COMMENTS: 155
Apple Computers: Fun for You, Toxic for the Environment
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Jobs went on for nearly two hours about how amazing and revolutionary his gadget will be. But he did not mention the company's environmental policy once.
Then again, who talks about environmental policy at an electronics fair? Michael Dell does. At the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas during the second week of January, the head of struggling Dell Computers raised the stakes for the entire PC industry: "I challenge every PC maker to join us in providing free recycling for every customer in every country ... all the time -- no exceptions," he said.
Jobs and the PR wizards at Apple have done a fantastic job of positioning the company as the technological haven for the hip, the progressive and the revolutionary. But when it comes to the environment, Apple is out of touch.
In December of 2006, Greenpeace released a report ranking the overall environmental policy of major technology companies. Dell was at the top but Apple found itself at the bottom. While top companies like Dell and Nokia have made great strides to eliminate the most toxic chemicals from their products and offer strong recycling programs, Apple has not.
"Today you can't recycle most of these products because you're recycling toxic waste," says Rick Hind, legislative director of the Greenpeace Toxic Campaign. "We're looking at it from a complete life cycle approach, from where we make these to where they end up. Twenty to 50 million tons of e-waste a year end up in China; that [e-waste] is endangering to migrant families trying to remove a very small percentage of the materials for recycling."
Following the release of the report, Greenpeace launched "GreenMyApple," a full-force PR campaign complete with an informational website that impressively mimics Apple's website. Activists distributed flyers outside of the Moscone Center during the full week of Macworld Expo. The group also altered the video of the famous Steve Jobs keynote address, creating their fantasy version of the keynote in which Jobs would announce that Apple plans not only to step up their environmental policies but will make environmental responsibility a part of the company's identity.
To date, Apple has done only what is legally required. They are in compliance with RoHS standards ("the restriction of the use of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic equipment"), which were put in place in the European Union in July 2006. Pressure from environmental groups like the Computer Take Back Campaign combined with changing legal standards forced Apple to come up with a recycling program that at least looked like it was green -- but that's about it.
Apple refuses to make "green" part of their image. Just finding the environmental section on its website requires either a search of the site or knowing that "apple.com/environment" will get you there. Among all of the tabs in the navigation bar at the top of the pages, "Environment" is nowhere to be found. "As their website shows, green can be turned into greenwash," says Hind. "What we're talking about is measuring them based on toxics and recycling that is a serious physical problem."
Apple spokesperson Kristin Huguet provided the official Apple response to the Greenpeace ranking and campaign: "We disagree with Greenpeace's rating and the criteria they chose. Apple has a strong environmental track record and has led the industry in restricting and banning toxic substances such as mercury, cadmium, hexavelent chromium, as well as many brominated flame retardants. We have also completely eliminated CRT monitors, which contain lead, from our product line. Apple desktops, notebooks, and displays, each score best in class in the new EPA ranking system EPEAT, which uses new international standards set by IEEE."
Apple contends that it is as green as it needs to be and supports that contention with the Silver medal it earned from the EPA's U.S. Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) back in July of 2006. But the sets of criteria used by Greenpeace and the EPA are very different.
For one, the EPA criteria apply to specific products and apply only to stateside programs. Greenpeace's criteria evaluate the company as a whole and are more critical. In a Jan. 12 article on IT Week's Green Business News, Scot Case, marketing director at EPEAT, said, "My initial reaction was that comparing the two systems was like comparing apples and oranges, but on closer inspection it is more like comparing apples and cows."
Yet Apple uses the EPEAT results to refute the Greenpeace grade. Obvious disparities aside, even though Apple did well by EPEAT standards, it still didn't earn a Gold medal. Shouldn't an industry leader strive to achieve the highest possible grade?
Through its "Think Different" campaign a few years ago, Apple positioned itself as the "alternative" computer manufacturer using pictures of idols ranging from Einstein to Gandhi. It targeted a particular segment of the consumer computer market, and to this day, many of its users remain loyal. Many of those users also happen to be socially, politically and environmentally conscious. Yet, Apple has been resistant to take the lead, and Jobs himself has been, at times, downright indignant.
In 2005, in the wake of criticism from environmental organization Silicon Valley Toxic Coalition, Jobs commented on Apple's being "singled out" and called it "bullshit." Barbara Kyle at the Computer Take Back Campaign, a group instrumental in the first push for Apple to establish a recycling program, says, "They're the company that 'thinks different.' We were puzzled all the way along with Apple's behavior."
Since Apple has only gone as far as it needs to, the company already has a lot of catching up to do in order to keep up with other companies in the market who make green policy a priority.
On Jan. 10, 2007, Dell announced that it had teamed up with the Conservation Fund and carbonfund.org to offer a program called "Plant a Tree for Me." When a new Dell computer is purchased, the consumer can opt to add an extra $2 to the cost of the computer. That money will be turned over by Dell to its environmental partners and be dedicated to reforestation. Dell also already offers free recycling of all of its old systems as well as other brands' systems to new Dell customers. Those not buying new Dell systems or recycling old ones can send their e-waste to Dell to be recycled for less than the California sales tax on a new MacBook: $10 per box under 50 lbs.
Compare Dell's program to that of Apple. Before 2005, Apple's recycling programs were virtually nonexistent. Recycling an old Mac meant finding other uses, like turning them into MacQuariums, iMacquariums, or, for G4 Cube owners, Cubequariums.
It has since developed recycling programs in the continental United States and only in foreign countries where mandated by law. It accepts computers only when you buy a new Mac from an Apple retail store or through Apple's online store, and the box you click before checkout is not easy to find.
"It's one thing to say that we're going to have another take-back program, but it's another to say that we're really going to try to make people use it," says Kyle. In addition to the poorly publicized recycling program, Apple is no longer making products to last. "Recycling should be the second thing you do after reusing and extending the life span," says Hind. "That is not an environmental obstacle, it's an intentional obsolescence designed to sell more products."
While Bill Gates publicizes his dedication to philanthropy and Michael Dell rolls out environmentally conscious policy after policy, Steve Jobs is prank-calling Starbucks with the iPhone. And now Greenpeace is calling Apple out on its hypocrisy.
"It's a great irony that the company that markets itself as revolutionary is actually the most reactionary on these policies compared to all of the other major companies," comments Hind. "If once a big user says 'I want it toxic-free,' the engineers and other suppliers are going to scramble to make that; they want that customer. It is crucial that the corporate policies of these companies take the lead."
It is the contradiction between image and action, though, that gives Greenpeace hope that Apple will eventually come around. "That kind of contradiction can't be sustained if you continue with that kind of marketing profile," says Hind. "They have a lot of customers who are critical thinkers, and they have a lot of future customers who are critical thinkers. Don't try to look green, be green."
Barbara Kyle is also hopeful. "If Apple is really willing to make the commitment and actually follow through with it on a number of things -- on takeback, on green design, on any number of things -- they have a chance to shape people's consumer behavior in a way that I think other companies are really challenged to do," says Kyle. "Apple can make this stuff cool."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: edsmith on Jan 30, 2007 5:27 AM
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» RE: I'm an Apple and This is a pc...
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: dbx26 on Jan 30, 2007 6:20 AM
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phil
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» Besides, Mac's last three times longer than Dell's Junk
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: Besides, I like to make stuff up out of thin air
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: why not go after the EPEAT ?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: TominAms on Jan 30, 2007 6:21 AM
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Being from Greenpeace I'll provide some links to our site
GreenmyApple site
Electronics ranking
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» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: TominAms
» How about the other side?
Posted by: ahmlco
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Posted by: elmarco on Jan 30, 2007 6:23 AM
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» RE: Yeah, things like that make the whole argument suspect.
Posted by: edsmith
» RE: A few states away?
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: mbarndollar on Jan 30, 2007 6:24 AM
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» Don't worry... your PC is equally toxic.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Don't worry... your PC is equally toxic.
Posted by: brad
» RE: PC User
Posted by: Scott
» Or, with regard to viruses...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I have to second this post
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: I have to second this post
Posted by: techphile
» Don't worry... those new processors will fix that real quick...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: PC User
Posted by: dhstarr
» Then you are being foolish...
Posted by: alaskagrrl
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jan 30, 2007 6:35 AM
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There's nothing in this article regarding the amazing progress of miniaturization--nowadays, folks can plop a pc with more computing power than the DoD had right up until the 1980's beside their Dummy Box for the express purpose of watching reruns of Sanford and Son. Technology with a smaller footprint means fewer materials, which means less consumption, which means less waste.
Of course, miniaturization and technological progress also makes the technology more useful, and more affordable. Now, we'll wait to hear how dreadful egalitarian technology is...take 'er away.
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» RE: Yawn. The only thing more difficult that getting a successful company to self-impose...
Posted by: hughk
» I don't buy it.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Yawn. The only thing more difficult that getting a successful company to self-impose...
Posted by: shanaza
» Undoubtedly, there is more industry today...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Yawn. The only thing more difficult that getting a successful company to self-impose...
Posted by: techphile
Comments are closed-
Posted by: charlief on Jan 30, 2007 6:36 AM
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However, I have to call to task the author about his comment that Apple's website carries no mention of Environmental concerns unless you dig deep or 'know' where to go.
That is flagrantly not true. It took me two clicks to get to Apple's Environmental page. And it's a big slice of the site too, with sections describing their environmental history thus far; Energy efficiency; manufacturing responsibilites; responsible product design; recycling and summary. Try it yourself: from the home page, click Sitemap, then Environment. How hard is that? Clearly way too hard for all the other computer manufacturers!
Dell's site took me five clicks before I found any reference to anything environmental.
Hewlett Packard seemed not to have any environmental policy, certainly there was nothing on their site AT ALL - and not even a site map to search for one!
Lenovo[IBM], again had no reference to an environmental policy, no commmentary on their site and no means of finding any.
Gateway was the best. One click to their environmental page [one better than Apple's], although it was a meagre, bare bones offering, to be kind.
So, in summary... of all the leading computer manufacturers, it seems Apple fares quite well in that regard. Anyone could try out this for themselves - simple journalistic research and follow through with the facts.
How can the author beat Apple over the head about their 'lack' of an environmental presence on their website, without doing the simple comparison check of the other manufacturers? It's nothing more than misleading, sloppy journalism at best and downright slanted reporting at worst.
For me, this lack of coming clean with the facts and slanting the results, ruins an otherwise worthy article highlighting ALL manufacturers attempts at being environmentally responsible.
1/10 at journalism school for you Jess Hemerly. Do your research and present the facts fairly or don't bother at all!
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» RE: Very disappointed
Posted by: dhstarr
» Please, provide links.
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Please, provide links.
Posted by: gazooks
» enough with the self loving apple porn
Posted by: brad
» RE: Very disappointed
Posted by: allthingslucid
» RE: HP's environmental policy a click away!!
Posted by: Blabdy
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 30, 2007 6:48 AM
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Basically, all electronics parts should be recycled - boards, metal, etc. - except that it's a toxic and nasty process, apparently done largely in the third world and in the US prison system under sweatshop conditions.
Just because Dell allows you to make a $2 donation to a 'plant a tree campaign..." - that makes them a responsible greenwashed company? What's needed is a generalized government-regulated e-waste recycling industry that provides safe working conditions; you could simply place a small tax on all computer and electronics gear sold in the US to help fund such a program.
I mean, go down to your nursery, buy some trees, and plant them yourself - your $2 feel-good donation to Dell is nothing but green marketing (that you get to pay for!)
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» RE: The problem is far more general
Posted by: brad
» RE: The problem is far more general
Posted by: gazooks
» Thanks - so what's the deal with this article?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Apple's Recycling Program is Lacking
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» OK, but isn't this why strict government regulations are needed?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: OK, but isn't this why strict government regulations are needed?
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 30, 2007 6:56 AM
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According to data from a number of independent sources, including governmental (EPA, among others), Apple's products were rated as well as that of any other manufacturer. In fact, their average was ranked above that of Dell.
While recyclability is one facet of how 'green' a computer is, a more important one has shown Apple far ahead of Dell for many years- that of product power consumption. Until the launch of the Intel powered Core Duo line a year ago, the overwhelming majority of Apple Computers for years were powered by a Motorola/Freescale CPU (the brains of a computer) that used a mere fraction of the power consumed by the Intel/AMD chips used by Dell, H-P, Sony, Gateway, IBM and others. When Intel leapfrogged it's competitors with the Core line of CPUs featuring better performance/ power consumption, Apple switched to their chips.
How big a difference are we talking about? The G4 line, depending upon model, used between 10-40 watts of power while the Pentium 4 models shipped by Dell were commonly using anywhere from 80-150 watts. The CPUs Dell and others were using not only consumed more power, they generated much greater heat and required more power consumptive cooling, larger cases and other design choices that increased the amount of materials in each unit. In the end, the Apple units have a much smaller Carbon footprint over their life, using any where from 1/4 to 1/2 the power of the 'Green Dells' every day for the life cycle of the unit. How many tons of greenhouse gases does that add up to?
Since last January, Apple has switched it's CPUs to designs from Intel that are essentially the same as those used by Dell, but literally millions of the older computers will be in daily use for at least another 5-10 years. Even with similar CPU's Apple's OS is superior to Windows in power management and uses less power than similar designs from others. How big a deal is power consumption? Computers use an estimated 7-8% of all the electricity produced in the US, a significant footprint.
This is nothing but a classic hit piece, full of disinformation. Take a look at the 'hard to find' Apple site describing what it actually does.
HERE
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» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: brad
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: brad
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: NoPCZone
» You got it!
Posted by: swissliberal
» You didn't really, really expect...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: LeeAnnG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: greenman on Jan 30, 2007 7:09 AM
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Greenman
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» RE: It's the lead dog...
Posted by: babs
» Every Mac I have ever owned still works -- the trouble is the 'throw away computers' !
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» If you don’t throw them away, they can’t become landfill
Posted by: kpow
» RE: very Mac I have ever owned still works -- the trouble is the 'throw away computers' !
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: gazooks on Jan 30, 2007 7:11 AM
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But it's a gross exaggeration to single out Apple and suggest that Apple, which as a computer company is tiny next to goliath Dell, is resistant to or even hostile to environmental responsibility.
http://www.apple.com/environment/resources/faq.html
I don't want to minimize the importance of personal vigilance or corporate responsibility in identifying measures to improve and actions to enhance environmental responsibility, but the title of this article as singling out Apple as being irresponsible and dramatically behind the curve is distorted and false.
Alternet's editorial policies seem to be migrating towards the sensational toxins of Fox. Unhealthy pollutants for a "fair and balanced" landscape, great for revenue.
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» Not Tiny Any Longer
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: thehousedog on Jan 30, 2007 7:30 AM
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All these computers are neither good nor bad - it's how we perceive them. If you utilize these toxic-made and toxic-remaining machines to do exciting and valueable things in your life, and the lives of others, what is the cost in the bigger picture? If you are just looking for ways to make everybody more aware of how precious life and environment are on this planet, there may be far more prescient topics to focus on then the very objects that we are all using at this moment to read and write with on this blog.
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» RE: Thought Different
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: sausage on Jan 30, 2007 7:33 AM
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» RE: OFLMAO!!!
Posted by: brad
» Get Real
Posted by: NoPCZone
» No conflict of interest here
Posted by: sausage
» RE: OFLMAO!!!
Posted by: babs
» RE: OFLMAO!!!
Posted by: chomsky
» Is defending a corporation rational?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Is defending a corporation rational?
Posted by: chomsky
» Just pissed they don't have the better machine... and they know it.
Posted by: alaskagrrl
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Posted by: LarryGroff on Jan 30, 2007 7:53 AM
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However, Apple is a large corporation whose business goals are far ahead of any other concern, to think otherwise is naive. Apple is not a movement regardless of how we might wish it so. But it is good that Apple is getting the green lights blasted on its façade as it may prod them to indeed move ahead and make their environmental decisions even more carefully and boldly if they fear that their reputation and popularity are at risk.
One area, not mentioned thus far, is the tremendous impact on the environment that obtaining the raw materials needed for computer components has. The mining of copper, gold, coltan and many other elements needed for all computers has wrought tremendous ecological devastation in the under developed countries. Elizabeth Grossman’s book High Tech Trash article about the book and interview here is a comprehensive and very readable look at this issue. Computers need to be designed from the ground up to be earth friendly. Mother Boards and other major computer components should be designed to allow greater ease of reuse and recycling. There should be standards and safeguards to insure that electronics are recycled safely and end the practice of using sweat shop labor or worse to recover gold and copper from PC’s.
It is one thing for Dell to proclaim how green it is – but where will those recycled computers eventually end up. From what I know, most computers are sent overseas where there is very little oversight. Even though some computers do get recycled, very little actually goes back into a new PC. Virtually 100% of the gold and copper in a PC should be able to be reused again and again. However almost no recycled gold or copper is used in PC production, using instead the more expensive mined materials.
The best way for change to come about is educating the public and putting pressure on the computer makers to do the right thing
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» Thank you for your comment
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: Thank you for your comment
Posted by: LarryGroff
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 30, 2007 8:18 AM
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EVERYTHING IS TOXIC. This is a big-picture issue. Apple is only a speck in the poisoning of the planet by producers of consumer products.
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» RE: verything is TOXIC
Posted by: King L Man
» RE: verything is TOXIC
Posted by: gazooks
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Posted by: MAD on Jan 30, 2007 8:20 AM
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Switch to a Mac - you'll live longer!
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» RE: Another Variable To Be Considered . . .
Posted by: brad
» RE: Another Variable To Be Considered . . .
Posted by: MAD
» Why partition for two OS's when one will do nicely?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» It's BSoD not BSD
Posted by: Mac Geek
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Posted by: MTguy on Jan 30, 2007 9:04 AM
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Maybe instead of recycle, they could refurbish and provide them at NO CHARGE to down on their luck school districts nationwide. Just think for a minute what kind of good THAT would do...
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Posted by: duffyb on Jan 30, 2007 9:24 AM
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» RE: Vista release yup they're at war
Posted by: edsmith
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Posted by: xbj on Jan 30, 2007 9:28 AM
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Have no fear, if Apple has been polluting under the radar, now that it's on the radar, they'll stop. ASAP.
While the PC world will go on and on and on and on polluting.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jan 30, 2007 9:31 AM
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It is time we all call a halt to the constant lust for technology for technology's sake. This rush to nowhere has produced, through video games, iPods, do-everything (except reliable calling) cellphones and other techno-toys, a society of perpetual adolescents, and is uniquely destructive to our environment.
The planet, and our place on it, simply can no longer afford the waste produced by comp-u-geek corporations dragging us by the nose down to the next level of I.T. silliness. We all need to be more hard-nosed and ask "why?" of these mfg.'s products, rather than empty our wallets and pitch perfectly good equipment into land fills every year for the sake of nothing.
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» Late to the party?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Late to the party?
Posted by: monkeywrench
» Not quite so fast...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Plant trees instead...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: LarryGroff
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: LarryGroff
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TheGrunger on Jan 30, 2007 9:40 AM
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While I think it is valuable to point out things like this, unless they are actually breaking the law I don't see any value in singling out Apple or any other company. We cannot expect corporations to do the right thing (in any situation, environmental or otherwise) if there are not strict regulations in place to punish them harshly for doing the wrong thing.
The problem is the entire corporate system and the weak regulatory laws of our government - that is where we should focus our efforts. That is the only way to force companies like Apple to pay attention.
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» Reason to single out Apple
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: reason to single out Apple
Posted by: TheGrunger
» RE: reason to single out Apple
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» Really, to sum it up...
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: mactreebeard on Jan 30, 2007 9:41 AM
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» RE: Greenpeace a Fraud
Posted by: NoPCZone
» EPEAT vs. Greenpeace
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: PEAT vs. Greenpeace
Posted by: mactreebeard
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Posted by: gellero on Jan 30, 2007 9:53 AM
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Promise of positive PR on things like this???
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» RE: spammer
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: spammer
Posted by: gellero
» FYI - Greenpeace doesn't take corporate donations
Posted by: TominAms
» RE: FYI - Greenpeace doesn't take corporate donations NOT EXACTLY TRUE
Posted by: gellero
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mizipi on Jan 30, 2007 10:31 AM
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Brazil and ethanol - where does all of the waste from processing the sugar cane go?
Some ideas are better than others and some processes produce less waste, toxic or otherwise, than others.
I hear recycle much more than I hear re-use or do not use at all. We all need to try harder to protect the environment of the earth. Especially in the USA!
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Posted by: acerbas on Jan 30, 2007 11:58 AM
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But on balance, which is more environment friendly, my video chatting with my kid in Hawaii on my Mac, or flying in the big silver tube to visit him?
Or my wife checking out her grandkids 400 miles away with iChat AV rather than driving up to see them? In a system of tradeoffs I think using a Mac with its great video chat program for virtual visits is a far lesser evil than burning up the fuel to make the physical trip.
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» RE: Tiresias
Posted by: Mrs_scrupulosity
» Evil
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: bwunderlick on Jan 30, 2007 12:07 PM
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2. Apple is environmental (they say so on their site) and Greenpeace are liars/Microsoft clones, why do you lie author?!
3. Everything pollutes and planting trees does nothing, why don't you write about that author?!
In contrast to what some of the comments that were written in a few minutes, I think this article is pretty thoroughly researched. It isn't slamming Apple as the worse environmental company, its saying its hipper-than-thou image is standing in place for actual policy to be environmental friendly (that the "evil" company Dell is actually doing). These comments show people are still caught in to the "i'm X (socially, politically, environmentally responsible, cool, with it, anti-bush), i use macs like everyone else who is X, so jobs and macs must also be X!"
I love Apple products, but they are like any other company on the planet. They won't care about the environment till they get their customers care about it. And why should they care when you got all these people willing to attack an article that suggests Dell might be doing a better job at it?
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» RE: Three types of responses
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jan 30, 2007 12:38 PM
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jan 30, 2007 1:01 PM
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Posted by: jimbee on Jan 30, 2007 1:07 PM
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If you are trading up, donate your old PC to Goodwill or the Salvation Army. They will resell it, keeping it our of the landfill and helping to close the digital divide. It may well be that Dell is just as interested in keeping used machines from cannibalizing their market as being green.
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Posted by: acemoab@citlink.net on Jan 30, 2007 2:31 PM
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» RE: Go green on your own, to hell with Dell, and Apple!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Go green on your own, to hell with Dell, and Apple!
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: trademan on Jan 30, 2007 2:57 PM
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Posted by: robvgr on Jan 30, 2007 4:17 PM
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But here's something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this debate: lifespan. I've been using the same Apple laptop for over three years and am planning to use it for at least three more. It is still functioning as well as it did when I purchased it and is still meeting my demands as a graphic designer. When I'm finished with it, I will have no problem selling it given its continued usefulness.
Having previously owned four PCs over a four year period--all of which slowed down considerably over time and were highly susceptible to software degradation due to viruses--I have been very pleased by the long-term usability of my Mac.
Now ... if you need to use a computer and all manufacturers are roughly equal by environmental standards, why not get one that will last as long as possible?
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» RE: Lifespan
Posted by: karyse
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 30, 2007 4:29 PM
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1. The Mac machines last a lot longer. The machines hold up forever. Mac laptops for instance are of much higher quailty then Dells and HP's (pure garbage). You will find a lot of people still using old Macs. They last longer so they are less of a disposal problem. And, even when disposed of, some people continue to use them for things like backup hard drives, distribution points, and even for nostalgic/sentimental reasons.
2. Only about 5-6% of the computer population use Mac's and the Mac (OSX) operating system. Again, fewer comupters equals much less waste.
3. PC's via XP and now VISTA are havens for every piece of malware, spam, adware, trojan horses, spyware, you name it, they will harbor it, harvest it and turn your computer into a zombie. Macs are vastly less vulnerable if running the Mac operating system. So, what about this non-contribution of Macs to the garbage pile. Sure, for PC's, it is a different kind of waste then plastics and circuit boards, but waste is waste. Also, the harm done to humans via raided bank accounts, identity theft and the like on PC's should count for something.
4. Finally, I am a Mac fan as you can tell, but truthfully Jobs could do a little bit better. I think he has been a bit obsessed with playing "catch up" with Bill Gates, at least up until the last few years when the IPod's really took off. It is probably time for him to look at the company doing something. They could run a turn in/recycling program or something like that. It would not hurt profitability and would be good.
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Posted by: zanseattle on Jan 30, 2007 5:25 PM
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It would be a good thing if environmental cost was front-and-center, especially in the tech industry where it can be so damaging, but from this statement, a reader might assume that other industry players (like Dell, IBM, Gateway, HP, Microsoft, or Sony) have such links… except they don't. You have to search for it on Dell.com, just like you do on Apple.
But we are to assume that Apple is the worst; the article asserts that Dell found itself at the "top" in last fall's rankings, while Apple was "at the bottom". Apart from mention of the baby steps from Dell and these rankings, mention of how Apple compares to other computer and consumer products makers is absent.
Actually Apple did poorly in Greenpeace's "Guide to Greener Electronics", but it was not "at the bottom" in that guide, which was actually light on specifics and aimed at consumers as a general buying guide.
No mention is made of the follow-up study released several weeks later, "Toxic Chemicals in Your Laptop Exposed", in which Apple compares very favorably to HP, Dell, and the other manfucturers included, and seemsed to totally contradict the earlier scorecard.
"Apple has done only what is legally required."
"Apple refuses to make 'green' part of their image."
"Even though Apple did well by EPEAT standards, it still didn't earn a Gold medal".
This article seems driven by a desperate yearning for Apple, a visionary company in so many other ways, to step up to the plate and lead as an environmental champion as well. Like other recent articles, it demonizes a company that's doing a fair job because they aren't leading the way.
By all means, point out the dangerous practices of the industry, and Apple in particular, but if, above and beyond that, you want Apple to just do what you want, I'd suggest buying voting shares or getting a seat on the board.
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» RE: Just the Facts, please
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jan 30, 2007 6:06 PM
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Besides Mac's have much longer lifespans and MTF ratings. Heck they simply work better longer and actually need less recycling than PCs.
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Posted by: Dboy on Jan 30, 2007 7:10 PM
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*All* computer hardware is toxic, requires gobs of water and materials to produce. And of course don't forget the power requirements. Difficult to avoid the environmental impact on the hardware side w/o just ditching computers alltogether (no thanks). On the SOFTWARE side though, you can choose from big corporations (Apple and Microsoft) OR you can choose Linux. the politics behind Linux most closely matches the Progessive point of view. The propaganda about "Linux isn't ready for normal people", is just that..propaganda. Linux will make your life simpler and let you just do what you need to do with the machine w/o worrying about stuff like viruses, worms, porno popups etc. Just think, no more Microsoft bug fixes to deal with every time you turn on your computer. Linux can be setup to update itself smoothly and without bothering you. And there's plenty of free software that does more than the stuff you're currently paying gobs of cash for. Are you into voluntary simplicity, permaculture, etc? Linux is for you.
Now that Apple has switched to Intel hardware, and Unix software, it is very easy to compare the cost of ownership. You can directly compare the price of a "core 2 duo" MacbookPro with exactly the same specs on a Toshiba or Sony (the 2 better brands of laptops in my opinion) and you can easily see that the Apple is overpriced by at least $1000 (or more).
If you do buy a Mac, do it with the knowledge that you are paying for form over substance. You're paying for pretty rather than paying for functionality.
Dboy
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» In the Ozone
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Don't be Corporate....choose Linux!
Posted by: kboggs
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Posted by: kboggs on Jan 30, 2007 7:56 PM
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I would suggest that the author do a little more homework before he starts painting with such a broad brush. I've long since lost faith in Greenpeace as far as their objectivity goes.
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» Can't find this info... link?
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: Can't find this info... link?
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: Phenix on Jan 30, 2007 10:19 PM
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http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm
Apple is no better than MS in terms of corporate responsibility. Ultimately the bottom line is to make money and that means that the environment will come second to profits. Steve Jobs could literally lose his job if shareholders revolted because Apple began to take environmentalism seriously.
I think that a lot of people go out and buy an Apple because they think they are being anti-Microsoft and that Apple is the new yippie symbol. The fact is that you can buy a barebones system and install linux onto the comp then download the various free programs. If you do this then you can truly say that you are doing your best to avoid corporations otherwise Apple is not much different than Dell, Gateway or the various other computer makers.
O and I have not had BSD since I got past 98 and ME. The only time my comp screws up is when I have to deal w/ my shitty Dell videocard. I'll have all that fixed when I build my next computer.
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Posted by: PT Alden on Jan 30, 2007 10:24 PM
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I agree with the other comment about CA and NV. The author should do a little research, and have an editor.
It does make me wonder how factual his/her research is.
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Posted by: ahmlco on Jan 30, 2007 10:57 PM
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» RE: Greenpeace Sensationalism At It's Best (Worst)
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: markdemma on Jan 31, 2007 1:40 AM
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The irony of course is that they have chosen to attack a company that has certainly done more than most in the computing industry: tangible actual things like vastly reducing packaging materials, the first to phase out CRT monitors, longer lasting computers, hell they even have Al Gore on their board for goddess' sake people!
This whole campain amounts to little more than cheap stunts to fleece more money from ignorant people that will believe anything Greenpeace tells them. The simple fact is when Greenpeace couldn't extort a big fat check from Steve Jobs they got pissy and started this ridiculus campaign. Maybe they should spend more time learning how to read ocean charts so they don't destroy any more reefs.
Repeating disinformation like this only serves to cheapen Alternet's image and the image of progressives everywhere. It is a shame when WE start acting like the mindless sheep that we accuse the Right of being when we swallow garbage like this without checking the facts first.
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» RE: Saddens me to see Alternet print discredited lies
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: TominAms on Jan 31, 2007 3:39 AM
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Seems to me the author did check his facts - he spoke to Greenpeace and Apple and looked at the differences between the Greenpeace and EPEAT ranking.
You claim that our facts have been discredited by several "trusted sources" Well lets take a look a some of the criticisms.
There’s roughly drafted (linked here in the comments) A blogger who never writes a bad word on Apple and who’s blog seems only to exist to promote Apple. He’s already know to distort facts in favour of Apple. Notice how no objective journalists takes him seriously? Doesn’t stop Apple press spokesperson trying to send journalist to his site though as Jess found out.
There are several dedicated Apple sites who have run negative stories on the campaign. While they might not like the campaign it doesn’t change the fact that Apple hasn’t removed the worst toxic chemicals from their products and doesn’t have a global take back policy.
In January there were lots of internet stories on how suddenly the EPA had proved Greenpeace wrong. In fact the EPEAT ranking has been around since July last year and uses different less stringent criteria than the Greenpeace ranking. This article already pointed out that even EPEAT have said that using their ranking to "prove" Greenpeace is wrong is rubbish:
"However, Scot Case, marketing director at EPEAT, insisted there was no contradiction between the two ranking systems' findings and that neither could be used to prove the inaccuracy of the other. "My initial reaction was that comparing the two systems was like comparing apples and oranges, but on closer inspection it is more like comparing apples and cows," he said. "EPEAT focuses on ranking the products, Greenpeace is looking at the whole company."
From Green Business News
We say Apple’s policies on toxics and e-waste are lacking, EPEAT says specific Apple products get a silver ranking along with most other major manufactures. Both ranking show Apple is not a green leader ahead of the competition where they should be.
Full response to all main criticisms of the our campaign can be found here.
Oh and to repeat myself - no, Greenpeace does not take money from any company or government. And having Al Gore on your board doesn’t seem to have changed anything because its Steve who calls the shots. Maybe he thinks Mac fans don’t want Apple to be green?
Tom @ Greenpeace
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» RE: what you don’t agree with are lies?
Posted by: markdemma
» RE: what you don’t agree with are lies?
Posted by: TominAms
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Posted by: seamus on Jan 31, 2007 7:21 AM
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On the other hand, the ipod is, whether intentionally or not, one of the most environmentally friendly products of recent years, as it's estimated that downloading music only uses up half as much energy as buying CDs.
It's always worth giving credit where it's due.
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» RE: green ipod
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: green ipod
Posted by: seamus
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Posted by: charlief on Jan 31, 2007 10:40 AM
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"Maybe he thinks Mac fans don’t want Apple to be green?" This is a despicable and incredibly dumb comment to make about the users of a computer. What's wrong with him?? Does he think that attacking the very people that are most likely to support him is a 'progressive' thing to do? Or does he normally shoot off at the mouth without first engaging his brain? I don't know anymore... the left is so framented and - in parts - so self-destructive it hardly seems worth it anymore.
Here's the bottom line:
Apple is absolutely no worse and probably no better that any other computer manufacturer out there. They ALL use cheap labour, dubious chemicals and less than ecologically sound manufacturing techniques to provide Tom@Greenpeace [and me] with our computers of choice.
So Greenpeace singled out Apple for an attack because.... uhm, a major publicity hit perhaps? Or an axe to grind against Jobs [that'd be Steve Jobs, the contributor to the Democrats - as opposed to Michael Dell, a major contributor to the Bush regime]? Or maybe it was just their cynical PR company knew the furore it would cause - regardless of being accurate, or dare I say it, even-handed?
Is Greenpeace actually saying that the new Chinese owners of IBM - now named Lenovo - are 'greener' than Apple? Really? Are they f**king serious? China has the worst human rights records, the worst environmental controls, probably the worst working conditions and the poorest paid workforce. To my knowledge, ALL of Lenovo's machines are manufactured and assembled in the glorious People's Republic of China! Do you feel proud now???
The same isn't true for Apple, where a huge number of machines for the European market are manufactured in Ireland. And by the way, Ireland has one of the fastest growing, and progressive economies in the EU - and is continually named the best place to live in Europe in survey after survey, with one of the best standards of living.
Holy f**king christ greenpeace... get a sense of proportion here!
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» RE: More bullshit from Greenpeace
Posted by: TominAms
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Posted by: wwittman on Jan 31, 2007 12:59 PM
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I don't need to worry about WHY.
The bottom line is that most of this HAS been debunked widely elsewhere, so Alternet, I think, needs to retract it.
but:
"To date, Apple has done only what is legally required. They are in compliance with RoHS standards ("the restriction of the use of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic equipment"), which were put in place in the European Union in July 2006."
Following the law IS their reponsisbility.
If the law doesn't require ENOUGH, then the law is what is at fault.
It's not fair to ask a company to give itslef an unfair competitive DISadvantage.
It's totally appropriate for the government to make laws that DO effectively police the environmental ipact, WIHTOUT reagrd to corporate profits.
But this aticle has the idea turned around, as though the government has every right to protect corporate profits by passing weak laws or ignoring enforcement; yet companies, like Apple, should EXCEED the demands of law due to their own conscience.
Wrong.
Government exists to serve the public, not industry.
Industry exists to serve itself.
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Posted by: South Dakota Liberal on Feb 26, 2007 6:50 PM
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Posted by: edsmith on Jan 30, 2007 5:27 AM
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» RE: I'm an Apple and This is a pc...
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: dbx26 on Jan 30, 2007 6:20 AM
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phil
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» Besides, Mac's last three times longer than Dell's Junk
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: Besides, I like to make stuff up out of thin air
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: why not go after the EPEAT ?
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: TominAms on Jan 30, 2007 6:21 AM
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Being from Greenpeace I'll provide some links to our site
GreenmyApple site
Electronics ranking
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» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: Additional info links? Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: techphile
» RE: Green My Propaganda Site ?
Posted by: TominAms
» How about the other side?
Posted by: ahmlco
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Posted by: elmarco on Jan 30, 2007 6:23 AM
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» RE: Yeah, things like that make the whole argument suspect.
Posted by: edsmith
» RE: A few states away?
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: mbarndollar on Jan 30, 2007 6:24 AM
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» Don't worry... your PC is equally toxic.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Don't worry... your PC is equally toxic.
Posted by: brad
» RE: PC User
Posted by: Scott
» Or, with regard to viruses...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I have to second this post
Posted by: Techubus
» RE: I have to second this post
Posted by: techphile
» Don't worry... those new processors will fix that real quick...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: PC User
Posted by: dhstarr
» Then you are being foolish...
Posted by: alaskagrrl
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jan 30, 2007 6:35 AM
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There's nothing in this article regarding the amazing progress of miniaturization--nowadays, folks can plop a pc with more computing power than the DoD had right up until the 1980's beside their Dummy Box for the express purpose of watching reruns of Sanford and Son. Technology with a smaller footprint means fewer materials, which means less consumption, which means less waste.
Of course, miniaturization and technological progress also makes the technology more useful, and more affordable. Now, we'll wait to hear how dreadful egalitarian technology is...take 'er away.
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» RE: Yawn. The only thing more difficult that getting a successful company to self-impose...
Posted by: hughk
» I don't buy it.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Yawn. The only thing more difficult that getting a successful company to self-impose...
Posted by: shanaza
» Undoubtedly, there is more industry today...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Yawn. The only thing more difficult that getting a successful company to self-impose...
Posted by: techphile
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Posted by: charlief on Jan 30, 2007 6:36 AM
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However, I have to call to task the author about his comment that Apple's website carries no mention of Environmental concerns unless you dig deep or 'know' where to go.
That is flagrantly not true. It took me two clicks to get to Apple's Environmental page. And it's a big slice of the site too, with sections describing their environmental history thus far; Energy efficiency; manufacturing responsibilites; responsible product design; recycling and summary. Try it yourself: from the home page, click Sitemap, then Environment. How hard is that? Clearly way too hard for all the other computer manufacturers!
Dell's site took me five clicks before I found any reference to anything environmental.
Hewlett Packard seemed not to have any environmental policy, certainly there was nothing on their site AT ALL - and not even a site map to search for one!
Lenovo[IBM], again had no reference to an environmental policy, no commmentary on their site and no means of finding any.
Gateway was the best. One click to their environmental page [one better than Apple's], although it was a meagre, bare bones offering, to be kind.
So, in summary... of all the leading computer manufacturers, it seems Apple fares quite well in that regard. Anyone could try out this for themselves - simple journalistic research and follow through with the facts.
How can the author beat Apple over the head about their 'lack' of an environmental presence on their website, without doing the simple comparison check of the other manufacturers? It's nothing more than misleading, sloppy journalism at best and downright slanted reporting at worst.
For me, this lack of coming clean with the facts and slanting the results, ruins an otherwise worthy article highlighting ALL manufacturers attempts at being environmentally responsible.
1/10 at journalism school for you Jess Hemerly. Do your research and present the facts fairly or don't bother at all!
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» RE: Very disappointed
Posted by: dhstarr
» Please, provide links.
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Please, provide links.
Posted by: gazooks
» enough with the self loving apple porn
Posted by: brad
» RE: Very disappointed
Posted by: allthingslucid
» RE: HP's environmental policy a click away!!
Posted by: Blabdy
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 30, 2007 6:48 AM
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Basically, all electronics parts should be recycled - boards, metal, etc. - except that it's a toxic and nasty process, apparently done largely in the third world and in the US prison system under sweatshop conditions.
Just because Dell allows you to make a $2 donation to a 'plant a tree campaign..." - that makes them a responsible greenwashed company? What's needed is a generalized government-regulated e-waste recycling industry that provides safe working conditions; you could simply place a small tax on all computer and electronics gear sold in the US to help fund such a program.
I mean, go down to your nursery, buy some trees, and plant them yourself - your $2 feel-good donation to Dell is nothing but green marketing (that you get to pay for!)
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» RE: The problem is far more general
Posted by: brad
» RE: The problem is far more general
Posted by: gazooks
» Thanks - so what's the deal with this article?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Apple's Recycling Program is Lacking
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» OK, but isn't this why strict government regulations are needed?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: OK, but isn't this why strict government regulations are needed?
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 30, 2007 6:56 AM
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According to data from a number of independent sources, including governmental (EPA, among others), Apple's products were rated as well as that of any other manufacturer. In fact, their average was ranked above that of Dell.
While recyclability is one facet of how 'green' a computer is, a more important one has shown Apple far ahead of Dell for many years- that of product power consumption. Until the launch of the Intel powered Core Duo line a year ago, the overwhelming majority of Apple Computers for years were powered by a Motorola/Freescale CPU (the brains of a computer) that used a mere fraction of the power consumed by the Intel/AMD chips used by Dell, H-P, Sony, Gateway, IBM and others. When Intel leapfrogged it's competitors with the Core line of CPUs featuring better performance/ power consumption, Apple switched to their chips.
How big a difference are we talking about? The G4 line, depending upon model, used between 10-40 watts of power while the Pentium 4 models shipped by Dell were commonly using anywhere from 80-150 watts. The CPUs Dell and others were using not only consumed more power, they generated much greater heat and required more power consumptive cooling, larger cases and other design choices that increased the amount of materials in each unit. In the end, the Apple units have a much smaller Carbon footprint over their life, using any where from 1/4 to 1/2 the power of the 'Green Dells' every day for the life cycle of the unit. How many tons of greenhouse gases does that add up to?
Since last January, Apple has switched it's CPUs to designs from Intel that are essentially the same as those used by Dell, but literally millions of the older computers will be in daily use for at least another 5-10 years. Even with similar CPU's Apple's OS is superior to Windows in power management and uses less power than similar designs from others. How big a deal is power consumption? Computers use an estimated 7-8% of all the electricity produced in the US, a significant footprint.
This is nothing but a classic hit piece, full of disinformation. Take a look at the 'hard to find' Apple site describing what it actually does.
HERE
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» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: brad
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: brad
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: NoPCZone
» You got it!
Posted by: swissliberal
» You didn't really, really expect...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Classic Disinformation
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: greenman on Jan 30, 2007 7:09 AM
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Greenman
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» RE: It's the lead dog...
Posted by: babs
» Every Mac I have ever owned still works -- the trouble is the 'throw away computers' !
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» If you don’t throw them away, they can’t become landfill
Posted by: kpow
» RE: very Mac I have ever owned still works -- the trouble is the 'throw away computers' !
Posted by: Sushi
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Posted by: gazooks on Jan 30, 2007 7:11 AM
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But it's a gross exaggeration to single out Apple and suggest that Apple, which as a computer company is tiny next to goliath Dell, is resistant to or even hostile to environmental responsibility.
http://www.apple.com/environment/resources/faq.html
I don't want to minimize the importance of personal vigilance or corporate responsibility in identifying measures to improve and actions to enhance environmental responsibility, but the title of this article as singling out Apple as being irresponsible and dramatically behind the curve is distorted and false.
Alternet's editorial policies seem to be migrating towards the sensational toxins of Fox. Unhealthy pollutants for a "fair and balanced" landscape, great for revenue.
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» Not Tiny Any Longer
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: thehousedog on Jan 30, 2007 7:30 AM
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All these computers are neither good nor bad - it's how we perceive them. If you utilize these toxic-made and toxic-remaining machines to do exciting and valueable things in your life, and the lives of others, what is the cost in the bigger picture? If you are just looking for ways to make everybody more aware of how precious life and environment are on this planet, there may be far more prescient topics to focus on then the very objects that we are all using at this moment to read and write with on this blog.
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» RE: Thought Different
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: sausage on Jan 30, 2007 7:33 AM
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» RE: OFLMAO!!!
Posted by: brad
» Get Real
Posted by: NoPCZone
» No conflict of interest here
Posted by: sausage
» RE: OFLMAO!!!
Posted by: babs
» RE: OFLMAO!!!
Posted by: chomsky
» Is defending a corporation rational?
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Is defending a corporation rational?
Posted by: chomsky
» Just pissed they don't have the better machine... and they know it.
Posted by: alaskagrrl
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Posted by: LarryGroff on Jan 30, 2007 7:53 AM
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However, Apple is a large corporation whose business goals are far ahead of any other concern, to think otherwise is naive. Apple is not a movement regardless of how we might wish it so. But it is good that Apple is getting the green lights blasted on its façade as it may prod them to indeed move ahead and make their environmental decisions even more carefully and boldly if they fear that their reputation and popularity are at risk.
One area, not mentioned thus far, is the tremendous impact on the environment that obtaining the raw materials needed for computer components has. The mining of copper, gold, coltan and many other elements needed for all computers has wrought tremendous ecological devastation in the under developed countries. Elizabeth Grossman’s book High Tech Trash article about the book and interview here is a comprehensive and very readable look at this issue. Computers need to be designed from the ground up to be earth friendly. Mother Boards and other major computer components should be designed to allow greater ease of reuse and recycling. There should be standards and safeguards to insure that electronics are recycled safely and end the practice of using sweat shop labor or worse to recover gold and copper from PC’s.
It is one thing for Dell to proclaim how green it is – but where will those recycled computers eventually end up. From what I know, most computers are sent overseas where there is very little oversight. Even though some computers do get recycled, very little actually goes back into a new PC. Virtually 100% of the gold and copper in a PC should be able to be reused again and again. However almost no recycled gold or copper is used in PC production, using instead the more expensive mined materials.
The best way for change to come about is educating the public and putting pressure on the computer makers to do the right thing
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» Thank you for your comment
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: Thank you for your comment
Posted by: LarryGroff
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 30, 2007 8:18 AM
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EVERYTHING IS TOXIC. This is a big-picture issue. Apple is only a speck in the poisoning of the planet by producers of consumer products.
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» RE: verything is TOXIC
Posted by: King L Man
» RE: verything is TOXIC
Posted by: gazooks
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Posted by: MAD on Jan 30, 2007 8:20 AM
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Switch to a Mac - you'll live longer!
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» RE: Another Variable To Be Considered . . .
Posted by: brad
» RE: Another Variable To Be Considered . . .
Posted by: MAD
» Why partition for two OS's when one will do nicely?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» It's BSoD not BSD
Posted by: Mac Geek
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Posted by: MTguy on Jan 30, 2007 9:04 AM
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Maybe instead of recycle, they could refurbish and provide them at NO CHARGE to down on their luck school districts nationwide. Just think for a minute what kind of good THAT would do...
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Posted by: duffyb on Jan 30, 2007 9:24 AM
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» RE: Vista release yup they're at war
Posted by: edsmith
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Posted by: xbj on Jan 30, 2007 9:28 AM
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Have no fear, if Apple has been polluting under the radar, now that it's on the radar, they'll stop. ASAP.
While the PC world will go on and on and on and on polluting.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Jan 30, 2007 9:31 AM
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It is time we all call a halt to the constant lust for technology for technology's sake. This rush to nowhere has produced, through video games, iPods, do-everything (except reliable calling) cellphones and other techno-toys, a society of perpetual adolescents, and is uniquely destructive to our environment.
The planet, and our place on it, simply can no longer afford the waste produced by comp-u-geek corporations dragging us by the nose down to the next level of I.T. silliness. We all need to be more hard-nosed and ask "why?" of these mfg.'s products, rather than empty our wallets and pitch perfectly good equipment into land fills every year for the sake of nothing.
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» Late to the party?
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Late to the party?
Posted by: monkeywrench
» Not quite so fast...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Plant trees instead...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: LarryGroff
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Plant trees instead...
Posted by: LarryGroff
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Posted by: TheGrunger on Jan 30, 2007 9:40 AM
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While I think it is valuable to point out things like this, unless they are actually breaking the law I don't see any value in singling out Apple or any other company. We cannot expect corporations to do the right thing (in any situation, environmental or otherwise) if there are not strict regulations in place to punish them harshly for doing the wrong thing.
The problem is the entire corporate system and the weak regulatory laws of our government - that is where we should focus our efforts. That is the only way to force companies like Apple to pay attention.
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» Reason to single out Apple
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: reason to single out Apple
Posted by: TheGrunger
» RE: reason to single out Apple
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» Really, to sum it up...
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: mactreebeard on Jan 30, 2007 9:41 AM
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» RE: Greenpeace a Fraud
Posted by: NoPCZone
» EPEAT vs. Greenpeace
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: PEAT vs. Greenpeace
Posted by: mactreebeard
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Posted by: gellero on Jan 30, 2007 9:53 AM
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Promise of positive PR on things like this???
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» RE: spammer
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: spammer
Posted by: gellero
» FYI - Greenpeace doesn't take corporate donations
Posted by: TominAms
» RE: FYI - Greenpeace doesn't take corporate donations NOT EXACTLY TRUE
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: mizipi on Jan 30, 2007 10:31 AM
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Brazil and ethanol - where does all of the waste from processing the sugar cane go?
Some ideas are better than others and some processes produce less waste, toxic or otherwise, than others.
I hear recycle much more than I hear re-use or do not use at all. We all need to try harder to protect the environment of the earth. Especially in the USA!
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Posted by: acerbas on Jan 30, 2007 11:58 AM
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But on balance, which is more environment friendly, my video chatting with my kid in Hawaii on my Mac, or flying in the big silver tube to visit him?
Or my wife checking out her grandkids 400 miles away with iChat AV rather than driving up to see them? In a system of tradeoffs I think using a Mac with its great video chat program for virtual visits is a far lesser evil than burning up the fuel to make the physical trip.
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» RE: Tiresias
Posted by: Mrs_scrupulosity
» Evil
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: bwunderlick on Jan 30, 2007 12:07 PM
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2. Apple is environmental (they say so on their site) and Greenpeace are liars/Microsoft clones, why do you lie author?!
3. Everything pollutes and planting trees does nothing, why don't you write about that author?!
In contrast to what some of the comments that were written in a few minutes, I think this article is pretty thoroughly researched. It isn't slamming Apple as the worse environmental company, its saying its hipper-than-thou image is standing in place for actual policy to be environmental friendly (that the "evil" company Dell is actually doing). These comments show people are still caught in to the "i'm X (socially, politically, environmentally responsible, cool, with it, anti-bush), i use macs like everyone else who is X, so jobs and macs must also be X!"
I love Apple products, but they are like any other company on the planet. They won't care about the environment till they get their customers care about it. And why should they care when you got all these people willing to attack an article that suggests Dell might be doing a better job at it?
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» RE: Three types of responses
Posted by: Phenix
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jan 30, 2007 12:38 PM
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jan 30, 2007 1:01 PM
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Posted by: jimbee on Jan 30, 2007 1:07 PM
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If you are trading up, donate your old PC to Goodwill or the Salvation Army. They will resell it, keeping it our of the landfill and helping to close the digital divide. It may well be that Dell is just as interested in keeping used machines from cannibalizing their market as being green.
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Posted by: acemoab@citlink.net on Jan 30, 2007 2:31 PM
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» RE: Go green on your own, to hell with Dell, and Apple!
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Go green on your own, to hell with Dell, and Apple!
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: trademan on Jan 30, 2007 2:57 PM
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Posted by: robvgr on Jan 30, 2007 4:17 PM
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But here's something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this debate: lifespan. I've been using the same Apple laptop for over three years and am planning to use it for at least three more. It is still functioning as well as it did when I purchased it and is still meeting my demands as a graphic designer. When I'm finished with it, I will have no problem selling it given its continued usefulness.
Having previously owned four PCs over a four year period--all of which slowed down considerably over time and were highly susceptible to software degradation due to viruses--I have been very pleased by the long-term usability of my Mac.
Now ... if you need to use a computer and all manufacturers are roughly equal by environmental standards, why not get one that will last as long as possible?
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» RE: Lifespan
Posted by: karyse
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 30, 2007 4:29 PM
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1. The Mac machines last a lot longer. The machines hold up forever. Mac laptops for instance are of much higher quailty then Dells and HP's (pure garbage). You will find a lot of people still using old Macs. They last longer so they are less of a disposal problem. And, even when disposed of, some people continue to use them for things like backup hard drives, distribution points, and even for nostalgic/sentimental reasons.
2. Only about 5-6% of the computer population use Mac's and the Mac (OSX) operating system. Again, fewer comupters equals much less waste.
3. PC's via XP and now VISTA are havens for every piece of malware, spam, adware, trojan horses, spyware, you name it, they will harbor it, harvest it and turn your computer into a zombie. Macs are vastly less vulnerable if running the Mac operating system. So, what about this non-contribution of Macs to the garbage pile. Sure, for PC's, it is a different kind of waste then plastics and circuit boards, but waste is waste. Also, the harm done to humans via raided bank accounts, identity theft and the like on PC's should count for something.
4. Finally, I am a Mac fan as you can tell, but truthfully Jobs could do a little bit better. I think he has been a bit obsessed with playing "catch up" with Bill Gates, at least up until the last few years when the IPod's really took off. It is probably time for him to look at the company doing something. They could run a turn in/recycling program or something like that. It would not hurt profitability and would be good.
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Posted by: zanseattle on Jan 30, 2007 5:25 PM
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It would be a good thing if environmental cost was front-and-center, especially in the tech industry where it can be so damaging, but from this statement, a reader might assume that other industry players (like Dell, IBM, Gateway, HP, Microsoft, or Sony) have such links… except they don't. You have to search for it on Dell.com, just like you do on Apple.
But we are to assume that Apple is the worst; the article asserts that Dell found itself at the "top" in last fall's rankings, while Apple was "at the bottom". Apart from mention of the baby steps from Dell and these rankings, mention of how Apple compares to other computer and consumer products makers is absent.
Actually Apple did poorly in Greenpeace's "Guide to Greener Electronics", but it was not "at the bottom" in that guide, which was actually light on specifics and aimed at consumers as a general buying guide.
No mention is made of the follow-up study released several weeks later, "Toxic Chemicals in Your Laptop Exposed", in which Apple compares very favorably to HP, Dell, and the other manfucturers included, and seemsed to totally contradict the earlier scorecard.
"Apple has done only what is legally required."
"Apple refuses to make 'green' part of their image."
"Even though Apple did well by EPEAT standards, it still didn't earn a Gold medal".
This article seems driven by a desperate yearning for Apple, a visionary company in so many other ways, to step up to the plate and lead as an environmental champion as well. Like other recent articles, it demonizes a company that's doing a fair job because they aren't leading the way.
By all means, point out the dangerous practices of the industry, and Apple in particular, but if, above and beyond that, you want Apple to just do what you want, I'd suggest buying voting shares or getting a seat on the board.
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» RE: Just the Facts, please
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jan 30, 2007 6:06 PM
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Besides Mac's have much longer lifespans and MTF ratings. Heck they simply work better longer and actually need less recycling than PCs.
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Posted by: Dboy on Jan 30, 2007 7:10 PM
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*All* computer hardware is toxic, requires gobs of water and materials to produce. And of course don't forget the power requirements. Difficult to avoid the environmental impact on the hardware side w/o just ditching computers alltogether (no thanks). On the SOFTWARE side though, you can choose from big corporations (Apple and Microsoft) OR you can choose Linux. the politics behind Linux most closely matches the Progessive point of view. The propaganda about "Linux isn't ready for normal people", is just that..propaganda. Linux will make your life simpler and let you just do what you need to do with the machine w/o worrying about stuff like viruses, worms, porno popups etc. Just think, no more Microsoft bug fixes to deal with every time you turn on your computer. Linux can be setup to update itself smoothly and without bothering you. And there's plenty of free software that does more than the stuff you're currently paying gobs of cash for. Are you into voluntary simplicity, permaculture, etc? Linux is for you.
Now that Apple has switched to Intel hardware, and Unix software, it is very easy to compare the cost of ownership. You can directly compare the price of a "core 2 duo" MacbookPro with exactly the same specs on a Toshiba or Sony (the 2 better brands of laptops in my opinion) and you can easily see that the Apple is overpriced by at least $1000 (or more).
If you do buy a Mac, do it with the knowledge that you are paying for form over substance. You're paying for pretty rather than paying for functionality.
Dboy
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» In the Ozone
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Don't be Corporate....choose Linux!
Posted by: kboggs
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Posted by: kboggs on Jan 30, 2007 7:56 PM
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I would suggest that the author do a little more homework before he starts painting with such a broad brush. I've long since lost faith in Greenpeace as far as their objectivity goes.
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» Can't find this info... link?
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
» RE: Can't find this info... link?
Posted by: Jess Hemerly
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Posted by: Phenix on Jan 30, 2007 10:19 PM
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http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm
Apple is no better than MS in terms of corporate responsibility. Ultimately the bottom line is to make money and that means that the environment will come second to profits. Steve Jobs could literally lose his job if shareholders revolted because Apple began to take environmentalism seriously.
I think that a lot of people go out and buy an Apple because they think they are being anti-Microsoft and that Apple is the new yippie symbol. The fact is that you can buy a barebones system and install linux onto the comp then download the various free programs. If you do this then you can truly say that you are doing your best to avoid corporations otherwise Apple is not much different than Dell, Gateway or the various other computer makers.
O and I have not had BSD since I got past 98 and ME. The only time my comp screws up is when I have to deal w/ my shitty Dell videocard. I'll have all that fixed when I build my next computer.
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Posted by: PT Alden on Jan 30, 2007 10:24 PM
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I agree with the other comment about CA and NV. The author should do a little research, and have an editor.
It does make me wonder how factual his/her research is.
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Posted by: ahmlco on Jan 30, 2007 10:57 PM
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» RE: Greenpeace Sensationalism At It's Best (Worst)
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: markdemma on Jan 31, 2007 1:40 AM
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The irony of course is that they have chosen to attack a company that has certainly done more than most in the computing industry: tangible actual things like vastly reducing packaging materials, the first to phase out CRT monitors, longer lasting computers, hell they even have Al Gore on their board for goddess' sake people!
This whole campain amounts to little more than cheap stunts to fleece more money from ignorant people that will believe anything Greenpeace tells them. The simple fact is when Greenpeace couldn't extort a big fat check from Steve Jobs they got pissy and started this ridiculus campaign. Maybe they should spend more time learning how to read ocean charts so they don't destroy any more reefs.
Repeating disinformation like this only serves to cheapen Alternet's image and the image of progressives everywhere. It is a shame when WE start acting like the mindless sheep that we accuse the Right of being when we swallow garbage like this without checking the facts first.
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» RE: Saddens me to see Alternet print discredited lies
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: TominAms on Jan 31, 2007 3:39 AM
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Seems to me the author did check his facts - he spoke to Greenpeace and Apple and looked at the differences between the Greenpeace and EPEAT ranking.
You claim that our facts have been discredited by several "trusted sources" Well lets take a look a some of the criticisms.
There’s roughly drafted (linked here in the comments) A blogger who never writes a bad word on Apple and who’s blog seems only to exist to promote Apple. He’s already know to distort facts in favour of Apple. Notice how no objective journalists takes him seriously? Doesn’t stop Apple press spokesperson trying to send journalist to his site though as Jess found out.
There are several dedicated Apple sites who have run negative stories on the campaign. While they might not like the campaign it doesn’t change the fact that Apple hasn’t removed the worst toxic chemicals from their products and doesn’t have a global take back policy.
In January there were lots of internet stories on how suddenly the EPA had proved Greenpeace wrong. In fact the EPEAT ranking has been around since July last year and uses different less stringent criteria than the Greenpeace ranking. This article already pointed out that even EPEAT have said that using their ranking to "prove" Greenpeace is wrong is rubbish:
"However, Scot Case, marketing director at EPEAT, insisted there was no contradiction between the two ranking systems' findings and that neither could be used to prove the inaccuracy of the other. "My initial reaction was that comparing the two systems was like comparing apples and oranges, but on closer inspection it is more like comparing apples and cows," he said. "EPEAT focuses on ranking the products, Greenpeace is looking at the whole company."
From Green Business News
We say Apple’s policies on toxics and e-waste are lacking, EPEAT says specific Apple products get a silver ranking along with most other major manufactures. Both ranking show Apple is not a green leader ahead of the competition where they should be.
Full response to all main criticisms of the our campaign can be found here.
Oh and to repeat myself - no, Greenpeace does not take money from any company or government. And having Al Gore on your board doesn’t seem to have changed anything because its Steve who calls the shots. Maybe he thinks Mac fans don’t want Apple to be green?
Tom @ Greenpeace
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» RE: what you don’t agree with are lies?
Posted by: markdemma
» RE: what you don’t agree with are lies?
Posted by: TominAms
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Posted by: seamus on Jan 31, 2007 7:21 AM
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On the other hand, the ipod is, whether intentionally or not, one of the most environmentally friendly products of recent years, as it's estimated that downloading music only uses up half as much energy as buying CDs.
It's always worth giving credit where it's due.
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» RE: green ipod
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: green ipod
Posted by: seamus
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Posted by: charlief on Jan 31, 2007 10:40 AM
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"Maybe he thinks Mac fans don’t want Apple to be green?" This is a despicable and incredibly dumb comment to make about the users of a computer. What's wrong with him?? Does he think that attacking the very people that are most likely to support him is a 'progressive' thing to do? Or does he normally shoot off at the mouth without first engaging his brain? I don't know anymore... the left is so framented and - in parts - so self-destructive it hardly seems worth it anymore.
Here's the bottom line:
Apple is absolutely no worse and probably no better that any other computer manufacturer out there. They ALL use cheap labour, dubious chemicals and less than ecologically sound manufacturing techniques to provide Tom@Greenpeace [and me] with our computers of choice.
So Greenpeace singled out Apple for an attack because.... uhm, a major publicity hit perhaps? Or an axe to grind against Jobs [that'd be Steve Jobs, the contributor to the Democrats - as opposed to Michael Dell, a major contributor to the Bush regime]? Or maybe it was just their cynical PR company knew the furore it would cause - regardless of being accurate, or dare I say it, even-handed?
Is Greenpeace actually saying that the new Chinese owners of IBM - now named Lenovo - are 'greener' than Apple? Really? Are they f**king serious? China has the worst human rights records, the worst environmental controls, probably the worst working conditions and the poorest paid workforce. To my knowledge, ALL of Lenovo's machines are manufactured and assembled in the glorious People's Republic of China! Do you feel proud now???
The same isn't true for Apple, where a huge number of machines for the European market are manufactured in Ireland. And by the way, Ireland has one of the fastest growing, and progressive economies in the EU - and is continually named the best place to live in Europe in survey after survey, with one of the best standards of living.
Holy f**king christ greenpeace... get a sense of proportion here!
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» RE: More bullshit from Greenpeace
Posted by: TominAms
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Posted by: wwittman on Jan 31, 2007 12:59 PM
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I don't need to worry about WHY.
The bottom line is that most of this HAS been debunked widely elsewhere, so Alternet, I think, needs to retract it.
but:
"To date, Apple has done only what is legally required. They are in compliance with RoHS standards ("the restriction of the use of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic equipment"), which were put in place in the European Union in July 2006."
Following the law IS their reponsisbility.
If the law doesn't require ENOUGH, then the law is what is at fault.
It's not fair to ask a company to give itslef an unfair competitive DISadvantage.
It's totally appropriate for the government to make laws that DO effectively police the environmental ipact, WIHTOUT reagrd to corporate profits.
But this aticle has the idea turned around, as though the government has every right to protect corporate profits by passing weak laws or ignoring enforcement; yet companies, like Apple, should EXCEED the demands of law due to their own conscience.
Wrong.
Government exists to serve the public, not industry.
Industry exists to serve itself.
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Posted by: South Dakota Liberal on Feb 26, 2007 6:50 PM
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