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My Beef With Vegetarianism
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A strange thing happened -- the little body seemed to be resilient, the brick fell to one side, and the kitten continued its miaowing. With shaking hands I picked up the brick again and proceeded to crush the little ball of living matter until the very entrails came out, and at last it was silent, and I scraped up the remains of the kitten with a shovel and took them off to the rubbish heap, and as I did it my head swam and I felt sick.
Somehow, amid the myriad slaughters of World War II, it takes a frail and worthless kitten -- "as insignificant as a worm" -- to teach us something about the tenacity of life and the awfulness of taking it away.
I'm not sure where I was when I came across this passage some thirty-odd years ago, but I'm pretty sure it was in close proximity to settling down to a steak or chicken dinner. If I made any connection between the kitten and the dead animal I was about to consume, it has been erased from my memory. But if I had made such a connection, what exactly would it have been? Certainly, pulverizing a poor defenseless creature is bad. But does that mean that dispatching it quickly and efficiently in a modern abattoir with the good utilitarian purpose of feeding the hungry is good? If "defenseless" is the operative word here, does that mean it is morally permissible to take the life of a fellow creature as long as we give it a sporting chance to fight back or escape -- in a bullring, perhaps, or out in the wild? Or maybe sentience is the relevant issue (as utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer, author of the 1975 manifesto Animal Liberation, maintains), in which case it may be bad to kill a kitten, but it's OK to kill an animal further down the evolutionary scale, such as a frog, a fish or a bug.
On the other hand, if life is the highest value and taking it is never, ever permissible, then what are we to do in the case of a poisonous snake that is about to strike a sleeping infant? Kill one to save the other, or stand back and let nature take its course? If all lives are equally precious, how can we choose between the two?
These are the kinds of conundrums that Tristram Stuart chews on in The Bloodless Revolution, his intelligent, readable, if ultimately unsatisfying, account of Western vegetarianism from the Elizabethan Age to the present. Many people no doubt regard vegetarianism as inherently frivolous and hence an unsuitable topic for serious intellectual history. But if The Bloodless Revolution does anything, it is to prove such skeptics wrong. One way or another, it shows that vegetarians have been in the forefront of some of the most important controversies of the modern era. The reason is not hard to fathom. Like everything else in life, food is multidimensional, which is why the question of whether to order fruit salad or a BLT is never solely a matter of taste but touches on everything from morality and aesthetics to agricultural policy, humanity's place in the natural world and even constitutional affairs. In the eighteenth century, to cite just one example, beef was as central to the English self-image as cheap gasoline currently is to that of the United States. Just as the ability to cruise down a highway in an SUV or pickup is what distinguishes an American from a Frenchman paying $7 a gallon to tool around in some mini-subcompact, the ability to consume great slabs of cow flesh was what distinguished John Bull from "Frogs" dining on onions and snails. Scruffy vegetarians seeking to take all that red meat away were barely distinguishable from Jacobin sympathizers wishing to guillotine the House of Lords.
If we are what we eat, in other words, then modifying the national diet was seen as the quickest route to changing the political structure, while resisting such demands was part and parcel of defending the status quo. Their analysis may have been naïve, but vegetarians' ambitions were immense and their critique was nothing if not sweeping.
Stuart begins his tale with Sir Francis Bacon, appropriately enough since Bacon was both a key figure in the Scientific Revolution that gave us modernity and keenly interested in the question of diet, health and longevity. This was a big issue in the seventeenth century for primarily scriptural reasons. The opening pages of the Bible are filled with people who live eight or nine centuries. But then, following Noah and his ark comes Genesis 9:3, in which God specifically gives permission to eat meat ("Everything that lives and moves will be food for you"). With that, longevity plummets. Since few people questioned the truth of such tales, the issue, as Bacon saw it, was what one had to do with the other -- whether not eating meat was the reason Methuselah lived 969 years or whether it was merely coincidental. Bacon never advanced beyond the speculative stage, but Thomas Bushell, one of his acolytes (and, it was widely reported, one of his lovers), put his master's theory to the test by retiring to the Calf of Man, a one-square-mile islet in the Irish Sea, following a period of riotous debauchery in the gaming houses, theaters and brothels of London. Bushell was hardly the first person to adopt a hermitic lifestyle, but he may have been the first to eschew meat and alcohol with the express purpose of improving his health. Although falling short of Methuselah's record, he lived to the ripe old age of 80 and died a wealthy man after developing the silver and lead mines of nearby Wales.
A surge of vegetarianism followed during the revolutionary period of the 1640s and '50s, when England was torn by civil war between parliamentary Roundheads and royalist Cavaliers. Rather than scientific exploration, the goal this time was more overtly political. The similarity between the mistreatment of animals and the common folks' ill treatment at the hands of the old ruling class was too obvious to ignore. Eliminating one surely entailed putting a stop to, or at least limiting, the other. Thus, a radical preacher named John Robins declared himself the new Adam and demanded that his followers, known as the Ranters, give up meat and alcohol so as to "reduce the world to its former condition, as it was before the fall of the first Adam," in the words of one of his disciples. A bricklayer-preacher in the town of Hackney told an excited crowd that "it is unlawfull to kill any creature that hath life because it came from God." An ex-soldier named Roger Crab accused his oppressors of "thirsting after flesh and blood" and asserted that "humour that lusteth after flesh and blood is made strong in us by feeding of it." Not feeding of it was the surest way to eliminate such aggressive tendencies.
A growing number of travelogues from India, the world capital of vegetarianism, gave such arguments an inestimable boost. Europeans were astonished by stories of Brahmans who lived on fruits and vegetables and of Jains who regarded life as so valuable that they swept the streets to avoid stepping on insects. A Dutchman named John Huygen van Linschoten reported in the 1590s that Indians "kill nothing in the world that has life, however small and useless it may be." An Englishman named Ralph Fitch wrote that they even have "hospitals for sheepe, goates, dogs, cats, birds, and for all other living creatures," adding that "when they be old and lame, they keepe them until they die." This was an eye-opener for Europeans who automatically killed their animals when they were past the productive age. Although Westerners assumed that meat and alcohol was what made them more manly, the French traveler François Bernier noted in the 1660s that Indian armies traveled more quickly on rice and dried lentils than European armies weighed down by their barrels of salted beef and tankards of wine. Indian ways were not only different but might actually be superior.
Unfortunately for vegetarianism, however, it was also during the Enlightenment that the ideology's shortcomings grew more obvious. The most difficult had to do with ethics. Vegetarianism is most fundamentally about the importance of not taking life other than under the most extreme circumstances. But cruel as it is to kill an ox or a pig, nature is even crueler. A tiger or wolf does not knock its prey senseless with a single blow to the forehead and then painlessly slit its jugular; rather, it tears it to pieces with its teeth. Freeing an animal so that it could return to its natural habitat meant subjecting it to a life of greater pain rather than less. This was disconcerting because it suggested that animals might be better off on a farm even if they were to be slaughtered in the end. There was also the fact that human agriculture created life that would not otherwise exist. If people stopped eating meat, the population of pigs, cattle and sheep would plummet, which meant that the sum total of happiness, human or otherwise, would diminish. This was enough to persuade the Comte de Buffon, a freethinker and naturalist, to declare in 1753 that man "seems to have acquired a right to sacrifice" animals by breeding and feeding them in the first place.
Vegetarians were unsure how to respond. Benjamin Franklin turned anti-meat at one point and for a time regarded "the taking of every Fish as a kind of unprovok'd Murder." But he had a change of heart when he noticed the many small fish inside the stomach of a freshly caught cod: "Then thought I, if you eat one another, I don't see why we mayn't eat you." But Franklin's contemporary, the radical English vegetarian Joseph Ritson, wrestled with the same problem only to reach the opposite conclusion. He railed against "sanguinary and ferocious" felines, and when his nephew killed a neighbor's cat on the grounds that it had just murdered a mouse, he sent the boy a note of congratulations: "Far from desiring to reprove you for what I learn you actually did, you receive my warmest approbation of your humanity." Vegetarians wanted to knock Homo sapiens off their pedestal and bring them down to the level of the other animals. Simultaneously, they wanted to turn human beings into supercops patrolling nature's furthest recesses in order to rein in predators and impose a more "humane" regime.
Some of the Western world's most exemplary intellectuals immersed themselves in debates of this sort. Leonardo da Vinci ranted against cruelty to animals, worried that eating eggs deprived future beings of life and reportedly purchased caged birds for the sole purpose of setting them free. Isaac Newton admired vegetarians and believed in the humane treatment of animals, although reports that he was a vegetarian himself proved exaggerated when a bill from a butcher, poulterer and fishmonger turned up among his personal effects after his death. Except for the occasional egg, Descartes limited himself to a fruit-and-vegetable diet in hopes that it would give him long life (he died at age 54). Shelley, who adopted vegetarianism at around age 20, believed not only that eating meat made people violent but that it fed the desire for luxury goods, a prime factor in the growth of human inequality. The hope was that the rich might not lord their wealth so much over the poor if they ate a humble diet.
Somewhat less exemplary -- or exemplary in a different way -- was Adolf Hitler, who gave up meat for a time in 1911 to treat a stomach ailment and then again in 1924 to shed some weight. Thereafter, he became a dedicated vegetarian, believing, according to Stuart, that a meat-free diet was the only thing that "alleviated his chronic flatulence, constipation, sweating, nervous tension, trembling of muscles, and the stomach cramps that convinced him he was dying of cancer." (The recent movie Downfall shows him consuming a meatless last supper of ravioli in tomato sauce before committing suicide in his Berlin bunker.) Urged on by their Führer, Nazi officials nagged Germans to abandon sausage and potatoes for "more natural diets based on wholesome roots, fruits and cereals," according to The Bloodless Revolution, and "legally obliged bakers to sell wholemeal bread -- the patriotic food of the great German peasant." German theosophists applauded, as did George Bernard Shaw and meat-eschewing Seventh Day Adventists. The latter group declared in 1933 that Germany had at long last gained a leader "who has his office from the hand of God, and who knows himself to be responsible to Him. As an anti-alcoholic, non-smoker, and vegetarian, he is closer to our own view of health reform than anybody else." The same regime that sent millions to the death camps, Stuart adds, promulgated rules for the humane slaughter of fish and crustaceans.
What drew Hitler to vegetarianism were most likely its antihumanist and authoritarian elements. "The monkeys, our ancestors of prehistoric times, are strictly vegetarian," he pointed out on one occasion. "If I offer a child the choice between a pear and piece of meat," he said on another, "he'll quickly choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking." Atavism was a virtue, of course, because it put the good Nazi in touch with his inner beast. "Man, alone amongst the living creatures," Hitler added, "tries to deny the laws of nature" -- laws that Nazism was out to reimpose. Since 1945 this nihilist strain has been carried forward by such figures as the Fascist vegetarian Maximiani Portas (a k a Savitri-Devi), who argued that "you cannot 'de-nazify' Nature" and, says Stuart, "laments that ancient forests have been destroyed to build roads, cities and to grow food for 'more and more people who might as well never have been born.'"
This is fascinating stuff. But it is at this point that The Bloodless Revolution loses narrative steam, which is odd considering vegetarianism's dramatic resurgence in recent years among pierced and tattooed twentysomethings. Instead of Trotskyists, Maoists and Social Democrats going at one another hammer and tongs, progressive circles are now witness to arguments over the merits of soy versus dairy, while "dumpster-divers" demonstrate their contempt for capitalist waste by subsisting on the discards from restaurants. Stuart says nothing about such developments; instead he winds up with a rather cursory two-page summary in which he criticizes "the old anthropocentric speciesism which attributes moral worth to entities according to how similar they are to 'us'" and acknowledges that "human self-interest" will always be a factor in determining agricultural policy; but he never explains how we can have one without the other. While not embracing vegetarianism entirely, he is clearly sympathetic and, where meat is concerned, comes out squarely in favor of a policy of less is more. "The equation," he says, "is simple: if we ate less unsustainably produced meat we would destroy fewer forests, use less water, emit fewer greenhouse gases and conserve the world's resources for future generations."
But calling something simple does not make it so. No sane person favors unsustainably produced meat. But, tellingly, Stuart does not consider the possibility of meat that is sustainably produced in accordance with the strictest environmental standards. Should we eat less of that also? Or more? Perhaps the issue should not be quantity but quality -- not whether we should eat more or less but whether we should eat better, which is to say chicken that tastes like something other than cardboard, turkey that tastes like something other than Styrofoam and so on. Maybe the solution is to reject bland industrial products and demand meat with character, the kind that comes from animals that have not spent their lives in industrial feedlots but have had an opportunity to walk around and develop their muscles.
On a more fundamental level, perhaps the problem has to do with the awful word "speciesism." In arguing for a balance between animal welfare, ecology and human self-interest, Stuart is advocating what some political theorists call the "parcellization" of human sovereignty, its division and subordination amid an array of competing interests. The idea is that instead of reigning supreme over nature, humanity should take its place within nature alongside its fellow animals. Instead of domination, this implies sharing, harmony and other New Age virtues. But the trouble with sovereignty is that it cannot be fragmented or reduced; either it's supreme and indivisible or it's not, in which case it's no longer sovereignty. Although vegetarians may think that surrendering human supremacy will reduce the harm that people do to the environment, any such effort is invariably counterproductive. Denying humans their supreme power means denying them their supreme responsibility to improve society, to safeguard the environment on which it depends and even -- dare we say it -- to improve nature as well.
Besides, humans are already sovereign -- the trouble is that most of them don't realize it or, for political reasons, refuse to acknowledge it, maintaining instead that real sovereignty lies with God, nature or the free market. But real-life experience tells us otherwise. Since vegetarians began warning in the eighteenth century that the earth would run out of food unless everyone immediately shifted to potatoes and grain, the global population has more than sextupled, global per capita income has increased nearly tenfold even when inflation is taken into account, while consumption of meat, poultry and seafood has risen as well, up 37 percent in the United States since 1909 and even more strongly in less developed portions of the world. More people are living better and eating more richly than anyone in the 1700s would have thought possible. Regardless of whether they are consuming more meat and poultry than is good for them, it is yet another reminder, as if any more were needed, of how thoroughly Malthusian myths about limits to human productivity have been shattered.
Scarcity no longer serves as an argument for vegetarianism, and neither, for that matter, does health, since we know from studies of Okinawan centenarians and others that small amounts of meat and dark-fleshed fish are good for you; that moderate amounts of alcohol (which vegetarians for some reason appear to avoid) is good for you as well; and that plenty of exercise, a sense of well-being that comes from a strong social structure and, of course, universal healthcare are equally essential.
So the next time you tuck into a plate of tagliatelle Bolognese, a leg of lamb or a proper coq au vin made from some rangy old rooster that's had more lovers than most of us can dream of, you should see it not just as a chance to fill your stomach but, rather, as an occasion to celebrate humanity's ongoing struggle to create abundance out of scarcity. Venceremos! It's a lot better than wallowing in the silly defeatism of a diet of tofu and sprouts.
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Posted by: Rshaw on Jan 22, 2007 3:38 AM
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» RE: what the hell
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» RE: what the hell
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» Famines do not occur in democracies
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» How many democracies...
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Posted by: socialpsych on Jan 22, 2007 3:47 AM
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You are walking along the margins of a forest and find some ripe wild raspberries. Would you eat some?
On another occassion, you are walking along a road and see a dead deer, freshly killed by a passing truck. Would you eat some?
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» I don't think I'll give the right answers, either
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» Eat it.
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» Eat roadkill -- ABSOLUTELY !!! I often do ....
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 22, 2007 3:53 AM
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Our obsession with meat is another thing (eg: http://www.slate.com/id/2157840/?GT1=9010).
I agree that some of it is a Red State thing, like big gas-guzzling trucks: It's our right as Americans to do whatever the hell we want, because we're #1.
Another thing I noticed is that old people love meat. Go to your local supermarket and see who's mulling around the meat section...So the way I figure, we just have to wait for all the old people to die off, and our per-capita meat consumption will go down.
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Posted by: goldfishlaugh on Jan 22, 2007 3:56 AM
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And of all the vegetarians I've known (many of them borderline alcoholics), food scarcity has never been their motivation, and health has only been a secondary factor, after the concerns of the cruel and environmentally destructive conditions of the modern meat industry which views feeling and often-intelligent creatures as nothing more than objects to be used for profit.
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» RE: Talk to some real vegetarians
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» modern meat
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» Thanks for pointing out the author's stupidity and ignorance
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Posted by: bbfmail on Jan 22, 2007 4:26 AM
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Seems like this book is being reviewed by an obvious lover of meat. I suggest he go to PETA for some information on how kindly the animals are killed during the "factory" farming process.
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» Yep, you're right
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» RE: Yep, you're right what culture?
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Posted by: igoeja on Jan 22, 2007 4:34 AM
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My energy consumption is relatively low, as I live in a major city and very selectively use automobiles for transportation. Lately though, I have been reminded that domesticated animals are large contributors to global warming (methane creation) and inefficient protein producers (4 to 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat). Additionally, vegetarianism, and related calorie reduction, are associated with increased longevity. Both have pushed my back to vegetarianism.
Regardless of the history, vegetarianism is a better choice. The legitimate gripe seems to be against meat-eaters.
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Posted by: kww355 on Jan 22, 2007 4:34 AM
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» Sex...
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» Yes, food IS like art for some...
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» Uh, because vegetarian food
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Jan 22, 2007 4:40 AM
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I'm no scientist, but generally, if something appeals to taste, touch or smell, it seems to me that there are probably solid biological reasons. For the most part, the human body indicates quite effectively what it wants or needs to consume. Some exceptions might include "poisons" such as alcohol or hot peppers, but again, our bodies generally tell us when we've exceeded the benefits of a healthy dose (Okay, maybe alcohol wasn't the best example...).
I have no problem with Vegetarians, per se, but the overall logic gets pretty convoluted, in my view. I'll often ask someone who identifies themselves as such if they make that choice for health or morality reasons. If it's the former, fair enough I suppose (until recently, the "backstory" of meat has been pretty ugly for several generations), if it's the latter they'd better be ready for a healthy debate. Hey, they're the ones going around announcing their position! As for Vegans, a former Vegan friend of mine summed it up pretty well when she stated that Veganism is just a way for people to indulge in an eating disorder & simultaneously pat themselves on the back! By their logic, one might as well stop breathing...
In the end, none of these positions (my own included) is really perfect. Both a vegetable based diet & one including meat have their own flaws & benefits. I would recommend the excellent Omnivore's Dilemma for it's take on these arguments.
Now I need some breakfast...
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» "Okay, Let's Try This Again (& Again & Again & Again.....)"
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» No, I do not, I'm afraid...
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» A Flavorless Existance Is Not Worth Living.
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Posted by: colinmeister on Jan 22, 2007 4:49 AM
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» Tolerance?
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» RE: A debate without end... tolerance
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» Another Amy who doesn't eat carcass...
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» RE: A debate without end... tolerance
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Posted by: cmaciain on Jan 22, 2007 5:17 AM
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» RE: This article does not address...
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Posted by: sv on Jan 22, 2007 5:40 AM
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Berry on Hitler
Furthermore, I find it unfortunate Mr. Lazarre is so misinformed and prejudiced as to believe that vegetarians don't drink alcohol. Such ill-informed stereotyping, also evident in other parts of his article, really don't help any serious discussion on diet, lifestyle, and health.
There are a multitude of reasons to eschew meat, from the health-based to the spiritual. The most factual and proven are the incredibly deleterious affects factory farming of animals is having on our air, our soil, and our water. US factory farming is also incredibly energy-intensive, inherently barbaric, and intolerably wasteful. Meat and dairy prices in the US are unnaturally low due to government subsidies, and I, for one, am tired of paying for someone else to contribute to environmental destruction and humongous meat-diet-related health bills. Let carnivores pay the true cost, if they chose to consume such.
As a vegetarian for 26 years (last six as a vegan), I find Mr. Lazarre's attitude, unfortunately, altogether too common among people who feel they must somehow justify their consumption of dead animal body pieces by attacking those who choose not to do the same.
Mr. Lazarre would be well-served to better research the topic of vegetarianism before spreading unfounded myths as to who we are, and who we are not.
Mark
blogsite soulveggie
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» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: sv
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» actually, there are non-industry studies on the benefits of meat
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: Jayzer
» CORRECTED HITLER NOT A VEG LINK
Posted by: sv
» RE: CORRECTED HITLER NOT A VEG LINK
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: Kelly
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lady X on Jan 22, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
position on eating meat by the end of the piece.
It is amazing that vegetarianism vs meat eating has such a long and specific history.
I have been a Vegetarian since I was 15. My family are big meat eaters- usually barely cooked beef swimming in blood.
At lunch when I was 8, my grandfather brought a huge piece
of meat swimming in blood to the table- like human sacrfice.
I remember asking, "Do I have to eat this?"
I feel that meant eating, and the Old Testment notion that animals are less evolved and important than man is fascist.I think the Old Testament is fascist. Did God REALLY tell
people to eat meat? I mean, come ON.
To intentionally cause another sentient being to suffer,
when man can create many aware options about diet and
nutrition is fascist. If people ate each other it would be
cannabalism. Why is it different to eat an animal, especially
since they cannot defend themselves.
If people spent a week at a slaughter house, I bet there would be a pretty high number of converts to vegetrainsim.
The arguement that animals eat other animals is simply pathetic. Animals are driven by survival instincts in wild environments.
Man can make choices about what we eat.
We can choose not to raise animals who are born to suffer
so man can consume. Why is our identity so tied up in
subverting other species, or those perceived as weaker than we are ?
There are huge amounts of info on how to combine food groups so that people get enough, protein, minerals and
vitamins without killing animals to get food.
I believe people have to make their own choices. I also believe most people who eat meat have never really thought
about the process from force raising animals to the slaughtering of animals to when they are consumed as "food".
There was a film that came out recently called FAST FOOD NATION that many Vegetarians feel should be required viewing for everyone.
The next time you order a steak, hamburger or pork chops-
take a moment to reflect on where it came from and what
the animal might have been going through to die to become
your dinner or lunch.
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» RE: The Vegetarian Through History
Posted by: babs
» RE: The Vegetarian Through History
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: marxalot on Jan 22, 2007 5:45 AM
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You kill the snake. But take care not to feel gratified or righteous in doing so. Snakes do what snakes do.
We should try to maintain a sense of compassion for all living things, who along with ourselves must exist in an imperfect world and eventually suffer the pain of death. As a guiding principle that alone should lead you to consume less animal flesh.
And don't leave your baby out by the woodpile where the rattlers hang out.
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» RE: Kill the snake, but ...
Posted by: Lady X
» RE: Kill the snake, but ...
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Kill the snake, but ...
Posted by: Lady X
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Posted by: kwalls on Jan 22, 2007 5:49 AM
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» RE: The coming conflict of meat vs. fuel
Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: The coming conflict of meat vs. fuel
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: The coming conflict of meat vs. fuel
Posted by: colinmeister
» that's just the BS they'd like us to believe
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: that's just the BS they'd like us to believe
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» I haven't yet but
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: I haven't yet but
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» you probably have but if you haven't...
Posted by: AdamG
» It's Not Just Meat vs. Fuel! It's Food vs Fuel! We Subsidize Ethanol At The Grocery Store!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: cielo on Jan 22, 2007 5:59 AM
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Humans, as Harvey Diamond explains, are not natural carnivores:
"A carnivore's teeth are long sharp and pointed - all of them! We have molars for crushing and grinding. A carnivore's jaws move up and down only, for tearing and biting. Ours can move from side to side for grinding. A carnivore's saliva is acid and geared to the digestion of animal protein; it lacks ptyalin, a chemical that digests starches. Our saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin for the digestion of starch. A carnivore's stomach is a simple, round sack that secretes ten times more hydrochloric acid than that of a non-carnivore. Our stomachs are oblong in shape, complicated in structure, and convoluted with a duodenum.
A carnivore's intestines are three times the length of its trunk, designed for rapid expulsion of animal proteins, which quickly rot. Our intestines are twelve times the length of our trunks and designed to keep food in them until all nutrients are extracted. The liver of a carnivore is capable of eliminating ten to fifteen times more uric acid than the liver of a non-carnivore. Our livers have the capacity to eliminate only a small amount of uric acid. Uric acid is an extremely dangerous toxic substance that can wreak havoc in your body. All meat consumption releases large quantities of uric acid into the system. Unlike most carnivores and omnivores, humans do not have the enzyme uricase to break down uric acid.
A carnivore does not sweat through the skin and has no pores. We do sweat through the skin and have pores. A carnivore's urine is acid. Ours is alkaline. A carnivore's tongue is rough, ours is smooth. Our hands are perfectly designed for plucking fruit from a tree, not for tearing the guts out of the carcass of a dead animal as are a carnivore's claws."
quoted article
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» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: helgerry
» RE: Yes and , Vegetarians taste better!..
Posted by: Johnny Hempseed
» RE: Yes and , Vegetarians taste better!..
Posted by: plarue
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: babs
» human physiology isn't the only consideration
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: Humans not Carnivores... OMNIVORES
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Humans not Carnivores... OMNIVORES
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: hartsmart
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: adventuregrrl
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: l_m_n
Comments are closed-
Posted by: henderson on Jan 22, 2007 6:15 AM
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Isn’t there a theme of suffering and death and “moral superiority” running through this debate? What if “death” isn’t the “end”? What if all of this is only an illusion? What if Earth is only a playground, a place to learn “lessons” for EVERYTHING, animals included.
(“Channeled” material by Emmanuel)
The gifts I wish to give you are my deepest love, the safety of truth, the wisdom of the universe and the reality of God.
With these four things, nothing will deter you. You will follow your hearts swiftly to your destination, which is Home.
I know there is confusion and doubt and what appears to be chaos. Can you see that beneath these surface shadows there is eternal Light? This earth plane is neither the beginning nor the end of your existence. It is simply a step, a schoolroom.
My friends, let me impress upon you how solidly you are planted in eternity, how brilliantly you can shine in your own physical world, how possible it all is, how beautifully the Plan is designed.
In God’s Plan no soul is alone, no soul is ever lost.
You have become caught in the illusion that your identity rests with your capacity to struggle. It does not.
Your true identity is awaiting you beyond effort.
The key to remembering is to remind the self not to be afraid of anything, anywhere, anytime, ever.
Illusion cannot destroy reality. Can a shadow on the wall hurt you?
Death cannot kill You. Pain cannot hurt You. Disease cannot make You ill. Years cannot age You. Fear cannot touch You.
Welcome Home.
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» RE: Another viewpoint...
Posted by: homesickalien
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Posted by: wordster on Jan 22, 2007 6:17 AM
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He said;
"If life is the highest value and taking it is never, ever permissible, then what are we to do in the case of a poisonous snake that is about to strike a sleeping infant?"
Thats a complete misrepresentation. No one says it is "never, ever permissable" to take a life. I doubt anyone thinks that acting in self-defense is wrong.
And the characterization that we eat only sprouts and tofu is nonsense. I haven't had either in years. The vegan diet is delicious and unlimited.
As for the notion that humans are meant to be meat-eaters. View this short and hilarious video by Bizarro cartoonist Dan Piraro.
http://www.bizarro.com/videos/mov/VeganVideoWeb.mov
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» RE: Nonsense Review
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jan 22, 2007 6:26 AM
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Anyone who would think what and how we eat in any form to be inherently frivolous (and who are these "many people", anyway???) obviously hasn't paid much attention to the state of the world these days or over time.
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Posted by: wordster on Jan 22, 2007 6:46 AM
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But it is not simply a dietary choice, like I prefer chocolate ice-cream and you prefer vanilla or I like salt and you choose to go salt-free.
Some issues are moral issues and some are not. You would not say that someone should be tolerant if you enjoy killing, robbing, or cheating people or polluting the air that others breathe. Those are moral issues that are wrong.
Capital punishment, abortion, destroying the environment, and killing animals are also moral issues. Moral issues are usually issues that affect or hurt others. If you think morality is just a matter of opinion or taste or choice then you're saying that the rightness or wrongness of robbing or killing or polluting is just a matter of opinion or choice. Clearly, this is not true.
wordster
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» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: Astrodave
» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: Kelly
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 22, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, as someone who has actually participated in the production of meat animals, let me say that some of the horrors I have witnessed have really changed my views about eating meat. I have also seen what the agri-business takeover of meat production has done to my area. I have minimized meat in my diet, but am planning to eliminate it completely.
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» Corporate hog production destroying watersheds across the USA
Posted by: lessbread
» RE: as a farmer....
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: badkitty68 on Jan 22, 2007 7:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rest of it is the usual self-serving ramblings of the type of person who deeply resents vegetarians and vegans because they, unlike hinself, have the strength and backbone to attempt to live their ethics as best they can.
Instead of looking to nature as a role model/excuse for barbaraism and cruelty, try using the thing that you humanists are always claiming makes you so "special" - your ability to reason - and select the high road of compassion and doing no harm, BECAUSE YOU CAN. It is a position of strength, not weakness and defeatism.
Indeed, it is the author and his ilk are the true defeatists, overwhelmed by the striving for a true ethical way of being in the world, and basically given up in a angry flurry of self-justification.
And by the way, Hitler WAS NOT a vegetarian. He was a hygiene freak and went on periodic cleansing regimens during which he didn't eat meat, but his favorite dish was Squab, which I believe is pigeon.
This is another example of why I stopped my subscription to "The Nation". It is rife with such psuedo-intellectual, psuedo-progressive blatherings, and I'd rather send my money to Buzzflash, Truthout, and ICH.
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Posted by: Beck on Jan 22, 2007 7:33 AM
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I've also read that many vegetarians are the same blood type, so there is a possibility that some people will find it easy to avoid meat, and others won't. I've known several women who became vegetarian after menopause, a time of life when less iron would be needed, although these women were certain that it was only moral considerations that led to their change in diet. . It is possible that a person's main motive for avoiding meat could be moral, but that their physiology would make it easier than a person with the same moral values but different physiology. The number of vegetarians seems to be increasing, but at the same time, the treatment of animals is getting worse, not better; there seems to be no direct correlation as of yet. If a person becomes a vegetarian out of the legitimate concern over the needless suffering animals face in the way most of them are raised here in the USA, but make no other protest, then little is accomplished except personal peace of mind; important to the person but not the animals that continue to suffer. Market forces obviously matter alot, and this is apparent when you see organic products in most stores now, and even businesses like McDonalds talk of using organic beef in their future. Since America seems to be in no way close to a vegetarian diet, those who are searching out free-range, organice meat are possibly doing more to end cruelty than those avoiding the marketplace entirely.
Lastly, most of us have concerns over the earth and its future at the moment, and we often have a particular area that we focus on, but it is often to the exclusion of other important areas. I know some vegetarians who are concerned about the long-term implications of how meat is raised and avoid it for those reasons, but fly a few times a year on vacations. From what I read about global warming and flying, it seems possible that one very long flight could cancel the climate-protecting effects of months of avoiding meat.
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» RE: Plants probably have awareness, too
Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: Plants probably have awareness, too
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Plants probably have awareness, too
Posted by: candara
» Well well, another defensive meat eater out to find any
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Well well, another defensive meat eater out to find any
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Think!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Comments are closed-
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 22, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If you are vegetarian or vegan, sign below with how long you've been veg
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: If you are vegetarian or vegan, sign below with how long you've been veg
Posted by: bichomau
» RE: If you are vegetarian or vegan, sign below with how long you've been veg
Posted by: justAnEgg
» This sounds like an AA meeting
Posted by: AdamG
» I live with a recovering addict. That is a DISGUSTING comparison.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» whatfuckingever
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: whatfuckingever
Posted by: joshuawelch
» Laugh at yourself? You seem to only want to laugh at others.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» So?
Posted by: l_m_n
» You're awful defensive and critical Adam
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: You're awful defensive and critical Adam
Posted by: carcinoid112
» There I go again...
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» I plead guilty, as charged
Posted by: AdamG
» Oh, I get it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Adam, Adam
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Adam, Adam
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Adam, Adam
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 22, 2007 7:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
From Freewill by Rush
Suit yourself. Isn't that the purpose of a representative democratic republic?
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Jan 22, 2007 8:11 AM
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» RE: This guy sounds just like an addict...
Posted by: zoomorph
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Posted by: peaceyogi on Jan 22, 2007 8:28 AM
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» Oil your food.
Posted by: ssmit355
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jontv on Jan 22, 2007 8:30 AM
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My point is that vegetarianism is a choice, but for many, eating meat is not. It's just what they do. It is the norm out here in the heartland. It never occurs to most people that producing and eating large quantities of meat could be a problem for our society.
I don't think we should try to make eating meat illegal. I think people should be fully informed so they can make the choice for themselves. We are nowhere near that point, however. Most people have no idea how terrible the meat industry is for the environment, how many precious resources it wastes, how inhumanely animals are treated. People don't know, and many don't want to know. Ignorance is not the basis for responsible choices.
I think those of us with concerns about meat should continue to try to raise the level of information in the general populace. We should continue to call for more humane treatment of food animals. Unfortunately, the food we eat is such a personal thing that it's hard to talk about without people taking personal offense. But rather than getting on our high horses, we need to get better about explaining things in a non-threatening way. We need to understand that the status quo is hard to change, the forces that drive the over-consumption of meat are strong, and that fully informing people about meat is going to be a long process.
If people are fully informed and the production of meat made more local, sustainable, and humane, then I would not have a problem with other people eating meat. It would be wrong for me to choose to eat meat, knowing what I know and believing what I believe, but I can respect other choices if they are informed and responsible.
I'm not too impressed with this article, however....
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» RE: Let's make it a good choice
Posted by: Ivan_K
» Education
Posted by: Kelly
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Posted by: Raj on Jan 22, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.” Albert Einstein
More quotes:
here
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Posted by: puchanus on Jan 22, 2007 8:53 AM
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If I was to be stranded out in the wilderness I might sing a different tune. Given my present circumstances, I will choose tofu over ham because then my diet is in synch with my ethics.....
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Posted by: babs on Jan 22, 2007 8:53 AM
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An interesting review/article until the last idiotic sentence. Vegetarians are defeatist, and they eat only tofu and sprouts? I don't think so.
The author made no attempt to separate the two distinct types of vegetarians - vegans (no flesh or animal products) and ovo-lactarians (no flesh, but they eat eggs and milk products). Any discussion of this type of lifestyle must explain the difference. As well, most veggies I know drink beer - this idea that they wear self awarded halos is nonsense. They sin just like the rest of us - but they only kill carrots for fun.
Also, there are many reasons for adopting a no-flesh diet and they run the gamut from moral and health concerns, to philosophic arguments.
I eat meat (and that includes fish) only occasionally and yes, my diet includes soy, lots of vegetables and fruits, and a minimum of dairy. It's no secret that cancers of the bowel are virtually non existent in cultures that eschew meat - India being a great example.
So does the author's last sentence mean that while tofu eaters are silly defeatists, meat eaters are smart and victorious? What a load of lard! It's this kind of stupidity and ignorance that keeps Mickey Ds in business and casts a jaundiced eye on anyone who doesn't pack at least 500 grams of fat onto their creaking frames while chowing down on chicken-fried steak (who the hell thought of that one anyway?).
But these are uber-partisan days so when you grow tired of inventing Islamo-fascist enemies, why not turn to criticizing healthy diets? And ain't North America just a beacon for wise eating - LOL - and lots of it, with gravy please.
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» Nice rant!!
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Nice rant!!
Posted by: babs
» Let's see...India? Chicken Fried Steak??
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Back to the Earth
Posted by: ssmit355
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Jan 22, 2007 8:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get off your flesh-eating high horse, pal.
This article was very interesting to me until its author started giving his personal opinion and diverged from discussion of the book's strengths and weaknesses. His "beef" with vegetarianism seems more spured by guilt and irritation that we vegs have the right idea after all.
But additionally, I am not interested in seeing any more articles about vegetarianism on Alternet because all you guys do is make fun of us and create ridiculous straw man arguments, such as the snake and the baby, as though that proves anything. Because it doesn't. Killing in defense when attacked is nothing like killing just for your pleasure of eating. Moron. But, what else could I expect from a meat-eater, anyway?
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» Of course they won't. They are becoming more status-quo all the time.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Will Alternet ever run a pro-veg article?
Posted by: Jan Frel
» RE: Will Alternet ever run a pro-veg article?
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: solrev on Jan 22, 2007 9:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» How arrogant and insipid. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: solrev
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Also...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Also...
Posted by: Astrodave
» You'll hear me say this quite often...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: drmflorida
» Re: Meat-eating Westerners and starvation in the developing world
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: e: Meat-eating Westerners and starvation in the developing world
Posted by: solrev
» Read Jared Diamonds' 'Collapse' if you haven't already
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: at when your hungrey
Posted by: Mags
» RE: at when your hungrey
Posted by: solrev
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Posted by: AdamG on Jan 22, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for the eat meat or not eat meat I'd like to weigh in with my two cents for what it's worth.
First off, I'll put it out there that I raise livestock for food and fiber(sheep, goats, and poultry). I am fully aware of the evils of the modern meat industry. How I raise and market animals has nothing in common with the industrial model. They are all pastured, live what I think seem to be fulfilling lives, and when harvested are done so as quickly and humanely as possible. The meat is then sold locally directly to the consumer. Granted, animals raised this way are not in the majority of livestock but it is seemingly increasing.
My beef with the vegetarian/vegan thing is how many of it's adherents act like they are some how morally superior or that even though I am acting in a way that I feel is responsible that I am still doing something inherently bad. I don't buy the argument that it's livestocks fault for global warming or that people are starving or an number off social and environmental ills that plague our world. It is HUMANS fault for all of this. Yes, I agree that ruminants shouldn't be forced fed tons of grain but in someways it may be good that they are. If they weren't, and the food was available for humans, can you imagine how many humans there would be? Besides, people by and large are starving because of economics, not because of lack of food.
As for the environmental thing, I believe that livestock can be raised in a way that helps conserve and enhance the environment. Rather then grow millions of acres of soy and corn to force feed cows in concentration camps, that land could be planted to grassland, probably produce as much meat, and sequester carbon in the form of increased organic matter. Not saying that no grains should be grown but annual grain/pulse monocultures are one of the most destructive innovations humanities' ever developed. Also many climates (such as the one I live in) are brittle (arid) and so grains and many traditional vegetable protein sources are not very appropriate. In such climates, grasslands are a more appropriate land use. Problem is, at least for us, we can't eat grass but animals can so it seems a natural fit for people to live in these sort of climates to farm/ranch animals. Even the native people where I'm from lived off salmon, acorns, and other animals.
This issue isn't as black and white as meat bad, veggies good or vice versa. Like anything in this world, there are many factors at play and only through observation, experience, and clear intention will we each come to our own conclusions as to what is best for us as individuals. Hopefully, eventually we can all come together, whatever our personal choices are , and cooperatively work to ensure a better future.
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» RE: Ths article was pretty mediocre but
Posted by: babs
» RE: Ths article was pretty mediocre but
Posted by: Astrodave
» Thank you, sane person.
Posted by: carcinoid112
» I Would Also Like To Thank The Sane Person...
Posted by: grumble-bum
» thanks to all of you
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jan 22, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NOW, meat is the cheapest way to fill up. It's subsidized. And being a vegetarian and/or vegan is expensive and takes a lot of chopping and cooking skill. Try it on a disability income, with a physical disability, and see what I mean.
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» RE: conomic view
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Suggestions?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Suggestions? A couple
Posted by: Kelly
» I've never chopped veggies for more than 5 min.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Almost forgot...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: conomic view
Posted by: zoomorph
» huh?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CitizenInMedia on Jan 22, 2007 10:33 AM
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Moreover, the author doesn't contemplate the simple decision which humans have. Humans have great power, but with that great power, like the cliche goes, comes great responsibility.
Moreover, the author tries the age old argument of the wild being not as bad as slaughtering animals on a farm. This is ignorant. The author is completely ignorant of the fact that the meat industry is nothing at all like it was back in Medieval times. The meat industry is factorized, bare, mechanized, cruel, diseased, unsanitary, overcrowded, and over-chemicalized. The farm that your meat comes from resembles a factory of corpses and blood rather than a good mama and papa farm who pet their cows when they milk them.
Before you start making arguments like this, you should check your facts.
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» RE: Meat Supports Poverty
Posted by: mbianco
» food as a commodity Supports Poverty
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: food as a commodity Supports Poverty-WHAT YU CAN DO
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jan 22, 2007 10:49 AM
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What is going to happen, if people want to keep eating meat, is enough to make me lose my appetite. Sooner or later someone is going to find a way to "grow" meat. They're gonna take a piece of muscle tissue and plug a few hoses into it and zap it with electricity to make it simulate exercise. After many years of this, the "alternative meat market" will grow to reach epic proportions. Just imagine it... massive multi-ton arrays of giant muscle fibers sucking down kilowatts of electricity and gallons of glucose, and who knows how much oxygen? It's really quite disgusting to think about. But I guess, to the next generation, it will be no more disgusting than say, slaughtering cows?
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» Meat is subsidized by government policy
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
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Posted by: joshuawelch on Jan 22, 2007 10:57 AM
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Posted by: techphile on Jan 22, 2007 11:11 AM
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Lastly my impression is that a reviewer who dislike vegeteranism does not really understand the many reasons that people give for not eating meat in the modern world or the role that meat eating has on environmental degradation and decreases in human health. But if beating down a strawman that he erected floats his boat more power to him.
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Posted by: lagusta on Jan 22, 2007 11:15 AM
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While some PeTA-types still subsist on horribly over processed soyfoods and, yes, perhaps sprouts, most vegetarians eat real, delicious food - just nothing dead.
Corrections:
1) That tasteless old "Hitler was a vegetarian" myth dredged up again, how tiresome. Here is a link to an article that, once again, dispels this myth: http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html.
2) There are no health arguments for vegetarianism? I find this claim so incredibly false as to be laughable, so instead of taking my valuable time to correct it, I will point you here, to a recent book by one of the most well-respected nutrition scientists in the country: The China Study, by T. Colon Campbell. See thechinastudy.com.
3) As someone who socializes almost exclusively with vegetarians, I am completely at a loss as to how Lazare came up with the idea that most vegetarians don't drink. Yes, there is a tiny subset of (mostly young) vegans who call themselves "straight edge" and do not drink, smoke, do drugs, have promiscuous sex, or eat any animal products, but these are such a small minority that I'm amazed that Lazare had even heard of them.
4) Lazare states: “But, tellingly, Stuart does not consider the possibility of meat that is sustainably produced in accordance with the strictest environmental standards. Should we eat less of that also? Or more?” “Tellingly?” What? Message from all vegetarians to all non-vegetarians: your elitist little arguments about “sustainably produced meat” really aren’t interesting to us. We don’t eat meat, we don’t want to eat meat. An argument for eating meat simply does not belong in a book about vegetarianism. Lazare’s comment reminds me of all the men who feel the need to constantly turn a discussion about feminism into one about how men are persecuted under feminism. Vegetarianism is not about meat. Books about vegetarianism are not about meat.
Oh, and that phrase “sustainably produced”: please, please, let’s not be babies and say “sustainably produced.” If you can eat a dead animal, please have the guts to call it a dead animal. A cow is not “produced.”
5) For some reason, Lazare sometimes refers to vegetarians in the past tense: “Their analysis may have been naïve, but vegetarians' ambitions were immense and their critique was nothing if not sweeping.” If no one else has yet stood up to point out this grammatical error, I am willing to stand up as an example of a present tense vegetarian, who happens to have immense ambitions for the future (a movement is not over just because the book you read about it is over, Mr. Lazare) and sweeping critiques right now, today – 2007.
I will never understand what is "defeatist" about wanting to live without causing other animals to die, especially when we know that their deaths are unnecessary.
I am a staunch AlterNet (and Nation) supporter, and I would expect an apology and corrections after this embarrassing article.
Lagusta Yearwood
lagusta.com
lagustasluscious.com
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» Hitler was a vegetarian?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Hitler was a vegetarian?
Posted by: Cathyblj
» and so it gets said again.. HITLER WAS NOT A VEGETARIAN! nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: point-by-point refutation of this ridiculousness
Posted by: jaby
Comments are closed-
Posted by: luzmejor on Jan 22, 2007 11:19 AM
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People are choosing vegetarianism because they no longer trust the food supply, not because of some silly ideas about whether it is ethical to eat animals.
In industrial societies like ours, we seldom know where anything we eat is coming from or even if the ingredients list is factual.
Could a situation like that ever be called a real "choice?"
Aside from that critique, the article showed an interesting vignette of history and psychology.
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Posted by: wondering wanderer on Jan 22, 2007 11:36 AM
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For longer than history has been written our ancestors have bred animals for their use. For wool, for leather, for silk, for dinner. Years of careful watching and breeding and learning to care for these animals have produced soft merino wool in your sweater, or a milk rich in cream. The economic feasibility of keeping sheep only for their wool, or chickens only for unfertilized eggs is nill by the way.
So, what is going to happen to this variety of domesticated beasts when we stop using them? Who is volunteering to keep a flock of Plymoth Rock chickens from extinction? Even now, their are rare heirloom varieties of cattle and and other species bred for their tolerance of micro climates that are endangered by agro business. They won't survive on their own.
Shall we let them all die "natural deaths" from starvation unless some funding for feed comes along and they can die of old age, prevent them from mating and then keeping their pictures in books- beasts we ate when we were cruel that are no more. Maybe keep a few in zoos?
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» RE: I've always wondered...who is going to adopt a sow, or a cow?
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: I've always wondered...who is going to adopt a sow, or a cow?
Posted by: Kelly
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Posted by: Chubbyrain on Jan 22, 2007 11:38 AM
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I really like meat. It tastes good, its readily available. I don't want to find alternative sources for protein. I don't enjoy getting my protein from soy or nuts, its not the same.
A further thing that bothers me about vegetarians is the hypocrisy that most exhibit. Excluding true vegans, almost all vegetarians use products or even eat food that is from animals, and as such contribute to their cruel treatment. For example, many "vegetarians" eat fish. Why is this acceptable? Fish probably have the worst death of any of the animals, gradual suffocation and sometimes a hook speared though their mouth. Are fish lesser animals than cows? Chickens? Turkeys?
Basically, if your a vegan, good for you. Your conviction impresses me although I will never be like you or believe as you do. All other vegetarians are hypocrates in some form and do what they do to make themselves feel better, but decide not to worry about the finer points of their beliefs.
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» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: joshuawelch
» your arguement is equally ridiculous
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: your arguement is equally ridiculous
Posted by: joshuawelch
» violence is an act of aggression borne of lack of understanding
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: violence is an act of aggression borne of lack of understanding
Posted by: joshuawelch
» that's just childish nonsense
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: that's just childish nonsense
Posted by: joshuawelch
» Actually, no, I'm not a Jesus freak
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: that's just childish nonsense
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: Chubbyrain
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: Jarmadi
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: Kelly
» So I have to ask
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: So I have to ask
Posted by: joshuawelch
» You shouldn't jump to conclusions
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: You shouldn't jump to conclusions
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: You shouldn't jump to conclusions
Posted by: joshuawelch
» nope, no man is an island
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: I have no problem with Vegetarians
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: mbianco on Jan 22, 2007 11:48 AM
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I think this is the most important point of the article. Once we deny man as sovereign, he ceases to become a subject of action, a transformative social force, an historical being. Vegetarianism as known today, in my opinion, arose from the 1970s introversion that occurred in the wake of the collapse of the 60's New Left. That introversion took myriad forms: environmentalism, New Age "philosophy," religious revivalism, a myopia upon health, self-help, and so on. Certainly such things as environmentalism point to worthy endeavors, but they are no substitute for a coherent political philosophy that enables a concerted, radical political struggle. Environmentalism must be subsumed under such a political philosophy, which must necessarily be anthropocentric.
The problem with what currently passes in the First World for a radical Left is that with such lifestyle choices and fashion statements (buy sweat-free, buy organic, etc.) presented as praxis, the capitalist system is not only left untouched but bolstered since such praxis supports an individualist/consumerist ethic of changing the world with one's wallet. The political actors in this case are those with wallets full of sufficient money to make these purchases.
This does nothing to address the fundamental problems of class, exploitation, and alienation. This does not imply, however, that one needs to find a way to extricate oneself from global capitalism (which would be impossible anyway), an alternative of hermitude, since this again makes this presumption, informed by bourgeois thinking, of the need for a purified individual to be subject. In my opinion, it is enough to try to develop a vision of a post-capitalist world, formulate some means to getting there, and then work towards that, even as one meanwhile continues to (necessarily) participate within that system as producer and consumer.
So eat however much or however little meat you like. Just don't wave the banner of vegetarianism as if it were an actual path to social change, because, frankly, it isn't.
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Posted by: daniel30 on Jan 22, 2007 12:02 PM
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Posted by: bornxeyed on Jan 22, 2007 1:03 PM
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Just wait until that cheap oil runs out and see how well 7 billion people will be fed compared to the 18th Century!
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Posted by: badkitty68 on Jan 22, 2007 1:08 PM
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Anyone who follows this convoluted line of thinking needs to spend a day on the main floor of a working commercial slaughter house. After that, you can come and tell those of us who refuse to support such savagery about why we're "defeatists". But whiny losers like the author never have the spine for anything that would actually force them to wake up.
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» RE: Why is Alternet running this junk?
Posted by: Chubbyrain
» RE: Why is Alternet running this junk?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Why is Alternet running this junk?
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jan 22, 2007 2:12 PM
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One dietary disaster for Americans comes from grain production, and that's the use of corn syrup in processed foods, possibly the single best reason for obesity and diabetes increasing in the population.
We may have to eat animals if that's what it takes to convert grass to food. Growing grain on the same land may not be ecologically sound. (No, I don't think that McDonalds should cut down the rain forest to raise cattle!)
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» RE: ead DIET FOR A SMALL PLANET
Posted by: joshuawelch
» RE: ead DIET FOR A SMALL PLANET--Please supply specifics
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Jan 22, 2007 2:15 PM
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Hey, we've gotten away with our total disregard of the environment somewhat until now, at least there has not been a collapse of civilization, therefore we should all just keep consuming all we want, right? Noooo, doom hasn’t hit us yet, so Daniel’s logic tells us that it never will, huh?!? The oceans have not flooded coastal cities yet and polar bear are not yet extinct, so just keep driving those gas-guzzling SUVs and not bothering to conserve or reduce carbon emissions! Oh, and there has not been a massive die off of humans due to over population, so obviously that is not an issue either, so go forth and multiply tenfold without first caring for the millions upon millions are already starving to death and without opportunity! And using six to ten times the soil, water and energy resources to eat higher on the food chain (for our personal pleasure) hasn’t led to starvation in the richer countries or a total collapse of the food supply either, so why be conscientious about our dietary choices!?!
Daniel’s encouragement to continue business as usual is truly repugnant. It is people like him that are the problem with society today.
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Posted by: homesickalien on Jan 22, 2007 2:23 PM
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Why are there so many people out there that ONLY eat meat and stay away from vegetables. Where did the cliche about kids not want to eat their broccoli and/or other veg come from? This isn't a moral issue, it's an issue of sensitivity. If we all grew up hacking heads off chicken and disembowling pigs and cows we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Of course it's a shock for people to see an animal being slaughtered after growing up safely sheltered in supermarkets and suburbs.
I've heard so many people say "I used to eat meat, then I watched a video of what goes on in a slaughter house and I will never eat meat again." Duh. What did you think happened? Stop being babies. If you don't eat meat because you don't like how it tastes, that's fine, but don't put down others because their not as sensitive as you.
Animals can eat us, so we should be able to eat them too. I doubt that herbivores have chosen their diet based on moral issues. I doubt carnivores feel any sympathy for their prey, why should we?
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» WORD!
Posted by: AdamG
» You Said it Buddy!
Posted by: zoomorph
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Posted by: Gregor on Jan 22, 2007 3:55 PM
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» There are vegetarian body builders, you know...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: There are vegetarian body builders, you know...
Posted by: hymalaia
» RE: There are vegetarian body builders, you know...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Carl Lewis became a vegan during his training for the Olympics
Posted by: ksfc
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Posted by: PW on Jan 22, 2007 4:09 PM
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How many people here own cars or trucks?
How many eat food flown in from half way around the world?
How many eat soya and corn produced by the industrial food system, or products derived from that soya and corn? Do you consider the enormous amounts of petroleum used to produce these plants?
How many people wear non organic cotton?
How many people try to buy all their food locally from farmers trying to farm outside of the industrial ag system?
How many grow their own food and store it to eat through the winter?
How many people here buy only fair trade coffee and chocolate?
There seems to be a holier than thou attitude running through most of the comments. Remember there are many other ways to make animals suffer besides eating them. Destroying the environment would probably top the list.
A little humility might be useful.
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» I couldn't agree more!
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Humility
Posted by: tunejunky
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Posted by: jurisdrdre on Jan 22, 2007 4:53 PM
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Posted by: chief of okeefe on Jan 22, 2007 5:49 PM
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BTW, I do not advocate needless cruelty to animals, but this whole issue is absurd. Life in this world is tough, and it ends unpleasantly for just about everyone, whether they are a beef steer going into the slaughterhouse (5 seconds of pain and fear) or a human dying of cancer (5 months of pain and fear).
My place in this world, while alive, is to eat all that is set before me, whether it could walk or whether it grew in the ground. If you want some violence, just come around and try and stop me.
So the question to the "progressive" vegans is: Do you want to fight me over my diet or join forces with me to stop the murder and torture of humans by GW Bush??
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Posted by: Virg on Jan 22, 2007 5:52 PM
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Posted by: fungus on Jan 22, 2007 6:34 PM
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to support the idea that vegetarian diets would be more compatible with a sustainable culture.
Anyhow, we vegetarians eat plenty of other foods besides tofu and sprouts (both of which can be quite yummy if they are cooked correctly.) Many of us have experimented with
creative vegetarian cooking, and have found any number of wonderful, exotic and sexy reciptes. A meat based diet is bland and rather tasteless by comparison, in my experience at any rate.
And it really doesn't matter that Hitler was a vegetarian. He
also twisted Darwin's ideas to his own evil ends, but this says nothing about Darwin's brilliance.
Check vegetarianism out, folks. You might be surprised.
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Posted by: Kelly on Jan 22, 2007 8:08 PM
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Posted by: Matmoros on Jan 23, 2007 2:51 AM
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It's kind of interesting to see another view.
VegetariansAreEvil.com
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» ARe you kidding me?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ARe you kidding me?
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: ARe you kidding me?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ARe you kidding me?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: ARe you kidding me?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» btw... did you even bother to take a look at that link? nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Shey on Jan 23, 2007 3:38 AM
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I've been a vegetarian for twenty-two years and I don't eat either tofu or sprouts. I was, BTW, raised on a diet of meat as the center of every meal. I don't push vegetarianism on anyone, but if I feel that someone is open to hearing it, I try to educate others about the shockingly inhumane methods involved in factory farming, and encourage those who show an interest to pursue free-range meat options, at the very least.
For those not interested in the question of the morality of eating animals raised under conditions that can be equated with torture, there is the issue of the bovine growth hormones you ingest with your steak or burger, the antibiotics so over-used on poultry, because factory farmed chickens and turkeys are raised in such filthy, stressful conditions that disease is rampant, antibiotics that build up in the human system, creating such a high level of antibiotic tolerence that medicine needed to treat a disease or medical condition can be rendered virtually useless.
It's amazing that so few people understand the basics about factory farming. That the water tables in at least two states are dangerously contaminated by fecal matter from pigs, raised in such over-crowded conditions that nature simply cannot handle so much pig shit. Or that factory dairy cows, as well as beef cattle, are fed bovine growth hormones and antibiotics, and live their lives basically tethered to milking machines, in pens so small they can't turn around.
Or that most of your eggs come from hens confined for life in "battery cages" so small they are unable to turn around or stand up fully, where they suffer from open sores from rubbing against the wire, much like bed sores. Thus the need for antibiotics, even in laying hens. Or they will die before the farmers can make a profit. And yes, I eat eggs. I pay twice as much for eggs from a local farm where the hens have a little space to move around. Because I have a very small income, I make the unthinkable sacrifice of eating eggs half as often as in the past, to offset the cost.
I have never known a single vegetarian who wanted to outlaw meat. Only those who want to educate people so they can make informed choices, and possibily join the ever growing movement to create more humane conditions for the animals whose flesh they consume.
Anyone who still wants to eat meat, especially factory farmed meat, after educating themselves about the facts of how that meat makes it to their plates, has every right to do so. But no one has the right to rant against those of us who choose to be vegetarians. We are not trying to take your meat away from you. Most of us are pushing for legislation that will reform the outrageous cruelty and brutality involved in factory farming as it is practiced today, not outlaw your burgers or your coq au vin. People like Mr. Lazarc have no right to pontificate about what it means to be a vegetarian, when they have no idea what they're talking about.
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» throwing rants in glass houses
Posted by: tunejunky
» RE: throwing rants in glass houses
Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: rant disguised as historical discussion
Posted by: godsbedamned
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Posted by: Shelterbay2006 on Jan 23, 2007 5:24 AM
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The only reason you don't hear more about the disease and debilitating effects of a meat and dairy based diet is the strangle hold these industries have on our political system.
Secondly, if one cares for the environment you are deluding yourself by continuing to eat a meat based diet. If you're interested in looking at the facts, read Robbins " Food Revolution."
So, if you care for yourself and you care for the planet, switch to a vegetarian diet, it's not hard. There are terrific new cookbooks out there; for one Madra Jaffrey's "World Vegetarian."
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» That's not the ONLY reason we don't hear about diseases caused by our meat and dairy diets
Posted by: ksfc
» RE: That's not the ONLY reason we don't hear about diseases caused by our meat and dairy diets
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You're right. But you've missed the point
Posted by: ksfc
» RE: You're right. But you've missed the point
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 23, 2007 6:31 AM
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Why is it that a death burger costs .99 and a pound of organic apples costs $3.29??
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» RE: The true cost of meat...
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The true cost of meat...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» I'm just pointing out that there are other options
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: I'm just pointing out that there are other options
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Subsidies are the problem...what is the solution
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: Subsidies are the problem...what is the solution
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Nitpick and ignore the main point
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: Nitpick and ignore the main point
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Subsidies are the problem...what is the solution
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: People need to walk away from the cities and go back to the village
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Out of all my post, that's all you had to comment on?
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Out of all my post, that's all you had to comment on?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: People need to walk away from the cities and go back to the village
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: The true cost of meat...
Posted by: tunejunky
» RE: The true cost of meat...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: tunejunky on Jan 23, 2007 10:50 AM
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» RE: Vegetarianism Is Anthropomorphism
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Vegetarianism Is Anthropomorphism
Posted by: tunejunky
» RE: Vegetarianism Is Anthropomorphism
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Vegetarianism Is Anthropomorphism
Posted by: zoomorph
» then you must not own a mirror.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: then you must not own a mirror.
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: then you must not own a mirror.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: then you must not own a mirror. Speaking of eating....
Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: then you must not own a mirror. Speaking of eating....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Betcha fewer than 5 people reading this actually need to eat to survive for at least, oh, a month
Posted by: ksfc
» RE: Betcha fewer than 5 people reading this actually need to eat to survive for at least, oh, a month
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Vegetarianism Is Anthropomorphism
Posted by: Shey
» RE: Vegetarianism Is Anthropomorphism...for Shey
Posted by: tunejunky
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Posted by: Old Skeptic on Jan 23, 2007 12:17 PM
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Posted by: godsbedamned on Jan 23, 2007 1:11 PM
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I believe terms like 'responsible' or 'humane' slaughtering are oxymorons. C'mon, you're supporting the killing of something so you can eat it, something that's not necessary in the least. The only purpose of this article is make some liberals and progressives feel better about this fundamental contradiction.
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» RE: Self-serving argumentation
Posted by: zoomorph
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Posted by: zoomorph on Jan 23, 2007 3:43 PM
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Seems like the vast amount of posts I have read (for either and any position) seem to belong to people who are fully invested in the majority overload culture of massive and conspicuous consumption, be it food or otherwise. (Read: Western Assimilate-or-Die Culture).
Did any of 'ya stop to think that there are places in the world (yes, even here in your confortable westernized country) where people still NEED to kill to eat? That it is part and parcel of the Culture of the peoples of that area? That it is not wrong, bad, morally reprehensible to eat other creatures?
That some of the above posts stink of self-righteous "west-is-best" assimilationist views disgusts me. You tell these people not to eat, not to feed their children, that it's wrong to try to survive, that it's wrong to practice their traditional culture. The vast amount of pro-veg posts see me reading them thinking "Ah. Just like the Missionaries of times gone past - save the screaming savages from themselves." Not all the pro-veg posts, mind you, there are some very nice ones that have a more live and let live tone to them. The over-the-top ones that infer that omnivorous humans are "de devil!" are the ones that really worry me.
Western civilization and culture are NOT the only ones present in North America or the WORLD for that matter. What right have you to say these cultures are wrong or people within them wrong for following them?
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» RE: Not Your Culture
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not Your Culture
Posted by: zoomorph
» Cultural relativism: wife-beating, gay-bashing cultures deserve respect too?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Cultural relativism: wife-beating, gay-bashing cultures deserve respect too?
Posted by: zoomorph
» Not ANY, but MOST
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Not Your Culture
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Not Your Culture
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: jaya on Jan 23, 2007 3:56 PM
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Lazare goes on to describe the account of the emergence and evolution of Western vegetarianism. This is where he really reveals his cards. He is a classic Orientalist, truly defining "Western culture" (as if that were one simple bloc) against "Eastern culture." His discourse (in the Michel Foucault sense of the word) around vegetarianism (which may or may not accurately reflect Stuart's discourse in his book) defines it as so clearly a Western phenomenon that the "Indians" he refers to aren't "vegetarians" in his mind. After all, if they were, how could he refer to seeing the Indian armies' efficiency as if it were merely on display for the West to take as data and not at all a part of vegetarianism?
"Unfortunately for vegetarianism, however, it was also during the Enlightenment that the ideology's shortcomings grew more obvious. The most difficult had to do with ethics. Vegetarianism is most fundamentally about the importance of not taking life other than under the most extreme circumstances." There's another false opposition: vegetarianism is most fundamentally about what again? No animal ever lives sustainably without killing at least plants.
Personally, I try to make plants and fungus all I let die for my sake. And that's for a multitude of reasons, but is not "fundamentally" about the importance of not taking life. Fundamentally, I just want to strive as best I can to live sustainably, and help all other life do the same. For me it's not about not killing; it's about being efficient, local, natural, and sustainable. It's about creating a balanced cycle of life at a time and in a place in which immoderation all around us has created and is creating imbalance in resources, consumption, and lifestyle, imbalance which is spiralling out of control.
That's what I think many vegetarians might emphasize - including use of the words "personally" and "multitude of reasons" - in defending their position. Vegetarianism is not something monochromatic or unified. As if the Comte de Buffon saying "man 'seems to have acquired a right to sacrifice' animals" was somehow important to some (nonexistent) Western Vegetarian Bloc, let alone the Indians and other vegetarians all over the world, as if, most ridiculously of all "vegetarians were unsure how to respond [to Buffon]" means anything at all!
Overall this was a shit article and I won't even bother with the frayed "conclusion." I've never added to these discussions though I read many of them with interest; I only have such venom now because this is so strange to see come through the usually (mostly) reliable filters that are The Nation and Alternet. I and many of the other posters here, pro- and anti-, have a lot more interesting things to say than Lazare.
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Posted by: TRC on Jan 23, 2007 8:04 PM
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The cruelty of the meat and dairy industry inflicted on the millions of animals we consume is also undeniable (with a search you can find footage of scenes inside some of these plants - if you have the stomach for it (no pun intended)).
It could also be argued that the accepted cruelty toward food animals has an effect of instilling cruelty into our associations with each other.
The vast amount of land used to fed our industrial animals is also stagering.
The human body has the teeth and intestinal lenght most compatible with a plant based diet.
But it is clear humans are omnivorous. This is a survival advantage when plant calories cannot be found.
I think it is becoming more clear with scientific interest on the subject and with time that humans are PRIMARILY vegetarian but probably do not suffer from SMALL amounts of animal comsumption - particularly fish.
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» Yes!
Posted by: ksfc
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Posted by: shelaghley on Jan 24, 2007 5:19 AM
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Are you fucking kidding me? Our meat is not butchered quickly and efficiently. How can you write on the subject without researching slaughterhouses? The facts are disgusting and morally reprehensible, a systematic murder process protected by our government. Just another bullshit theory by a selfish meat eater in denial. Every bite you eat is full of panic and fear hormones that surge through the animal as he senses the murder all around and is then murdered himself. Civilized society? I think not. Nature is cruel, yes, but this is beyond need, wastefull slavery and murder of creatures because they are not human. Who says they are here for our use? The fucking bible? What idiot still believes that shit?
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Posted by: mickeyz. on Jan 24, 2007 9:04 AM
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Posted by: Cathyblj on Jan 24, 2007 1:02 PM
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And why is it "speciesism" to be able to eat a turkey, but to find eating a primate repulsive?
I appreciate the poster who said he raises livestock in a responsible manner. This is healthy for the environment, the animals, and the people who eat them. But most commercial farms are not like this. Health and welfare of animals is not important to them, and all they care about is maximizing profits. So they load antibiotics and all kinds of waste into these animals.
People have good reason to be concerned, and I don't think Lazare should be assuming they are snobs, while he is condescending toward them.
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» And how many...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» You know, that gives me an idea to make millions...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: tunejunky on Jan 25, 2007 8:58 AM
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i want to firstly acknowledge the fact that people are vegetarian/vegan by choice. and for the vast majority of those it is a MORAL decision. to which far more thought has gone into than the average person who just consumes food.
the point i'm about to make may seem offensive at first blush. i do not mean it to be as i understand and respect that for most vegetarians the diet is the first and most important step to being kinder to our planet.
my issue has more to do with ORTHODOXY and DOCTRINE. and that honestly, i'm the kind of guy who doesn't respond well to people speaking from a place of moral certainty and superiority. the only thing i'm certain of is the uncertain and that we will all die sooner or later.
it has been my experience that the more restrictive the diet, the more dogmatic the approach.
is there a chance that some of the smugness and self-congratulatory superiority that have followed this article are derived from the fact that in our society vegetarianism is basically a subculture?
and please, if you do not recognize it, that was a rhetorical question. do not flame me for posing it.
And YES (emphatically), we as a society need to think about many of the issues implicit in the conversion to vegetarianism that many of you make.
and while i was more than a bit snarky and i did my share of poking in the ant's nest - there was no need or purpose to the PERSONAL attacks some of you made.
while you may congratulate yourselves on what you might rightfully deem a moral choice, please recognize that proselytizing your decision is no more welcome than a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon on your doorstep.
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» Possibly because the more restrictive the diet, the better thought out it has been?
Posted by: ksfc
» it has been my experience that the more restrictive the diet, the more dogmatic the approach.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Closed minds are terrible things.
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: jowsley on Jan 25, 2007 1:35 PM
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I'm 32 years old and up until five years ago used to be perpetually annoyed by vegetarians, who seemed to be avoiding a particular reality in that humans have enjoyed and always eaten meat.
But I became a paramedic, in Chicago, in the year 2001. I tell people that I became a vegetarian after working for a few years as a paramedic, but not for the reasons that people may suspect. The reason--and it has nothing to do with associating the "grossness" of people flesh to animals--is that after a short period of time I was able to see how easy it is to become desensitized to something particularly awful. Well, it's hard to explain as merely that, because in order to perform this job you also have to develop a peculiar mindset where somebody's tragedy really isn't much of a tragedy at all. After the jolt of the first few gunshots to the head (not always overly bloody) and the gaspings of breath of elderly CHF sufferers, you stop thinking about the patient in the way one normally would and you completely detach yourself from an empathetic and emotional attachment. This, partly out of necessity, is what results in gross-out humor and other general disgusting talk--even in the midst of a call. I read an article somewhere a few years back where the author claimed that, in order to tolerate poverty, one created the illusion of separation between oneself and other people. I think this is an apt comparison to the health field, where one fosters this illusion merely in order to perform the functions of the job. But this is, possibly, a necessary illusion, whereas killing animals is not.
I just saw how easy this mindset was to develop. And one day it just occurred to me in a flash -- is this what we do to animals? I have no idea why I made the connection but I stopped eating meat about a week later. There are about 2 other vegeterian paramedics in all of Chicago, unfortunately...
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» Interesting... I wonder...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: mistery509 on Jan 25, 2007 6:53 PM
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THOU SHALL NOT KILL
Does that mean you should not kill birds, fish, snakes, ants, or does it mean you should only kill rats, dogs, horses and pigs.
Does it mean you can kill and eat flesh? Can it be human flesh, cat flesh or only dog flesh?
Has anyone got an answer to this?
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» No answer, but...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: wordster on Jan 27, 2007 5:16 AM
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"I love eating meat. My justification for this is pretty simple. It friggin' tastes good."
That's not a _justification_. If it were correct, then you could legitimately say, "I love eating babies. It friggin' tastes good." But of course, we all know taste does not _justify_ eating babies.
About your other point that vegans are the ones going around announcing their views. Meat-eating is a moral issue. It is not like a food choice where you prefer salt and I prefer no salt. Like other moral issues, e.g., killing, stealing, capital punishment, abortion, polluting the environment -- meat-eating is not simply a matter of taste or opinion.
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» RE: abortion, huh?
Posted by: hymalaia
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Posted by: cwkoltak on Jan 27, 2007 11:25 AM
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It is a sad irony that the anthropocentric impulse has to come attached with the need to throw our weight around. That the power of our "domain over the earth" (actually a pretty funny thing to say; like imagining the earth as the center of the universe) cannot be handled as a gift, with grace and gratitude (and alliteration?), instead of as a pillaging. "Yeah, that's right, it's our house now, and we can eat whatever we want and destroy whatever we want, and build whatever we want" (...except for unique forms of life: except for ecological harmony; except for ourselves, whom, despite having mapped the entire anatomy of our bodies or diagraming the biochemical components of our nervous systems, we barely phathom and cannot control. My sister complains about her weight and can't keep her hands out of the cookie jar. Somebody somewhere wants to blow you up, or at least make you believe that somebody does. That's madness!) I say ironic because we are the only creatures on the planet capable of compassion and restraint. Sure, a dog can pull a drowning child out of the pool, that's neat, but a dog can't decide to refrain from purchasing a certain brand of sneakers because the children making them are basically slaves to a capatalist regime without remorse. Frankly, most people don't, but humans can choose to protect a person they've never met, at least on occasion, as opposed to destroy or exploit that life. People can develop principals that govern their behaviors, beasts cannot. And yet, given this capacity for abstract thought and reason, the ability to see how my actions are doing someone or something else harm, and how in the end this actually brings bad things to myself or my descendants, we continue to pollute, pave, pillage (alliterate?)
I propose no real answers (except, of course the obvous; that we force everyone to convert to buddhism the way they forced native americans to convert to christianity), I simply want to comment that those with the arrogant sense of human entitlement over the wealth of our planet are fooling themselves. Deceiving themselves, and unfortunately, unltimately denying themselves. I thought it was funny, I read a comment that pointed out the fact that only humans have the capacity to save the environment, and I wondered, "what does this person think we need to save the environment from?"
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Posted by: marykderr on Jan 27, 2007 4:17 PM
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I have a whole shelfload of veg cookbooks and recipes featuring cuisines from all over the world, from Jamaican to Polish...One can get a taste of what is possible by looking up different ethnic cusines and cookbooks at www.vrg.org, the website of the Vegetarian Resource Group...Veg fare allows for many rich possibilities of culinary hedonism.
Lazare also proclaims vegetarianism to be inherently "antihumanist" and "authoritarian" (even digging up the old "Hitler-was-veg" myth to prove his point.) There's another way to look at it, though. No, we can't live without eating other creatures, but we can survive and thrive without lethally imposing our wills on animals, with whom we share much more than sometimes we like to acknowledge. And that's not necessarily in all respects a bad thing--recognizing human kinship with animals can foster greater compassion towards not only them but other human beings.
Vegetarianism is a most powerful, environmentally beneficial way to limit the harm we cause, and when undertaken in a humble, compassionate spirit it can bring out the mindfulness and compassion possible in human beings.
Marycia
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Posted by: mighty85 on Jan 29, 2007 12:38 PM
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Mr. Lazare, on the other hand, pretends like the "tastes good" claim is actually valid argument, and then obscures it with a couple paragraphs of pretentious bullshit about sovereignty and scarcity.
First, he says that maybe the issue should be quality not quantity, as though if meat tasted better that would somehow take care of the ethical questions. By the same "logic" cannibalism is totally justifiable, as long as the people are delicious.
But that's ridiculous, so I'm assuming that's why he starts babbling incoherently about human sovereignty in the next paragraph. Lazare complains that the author's "arguing for a balance between animal welfare, ecology and human self-interest" (which sounds fine to me) doesn't work because sovereignty can't be fragmented or reduced. Ok... why not? Well, he doesn't really explain why not (or really any of his claims about sovereignty or even what sovereignty means in this context.) It sounds a lot like he's saying that if we don't eat meat in order to protect the environment then we give up our supremacy and that means giving up our responsibility to protect the environment. But that makes no sense. Perhaps, he should have given more time to this than a "rather cursory" one paragraph explanation.
Then he starts talking about the abundance of food in the United States and the world's population explosion. By this point I'm not really surprised that he ignores the estimated 25,000 people that DIE EVERY DAY FROM STARVATION or the 852 million people who are chronically malnourished. Now you can argue whether or not reducing meat consumption will help alleviate that problem, but I'd find it hard to argue that those numbers represent the end of scarcity.
So to summarize his arguments for eating meat: it tastes good, something about sovereignty, and it represents a victory of abundance of food in a world where tens of thousands of people die every day of starvation. What, does Lazare have a bet with Christopher Hitchens over who can write the dumbest article for The Nation?
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Posted by: familyfarm on Jan 30, 2007 11:56 AM
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» RE: PETA propagandists.
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: kevcon on Jan 30, 2007 4:20 PM
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Meat-eater's State of "The Nation"
Click Name for Bio of Mickey Z
Wednesday, 24 January 2007
by Mickey Z.
The (so-called) alternative press rarely "gets" vegetarianism, animal rights, and related issues. Case in point: The February 5, 2007 issue of The Nation featured a book review by Daniel Lazare called "My Beef With Vegetarianism." The book in question was 'The Bloodless Revolution' by Tristram Stuart (full disclosure: I have not read Stuart's book).
The "review" reads like a personal vendetta against those who choose a plant-based diet as Lazare dedicates as much space to his own opinions as those of author Stuart. "My Beef With Vegetarianism" also includes a wide range of uninformed assertions. For Lazare, death at a slaughterhouse involves merely "dispatching" the animal "quickly and efficiently" for the "good utilitarian purpose of feeding the hungry." He also engages in Fox News-level mind games with questions like: "If life is the highest value and taking it is never, ever permissible, then what are we to do in the case of a poisonous snake that is about to strike a sleeping infant?"
I'm wondering: Did a vegetarian spokesperson decree that taking a life is never permissible? Plus, we don't need imaginary examples like snakes and infants. The animals being slaughtered on a massive scale are not threatening anyone or anything, they do not die "quickly and efficiently," and the hungry are not being fed as a result of their grisly deaths.
Lazare dusts off another line of "reasoning" one might expect from a 12-year-old: "Cruel as it is to kill an ox or a pig, nature is even crueler. A tiger or wolf does not knock its prey senseless with a single blow to the forehead and then painlessly slit its jugular; rather, it tears it to pieces with its teeth." Lazare not only embarrasses himself with an absurd comparison, he yet again diminishes the horror and cruelty of the slaughter industry.
The ham-fisted Lazare forges on with his transparent agenda. Leonardo da Vinci didn't speak out against cruelty to animals, he "ranted" against it. Descartes' alleged "fruit-and-vegetable diet" may have contributed to his death at the relatively young age of 54. Vegetarianism's "dramatic resurgence in recent years" is thanks to "pierced and tattooed twentysomethings." Lazare erroneously‹yet predictably‹reports that Adolf Hitler was a "dedicated vegetarian," and goes on to enlighten his readers about what "most likely" drew Nazi dictator to vegetarianism: "its antihumanist and authoritarian elements." As if this were documented fact, no further elucidation is provided.
Speaking of ill-informed assumptions piled atop clumsy inaccuracies, Lazare also states: "More people are living better and eating more richly than anyone in the 1700s would have thought possible." Tell that to the one billion who live on less than one dollar a day and, by the way, how exactly do we know what "anyone in the 1700s" thought possible in this realm? Regardless, Lazare declares that scarcity "no longer serves as an argument for vegetarianism, and neither, for that matter, does health." For him, to consume animal flesh is to celebrate "humanity's ongoing struggle to create abundance out of scarcity." To do otherwise would be to wallow in "the silly defeatism of a diet of tofu and sprouts."
Ultimately, Lazare's "review" is nothing new and opinions similar to his are available widely...via the corporate media. On the other hand, an effectively functioning alternative media should be giving voice to opinions and ideas neglected by the mainstream.
Mickey Z. can be found on the Web at http://www.mickeyz.net.
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Posted by: Rshaw on Jan 22, 2007 3:38 AM
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» RE: what the hell
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: what the hell
Posted by: drmflorida
» Famines do not occur in democracies
Posted by: igoeja
» How many democracies...
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» RE: How many democracies...
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» RE: How many democracies...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How many democracies...
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» A couple points
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» The US is a democracy?
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» RE: The US is a democracy?
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» RE: WAR FUNDING
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» RE: Famines do not occur in democracies
Posted by: timebomb734
» China vs India
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» RE: China vs India
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» FreeMarkets and Democracies
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» RE: FreeMarkets and Democracies
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» RE: Famines do not occur in democracies SELF SUFFICIENCY
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Posted by: socialpsych on Jan 22, 2007 3:47 AM
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You are walking along the margins of a forest and find some ripe wild raspberries. Would you eat some?
On another occassion, you are walking along a road and see a dead deer, freshly killed by a passing truck. Would you eat some?
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» RE: On Human Nature
Posted by: mjabele
» I don't think I'll give the right answers, either
Posted by: Beck
» RE: I don't think I'll give the right answers, either
Posted by: homesickalien
» Eat it.
Posted by: ssmit355
» Eat roadkill -- ABSOLUTELY !!! I often do ....
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» RE: eat roadkill -- ABSOLUTELY !!! I often do ....
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: On Human Nature
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» RE: On Human Nature
Posted by: blitzmesser
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 22, 2007 3:53 AM
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Our obsession with meat is another thing (eg: http://www.slate.com/id/2157840/?GT1=9010).
I agree that some of it is a Red State thing, like big gas-guzzling trucks: It's our right as Americans to do whatever the hell we want, because we're #1.
Another thing I noticed is that old people love meat. Go to your local supermarket and see who's mulling around the meat section...So the way I figure, we just have to wait for all the old people to die off, and our per-capita meat consumption will go down.
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» Do you know the reason?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Do you know the reason?
Posted by: blitzmesser
» Fast food ads: Being a 'real man' means eating lots of beef, being a slob
Posted by: godsbedamned
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Posted by: goldfishlaugh on Jan 22, 2007 3:56 AM
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And of all the vegetarians I've known (many of them borderline alcoholics), food scarcity has never been their motivation, and health has only been a secondary factor, after the concerns of the cruel and environmentally destructive conditions of the modern meat industry which views feeling and often-intelligent creatures as nothing more than objects to be used for profit.
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» RE: Talk to some real vegetarians
Posted by: emh@post.com
» modern meat
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: modern meat
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: modern meat
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: modern meat
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» RE: modern meat
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: modern meat
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: modern meat
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: modern meat
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» See, that is part of the problem...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: modern meat
Posted by: godsbedamned
» RE: Talk to some real vegetarians
Posted by: Blue Heron
» RE: Talk to some real vegetarians
Posted by: cottontail
» Thanks for pointing out the author's stupidity and ignorance
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: bbfmail on Jan 22, 2007 4:26 AM
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Seems like this book is being reviewed by an obvious lover of meat. I suggest he go to PETA for some information on how kindly the animals are killed during the "factory" farming process.
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» RE: VEGETARIAN
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: VEGETARIAN
Posted by: homesickalien
» Yep, you're right
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Yep, you're right
Posted by: homesickalien
» RE: Yep, you're right
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Yep, you're right what culture?
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: Yep, you're right what culture?
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa
» RE: Yep, you're right
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Yep, you're right
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: VEGETARIAN
Posted by: familyfarm
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Posted by: igoeja on Jan 22, 2007 4:34 AM
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My energy consumption is relatively low, as I live in a major city and very selectively use automobiles for transportation. Lately though, I have been reminded that domesticated animals are large contributors to global warming (methane creation) and inefficient protein producers (4 to 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat). Additionally, vegetarianism, and related calorie reduction, are associated with increased longevity. Both have pushed my back to vegetarianism.
Regardless of the history, vegetarianism is a better choice. The legitimate gripe seems to be against meat-eaters.
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Posted by: kww355 on Jan 22, 2007 4:34 AM
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» Sex...
Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Sex...
Posted by: oldmaninhisunderwear
» and Health
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: and Health
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: and Health
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: and Health
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: and Health
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: ewww
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ewww
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: ewww
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ewww
Posted by: mjabele
» Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Yes, food IS like art for some...
Posted by: zoomorph
» RE: ewww
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» Eating Tofurkey/Soyriso is just a Carnivor in Denial
Posted by: DanielT28
» RE: ating Tofurkey/Soyriso is just a Carnivor in Denial
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ating Tofurkey/Soyriso is just a Carnivor in Denial
Posted by: DanielT28
» RE: ating Tofurkey/Soyriso is just a Carnivor in Denial
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ating Tofurkey/Soyriso is just a Carnivor in Denial
Posted by: DanielT28
» RE: ating Tofurkey/Soyriso is just a Carnivor in Denial
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: ewww
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» Uh, because vegetarian food
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Jan 22, 2007 4:40 AM
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I'm no scientist, but generally, if something appeals to taste, touch or smell, it seems to me that there are probably solid biological reasons. For the most part, the human body indicates quite effectively what it wants or needs to consume. Some exceptions might include "poisons" such as alcohol or hot peppers, but again, our bodies generally tell us when we've exceeded the benefits of a healthy dose (Okay, maybe alcohol wasn't the best example...).
I have no problem with Vegetarians, per se, but the overall logic gets pretty convoluted, in my view. I'll often ask someone who identifies themselves as such if they make that choice for health or morality reasons. If it's the former, fair enough I suppose (until recently, the "backstory" of meat has been pretty ugly for several generations), if it's the latter they'd better be ready for a healthy debate. Hey, they're the ones going around announcing their position! As for Vegans, a former Vegan friend of mine summed it up pretty well when she stated that Veganism is just a way for people to indulge in an eating disorder & simultaneously pat themselves on the back! By their logic, one might as well stop breathing...
In the end, none of these positions (my own included) is really perfect. Both a vegetable based diet & one including meat have their own flaws & benefits. I would recommend the excellent Omnivore's Dilemma for it's take on these arguments.
Now I need some breakfast...
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» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: fallout1
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: fallout1
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: My Friend Ain't No Idiot...
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: My Friend Ain't No Idiot...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: My Friend Ain't No Idiot...
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: My Friend Ain't No Idiot...
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: My Friend Ain't No Idiot...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: drmflorida
» Regarding Moral Satisfaction Vs. Oral Satisfaction
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: egarding Moral Satisfaction Vs. Oral Satisfaction
Posted by: misterpunch
» RE: egarding Moral Satisfaction Vs. Oral Satisfaction
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: egarding Moral Satisfaction Vs. Oral Satisfaction
Posted by: misterpunch
» "Okay, Let's Try This Again (& Again & Again & Again.....)"
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: You have a point.
Posted by: misterpunch
» Holy Crap! You Have One Too. "We Are Not So Different, You & I..."
Posted by: grumble-bum
» "Power of Poo' -- and you can't eat grass...
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» Will You Marry Me?
Posted by: grumble-bum
» Yes -- if you own a farm !
Posted by: alaskagrrl
» No, I do not, I'm afraid...
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: candara
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» A Flavorless Existance Is Not Worth Living.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» RE: I'm Still Hungry...
Posted by: mcostas
» Please Reprogram Me.
Posted by: grumble-bum
» Dogs are fine with alittle garlic... that's not why I don't eat them (often)
Posted by: alaskagrrl
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Posted by: colinmeister on Jan 22, 2007 4:49 AM
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» Tolerance?
Posted by: igoeja
» RE: Tolerance?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Tolerance?
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: A debate without end... tolerance
Posted by: Aimee
» Another Amy who doesn't eat carcass...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: A debate without end... tolerance
Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: A debate without end... tolerance
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: It is not simply a matter of choice
Posted by: wordster
» RE: A debate without end...
Posted by: DanielT28
» RE: A debate without end...
Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: A debate without end...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: A debate without end...
Posted by: Deanna
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Posted by: cmaciain on Jan 22, 2007 5:17 AM
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» RE: This article does not address...
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: sv on Jan 22, 2007 5:40 AM
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Berry on Hitler
Furthermore, I find it unfortunate Mr. Lazarre is so misinformed and prejudiced as to believe that vegetarians don't drink alcohol. Such ill-informed stereotyping, also evident in other parts of his article, really don't help any serious discussion on diet, lifestyle, and health.
There are a multitude of reasons to eschew meat, from the health-based to the spiritual. The most factual and proven are the incredibly deleterious affects factory farming of animals is having on our air, our soil, and our water. US factory farming is also incredibly energy-intensive, inherently barbaric, and intolerably wasteful. Meat and dairy prices in the US are unnaturally low due to government subsidies, and I, for one, am tired of paying for someone else to contribute to environmental destruction and humongous meat-diet-related health bills. Let carnivores pay the true cost, if they chose to consume such.
As a vegetarian for 26 years (last six as a vegan), I find Mr. Lazarre's attitude, unfortunately, altogether too common among people who feel they must somehow justify their consumption of dead animal body pieces by attacking those who choose not to do the same.
Mr. Lazarre would be well-served to better research the topic of vegetarianism before spreading unfounded myths as to who we are, and who we are not.
Mark
blogsite soulveggie
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» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: sv
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» actually, there are non-industry studies on the benefits of meat
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: Jayzer
» CORRECTED HITLER NOT A VEG LINK
Posted by: sv
» RE: CORRECTED HITLER NOT A VEG LINK
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: The Veg Myth About Hitler
Posted by: Kelly
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lady X on Jan 22, 2007 5:44 AM
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position on eating meat by the end of the piece.
It is amazing that vegetarianism vs meat eating has such a long and specific history.
I have been a Vegetarian since I was 15. My family are big meat eaters- usually barely cooked beef swimming in blood.
At lunch when I was 8, my grandfather brought a huge piece
of meat swimming in blood to the table- like human sacrfice.
I remember asking, "Do I have to eat this?"
I feel that meant eating, and the Old Testment notion that animals are less evolved and important than man is fascist.I think the Old Testament is fascist. Did God REALLY tell
people to eat meat? I mean, come ON.
To intentionally cause another sentient being to suffer,
when man can create many aware options about diet and
nutrition is fascist. If people ate each other it would be
cannabalism. Why is it different to eat an animal, especially
since they cannot defend themselves.
If people spent a week at a slaughter house, I bet there would be a pretty high number of converts to vegetrainsim.
The arguement that animals eat other animals is simply pathetic. Animals are driven by survival instincts in wild environments.
Man can make choices about what we eat.
We can choose not to raise animals who are born to suffer
so man can consume. Why is our identity so tied up in
subverting other species, or those perceived as weaker than we are ?
There are huge amounts of info on how to combine food groups so that people get enough, protein, minerals and
vitamins without killing animals to get food.
I believe people have to make their own choices. I also believe most people who eat meat have never really thought
about the process from force raising animals to the slaughtering of animals to when they are consumed as "food".
There was a film that came out recently called FAST FOOD NATION that many Vegetarians feel should be required viewing for everyone.
The next time you order a steak, hamburger or pork chops-
take a moment to reflect on where it came from and what
the animal might have been going through to die to become
your dinner or lunch.
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» RE: The Vegetarian Through History
Posted by: babs
» RE: The Vegetarian Through History
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: marxalot on Jan 22, 2007 5:45 AM
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You kill the snake. But take care not to feel gratified or righteous in doing so. Snakes do what snakes do.
We should try to maintain a sense of compassion for all living things, who along with ourselves must exist in an imperfect world and eventually suffer the pain of death. As a guiding principle that alone should lead you to consume less animal flesh.
And don't leave your baby out by the woodpile where the rattlers hang out.
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» RE: Kill the snake, but ...
Posted by: Lady X
» RE: Kill the snake, but ...
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Kill the snake, but ...
Posted by: Lady X
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Posted by: kwalls on Jan 22, 2007 5:49 AM
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» RE: The coming conflict of meat vs. fuel
Posted by: colinmeister
» RE: The coming conflict of meat vs. fuel
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: The coming conflict of meat vs. fuel
Posted by: colinmeister
» that's just the BS they'd like us to believe
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: that's just the BS they'd like us to believe
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» I haven't yet but
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: I haven't yet but
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» you probably have but if you haven't...
Posted by: AdamG
» It's Not Just Meat vs. Fuel! It's Food vs Fuel! We Subsidize Ethanol At The Grocery Store!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: cielo on Jan 22, 2007 5:59 AM
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Humans, as Harvey Diamond explains, are not natural carnivores:
"A carnivore's teeth are long sharp and pointed - all of them! We have molars for crushing and grinding. A carnivore's jaws move up and down only, for tearing and biting. Ours can move from side to side for grinding. A carnivore's saliva is acid and geared to the digestion of animal protein; it lacks ptyalin, a chemical that digests starches. Our saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin for the digestion of starch. A carnivore's stomach is a simple, round sack that secretes ten times more hydrochloric acid than that of a non-carnivore. Our stomachs are oblong in shape, complicated in structure, and convoluted with a duodenum.
A carnivore's intestines are three times the length of its trunk, designed for rapid expulsion of animal proteins, which quickly rot. Our intestines are twelve times the length of our trunks and designed to keep food in them until all nutrients are extracted. The liver of a carnivore is capable of eliminating ten to fifteen times more uric acid than the liver of a non-carnivore. Our livers have the capacity to eliminate only a small amount of uric acid. Uric acid is an extremely dangerous toxic substance that can wreak havoc in your body. All meat consumption releases large quantities of uric acid into the system. Unlike most carnivores and omnivores, humans do not have the enzyme uricase to break down uric acid.
A carnivore does not sweat through the skin and has no pores. We do sweat through the skin and have pores. A carnivore's urine is acid. Ours is alkaline. A carnivore's tongue is rough, ours is smooth. Our hands are perfectly designed for plucking fruit from a tree, not for tearing the guts out of the carcass of a dead animal as are a carnivore's claws."
quoted article
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» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: helgerry
» RE: Yes and , Vegetarians taste better!..
Posted by: Johnny Hempseed
» RE: Yes and , Vegetarians taste better!..
Posted by: plarue
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: babs
» human physiology isn't the only consideration
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: Humans not Carnivores... OMNIVORES
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Humans not Carnivores... OMNIVORES
Posted by: Kelly
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: hartsmart
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: adventuregrrl
» RE: Humans are not Natural Carnivores...
Posted by: l_m_n
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Posted by: henderson on Jan 22, 2007 6:15 AM
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Isn’t there a theme of suffering and death and “moral superiority” running through this debate? What if “death” isn’t the “end”? What if all of this is only an illusion? What if Earth is only a playground, a place to learn “lessons” for EVERYTHING, animals included.
(“Channeled” material by Emmanuel)
The gifts I wish to give you are my deepest love, the safety of truth, the wisdom of the universe and the reality of God.
With these four things, nothing will deter you. You will follow your hearts swiftly to your destination, which is Home.
I know there is confusion and doubt and what appears to be chaos. Can you see that beneath these surface shadows there is eternal Light? This earth plane is neither the beginning nor the end of your existence. It is simply a step, a schoolroom.
My friends, let me impress upon you how solidly you are planted in eternity, how brilliantly you can shine in your own physical world, how possible it all is, how beautifully the Plan is designed.
In God’s Plan no soul is alone, no soul is ever lost.
You have become caught in the illusion that your identity rests with your capacity to struggle. It does not.
Your true identity is awaiting you beyond effort.
The key to remembering is to remind the self not to be afraid of anything, anywhere, anytime, ever.
Illusion cannot destroy reality. Can a shadow on the wall hurt you?
Death cannot kill You. Pain cannot hurt You. Disease cannot make You ill. Years cannot age You. Fear cannot touch You.
Welcome Home.
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» RE: Another viewpoint...
Posted by: homesickalien
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Posted by: wordster on Jan 22, 2007 6:17 AM
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He said;
"If life is the highest value and taking it is never, ever permissible, then what are we to do in the case of a poisonous snake that is about to strike a sleeping infant?"
Thats a complete misrepresentation. No one says it is "never, ever permissable" to take a life. I doubt anyone thinks that acting in self-defense is wrong.
And the characterization that we eat only sprouts and tofu is nonsense. I haven't had either in years. The vegan diet is delicious and unlimited.
As for the notion that humans are meant to be meat-eaters. View this short and hilarious video by Bizarro cartoonist Dan Piraro.
http://www.bizarro.com/videos/mov/VeganVideoWeb.mov
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» RE: Nonsense Review
Posted by: Jayzer
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jan 22, 2007 6:26 AM
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Anyone who would think what and how we eat in any form to be inherently frivolous (and who are these "many people", anyway???) obviously hasn't paid much attention to the state of the world these days or over time.
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Posted by: wordster on Jan 22, 2007 6:46 AM
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But it is not simply a dietary choice, like I prefer chocolate ice-cream and you prefer vanilla or I like salt and you choose to go salt-free.
Some issues are moral issues and some are not. You would not say that someone should be tolerant if you enjoy killing, robbing, or cheating people or polluting the air that others breathe. Those are moral issues that are wrong.
Capital punishment, abortion, destroying the environment, and killing animals are also moral issues. Moral issues are usually issues that affect or hurt others. If you think morality is just a matter of opinion or taste or choice then you're saying that the rightness or wrongness of robbing or killing or polluting is just a matter of opinion or choice. Clearly, this is not true.
wordster
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» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: Astrodave
» RE: It's a moral issue --Not simply a choice
Posted by: Kelly
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 22, 2007 6:58 AM
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However, as someone who has actually participated in the production of meat animals, let me say that some of the horrors I have witnessed have really changed my views about eating meat. I have also seen what the agri-business takeover of meat production has done to my area. I have minimized meat in my diet, but am planning to eliminate it completely.
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» Corporate hog production destroying watersheds across the USA
Posted by: lessbread
» RE: as a farmer....
Posted by: Shey
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Posted by: badkitty68 on Jan 22, 2007 7:20 AM
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The rest of it is the usual self-serving ramblings of the type of person who deeply resents vegetarians and vegans because they, unlike hinself, have the strength and backbone to attempt to live their ethics as best they can.
Instead of looking to nature as a role model/excuse for barbaraism and cruelty, try using the thing that you humanists are always claiming makes you so "special" - your ability to reason - and select the high road of compassion and doing no harm, BECAUSE YOU CAN. It is a position of strength, not weakness and defeatism.
Indeed, it is the author and his ilk are the true defeatists, overwhelmed by the striving for a true ethical way of being in the world, and basically given up in a angry flurry of self-justification.
And by the way, Hitler WAS NOT a vegetarian. He was a hygiene freak and went on periodic cleansing regimens during which he didn't eat meat, but his favorite dish was Squab, which I believe is pigeon.
This is another example of why I stopped my subscription to "The Nation". It is rife with such psuedo-intellectual, psuedo-progressive blatherings, and I'd rather send my money to Buzzflash, Truthout, and ICH.
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Posted by: Beck on Jan 22, 2007 7:33 AM
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I've also read that many vegetarians are the same blood type, so there is a possibility that some people will find it easy to avoid meat, and others won't. I've known several women who became vegetarian after menopause, a time of life when less iron would be needed, although these women were certain that it was only moral considerations that led to their change in diet. . It is possible that a person's main motive for avoiding meat could be moral, but that their physiology would make it easier than a person with the same moral values but different physiology. The number of vegetarians seems to be increasing, but at the same time, the treatment of animals is getting worse, not better; there seems to be no direct correlation as of yet. If a person becomes a vegetarian out of the legitimate concern over the needless suffering animals face in the way most of them are raised here in the USA, but make no other protest, then little is accomplished except personal peace of mind; important to the person but not the animals that continue to suffer. Market forces obviously matter alot, and this is apparent when you see organic products in most stores now, and even businesses like McDonalds talk of using organic beef in their future. Since America seems to be in no way close to a vegetarian diet, those who are searching out free-range, organice meat are possibly doing more to end cruelty than those avoiding the marketplace entirely.
Lastly, most of us have concerns over the earth and its future at the moment, and we often have a particular area that we focus on, but it is often to the exclusion of other important areas. I know some vegetarians who are concerned about the long-term implications of how meat is raised and avoid it for those reasons, but fly a few times a year on vacations. From what I read about global warming and flying, it seems possible that one very long flight could cancel the climate-protecting effects of months of avoiding meat.
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» RE: Plants probably have awareness, too
Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: Plants probably have awareness, too
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Plants probably have awareness, too
Posted by: candara
» Well well, another defensive meat eater out to find any
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Well well, another defensive meat eater out to find any
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Think!
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 22, 2007 7:36 AM
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» RE: If you are vegetarian or vegan, sign below with how long you've been veg
Posted by: Catwoman
» RE: If you are vegetarian or vegan, sign below with how long you've been veg
Posted by: bichomau
» RE: If you are vegetarian or vegan, sign below with how long you've been veg
Posted by: justAnEgg
» This sounds like an AA meeting
Posted by: AdamG
» I live with a recovering addict. That is a DISGUSTING comparison.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» whatfuckingever
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: whatfuckingever
Posted by: joshuawelch
» Laugh at yourself? You seem to only want to laugh at others.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» So?
Posted by: l_m_n
» You're awful defensive and critical Adam
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: You're awful defensive and critical Adam
Posted by: carcinoid112
» There I go again...
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» I plead guilty, as charged
Posted by: AdamG
» Oh, I get it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Adam, Adam
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Adam, Adam
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Adam, Adam
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 22, 2007 7:42 AM
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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
From Freewill by Rush
Suit yourself. Isn't that the purpose of a representative democratic republic?
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Jan 22, 2007 8:11 AM
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» RE: This guy sounds just like an addict...
Posted by: zoomorph
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Posted by: peaceyogi on Jan 22, 2007 8:28 AM
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» Oil your food.
Posted by: ssmit355
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Posted by: jontv on Jan 22, 2007 8:30 AM
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My point is that vegetarianism is a choice, but for many, eating meat is not. It's just what they do. It is the norm out here in the heartland. It never occurs to most people that producing and eating large quantities of meat could be a problem for our society.
I don't think we should try to make eating meat illegal. I think people should be fully informed so they can make the choice for themselves. We are nowhere near that point, however. Most people have no idea how terrible the meat industry is for the environment, how many precious resources it wastes, how inhumanely animals are treated. People don't know, and many don't want to know. Ignorance is not the basis for responsible choices.
I think those of us with concerns about meat should continue to try to raise the level of information in the general populace. We should continue to call for more humane treatment of food animals. Unfortunately, the food we eat is such a personal thing that it's hard to talk about without people taking personal offense. But rather than getting on our high horses, we need to get better about explaining things in a non-threatening way. We need to understand that the status quo is hard to change, the forces that drive the over-consumption of meat are strong, and that fully informing people about meat is going to be a long process.
If people are fully informed and the production of meat made more local, sustainable, and humane, then I would not have a problem with other people eating meat. It would be wrong for me to choose to eat meat, knowing what I know and believing what I believe, but I can respect other choices if they are informed and responsible.
I'm not too impressed with this article, however....
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» RE: Let's make it a good choice
Posted by: Ivan_K
» Education
Posted by: Kelly
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Posted by: Raj on Jan 22, 2007 8:47 AM
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“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.” Albert Einstein
More quotes:
here
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Posted by: puchanus on Jan 22, 2007 8:53 AM
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If I was to be stranded out in the wilderness I might sing a different tune. Given my present circumstances, I will choose tofu over ham because then my diet is in synch with my ethics.....
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Posted by: babs on Jan 22, 2007 8:53 AM
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An interesting review/article until the last idiotic sentence. Vegetarians are defeatist, and they eat only tofu and sprouts? I don't think so.
The author made no attempt to separate the two distinct types of vegetarians - vegans (no flesh or animal products) and ovo-lactarians (no flesh, but they eat eggs and milk products). Any discussion of this type of lifestyle must explain the difference. As well, most veggies I know drink beer - this idea that they wear self awarded halos is nonsense. They sin just like the rest of us - but they only kill carrots for fun.
Also, there are many reasons for adopting a no-flesh diet and they run the gamut from moral and health concerns, to philosophic arguments.
I eat meat (and that includes fish) only occasionally and yes, my diet includes soy, lots of vegetables and fruits, and a minimum of dairy. It's no secret that cancers of the bowel are virtually non existent in cultures that eschew meat - India being a great example.
So does the author's last sentence mean that while tofu eaters are silly defeatists, meat eaters are smart and victorious? What a load of lard! It's this kind of stupidity and ignorance that keeps Mickey Ds in business and casts a jaundiced eye on anyone who doesn't pack at least 500 grams of fat onto their creaking frames while chowing down on chicken-fried steak (who the hell thought of that one anyway?).
But these are uber-partisan days so when you grow tired of inventing Islamo-fascist enemies, why not turn to criticizing healthy diets? And ain't North America just a beacon for wise eating - LOL - and lots of it, with gravy please.
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» Nice rant!!
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Nice rant!!
Posted by: babs
» Let's see...India? Chicken Fried Steak??
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Back to the Earth
Posted by: ssmit355
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Jan 22, 2007 8:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get off your flesh-eating high horse, pal.
This article was very interesting to me until its author started giving his personal opinion and diverged from discussion of the book's strengths and weaknesses. His "beef" with vegetarianism seems more spured by guilt and irritation that we vegs have the right idea after all.
But additionally, I am not interested in seeing any more articles about vegetarianism on Alternet because all you guys do is make fun of us and create ridiculous straw man arguments, such as the snake and the baby, as though that proves anything. Because it doesn't. Killing in defense when attacked is nothing like killing just for your pleasure of eating. Moron. But, what else could I expect from a meat-eater, anyway?
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» Of course they won't. They are becoming more status-quo all the time.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Will Alternet ever run a pro-veg article?
Posted by: Jan Frel
» RE: Will Alternet ever run a pro-veg article?
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: solrev on Jan 22, 2007 9:31 AM
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» How arrogant and insipid. nm
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: solrev
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Also...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Also...
Posted by: Astrodave
» You'll hear me say this quite often...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: How arrogant and insipid. nm not yet
Posted by: drmflorida
» Re: Meat-eating Westerners and starvation in the developing world
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: e: Meat-eating Westerners and starvation in the developing world
Posted by: solrev
» Read Jared Diamonds' 'Collapse' if you haven't already
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: at when your hungrey
Posted by: Mags
» RE: at when your hungrey
Posted by: solrev
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AdamG on Jan 22, 2007 9:47 AM
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As for the eat meat or not eat meat I'd like to weigh in with my two cents for what it's worth.
First off, I'll put it out there that I raise livestock for food and fiber(sheep, goats, and poultry). I am fully aware of the evils of the modern meat industry. How I raise and market animals has nothing in common with the industrial model. They are all pastured, live what I think seem to be fulfilling lives, and when harvested are done so as quickly and humanely as possible. The meat is then sold locally directly to the consumer. Granted, animals raised this way are not in the majority of livestock but it is seemingly increasing.
My beef with the vegetarian/vegan thing is how many of it's adherents act like they are some how morally superior or that even though I am acting in a way that I feel is responsible that I am still doing something inherently bad. I don't buy the argument that it's livestocks fault for global warming or that people are starving or an number off social and environmental ills that plague our world. It is HUMANS fault for all of this. Yes, I agree that ruminants shouldn't be forced fed tons of grain but in someways it may be good that they are. If they weren't, and the food was available for humans, can you imagine how many humans there would be? Besides, people by and large are starving because of economics, not because of lack of food.
As for the environmental thing, I believe that livestock can be raised in a way that helps conserve and enhance the environment. Rather then grow millions of acres of soy and corn to force feed cows in concentration camps, that land could be planted to grassland, probably produce as much meat, and sequester carbon in the form of increased organic matter. Not saying that no grains should be grown but annual grain/pulse monocultures are one of the most destructive innovations humanities' ever developed. Also many climates (such as the one I live in) are brittle (arid) and so grains and many traditional vegetable protein sources are not very appropriate. In such climates, grasslands are a more appropriate land use. Problem is, at least for us, we can't eat grass but animals can so it seems a natural fit for people to live in these sort of climates to farm/ranch animals. Even the native people where I'm from lived off salmon, acorns, and other animals.
This issue isn't as black and white as meat bad, veggies good or vice versa. Like anything in this world, there are many factors at play and only through observation, experience, and clear intention will we each come to our own conclusions as to what is best for us as individuals. Hopefully, eventually we can all come together, whatever our personal choices are , and cooperatively work to ensure a better future.
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» RE: Ths article was pretty mediocre but
Posted by: babs
» RE: Ths article was pretty mediocre but
Posted by: Astrodave
» Thank you, sane person.
Posted by: carcinoid112
» I Would Also Like To Thank The Sane Person...
Posted by: grumble-bum
» thanks to all of you
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Jan 22, 2007 10:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NOW, meat is the cheapest way to fill up. It's subsidized. And being a vegetarian and/or vegan is expensive and takes a lot of chopping and cooking skill. Try it on a disability income, with a physical disability, and see what I mean.
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» RE: conomic view
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Suggestions?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Suggestions? A couple
Posted by: Kelly
» I've never chopped veggies for more than 5 min.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Almost forgot...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: conomic view
Posted by: zoomorph
» huh?
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CitizenInMedia on Jan 22, 2007 10:33 AM
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Moreover, the author doesn't contemplate the simple decision which humans have. Humans have great power, but with that great power, like the cliche goes, comes great responsibility.
Moreover, the author tries the age old argument of the wild being not as bad as slaughtering animals on a farm. This is ignorant. The author is completely ignorant of the fact that the meat industry is nothing at all like it was back in Medieval times. The meat industry is factorized, bare, mechanized, cruel, diseased, unsanitary, overcrowded, and over-chemicalized. The farm that your meat comes from resembles a factory of corpses and blood rather than a good mama and papa farm who pet their cows when they milk them.
Before you start making arguments like this, you should check your facts.
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» RE: Meat Supports Poverty
Posted by: mbianco
» food as a commodity Supports Poverty
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: food as a commodity Supports Poverty-WHAT YU CAN DO
Posted by: Drclaw
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jan 22, 2007 10:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is going to happen, if people want to keep eating meat, is enough to make me lose my appetite. Sooner or later someone is going to find a way to "grow" meat. They're gonna take a piece of muscle tissue and plug a few hoses into it and zap it with electricity to make it simulate exercise. After many years of this, the "alternative meat market" will grow to reach epic proportions. Just imagine it... massive multi-ton arrays of giant muscle fibers sucking down kilowatts of electricity and gallons of glucose, and who knows how much oxygen? It's really quite disgusting to think about. But I guess, to the next generation, it will be no more disgusting than say, slaughtering cows?
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» Meat is subsidized by government policy
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: joshuawelch on Jan 22, 2007 10:57 AM
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Posted by: techphile on Jan 22, 2007 11:11 AM
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Lastly my impression is that a reviewer who dislike vegeteranism does not really understand the many reasons that people give for not eating meat in the modern world or the role that meat eating has on environmental degradation and decreases in human health. But if beating down a strawman that he erected floats his boat more power to him.
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Posted by: lagusta on Jan 22, 2007 11:15 AM
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While some PeTA-types still subsist on horribly over processed soyfoods and, yes, perhaps sprouts, most vegetarians eat real, delicious food - just nothing dead.
Corrections:
1) That tasteless old "Hitler was a vegetarian" myth dredged up again, how tiresome. Here is a link to an article that, once again, dispels this myth: http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html.
2) There are no health arguments for vegetarianism? I find this claim so incredibly false as to be laughable, so instead of taking my valuable time to correct it, I will point you here, to a recent book by one of the most well-respected nutrition scientists in the country: The China Study, by T. Colon Campbell. See thechinastudy.com.
3) As someone who socializes almost exclusively with vegetarians, I am completely at a loss as to how Lazare came up with the idea that most vegetarians don't drink. Yes, there is a tiny subset of (mostly young) vegans who call themselves "straight edge" and do not drink, smoke, do drugs, have promiscuous sex, or eat any animal products, but these are such a small minority that I'm amazed that Lazare had even heard of them.
4) Lazare states: “But, tellingly, Stuart does not consider the possibility of meat that is sustainably produced in accordance with the strictest environmental standards. Should we eat less of that also? Or more?” “Tellingly?” What? Message from all vegetarians to all non-vegetarians: your elitist little arguments about “sustainably produced meat” really aren’t interesting to us. We don’t eat meat, we don’t want to eat meat. An argument for eating meat simply does not belong in a book about vegetarianism. Lazare’s comment reminds me of all the men who feel the need to constantly turn a discussion about feminism into one about how men are persecuted under feminism. Vegetarianism is not about meat. Books about vegetarianism are not about meat.
Oh, and that phrase “sustainably produced”: please, please, let’s not be babies and say “sustainably produced.” If you can eat a dead animal, please have the guts to call it a dead animal. A cow is not “produced.”
5) For some reason, Lazare sometimes refers to vegetarians in the past tense: “Their analysis may have been naïve, but vegetarians' ambitions were immense and their critique was nothing if not sweeping.” If no one else has yet stood up to point out this grammatical error, I am willing to stand up as an example of a present tense vegetarian, who happens to have immense ambitions for the future (a movement is not over just because the book you read about it is over, Mr. Lazare) and sweeping critiques right now, today – 2007.
I will never understand what is "defeatist" about wanting to live without causing other animals to die, especially when we know that their deaths are unnecessary.
I am a staunch AlterNet (and Nation) supporter, and I would expect an apology and corrections after this embarrassing article.
Lagusta Yearwood
lagusta.com
lagustasluscious.com
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