All the great extant religious and philosophical systems of the world may be traced to a period of history come have called the Axial Age, between 900 and 200 BCE- the Hindu vedas, Buddhism, Taosim, Confucianism, the prophets of the Levant, and countless others currently lost to history from pre-Columbian Americas and Africa. In their great diversity, they share one thing in common: compassion. The golden rule was and remains the answer for the terrible violence of the times.

In our day as we become numb to violence and torture continues unchallenged as official US policy, will the American empire go the way of imperial Rome and its gladiators?

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-- and I am committedly opposed to torture -- is a tightrope walk I may not be able to make in the brief time I have to comment.

It strikes me that all those who respond childishly -- and let's face it, that best adverb to use here is the one most likely to cause those who most need to hear it to put up their defenses against hearing it -- to a fictional television series, a thriller whose very hook is that it purports that all the events it depicts occur within one 24 hour period, as if that fiction doesn't contain many fantastic and impossible elements to it, for the purpose of telling a story, whether they use the excuse that the story is believable to them or that many elements depicted are researched to make them realistic, are all people who are living evidence that no matter how educated they may be on paper, they still haven't learned enough to separate fiction from reality.

I don't believe anyone, even those who commit acts of torture with the belief that they will get useful information from it, can point to an instance of torture of a soldier or any non-civilian that instantly provided results.

The fictional acts of torture in "24" produce results because the writers need them to, so the story can move forward.

If you're fighting people who point to "24" as a source for their beliefs that torture succeeds, you need to respond clearly.

It's fiction. It doesn't happen that way in real life.

To those who "seriously" look to "24" as source material to support their arguments, and to those who take those arguments more "seriously" than they deserve, I'm reduced to saying: C'mon. Yer kidding.

Bill
Bill Stella'a profile

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i agree 24 glamourizes toture but it has a very specific context. In 24 the end usually justify the means. Jack always gets his man and almost everyone who is tortured provides valuable intel. Also jack ends up working against, not for the people in power. Take season 5 where the president is exposed as corrupt and willing to sacrifice many lives for his own selfish agenda. I dont think 24 is as pro rebublican or bush as some would make out. As a foreigner watching 24 i see many elements of it as a commentary on world events. If it was so pro US policy and the bush administration then i would expect it to show the president as infallible and doing what it takes to 'protect' america... its quite the opposite.
Of course defenders of torture will say that hypothetical situations like those in 24 support their agenda and beliefs but i could just as easily say that 24 supports the idea that the president is corrupt and should be jailed, plus the fact that the only man that truly protects the american people is the one who is constantly attacked and criminalized by the powers that be. I could also say that look what a mess things end up being in 24 even though almost every torture proves to extract valuable intel... how much more chaotic and messy would things be if 100times as many people were being tortured and less that 10% of those people were found to be of intel value.
I'm not saying 24 is the gospel or even close to reality in many aspects but it does attempt to show the pain that people experience and thats something that is largely divorced from bush's agenda. Bush doesnt shed a tear or feel remorse when things go wrong... in fact on planet bush things dont go wrong. fair enough he could care less about 50000+ iraqis that have died, but how about those 'precious' americans that have been lost. Does he care that even now hundreds of people are being tortured and interrogated that will provide no intel... no.

wyldcyde

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...that my jerk of a Republican brother-in-law loves this show so much he doesn't allow talking during the broadcast??!?

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I watched 24 for the first time last season, not knowing much of anything about its history and the right-wing connections of the people behind it. It was an interesting contradiction all the way through, on one hand supporting strong-arm solutions for just about every problem and making use of regular torture, on the other hand questioning executive power and showing the perils of corrupt leaders who try to manipulate politics and war.


[SPOILERS AHEAD]



Sunday night's episode was no different--all the answers for the show's challenges involved guns, knives, missiles, fists, etc. The one twist in the show that actually surprised me was when lead character Jack Bauer, preparing to torture a suspected terrorist, looked into the man's eyes and balked. Bauer had just been released from political imprisonment in China, where he was subjected to severe torture. In that moment, it seemed like he finally saw things from the other side, and stated, "I don't know how to do this anymore."

Of course, his comrade in the moment immediately proceeded with the torture, and quickly got the essential info they needed to foil a bombing.



[END SPOILERS]


I think the essential issue with a show like this is its fundamental structure. The whole season takes place in only one day, and it's all one big breathless emergency. Because the show exists in such a narrow window of time, there's little or no consideration of the bigger picture, no chance for long-term solutions. It's a constant state of crisis, where there's literally no time to think. This plays into the right-wing 'ticking time-bomb' fantasy, and is a convenient way around the larger issues. It's also very well-crafted action & suspense, which makes its messages go down almost too easily.

It might also be worth mentioning that the new season features a sort of muddled president, who's a relative of a former president and is pushed into rash decisions by an ideological advisor who seems to be pro-war, pro-Guantanamo, a sort of Wolfowitz figure, while others further down the chain are troubled by losing Constitutional freedoms and the choice of quick violence over the potential for peace. And some FBI types are shown as heavies for seeking confidential employment records.

So I'm curious which identity of this show will emerge, or if it will remain a bundle of contradictions to the end.

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exactly, 24 is just entertainment. so much happening in 24hours is extremely far fetched. Besides the fact in each season there is a clear and very real threat, not mysterious WMDs.
If we want to attack a stuupid show that is sickeningly pro government... try 'The Unit'. Same guy as president who was assasinated in 24. All this 'we report only to the president of the united states' crap.

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was interesting. Kiefer claims that he has a leftist bent and is against the war(s). However, he appears on a tv show that is blatant propaganda for the CIA torture, stifling civil liberties, and war mongering. If the new world order elites wrote the script they couldn't have come up with a better one to promote the 'big brother' Orwellian state they so desire.

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Television is propaganda. Simple as that.

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So watch 24. Millions do. Millions of idiots who couldn't find Iraq or Iran on a map. Millions who don't realize or don't care about the death and destruction caused throughout the globe by our CIA. It's fun. It's thrilling.

Watching 24 has prepared you mentally for the holocaust of Iraqis and the coming holocaust of Iranians. Nits make lice. Thank God for Jack. He knows how to treat those brown-skinned subhumans.

Yes, watch 24. Sure it's fiction. Doesn't matter. It's purpose is to make it easier to kill Arabs. It's working.

Bet it's the most popular show in Tel Aviv.

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LA Times:

Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba — I AM WRITING from the darkness of the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo in the hope that I can make our voices heard by the world. My hand quivers as I hold the pen.

In January 2002, I was picked up in Pakistan, blindfolded, shackled, drugged and loaded onto a plane flown to Cuba. When we got off the plane in Guantanamo, we did not know where we were. They took us to Camp X-Ray and locked us in cages with two buckets — one empty and one filled with water. We were to urinate in one and wash in the other.

At Guantanamo, soldiers have assaulted me, placed me in solitary confinement, threatened to kill me, threatened to kill my daughter and told me I will stay in Cuba for the rest of my life. They have deprived me of sleep, forced me to listen to extremely loud music and shined intense lights in my face. They have placed me in cold rooms for hours without food, drink or the ability to go to the bathroom or wash for prayers. They have wrapped me in the Israeli flag and told me there is a holy war between the Cross and the Star of David on one hand and the Crescent on the other. They have beaten me unconscious.

What I write here is not what my imagination fancies or my insanity dictates. These are verifiable facts witnessed by other detainees, representatives of the Red Cross, interrogators and translators.

During the first few years at Guantanamo, I was interrogated many times. My interrogators told me that they wanted me to admit that I am from Al Qaeda and that I was involved in the terrorist attacks on the United States.

full article

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You could also take the point of view that this show is very anti-bush and his cohorts and their acts, as it repeatedly talks about the failure of sensible policy that creates the situtations that Jack has to sort out.

If you look at the 1st episode it was due to "hardline" actions taken by the administration that things went wrong. This show makes a large number of decisions that attack both the left and the right so really can't be used to advocate either side. In my opinion as a Brit it seems far more critical of the Bush administration than just about any other American TV show I have seen apart from South Park (again a show that attacks all sides), and Battlestar Galactica that took a huge stance on the whole self defence / terrorist.

At the end of the day this is just a TV show (and a very good one imho) and as any action TV show or movie needs to push events to drive the plot along, in a show that covers 24 hours infomation needs to be gathered in seconds or the show falls apart.

Oh and in all 5 of the previous seasons it has generaly turned out to be elements in the US administration (or tied to it) who are the biggest bad guys.

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... torture doesn't work. Audiences watch "24" and cheer when the bad guys are broken into telling something of extreme importance, but the other side of the coin is never shown.

Al Libbi - the main informant who created the first connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda - was tortured by the Eqyptians for days. It was later discovered that he just said anything his torturers wanted to hear in order to stop being tortured.

As I commented before, this has nothing to do with a "fiction vs. reality" argument - it has to do with the conditioning of a populace. Everyone knows who Jack Bauer is ... he'll save our country no matter what. Unfortunately, no one knows who Abu Faraj Al Libbi is ... he helped Bush & Co. get our country entangled in a bullshit war at any cost. That's what I call entertainment~

www.citizenboo.com
Join the Rational Revolution!

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The irony for the USA in using torture, along with Guantanamo and really the entire "war on terror" thing is that it shows the terrorists have to some degree succeeded. The USA has weakened its civil rights. It's not just torture, but the entire thing with domestic spying on citizens without warrants, reading e-mail traffic, etc. The USA, once believed by some at least to be a "leader in Human Rights," is now a laughing stock when it comes to lecturing countries like China and Russia on human rights. All they can say is "just who do they think they are kidding?" Furthermore, the USA has engaged in torture at some locations like Guantanamo. And, to use torture word is going to get around pretty quick, as it has. The net result is that Arab support for the USA has evaportated. Quite possibly, thousands of Arabs who would never, ever consider radical Muslim politics of any value, now are attracted to it. And, how many more have then gone on to fight in Iraq? The USA has strengthened the Arab hard-liners and terrorism by using torture. So, even if it did work in some instance or another, which is dubious, it has caused such a negative fallout for America and its image that it will take decades to repair. Using torture, like disminishing civil rights, brings countries like America to a level where others see them as no better then terrorist nations themselves.

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I have not watched one episode of 24. There isn't much I can compare it to although I think that a show about terrorism and the people trying to stop them will never get my viewship or support.

But if I found someone who had my property or siblings or was ready to strike at me the first thing he could do after I freed him then he probably would be in a living hell for nearly one hour and after that he wouldn't be able to wish for freedom.

Whatever this program called 24 is doing I think it's great. Doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

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My favorite vote for a book that deserves to be made into a movie, but probably won't is Robert Baer's excellent semi-fictional novel, "Blow the House Down" - a Le Carre style treatment of recent terrorism in the US - a bit like Syriana.

AS for '24', television shows of this nature are propaganda aimed at gulling the public into supporting aggressive military action in foreign countries in the name of 'national security' - even if the real purpose is to seize natural resources for international corporate concerns.

I mean, this is the same type of BS that has been put forth before - here are a few quotes from Nazi Propaganda Minister Goebbels on New Year's Eve, 1943:

"I need not waste words about what this war means to us. Our enemies have left no doubt of that. We are defending our existence. It is good for us to know that. It does not make us weak, but hard. A defeat would destroy us all."

"A nation must fight courageously and intelligently for its existence. But that is not enough. When events intensify and march with giant steps to their culmination, racing toward the crisis, the main thing is that the leadership and people keep their nerve, stubbornly and persistently overcoming dangers and difficulties, letting nothing distract them from the continuation of the course that they once saw as correct..."

"What should I say at the end of this almost concluded stormy year to thank the whole nation for its devotion, hard work, loyalty and sacrifice, for its bravery, its contribution of wealth and blood?"

Well, know you know where Bush's speechwriters get their material from - almost verbatim, isn't it?

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Congratulations to Alternet, this is
an excellent, excellent article.

A couple of more points for those
who would defend 24.

- 24 fans say "it's just fiction"

24 is just fiction, but the arguments
for torture that the show illustrates
so brilliantly are very, very real.

- in season 5, the president was
similar to Bush, this proves that
24 is left-wing.

Whether 24 is right-wing or left-wing
is irrelevant to the question of whether
or not 24 is pro-torture propaganda.

It's interesting that 24 has not featured
any blatantly right-wing terrorists
(say anti-abortion), nor any blatantly
left-wing terrorists (say animal rights).
The producers of 24 do not want to alienate
either their right-leaning or left-leaning
audience. Why? because that would interfere
with their prime-directive: making torture
sexy.

- Jack Bauer pays a high personal
price for torturing (his wife leaves him)
this proves that 24 is anti-torture.

He did so love his country that he was
willing to pay the ultimate price (even his
very soul) to save the day.

Also up until now torturers have been
portrayed as sick, psychopathic individuals.
Jack Bauer has managed to humanize them,
to show them as feeling and thoughtful
human beings, just like you and I.

- Many people who watch 24 are anti-torture,
this proves that 24 is NOT pro-torture
propaganda.

24 is product placement for torture. And we
do know that product placement works.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/product-placement.htm

And that 24 has succeeded is making torture sexy:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0823/p13s02-altv.html


* * * *

If someone wrote an opinion article arguing
for torture, and used the same arguments
made in 24, most liberals would be disgusted with
the author. But take those exact same arguments,
dress them up with heart-stopping action,
and a sexy action hero and suddenly those
very same liberals just melt.

* * * *

P.S. Here are a few of the values personified
and glamorized by Jack Bauer:

Jack "knows" the difference between good and evil.
He's willing to do the dirty work to
"keep America safe" including torture and murder.
If the bad guys murder and torture, it's because
they are evil. If the "good" guys torture then
it's only reluctantly, and for very good reasons.

Cross posted at:

http://blog.tvsmarter.com/2007/01/15/
24-is-protorture-propaganda.aspx

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"PUT DOWN YOUR WEAPON!"

KS sounds like he's auditioning for Napalm Death when he says that.

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It's just the continuous process of sinking to new lows in order to make jaded viewers feel shock and disgust again.

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Rumple Murdork
The
Billionaire Propagandist
Aims his
TORTURE
CAMERA
At you.
You are the captive.
Living in their prison!
Billionaire Hell!
While they ride on Leir jets!
&
Live in Castles.
Millions of homeless live in the gutter!

1984 existed when Orwell wrote the book.
You think he conjured it up?
It is fact.
They build Walfarts
On top of the bones
Of their victims.
The system has been co-oped
The machine is terribly broken!
Time to reboot!

Death and violence is the currency of a
Morally bankrupt nation.

24 is horse crap!
The Corpirates are too busy robbing you blind, to do anything good.

Job One!
Well done!
Rob and Steal everything!

Cower then fleese the sheeple.

Poison them with Franken Food

Rob them of all their safe guards and tools.
Then
Give them a TV
To worship:
The new
21st Century
GOD
of:
VIOLENCE!
24
x
7
SENSELESS STUPID VIOLENCE
Worship the WAR MACHINE
As It kills
Sight unseen.
Surgically cleans
Your own children.
While you:
Hide in your lonely box
Divided and conquered
by
Halliburton Dick!
The Vice Resident of Violence!
Either you are part of the problem
or
REBOOT!

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I have seen every episode. I am also against torture and the interment camps they have proposed in Day 6.

I enjoy the show a lot, but fortunately can divorce fiction from reality.

One thing you may want to consider is that IMHO there is some backdoor questioning of the neo-con strategies. In season 5, the president (and his chief of staff) worked with terrorists to allow nerve gas to be stolen as a reason for a stronger US presence in Central Asia to protect our oil interests. I don't think Dick Cheney liked that particular thread.

In season 4 and 5, you had private contractors for Dept of Defense who had shady deals going on that they fought to protect, and could easily be called treasonous.

On Sunday, the National Security Advisor, Karen Hughers, who in season 5 questioned some of the irrational orders of the president, is against interment camps and rounding up anyone who prays east towards Mecca. The president's sister is fighting efforts by the FBI to create database from her organization's employment records. Both clearly questioning the legality and consitutionality of limiting civil rights, while the neo-con is saying security comes at a price.

So I say that the show could bring about discussion of some important topics. Unfortunately not everyone will do that, but that is part of our responsiblity as citizens.

Finally, the shows airs weekly on Mondays, not Sundays.

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All indepentedent extra-official 9/11 investigatons have concluded that 9/11 was not the work of a terrorist cell comprised of 19 hijackers. They don't venture to say who was behind the attack on 9/11 and only say that the official version is not sustained by evidence. However if "24" is making a case that the use of torture get results, I would like to know what results. If they get Arabs to admit that they were the hijackers that planned and executed the attackes on 9/11/2001 then I guess that torture is the effective way to end all speculation about who carried out the attacks on 9/11 and relieve the real terrorists of the fear of ever being caught.

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The question remains do people actually use TV(including news) for anything other then entertainment?
That is all it is...if it is even that.

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I have also noticed that in the past couple years there seems to be (to me, at least) an increase in movies devoted to graphic torture scenes, such as Saw, Wolf Creek, Hostel, etc. I have been wondering why this trend is so evident -- to entertaing audiences with gore, as in typical horror films, to play on the paranoia among Americans about weird "others" out there beyond their borders, or in some bizarre way to condition us to accept torture as a more and more acceptable tactic by our own government, if "others" are doing it? Yet studies show, of course, that information obtained under torture is less than likely to be true, since the victim simply wants the pain to stop...

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All toys educate, all TV sells.

If TV didn't sell, it wouldn't raise the advertising revenue it needs to sell you the other stuff.

The great USA, doyen of small government, opponent of social engineering, has fallen victim to the weapon it developed.

R.I.P. America

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The American people have no idea how much they are being manipulated by the media. Most are plopped down in their Lay-Z-Boy recliners, fed beer or coke intravaneously, while their minds are being fed images and ideas that really are intended to have an effect. Fox News is the key word here. Anbyone who doesn't see them as the instrument of the neo-conservative movement has to be brain dead.

Mass hypnosis, repeated phrases meant to instill fear, immoraliity posing as righteousness---more and more the public is becoming terrified of phantoms and inured to other people's pain. Fox commentators have helped create this monster, and now everyone is feeding it to get better ratings.

It's all about money folks. And it's all about mind control. With the right manipulation the public will love its dictators and will kill supposed enemies of the State without blinking an eye.

Ever notice how DEATH oriented the media is? Cops shows, "adventure" shows like 24, grisly plastic surgery events, mutant Hollywood stars being examined like they were bugs, murder. murder, murder...it's truly awful and very dangerous.

The only way you can escape these hypnotic suggestions is to turn off the tv. Unplug yourself.

You might actually learn you have a soul again.

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It is always a comical thing when the left joins the right in burning books. I just love it when The Council on American-Islamic Relations joins the Family Television Council in condemning television violence. After all, most comedy is based on putting together two extreme viewpoints.

I wonder if any of the hysterical, hand-wringing rabble condemning this television show have ancestors who picketed "Hamlet" at the Globe. All that swordplay would surely encourage cavaliers to take up fencing; all that death would surely desensitize the roundheads...

This issue just convinces me that most leftists are simple control freaks. They cannot control the airwaves and it inflames them into adopting positions counter to their foundational platform of social tolerance. It reminds me of the senate hearing scene in "Cradle Will Rock," where they discuss little worker squirrels killing the mean boss [animal.] Or when, in Les Miserables, it was outlined how you could tell what Latin American atrocities you advocated by the width of your hat-brim.

Before you go back to trying to ban "24" along with "Tom & Jerry" and "The Three Stooges," take a moment to think about Kiefer Sutherland. Here is a man with an excellent pedigree doing his all to be the best artist of his generation. He is working extremely hard on the character of Jack Bauer--crafting him into a new definition of hero/antihero. I thank God that he is being compensated and congratulated so well for his transcendent efforts.

So what if a few blowhards foist him up as their cause celebre? They don't get the irony and thus continually show themselves to be the drek of society--inevitably anachronistic and none-too-soon forgotten. Why join them in their crusade--you will eventually find yourself immersed in their self-righteous frustration at a lack of absolute control.

Please try to watch more television--it really does help you THINK FOR YOURSELF!!

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Watch that show for 18 month olds and seek the symbolism there that creeps into the collectice conciousness of Americans as we all live in fun loving exploration of the back yard. The show is clearly racist because they have a character named Uniqua and another named Pablo...now who are the creators pandering to there...come on folks.
Or what about the glorification of the sloth in that other show, and there is Manny's Repair Shop...takes nerve to suggest this obviously Hispanic young man is no more then a repairman (one that can talk to tools granted)

A few choice pickins from the posts here...


Murdock spends his billions while "millions of homeless live in gutters" after shamelessly sloganeering like that its tough to take what you say seriously

That poem that appears a few posts above, well, critical comments needn't be made, just look at the screen name of the one comment maker who says "Cool poem dude"

West Wing and Star Trek are extrapolated into examples of collaborative problem solving??? Later in life I will add that William Shatner made one of the most telling and meaningful quotes of his life, in a Priceline ad....He said, "Shop and compare before you buy, Brilliant!"

On to a matter we can agree on....Lets say NO to the troop surge and get the hell outta there ASAP.

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ya wanna know what torture is?
How about listening to the shrieking of the likes of Rosie O'Donnell, Barbara Streisand or Hillary Clinton (on the last one, just ask Bill)!
...now THAT would fall under the category of torture.

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Of all the series of '24' that have been shown in UK I have seen about 61.6 seconds of the crap. Oh, what a disgrace Sutherland is to his family name.
FOX is peddling pig-manure as fit for human consumption.

”God is in the TV".
(Marilyn Manson)

Now, Britain being the most godless country (with least church turnout) outside of S. Korea and the former USSR, it should extrapolate that stoicism and turn off the TV's when 24 shows up.

TV is just a hotbed of prurient propagandist gibberish polished up as ‘entertainment’.
And who needs this 'entertainment' when the world is in the state it is today?

"This is all I am willing to say on the matter!"

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There are three shows that I watch religiously on television. Battlestar Galactica, Lost, and 24. Battlestar Galactica was viewed by the right as an excellent show until this season when the first couple of episodes struck a little too close to home for them. Then they started complaining.

As for 24, I listened in on the Rush Limbaugh led discussion of how great the show is because it emphasizes American values.

Lost? Well, the show is... lost until the writers can figure out where they're going with the plot.

My point is this. They are all television shows. They are all fiction. I was hesitant to watch 24 this season because of all the hubbub concerning torture. But, then I figured, it's a television show. If we have people in power who are so influenced by a shallow action show and use it to justify their neanderthal means of gathering intelligence, then the problem isn't the show (because I participated in a discussion group for Battlestar Galactica at the beginning of this season and the conservatives had a problem with that show because the writers forced the viewers to actually sympathize with the "bad guys"). The problem are the policy makers who can't separate fact from fiction. We don't need to cancel shows (although, if you don't want to watch the show, then don't watch the show). We need to cancel the leadership's terms through the political process (take note of that NSA... I added THROUGH THE POLITICAL PROCESS... I'm not calling for assassination like right-wing bloggers and radio hosts routinely do).

Have we become so thin skinned that we're now offended by television shows? It's not FOX's fault nor Rupert Murdock's fault that the administration uses the 24 excuse for torturing terror suspects. It's our fault for letting these reality-denying clowns back into office. We have a chance in 2008 to make a difference. Learn how to talk about our American values to our conservative neighbors and find common ground. Move the debate from "you're an idiot" name-calling to something a bit more reasonable.

All of us are common people and we want the same things. We just want to go about it in different ways. Whining about how the writers of Battlestar Galactica are left-wing propagandists or how the writers of 24 are right-wing propagandists will not advance the conversations that really need to happen in this country.

However, if you don't like the show's premise, don't watch it. But, also, don't slam the folks who do. I oppose the war, I oppose torture, I oppose Bush's policies. But, because I like the show, I'm a stupid knuckle-dragger? If we start going down this slope, then are we any better than the right-wing bloggers?

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It is just a Television show for Godsakes! I really think that the Liberal mentality is really reaching too far these days. You folks are the mirror image of your Conservative counterparts and you will not even admit to it. Sad thing is, I was born and raised in San Fransicso, CA and used to be Liberal growing up. The thing is, I went out there and experienced life in the real world. It changed my mindset to something of more Moderate thinking. Liberals, just as much as Conservatives will never get it. That is the reason why us Moderates do not vote hardly anymore. The Conservative and Liberal Elitist mindset is unappealing to the vast majority of Americans. Both sides need to wake up and pull there heads out of their collective rear ends. Personally, I don't care who I upset here. In fact I hope that I did. When people get upset, it often proves one point to be true. Because it forces them out of their comfort zones in which both Conservatives and Liberals are wrapped up in.

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As if "24" was on par with BG! It's not shock that while SCiFi is owned by NBC, BG is written and produced in BC, Canada (Hollywood North). Fox makes and writes "24" in L.A. BG is a brilliant, complex, nuanced show that actually catches the most cynical viewers off guard, consistently. "24" is cut & paste ideology-as-product placement typical Amerikaan nonsense. Coincidences? Nah... they're "just TV shows." Neither show says anything about public discourse, cultural values or memes, nothing about who we are as human beings.... because fiction is just pretend, fake, innocent. Keep believing that....

A wise old writer once said, "Fiction is never about what it's really about."

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Kiefer gets to schill for the Fox Network.... and some of the torture comes from having to watch him "act."

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January 17, 2007

In regards to the Fox Show "24" showcasing 'Torture on TV', what do you call those reality shows like AMERICAN IDOL?

Let's face it, many of these shows have already introduced a torturous display on TV networks! Lighten up on programs showing what our future world may be like. "24" may not be one of these but it is suspenseful and entertaining without the pain!

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It was ticking on 911 and they knew it and if not why did they tell certain senator's not to fly certain flights?
They use it at there own conviences!

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The same FOX that called the 2000 election in favor of ol' Bushie...

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The show's connection to the Bush White House and the conservative establishment became explicit last June, when Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff appeared alongside the show's producers and three cast members at an event sponsored by the Heritage Foundation to discuss "The public image of US terrorism policy." The discussion was moderated by Rush Limbaugh. The C-SPAN store sells a DVD of the event--price reduced from $60 to $29.95. Sunday night's two-hour premiere again argued not just that torture is necessary but that it works -- and it's also really exciting to watch. The show as usual made the "ticking time bomb" case for torture: we need to torture a suspect, or else thousands, or millions, will die in the next hour.

It's the same case made by Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who proposed that judges ought to issue torture warrants in the "rare 'ticking bomb' case," and by University of Chicago law professor and federal judge Richard Posner, who has written, "If torture is the only means of obtaining the information necessary to prevent the detonation of a nuclear bomb in Times Square, torture should be used." He added that "no one who doubts that this is the case should be in a position of responsibility."

Thanks to "24," tens of millions of TV viewers know exactly what Dershowitz and Posner are talking about. As Richard Kim pointed out in The Nation in 2005, those are the cases where "the stakes are dire, the information perfect and the authorities omniscient." Of course that's a fantasy of total knowledge and power, and of course the U.S. has never had a real "ticking time bomb" case -- but Jack Bauer faces one every Sunday night on Fox.

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There is an important subtext in the new season of 24 which is being largely ignored: the loss of Americans' civil rights, the right of privacy, habeas corpus, etc. The sister of the President is an attorney who is constantly advocating the rights of her client, an apparent Middle Easterner, to her brother and the character played by Peter McNichol (sp?), who is apparently trying to create an American police state. I think both the author of this article and Keith Olbermann missed this aspect of the program, which I believe will become more important as the season progresses.

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Maybe the reason Jack Bauer is torturing more and more people (and biting jugular veins which I missed because I looked away but my 12 year old son saw) is to show what happens to a human being who willingly destroys the humanity of others. I think the only thing that can happen is that Jack slowly begins to lose his own humanity and then has an epiphany and blows the lid off this practice in the government. Mabye the writers are setting Jack up for a huge moral fall, redemption, and exposure of the government?

One can hope.

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24 has done a brilliant job of framing the
issue of torture. For example, whenever the
issue of torture comes up, people almost always
discuss the ticking time-bomb, or else they
discuss the whether torture "works" in getting
truthful information.

But you look throughout history and torture has
only rarely been used to go after the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_hunt#Execution

For example, the European witch hunts where people
were tortured into confession to witchcraft, and
then tortured into naming fellow witches. If the
"witch" named a person of wealth as a fellow witch
they were tortured until they took that back and
named someone more acceptable.

We talk about the McCarthy witch-hunt, but no one
was actually tortured into falsely confessing.
In the 1950's torture was just considered beyond
the pale. Can you imagine if there was a witch
hunt today? There would definitely be torture, and
the public would be apathetic.

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"The show is much more convincing than the White House at making the case for torture" Yes, of course. We are always seduced to walk a very perilous path:
» Jack Bauer often acts as a private person also. When he is freeing the Secretary of Defense, he is also freeing both his fiancée and his father-in-law-to-be. Honestly, what wouldn't we be ready to do to save our loved ones. So our feelings as father, mother, husband, wife, son, daughter, brother, sister or friend are tackled and of course we're going along.
» We are witnesses. We always know he's after the real culprits.
» It is a ticking bomb scenario. Many thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake. Their Right to Live is surely to be valued higher than the terrorist's Right to Physical Integrity.
» The terrorist is either confessing or beyond doubt convicted and he is not 'cooperative'. There is no choice but to procede with the 'interrogation'.

Now we are ready, because we are witnesses and facing a somewhat stubbern but confessing mass-killing-monster who wants the live of our loved ones and the road to salvation is called: torture. We are very sorry and we wouldn't normally agree, but in this case, in this special case, yes, torture is the only alternative.
If we go down that path, there will be nothing left to wish security for. We will loose our freedom, our souls and our future.
lulando

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