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Where Mel Gibson Got His Anti-Semitism

By Heidi Beirich, Intelligence Report. Posted January 27, 2007.


Numbering near 100,000, radical traditionalist Catholics, who reject the teachings of the modern papacy, may form America's largest group of anti-Semites.

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"Fucking Jews!"

So began Mel Gibson's now infamous anti-Semitic rant to Los Angeles sheriff's deputies who pulled him over on suspicion of drunken driving last July. "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world," the world-famous movie actor continued, before asking his arresting officer: "Are you a Jew?"

After his tirade made international news, Gibson promptly disappeared into an addiction clinic. He left behind a statement, released through a spokesman, begging the Jewish community for forgiveness and suggesting that booze was to blame. He was, he wrote, "in the process of understanding where those vicious words came from during that drunken display." But their origin is easy enough to pinpoint -- the extremist Catholic beliefs Gibson learned at the knees of his anti-Semitic father.

Gibson's dad, Hutton Gibson, is an important player in the shadowy world of radical traditionalist Catholicism, also known as "integrism" or Catholic separatism. This religious subculture's teachings have little in common with the modern Roman Catholic Church and its universalistic theology. Hutton Gibson, for one, is a well-known Holocaust denier who believes the Second Vatican Council reforms of the 1960s, which made the church vastly more tolerant of other faiths, were the result of "a Masonic plot backed by the Jews." He is particularly incensed by the council's historic declaration, "Nostra Aetate," which condemned "all hatreds, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism leveled at any time or from any source against the Jews." In Gibson's world, the Second Vatican Council's liberalizing reforms are rejected and anti-Semitic teachings and conspiracy theories are heartily embraced.

Like father, like son.

Mel Gibson has his own traditionalist house of worship near Los Angeles -- a church, funded entirely by him, that is not recognized by the Los Angeles Roman Catholic Archdiocese. It is unclear what is said in the hallowed halls of the Holy Family Chapel, since, unlike virtually all other Catholic churches, it is closed to the public. What is known is that Gibson is reported to have blamed Jews for forcing him to cut a scene, in which Jews and their descendants are held responsible for the murder of Christ, from his 2004 film, "The Passion of the Christ." Sounding a bit like he did that July night in Malibu, Gibson told The New Yorker: "If I included that in there, they'd be coming after me at my house. They'd come to kill me."

Few Americans defended Mel Gibson's drunken rant about the evils of the Jews. But radical traditionalist Catholics did. A three-year investigation of this subculture by the Intelligence Report has found that these Catholic extremists, including the Gibsons, may well represent the largest population of anti-Semites in the United States. Organized into a network of more than a dozen organizations, scores of websites and several extremist churches and monasteries, radical traditionalists in the U.S. are preaching anti-Semitism to as many as 100,000 followers. A few, such as the lawyer for Terri Schiavo's family, Christopher Ferrara, are even movers and shakers in important right-wing Republican circles.

Jew-bashing at the Holiday Inn

The Philadelphia airport Holiday Inn is an odd place to celebrate a Catholic mass, especially in a city filled with lovely churches and an extraordinary, century-old Romanesque cathedral. But the inn is where the radical traditionalist Catholic outfit, (CFN), held its annual conference in 2003, dressing up one end of a drab conference room with an altar, incense, and a statue of the Virgin Mary, and transforming it into a church.

The rest of the hall looked rather different. Vendors set up folding tables along almost every inch of the remaining walls, piling them high with books, videotapes and Catholic accessories. The stacks were notable for the prominence of anti-Semitic and extremist materials, from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to Hutton Gibson's Is the Pope Catholic? to CFN head John Vennari's popular anti-Semitic conspiracy tract, The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita. Priests in Roman collars staffed many tables; brown-cloaked monks manned others.

CFN conferences hearken back to the era before the Roman Catholic Church enacted the liberalizing Vatican II reforms, which removed from the weekly Mass prayers for the conversion of the Jews and also ended the centuries-old practice of celebrating the Mass in Latin, the Vatican's official language. At the Holiday Inn in 2003, Sunday's religious activities started with a now rarely celebrated hour-long recitation of the rosary. After that, apostate priests conducted a rendition of the Latin Mass, a format dating to the Middle Ages, before an audience remarkable for the veils that covered every woman's hair and the time it spent on its knees.

Vatican II did not ban these time-honored celebrations, and many Catholics who call themselves "traditionalists" continue to worship in this manner in churches that remain an official part of the Holy See (these churches are awarded an "indult" that allows them to continue celebrating the Latin Mass). The vast majority of those who practice Catholicism in this older form are unrelated to the radical traditionalist Catholics who gathered in Philadelphia. Indeed, the groups that gave presentations at the CFN conference preach a theology specifically rejected by the Vatican, and many have been declared schismatic, or officially separated from the church.


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Blah blah and more blah
Posted by: tsoldrin on Jan 27, 2007 1:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was quite the pedantic rant. Not much substance, but not much expected as the source was obvious by the title. Of course, everyone who mentions Jews without praise or god forbit criticizes Israel is a mindless, anti-semetic, neanderthal thug right?

One question for ya... Burundi, Benin, Chad, Senegal, Malawi, and Mali are some of the many countries more populous than Israel... further, Burkina Faso, Kazakhstan (Hello Borat), Côte d'Ivoire, and Myanmar (Burma) all at the very least double and in some cases excede the population of Israel by 400% ... yet almost noone has heard of any of these places while Israel is in the news every single day. How is it possible that such a tiny and what should be such an insignificant country have such an astounding effect on world (and especially united states) politics and foriegn policy? Should a state exactly equal in people to Virginia be deciding the policy and future of the entire world?

Sure, Mel is an asshat and a drunken fool, and people say stupid stuff when they're drunk, but really... sometimes a closer look is required and sometimes people who have a bug up their ass have it their for a very good reason.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» I Am Afraid You Are Right! Posted by: Douglas
» I disagree....... Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: edsmith
» RE: Very much agreed! Posted by: jim.cos85
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: edsmith
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: insulaparadigm
» RE: Blah blah and more blah Posted by: cottontail
Anti-Semitism Rising in the USA?
Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon on Jan 27, 2007 1:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many believe that anti-Semitism is on the rise in the USA; do you all think that it is? It certainly has been on the rise in Europe over the past few years, specifically France, Russia, England, and quite a few others. Even the normally liberal Scandinavian countries have reported MANY more anti-Semitic incidents over the past 5-6 years, and they continue to rise.

Though most common amongst African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, anti-Semitism is also fairly prevalent amongst Whites in the American South and in rural areas. But it has it seems become more common amongst White middle-class Americans lately.

Though long a 'flagship belief' of the Far Right, anti-Semitism seems to have become more and more acceptable amongst people on The Left (especially the "radical Left," or Far Left); over the last few years The Left has become MUCH more anti-Semitic, much of it tied to anti-capitalist and anti-racist (Israeli apartheid) rhetoric, along with issues related to the continued non-assimilation of Jews.

I've surely noticed a rise in the last few years, I suppose part of the so called "New anti-Semitism".

Has anyone else noticed a rise in anti-Semitism in the last few years or months in the USA or elsewhere?

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» Very Well Said! Posted by: Douglas
» Bible Belt - are you joking? Posted by: vicki2001lynn
Right wing Christians' love-hate thing with Jews
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 27, 2007 3:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They hate Jews. They love Israel.

If the Jews killed Jesus so He could die for our sins and save us...I mean, if it's all prophesized and pre-determined like they say, then ummm...

Now I'm confused...and I think it's part of a Jewish conspiracy to confuse us.

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But what about jesus himself?
Posted by: Ellie1 on Jan 27, 2007 3:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe HE was Jewish!!!!!!

What assholes.

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Holocaust
Posted by: sgfell on Jan 27, 2007 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Jews and the Jewish nation should realise that what they are doing in the Middle East is exactly what Hitler & his Nazis did to them during the Pogroms & the Holocaust. Short memories indeed. Mahatama Gandhi had a point when he said, "An eye for
an eye would make the whole world blind."

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» Well Yeah But Posted by: edith
» RE: Holocaust Posted by: figaro
» RE: Holocaust Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Holocaust Posted by: yellow
» RE: Holocaust Posted by: yellow
Think!
Posted by: paschn on Jan 27, 2007 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, After 40 plus years of having what Israel did to your fellow US citizens on the USS liberty in '67 hidden from you drones with the help of McCain's "patriotic" daddy, I began scanning the internet. I had to find out more about Jews and Israel. Since the "media" here in this free country is all but silent as far as any truth is concerned, I went to sites of foreign newspapers. I saw a completely different look at things going on between Israel and Palestine. I read about dozens of reprimmands to them from the U.N. All blown off by the Israeli owned U.S. government.
I read about human beings sent to prison, black-balled from making a living, attacked, hell in one case, (we know off), murdered. What for? rape?,... Crimes against humanity?,...Murder? Nope,...none of the above. Their only crime was exposing scientific evidence that the "holocaust" at best was extrememly exaggerated and at worst, never happened. I read about British servicemen, a sergeant and 2 other minions, who confessed to torturing a German Army officer for three days to get his name on a confession about Hitler's "final solution". I saw Pictures of the dead and maimed from the USS liberty, pictures of an un-armed canadian peace activist, (who unlike you drones was THERE and saw first hand the Israeli treatment of Palestinians), shot. Are you aware that the Insignificant" little terrorist nation wields enough power to get Draconian laws passed in WESTERN European nations and CANADA that call for prison time and HEFTY fines for ANYONE DARING to say the holocaust was NOT as is taught? Did YOU see the frames of film shot as an Israeli drove a bulldozer over an unarmed 23 year old American girl, crushing her to DEATH? Her Crime? trying to stop an ILLEGAL Israeli occupier from crushing the home of an 80 year old cripple. Did you see the photos of the young man shot by snipers in the occupied lands for brazenly trying to get small children to shelter from Israeli snipers having a little "fun"?
Did you EVER consider that; the same media that helped Bush et al cause the murder of almost 700,000 and counting human beings based SOLEY on lies would also "fail" to objectively report BOTH sides of the story unfolding in the occupied Palestinian lands? Did you read the speech of a retiring U.S. legislator in which he stated that ALL in Washington, him included know without a doubt the primary reason for the slaughter in Iraq was brought about at the behest, (or DEMMAND ), of Israel? When I asked a fellow worker, an immigrant from Armenia, how Europeans in general felt about Jews, he smiled and quietly said, "You westerners haven't learned how treacherous Jews can be, but you will."
Am I anti-Semetic? no. Am I anti-Zionist/Israel? yup.
A nation of sheep, led by a cartel of whores controlled by big busieness. Welcome,.. to the REAL Evil Empire.

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» RE: Think! Posted by: bbfmail
» I had no idea I was Jewish! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Think! Posted by: yellow
another blah for ya
Posted by: motamanx on Jan 27, 2007 5:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion should be outlawed---for the good of mankind.

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Fucking Jews
Posted by: edsmith on Jan 27, 2007 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't agree with Mel Gibsons dumb comment or the reason for uttering it but I do believe that he has a right to say it.

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» RE: Fucking Jews Posted by: tiptopshape
» FIRE! Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: Fucking Jews Posted by: Llama11
» RE: Fucking Jews & Fire Posted by: edsmith
» RE: Fucking Jews & Fire Posted by: yellow
» RE: Fucking Jews & Fire Posted by: blitzmesser
I don't get it
Posted by: clthompson on Jan 27, 2007 6:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Amazing how many virulent, anti-Semitic (sorry, I forgot. . .you all are not anti-Semitic at all, just anti-Zionist) folks are out there. Hatred of the Jews makes no sense if you are Christian. Christ was a Jew. A Jew! His mother, Mary, was a Jew, all of the disciples were Jews. Paul was a Jew. All of the first Christians were Jews and initially, you had to be Jewish to be a Christian. (that requirement was thrown out with a universal reluctance to become circumcized.) But to continue, the last supper was a Passover. Christianity is directly rooted in the Jewish religion, and monotheism was the great Jewish gift to the Western world. It was Paul who brought Chrisitianity to the gentiles and he never excoriated Jews. Christ himself never blamed Jews (remember, he was one), and in fact, it was the Romans who carried out and tortured Christ, not the Jews. Anti-Semitism began a few hundred years after Christ's ascension by one of the early Popes, and because we always need someone to blame for the ills of the world, and we are jealous by nature at time, it caught on, shamefully so. I am ashamed of the anti-Semitc history of my Christian religion and I find myself growing away from a religion that could espouse this kind of virulence.

As for the current state of Israel, abuses may occur, but they occur in every part of the globe, including our own country. People are marginalized and oppressed everywhere and yet Israel is held up as worst example of all. Give me a break! Many Islamic countries are far worse in attempting to cleanse their ranks of nonbelievers (Darfur, the Kurds, the Taliban), and our own country has had a shameful past in this regard not only with African Americans, but with the original inhabitants, native Americans. Read the history of Andrew Jackson's removal of vast populations of Indians West and you will see real horror and you will weep if you have a Christian soul at all. Add to this a recent poll that I read about who likes living in Israel. Interesting and understandable that more than 80 percent of Israelis enjoy living in their own country, but the telling point is that over 70 percent of Arabs who live in the country feel the same way (yes, Arabs live there, are productive, and live decent lives).

Peace.

To those who say they are devout Catholics (and others), but attend these conventions and seminars denying the holocaust, promoting hatred of Jews and others, I say you have missed entirely what Christianity means. In fact you are no Christians at all. Go back to the words of Christ. Live by those words alone and anti-Semiticism can not flourish or even root. Peace can.

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» RE: I don't get it Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: I don't get it Posted by: Glennk1949
» RE: I don't get it Posted by: knjaz
» RE: I don't get it Posted by: off-the-radar 2
Ignorance fed by Nepotism
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jan 27, 2007 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr Gibson may be anti-Semitic and that is a regrettable thing, but he is working in an industry that is full of nepotism and cliqueism in the extreme. I do not subscribe to any goofy conspiracy theories, but the Entertainment Industry's hiring practices, especially at the highest levels, do not pass the smell test.

In a well educated and diverse nation of 300 million people, what is the likelihood that the overwhelming common characteristic of those running Television, Film Production, Music and Publishing would be a religion that is a very small percentage of our nation's population? I would say very slim. It's time for a little affirmative action for the goyem.

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The author doesn't mention Israel - how refreshing!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 27, 2007 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's very encouraging to see that Jewish people around the world are dissociating the very old and rich traditions of Judaism (which include very good scholarship, etc.) from the semi-totalitarian and highly oppressive state of Israel - just as many Muslims around the world do not view the psychotic Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia or the dogmatic Shia clerics as their guiding lights - just as many Christians do not view the blow-dried meth-snorting Evangelists of Colorado Springs or the creepy Opus Dei branch of Catholicism as examples of "Christian values" - just as many secular types don't view Social Darwinism as the basis of rational humanism.

Like Rodney King said, "Can't we all just - get along?"

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Mel could be right
Posted by: rwmk12 on Jan 27, 2007 8:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is mel right? Is there some powerful Jewish presence leading america to war? There are theories going around about Mossad involvement in 911 attacks. International Jewry boycotted Nazi Germany from international trade before Holocaust. The United States came into the 1st world war, and turned the tide thanks to American Jewish influence, and the British promise for Palestine in return. Are these theories true? Hard to say but there is evidence that suggests all three are true. Then there is the Khazar theory that suggests that the majority of Jews in Israel are really not even racially semetic. Hate mongering is wrong, but I am suspicious of our "liberal" presses emphasis on antisemetic witchhunt's McCarthism anyone?

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» RE: Mel could be right Posted by: lotus23
» RE: Mel could be right Posted by: edsmith
» RE: Mel could be right Posted by: tiellis
religion isn't the problem
Posted by: rwmk12 on Jan 27, 2007 8:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
religion isn't the problem... rhetoric would just change to "secularlized" lingo, and the many would follow... Bush is doing just fine with his rhetoric about terrorists and freedom and all that perpetual war bs. Bring democracy to a country means bringing "International" Capitalism, which translates to "our companies will now manage your resources for you, and you can vote for our puppets, since both Candidates our our guys"... red or blue... good cop, bad cop... its all the same

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» RE: oh but it is Posted by: knjaz
A Hard Life
Posted by: meg in iowa on Jan 27, 2007 8:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good article, and with that....... (this is more effective with the music - you can find it online, I'm sure.) Peace. - meg

Nanci Griffith---It's A Hard Life Wherever You Go

I am a backseat driver from America
They drive to the left on Falls Road
The man at the wheel's name is Seamus
We pass a child on the corner he knows
And Seamus says, Now, what chance has that
kid got?
And I say from the back, I don't know.
He says, There's barbed wire at all of these exits . . .
And there ain't no place in Belfast for that kid
to go.

(chorus)
It's a hard life
It's a hard life
It's a very hard life
It's a hard life wherever you go
If we poison our children with hatred
then, the hard life is all that they'll know
And there ain't no place in Belfast for
these kids to go
(Chicago)
(This world)

A cafeteria line in Chicago
The fat man in front of me
Is calling black people trash to his children
he's the only trash here I see
And I'm thinking this man wears a white hood
in the night when his children should sleep
But, they slip to their window and they see him
And they think that white hood's all they need

(repeat chorus)

I was a child in the sixties
dreams could be held through TV
With Disney, and Cronkite, and Martin Luther
Oh, I believed, I believed . . I BELIEVED
Now, I am the backseat driver from America
I am not at the wheel of control
I am guilty, I am war, . . . I am the root of all evil
Lord, and I can't drive on the left side of the road

(repeat chorus)

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» RE: A Hard Life Posted by: jmooney
So Far, So Good
Posted by: JCR on Jan 27, 2007 8:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Well, they've [Jews] always been good at making money (nothing wrong with that) and they know whoever controls the money (banking and financial institutions for example) controls much of the destiny of the "free world".


"When I asked a fellow worker, an immigrant from Armenia, how Europeans in general felt about Jews, he smiled and quietly said, "You westerners haven't learned how treacherous Jews can be, but you will."
Am I anti-Semetic? no. Am I anti-Zionist/Israel? yup."


"Jews have no monoploy on victimhood. They are really good at hating Arabs."


Just a nice smattering of opinions regarding Jews and the thread is still so young . . .

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» RE: So Far, So Good Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: So Far, So Good Posted by: Nora
I Am So Happy For The Jews
Posted by: hole11 on Jan 27, 2007 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They have their own country, they have their own businesses, they have a subsuperpower military, they have nukes and if we say anything bad about them we are called anti-semetic.

I would be much happier if we started making these religious institutions pay for their protection.

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Solution is both papists and jews just get out of the USA.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jan 27, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that, according to Alternet, the two main sources of all wars, financial shenanigans, crimes, racism, sexual abuse, human rights abuse, and sexism are two groups: Catholics and Jews. So maybe its time for them to leave, or, at minimum voters reject all candidates of those religious or tied to those lobbyists.

Inrestingly, it is only until the 'liberal' (to use the American sense of the term) forced the majority society to accept these interlopers that thier, at least visible, influence has been so great on America and, by extension, the world. Remember the 'questions' about Kennedy- since he was an admitted papist and would directly obey his orders from the pope and not the American public? Remember Nixon tapes in which he discusses the pernicious influence of jews in American politics? Remember the recent Vatican bank scandal? Remember the Vatican 'ratline' to funnel Nazis out of Europe once the Allies won? Remember Isreal spies on the USA? Isreal abuses Arabs? And the media/banking interests?

Now, however, the only people who can re-discover the facts are the progressives. No one else can criticise or point out the damaging influence these groups have had on America, except Alternet. However, I'm sure Alternet will be criticised/targeted by ADL, Opeus Day and the other militant militia shocktroops of these two religions--->so watch out on your bank accounts and have some lawyers ready.

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Theodor Herzl :
Posted by: rwa on Jan 27, 2007 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.” Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

http://www.jewsagainst zionism.com/antisemitism/zionismpromotes.cfm

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» RE: Theodor Herzl : Posted by: cold2touch
» RE: Theodor Herzl : Posted by: truthfinder
» Remove the space Posted by: rwa
Good Article, But Too Generous To Catholic Hierarchy
Posted by: thirdmg on Jan 27, 2007 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main fault I find in this otherwise impressive article is that it is overly generous in its presentation of liberalizing views in the post-Vatican II church, and especially of the two most recent popes.

Although the majority of European and American Catholics have become liberal on various issues, including openness towards other religions, the Catholic hierarchy is often mired in, and promotes, an insidious pre-Vatican II conservatism. A prime example of an official Vatican document promoting this archaic mentality is Dominus Iesus issued in August 2000. For a quick summary and background on the document, see the article, Exclusive Claim, from the National Catholic Reporter.

"While allowing that followers of other religions can be saved (though only in a mysterious fashion and only through the grace of Christ), Dominus Iesus insists they are nevertheless in a 'gravely deficient situation' in comparison to Christians who alone 'have the fullness of the means of salvation.' ... The document was swiftly branded a 'pastoral disaster' by theologians involved in interreligious dialogue.”

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Eat the Rich
Posted by: WitchyNy on Jan 27, 2007 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is there so much focus on the "Jewish Holocoast" in THIS country?
Why not focus on the one that actually happened here...to our Native Americans?

Why is there so much focus on Jews? This hatred of Jews is based on power and money...one way or another they got us to attack the Arabs after 911..and Americans know this is true ...they FEEL it...and so a resentment of Jews is rising in our national consciousness.

That was the collective American conscious Mel Gibson was speaking to in his drunken rant...and the fear was as a result the American people would start to think 'oh yeah- Jews DID create this war'.

Israel is an insignificant little spot of land, but it is 'holy land' so we are now fighting a religious war-and for the almighty oil of course. Our soldiers are KILLING Arabs..and people like Rachael Carrey..but God Forbid that we should actually TALK about any of this...or hold any Jews responsibl