 17, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She turned the TV on just as the shofar sounded in New York City and hundreds of priests, rabbi's, sheiks and clerics of all kinds filed onto the stadium in front of a sorrowful nation. Kat became luminous, "Wow, look at how beautiful all that is! All those holy ones in their uniqueness and all the shades of people in the stands reaching out to each other. How blessed we are in America to live amongst such diversity and how beautiful to see us coming together out of such sorrow. This is the way we can let the pain go; reaching out to the stranger, and we comfort them and heal ourselves. America's worst day has brought us and the world together. Why, it's only a few angry cowards and mad men who did the evil, the international community can confront this together by confronting this evil as sister and brother. What an incredible opportunity America has been given to lead the world this way and not seek revenge. Imagine the dysfunctional family of Father Abraham building on this momentum, to confront the evil that is terrorism by confronting it with good and unity amongst us. Didn't St. Paul say that the only way to resist evil is with good?** Imagine how much better the world will be when America chooses not to use military power but discover why these mad men did this evil and go after that! The global village is the community to address this issue, terrorism is everywhere and now America has woken up to the fact that we are not immune. We are all in this world together, we either learn to share it as sister and brother or we will blow it up."

Terese responded, "Kat, human nature is to strike back and seek revenge, but we have the witness of Christ, Gandhi and Reverend King how to effectively respond to violence. I hope and pray this President follows their way, but I see hawks circling."

Jack cleared his throat and intoned, "Another thing is that acting out of fear makes one do stupid irrational things. You know I have always said, never ever ever never react out of fear, for the gospel is fear not! And fear drives out compassion and hardens the heart."

Kat was mesmerized by the TV, Terese sighed deeply repeatedly and Jake brooded.


In a log cabin nestled with in the thickly wooded mountains of upstate New York, Jack sat in a darkened room with the TV on, but he wasn't watching. When the shofar blew and grabbed his attention, he froze until the rams horn went silent and there upon: popped open his sixth beer of the day for Jack had fallen off the wagon.

*The Groom in Christian lingo is God.

** "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."- Romans 12:21

READ MORE on WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org

Good bye AlterNet
Posted by: UncleBuck on Feb 17, 2007 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Open your eyes. Opposing views I appreciate. Nonsense like this doesn't deserve attention. This article is Republican double-speak. What's next, hyperbole from Ann Coulter? Science articles from Exon? Philosophical meanderings from Wolfowitz? Goodnight AlterNet and good bye.

» RE: Good bye AlterNet Posted by: rwmk12
» RE: Good bye AlterNet Posted by: Yankee0451
» RE: Good bye AlterNet Posted by: MrAllen
connect the dots....
Posted by: medicis on Feb 17, 2007 5:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It ain't too hard. Monbiot.....Alternet......Monbiot.....Alternet

There has been a concerted effort by the so-called left wing press and others, once noted for some integrity like the BBC, to discredit the 9/11 truth movement. And what does the movement demand.... an independent, thorough investigation of the events of 9/11. Apparently, it is now unreasonable to desire the truth. Face it, anybody or any organization that seeks to obfuscate, hide, mislead, disinfo... that seeks to prevent a real investigation - not only of 9/11 but also regarding any potential cover-up and conspiracy (and yes, conspiracies occur all of the time)... The motives of anybody who seeks to hide the truth are obvious and they, dare I say it, are engaging in treasonous behavior. One can hope there will be an accounting someday.

Cover UP.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Feb 17, 2007 5:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The colapse of WTC 7 has to be the strangest story ever told.

Because of the obvious fabrication of why the WTC 7 colapse, I have to conclued that the government is hiding something. What could it be?

» RE: Cover UP. Posted by: Urstrly
» RE: Cover UP. Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Cover UP. Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Cover UP. Posted by: summerhill
» RE: for Profit Posted by: saywhat
Earmarks
Posted by: tiellis on Feb 17, 2007 6:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This latest lame effort to pooh pooh the alternative, unofficial explanations of what happened on 9/11 has all the earmarks of the others: a pervasive tone of ad hominem ridicule, a mindless parroting of official reports, and a complete failure to address the actual questions raised by Griffin, Jones, and a host of others. Also, it focuses on Loose Change--an amateur effort--and completely ignores 9/11 Mysteries a far superior documentary that builds a painstaking and compelling forensic case for controlled demolition.

In response to all of the above, I would ask the following questions:

--By what law of physics can the top fifth of a building crash symmetrically right through the lower four-fifths at freefall rate, in 9 seconds, without encountering any resistance? Especially when the buildings were hit asymetrically, on one side only, and one of them began to tip over, but then righted itself?

--No steel-frame building in history has ever imploded into its own footprint without controlled demolition, under any circumstances. Why should we believe that on 9/11, 3 huge steel-frame skyscrapers did just this, especially when only two were hit?

--The First Law of Thermodynamics states clearly that energy output can never exceed energy input. By what law of physics can an airplane impact, a quickly exhausted jet-fuel explosion, office fires on about 4 floors that had turned mostly to smoke for lack of oxygen, and the disproportional force of gravity on only damaged corner of one section of the 47 steel columns at the core, create enough energy output to symmetrically level and pulverize a skyscraper in 9 seconds flat, leaving pools of molten steel at the bottom that were still super-hot several weeks thereafter?

I'm sorry, folks. My brain is quite intact. I fear that those who still buy the utterly preposterous, physically impossible official story are those whose brains have been sucked out...

Game, Set, Match
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 17, 2007 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's about time somebody called these 'filmmakers' to task. With their wild imagination and disregard for facts and reason, they could have a bright future at The Faux Newz Channel, the National Enquirer or advising the Bush Administration.

» RE: Game, Set, Match Posted by: tiellis
» RE: Game, Set, Match Posted by: NoPCZone
The Romans did the same with Hannibal
Posted by: JERSEYDAN on Feb 17, 2007 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The romans let Hannibal skate for awhile after defeating him because the Roman people were scared shitless of him, and the Roman rulers thought is wise to keep Hannibal alive in North Africa because the people could still be intimidated into thinking he might find a way to attack again. Once this was no longer deemed useful, Hannibal was quickly dispatched.

Nowhere.... but the TRUTH
Posted by: xbj on Feb 17, 2007 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ANYONE in their right mind who believes that a CIA asset from the Bush's best friend family in the entire Mideast, in rags on dialysis in a cave without electricity, trained a gang of moptop revolutionary Islamic fundamentalists (who hung out in strip clubs, did lines of coke according to the strippers they hung out with, drank and swore like Saudi/NSA/CIA double agents on a mission to LEAVE THE LOUDEST TRAIL POSSIBLE) to go to America, and then learn to fly commercial jetliners into skyscrapers, and then pulling "g" forces that were mechanically impossible (due to the built-in safeguards of the piloting system IN EVERY JET that protects passengers from serious bodily harm, that furthermore were impossible to override unless completely turned off by military remote control from the ground) and THEN further believes that fires of those jets' fuel, that could not have possibly burned hot enough to melt structural steel, made said skyscrapers collapse, is simply dumber than Bush's CLIPPED TOENAIL.

And flying high on poisoned Kool-Aid... I understand it is quite the high before you KEEL OVER DEAD, with that Chinese-made American flag clutched in your dead, dead hand.

» RE: Nowhere.... but the TRUTH Posted by: ragmachine
wings "disintegrated when they hit the penatgon"?
Posted by: rjm on Feb 17, 2007 6:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
how is it then that the wings of the planes that hit the twin towers ripped right through massive steel girders on impact?

The debunkers have done a fairly good job with a lot of this material, nonetheless the fact that the plane that was supposed to have hit the pentagon simply doesnt fit in the hole that was left indicates something suspicious.

In all of the debunker work that I have seen thusfar, none have sufficiently dealt with this particular issue.

After the wings and tail "evaporated", were they then "beamed up"?

tks,
rjm

» Try taking a basic architecture course Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
There is a common thread...
Posted by: kenhymes on Feb 17, 2007 7:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a common thread which links the reporters who use straw men like Loose Change to trash anyone who questions the official 9/11 story: they are center-left journalists working on the edges of large media institutions, hoping to be considered "sound" enough to join the big boys' club. Monbiot and Eric Alterman, for example, both have an obsession with distancing themselves from the "loony left." It's interesting that these stories appear with no news cycle prompting... nothing in particular has happened, there is simply a felt need on the part of these writers to establish their credentials as reliable center-left reporters.

I would suggest that we avoid lumping all the questions, and the questioners, together. There are serious difficulties with the official story, and very odd behavior of people in power in the days just before and after the attack. That doesn't prove that the attacks were planned by the US government. It doesn't even prove that they had foreknowledge and allowed them to proceed. It does warrant continued questions and probing, because this event was a big deal.

Whatever the circumstances that led to 9/11, it was a turning point in our nation's history, allowing a cohort of ideologues to hijack our nation's foreign policy, and leading to serious erosion of civil liberties at home.

There is every reason, based on a clear track record of lying and coverup, to distrust any statement that issues from the White House or the Pentagon. I don't think one story in Popular Mechanics is enough to put aside the questions about the mechanics of the collapse of the towers. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that by some means a group within the government COULD have made use of assets in a covert, deniable way to bring about the attacks. As others have pointed out, smaller versions of such outlandish schemes have been distributed on paper within the government over several administrations (such as the documented plan to assassinate pedestrians to foster "unity" in support of anti-Communist policies).

It need not have involved thousands, or even dozens. There really are Islamic extremists who are willing to die for a cause... maybe they just needed a little nudge. Or maybe what's being hidden is that someone in the NSA knew it was coming, passed on the foreknowledge to a few key players, and the neocons saw their opportunity. Or maybe what's being hidden is just massive stupidity: they were warned, they were too worried about trashing Bill Clinton and the next election to do anything, and any trace of their massive incompetence has to be buried in lies.

We may never know. And in the age of YouTube and bloggers, every outlandish unresearched viewpoint is available. But can anyone give me one good reason to trust anyone associated with this White House or the Pentagon on any matter of importance? Didn't think so... therefore, the only option in seeking the truth is to sift through a large number of alternative sources. Perhaps eventually the light of truth will shine most clearly in a particular direction... it may take a while... what's the hurry to bury the process? Are we afraid the Democrats might look silly? A little late for that. Are we afraid the great progressive victory will be endangered? Don't hold your breath. The restoration of the rule of law and constitutional democracy would be plenty for me right now. And you can't have those things if the government can lie and bomb with impunity. The truth matters, and it takes a while when the liars hold all the cards.

LetsDance
Posted by: JonPaul on Feb 17, 2007 7:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article by George Monbiot does exactly what it accuses "LOOSE CHANGE" of doing, but does it deliberately. While loose change is not perfect, it does outline the information that is dispositive of the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CONPIRACY THEORY. Only a self deluded idiot could watch the major media footage of the collapse of WTC 7 and conclude anything other than the self evident fact that is was destroyed by controlled demolition.


Dutch demolition expert Danny Jowenko, Google it, was not aware of the destruction of WTC 7 until he was interviewed. He was shown the footage of WTC 7 coming down without knowing what building it was and when it came down. He said it was undoubtedly controlled demolition. When told that it was WTC 7 and that the video showed it's destruction on 9-11-01 he was incredulous. He still said that he was certain that what he watched was controlled demolition done by experts who knew what they were doing. Nothing in the hack article written by George Monbiot and published by AlterNet can refute the reality presented by Danny Jowenko, a world renowned demolition expert with decades of hands on experience in building demolitions.

Chew on that, AlterNet 911 Truth Gatekeepers.

» RE: Letdowns Posted by: Mycos
George Monbiot & the BBC Debunking Conspiracy
Posted by: Bulldog on Feb 17, 2007 7:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Brit I all too regularly see Monbiot making big T-shirt and banner exploits on BBC TV to complain about Virgin Atlantic and other polluters.
According to Wikipedia Monbiot is a big time former BBC presenter and his Father is the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party. (So what, my dad was Darth Vader but I struggle to get published in the Guardian when a nuclear leak at Sellafield occurs).

Monbiot's own Website states in the 'About' section:
"George Monbiot is the author of the best selling books The Age of Consent: a manifesto for a new world order and Captive State: the corporate takeover of Britain; [...]. He writes a weekly column for the Guardian newspaper.

During seven years of investigative journeys in Indonesia, Brazil and East Africa, he was shot at, beaten up by military police, shipwrecked and stung into a poisoned coma by hornets. He came back to work in Britain after being pronounced clinically dead [...]."

Say no more, Govn'r!

The MSM is waging a half-hearted attempt at mocking the 911 Truth movement this week in a run up to a culmination of this project with Sunday's showing of "The Conspiracy Files" on BBC2 at 21.00Z.

See my reservations & doubts about the show at:
Juntawatch.com

Zombie! Go home! I retort.

Wake up
Posted by: dainin on Feb 17, 2007 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://911research.com/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html

http://stj911.org/ryan/garcia.html

9/11 Conspiracy Deniers
Posted by: ragmachine on Feb 17, 2007 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm getting a little tired of finding these 9/11 Conspiracy debunkers given space in Alternet so often. It's not like the MSM doesn't ignore or marginalize any deviation from the "accepted" story enough. The real 9/11 Conspiracy is the story some guy in a cave halfway around the world orchestrated the events of that day with no complicity or negligence by the good folks from PNAC, Israel and the White House. Oh excuse me for repeating myself, PNAC and this White House are the same thing.

Where does Monbiot pick up his money, from Rove, Cheney or is it more convoluted to hide the trail.

» RE: 9/11 Conspiracy Deniers Posted by: helenwheels
EXACTLY RIGHT!
Posted by: Mycos on Feb 17, 2007 7:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now you fools who were tricked by that physicists nee Mormon cult leader turned liar turned "Hey, these guys are buying it anyhow , so I might as well lead them around like lab-rats here and see how much they'll swallow on the left of the wing-nut scale".

You are letting the neocons get away with their foreknowledge of Osama's sworn attack, one they'd known was in the works ever since Bush Sr. provoked OBL by ramping up in Saudi Arabia...a move he said he'd kill Hussein himself if Bush Sr. didn;t defile Mecca/Medina. But now all the circumstantial evidence of foreknowledge cannot be investigated by anyone with any reputation due to their being placed in the Dan Rather camp along with those stupid "Free-fall:" or demolition of the towers ideas...all plainly dispelled by simply talking to the firemen and watch the video, theories I thought only the right-wing-nuts were dumb enough to swallow.
Just goes to show that the trauma of watching those towers fall seems to have twisted minds across the spectrum.

Knock it off! Just pretend to go along with the foreknowledge charges long enough that we can at least have a investigative journalist find enough to get a special prosecutor to discover all the rest that you think you know is out there OKAY!?? You're doing what Nader did to us back in 2000 by splitting the left enough that the worms wiggled through.

New Investigation with an Independent Investigation Panel
Posted by: aussidawg on Feb 17, 2007 7:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One major thing that seems to be detracting from the credibility of the 9/11 Truth Movement is the fact that there are so many diffferent theories, many of which I must admit are almost comical they are so far out. However, I don't agree with the "official" story (and that is exactly what it is) for the following reasons:
1) Why did Bu$h resist any investigation at all into what happened?
2) When it was clear that there was going to be an investigation why did Bu$hco insist on putting the investigation panel together himself rather than have an independent party select the commission?
3) Why is it that Bu$h and Cheney would not testify either alone or under oath?
4) Bu$h could have never attacked Afganistan or Iraq without 9/11 first occuring.
5) Without 9/11 first occuring the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II, Military Commmissions Act, Warner Defense Act wouldn't have had a hoot in hells chance of being passed.
6) Had Bu$hco been caught illegally wiretapping U.S. citizens without a warrant in the absence of 9/11, he would have been hung out to dry in Iraq.
7) How did 19 amateur airline pilots (of which 5 are still alive and well) penetrate U.S. airdefences, including NORAD and fly commercial airliners into their respective targets when the skill level required to do this exceed that of most veteran commercial airline pilots?
8) How is it that there were put options made on the twin towers, American Airlines, and United Airlines the day before the attacks and who profited from those put options?

I have just touched on a few items, but basically, all of the unitary executive branch power is dependent on the attacks of 9/11. Even if you accept the findings of the 9/11 Commission regarding the physical evidence involving the actual collapse of the twin towers, the 9/11 Commission Report cannot possibly be accurate or complete because the above remains unresolved. There is something very wrong here. The Bu$h regime aquired virtually all of its power from the attacks on 9/11 yet neither Bu$h or Cheney would cooperate in the investigation. In fact, they did all in their power to resist any investigation. This is screaming for a new investigation by a panel or commission that is selected by an independent party and where all witnesses are questioned under oath. The 9/11 Commission's Report is as much a conspiacy theory as are any of the others. It is imperative to find out what happened and why. Otherwise, those involved will remain walking around free, just as they are today, having gotten away with the biggest crime in the history of this country.

nothing to see here, keep moving sheeple...
Posted by: art guerrilla on Feb 17, 2007 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MANY of the problems surrounding nine one one which have yet to be addressed -much less answered- are not related to speculation of causes of the collapses, disputed eyewitness testimony, or consideration of the (MINIMAL!) physical evidence, but have to do with the reactions and 'coincidental' facts which surround the events...

things that make you go "hmmm..." :

1. the handing over of 'shootdown' authority from the generals in the field, to rummy just months before nine one one... (and then *back* to the previous arrangements *after* nine one one ? ? ?) nothing funny there...

2. (as mentioned) the MULTIPLE WAR GAME scenarios being played out that same day WITH MULTIPLE HIJACKED jets being 'simulated'; yet virtually ZERO comment from 'our' (sic) fearless leaders, etc ? ? ? THAT ALONE -and the subsequent near TOTAL BLACKOUT in the media- is VERY suspicious, no ? ? ? i'm CERTAIN there is an innocent explanation for that... (*psssst* quck, make one up out of thin air based on no facts, that will shut them up, george...)

3. the weird differential between how cheney was whisked off within seconds (while in one of the most secure areas of the world), and how king george kept up his bullshit photo-op during the disaster in an insecure and -presumably- potential target area at a SCHOOL full of kids, fer chrissakes... nothing weird there... *IF* there were 'real' (outside/unknown) terrorists doing these attacks, WHY wasn't king george II whisked the fuck out of there from such an exposed location only a few miles from an airport ? ? ?

4. evidently, 'hundreds' of eyewitness testimonies (of course, monbiot doesn't bother citing, linking, or quoting same, it is all just vague waving of the hands... hmmm, pot/kettle, geo...) regarding the pentagram crash is acceptable to 'prove' that a plane crashed there, *AND* the moronic ASSERTION that the plane just disintegrated into thin air; yet multiple eyewitness testimony (AT THE TIME OF THE EVENT) that explosions were popping like firecrackers at the WTC (including recordings of blasts, as well as seismic evidence), *THOSE* whacked out witnesses ARE NOT reliable...
again, not to mention the 'contrary' witnesses at the pentagram who had different recollections of events, including smelling cordite/explosives, etc... *those* eyewitnesses simply aren't credible...

gee, wonder how senor monbiot made *that* determination; did he just take pop mechanic's word for it... *snort*

5. (again, as mentioned, but bears repeating) the jawdropping INSISTENCE by king george and court that there should be NO, ZERO, NADA, NONE, EVER 'investigations' AT FUCKING ALL ? ? ? are you fucking kidding me ? ? ? THAT ALONE should be cause for 'our' (sic) kongresskritters to jump up and down screaming and wondering what the fuck is going on here...

...but they didn't... (maybe sumpin' related to those 'thrax attacks; gee, funny how they never figured *that* out, either; especially after it looked like an inside job... i'm absolutely certain they would have figured that out if it was, you know, like, important...)

6. do mssrs monbiot et all EVER address the MULTIPLE FBI agents who were pursuing investigations of nine one one hijackers, but they were warned off, pulled off, and shoved off the cases by higher ups/washingtoon ? ? ? nothing suspicious there, so we don't even need to talk about it... *shhhhh*
(cont)

nothing to see, part deux...
Posted by: art guerrilla on Feb 17, 2007 7:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(cont)

7. is the failed (or was it?) temporary policy change of 'fast-tracking' visa requests in arab countries which allowed in several hijackers and terrorist cronies (USING THEIR REAL NAMES *AND*, i repeat, *AND* on 'watch' lists at the time), was *THAT* ever talked about at all in the mainstream media ? ? ? oh, how about the tiny factoid that the state deparatment personnel who made the decisions to approve said visas IN SPITE OF BEING DECLINED/WARNED ABOUT BY OTHER state dept officials, were NOT disciplined, raked over the coals, or otherwise demoted...
nopey dopey, they were -IN FACT- given BONUSES and PROMOTIONS IN SPITE OF THE FACT THEY APPROVED VISA APPLICATIONS OVER THE OBJECTIONS OF OTHER STATE DEPT PERSONNEL THAT LET IN NINE ONE ONE HIJACKERS...

nothing funny there, don't gawk...
(of course, nothing funny about THE FACT that NOT ONE PERSON, NOT ONE AGENCY, NOT NO ONE NO HOW NO WHERE was EVER demoted, chastised, fired, disciplined or otherwise censured for incompetent actions during nine one one...

in other words: our secuirty system and procedures 'worked' absolutely fine and dandy on nine one one, no reason to examine or change anything or find anyone incompetent...

oh, thats comforting to know...

8. myers etc 'meeting' during the attack and NO ONE can be bothered to knock on the door of the acting joint chiefs of staff to inform him that amerika is under attack!?!?!? jiminy crickets!!! that sure was one intense 'meeting'... (or a convenient 'excuse' -however lame- for not responding to the attacks in any timely or effective fashion... similar to rummy's lamely 'explained' absence for the critical first response period...)

9. (as mentioned) the nearly COMPLETE lack of interest and followup on WHO bankrolled the operation (*psssst* DON'T look at the pakistani branch of the CIA (ISI); just WHERE the put option profits were going to, etc... not really very interesting stuff... *yawn*

(oh, you might not know -since it wasn't worth reporting in the mainstream media- but it wasn't just the couple millions in put option profits that were 'frozen' out on the day of the attacks, but there were many, Many, MANY millions of dollars made on similar put options etc, that were raked in *before* nine one one, so, you know, those don't count (they must have a 'get out of jail free' card...
oh, you might also want to know, the german firm we sent various recovered harddrives to from the WTC site, DID find backedup evidence of *MANY* suspicious transactions, but well, the gummint just asked for the harddrives back and told the germans to shut their schnitzel holes...)

(cont)

nothing to see, part trois...
Posted by: art guerrilla on Feb 17, 2007 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(cont)

10. the VERY SUSPICIOUS manic efforts to 'cleanup' the CRIME SCENE before even basic forensic analysis could be done, samples collected, etc... the god damn columns, beams and girders (CRIME SCENE EVIDENCE) were cut up and shipped off to china/etc before they had even cooled...
yeah, guiliani is just a neat freak, i guess...

(speaking of which, there are MULTIPLE 'coincidental' decisions and actions surrounding nine one one which don't 'make sense' on the face of them, but *DO* make a perverted sense in the context of a k-k-k-konspiracy, e.g.: guiliani -AGAINST the advice of nearly everyone involved, locating the city's emergency command center in WTC7; marvin bush, o'neill, etc...)

11. the BIZARRE and immediate assertions by condi and the rest of the king's kourt, that NO ONE could possible IMAGINE and anticipate that hijacked planes would be used in such a fashion... huh ? ? ? are you fucking kidding me ? ? ? besides the fact that any normal sixth grader could EASILY 'imagine' such a scenario, there is AMPLE evidence -besides the ongoing war games we've already agreed to ignore- that gummint types had 'imagined' such a scenario on numerous occasions...
INCLUDING a year previously where they simulated a jumbo jet crashing 'into' the pentagram...
(actually -oddly enough- they had the jumbo jet crashing in the *CENTER* courtyard (hitting nothing) instead of the builiding itself; i guess that made the war gaming more convenient...)

12. the -you know- non-story of HUNDREDS of israeli spooks, 'ex' spooks, and 'art students' being hastily deported sometime after nine one one, with nary a peep in the mainstream media about what *that* was all about... (not to mention the stories of israeli 'movers' who were filming/celebrating the collapse of the towers; they disappeared, nothing suspicious to see there folks, avert your gaze...)
nah, not a sexy or important story at all, and CERTAINLY had no connection to nine one one... i'm certain of that, because george monbiot didn't even address those issues, so must be nothing to it after his exhaustive research.... *snicker*

13. speaking of israelis, the FACT that their spooks were living near and associating with KNOWN HIJACKERS FOR YEARS before nine one one... (as were some or 'our' FBI/etc informants) just another kwazy coinkydink... (but not suspicious, so stop thinking like that...)
(i suggest kampers visit daniel hopsicker's site to learn more about the 'radical' muslim atta, as well as the VERY strange associations of various spooks, foreign/dual nationals, and the airports and flight training schools where many of the alleged hijackers lived...)

14. the whitewash krewe (otherwise known as the nine one one commish) which -besides having their hands tied behind their backs- found basically nothing, because they set out to find nothing, was an OUTRAGE (if you had been paying attention)... 40-50 millions to 'investigate' where bill cliton's dick had been, but we can't spare but a couple mil and a severely limited schedule (initially) to investigate THE BIGGEST KRIME IN THE HIS STORY OF THE UNIVERSE !? !? !?
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ? ? ?
zelikow, kampers, he is the bush cabal's water carrier who stifled, filtered, misdirected, censored, and stymied the limited and weak 'investigation' which did occur...
(cont)

To the Unbelivers
Posted by: ccluelessfl60 on Feb 17, 2007 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you see the film made while the twin towers were being built you would see the columns in the center were the support, not the outer edges. There were so many redundant protections build in those building that they could not fall from simple planes. All the steel girders I ever seen have to be cut with an acetylene torch not kerosene fuel. The author may not understand how black ops works, but they never talk. No it was not members of our true government but they sure worked hard to cover up the facts. Like Kennedy we may never know, but we will never stop demanding answers.And if what we believe can be proved why wouldn't the world want to know? How many coincidences will it take to convince the unbelievers that something is rotten about this whole deal.

» RE: To the Unbelivers Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: To the Unbelivers Posted by: summerhill
noting to see, part quattre...
Posted by: art guerrilla on Feb 17, 2007 7:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(cont)

15. the KRIMINAL malfeasance, misfeasance, and outright lying to ensure the public and the first responders that the air quality at 'ground zero' was 'safe'; and the subsequent deadly exposure by thousands to the toxic soup...
DESPICABLE and PATHOLOGICAL behavior from the most sociopathic gruppe of madmen to occupy an amerikan administration in our his story...
these men and woman are capable of ANYTHING -including the cold-blooeded murder of thousands of Americans- and have been exposed as liars and cheats on an astounding range of issues; THEY ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED ! ! !

17. as far as the 'establishment' pooh-poohing any and all k-k-k-konspiracy theories for their changing nature (to be expected when no information is forthcoming from 'official' sources), and absurd implications; it is the ESTABLISHMENT who continually changes 'explantions', 'scientific' speculations, and 'reasons' for the WTC collapses, as well as shifting and shifty 'interpretations' of inconvenient eyewitness testimony...

it is the ESTABLISHMENT which would have you believe a bizarre litany of beyond-all-probability coincidences, chance occurences, and REPEATED failures of the security process, state dept, FBI, military, spookdom, as well as foreign agencies, which *supposedly* led to nine one one...

THAT is what passes for the ESTABLISHMENT'S 'reasoning' and 'explanations' for events that transpired...

18. lastly, how about all the -supposed- warnings we received from a host of different countries' intel groups (as well as more informal warnings like willy brown's...) ? ? ?
nothing suspicious there... probably all made up by those koo koo kwazy k-k-k-konspiracy kooks... *snort*

i could go on -as more knowledgeble truthseekers could as well- but that is off the top of my head as to *some* of hte unexplained, unanswered areas of inquiry that COULD be answered with appropriate investigations...

hmmm, ain't it funny how all the 'debunkers' choose the wildest fringe theory to 'debunk' ? ? ? ain't it funny how they choose the areas where there is little/no evidence and we skeptics are FORCED to speculate on various aspects ? ? ?

ain't it funny how they either refuse or don't address MANY of the issues -such as the above and more- where THERE IS solid, real, credible evidence and testimony...

and li'l georgie porgie puddin'head simply accepts the assertions of his betters as being good enough for him...
some 'investigation'...

THE ONLY THING i had to see on loose change (and other nine one one films) was the repeated/slomo replays of the collapses of the WTC 1/2/7 bldgs... WITH MY OWN STUPID FUCKING EYES i can see that *SOMETHING* ain't right, period... i don't give a shit what dylan what's-his-name/etc SAY, you only have to LOOK at that footage to see the weirdness going down...

IF a TRULY informed American citizen (or -even moreso- a journalist worth their salt) doesn't know the REPEATED and SUCCESSFUL efforts of ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, and HORRIFIC 'black ops' (official and unofficial) power elite players HAVE -in fact- executed MANY TIMES OVER, then they are not able to rationally decide what power elite kreeps ARE capable of doing to further their agenda and maintain power...

'our' (sic) gummint is perverted, The They (tm) are capable of anything, and the mainstream (korporate) media is complacent or complicit...

» Best Comment on Here Posted by: grim ripper
» You read like Mike Malloy Posted by: harpy
» RE: noting to see, part quattre... Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
Oh not again........
Posted by: Neilium on Feb 17, 2007 7:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Geez, this bloke what is he trying to do
It's the Jews that did it! Everyone knows the jews invented communism, and look what happened to that.. what people don't seem to take too much notice of is that the jews invented Aliens and space craft... just go look in the old testament, they have been doing this long before jesus came along and messed it all up
Yep, no doubt about it.. the jews again.. for sure.. oh and how can a pair of wings hit a building at flying speed and not make any marks on the walls?
May I offer the answer.." fucked If I know" and I challenge anyone except a jew to tell me how..( cause they are really really smart)

» Thanks, Neilium Posted by: Moore Hognutz
» RE: Oh not again........ Posted by: babs
Move along...
Posted by: davcrock on Feb 17, 2007 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just more 9-11 Conspiracy loonies engaging in bad pseudo-science. Next they'll be arguing for intelligent design and young earth.

» RE: Move along... Posted by: MrAllen
When will we learn- we've been dumbed down
Posted by: gdonald on Feb 17, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the definition of conspriracy theories in any dictionary. The worse thing that the 9-11 theories do is they are based primarily upon physical evidence. Physical evidence is the most unreliable evidence to primarily base any argument on because it can be spun in so many directions. All the 9-11 movements have long ago lost their credibility to do any further good because they have all fallen into the trap of basing their opinions on physical evidence alone. There is one person, Micheal Ruppert who skips the physical evidence and fallows the paper trail. His book crossing the Rubicon is probably the best sourced and documented book on 9-11-01 and exposes who the real facilitators of the day are and supports it with paper trails.

However in looking at all the books, documentaries, and articles written about 9-11-01, When Will We Learn, that it has been over five years and no politician, no prosecutor, no law enforcement federal or state has then or now shown any desire to do their duties and arrest and prosecute anyone other than the patsy terrorists or supposed terrorists. The fact that all these 9-11 movements cannot grasp the reality of this, is a talking point for me to realize that they don't live in reality or they are just milking the foolish for all the money they can make before the movements die off.

Not until we the people develope some brains, stop voting for the main two party system that has brought us all this corruption, death and destruction, will there ever be any hope of saving this Republic. Unfortunately, most writers that submit articless for Alertnet haven't the mental capacity to even understand we aren't a democracy. So if these brightest are this ignorant about such an important historical matter, how do we ever think we'll grasp with intelligence the seriousness of these other matters.

We've been so dumbed down by public education, including universities, that we the people are now our own worst enemies. Sheep being led to the slaughter and not wise enough to use common sense and logic to see through the folly of our own political sytem that keeps us trapped in this war of words. We don't even understand the words and phrases we hear or use.

Here we go again with the heads in the sand
Posted by: fifthworld on Feb 17, 2007 8:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Amazing, Don Hazen of Alternet, why you who clearly know better, want to present this kind of myopic trash that can't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. The Truth movement has done its homework -- now how about picking up the ball?????

And as another post-er said, indeed, how about something of the latest (or even oldest) by Tarpley, Griffin, or any of the many research scientists, engineers, firefighters and others on the scene, and on and on, who know something irrefutably STINKS to high heavens and that there's been a cover-up of epochal proportions?

Alternet has really dropped the ball by not pursuing this disastrous and overwhelmingly serious issue in a worthy way. When the next false flag attack comes, here or wherever, I'll turn and vomit in your general direction.

we're overwhelmed by Novelty
Posted by: nor cal surfer on Feb 17, 2007 8:06 AM   
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it was a novel event, prepared to happen in front of our eyes. delayed so cameras could record it. it was designed to produce this exact effect, the effect being a never ending war and erosion of civil liberties. it was designed to, at the same time, enrichen the coffers of the planners. it's really simple.

what's hard is getting answers, as we all have the questions.

and as we spin, locked w/spinners, they deploy more, kill more, wire tap more, render more, and disappear more.

they knew it would come to this. given that most people are sheep (including a lot of our so-called leaders), is it any wonder that they cannot be controlled with the kind of threats that keep spies from talking? you talk, we kill you and you whole family. end of story. makes me think about Wellstone, but that's another topic... and i'd sure keep quiet if someone was threatening to kill my kids.

this is MJ-12 kinda stuff. Israel, neocons, whatever you want to *call them*, wanting to control the planet, the oil, the money. this type of power struggle is as old as time, and woven into our DNA.

is there power in numbers? sure. but they're betting they can beat the numbers.

because they sure are a minority.

(and apologies if i've stated the obvious)

» one last effect: debate Posted by: nor cal surfer
» If you want to get active Posted by: LeftWright
» thank you so much Posted by: nor cal surfer
» go to dc911truth.org Posted by: LeftWright
Don't insult our intelligence
Posted by: luckypablo on Feb 17, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet,

Please don't expect us to keep visiting your site if you are going to put articles like this one that don't make sense and really are not well well researched.

Sincerely,

Paul Arellano

» here here Posted by: nor cal surfer
Monbiot overstates the problem at the end a bit
Posted by: Earthian on Feb 17, 2007 8:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George Monbiot says this in the second to the last sentence:

>>They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. >>

Not exactly George. They are *unknowing* agents of the Bush Regime, *unwittingly* distracting people from its real abuses of power. (Not "employed" by anyone.)

They are not conscious, willing co-conspirators with the Bush Administration, but are simply people whose criteria for causation lacks an essential factor--evidence. (Asking questions that cannot be answered, as many of these causation-understanding-deprived people do, is not an argument, nor is it evidence, but rather it is just a fallacy. For more info on fallacies, go here: www.fallacyfiles.org/)

Other than that bit of editing, the strength of Monbiot's argument lies in that fact that he has a firm grasp upon that which is obvious.

Pepetrators Of 9-11 Are Law Breakers...
Posted by: Carl Street on Feb 17, 2007 8:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...the laws of physics -- regardless of your political and philosophical persuasion, it comes down to that.

Admittedly, we do not, cannot, and probably will not ever know what REALLY happened.

But we CAN know what did NOT happen and what did NOT happen is the "official story" (stories?) because they could not happen within the physical universe wherein we reside.

Which begs the question, "WHY are we being lied to?"!!

And, since there is NO shortage of qualified physics and engineering personnel within the offical community, obviously the officials MUST know they are telling us lies.

Sadly, many people are in denail; and are acting like jilted wives being told of their husband's playing around -- they are adopting a head in the sand attitude because they just do not want to confront the awful truth. So they twist and turn and rationalize and will grasp at believing the most outrageous alibis to avoid dealing with the truth; but, of course, denial changes nothing. Time to grow up and deal with it; the sooner, the better.

an overlooked point
Posted by: dddddd0814 on Feb 17, 2007 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11 conspiracy theorists exist, and I guarantee they will continue to exist.
The overlooked question is why?
Regardless of whether or not one thinks a conspiracy of some sort has occurred, the questions remain since, like the JFK assassination, we were not provided with ample information from the government on the details of the attacks. Hence holes in the story, hence the existence of conspiracy theory.
Don't blame the players, blame the game!

word.

Forget Loose Change, go watch this...
Posted by: rockpicker on Feb 17, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://911busters.com/911-Commission.html

Please, everyone must watch this testimony given in NY in Sept. of '04. In particular, hear Indira Singh read Sibel Edmonds letter to Tom Kean, and then go on to talk about Ptech. It is riveting stuff! Also, listen to Rupert's case. If he doesn't convince you that a real investigation needs to take place, I think you must be brain dead.

Thank you, Alternet, for keeping this subject alive. Unwittingly, your persistant denials have given us cause to continue our research.

Until recently, I was not aware Cynthia McKinney and others had come together to discuss, and film, such damning expert testimony as appears on these video tapes.

They will be Bush's undoing. Mark my words.
And you fruitcakes will be exposed for the shills you are.

If you're interested in the truth, write about Ptech.

My guess is, that would take some real journalism skills, and cajones you folks don't possess.

regarding http://lolloosechange.co.nr
Posted by: jolmichr on Feb 17, 2007 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watching this is like sitting through a movie with a moron intent on declaring (aloud) every single individually perceived plot discrepancy. And most movies (documentaries too) are going to have flaws. We can probably all agree that Jamie Lee should have severed Michael's head the first time she knocked him unconscious but this does not justify a teenage rant involving her lackluster survival instincts.

I sat through 30 minutes of this video -- long enough to be insulted 5/6 times. And what ridiculous comment shall I point out? How about this one:

"Crashing, as in not being used as an oversized missile. Big difference between the two scenarios."

How insulting is this? As if an opponent’s fist crashing into my face somehow differs from said opponent using his fist as a missile to destroy my face. HOW INSULTING IS THIS ???? An Alternet reader advised me to watch this -- now that is what scares me.

Sure there are holes in loose change. These holes can be defined as views which rest more on personal opinion/observation of available data in the absence of definitive proof(often captured and detained by our govt to protect national security). And there are probably even more offending assumptions. But what was done here is beautiful in that American youth produced this. Not the lackadaisical bunch that are breaking bottles, flashing titty, and getting STDs over spring break. They're not quite the average indifferent youth we are generating today. They may actually be able to tell you who Theodor Herzl was or who our allies were in WW1or 2. They may know what a mandatory minimum is. They just might be aware of the class war that has exists in our country and the part played by politicians and corporations. Give credit where credit is due. Sure Alex Jones could use a more professional tone and vernacular and this would probably yield him a broader audience and greater credence but we cannot dismiss topics discussed (such as posse commitatus or Greenwood) based on delivery alone. I was glad to hear that Alex spoke at UT and wished I could have sat in. Given that universities host the Gwen Ifills and Sean Hannitys, they should also host those on the periphery…especially in Austin.


These people are not millionaires getting rich talking about dead blondes and Hollywood. We need to focus our attacks on big media, which serves more to profit that to educate. Anna Nicole occupies 90% of the television screen while scrolling text in the remaining 10% informs of us of human beings killed by bombs in Baghdad….and this is CNN.

It’s hard to stay awake with so much lulling us to sleep. We need to focus on what we have in common and stop picking each other apart. To dismiss what we cannot definitively prove as fact or fiction is equivalent to giving up. That may be OK when we are so far removed but that may not always be the case.

AlterNet Agents for the NeoCons?
Posted by: AlohaTerry on Feb 17, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why post this drivel from some no-know-nothing NeoConspiracy Nincompoop Apologist? BADAlterNet, BAD!!!! If you were my dog, I'd stick your nose in it!!
Extremely Disapointing Behavior !!!! BAD DOG!!!

» RE: Boctaoe Posted by: rockpicker
» Give me one person who was Posted by: gary_7vn
» here's one Posted by: Nordic
How do you explain the five Israeli intellegence agents...
Posted by: truthteller on Feb 17, 2007 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who were arrested across the Hudson in Bergen Co. NJ, in a van, video-taping the attacks, high-fiving each other and holding cigarette lighters up in front of the cameras like fans at a rock concert looking for an encore? Early news reports that people taped off the original broadcasts clearly talk about their arrests. They said they were there to "document the event". All references to them have since disappeared from all major media references to the events of the day. They were quietly spirited out of the U. S. several days later.

How did they know there was going to be an event there to document? Even if the buildings were not wired to implode, this whole attack smells like an inside job. How could four jet liners disappear from their flight plans for over 30 minutes without any air force jets being scrambled to intercept them? Several months before 9/11, when golfer Paine Stewart's chartered jet suffered catastrophic decompression that killed all aboard and left the plane to fly on auto pilot until it ran out of fuel and crashed, Air Force jets were scrambled to intercept it within minutes of it's getting off-course.

There is no doubt that this illegitimate, treasonous administration and it's Zionist masters (Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Libby, etc.) wanted something like 9/11 to happen, expected it to happen, and at the very least allowed it to happen, as an excuse to implement the policies that have brought us to the brink of ruin.

Another hack burnishing the lie
Posted by: JMorse on Feb 17, 2007 9:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Monbiot's article reveals only his opinion which is, as such, unsupported by fact. He is neither a structural engineer, objective, open-minded, or otherwise qulaified to state uncategorically what happened in lower Manhattan on Sptember 11, 2001. Who is he to judge, really?

Don't take the bait folks. Understand that Monbiot is merely a lowly functionary tasked with burnishing a lie. Attacking Loose Change is a convenient target, much easier than taking on Dave Griffin, or Mike Ruppert. That would be a different matter and Monbiot is not in their league.

Besides, realize too that Monbiot's critical thinking abilities have been comprimised, he having once contracted a case of cerebral malaria. Nasty disease, so be nice, OK?

Also, realize that Alternet is not at all a level playing field. So, keep your shorts on, try to understand the enemy, and learn to recognize the various guises they adopt in diverting you from your quest to know.

» great response! Posted by: Nordic
Manuel Garcia Sees Physics That Don’t Exist (deconstruction of a phony debunker)
Posted by: rwa on Feb 17, 2007 9:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by Kevin Ryan

Over the years we’ve heard from a few educated people who claim to understand and support the latest story given by the US government for the unprecedented destruction of the WTC buildings. Unfortunately, those folks usually turn out to either work for the Bush Administration directly, like FEMA and NIST, or are in some other way profiting from the War on Terror. Some people accept what these Bush scientists say because they have PhDs in scientific fields, or because certain media sources promote the official myths. In a way, the curious behavior of these scientists and media sources allows us to better see the predicament we all face.

With the case of Manuel Garcia, and his three recent, rapid-fire articles in Counterpunch, we appear to have another opportunity to examine the phenomenon of Bush science. Here we see a fully educated scientist making strong supportive statements of the Bush Administration’s 9/11 theories, despite the fact that he must know those theories are based on false or unsubstantiated claims. For our own understanding, let’s take a closer look at Manuel Garcia and his efforts.

Garcia not only works for the government, he works for a very interesting organization in terms of the best hypothesis for what happened that day. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL), Garcia’s employer, appears to be where explosive thermite was invented, and it continues to be a focus of research there.(1) At LLNL, government scientists have learned how to combine the exothermic power of the thermite reaction with organic moieties to produce a thermite reaction that can do pressure/volume work (i.e. turn massive quantities of concrete and other building materials into dust). From the research of Steven Jones, we know that the thermite reaction likely played a role in bringing the towers down, and it would not be surprising if technology developed by LLNL was involved. Could that be why Manuel Garcia is so intent on seeing Physics that don’t exist, in order to avoid seeing links to technology developed by his employer?

There may be more to it than that. Notice that there are many aspects about the official story of 9/11/01 that strain credulity, to say the least, but none more so than the “collapse” of the WTC buildings. As with the air defense failures, we’ve been given several contradictory stories about these events over the years, none of which have panned out. The first was an urban legend that grew, as a result of the long delays in official commitment, from media reports of extreme temperatures and melting steel. We were given other stories for the destruction of these buildings, but the Pancake Theory, which was the primary explanation offered by FEMA and was the central explanation in numerous media stories, lasted for a period of more than three years. The Pancake Theory recently died a quiet death with the FAQ responses offered by NIST, but as with the urban legend media stories, we have been offered no apologies from those who propped-up the ongoing 9/11 Wars with these false claims.

So when a US weapons scientist, like Manuel Garcia, offers more wild speculation in support of the Bush Administrations’ ever-changing stories, we must first recognize that this is not really about serious researchers quibbling over minor details of physical evidence. We must realize that Garcia and his ilk have already given us several false stories for the destruction of these buildings, and those lies have resulted not only in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, but have also supported the systematic conversion of America into a totalitarian state waiting to happen. What will become of those Bush scientists if honest people ever achieve the awareness and political will to call for a real investigation?

Full Article:
http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/118632

No Need for a conspirecy
Posted by: orfelbleep on Feb 17, 2007 9:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you can look at the obvious lies this administration has used to get us into this war. If the people want to indite this administration all they have to do is impeach everyone of them based on the false evidence they gave us concerning WMDs, et.al. Use your energy there, not on the vague and arguable details of the 911 conspiracy. YOU ARE wasting valuable time and effort going that direction. Use the "known knowns" and go after these rats.

» Well said, Hetware Posted by: LeftWright
» you're missing the point Posted by: Nordic
Loose Change has Lots of Problems
Posted by: gary_7vn on Feb 17, 2007 9:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact I have yet to hear a truly convincing alternative narrative of what really happened that day. This lack of a convincing detailed narrative is not proof however, that the official story is true. The official story, which is itself a massive conspiracy theory, is far less credible than Loose Change. The "authour" of this article (if we can call a cleverly crafted hit piece an "article") is not doing himself or Alternet any favours by calling a large percentage of Amerikans (and an even larger percentage of the citizens of other countries), idiots - fools and dupes.

Loose Change is hardly the apogee or the sine qua non of the many alternate explanations of what happened that day. There are many other coherent and well thought out theories, and the authour has done nothing to refute them, in fact he has refuted nothing, just ridiculed. Just look at how he describes William Rodriguez, who was a custodian for 20 years at WTC - as a "janitor" as though some "low life" like a "janitor" can never assist a great mind like the authour with his inquiries. If this Bush mouthpiece had ever listened to or read an interview with Mr. Rodriguez, (which he has clearly not) he would have seen a brave, intelligent individual with no history of mental illness or lying, telling what he saw that day, that's it. He is a witness. The fact that he is was a "janitor" is meaningless, just as the age of the Loose Change film makers is irrelevant - if this is how the authour evaluates evidence it is no surprise that he has arrived at an erroneous conclusion.
Rodriquez is a hero, read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez

Standard disinfo
Posted by: rwa on Feb 17, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Monbiot starts right off with propaganda tactics and ad hominem attacks. The 'virus' analogy is supposed to spin the snowball effect of the 9/11 truth movement as a mass delusion, a black hole to which people are being helplessly and irresistibly attracted. According to Monbiot, opponents to the Bush regime are irrational thinkers who would accept anything to fuel their hatred, a talking point familiar for being overused by Bush worshippers, especially to deny now proven facts such as US torture and CIA prison camps in Europe. Of course, such a point of view leaves totally out of the question that people may be able to think for themselves; apparently they need to be saved from 'bad' ideas by expert thinkers like George Monbiot.

The Fatal Flaws of the 9/11 Conspiracy Movement
Posted by: Ranillon on Feb 17, 2007 9:52 AM   
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If the 9/11 Conspiracy movement wants the rest of us to take them serious then they have to stop endlessly committing the fatal flaws that make their ideas look incomplete, unconvincing, and having more to do with satisfying deep seated psychological needs than an actual search for “truth”.

1) They must realize the burden of evidence lies with them: This is likely the biggest flaw of the whole movement, namely that it often thinks that somehow it is the job of others to disprove their claims rather than theirs to disprove the commonly held view of 9/11. It is the 9/11 Conspiracy Movement that is making the claim – that the official explanation of 9/11 is wrong – and thus it is up to them to make their case.
2) They need to realize that the level of proof required in this case is VERY high: The 9/11 Conspiracy movement is making a claim that flies in the face of literally tens of thousands of witnesses, experts, and investigators. That means that if they wish to make their case their evidence must be copious and ironclad. It is disingenuous (and all too common in the 9/11 movement) in the extreme to declare victory after only providing a few bits of data.
3) Submit scientific evidence to peer review: Finding a few supposed scientists willing write about subjects outside their field of expertise is not going to convince anyone by itself. Instead, the movement needs to do what all scientists do – submit their findings to peer review. If they do that and it passes review then at a stroke they’ve greatly strengthened their case. Otherwise, their “scientific” evidence can’t be taken seriously.
4) Stop the arguments from exception: The movement has a great tendency to base its arguments on a few inconsistencies and unknowns rather than a comprehensive explanation of the evidence. The movement must offers us a broad and compelling narrative that brings together all the events in a manner that is more convincing than the “official” explanation.
5) Stop the arguments from incredulity: Again and again we are presented with the spectacle of amateur investigators casually dismissing the well-researched conclusions of experts in many fields with lines like “That sure looked like a building demolition to me” or “airplanes don’t crash like that.” Frankly, the rest of us don’t care about your opinions – not only are they usually from people who have no formal training in the involved scientific fields, but in the end mere opinions are nothing without compelling evidence to back them up no matter who gives them.
6) Explain how the “grand” conspiracy could actually work: Most 9/11 Conspiracy theories require conspiracies made from hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of individuals. In a world where even small conspiracies (think of all the spies that have been found out or for that matter political debacles like Watergate or Iran-Contra) are routinely discovered the 9/11 movement has to demonstrate how a much larger conspiracy could somehow go unrevealed for so long (and calling the rest of us “sheep” doesn’t count).
7) Quit with the insults against those who disagree with you: This is the most obnoxious and self-defeating aspect to the 9/11 Conspiracy movement, namely its strong tendency to quickly attack any dissenters as being “stupid”, “sheep”, or even members of the grand conspiracy (and therefore complicit in the murders of thousands). Not only is this sort of reaction immature and insulting, it is also nothing more then intellectual bullying – you are just trying to intimidate those who disagree with you into silence. Nothing makes the 9/11 Conspiracy movement look more morally and intellectually bankrupt than doing this.

» number 6 Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: number 6 Posted by: Ranillon
» Actually the burden of evidence Posted by: cerealmom
» Hear! Hear! Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: Hear! Hear! Posted by: kwms
» What do you want to know? Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: I'm tired of the tired Posted by: cherenkov
» RE: I'm tired of the tired Posted by: Ranillon
» RE: I'm tired of the tired Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us
» RE: Need to run along, ranillon Posted by: stonehinge
Why can't we get this right?!
Posted by: monkeywrench on Feb 17, 2007 10:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once again, "shooting from the lip" by both the conspiracy theorists and their opponents, such as this author, slaughter the truth. The conspiracy theorists fired too soon, using suspect experts and incomplete science to make their points, while refuse-to-question sceptics like this author use silly exaggeration – like every conspiracy requiring thousands of willful, knowlegable, partners to bring it off – to make his.

But, somewhere, in the science surrounding the 9/11 tragedy, along with information about how our own CIA HAS pulled off conspiracies that have toppled whole governments (the installation of the Shah of Iran comes to mind); somewhere, in all the confusion, lies the truth. There is a core of reality that cannot be denied by either side; why in hell can we not find it?!

For instance, in every conspiracy, only a small number of people know the whole story; the rest know only what they need to know to be useful. And, I ask the author: If you were given a choice between keeping your mouth shut and prosper, or open it and die, which would you choose? We have over 17,000 people in the witness protection program – 17,000! – and none of THEM talk. It's not too hard to keep quiet if it saves your own life.

Also, concerning the mechanical aspects of the collapse of WTC-1 and -2, to my layman's, mechanical designer's, eyes, especially in the case of WTC-2, which only had about 25% of its exterior columns damaged on its southeast corner: what most people don't realize about WTC-1 &-2 is that, unlike other skyscrapers, their major support structure was on the OUTSIDE. It should be obvious by the laws of physics, that with 75% of the exterior columns intact after the strike, WTC-2 would not have fallen straight down neatly into its own footprint, but would have TOPPLED. The odds against all three buildings collapsing in the same way have been calculated at 250,000 to one! In other words, statistically impossible. Once physical laws apparently are violated, we must ask why; and the author's explanation is too weak to stand up. (I could go on and on about just the science of those buildings' collapse, statements by the chief engineer on the project, the liquid molten metal from supposedly unmelted girders found in the basement 5 days later, etc., but there's not enough room here.)

I do agree with the author on one point, though: before either side presents its evidence with certainty, the science and facts backing it up must be more rigorously established. This has not been done with 9/11 by either side – while justice, the integity of our government, and, possibly, the future of our nation, cries out for answers.

The challenge of explaining the collapse of WTC 7
Posted by: rwa on Feb 17, 2007 10:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Described by Jim Hoffman with the following points:


This steel-framed skyscraper collapsed into its footprint with all the characteristics of a standard controlled demolition. * No other steel-framed building that collapsed for any reason has ever shown any of those features — let alone all those features. * No other tall steel-framed building has ever collapsed from fires — the primary cause of WTC 7's collapse according to the official story.

Additionally, we know that FEMA spent eight months of exhaustive work on the investigation, finally claiming that “The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers.” They then added that their “best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence.” NIST has spent several years trying to come up with a legitimate, non-explosive explanation, so far without success.

9/11 Mysteries
Posted by: kcsol on Feb 17, 2007 10:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that this particular "documentary" has propagated a huge amount of information which, for the gravity of its suggestions, is not and should have been accurately and entirely researched.

That said...
I still believe, and I'd assume all readers of this site would agree, that it is vital to seek alternative sources of information--rather than simply swallowing the "Kool-Aid" from an administration that has built up a nice heap of groundless stories itself.

That said...
I think the following video, "9/11 Mysteries," may succeed in the many places that "Loose Change" failed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

And, yes.... some of the music is over-the-top.
And the post-credits text gets rather vague and preachy.

Fake liberals, phony progressives
Posted by: Yankee0451 on Feb 17, 2007 10:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can anyone deny sites like Alternet and Buzzflash are there to provide enough red-herrings to so-called "progressives" to keep them busily arguing meaningless articles like this one, while ignoring the oligarchy's grab for the rest of the world's resources?

I consider the author and this site to be more dangerous than the likes of Limbaugh, Savage and O'Reilly.

» RE: Fake liberals, phony progressives Posted by: redbrownandblueparty
» links: Posted by: rwa
Reality
Posted by: rwa on Feb 17, 2007 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The anti-conspiracy kooks are a fascinating study
of living-in-fantasy. They're so radical in their posture they don't merely scoff at the conspiracies, they recoil in horror at the mere mention of such things existing. Our governmental structures and systems are built on the fact that humans are conspiratorial ( separation of powers, etc) We have multitudes who confess to massive-scale criminal conspiring every year...but..somehow...to the anti-conspiracy nuts.. the very suggestion of conspiracy is some bizarre impossibility outside of the realm of reality.

Operation Gladio, USS Liberty, Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, ETC...?

In law, if you determine a person lies ONCE during his testimony, it can be assumed that he lied in the remainder of his testimony. How come we do not hold the gov't to the same standard as it holds us to?

Here is a Fun Fantasy
Posted by: orfelbleep on Feb 17, 2007 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the manner of many prosecutors, you sometimes have to go for a lesser charge. So... get these guys like Chaney and Bush on "High Crimes and Misdemeanors". Convict and sentence them.
Then give them a little water boarding to get to the truth (supposedly this works). Knowing how bullies usually react to even the thought of a little pain, they will squeal like pigs. IF there is a conspiracy here, it will take a long time to sort it all out. Start small and work up.

» RE: Start small and work up. Posted by: channing
LooseChange 2nd Ed - Sell Out or Deliberate DisInfo?
Posted by: mcooley on Feb 17, 2007 10:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought LooseChange FIRST Edition was very compelling – enough so I blindly waited for the much touted 2nd Ed to buy several copies to give to friends. But the 2nd Ed seemed like an entirely different video – more focused on crackpot theories. I was embarrassed I had even given it to anyone without watching it again myself. I thought it would have been newer, updated, some prior weak points edited out. It seemed like quite the opposite.
I have come to suspect that 2nd Ed is a disinformation tool - planted to discredit and confuse the real Truth.

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id358.html

“…Interestingly enough, in a debate last December, Dylan Avery, the producer of Loose Change, claimed he doesn’t endorse the second edition of his own movie anymore and urged people to watch 9/11 Press for Truth instead, calling it “the 9/11 film you can show to anybody….”

Maybe somebody got to Avery....I don't know what to think.
But the new fancy LooseChange 2nd Ed website looks a little too polished for me now.

Here is a site that has some interesting takes on all the various 911 voices - and explains how it is a quite common tactic to spread DisInfo - by using some Truth AND ridiculous lies together in the same package - so that the baby gets thrown out with the bath-water.

Here is a very interesting site about Peak Oil/911 connection. Check this link and see what you think – read carefully, and also check the many links menu on left column:

http://www.oilempire.us/loose-change.html

“…I have watched “Loose Change” and in my expert opinion it is a very fine piece of CIA disinformation, one that fits an astute maxim by Professor Peter Dale Scott: “Disinformation, in order to be effective, must be 90% accurate.”
Even though the film opens with some of my original research (including images taken from the FTW web site), it quickly sinks into a repeatedly debunked and confabulated hypothesis that no airliner hit the Pentagon. This film is so slickly produced (and on such a large budget) that it is hard to believe that amateur filmmakers could have made it. Once the audience buys into all the credible research at the front, they are quickly swept away in a flood of easily impeached high-tech nonsense, and that was the film’s intent…”

» Jones/Zionism Posted by: mcooley
» RE: Jones/Zionism Posted by: rwa
» RE: Jones/Zionism Posted by: mcooley
» RE: Jones/Zionism Posted by: rwa
» RE: Jones/Zionism Posted by: mcooley
CitizensWatch
Posted by: rockpicker on Feb 17, 2007 10:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go to this site to see video testimony that will blow you away!!

Indira Singh

Sibel Edmonds

Michael Ruppert

Piss on AlterNet

» RE: CitizensWatch Posted by: rockpicker
Wow am I reading Fox news
Posted by: dirtydugie on Feb 17, 2007 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a sophisticated hit piece that I would expect to come from Fox News. All this article does, is attempt to dismiss serious questions about 9/11 by implying that anyone who distrusts the official version has a borderline psychological illness.

Come on alternet ???

At last, an injection of REASON...
Posted by: Pirate1 on Feb 17, 2007 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, the only conspiracy that happened was that someone, a LOT of someones, knew SOMETHING was going to happen. They didn't know what exactly but they wanted some incident to justify giving Bush extraordinary powers to wage a war to sew up what they saw as a threatened middle east oil supply, so they LET it happen. I feel there is a lot of alcohol being consumed by those who knew something was going to come down but never dreamed that there would be a disaster on the scale of what happened. Living with that must be awful.
I have been open to all the information that came down but I now reject most of the "conspiracy" info upon studying scientific research, both that done by experts I respect and from my own research.
People in this country for the most part just don'thave much grounding in science. Most Americans are formidable experts in sports and the merits of products they shop for constantly. This is what they were raised to be... Consumers. Science was some boring class they had to take that didn't seem to have anything to do with their reality. Only nerds got into it. Bush and company knew this and played the card.
Anyone who really paid attention in science and later physics, would remember that common materials behave counterintuitively under extreme heat and pressure. Some solids can become liquids and vapors. Most can't imagine that a material like the aluminum alloys used in airliner wings could encounter a condition where it would totally disintegrate, therefore, to them, based on the hole, what hit the pentagon couldn't have been a plane. These are the same ones who look around them and say something or someone HAD to have MADE everything because they simply can't IMAGINE the scale or the scope of the evolutionary process afoot on the planet since its oceans first condensed out of the combustion of the planet's formation from millions of years of impacts as clumps of matter accreted to form Earth and the other planets. The information is all there but it's easier to fantasize or accept another's fantasy of a supreme being, somewhere who looks like us only WAY bigger. Remember there are still geocentrist cosmologists out there, and flat earthers... so in crises like these nothing ever surprises me as the human imagination attempts to understand a horror like the World Trade Center and Pentagon bombings.
I mean, get real, folks... most people seriously asked the question Bush answered for them... why do they hate us?
We are by and large clueless as to the impact that maintaining our standard of living has on developing countries. To the people that bombed the WTC, I'm fairly convinced they weren't bombing the American people but what to them were the SYMBOLS of the mysery of Global
Capitalism. The world corporate center and the guns that back it up.

» Pirate1 Posted by: LeftWright
What a lame hit piece -- so 2006!
Posted by: cerealmom on Feb 17, 2007 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
umm -- where to start? rather than criticize your obvious hit tactics -- which is just a repeat of what so many of us have read over 2006 -- let's stick to the facts.

Don't tell us tens of thousands must have been involved. You're an idiot to throw out such random numbers.

Questioning the official story does not mean your brain has been sucked out. It's called using your brain and utilizing critical thinking skills. The official story does very little to answer the questions surrounding that day -- ask the Jersey Girls, who BTW are solely responsible for an investigation in the first place, if they are satisfied with the answers we've been given about 9/11.

Also, NIST has never -- i repeat never -- given a physics model showing how the damage caused from fire and plane impact can cause a GLOBAL collapse of both buildings. Period. No physics model in the world can show a global collapse from planes and office furniture fires. They're still working on building 7 5 YEARS LATER! good luck with that.

You think the plane disentigrated upon impact when striking a 'heavily reinfoced' concrete wall at the pentagon? You're a blasted idiot. I guess because it's a military building it's allowed to break the laws of known physics.

Try not to insult the intelligence of your readers and you may actually get someone to listen to you.

Loose Change 2nd Ed - Sellout or DisInfo?
Posted by: mcooley on Feb 17, 2007 10:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(continued)

My current favorites/sequence of videos for trying to spread the word on 911 are:

Oil Smoke and Mirrors - short 50 minutes excellent intro film - as it begins by explaining the "Why" anyone would do such a thing, and then leads into the key undeniable 911 smoking guns. Very good serious non-sensational piece that is a good starter for skeptics.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/25snjr


911 Mysteries - longer video - but an excellent piece of work that focuses on the WTC only.
This film is very important because it ends on a note of

H
O
P
E

You should watch it until the very end - even well past the credits when it has appeared to have stopped - watch it until the very very end - and Bless All of Us.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yquqnu

Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime - another great one.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ywzr2o

I dare anyone to watch these films and not begin to wonder if everything we have been told is true.

One last video I just discovered - it has a very nutty soundtrack - but is a short (35 minute) outline that explains most of the points we have been reading about in the last couple years and how they are all connected....Bush, Bush's big lie, Bush's connections to Bin laden, , PNAC, 911, the Anthrax Attacks, Iraq. Within 2 minutes, this video makes excellent use of Bush's recent admission "that Iraq had nothing to do 911"
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqczuh

These are all on Google Video if you have trouble with the links.

Follow the money
Posted by: rockpicker on Feb 17, 2007 10:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't waste any more time on morons and shills.

Do some homework.

Look into a guy named Yassin Al-Qadi.

And check out Operation Greenquest.

And maybe that will lead you to Joe Bergantino's work concerning Ptech.

Here's a link to help you out.

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/01/
michael-chertoff-and-sabotage-of-ptech.html

no motive is biggest problem with this conspiracy theory
Posted by: eurvater on Feb 17, 2007 10:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The biggest problem with Loose Change has to do with a motive. Two planes hitting the World Trade Center is more than enough provocation for the Bush administration, and all that it needed to have undertaken world-wide retaliation. None of the other stuff is even remotely necessary--so why bother planting explosives in the towers, fabricating two more planes, etc., expecially since that would involve many more people and therefore a much higher probability of exposure, as Monibot's article points out.

» here's a couple motives Posted by: mcooley
» well said, mcooley Posted by: LeftWright
Until a non George Bush controlled investigation
Posted by: owlbear1 on Feb 17, 2007 10:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is done, the conspiracy theories will abound.

Its that simple.

9-11 Never underestimate the naivete, complacency, or the stupidity of the individual.
Posted by: jimzoltan on Feb 17, 2007 11:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course it is a conspiracy. Have you forgotten your history regarding ancient Rome? Have you forgotten the allegory of the cave?

The information era coupled with the manipulation of oligarchic media, is merely the beginning of the naturally occurring and unstoppable control that will be exercised carefully and deliberately upon the world populations.

Those in power no doubt feel a duty to as well as a financial incentive to guide the development of our planet. Do you think for one moment, that the direction of events are left to chance, without an attempt of a guiding hand? Subterfuge and manipulation are the norm or ruling parties, not the exception.

Never underestimate the naivete, complacency, or the stupidity of the individual. In my estimation, the hold and control will only deepen and eventually permeate all of western culture.
Jim Williamson

Wasting time whilst criminal incompetents continue to run country
Posted by: Jenny Sparks on Feb 17, 2007 11:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I don't get is why all this energy is spent attacking people who have damn good reasons to question the OT, and NOT against the people in power who are, at the very least, criminally negligent?

Even if you buy the official story--it's not an excuse. Bush, Cheney and the gang should have been dragged out of office for gross incompetence within months. And don't get me started on the White House clean up of the EPA report at ground zero--"the air is safe to breathe". Because of that tot, the rescue dogs are dead and first responders are dying.

THERE IS NO BLOODY EXCUSE! These are criminal actions by PEOPLE in power--not the bloody weather! You don't wait with your head up your arse until the next election cycle for it to "blow over". You indict the bastards!

So--lets take the official story at it's word, shall we. Then what's more important, smearing people questonong the OT as deluded OR asking why criminally incompetent people are still in power after 5+ years?

linked text

» Good to see you here, Ms. Sparks Posted by: LeftWright
Monbiot's penchant for grandiose gestures.
Posted by: Bulldog on Feb 17, 2007 11:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I omitted to print in my previous post here today:
"George Monbiot & the BBC Debunking Conspiracy" that:
Monbiot was about 10 days ago, featured on UK terrestrial News (probably Channel 4) expounding in his giant art poster supported diatribe against Branson's Virgin Atlantic, that he called 'Branson Watch', the necessity for us all to give up flying on aircraft, completely, full stop!

He has definitely aspirations above and beyond his station

Support Juntawatch.com

Crap article
Posted by: harpy on Feb 17, 2007 11:45 AM   
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This article is again, just a load of crap meant to silence the questions surrounding 9/11 that have never been answered, that Bushco tried successfully to silence. Sorry...this doesn't cut it. Why not have an article that really delves into the 9/11 questions, instead of an article by a guy who cites sources that have been debunked (like the Popular Mechanics article). He states that no scientists or engineers have come forward and debunked the official story...he's just sticking his head up Bush's (or Blair's) you know what and ignoring the ones that have spoken out.

9/11 Mysteries is better than Loose Change...
Posted by: harpy on Feb 17, 2007 11:53 AM   
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and is far more comprehensive. It was a free download from Google, (or can be ordered) and I think did a better job at examining some of these questions.

» Link to 9/11 Mysteries Posted by: harpy
Why Loose change?
Posted by: sourtster on Feb 17, 2007 12:02 PM   
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Going after Loose change is dumb. Loose change is an easy target. I am no 9-11 expert but debunking Loose change in no way puts to rest anything. Loose change is popular and easy to watch and sadly has done a disservice to real investigation.
Some have speculated that the loose change guys are in fact intelligence agents themselves putting out propaganda to break credibility. I don't speculate that - but I think they have accomplished that in some ways.

yes it does
Posted by: diamondvajra on Feb 17, 2007 12:06 PM   
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suck the brains out through the ears of the true believers. i remember people saying the pyramids in egypt were built by space aliens, the nazca lines were really landing strips for flying saucers and ancient humans didn't have the brains to do anything. well, this is of the same cloth, those "stupid" "beknighted" arabs couldn't possibly have done this, it must have been the bright lights of the bushies. for god's sake you morons...if bush and his baddies are as sharp as you say why the hell is everything going to hell in a hand basket and why don't they do a better job of patrolling the middle east? or is that part of "their" plan, after all, they thrive better in CHAOS?

» Well planned chaos! Posted by: harpy
Hey! Check out that elephant!
Posted by: Jackrabbit on Feb 17, 2007 12:51 PM   
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Yo! Fools! Y'all ridiculous.

We don't need to extrapolate possible scenarios for the mechanics of 9/11/01, and this is why: the Bush administration failed the American people and should have immediately been held accountable.

Mr. Monibot and others like him fail miserably to understand the reason for the 911 Truth Movement and in that failure add fuel to the fire. People know that Bush FUCKED UP bad and NO ONE was held accountable and many of the people who were responsible were promoted. Wouldn't you be skeptical? Wouldn't you feel powerless that such egregious incompetence would go essentially ignored?

And in the absence of any real accountability individuals like the creators of Loose Change and the millions who have watched it have desperately sought some kind of explanation for why no one has been held accountable.

It comes from a profound feeling of impotence. A feeling which Mr. Monibot delights in irritating with his condecending tone.

People have a right to their conspiracy theories just as much as Monibot is welcome to his arrogance. We need solutions, not bickering and in-fighting.

What we need to do is to work within the system to elect people who actually HAVE integrity, and pressure our representatives through letter writing and phone calls to be more accountable. Outside of the system we have to work with NGOs that demand accountability and who advocate for what really matters to us, ie health care, education, diplomacy, etc...

The real truth is that we are not impotent. The real truth is that we have the power and it's up to us to exercise it. Let's stop distracting ourselves and get to work on making this world the one we want it to be.

Peace to all my sisters and brothers.

» Who will you elect? Posted by: LeftWright
Monbiot askew on what is the "standard conspiry theory"
Posted by: verite on Feb 17, 2007 1:14 PM   
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The "standard conspiracy theory" is that Osama, acting alone, inspired and paid for some fellow Saudis to train and fly jets into US targets.
This is the theory that needs to be investigated. IMHO, this simple theory lacks evidence and raises more questions than it answers.
A critique concentrating solely on "Loose Change" is a distraction.

Adding gas to the fire
Posted by: orfelbleep on Feb 17, 2007 1:57 PM   
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Checking out the links provided in these posts I ran into an interesting fact. The three senators mail anthrax were all Democrats.... hummmm
And two of them voted against the war.
And Leahy is a VERY strong critic of the admin...hummmmm

This Author is Living a Fantasy - 9/11 Was an Inside Job
Posted by: BillDouglas on Feb 17, 2007 2:59 PM   
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This author's lame attempts to simultaneously support the physics defying official explanation of 9/11, and smear clear thinking people who see through the lies . . . . would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. The so called "left" media in this country has been pathetic lap dogs when it comes to 9/11.

The physics, the Air Force failures, the insider stock trading, the security anomalies at the WTCs before, during and after the 9/11 attacks . . . all point to 9/11 being an inside job.

The behavior of the Bush Admin, including rolling out the Homeland Security, the oil wars, etc. calling anyone who challenged them traitors, was all easy to see through. Project for a New American Century knew they needed a cataclysmic attack on the homeland to get the above, and they got just what they needed on 9/11.

At this point, the only people who deny that evidence points to 9/11 being an inside job, at this point, are A) the uninformed, and B) the corrupted. No one honestly looking at 9/11 can believe the official lies any longer. Too much information has come out.

» It's not my site Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: It's not my site Posted by: rockpicker
» I've seen her site Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: I've seen her site Posted by: rockpicker
And how about those toasted cars
Posted by: rockpicker on Feb 17, 2007 4:30 PM   
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as much as half a mile from ground zero? Engine blocks exploding, while interiors remained un harmed? Gas tanks intact. Paint and wax jobs ok on the rear of vehicles, while the front ends are completely toasted? What could do that? The hoods aren't crushed, so it wasn't falling debris.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/

And how about those steel beams disappearing in mid-air?
Posted by: rockpicker on Feb 17, 2007 4:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take a good long look at this one and tell me what can make that happen? Not Thermite. Not Thermate.

Is this trick photography? Or is this a demonstration of new, ultimately evil technology?

Couldn't happen. Don't believe it.

Google THEL. Tell me what Star Wars was all about.

Oh, yeah. It's new and functioning technology, and the people who have been working on this stuff recognize it when they see it.

Heaven help us all.

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.1)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:24 PM   
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Response to The UK Guardian Hit Piece

For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State

Mr. Monbiot has taken the standard media attack approach: conflate the internet film "Loose Change" with the subject of September 11th US government complicity. How brave to redo the same smear that has gone around for several years now focusing on the easily challenged claims, and ignoring the full breadth (and breathtaking amount) of evidence.

DISTURBING FACTS ABOUT THE 9/11 ATTACKS

1. The president of the United States, when informed that a second plane had struck the World Trade Center, continued to read about a pet goat.

2. This same president was moved from his high rise hotel in Genoa Italy two months previously for security reasons, because of a known al Qaeda plot for hijacking and "crashing an airliner into the Genoa summit of industrialized nations." The assumption in July 2001 was that there existed a plot that "terrorists would try to crash a plane to kill Bush and other leaders" (LA Times, 9-27-01).

3. The Secret Service did not secure the president, even though his location was publicly disclosed in the press for days before the school photo op on 9/11. This was a break in standard operating procedures that left the president vulnerable in the middle of a purported "attack" on America.

4. NORAD has told three different and conflicting stories explaining why no jet fighters intercepted any of the four hijacked airliners.

5. Vice President Richard Cheney was placed in charge of anti-terrorism training and military preparedness exercises by Bush on May 8, 2001. This gave him command authority during the 9/11 attacks because as many as nine war game exercises involving military and intelligence agencies were occurring simultaneously.

6. The military's "Air Piracy" regulations were rewritten on June 1st 2001 to require the "Secretary of Defense" to give "approval" for military escort aircraft in the event of a hijacking. Donald Rumsfeld gave no "approval" that day.

7. More than an hour and fifteen minutes after the first hijacking was reported by FAA, the US military headquarters at the Pentagon was struck without any defensive action taken to stop the attack. The impact was on the west side, for some reason the only side that had been "hardened" with blast-proof windows and specially reinforced walls. None of the highest ranking military leadership were located on that side.

8. (TRANSCRIPT) Air Force General Richard Myers: "When it became clear what the threat was, we did scramble fighter aircraft, AWACS, radar aircraft and tanker aircraft to begin to establish orbits in case other aircraft showed up in the FAA system that were hijacked..."

Senator Carl Levin: "Was that order that you just described given before or after the Pentagon was struck? Do you know?"

Air Force General Richard Myers: "That order, to the best of my knowledge, was after the Pentagon was struck."

Reality intrudes. It became "clear what the threat was," the moment the first hijacked airliner struck the North Tower at 8:45am. This congressional testimony is inexcusable and grounds for investigation into criminal negligence, dereliction of duty, and treason.

9. "President Bush personally asked Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle Tuesday to limit the congressional investigation into the events of September 11..." ..."Tuesday's discussion followed a rare call to Daschle from Vice President Dick Cheney last Friday to make the same request."

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.2)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State


10. The Project For a New American Century, which wrote of the need for a "catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor," had members throughout the top of the government on 9/11 including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Bolton, Armitage, Abrams, Wurmser, as well as Bush's brother, the governor of Florida, Jeb.

11. Four days before 9/11, Jeb Bush activated the Florida National Guard, "Based on the potential massive damage to life and property that may result from an act of terrorism at a Florida port." (Executive Order 01-261).

12. On 9/11 Jeb Bush declared a "State of Emergency" in Florida (E.O. 01-262). "I hereby delegate to the Department of Law Enforcement the operational authority to coordinate and direct the law enforcement resources and other resources of any and all state, regional and local governmental agencies..." And by 2am on 9/12/01, Jeb Bush was reported to have confiscated the police records in Venice, FL related to the Huffman Aviation flight school. Two rental trucks full of these records drove onto a C-130 military aircraft at Sarasota Airport and flew out with Jeb Bush aboard.

13. Huffman Aviation flight school, where Mohamed Atta and other alleged hijackers trained, had a Lear jet seized by the DEA with "43 pounds of heroin" onboard. No one was ever prosecuted in connection with the "biggest drug seizure in central Florida history."

14. The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks on the United States ("9/11 Commission") was a blatant and obvious cover-up under the control of Bush administration member and "Executive Director" Phillip Zelikow. This cover-up can be proven easily with one example: the time of Dick Cheney's arrival at the Presidential Emergency Operations Center ("PEOC bunker"). Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta testified under oath that Cheney was present at 9:20am and issuing "orders" related to the plane that struck the Pentagon. Mineta's testimony was completely omitted from their final report, and a fraudulent time of 9:58am for Cheney's arrival was given instead (book pg 40 / .pdf file pg 57).

15. The 9/11 Commission was originally only given $3 million to investigate the greatest terrorist attacks on US soil in our history. The Bush administration then witheld requested documents forcing the Commissioners to issue subpoenas to FAA and the Department of Defense.

16. So many lies were told by Bush administration officials regarding warnings before the attacks, that it is difficult to count them. Ari Fleischer's two word response, "No warnings," aboard Air Force One on 9/11, sums up the administration's claim.

17. Contrary to the Bush administration's claim: "Newspapers in Germany, France, Russia and London reported in the months before September 11th of a blizzard of warnings delivered to the Bush administration from all points on the compass. The German intelligence service BND warned American and Israeli agencies that terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft and use them as weapons to attack important American targets. Egypt warned of a similar plane-based plot against Bush during the G-8 summit in Genoa last June [2001], a warning taken so seriously that anti-aircraft batteries were placed around Columbus Airport in Italy. Last August [2001], Russian intelligence services notified the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots had been trained for suicide missions, and Putin himself confirmed that this warning was delivered 'in the strongest possible terms' specifically regarding threats to airports and government buildings." -Newsweek, May 20, 2002

the '911 truth movement' is a public relations propaganda operation
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 17, 2007 5:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
denial is not the best approach, is it?

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.3)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State


18. In July of 2001, CIA Director George Tenet and CIA counterterrorism chief J. Cofer Black claim to have made a detailed presentation and warned National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft of imminent attacks on US soil by Al Qaeda operatives. This was also omitted from the 9/11 Commission Report.

19. Many more warnings stretching back to the early 1990s were known to intelligence agencies and to FBI. These warnings expose as a lie National Security Advisor Rice's response: "I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon; that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile."

20. March 7, 2001: "The Russian Permanent Mission at the United Nations secretly submits "an unprecedentedly detailed report" to the UN Security Council about bin Laden, his whereabouts, details of his al-Qaeda network, Afghan drug running, and Taliban connections to Pakistan and the ISI. The report provides "a listing of all bin Laden's bases, his government contacts and foreign advisers," and enough information to potentially locate and kill him. It is said to contain an "astonishing degree of information." The US fails to use the information in any noticable manner. Alex Standish, the editor of the highly respected Jane's Intelligence Review, concludes that the attacks of 9/11 were less of an American intelligence failure than the result of "a political decision not to act against bin Laden." [Jane's Intelligence Review, 10/5/2001; Times of India, 10/8/2001]

21. On August 6, 2001 a CIA briefer went to Bush's Crawford ranch to read the president a briefing called, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" (2 redacted pages out of 11 reported). After the briefing, Bush told the CIA man, "All right. You've covered your ass, now." Bush then went fishing.

22. Minneapolis FBI Agent and Legal Advisor Colleen Rowley (21 year veteran) said that the FBI Headquarters Special Supervisory Agent, "seemed to have been consistently, almost deliberately thwarting the Minneapolis FBI agents' efforts ...continued to, almost inexplicably, throw up roadblocks and undermine Minneapolis' by-now desperate efforts to obtain a FISA search warrant, long after the French intelligence service provided its information and probable cause became clear. ...Even after the attacks had begun, the SSA in question was still attempting to block the search of Moussaoui's computer, characterizing the World Trade Center attacks as a mere coincidence. ...HQ personnel never disclosed to the Minneapolis agents that the Phoenix Division had, only approximately three weeks earlier, warned of Al Qaeda operatives in flight schools seeking flight training for terrorist purposes!"

23. FBI Special Agent Robert Wright (12 year veteran) said: ""[T]here existed a concerted effort on the part of agents conducting counterterrorism intelligence investigations to insulate the subjects of their investigations from criminal investigation and prosecution." ..."The supervisor ...started yelling at me: 'You will not open criminal investigations. I forbid any of you. You will not open criminal investigations against any of these intelligence subjects.'" ..."(T)here is virtually no effort on the part of the FBI's International Terrorism Unit to neutralize known and suspected terrorists residing within the United States."

At this point the petty details don't matter...
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Feb 17, 2007 5:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... because there are SO DAMNED MANY! What the author misses - and a lot of commenters - is that if there is the SLIGHTEST POSSIBILITY that it was a false flag op, and so much evidence points to that, NO honest investigation could ignore it, then the 9-11 Commission clearly WASN'T an honest investigation, and this can't be called a "conspiracy theory" - it's an open secret protected by the highest levels of our own government, who were therefore clearly involved. We should have brought every possible investigative resource we possess to bear, and instead the Secrecy Administration had a whitewash, token investigation and tried to tell us that fine, now we know it was bin Laden and al Qaeda, so let's go after the entire Middle East like we've wanted all along (handy, that) - except for our buddies the Saudis, who just happen to be the most likely suspects for outside accomplices.

Welcome to the beginning of the Holy Amerikan Corporate Empire, folks. Conspiracy theory my ass, there IS no other reasonable conclusion, and the government's actions only confirm it. In a free country with a free press this would have triggered massive recalls or even an armed revolution. Ipso facto...

Ian

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.4)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State

"A lawyer speaking for (FBI Special Agent) Wright after 9/11 will blame Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division Michael Chertoff for refusing to take Wright's concerns seriously before 9/11." Chertoff will later be appointed to become head of the Orwellian-named Department of Homeland Security.

"Larry Klayman, one of two lawyers now representing [FBI Agent] Wright, later says he calls the Justice Department a few days after 9/11 and asks that Wright be allowed to present his issues to Attorney General John Ashcroft. Klayman claims he receives a reply from Michael Chertoff, then head of the Criminal division, who refuses to meet with Wright and says, "We are tired of conspiracy theories."

FBI Agent Wright says at his press conference: "Corruption is knowing when something is not being done, knowing when the American people are being left unprotected and when you make a decision not to do something to protect the American people... And you effectively allow 9/11 to occur. That is the ultimate form of government corruption-dereliction of duty. That's subject in the military to prosecution, to court martial.... Frankly, if not treason."

24. FBI Agent Harry Samit, who before 9/11 sent 70 communications to supervisors warning them of Moussauoi's plan to hijack a commercial jet and crash it -- to no avail -- has said, "...(I)f you're not going to advance this the FISA route, or if you don't believe we have enough for a FISA, I shudder to think-and that's all I got out. And [Supervisory Special Agent Mike Maltbie] cut me off and said, 'You will not question the unit chief [David Frasca] and you will not question me. We've been through a lot. We know what's going on. You will not question us.'"

25. On July 10, 2001 FBI Agents in Phoenix AZ issued a memo to FBIHQ requesting that headquarters investigate flight schools across the U.S. to look for middle eastern filight students connected to international terrorist organizations. Nothing was done, and the information was not shared.

26. "The [FBI Inspector General] report attributes the inaction and inattention to the lack of resources committed to anti-terrorist activities in the summer of 2001. For instance, there was only a single research analyst assigned to the FBI's Bin Laden Unit in 2001, and she was transferred to another unit in July 2001."

27. "Although the FBI's counterterrorism budget tripled during the mid-1990s, its counterterrorism spending stayed fairly constant between fiscal years 1998 and 2001" ..."Then-acting FBI Director Thomas Pickard said he appealed to Ashcroft for more money for counterterrorism but on Sept 10, 2001, one day before the attacks on New York and Washington that killed nearly 3,000 people, Ashcroft rejected the appeal."

28. "At issue is a July 5, 2001, meeting between Ashcroft and acting FBI Director Tom Pickard."

"'Mr. Ashcroft told you that he did not want to hear about this anymore,' Democratic commission member Richard Ben-Veniste asked on April 13. 'Is that correct?'"

"'That is correct,' Pickard replied."

..."(A)nother senior FBI official tells NBC News he vividly recalls Pickard returning from the meeting that day furious that Ashcroft had cut short the terrorism briefing. Several sources familiar with the investigation say Garcia confirmed to the commission that Ashcroft did indeed dismiss Pickard's warnings about al-Qaida."

don't be naive
Posted by: abkendall on Feb 17, 2007 5:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people can be paid off..this was an inside job. and larry silvertsien ordered building 7 to be pulled!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0scE7bQWdk
setting explosives for imploding a building nomrally requires several weeks,months but he did it in a few hours. and he only admitted it 2 yrs after the 9/11 report...btw: neil bush was in chrage of security for the twin towers. OPEN you eyes your mind will follow...

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.5)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State

29. FBI Translator Sibel Edmonds has become the most gagged whistleblower in the country's history. In a letter to 9/11 Commissioner Thomas Kean, she said, ""If Counterintelligence receives information that contains money laundering, illegal arms sale, and illegal drug activities, directly linked to terrorist activities; and if that information involves certain nations, certain semi-legit organizations, and ties to certain lucrative or political relations in this country, then, that information is not shared with Counterterrorism, regardless of the possible severe consequences. In certain cases, frustrated FBI agents cited 'direct pressure by the State Department,' and in other cases 'sensitive diplomatic relations' is cited. ...Your hearings did not include questions regarding these unspoken and unwritten policies and practices. Despite your full awareness and understanding of certain criminal conduct that connects to certain terrorist related activities, committed by certain US officials and high-level government employees, you have not proposed criminal investigations into this conduct, although under the laws of this country you are required to do so."

Another FBI translator, who had been "shielding" the targets of FBI investigations, told Sibel Edmonds: ""Why are you doing this, Sibel? Why don't you just drop it? You know there could be serious consequences. Why put your family in Turkey in danger over this?" Sibel Edmonds' sister was reportedly sought by Turkish police shortly after this incident.

30. The FBI's top Al Qaeda investigator, John O'Neill, "resigned in July of 2001 in protest over the obstruction of terrorist investigations."

31. Two of the alleged hijackers lived openly in San Diego with an FBI informant for over a year: "The FBI inspector general's report reveals for the first time that the CIA not only failed to inform the FBI about [Al] Mihdhar, but that CIA officials intervened to suppress a memorandum drafted by an FBI agent detailed to the CIA-run Counter-Terrorism Center (CTC), who wanted to notify the FBI about the suspected terrorist with a US visa."

"One FBI official familiar with the case will later complain, "[The CIA] purposely hid [Almihdhar] from the FBI, purposely refused to tell the bureau. ...And that's why September 11 happened. ...They have blood on their hands." [Bamford, 2004, pp. 224, A Pretext for War: 9/11, Iraq, and the Abuse of America's Intelligence Agencies]

32. The 9/11 Commission, at the orchestration of Bush administration member and "Executive Director" Phillip Zelikow, wrote: "To date, the US government has not been able to determine the origin of the money used for the 9/11 attacks. ...Ultimately the question of the origin of the funds is of little practical significance."

33. The Times of India reported that Indian Intelligence had traced the wire transfers of over $100,000 from British born terrorist and reported MI6 and ISI asset Omar Saeed Sheikh in the UAE to Mohamed Atta in Florida, on the orders of the head of Pakistani intelligence Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad. This was reportedly confirmed by the FBI. The Pakistani ISI chief Ahmad resigned immediately, but he has never been sought by US authorities for funding and participating in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

34. ISI chief Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad was in Washington DC the week prior to 9/11, meeting with CIA Director George Tenet and other high ranking US officials including Tenet's replacement at CIA Porter Goss.

35. During the ISI chief's stay in Washington, Osama bin Laden was reportedly admitted to the Pakistani military hospital in Rawalpindi on September 10, 2001 by CBS News.

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.6)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State


36. Osama bin Laden was also reportedly admitted to a US MILITARY HOSPITAL in Dubai, UAE, in July of 2001 for kidney dialysis treatment. There bin Laden is said to have met with the CIA station chief, Larry Mitchell.

37. Senator Bob Graham, head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said: "I was surprised at the evidence that there were foreign governments [Plural!] involved in facilitating the activities of at least some of the terrorists in the United States." ..."I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government and that we have been derelict in our duty to track that down, make the further case, or find the evidence that would indicate that that is not true."

38. Senator Bob Graham also said: "High officials in [the Saudi Arabian] government, who I assume were not just rogue officials acting on their own, made substantial contributions to the support and wellbeing of two of these terrorists and facilitated their ability to plan, practise and then execute the tragedy of September 11." These investigations remain blocked, classified, covered-up and unresolved to this day by the Bush administration's clear Obstruction of Justice.

39. Senator and 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned, saying: "This is the most serious independent investigation since the Warren Commission. And after watching History Channel shows on the Warren Commission last night, the Warren Commission blew it. I'm not going to be part of that. I'm not going to be part of looking at information only partially. I'm not going to be part of just coming to quick conclusions. I'm not going to be part of political pressure to do this or not do that. I'm not going to be part of that. This is serious."

40. At least 7 of the alleged "hijackers" were reported to be still alive. Neither the FBI nor the 9/11 Commission corrected the identities, and the government has treated the issue of who exactly attacked America on September 11th as relatively unimportant. The flight manifests released by the airlines did not contain any of the names of the hijackers (who supposedly bought tickets just like everybody else), and there are discrepancies in the number of persons reported to be onboard the airliners. This also has not been explained by officials, at all.

41. The Dulles Airport security camera video released as evidence of hijackers has no time or date stamp, nor any other coded information, which suggests that it may not be authentic.

42. The aircraft "black boxes" from the World Trade Center site were admittedly recovered by NYC Fireman Nicholas DeMassi. The FBI, NTSB and the 9/11 Commission all deny they were ever recovered at all.

43. Congress shoveled $15 Billion of taxpayer money to the airlines immediately after 9/11 as one of the first responses to the attacks.

44. The autopsy report from the Pentagon crash site contains no mention of any of the hijackers.

45. Up to 200 Israeli agents were arrested and detained in relation to September 11th. This includes five Mossad agents who were celebrating the World Trade Center job with "cries of joy and mockery." The Justice Department (sic) released all of the Israelis, and the entire matter was made "classified."

46. "According to several Weehawken neighbors of the [Israeli MOSSAD front operation] Urban Moving Systems warehouse, the FBI, upon searching the warehouse, discovered fertilizer, other chemicals for making explosives, pipes, caps, and traces of anthrax. After anthrax was discovered, investigators wearing hazardous material suits went through the warehouse."

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.7)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State


47. "On the night of the Sept. 11 attacks, the White House Medical Office dispensed [the anthrax drug] Cipro to staff accompanying Vice President Dick Cheney as he was secreted off to the safety of Camp David..." The public was not warned about anthrax or alerted about Cipro for another six weeks, when anthrax-laden letters were sent through the mail to top Democratic congressmen and to others.

48. "Palestinians" were accused of committing the 9/11 attacks by Israeli MOSSAD operatives. One of the arrested MOSSAD agents told the police, "We are Israelis, we are not your problem. Your problems are our problem. Palestinians are the problem." A phone call to the "Jersey City Police Department ...claimed 'Palestinians' in Arab clothes were seen celebrating the attacks." Was this MOSSAD referring to their own covert agents? At 9:43am on 9/11, "Abu Dhabi television reports it received a call from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, claiming responsibility for crashing two planes into the WTC. However leading officials later deny the claim."

49. Israeli instant messaging firm Odigo received warnings of the World Trade Center attacks 2 hours before they occurred.

50. Zim American / Israeli Shipping broke its lease in the World Trade Center and evacuated one week before the attacks. The company is 49% owned by the Israeli government.

51. Although the Israeli government sent MOSSAD officers to "warn" the U.S. about imminent terror attacks in August 2001: "'They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement,' said a senior Israeli security official." Mixing Osama bin Laden together with his enemy Saddam Hussein has been a ridiculous propaganda exercise, and exposed as such.

52. Fire has never, before or after 9/11, caused a steel-framed building to completely collapse. Three gigantic steel-framed skyscrapers were alleged to have collapsed from the effects of fire, including the 47 story building 7 which was not hit by a plane. The Twin Towers and building 7 displayed numerous characteristics of controlled demolition including free fall speed, collapsing into footprints, pulverization of all the concrete, and the sounds and appearances of explosive charges, as reported by many eyewitnesses. Needless to say, this has not been investigated officially, because officials refuse to admit the possibility existed at all.

53. "Fire Engineering [Magazine] has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure. Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members- described by one close source as a "tourist trip"-no one's checking the evidence for anything."

54. "'The decision to rapidly recycle the steel columns, beams and trusses from the WTC in the days immediately after 9/11 means definitive answers may never be known.'[NY Times] The next week, Fire Engineering magazine said: 'We are literally treating the steel removed from the site like garbage, not like crucial fire scene evidence ...The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.'" (Griffin)

55. Ben Fountain, who worked in the South Tower, told People Magazine, "Over the past few weeks we'd been evacuated a number of times, which is unusual. I think they had an inkling something was going on."

No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.8)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State


56. On Thursday, September 6, 2001 bomb-sniffing dogs were removed and the security threat level at the World Trade Center was downgraded.

57. Scott Forbes who worked in the South Tower described a "power down" on the weekend before 9/11, which was corroborated by WTC janitor William Rodriquez in his RICO lawsuit. The power down knocked out communications, computer systems, and security cameras. Numerous workmen were reported, and the sounds of heavy construction, and a pervasive grey dust was found on the 97th floor by Forbes.

58. William Rodriguez also reported bombs in the basement levels and on various floors. After describing a series of explosions, Rodriguez heard that floor 65 had completely collapsed (nowhere near the plane impact zone). Rodriguez also claims to have heard construction on floor 34 affter the plane impacts, a floor that wasn't in use.

59. President Bush's brother Marvin Bush had been a director for Securacom (now Stratasec) that was in charge of security for the WTC, United Airlines and Dulles Airport (where Flight 77 originated). An Israeli security firm, ICTS International had security responsibilities at Boston Logan airport and other airports involved in the September 11th attacks.

60. On September 10, 2001 Willie Brown, the mayor of San Francisco, received a warning not to fly. He credited who he called "my security people at the airport." No FAA warnings had been issued however "in recent days."

61. "On Sept. 10, NEWSWEEK has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns."

62. "The author Salman Rushdie believes that US authorities knew of an imminent terrorist strike when they banned him from taking internal flights in Canada and the US only a week before the attacks. On September 3 the Federal Aviation Authority made an emergency ruling to prevent Mr Rushdie from flying unless airlines complied with strict and costly security measures."

63. "The Federal Aviation Administration said Friday it provided 15 warnings to airlines regarding possible terrorist attacks -- including al Qaeda hijackings -- in the months leading up to September 11. ...The FAA mentioned Osama bin Laden or al Qaeda in alerts the agency sent to domestic airlines." At this same time, July 2001, the FAA inexplicably terminated a firearms certification program for commercial airline pilots, which had made it legal for pilots to be armed since 1961.

64. A military data mining operation called Able Danger created a presentation chart in 2000 that allegedly included four future 9/11 hijackers. Their recommendation to send the data to the FBI was thwarted by military lawyers and by higher ranking officers. Yellow stickers were placed over the photographs of Mohamed Atta and the others. Although this information was brought directly to several of the 9-11 Commissioners, including Phillip Zelikow, it was never mentioned in their final report.

65. Purported "lead hijacker" Mohamed Atta was already known to US intelligence when he was living in Germany. "He is 'reportedly observed buying large quantities of chemicals in Frankfurt, apparently for the production of explosives [and/or] for biological warfare.' ...'The US agents reported to have trailed Atta are said to have failed to inform the German authorities about their investigation,' even as the Germans are investigating many of his associates."

» Very well done, Mr. Doraemi!! Posted by: LeftWright
No George Monbiot, These Are The Facts of September 11th 2001 (pt.9)
Posted by: johndoraemi on Feb 17, 2007 5:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For full formatting and hyperlinks to source material, go to:
Crimes of the State


66. "Military records show that hijackers Saeed and Ahmed Alghamdi listed their address on driver licenses and car registrations as 10 Radford Blvd., a base roadway where residences for foreign-military flight trainees are located, according to Newsweek (9-15-2001) ...(A) now-mysteriously deceased, Pensacola naval flight instructor from the Royal Saudi Air Force had the same name [Alghamdi] and also lived and worked at the U.S. naval air base."

67. "U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in [the 9/11] terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s."

68. "Ali Mohamed was involved with most of the major al Qaeda attacks against U.S. interests: ...the 1993 WTC bombing, the African Embassy bombings in 1998 and, even though he was arrested in late 1998, [Peter] Lance proposes that he also helped train some of the 9/11 hijackers in hijacking techniques. Astoundingly, Mohamed participated in these operations while also being a U.S. citizen, being enlisted in the U.S. military, ...and being an FBI informant in California. Importantly, ...he also had ties to the CIA."

69. While "Loose Change" is attacked for getting some things incorrect, the film does correctly describe Operation Northwoods, which was approved by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1962. The military planners expressly said: "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington [DC]. ...Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping, and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. ...We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). ...At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases."

70. And, while Operation Northwoods was not implemented, another U.S. state-sponsored terror campaign called Operation Gladio did murder innocent civilians across Europe at the orchestration of the CIA (BBC Documentary on Operation Gladio).


If you would like to suggest additions or corrections to this article, please email your evidence to johndoraemi -- at -- yahoo.com.

Alternet, let's have a debate
Posted by: Mr Plutocrat on Feb 17, 2007 5:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet-

In the name of open debate and fairness, let's have a debate between George Monbiot, say Chip Berlet (a NSA funded psuedo-lefty who is also a 9/11 truth denier) or your friends from Popular Mechanics, which is owned by one of the corporations that probably ordered 9/11 in the first place and David Ray Griffin, the theological "high priest" you ridicule and Steven Jones, former physics professor from Brigham Young University.

Or better yet, get the people that actually were responsible for the NIST report that you taught and let's have them debate Griffin and Jones. I'd like to hear that one.

Post it to your site, let each side present video and photo evidence that we can all watch on the net and help the people decide.

Can you do us, the public that favor? You are journalists aren't you? Isn't it your responsiblitly to give each side a chance to present it's case?

If I don't see something within the next week, I will unsubscribe from what I will assume is the propaganda arm of the duopoly criminal network known as our government.

» RE: Alternet, let's have a debate Posted by: summerhill
eyes wide open
Posted by: abkendall on Feb 17, 2007 6:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
reasons to believe 9/11 was an inside job
• the failure of standing operating procedures (SOP) to intercept any of the flights:the official story as to these failures changed a few days after 9/11
•. the order to scramble jet fighters to intercept flights 11 & 175 went to otis air force base instead of the nearby base, mcguire.
•. the order to scramble jet fighters to protect washington went to langley 130 miles away not andrews air force base 10 mi away.
• given NORAD's timeline and the greater distance the pilots had to cover form otis and langely,fighter jets should have reached NY and DC in plenty time to prevent the attacks.
•. the fighter jets that were too late to intercept flights 11 & 175 were NOT ordered to continue on to DC even tho it was then known that flight 77 had been hijacked and was headed to DC.
• sec of transportation scott mineta's report stated stand down orders from cheney.
3 steel-framed high rise bldgs collapsed because of fire which has never happened before in the history of the world.
• firefighters on the scene reported explosions and evidence of demolition.
•. the 9/11 report left the collapse of wtc7 unanswered: 2 •. guiliani's statement that he knew in advance the twin towers were going to collapse.
• the quick removal of the steel from all 3 bldgs esp wtc 7 before it could be examined.
• photographic evidence that the hole created in the pentagon was much smaller than a hole created by a boeing 757 would be.
•. photographic evidence and eye witness reports that there were no remains of a large airliner in front of the crash site
•. any non-military plane not having a transporter sending out a 'friendly' signal would have been automatically shot down by the pentagon's battery of missiles.
•with the most highly sophisticated radar system able to track all flights over north american, a hijacked 757 flew undetected for 45 minutes.
• bush, after being told about the attack on the south tower, continued his photo op for almost 30 minutes and showed no signs of fear.
• the multiple denial of the bush regime that they had any warnings of the attack in spite of multiple reports from the CIA and foreign intelligence.
•. the FBI had specific advance knowledge of the attacks given its: a)confiscation of a film of the attack on the pentagon within 5 min b)the confiscation of student files from the fla flight schools within 8 hours c)the testimony of fbi agents that they knew the dates and targets of the NY attacks months in advance.
• the purchases of enormous amounts of put options on united airlines, american airlines and morgan stanley dean witter on 9/10
• bin laden was treated by US doctors and visited by CIA agents in dubai 2 mos later
•. the evidence that the bush team had already determined by july 2000 that it would attack afgjhanistan by mid october
• bin laden he and his al qeada forces were repeatedly allowed to escape: no borders were sealed
• the FBI, justice dept and air force refused to answer questions about the report that many of the alleged hijackers had received training in US flight schools.
• no DNA of any of the hijackers was found in any autopsy report; none of them are on any of the passenger lists.
• at least 7 of the alleged hijackers have proven they're still alive.
• while julie stirrs and sibel edmonds were punished there have no NO punishments for anyone who acted incompetently or obstructively in relation to 9/11--not the FAA, FBI,CIA,DIA,NSA,justice dept,white house, NORAD,pentagon of US military.
•. altho bush blamed the CIA, george tenet was awarded the medal of freedom.

Stonehinge Weighs-In
Posted by: stonehinge on Feb 17, 2007 6:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Up till now, I've just been swattin' flies and other annoying creatures making sure the vermin don't start thinking they've breached the moat. But you know, there is only so much that needs to be said about structural failure, demolition signatures, uber-technical flight paths and dancing Israelis to realize that we need to reach for a higher level of understanding regarding the events leading to 9-11. And this is especially so right now, for when we continue to see high-level disinformation pieces like this, it's time to launch the next broadside.

So, let's do it --

In my opinion, the most significant obstacle to acceptance of the truth about 9-11 is the mythology that surrounds Al Qaeda and the supposed Islamic Holy Wars. Zelikow gave us the Imperial Gameplan in 1998, long before he headed the bogus 9-11 Commission, when he described the psy-op methods he needed to create "public myths" using "searing events" which take on "transcendent importance" within all levels of public discourse.

In the Nov-Dec 1998 issue of Foreign Affairs he speculated that, if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade center had succeeded, "the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security, as did the Soviet bomb test in 1949. The US might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either future terrorist attacks or US counterattacks. Belatedly, Americans would judge their leaders negligent for not addressing terrorism more urgently."

And as everyone already knows, within hours after the demolition of the WTC, the blame was placed squarely upon OBL and Al Qaeda without offering even the slightest pretense of making an investigation. And ever since that day, hardly anyone in the US has ever seriously questioned such a ridiculously absurd idea, yet this "public myth" has driven every facet of the national discourse. Clearly, this Zelikow knew exactly what he was doing.

It is now time to break this myth because I believe it is the key to regaining some degree of sanity in the national discourse. If it can be broken, then the principle tool which empowers the Imperials will be destroyed. Fortunately, we already have what we need to do that task quickly and efficiently.

The following video was smeared by Peter Bergen and thereafter completely ignored by the US media. Very few people inside the US have seen it, yet it is probably the most important documentary of our time, for it supplies important pieces of the timeline which are deeply hidden. At the same time, it completely shatters the myth of Al Qaeda as an hierarchical terrorist threat on the world stage.

Please take a look at the following short excerpt from the BBC Documentary, The Power of Nightmares: Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist

The rest of the pieces can be found here.

» RE: Stonehinge Weighs-In Posted by: Yankee0451
silliness
Posted by: summerhill on Feb 17, 2007 6:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reference to the employee(s) mentioned was personal contact. The individual is now retired after a long career, and, curiously, not even a native US citizen. Of course, the individual was not happy to say yes and to have seen the difference between reality and MSM spin up close and personal. But, regardless, in the few photos of the Pentagon aftermath available, there is no plane. And, yes, for sure there are drones/small missiles etc that can be made to look like planes.

As far as what the Europeans think...I went to three European countries this past year and know people from different countries who come here regularly. I quizzed everyone I saw! Frankly, every last one i talked to figured it was most likely that our gov't was involved. However, their surprise at my questioning and concern was not over US Gov't complicity, but that Americans were in such a BROUHAHA and CONFUSION over it!

If you look around Europe...say at the ruins in Paris & other old structures, you can see that these folks have had a long history of oppression by their govts. They rather take it as an unfortunate byproduct of this little planet. They marvel at our lack of historical context. They are rather tongue in cheek about it. I'm not saying this is a good approach, but they are a bit wiser and more informed.

Friends in Moscow told us that Putin got on TV 3 weeks BEFORE 9/11 and told them that he was trying to call Bush to warn him of a serious attack and Bush wouldn't take his calls. Putin wanted to let the Russians know he is on top of things there and not to worry, that nothing like the upcoming events in USA could happen in Russia.

The thing the Europeans and people in other countries are surprised about is NOT THAT our Gov't did it, but that as a group, we have this idea that large Gov't has our best interests in mind. Paris and other historic cities quickly put that naive idea to rest. The Russian immigrants who live in the apt above my sister, who came here years ago to escape oppression, say it is worse here than when they left. Do you think the Europeans are in the dark? No, they are not. Americans are children on this planet in some ways.

Regarding using cell phones on an airplane, I have flown ~60 times since 9/11 and I have tried this with my own cell-phone-tower-based phone every single time. After about 5000-8000 ft, it just says "searching..." Why? well the towers are land-based. one would need a satellite phone is my guess. But it doesn't work. Try it! Simple.

On one of these flights, while I was in line to get on the plane, the hispanic woman standing in front of me, turned around to face me and asked if it was possible to use your cell phone on the plane. Being the skeptical citizen that I am, I wondered the motivation for her question, but dismissed the idea of asking and explained that after about a mile up, nope. you couldn't do it.

At the same time I was replying, a tall white man behind me answered her question as well with the same answer saying "possibly up to 10,000 feet".

Not content to settle for just my own experiences, when I was in an airport hotel in St. Louis, MO, alone for the evening, I went to the bar/grill in the hotel for dinner. Being a single female alone, i was approached by two men playing shuffleboard. Turns out they were US Air pilots there for the night. So, curious that I am, I asked them during their flirtations ... "Can one use a cell phone on a plane?" and they LAUGHED and said NO...like "stupid girl question".

Also, a year or two after 9/11, a Canadian company came out in the news saying they were working on or bringing to market a satellite solution that might allow people to use cell phones on planes.

There are phones built in that you can use on the plane, you can't use your flip-top verizon camera phone.

Ocam's Razor
Posted by: Hairog on Feb 17, 2007 6:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't think I have the spelling correct but you know what I mean.

Why not just rig the building and blow them up. Why would you complicate the deed with airplanes? Why not just say they snuck in during the night and rigged it up and set it off? Why doctor film footage of planes hitting the building? Just blow it up. Throw a few dead security guards around and say they took the building over and blew it up.

Why would you have to involve the Penagon building at all? Isn't blowing up the Twin Towers enough to get the conspirators all they wanted?

Why mess with flight 93 at all? Why have a plane plow into a field? How does that further their conspiracy goals?

» RE: Ocam's Razor Posted by: ravi
» no, you don't make sense. Posted by: 50566
» Made for TV Drama Posted by: rwa
» RE: Made for TV Drama Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Made for TV Drama Posted by: rwa
» RE: why hijackings?... Posted by: channing
Rhetoric and Reasoning
Posted by: ravi on Feb 17, 2007 6:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let us put ourselves in the year 1960. Before us stands someone who believes that behind all the events unfolding in the universe lies one or a few entities that control and determine these events. What are we to make of this person? Travel back another 13 years to 1947. Confronting us is another similar individual with equally strange beliefs. What kind of humans are these? What effect will they have? Surely they are conspiracists! People who will distract us (and the world) from the "real" issues: imperialism, racism, civil rights violations! If only these two people, let us call them Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi, with their magical beliefs (about "gods") did not exist! How much further could we have gone, we with our army of experts and the editors of Popular Mechanics, in advancing the fight against imperialism? In the achievement of basic civil rights for oppressed minorities? If I were to tell you that these two hypothetical individuals are not hypothetical at all, but real humans who lived in the 20th century, surely you would join Monbiot and me in organising a lynch mob to rid the world of such gibbering idiots with their magical beliefs?

As the cliche goes, "it's all over but the shouting", and Monbiot seeks to outshout everyone else with indignation and invective that would do a right-winger proud. And the analogy is apt, for the term of choice that Monbiot and his type employ, "conpiracy", would quite aptly suit the description of Monbiot and the rest of the left, by the right. One can imagine an equally snotty right-winger deriding the left's "conspiracy theories" about capitalism, global warming and so on.

This then is the burden of the true left (i.e., the left that is based upon principles of tolerance, respect, and other attributes that fall under the umbrella of "humanism"). We have to work past the shouting and condescension and certainty and arrogance, and the effect it has on our efforts, our goals, our motivation, and so on. And we have to work at the "real" issues: global warming, civil rights, inequality, and so on.

» RE: hetoric and Reasoning Posted by: summerhill
Bush tells truth
Posted by: kayschilling on Feb 17, 2007 6:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Loose Change is an introduction to the truth about 911. It's a place to start asking questions: Why did the Bush Admin fight the investigation?; Guiliani destroyed the evidence; FBI took the videos and have never shown them. 911 Commission didn't mention Bldg #7. I suppose you think JFK was killed by "lone assassin" Lee Harvey Oswald. Why is the left so Pro-Bush when it comes to 911?

» Sorry Posted by: rwa
THE REAL TRUTH
Posted by: Ruther on Feb 17, 2007 8:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hate to say it but, the real truth is, it doesn't matter. Bush and friends have proved they can do as they want, and nobody will stop them. We'll all just sit and write blogs all day bitching about them, nothing more. We could stop them ,but we lack the will. For 5 years Bush has done more to destroy this country, than any outside enemy has in our 200+ year history, and still we do nothing, not one general strike, not even some lone idiot assassination attempt, nothing. Things will continue to get worse and we still will do nothing. You might ask yourself why, because, this is no longer America land of the free, home of the brave, but America land of corporate slaves, and home of the cowards. People get the government they deserve.

Anti-War and Democracy Now on the High Fivers
Posted by: lessbread on Feb 17, 2007 8:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The High-Fivers: More proof the Israelis were shadowing the 9/11 hijackers

This is potentially one of the most important 9/11-related stories ever reported, and yet the number of serious investigative pieces done on it can hardly be counted on the fingers of one hand. Antiwar.com has been following this from the outset, and you can go here for a complete archive of my columns on the subject, plus mainstream media pieces.

Cheering Movers and Art Student Spies: Was Israel Tracking the Hijackers Before the 9/11 Attacks?

Freelance journalist Christopher Ketcham has just published a comprehensive piece on this story in the newsletter Counterpunch. The article highlights various interconnected stories: The five Israeli “movers” who witnesses say were cheering after the first plane struck the World Trade Center; the so-called Israeli art students who were living in concentrated areas where hijackers were living around the United States and how two of the hijackers ended up on the Watch List weeks before 9/11.

» #2 Posted by: rwa
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» #12 Posted by: rwa
9/11 Truth: The War on Terror is a Fraud
Posted by: rwa on Feb 17, 2007 8:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
blah-yes, another lame denial, w/new lies, for "credibility"?!
Posted by: 50566 on Feb 17, 2007 8:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, again, unfounded statements are thrown in as "facts", the usual excuses are made, and again, a Popular Mechanics article written by a Bush crony is still the greatest source of proof. Ok sure, getting angry at us makes YOU distracted from the Admin's (smaller) crimes. So George, I guess YOU DO have a reason to feel frustrated.

alternet takes us nowhere, but i suppose it's not surprising
Posted by: 50566 on Feb 17, 2007 8:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
alternet also was at the forefront of defending Diebold voting machines also. I think that shows which way the wind has been blowing for a long time. It's simply not polite to go too far with telling the truth I guess.

But now it's not so popular to defend Diebold is it, Alternet.

I do feel a bit sorry for you Aternet, for you must be quite confused about all this, and also with the infiltration of the "righters" from the "other side".

Smart Article, Foolish People
Posted by: EPunch on Feb 17, 2007 9:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Monboit is mostly right, of course, as the brighter Alternet readers know. He saves the best for last: That the creators of Loose Change are Bush agents. [Or the agents of those behind the Bush puppet.

Certainly, Loose Change has been spectacularly successful in defining the post 9/11 conspiratorial debate, focusing it onto whether a plane hit the Pentagon and whether the towers were brought down by demolition. In so doing, debate about, and investigation into who executed the attacks and who knew about them beforehand (for example, Israel or elements within the US government) have been relegated not to the back seat, but to the trunk.

In so doing, Loose Change has succeeded in making all those who work to uncover the TRUTH about 9/11 appear to be idiots by association. You "Loose Change" followers are SUCKERS. We have you to thank for the fact that, 5 years on, America still hasn't the foggiest idea of what really happened and why on that dark day.

Basic Legal Evidence Missing (or non-existant)
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Feb 17, 2007 9:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What’s desperately needed is concrete evidence -- and evidence that implicates particular agents. Surely there most have been numerous people who knew something about the plot [to blow up the WTC as alleged], and who played some role. To make a case, instead of wild speculation and hearsay, serious investigation ought to be undertaken by concerned individuals. Hitherto this has not been done. In fact, known evidence would seem to correlate to the official story and vindicate the Government of direct responsibility. The government is of course still responsible for failing to prevent the attack, as it should have done. Considering the massive investment in security and intelligence this failure is a huge embarrassment for the government (an raises unwelcome questions). It is hardly surprising they don’t want a serious investigation that would doubtless illuminate their ineptitude further.

It is also interesting, and worth noting, that the attention 9/11 receives is quite disproportionate to the scale of the atrocity (frighteningly it has taken on virtual religious significance). Vastly more people have died in Iraq (hundreds of thousands) and everyone knows beyond all doubt who’s responsible for that. It seems to me our energies would be better invested bringing Bush (inter alia) to trial for this atrocity and figuring out how to prevent such atrocities in future.

PS: many seem to need an elementary lesson in physics -- Of course a tall building is going to collapse in its footprint; its center of gravity is located directly above the footprint. It doesn't matter whether the structural integrity is first weakened with explosives, or, (say) an airliner crashing into it -- gravity's what brings it down in either case.

New Left Props Up Neocons
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Feb 17, 2007 10:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by deliberately leading people away from debate on fundamental issues and ridiculing those who have the nerve to bring them up. Identity politics are provided as a venue for the left-leaning public to blow off steam without really threatening the status quo. Argue all you want over the position of the deck chairs, meanwhile the ship continues to head directly for the iceberg.

Unfortunately, Alternet publishes far too many articles supporting the global neocon agenda, such as unrestrained illegal immigration (which brings American wages down) and coverups such as 9/11 which are used by the military industrial complex as an excuse for endless war.

Alternet is such a disappointment
Posted by: exposeleftgatekeepers on Feb 17, 2007 10:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet is really exposing itself by re-publishing these ad hominem attack pieces on those seeking an independent investigation into the events of 9/11.

You would think that these foundation-funded left gatekeepers would take note of the fact that 90% of the comments are in opposition to Monbiot's pathetic artictle (as they are on every other dubious 9/11 Truth attack piece published here), and switch up their gatekeeping strategy.

Any free-thinking, reasonable person who looks at the facts available can see that the attacks of 9/11 are an obvious false flag event, designed by criminal elements of the United States governement (and possibly other governments).

What is truly amazing is how much Alternet and other publications like The Progressive, Z Magazine, Counterpunch, and The Nation have misjudged the intelligence of their readers. How insulting that they think we would buy this crap! Anyone who has ever taking a debate class in high school can see through the logical fallacies in these totally transparent attempts at intellectual bullying.

Thanks Alternet, for showing us your true colors! Keep up the gatekeeping and you will lose the trust of the few readers who still think you are dedicated to independent journalism and the search for truth.

And a final note to all those phoney left-wing publications who attempt to divert us from the toxic core issues like the Federal Reserve, and the crimes of The International Intelligence Community: your days are numbered - you can't stop the truth.

COVER-UP @ the CORPORATE CRIME STATE
Posted by: Hal on Feb 18, 2007 1:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gee Alternet, seems G. Monbiot’s disinfo act has gone over like a lead balloon. (that’s a well-greased Monbiot with insider daddy as Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party and Chairman of the National Convention)

Ah, but insulting the odd end of the so-called 911 “Truth Movement” to prop up a naked status quo corporate crime wave is not exactly cricket. More like craven rubbish.

Nothing holds up the government’s conspiracy fantasy (far from good enough to be a theory) but its own preposterous “necon” claims. And an oligarch run MSM is so arrantly cooked it is incapable of so much as a pretense at investigation into the official sham.

This 911 criminal whitewash is merely the latest in a long string of blood money government cover-ups going back from before Operation Mockingbird, MK-ULTRA, Operation Northwoods, Gladio, the Tonkin Gulf betrayal for Vietnam, Pearl Harbor, Iran-Contra, Gulf War, Iraq War, etc, etc.

We’ll browse over the fact that evil genius Osama Bin Forgotten was CIA asset a.k.a. Tim Osman whose CIA Al-Qaeda operation was financed lock, stock and barrel by the House of Saud.

Needless to say, the benefit of doubt does not go to the government.

I’ll repeat: it is not the burden of rank and file Americans with limited resources to provide ironclad proof of a state sponsored “inside job” at 911. Not with a proven cover-up in plain sight.

Such a test claim is naked drivel without fallback position. As such, it is gullible or corrupted or both. From Israeli Spies to whistleblowers gagged by the kleptocracy at DC – we have a proven conspiracy.

One state sponsored 911 cover-up is a FACT and national crime that goes uninvestigated. There are vast ramifications to this scale of corruption including bogus democracy. Lest we forget, scientists and political leaders have weighed in.

911 whitewash as the lynchpin of phony “war on terror” for state rigged corporate crime is a costly public reality extorted for private greed. It is a blood soaked parasite that is with us every day.

Bottom line: the event at 911 remains a clear and present cover-up for “war on terror” foisted on no more than lies. The connection does not take a brain trust to make.

Ongoing 911 cover-up is an anathema to human life.

» God love ya, Hal ! Posted by: LeftWright
COVER-UP @ the CORPORATE CRIME STATE (2)
Posted by: Hal on Feb 18, 2007 1:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“I saw papers that show the U.S. knew al-Qaeda would attack cities with airplanes… I gave [the 9-ll Commision] details of specific investigation files, the specific dates, specific target information, specific managers in charge of the investigation. This is not hearsay. These are things that are documented.”
MRS. SIBEL EDMONDS (former top-level FBI translator who gave closed session testimony to the 9-11 Commission. Edmonds asserts that Bush/Cheney National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice’s claim that there was no such information was “an outrageous lie.” The Bush/Cheney administration silenced Edmonds with a court gag order citing the rarely used “state secrets privilege”. 4/2/04)

“It was a good thing for Israel…We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”
SIVAN KURZBERG (Israeli spy caught celebrating with his team on the New Jersey shore as jetliners struck the WTC twin towers. Kurzberg and his team declared knowledge of the “terrorist” act when such information was not known. Kurzberg and his crew were arrested by the FBI and released to Israel due to intense pressure from Israel and Washington 9/11/2001

“The bottom line is by 1995 there were no more weapons in Iraq… And furthermore, the CIA knew this, the British intelligence knew this, Israeli intelligence knew this, German intelligence, the whole world knew this.”
SCOTT RITTER (ex-UNSCOM inspector stating policy reality of all major intelligence services that knew Saddam had no WMD before invasion and conquest of Iraq. In an interview with Seymour Hersh 10/19/05)

"For bureaucratic reasons we settled on WMD [to invade Iraq] because it was the one reason everyone could agree on".
PAUL WOLFOWITZ (“neo-con” US Deputy Defense Secretary and chief architect of the Iraq War in an interview for Vanity Fair 2004)

AlterNet = Part of the Cheney Bush Media Network
Posted by: ErHoff on Feb 18, 2007 1:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact that popular Mechanics and AlterNet are part of Cheney Bush Crime Syndicate's Media Network just goes to show us that our freedom is not just at risk. America as a whole is a glorification of ignorance and bullies, fed by propaganda.

America is not ready to do anything yet to change, after all the Declaration of Independence makes clear that "…that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed".

Do the math...
Posted by: Carl Street on Feb 18, 2007 2:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To prove the 9-11 story is false you do NOT need airplanes, complex navigation, cell phones, video evidence, etc. ALL you really need is a little knowlede about steel.

BTU's of heat in a pound of jet fuel = 18,700
Fuel capacity of a 767-223 in gallons = 24,000
Weight of in pounds of 1 gallon of jet fuel = 6.4
Maximum total weight in pounds of the fuel = 153,600
The total BTU's of heat in that fuel = 2,872,320
BTU's needed to melt 1 ton of steel = 18,000,000 *
The MAXIMUM tons of steel that melted = 160
Actual tonnage the 9-11 story claims was melted = 185,101

* The example generously assumes NO fuel was used by the planes flying to their target; That Jet fuel can concentrate heat like blast furnace fuel (it can't); and that an open air smoldering fire can achieve the heat ranges of a scientifically designed and carefully controlled blast furnace. If you believe THAT, I have some Brooklyn Bridge stock available at a good price... :)

» RE: Do the math... Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: Do the math... Posted by: Carl Street
» RE: Do the math... Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: Do the math... Posted by: channing
"must have involved tens of thousands of people."
Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 18, 2007 3:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think I could have pulled it off with about 50 people: a dozen neocons in the bush administration, two dozen workers (demolition men), the mayor, the head of security for the WTC, some nutcase suicide bombers, and few other people here and there.

Why Can't Monbiot Defend His Piece?
Posted by: bumiclown on Feb 18, 2007 4:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a shame to see otherwise sane people buy into the gov't's conspiracy theory. There goes another one, setting up the straw men and knocking them down. Sure, some of the theories are kooky, but here monbiot sweeps them all together and bad mouth's them, that's what is irritating. We're ALL idiots for thinking the gov't might be lying? What's wrong with this picture? Doesn't he want to know the truth? Or is it too scary?

» RE: Why Can't Monbiot Defend His Piece? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Criminal negligence, not conspiracy
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Feb 18, 2007 6:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bush administration was criminally negligent in ignoring the Aug. 6 CIA memo (which predicted an imminent al-Qaeda attack) and ignoring the Hart-Rudman report (which predicted highjacked airplane attacks) and going after Iraq.

If it was a conspiracy, wouldn't they have come up with something better for W to do than his vacant 7 minute stare with schoolkids, and skulking in bunkers in Nebraska? If you're saying he was completely out of the loop, wouldn't they still have come up with some better spin?

» Ignorance Posted by: johndoraemi
» Insanity Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Crimes of the State Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Julie428
Posted by: Julie428 on Feb 18, 2007 6:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article seems like good sense to me. I'm no fan of the Bush Administration and favor impeachment, criminal prosecution and imprisonment for both Bush and Cheney, but I don't think they, or the government, had anything to do with 9/11 except pre and post-event incompetence. Afterward, naturally, they used it for all political purposes. citing it like a holy mantra. They're guilty of many things but the idea that there was this vast government conspiracy in the attack is like saying the moon landing was faked. There's plenty to blame Bush/Cheney for in the real world. Let's get busy and make them accountable not go off on wild goose chases.

» RE: Julie428 Posted by: JMorse
AlterNet =Controlled Left Gatekeeper.
Posted by: sonex on Feb 18, 2007 6:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At some point AlterNet is going to have to give a little or we will start to understand that it's part of this 911 charade. If you want to keep control over people you need to have a little credibility. The cat is out of the bag, time to go to plan B, you do have a plan B ...

Its about time the word "Filmaker" was used more than once...
Posted by: kanekoa64 on Feb 18, 2007 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was wondering if anyone was going to notice that we are talking about a FILM here. A mighty popular one to boot. Even Mike Moore would tell you to open your eyes on this one. I have yet to hear one of the film parrots say once they may have extended thier trust into the hands of a propaganda film machine. Bush and crew have no answers yet, and they wont until consensus is gathered on how to use what they have to thier advantage, most likely beating a Bible, waving the Stars and Stripes, calling anyone who doesn't support the war "Anti Troops", or "Unpatriotic". and humbly offering up someones ass as a sacrifice. They are the bumblers they appear to be, and they are being used.
If there is a conspiracy, they would be the "Frosting" on the Shit Cake, with far more evil and intelligent agents at work in the moist, flaky center. And don't try using any of that "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled off was convincing people he didn't exist" crap either. Bush IS a moron/puppet. He just thinks he's King. The picture is WAY larger than it seems, and simpler at the same time. It's just much wider spread than we ever thought possible. These filmakers, regardless of any of the content being true or not, are "Profiting" from this by design. The Bushites are waiting for consensus for the next disinformation attack, and we are HANDING IT TO THEM by closing off dialogue, taking sides on outdated and unquestioned information, and the old "who's the real left winger" competition on full boil, fueled by our need for answers we may never get as long as those who machinized it are alive.The puppet/pawn stack is too high and deep. In the mean time, we must be wary of anything you watch in the media. Left or Right. Dem or Repub. Douche commercial or Sports Event. Ruper Murdcok is a heavy handed twit compared with the more current generation of media pilots we have waiting in the wings or practicing thier craft on us as we speak. The game could be as deep as the conspiracy we are discussing, or simple greed.
This game is so slick they can spoon feed you your own excrement and call it sorbet. They can go right down to the pixel and change your Grandma into Fidel Castro for a day. They can add subliminal audio and video cues and messages (And THEY DO EVERYDAY...) and make you crave Snickers even though you hate chocolate. Or maybe some simple war time rhetoric. Every website, (including this one) TV station, "News" source etc. on both sides if this argument and ones like it, have long ago infiltrated the other for the reasons of disinforming and keeping on eye on "The Other". We can only trust that we can try to reach other by being as honest as we can, question every scrap we find and try to weed out these factions whop would use us by long and arduous debate with a lot more give and take than we seem able to pull off at this time. Hell, I fell for it a couple of times already during this line of discussion, and I am humbled by my own weakness. I will try to contain my negative emotions and turn them around before typing in future in hope that I can be a better force for finding and examining the truth, however small my contributtion might be.
I suggest we all try it. All the time, from now on. It's the only way we'll spot what we're looking for. This is raw stuff we're covering, with bad data interwoven on a daily basis by the manipulations of people who hold no good will for this or any culture, and will do nothing save work towards thier own profit or self advancement. With purpose as single minded as any terrorist. And all this is taking place during the overture to a possible "revolution" that will make the 60's look tame. This will take some patience that I pray I am capable of, and I thank you who tried to do so, for yours.
Aloha to you all

Whatever we choose to believe the uncomfortable facts are in the public domain forever
Posted by: mrarkangel on Feb 18, 2007 8:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Initially I was shocked by the 9/11 attack and didn't question what I was being told.
Then I read

'The War on Freedom: How and Why America was Attacked, September 11, 2001 '

by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed and his later volume

'The War On Truth: 9/11, Disinformation And The Anatomy Of Terrorism '

Pretty much everything I came across after that was icing on the cake. A knee-jerk response that those in power don't have our interests at heart at all and would sacrifice any and all of us to pursue their own narrow interests is all well and good (and may or may not be true) but my only concern was to try to arrive at the truth about what happened that day. With so many interested parties trying to tell me what to think (and what not to think) I needed information more than anything; the context I could provide for myself. These books seem scholarly (and a little dry to be honest, especially the first one) and as objective as one can be under the politically charged circumstances surrounding the attack. They are so crammed full of information as to demand concentration and partial re-reading but I felt after studying them justified and, dare I say it, qualified to have an informed opinion about that terrible day.

I'm not connected with the author in any way but I am very grateful for the work he put into producing those two volumes. It's interesting that those I've seen or read who suggest that there was nothing untoward about the American government's response to the tragedy (and no hidden agenda) rarely (if ever) refer to either or these books. Surprise, surprise! Whether or not the 'Loose Change' video is 'true' or disinformation doesn't change the fact that an awful lot of strange things happened on 9/11; enough to make an awful lot of people very, very suspicious.

If the two towers did indeed collapse for the reasons officially given,
Posted by: Earthling on Feb 18, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
not a single airplane or jet could possibly fly, the engines would melt or warp, as would the wings, from the heat in the kerosene-burning engines. Simple as that.

Conspiracy Theories
Posted by: chalet on Feb 18, 2007 9:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are Inevitable, given that our very expensive and supposedly formidable military-industrial-governmental complex was to have protected us from just such an attack as 9/11.

It didn't.

An investigation was strongly resisted. The biggest airline
disaster in history was hastily carted away without even a cursory investigation let alone the exhaustive investigations visited on even the tiniest air crashes. The building debris was quickly shipped away to Asia--no investigation there. No rationale is given for the act other than the devil made them do it, they hate us, etc., and now we must quickly invade a country (Iraq) wholly irrelevant to the tragedy at once!

What is one to think?

Such logic-resistant actions , bizarre under any circumstances, cry out for a credible explanation.

There has been none.

Until there is--and acceptable to the overwhelming majority--
this sorry episode will remain without resolution.

Cissie
Posted by: Cissie on Feb 18, 2007 10:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those who want to believe such conspiracy theories simply choose to leave the world as it is, and leave people like Bush and Blair in power. It's believing that governments who carry out wars and impoverish their peoples are all-powerful and that we can never do anything about changing our world. George is right, but he leaves out that crucial point. Bush and Blair are of course lying about their so-called war on terror, but that doesn't mean that people didn't fly into the twin towers!

» RE: Cissie Posted by: Earthling
» RE: Cissie Posted by: JMorse
Thank you Alternet! Short Changing 9/11: Popular Documentary Takes Us Nowhere
Posted by: Aimee on Feb 18, 2007 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you Alternet! You have opened the discussion about the 9-11 issue and the comments are very good. We need to keep the light shining on the 9-11 WTC topic. Keep the comments coming.

Cheers,
Aimee
DataOptions.com

mr. duke.
Posted by: merged55 on Feb 18, 2007 12:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
monibot, (miniidiot)..all the evidence that it was an inside job comes from the MSN...if you are defending the government give proof that an "airplane" hit the pentagon...and if you say that "hundreds of witnesses" ALL those idiots give different accounts about what they saw....you are too a FUCKING IDIOT.....thank you very much.

A View of What Is
Posted by: Timberbee on Feb 18, 2007 12:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Regardless of these Theories, and discussions on them;

- Osama Bin Laden yet remains at large

- Afghanistan was a pitiful effort, at best

- Billions, and Billions of Dollars have been sucked from our economy

- The Military is undergoing an extreme crisis, and is in the process of being gutted / collapsing

- An enormous mercenary force is being employeed in Iraq
- We are preparing for War against Iran

- The media has played a very proactive role in furthering the Administrations agenda

9/11 was used as a pretext for;
- The Invasion of Iraq
- Extraordinary Renditions
- The Userption of the Constitution by the White House
+Extended Powers of the Executive
+ Secret, and far reaching programs which Spy upon, and restrict the freedoms, and civil liberties of America
+ Extraordinary Renditions
+ The subversion of Democracy in Europe, and around the Globe including a denial of the sovereign rights of other nations when those rights intrude


The Republican party has also seen Extreme, and widespread corruption, as a Direct result of the actions of the White House. Corruption has not only been encouraged, it has been entrenched. When a party faces major political loses, and faces the loss of both houses, the presidancy, as well as massive sweeps on the local level, including state houses and offices, and fails to respond to the will of the people...

Something is clearly wrong, and, the question is...

Why?

Saudi Arabia has played a major role in both 9/11 as well as funding and supplying, and fueling the insurgency in Iraq, particularly those aspects which have led to further destabilization as well as continued, and sustained attacks against our Troops.

Why single Iran out (Which supports those who we call our allies in Iraq), and neglect Saudi Arabia (Which supports those we label as "Terrorists", Bathists, and foreign fighters).

Why Attack Iraq, forcing a link to 9/11 that never existed, and SHEILDING Saudi Arabia, whose once beloved Son is said to have Master Minded the attack upon us, and whose citizens both funded, and carried it out?

That the war was, in the end, about Oil, Power, and Fear, seems inescapable.


If we are to look for theories, one would start there.

» RE: A View of What Is Posted by: ErHoff
If the people running Alternet were honest
Posted by: exposeleftgatekeepers on Feb 18, 2007 12:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the people running Alternet were honest they would at least publish the response the Guardian ran to Monbiot's phoney hit-piece "Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory" by Tim Sparke, executive producer of Loose Change Final Cut. Here is an excerpt,

Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory

George Monbiot's explicit attack on the film Loose Change (A 9/11 conspiracy virus is sweeping the world ..., February 6) has no basis in fact. While we accept that there are flaws in the current version of the film, we stand by its overarching theme that the official "conspiracy" theory of 9/11, constructed in the hours, days, weeks and months after 9/11, is false.

In uncritically endorsing the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report, Monbiot neglects to say that the collapse mechanism for the entire World Trade Centre building was never documented by NIST - it didn't see it as its job. Additionally, in accepting that the towers collapsed at virtually free-fall speed ("the weight of the collapsing top storeys generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest"), Monbiot shows no awareness that this explanation violates the law of conservation of momentum.

Monbiot also appears oblivious to NIST's failure to explain that, although fire could not have melted any steel, there were pools of molten metal under the rubble, and these pools remained molten for weeks after the collapse; that dozens of people, including firefighters, news reporters and fleeing victims, all reported massive explosions; the clear video evidence of explosions taking place; that virtually all the concrete was pulverised into tiny particles; the apparent disintegration of the central steel core; and the destruction of all the evidence from America's biggest crime scene, which was covertly transported to Asian and African shores before any forensic examination could take place.

Monbiot then endorses the idea that Building 7 collapsed because "thousands of gallons of diesel [were poured] on to the fire" - oblivious to the fact that, even if an enormous fire could have caused a symmetrical collapse (which required all 81 steel columns to miraculously fail simultaneously), there was, as photographs and eyewitnesses reveal, no enormous fire. Monbiot also appears unaware that several engineers and demolition experts, after studying videos, have declared that this collapse can only have been caused by explosives....

Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory

Pay attention to your readers, AlterNet
Posted by: elmarco on Feb 18, 2007 1:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With all due respect to Mr. Monbiot, I suggest AlterNet start paying attention to the fact that a lot of its readers do have serious doubts about the official explanations of 9/11, and that our doubts do not stand or fall on "Loose Change" alone. My friends and I, for example, are seeking the truth, and we believe there is probable cause to doubt that the official version is the truth. Doubters or seekers about 9/11 are not necessarily nut cases or conspiracy theorists.

mr. mineta testified....
Posted by: merged55 on Feb 18, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people from alternet won't let me put a very importat link!!!
a call....sensoring!!!

» RE: mr. mineta testified.... Posted by: mcooley
Covering-up their incompetency = lies and more lies...
Posted by: Cathyc on Feb 18, 2007 2:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...which is what ALL greedy tyrants do. The Bush Admin don't care about anyone except themselves. They are not fit to lead anyone: not their own children, not a country. The sooner the American people wake up to that fact the better!

I'd like to believe the sinister plot but ....
Posted by: bkhomaan on Feb 18, 2007 5:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the Bush administration was after a casus belli, why 4 planes? Why not just have the 2 planes (remotely controlled and with already burnt passengers) crash into the twin towers and (as it is argued) not bring the buildings down. Wouldn't the American public or indeed the whole world not watch and be reminded every day of the horrors that took place as months if not years of repairs needed for the buildings were carried out? Wouldn't that be a better reminder to the public of the so called "cause" and the "need" for the subsequent military retaliations?

Why would there be a need to shoot down a plane in middle of nowhere or fire a missile at the Pentagon?

» And why New York at all, for that matter? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Blue Pilgrim
Posted by: bluepilgrim on Feb 18, 2007 7:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course I've read some things about this, but I'm afraid my conclusions are not particularly exciting, although I think they are sound.

First, absolutely it was a conspiracy! It sure wasn't an accident. So forget about this stuff about "there was no conspiracy": the question is who was in on it? Was it only foreign terrorists (and which nations or groups); did it involve anyone in the US government or power structures -- and if so to waht extent (active, passive, or coverup)? The answer is that we don't know for sure because there was never an adequate investigation nor good collection of verifiable facts.

Exactly what happened? Again, we don't know for sure -- there was never a thorough investigation (at least not a public one).

But the most important conclusion I've reached is that it doesn't matter now. Maybe at some time in the future we CAN get a good investigation, even considering all the evidence that has been destroyed, lost, or worn down by time -- and that would be good for purposes of history and "closure", but right now we have a massive body of evidence of corruption, war crimes, obstruction of justice, perversion or ignoring the Consititution, stolen elections, and downright treason -- and we are STILL trying to sort that out and set things to right. There are STILL people who argue that Bush is a good president and the Iraq war was legal and just, or want to excuse the genocide and other enormities.

If we can't even handle these things yet, then what chance is there that the various 9/11 allegations would be accepted even with rock solid evidence? Consider how many believed -- still believe -- that Iraq had WMDs, connections with Al Qaeda, and responsibility for 9/11 -- all things which evidence overwhelmingly refutes.

My position, then, is that for those who want to keep investigating and theorizing, let them -- maybe someday it will be of use. For now however, for most of us, the priority must be to fix the things which are obviously wrong and not be distracted by a currently unsolvable enigma contaminated by misinformation, disinformation, obstruction, and "9/11 fatigue".

I just don't know about 9/11, and I can live with that uncertainty -- but I do know we have a country or three to save and a world war to prevent, and that's where I'm putting my time and energy.

BBC Conspiracy Files 911 edition update:
Posted by: Bulldog on Feb 18, 2007 7:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyway, tonight the BBC 'Conspiracy files' 911 edition was shown and looks to me as if it was a hotchpotch of the alleged two versions that were prepared, then being chopped together. First 20 minutes, I'd say quite evocative of the 911-truth movement whilst the rest of the hour did seem to come down with the heavy snide tones present in previous programmes in the series.
Despite initial optimism on the WTC7 subject, the programme fails to mention Silverstein's famous PBS TV showing of "they decided to pull it, and we watched it come down"!

Scholars for 9/11 truth are identified and Jim Fetzer is interviewed briefly but portrayed in typical 'Conspiracy Files' fashion as being a bit cranky whilst none of the astounding facts that this group have dug up about 'Ground-Zero' were even once mentioned!

Alex Jones was also compared with the evangelical religious archetype and the programme managed to finish on the emotionally loaded and totally foreseeable comments:

"The 911 conspiracy file is certain to remain open for a very long time to come, however distressful and painful for the families of those that died that day" unquote.
No mention of the 'Jersey girls' contribution to the 911 Commission Report and I think typical of the condescendingly predictable manner in which 'Auntie Beeb' talks down to the children, who are the public.
Disgraceful, and I'd guess that we're all quite sick of it.

My Conclusions about the 911 'Conspiracy Files'. It proves that the BBC with its £2bn+ annual income from licence fee payers serves well as a stoolpigeon for the Military Industrial Complex most efficiently.
The rogue elements in Military Intelligence must think they've got a real bargain here.

Overall **
Quality: 5
Content: 4
Value for licence fee: 2.

Support Juntawatch.org

Sick of the unnecessary infighting
Posted by: TRC on Feb 18, 2007 7:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm disappointed to read so many emotive editorials posing as rational analysis. Monbiot's piece is just that.
When he writes:
"The film's greatest flaw is this: the men who made it are still alive. If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago?"
he looses credibility. The authors of loose change never claimed the US government is all-knowing. In fact they suggest that a self inflicted attack could be carried out with relatively few people involved. Why would these kids need to be assassinated when they have so many people trying to discredit them?
Look, I don't know what happen on 911 but I think even Monbiot agrees that the 911 commission left a great deal to be desired. Instead of this infighting I'd like to see the left organize to simply call for a special prosecutor to investigate 911 thoroughly.
Personally, I think the evidence for an active self-inflicted attack will be lacking but I think almost certainly there will be evidence of criminal incompetence and cover-up on behalf of this administration.
Let's find out with a real investigation.

Webster Tarpley:
Posted by: rwa on Feb 18, 2007 8:28 PM   
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THE SHAME OF THE LEFT GATEKEEPERS

The present crisis would not be possible if the overall lesson of September 11, 2001 had been learned by a significant minority of the US population, and if that minority had an institution through which to act. Here the responsibility of the Democratic Party is very grave, since the Democrats have continued to portray themselves as the True Believers of the 9/11 Myth, the most faithful devotees of blaming 9/11 on al Qaeda, Bin Laden, the laptop, the cave, Atta, and the rest. Especially along the left extremity of the Democratic Party, we find a line of foundation-funded opinion leaders and commentators whom we can only define as left gatekeepers. These gatekeepers have stubbornly denied, mocked, vilified, censored, blacked out and embargoed any suggestion that 9/11 was a provocation by a US military-intelligence network, which it so manifestly was. So much so that if we ask why the US population would still believe the Bush administration on 9/11 and the imminent terror attacks of 2005 when they would not believe Bush about any other issue the answer must be that the left gatekeepers are responsible. If the American people do not finally move out of their present credulous gullibility and realize that the large-scale international terrorism of our time is overwhelmingly state sponsored, false flag synthetic terrorism, they will continue to be an easy mark for the unscrupulous factions who do not hesitate to employ terror as a means to power.

Bad day at the office, George?
Posted by: gandhi on Feb 18, 2007 8:55 PM   
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Monbiot is just championing a certain form of politically credible "responsible" activism over other, more radical "popular" forms which arguably have even more positive effects.

He should give credit where it is due, and the creators of "Loose Change" certainly deserve credit for at least bringing the stark failings of the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission to light.

Personally, I harbour the same doubts as Monbiot about 9/11 conspiracies, but I still want to know more about those Israeli agents dancing on New York rooftops, about certain influential persons who were allegedly pre-warned of the incident, and so forth.

I want to know more about a whole heap of things, in fact. I want to know about Michael Ledeen and the Italian connection to WMD allegations. I want to know what Dick Cheney's Energy Task Force discussed. I want to know what Bush Snr was doing on the night before they killed Kennedy and I want to know about the Bush family's connections to the guy who tried to kill Reagan (I really do). And that's just for starters.

When a government totally lacks credibility, nothing is off the table. If you can't believe the people who control the world, who can you believe? If people are desperate for answers to very, very important questions, whose fault is that?

One thing is for sure: George Monbiot hasn't got all the answers. And he never sends me money, either!

» gandhi - Posted by: LeftWright
I dont think they attak the heart....
Posted by: Michiganman on Feb 18, 2007 9:07 PM   
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of the kuntry but new yorc is the buttcrac.

Minds Half Open, or Half Close?
Posted by: Myra99 on Feb 18, 2007 9:57 PM   
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Post proofs that brotherhood is not so wild a dream as those who profit by postponing it pretend.
~~Norman Corwin


S O M E O F T H E A B O V E N E W S

======================================================

Left Gatekeepers Against 9/11 Truth
MINDS HALF OPEN, OR HALF CLOSED?

The massive gates guarding the public secret of Neocon complicity in the atrocities of 9/11 creaked open a few inches this month when THE NATION magazine was forced to actually publish a few of the torrent of letters berating them for their complicity in helping to cover up the truth about those atrocities. (See below: "Is The Nation Going Sane?")

Now ALTERNET has seen fit to let discretion be the better part of their invalorous participation in the superbly disciplined conspiracy of deadly silence. Article and discussion:
AlterNet Revisits 9-11 via Article by Sander Hicks
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5932

WHAT NEXT? Are we witnessing the beginnings of a race to the top by the remaining progressive hold-outs against 9/11 truth? Will PROGRESSIVE MAGAZINE go progressive and start worrying less about watching their backs and their grants and their bank accounts, and more about printing the truth? Will Air America's Ed Schultz and The Young Turks grow up and stop covering up? Will that archeypical bully-boy Alexander Cockburn stop beating up on 9/11 truth in his CounterPunch?

Will Al Franken take finally to heart what he said (twice, on his February 2 show) is his most treasured advice from Molly Ivins: "DON'T EVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU JUST TELLING THE TRUTH IS NOT ENOUGH."

From Molly's lips to God's ears.

» OK- From Molly and Al Posted by: fanny666
Info and Disinfo
Posted by: tempest on Feb 19, 2007 4:27 AM   
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Loose Change presents a lot of information. Some of it is meaningful and important, some is overstated and unsubstantiated. If Alternet (and Democracy Now and Counterpunch and Harpers and The Nation and Mother Jones.....) spent time looking at the history of 9/11 research and focused on the credible websites, they would know this.

There are two 9/11 movements. One to get at the truth and a second to obfuscate the truth. On rare occasions when a national media outlet does a story on 9/11 Truth, they usually contact the falsifiers (2nd movement) who invariably spout off some theory that is highly suspect and/or ridiculous--like the "no planes" theory or "space weapon" theory.

In fact, if Alternet had followed the story, they would understand by now that the real story is in the obvious cover-up. The second group, which includes a few credentialed academics with backgrounds in engineering and science, is so unbelievable and idiotic, that their attempts to supplant clear research with absurd theories is only plausible if they are viewed as part of the cover-up. No scientist would present and defend theories that are obviously indefensible.

The 1st group of researchers led by physicist Steven Jones, engineer Gordon Ross, and Kevin Ryan broke away from the 2nd (Dr Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Morgan Reynolds, and others) and has published the best scientific evidence to date: www.journalof911studies.com. This peer-reviewed journal is COMPLETELY IGNORED by Alternet, Progressive, and Counterpunch columnists. Why?

Rothschild's attack piece in The Progressive parroted Cockburn's in Counterpunch's, and both were deemed worthy of publication in other lefty magazines like this one and The Nation. Neither of these "journalists" understands that NIST's explanation for the WTC collapses is highly unlikely, and for Building 7, patently absurd. They chose to ignore the extensive scientific evidence in the Journal of 9/11 Studies (www.journalof911studies.com) which convinced NIST to investigate the possibility that Building 7 was dropped by explosives. Rothschild says NIST "is still studying the collapse of Building 7". Care to tell your readers why they are still studying it, Matthew? Care to mention that the "pancake collapse" theory presented by NIST and FEMA (and sold to the public on NOVA) was proven impossible? The NIST report has been changed several times and is still not completed.

The derisiveness of these attack pieces is inexplicable. Why would any columnist wantonly attack and slander a segment of their readership--including engineers and scientists--without any understanding of their main arguments? Cockburn's article cites Manuel Garcia's model stating he "devastates conspiracists' theories with patient explanations as to why their schemas flout scientific laws and the observed facts of the disasters of that day". Garcia's model has been proven conclusively to be mathematically impossible. The proof was sent to Counterpunch and Garcia (who acknowledged the errors...). The proof and emails were sent around, Alternet. Care to see them?

Folks, dust off your brains and watch the videos of Building 7 collapsing. Watch the four corners folding simultaneously inward and dropping in a near free fall. How can anyone conclude this was caused by a fire in the building? IT IS RIDICULOUS. The people defending this insulting explanation are lying through their teeth.

Info and Disinfo
Posted by: tempest on Feb 19, 2007 4:43 AM   
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Loose Change presents a lot of information. Some of it is meaningful and important, some is overstated and unsubstantiated. If Alternet (and Democracy Now and Counterpunch and Harpers and The Nation and Mother Jones.....) spent time looking at the history of 9/11 research and focused on the credible websites, they would know this.

There are two 9/11 movements. One to get at the truth and a second to obfuscate the truth. On rare occasions when a national media outlet does a story on 9/11 Truth, they usually contact the falsifiers (2nd movement) who invariably spout off some theory that is highly suspect and/or ridiculous--like the "no planes" theory or "space weapon" theory.

In fact, if Alternet had followed the story, they would understand by now that the real story is in the obvious cover-up. The second group, which includes a few credentialed academics with backgrounds in engineering and science, is so unbelievable and idiotic, that their attempts to supplant clear research with absurd theories is only plausible if they are viewed as part of the cover-up. No scientist would present and defend theories that are obviously indefensible.

The 1st group of researchers led by physicist Steven Jones, engineer Gordon Ross, and Kevin Ryan broke away from the 2nd (Dr Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Morgan Reynolds, and others) and has published the best scientific evidence to date: www.journalof911studies.com. This peer-reviewed journal is COMPLETELY IGNORED by Alternet, Progressive, and Counterpunch columnists. Why?

Rothschild's attack piece in The Progressive parroted Cockburn's in Counterpunch's, and both were deemed worthy of publication in other lefty magazines like this one and The Nation. Neither of these "journalists" understands that NIST's explanation for the WTC collapses is highly unlikely, and for Building 7, patently absurd. They chose to ignore the extensive scientific evidence in the Journal of 9/11 Studies (www.journalof911studies.com) which convinced NIST to investigate the possibility that Building 7 was dropped by explosives. Rothschild says NIST "is still studying the collapse of Building 7". Care to tell your readers why they are still studying it, Matthew? Care to mention that the "pancake collapse" theory presented by NIST and FEMA (and sold to the public on NOVA) was proven impossible? The NIST report has been changed several times and is still not completed.

The derisiveness of these attack pieces is inexplicable. Why would any columnist wantonly attack and slander a segment of their readership--including engineers and scientists--without any understanding of their main arguments? Cockburn's article cites Manuel Garcia's model stating he "devastates conspiracists' theories with patient explanations as to why their schemas flout scientific laws and the observed facts of the disasters of that day". Garcia's model has been proven conclusively to be mathematically impossible. The proof was sent to Counterpunch and Garcia (who acknowledged the errors...). The proof and emails were sent around, Alternet. Care to see them?

Folks, dust off your brains and watch the videos of Building 7 collapsing. Watch the four corners folding simultaneously inward and dropping in a near free fall. How can anyone conclude this was caused by a fire in the building? IT IS RIDICULOUS. The people defending this insulting explanation are lying through their teeth.

» Well said, tempest! Posted by: LeftWright
The whole story laid out in minutes
Posted by: tempest on Feb 19, 2007 5:02 AM   
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khjyuumxohU

BBC hit piece did not work
Posted by: Bobsays on Feb 19, 2007 5:09 AM   
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I am listening to people calling in to radio programmes in the UK. And most, despite the BBC's hit piece on 9/11 truth, still don't buy the government story. There is still too much unexplained. Even the programme had to admit there is a conspiracy, only they say it was after 9/11 when they tried to cover everything up. But it is worse than that. Much worse.

OK, so where's the evidence?
Posted by: allblue on Feb 19, 2007 5:43 AM   
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From my point of view, this whole debate is no longer a systematic approach to discover what truly happened that day, it's more an exercise in understanding human psychology, and very interesting it is too. However, here are some points to consider, and if they have already appeared in this thread I apologise, as I have not read right the way through, fearing a great deal of circularity in the arguments.

I spent many years as an investigator, and therefore know both the process of investigation, and the rules of evidence, so I shall apply them here. Before a theory even needs to be 'debunked', first it needs to be established, and you do that with evidence. I have looked hard for the last few years trying to find such evidence, and have yet to discover any credible evidence which supports the official version of events. Without such evidence, the '19 Al-Qaida' theory remains just that, a theory, a conspiracy theory in fact.

There are many places where the evidence could exist, but for the purposes of brevity I shall concentrate on the two most compelling. Firstly, you have to place the suspects at the scene of the crime. This should not be difficult. They parked in an airport car park, walked to the terminal building, walked around a bit. checked in through the check-in gate, spent time in the departure lounge, then passed through the boarding gate. All (or at least nearly all) of this would have been captured on the airport's security CCTV system. We have never seen any of that footage, nor indeed did the 9-11 commission ask to see any of it. This would be a very compelling piece of evidence, not entirely conclusive admittedly, unless the CCTV covered their movements after the boarding gate, but it would at least put the suspects very clearly in the frame. Why hasn't this evidence ever been released? Why did the 9-11 commission not seek to establish this fundamental element of the allegations against the 19 men?

The second piece of evidence would be definitive however. From take-off to final destination, the four aircraft would have been on the FAA radar. These readings are, as a matter of course, recorded and kept. They would show the planes taking off, the point at which the transponders were switched off, the point at which they deviated from their flight path, right the way through to their final destination. These tapes have never been released either, nor did the 9-11 commission ask to see them. The planes' flight path IS THE CASE surely! This is what the planes did, so we are told, and as with the airport CCTV, the evidence would have been available immediately to the authorities. Why have we not seen them, and why hasn't anybody in authority asked to see them?

So before you even need to start dipping into the soup of information, misinformation and disinformation in which this event happily bubbles away, you do need to ask yourself those questions, because a case without evidence is just a theory, a theory about a conspiracy, and we all know what they are called.

If you are one of the posters above who so passionately defend the official version, the reply button below is your opportunity to show me something that I have missed here.

PS Incidentally, for those who are looking for a pattern in the wider context, the entire London Underground system is under constant CCTV surveillance, so showing the exact movements of the four alleged 7/7 bombers would be key evidence, yet we have never seen any of that footage either.

Confront the Hard Evidence, Not Easy Targets, Mr. Monbiot
Posted by: empower on Feb 19, 2007 7:38 AM   
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Sorry AlterNet, the arguments in "Loose Change", despite Monbiot's derisive criticism, are more founded and convincing than anything Mr. Monbiot has to offer. Who has jumped to the wrong conclusions?

Sure, "Loose Change" can be seen as a pop documentary, as if that were a fault. The glaring omissions of the 9/11 Official Report are going to unavoidably mobilize all types of people. Does Mr. Monbiot want to discredit a whole movement on the weaknesses of one presentation? That is weak, absurd and irresponsible journalism. Deeper and much more serious presentations / books on the same theme are readily available, e.g. the free DVD Confronting the Evidence: A Call to Reopen the 9/11 Investigation. Let us see you try to refute those facts.

Your claim: "wings disintegrated" and airliner "parts were recovered" at the Pentagon? Study the available footage, which proves there is not one shred of photographic evidence of a passenger plane hitting the pentagon.

Your claim: "Twin Towers' collapse inevitable" by fire? Historical evidence shows that not a single steel frame building has ever collapsed by fire - don't even mention at free-fall velocity.

Finally, Monbiot delivers what he believes to be the coup-de-grace, discrediting the “Loose Change” crew as conspiracy junkies. 9/11 conspiracy-theorist bashing obfusticates and clouds the truth in general, creating a one-sided picture of who conspiracy theorists are. Remember, ironically, the Bush admin. were the first to advance a conspiracy theory - "terrorism" - on evidence which seems to be largely unsubstantiated. Discussions on "who did it" can shift an investigation’s focus from an orderly pursuit of facts to hysterical witch-hunt. The rush to point the finger at al-Queda, with the resulting burial of highly significant 9/11 evidence under gov't. and media disinformation on the one hand and the character assassination of all critics on the other, illustrates this.

The truth of 9/11 rests in its evidence, not in its conspiracy theories. In that sense, "Loose Change", despite its faults, strives harder towards that truth than your article. LC’s evidence simply speaks more honestly, more plainly and convincingly than anything Monbiot’s disservice can conjure up. The avalanche of informed, negative reader feedback confirms that.

» Sure, why not? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Too Bad the Downing Street Memos Never Aroused This Much Attention
Posted by: Jim Shaw on Feb 19, 2007 9:05 AM   
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It amazes me that people spend so much time and energy on preposterous 9/11 c