It's simple, really.

If modern women put out more, then modern men wouldn't have to watch so much porn to get off nowadays. This especially pertains to men in their teens and twenties (maybe early-to-mid thirties too).

Women: stop being such prudes and end modern man's reliance on pornography! All you have to do is have more sex with us!

But don't forget about that popular article from last year, "Men Who Love Burgers and Loathe Sex" -- seems like more and more men (and women) these days are becoming pornosexuals because its easier and more convenient, eschewing 'normal' sexual relationships in favor of a quick, easy, and clean/disease-free orgasm through a website or DVD. No hassle, no problems, no drama.

It's just easier that way.

Of course we all want the real thing but since women aren't putting out enough, men have to make up the difference somehow. It's a simple matter of chemistry: men have about 20 to 30 times the amount of testosterone that women have, hence our high sex drives. We cannot deny our inner chemistry, much like women cannot deny the chemical/hormonal changes that take place in their bodies during the course of the monthly menstrual cycle or menopause.

People are also marrying and settling down in to relationships much later in life now; back in the day people were married at 14-15-16 years old (sometimes younger), started having many children immediately, and thus always had a sexual partner at hand if they wanted/needed one. This is obviously not the case today. People also have a higer sex drive in their teens and twenties, so perhaps this is PRECISELY the time when more real-world sex should be encouraged. But since this is more difficult in the modern world we have to satisfy our wants and needs somehow (ANYHOW), and often this falls to the fake porn-world.

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"Women: stop being such prudes and end modern man's reliance on pornography! All you have to do is have more sex with us!"


I listen to a lot of women... they love sex....or shall I say they love "making love". What they don't like is the "hey let's make it" attitude of many men today. If more men learn how to romance women then maybe they would get a little, more often.
It sounds like you just don't have what it takes to get what you want. Don't blame a woman's lack of testosterone for your lack of sensitivity. Sorry dude.

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The last time I reviewed the American Psychological Association (APA) abstracts for studies on pornography, as opposed to the feminist rhetoric that had I read in the early 80's, I found that pornography was essentially positive and correlated with the following:

- liberal attitudes
- a large reduction in sex crime, as when the Netherlands allowed pornography to be sold over the counter
- orgasm and sexual responsiveness in women

Men and women respond similarly to most forms of pornography, and dislike of pornography tended to occur in women that were victims of sexual abuse and/or raped.

Pornography is a good thing, and if you dislike it, you need to examine society, not its expression.

Also, men tend to get involved with pornography because it focuses on women, one of the most arousing forms of erotica for men. Women rarely enjoy pornography to the same degree because women don't get as aroused by the sight of naked men as men get aroused by naked women. If you find it misogynistic, you are only looking at a small subset of the market.

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And I suspect there is a lot of fear here since the posters until now have completely missed the point of the article!

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MAN!

Talk about lost causes.

This one takes the cake.

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. . . but it probably is. I know it is sexist and based on the subjugation of women. Now that I think about it there is a deeper underlying note -- the drive for instant gratification is shot through our society. Its easier tp watch a stroke movie than to take the risks of seeking a relationship. Its also another drug.

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Let's discuss it from a truly open and honest perspective, not from the point that the world has already gone to hell, and pornography was the handbasket that it rode in on!

The author requests open discussion, but where are the open questions to be discussed?

He makes strong claims regarding "the cruelty of our culture, and the white supremacy and misogyny that abounds". Is this what he wants to "openly" discuss?

He makes a very good point that criticizing pornography does not mean that one is "anti-sex". Agreed.

He makes another good point that one who favors open discussion of pornography does not have to favor censorship. Agreed.

He then states, "The goal is to begin an honest conversation about the way in which 'mainstream' pornography, the bulk of which is marketed to heterosexual men, is increasingly cruel and degrading to women and more openly racist than ever -- at the same time that it is increasingly accepted as mainstream entertainment."

Aha, he wants to begin an "open" and "honest" conversation from a very firm and established viewpoint that he has not yet provided a case for. He then throws in a little "profit-driven sexism and racism", "cruelty of our culture" and "sexual violence".

Is this a viable starting point "to confront the issue of pornography more openly"?

How about some open questions...
Is mass-marketed pornography misogynist? If it is, why? What does this reflect about our culture?

Is mass-marketed pornography promoting white supremacy? How? Why?

Is it "increasingly cruel and degrading to women"?
Is it "more openly racist than ever"?
Is it "increasingly accepted as mainstream entertainment"?
How? Why?
What does this mean to our society?

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This is posibly the silliest article I have read on this site.

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I just gave a few...If you need any more read anything by the late Andrea Dworking or simply go to your local porn shop...You'll find PLENTY.

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Pornography, is merely an aberration of a sick society.

However, look at cruelty where we can see that this permeates right across America, and further : Guatanamo, the Prisons, Violence in the Cities - the Schools. In the NFL, in the NBA - the "Sport" of TV Wrestling. Domestic Abuse.
The ongoing slaughter of Iraqi innocents - in the main ignored by the media whilst they focus on the sad death of someone who posed with her clothes on in a pornographic magazine.
A cruel administration who is content to continue its sacrifice of our young in the name of democracy.
The debate goes on - how to execute prisoners without cruelty: what a sick culture.
Seeing the forces of law and order using 2 x 250 policemen throw an old man to the ground - shackle and chain him, why? because he did not hear them calling him to stop.
The guns, the treatment of Mexicans - endless, mindless non ending cruelty.

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The basic problem with having an "honest discussion" of this topic or any other is that both sides typically begin with the assumption that everyone knows exactly what they're talking about.

Reading this column, I have no problem with having an open and honest discussion of pornography, but what, exactly, is pornography? Does that include Playboy magazine and hardcore S/M and everything in between, or are we more concerned with the really hardcore stuff? In my part of the world, there are those that consider the SI swimsuit issue pornography and exploitative of women. Is this something to be included in the discussion? Are all pictures of naked ladies pornography? What about naked men?

Diplomacy is largely the art of compromise, and there can be no compromise if both sides are locked into their ways of thinking and unwilling to consider and be open to other ideas. This begins by being crystal clear about what you're saying and what you mean.

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Porn is just an aid to masturbation. Why shouldn't it be available to those who want it? Feminists don't ever look at the fact that vibrators may deter a girl from seeking a meaningful or just temporary sexual relationship. Is there any real male with a penis that has a rabbit at the base? Talk about degrading the male penis !! The penis was worshiped as the generating force of life, before the Christians came along. Go visit Delos in Greece to see it in its glory. Perhaps if we had more of that, there would be no need for porn !!

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Acknowledging porn means facing reality? You don't have to go to the darkest corners of the internet to see that. Look out the window or watch TV.

I like the feminist approach in that lawsuits can help victims, whereas state repression hurts everyone. Of course, we all know the legal system can easily be abused by money-grubbing, embittered individuals claiming to be victims.

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Excellent article! We all need to distinguish between "diatribe" and "dialogue", and be open to further discussion. Another problem-factor is the way sex-appeal is marketed to young girls; too many want respect but also want the rewards of looking as sexy as they can. I suspect that the life and recent death of Anna Nicole Smith and her "mixed-upness" help illustrate this point.

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Consenting adults trying to make a living with what they have and they turn into corporate sexual predators or worse propagating a culture that takes advantage of what we think is love.

Scary.

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There is one huge gap in this story. The equation of pornography with heterosexual porn, and thus the exploitation of women.

Ladies and gentlemen, porn is not a gender-specific issue. Homosexual porn is a huge segment of the market, not to mention the major kinks that hinge on transexuals, children, animals, etc. By equating pornography only with male-female pornography (and assuming that the bulk of it exploits women but not men) limits the discussion to a level deeper than the surface, but nowhere near the real basis.

Let's question the real basis of pornography: the illicit pleasure of watching humans having sex. There are and have been cultures where pornography did not and could not exist, not because of technological lacks, but because of the lack of a psychological desire to view others having sex. Now, why does our society - in fact, all modern technological societies - have a thriving pornography industry? I haven't finished figuring that out yet, and I won't make any snap rationales here. I would simply like to see the debate brought down to basics, so that we can stop slinging blame at this or that gender (not denying that women are indeed exploited, and that men do a great deal of the exploiting; but male porn actors aren't exactly free agents either). Let's find out the real, basic reasons for the appeal of pornography, and then we can discuss how to solve the problem, if we decide that it is, indeed, a problem.

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To the guy who posted the first comment in this thread saying if women "put out" more, men wouldn't have to look at porn? All I could think is do you live in a cave and carry a club around with you? What an archiac attitude. It is certainly not women's fault that porn exists or that you men look at it -- please don't blame us for your weakness. It's as bad as saying women get raped because they "asked for it". Throughout history women have been supposedly at fault for so many things, but what it comes down to is male fears and weaknesses they just can't or won't take responsibility for. I sincerely don't think women "putting out" for you men is going to make much of an impact on the porn industry. Good grief.

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I agree with the previous comments about real sex and less porn. I am a married man and it seems that sex had gone the way of food. It has become a "badge of honor" among Caucasian (white) women that they are too busy to have sex, as they are too busy to cook I do most of the food preparation. I say this as a man who works in a multicultural workplace and I notice a different attitude among African American and/or Hispanics. They seems to be an understanding that "you marry a man, you have sex with him. (at regular intervals) I would venture that most here who view porn are not looking for S&M or fantasize slave or submissive women. They are yearning for their wives. And yes, many men crave oral sex. Shoot us I have read (I have I have no statistics to back this up) that one of the fastest growing porn sites are those that offer glimpses of women over 50. who is viewing. Frustrated husbands yearning for their wives. Having love (having sex) should be part of a relationship- an extension of your commitment like having dinner together (another vanishing endeavor) Most men do not just love their wives, they Crave their wives.
Other cultures understand and acknowledge, its time the busy Caucasian women follow suit

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Porn is the most progressive social movements in human history. It is also one of the most dynamic business forces out there. Its much-played-up harm is mostly not true. People - and feminists - should spend more time worrying about war, poverty and the breakdown in human trust than about porn. Porn embraces all - it is a place for all freaks, all tastes, all desires. It is a socially liberalising force that brings together the races.

What is wrong these days is 90 per cent nothing to do with porn. Bush's wars - not porn's fault. Kids going bananas in schools - not porn's fault. Povety - not porn's fault. Collapse of communism and the desperation of the people in those countries - not porn's fault.

I am tired of feminists complaining about this without any context. I am tired of women in the west not being able to look in the mirror and see the selfish-narcisitic, materialistic selves starring back.

Porn ain't the problem.

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The answer is simple, it's just not easy. The pornography the author describes is a symptom, not a cause. And the more efforts to shut it down, to force it away, either by legal means (demonstrably ineffective throughout history) or by hectoring it out of the public square and shaming those who would seek it, the more repression involved, the more extreme it will become.

Left to its own, the stuff becomes something akin to boring very quickly. It's the lure of the forbidden that's the draw. As for the truly violent and extreme stuff, it's more a reflection of how violent and extreme we as a society have become than a hard shove down the slippery slope.

What the author suggests is the classic approach of treating the symptom in the hope the disease will simply get better by itself as a result. The cure, as above, is simple, it's just not easy. If the US were a less violent, less repressed, less "extreme" society, if we didn't have the ongoing fascination with inflicting harm on others for our own benefit - or far worse, simply for our own amusement - then the odds are we'd see less violence in the rest of our "entertainment", be it pornography, 24, or CNN.

In short, the answer is not to become more selective censors, the answer is instead to become a healthier, less repressed and censorious society. If we become better people, there's less to worry about. If not, no efforts will help.

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People don't like to have their pleasures spoiled, and thus will resist any attempt to get them to open their eyes. Freud said when a person has his denied, covert impulses pointed out to him, it's like "spitting in his soup". If these guys enjoy watching women (or other people of either gender or any race) degraded, and don't want to admit what a hard-on they get over it, then they'll say "Oh this is silly" or "this is annoying". What they really mean is "don't interrupt me while I'm getting off."

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As at least one other poster has noted, the author's stated desire to engage in an "open & honest" discussion seems somewhat disingenuous, as he insists on framing the limits of such a discussion before it begins. One glaring example might be that he only wants to talk about pornography in the most limited sense possible, as in "naughty still & motion photography of people having sexual intercourse", ignoring the many, more pervasive concepts (Advertising? Professional sports? POLITICS?) the term could also be applied to. Further, one comes away from the article with the feeling that his idea of openness & honesty boils down to "do you agree with me, or do you really agree with me?", with anyone who doesn't being summarily placed on the Anti-Feminism side of the fence. He deplores the chilly reception he receives when handing out leaflets, but I have to wonder; Is it possible that his fellow Feminists are tired of this issue? Could it have something to do with the simple fact that no one likes having pamphlets handed to them? Perhaps he is encountering resistance due to the fact that he is a Male Feminist attempting to (to some degree) dictate what Feminism means? Speaking as an earnest White Male, I long ago was bluntly informed by various Black people that I "couldn't talk" about racism. Did I see this as counterproductive & "unfair"? Sure, but in the end, I had no (productive) choice but to accept it.

I consider myself a "personist" who supports the full flowering of my fellow persons, male or female, Gay, Straight, whatever. I don't call myself a Feminist, because I feel that movement long ago fell prey to dogmatism. As a man, I feel it's my "duty" to be the best man I can be, which includes giving women room to be the best women they can be. To put it another way, I also support Gays in their process of becoming accepted & happy, but that doesn't mean I would call myself a "Gayist". Make sense?

Having said all that, yes I consume some pornography (as rigidly defined by the author), at least in part due to some of the reasons stated above by Mr. "Baboon" (although I wouldn't express them in the same way). Do I come across some behaviors that disturb me or strike me as "unhealthy"? Emphatically, yes. Would I go so far (as one poster has) to call the people engaging in those behaviors "sick"? I certainly don't hold myself in high enough regard to make a broad judgement there!

As with just about anything, pornography ranges from harmless to harmful. Just like in the case of video games or non- (sexually) explicit movies, the viewer must filter & examine their reaction to any given content & be able to discern the difference between fantasy & reality.

I won't be the first or last to mention this, but I find it fascinating that there are so many anti-porn porn experts out there. Way to take one for the team, folks!

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...and gitmo. The behaviors & tortures in these places don't happen in a vacuum, they're learned through the medium of pornography. Getting 'off' on sexualized violence is a very cruel way of pissing on someone else's torment & degradation.

But by all means lets' democratize the whole shebang and include unwilling & unempowered white men into the mix. Let's show them on their knees with shit & semen on their faces & in their mouths and huge rubber dicks stuck up their asses. Let's tie them up and cut them and twist their nipples and dicks into hugely swollen and unrecognizable artifacts of human flesh and then let us pump ourselves silly with ecstasy over our creations.

After all it's all about the love, right?

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It's a real pity that one word, 'pornography' seems nowadays to have become a generic term for anything erotogenic. What a poverty-stricken language ours must be if we have to use the same word for the most horrible abuse of a child, the brutal rape (or even murder) of a woman and the most beautiful of temple carvings or the Kama Sutra. For goodness' sake, let's get the language straight. When I talk about pornography, I don't mean erotica.
I'm sure the author of this article has no problem with erotica, whether as art, literature or film. The issue here is not sex. It is violence, misogyny, racism, abuse and sexual exploitation of men, women and children. And let's not pretend that we can't tell the difference between something that celebrates sexuality and something that degrades it. Let's not pretend that we are being 'broad-minded' when we fail to condemn pornography for the harm it does. It does harm. It harms not only those who are exploited in its production but also those who become addicted to it. For like many other addictions, it demands increasing doses to get a good fix. (That's how we got 'snuff movies'). And that is a process of desensitization, not just for the individual but ultimately for the whole culture. The same applies to violence in general, of course, and we see that desensitization happening all around us.
Good quality erotica -- the depiction, in whatever form, of fully consensual, non-exploitative, life-enhancing, loving, respectful, sexual activity, whether hetero or homo -- does not do this. It can help to enhance sexual enjoyment, to increase sexual sensation and for a couple it can deepen intimacy. Yet it harms no-one, does not desensitize and does not require increasingly large doses.
In the context of deepened intimacy, quality improves and becomes more important than quantity. The ultimate in deep intimacy and sexual pleasure is tantric sex, which is a sacred practice. Many people, before they are ready for those high peaks of sexual experience, need to release taboos around their own sexuality and increase their sensitivity and receptiveness to sexual stimuli. Erotica of different kinds can often play a useful part in that. It also has an important educational function and helps people to become better lovers.
So let's start trying to sort it all out into three piles, shall we? The good stuff that enhances, the bad stuff that does harm and the stuff we aren't sure about.
Yes, for sure there is a lot that will need to go into that third pile. It's not all clear-cut, by any means. And it will be difficult to get consensus, that's for sure. But please let's grow up and start the conversation.

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new methods for porn distribution. Laws cannot easily keep up with porn. As porn becomes easier to produce (its legal, more women willing to do it, cheaper to produce, cheaper to distribute) more players enter the market. Then each player must go 'beyond' what's out there and the porn gets 'harder and harder'- its a race to most weird, perverse, extreme. This also can happen to the viewer as well, start out with Playboy, then Penthouse, then Hustler, and then 'special' mags. It also happens to the "actresses" who needs to perform more and more unique "acts" to maintain her work.

This happened in the 60's in Europe and USA in the 70's when porn was legalised. It quickly went from relatively innocuous pin-up girls to incest themes, hard bondage, rape 'fantasy', and even bestiality and child porn. Then the law, in most places, started cracking down. Areas of town where the theaters operated were cleaned up and it went away, almost. Then Betamax and VHS hit the scene and we have the explosion and subseqent Meese Commission crack down. Then the internet. That one is hard to control and the anonymous aspect further helps the porn world become darker (animals, real children, fake teenagers, s&m, torture, maybe even snuff.)

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The first post from the guy who says women "don't put out enough". Sounds like he basically thinks of women as a vehicle for male pleasure, and not much else.

I wonder if that attitude was influenced or encouraged by porn use?

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There's definitely a good argument that mass-marketed porn is bad in all (or at least many of) the ways listed. But there's also a history of feminist critique of pornography that encompasses all porn of pretty much any shape and size and content. And the fact is, because of that history, if you're going to argue against a particular type of porn, rather than porn in general, you're going to need to give some specific counterexamples of what you would consider good or at least non-harmful porn. That will make it clear that you're not targeting porn in general, but rather the specific racist, misogynist, etc. elements found in most porn.

So, really, if we're going to have a more open conversation about pornography, rather than starting with the socially easy part (attacking bad porn), let's start with the more difficult part: define, give specific examples of, and defend good porn.

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It's time people quit pretending to be progressive and liberal ,and then think they can be for censorship. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. This is no more then censorship in the long Carie Nation/ Prohibition tradition. Loose this.

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Come on guys, let's admit it, many of us watch a lot of the stuff. Now.....

First off, there may well be the misogynistic elements in porn, and other socially destructive images, a lot of vicious acting-out and the like, but from what I've observed that's changed significantly. Or am I wrong? It seems there is a trend towards much more "reality" porn of various kinds, the home-made stuff (anybody can post videos online now for public consumption), not to mention the made-by-women films that have been around for decades. So there's been a change and strictly speaking it ain't all so nasty on those levels.

What's worse in my view is the commodification of sex through porn's super-abundance and availability. I'm looking at the demand side of things, just as I favor preventive medicine, taking responsbility for one's life, being fully conscious. Masturbation can be healthy but can just as easily be a substitute for all kinds of things, an avoidance of 'issues' of various sorts, and worst of all, a denial of the need for love and community, in a time when such things seem more and more difficult. It goes beyond the need for relationship -- I think that gets over-emphasized sometimes! We're talking about the very sense of belonging in the world, to the world, through work, through creativity and imagination, all passionate activity. Amp up your "social life" and not only do you "get more", you give more, and your immediate desperation or frustration is alleviated by an expanded sense of who you are for others.

And as for my title above, well, I admit to knowing from experience that the old wisdom about addictions, at whatever level, is true -- if you feel worse about yourself after passively getting off, that's an addiction. Interesting that I read a well-known psychologist say once that many people engage in addictive behaviors IN ORDER TO FEEL WORSE about themselves -- as in, reinforcing low self-esteem or any other sense of abjection, unworthiness. Interesting stuff. Personally I think this is where the discussion of porn should be most focused.

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Look at the Iraqi war porn... except that it isn't faked, it's real, it's your tax dollars at work... and you won't see these pictures on the front pages of your local rag.

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

This topic is bull, and yet it's sure to draw the most comments of any piece published on Alternet this weekend - who cares if men and women want to get paid for having sex in front of a camera? You call that a 'moral outrage?' You feel the need to throw in your two cents on subjugation and oppression? Take another look...

Belly button gazing - maybe we should all have a long discussion about Anna Nicole Smith, and whether it's wrong for American pop stars to adopt African orphans...

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It's the same old same old. There are fortunes to be made in the porn industry. Exploiting women or anyone else is fair game. It's a mindless pastime. It does however distort what a real sex life is about. It's like guys playing soft ball after work. Then they go home and watch the World Series. There is a difference. The Yankees get paid, you probably don't. To compare the woman you love with a porn star is unrealistic.Neither of you can live up to it for very long. Porn may have taken the fun out of sex. What a shame! Thanks, ANNA

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But, how is porn racist?

I am anti-porn myself, though I agree with the poster who said the problem is our society, not the porn. If no one watched it, it would go away--the nature of capitalist enterprise.

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So, according to feminists, pornography is sexist and degrading? Well, that certainly comes as a HUGE surprise to me. How about you? Porn is also racist? I'm sure it is in some instances. It's probably also intimidating and damaging to the self-esteem of men with little peckers and women with small tits or fat asses. What are we doing to assuage their fears and reassure them that the bad little images won't haunt them in the future? Get over yourselves!

I can only assume that some feminists oppose pornography so vigorously because it often creates a false model for the treatment of women, not only in the bedroom, but in life in general. Unfortunately, this kind of "entertainment" is protected in much the same way that the KKK is protected. There are myriad things of which we don't approve but sometimes you've just gotta grow up little buckaroo and stop worrying about what others are doing with their bodies. Sound familiar?

Funny thing though. I am constantly witnessing acts of female on male violence in tv and movies and yet not a peep from feminists about how this may be creating the perception that it's ok (and actually funny) for women to smack men over the head with frying pans for making comments about their weight, another woman, etc. I thought feminism was about equality and fair treatment for BOTH sexes. So, let's talk about how porn is becoming increasingly misogynistic and racist right before we recognize that it's still protected. So long as women CONSENT to star in thsese movies, and get paid well for doing it, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you want to argue the merits of prosecuting men who force women into sexual acts against their will, then you're onto something, otherwise move on and find something else to fret over.

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There are so many problems with the whole issue. Is there a set universal definition of what is porn, or is it relative to a person or group's culture, faith, philosophy, norms, folkways, and experience? Is there really such a thing as non-exploitive, non-destructive pornography? Who gets to decide what is pornography, on what basis and by what right do they get to make that classification?

I'll be among the first to admit that the US culture is really messed up in it's folkways, norms and laws regarding sexuality, but I really don't see a good answer as to how the society can easily or quickly undo the cumulative effect of history. I certainly don't trust people who make their living from porn defining it, nor do I trust those who argue from some self-informed moral high ground.

Just like interpreting a religious text or teaching, defining what is healthy and non-exploitive sexual expression is all over the map. There is an old joke about asking 4 theologians about the meaning of a passage in a text and getting 6 opinions. I'm afraid the same applies here.

The compelling interest of the society and government is to protect people from being exploited- outside of that it shouldn't really be the government's business. Everything else enters the realm of legislating morality based upon one's faith- a definite no-no in a secular state.

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The concept of "free speech" in the US has been twisted to the point that while someone can be ejected from a public political venue for wearing a tshirt that proclaims offensive slogans like "Peace" or "Stop the War", a multibillion dollar industry can hide behind it to continue making making its billions.

Mass marketed pornography is not "free speech" - it is commerce. It is not intended to convey a message. It is intended to turn a profit.

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After all, you can talk about pornography, and abortion, and other BS issues all day, and noone will bother you - but when it comes to the real issues - the illegal war in Iraq, the blatant corruption of our government, the criminal behavior of Big Pharma and Big Oil - the fear seeps in, doesn't it? You might end up being spied on, get your name on a list somewhere, end up in the FBI files with people watching your every move - so you talk about porn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmnDbM3n2m0

This is how the world ends - not with a bang, but with a whimper.

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While I agree with some of the comments here, I think most of them duck some of the real issues.

First, censorship. As far as I've found, there are no good arguments against censorship of art. Politics and ideas are different--we cripple the pursuit of truth and fair social governance if we keep some ideas and proposals from being discussed. Art?--there's no equivalent valued outcome that gets undermined by censorship. Is the world better off if every motion of every groin (or flower, or anything) is up in public view? Is a person better off if EVERY one of their images is 'self-expressed'? In a word, no--it's not even possible, and one or ten million more don't advance creativity or imagination or any possible value one iota--there's enough out there. This argument is especially apt for porn, which prototypically is repetitive, boring if you're not pretumescent, etc. Personally, I'd be very comfortable with censorship that promoted social goods (conservation of paper), and the world would be a much better place without porn (into which category I would not include all erotica).

The second issue that gets neglected is the porn-capitalism one. I suppose most of us would ban the "mother and 6-year-old daughter get raped by marauding band and their dogs" variety, but there seems to be a lot of acceptance and defense of the Paris Hilton variety (to give a retchworthy example). Well, there are three things that seem especially liable to media puffery--wealth, competition, and sex/debauchery (including Budweiser drinking parties). Look at commercials--I see no room for debate about this. To me, that has a clear implication--all three bring high danger for societal health. The case about wealth is obvious to all but fascist subhumans; for competition, see books by Alfie Kohn. Porn is like bad money--it drives out sex's connection with relationship and love. It helps make people subhuman. Misogyny, racism, etc., flow from this basic root evil, but they are branches of the tree, and will just grow back if the root isn't attacked.

As for studies, show me one that measures sub-humanness as described above and I'll put more credence in them. If the best argument for porn is that it doesn't always cause rape, well, that shows what level of argument will satisfy people's minds today.

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Porn is like the Crude Oil of humanity itself.
The Market serves as a refinery.
There are various fractions (genres) which are more popular than others.
Some are considered poisonous, even imical.
What they represent is nothing less than a full specturm of pleasures and torments imagined and real.
There's nothing more representative of the psychology of humanity than what it desires.
The socialization of a culture defines which fractions are more suitable than others.

Women need more security and different stimulus than men, and because of that most women find sex messy, boring, and sometimes dangerous. If more women were encouraged to enjoy porn and to be more accepting of porn the stigma of the majority of porn on the market would go away in a few generations.
Of course everything is inverted in the United States, so there can be no benefit to porn, right?

There are few women who openly enjoy porn, or admit to it. That number is _slowly_ changing.

Most women will blame their lack of happiness on others because they're passive.

They expect their partner (male or female) to know more than they do.

Of course there are very few women who are honest about what they like in the way of porn.

Women enjoy plausible denial more than men. Many live their entire lives without understanding that.
Gay porn across the board is seeing a boom because there are more women customers.
Of course men don't want to hear about this. For most men in the US the idea that their female partner would enjoy a three-some where everybody participates equally or enjoys seeing men be romantic with each other isn't the kind of thing that flies well; like incest or BSDM, or just about anything that would make people gasp. (nobody here remembers "Brokeback Mountain" and the vast female demographic that drove it's box-office success?)

Men are more likely to seek out entertainment in sex and less likely to lie about what they like and don't like which is why the market is geared towards them.
Men run the entire gamut of agression to passivity. They're less likey to limit themselves mentally or physically in sexual situations even though they're more likely to die or be injured if things go wrong.

Porn isn't an issue of chauvenism, it's a reality rooted in a species that's self-aware enough to produce and sell entertainment.

With Porn, how the politically correct want to spin an argument has become more important than the argument itself.

The "PC" people should recuse themselves from sucking so much about Porn and just enjoy some for a change.

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"When we criticize McDonald's for its unhealthy food, environmentally destructive business practices, and targeting of children through manipulative advertising, does anyone ask whether we are "anti-food"? Of course not, because no one conflates McDonald's with food; we recognize that there are many ways to prepare food, and it's appropriate to critique the more toxic varieties. "

I love this quote. It makes so much sense. I am no prude and don't suggest that people need to wait until marriage to have sex. I also don't subscribe to fundie Christian mumbo jumbo about how God wants this, that or the other thing regarding sex. I approach it from a human health standpoint, physical and mental. And my point is that we can lay out a case for why it is a good idea to wait until one is mature enough to participate in sex in ways that don't compromise them emotionally and physically. That doesn't mean that we don't provide information and access to contraceptives to those who choose to start earlier, but it does mean we clearly make a case as to why early sexuality can be so detrimental in a person's life.

Early sexual activity and exposure to pornography caused great pain in my life. It wasn't only painful in and off itself but it led to a substance abuse problem that nearly took me out. I do believe that some people can use pornography in a reasonably benign way, but I couldn't do it, and I know there are a lot of others that can't either. And even if the person consuming the porn can handle it and can rationalize a positive slant to it in his or her life, that still leaves the question of how degrading it is to the porn stars, female and male.

So, no, I don't support censorship, but I do support a cultural initiative that talks about the negative effects of exposure to porn and, yes, discourage consumption of it. We need to reduce the market so that there isn't so much incentive to do it. That takes a lot of work and isn't as easy as simply censoring it or telling people not to do it because of God's will as rather inarticulately expressed in ancient scripture. Heck, I once read that in hotels where people attend Christian conferences in-room porn useage sky rockets. So, I don't think the answer is censorship or fire and brimstone. I think it is in promoting responsibile sexuality as a health choice, just like we are address the intake of fatty and/or carb-laden foods (and, for that matter, ciggies).

This is a great piece. I thank Alternet for running it. I think it is progressive/liberal to reduce the amount of porn in the world through reducing the market. Porn just isn't really a healthy, egalitarian, pro-female industry.

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Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, their own perversions, and their own pleasures in life AS LONG AS:

A) Nobody is getting SERIOUSLY hurt against their will-- this is the problem with Women or Men considering S & M, Gangbang sex films or other nasty, nasty stuff being wrong, because rarely (and I know, I've been a part of some S & M shoots in my days and that were amazing! Those women and men are professionals, and what they do is entertainment/art... equal perversion across the board boy/girl wise there) are the people involved doing things against their will. I know it seems implausible to some that anybody would WANT to get hurt (ever read about radical piercing? Putting huge hooks into your back kind of thing?), but saying it is wrong because YOU wouldn't want to get hurt is, well wrong... I'm sorry, it's just not being open minded about the subject. I applaud feminist/liberal types that fight for victims in pornography, because it of does happen, and those guilty of such heinous crimes against women or men (the GAY PORN industry is huge folks) must be punished.

B) Minors are not being directly hurt: Where and when we consider children to be adults is an interesting subject for discussion, but there is a clear line that any person with even half a soul or heart knows cannot be crossed.

C) Nobody is getting killed.

Feminists are allowed to have their view, and I certainly am in no position to deny them their freedom to express their distaste for pornography. It is their right not to like it. Just as as it is the right for anybody that DOES like it to indulge in their pleasures as long as it does not break law.

Rape in and of itself is a horrilbe, horrible crime, but acting out rape, though completely tasteless in my view, should not be, as long as all those involved are consenting to it. I do not get off on rape scenes, but to those that do, isn't it plausible that watching it on a video is a better outlet than to actually going out and doing it? Or is this going to be like the GATEWAY DRUG theory, or VIDEO GAME VIOLENCE theories... that somehow, just watching things like this will make us want to go out and start raping every girl we see. I think those twisted in the brain enough to actually do a crime like that will not need any extra motivation. And as for children learning from pornography? My god parents of America, what the HELL are you teaching your children? They will end up seeing porn somewhere, no doubt, so teach about the values, love and care they will need to enjoy sex and never, ever hurt others (well, at least, not against their will).

So there you have it, the aritcle sure did its job for me. There is my open-discussion on the matter, for what its worth. Free speech, even horrbily tasteless free speech, should and must be free as long as it adheres to the three rules above. But as we well know, we do not live a world where true free speech, or freedom, really exists. And that is the real crime we should all be fighting against.

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This subject could be debated for years. The post above by baboon is an example of the problems we face giving credence to male views on the subject. While alot of men yes have no recourse but self gratification and therefore turn to pornography, its no call to say women should give themselves up more. orfelbleeps position is no better, yes women like the emotion invloved more than just the act, but so do some men. as some women do prefer a good tumble themselves. the real issue is do we want to control what people fantasize about in their private lives. That is porns purpose for the viewer to put themselves into the position of the performers, vicariously may be the only way they can experience such things. The performers are paid for what they do and unless im mistaken, no talent performs what they do not want to.

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One thing you have to consider about porn is the simple fact of "does it actually and ultimately work?" And, then, does the "porn addict" become a sort of victim? I mean, it is a huge, huge industry on the internet. And, it is progressive in the sense that consumers are demanding more and more violent themes, S&M and the like. Now, you have one entire set of arguments that deals with the producers. Often but not always, Eastern European women who are destitute and since in porns progression, "younger is better," questionable 18 year olds. But, beyond this is another argument. Psychologists today are "treating" a group of mostly males who have turned away from marriages, from women, to spend hours and hours on the internet. Ultimately, culminating in terminated marriages and a sexuality that can only be satisfied by graphic visual stimulation and self-gratification. The result, depression, and a sexuality that increasingly cannot be satisfied. So, you have the victims. Not just some women in say Russia or the Ukraine, or even in Malibu, but alll these guys for whom a normal sexual relationship increasingly will be difficult to ever find.

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God bless the pilgrims 500 years ago who brought us the philsophy by which this country lives by today:THOU SHALL NOT! Those 3 words echo throughout our entire culture from law to war to self rightneousness to how we behave in bed and on our dealings with other people around the world. Our lost contacts with reality are costing this nation mightly.

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Because I (a healthy, sensitive, progressive, creative, well-adjusted heterosexual white guy with no violent tendencies) enjoy looking at images of nude women (of all races), or occasionally watching soft-core flicks I am (1) sick (2) insensitive (3) boorish (4) reactionary (5) misogynist (6) a potential rapist and (7) a white supremicist?????

Holy crap! From this author's perspective I (or anyone who dares to enjoy erotica) might as well be barbequing babies in the basement, whacking off under a Nazi battle flag while forcing the naked teenage girls we keep chained up in cages to watch snuff flicks!

Ridiculous!

When genuine, healthy sexual thought and expression is brutally repressed and forced out of sight by society, you get the kind of raunchy, excessively-graphic exploititive garbage that right-wing Neo-Puritans keep hidden in their dresser drawers.

When we can begin to openly and honestly express our feelings, emotions and desires about each other without fear of societal stigma or religious censure than, I think, the most insidious species of "smut" would disappear as there would no longer be any need for it.

Let's evolve!

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Most sperm never make it to a woman (or other partner.)

Most male orgasms are from masturbation while alone.

Guys like to look at something to aid their concentration while masturbating.

So the market will always be there.

I posit that there's nothing intrinsically demeaning in producing porn; it's just the way it usually works currently.

You want non-demeaning porn, come up with a better method of producing and distributing it.

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This is really what is at the heart of most feminist critiques of porn. The prevailing critique is that pornography is structurally an exhibition of power, not some candid and "in the wild" phenomenon of sex. The dominant dynamic (no pun) is between man and woman, masculine and feminine, even when the actors are the same sex. The BDSM porn-community tries to make a special claim to their exhibition of domination and subordination, but it is really a demonstration of the prudish obscenity around which porn is structured. The power displayed in practically all porn is the exact same as the BDSM community would like to think is their purview. The reason is: porn exists, basically, because of a belief in that one segment of humanity deserves what they want from the rest, namely in this case men deserving sex from women.

That's not even the full story! In critiquing the misogyny of porn, feminist criticism really goes to the heart of the issue, which is not the sexual act as such, but the inscription of an oppressive sexuality. It's not just that men want sex from women, but that they are expected to capitulate to this demand. It isn't even a matter of capitulation, because women are expected everywhere to want their position of sub-ordination, which is inscribed in the so-called natural order of men wanting more sex than woman-- because, of course, if they want it for "natural" reasons, it is only "natural" that women should (want to) give it.

We can go in circles all day with the rhetoric of anti-pornography as pro-censorship, or that porn satisfies a "natural" need of men, though the crux of this issue is that pornography is only possible because of oppressive sexuality, which is itself symptomatic of larger discourses of domination in our society.

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This article is off on so many things, I don't know quite where to begin. I'd just start by saying that in many ways, objects produced within a society will naturally mirror the type of society in which they were made. So then, "porn" is an object, one which reflects certain uncomfortable truths about (American) society (i.e. that it is racist, sexist, classist, etc.). That said, it's unfair of the author (and many "feminists") to signal out pornography and act like they're performing some sort of cummunity service.

While Japan is far from a utopia, I can safely say that in terms of "porn," it far exceeds the US in terms of extreme content, images, and availibility. Yet it is the US, not Japan, which continues to have record levels of crime and (incidentally) whose government (like Japan 60 years ago) is occupying other people's houses illegally. What is at work, in the US, is a very old sexphobia, the residual, puritanical repression which condones depictions of (real and imagined) violence while condemning the sexual (unless, of course, the sexual is being used to sell a car, in which case it's fine!). (This is part of the reason why the homosexual is so criminalized/stigmatized in the US: seen as a primarily sexual object, they are to be feared by association.)

I'd point out to the author that each US-government funded study looking at the potential harms in pornography has found that, WOW, there is no correlation between porn and "harm." NONE! While the US might be as violent as ever and as racist as ever, no studies have been done supporting the claim that "porn" is to blame. As a professor, the author should do his homework a bit more.

Pornography is one of the fields where women make more $$$ than men and in fact have more leverage. Porn companies bank off of the image of their (female) stars, not their men, hence why men in (straight) porn are (typically) not featured on the box and are but a cock in the film. If feminists should be arguing anything, it's that pornography dehumanizes/depersonalizes men in its portrayal of the actors in straight porn (which is an important distinction because gay porn has a whole other host of issues which are beyond the scope of these comments).

I say decriminalize porn today and grow up! Isn't it time we left the 18th century alone and entered the 21st?

PS- Who knew alternet had so many prudes!?! Wow, if these voices reflect the "progressive", then let me be somewhere else.

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Mr. Jensen, who writes hazy articles that circle the periphery of his subject - something to do with sex - doesn't promote his cause, whatever it may be, by further confusing the reader with puzzling sentences. i.e.,"no one conflates McDonald's with food;".... Perhaps he has never looked up the meaning of the word "conflate".

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:)

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The foundation of our liberty rests on the ability of consenting adults to make decisions for their lives without government censorship. So long as there is no direct harm to others, disgusting and vile free speech, including pornography, is the price we all have to pay. Keep in mind, there is an emerging "Leave-Us-Alone Coalition" of property owners, anti-tax activists, gun owners, home- and private-schoolers, small business owners, religious conservatives, and libertarians who want the government to stop interfering in their lives.

The best form of censorship is self-censorship. With respect to consenting adults, the rest is tyranny.

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As a male, I am not OK with the pornography industry. As a male I feel it exploits men and women- more so with women- because it takes away the humanness of the individuals and condenses it down all the way to a meaningless sex act. There is no love, caring, or affection for the other person. If porn focused more on sex and tying it into meaningful committed relationships then I think the majority of men who use/look at porn (and a small number of women too) would walk away with healthy attitudes and ideas of sex. This is the disconnect we tend to forget about the majority of today's porn.

The other think I'm not OK with is the explotation of men's and women's gentials. IHMO, that's not what meaningful sex is about. To perpetuate this in today's adult's entertainment industry continues to foster the unhealthy attitudes and views around sex.

I'm concerned because developing young boys go through life with these mixed signals about sex and many of them will be exposed to pornongraphy (willingly and unwillingly) at a VERY VERY young age and can be difficult to develop the right ideas of sex all along: That sex is not about satisfying physical attraction. IMHO that's a lost cause. Sex is about a meaningful expression and a sharing of care and trust in a relationship.

Young boys and men need to develop healthy attitudes around sex and porn distorts healthy views of it. This has detrimental effects on their development in the long run and it's time to face it and unlearn these ideas most young men & boys grow up with.

Perhaps this is one of the goals Robert Jensen would like to convey. If so, then count me in. Perhaps other men should join too.

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As with say food, or anything one consumes by paying for (thus supporting), know your source. If you purchase porn from a distrubutor, try and make contact with the people involved in production. Don't rely on automated emails, unsubstantiated claims or big sites dedicated to the $$. Small scale operations tend to be better (and better quality anyway). This is if you must use porn; healthy individuals should avoid it completely, but I understand if one feels the need to use it every now and then. Too much repression of ones sexual drives is a very bad idea.

On a side note; I know of "porn" producers who make some pretty disturbing films but the conditions are good, hell, terrific for the female models involved. Some of these producers have been harrassed, hell had their lives near ruined because of irrational, unsubstantiated claims of abuse (google Dr. Don, for one example). That is just plain wrong. If people think that fantasy violence against women in films correlates with real world violence against women, they need to present some evidence. So far, I've never seen anythng other than opinions on the matter.

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I got the title backwards. It is An American Addiction: Drugs,
Guerillas and Counter-insurgencey: Noam Chomsky

A Nation Under The Influence: America's Addicition to Alcohol
J. Vincent Petersen

behappy+free.com America's Addiction

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It seems many of you don't understand one of the many feminist views of porn.

Personally, I agree there ahould be porn, I like porn very much myself. The issue is the depiction of human beings.

The women are made to look "perfect," this is a huge issue. The men usually have very large penis's.

The woman is usually acting in a way that is showing she is much lower than the man and he can do whatever he wants with her, while she moans and arches her back like she loves the idea of a man fucking her and then taking it out and cumming all over her face. These depictions of sex are... unrealistic. Much of the mainstream porn people see is done in a way many of us would never consider when it comes to sex.

The other main issue for feminists is the pay. There are many business men who supply this porn to people and gain tons of profits, but very little of it goes to the actual women in the porn. Yes, some of them truely enjoy their job and the pay doesn't matter, but some of them take the job due to a lack of options, or they don't realize how little they are about to make.

The issues aren't the viewing of porn or anyting like that. If porn was real women, of all shapes and sizes. If these women appeared to be engaging in a choice during the sex. IF there weren't racial stereotypes. If the men actually had penis's that were closer to the average size, then feminists wouldn't have such an issue.

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Wow, I went to being called a "N" Lover by white conservatives and I am a racist here.
BTW: My work environment everybody has a Masters or Better. I love and resepct my colleagues. Mabe this dialogue is "out of bounds" but its out there. What I was trying to address is the "we's so busy we can't live" attitude I see among many established so called "successful professionals"
I suppose the problem with men and I include myself is the expectation of sex. We have no right to expect it upon request but biologially the drive is there!
Men are programmed to procratiate. Women are programmed to nuture. I suppose this phomenom kept going for thousands of years. is one "bad" Is one 'good" I dont think so . its a yen-yang thing I suppose.

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If anyone has ever read the bible for the book that it is, you'll see where the orgins of pornography orignated from. The violence and discrimination against women has been going on ever since before and after this book has been introduced. The bible just gave man more ideas to discriminate and justify violence against women. There are so many passages about twosomes, prostitution, incest, discrimination against women, and wife swapping, who need to rent a porno movie? And you'll never hear these passages discussed in the church except for that tired story about Sodom.

As long as people allow someone cherry pick and interpet the passages in the bible to be literal to them and force those passages onto the masses, with a hefty dose of fear and shame, and not realize it is not by nature to suppress sexual desires just because someone told you so, crimes (take your pick of which one) are going to be committed because the suppression has turned into aggression, whether it is psycological or physical.

The powers that be knows this and that's why we have the prison industry that is bigger than any other country, developed or under developed, in the world.

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As Scalia (not usually my favorite judge!) says, what was the intent of the founding fathers? Freedom of speech, as they conceived it, meant the expression of political content, broadly defined -- ideas, complaints about the government, philosophies of life, ruminations on the meaning of it all.

In that sense, pornography is not speech, not even close. Courts have erred in extending the umbrella of speech to cover porn, which is really little more than an addictive drug that works by stimulating parts of our lizard brain. Like most addictive drugs, it harms most people who fall under its sway. I think it is particularly harmful when kids see porn's typically degraded version of sex before they have had the chance to experience the joy and sensuality of real sex.

In the name of freedom, we should probably let adults who can't seem to look away have as much of it as they want (poor saps), but we should regulate the hell out of it to keep it away from minors. Sure, these regulations will be challenged on free speech grounds, but force the courts to face the issue over and over again until start to differentiate between pornography and speech.

Oh, and don't start that slippery slope nonsense.... Living in the real world requires defining terms and drawing sensible distinctions.

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This article struck me as lacking any substance, all the while making unfounded and un-argued claims (much as it has struck others in the comments posted on this article). At first glance this article fails miserably in accomplishing its stated goal to "confront the issue of pornography more openly." But taking a second look I almost think this goal has been reached very successfully and on a very small scale. While the author fails to present any substance or thought provoking commentary, the comments posted do seem to reach this goal in my view. I am left disappointed in Alternet for featuring such an empty article but proud of their readers. Then again… was this reader reaction somehow the true goal of the article?? It’s very unlikely but would be a genius project if true.

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Sorry if someone in a sub-comment I didn't read already commented on these two aspects of the situation:

1) The most pornified cultures on the planet are the most feminized; the most traditional - dare I say 'patriarchal' - are the ones where you'll find the least porn, no Anna Nicole's getting death-of-a-president coverage on all three cable news networks, etc.

So, naturally, many feminist types such as the author want more power for feminism. Great idea. Sheesh.

2) I can't believe how blind the author seems to be to the extent to which virtually almost all the stuff in the mainstream media caters to women in exactly the same way porn caters to men.

I'm talking about all of daytime TV from the morning non-news shows to The View to Dr. Phil, and including all the man-as-bozo and bale-bashing sitcoms, and I wouldn't want to forget all the nightime soaps. The word 'porn' might not be the right word to use for it, but why isn't Oprah and Entertainment Tonight kept under the counter and out of sight of those under eighteen, especially if this is such a male-dominated hell?

Maybe if they put something on TV that men wanted to watch... oh, forget it, it makes too much sense.

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I have a very active sex life and I enjoy sex with numerous partners.

I think it is downright hilarious she links white supremacy with the porn industry! She needs to look at the statistics.

The FASTEST growing area of adult film is interracial - black men & white women specifically. There is a huge demand for this type of genre - and it earns millions per year.

If anything, this genre has opened up new doors for interracial relationships. Never before would society accept the strong sexuality of a black man having sex with a white female, or a white married female. There are hundreds of sites like this, I know because I run one.

If you have seen what I have seen this author has no clue how the adult industry is operated and the author has no clue how open the industry is. Especially when it comes down to interracial sex.

I would post links but I would imagine that would get this post deleted.

Since when is censorship good?

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A recent study has shown that an increase in adult movies has decreased violence and rape.

The reason why: people stay at home and release their desires rather than going out and forcing those "desires" upon others.

http://www.slate.com/id/2152487/fr/rss/

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061030/152445.shtml

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People seem to forget that morals differ with each individual. What is offensive to one may not be to another. Religious and special interest people want to control what everyone sees and does because if they think it is offensive then by god everyone else should too. If you want to live in a bubble inside your cute little suburban cookie-cutter house the rest of your life, then fuckin do it but don't you dare tell me what I can or cannot watch. I'll flash you a crotch shot just to see the horrified look on your prudish faces.

Once again Alternet is focusing on shit that doesn't really matter. This kinda shit is all the dems will do with control. Push a bunch of bullshit that doesn't change any of the real problems. Just trying to make us think they're accomplishing something. Dangling a distraction in front of you while they're fuckin you from behind.

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I don't want to contribute to the negative tone of this debate, but it seems there is no commenting on this issue without fanning the flames of war. I think of porn the way I view music. There's the great CDs by Lennon, The Clash, etc., then there's the garbage, e.g. 95% of what is on the music video channels (plus the music in most porn..now THAT is offensive). Whether porn is demeaning to women is an endless debate. The arguement that it is racist completely escapes me. Several people at work who are not caucasions openly discuss how much they love porn.

Most porn is silly role playing, such as the express-mail delivery person. Most S & M porn is also based on consensual acts and role play, though it is commonly misunderstood. Anything outside those parameters, such as similated coercion, is ridiculous. Most people you may talk to about their tastes in porn will tell you that they watch it as a release, not to trigger turning into Rambo.

The old assertion that porn created serial-killer Ted Bundy is absurd. It's like saying he drank chocolate milk, so that dairy product causes hatred and violence against women. Bundy was a hateful psychopath and would have killed if he had watched cartoons or religious tv all day. I never met a person in my life who felt like harming or even rough-housing after viewing porn. The response of people who are not psychopaths is usually to either want to masturbate or to engage is sex with a consensual partner. That crosses racial, gender and sexual-orientation lines.

The porn debate almost always seems to reflect a greater agenda. The arguements against it from conservatives reflect their greater plans for censorship and repression. Plus, they are total hypocrites, posing a Puritans and being as sexual as anyone else. The argument that it is trap for naive women who become chained prisoners in the basement of a haunted dungeon is one that should be reassessed. After meeting Annie Sprinkle, Nina Hartley, Susie Bright, Dr. Susan Block and many others who are less known, I cannot believe for a moment that they are mindless dupes or tools of the patriarchy or whatever.

If you don't like porn or if you think it's an obstacle in the foreward progress of women, Santa bless you. If you do like it, please don't let the fears of the anti-porn people become true- work out your issues - get therapy to deal with any impulses towards war/ hate crimes/ gender violence. Everybody: aren't there masters of war, government, corporate land, theocracy, etc. who are truly deserving of our aggressions?

Rev. Bookburn

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Obscene woodcuts, smoking-room stories, Fanny Hill, etc. People like to get off.

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I have a wide experience watching and reading all kinds of pornography - and some of it is totally misogynystic while some of it isn't. I mean there are fetishes for whatever kink you are into. If sheep smoking cigarettes wearing thigh-high bitch boots fucking you in the ass with a strap-on is what gets you off - then there is probably a website devoted just for you. Thank god for the Internet! On the really dark side - some people get turned on by watching small animals get crushed to death by women wearing stillettos. Are those misogynystic? What is that? I mean - should we be grateful that sites like that exist now so that the people who are going to them are not out practicing to be serial killers?

I've also read Buffy fan fic porn by one particular online author who I will not name where every male character is castrated or in some way horribly mutilated by the end of the fic. What's going on there? I've seen gay pornos where some man is triple-penetrated and sodomized by a variety of instruments. There is a whole sub-genre of porn devoted to women humiliating and defiling there male partner - and a lot of men are really into that. There is just as much porn in the porn universe which degrades men as there is porn which degrades women.

The author is never clear about what kind of porn he finds degrading towards women, and the Internet offers such a vast spectrum of porn to choose from that it's really hard to have a discussion about this.

I mean - I suppose you can see a reflection of what is going on in society and what society is really all about in the choices people have in the type of porn they watch. If the reflection is maybe not as beautiful as we would like it (is in fact downright hideous and scary at times), then what is wrong with that?

If women/men are being exploited and abused in the production of porn - then that would be a useful conversation to have, because the industry appears to be highly unregulated. But this open-ended type of discussion where the topic of what is being discussed is vaguely defined is just pointless and stupid.

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I like Robert Jensen, but he's lost me here. Far more serious issues exist presently. Porn is simply a symptom more than a cause. It's sad that this is all such a war. Sad that our culture is so messed up, but my deeper sadness comes from these flailing attempts to fix it. We are only talking symptoms here. When we deal with porn, like war, are we really addressing society's illness, or just adding to illness by placing labels on others, giving ourselves personal sanctimony?

I consider myself very left. Very active on the root cause of disparity of rich and poor, aware of the root cause of war and environment destruction, enlightened on gender. I've been a vegetarian over half my life. I try not to buy crap, not to be crap, and try to build a better place.

But in activism I've witnessed something never mentioned. No matter how I try, I'm still a "worthless man" to many feminists in their daily practice. I am never allowed to feel much of the "enlightenment, awareness, and humanity" of feminism as practiced. In life I've had more dehumanization, degradation, and real damage from "sensitive" feminists than I ever got from the porn industry.

No one from the porn industry has made me feel as dirty or bad as fellow activists, who dismiss, ignore me, or disdain me for simply being a man. No one in porn abandoned me like my Mom and a handful of girls who decided surgical removal from males was the best way to practice love, family or advanced human values.

No one from the porn industry ever kept me from a home, a job, or relationship, simply for being a man. I hear talk of a it being a white man's world, but have never had undue respect, no special concern for my life, yet I'm turned away by the other gender and races who are very openly catered to, with claims that this is somehow more fair. A 1000 years of my gender misusing its dominance must be balanced on my life by others misusing dominance.

One odd example, an activist love who decided it was a more meaningful, politically correct relationship with a dirty mean biker dyke. She's degraded and willingly treated trashy in an empty and nearly nonverbal pairing, but it's all supposedly much better than a man because they do it with strap-ons. Anything evil is projected on men, yet taking on their macho trappings is somehow good.

Another example is a small peace group destroyed by a pair of women blustering more macho aggressive than any of the men. Similar activity by men would be called bullying. I have seen retreats and activist music co-ops where no men were allowed, nor treated friendly. And the music suffers.

Another example was a recent fine relationship nearly ended when she found a porn url. I think my Iraq files are far more a sign of "who I am" and more disgusting. No, they don't turn me on. I know everything in life is not about my getting off, though that's the dominant summation on men presently. No one in the porn industry ever brought that level of needless shame and humiliation into my day.

I'm not damaged by these, and other, examples. I won't join Robert and his wounded pals in fireside male fests covered in mud, grief or shame. But I'm not willing to concede feminist ideas, as practiced, is the way to a better society. I simply try hard out there to deal with everyone with no preconceptions or damnation. I do effective work with who I can, and just choke it down when I am dismissed or denigrated for simply being male. Would that others, particular "enlightened and sensitive" feminists, could some day do the same.

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To separate wheat from chaff on this issue, we might want to give those most experience with erotica the greatest say. One could stipulate "If you have less than X orgasms per month, you lose your right to judge how other people achieve theirs in private, consensual situations. Anything people do ALONE, in secret, in their own spare time, with their own money, in the privacy of their homes is victimless, hence none of anyone's G.D. business." Nobody is ringing my door bell asking me to join a porn club or buy Debbie Does Dallas DVDs. If feminists, guilt-ridden Xtians and bluenosed moralists want to deny themselves the pleasure of the flesh, their loss, but don't confuse that choice with moral authority. There are far more instances of people who repress their sexuality turning sadistic, violent or pathological, evidence by our fearless leaders. Give me a leader who has genitals and knows how to use them instead of a dried up sliver of a human pretending to hear personal conversations from a vengeful god.

As to the "harm" porn does, there are laws on the books already about exploitation of minors, spam, age verification, etc. ENFORCE existing laws and porn will stay neatly in the plain brown wrapper. Wish could be said about the plethora of sadistic, tortuous slasher films that show many creative ways to maim torture and inflect bodily damage on other humans. Any 12 year old can buy a ticket to see mainstream Hollywood fare involving disembowlment, mutilation, cannibalism, burning alive, electrocution and vivisection. No one seems to complain about the numbing, dissociative effects of violence in our society today.

Why focus on the physical act via which every one of us were conceived? While you're getting worked up about bumping uglies, another 30,000 jobs were outsourced overseas, more kids are dying in an illegal war. Saudi Arabia and China just bought billions more of our national debt and 10,000 families lost healthcare insurance. This issue is deck chairs on the Titanic people. Get a clue.

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...I have found a great need of...porn...more than I ever could have imagined....never found the need to use porn much before....but it is now overwhelming...I am so hot and about to explode...so could you, would you PLEASE post your favorite sites and help a guy out?

But none of that GITMO stuff endorsed by the Shrub and Shootmeinthe Face.

Tried all of that because I thought is was more mainstream (normal, acceptable?), and inline with the “Family Values” crowd I have always looked up to and modeled my life after... but, alas, had come to the conclusion that Republican style sex (porn?) was not for me…not that there is anything wrong with it. It is just not my style.

So could you please help a guy out...and post your favorite stuff (sites) and/or what you think would be appropriate for this great Amerikkkan society? All in the name of research, of course.

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I love the sight of beautiful naked women. The only things that compare are natural vistas, some plant and animal life. There is nothing I've ever see mankind make that compares in beauty to nature. I do not get sexually aroused by nature other than women so I figure I'm somewhat normal.

I do not enjoy seeing women abused, dominated, or any other such stuff but I bet alot of the women making porn do not mind some of the stuff being done to them that I find disgusting. That's their choice just as it is my choice to avoid it.

If it is consensual and no one is intentionally hurt. what the hell is so bad about it?

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I think regular TV is more damaging than pornography. I mean, how many women to do you know who imitate what women in porn do? One? None? But the way women act on TV, such as music videos? Every other teenaged girl in the country has a video on YouTube shaking her ass for the camera. And as long as they don't let a nipple show, the censors consider it kosher.

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Oh, I have thought about and discussed this topic for over 30 years. I have been trying to define pornography for as long. Pornography is bad or good or somewhere in between, depending upon the definition and how someone feels about the definition. I think no one agrees universally on what Pornography is, so we have a hard time discussing it. If we can discuss what is and is not acceptable, without assigning a particular pornography label, then maybe we can get to the "heart" of the matter. For example: it is not OK to degrade people. It is not OK to be cruel. It is not OK to kill people for sport. It is not OK to hurt people for sport, unless both parties freely accept that this is what they are going to do, and they are equally matched and paid. This much I can say for certain: I do believe much of our current U.S. society is interested in immediate gratification, is violent, cruel and OK with the degradation of "others", so the current "sexual pornography" reflects that. If we want to see less cruelty, violence and degradation directed towards women, and humans in general, we need to get busy and change ourselves.

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I always find it amusing that any discussion of the "sexism" of porn always always ALWAYS needs to studiously ignore the enormous amount of gay porn out there.

Criticising that stuff would be homophobic and therefore a big no-no to us progressive types.

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PART 1: My we touched a nerve bundle! Wow, so many ways to tackle this....
[THE SUN & THE MOON: Men's sexuality (gay, straight) is generally like the sun-- it rises everyday regardless of the weather (testosterone or not). Women tend to have a more nuanced, monthly, less obvious / less daily experience. W'n have a time of the month, men a time (or times) of the day. (It's wisely said that generally men cuddle to fuck, and w'n fuck to cuddle). Way it is folks -- we need compassion for gender and pesonality differences re: sexual experience and preference. Men want and need and think about sex all day every day -- an evolutionary "readiness" to impregnate the moody, infrequently fertile female when the egg drops monthly. Recall that humans of yore died in their 20's and 30's if not as infants, and an average successful surviving 30-something was a grandparent of as many fertile fucks (i.e. kids and their kids) which survived childhood as the clan was capable of. I only partly sympathize with the man in the first post who wants women to 'put out' more (he's naturally born daily hornier than most women);[incidentally, I also don't know where to get my sexual needs met in the 'real world' of people, as bars and average folks boor me] We face an ancient evolutionary sexual imperative complicated by a vastly different modern social condition]

The article at best wished to address the spectre of TOXIC, COMMERCIAL porn and the common, formula "standards" (misogny, racism, domination) disseminated within it... and the author's effort to alert disinterested liberal activists.
(1st, in the interest of diclosure, i grew up a staight white guy and i love amateur voyeur-porn, hate the misogynistic formula stuff. It's so hard to find video of real women enjoying real pleasure (try thefemaleorgasm dot com, etc.), but it's somewhere out there. I also think porn should be free like youtube (i have actually found a network of free clips. but again the careless misog. language and attitude pollutes the well making searches difficult).

TERMS: posters wonder at the def. of porn. vs. erotica etc. Adjectives in the article and here are important; the author eventually says "TOXIC" porn and tackles the commercial porn industry and it's attitudes. I have seen plenty enough (but..NOT enough!) of video porn where respect, fun, choice, and mutual pleasure is evident... let's call it healthy porn; real folks enjoying giving real pleasure to eachother or themselves. Porn comes in all stripes and flavors, serving all tastes and fantasies. (staight, gay, bi, tranny, inter-racial, dom/sub, fetish...it's bottomless) ANYBODY(especially kneejerk "feminists" and religious fundies) who broad-brush anything so diverse and complicated as "porn" with a negative assumption and caricature undercut their credibility in the discussion. (Show me your negative mysoginistic porn, and I'll show you the minority exception --- choose to watch or not). Commercial culture and industry do drive the flavor and typical formula that is polluting the erotic ("stupid bitch receiving facial", anyone? ) The industry is like most industry, run by aggressive profiteering men, a minority who stamp their culture/tastes/assumptions/attitudes on the flavor of the output --- which then meets the consumer who may have a similar poor taste in human behavior/products (or, an unformed taste deformed by the commercial style). Provider and consumer self-reinforce, creating horrible culture. I do think unscrupulous guys do get polluted by their lazy consumption (especially damaging to adolescents and young guys still forming their character and tastes), and it does become a vicious self-reinforcing culture that in it's worst commercial formula does horribly demean women and sexuality ... my only solution being I don't personally like or pay for that style of porn (i.e. i am pro-choice). [Please see PART 2 for exciting conclusions!!!]

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[This is PART 2 --- please read previous PART 1 first]
I'm a straight guy who loves seeing video of real women enjoying themselves -- whether masturbation or enjoying giving their lover pleasure or whatever. I have never liked nor understood porn or relationships where mutual pleasure and respect is not the standard. So please everyone watch your adjectives as you watch (or not ) your porn, and first define the style, taste, source, and target consumer (i.e. commercial vs. grassroots/amateur/indie; mysoginstic vs. mutual; straight vs. all the other kinks/styles, etc.)) before spreading knee-jerk reactionary diatribes and 'solutions' .... broadbrushing all erotic video as "porn" (i.e. negative) is ludicrous. Both the creator and the consumer have choice and responsilbilty. (Although there is porn addiction along with all other compulsions, kneejerk labeling and reactionary crusades are useless.)

In summary: 1) men and women have always had diferent sex drives, so we can have compassion and 'humor' eachother w/out repression, deprecation, nonconsensual domination or mysogyny. 2) Discussing pornography needs lots of adjectives and qualifiers, identifying the specific style, source, content, and consumer before broadbrush criticisms and crusades are called for. 3) There is some minority of folks like me who worship female pleasure and mutual, consensual enjoyment --- and no knee jerk "-ism" (feminist, religious, etc.) will prevent or successfully argue against the freedom of consenting adults to film and watch yummy sexual times between real people who enjoy themselves.

Now what should really be commented on or written about is where/how people can find/create/post/share/evolve the best of consensual, healthy, fun, mutually orgasmic video... all the readers and commenters and authors here could brainstorm an alternative, sex-positive porn to counter the crude, typical, pernicious, mysogyistic commercial crap that is admittedly polluting the well and warping lazy-men's (and.. reactionary "feminist's" ) perception of what sexuality and video erotica can be (and of course demeaning or exploiting women models)....THE SOLUTION IF THERE IS ONE IS TO OUT-PORN THE COMMERCIAL PORN -- CALL IT "COUNTER-PORNAGAGANDA" (TO COIN A TERM) --- THAT IS, CREATE A YUMMY HEALTHY COUNTER-PORN/ALTERNA-PORN REVOLUTION THAT IS REAL, IRRESISTABLE, AND FREE ... FREE FOR THE CONSUMER, AND FREE OF THE MISOGYNY, RACISM, EXPLOITATION. IN OTHER WORDS, WE NEED MORE PORN NOT LESS!!!!! (as in, during a 'time of war' do we restrict free speech or do we need more free speech, not less?)

What would be YOUR vison of ideal/healthy/yummy porn? Have you found it -- can you describe or share it? Can you create it? Whether we have relaible sex partners or not, erotica and porn and fantasy and voyeurism are here to stay (have always been here --- in our heads at least). We need to make and spread a better alternative cultural product, not create yet another silly crusade of repression and broadbrush reactionary judgements. VIVA LA BON PORN !!!!!!!

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Published on Sunday, February 11, 2007 by the San Francisco Chronicle
Privacy or Protection?
Loss of privacy threatens civilization

by Bob Barr

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Question: Is there a man out there who can actually raise his hand and affirm that watching porn has forced him (or even inspired him) to:

1. Outwardly:
a. commit a violent act?
b. commit a racist act?
c. treat his female co-workers worse in some way or to some degree?
or
2. Inwardly:
a. love his partner less?
b. feel negative emotions about females in his life/work environment?

I just think someone needs to actually ask the question of men, and we might want to consider the response, if any is posted.

When I see porn on the internet, if it excites me and I'm not able to get with my girlfriend I feel a kind of suffering; a longing for physical contact, and it is not pleasant, although sometimes it is, I guess. But it never motives me to rape anyone, or fantasize about raping anyone. Nor does it make me love my g/f (or women in general) less.

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umm... according to whose definition?

this is where this rediculous article lost me.

exempting porn from free speech is like exempting torture from human rights

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Some say one should only speak from experience. My first experience with "porn" was my discovery of my uncle's Playboy magazines when I was very young. Results? Nothing positive, and too many negative results to list. I loved them, though, of course, and the imitators, and the escalations contained thereof. Later, the next step up, was the movie, "Deep Throat", which I saw at a drive-in theater in the early seventies, in Lynchburg, VA., a very conservative area. Back then, sexual liberation was peaking, and censorship laws were pretty lax. Once again, my "world view" was affected negatively, though I didn't think so at the time. Several years later, while living in Manhattan, I stepped into a live sex show, and watched a couple "do it" on a proscenium stage. Then a movie was shown where a man seemed to "snuff" a woman by stuffing a toilet plunger, handle first, up her vagina. I didn't go back! Later, while living in Chicago, I became hooked on stopping at Adult bookstores and masturbating to the quarter videos. John Holmes was at his peak. I loved seeing him subject a woman to the point where she would do anything... My wife got the benefit of some of those lessons. Somehow I left that behind after a couple years, but became fond of anal videos I could rent and bring home. I found women who could and would do what I found on those videos. When I married a second time, here in Arkansas, I had "grown out" of all that, especially since my new wife expressed extreme distaste for men who viewed porn. Presently, however, I introduced her to porn as an aphrodisiac of sorts, and it worked. I occasionally put an old video in the machine as a form of foreplay, you might say. It worked. And time went on... Last year, while looking for family photos of a grandchild on my wife's PC, I stumbled upon a list of porn titles, touched one with the cursor, and there was my wife lying there, performing, with a "friend". As it turns out, they had become addicted to doing it in front of the web cam, with the big screen TV close by, and playing it over to be able to go again. They were also posting clips on the internet, in competitions, and just for fun. Terrifically compelling, the allure of exhibitionism, voyeurism, narcissism, and co-masturbation, in their case. At this moment, I am watching an episode of "Brothers and Sisters" on TV. Everyone is sleeping around, and Sally Fields character is busted smoking pot. The problem is not the different forms of media available. The problem is a lack of values, and concern for others. I look back over my life, and see where my lack of values and consideration for others have damaged other lives. I had to be honest with myself, and revert back to values I learned as a child from my father and mother. I lived a life life Faust, and paid for it. Others will have to learn the same, on their own. We cannot legislate morality, or ethics. I have viewed lots of smart comments concerning this article. I agree with a wide range of folks, from Elderwoman to MartianBachelor. Ultimately, we all have to learn on our own, and porn will be with us all the way.

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From a male's point-of-view, pornography (that is NON-violent porn, which is the majority) simply depicts sexually available women. It's male escapism. It's a release. It's the quickest point from A-to-B, without having to jump through all the 'dating' & 'courting' hoops - when all he wants is to 'get off'.

Women should not feel any more threatened by porn, than a man should over women's porn. (ie. Shopping).

Parenthetically - I've heard it said somewhere that "women should be required to watch porn. If we're going to pay for it, they may as well be good at it."

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There is definitely porn that exploits men, women, children and even animals. There is also porn that is clearly abusive, and at its extreme, homicidal, (i.e. "snuff films.")

But there is porn where nobody gets hurt. I've known guys who did gay porn because they wanted to. They had fun and it made them feel good that they might bring someone pleasure. I've personally known people who have done spanking films because they enjoyed it and had no inhibitions about getting spanked on film.

There is abusive porn without a doubt, but not all porn is that way. Also, many people who bad-mouth porn are total hypocrites who use the stuff on a regular basis.

We need to protect people from abuse all around the world, which is likely impossible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work hard to reduce it as much as possible.

But I disagree with any argument that lumps all porn into a single category. Like most things in this world, it's a varied and complex topic. It cannot be fully defined by an article, a magazine, a single book or even a single conference.

It's an ongoing, active discussion.

But that would take a progressive, mature and uninhibited view of sex. Kinsey tried to teach us how to address these topics and encourage a healthy sexual lifestyle, and 50 years later we have George W. Bush and Focus On The Family.

We either don’t want to learn, or like most things in America, we don't want to take responsibility for our actions, thoughts and discussions. "Fuck" is not the "dirtiest" word in America, "Responsibility" is.

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Males reach their sexual peak at age 17. A female of the same age who has a baby and breastfeeds that baby has almost NO chance of EVER getting breast cancer. (It is true..and most Feminists know it as well...ask your doctor.)

Clearly humans are by nature supposed to have sex...which normally leads to babies...EARLY in life. Now enter the complex American society of today.

Ideally...no babies until after college...and then grad school and a few years to get started...a good job, cars, school loans...so we are now looking at age 30 for a marriage and kids....what are young people suppose to do?
Wait 13 years to have sex?
And is life -long marriage even a reality anymore?

Then there is all the sexual disease of today...it is not safe or healthy to just get on the pill and have a bunch of casual affairs...and is that much of a life anyway?
What are we teaching our young people? What are they supposed to DO?

I would rather my young sons watch dirty movies than have sex with a young girlfriend...even if they do love each other and she IS on the pill......what is the alternative?

We have so many HORRID problems today... war, poverty, environmental pollution, overpopulation, rape and child abuse...that I just cannot see porn movies as a serious problem.

Maybe Feminists should take over the porn industry.
Create GOOD porn. Perhaps it is simply a question of artistic quality.
Why not create porn movies showing beautiful, intelligent, creative, independent young women in loving -caring-equal-relationships? Show young men what kind of women they really should sexually desire?

And the money can be used -for social progress.
Maybe the solution is once again--- in the problem itself.

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[***please see my two "sun and moon" posts above for more in depth commentary and propositions***]

Blade, thanks for sharing your tortuous experience. I feel your sincerity and appreciate your honesty and concerns. I have to gently chide you for ignoring so much of what pro-porn critics are saying here: there are different types of porn, different types of porn consumers, with different reactions and life outcomes. I love 'healthy porn' -- that is, i specifically love video showing women, real women enjoying real pleasure... along with women happily giving real pleasure to loevers with no domination or demeaning flavor. (I also can't prevent others from liking other styles of porn, even if it's that typical, fake mysogynistic shit dominated by So. California) I find it tragic and amusing that some anti-porn people (most?) keep focusing on the shadow side and pretend all porn is all that, and all outcomes are negative or abusive. It simply isn't so. I think appreciating a woman's pleasure IS a value, appreciating your own pleasure IS a value, whether i can experience that in person with a lover/partner, or vicarously thru erotica and porn. Blade, your experience is valuable and particular to YOUR situation, and those others of a similar path. I am glad you share it as a warning of the shadow side or life-off-the-rails (without values you say). You can't, however, successfully argue with me that other people watching porn are following the same extremes you endured... or watched the same type of media for the same reasons with the same outcome. Again, porn is personal and diverse, and there is lovely, yummy erotica documenting or imagining people enjoying themselves.... that it exists and is enjoyed or consumed or made does not condemn it all because you had a bad period with it's more extreme reaches. Can there be real, honest, sexy, nonabusive porn "with values"? I know so, for sure man. Depends on who you are and what you like and how you behave..... if i had money i would set up a porn YOUTUBE, allowing consenting adults to freely swap their erotic experiences and fantasies.... i just don't understand the anti-porn folks labeling everything negative and abusive. It simply isn't. (although we can agree the dominant industry and the male-centered mysognist formual/bias is real and unfortunate). Your points about values and lack of concern for others sound good, but they simply don't apply to all of porn/erotica and those who make and enjoy it. I say, argue for better porn!! Visualize and create great porn, healthy respectful mutual-pleasure porn!! Not just "say NO to porn". DO you say no to food because McDonalds is bad??? Male bodies will love sex and porn, so we should design alterna-porn. SOme already have (mostly amateur/voyeur vids, homemade stuff, and women enjoying toys... there's simply no abuse or mysogyny or egads racism there... please now people be real !!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Thanks again for posting.

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Damn people if one thing is for certain this topic has brought out enough analytical crazy f*&&( than i have ever seen. I think this does outline a problem that a lot of people are not willing to face. Porn is degrading to women and racist theirs no arguing about that. But at the same time a lot of porn isn't as bad. Its all about filtering through whats out there. When most of the sites involving black males are called "19inches or bigger" or "gang bangers" all thats being helped is the stereotypes. I encourage you to look at a free porn site and just check out the variety of links available, different strokes for different folks. The interesting thing is all the hardcore S&M sites show videos of the couples at the end saying how they felt afterwards. You don't get that at "Wrong side of Town"

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Don't forget the powerful attraction that TRANSGRESSION itself has in eroticism. Anything that is denied, whether it's a a glimpse of a white-stockinged ankle or sex with a 6-year-old, assumes much more power than that which is allowed. Used to be the doggie position was perverted.

Issues of cruelty and bigotry become sexually charged BECAUSE they are "bad things."

Once upon a time sneaking a cigarette was nasty and thrilling. Riding in a car alone with a man you weren't married to was shameful, sinful, and thrilling. Oral sex was once "nasty and perverted" and thrilling; frankly, since it's become totally normal it's also become less fun by a degree or so.

Probably the only way to make cruelty and bigotry less attractively transgressive is to allow it, to make it normal. Of course I don't advocate going there, but until you make transgression itself less attractive, which is practically impossible as breaking rules is how Americans like to do it, the thrill of doing bad things will rule. We lionize rule-breakers across the board; there isn't anything quite so heroically American as someone who knows no law but his or her own. When they do bad things, it's THRILLING.

We only want rules so that we can break them. Pointing out that some sex is cruel, exploitative, and bigoted will get a response from some people to the effect of, "That's why I like it."

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This "article" said very little to prove its point. It states that pornography is "misogynistic and racist" but gives no examples or explanation of this. Maybe it assumes that we all watch so much modern porn that we know exactly what the author is talking about. It also doesn't address how to solve the problem: how to clean up porn or do away with it all together without censorship or seeming anti-sexual. I would really like to know how they plan to work that one out. Stating a problem without proposing a solution is really pretty pointless. It's like me saying "I think we should solve world hunger and all live in peace, OK?"

And isn't it curious that the articles that get the biggest and most emotion responses on this forum are the ones dealing with sexuality?

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There was a point to the article? See my "Superficial" post below.

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and I am not talking about the abundance of it in the media.
I am married with a child and have spoken to a number of my friends about this issue in a round about way.
Just about everyone of my friends that are married have complained at least once to me that their wives hardly ever want to have sex anymore. Therefore they turn to other means of satisfying thier urges, wether it is masturbation or cheating. In the case of masturbation alot of them use porn as an aid to achieve this and I do not see how this is wrong since the woman in their life refuses to fullfill the needs of the husband. I am not saying the wife should be ready to go on a moments notice but men have needs and it is not fair for a woman to expect them to go without just because they have reached a point where it is no longer something they want.
As far as cheating is concerned I do not think it is right, but in cases where the couple have not been together for long periods of time because the wife keeps refusing what do you expect to happen? Again men have needs and it is not fair to expect them to deny themselves what is natural. If a wife does not want to be with her husband she should tell him so and let him go elsewhere.
In my case I have a great wife, we weremarried 2 years ago and were together for 8 years prioir to getting married. For the 8 years prior we were together at least twice a week. After getting married it went down to about once every other week, and it was not for a lack of trying on my part. Then after my child was born we have not been together once and my wife just says that the purpose was served (meaning we had our child) and she does not feel like it. She says it like she is joking, but since I have not gotten anythng in about a year I am not so sure. I don't own porn or watch it on the internet but lately it has crossed my mind. dies that make me wrong?
Bottom line is in cases where women are not interested anymore, porn is an outlet for the man's needs, and it seems to me it is alot better then cheating.

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It's the old dilemma - who is it that decides what is "good" porn and what is "bad." The author mentions now how horrible and racist porn is - with no specifics - or what the criterion for judging porn is. So do we appoint a bunch of academics, people whose knowledge of sex is probably more theoretical than, shall we say, praxis-based? That'll work real well.

Feminists haven't made much of a dent in the world of porn - neither have religious zealots, or other moralists with an agenda. Lets face it - dirty pictures and movies are here to stay. Been around for a long time. Perhaps if the morally self-righteous wouldn't get their knickers all in a bundle about porn, then it would cease to be such a big deal. Sure a lot of it is not so appealing. So don't look at it - no one is forcing you to.

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The industry would draw a lot less heat -- and the whole subject of pornography would be less controversial -- if pornography caught up with the times.

More and more men don't want to see women demean themselves with that "Your c**k is so big" crap. That's your father's sex. As for "cum shots," they're nauseating.

Many (most?) men watch pornography simply because they want to see more naked women -- not to mention, their sexual organs -- than just their girlfriends or wives (if they're in a relationship). Also, men, unlike many women, need a sexual release on a regular timetable, rather than sporadically.

The pornography industry would do itself a favor and defuse a lot of the outrage if it played down the old-school crap and just presented naked people expressing their affection for each other.

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Reading the defences of porn consumerism here is like listening to a bunch of SUV owners denying global warming and whining about how they "need" their SUVs.

Here's a description of exactly what feminists are objecting to.

So ya gonna keep on telling us that somehow, the swaggering masculine fetishisation of (other people's) pain and humiliation that we saw at Abu Ghraib [that was made into porn snaps and photo CDs by the perps, much as many rapist/torturers make porn photos out of their victims in civilian life, much of which photo content then ends up traded and collected or distributed online] is somehow magically unrelated, totally unrelated, to the taste for misogyny and humiliation consumed in "mainstream" porn from teen years on?

To those who keep claiming "government studies prove" that porn consumption has beneficial effects on male attitudes to women -- citations please. I have ventured some into this literature and I dunno of any study that has shown any such positive correlation. Show us your footnotes.

Yeah, repeated consumption of misogynist porn combined with self-stimulation has absolutely no patterning or progranming effect on the user... and advertising doesn't work, and the Goebbels propaganda machine had nothing to do with the success of a certain rightwing political putsch in Europe 2 generations back. [Before you call Godwin Violation on me here, remember that porn was an essential element in the Goebbels propaganda effort -- sexual imagery, the cult of masculinity, and trad misogyny helped greatly to reinforce social programming in antisemitism and nationalism.]

Newsflash: propaganda works. Advertising works. Repetition of the same message for long enough, especially combined with compelling visual imagery, works to train in a desired attitude. And the desired attitude is that men are entitled to dominate and consume women, just like Americans are entitled to drive SUVs and slurp up the last of the world's oil. Go read about mirror neurons and then ask what it means for millions of men to sit transfixed for hundreds of millions of collective hours by images of women sexually servicing men, being abused by men, being exposed in vulnerable nudity to the male gaze, etc. It totally creeps me out to think that I am walking down the same streets with, riding buses with, sharing elevators with, men who have systematically trained themselves to regard women as some kind cross between a snack and a punching bag.

To those who claim to use only "the good stuff", GNUporn, stuff produced by willing exhibitionists etc., in order to fulfil this alleged need for masturbatory fantasy, I have to wonder -- don't you guys have any imagination of your own? you have to go outside yourself for an image of sexuality? geez. guess you must prefer the movie version to reading a good book, too. whatever happened to inventing one's own fantasies and images? guess it's easier to pull that frozen dinner out of the freezer than do any real cooking.

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If the demand for abusive porn is so high, why then is the porn the problem?

Seems that the approach to the problem here is kind of like throwing 800,000 citizens in jail each year for pot. Is pot the problem or is it a problem of the person the wants or needs it? Is it really a problem at all?

Prevailing attitudes and education have as much to do with what we do in the darkness as anything.

Get Americans to lose their backwards-ass approach to sex and the human body and the market for shitty porn will shrink (sorry) some what.

The folks that seem to like the kind of twisted porn that demeans the woman, the man, the race, the child, or perhaps chickens has its roots in repressed sexuality, and a lack of reality in dealing with the birds and the batsuits.

We'll always be a little kinky, but at least approach the end of the porn problem that needs addressing - the people that buy it and why.

Now back to the L Word, it was getting pretty hot.

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that a huge number of articles on topics like war, genocide and poverty go virtually uncommented on this site, while a critical article about pornography receives hundreds of impassioned responses, I think two things are pretty clear:

1. We only care about things that titillate us.
2. Lots of us are way, way, way too passionate about our porn.

I'd love to see this kind of passion in an article about minimum wage laws, but I guess since many of us don't get off to the thought of the cashier at the grocery store making a living wage, we have no personal investment in it. After all, porn is IMPORTANT and SPECIAL, while poverty - eh, who cares?

Am I right, boys, or am I right?

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This is just one of many issues where we as Americans continue to address the affects without first looking to their causes. It isn't that American men are undersexed, it is that historically, our whole society spent years pretending sex wasn't really going on until it boiled over the top. The sex trade became one of a few means women had to free themselves from the shackles of a male-dominated society, and they took to it with an almost shocking enthusiasm that continues to this day. An immodist woman has power when she takes her clothes off, and she knows it.
Wendy McElroy has written some of the best books and articles I've ever read concerning this issue.

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-to anyone who can name an industry that does not exploit people.
Instead of going after the specific grievances, we attack what we see as a conspiracy. Do we also care about who made the clothes we wear or picked the oranges we buy? The danger, is that there is a looming, bipartisan alliance between well-meaning activists and the fascist sex-police that aren't interested in the nuances. Anything to do with sex is becoming associated with violence and crime, which drives a whole lot of subjects into murky waters, where many problems are going to get WORSE.
The good news is that the Universe is a sex organ.

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if you want to live in a society where porn is illegal/banned/practically non-existent, you can always move to the middle east. :)

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Everytime I encounter one of these hetero slugfests, I am just sooooo grateful to be queer. Homo-porn has its good and bad sides, too, McD's and Colt any one? How's that for your self-esteem, Mr. Just Five? But there is a lot of homo home cookin too, good,really bad and really funny. A room full of 300 lb. Big Macs goin at it. Lots of Tina-time exploitation and bad barebacking, too. If any one in the world scrolls down this far, this is the diff: We are just not using it as another cudgel in the age old age old like you heteros.

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A previous poster wrote: "The FASTEST growing area of adult film is interracial - black men & white women specifically. There is a huge demand for this type of genre - and it earns millions per year."

Ironically this person proves my point. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand just WHY such sites are so popular. They play right into the hands of stereotyped notions of black man as exotic sexual savage. We all know the rumors about black male prowess--be it on the athletic field or in the bedroom. Whether or not we're comfortable with it, these sites merely reinforce our taste for the "big, black beast" but they also help to see black men as lesser beings who have only one thought.

I've been told by Nina Hartley (whom I've met on several occasions) that these sites are especially in the South where all it took was the 'perception' of a white woman kissing a black man to lose an election. And yet we're supposed to believe that because these sites are popular that all is right in the world?

NOT!

I've seen these sites and they all advertise the same thing--"little white chicks with big black d*cks" or some variation on the theme. I actually saw one called 'Three Mandingos and a White Woman" (no kidding). I actually find it rather hilarious that all these white women who normally are supposed to be 'afraid' of black men in real life just can't wait to get naked and get pummeled by this mythical black male penis...lol.

By the way, it is well known fact that major porn stars lose credibility/bankability when they do films with black men; just ask Jenna Jameson. White guys with small penises still run the industry overall and many of them still have size issues and fears that they cannot compete. Black male porn stars make even less money than their white male counterparts even if they're humongeously endowed (Mr. Marcus anyone)? They seldom if ever receive top billing and are basically regarded as a curiosity or an object of derision as well as prurient fascination.

As a woman in a long-term interracial relationship, where are the sites with white males having sex with black women? Trust me I've looked and there are very few. Where are the black female equivalents of the Vivid Girls? There aren't any though there are just as many gorgeous black women who could easily fit the bill. Bottom line is that porn does indeed mirror society in that only white women are considered desirable and every man--no matter his colour--wants one.

DO I expect this state of affairs to continue? Of course because racism continues. Even the supposedly "radical" Suicide Girls were overwhelmingly white and tattoed. The only thing people of color and those who want more variety and a better product can do is to create it ourselves.

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In the US people are not forced into porn. Females are attracted by wealth, fame and the usual lures. A few females may be under emotional pressure from a mate. But it is their choice to get rid of mates that try to push them around. A few may be there to support drug habits. That again is their free choice. All in all we simply have a bunch of people who later feel guilty or used when their fantasies about life as a porn star wear thin. There is no violation of anyone in these cases. Issues such as race and degradation are out of touch with the nature of porn. Some people like to be slaves or to be harshly used during sex. That is their nature. Actors and actresses simulate some of the behavior of these types of people. So what!

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Sorry, porn has been around since our ancestors learned that they could draw on the wall of a cave with charcoal. It's not going away, like it or not.

It has nothing to do with getting enough sex.

The majority of xxx videos are rented by women.

Men will always enjoy seeing attractive women naked, having sex, etc. Go figure.

Women like it too.

There is only one way to limit the amount of pornography: stop buying it.

Let me know how it goes.

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Wow, this is perhaps the most empty story I've ever seen on Alternet. Congratulations on producing something almost totally void of content.

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Our family has a long history of nudism, grandparents, parents. husband and wife and kids.
All cultures all over the world (except the USA) know the initial rites when boys and girls are about 12 years old.(Jews have BarMitwah)
The Papuas on New Guinea fucked little boys before the became warriors.
The CroMagnon caves showed little foorsteps of about 20.000 years ago, the male pictures with the erections prove what
happened during these ceremonies.


When my daughter was 13 she had her first friend at school, but we wanted to meet the family of the boy first. After that she visited the housedoctor to obtain the pill.
My son however had his first girlfriend at 18 and married the second one when he was 25 years old.

I get the impression that many American people have sexual problems,, sure is that your way of life is no good thing for the world.
So please stay in America and suffer

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Gay porn saved more lives in the 80's and 90's than all other efforts combined. It made abstinence pleasurable either alone or among men who sought sexual gratification without passing fluids. Gay porn exists in a world of its own and should not be compared to straight porn, which strikes me as rather weird. Take your political/social stances, but keep your ineffably silly hands off my Eastern European sleaze (featuring adults.)

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pornography destroys personhood
it poisons the heart and mind
until just an empty shell of a body is left

it is quick acting
addiction happens before the person is aware of it

it affects every aspect of the person's life until it has completely strangled life itself into nothingness - loss of personhood

there is hope
life and love

love=genuine self giving to another
total acceptance of each other
intimacy of heart mind and soul

no greater love does a man have than to lay down his life for his friend

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As long as sexual content is shoved off into a corner in this society and branded *nasty* we will have very little good quality erotic filming produced and released. If it is by its very nature considered *bad* and marginalized, there is no way to pressure the industry to improve it. If it is considered illegitimate to begin with, intelligent people will not be drawn to the genre. The way rabid feminists, fundamentalists, and most other anti- people approach the issue is to rant, rave, tear hair and try to abolish it--all of which simply creates further sensationalism and hyperbole, thereby exacerbating the problem instead of improving the situation.

Why we are allowed to *enjoy* truly disgusting violent images in horror films while we simultaneously deny our inherent goodness as sexual beings is--and always will be--completely beyond me!

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The writer keeps referring to "THE" Feminist perspective on porn, and "THE" feminist this and that with regard to porn. Know this, mister: there is no monolithic position on porn by "THE" feminists. There is not even a group of people who can be reffered to as "THE" feminists. You need to do some more research, bud.

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That really needed to be said, although there will always be those who don't get it. I've been a feminist since back when they were calling it "women's lib". I'm politically liberal to radical & I don't believe in censorship. The idea that sex belongs only in marriage between a man & a woman is ludicrus to me, but those who believe that, should be free to practice their belief. As long as they don't try to force that practice on anyone else.
However, I am stating that I believe the vast majority of hetrosexual porn today is demeaning, humiliating and emotionally/psychologically abusive and damaging to women .... and to the attitudes of the men who are brainwashed/habituated to getting off on the specific and pervasive themes of female subjugation & humiliation. But I'm not saying I have a "solution" to this problem.
The issue of child porn is much more clear cut. Sex with children is illegal, inarguably exploitive and damaging to the child, and so it's depiction in pornographic images is illegal, which is as it should be. The issue is "consent" & the definition of "consenting adults", reasonably easy to define.

But it becomes much more difficult when all concerned .... those producing, performing in and buying/using the "product" are all adults.
In a perfect world, there would be no demand for the kind of porn that depicts women as objects for men to use/humiliate/abuse at will, and women as accepting & even getting off on being humiliated and treated as "objects". This is obviously not a perfect world.
There have been a number of posts calling this a non-issue, a waste of time, etc. I strongly disagree. We may never get past the contradictions inherent in believing that the majority of porn is damaging to both women and men, as we struggle to find more positive ways to relate to each other, but as liberals and believers in freedom of expression, being against censorship. So what could be more positive that a good, open discussion?
My guess is that participating in this forum has opened the eyes of a number of intelligent, thoughtful men who have never before considered the *reason* why so many women, whether or not they identify themselves as feminists, object to the majority of porn. And maybe some women as well, who are sexually liberal and don't want to be mis-labled as prudish or pro-censorship but aren't really comfortable with most porn.
Discussions such as this one get people to think. And yes, this *is* an important issue, because it relates directly to the continuing prevasiveness of misogynistic attitudes toward women in our culture.

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Our friend with the first reply was somewhat misguided in his assertions - and, at the very least, a poor chooser of words. However, there is at least a small grain of truth in his arguments.

Women generally, and feminism specifically, completely fail to understand the tradeoffs and agreements made when a marriage is entered into. Women expect complete monogamy upon marriage - and rightfully so - but, some fail to realize that such an expectation demands a trade-off from their end. In short - while it is agreed between spouses that each will be the sole provider of fulfillment ... it also must be understood that the supply must reasonably meet the demand.

Men are signing up for monogamy - not celibacy. Marriage is often about doing things you don't necessarily feel like doing for the benefit of your spouse ... it is the reason I often go to work when I don't feel like it, why I attend events (craft shows, shopping, whatever) when I don't feel like it, and why I perform home maintenance/ car repairs when I don't feel like it. My wife needs me.

Women largely seem to expect monogamy, faithfulness, tenderness, affection, labor, etc., etc., etc. from their spouse ... but do not recognize what must be done in return. That's what loving spouses do - think about their spouses needs before their own. That being said - a husband must understand that a wife may not feel like it occasionally ... and that's fine. But when "occasionally" becomes "usually" ... then there's a problem.

Luckily - my wife and I have no problems in this arena.

Generally speaking - give a good man sex and a sandwich and he'll give you the world. Men are simple creatures ...

K

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Well, the fact that some people get sexually aroused while being degraded says something about their culture and early experiences. This does NOT mean we should keep recreating those conditions. You, unilke I, do not work with people who have been degraded and abused as children; sometimes they are drawn to repeated experiences, or maybe don't know how to avoid them; I don't have a good explanation for why this happens but it does. Not just with respect to sex, but also financial exploitation and exploitation of their time and energies (e.g. persisting in taking care of a man who takes their money and abuses them). Just because you can find examples of attractions to harmful experiences does not mean we should keep perpetuating them. I don't particularly care if people get together in parties and dress up and whip each other, I really don't. But I think making movies of this,, with actors who may not like it at all but need the money, making products that will come to represent sexuality to younger or inexperienced people, is just putting poison into our society, and we have enough of that already.

is it right to assume that all the people who are into degradation, BDSM, urolagnia (being sexually aroused by urination), etc. are like this because of past traumatic experiences? Maybe people with pretty ordinary lives, with loving parents and family, have these kind of sexual fantasies. Like it was said in an episode of Sex and the City sometimes you like in bed what you hate outside it.

And about the actors, they're being paid to do that (unless they're amateurs). If they're doing that it's because they agreed that the amount of money paid compensates for the bad experience. Nobody's forcing them to do that, they're there of their own free choice.

And if they're amateurs, then they like it. Why else would they do it?

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