COMMENTS: 103
How Bars Exploit Underage Women as Commodities
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest headlines via email.
"No cover for girls before midnight!"
"18+ for ladies, 21+ for guys."
These were the general admission policies for many clubs in New York as the city was getting into the holiday spirit. These policies were advertised on club promotion Web sites or barked at patrons waiting in line to be admitted to the bars and clubs.
But the warmer welcome that young and underage women -- those under 21 -- get at bars is not special to the holidays or New York. Throughout towns and cities across the country bars and clubs often offer discounts to young women.
At Club Paris, for instance -- heiress Paris Hilton's nightclub in Orlando, Fla. -- young women over 18 pay no cover charge before midnight and are admitted free if they have a college ID. Young men, by contrast, are required to pay a cover charge of $10 before midnight and $5 with a college ID.
While guys their age often get stopped at the nightclub or bar door for lack of convincing proof of age, many young women say they are admitted without a glance or question. Once inside, they are often offered complimentary drinks.
"Bars give away free drinks, then guys offer to buy girls even more drinks and then girls dance erotically with them," says Kate Morris, a 19-year-old from Massachusetts, who says she often goes to bars and clubs with her friends in New York City.
Jennifer O'Connor is a graduate student at the University of Albany. "I never had trouble getting into bars when I was underage," she says. "Granted, a lot of my friends were older. When I was underage I'd often tag along with my 21-plus friends. The bouncer knows if he turns down the two or three underage girls, he's going to lose a group of 12 patrons."
Open Door Is Open Secret
While there are no statistics or national studies about the incidence of bars breaking laws and doing what they can to attract young and underage women, Gary Miller, a senior at New York University, said it's an open secret.
The secret burst into the new York City headlines, however, in July 2006. In a second homicide that summer in the city involving a young woman who had been drinking to excess, 18-year-old Jennifer Moore left one of the city's most exclusive lounges intoxicated. Walking alone in the early morning hours along the city's West Side Highway, she was abducted and raped. Two days later she was found disemboweled in a dumpster in Weehawken, N.J.
"Bar and club owners definitely exploit women," said Miller, who wrote an article in November headlined "Girls exchange dignity for attention in trendy clubs" in the Washington Square News, New York University's student newspaper. "Women become a commodity of the establishment that owners use to draw male patrons in. I think the reason most men go to bars and clubs is to find women. This is why they'll pay a cover charge while women get in free; they're paying for the women inside. Bar and club owners know this. They know the success and appeal of their establishment depends on the quantity and attractiveness of the girls inside."
Clubs use Web sites like ClimaxVIP.com and ClubPlanet.com to display pictures of attractive patrons. Often they are female, underage, scantily clad and striking erotic poses. These sites also point readers to the "hottest parties" at popular clubs and offer tips on how to try and get in.
Paid to Bring Friends
A popular job for attractive young women -- often underage women -- is to serve as a "club promoter." This person is almost always a well-groomed young woman who gets paid based on how many of her attractive female friends she brings to bars to hang out.
She can also be remunerated when she gets male friends to make "bottle reservations," which often entail paying $100 or more to reserve a table that comes with a "complimentary" bottle of expensive alcohol, such as vodka.
"It's no secret to New York businesses that the mere presence of attractive women at their establishment can have a positive impact on both revenues and image," says NYFlirts.com Web site, a company that hires out club promoters to bars and clubs. "In a highly competitive atmosphere like Manhattan, businesses such as bars, clubs and lounges are willing to go the extra mile to gain the patronage of attractive women. NYFlirts.com understands this and has developed a unique system to assist businesses with offering incentives to our lovely members."
The interest of older bar and club managers and male patrons can be a bit intoxicating itself. "We have sex appeal, and we can use it to get past male bouncers, while guys can't do the same," says Kate Morris. "Young women in bars draw in men. Men likes us young'uns."
70,000 Date Rapes a Year
Over 70,000 alcohol-related date rapes a year are committed among students aged 18 to 24, according to "Reducing Underage Drinking: A Collective Responsibility," a 2004 report from the National Academies. The report also finds that 29 percent of those between 15 and 17, and 37 percent of those between 18 and 24, said that alcohol or drugs influenced their decision to do something sexual.
Two months after Jennifer Moore's murder, the speaker of the New York City Council, Christine Quinn, promised the participation of the City Council, nightclub owners and police officers, among others, to make "sure that New York City has the most exciting -- and safest -- nightlife in the world." They hope to have legislative plans in place by next year.
Some grassroots initiatives try to help women out on the town get home safely.
In New York, for instance, a Brooklyn-based nonprofit called Right Rides provides free car service for women on Saturday nights who don't feel safe taking the subway and don't have alternative means of transportation.
But even with laws and initiatives and special public precautions in place, Quinn acknowledged that young people "who go out at night remain at risk until they get back home."
Stay up to date with the latest AlterNet headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drblack on Jan 2, 2007 12:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People often do dumb things. One can hope they will not be hurt by their actions.
These days you see the media glorifying talentless and stupid women (and men)going to bars and dancing some pretty provocative dances...perhaps yopung people in general should work on their minds and talents instead.
Young people have done silly things forever.
Their should be a way for anyone who has drank too much to get a free ride home. Drunk driving is a transportation problem.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: are they being forced?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rsaxto on Jan 2, 2007 1:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: sleazy
Posted by: ryazbeck
» RE: sleazy
Posted by: laoma
» RE: sleazy
Posted by: Poe
» Love It Or Leave It?
Posted by: ignition
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ryazbeck on Jan 2, 2007 2:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where I see that it is getting to the point that is it becoming disturbing is in Austin, TX specifically on 6th street where a great number of ~21-26 year old college students spend many of their Thursday - Saturday night escapades. Not only are women encouraged to become as intoxicated as possible, without passing out or puking, but the guys are aggressive, plastered and horny as all hell, and they will stop at almost nothing to put their hands on or get inside of any remotely attractive female even when the female is obviously not available. I've become quite perturbed by the scene and have recently not been visiting that area (has been several months since my last visit).
It even occurs in the more upscale areas of Austin's downtown area such as the 5th street area where you have the 24 - 40ish crowd who have graduated and are actively pursuing their careers and yet the mentality and attitude towards women still exists, but is more manipulative and subtle, in my opinion. The men are more skilled at approaching women, have much more money, and are much more appealing, especially to the naive female.
I don't really see an end to this type of behavior so the only effective solution I can provide for my female friends is to be extremely careful or to avoid the situation altogether. These females in these situations must also be responsible for themselves, they are choosing to consume multiple drinks, they can also choose to not consume them, be self-respectable, meet people, and still have a good time. In my opinion the universal solution to situations like this is not strict regulation, like the American government thinks is always the best for us, but rather education on responsible drinking and "bar-style-survival skills" such as effective communication with friends, sticking together and watching out for each other and their actions.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 2, 2007 2:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trick is to dress up like a girl, get in free, then change to your regular clothes once you get inside...Not that I've ever tried that...Not even once.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Suckers
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Suckers
Posted by: bluestatehorses
» RE: Suckers
Posted by: garyjminter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Fantasyartist on Jan 2, 2007 3:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SufiLizard on Jan 2, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Young men and women have always been a bit ego-centric and shallow, and to a certain extent, I think it's perfectly normal - if not always "healthy."
But as with most things, we seem to take it to excess.
I remember in my active bar-scene days back in the '90s we used to walk past a couple of nightclubs with lines around the block of people willing to wait up to two hours to get in and listen to crappy "pop" music while we could go hear the best band in town for just a $2 or $3 cover and no wait.
I had raging hormones too, but there was a limit to what I would endure to try to appease them.
Anyway, a lot of this is just the nature of youth. I'm not real anxious to encourage government intervention of people's personal choices -- although we should certainly enforce the laws we have that regulate the appropriate ages for admission to bars. And we, as a society, should try to make it as safe as possible for these people to get home.
The rest, I think is a cultural issue. We need a stronger sense of responsiblity and community so people look after one another a little bit. I was lucky to have good friends who weren't afraid to intervene if they thought you were about to do something stupid.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MAD on Jan 2, 2007 6:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all know that men are idiots (in case this article didn't convince you) and not to be trusted, so it's clear what needs to be done: a woman, rare flower that she is, must be paternalistically protected and sheltered until the age of 35 when she is mature enough to make wise decisions on her own. Until such time, 18-34 year-old women are simply too young to be doing things by themselves. I would offer this suggestion. Any female under the age of 35 must be accompanied by a male relative everywhere she goes. What do you think?
In all seriousness, I don't know what struck me as more idiotic. This story or the fact that America is still so backward that we are allowed to consume alcohol only after age 21. It's too bad these girls are imbibing at bars and clubs because we all know that alcohol is not otherwise available to those under the age of 21 - ever!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: H_H on Jan 2, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Damn, that's diabolical. Enslaving women by giving them free drinks? How nefarious can you get?
Next thing you know, giving women free planet tickets to Tahiti will become a new form of torture.
Is there ANYTHING on this planet that doesn't turn women into victims?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Because women have titties they are enslaved in titty bars? Blame it on...?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Because women have titties they are enslaved in titty bars? Blame it on...?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Zenobia on Jan 2, 2007 8:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The larger question, though, is why do so many women not get the TOOLS they need NOT to be victims? Why don't both girls AND boys get the tools they need to treat all their brothers and sisters with dignity and respect?
We recognize that in order for people to be responsible voters, they need to learn to read and how to learn to analyze media sources. They need access to reliable media/information, and they need to feel empowered enough to believe that their involvement in the civic process matters.
Likewise, for girls and women to choose--as active agents not victims--how to make smart choices and how to recognize when they are being exploited, they need to learn how to read situations and how to analyze the media sources that try to brainwash them into being products for someone else to get rich. They need access to strong, self-aware role models as they form their identities. They need to be empowered enough to realize that they do not have to follow pack-herd mentality to have worth.
Maybe if girls and young women were innundated with as many images of females as astronauts, professors, heads of socially responsible companies making a difference, contemplative poets, and athletes celebrated for their ability rather than for their ability to turn shallow men's heads---
--as they were innundated with images of bimbos jiggling for male approval,
they would think about themselves a little differently, and make more empowered choices. Likewise, maybe boys would treat young women like something other than the sex objects they see everywhere, conditioning them to think of all "girls" as hunks of meat.
Girls need to speak up and assert themselves against their own exploitation for the situation to ever change, and I applaud Liz for being one of those who has the guts to do it. That is how you say NO to being a victim and YES to being empowered.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» victim victim victim
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: peckwood
Comments are closed-
Posted by: arclight on Jan 2, 2007 8:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
18+ for women, 21+ for men.
That's illegal.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Lawsuit!
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Lawsuit!
Posted by: Phenix
» Sign up for selective service!
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: I never understood how sex discrimination was legal.
Posted by: garyjminter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jackofalltrades on Jan 2, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rampant STD's, cervical cancer, genital warts, abortions and disemboweled women are a small price to pay for the right of older males to enjoy these girl-children.
There is only one surprise here, and that is that they don't pay these female pimps to haul in fresh females from the age of twelve. Could this help but raise club revenue? Let us hope this oversight will soon be rectified.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WHO SAYS WE DON'T HAVE LEGAL PROSTITUTION?
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: WHO SAYS WE DON'T HAVE LEGAL PROSTITUTION?
Posted by: Wacre
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kathat on Jan 2, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The flyers talk about a plan a action like never leaving someone alone when you go home, never leaving a drink unattended, etc....They have since moved but every city they go to they repeat the message.
I think women of all ages should see that this type of action occurs wherever they see this type of behavior.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jan 2, 2007 10:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: So what are you proposing?
Posted by: Sushi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: activist on Jan 2, 2007 10:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm afraid that far too many women -- young or old -- remain at risk even after they "get back home"
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Until they get back home...
Posted by: browngoddess
» RE: Until they get back home...
Posted by: karoblink
Comments are closed-
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jan 2, 2007 11:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) lower alcohol drinking age to reasonable levels.
2) stop promoting sex as 'evil' or 'bad'
3) legalise prostitution
4) recognise that sex is fun and can be separate from marriage, long-term relationship, and procreation.
5) stop criticising other people and let them persue happiness in their own way.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Puritanism of the 'left'
Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: Puritanism of the 'left'
Posted by: MAD
» No, YOU get real...
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Puritanism of the 'left'
Posted by: Izzy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Jan 2, 2007 12:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But women can take advantage of the offers without becoming victims. And men can find other clubs with gender-neutral drink specials and covers.
In my years of clubbing (and I look like a Barbie), I've never been come onto by a guy who pressured me, or even attempted to pressure me into anything beyond perhaps a pathetic attempt because he had nothing to loose. Sometimes after being refused they call me a name, but, whatever. That's part of bar and clubbing culture. The time I was slipped the date rape drug, yeah that guy was a friend, not a stranger.
Now, what I thought this article would be about is how clubs pay some women to be there, not as servers, but just to be there. I was offered a "job" like that and turned it down. That kind of situation does place the women at risk for harassment that would practically be part of her contract.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Thank you. I thought that the double-edge of "women-as-victims" had been ok'd by feminists. But...
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Thank you. I thought that the double-edge of "women-as-victims" had been ok'd by feminists. But.
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir on Jan 2, 2007 1:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS ARTICLE IS BULLSHIT. Straight out. Period. Did she even talk to any promoters? Fucking garbage.
Free for ladies, pay for guys: Believe it or not, this is so that you don't get too many drunk, horny men in one place. The more drunken guys you have, the more problems the bouncers have. Look, no club owner or promoter wants to get sued for something, and they're not sitting there thinking, "OOOOH! Let's get some young sluts in here, get them drunk, and pass them to the guys!!!" Bitch, please.
Age difference: Guys are seen as being less mature that the girls. Once again, you don't want unruly, young assholes in clubs. A three-year age gap usually evens this out.
18 and over vs. 21+: 21+ is what most promoters go for, simply because they don't want the liability, or the fines, of possibly underage drinking. 18+ parties are seen by many to be tacky and childish.
Girl "promoters": They make a pretty good number per head to get thier friends in the door. And, uh, women have female and male friends. Bottle service is more expensive, but you get a table, a room to yourself, interesting guests, privates DJs, etc. Also, one bottle can make about 15 drinks, which is worth it in NYC. They also give unlimited mixers and soda, because NOT EVERYONE DRINKS. And there are male promoters, too.
Wanting to get pretty girls into a club: This is wrong because...? Oh, right. Us attractive women are supposed to be attractive in the privacy of our own homes! We can't be confident in ourselves, yet like appreciation from a guy. That's right. How unfeminist of me!
Women getting ridiculously drunk: Hey, you're 21. Even if the shit's free, cut yourself off. No one's holding a bottle to your lips. Use some goddamn responsibility. If you know you're heading home late, be sensible and watch what you do!!!!! Crime is awful, but you have to not be making yourself a walking target, either. I'm not saying that crime is the victim's fault at all, but it certainly is yanking the tiger's tail if you walk out alone, sexily dressed, smashed to the gills through Bushwick at 4 AM.
ALTERNET, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!?!?! I think this article just pushed you guys past freaking Freeperville in the prudishness category. Why would you post an article that has so little balanced reporting!??!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: H_H
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Scientz
» Also...
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Also...
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Izzy
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Composidore
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jan 2, 2007 2:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: The new youth culture
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: The new youth culture
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: The new youth culture
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fiskhus on Jan 2, 2007 3:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As soon as ignorant Americans stop being so loudly approving of the very criminals who are stealing their tax dollars, we may be able to inject some morality into the business atmosphere.
But until Americans, as a voting bloc, vote for morality, it will be difficult. Too bad all those fundamentalist and evangelicals are NOT real Christians; too bad they don't care about real morality - too bad they only care about maintaining their "right" to kill some poor mother's son for their own profit.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lrhamelin on Jan 2, 2007 6:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sex is dirty, horrible and disgusting
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Sex is dirty, horrible and disgusting
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DataDoc on Jan 2, 2007 7:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jan 2, 2007 7:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If they tried that in Australia, the bar owners would be in court on discrimination charges so fast their heads would spin.
A club here in Melbourne just recently advertised a Christmas party in which women wearing bikinis were going to be given free drinks.
They never had a hope - the club was made to cancel the bikini idea.
bikini booze-up
And in whose bizarre (p)universe is _20_ considered underage?
Jeezuz - if you can vote at 18 and drive at 18 and be sent off to be ripped to shreds in Iraq at 18, married to your cousin at 12 and have umpteen kids by 16, you should be able to DRINK at 18...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» no aussie bashing please
Posted by: jo5ef.k
» RE: no aussie bashing please
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: karoblink on Jan 2, 2007 10:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The message and implication of the article was; women who go to bars and drink alcohol are putting themselves at risk for rape, period. I am astounded that a feminist website would be so irresponsible by reinforcing these rape myths.
I am a volunteer sexual abuse crisis counselor, and I can not tell you how many times women have been assaulted and blame themselves because they were at a bar drinking and felt that they were somehow responsible. Additionally, because fear of being blamed is common, the decision for a victim to report a sexual assault becomes more difficult. Ms. Funk's article only will confirm these fears by erroneously placing the fault onto to the victim.
The “blame the victim” rhetoric is over; efforts need to be made for men (especially young boys) in creating a more positive attitude towards women. This is a very difficult task, however, reinforcing rape myths and posting them on a website for women to read sets back the sexual assault movement decades.
This article will do nothing but provide a disservice to women.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: karoblink
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: karoblink
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alicelillie on Jan 3, 2007 12:28 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women who go know what the risks are and weigh the pros and cons. They know there is a risk. There is a risk in staying home too; the roof could fall in.
The individual decides.
Having said that, anyone who perpetrates a crime is responsible for that crime. The person against whom the crime is committed is blameless.
We all have a free will. Life is risky, so you decide the risks you are willing to take, and someone who commits violence should suffer the consequences. To outlaw the women from going to the club would be wrong, and to let a criminal off the hook would also be wrong.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO STOP PROTECTING US FROM OURSELVES?
Posted by: Jill
» RE: WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO STOP PROTECTING US FROM OURSELVES?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Madam Hatter on Jan 3, 2007 2:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: faultroy on Jan 3, 2007 7:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This demonstrates that Alternet readers are getting the idea that much of the Feminist Left's published information is inaccurate, thoroughly dishonest and misleading.
Until Feminism-- as practised in the United States-- unshackles itself from the clutches of its histrionic, male-gender bashing bigoted leadership it has no real legitimacy as a viable social movement.
There are enough reader comments about the inadequacy and bias by the author to not comment further on them, but I'll address a few points that have not been brought to light.
The sad demise of Jennifer Moore as she was walking on the West Side Hwy of Manhattan was not just as a result of drinking and being exploited by men, but rather the fact that this woman was so incredibly drunk that she was not capable of processing any information. One wonders if she was with friends and why they let her become so intoxicated and why they did not assist her.
I have driven the West Side Hwy at night, and I wouldn't walk that road with two pit bulls and a sawed off shotgun.
She was not killed by a man, but by a very sick homicidal maniac--and that, in everyone's eyes but this feminist author's, is a substantial difference.
The author's citation of 90,000 rapes is somewhat inaccurate. This number is publicized based on a statistical sampling of college students nationwide that reported drinking 5 more more drinks on a given occasion within a 30 day period.
The study indicates that women are much more in danger of sexual assault when one or both parties are intoxicated. Normal social mores and defenses are lowered and people quite frankly loose perspective. Furthermore, the study indicates that the women responding and allegedly assaulted were also drinking.
The problem is that the author cites this to be rape, whereas the actual study indicates some form a "sexual assault (which could be as little as unwanted attention) to actual rape" was reported on the questionaire.
Because of the highly politicized nature of Rape and its misuse in the USA, we are not sure if the subjective definition that the women filling out the questionaires have, coincides with the legal definition of rape and or sexual assault as per the US Penal Code.
In order for this study to have direct validity, one would need to query the responders and clarify that their definition of sexual assault was indeed consistent with the legal definition of sexual assault and rape as per the penal code. Let us keep in mind that the study does not indicate that these women ever filed any charges and therefore leads me to suspect the inaccuracy of these comments. The study indirectly implies that no charges were filed against these "alleged rapists."
In addition, my research in finding this data, indicates that of the 5,709,00 college women between the ages of 18-24 that this number is extracted from: 97,000 are projected as having been sexually assaulted or date raped. This, according to the authors of the study, represents only 2 per cent of the total number of negative experiences cited by these drunk people in the study.
Two per cent is a very small number and when put in this context certainly changes the flavor and nature of the argument.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Daaaaamn...
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LizFunk on Jan 3, 2007 9:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the response to this article is simultaneously very encouraging and also very disheartening. I think the varied responses are very indicative of what third wave feminism is. We bring all different approaches to feminism: sex-positive, anti-exploitation, egalitarian, protectionist, gentle, angry, didactic, feverish, positive, negative, educated, and, well, not. And we all read into articles in different ways so that we feel satisfied.
While I really don’t want to (and don’t have the time to) get involved with some of the angry bloggers’ generally-unfounded (and mostly vengeful) complaints, there are a couple things to point out:
News articles don’t always reflect what their writers say. Maureen Dowd started her career covering sports and eventually went on to politics; did she have opinions about what she was writing? Who knows? But no one put words in her mouth using articles she had written in the past on nearly unrelated topics to justify their assumptions.
If I wanted to write a really strident piece about how I feel clubs exploit women and how I feel that pertains to women’s sexuality, the team of editors at Women’s eNews would have classified it as a commentary, and it would have looked nothing like the article eventually published on AlterNet. I’m actually a big advocate of abandoning the drinking age and I have a relatively liberal approach to sexuality. And I’m the only one who can state my opinions for me.
Also, a word about publishing: it’s tough to generalize about what a writer “means” from an article that is thoroughly edited (especially at Women’s eNews, where three different editors critique each article before it is published) because editors often have much more say in how an article turns out than the writer does. And writers generally have little to no say (in my case) over the title of the said article they wrote.
I think the malice in regards to this article is reflective of the sad truth of feminism that we’ve hashed out over and over; women—even feminist women—seem quick to tear other apart, especially when they feel threatened. This is by no means to say that I haven’t participated in this bashing, but I think the success of the November 2006 elections said something on the value of cooperating with people you aren’t crazy about rather than wasting entire days trying to tear them down.
I trust that the feminist movement can work itself out (or maybe it won't? Maybe we should have a hug fest! Let’s all kiss and make up!), and I owe the greatest gratitude to the people who support and have faith in this eighteen year old with big ideas. Haha...
Now, this arguing is more tired than Britney Spears on New Year’s Eve… let’s move on.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Liz, don't you get it?
Posted by: H_H
» By the way...
Posted by: H_H
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir on Jan 4, 2007 11:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second of all, learn to take criticism.
Third of all, I belive I'll be writing to some of your publishers.
Thanks, kiddo.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Composidore on Jan 4, 2007 12:08 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Jan 5, 2007 10:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are writings articles designed to strike a nerve with the reader.
What better way to impress your boss than have a massive response to an article you wrote?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: garyjminter on Jan 31, 2007 8:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Legalization is long overdue in the USA! That's another reason why I voted for Ralph Nader for President, in addition to his firm opposition to the US invasion of Iraq---Nader is the only well-known candidate with the balls to support legalization of marijuana!
Gary
(Gary J. Minter)
http://aidsvillagechina.blog.sohu.com
www.healthchina.org
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drblack on Jan 2, 2007 12:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People often do dumb things. One can hope they will not be hurt by their actions.
These days you see the media glorifying talentless and stupid women (and men)going to bars and dancing some pretty provocative dances...perhaps yopung people in general should work on their minds and talents instead.
Young people have done silly things forever.
Their should be a way for anyone who has drank too much to get a free ride home. Drunk driving is a transportation problem.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: are they being forced?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rsaxto on Jan 2, 2007 1:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: sleazy
Posted by: ryazbeck
» RE: sleazy
Posted by: laoma
» RE: sleazy
Posted by: Poe
» Love It Or Leave It?
Posted by: ignition
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ryazbeck on Jan 2, 2007 2:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where I see that it is getting to the point that is it becoming disturbing is in Austin, TX specifically on 6th street where a great number of ~21-26 year old college students spend many of their Thursday - Saturday night escapades. Not only are women encouraged to become as intoxicated as possible, without passing out or puking, but the guys are aggressive, plastered and horny as all hell, and they will stop at almost nothing to put their hands on or get inside of any remotely attractive female even when the female is obviously not available. I've become quite perturbed by the scene and have recently not been visiting that area (has been several months since my last visit).
It even occurs in the more upscale areas of Austin's downtown area such as the 5th street area where you have the 24 - 40ish crowd who have graduated and are actively pursuing their careers and yet the mentality and attitude towards women still exists, but is more manipulative and subtle, in my opinion. The men are more skilled at approaching women, have much more money, and are much more appealing, especially to the naive female.
I don't really see an end to this type of behavior so the only effective solution I can provide for my female friends is to be extremely careful or to avoid the situation altogether. These females in these situations must also be responsible for themselves, they are choosing to consume multiple drinks, they can also choose to not consume them, be self-respectable, meet people, and still have a good time. In my opinion the universal solution to situations like this is not strict regulation, like the American government thinks is always the best for us, but rather education on responsible drinking and "bar-style-survival skills" such as effective communication with friends, sticking together and watching out for each other and their actions.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 2, 2007 2:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The trick is to dress up like a girl, get in free, then change to your regular clothes once you get inside...Not that I've ever tried that...Not even once.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Suckers
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Suckers
Posted by: bluestatehorses
» RE: Suckers
Posted by: garyjminter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Fantasyartist on Jan 2, 2007 3:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SufiLizard on Jan 2, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Young men and women have always been a bit ego-centric and shallow, and to a certain extent, I think it's perfectly normal - if not always "healthy."
But as with most things, we seem to take it to excess.
I remember in my active bar-scene days back in the '90s we used to walk past a couple of nightclubs with lines around the block of people willing to wait up to two hours to get in and listen to crappy "pop" music while we could go hear the best band in town for just a $2 or $3 cover and no wait.
I had raging hormones too, but there was a limit to what I would endure to try to appease them.
Anyway, a lot of this is just the nature of youth. I'm not real anxious to encourage government intervention of people's personal choices -- although we should certainly enforce the laws we have that regulate the appropriate ages for admission to bars. And we, as a society, should try to make it as safe as possible for these people to get home.
The rest, I think is a cultural issue. We need a stronger sense of responsiblity and community so people look after one another a little bit. I was lucky to have good friends who weren't afraid to intervene if they thought you were about to do something stupid.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MAD on Jan 2, 2007 6:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all know that men are idiots (in case this article didn't convince you) and not to be trusted, so it's clear what needs to be done: a woman, rare flower that she is, must be paternalistically protected and sheltered until the age of 35 when she is mature enough to make wise decisions on her own. Until such time, 18-34 year-old women are simply too young to be doing things by themselves. I would offer this suggestion. Any female under the age of 35 must be accompanied by a male relative everywhere she goes. What do you think?
In all seriousness, I don't know what struck me as more idiotic. This story or the fact that America is still so backward that we are allowed to consume alcohol only after age 21. It's too bad these girls are imbibing at bars and clubs because we all know that alcohol is not otherwise available to those under the age of 21 - ever!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: H_H on Jan 2, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Damn, that's diabolical. Enslaving women by giving them free drinks? How nefarious can you get?
Next thing you know, giving women free planet tickets to Tahiti will become a new form of torture.
Is there ANYTHING on this planet that doesn't turn women into victims?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Because women have titties they are enslaved in titty bars? Blame it on...?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Because women have titties they are enslaved in titty bars? Blame it on...?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Zenobia on Jan 2, 2007 8:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The larger question, though, is why do so many women not get the TOOLS they need NOT to be victims? Why don't both girls AND boys get the tools they need to treat all their brothers and sisters with dignity and respect?
We recognize that in order for people to be responsible voters, they need to learn to read and how to learn to analyze media sources. They need access to reliable media/information, and they need to feel empowered enough to believe that their involvement in the civic process matters.
Likewise, for girls and women to choose--as active agents not victims--how to make smart choices and how to recognize when they are being exploited, they need to learn how to read situations and how to analyze the media sources that try to brainwash them into being products for someone else to get rich. They need access to strong, self-aware role models as they form their identities. They need to be empowered enough to realize that they do not have to follow pack-herd mentality to have worth.
Maybe if girls and young women were innundated with as many images of females as astronauts, professors, heads of socially responsible companies making a difference, contemplative poets, and athletes celebrated for their ability rather than for their ability to turn shallow men's heads---
--as they were innundated with images of bimbos jiggling for male approval,
they would think about themselves a little differently, and make more empowered choices. Likewise, maybe boys would treat young women like something other than the sex objects they see everywhere, conditioning them to think of all "girls" as hunks of meat.
Girls need to speak up and assert themselves against their own exploitation for the situation to ever change, and I applaud Liz for being one of those who has the guts to do it. That is how you say NO to being a victim and YES to being empowered.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» victim victim victim
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Zenobia
Posted by: peckwood
Comments are closed-
Posted by: arclight on Jan 2, 2007 8:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
18+ for women, 21+ for men.
That's illegal.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Lawsuit!
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Lawsuit!
Posted by: Phenix
» Sign up for selective service!
Posted by: DataDoc
» RE: I never understood how sex discrimination was legal.
Posted by: garyjminter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jackofalltrades on Jan 2, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rampant STD's, cervical cancer, genital warts, abortions and disemboweled women are a small price to pay for the right of older males to enjoy these girl-children.
There is only one surprise here, and that is that they don't pay these female pimps to haul in fresh females from the age of twelve. Could this help but raise club revenue? Let us hope this oversight will soon be rectified.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WHO SAYS WE DON'T HAVE LEGAL PROSTITUTION?
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: WHO SAYS WE DON'T HAVE LEGAL PROSTITUTION?
Posted by: Wacre
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kathat on Jan 2, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The flyers talk about a plan a action like never leaving someone alone when you go home, never leaving a drink unattended, etc....They have since moved but every city they go to they repeat the message.
I think women of all ages should see that this type of action occurs wherever they see this type of behavior.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jan 2, 2007 10:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: So what are you proposing?
Posted by: Sushi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: activist on Jan 2, 2007 10:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm afraid that far too many women -- young or old -- remain at risk even after they "get back home"
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Until they get back home...
Posted by: browngoddess
» RE: Until they get back home...
Posted by: karoblink
Comments are closed-
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jan 2, 2007 11:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) lower alcohol drinking age to reasonable levels.
2) stop promoting sex as 'evil' or 'bad'
3) legalise prostitution
4) recognise that sex is fun and can be separate from marriage, long-term relationship, and procreation.
5) stop criticising other people and let them persue happiness in their own way.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Puritanism of the 'left'
Posted by: AlphaHusky
» RE: Puritanism of the 'left'
Posted by: MAD
» No, YOU get real...
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Puritanism of the 'left'
Posted by: Izzy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ladyoracle on Jan 2, 2007 12:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But women can take advantage of the offers without becoming victims. And men can find other clubs with gender-neutral drink specials and covers.
In my years of clubbing (and I look like a Barbie), I've never been come onto by a guy who pressured me, or even attempted to pressure me into anything beyond perhaps a pathetic attempt because he had nothing to loose. Sometimes after being refused they call me a name, but, whatever. That's part of bar and clubbing culture. The time I was slipped the date rape drug, yeah that guy was a friend, not a stranger.
Now, what I thought this article would be about is how clubs pay some women to be there, not as servers, but just to be there. I was offered a "job" like that and turned it down. That kind of situation does place the women at risk for harassment that would practically be part of her contract.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Thank you. I thought that the double-edge of "women-as-victims" had been ok'd by feminists. But...
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Thank you. I thought that the double-edge of "women-as-victims" had been ok'd by feminists. But.
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir on Jan 2, 2007 1:15 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THIS ARTICLE IS BULLSHIT. Straight out. Period. Did she even talk to any promoters? Fucking garbage.
Free for ladies, pay for guys: Believe it or not, this is so that you don't get too many drunk, horny men in one place. The more drunken guys you have, the more problems the bouncers have. Look, no club owner or promoter wants to get sued for something, and they're not sitting there thinking, "OOOOH! Let's get some young sluts in here, get them drunk, and pass them to the guys!!!" Bitch, please.
Age difference: Guys are seen as being less mature that the girls. Once again, you don't want unruly, young assholes in clubs. A three-year age gap usually evens this out.
18 and over vs. 21+: 21+ is what most promoters go for, simply because they don't want the liability, or the fines, of possibly underage drinking. 18+ parties are seen by many to be tacky and childish.
Girl "promoters": They make a pretty good number per head to get thier friends in the door. And, uh, women have female and male friends. Bottle service is more expensive, but you get a table, a room to yourself, interesting guests, privates DJs, etc. Also, one bottle can make about 15 drinks, which is worth it in NYC. They also give unlimited mixers and soda, because NOT EVERYONE DRINKS. And there are male promoters, too.
Wanting to get pretty girls into a club: This is wrong because...? Oh, right. Us attractive women are supposed to be attractive in the privacy of our own homes! We can't be confident in ourselves, yet like appreciation from a guy. That's right. How unfeminist of me!
Women getting ridiculously drunk: Hey, you're 21. Even if the shit's free, cut yourself off. No one's holding a bottle to your lips. Use some goddamn responsibility. If you know you're heading home late, be sensible and watch what you do!!!!! Crime is awful, but you have to not be making yourself a walking target, either. I'm not saying that crime is the victim's fault at all, but it certainly is yanking the tiger's tail if you walk out alone, sexily dressed, smashed to the gills through Bushwick at 4 AM.
ALTERNET, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!?!?! I think this article just pushed you guys past freaking Freeperville in the prudishness category. Why would you post an article that has so little balanced reporting!??!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: H_H
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Scientz
» Also...
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Also...
Posted by: Phenix
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Izzy
» RE: WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?!!?
Posted by: Composidore
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ghoulman on Jan 2, 2007 2:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: The new youth culture
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: The new youth culture
Posted by: Ghoulman
» RE: The new youth culture
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fiskhus on Jan 2, 2007 3:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As soon as ignorant Americans stop being so loudly approving of the very criminals who are stealing their tax dollars, we may be able to inject some morality into the business atmosphere.
But until Americans, as a voting bloc, vote for morality, it will be difficult. Too bad all those fundamentalist and evangelicals are NOT real Christians; too bad they don't care about real morality - too bad they only care about maintaining their "right" to kill some poor mother's son for their own profit.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lrhamelin on Jan 2, 2007 6:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sex is dirty, horrible and disgusting
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Sex is dirty, horrible and disgusting
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DataDoc on Jan 2, 2007 7:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Jan 2, 2007 7:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If they tried that in Australia, the bar owners would be in court on discrimination charges so fast their heads would spin.
A club here in Melbourne just recently advertised a Christmas party in which women wearing bikinis were going to be given free drinks.
They never had a hope - the club was made to cancel the bikini idea.
bikini booze-up
And in whose bizarre (p)universe is _20_ considered underage?
Jeezuz - if you can vote at 18 and drive at 18 and be sent off to be ripped to shreds in Iraq at 18, married to your cousin at 12 and have umpteen kids by 16, you should be able to DRINK at 18...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: WOW - thanks for that absolutely fascinating tidbit Kim!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» no aussie bashing please
Posted by: jo5ef.k
» RE: no aussie bashing please
Posted by: Aussie Kim
Comments are closed-
Posted by: karoblink on Jan 2, 2007 10:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The message and implication of the article was; women who go to bars and drink alcohol are putting themselves at risk for rape, period. I am astounded that a feminist website would be so irresponsible by reinforcing these rape myths.
I am a volunteer sexual abuse crisis counselor, and I can not tell you how many times women have been assaulted and blame themselves because they were at a bar drinking and felt that they were somehow responsible. Additionally, because fear of being blamed is common, the decision for a victim to report a sexual assault becomes more difficult. Ms. Funk's article only will confirm these fears by erroneously placing the fault onto to the victim.
The “blame the victim” rhetoric is over; efforts need to be made for men (especially young boys) in creating a more positive attitude towards women. This is a very difficult task, however, reinforcing rape myths and posting them on a website for women to read sets back the sexual assault movement decades.
This article will do nothing but provide a disservice to women.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: karoblink
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: H_H
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
» RE: Susannah
Posted by: karoblink
Comments are closed-
Posted by: alicelillie on Jan 3, 2007 12:28 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women who go know what the risks are and weigh the pros and cons. They know there is a risk. There is a risk in staying home too; the roof could fall in.
The individual decides.
Having said that, anyone who perpetrates a crime is responsible for that crime. The person against whom the crime is committed is blameless.
We all have a free will. Life is risky, so you decide the risks you are willing to take, and someone who commits violence should suffer the consequences. To outlaw the women from going to the club would be wrong, and to let a criminal off the hook would also be wrong.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO STOP PROTECTING US FROM OURSELVES?
Posted by: Jill
» RE: WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO STOP PROTECTING US FROM OURSELVES?
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Madam Hatter on Jan 3, 2007 2:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: faultroy on Jan 3, 2007 7:48 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This demonstrates that Alternet readers are getting the idea that much of the Feminist Left's published information is inaccurate, thoroughly dishonest and misleading.
Until Feminism-- as practised in the United States-- unshackles itself from the clutches of its histrionic, male-gender bashing bigoted leadership it has no real legitimacy as a viable social movement.
There are enough reader comments about the inadequacy and bias by the author to not comment further on them, but I'll address a few points that have not been brought to light.
The sad demise of Jennifer Moore as she was walking on the West Side Hwy of Manhattan was not just as a result of drinking and being exploited by men, but rather the fact that this woman was so incredibly drunk that she was not capable of processing any information. One wonders if she was with friends and why they let her become so intoxicated and why they did not assist her.
I have driven the West Side Hwy at night, and I wouldn't walk that road with two pit bulls and a sawed off shotgun.
She was not killed by a man, but by a very sick homicidal maniac--and that, in everyone's eyes but this feminist author's, is a substantial difference.
The author's citation of 90,000 rapes is somewhat inaccurate. This number is publicized based on a statistical sampling of college students nationwide that reported drinking 5 more more drinks on a given occasion within a 30 day period.
The study indicates that women are much more in danger of sexual assault when one or both parties are intoxicated. Normal social mores and defenses are lowered and people quite frankly loose perspective. Furthermore, the study indicates that the women responding and allegedly assaulted were also drinking.
The problem is that the author cites this to be rape, whereas the actual study indicates some form a "sexual assault (which could be as little as unwanted attention) to actual rape" was reported on the questionaire.
Because of the highly politicized nature of Rape and its misuse in the USA, we are not sure if the subjective definition that the women filling out the questionaires have, coincides with the legal definition of rape and or sexual assault as per the US Penal Code.
In order for this study to have direct validity, one would need to query the responders and clarify that their definition of sexual assault was indeed consistent with the legal definition of sexual assault and rape as per the penal code. Let us keep in mind that the study does not indicate that these women ever filed any charges and therefore leads me to suspect the inaccuracy of these comments. The study indirectly implies that no charges were filed against these "alleged rapists."
In addition, my research in finding this data, indicates that of the 5,709,00 college women between the ages of 18-24 that this number is extracted from: 97,000 are projected as having been sexually assaulted or date raped. This, according to the authors of the study, represents only 2 per cent of the total number of negative experiences cited by these drunk people in the study.
Two per cent is a very small number and when put in this context certainly changes the flavor and nature of the argument.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Daaaaamn...
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LizFunk on Jan 3, 2007 9:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the response to this article is simultaneously very encouraging and also very disheartening. I think the varied responses are very indicative of what third wave feminism is. We bring all different approaches to feminism: sex-positive, anti-exploitation, egalitarian, protectionist, gentle, angry, didactic, feverish, positive, negative, educated, and, well, not. And we all read into articles in different ways so that we feel satisfied.
While I really don’t want to (and don’t have the time to) get involved with some of the angry bloggers’ generally-unfounded (and mostly vengeful) complaints, there are a couple things to point out:
News articles don’t always reflect what their writers say. Maureen Dowd started her career covering sports and eventually went on to politics; did she have opinions about what she was writing? Who knows? But no one put words in her mouth using articles she had written in the past on nearly unrelated topics to justify their assumptions.
If I wanted to write a really strident piece about how I feel clubs exploit women and how I feel that pertains to women’s sexuality, the team of editors at Women’s eNews would have classified it as a commentary, and it would have looked nothing like the article eventually published on AlterNet. I’m actually a big advocate of abandoning the drinking age and I have a relatively liberal approach to sexuality. And I’m the only one who can state my opinions for me.
Also, a word about publishing: it’s tough to generalize about what a writer “means” from an article that is thoroughly edited (especially at Women’s eNews, where three different editors critique each article before it is published) because editors often have much more say in how an article turns out than the writer does. And writers generally have little to no say (in my case) over the title of the said article they wrote.
I think the malice in regards to this article is reflective of the sad truth of feminism that we’ve hashed out over and over; women—even feminist women—seem quick to tear other apart, especially when they feel threatened. This is by no means to say that I haven’t participated in this bashing, but I think the success of the November 2006 elections said something on the value of cooperating with people you aren’t crazy about rather than wasting entire days trying to tear them down.
I trust that the feminist movement can work itself out (or maybe it won't? Maybe we should have a hug fest! Let’s all kiss and make up!), and I owe the greatest gratitude to the people who support and have faith in this eighteen year old with big ideas. Haha...
Now, this arguing is more tired than Britney Spears on New Year’s Eve… let’s move on.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Liz, don't you get it?
Posted by: H_H
» By the way...
Posted by: H_H
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmeetoilenoir on Jan 4, 2007 11:49 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second of all, learn to take criticism.
Third of all, I belive I'll be writing to some of your publishers.
Thanks, kiddo.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Composidore on Jan 4, 2007 12:08 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Jan 5, 2007 10:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are writings articles designed to strike a nerve with the reader.
What better way to impress your boss than have a massive response to an article you wrote?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: garyjminter on Jan 31, 2007 8:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Legalization is long overdue in the USA! That's another reason why I voted for Ralph Nader for President, in addition to his firm opposition to the US invasion of Iraq---Nader is the only well-known candidate with the balls to support legalization of marijuana!
Gary
(Gary J. Minter)
http://aidsvillagechina.blog.sohu.com
www.healthchina.org
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Vancouver's Games Will Be the Gayest Olympics Ever
Trial Begins for Activist Who Fought to Protect Federal Lands from Drilling -- Join the Protest
Starbucks' Cop-Out to Gun Nuts: Customers Served Coffee While Strapped




