Home
Archive
Columnists
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Advertisement
Register to Vote: Rock the Vote, powered by Working Assets Wireless
Advertisement
  • AlterNetYour turn

Support AlterNet
Do you value the information you're getting from AlterNet? Please show your support with a tax-deductible donation.


Feedback
Tell us how we're doing.

The Dawkins Delusion

By Alister McGrath, AlterNet. Posted January 26, 2007.


An Oxford theologian contends that the aggressive rhetoric of Richard Dawkins' books masks a deep insecurity about the public credibility of atheism.

Share and save this post:
Digg iconDelicious iconReddit iconFark iconYahoo! iconNewsvine! iconFacebook iconNewsTrust icon

More stories by Alister McGrath

Get AlterNet in
your mailbox!

 
Advertisement

Alister McGrath, a biochemist and Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University, may be Richard Dawkins' most prominent critic. As the author of "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life," he was interviewed extensively for Dawkins' recent documentary, "The Root of All Evil." Not a frame of these interviews made it into the final edit. Below is a slightly modified version of remarks delivered by McGrath in response to Dawkins' latest book, "The God Delusion."

The God Delusion has established Dawkins as the world's most high-profile atheist polemicist, who directs a withering criticism against every form of religion. He is out to convert his readers. "If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." Not that he thinks that this is particularly likely; after all, he suggests, "dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads are immune to argument." Along with Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris, Dawkins directs a ferocious trade of criticism against religion in general and Christianity in particular. In this article, I propose to explore two major questions. First, why this sudden outburst of aggression? Second, how reliable are Dawkins' criticisms of religion?

Let's begin by looking at the first question. Every worldview, whether religious or not, has its point of vulnerability. There is a tension between theory and experience, raising questions over the coherence and trustworthiness of the worldview itself. In the case of Christianity, many locate that point of weakness in the existence of suffering within the world. In the case of atheism, it is the persistence of belief in God, when there is supposedly no God in which to believe.

Until recently, western atheism had waited patiently, believing that belief in God would simply die out. But now, a whiff of panic is evident. Far from dying out, belief in God has rebounded, and seems set to exercise still greater influence in both the public and private spheres. The God Delusion expresses this deep anxiety, partly reflecting an intense distaste for religion. Yet there is something deeper here, often overlooked in the heat of debate. The anxiety is that the coherence of atheism itself is at stake. Might the unexpected resurgence of religion persuade many that atheism itself is fatally flawed as a worldview?

That's what Dawkins is worried about. The shrill, aggressive rhetoric of his God Delusion masks a deep insecurity about the public credibility of atheism. The God Delusion seems more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with religious believers, and others seeking for truth. (Might this be because the writer is himself an atheist whose faith is faltering?) Religious believers will be dismayed by its ritual stereotyping of religion, and will find its manifest lack of fairness a significant disincentive to take its arguments and concerns seriously. Seekers after truth who would not consider themselves religious may also find themselves shocked by Dawkins' aggressive rhetoric, his substitution of personal creedal statements for objective engagement with evidence, his hectoring and bullying tone towards "dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads," and his utter determination to find nothing but fault with religion of any kind.

It is this deep, unsettling anxiety about the future of atheism which explains the high degree of dogmatism and aggressive rhetorical style of this new secular fundamentalism. The dogmatism of the work has been the subject of intense criticism in the secular press, reflecting growing alarm within the secularist community about the damage that Dawkins is doing to their public reputation. Many of those who might be expected to support Dawkins are running for cover, trying to distance themselves from this embarrassment.

To give an example: The God Delusion trumpets the fact that its author was recently voted one of the world's three leading intellectuals. This survey took place among the readers of Prospect magazine in November 2005. So what did this same Prospect magazine make of the book? Its reviewer was shocked at this "incurious, dogmatic, rambling, and self-contradictory" book. The title of the review? "Dawkins the dogmatist."

But what of the arguments themselves? The God Delusion is often little more than an aggregation of convenient factoids, suitably overstated to achieve maximum impact, and loosely arranged to suggest that they constitute an argument. This makes dealing with its "arguments" a little problematical, in that the work frequently substitutes aggressive, bullying rhetoric for serious evidence-based argument. Dawkins often treats evidence as something to shoehorn into his preconceived theoretical framework. Religion is persistently and consistently portrayed in the worst possible way, mimicking the worst features of religious fundamentalism's portrayal of atheism.

Space is limited, so let's look his two core arguments -- that religion can be explained away on scientific grounds, and that religion leads to violence. Dawkins dogmatically insists that religious belief is "blind trust," which refuses to take due account of evidence, or subject itself to examination. So why do people believe in God, when there is no God to believe in? For Dawkins, religion is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes. His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.


Digg!

See more stories tagged with: richard dawkins, god, atheism, religion, fundamentalism

Alister McGrath is Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University. He has co-authored the forthcoming book "The Dawkins Delusion: Atheist fundamentalism and the denial of the divine" (InterVarsity Press) with his wife, Joanna Collicutt McGrath, who is a psychologist.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from AlterNet! Sign up now »


Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 26, 2007 12:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gregor Mendel - Augustinian abbot; discovered the genetic basis of heredity via detailed and painstaking experiments with pea plants.

Louis Pasteur - Devout Christian, made fundamental contributions to microbiology and medicine (pasteuration, vaccination) and also demonstrated that life would not spontaneously form from simple nutients

George Lemaitre - Belgian Catholic priest who made fudamental contributions to Big Bang cosmology theories; contemporary of Einstein.

So they weren't atheists... so what? Believe what you want to believe - isn't that a primary foundation of the US Declaration of Independence? I mean, you can believe whatever you want to believe... and noone will burn you at the stake, either. Though I do find it easy to imagine Dawkins in the robes of the Spanish Inquisition...(Monty Python version, that is...)

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» clarification Posted by: alternetleslie
» Of strawmen and gods... Posted by: Tatarize
McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: Lector on Jan 26, 2007 1:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McGrath’s analysis here is unacceptable and he is just as shrill as the God-squads that have been in charge for the last two thousand years and “there is little point in arguing with such fundamentalist nonsense”, to use his own words. The “faith-heads” have always been aggressive, shrill, petualant, and have screamed louder than atheists. Atheists didn’t dare; they would either be put to death or ostracized. Now it’s time for some atheists to be impolite if they want to.

“Dawkins often treats evidence as something to shoehorn into his preconceived theoretical framework” And religion doesn’t? And McGrath has no preconceived framework?

“that religion can be explained away on scientific grounds, and that religion leads to violence.”Not all, but history is full of examples that religion has it’s hand in it

“Dawkins dogmatically insists that religious belief is "blind trust," Read the Bible; it insists you must have faith and faith is "blind trust" so how is Dawkins wrong?

“So why do people believe in God, when there is no God to believe in?” What kind of ridiculous circular logic is this? “For Dawkins, religion is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes.” And the stories that have founded religions make more sense? “His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.” What is more superficial than the stories of the Bible and other religions? Jack and the Beanstalk then has just as much credibility.

“So are all ideas viruses of the mind?” This is the only idea I can agree with here; maybe we’d all be better off with Zen.

“But who decides what is "rational" and "scientific"? Dawkins does not see this as a problem, believing that he can easily categorize such ideas, separating the sheep from the goats.” But who decides which religion is true and which is not?

“The main argument of The God Delusion, however, is that religion leads to violence and oppression…the harsh reality is that religious and anti-religious violence has happened."

McGrath doesn’t have a leg to stand on here either. Since most societies, with few exceptions, are full of religious institutions…there very few people who don’t believe in some sky god or other fantasy that when they die they will be propelled into another world or past life in some form and ultimately all this leads to arguments mixed in with political agendas. Let’s face it, religion only can add to the problem

the Soviet Union's crushing of religion relied on its own authority, but wars started in the name of religion are no different; it’s just relying on another authority. McGrath constantly uses the Soviet Union as an example of the bad behavior of atheists. This is sad. He hasn't understood or read Russian political history.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Miracles Posted by: Lector
» RE: Miracles Posted by: blitzmesser
» Tolerance, people... Posted by: aebartle
» RE: Tolerance, people... Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Tolerance, people... Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: Tolerance, people... Posted by: justAnEgg
THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: charlieparisek on Jan 26, 2007 1:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this breathtakingly vacuous article misses the point. Let's examine the flip side of Alister McGrath's review using his own logic (and most of his words). We shall thereby reduce his argument to the sputter it really is.

Here goes:

Space is limited, so let's look (at) two core arguments -- that atheism can be explained away on religious grounds, and that atheism leads to an empty, soulless life. McGrath implies that atheistiic belief is blind trust, which refuses to take due account of theological evidence, or subject itself to examination. So why do people believe in atheism, when there is God? For McGrath, atheism is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes. His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.

For example, consider this argument. Since belief in atheism is utterly irrational (one of McGrath's assumptions, by the way), there has to be some biological or psychological way of explaining why so many people -- in fact, by far the greater part of the world's population -- fall victim to such a delusion. One of the explanations that McGrath offers is that believing in atheism is like being infected with a contagious virus, which spreads throughout entire populations. Yet the analogy -- belief in atheism is like a virus -- seems to then assume ontological substance. Belief in atheism is a virus of the mind.


Get the point?

I don't know the answer to the GOD IS /GOD IS NOT argument, but if anything I would rather tend to give Mr Dawkins the benefit of the doubt if all that the GOD IS crowd can come up with is thinly veiled religious rants from the likes of Mr Alister McGrath.

Perhaps the good man was under some pressure to justify his tenure as Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University? If so, it would behoove him (and the University) to do better than this.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: factbased
» DEEP THINKING FROM factbased Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: sayswho
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION Posted by: Tatarize
Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: uncleboko on Jan 26, 2007 3:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trouble with his critics is they are doctors of spin - largely without substantive argument, but heavy on attitude adjustment by direct emotional appeal. Calling someone 'shrill and aggressive' is pejorative but without rational context in the case of atheism as espoused by Dawkins. Shrillness and aggression are actually characteristics of the emotive god botherers who bang on your doors on Sunday mornings demanding that you justify your atheism by explaining why no 'missing link' fossils have been found or how the human eye could possibly evolve by blind chance...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Religious credibility?? An Oxymoron?
Posted by: marid on Jan 26, 2007 4:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another Theologian barking at Dawkins. Shrill, Arrogant, strident, you bet the religious are getting worse everyday. Remember we have freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. Dawkins comments about our founding fathers mesh with what I have researched. Until Catholic priests go to state and federal prisons for child abuse, Evangelical snake oil salesmen live real lives of piety and sacrifice, Muslims read all of the Koran not simply cherry pick the parts they choose, and all the rest of the religions stay out of peoples faces and our governments, none of these religions have any moral ground to stake out.

Oh I forgot, I am not allowed to question any religion. Sorry for being rational.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Freedom From Reality? Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Freedom From Reality? Posted by: marid
» Thank's For Clarifying. Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Freedom From Reality? Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Freedom From Reality? Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Freedom From Reality? Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Freedom From Reality? Posted by: MrAllen
» "Dear John," Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Freedom From Reality? Posted by: bornxeyed
You're half right... it's no better.
Posted by: Tatarize on Jan 26, 2007 4:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McGrath would have us believe that Mao and Stalin are the logical result of a atheistic worldview. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stalinism and Maoism aren't examples of rationality and reason run amok. They are atheist in that they didn't possess a belief in god(s), nothing more nothing less. Beyond the lack of belief, you can be a hard right Republican or democidal dictator, though most atheists are liberal/libertarian.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: THIAHB on Jan 26, 2007 4:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I doubt that the author of this article actually read The God Delusion. If he did, he is engaging in a disingenuous portrayal of its contents.

He tells us that Dawkins’ core arguments are that God can be disproved scientifically and that religion leads to violence, both of which are simplistic misrepresentations.

Dawkins doesn’t say God can be disproved scientifically – rather he argues that relying on God to explain the wonderful complexity of life, the universe and everything, sticks you with an even bigger problem of explaining where God came from. There is no need for God because Evolution, a powerful and subtle underlying principle, is adequate to the task.

The author then claims that Dawkins believes that belief in God is a “mind virus” – I think Dawkins would use the term “meme” – and challenges Dawkins to produce a meme.

In fact, Dawkins points to a vast body of research showing that faith has roots in the structures of the brain, the psychology of the parent-child bond and social conditioning.

“So are all ideas viruses of the mind?” the author asks. Yes, because a meme is a theoretical unit of information transmission, very similar to the concept of a gene with all the implications this has for memetic variation and self-preservation.

Again misrepresenting Dawkins, the author says Dawkins classifies religious ideas as mental viruses, while scientific ideas rise above this classification. No, all ideas are memes.

The author then trots out that old chestnut: who decides what is rational and scientific? I thought theologians had given up on this argument, but some still try to clothe religious beliefs in “science” in a bid for credibility.

Science is based on the adherence to the scientific method. Religion is not scientific because it cannot provide evidence nor can its claims be replicated by independent observers.

The author seems to accept this point but rather than accept that religion alone is unproven, he attempts to drag science down with the argument that it’s impossible to prove anything!

What’s the point in talking then? We should all take our toys and go home. Of course, this argument that everything is subjective is nonsense because individuals, through independent observation of the same phenomenon, can reach agreement on objective facts.

The author then moves on, summarising Dawkins’ argument as: religion leads to violence. This is a rather inelegant precis of Dawkins’ point which is that religions need to suppress opposing ideas. In extreme cases this leads to violence but even the most peaceful of religious people can be remarkably resistant, even hostile, towards those who question their faith.

The author then attempts another of the party tricks for which the faithful are famous: the conflation of atheism with other non-religious ideas such as socialism. Atheists commit acts of violence, too, but it’s difficult to think of a case where they did it in the name of atheism! Sadly, there are too many examples of violence committed in the name of religion. And the trappings of religion are used by dictators who capitalise on people’s weakness for faith, eg blind faith in socialism.

The God Delusion was a plea for reason, a rebuke to the idea that having faith without reason is a virtue. Far from being shrill or defensive, it was a positive statement on behalf of people who have rejected faith in favour of rationality.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Blind faith is no virtue Posted by: thogatthog
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue Posted by: eric555
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue Posted by: eric555
Dawkins' failure
Posted by: gsmiley on Jan 26, 2007 4:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The universality of religion in terms of Darwinian selection suggests it must be extremely valuable in the great game of life: survival and reproduction - or it would hardly have persisted. That doesn't mean for a moment that any one of the nine hundred or more distinct and mutually exclusive 'living' gods and even more multitudinous schisms of their followers are or could ever be real or true.
How this works might best be looked at in a historical context. We are all the descendants of usurpers at some point in the past, and all those campaigns of settlement and conquest have been authorized by a true god who rejoiced in the retreats of the skraelings, the murder of the Amalekites, Canaanaites, and approved the civilizing of savages even as they were shot, poisoned, subjugated; their lands, properties and women confiscated and abused. (Although the Soviets accomplished this without God they too had a unifying idea which was not atheism but ownership by the proletariat of the means of production. Unfortunately this turned out to be even less effective than private property).
This just happens to be a limited world and somehow our conflicting social and selfish instincts have to be put in the right balance in the right time and place if we are to go forth and multiply in the face of some pretty tough competition. The exponential mathematics of growth , unlike its justifying theologies, is incontrovertible. A meager 2% p.a. population growth, doubling every forty years or so will see us with standing room only in less than five centuries. Long before that I suggest the followers of the TRUE god (proof lies in victory just read the Bible, Koran or whatever) will have vastly reduced the competition whether by war, or happy accident like crop failure or plague and I am sure the last of our ridiculous species, dying of heat stroke in some cave in northern Greenland will go dickering and importuning the almighty, everlasting figment of his imagination that got him to this place; that will be religion's final triumph and failure. Dawkins' is his lack of compassion for a nearly sapient species still clinging to his sustaining delusions.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Dawkins' failure Posted by: jontv
» RE: Dawkins' failure Posted by: gsmiley
» Your failure Posted by: bornxeyed
Dawkins evangelists for atheism
Posted by: Door man on Jan 26, 2007 5:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I simply can't understand what the problem is here. Dawkins is one man on the otherside of the argument that is made up of hundreds of vitriolic prostilitisers from Pat Robertson to Jerry Fallwell.

When Dawkins begins to wield the same amount of power and influence that these fellows do complete with Universities and meeting halls, then I will have some concern; but not until then.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Dawkins evangelists for atheism Posted by: MartianBachelor
PLEASE Alistar
Posted by: Lois on Jan 26, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is an article like this doing in Alternet! We are boggled with religious defensiveness every day in every press.
Please.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Cooptation is the real issue Posted by: Davidco
» RE: adversarial balance Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: adversarial balance Posted by: fork
» RE: adversarial balance Posted by: klondike_yukon
» RE: PLEASE Alistar Posted by: Blabdy
McGrath's argument has no substance; is this the best he can do?
Posted by: Moonray on Jan 26, 2007 5:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is merely sophistry and intellectual tap-dancing dressed up as serious argumentation.

Is it "aggressive" to point out that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and not 5, as the theologians would have us believe? What nonsense.

McGrath and his fellow superstition-peddlers have no substance to their arguments so they are left to whine, obfuscate and prevaricate -- which is what ministers do best.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

God's Front Man
Posted by: hquain on Jan 26, 2007 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was a nice guy -- or so we learn from those who wrote stories about him decades after his death, never having encountered him in the flesh. Therefore, religion is good ("at its best" -- the Autobahn argument) and God exists.

Those who deny this compelling deduction deserve every insulting adjective you can attach to their names, along with a few adverbs attached to the adjectives.

It appears that the job description for "Oxford theologian" is rather like that for White House Press Secretary.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» brilliantly said Posted by: anniedine
Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: edraven on Jan 26, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are still trying to make atheism into a religion. You have added "world view" as a description, and kept the old "secular" around so that you can make believers think that not believing in god is as much a religion as Islam. You have to know that you are lying to make your point. Shame on you. Not believing in something; Christ, Thor, or the Tooth Fairy, is not a world view. Belief in something without a shred of evidence is hard for me to understand.

Christians who actually read the entire Bible, not just the carefully picked verses that somewhat seem rational, will find the most disgusting treatment of humans by your so called God.

...And logic: the book says that God gave his only begotten son, so that whosoever believes in him will have everlasting life. When I was young and a Lutheran, I thought that was one of the most beautiful things that I had ever read. When I grew up and found out that Santa Claus was not real, I thought about that beautiful passage. Why would an all powerful God create a son, then kill him for no reason. God could have just given us everlasting life, if we believed in him.
Most of the things that God did in the Bible were unnecessary for an all powerful God. They seem to really be the ravings of ignorant people trying to control others. Like the Witch Doctors.

If you can't defend your faith (delusion) without using lies, personal attacks, or parroting the flawed logic of others - - maybe there is nothing to defend.

Ed Graham

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: BUSHisLiar on Jan 26, 2007 6:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being anti-religious is not a left-right issue or a culture issue, it's a reality-fantasy issue and a sanity issue. This country, and the world at large, would be much better off if we were to shed the yoke of religion and treat religion for what it really is, a pestilence upon mankind. People who believe in God are crazy, and this fear-induced mass hysteria has been fed by the charlatans and hucksters who make a living by fleecing the bible-thumping crazies. America needs to grow up, like much of the industrialized world has, and say "We are a sane people, we are a people of science and higher learning, we do not subscribe to fear-based superstitions and wives-tales". Each and every time the media treats the religion and non-religion debate as if both sides have a valid stance, we all lose. It's a false debate, Falwell, Robertson, Dobson and their ilk should be treated like the raving lunatics they are, they have all the credibility of the wackjobs preaching on the street corners who proclaim the world will end soon. The media and mankind must break away from this insanity and embrace a reality-based future.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: no predictions Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: no predictions Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: no predictions Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions Posted by: sasha40
» RE: no predictions Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions Posted by: sasha40
» RE: no predictions Posted by: ailiergauche
» Brilliantly put, sg... Posted by: aebartle
Historical Theology
Posted by: chalet on Jan 26, 2007 6:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is 'historical theology,' if it is anything? What is it for? What does it do? Why do we need it? Why is someone paid to "teach' it? Or is it pretending to 'scientifically' support organized religion?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Historical Theology Posted by: juergen
Boring!!!!!
Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 26, 2007 6:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Theists - atheists. Thesis - antithesis. Excuse me, but this debate is tired. It is time for synthesis.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Science v. Religion.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jan 26, 2007 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll take scientific reasoning over faith any day.

How can one evaluate reality? This is the core question. Science is the answer.

To anyone who believes in God, answer this:

If god is all powerful, then god is responsible for all the evil in the world.

If humankind has "free will," then god is not all powerful.

This in not my original idea.

You can see where this is going, right?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Tai chi nonsense Posted by: Ripcord
» Completely wrong. Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Incompletely wrong. Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Incompletely wrong. Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Incompletely wrong. Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: B.F. Skinner Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: eric555
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Science v. Religion. Posted by: mindcryme
St. Paul the father of Christianity?
Posted by: daniel1982 on Jan 26, 2007 6:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It was Paul who invented the idea of taking the Jewish God to the Gentiles. Hartung puts it more bluntly than I dare: "Jesus would have turned over in his grave if he had known that Paul would be taking his plan to the pigs." Many Christian readers of this will be astonished at this bizarre misrepresentation of things being presented as if it were gospel truth. Yet, I regret to say, it is representative of Dawkins' method: ridicule, distort, belittle, and demonize."

The few religion electives I took at my university (University of Toronto) certainly held the view that Paul essentially created Christianity - maybe because that was a secular university which had no baggage of dogma?

I'm disappointed with this review though. Yes Dawkins wrote that religion creates conflict where there should be none - I think that goes without saying. Jews in American are indistinguishable from the mainstream Caucasian population, yet that community is frequently the target of attacks. Get rid of religion and thats one less thing to worry about.

Of course the review didn't even touch on Dawkins' criticism of why believe in a God in the absence of evidence, and further .. why believe in YOUR God out of all of the other ones (whether your God is the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God or the Hindu Gods). If I become a Catholic and there are about 1 billion Catholics in the world, I have about 1 in 6 chance of being right and going to heaven.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Religion ≠ Theism
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 26, 2007 7:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term theist is commonly tossed round by atheist advocates against anyone, no matter how reasonable, when any faith is mentioned and I think that it is a straw man for purposes of argument. Atheists have a legitimate beef with people who try to arrogantly force religion on them but cross the line when they fail to return the favor with people who freely choose to hold to or express a faith. The problem is not faith or non-faith -- it's the personal arrogance that one is so right that no other view can be seriously entertained.

If you, the reader of this, worship some being or beings- good for you. If you choose not to, however defined, good for you as well. Go on and express your faith or non-faith in a manner respectful of others. Just do not force it down the throat of others, especially since the results are not in.

The critical difference, for this discussion, between atheists and others who doubt or deny God is their absolute insistence that they are absolutely correct. This attitude is no different than that of some crackpot televangelist predicting the end of the world for fun and profit. Since no person has seen god & humans do not have universal knowledge, it is just as arrogant to be aggressively atheist as it is to be aggressively a member of any faith.

Until the general perception of atheists is that of a more tolerant group of people, they will continue to be viewed as a bunch of extremist nutballs by many. A little tolerance and a little less arrogance would go a long way to acceptance in the culture at large.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: eligion ≠ Theism Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism Posted by: hellofriends
» Agnosticism makes more sense Posted by: aaronfetty
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism Posted by: famouspipeliner
Shrill
Posted by: cellis56 on Jan 26, 2007 7:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Psychoanalyzing someone who feels cornered by the escalating shriek of religious fanaticism? Someone distraught over the eagerness of the faithful to drain our democracy of its last ounce of human decency? What sophistry.

And anyway, why the polemic against an ideology gasping for air in a country happily inhaling ignorance? A country that put Darwin on a hit list to maintain its fictions? (Ranking second from last place in the world in its faith in science.)

Relax. You've got atheists on the run but forget about stamping out the last vestiges of intelligent life.