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The Dawkins Delusion
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The God Delusion has established Dawkins as the world's most high-profile atheist polemicist, who directs a withering criticism against every form of religion. He is out to convert his readers. "If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." Not that he thinks that this is particularly likely; after all, he suggests, "dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads are immune to argument." Along with Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris, Dawkins directs a ferocious trade of criticism against religion in general and Christianity in particular. In this article, I propose to explore two major questions. First, why this sudden outburst of aggression? Second, how reliable are Dawkins' criticisms of religion?
Let's begin by looking at the first question. Every worldview, whether religious or not, has its point of vulnerability. There is a tension between theory and experience, raising questions over the coherence and trustworthiness of the worldview itself. In the case of Christianity, many locate that point of weakness in the existence of suffering within the world. In the case of atheism, it is the persistence of belief in God, when there is supposedly no God in which to believe.
Until recently, western atheism had waited patiently, believing that belief in God would simply die out. But now, a whiff of panic is evident. Far from dying out, belief in God has rebounded, and seems set to exercise still greater influence in both the public and private spheres. The God Delusion expresses this deep anxiety, partly reflecting an intense distaste for religion. Yet there is something deeper here, often overlooked in the heat of debate. The anxiety is that the coherence of atheism itself is at stake. Might the unexpected resurgence of religion persuade many that atheism itself is fatally flawed as a worldview?
That's what Dawkins is worried about. The shrill, aggressive rhetoric of his God Delusion masks a deep insecurity about the public credibility of atheism. The God Delusion seems more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with religious believers, and others seeking for truth. (Might this be because the writer is himself an atheist whose faith is faltering?) Religious believers will be dismayed by its ritual stereotyping of religion, and will find its manifest lack of fairness a significant disincentive to take its arguments and concerns seriously. Seekers after truth who would not consider themselves religious may also find themselves shocked by Dawkins' aggressive rhetoric, his substitution of personal creedal statements for objective engagement with evidence, his hectoring and bullying tone towards "dyed-in-the-wool faith-heads," and his utter determination to find nothing but fault with religion of any kind.
It is this deep, unsettling anxiety about the future of atheism which explains the high degree of dogmatism and aggressive rhetorical style of this new secular fundamentalism. The dogmatism of the work has been the subject of intense criticism in the secular press, reflecting growing alarm within the secularist community about the damage that Dawkins is doing to their public reputation. Many of those who might be expected to support Dawkins are running for cover, trying to distance themselves from this embarrassment.
To give an example: The God Delusion trumpets the fact that its author was recently voted one of the world's three leading intellectuals. This survey took place among the readers of Prospect magazine in November 2005. So what did this same Prospect magazine make of the book? Its reviewer was shocked at this "incurious, dogmatic, rambling, and self-contradictory" book. The title of the review? "Dawkins the dogmatist."
But what of the arguments themselves? The God Delusion is often little more than an aggregation of convenient factoids, suitably overstated to achieve maximum impact, and loosely arranged to suggest that they constitute an argument. This makes dealing with its "arguments" a little problematical, in that the work frequently substitutes aggressive, bullying rhetoric for serious evidence-based argument. Dawkins often treats evidence as something to shoehorn into his preconceived theoretical framework. Religion is persistently and consistently portrayed in the worst possible way, mimicking the worst features of religious fundamentalism's portrayal of atheism.
Space is limited, so let's look his two core arguments -- that religion can be explained away on scientific grounds, and that religion leads to violence. Dawkins dogmatically insists that religious belief is "blind trust," which refuses to take due account of evidence, or subject itself to examination. So why do people believe in God, when there is no God to believe in? For Dawkins, religion is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes. His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.
For example, consider this important argument in The God Delusion. Since belief in God is utterly irrational (one of Dawkins' core beliefs, by the way), there has to be some biological or psychological way of explaining why so many people -- in fact, by far the greater part of the world's population -- fall victim to such a delusion. One of the explanations that Dawkins offers is that believing in God is like being infected with a contagious virus, which spreads throughout entire populations. Yet the analogy -- belief in God is like a virus -- seems to then assume ontological substance. Belief in God is a virus of the mind. Yet biological viruses are not merely hypothesized; they can be identified, observed, and their structure and mode of operation determined. Yet this hypothetical "virus of the mind" is an essentially polemical construction, devised to discredit ideas that Dawkins does not like.
So are all ideas viruses of the mind? Dawkins draws an absolute distinction between rational, scientific and evidence-based ideas, and spurious, irrational notions -- such as religious beliefs. The latter, not the former, count as mental viruses. But who decides what is "rational" and "scientific"? Dawkins does not see this as a problem, believing that he can easily categorize such ideas, separating the sheep from the goats.
Except it all turns out to be horribly complicated, losing the simplicity and elegance that marks a great idea. For instance, every worldview -- religious or secular -- ends up falling into the category of "belief systems," precisely because it cannot be proved. That is simply the nature of worldviews, and everyone knows it. It prevents nobody from holding a worldview in the first place, and doing so with complete intellectual integrity in the second. In the end, Dawkins' idea simply implodes, falling victim to his own subjective judgement of what is rational and true. It's not an idea that is taken seriously within the scientific community, and can safely be disregarded.
The main argument of The God Delusion, however, is that religion leads to violence and oppression. Dawkins treats this as defining characteristic of religion, airbrushing out of his somewhat skimpy account of the roots of violence any suggestion that it might be the result of political fanaticism -- or even atheism. He is adamant that he himself, as a good atheist, would never, ever fly airplanes into skyscrapers, or commit any other outrageous act of violence or oppression. Good for him. Neither would I. Yet the harsh reality is that religious and anti-religious violence has happened, and is likely to continue to do so.
As someone who grew up in Northern Ireland, I know about religious violence only too well. There is no doubt that religion can generate violence. But it's not alone in this. The history of the twentieth century has given us a frightening awareness of how political extremism can equally cause violence. In Latin America, millions of people seem to have "disappeared" as a result of ruthless campaigns of violence by right wing politicians and their militias. In Cambodia, Pol Pot eliminated his millions in the name of socialism.
The rise of the Soviet Union was of particular significance. Lenin regarded the elimination of religion as central to the socialist revolution, and put in place measures designed to eradicate religious beliefs through the "protracted use of violence." One of the greatest tragedies of this dark era in human history was that those who sought to eliminate religious belief through violence and oppression believed they were justified in doing so. They were accountable to no higher authority than the state.
In one of his more bizarre creedal statements as an atheist, Dawkins insists that there is "not the smallest evidence" that atheism systematically influences people to do bad things. It's an astonishing, naïve, and somewhat sad statement. The facts are otherwise. In their efforts to enforce their atheist ideology, the Soviet authorities systematically destroyed and eliminated the vast majority of churches and priests during the period 1918-41. The statistics make for dreadful reading. This violence and repression was undertaken in pursuit of an atheist agenda -- the elimination of religion. This doesn't fit with Dawkins' highly sanitized, idealized picture of atheism. Dawkins is clearly an ivory tower atheist, disconnected from the real and brutal world of the twentieth century.
Dawkins develops a criticism that is often directed against religion in works of atheist apologetics -- namely, that it encourages the formation and maintenance of "in-groups" and "out-groups." For Dawkins, removing religion is essential if this form of social demarcation and discrimination is to be defeated. But what, many will wonder, about Jesus of Nazareth? Wasn't this a core theme of his teaching -- that the love of God transcends, and subsequently abrogates, such social divisions?
Dawkins' analysis here is unacceptable. There are points at which his ignorance of religion ceases to be amusing, and simply becomes risible. In dealing with this question he draws extensively on a paper published in Skeptic magazine in 1995 by John Hartung, which asserts that -- and here I cite Dawkin's summary: Jesus was a devotee of the same in-group morality -- coupled with out-group hostility -- that was taken for granted in the Old Testament. Jesus was a loyal Jew. It was Paul who invented the idea of taking the Jewish God to the Gentiles. Hartung puts it more bluntly than I dare: "Jesus would have turned over in his grave if he had known that Paul would be taking his plan to the pigs." Many Christian readers of this will be astonished at this bizarre misrepresentation of things being presented as if it were gospel truth. Yet, I regret to say, it is representative of Dawkins' method: ridicule, distort, belittle, and demonize. Still, at least it will give Christian readers an idea of the lack of any scholarly objectivity or basic human sense of fairness which now pervades atheist fundamentalism.
There is little point in arguing with such fundamentalist nonsense. It's about as worthwhile as trying to persuade a flat-earther that the world is actually round. Dawkins seems to be so deeply trapped within his own worldview that he cannot assess alternatives. Yet many readers would value a more reliable and informed response, rather than accepting Dawkins' increasingly tedious antireligious tirades. Let's look at things as they actually stand.
In the first place, Jesus explicitly extends the Old Testament command to "love your neighbour" to "love your enemy" (Matthew 5.44). Far from endorsing "out-group hostility," Jesus both commended and commanded an ethic of "out-group affirmation." As this feature of the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth is so well-known and distinctive, it is inexcusable that Dawkins should make no mention of it. Christians may certainly be accused of failing to live up to this demand. But it is there, right at the heart of the Christian ethic.
In the second place, many readers would point out that the familiar story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10) makes it clear that the command to "love your neighbour" extends far beyond Judaism. (Indeed, this aspect of the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth seems to have resulted in people suspecting Jesus of actually being a Samaritan: see John 8.48). It is certainly true that Jesus, a Palestinian Jew, gave priority to the Jews as God's chosen people, but his definition of who was a "true Jew" was radically broad. It included those who had excluded themselves from Judaism by intimate collaborators with Roman occupying forces. One of the main charges levelled against Jesus by his critics within Judaism was his open acceptance of these out-groups. Indeed a substantial part of his teaching can be seen as a defence of his behaviour towards them. Jesus' welcome of marginalized groups, who inhabited an ambiguous position between "in" and "out" is also well attested in accounts of his willingness to touch those considered by his culture to be ritually unclean (for instance Matthew 8.3, Matthew 9.20-25).
So what are we to make of this shrill and petulant manifesto of atheist fundamentalism? Aware of the moral obligation of a critic of religion to deal with this phenomenon at its best and most persuasive, many atheists have been disturbed by Dawkins' crude stereotypes, vastly over-simplified binary oppositions ("science is good, religion is bad"), straw men, and seemingly pathological hostility towards religion. Might The God Delusion actually backfire, and end up persuading people that atheism is just as intolerant, doctrinaire and disagreeable as the worst that religion can offer? As the atheist philosopher Michael Ruse commented recently: "The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an atheist."
Dawkins seems to think that saying something more loudly and confidently, while ignoring or trivializing counter-evidence, will persuade the open-minded that religious belief is a type of delusion. For the gullible and credulous, it is the confidence with which something is said that persuades, rather than the evidence offered in its support. Dawkins' astonishingly superficial and inaccurate portrayal of Christianity will simply lead Christians to conclude that he does not know what he is talking about -- and that his atheism may therefore rest on a series of errors and misunderstandings. Ironically the ultimate achievement of The God Delusion for modern atheism may be to suggest that it is actually atheism itself may be a delusion about God.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 26, 2007 12:37 AM
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Louis Pasteur - Devout Christian, made fundamental contributions to microbiology and medicine (pasteuration, vaccination) and also demonstrated that life would not spontaneously form from simple nutients
George Lemaitre - Belgian Catholic priest who made fudamental contributions to Big Bang cosmology theories; contemporary of Einstein.
So they weren't atheists... so what? Believe what you want to believe - isn't that a primary foundation of the US Declaration of Independence? I mean, you can believe whatever you want to believe... and noone will burn you at the stake, either. Though I do find it easy to imagine Dawkins in the robes of the Spanish Inquisition...(Monty Python version, that is...)
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» RE: Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
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» RE: Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
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» Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» clarification
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» Of strawmen and gods...
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
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Posted by: Lector on Jan 26, 2007 1:08 AM
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“Dawkins often treats evidence as something to shoehorn into his preconceived theoretical framework” And religion doesn’t? And McGrath has no preconceived framework?
“that religion can be explained away on scientific grounds, and that religion leads to violence.”Not all, but history is full of examples that religion has it’s hand in it
“Dawkins dogmatically insists that religious belief is "blind trust," Read the Bible; it insists you must have faith and faith is "blind trust" so how is Dawkins wrong?
“So why do people believe in God, when there is no God to believe in?” What kind of ridiculous circular logic is this? “For Dawkins, religion is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes.” And the stories that have founded religions make more sense? “His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.” What is more superficial than the stories of the Bible and other religions? Jack and the Beanstalk then has just as much credibility.
“So are all ideas viruses of the mind?” This is the only idea I can agree with here; maybe we’d all be better off with Zen.
“But who decides what is "rational" and "scientific"? Dawkins does not see this as a problem, believing that he can easily categorize such ideas, separating the sheep from the goats.” But who decides which religion is true and which is not?
“The main argument of The God Delusion, however, is that religion leads to violence and oppression…the harsh reality is that religious and anti-religious violence has happened."
McGrath doesn’t have a leg to stand on here either. Since most societies, with few exceptions, are full of religious institutions…there very few people who don’t believe in some sky god or other fantasy that when they die they will be propelled into another world or past life in some form and ultimately all this leads to arguments mixed in with political agendas. Let’s face it, religion only can add to the problem
the Soviet Union's crushing of religion relied on its own authority, but wars started in the name of religion are no different; it’s just relying on another authority. McGrath constantly uses the Soviet Union as an example of the bad behavior of atheists. This is sad. He hasn't understood or read Russian political history.
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
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» Miracles
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» RE: Miracles
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» Tolerance, people...
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» RE: Tolerance, people...
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» RE: Tolerance, people...
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Posted by: charlieparisek on Jan 26, 2007 1:28 AM
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Here goes:
Space is limited, so let's look (at) two core arguments -- that atheism can be explained away on religious grounds, and that atheism leads to an empty, soulless life. McGrath implies that atheistiic belief is blind trust, which refuses to take due account of theological evidence, or subject itself to examination. So why do people believe in atheism, when there is God? For McGrath, atheism is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes. His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.
For example, consider this argument. Since belief in atheism is utterly irrational (one of McGrath's assumptions, by the way), there has to be some biological or psychological way of explaining why so many people -- in fact, by far the greater part of the world's population -- fall victim to such a delusion. One of the explanations that McGrath offers is that believing in atheism is like being infected with a contagious virus, which spreads throughout entire populations. Yet the analogy -- belief in atheism is like a virus -- seems to then assume ontological substance. Belief in atheism is a virus of the mind.
Get the point?
I don't know the answer to the GOD IS /GOD IS NOT argument, but if anything I would rather tend to give Mr Dawkins the benefit of the doubt if all that the GOD IS crowd can come up with is thinly veiled religious rants from the likes of Mr Alister McGrath.
Perhaps the good man was under some pressure to justify his tenure as Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University? If so, it would behoove him (and the University) to do better than this.
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
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» DEEP THINKING FROM factbased
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
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Posted by: uncleboko on Jan 26, 2007 3:26 AM
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» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
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Posted by: marid on Jan 26, 2007 4:04 AM
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Oh I forgot, I am not allowed to question any religion. Sorry for being rational.
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» Freedom From Reality?
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» Thank's For Clarifying.
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» Might I Suggest A Kindly Missionary Atheist Send Me A Free Copy?
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» "Dear John,"
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Posted by: Tatarize on Jan 26, 2007 4:05 AM
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» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
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» Actually there's a difference there.
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» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
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» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
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Posted by: THIAHB on Jan 26, 2007 4:39 AM
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He tells us that Dawkins’ core arguments are that God can be disproved scientifically and that religion leads to violence, both of which are simplistic misrepresentations.
Dawkins doesn’t say God can be disproved scientifically – rather he argues that relying on God to explain the wonderful complexity of life, the universe and everything, sticks you with an even bigger problem of explaining where God came from. There is no need for God because Evolution, a powerful and subtle underlying principle, is adequate to the task.
The author then claims that Dawkins believes that belief in God is a “mind virus” – I think Dawkins would use the term “meme” – and challenges Dawkins to produce a meme.
In fact, Dawkins points to a vast body of research showing that faith has roots in the structures of the brain, the psychology of the parent-child bond and social conditioning.
“So are all ideas viruses of the mind?” the author asks. Yes, because a meme is a theoretical unit of information transmission, very similar to the concept of a gene with all the implications this has for memetic variation and self-preservation.
Again misrepresenting Dawkins, the author says Dawkins classifies religious ideas as mental viruses, while scientific ideas rise above this classification. No, all ideas are memes.
The author then trots out that old chestnut: who decides what is rational and scientific? I thought theologians had given up on this argument, but some still try to clothe religious beliefs in “science” in a bid for credibility.
Science is based on the adherence to the scientific method. Religion is not scientific because it cannot provide evidence nor can its claims be replicated by independent observers.
The author seems to accept this point but rather than accept that religion alone is unproven, he attempts to drag science down with the argument that it’s impossible to prove anything!
What’s the point in talking then? We should all take our toys and go home. Of course, this argument that everything is subjective is nonsense because individuals, through independent observation of the same phenomenon, can reach agreement on objective facts.
The author then moves on, summarising Dawkins’ argument as: religion leads to violence. This is a rather inelegant precis of Dawkins’ point which is that religions need to suppress opposing ideas. In extreme cases this leads to violence but even the most peaceful of religious people can be remarkably resistant, even hostile, towards those who question their faith.
The author then attempts another of the party tricks for which the faithful are famous: the conflation of atheism with other non-religious ideas such as socialism. Atheists commit acts of violence, too, but it’s difficult to think of a case where they did it in the name of atheism! Sadly, there are too many examples of violence committed in the name of religion. And the trappings of religion are used by dictators who capitalise on people’s weakness for faith, eg blind faith in socialism.
The God Delusion was a plea for reason, a rebuke to the idea that having faith without reason is a virtue. Far from being shrill or defensive, it was a positive statement on behalf of people who have rejected faith in favour of rationality.
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Posted by: gsmiley on Jan 26, 2007 4:50 AM
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How this works might best be looked at in a historical context. We are all the descendants of usurpers at some point in the past, and all those campaigns of settlement and conquest have been authorized by a true god who rejoiced in the retreats of the skraelings, the murder of the Amalekites, Canaanaites, and approved the civilizing of savages even as they were shot, poisoned, subjugated; their lands, properties and women confiscated and abused. (Although the Soviets accomplished this without God they too had a unifying idea which was not atheism but ownership by the proletariat of the means of production. Unfortunately this turned out to be even less effective than private property).
This just happens to be a limited world and somehow our conflicting social and selfish instincts have to be put in the right balance in the right time and place if we are to go forth and multiply in the face of some pretty tough competition. The exponential mathematics of growth , unlike its justifying theologies, is incontrovertible. A meager 2% p.a. population growth, doubling every forty years or so will see us with standing room only in less than five centuries. Long before that I suggest the followers of the TRUE god (proof lies in victory just read the Bible, Koran or whatever) will have vastly reduced the competition whether by war, or happy accident like crop failure or plague and I am sure the last of our ridiculous species, dying of heat stroke in some cave in northern Greenland will go dickering and importuning the almighty, everlasting figment of his imagination that got him to this place; that will be religion's final triumph and failure. Dawkins' is his lack of compassion for a nearly sapient species still clinging to his sustaining delusions.
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» RE: Dawkins' failure
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» RE: Dawkins' failure
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» Your failure
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Posted by: Door man on Jan 26, 2007 5:24 AM
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When Dawkins begins to wield the same amount of power and influence that these fellows do complete with Universities and meeting halls, then I will have some concern; but not until then.
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Posted by: Lois on Jan 26, 2007 5:31 AM
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Please.
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» Cooptation is the real issue
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Posted by: Moonray on Jan 26, 2007 5:39 AM
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Is it "aggressive" to point out that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and not 5, as the theologians would have us believe? What nonsense.
McGrath and his fellow superstition-peddlers have no substance to their arguments so they are left to whine, obfuscate and prevaricate -- which is what ministers do best.
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» RE: McGrath's argument has no substance; is this the best he can do?
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: hquain on Jan 26, 2007 5:41 AM
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Those who deny this compelling deduction deserve every insulting adjective you can attach to their names, along with a few adverbs attached to the adjectives.
It appears that the job description for "Oxford theologian" is rather like that for White House Press Secretary.
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» brilliantly said
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: edraven on Jan 26, 2007 5:55 AM
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Christians who actually read the entire Bible, not just the carefully picked verses that somewhat seem rational, will find the most disgusting treatment of humans by your so called God.
...And logic: the book says that God gave his only begotten son, so that whosoever believes in him will have everlasting life. When I was young and a Lutheran, I thought that was one of the most beautiful things that I had ever read. When I grew up and found out that Santa Claus was not real, I thought about that beautiful passage. Why would an all powerful God create a son, then kill him for no reason. God could have just given us everlasting life, if we believed in him.
Most of the things that God did in the Bible were unnecessary for an all powerful God. They seem to really be the ravings of ignorant people trying to control others. Like the Witch Doctors.
If you can't defend your faith (delusion) without using lies, personal attacks, or parroting the flawed logic of others - - maybe there is nothing to defend.
Ed Graham
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» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: sg
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: plarue
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: mindcryme
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BUSHisLiar on Jan 26, 2007 6:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Godel's "incompleteness"/Quantum uncertainty
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Godel's "incompleteness"/Quantum uncertainty
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: Godel's "incompleteness"/Quantum uncertainty
Posted by: Tatarize
» Brilliantly put, sg...
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: bornxeyed
» When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: blitzmesser
» Show me the proof, any proof that no god exists.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof that no god exists.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof that no god exists.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chalet on Jan 26, 2007 6:26 AM
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» RE: Historical Theology
Posted by: juergen
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Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 26, 2007 6:35 AM
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» This debate is just getting started
Posted by: anniedine
» RE: This debate is just getting started
Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: This debate is just getting started
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jan 26, 2007 6:43 AM
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How can one evaluate reality? This is the core question. Science is the answer.
To anyone who believes in God, answer this:
If god is all powerful, then god is responsible for all the evil in the world.
If humankind has "free will," then god is not all powerful.
This in not my original idea.
You can see where this is going, right?
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» RE: Science/Religion harmonized
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Science/Religion harmonized
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Tai chi nonsense
Posted by: Ripcord
» Completely wrong.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Incompletely wrong.
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Incompletely wrong.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Incompletely wrong.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: B.F. Skinner
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» It's not about revealing God, it's pointing out an implication.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: It's not about revealing God, it's pointing out an implication.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: It's not about revealing God, it's pointing out an implication.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: mindcryme
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel1982 on Jan 26, 2007 6:51 AM
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The few religion electives I took at my university (University of Toronto) certainly held the view that Paul essentially created Christianity - maybe because that was a secular university which had no baggage of dogma?
I'm disappointed with this review though. Yes Dawkins wrote that religion creates conflict where there should be none - I think that goes without saying. Jews in American are indistinguishable from the mainstream Caucasian population, yet that community is frequently the target of attacks. Get rid of religion and thats one less thing to worry about.
Of course the review didn't even touch on Dawkins' criticism of why believe in a God in the absence of evidence, and further .. why believe in YOUR God out of all of the other ones (whether your God is the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God or the Hindu Gods). If I become a Catholic and there are about 1 billion Catholics in the world, I have about 1 in 6 chance of being right and going to heaven.
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» RE: St. Paul the father of Christianity?
Posted by: juergen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 26, 2007 7:01 AM
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If you, the reader of this, worship some being or beings- good for you. If you choose not to, however defined, good for you as well. Go on and express your faith or non-faith in a manner respectful of others. Just do not force it down the throat of others, especially since the results are not in.
The critical difference, for this discussion, between atheists and others who doubt or deny God is their absolute insistence that they are absolutely correct. This attitude is no different than that of some crackpot televangelist predicting the end of the world for fun and profit. Since no person has seen god & humans do not have universal knowledge, it is just as arrogant to be aggressively atheist as it is to be aggressively a member of any faith.
Until the general perception of atheists is that of a more tolerant group of people, they will continue to be viewed as a bunch of extremist nutballs by many. A little tolerance and a little less arrogance would go a long way to acceptance in the culture at large.
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» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: hellofriends
» Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: aaronfetty
» RE: Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: Rungle
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Atheists are on the defensive, NOT intolerant
Posted by: JesseJames
» RE: Atheists are on the defensive, NOT intolerant
Posted by: NoPCZone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cellis56 on Jan 26, 2007 7:15 AM
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And anyway, why the polemic against an ideology gasping for air in a country happily inhaling ignorance? A country that put Darwin on a hit list to maintain its fictions? (Ranking second from last place in the world in its faith in science.)
Relax. You've got atheists on the run but forget about stamping out the last vestiges of intelligent life.
Like most atheists, I find the Flying Spaghetti Monster a lot more credible than your inventions.
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» RE: Psychologizing
Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Shrill
Posted by: blitzmesser
» FSM is the ruler of the universe!
Posted by: doctorsquared
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Posted by: evan.leonard on Jan 26, 2007 7:15 AM
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A book: The Architecture of the Soul
One person here mentioned evolution as a way to explain life without needing a concept of God. Perhaps evolution is a conception of God? Perhaps our knowledge of evolution is the Creator becoming aware of itself. Perhaps, when examined without fear, both sides are also true.
Evan
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» RE: A new resource.
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Those people are wrong.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Those people are wrong.
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Those people are wrong.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: A new resource.
Posted by: dm.
» RE: A new resource.
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: blugene on Jan 26, 2007 7:28 AM
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Language.
Language is.
Language is a virus.
Language is a virus from outer space.
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» RE: Virus of the mind?
Posted by: dirkster42
» RE: Virus of the mind?
Posted by: blugene
» RE: Virus of the mind?
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: g on Jan 26, 2007 7:36 AM
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How about "the ongoing, centuries long, aggressive rhetoric of many (by no means "all") Christian writers, politicians and merely believers masks a deep insecurity about the public credibility of Christianity"?
I've really, really had it with these double standards. Dawkins and Dennett offer intellectual defenses of atheism. It's their prerogative-and I don't see why they have a duty to be "nice" to a category of believers many of whom openly talk of atheists as second-rate human beings. Criticize their arguments? It's perfectly possible (personally I agree with them on many points, but I believe they overreach). Then do it, and stop second guessing their motivation and whining that they do not play nice. Most days of the week the Pope, or some politician or think-tank leader gives some piece of hate speech against secular values and society. Why can't atheists ever defend their views openly without someone accusing of being "shrill"? Maybe because the atheist's arguments are a lot less vulnerable than these opponents claim? In fact, I still have to see a single good, not ad personam argument against Dennett or Dawkins (and such arguments do exist).
Many self-respecting biologist and philosophers of science will defend evolutionary biology aggressively and their being aggressive is no indication whatsoever of insecurity but simply lack of patience with repeated absurd criticism. The increase in number of people who believe in creationism is not evidence of its truth, but a depressing and predictable consequence of the sad state of American education. I can see an analogy here...
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Posted by: SolitonMan on Jan 26, 2007 7:35 AM
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But are these REALLY religions? What is religion, why does it exist, and do any of the so-called organized religions actually meet the standard for religious fulfillment.
I believe that life, reality, existence - whatever you wish to term this shared experience in which we are all partaking - exists due to a conscious act of will on the part of some being. This creator is the concept in my head when God is mentioned.
Religion (and here we're getting to my personal definition) is whatever helps you form a closer, more personal relationship with that Creator. The main intolerance in all of the so-called organized religions is that they purport to embody the "one true way" to reach God. Such an idea is directly contradictory to the very essence of God - omnipotence, omnicscience, omnipresence. HUMANS are limited, HUMANS are finite - God is neither of those things.
If you look at the role in history, the actions taken, the goals sought and/or achieved, it's obvious that organized religions are NOT religions at all - they do not in any way, shape or form help an individual achieve a closer, more personal relationship with God. These things, these "religions", are all about control of the physical world. Specifically, they are meant to provide a rationalization for the egocentric world view which mandates that humans are somehow special beyond all other lifeforms in existence.
This is where I find the entire debate confusing. Ya wanna know what life is? Stardust and sunlight, swirling through time. The fact that so much of such detail can arise from such a simple system is where my own sense of awe draws its origin.
The primary delusion served by religion has nothing to do with the existence of a primary, fundamental, divine creator, but instead with the primacy of the human lifeform as central to and essential to all of existence. A patently absurd idea when considered in the context merely of the observable universe, even that observable with the naked eye on a clear, cool night in a rural, unlit area.
I used to consider myself an atheist, because the experience I had of life in no way conformed to the ideas planted in my brain by the Catholic church as I was indoctrinated as a youth. As I got more experience, I realized it wasn't God I had a problem with, but religion. I no longer consider Christianity, Judaism or Islam to be religion in the sense of creating a close relationship with God. I consider these things to be socio-political control structures. They have nothing to do with the divine, for if they did then their adherents would behave in ways far different from that observed in the world.
The fact is that reality does and always will transcend the ability of the human mind to fully embrace. After all, the things that we don't know merely begin with the 6 billion people we've never met. One barely sentient species on one tiny planet circling one unassuming star in a dead-end corner of an unremarkable galaxy hardly constitute a godly example of creativity - despite how much we can impress ourselves with our outrageous rhetoric.
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» RE: eligion?
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: eligion?
Posted by: xtine
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Posted by: Kneel on Jan 26, 2007 7:46 AM
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When will the Oxford professors of astrology, or Scientology so bravely stand up against someone so blithely dismissing their fields.
Oh, wait, there is no Oxford department of astrology, nor or Scientology. Why not?
Because we recognize such things as superstitions, and you don’t have to extensively study astrology to dismiss it, nor read the entire oeuvre of L. Ron Hubbard (and watch clips of all Tom Cruise’s interviews) to give Scientology a miss.
But somehow we’re supposed to require all sorts of defensive arguments to dismiss this particular superstition. Unlike other superstitions, this one is really real, dammit!
We would be alarmed if people started believing Venutian aliens were telling them what to do, and insisting that other people live their lives in accordance with the desires of the Venutians, even making public policy and even going off to wars based on what the Venutians wants. We’d be alarmed if that belief was rising.
That this lunacy (Venuancy) was rising wouldn’t somehow mean those of us who insisted there was no evidence of the existence of the Venutians, and even less that they were actually telling us what to do and we act accordingly were in the wrong. The evidence would point more to an absence than a presence of Venutians.
Too bad we can’t be as rational about some other superstitions.
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» RE: Calling the Oxford professor of astrology...
Posted by: blitzmesser
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Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Jan 26, 2007 7:47 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seriously, Madalyn Murry O'Hare has been dead a long time ... and even among athiests, her absence has been barely noticed.
Richard Dawkins sells books. He doesn't apply for "Prison Ministry "federal grant money or school vouchers. He doesn't propose legislation in the House of Commons. He isn't passing a collection plate at his Athiest Megachurch. There's no Atheist 700 club raking in the contributions from at-home viewers. He hasn't structured his manufacturing company as a "ministry' passing out tracts and sheltering income from taxation. There are no "Save the Children Atheist Federation' commercials on late night TV -- with or without Dawkins's smiling face.
In short there's no "Atheism" in the sense of an organized community which can 'succeed' or 'fail', and Dawkins if there WERE ... Dawkins doesn't speak for it.
I snarkily observe that Religious communities will wound and dissappoint enough of their own children in each generation that there will never be any shortage of angry ex-believers to carry the 'Atheist Cause' forward into the forseeable future.
But, for the meantime ... Dawkins and Harris are just easily down-knockable Straw Men, ... perfect for burning in effegy -- great topics for fundraising and volunteer recruitment appeals. They're Fair Game ... War on Christmas Warriors who will never surrender, the way Walmart did.
And, if in the process, all advocates of Church State Separation, --Secularists or not, -- can be guilt-by-association discredited by Dawkins's 'shrill and desperate' rudenss -- so much the better, eh?
Personally, I think, for their own sake, Believers should pay less attention to what Dawkins and his ilk WRITE and more to what Robertson and HIS ilk DO.
But the Church survived Aimee Semple McPherson, Billy Sunday and Father Caughlin, not to mention Leo X and Oliver Cromwell. It'll survive Fallwell, Dobson, Graham Jr. et al., too -- with or without Dawkins's help.
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Posted by: Skeptico on Jan 26, 2007 7:55 AM
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For the gullible and credulous, it is the confidence with which something is said that persuades, rather than the evidence offered in its support.
…which describes exactly how religious fairy-tales are presented, and the people who believe them.
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» RE: Gullible and credulous?
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: solrev on Jan 26, 2007 8:13 AM
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Christianity 2.1 billion 31.3% US 76.5% Islam 1.3 billion 19.4% US 0. 5%
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostics/Atheist 1.1 billion 16.4% US 13.2%
Other Relgions 2.2 billion 32.9% US 9.8%
From this data if you atheists are so rational, why do you not see the prevalence of religion and what utility it possesses? Look at the 1.1 billion, where are they at and how did they get there? Whether the devil made you do it or the devil did not make you do it and you did it anyway seems a mute point. Non religious do not have any better record of accomplishment than the religious do. If you are the enlightened atheists and do not want to be associated with the 1.1 billion, you should change your identity to the rational progressives. Historically, you can not claim any moral high ground for being an atheist. As for the article the man has a really good command of the teachings of Jesus. Do you know why you have separation of church and state in this land? Because Jesus taught us to not chant in public, to go into our closets and pray. Beware of the pagan Christians chanting in public that is what he warned us. He also said he would not know them.
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» RE: TRUTH OR DARE
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: TRUTH OR DARE
Posted by: solrev
» The Utility of Religion is NOT at issue ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: TRUTH OR DARE
Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: TRUTH OR DARE
Posted by: Blabdy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: owlbear1 on Jan 26, 2007 8:16 AM
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http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/1996/01
======================
An 'entity' capable of creating that does NOT need worship. It would be like you demanding worship from individual atoms in your body.
Anybody claiming they will get special privileges for doing so is at best Delusional, at worst Arrogant.
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» Says who an entity like that needs worship?
Posted by: MatthewSavage
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Posted by: buzzjustice on Jan 26, 2007 8:17 AM
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Jan 26, 2007 8:25 AM
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It is organized Religion that is the problem.
God or Common Sense...take your pick...would say that we should try be good and honest, and truthful and we should take care of our planet and each other and just try to do the best we can, every day.
Religions- on the other hand, gives us leaders and a bunch of rules to fight over. And Atheists can be just as bad as the rest.
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Posted by: agathena on Jan 26, 2007 8:50 AM
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» RE: Dawkins wins!
Posted by: jontv
» RE: Dawkins wins what?
Posted by: sg
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Posted by: jim_altman on Jan 26, 2007 8:51 AM
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» This so true! Fundamentalism is the face of repressed doubt....
Posted by: pondering
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Posted by: ScottP on Jan 26, 2007 8:54 AM
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"I don't understand how Dawkins can not believe in God"
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Posted by: WarrenPiece on Jan 26, 2007 8:55 AM
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--from this article's byline.
Alister McGrath, a biochemist and Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University, may be Richard Dawkins' most prominent critic. As the author of "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life," he was interviewed extensively for Dawkins' recent documentary, "The Root of All Evil." Not a frame of these interviews made it into the final edit.
Perhaps if these lost interviews mirrored this loopy "Cliff's Notes" understanding of Dawkins writings, then Dawkins did his Oxford colleague a favor by not including them in his film.
Will this be a trend in academic publishing, like the cottage industry of "DaVinci Code Explained" books that leeched off of another worldwide bestseller? I can't wait for Ted Haggard's response, "He Called My Children Animals: Dawkins' Delusional Demons Exposed!"
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Posted by: Drclaw on Jan 26, 2007 8:56 AM
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Move on people, nothing to see here.
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» thanks, but we'll be hanging around a while
Posted by: anniedine
» RE: yawn
Posted by: craigandrew
» Plato had doubts that thinking could ever survive the crass kind of rhetoric as the Dawkins debate.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Plato had doubts that thinking could ever survive the crass kind of rhetoric as the Dawkins debate.
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: eloots on Jan 26, 2007 9:17 AM
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Great job, Richard !
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Posted by: Ghoulman on Jan 26, 2007 9:18 AM
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Posted by: EasterBunny on Jan 26, 2007 9:20 AM
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» RE: has AlterNet gone religious?
Posted by: kenhymes
» RE: has AlterNet gone religious?
Posted by: Mike C
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Posted by: thirdmg on Jan 26, 2007 9:22 AM
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Posted by: Jimsabis on Jan 26, 2007 9:52 AM
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I had hoped that McGrath’s written case would be a bit more coherent, but sadly it is anything but. He reverses his logical arguments as it suits his case, rather than presenting a solid line of reasoning, relying on circular reasoning and vague semantics to make his vague 'points'. An attentive reader sees right through it. There are a large number of excellent posters to this thread already who do a remarkable job of pointing this out. My special thanks to charlieparisek and his post The McGrath Delusion where he made the case wonderfully.
It is especially sad to see such a well educated mind corrupted by his faith. He really does miss the point of Dawkins argument. For an example of a well reasoned approach by a member of the clergy, I recommend reading a post to another recent thread where Dawkins was interviewed.
http://tinyurl.com/2vxpqs
The link will bring you to my comment, the post by hhill - Apples and Oranges:science and philosophy is directly above. I do not agree with all he has to say, as you will note, but the post was at least a thoughtful one and worthy of a careful read and consideration.
Mr. McGrath would do well to study hhill’s approach to the topic. He may then have something to say that makes a worthwhile contribution to the debate. So far he has only succeeded in supporting Dawkin’s, Harris’ and Dennet’s arguments.
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Jan 26, 2007 10:00 AM
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» why are you reading and commenting on it then?
Posted by: anniedine
» RE: why are you reading and commenting on it then? PEEK a BOO
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: why are you reading and commenting on it then?
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Isn't this whole issue getting boring?
Posted by: sayswho
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sg on Jan 26, 2007 10:17 AM
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He should be smart enough to know that when discussing matters of "ultimate concern," which is how Paul Tillich defined religion, the you'r- idiotic-and-weak-if-you-believe- in-God argument is not very persuasive to religious-minded folks. In fact, intellectual arguments don't convert anyone, one way or the other. Life experiences do.
What's next: books about how evil and violent religious people like Dr. King, Gandhi, Rabbi Heschel, Badshah Khan, the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Romero, Bishop Tutu were/ are; not to mention all the evil created by the black church, which birthed blues, jazz and the civil rights mvt? Religous people like me don't give a damn about the Dawkins of the world, unless they can figure out a pragmatic way to get a real social movement going that has a possibility of succeeding. My ultimate concern is this-wordly human ethics, as was Jesus' primary concern.
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» RE: Yawn etc.
Posted by: Tatarize
» Interesting point, but
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Interesting point, but
Posted by: Tatarize
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Jan 26, 2007 10:20 AM
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» RE: Who cares what theologians have to say?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Who cares what theologians have to say?
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Who cares what theologians have to say?
Posted by: sayswho
» Science and technology offer objectivity.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Thats rather dubious logic...nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Who cares what theologians have to say?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Who cares what theologians have to say?
Posted by: Tatarize
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anniedine on Jan 26, 2007 10:22 AM
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Right now we have two articulate, intelligent, and yes, strident people who are publicly giving voice to what so many of us believe privately.
McGrath is just one of the many religionists who have failed to counter the arguments of Dawkins and Harris.
You can read a point-by-point debate that Harris had with someone of McGrath's stripe – it gives a clear view of who has the more coherent argument:
http://www.jewcy.com/dialogue/
monday_why_are_atheists_so_angry_sam_harris
[that's all one URL – Alternet has some bizarre rule about the number of characters allowed in "one word" in the comments]
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» RE: Yes, atheists have finally found their voices...AHA!!
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Yes, atheists have finally found their voices...
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: racquettech on Jan 26, 2007 10:30 AM
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This artical has the dubious distinction of being correct and uninteresting. Tell me something I don't know: like why I should believe in your God.
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» RE: Dawkins under a different name.
Posted by: sg
» Another person who didn't actually READ Dawkins
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: gemelabuena on Jan 26, 2007 10:34 AM
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if you want to talk religious people out of their beliefs need to make an effort to understand those beliefs first. i stopped being a christian about 15 years ago, but i have never gotten used to how comfortable so many on the left seem to be with lambasting religious people in general (particularly christians) because of the sins of people like pat robertson and ralph reid, and how incredibly ignorant so many atheists on the left are about so many basic things about religion and religious people. i appreciate alternet's willingness to print this article, knowing how many of its readers would lash out against it without letting themselves be challenged by it. i hope those who responded above will consider giving it a second read, not in the looking-for-what's-wrong way (dogmatism), but in the engaging-with-its-questions way (dialogue). better yet, try studying the writings of some other religious folks, includings some of the many religious pacifists out there like gandhi and MLK, just to get a little grounding in where they're coming from.
that said, i haven't read the dawkins book, and do appreciate the posts of those above who did and argue that the author is misrepresenting his arguments. if that's the case, the author's guilty of the same thing i'm accusing some of the other posters of, and that'd be just as much of a shame.
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» RE: gemelabuena
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: gemelabuena
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: gemelabuena
Posted by: gemelabuena
» RE: gemelabuena
Posted by: Jimsabis
» Who wants to do away with religion?
Posted by: Mike C
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jan 26, 2007 11:24 AM
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» RE: Dontcha...
Posted by: jo5ef.k
» As long as you get to speak of all religious people as one homogenous group, of course...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» yes, let's look at what tolerance has gotten us
Posted by: anniedine
» RE: yes, let's look at what tolerance has gotten us
Posted by: owlbear1
» You confuse theocracy and personal tollerance, Annie.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: yes, let's look at what tolerance has gotten us
Posted by: shhazam4
» You consistently sound far too much like...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Dontcha...
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Dontcha...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shhazam4 on Jan 26, 2007 11:37 AM
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Whatever gets you through the night!
As long as you are tolerant of all others, who cares what myth you believe, right?
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» This is the general argument. And it is very wrong.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: This is the general argument. And it is very wrong.
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: This is the general argument. And it is very wrong.
Posted by: Tatarize
» myths are myths... real is real
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myths are myths... real is real
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: myths are myths... real is real
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myths are myths... real is real
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: myths are myths... real is real
Posted by: shhazam4
Comments are closed-
Posted by: I imagine on Jan 26, 2007 11:40 AM
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1. This kind of talk is disgusting. It's like discussing the difference between a good negro and a n***er. To me, it really spotlights the problem with people who name themselves "Christians".
2. Jesus never said anything that can be substantiated. 40 years or so after he was executed, a handful of mostly illiterate men started telling stories, as they recalled them, about the good old days. The guys who could write, listened and wrote down what they thought the others had said.
Translations and revisions went on for the next 10 centuries or so until we ended up with something that sort of resembles the modern day Bible. So that now we have the most extended game of "telephone" in the history of man masquerading as the undisputed word of a God that no one has ever seen without the aid of hallucinogens or extreme blind faith - which are interchangeable.
Is this sick or what?
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» RE: Bible vs Aesop's Fables
Posted by: I imagine
» RE: Bible vs Aesop's Fables
Posted by: sg
» Um...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Um...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Um...
Posted by: Tatarize
» It's a bit worse than that...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: It's a bit worse than that...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: It's a bit worse than that...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Bible vs Aesop's Fables
Posted by: shhazam4
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Posted by: Astro on Jan 26, 2007 11:55 AM
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» RE: ational vs. irrational
Posted by: whitey
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Posted by: Democritus on Jan 26, 2007 12:10 PM
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As for McGrath's claim that atheism has led to no less violence than religion, this is also false. Stalin was an atheist, but he didn't kill his religious adversaries for the sake of atheism; he did it to get rid anyone or any group that threatened his powers. But perhaps Dawkins is mistaken as to the prevalence of religious belief, theorizing that it might be due to some genetic quirk. Freud had a much simpler answer, which is that people are afraid of death, and religion provides an anodyne for this.
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» RE: Atheism is not a religion
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» No, but secular humanism is also not a science...
Posted by: pondering
» But secular humanism works
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: But secular humanism works
Posted by: pondering
» RE: But secular humanism works
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: But secular humanism works
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: But secular humanism works
Posted by: shhazam4
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sg on Jan 26, 2007 12:16 PM
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» Yes...one of the best comments yet in this ongoing debate
Posted by: jdylarid
» RE: my beef with Dawkins is...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: my beef with Dawkins is...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: my beef with Dawkins is...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: my beef with Dawkins is...
Posted by: Tatarize
» Sayswho is correct: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: jdylarid
» RE: Sayswho is correct: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: Tatarize
» Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: jdylarid
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Tatarize is correct too: Hiroshima and Nagasaki...
Posted by: sayswho
» Why doesn't Dawkins pick on some defensible beliefs?
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Why doesn't Dawkins pick on some defensible beliefs?
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Why doesn't Dawkins pick on some defensible beliefs?
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: my beef with Dawkins is...
Posted by: MaatsFeather
» RE: my beef with Dawkins is...
Posted by: sayswho
Comments are closed-
Posted by: flowerskunk on Jan 26, 2007 12:41 PM
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» RE: number of believers isn't proof of a god!
Posted by: sg
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Posted by: fork on Jan 26, 2007 12:44 PM
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"Until recently, western atheism had waited patiently, believing that belief in God would simply die out. But now, a whiff of panic is evident. Far from dying out, belief in God has rebounded, and seems set to exercise still greater influence in both the public and private spheres. The God Delusion expresses this deep anxiety, partly reflecting an intense distaste for religion. Yet there is something deeper here, often overlooked in the heat of debate. The anxiety is that the coherence of atheism itself is at stake. Might the unexpected resurgence of religion persuade many that atheism itself is fatally flawed as a worldview?
That's what Dawkins is worried about. The shrill, aggressive rhetoric of his God Delusion masks a deep insecurity about the public credibility of atheism. "
This is all based on the premise that religiosity is increasing and atheism is dying out. I don't know if this is true for the world, but if it is, it's only because religions are drawing on poor and uneducated populations. In wealthy countries with educated populations, like Canada, Western Europe, Australia, the percentage who subscribe to no religion is growing. In Canada, for example, the percentage who identify with no religion went from 12.6 in 1991 to 16.5 in 2001.
And these figures would be understated. From Phil Zuckerman's Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns, where he discusses the problems with identifying rates of belief and disbelief:
"A third methodological problem involves the political or cultural climate of a given country. . .Even in open, democratic societies without pervasive governmental coercion, individuals often feel that in order to make themselves appear as decent, upstanding citizens, it is necessary to say that are religious( i ) -- or deny being an atheist -- simply because such a response is deemed socially desirable or culturally appropriate. For example, the designation “atheist” is highly stigmatized in many societies; even when people directly claim to not believe in God, they still eschew the specific self-designation of “atheist.” Greeley (2003) found that 29% of Latvians, 41% of Norwegians, 48% of the French, and 54% of Czechs claimed to not believe in God, but only 9%, 10%, 19%, and 20% of those respondents self-identified as “atheist,” respectively."
McGrath is projecting his own insecurities and anxieties onto Dawkins. The timing of The God Delusion is more indicative of the realization that there is a growing receptiveness to atheism in educated populations.
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» RE: Atheism dying out?
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: banger on Jan 26, 2007 12:45 PM
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» RE: McGrath and the FAR right wing nuts
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: McGrath and the FAR right wing nuts
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: McGrath and the FAR right wing nuts
Posted by: sayswho
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pbullwinkle on Jan 26, 2007 1:06 PM
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McGrath, as all Christian apologists do, selectively chooses scripture to show the supposed inclusiveness and moral superiority of Jesus' teaching. What he conveniently leaves out is Jesus' message of exclusivity that "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6) and all the related scriptures that condemn anyone who doesn't accept Jesus to an eternal life of hell fire. If there was a real Jesus who said those things, which I highly doubt, then he was a monster not a god.
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» RE: Why I Am Not A Christian by Bertrand Russell
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jan 26, 2007 1:22 PM
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It isn't about whether or not god exists. The simple fact of the matter is that we as humans are not capable of comprehending god. Whatever he wants or does not want from us, we can not and do not know, and the only thing we can infer from that is that he/she/it intended it that way. This makes all religions blasphemous! Including atheism.
Perhaps god is that which drives us all to discover what god is?
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» RE: Atheism isn't credible
Posted by: I imagine
» RE: Atheism isn't credible
Posted by: sg
» AGNOSTICISM = SPRITUALITY
Posted by: charlieparisek
» Agnosticism is an epistemological term
Posted by: ailiergauche
» PEDANTS ARE SO COOL!
Posted by: charlieparisek
» let's try it this way
Posted by: ailiergauche
» and
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: and EPISTEMOLOGY!
Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: and
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: and
Posted by: ailiergauche
» disregard
Posted by: ailiergauche
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chomsky on Jan 26, 2007 2:19 PM
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Dawkins does not argue against all religion. He is only arguing against supernatural beliefs. I am a Buddhist who finds wisdom in every religion I have encountered. I am a devote religious scholar, who regularly refers to the Bible, the Koran, the writings of Lao Tzu, and speeches by the 14th Dali Lama, as sources of profound human wisdom and understanding. Not only am I a devoutly religious person, but I agree whole heartedly with everything Richard Dawkins has to say! Nowhere in his book does Dawkins criticizes my vast religious understanding, because I do not think written accounts of the supernatural should be accepted literally.
This article would have you believe that because Dawkin's is atheist, he has no respect for religion. That is not true, Dawkin's only criticizes unjustifiable beliefs that contradict reality (for example, the fundamentalist Christian notion that the Earth is less then 10,000 years old.) Dawkins is not trying to destroy all religion as the author would like you to believe.
But don't take my word for it. Chapter 1 of the God Delusion is on Dawkins website. Read this before forming your opinions about the man. Don't base your understanding of Dawkins on the lies written in this article.
http://richarddawkins.net/godDelusion#firstChapter
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» RE: Wrong!!!! Dawkins is not argueing against all religion!!!
Posted by: toddaa
» Buddhism is not a religion, it's a philosophy.
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Buddhism is a religion, just not in the Western sense
Posted by: chomsky
» We in the West typically refer to such systems as philosophy.
Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: We in the West typically refer to such systems as philosophy.
Posted by: hellofriends
Comments are closed-
Posted by: on Jan 26, 2007 2:27 PM
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Oh, how they scream when religion is challenged! How dare he! Dawkins--and anyone who agrees with him--is labeled arrogant, small-minded, intolerant, and unfit for society.
And yet I've been told all my life, by a long line of Christians, that I'd suffer forever in hell for the crime of not agreeing with them. The crime of using the same brain that their supposed "god" granted me with. The crime of not being able to choose what to believe in.
The mind "god" gave me is pathetic enough to make the judgment of whether or not to drive through an intersection with a yellow light a potentially life-ending determinant. Yet somehow, upon the same mind the burden is placed to come to one and only one conclusion regarding whether or not to give a certain god recognition.
Christians who frown upon me can kiss my ass. Whether or not I agree with Dawkins, I'm damned glad that someone has had the nerve to speak to religionists with at least a fraction the contempt they've showed us atheists for thousands of years.
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» RE: My Perspective
Posted by: sg
» sg, I think you're too intelligent for these threads, nm
Posted by: jdylarid
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Posted by: wisewebwoman on Jan 26, 2007 2:28 PM
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I've seen no coherent Christ-argument yet to counter the beliefs of Dawkins. Interestingly enough, I wonder where the Jews are in this and the Muslims too.
What makes complete sense to me is the old chestnut:
Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell
Spirituality is for those who've already been there.
I've seen atrocities committed in the name of religion (I'm from Ireland) that are unspeakable and we continue to read about them every day.
I've never seen/heard/read about an atheist blowing up anything to convince the rest of us.
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» RE: A search for meaning
Posted by: sg
» RE: A search for meaning
Posted by: wisewebwoman
» RE: A search for meaning
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: A search for meaning
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: pfm on Jan 26, 2007 2:49 PM
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Posted by: rjray on Jan 26, 2007 2:59 PM
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» Stalin was an atheist and Bertrand Russell was an atheist; George Bush is a Christian...
Posted by: pondering
» What? Stalinism was clearly reason run amok! Why any amount of thinking will lead to gulags.
Posted by: Tatarize
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dm. on Jan 26, 2007 3:26 PM
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Did it ever occur to any of you anti-religionists that belief and disbelief could possibly co-exist, simultaneously and within the same mind? That there are people who can and do believe deeply and religiously, yet are also capable of deep questioning and critical thinking about their own actions and "worldview"? That, as the revolutionary Jewish-aetheist Freud and his neo-pagan colleague, Jung, tried to show, every belief is projective? That, as the Jewish-mystic-scientist Einstein and others have found, perhaps we are not in total control of things? That, as great mystics and lovers have shown, from Rumi or St. Francis to Jean Vanier or the Dalai Lama, as well as commonplace, work-a-day religionists all over the globe who quietely live, work, raise families and die on a daily basis, perhaps the only thing we can come at all close to controlling is each one's own, individual human heart?
Perhaps being right is not what counts here. If you think it is, go ahead...be right. But such binary thinking makes me again realize that we Christians and other believers are not the only hypocrites on the planet.
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» Same argument, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
Posted by: anniedine
» RE: Same argument, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
Posted by: sayswho
» rarely
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: rarely
Posted by: sayswho
Comments are closed-
Posted by: beelzeblob on Jan 26, 2007 4:02 PM
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actually, i don't believe that a rise in religion can be traced to anything other than increasing lack of critical thinking skills on the part of the people who "find" religion. however, i think it's critically important to distinguish between religion and belief in a creative universal force or god if it makes one feel better. i welcome commentary on this difference before i put in my 3cents worth.
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Posted by: jo5ef.k on Jan 26, 2007 4:22 PM
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Finally, I have a theory that even many openly religious folk struggle to believe in what they profess, but, like 10 yr olds insisting stridently in the existence of Father Xmas, are terrified of the alternative. Hence the wave of vitriolic attacks against the admirable Mr Dawkins.
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» RE: Atheists unite! Say wha?
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Atheists unite! Say wha?
Posted by: jo5ef.k
» RE: Atheists unite! Say wha?
Posted by: sayswho
Comments are closed-
Posted by: simulant on Jan 26, 2007 5:33 PM
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The author is completely unconvincing and no match for Dawkins. He doesn't even seem to understand that atheism is the lack of faith, implying that atheists have faith in atheism.
I would agree that Dawkins shows contempt for his subject which, unfortunately will turn away the audience he is trying to reach but... he remains logically correct.
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» Heh. Always true and always amusing.
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: justAnEgg on Jan 26, 2007 6:19 PM
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McGrath is a hypocrit, of course. As a Christian he has no choice.
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» RE: Credo quia absurdam
Posted by: Mike C
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Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Jan 26, 2007 6:31 PM
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My view is that the whole debate is imaginary. Questions are being asked that we have no business asking -- they have no meaning.
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» RE: What does 'atheism' mean? or why I'm not an atheist
Posted by: justAnEgg
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Posted by: pbutler on Jan 26, 2007 6:45 PM
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All of the critiques against Dawkins and The God Delusion posted on Alternet have convinced me of one thing: the book should be sold in a package with strong anti-histamines, since it so often provokes severe outbreaks of snottiness.
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Posted by: kenhymes on Jan 26, 2007 7:29 PM
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If the fear is that the United States is facing some kind of theocratic fascism in its future, that is a truly farfetched concern. There are mere pockets of that worldview, the overwhelming character of the US is heterogenous, mercantile, and secular. I think this kind of paranoia could only be espoused by people who have never experienced true theocracy or true fascism. There are lots of places in the world where religious fanaticism finds expression in mob violence... the US has never been one of those places to any great degree, and there's no reason to think it's about to happen. Racism has been a much more fertile source of violence here.
There is so much amateur sociology and history going on here - I wonder how many have bothered to read truly informed critical studies of Christianity such as History of Christianity by Paul Johnson, or In Search of Paul by Dominic Crossan. Religion is not a simple or easily condensed topic, perhaps even less so than science (about which I also suspect most here know very little beyond high school and college survey courses).
One thing is for sure: faith in invisible things is woven into the tapestry of human culture, and it won't be removed by calling the thread stupid or bad. If you are so certain that your ideas of a mechanical and un-thinking cosmos are true and valid, why do you feel the need to resort to name-calling instead of rational argument?
This I think is McGrath's one strong point, which he unfortunately does not support very well - public atheists are feeling unsure about the once-assumed gradual elimination of religion, confidently predicted by generations of atheist scientists and historians, but never coming to pass. This uncertainty is tempting some into, yes, an aggressive posture that is no more attractive or persuasive than the tinpot ambitions of the Dobsons et al.
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» RE: The hatred and anger is so sad, and derives from ignorance
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: The hatred and anger is so sad, and derives from ignorance
Posted by: sayswho
» STOP CHASING YOUR TAIL
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: DavidDiamond on Jan 26, 2007 7:37 PM
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Posted by: TexasGreen on Jan 26, 2007 8:23 PM
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"Wandering in a vast forest at night, I have only a faint light to guide me. A stranger appears and says to me: 'my friend, you should blow out your candle in order to find the way more clearly.' This stranger is a theologian."
~Denis Diderot (1713-1784) French Writer
McGrath in this case, is that theologian.
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» RE: TexasGreen
Posted by: sasha40
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Posted by: Religious Atheist on Jan 26, 2007 11:00 PM
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» RE: Both make the same mistake: Religion is not equal to theism
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: Dawkins was clear that he meant Christianity, Islam and Judaism
Posted by: THIAHB
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Posted by: Paul Buckle on Jan 27, 2007 1:08 AM
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» RE: Santa for adults?
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Santa for adults?
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Santa for adults?
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Santa for adults?
Posted by: shhazam4
» MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Jan 27, 2007 6:29 AM
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» sooner or later....
Posted by: tnerg
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Posted by: global yokel on Jan 27, 2007 11:57 AM
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» RE: global yokel
Posted by: grailsnail
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Posted by: shhazam4 on Jan 27, 2007 2:11 PM
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Posted by: hansennancykay on Jan 27, 2007 9:03 PM
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» So "we must be very, very afraid of religious people"? Gosh, that has a familiar ring to it.
Posted by: Sojourner
» myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
» "...change the mistakes of myth believing..."? Like don't read novels, watch movies, TV commercials?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: myth believers out of control are a danger to everyone
Posted by: shhazam4
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Posted by: openhouse on Jan 28, 2007 5:45 AM
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» gods are myths
Posted by: shhazam4
» Yoda
Posted by: openhouse
» RE: Yoda
Posted by: shhazam4
» Buried and raised
Posted by: openhouse
» RE: Buried and raised
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Buried and raised
Posted by: openhouse
» RE: King David
Posted by: Mike C
» RE: King David
Posted by: shhazam4
» Knees bowed
Posted by: openhouse
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Posted by: lookingbck on Jan 28, 2007 11:12 AM
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Posted by: rtmyth on Jan 28, 2007 12:03 PM
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» RE: dick
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: ssmit355 on Jan 28, 2007 12:05 PM
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All beliefs that impose on reality or construct some kind of reality are not Real; the resulting imposition limits the mind's ability to conceptualize based on facts--based pm sensory experience. And that's nice for many people--especially in societies that breed anxiety and fear and horror and desperation--imposed belief structures offer some kind of deliverance from pain. But they fail at delivering.
Yes--wonderment exists, visions exist, power exists, freedom, bliss, unexplainable, unexplorable events are real! But to impose false order on real chaos is lying.
I like rationalists because they represent folks who use their minds to conceptualize reality. They attempt to base their opinions and live their lives with facts. (We all fail to some degree because of Belief.) Faith, as we use the word today is a distortion of how it could be used better--Faith in the beauty of Chaos is a kind of relief from anxiety without creating deception.
All religion lies. All belief systems impose fabricated versions of experience; this is always harmful, even when it's in the guise of rational ideas.
Seek truth in experience and enjoy the emotions. We are in the midst of a plague of pathological concepts, pathological leadership, pathological storytelling (e.g. mainstream news).
It will get worse: still, brave the Truth; feel alive by living--not by pretending.
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Posted by: JesseJames on Jan 28, 2007 1:32 PM
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» RE: MacGrath fails to convince
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: sayswho on Jan 28, 2007 2:02 PM
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Just as an addendum, I believe Bertrand Russell would have taken Dawkins to task too. Russell wrote Why I am Not a Christian - not Why I Am Not a Theist. As you know, Russell was an agnostic i.e. he knew better than to overstate the case. In fact, I just went and checked my Russell reader and he has lots of interesting things to say about the limits of science etc. and how science can never satisfactorily answer questions of values and ethics. It doesn't mean you need religion for ethics, of course, which he explicitly rejected. However, it does mean that humanity's search for meaningful, or ethical life, lies beyond the realm of science.
Interestingly, in one interview in which Russell discusses his atheist-leaning agnosticism, he actually answers the question: what would convince you that there is a God. It would be interesting to hear how folks in this discussion would answer such a question. Perhaps, a stab at answering such an uncomfortable question might unveil what Russell knew: you cannot argue the atheist position with absolute certainty and even more importantly (and this is why Dawkins is a verbose fool) you can't argue religion out of people because people who hold religious views do so for emotional, instinctive and psychological reasons. People's religious views change according to lived experience; not dry, academic argument. And, as has been intimated in other comments on this article, I'm wondering why Dawkins chooses to focus his energy on criticizing straw men and easy targets instead of targeting his own collegues for their deadly and invaluable connection to the military-industrial complex. Actually, Dawkins should take a page out of Russell and Einstein's book -- holding the scientific community to account for its invaluable hand in creating weapons of war and WMD. Perhaps, Russell and Einstein understood they would have far more influence and a better chance of making the wolrd a better place by launching a critique from within.
Also, tata, wondering if you're familiar with atheist/physicist Paul Feyerbend's Against Reason. Perhaps, a critique of scienctism from an atheist would go down better than one coming from an agnostic who lives "as if" there were a God.
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Posted by: whitey on Jan 28, 2007 5:53 PM
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But so is the obvious extremism demonstrated on this post by the atheist zealots. You can't prove any God exists or doesn't; language isn't up to the task and science certainly isn't. Your bigotry and bad manners does progressive politics a grave disservice, and the strident petulance of Dawkins will turn people off science. For shame!
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» another clueless believer
Posted by: EasterBunny
» another arrogant atheist
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» JoshuaDudd clueless
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: JoshuaDudd clueless
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: JoshuaDudd clueless
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: JoshuaDudd clueless
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: JoshuaDudd clueless
Posted by: EasterBunny
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Posted by: jimneill@yahoo.com on Jan 28, 2007 8:27 PM
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Matt Besser also put it well in a redraft of the ten commandments.
Two of them:
Don't touch me.
Don't touch my shit.
Extrapolate.
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Posted by: joshuawelch on Jan 28, 2007 9:07 PM
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» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Not fit to print
Posted by: shhazam4
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Posted by: jcward on Jan 28, 2007 10:22 PM
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» Is he asking for more questioning?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: maxloen on Jan 29, 2007 11:52 AM
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Almost everyone I know is of a certain religion because s/he was brought up and indoctrinated in such religion. It's a rare believer the one who belongs to a religion because such religion is 'right.' and or course, that would imply therefore that the one s/he chose is better than others, because one does not belong at the same time to some other 'wrong' religion. One then has the option of keeping this beliefs to yourself and your group and feel all superior and arrogant for 'getting it' while the others squirm, or one's group 'proselytizes' and tries to 'convert' others to their version of 'salvation.'
In the end, for selfish or generous reasons, the results are that divisions are created among beings that are essentially identical, and those divisions are then universal 'Us vs. them' struggles for life or death, power or submission, for years or centuries at the time. Hindus vs. Buddhists, Muslims vs. Jews, Protestants vs. Catholics, Mormons vs. Baptists vs. Baptists-2 vs. Methodists vs. .... So although monotheist faiths seem to unite people under one banner, it does so only at a very 'local,' 'church,' level, as member of a clan of acolytes. Since I consider what I just wrote to be right, I fail to see the advantage of having a 'clan' being in discord with everyone else.
I think that if people need to feel some chimeric reassurance that they are not going 'from dust to dust,' perhaps is better to be pantheist or animist and have their own unique and numerous gods that no one else cares about because are all too busy with their own deities and leaves the rest alone.
Space is limited, so let me run for cover from the "experts' " inquisition.
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Posted by: pondering on Jan 29, 2007 1:51 PM
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The answers to those questions cannot be derived or proven. They do not inhere in our neural circuitry. They are not common sense (no matter how obvious they might seem to you). They can only be answered with what we might call moral postulates.
Religious people typically believe that such moral postulates are transcendent and universal. They may be right and they may be wrong; the particular postulates may be admirable or terrible. But, since they begin with postulates, religious people are at least capable of building a rationally consistent moral system.
Atheist secular humanists, on the other hand, try to build their moral system without addressing the question of postulates. This is understandable, I suppose, because their atheism by definition precludes such postulates (or at least precludes the assertion that the postulates are anything other than an arbitrary human invention). But it leaves them with a self-contradicting and philosophically naive account of morality. Even a dumb old myth believer like myself can see that relativism, not humanism, is the rationally necessary moral corollary of atheism. But, alas, relativism leads to some pretty nasty outcomes sometimes, and it's a pretty hard sell with the general public, so humanism seems like a good enough fix -- as long as no one looks at it too closely. The solution? Change the subject, quick! Take some more easy shots at the fundamentalists and knock down a few more straw men! Keep talking about science and reason with all kinds of bluster and hope no one notices that our "scientific" morality is actually an Enlightenment fairy tale draped over a big illogical mess!
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» just a bunch of dubious assertions
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: just a bunch of dubious assertions
Posted by: pondering
» RE: just a bunch of dubious assertions
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: just a bunch of dubious assertions
Posted by: pondering
» THE PROBLEM WITH POSTULATES
Posted by: charlieparisek
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Posted by: TRC on Jan 29, 2007 7:51 PM
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All McGrath did was use the terms Dawkins had for religion - for which Dawkins displayed good rationale - and turn them back on Dawkins. Unfortunately McGrath used emotive rant as a backward substitute for reasoning.
Quite pathetic after 2 millennia of Christianity apologists like McGrath still cannot do better than that. Fear, wishful thinking, and superstition really are a dead end.
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Posted by: Mike C on Jan 30, 2007 12:52 PM
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All the atheists I know are not evangelical, they don't care what others believe as long as it does not interfere with their lives. There is simply no crisis of faith in atheism, despite the authors repeated assertions to the contrary.
Second the “point of weakness” of atheism is that so many people believe in god, there fore god must be true. Well clearly the world was once flat, sea monsters really sunk ships and faeries stole babies. Problem is that atheism holds its self to standards of logic and reason where as religion makes its own standards. Of course it will be harder to prove an atheist argument on this uneven playing field.
Third, Having studied memetics my self, Dawkins is not misrepresenting the science as the author claims. Religion is one of the most frequent subjects of study within the field. And yes, all ideas (even religious ones) are treated like “viruses of the mind” because they latch onto a host and replicate using the host, like a real virus.
I could refute this article point by point line by line, but I will spare you the agony.
I was not planning to read “the God Delusion” but now its high on my list.
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Posted by: Finaddict on Jan 30, 2007 3:58 PM
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Regarding McGrath's counterpoint that "atheist governments" have led to large-scale death and violence (akin to the Crusades and Inquisition, I suppose) and so atheism is faulty (again, the logic hurts) and citing the Soviet Union, Pol Pot, and Latin American regimes as proof atheism is wrong, McGrath undercuts this illogic in his own words, labeling these movements "political extremism." And, in fact, Sam Harris does a good job of explaining that these false ideologies are to be avoided just as much as are religions.
"The God Delusion seems more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with religious believers, and others seeking for truth. (Might this be because the writer is himself an atheist whose faith is faltering?)" Wrong again, Mr. McGrath. The truth is that atheists and agnostics have grown up in this country surrounded by a culture that makes it feel like a crime to not believe in God. If you haven't lived it, then you just can't fully appreciate this, and that's understandable. (I don't pretend to fully understand what it means to be Black in this country.) The reason we're even more angry and vociferous now is that our future and the future of this world seem, once again, headed toward oblivian because waring "believers" insist on running the world by their faiths. (Oh, and a lot of these believers actually want to hasten this so they can pass on to their heavenly reward!) Yes, we're angy. And scared. It's like watching two people argue whether Star Wars or Lord of the Rings should be the world view, and both of them will take us all down if we don't subscribe. (Sorry to equate anyone's religious beliefs to fiction plots, but it's time to start calling a spade a spade, and I think that's exactly what thinkers like Harris and Dawkins are trying to do.)
These are just a few comments on McGrath's rhetoric. There's much to much to respond to in this forum. Thank you, Professor McGrath, for so adroitly showing that even learned men should not be trusted. I would agree that the tone of both these writers is probably not the best way to win over their target audiences; however, it doesn't mean they're wrong. Rather than take McGrath's flawed reaction to Dawkins and Harris--or even my own interpretation--I suggest people READ the actual writings of these men and decide for themselves. Afterall, although we only have filtered, distorted, and sometimes fabricated remnants of Jesus' and Allah's thoughts as interpreted through "experts," we can read these living scholars and even talk with them ourselves.
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Posted by: Finaddict on Jan 30, 2007 4:10 PM
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» RE: Shame on AlterNet!
Posted by: MaatsFeather
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Posted by: xbj on Jan 31, 2007 12:51 AM
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Evangelism (of either position) is not only futile, it is unethical, especially if one profits from it in any way. "Fundamentalist atheism" is every bit as faith-based and close minded as every other form of fundamentalism.
I am a fatalist and a realist... I belive those who are going to "get it", will, and those who are not, won't ever "get it". What matters is not that you go to the light after your death, what matters is which light you go to. Agnostics probably will get the benefit of the doubt in that regard.
And before one rejects Christianity by the works of self-called Christians like our Dear Leader, or Islam by "terrorists" who call themselves Muslims, or pedophiles wo call themselves "Priests", I could offer only one piece of advice:
Judge all supposed religions BY THEIR NON-HUMAN SOURCE and no one else.
It's only fair. And if you've earnestly tried and you've reached no one, well then you'll know your atheism is true and beyond mere faith, won't you?
In certainly in no need of evangelism.
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Posted by: dingo on Jan 31, 2007 7:54 PM
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This long hack piece is loaded with sententious piffle. Even McGrath’s attempt to link Dawkins to Lenin and Stalin is pathetic. There’s hardly time to recapitulate the whole history of the USSR, but his cartoon version hardly does it. Certainly the Communists considered religion backwards and pernicious, but they soon reconciled themselves to it, and dozens of religious groups practiced their religious beliefs—including Orthodox Christianity and Islam.
Stalin (who studied for the priesthood) even made an alliance with the Orthodox Church after Hitler’s invasion.
http://www.answers.com/topic/religion-in-the-soviet-union
The Soviet Union even created a law, Article 142, that insisted on the separation of Church and State—for Christ’s sake! In the 1960s the USSR released a postage stamp showing Lenin happily celebrating Christmas with a mob of beaming children!
And recall that the Soviet Union broke up peacefully when the atheist Commies had the military might to take the whole world with them. What do you think George Bush would do if he found himself in Gorbachev’s position? What are the prospects that he would have nuked somebody rather than give up power?
But if only Stalin hadn’t been an atheist, he wouldn’t have killed all those folks!
He would have been gentle and loving like Pope Innocent the III who said about the Cathars, “Kill them all and let God sort them out.” And darn if he didn’t have them all exterminated as enemies of God’s true church.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar
But atheism causes you to become a loony sex crazed serial killer, right? In fact, sociological studies show that highly religious modern societies are rife with crime, violence, misogyny, divorce, and scientific ignorance when compared to societies relatively free of piousness.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
What place in the world can possibly be more God obsessed than the Middle East? What about our own Christian believers attacking science, threatening homosexuals and secularists, and cheering for an Armageddon precipitated by nuclear war?
How about the True Believer in the White House? Lucky for us he doesn’t have a pathological dislike of religion like the ever-menacing Richard Dawkins. And what core group remains fanatically devoted to pious Dubya’s wars?
Of course, Dawkins has tens of millions of followers in the U.S. bent on turning America into an atheist fascist state where Christians will be rounded up in concentration camps. Not!
I highly recommend Chris Hedge’s new essay on Christian fascism here:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013007F.shtml
There’s a far more fair and intelligent—although critical—biography of Dawkins at the Guardian for July 25, 2004 called Doctor Zoo. (Alternet is blocking my link because it’s too long…a bad rule.)
Dawkins was and is a great opponent of the Iraq war, and openly has taken a public stand against the twin Anglo-American warmongers—Blair and Bush. (Blair, of course, is another religious True Believer—just like Dubya and Osama bin Forgotten.)
So AlterNet, let’s stop trashing Dawkins and worry about the real threats to peace and human survival-- those fine religious folks who brought you the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, and who now are calling for human annihilation in a ‘cleansing’ war of Armageddon.
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Posted by: Freddie The Freeloader on Jan 31, 2007 9:57 PM
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-Blaise Pascal, Pensées
SEE ALSO:
Conversion: The Spiritual Journey of a Twentieth Century Pilgrim
by Malcolm Muggeridge
http://tinyurl.com/3yy2w9
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Posted by: sayswho on Feb 1, 2007 5:25 AM
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1. Modern scientists have caused at least as much death and destruction as modern religionists i.e. making weapons. He should go after his peers and not easy targets. People who obsess over easy targets while remaining silent about their peers misbehavior is what in my neighborhood they call a pus -- I mean, punk. Maybe that's why Bertrand Russell and Einstien focused their extra curricular activities on peace activism and not theology. (For a thorough critique of scientism and the ambigous results of western science see atheist/physicist Paul Feyerbend's Against Reason and other writings). As a biologist, Dawkins critiquing religion in general and not creationism in particular carries about as much weight as Jerry Falwell's ruminations about the nuances of string theory.
Interestingly, in one interview in which Russell discusses his atheist-leaning agnosticism, he actually answers the question: what would convince you that there is a God? It would be interesting to hear how folks in this discussion would answer such a question. Perhaps, a stab at answering such an uncomfortable inquiry might unveil what Russell knew, which leads me to...
2. You cannot argue the atheist position with absolute certainty and even more importantly (and this is why Dawkins is a verbose fool) you CAN'T ARGUE RELIGION OUT OF PEOPLE because people who hold religious views do so for emotional, instinctive and psychological reasons, as Russell pointed out in his essay Why I'm not a Christian damn near 100 years ago! That's why most of this conversation is mere intellectual masterbastion. People's religious views change according to lived experience; not dry, academic argument. (Russell also discusses why science can never answer questions of value and meaning. That doesn't mean you need religion to lead an ethical life - most athiests I know are better Christians than are Christians - but it does mean that questions of earthly ethics (which is what Jesus was primarily concerned with) lies beyond the realm of science.
3. If you challenge the way a person makes meaning out of their life, without being prepared to show them how to heal their fragmented world-view, guess what? They're going to put their fingers in their ears or attack. Fight or flight. A third way is needed. Otherwise, when confronted with an identity- shattering reality, to do otherwise would be to commit psychological suicide? And this is a real problem in progressive circles: it's not enough to be "right," as the Iraq war is a clear example. When conservatives have their whole worldview smashed against the realities of Iraq, there's a real opportunity for progressives to stop preaching to the choir and gain an ally. Instead, those who were/are "wrong" are ridiculed having been so stupid in the first place. Not. Very. Smart, as sg pointed out in a comment posted here last week.
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» RE: Dawkins a verbose fool
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: jimsenter on Feb 1, 2007 5:39 AM
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Posted by: jmooney on Feb 1, 2007 4:14 PM
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There so much drivel here that it is hard to know where to start. I'll briefly address godless Communism. Sure, these guys were atheists in that they did not have a theistic belief in a supernatural power, but they sure were far from free thinkers. They had their own special flavor of dogma revolving around Communism, in general, and Lenin, in particularly. One need only look at how they kept that man embalmed and visible for all those years. He was like a god to them. That sure wasn't a sign of rationality, and if you want to blame atheism on that, ok, go ahead, but how about all the violence perpetrated on people under various religious dogmas, not the least of which was the 9/11 debacle. Christians have become a bit more civilized, in some ways, so they don't produce as much carnage as some Muslims, but it is still an undercurrent, particularly in the fundamentalist wing.
And to suggest that aggressive books like those written by Dawkins and Harris underscore some inherent weakness in atheism, well, if that so, how about all those TV preachers on every morning, hollering, yelling, etc., and all those churches, mosques and synagogues throughout the world where people are exhorted to believe stuff that is incredible and supernatural in nature. You see them, I see them. They preach and sweat pores off them, snot comes out their nose, they yell about hell, about abortion, about the holy scriptures, etc., etc. I can't see where that kind of behavior is not a sign of inherent weakness and a few atheistic books are.
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Posted by: Bissgets on Feb 14, 2007 6:03 AM
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Ehm, my point goes (I hope I will put it out coherently, as I am not a native english speaker) like this:
- I think that science is rational, because it only asserts that there are facts (example: dropped stone falls to the ground; you can try it yourself) and thet there are logical pathways (reasoning) that lead to other facts (example: earth's motion is governed by the same principle as the stone's fall). I shall use this 'definition' as a definition for the word 'rational'
- I think that every system of beliefs (a religion) is either irrational or anti-rational, because it ignores or defies the 'rational' as defined above (I know it is clumsy to define per negationem ...; however "Credo quia absurdum" somehow supports this assertion)
(N.B.: scientific assumptions (hypotheses) are not irrational, because they are 'invented' to speed up the abovementioned logical pathways to new facts; if they don't (or if they contradict previously known facts) they are promptly dismissed)
- I even go further: if some coherent system of assumptions (and the mind pathways within it) is irrational or anti-rational, then it can be and should be called a religion.
- therefore science is not a religion (and can not be)
- but stalinism (for example) is definitely an irrational (and anti-rational) system of beliefs (although trumpeted as 'scientific' and 'logical' it is not too difficult to demonstrate that the basic assumptions of stalinism contradicted the facts and that the pathways to new facts within it were not logical)
- therefore stalinism (and nazism and all things similar) is a religion.
- can atheism be a religion? My opinion: hardly. Is it science? definitely no. Atheism is not a coherent system; it is just a (negative) statement.
- is science atheistic? No - science can just observe that 'a god' (theos) can not be deducted from known facts and that the assumption of god's existence does not 'speed up' logical reasoning and it does not lead to new (yet unknown) facts.
that's it. I hope I didn't offend anybody, as this was not my intention; merely expressing some thoughts.
thanks for reading
Sasa
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 26, 2007 12:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Louis Pasteur - Devout Christian, made fundamental contributions to microbiology and medicine (pasteuration, vaccination) and also demonstrated that life would not spontaneously form from simple nutients
George Lemaitre - Belgian Catholic priest who made fudamental contributions to Big Bang cosmology theories; contemporary of Einstein.
So they weren't atheists... so what? Believe what you want to believe - isn't that a primary foundation of the US Declaration of Independence? I mean, you can believe whatever you want to believe... and noone will burn you at the stake, either. Though I do find it easy to imagine Dawkins in the robes of the Spanish Inquisition...(Monty Python version, that is...)
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» RE: Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Meaningless polemics from Dawkins...
Posted by: ankhet
» Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: alternetleslie
» clarification
Posted by: alternetleslie
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Davidco
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Davidco
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Davidco
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Davidco
» Of strawmen and gods...
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: flapdoodle
» RE: Dawkins brain MRI proof personal incapacity
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: Lector on Jan 26, 2007 1:08 AM
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“Dawkins often treats evidence as something to shoehorn into his preconceived theoretical framework” And religion doesn’t? And McGrath has no preconceived framework?
“that religion can be explained away on scientific grounds, and that religion leads to violence.”Not all, but history is full of examples that religion has it’s hand in it
“Dawkins dogmatically insists that religious belief is "blind trust," Read the Bible; it insists you must have faith and faith is "blind trust" so how is Dawkins wrong?
“So why do people believe in God, when there is no God to believe in?” What kind of ridiculous circular logic is this? “For Dawkins, religion is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes.” And the stories that have founded religions make more sense? “His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.” What is more superficial than the stories of the Bible and other religions? Jack and the Beanstalk then has just as much credibility.
“So are all ideas viruses of the mind?” This is the only idea I can agree with here; maybe we’d all be better off with Zen.
“But who decides what is "rational" and "scientific"? Dawkins does not see this as a problem, believing that he can easily categorize such ideas, separating the sheep from the goats.” But who decides which religion is true and which is not?
“The main argument of The God Delusion, however, is that religion leads to violence and oppression…the harsh reality is that religious and anti-religious violence has happened."
McGrath doesn’t have a leg to stand on here either. Since most societies, with few exceptions, are full of religious institutions…there very few people who don’t believe in some sky god or other fantasy that when they die they will be propelled into another world or past life in some form and ultimately all this leads to arguments mixed in with political agendas. Let’s face it, religion only can add to the problem
the Soviet Union's crushing of religion relied on its own authority, but wars started in the name of religion are no different; it’s just relying on another authority. McGrath constantly uses the Soviet Union as an example of the bad behavior of atheists. This is sad. He hasn't understood or read Russian political history.
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» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: mazel
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: jkisha
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: famouspipeliner
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: McGrath's logic is no better or worse than Dawkins
Posted by: blitzmesser
» Miracles
Posted by: Lector
» RE: Miracles
Posted by: blitzmesser
» Tolerance, people...
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: Tolerance, people...
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Tolerance, people...
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: Tolerance, people...
Posted by: justAnEgg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: charlieparisek on Jan 26, 2007 1:28 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here goes:
Space is limited, so let's look (at) two core arguments -- that atheism can be explained away on religious grounds, and that atheism leads to an empty, soulless life. McGrath implies that atheistiic belief is blind trust, which refuses to take due account of theological evidence, or subject itself to examination. So why do people believe in atheism, when there is God? For McGrath, atheism is simply the accidental and unnecessary outcome of biological or psychological processes. His arguments for this bold assertion are actually quite weak, and rest on an astonishingly superficial engagement with scientific studies.
For example, consider this argument. Since belief in atheism is utterly irrational (one of McGrath's assumptions, by the way), there has to be some biological or psychological way of explaining why so many people -- in fact, by far the greater part of the world's population -- fall victim to such a delusion. One of the explanations that McGrath offers is that believing in atheism is like being infected with a contagious virus, which spreads throughout entire populations. Yet the analogy -- belief in atheism is like a virus -- seems to then assume ontological substance. Belief in atheism is a virus of the mind.
Get the point?
I don't know the answer to the GOD IS /GOD IS NOT argument, but if anything I would rather tend to give Mr Dawkins the benefit of the doubt if all that the GOD IS crowd can come up with is thinly veiled religious rants from the likes of Mr Alister McGrath.
Perhaps the good man was under some pressure to justify his tenure as Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University? If so, it would behoove him (and the University) to do better than this.
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» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: factbased
» DEEP THINKING FROM factbased
Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: DEEP THINKING FROM factbased
Posted by: factbased
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: charlieparisek
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: THE MCGRATH DELUSION
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: uncleboko on Jan 26, 2007 3:26 AM
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» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: notabilia
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: juergen
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Dawkins is the voice of reason
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: marid on Jan 26, 2007 4:04 AM
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Oh I forgot, I am not allowed to question any religion. Sorry for being rational.
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» Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: marid
» Thank's For Clarifying.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: MrAllen
» Might I Suggest A Kindly Missionary Atheist Send Me A Free Copy?
Posted by: grumble-bum
» "Dear John,"
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: Might I Suggest A Kindly Missionary Atheist Send Me A Free Copy?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Might I Suggest A Kindly Missionary Atheist Send Me A Free Copy?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Freedom From Reality?
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: Tatarize on Jan 26, 2007 4:05 AM
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» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
Posted by: juergen
» Actually there's a difference there.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
Posted by: youaretheother
» RE: You're half right... it's no better.
Posted by: Tatarize
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Posted by: THIAHB on Jan 26, 2007 4:39 AM
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He tells us that Dawkins’ core arguments are that God can be disproved scientifically and that religion leads to violence, both of which are simplistic misrepresentations.
Dawkins doesn’t say God can be disproved scientifically – rather he argues that relying on God to explain the wonderful complexity of life, the universe and everything, sticks you with an even bigger problem of explaining where God came from. There is no need for God because Evolution, a powerful and subtle underlying principle, is adequate to the task.
The author then claims that Dawkins believes that belief in God is a “mind virus” – I think Dawkins would use the term “meme” – and challenges Dawkins to produce a meme.
In fact, Dawkins points to a vast body of research showing that faith has roots in the structures of the brain, the psychology of the parent-child bond and social conditioning.
“So are all ideas viruses of the mind?” the author asks. Yes, because a meme is a theoretical unit of information transmission, very similar to the concept of a gene with all the implications this has for memetic variation and self-preservation.
Again misrepresenting Dawkins, the author says Dawkins classifies religious ideas as mental viruses, while scientific ideas rise above this classification. No, all ideas are memes.
The author then trots out that old chestnut: who decides what is rational and scientific? I thought theologians had given up on this argument, but some still try to clothe religious beliefs in “science” in a bid for credibility.
Science is based on the adherence to the scientific method. Religion is not scientific because it cannot provide evidence nor can its claims be replicated by independent observers.
The author seems to accept this point but rather than accept that religion alone is unproven, he attempts to drag science down with the argument that it’s impossible to prove anything!
What’s the point in talking then? We should all take our toys and go home. Of course, this argument that everything is subjective is nonsense because individuals, through independent observation of the same phenomenon, can reach agreement on objective facts.
The author then moves on, summarising Dawkins’ argument as: religion leads to violence. This is a rather inelegant precis of Dawkins’ point which is that religions need to suppress opposing ideas. In extreme cases this leads to violence but even the most peaceful of religious people can be remarkably resistant, even hostile, towards those who question their faith.
The author then attempts another of the party tricks for which the faithful are famous: the conflation of atheism with other non-religious ideas such as socialism. Atheists commit acts of violence, too, but it’s difficult to think of a case where they did it in the name of atheism! Sadly, there are too many examples of violence committed in the name of religion. And the trappings of religion are used by dictators who capitalise on people’s weakness for faith, eg blind faith in socialism.
The God Delusion was a plea for reason, a rebuke to the idea that having faith without reason is a virtue. Far from being shrill or defensive, it was a positive statement on behalf of people who have rejected faith in favour of rationality.
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» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: thogatthog
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: sg
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: sg
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Blind faith is no virtue - too late?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gsmiley on Jan 26, 2007 4:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How this works might best be looked at in a historical context. We are all the descendants of usurpers at some point in the past, and all those campaigns of settlement and conquest have been authorized by a true god who rejoiced in the retreats of the skraelings, the murder of the Amalekites, Canaanaites, and approved the civilizing of savages even as they were shot, poisoned, subjugated; their lands, properties and women confiscated and abused. (Although the Soviets accomplished this without God they too had a unifying idea which was not atheism but ownership by the proletariat of the means of production. Unfortunately this turned out to be even less effective than private property).
This just happens to be a limited world and somehow our conflicting social and selfish instincts have to be put in the right balance in the right time and place if we are to go forth and multiply in the face of some pretty tough competition. The exponential mathematics of growth , unlike its justifying theologies, is incontrovertible. A meager 2% p.a. population growth, doubling every forty years or so will see us with standing room only in less than five centuries. Long before that I suggest the followers of the TRUE god (proof lies in victory just read the Bible, Koran or whatever) will have vastly reduced the competition whether by war, or happy accident like crop failure or plague and I am sure the last of our ridiculous species, dying of heat stroke in some cave in northern Greenland will go dickering and importuning the almighty, everlasting figment of his imagination that got him to this place; that will be religion's final triumph and failure. Dawkins' is his lack of compassion for a nearly sapient species still clinging to his sustaining delusions.
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» RE: Dawkins' failure
Posted by: jontv
» RE: Dawkins' failure
Posted by: gsmiley
» Your failure
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: Door man on Jan 26, 2007 5:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Dawkins begins to wield the same amount of power and influence that these fellows do complete with Universities and meeting halls, then I will have some concern; but not until then.
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» RE: Dawkins evangelists for atheism
Posted by: MartianBachelor
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Posted by: Lois on Jan 26, 2007 5:31 AM
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Please.
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» Cooptation is the real issue
Posted by: Davidco
» RE: adversarial balance
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: adversarial balance
Posted by: fork
» RE: adversarial balance
Posted by: klondike_yukon
» RE: PLEASE Alistar
Posted by: Blabdy
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Posted by: Moonray on Jan 26, 2007 5:39 AM
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Is it "aggressive" to point out that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and not 5, as the theologians would have us believe? What nonsense.
McGrath and his fellow superstition-peddlers have no substance to their arguments so they are left to whine, obfuscate and prevaricate -- which is what ministers do best.
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» RE: McGrath's argument has no substance; is this the best he can do?
Posted by: sayswho
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Posted by: hquain on Jan 26, 2007 5:41 AM
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Those who deny this compelling deduction deserve every insulting adjective you can attach to their names, along with a few adverbs attached to the adjectives.
It appears that the job description for "Oxford theologian" is rather like that for White House Press Secretary.
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» brilliantly said
Posted by: anniedine
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Posted by: edraven on Jan 26, 2007 5:55 AM
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Christians who actually read the entire Bible, not just the carefully picked verses that somewhat seem rational, will find the most disgusting treatment of humans by your so called God.
...And logic: the book says that God gave his only begotten son, so that whosoever believes in him will have everlasting life. When I was young and a Lutheran, I thought that was one of the most beautiful things that I had ever read. When I grew up and found out that Santa Claus was not real, I thought about that beautiful passage. Why would an all powerful God create a son, then kill him for no reason. God could have just given us everlasting life, if we believed in him.
Most of the things that God did in the Bible were unnecessary for an all powerful God. They seem to really be the ravings of ignorant people trying to control others. Like the Witch Doctors.
If you can't defend your faith (delusion) without using lies, personal attacks, or parroting the flawed logic of others - - maybe there is nothing to defend.
Ed Graham
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» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: sg
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: plarue
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: mindcryme
» RE: Alister McGrath - - Shame on you.
Posted by: bornxeyed
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Posted by: BUSHisLiar on Jan 26, 2007 6:23 AM
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» RE: Godel's "incompleteness"/Quantum uncertainty
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Godel's "incompleteness"/Quantum uncertainty
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: no predictions
Posted by: ailiergauche
» RE: Godel's "incompleteness"/Quantum uncertainty
Posted by: Tatarize
» Brilliantly put, sg...
Posted by: aebartle
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: bornxeyed
» When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: When people started accepting irrational things on faith.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof of your god...............
Posted by: blitzmesser
» Show me the proof, any proof that no god exists.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof that no god exists.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Show me the proof, any proof that no god exists.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: chalet on Jan 26, 2007 6:26 AM
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» RE: Historical Theology
Posted by: juergen
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Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 26, 2007 6:35 AM
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» This debate is just getting started
Posted by: anniedine
» RE: This debate is just getting started
Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: This debate is just getting started
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jan 26, 2007 6:43 AM
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How can one evaluate reality? This is the core question. Science is the answer.
To anyone who believes in God, answer this:
If god is all powerful, then god is responsible for all the evil in the world.
If humankind has "free will," then god is not all powerful.
This in not my original idea.
You can see where this is going, right?
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» RE: Science/Religion harmonized
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Science/Religion harmonized
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Tai chi nonsense
Posted by: Ripcord
» Completely wrong.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Incompletely wrong.
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Incompletely wrong.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Incompletely wrong.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: B.F. Skinner
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» It's not about revealing God, it's pointing out an implication.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: It's not about revealing God, it's pointing out an implication.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: It's not about revealing God, it's pointing out an implication.
Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Science v. Religion- Some Answers.
Posted by: sasha40
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: eric555
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: shhazam4
» RE: Science v. Religion.
Posted by: mindcryme
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Posted by: daniel1982 on Jan 26, 2007 6:51 AM
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The few religion electives I took at my university (University of Toronto) certainly held the view that Paul essentially created Christianity - maybe because that was a secular university which had no baggage of dogma?
I'm disappointed with this review though. Yes Dawkins wrote that religion creates conflict where there should be none - I think that goes without saying. Jews in American are indistinguishable from the mainstream Caucasian population, yet that community is frequently the target of attacks. Get rid of religion and thats one less thing to worry about.
Of course the review didn't even touch on Dawkins' criticism of why believe in a God in the absence of evidence, and further .. why believe in YOUR God out of all of the other ones (whether your God is the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God or the Hindu Gods). If I become a Catholic and there are about 1 billion Catholics in the world, I have about 1 in 6 chance of being right and going to heaven.
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» RE: St. Paul the father of Christianity?
Posted by: juergen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 26, 2007 7:01 AM
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If you, the reader of this, worship some being or beings- good for you. If you choose not to, however defined, good for you as well. Go on and express your faith or non-faith in a manner respectful of others. Just do not force it down the throat of others, especially since the results are not in.
The critical difference, for this discussion, between atheists and others who doubt or deny God is their absolute insistence that they are absolutely correct. This attitude is no different than that of some crackpot televangelist predicting the end of the world for fun and profit. Since no person has seen god & humans do not have universal knowledge, it is just as arrogant to be aggressively atheist as it is to be aggressively a member of any faith.
Until the general perception of atheists is that of a more tolerant group of people, they will continue to be viewed as a bunch of extremist nutballs by many. A little tolerance and a little less arrogance would go a long way to acceptance in the culture at large.
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» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: hellofriends
» Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: aaronfetty
» RE: Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: sayswho
» RE: Agnosticism makes more sense
Posted by: Rungle
» RE: eligion ≠ Theism
Posted by: famouspipeliner
» Atheists are on the defensive, NOT intolerant
Posted by: JesseJames
» RE: Atheists are on the defensive, NOT intolerant
Posted by: NoPCZone
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cellis56 on Jan 26, 2007 7:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And anyway, why the polemic against an ideology gasping for air in a country happily inhaling ignorance? A country that put Darwin on a hit list to maintain its fictions? (Ranking second from last place in the world in its faith in science.)
Relax. You've got atheists on the run but forget about stamping out the last vestiges of intelligent life.
Like most atheists, I find the Flying Spaghetti Monster a lot more credible than your inventions.
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» RE: Psychologizing
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» RE: Shrill
Posted by: blitzmesser
» FSM is the ruler of the universe!
Posted by: doctorsquared
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Posted by: evan.leonard on Jan 26, 2007 7:15 AM
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A book: The Architecture of the Soul
One person here mentioned evolution as a way to explain life without needing a concept of God. Perhaps evolution is a conception of God? Perhaps our knowledge of evolution is the Creator becoming aware of itself. Perhaps, when examined without fear, both sides are also true.
Evan
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