Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Register to Vote: Rock the Vote, powered by Working Assets Wireless
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

There Was No 'Smart' Way to Invade Iraq

By Sam Rosenfeld and Matthew Yglesias, The American Prospect. Posted February 17, 2007.


'Liberal' hawks are stuck on blaming Bush's incompetent handling of the Iraq war instead of arguing that we should never have invaded in the first place.
Advertisement

This article is reprinted from the American Prospect.

The Incompetence Dodge

Victory, as John F. Kennedy observed, has a thousand fathers, while defeat is an orphan. Abandoning the orphan that is the Iraq War has clearly been a protracted, painful process for the liberal hawks, those intellectuals and pundits so celebrated back in 2003 for their courage in coming forward to smash liberal expectations and support the war. Long criticized by fellow liberals for failing, amid much hand-wringing and navel-gazing, to express clear regret over their original support for the war, these hawks have started to become a bit more vocal about their second thoughts.

The nature of their regret, however, is noteworthy -- and has tremendous significance for the debate over U.S. foreign policy after Iraq. Most liberal hawks are willing to admit only that they made a mistake in trusting the president and his team to administer the invasion and occupation competently. An August 29 New York Observer article featured a litany of semi-chastened hawks articulating this sentiment. "Someone wrote that you knew who the surgeon would be, so you knew what the operation would look like," said George Packer, New Yorker writer and author of the new book The Assassin's Gate. "And there's some truth to that. I was not as aware as I should have been of just how mendacious and incompetent the surgeon was going to be." The New Republic's Leon Wieseltier added, "I think that it is impossible, even for someone who supported the war, or especially for someone who did, not to feel very bitter about the way it has been conducted and the way it has been explained."

The corollary of these complaints is that the invasion and occupation could have been successful had they been planned and administered by different people. This position may have its own internal logical coherence, but in the real world, it's wrong. Though defending the competence of the Bush administration is a fool's endeavor, administrative bungling is simply not the root source of America's failure in Iraq. The alternative scenarios liberal hawks retrospectively envision for a successful administration of the war reflect blithe assumptions -- about the capabilities of the U.S. military and the prospects for nation building in polities wracked by civil conflict -- that would be shattered by a few minutes of Googling.

The incompetence critique is, in short, a dodge -- a way for liberal hawks to acknowledge the obviously grim reality of the war without rethinking any of the premises that led them to support it in the first place. In part, the dodge helps protect its exponents from personal embarrassment. But it also serves a more important, and dangerous, function: Liberal hawks see themselves as defenders of the legitimacy of humanitarian intervention -- such as the Clinton-era military campaigns in Haiti and the Balkans -- and as advocates for the role of idealism and values in foreign policy. The dodgers believe that to reject the idea of the Iraq War is, necessarily, to embrace either isolationism or, even worse in their worldview, realism -- the notion, introduced to America by Hans Morgenthau and epitomized (not for the better) by the statecraft of Henry Kissinger, that U.S. foreign policy should concern itself exclusively with the national interest and exclude consideration of human rights and liberal values. Liberal hawk John Lloyd of the Financial Times has gone so far as to equate attacks on his support for the war with doing damage to "the idea, and ideal, of freedom itself."

It sounds alluring. But it's backward: An honest reckoning with this war's failure does not threaten the future of liberal interventionism. Instead, it is liberal interventionism's only hope. By erecting a false dichotomy between support for the current bad war and a Kissingerian amoralism, the dodgers run the risk of merely driving ever-larger numbers of liberals into the realist camp. Left-of-center opinion neither will nor should follow a group of people who continue to insist that the march to Baghdad was, in principle, the height of moral policy thinking. If interventionism is to be saved, it must first be saved from the interventionists.

* * *

The swath of center-left politicians and thinkers who supported the Iraq intervention -- and who are now in a position to find the incompetence dodge a seductive escape route from honest reckoning -- is wide, indeed. It includes leading Democratic politicians -- Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, John Kerry -- and former Clinton administration foreign-policy hands, as well as such varied writers and intellectuals as Packer, author Paul Berman, Harvard professor and New York Times Magazine contributor Michael Ignatieff, op-ed columnists Thomas L. Friedman and Richard Cohen, then-columnist and now New York Times Executive Editor Bill Keller, and a gaggle of writers associated with The New Republic. The bungled-invasion line is hardly the exclusive provenance of such war supporters. Indeed, some of the leading exponents of the narrative, such as former Coalition Provisional Authority adviser Larry Diamond and James Fallows of The Atlantic Monthly, opposed the war from the beginning, and, of course, the incompetence line is politically appealing for liberals. But the dodge's real significance pertains to the future of liberal interventionism after Iraq.


Digg!

See more stories tagged with: iraq, withdrawal, political journalism

Sam Rosenfeld and Matthew Yglesias are Prospect staff writers.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from AlterNet! Sign up now »


Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
Liberal Hawks is an Oxy Moron
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 17, 2007 3:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This very well written piece is another reminder (as if we need any more) why Hillary Clinton should never be elected to the presidency. She still insists that what will no doubt be remembered as the worst vote of her career was not a mistake. If General Grant, himself, - aided by George Marshall and Dwight D. Eisenhower - had planned this war, it would have failed. It was doomed to fail! If the Democrats are stupid enough to nominate Hillary Clinton next year, they'll deserve everything that happens to them.

Think about it for a minute: The United States of America, in total contradiction of international law and opinion, decides it is going to invade a hostile, predominantly Muslim country. Folks, I'm a High School drop-out and the morning after the invasion, I told everybody I came into contact with, "Our country committed suicide last night". I got it. Why not one member of this disgusting administration was able to "get it" will remain as one of the mysteries of the age.

Well, guess what? The mystery has been solved. It may sound simplistic to some but it is the cold, hard truth: These people are fucking idiots. Period.

Have a lovely day, kiddies!

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Liberal Hawks is an Oxy Moron sickofskeaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» Why flap your lips in the wind? Posted by: danielgeery
» RE: Liberal Hawks is an Oxy Moron Posted by: Conservasaurus
"Humanitarian intervention has both uses and limits...
Posted by: gazooks on Feb 17, 2007 4:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Recognizing these limits in no way entails an embrace of an amoral foreign-policy realism. This false dichotomy is perhaps the most pernicious idea to emerge from the Iraq War. Liberalism has always been an idealistic doctrine, and should continue to be. But if high ideals become detached from basic questions of feasibility, they serve nothing but their exponents' self-regard -"

There's the big rub.

For those, like myself, that felt that the US had a humanitarian responsibility to unseat the neo-Stalinist dictator that had been propped, supplied and used by us as a surrogate for our broad strategic purposes relating to Iran/Persian Gulf, the question of feasibility was largely framed in the ample intelligence and perspective of historians like Bernard Lewis and Joseph Braude.

In the context of a moral obligation to rid the region of the cancerous evil that we had stooped to support out of political cowardice by previous Administrations, an intervention was more than justified. Naively now, believing the reports then by previously credible officials such as Secretary Powell of the existence of WMD in the hands of Saddam and his history of using them against the Kurds reinforced that justification. Saddam’s opportunistic mentality and his verbose hostility to the US, his historic interference with UN inspections also added credibility to the WMD ploy. The Administration fully exploited the emotional state of the post 9/11 attacks, and provided intelligence linking Saddam to al-Qaeda. What responsibility does the US have to preventing further genocide by a monster largely of our own creation? “Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, that coercive humanitarian intervention, while useful and important, "can be justified only in the face of ongoing or imminent genocide, or comparable mass slaughter or loss of life." This criteria had been met in the minds of many of us at the time, true of many Congressional liberals as well.


In time of National emergency, what no one outside of the Administration would suppose, was the diabolical deception and political incompetence that ensued. No one could anticipate that the President, Vice President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, CIA Director and many of their subordinates would concoct a fantasy when a reasonable, moral justification for intervention existed.

No one would think, that all collective wisdom, historic context, and billions of dollars worth of the best intelligence in the world would be utterly, needlessly disregarded. If anyone wants a comprehensive and objective assessment of what went wrong see: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/yeariniraq/view/

What we now must do without delay is essentially what Barak Obama proposes. A ordered withdrawal by the end of 2008. And notwithstanding a “time of war” consideration, we must demand from Congress Articles of Impeachment for Bush and Cheney for the criminal deception imposed on a trusting Nation, it’s soldiers and the world. It’s time for America to demand adherence to acceptable moral standards in conduct of Government, and for Congress to exercise it’s Constitutional authority to rectify an egregious violation.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» White Mans Burden... Posted by: rwa
» RE: White Mans Burden... Posted by: gazooks
» RE: White Mans Burden... Posted by: ignition
» RE: White Mans Burden... Posted by: gazooks
» Liberal Icons and War Posted by: rwa
Incompetance, hardly, sly as a Fox more like.
Posted by: itchyvet on Feb 17, 2007 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Incompetance, hardly, sly as a Fox more like. Duh :-(
When are Americans going to wake up and see the wood fer the trees ?
There's no incompetance in Iraq by Bush or any of his fellow War criminals, when is this going to sink into your thick skulls ?
How can you call these creeps incompetant when clearly, they have pulled the wool over all your eyes into believing their incompetance is the issue, when all along, what's happening is the PLANNED result ?
What excuse could they use to STAY in Iraq for ever, if they had done it YOUR WAY ?
That's the whole point folks, ding a ling, wake up to yourselves, the civil war was PLANNED, furthermore THEY MADE NO SECRET of their intentions read PANPAC it's there in BLACK AND WHITE, and folks, it was released long before Iraq was blown to the dark ages.
So spar us all the xrap of incompetance, you may find peace in yourselves with such crap, but at the end of the day, guess who's foolin who ?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Brilliant article
Posted by: Dee1276 on Feb 17, 2007 5:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rosenfeld and Yglesias have gotten to the heart of the matter. These are the kind of thinkers we need in congress and in the administration. Leaders, clarifiers, people with integrity and intelligence. But since there words of truth and wisdom will not fit on a car magnet or a 30 second TV blurb, I fear they will be lost in the din made by the dolts and deceivers we have chosen to represent us.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

While Baghdad Burns
Posted by: The Old Indian on Feb 17, 2007 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Iraq invasion, the elective war, the war that has had so many reasons for being and so little purpose to exist is a festering sore that will cripple us for a generation. The Iraq conversation has descended into an useless, endless discussion of strategic errors and mismanagement rather than an analysis of what it really is; a morally bankrupt decision to attack a country that posed no threat to America, resulting in the ultimate devastation of a land, its society and infrastructure on a scale that Saddam could never have achieved. What have we done to our brave military and the people of Iraq? What have we become in the eyes of the world?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: While Baghdad Burns Posted by: crazy carlos
WRONG! There was a smart way of toppling Saddam.
Posted by: DougScott on Feb 17, 2007 6:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the mother of all ironies, prior to 9/11, the neocon front organization, Project for a New American Century (PNAC), constructed the perfect plan for toppling Saddam Hussein.

Rather than invade Iraq, PNAC proposed bombing campaigns in the no-fly zones. intense psy warfare, sabotage, employing covert Kurdish commandos and inserting American special forces on the ground.

Instead, when PNAC founders Cheney, Libby, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Zalmay Khalilzad gained power, they scrapped their own plan in favor of none at all -- war on the fly.

Why? Collective room-temperature IQ, obviously.

Hugh E. Scott, Texas Aggie (Class of 1956). Vietnam veteran, ex-Air Force pilot, lifelong registered Republican, RABID neocon-hater, author of "George Dub-ya Bush. THE PHONY FIGHTER PILOT" and the creator/editor of the investigative website, www.King-George.biz.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» How stupidly Amerikkkan... Posted by: ignition
» RE: How stupidly Amerikkkan... Posted by: DougScott
» RE: How stupidly Amerikkkan... Posted by: DougScott
» RE: How stupidly Amerikkkan... Posted by: DougScott
» RE: How stupidly Amerikkkan... Posted by: DougScott
US "humanitarian" intervention, a sick joke
Posted by: DBachmozart on Feb 17, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The same ruling elite that wiped out millions of Native Americans/enslaved millions of Africans/stole the northern half of Mexico/repeatedly invaded South and Central American countries countenanced by the divinely inspired Monroe Doctrine/firebombed civilians in German and Japanese cities and nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki/overthrew governments around the world from Iran in 1953 and Guatemala in 1954 to Indonesia in 1965 and Chile in 1973/ that killed 3-4 million people in Southeast Asia and left behind poisons such as Agent Orange/that has financed, armed and trained death squads in Central America, Angola and Mozambique in the 1980s (and Iraq today) resulting in hundreds of thousands dead/that caused the deaths of over one million Iraqi civilians with a genocidal sanctions program and has destroyed the Iraqi nation -- THIS is who we should trust to intervene in a "humanitarian" manner?? Any honest reading of history clearly shows that this group of savages lacks one humanitarian bone in its collective body. They are motivated strictly by naked material interests. The purpose of modern day liberalism is to clothe that nakedness so as not to offend a decent populace who would never go along with its plans for brute force and Empire. Therein lies the difference between liberalism and the right wing in US foreign policy.There has not been one "humanitarian intervention" proposed by these latter day Woodrow Wilsons that is devoid of imperial interests, from WW 1's goal of replacing the British Empire, to the necessity of removing the Serbs' opposition to neoliberalism. The ruling class of the US has earned the complete mistrust of humanity which increasingly demands - keep your armies and CIAs and economic hitmen out!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Monarchy Posted by: moflard
» RE: Monarchy Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Monarchy Posted by: moflard
» That's what I see. Posted by: WhatNow?
THE WAY TO A GREAT PRESIDENCY (if it works)
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 17, 2007 6:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sept. 11 gave Bush his reason to go to war. Iraq was on his agenda before he got elected. At the beginning NO ONE thought it was a good idea. 9/11 provided drama and background. There were many other ways to get rid of Sadam Hussein. He Chose war.He then became a so called "Wartime President" with more power than any president we've ever had. He's been doing as he pleases ever since. Our everyday rights continue to disappear. Life ain't the same. Thanks, ANNA

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

A for Effort, D for Editing, F for Logic
Posted by: NoPCZone on Feb 17, 2007 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a long and rambling mess. Not the Bush Administration, that too, but this article. The guys obviously spent some time thinking about what they wanted to say and then put it all, and I mean all, down on paper. The problem is that it is the product of logic as flawed as anything stupid (very long list) uttered by Bush.

The issues of the advisability of the war conceptually and the methods employed are completely separate issues. The capabilities of the US Army at the time the invasion was being planned and the capabilities of an enhanced force are not the same. There was a very long time between 9-11 and the INvasion of Iraq, enough to have significantly increased the size of the Army and Marine Corps. The completely effed up DoD and State Department handling of the aftermath, occupation and ramp-up of civil governance does not so much condemn the concept of invading a dictator as it points out how incompetent the political appointees BushCo had at State and Defense really were.

At it's core the fiasco in SW Asia is the tale of incompetence of our government at every stage of National Security, one of it's most basic charges in the Constitution. 9-11 was a failure of our intelligence, border control, INS, and police agencies to do their jobs. The decision to go to war was a failure of our National Security apparatus, primarily elected and political appointees, as many career military and civilian experts advised otherwise and were marginalized or ignored. The planning was a failure of the Congress to provide a check on the incompetent disregard of Bush's national security team's wet dreams and disregard for law or facts. The execution of the war and occupation is what you would expect from such incompetence.

After the 2000 election the NeoCon pundits and Bush team were running their mouth about how the grown-ups would be in charge now. National Security was supposed to be their strength and long suit. We now know better. We also know that blaming Clinton for the smaller US Army will not fly as the post Cold War downsizing was designed and approved after the first Gulf War by then Defense Secretary Cheney and Chairman of the JCoS Powell. They signed off on it as a force capable of fighting 2 & 1/2 wars. We now know that to simply not be true.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

It's a good article and
Posted by: littlebozo on Feb 17, 2007 7:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I expect no less from either of these two. Pat Lang has a piece up at Financial Times and his blog Sic Semper Tyrannis - that is well worth the read. I've been thinking about it for three days now. It strongly addreses American exceptionaliam..

"What Iraq Tells Us About Ourselves"
Col.W Patrick Lang

The Bush administration, the Iraqi people, and Iranian meddling have all been blamed for the mess in Mesopotamia. But the American people themselves are the true root of the problem.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3734

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It's a good article and Posted by: littlebozo
dick
Posted by: rtmyth on Feb 17, 2007 8:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This war and the coming Iran/USA war are all favored by the power elite, but also by Israel and thus supported by the Admin and the Congress. The masses have no influence. Mills described it all in "The Power Elite" and "The Causes of World War Three" , written 50 years ago. Now read Ravi Batra's new book "The New Golden Age" predicting a revolution.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: dick Definition.... Posted by: ekipnrut
Price is no object when others are paying
Posted by: rwa on Feb 17, 2007 8:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matthew Asks:

Why did the liberal hawks so resolutely refuse to consider these on-the-ground facts as they marshaled their pro-war arguments?

Juan Cole has the answer:


It is an echo of the one-two punch secretly planned by the pro-Likud faction in the Department of Defense. First, Iraq would be taken out by the United States, and then Iran. David Wurmser, a key member of the group, also wanted Syria included. These pro-Likud intellectuals concluded that 9/11 would give them carte blanche to use the Pentagon as Israel's Gurkha regiment, fighting elective wars on behalf of Tel Aviv (not wars that really needed to be fought, but wars that the Likud coalition thought it would be nice to see fought so as to increase Israel's ability to annex land and act aggressively, especially if someone else's boys did the dying).

link

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Excuses! Excuses! Excuses!
Posted by: Magginkat on Feb 17, 2007 9:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm tired of reading, "If I had known then what I know now...........". That is pure hogwash. Thousands, if not millions of us were calling, writing, & protesting prior to this insane police action. We were reading the facts on the internet that made us ask questions.

Are we supposed to believe that this Congress had no idea that Bush, Cheney & their thugs were lying?

One only had to look at Bush's life of total failures to see that this bumbling squatter should have never been given the authority to do much more than sign bills passed by congress. Even that was questionable.

They had to know that Cheney is the real person running this corrupt show and he is one of the most evil men on earth. Saddam Hussien had nothing on that despicable piece of humanity.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Liars' Remorse...
Posted by: ekipnrut on Feb 17, 2007 9:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....The gist of the not exceptionally well written article is that
there is a two pronged test for determining the
'appropriateness' of a contemplated 'liberal intervention;
( juxtaposing two words does not a concept define....but
moving on....) To wit:
We are not realists. Rather, we agree with Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, that coercive humanitarian intervention, while useful and important, "can be justified only in the face of ongoing or imminent genocide, or comparable mass slaughter or loss of life." Avenging past slaughter, which certainly took place in Iraq years before the U.S. invasion, is not a good enough reason. Using force to build a pluralistic liberal democracy where none existed before could count as a moral justification for war if we had any sense of how to feasibly engage in such an endeavor....
In other words , it's that the wily shifty polemics of denial proffered by the bobbin', weavin' dodge artists fail THIS
test...rather coming up with incredulous 'we were misled'
or incompetence/mismanagement 'scuses.
Problem is this 'liberal intervention' thing bears an uncanny
resemblance to some of that good 'ol 19th century
noblesse oblige....stepped up to 21st Century actor/agents.
Sometimes the shortest line of hindsight or foresight is
direct, without subluminal pit stops for seminars in ethical
or philosophical dynamics in the 'new world order',etc.,etc.,...
Why not: the Iraq War was a brutal nation jack/rape by a
pack of corrupt (20 BILLION in cash on trucks 'lost'
somewhere in Iraq...20 BILLION) racist psychopaths.PERIOD
There was NO justification for the war as patently apparent
to anyone with ordinary intelligence and common knowledge awareness of current events at the time.
BTW...are the authors including the tens of thousands of Iraqis
who died as as result of Clinton's 'warm and fuzzy' sanctions
delivered over an eight year period as beneficiaries of the sunshine of 'liberal intervention' love???
Perhaps more of an emphasis on proactive prevention of
man made disasters..or at least efforts to achieve same would
be in order here.
Also the main cast of lib/hawk dodger characters alluded to
in the article :all white...mostly (maybe all) male...MY point
being that ,notwithstanding their collective political faux pas
(rationalizing their former :o) imprimatur to a war crime),
they are impliedly represented as those who quite naturally should be heeded as wise or abundantly capable in foreign policy matters. The monolithicity or race (great white) and
gender (male) becomes a bit problematic as template for further (planet)round table discussion. Inclusiveness..you know..:o)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Smart way to Invade??
Posted by: Doubtom on Feb 17, 2007 9:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Screw the smart way to invade!,,,how about we consider the legal way to invade instead? If we were a law-abiding nation, we wouldn't have to be worrying about the smart way to invade another nation.
Now, we worry about the mess if we leave. Of course the country is a mess, we blew the damn thing up and removed any semblance of order that it had.
What we need to do is find a "smart" way to get the hell out of there, period!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Oh Come on!
Posted by: Pirate1 on Feb 17, 2007 10:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There were MILLIONS of human beings in this country and all over the planet leading up to the war who knew that the "intelligence" we were being fed about Iraq being a "treat" militarily was bogus. Iraq was broken way back in 1991 and then subjected to 11 years of sanctions and almost daily bombings by American flyboys out on aerial hoots to shoot up stuff. Iraq could barely feed it's own people or rebuild all that time due to those sanctions that declared almost anything useful to be potentially used in making weapons. Even some food stuffs were listed, as were almost all very badly needed medical supplies...
Those people in Congress had access to the same information, indeed many were confronted with it directly at rallies outside their district offices and ALL of them, except for Barbara Lee, bless her, ignored it. That's why I don't buy any of the "WE were mislead" bull#$@%... They willfully IGNORED the information. I for one will never forgive them for this.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Oh Come on! Posted by: look around-like what u see?
3 Issues, not 2
Posted by: whoever on Feb 17, 2007 11:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I partly agree with this article. But I think it is ultimately in error because of oversimplification. First there are Three stances for opposing the war: First is "bad justifying ground"--the tenet that the US, or the UN or world community, is NOT justified in invading a sovereign country even where an evil dictator is building up WMD and will likely use them, and where our invasion will get rid of the WMD without making things worse in general. As a liberal thinking back to WWII appeasement, I have a mixed reaction to this--I can see it being as valid a justification as ongoing genocide, and I can imagine very bad consequences from rejecting it. Should we really trust diplomacy if e.g. Al-Qaida took over nuclear Pakistan? What about in 1991? Second is "bad facts/decisionmaking"--Bush et al lied about the facts and the context, to us but probably to themselves as well--the evidence gave no support to the justification, and their plan and assessment of its outcomes were so incompetent as to be submoronic. The war predictably made things worse in every way--Iraqncei lives/deaths, US security narrowly construed, and US status in the world. This is an incompetence argument that does not imply that we should have gone to war or be there now. Third is "bad planning/execution"--going to war may have been a good idea, it was just carried out by incompetents.

This article attacks politicians emphasizing the third stance. We have to realize that the third stance has several advantages: being clearly true [only denied by the most sleazy conservatives], easily supported by ongoing news, implying that 'regime change' in the US would do a lot of good, and being appealing to the many voters who remember supporting the war. It does have disadvantages, justifying staying in Iraq, and putting the Dems behind the 8-ball when they are unable to come up with a better strategy, since the war is unwinnable, so they'll get blamed and lose in 2010 if they win in 2008. But this is America, where politicians who think that far ahead don't steadily succeed.

Stance 2 has advantages, too--being clearly true [though denied by quite a few more conservatives], with potential growing support from investigations, and having the pretty clear implication that we should get out of Iraq ASAP. It was the stance of France/Germany in 2003. It has some bad features, though--creating dissonance and the uncomfortable need to flip-flop for early war supporters, still implying no clear right strategy, leaving the US looking pretty scummy (as it should--I know).

Stance 1 is the "noble self" stance; it has the advantages of being the "high virtue" and slaughter-avoidant position, has support from the most recent war experience (though less from the 1991 case). The big problem is political--too few voters would say "we should not have gone in even if the WMD evidence was totally true and solid." And validity as a general norm--see my doubts above, and I'm pretty far to the left/antimilitary side.

I wish we had more politicians arguing for stance 1, but the actual most virtuous choice is probably a nuanced version that no politician could even communicate, let alone run on. Stance 3 is the resort of cowardly pseudoleftists--Hilary, but not her alone. Stance 2 is probably the best political choice, but does not get recognized by this article.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

But Who Will Invade and Liberate the USA?
Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 17, 2007 12:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The biggest point to accept is that America is often seen by most countries as being extremely hypocritical. For instance:

1. Stories abound about the USA kidnapping foreigners, presumed to be "terrorists" (with the CIA as judge and jury) in countries such as Italy for transport to countries like Egypt and certain torture. Is this how a "democracy" behaves?

2. Reports of the USA operating secret prisons for "terrorists" but also probably dissidents from countries like Iraq and Afghanistan abound. Of course, we also have Guantamo, prima facia evidence of how the USA violates international law. Again, is this how a democracy behaves?

3. GW Bush was obviously not elected US President in 2000, the stopped recount would have shown Al Gore won. Serious questions were never even addressed about the election in 2004, especially uncounted (by the thousands) democratic votes in Ohio. Is this how an election is conducted in a democracy?

4. The USA illegally invaded Iraq. But, it also has engaged in campaigns, likely clandestinally, to oust popularly elected leaders like Chavez. The USA also has poured money into other countries (like the Ukraine) in an attempt to determine democratic elections in favor of the USA preferred candidate. Is this how a democracy operates?

5. The USA, of the developed countries, has the highest ratio of concentrated wealth in the top 10% of its population. Millions go without healthcare, thousands even without food. Over 1 million languish in her prisons. Again, is this how a democracy divides up its wealth?

6. In the USA, the political process is controlled by wealthy corporations and elites who donate large sums of cash to preferred candidates. Again, is this how a democracy operates?

I could go on and on, but what is the point. So who will invade and liberate the USA. I vote for a real democracy like Sweden or the Netherlands. Why don't we invite them over?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Dutch liberation Posted by: WhatNow?
» RE: Dutch liberation Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Dutch liberation Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Humanitarian intervention
Posted by: WhatNow? on Feb 17, 2007 1:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can anybody equate the use of depleted uranium with humanitarian intervention? clinton is a war criminal too.

A supposedly great country like the US could not compel hussien to stay out of Kuwait? I think we very easily could have. I think he was suckered. If it had been made clear to him that invading Kuwait would result in his military being decimated I think he would have refrained. I also think he may have had some justification too. I read reports for years prior to 8/2/90 that the Kuwaitis were cross drilling to tap Iraqi oil fields. Had this been investigated and been stopped, he may have left them alone.

I think hussien's and milosevich's greatest crimes in the eyes of american leaders were their socialist tendencies not their oppressive policies. If they had towed the amerikan corporate line they probably would have been considered good leaders by amerika. At one time Iraq had one of the best standards of living in the middle east, some of the best schools, best medical care, and most had access to electricity and clean water. How can it be considered humanitarian intervention when we make the situation worse for the majority of the people and only seem to help a neoliberal economic agenda?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Shame on you
Posted by: Melvin on Feb 17, 2007 3:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GW Bush used weapons of mass destruction to fool the fools to Invade Iraq.
Consider this.. He used patriotism ,fear & ego all of which the USA has in abundance. The Democrats being no more or less than the rest of the citizens of the USA fell for the deception just as those that elected them. Now the majority of US Americans are finger pointing to anyone & everyone whilst explaining they "they" did not & never have supported the invasion & occupation (THIS IS NOT A WAR) of Iraq.
As GW said you fooled me once err; err ; you fools.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

WHERE IS TWIAN WHEN WE NEED HIM?
Posted by: radbear on Feb 17, 2007 5:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The current dilemma is not new. The America desire to become an empire - albeit a kinder, gentler empire - was noticed by Mark Twain, author of "To The Person Sitting In Darkness." I can remember a television broadcast for the local Peace Committee, during the Viet Nam disaster, in which I read from that extended, novella length essay. Perhaps it should become required reading in our secondary schooil systems. Twain identified what he called "the Blessings Of Civilization Trust." It seems that the Sherman Act has had no more effect against that trust than it now has against any American conglomerate. Because the American public has become so angry and, lately, a bit desperate about the mess in Iraq and the impending mess in Iran, it may be that we will be far more suspicious of those who want us to drink the toxic brew, laced with equal parts of greed and quai-religious patriotic bluster. Still, I wish that Twain were here to give us his opinions about the latest incarnatioins of The King and The Duke, the president and vice president of the United States.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Return for a full refund! Posted by: Melvin
Bush the Elder Told Us to Stay Out of Iraq (But Jr. can't read..!!)
Posted by: SusanC on Feb 17, 2007 7:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"In their cowritten 1998 book, "A World Transformed" George Bush the Elder
and Brent Scowcroft discussed regime change in Iraq:

Trying to eliminate Saddam [in 1991], extending the ground war into an
occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guidelines about not changing
objectives in midstream, engaging in 'mission creep,' and would have
incurred incalculable human and political costs . . .[We] Would have have
been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would
instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting in anger and other allies
pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable 'exit
strategy' we could see, violating another of our principles . . . Had we
gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an
occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a
dramatically different - and perhaps barren - outcome." (quoted in Losing
America, pg 154)

Source: Biography.ms via Google

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Another whiner! Posted by: Melvin
It's Only About Oil
Posted by: Cargill1 on Feb 18, 2007 1:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it is very disturbing (but perhaps not surprising) that a 3,000-word article on the causes of, and justification for, the Iraq invasion does not talk about oil. Not once. The invasion of Iraq (twice) and the invasion of Afghanistan are only about controlling as much Middle East and Central Asian oil assets as is possible. Any aggression against Iran will be for the same strategic reasons.

The rest of the world knows this - why don't commentators from all political positions in the US recognise this simple reality? Is it too painful? To be honest, to elevate any discussion about liberal and other principles - most of all 'humanitarianism' - in relation to Iraq and Afghanistan, looks obscene from the outside. It is only about oil - profit and power.

Maybe that IS the problem - the securing of oil for another decade (maybe) is actually considered a legitimate reason for invading Iraq and causing the deaths of many thousands. Addicts will do anything to get one more fix - the are amoral in every sense.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Francis Boyle: Posted by: rwa
» RE: It's Only About Oil Posted by: MartianBachelor
» "Peak Oil" is a hoax Posted by: rwa
» Peak Oil is no hoax Posted by: Cargill1
» Iraq is Oil-specific Posted by: Cargill1
» View from the Armchair Posted by: Cargill1
» Simple - it's about Oil Posted by: Cargill1
» Complete Denial Posted by: rwa
» RE: Complete Denial Posted by: Cargill1
» OPEN THE LINKS Posted by: rwa
» Protocols of Zion Next? Posted by: Cargill1
» RE: Protocols of Zion Next? Posted by: asilsfable
» Triple Agent Posted by: Cargill1
Julie428
Posted by: Julie428 on Feb 18, 2007 7:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that the very idea of invading another sovereign country is morally wrong unless there's genocide taking place and then the UN (if it were an effective body) should take action, not an individual country or a make-shift "coalition of the willing" which was a sham. The time to have ivaded Iraq at all would have been in 1988 when Saddam gassed the Kurds. Since no one objected, he had free reign to do as he pleased, and even did much of it with our support. I wonder where the outrage of the conservatives was when Saddam gassed the Kurds? Was it belated outrage that just came to the surface under Bush? In any event, the war itself was both unjustified and incompetently conducted. One does not preclude the other.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Stephen C. Pelletiere: Posted by: rwa
Liberal ignorance: random acts of delusion
Posted by: fifthworld on Feb 18, 2007 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Warmongering or not (that's rather the extreme example of hypocrisy) liberals are largely (note, I say, largely) complacent boomer homeowners with a few issue-worries like social security, "the environment" (yawn), health, but somehow not enough to summarily shake them up. They won't see, hear, feel, smell or tell the deeper truths socially and politically, and have mental barriers to getting the big picture of how this whole system's going to give way and what that will mean in the near future. They're optimists and, like Obama, just want to get along, make nice, draw from both sides of the aisle. My parents are "liberals" in their 70s and "don't want to go there" in this classic way. I think, and this may be key, they got worn out from the 60s and 70s times, and now wouldn't even suspect the CIA or any still-viler government arms of doing anything wrong anywhere.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Liberal ignorance: random acts of delusion
Posted by: fifthworld on Feb 18, 2007 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Warmongering or not (that's rather the extreme example of hypocrisy) liberals are largely (note, I say, largely) complacent boomer homeowners with a few issue-worries like social security, "the environment" (yawn), health, but somehow not enough to summarily shake them up. They won't see, hear, feel, smell or tell the deeper truths socially and politically, and have mental barriers to getting the big picture of how this whole system's going to give way and what that will mean in the near future. They're optimists and, like Obama, just want to get along, make nice, draw from both sides of the aisle. My parents are "liberals" in their 70s and "don't want to go there" in this classic way. I think, and this may be key, they got worn out from the 60s and 70s times, and now wouldn't even suspect the CIA or any still-viler government arms of doing anything wrong anywhere.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Francis Boyle:
Posted by: rwa on Feb 18, 2007 2:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It’s very clear that high officials in the Democratic Party, certainly on the DNC, have been complicit with the Bush Administration in this war against Iraq from the get go. The Democratic national committee still vigorously opposes putting in any bills of impeachment against Bush and Cheney. Podesta made that very clear to us on 13 March 2003. Also, former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, a very courageous person, has reported that the DNC put enormous pressure on her not to file bills of impeachment despite the fact that I know she wanted to do it. We were in contact with each other. Likewise, Congressman Lewis from Georgia made a statement that Bush should be impeached. He was then invited on Fox News. Susan Estrich was substituting and Estrich is a member of the DNC, a very powerful member, she had headed the Dukakis campaign in 1988, and she literally savaged Congressman Lewis, showed him absolutely no respect when he tried to argue the point of impeachment. And by the end of the session she had basically bullied him into saying that well, maybe Bush shouldn’t be impeached.

So we have the problem that the DNC opposes impeachment for partisan political reasons. Also, they are heavily funded by pro Israel sources who also want to see the United States attack Iran and do Israel’s dirty work for it. So it’s really for the constituents of some of these members of Congress to directly confront them and to demand first that they support the Feingold Bill to cut off all further funding for this war and second, put in immediate bills of impeachment against Bush and Cheney to stop what could be an homicidal aggression against Iran that could set off a third world war."

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]