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As Bush's War Strategy Shifts to Iran, Christian Zionists Gear Up for the Apocalypse

By Sarah Posner, AlterNet. Posted January 18, 2007.


Is Bush pushing for a second war or a Second Coming?

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Christian Zionists are dancing the hora in San Antonio. Armageddon appears to be at hand.

As George W. Bush sets his sights on Iran, even Republicans are wondering how to constitutionally contain the trigger-happy king. But for an influential group of Christian fundamentalists -- White House allies that garner not only feel-good meetings with the President's liaisons to the "faith-based" community but also serious discussions with Bush's national security staff -- an attack on Iran is just what God ordered.

Biblical literalists, convened together through San Antonio megapastor John Hagee's Christians United for Israel (CUFI), are now seeing the fruits of their yearlong campaign to convince the Bush administration to attack Iran.

Hagee came to Washington last summer on the warpath, and many Republicans -- and even a few Democrats -- welcomed him as an alleged supporter of Israel. More than 3,500 CUFI members fanned out across the Capitol to meet with their congressional delegations. Televangelist power brokers, like rising star Rod Parsley of Ohio, who serve as directors of CUFI, now proudly display photographs of their meetings with senators, brows furrowed over the seriousness of the task at hand. But probably Hagee's most important meeting was smaller and not public, at the White House with deputy national security adviser and Iran Contra player Elliott Abrams.

Did the two men talk dispensationalism or diplomacy? That the president's top national security advisor on Middle East policy met with the popular author of a best-selling book that claims that God requires a war with Iran demonstrates just how intensely politics trumps policy (and human lives) for this unhinged administration. Emboldened, Hagee returned to San Antonio fretting that "most Americans are simply not aware that the battle for Western Civilization is engaged" and "don't want to believe that Iran would use nuclear weapons against mighty America. They will!" As the bloody fighting between Israel and Hezbollah raged last August, Hagee organized a grassroots lobbying campaign to blitz the White House switchboard with callers opposed to a cease-fire. Members were urged to call the White House to "congratulate" Bush on using the term "Islamofascists" and on his "moral clarity."

Armed with blood-red rhetoric and the hubris of the politically connected, Hagee filled his 5,000-seat church for a weekend-long event culminating in his Night to Honor Israel in October. To an eager audience preparing for the end times, analogies to Hitler and denouncement of "appeasement" were flying. Anti-Muslim rhetoric was at a fevered pitch. All of it was dressed up as love and benevolence for God's chosen people. But what masqueraded as Biblically mandated generosity toward the Jews was nothing more than a political rally for a war not just against Iran, but against Islam, and for the dominance of Christianity (Hagee's brand, of course).

By the end of the year, Hagee was warning his followers that Iran was "reloading for the next war," claiming that he had "reason to believe that Iran will face a military preemptive strike from Israel to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons," and denouncing the Iraq Study Group as "anti-Israel." Although he had spent nearly a year claiming that Iran intended to destroy Israel, Hagee, in rejecting the ISG's recommendation to diplomatically engage Iran, fumed, "America's problems with Iran have nothing to do with Israel. Iran's president has said he intends to use nuclear weapons against the United States of America. My father's generation would have considered this statement a declaration of war and bombed Iran by this time."

Bush knows Hagee's minions are locked and loaded for a war to end not only all wars, but the world. He might have already signed a secret executive order authorizing military action against Iran. But last week Bush nonetheless lamely tried to bring the rest of the country on board with his tried (but by no means true) device of uttering the words "Iran," "nuclear weapons" and "9/11" in the same breath.

His saber rattling won't work for the majority of Americans outraged by his conduct of the Iraq war and opposed to its escalation. But for his listeners gearing up for the end times -- a segment of American evangelicals increasingly united around this issue -- Bush fired up the grandiose rhetoric of a final showdown: "The challenge playing out across the broader Middle East is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of our time."

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See more stories tagged with: iran, bush, iraq, religious right, hagee, christian zionists

Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for the American Prospect, the Gadflyer, and AlterNet. She is at work on a book about televangelists in politics.

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Onward Christian Soldiers?
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jan 18, 2007 1:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This brings me to a question that has me stumped: in their emphasis on the battle between "us and them", one has to ask, just where in the bible does Jesus even mention the moral superiority of western civilization? Oh yeah, right! It didn't even exist then! Never mind.

Describing this administration (as this author does) as "unhinged" puts it as perfectly as any writer I've yet to read. And while were on the subject, what the hell is the now thoroughly disgraced Elliot Abrams even doing in the White House? His very presence is illustrative of the Bush White House's contempt for the American people.

If every person in the country could today read what you and I - the readers and contributors of AlterNet (Just about the most informed folks on the planet, may I say!) have read - this administration would be facing impeachment by sundown. Come to think about it, that's not such a bad idea!

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: Onward Christian Soldiers? sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: Onward Christian Soldiers? Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: Onward Christian Soldiers? Posted by: willymack
» RE: Onward Christian Soldiers? Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Onward Christian Soldiers? Posted by: azmtnman
Political Economy or False Consciousness?
Posted by: volscho on Jan 18, 2007 4:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was re-thinking the Iraq war and how terribly it has been handled and the motivations for it in the first place.

In retrospect, if we had removed our military forces in December 2003 after capturing Saddam Hussein, one might make a case for the war. The U.S. is cleaning up its mess? We were killing our Frankenstein? The Hussein that functioned (from the U.S. vantage point) as a "bulwark" against Islamic fundamentalism during the Iran-Iraq War 1980-88. Also, Hussein was a de facto cold-warrior as the CIA used to provide him with lists of Communists in Iraq to assassinate. He was a hell of a guy. Rumsfeld's 1983 meeting w/Hussein after Hussein had used chemical weapons helped renew diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Iraq. Heck, they even provided Hussein with satellite images of Iranian troop movements so he would know just where to detonate his chemical weapons.

The devastating stalemate of the Iran-Iraq war probably compelled Hussein (heavily in debt after Iran-Iraq war) to invade Kuwait. Troops amassed along Saudi border, no good...invade Saudi Arabia and Hussein might control 40% of world's known oil supply. This ticked off Bush I, but able to prevent this from happening. Frankenstein (Saddam) had turned on us. This is the political economy of frankenstein!

Furthermore, geological evidence on the declining world oil supply makes oil VERY PROFITABLE. It is in economic parlance, a rent-generator because supply contracts while demand expands. Most of the world runs on petroleum and/or depends on things produced by machines run on petro.

Foreign policy: Invade Iraq, control oil, and build pipeline through Afghanistan. Placement of U.S. military bases (when dots are connected) outlines an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. U.S. military bases heavily present near oil fields in Iraq. U.S. firms (capitalist class) can expect massive profit windfall if they can control oil.

Also....

In 2000, Hussein switched from the dollar to the Euro to value Iraq's oil. This partly reflects the decline of the need for other countries to store dollars to buy oil and the hegemony of the Yankee dollar on a global scale.

David Harvey in his book on neoliberalism (2005) theorizes that there has been a substantial decline in the hegemony of the U.S. in the global economy (rooted in the 1970s) and the decline of the dollar reflects the decline of financial hegemony (not a complete decline but a real threat to power).

The U.S. still has the most dominant military on the planet, so the goal was to use the military might to restore the economic might. "Accumulation by dispossession". Since economic growth is no longer able (internally) to allow the rich to get richer, they instead plunder income from the working-class in the U.S. by paying them lower wages and massively extending them IMF-style loans, credit cards, mortgages where the possibility of default is high. Additionally, plundering needs to be stepped up on an international basis.

Also, if the neoconservatives could successfully invade Iraq, it would be another neoliberal experiment where everything would be opened up to the "free market".

Secondly, a successful invasion would promote the neoliberal cause and scare other regimes into doing whatever Washington says.

All this talk of "clash of civilizations" is interesting, but underneath it all is a vicious capitalist class in the United States trying to accumulate capital by any means necessary.

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Seriously-- we have to consider secession, break-up, banning our nukes
Posted by: roirraw on Jan 18, 2007 4:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That does it, this is the last straw. I've long suspected this in the darker recesses of my heart-- that Bush and the Christian Zionists are pushing a war in Iran, and a major Middle Eastern conflagration, as a way to push their own End Times scenario, but this confirms my darkest suspicions and leaves me with no doubt. This is their Revelations, Armageddon, End Times self-fulfilling prophecy, wrapped up and pre-packaged. And we're only months away from its initiation.

To all my progressive friends here: I love the USA and I'm sure you do too, but IMHO it's time to accept that the US as it stands now-- with this odd mix of a progressive, Enlightenment civilization in part of the country and an almost medievalistic, hateful, warmongering Christian fundamentalist, Armageddon-obsessed civilization elsewhere in the country-- can't continue. We can't continue as a unified country, it's this false unification that's preventing the normal correctives to the fundies' madness and allowing this destructive path to be trodden.

In almost any other country and situation, there is a sort of "protective effect" and "counterbalancing" to the Armageddon obsession of the Dispensationalists and the Christian Zionists here in the USA-- their crazy, dangerous religious beliefs and fanaticism, also make them hostile to science, reason and critical thinking. Which, in turn, greatly reduces their ability to do things like, oh, BUILDING NUCLEAR WEAPONS that threaten the rest of the world.

IOW in almost any other country, the Christian Zionists in their warped fanaticism and worship for violence, would also undercut their own scientific and technological prowess such that they also couldn't use the fruits of science to build dangerous weapons. (And for the record, I don't mean all or even most Christians-- who are decent people-- just a very large, powerful and growing segment of the US evangelical Christian community.)

Nonetheless, things are skewed in the United States since we're such a big, powerful country that hosts such radically different cultural groups here, and we have the worst of all possible worlds-- we have the scientists and critical thinkers here who are able to build things like nuclear weapons, coupled with 1) the crazy Christian Zionists who could never figure how to build nukes but are able to gain political power to wield them and start major wars with our military and 2) the greedy military-industrial complex that profits from major wars.

IOW, to use some, uh, rough approximations: The Blue States, with an interest in reason, science and technology, build the nukes and powerful military with our technical prowess and tax contributions, while the more politically-minded Red States and Christian Zionists gain the power that enables them to get access to the fruits of engineering provided by the scientifically-minded (but also more peace-inclining) Blue States.

So the normal "check" against unrestrained military power, mixed with fanaticism, doesn't work in the USA since we tend to stratify people into specialized areas of interest. Which in turn, leads the radical Red Staters (incapable of scientific accomplishments or economic support needed for a big nuclear program) to nonetheless gain political control over a dangerous arsenal, provided courtesy of more rationalistic Blue Staters who tend to be less interested in gaining raw political power, let alone in jingoistic imperial wars overseas.

This can't continue! I hate to say it, but Abraham Lincoln probably made a mistake in holding together this artificial union like this. It's best for us to split up and go our separate ways-- and for all of us, in the newly divided North America, to not have nukes (or to have no more than a token few to deter any attempts at invasion by the new North American states).

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» These have been my thoughts for years... Posted by: chief of okeefe
Did you know that
Posted by: wawa on Jan 18, 2007 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christian Zionism is the fastest growing cult in the USA.


While Jewish Zionism began with the hope that all Jewish people would have a safe and peaceful dwelling place, these corruptors of the gospel Christ preached, adhere to a 200 year old convoluted interpretation of disparate scriptures that they have chosen to weave together to support their fear based judgmental narrow minded doctrine.

Hagee has mesmerized nearly 18,000 misled Christians at his Cornerstone Church with his take on whom the anti-Christ is. He also hosts a major TV ministry where he explains his views of how the end times will unfold. He blatantly corrupts and denies the message that Christ preached. Hagee, Hal Lindsay and the Left Behinder’s are doomsday false prophets who believe that the only way to defeat-what they and the Bush Administration refer to as- “Islamist fascists” is with a full-scale military assault.

The cult of ‘Christian’ Zionism is what the concept of the Anti-Christ is all about. This heretical theology of Premellenial Dispensation worships a god of Armageddon and not the God of love, forgiveness and compassion that Jesus/AKA The Prince of Peace modeled even while being nailed to a cross.

The Left Behind series of fiction is the epitome of what millennia of theologians have always understood to be what the term anti-Christ is truly about

The term “antichrist” only appears five times in the Bible, but a cult not based on sound theology has created an urban legend that seeks Armageddon. The term “antichrist” never appears in John’s Revelation or Daniel, two disparate works of literature written three centuries apart and under very different circumstances, yet the Left Behinder’s weave them together.

The small texts that mention the “antichrist” were written to attack the Gnostic understanding of who Christ was. A Gnostic relies on intuition and not on dogma and doctrine. Gnostic’s were most certainly free spirits and most all of the writings we have about Gnostics, have been the attacks upon them. That all changed when the Nag Hamadi Library was translated and published, for what had been deemed heretical by those in power in the fourth century can now be read in most every language.

The above is excerpted from Chapter 6 of
"Memoirs of a Nice Irish-American 'Girl' in Occupied Territory"
to be released Feb. 2007



Much more on the Nag Hamadi Library in my first book:
"KEEP HOPE ALIVE"
http://www.wearewideawake.org

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» RE: Did you know that Posted by: pingoo
» RE: Did you know that Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Did you know that Posted by: pingoo
» RE: Did you know that Posted by: tclaverdure
The Chisto Fascist Crusade for Oil!
Posted by: williameon on Jan 18, 2007 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bored Again!
Drink the Kool-aide from the
Poisoned Cup
Give up on the present
For a Pie in the Sky
Sacrifice young virgins
In military pies

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Judeao-Christo Fascist nut-jobe and whackos deserve each other
Posted by: mat38 on Jan 18, 2007 6:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The President of the United States of America is a religious nut who believes that the earth was made 6 to 10 thousand years ago and that Armageddon is soon upon us so that Jesus H. Christ will descend from the sky to violently slay all non-believers and rise up again with his most faithful nutwhacks in tow.
I'm not sure what the bloody Zionist Israelis believe in but they better soon realize that Jesus will slay their corrupt and warmongering souls if they don't convert to become true believers and followers of Jesus H. Christ.
Either way it shoud be pretty interesting. What I think will happen is that when Jesus comes down he's going to look around, have a beer, get laid a few times, and tell us all that we're the most fucked up race of beings he's ever witnessed and instead of taking humans sith him he's taking all of the animals, plant and molecular life and whatever else there is with him to start another planet and that humans can remain on earth with themselves.

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Nuclear War
Posted by: CountessKarma on Jan 18, 2007 6:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there is going to be a nuclear "war" (being that the Religious Right's wars are always so one-sided), I swear they'd better strap them-damn-selves to those missleheads so they can go meet their beloved "messiah" while we are forced to look on in disgust....

Fundies should only be so happy that they'd be the first to meet "him," and by "him" I mean Death, and by death I mean Pain, and by pain I mean "lights-out."

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Lions and Tigers and Bears...
Posted by: Liger on Jan 18, 2007 6:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OH MY!!!!! Global Warming, Apocalypse, Mass Hysteria, Global Pandemic, George Bush, the Boogy Man! Oh the humanity!!!!!!! We're all doomed!!!!!!! Run for the hills!!!!!!! Ahhhh I am so scared!!!!!!!!! And you should be too!!!!!!!!! I guess I better give money and vote for progressives to save me!

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» Typical Wingnut Troll Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: Typical Wingnut Troll Posted by: pingoo
» Now, now . . . Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Now, now . . . Posted by: Liger
» RE: Now, now . . . Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Now, now . . . Posted by: Liger
» Ooops! Posted by: Liger
» UK Posted by: Liger
Literalists?!?!?
Posted by: blugene on Jan 18, 2007 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Biblical literalists, convened together through San Antonio megapastor John Hagee's Christians United for Israel (CUFI), are now seeing the fruits of their yearlong campaign to convince the Bush administration to attack Iran.

I take issue with the phrase Biblical literalists. It is an innacurate and generous description of this group, a title they would love all to believe. However, it is far from true.
They are not simply taking things the Bible says lierally when others see them as alagory or something. Much of what they believe is not in the Bible at all, much of the dogma is actually contradicted rather pointedly by the Bible. Far from a literal interpretation, the American Right religionists hold to an extreme and unusual interperatation of the Bible. They are not pulling much of this from the Bible, and most of them are very lacking in knowlege of the actual book.
The great majority of the world's Christians do not, for example, believe in 'the Rapture'. It is not in the Bible. It is recent dogma. The verses they use to back up the invented idea of 'rapture' do not present the idea in a literal way. It is a far from literal reading. The Pope does not believe in the 'rapture' for example, and the word 'rapture' is never used in the Bible to describe a removal by God of those who believe. Such a thing is not in the Bible, especially if one takes it 'literally'.
It would be nice if it were so simple as to say, well, they believe all they read in that book. But they believe what others tell them the book says. Even those who oppose them, like the author here, buy into that. They don't take it literally, in fact they add and subtract and use poetic divination to impose their dogma onto the text. Those who do take the Bible as written would consider these people to be heretics.
Again, ask the Pope if 'rapture' dogma is a result of a literal interperatation of scripture. He will laugh at the notion.
To use that term is to give these religionist power grabbers far too much credibility.
Again, the grand majority of the world's Christians believe no such thing as the rapture, and untill last century no one had heard of such a concept at all. Literalists? I don't think so. Far worse that that, far worse.

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» RE: Literalists?!?!? sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
And the Dems
Posted by: reinaldok on Jan 18, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anybody checkecd out Debbie Wasserman-Schultz -
Dem congresswoman from South Florida. Her screeches about the Israeli-mid east situation are right in line with the hardest of the hardest ultra right wingers. She also, loves to rant on about the absurd Cuban situation and has taken a position, if anything to the right of Ros-Lehtinen and the Diaz Balarts. How did she get elected? Easy - The repugs didn't run a candidate in her district. Why should they, she is more like them, than themselves.

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The Christian End Run
Posted by: BAKslider on Jan 18, 2007 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know why it is rarely mentioned but the agenda, the end play, the goal of ALL of Christianity is the return of Jesus. You can split hairs from there regarding how the stage must be set for such an event but the common denominator across all Christian sects is that everyone else must die. And then be tortured for eternity. This is the law of the loving God who created us to suffer for his entertainment.

Any other version of Christianity is non-Biblical. The Bible condems us all to torment, death and more torment as the default setting of human birth-you are born a sinner and are doomed from that moment. The only alternative to death and torture is to suck up to an imaginary being. I don't have to have ANY RESPECT for this belief system that calls for my death and suffering. Enough is enough. You can believe in talking donkeys if you want but please don't try to teach my kids they exist. I mean really, you've already convinced Congress.

The problem isn't religion - it's recruiting. Christianity is not so righteous that it stands as a beacon of goodness and all that is wholesome. It would die out in one generation if parents quit pounding into their kids heads and fear wasn't the prime motivation for joining up. Christians can have my respect when they reciprocate. Since their creed forbids reciprocation, I ain't holding my breath.

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» Not the Goal Posted by: sln70
» RE: The Christian End Run sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
Crusade Number Four by Eric Margolis
Posted by: rwa on Jan 18, 2007 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It is an open secret in Washington that the Somalia operation is to be the Bush/Cheney Administration’s new model for war against recalcitrant Muslims. The White House failed to convince India or Pakistan to rent their troops for occupation duty in Iraq, but it has succeeded in using Ethiopia’s army in Somalia. Ethiopia’s repressive regime was only too happy to invade Somalia and received large infusions of aid from Washington. The Administration is duplicating the British Empire’s wide scale use of native troops ("sepoys" in India; "askaris" in East Africa) in colonial wars. "

full article

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Doomsday travel for fun and brimstone!
Posted by: sln70 on Jan 18, 2007 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is an interesting documentary called "The Doomsday Code" available for viewing at InformationClearingHouse .com. It shows the relationship between End Timers in the US and their interplay with Israel.

It is amazing how these American folks - most with lots of money - are 'invading' Israel as religious tourists and giving out incentives to the Jews that they believe will hasten the arrival of the end times. One guy is trying to drill for oil there - all with his own personal wealth - in order to help restore Israel to her former glory (something that must happen before the return of Jesus, according to End Timers)

Unbelievable, really, when you consider that it is akin to fattening the lamb before the slaughter. If I were a Jew living in Israel I'd be mighty insulted by these simpletons. I certainly wouldn't take their money and I'd likley try to ban this particular type of tourism.

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What difference does it make?
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Jan 18, 2007 8:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would not worry too much. Scripture has it that the end will come and that it will come in God's own good time. Perhaps Mr. Hagee and other preachers are simply doing God's Will in bringing the message of the impending Apocalypse. The timetable was and is set for the end of days and nothing is going to change the plan whatever it may be. Personally I'm looking forward to it because I believe that what will take it's place is better than what presently exists. A world w/o wicked men and evil. A world w/o liberals. In the meantime I'll continue to pray that you scoffers and unbelievers find the truth that will set you free. If not I extend my good byes to you now.

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» Laughing Out Loud! Posted by: LeaderofMen
Bush vs. God
Posted by: Paul Cardwell on Jan 18, 2007 8:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The mainstream press won't mention it, but the alternative press should. George Bush thinks he can manipulate God as easily as he has the American People.

End time will not come about through his puny effort. Suffering and destruction is about as far as his power goes. Maybe a few might consider their support for him if this theology was permitted circulation.

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doomsday horsedung
Posted by: hangman on Jan 18, 2007 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Bush driven crap of politicians practicing religion in the name of hatred and all that horse dung is about these delusional leaders that think they are somehow 'Gods' not Gods servants.

They talk about inching the doomsday clock closer and guess who is just as much at fault for pushing it closer? you got it,Bush and his rightwing religious demented freaks, with their rhetoric and bullshit foreign policies.

Someone has to tell these fundamentalist to ditch their extreme religious beleifs and snap out it already , cause if they keep pushing , something is going pull the rug out from under them and they ain't gonna like it.

If they think they will be the last ones standing to inheret the earth, guess again. this all proves Religion has become and is nothing more than a tool to try to brainwash people into going on suicide missions in the name of something that no one even knows of.

The Bushites and Fundies have become so lost and off course with reality and evoloution that they are stuck in their own dark world of doom and destruction.

Well if there is one way of ruining religion for everyone eles... Bush and his groupies are doin one Hell of a job.

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God doesn't need their help
Posted by: gerdhansel on Jan 18, 2007 10:19 AM   
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How dare they presume that human beings can force the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. God doesn't need their help.

So they believe in the Bible. How can they be so certain they're reading it right? Dispensationalism is a relative newcomer in the world of Biblical interpretation. Where was the "inspired" Schofield Bible when Paul was writing letters to churches in Corinth and Ephesus?

These poor believers are being taken for a ride by a gang of cynical bastards in the White House. They're dealing with the Devil and they haven't got a clue.

Jesus died for all human beings, even Muslim ones. Americans don't have a monopoly faith or doctrine.

Read your Bibles - Jesus had a lot to say about helping the poor, spending your money and lighting the world. He said nothing about believers going into politics.

God will end the world when He's damned good and ready. He doesn't need your help or want your advice.

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"Convenient Christian" zealots
Posted by: pullmyfinger on Jan 18, 2007 10:26 AM   
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The doomsday hope of these zealots does indeed scare me. But...I just don't buy the appearance that this administration puts on. They embrace these people, they push some of their agenda, they preach morality..but it'a sham. By the President's very actions, so opposite and hypocritical of the philosophy of Christ.
It's just convenient to embrace those who can be swayed by fear and ignorance and provide mass distraction from the real world.
This administration does have a Jesus...it's Supply Side Economics. Period.

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bush and nixon talking points
Posted by: particle61 on Jan 18, 2007 10:23 AM   
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see gwbush comic verbatim for an interesting juxtaposition on 1970 prez war talk and 2007 prez war talk...
http://www.redstateupdate.net/
redstateupdate covers religious wars and the geo-strategists that 'bring em on'...
www.redstateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free
and 'it's all true'

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The War Becomes More Unholy by Dahr Jamail
Posted by: rwa on Jan 18, 2007 11:05 AM   
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FALLUJAH – A stepped up military offensive that targets mosques, religious leaders and Islamic customs is leading many Iraqis to believe that the US-led invasion really was a "holy war."

Photographs are being circulated of black crosses painted on mosque walls and on copies of the Quran, and of soldiers dumping their waste inside mosques. New stories appear frequently of raids on mosques and brutal treatment of Islamic clerics, leading many Iraqis to ask if the invasion and occupation was a war against Islam.

Many Iraqis now recall remarks by US President George W. Bush shortly after the events of Sep. 11, 2001 when he told reporters that "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while."

"Bush's tongue 'slipped' more than once when he spoke of 'fascist Islamists' and used other similar expressions that touched the very nerve of Muslims around the world," Sheikh Abdul Salam al-Kubayssi of the Association of Muslim Scholars (AMS), a leading Sunni group, told IPS in Baghdad. "We wish they were just mere slips, but what is going on repeatedly makes one think of crusades over and over."

Occupation forces claim that mosque raids are being conducted because holy places are being used by resistance fighters...

Local people refute these claims made by coalition forces.

"Fighters never used mosques for attacking Americans because they realize the consequences and reactions from the military," a member of the local municipality council of Fallujah told IPS on condition of anonymity. "Nonetheless, US soldiers always targeted our mosques and their minarets."

During Operation Phantom Fury of November 2004, scores of mosques in Fallujah were damaged or destroyed completely. Fallujah is known as the city of mosques because it has so many...

Dr. Rawi, avowedly a secular Sunni, told IPS that the number of Iraqis who believe the occupation is waging a "religious war" increased dramatically after the 2004 attacks on Fallujah.

"Those sieges, along with all the events that followed in Samarra, al-Qa'im, Haditha and now Siniya have led people to think of the crusades," he added. "Americans do hate us for some reason and we do not find any reason but religion."

It is not just Sunni Iraqis who claim that their mosques are not respected by occupation forces. The mostly Shi'ite city of Najaf was exposed to massive US military assaults during August 2004. Many attacks came dangerously close to the sacred Imam Ali shrine, damaging its outer walls.

Other US raids on Shi'ite mosques in Baghdad have infuriated Iraq's Shi'ite population.

http://www.antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=10347

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» Holy weapons Posted by: openhouse
a nightmare vision
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 18, 2007 12:55 PM   
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I have been generally dismissing as overblown alot of this apocalyptic Christian stuff, but after reading this article I am not so sure.

What would happen if we have some major crisis in this country? Perhaps an economic upheaval like the Great Depression? Or if another major terrorist attack occurs or is allowed to happen? Or a major ecological disaster? Or even all three simultaneously? I am a progressive, secular humanist, skeptic, and gay. Do you think I should move to Canada now or wait for the future "Christo-nazis" to round me up and ship me to the gas chamber?

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» RE: a nightmare vision Posted by: mwildfire
forumgal
Posted by: forumgal on Jan 18, 2007 12:55 PM   
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Re Wawa's comment today (Jan 18) that said in part that Jewish Zionism began with the hope that all Jewish people would have a safe and peaceful dwelling place:

Jews have safe and peaceful dwelling places all over the world, it's just that one of them isn't Israel. Nowhere are Jews in more danger than in Israel. Emigration from Israel exceeds immigration by a lot. Tens of thousands of Russians just left. The elites are leaving. Israel's government is hopelessly corrupt (every one of its top leaders is under investigation for $ crimes), Olmert's approval is at 14%, Jimmy Carter has called Israel on its behavior. On a high note: the IDF recently stood up against a racist law that said Palestinians couldn't ride in cars with Jews. But that's not the norm.

Those who support Israel without qualification do it no favors. Calling on Israel to pursue justice and peace is where it's at. And yes, I'm Jewish.

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» RE: forumgal Posted by: ALANHESTER
This war does look like Revelations
Posted by: dajson on Jan 18, 2007 1:09 PM   
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I label this Christian attitude as the Christian Death Wish, and these Islam hating Christians who no decent Jesus would have anything to do with may explain the verse, "many of the first will be last". Iraq is the central focus of the Book of Revelations, and the 200,000 tormenting soldiers described as occupying where the Tigress meets the Euphrates (Baghdad) are described as having breastplates the colors of Fire, sulfer, and Saphire. Thoes colors happen to be Red, White, and Blue. One problem with supporting a President hell-bent on starting Armageddon, however is that this makes George W. Bush the Anti-Christ. This begs the question, what does that make these so-called Christians?

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not just gay people
Posted by: mcooley on Jan 18, 2007 2:04 PM   
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ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY who questions Bush or the government could be rounded up - these are now Laws on the books - waiting to be acted upon under Martial Law - as soon as they decide to have the next false flag terror attack here.
I don't think Canada will be much safer, once it is combined with the US and Mexico.
Have you thought of Costa Rica?
If you are gonna move - you better do it before you are forced to get chipped!

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» RE: not just gay people Posted by: sphoenix
» RE: not just gay people Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: not just gay people Posted by: zooeyhall
Action Alert
Posted by: rwa on Jan 18, 2007 2:07 PM   
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Please take a couple minutes this week, as soon as possible, to call your Representative and Senators through the Capitol switchboard at 202-224-3121, and demand that they do the following:

In the Senate, tell your Senators that a nonbinding resolution is not enough, and demand that they co-sponsor Sen. Kennedy's legislation, S.233, which would require the President to get Congressional approval before sending more troops to Iraq - or threaten a funding cut off.

In the House, tell your Representative that a nonbinding resolution is not enough, and demand that they co-sponsor Rep. Markey's legislation, HR.353, the House companion to Sen. Kennedy's bill, which would also require the President to get Congressional approval before escalating the war in Iraq.

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» RE: Action Alert Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Action Alert Posted by: rwa
Christians???
Posted by: gmadoll789 on Jan 18, 2007 4:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is BoldEVIL Bold to even Italicswant Italics the 'end of the world' if there's the slightest possibility that Italicsanyone Italics, even your worst enemy, BoldMIGHT Bold end up in the 'lake of fire'!!! Bold ItalicsREAL ItalicsBold Christians should Italicspray to God Italics that it not happen then!!!
These 'people' are EVIL, EVIL, EVIL!!!

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» RE: Christians??? Posted by: gmadoll789
Biblical Schmiblical
Posted by: jmooney on Jan 18, 2007 4:45 PM   
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I am so glad I stopped reading those tortured scriptures written by backward people in a backward time. One second spent trying to figure out the way of the world based on that mumbo jumbo is one second wasted in the only life we'll every have.

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Massive US Military Power off Iran
Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 18, 2007 5:12 PM   
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The USA currently has the John C. Stevens and Eisenhower Carrier Strike Groups in the Persian Gulf near Iran. These groups represent multiple air carriers that can project raw air power and invasion forces, they are not there to support Iraq operations which really on ground troops to fight an insurgency. These groups are equipped with deployed tactical nuclear weapons and massive amounts of conventional weapons and explosives. Big question? Why are they there Mr. Bush??? What are they waiting for Mr. Bush? So, who "goes in first" with Iran, the USA or Israel?

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Divine Survivor Show
Posted by: friggazoa on Jan 18, 2007 5:22 PM   
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From one who is less superstitious, to those who think with commonsense, value knowledge & search for truths: Some interesting things about the nature of things is being uncovered by science as shallow people invent apocalyptic myth. Recent research being conducted at the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC (say "Rick"), in Upton, New York points to the possibility that the "smallest" fabric of matter, quarks & gluons, may actually be holographic! Without getting too complex or mathematical about it, in other words, this whole mess we find ourselves in may be a kind of projection, like on a screen, coming from another dimension. Weird? Maybe we are just players in the ultimate reality show for God's enjoyment? Historically, artists, writers, activists & critical thinkers have used their voices to challenge blind idiot-ocracy and worked tirelessly to ensure we make it to the next season. Lets not disappoint the Creator by writing ourselves out of our spot. Keep on, for Peace.

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Onward Stupid Asswholes
Posted by: pjrsullivan on Jan 18, 2007 7:01 PM   
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Marching off to war; with the cross of Jesus, going on before.

The Zionists say its Jesus this way: "It's Jess...usss."

If you can contemplate that your tax dollars are being used to fund this group of dangerous simpletons, you may wonder why do we continue to help pay for their meeting halls to create such imbeciles?

Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all varieties of the ideologies developed for survival in the harsh Desert environment.

They are cannibal and blood cannibal cults.

Genocide is a animal primitive behavior useful to survive the Desert environment.

Get these folks some food, water and income, and help to wean them off of the blood cannibal cult behavior.

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"Islamofascists". heh
Posted by: ftr23532 on Jan 18, 2007 7:56 PM   
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That's quite a lable for him to use towards his good friends.

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Hagee
Posted by: troubled1 on Jan 18, 2007 11:03 PM   
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I support Hagee. When we get all these attacks please consider Romans 11:25 i.e. the partial-blindness principle.

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Bush Tawks Fernie Cause he's Brayne Damabged
Posted by: 2shane on Jan 18, 2007 11:56 PM   
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Bush is a brain damaged scumbag junkie.... in a 3 piece suit.

That's whie he, he, he, um ah talks funni.

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» Yale degree Posted by: openhouse
Zionism/Christian Zionism
Posted by: herbal on Jan 19, 2007 1:39 AM   
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Christian Zionism is a case of heretical exploitation and perversion of the message of a very peace loving man regardless of what Tim Lahaye might claim. The connection between the Orthodox in Israel and its nefarious alliance with Christian Zionism proponents is partly political and partly religious. Their common interest, doctrinally, ends with the coming of the Messiah; the first time for Jews and second coming for Christians. Then the Christians believe the 'unbelieving' Jews will burn in the lake of fire in the tribulation while true WASPS escape the tribulation.

We must make known the distinction between being anti-Lukid fascist Israel and anti-semitism. Gentle Christianity, peace loving and pluralism is never anti-semitic. Congress is loath to be accused of being anti-semitic and that is why Hillary Clinton and Lieberman get so much media attention. Israel is a theocratic country of largely secular people. But its leadership is controlled disproportionately by the Orthodox. The US needs to repudiate theocracy as anti-democratic in all countries; in Tibet as well as Israel. Theocracy is anti-American. The Faith based intitiative needs to be repudiated in our own country as contrary to 1st Amendment as well as our recognition of Israel as a religious state. Sanction of official State religion = corporatism = fascism. Yes, Israel is now controlled by Fascists and is practising ethnocentric policies against Christian Palestinians as well as Moslem Palestinians. Christian Palestinians are now about 10% of the Palestinian copmmunity and have been herded into refugee camps and are otherwise treated just as Moslems for being essentially non-Jewish. The Israel attack against Lebanon indescriminately targeted civilians. 45% of Lebanese are Christian. Where stand the American Religious Right on this issue; and where is the press reporting such facts when video footage is shown of the carnage? Shame on the press; shame on the religious right Christian Zionists; shame on us for not being better organized.

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Hallelujah! Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition!
Posted by: dingo on Jan 19, 2007 7:41 AM   
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Thank you Sarah Posner. After hack attacks on Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris for ruffling the feathers of true believers, has Alter Net finally figured out where the real threat is coming from?

Although Harris has said some things I don't care for, such as supporting the invasion of Iraq (at least initially), Dawkins has shown fairly enlightened political views. For example, he deeply opposed the war on Iraq and you can rest assured he's not singing, "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" over the prospect of attacking Iran.

These Christian lunatics are extremely DANGEROUS and they are very influential--especially with the Crawford Caligula in the White House. The Israeli war-mongers are also manipulating these Armageddon nuts to support their wars of colonization. For example, important Likud leaders such as Netanyahu regularly appear in the U.S. to cheer them on. Oh well, the Israelis used to be palsy-walsy with the government of Apartheid South Africa—so what’s the surprise there.

This guy Hagee makes Osama bin Laden sound as rational as Bertrand Russell.

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Jesus has been manifesting in the flesh and walking among us for at least 18 years
Posted by: sparrowdancer on Jan 19, 2007 2:35 PM   
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He first appeared in 1988, fulfilling the prophecy that 40 years after the state of Israel was established, he would appear. Most Christians do not realize it. Their push for war is a result of all of the biblical mistranslations into English. Jehovah is not the true god of "Christianity." It was all a mistake. Jehovah is the war god of Israel - not the god who sent Jesus.
http://www.rense.com/general71/defmo.htm
mary sparrowdancer
www.sparrowdancer.com

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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHRISTIAN ZIONIST
Posted by: xbj on Jan 19, 2007 5:28 PM   
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There is also no such thing as a Jewish Zionist, nor a Moslem Zionist.

Zionists are of two stripes, and two stripes alone: Luciferian and atheist.

TRUE Christians and TRUE Jews can not possibly support a Fascist Militaristic country bent on taking land that is not theirs and genocide of the original people that lived there using the excuse of "self-defense."

TRUE Christians can never support imperialism in any form.

Zionists, no matter their origin, have left their faith and traded it for a political belief that it is perfectly all right to steal land and kill indiscriminately "to survive", this belief only masquerading as a religion.

I have nothing against the Israeli people; indeed, they ALL belong in the US where they should have been allowed to come in the first place, if not for FDR, Truman, and rampant American anti-Jewish sentiment.

Zionists, many of whom who aren't even Israeli, on the other hand? They will be the end of Mankind, if not stopped by God Himself.

And He will. But only at the very last second.

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Yostie
Posted by: Yostie on Jan 19, 2007 5:30 PM   
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I'm really encouraged that there are so many people who see what's going on; I was near ready to simply give up and watch the endgame pieces fall into place. But after reading the comments following this article I'm feeling some hope. I was a Christian Zionist for may years until an elderly man, a close friend's dad, took some time with me, a lot of time actually, to teach me the truth about where I was at. I'm 60 now, when I was in my early 40's I was seriously considering moving to Israel and joining their army to fight "Amalek", the 'Infidels', the 'Muslim hordes'.

After my friend's dad started to make some headway in waking me up to the reality of where I was at, he gave me two books that pretty much provided the finishing touch in delivering me from the deception I was under; the two books were Arthur Koestler's 'The Thirteenth Tribe', and Dr. John Coleman's 'The Committee of 300'. I recommend those two books to anyone who is interested in the culture-wide deception being aimed at Christians and Jews, and really at everyone in Western Culture. I would also reccomend that interested people read Daniel Pouzzner's online book titled 'The Architecture of Modern Political Power' , his intro 1.5 in particular (go to Google and type in AMPP).

John Hagee is a false prophet and Judas Goat who is being used by the bankers as a pawn to exploit the fear that has taken over the minds of the people of Western Culture. Because most people want someone to do for them what they should be doing for themselves spiritually, people like Hagee are merely providing a service.

What Koestler proved was that the so-called 'Jews' aren't really Jews at all, but are descendants of Turkish stock, from the tribe of Ashkenaz, hence the name 'Ashkenazi Jew'. (See Genesis chapter 10 verse 3). His research got he and his wife murdered by the Moussad. If most Christians and Jews knew the truth about who the so-called 'Jews' really are, all the turmoil in the Middle East would end overnight.

The bankers are using Bush to push the Zionist agenda, partly because he actually believes it, but also because he is a good cheerleader who can convince stupid people that he has a God inspired agenda. The bankers are truly dedicated to 'The Clash of Civilizations' per Albert Pike's prescription for world takeover, and Bush's religious Christian Zionist insanity fits right in with their gameplan. So he too is providing a service to those who are decieved, per this verse of scripture:

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Two more verses of scripture I find especially relevant concerning the Jews are Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.

One night over some glasses of wine I asked my friend's dad why he took such an interest in waking me out of the deception I had been under, and he said "Because I figured you'd have the balls to tell others." But what has been so disheartening to me is that almost nobody wants to hear it.

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» RE: Yostie Posted by: troubled1
» RE: Yostie Posted by: Yostie
» RE: Yostie Posted by: troubled1
» RE: Yostie Posted by: Yostie
White hot nuclear weapons
Posted by: openhouse on Jan 19, 2007 10:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was saddened to read Ms. Posner's comments on Christian Zionists. She refuses to face the realities of the threats posed by many in the Middle East. Nobody wants war with Iran if it can be avoided. Pastor Hagee is not trying by "blood-red rhetoric" to whip an audience into a frenzied hatefest of Iran and Islam. I lived for a year in a Muslim country and that is where you will hear plenty of hate-filled speech. If these dictatorships want Israel to leave them alone all they have to do is stop attacking Israel. Problem solved. Even a gentle golden retriever will eventually bite you if you keep poking it with a stick.

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» Liberty Posted by: openhouse
» RE: Liberty Posted by: xbj
» Saddened Posted by: openhouse
» Arafat and greenhouses Posted by: openhouse
» Ethnic differences Posted by: openhouse
» RE: thnic differences Posted by: xbj
» RE: thnic differences Posted by: xbj
» RE: thnic differences Posted by: xbj
» Let me say this slowly Posted by: openhouse
» Dungeons Posted by: openhouse
» RE: Dungeons Posted by: xbj
» RE: Dungeons Posted by: xbj
» Portfolios Posted by: openhouse
» RE: Portfolios Posted by: xbj
Atlantica,Pacifica and LakeLandia
Posted by: kladinvt on Jan 20, 2007 5:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Living in Vermont, there's been a debate going on for years about secession, based on the fact that Vermont was an independent republic briefly before joining the union of the 13 colonies. There's even been talk of joining up with Quebec and/or the Canadian Maritime provinces to form a separate nation, Atlantica or something like that.
I agree that the cultural differences between the 'end of times christians' and the rest of us, is growing deeper & deeper every year. We're becoming like the Sunnis & Shites in Iraq & the only solution there is for all parties to move to the respective sides & segregate themselves to avoid more bloodshed.
In America, with the growing distaste that the blue/red, conservative/progressive, sides have for one another, it really may be time to consider a 'national divorce'.
With the Northeast, the Upper Midwest, and the West Coast we could either form a new nation or a confederation of nations or just join our sensible progressive neighbor to the north, Canada, if she would have us.
Just as the conservatives object to their tax dollars being spent on things they disapprove of such as abortion funding, welfare programs for the poor, unemployment compensation, non-creationist education programs, so too do progressives object to their tax dollars being spent on weapons,wars, corporate welfare programs & faith-based initiatives, so we either accept these inequities between us or try for some form of agreement that satisfies everyone, perhaps an 'a la carte' form of taxation or just call it quits.
I know, speaking for myself, I don't want to live anywhere near the American version of the Taliban.

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» Secede Posted by: openhouse
» RE: Secede Posted by: rdrjames
Why?
Posted by: feduphoosier on Jan 20, 2007 10:13 AM   
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There is something I've been wondering about for years. Why did Christianity keep the Old Testament? Is it truly relevant to the teachings of Jesus himself? Because the Christian Right has turned it into a loophole for avoiding all of the real issues Christ was trying to impart: love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies and pray for your persecutors, turn the other cheek, blessed are the peace makers... shall I go on?

Do you ever see any of these Right wing warriors quoting anything but Old Testament fire and brimstone? "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." Very convenient, as this requires no spiritual growth at all. And certainly not the message Jesus taught.

I imagine there were a few passages from the New Testament that involved 'battling', but I was under the impression that these really referred to battling evil. Fighting evil is not synonymous with fighting Islam. And Christ... who hung around with the poor, the afflicted, and Samarians... would he have been interested in waging wars against foreigners? He seemed much more interested in saving the people at hand. Love and not hate. Healing, not destroying.

When did this 'Christian warrior' business begin? With the early popes, who handed out papal dispensations to criminals - get into heaven free cards - in order to raise crusader armies to kill the Muslims? Yes, I believe its been going on at least that long. Perhaps it started with Constantine, the 'author' of present day Christianity. After all, its no good ruling over a nation of pacifists. It was in his best interest to keep the Warrior God - the vengeful God - in the mix, for those times when he wanted to invade a neighboring country.

If these Right wing Christians had any interest (at all) in real history, they would discover that our government has been meddling in the Arabic world since the dawn of our own nation. Had the Arabs been over here doing what we've been doing on their home turf... we'd have our own, 'Christian' form of jihad by now. Perhaps we should just stop exploiting and using other people, other cultures...

I'm actually leaning towards Buddhism these days, although I still hold Jesus' in high regard. I don't blame him for the corruption of his followers. But I don't see Buddhists starting wars. They seem truly interested in peace, and more importantly, spiritual growth. This seems well overdue for us, as a species. We're barely out of the caves spiritually, because we spend all of our energy and intellect on projects designed to kill more and more people, on grander and grander scales. Shouldn't we be further along by now?

We aren't Israelites. We aren't from Jerusalem. Oddly, many Christians blame the Jews for just about everything, yet they spout passages from the Old Testament and seem to think of themselves as 'God's chosen.' This makes no sense. Christ said 'by their works you will know them.' He didn't seem overly concerned with lineage. But works... now there was something that mattered.

I know logic has no place in Religion, but at some point... don't we have to stop trying to be Israelites and be what we are? And what are we, anyway? Apparently we are no better than twenty-first century knockoffs of our 'barbarian hoard' ancestors. After all this time, we're still raiding and pillaging... but now we do it for God. (Er, and oil... shhhhhh)

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» RE: Why? Posted by: feduphoosier
» RE: Why? Posted by: rdrjames
No mention of the neo-cons (shocking!)
Posted by: jdylarid on Jan 20, 2007 10:58 AM   
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God (pun intended). Yet another article alarming us about the literalist/fundamentalist Christian foot soldiers and their lunatic causes in the United States (it seems there is one almost every day). We get the point.

But there are other dimensions to consider. Yes, the influence of l/f Christians in our contemporary society is troubling. However this notion that the country is being run by fundamentalists, and/or that the Iraq war/GWOT is at its core a religious cause (put forth habitually on Alternet) is specious. The invasion of Iraq was mostly the product of a group of zealous and manipulative academics and civilian military personnel (the “neo-cons”) who as a whole are HIGHLY SECULAR. Their primary cause appears to be serving the interests of Israel, a SECULAR society (that uses its small fundamentalist minority as a bulwark on its frontiers). Other causes and goals remain difficult to discern but at the wider level, it seems simply to be about controlling resources present and future, as is generally the case.

Many fundamentalists support the GWOT/Iraq War as a religious cause (and many don’t), and many are fighting in it. But they are not its architects. Whether Bush Jr. is actually pious is open to debate, but it doesn’t matter. He is barely able to hold a coherent press conference in his native language. He is essentially a figurehead. The fundamentalists in the U.S. are useful idiots (as our their Islamic counterpart foot soldiers). This notion is supported by evangelical David Kuo’s recent book, in which he writes about his experiences inside the Bush Jr. administration, where Christians and their causes were openly mocked.

It should be noted also that "neo-conservatism" has its origins on the left.

What's interesting is that this dynamic is receiving more attention over time from intelligent commentators on both the left and right in the alternative press (and even CBS!). Except for Alternet. I wonder why?

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A "Match Made in Heaven" -- Zionist Christians & Jews: Apocalyptic Freaks the Lot of Them
Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon on Jan 21, 2007 12:06 AM   
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dick
Posted by: rtmyth on Jan 21, 2007 3:28 PM   
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Hagee is eager for Armageddon, he says. But, he is busy accumulating wealth,lives in a mansion, and is coaching his son as his successor. Listen to what he says, but pay more attention to what he does. Another Gantry, but infinitely more dangerous.

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» RE: dick Posted by: rdrjames
Bush's Apocalypse?
Posted by: Dianka on Jan 25, 2007 6:16 PM   
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Regarding Bush's/Rel. Right's visions of Apocalypse, the Bible states that we won't know "the hour or the day" of the Apocalypse, and it would be the height of arrogance to try to set the date on the basis of anyone's own personal agenda. And as that same Bible points out so often, the arrogant will be brought down. Maybe these folks should try reading the Bible before they spout verses out of context.

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Why Going to War with Iran is a Dangerous (and Costly) Mistake
Posted by: Daniel Buk on Feb 1, 2007 3:44 PM   
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Our Administrations' stated reason for going to war with Iran is that Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is vehemently anti-US and can support his anti-US views with a military strike against the U.S. and/or Israel, therefore posing a credible threat to that needs to be dealt with. The Administration concludes that we have to stop the threat by launching our own preemptive military strike. This is a terrible idea supported by flawed logic. Yes, Ahmadinejad hates the US. Yes, he is an Islamist. Yes, he opposes Israel's right to exist. Nonetheless, he currently cannot do anything about it- yet, if we do invade, the political tide will likely turn and Ahmadinejad will then be able to do something about it. He's all talk- at least for now. Anyone who at least knows anything about Iran's internal political landscape knows this. I will attempt to explain:

The Iranian President is just a figurehead in Iran with no real authority. As President, Ahmadinejad cannot appoint his cabinet, he cannot appoint military or judicial leaders and most importantly, he is not even the Commander-in-Chief of Iran's military (that constitutional authority lies with Iran's Supreme Leader). Iranian President Ahmadinejad is increasingly under criticism from the Iranian Majlis, Iran's parliament. Ahmadinejad is steadily becoming marginalized by Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader of Iran, who is in turn supervised by the Iranian Mujtahids (council of 86 Islamic legal experts), who are also critical of Ahmadinejad. Growing numbers of the rest of the Marjas (Grand Ayatollahs) of Iran are marginalizing Ahmadinejad. Parviz Davoodi, First Vice President to Ahmadinejad, also strongly disagrees with Ahmadinejad on some very big issues (there are 10 Vice Presidents in total). More and more Iranian citizens are becoming disenchanted with Ahmadinejad. Ali Larijani, the chairman of Iran's Supreme National Security Council (SNSC), is progressively alienated by Ahmadinejad and shares Khamnei's reservations of Ahmadinejad's policies, especially his confrontational anti-US rhetoric on foreign policy (mind you that criticism of Ahmadinejad ranges from democratic reformers and dissidents within the majority of Iranian civil society to theocratic traditionalists among Iran's clerics). This mounting criticism will probably dissipate if the US invades Iran, and the rising resentment towards Ahmadinejad will probably be redirected towards the US and a lengthy retaliation against the US will likely stem from a revitalized, consolidated coalition among Ahmadinejad, the Iranian Majlis, the Majras, the Mujtahids and Iranian civil society. They will likely put aside their differences and unite against any US invasion force, probably solidifying and even intensifying Iranian support for Ahmadinejad's anti-US rhetoric. If we invade Iran, any hopes Iranian society has for democracy will likely be replaced with hatred and contempt for the US presence there. If we invade Iran, we can say goodbye to any hopes for a stable Iranian democracy for (at least) another decade, which in turn will further destabilize the already imperiled Middle East and upset the chances of peace in the region.

If we invade Iran, we will be hurting its chance at stability and democracy. We will also be giving the Iranians every reason to rally around Ahmadinejad and consolidate his anti-US rhetoric into actual policy. Specifically, we might cause the Supreme Leader to transfer his Commander-In-Chief responsibilities to Ahmadinejad, giving him the reigns of Iran's military and thereby adding military strength to his anti-U.S and anti-Israel rhetoric. Iran's military is significantly larger than Iraq's and better equipped. Plus, there's a real chance that Hizballah might come in to help their sponsors, brining in their extra firepower- in effect reinforcing Iran's already powerful military.

He'd be sending more of our nation's children to die needlessly.

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RE: SUbject
Posted by: troubled1 on Feb 16, 2007 7:39 PM   
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What is wrong with you lorix02. This is disgusting what you have put here. No shame for you.

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