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Mel Gibson Is Wrong about Who the Violent Americans Are

By Roberto Lovato, New America Media. Posted December 16, 2006.


The new movie Apocalypto should have left the Maya alone and instead looked for apocalyptic violence in the off-screen history of the Catholic-mestizo families of the Americas.

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After watching Mel Gibson’s controversial film Apocalypto, I left the theater pondering the history of racism, pillage and apocalyptic war through my own blood and family history. Gibson, I concluded, would have been more accurate, his film more resonant, had he used another group of people, another culture – certainly not the Maya -- to depict his vision of the Apocalyse.

Like many Central Americans born and categorized as mestizos (mixed Indian and Spanish blood), I watched Apocalypto as someone who consciously revered the Maya and other indigenous groups while subconsciously prohibiting himself any real identification with them.

As a boy, my parents gave me a leather case with a picture of an Indian from the region now known as El Salvador (the Savior). But I heard my father call people he considered ugly “cara de indio” (Indian face). For many of us--mestizo and non-mestizo alike--it’s always been easier to identify with the Christian culture depicted in Gibson’s film The Passion of the Christ than with the Maya culture in Apocalypto.

The fundamental problem with Apocalypto’s depiction of Maya culture is that, in a procrustean manner, it imposes violence and an apocalyptic world view on the wrong people. In fact, UC Riverside archaeologist Zachary X. Hruby wrote recently in the San Francisco Chronicle: “There exists no archaeological, historic or ethnohistoric data to suggest that any such mass sacrifices -- numbering in the thousands, or even hundreds -- took place in the Maya world.”

Instead, Gibson should have looked for apocalyptic war and culture in the off-screen history of our Catholic, mestizo, and indigenous families in the Americas.

He could have done his homework about how Salvadoran culture sanctions my father’s use of “cara de indio” as a way to call someone ‘ugly.’ I never understood the deeper reasons for such racist remarks until my father told me what happened when he was a ten-year-old boy who climbed trees in 1932. That year, my father saw military men kill hundreds of Indians in what historians call “La Matanza” or the Killing. More than 30,000 mostly Indian peasants in El Salvador were slaughtered on the order of General Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, a theosophist military dictator who used radio broadcasts to justify his actions by sowing apocalyptic fear. Most of the killing my father witnessed took place not far from where the fictional killing fields of Apocalypto take place. Until I asked him about it, my father remained quiet about La Matanza for more than 65 years. The fear of Indians and apocalyptic war he learned while climbing trees as a boy stayed with him and spilled onto his kids through what some psychologists call “intergenerational trauma.”

It saddens me that the first big screen depiction of the inspired and inspiring culture of the Maya is this fatally inaccurate and very controversial film. Like the traumatized boy who became my father, millions among the current generations of Mayan, Guatemalan, Salvadoran and other Central American youth growing up in the United States and other countries are the children of apocalyptic war survivors. Most have experienced the numbing cultural effects of war; either firsthand or as the children of those who have witnessed the savagery of wars like the one in Guatemala, where apocalyptic dictator and born-again Pentecostal President Efrain Rios Montt, who famously said, “the true Christian has a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other,” ordered the killing and disappearance of more than 100,000, mostly Mayas. I saw how Montt used television and other media to beam the colorful biblical imagery of his apocalyptic vision as a way to cover over the massacre of innocents. He compared the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to the four contemporary evils of hunger, misery, ignorance and subversion

Apocalypto’s depiction of the Mayas scares in its inaccuracy, but it makes sense when we consider that Gibson’s main audience belongs to a culture that reveres another very conservative actor like him, Ronald Reagan. Reagan introduced the use of media-communication skills and apocalyptic politics to advance a political agenda. He used them to justify the full arming, full funding of and political support for Montt, whom Reagan defended as “getting a bum rap.” In the name of combating “evil” and protecting the “city on a hill,” Reagan infused his foreign and domestic policy with statements like, "we may be the generation that sees Armageddon" and “I don't know if you have noted any of those prophecies lately, but, believe me, they describe the times we are going through." While filmmaker Gibson claims to offer an allegorical critique of the declining, apocalyptic civilization that feeds wars like the one in Iraq, Gibson the extreme right-wing Catholic, anti-Semite fails in Apocalypto and in all his movies to critique the very religion that has dominated apocalyptic politics for centuries.

Better than most, Gibson knows that Apocalypse sells in a culture in which born-again politicos, best-sellers like the Left Behind books and blockbuster movies like his Mad Max series or Arnold Schwarzenegger’s End of Days and the Terminator trilogy plug into the cultural and political DNA of this country, whose Puritan founders came here prepared for the end of days with Bibles and 20-ton cannons crammed into their ships.

My identity, in part, has been shaped by the effects of a culture of violence and apocalyptic war best found not so much in the stuff of Gibson’s Mayan epic, Apocalypto, but in the stuff of his Christian epic, The Passion of the Christ

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Roberto Lovato lives in New York and works for New America Media.

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No proof of Maya cruelty?
Posted by: Swatopluk on Dec 16, 2006 2:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess Mel overdid it again and was more inspired by the Aztecs than the Maya. But have you looked at the actual Maya mural paintings? There are extremly nasty ones that show that the Maya were not the peaceful people they were thought to be in the past.

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» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty? Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: No proof of Maya cruelty? Posted by: rhinojos
» Hell in Mayan culture Posted by: vangogh69
Ironic
Posted by: Intraspecto on Dec 16, 2006 2:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ironic that a man who so greatly supports the most reviled religious institution in history (one that holds enormous numbers of child-molesters in its ranks, has killed more people than all modern war combined, and makes no sense in terms of following "Christianity") has made a violent blood thirsty movie about a violent and blood thirsty culture that his voilent and blood thirsty religion destroyed....

While they were certainly NOT peaceful, it is funny to see a Catholic try to "redeem the faith" by making the victim of Catholic greed and ambition look like the evil party in question.

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» RE: Ironic Posted by: mythbuster
» RE: Ironic Posted by: VHunter
This must be a moviemaking fundamental they teach in cinema school.
Posted by: Merchant_Of_Menace on Dec 16, 2006 2:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that, whenever I go to the cinema, most of the time I just see somebody confusing religious fervor with nationalism.

Maybe this is what has been going on in American society? A hardline evangelical bloc advocating a return to the days of a church-state, where patriotism is obedience to a diety (or multiple dieties, depending on which religious fundies are in power).

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Encultured entertainment
Posted by: peachmcd on Dec 16, 2006 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One interesting pattern I've noticed in film reviews (even in otherwise 'independent' or 'progressive' press) goes like this:

On one hand, critics give high marks to movies with an essentially right-wing ideology at their base while carefully distancing themselves from the ideology(Independence Day, Apocalypto...). On the other hand, they'll applaud the ideals behind movies with an essentially left-wing ideology at base and then shred the movie itself (Fahrenheit 9/11, Syriana).

I've noticed this pattern for years now. You can win bets on it. What it means is less clear. I doubt there's a critical cabal that decrees such things. My hypothesis is that Americans have been so deeply enculturated with the values of violence, domination (sexual and political), revenge, and avarice that we can't help but respond viscerally to vicarious enjoyment of them on the big screen. Meanwhile, we respond with boredom and discomfort to films that reject those 'American' values, consciously critique them, or portray a different vision.

What think ye all?

Peach in Durham NC

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» RE: ncultured entertainment Posted by: xenacat
» RE: ncultured entertainment Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: ncultured entertainment Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: ncultured entertainment Posted by: kittynboi
» RE: ncultured entertainment Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: cultured entertainment Posted by: Iconoclast421
"cara de indio"
Posted by: axandrade on Dec 16, 2006 7:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What you describe as cara de indio is something that I have seen throughout Latin America as it struggles with its Indian heritage after 500 years of Colonization by white people. These white people put themselves at the top of every Latin American society and created a racialized social structure where white was simply better. Not only that, but it wasn't just an indigenous racism like in the United States where white was better. In Latin America, white AND foreign (European and later to some extent from the US) became the paramount of humanity. So the kind of society that formed is very conflicted, you have a lighter skinned elite with a huge inferiority complex that wishes it were part of the global elite, but knows it can never achieve it. To compensate, it tries to differentiate itself from the rest, darker people, through things like cara de indio. That effect trickles down through the innumerable shades of brown, each trying to justify its brownness by putting down those that are darker. I am speaking of the culturally western Latin Americans, I would make an exception for the proud indigenous people that have chosen to maintain their own culture, despite being put at the bottom of the white scale. I feel like this vision of Latin America explains a lot of its failures.

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» RE: "cara de indio" Posted by: Betsyny
» RE: "cara de indio" Posted by: rhinojos
Author is accurate. Mexicans are very violent.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Dec 16, 2006 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author is accurate and correct. The mestizos, the majority of the citizens of Mexico, are a very violent people. Some examples of LEGAL 'entertainment' in Mexico are very bloody bullfights, dog fights, and cock fights. They also have an extreme amount of violence related to drug cartels and both the federal and state police forces are known to be be abusive of citizens and criminals alike. There also is an undercurrent of racism in Mexico towards black people (the issued a national stamp with a characticuture of a 'negro' on it a couple years ago and a favourite character in the "La Lotteria" game is "El Negrito"- a black livered midget.) Of course, Mexico is a country in which a woman "has her place" in the home with many children and spousal abuse is not uncommon. Worse is the rampant killings of women and girls in border towns that the police won't/can't solve. Thousands have gone missing or been found dead and/or tortured. They don't know if its drug gangs, santeria cults (again), serial killer(s), or just guys out 'looking for fun'. Lastly Mexico condones forced prostitution in the legal brothels, including acts of amazing perversions. America has many problems of its own (violence, racism, environmental) why we need need to import a people with even worse problems?

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» Who are you, you America hater? Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: albrechtkrausse is WRONG Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Sure I can debate you! Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: ebuttal to albrechtkrausse Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: ebuttal to albrechtkrausse Posted by: wereallfukked
Good article
Posted by: helenwheels on Dec 16, 2006 7:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And a glimpse into some South American history I know nothing about. The comments here are also very interesting. The violence crammed down the U.S. gullet on a daily basis is staggering, indeed. Thanks for the insight, author & commenters!

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» RE: Good article Posted by: JERSEYDAN
Its the old bait and switch, still alive and kicking!
Posted by: philobat on Dec 16, 2006 7:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether or not the Maya were peaceful or savage, the fact remains the same. WHO CARES! They are long gone and the sad fact that a bloody gore fest like Apocalypto has to be shoved in our faces is, in this day and age, totally disgusting.

Hitler gets the shaft to this day for being one of the bloodiest, savage and most insane rulers (which he was), but lest we forget, Stalin and Lenin who killed many many more millions in their torterous Gulags.

The fact is humans are vile cruel, greedy, blame shifting, religion touting boobs who just cannot seem to accept one another for who we are.

I say Kill religion and end all this bloodshed once and for all. Its just all so stupid and all Mel Gibson did was show us that we haven't learned a damn thing yet, at least not as far as the governing body of society goes.

I would rather have dinner and a conversation with Adolf Hitler over George Bush, just to find out what he said to the Pope to get the Vatican to sanction his T-4 experiments (the sanctioned deaths that began the Holocaust). And it would not surprise me if it was revealed to me that it was the Vatican's idea all along.

All this finger pointing is boring, as is racisim and bigotry...So has anyone one seen Happy Feet?

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» Dingo, you are so darned cute! Posted by: philobat
» Conspiracy Theories Abound! Posted by: VHunter
Religions are the root of evil
Posted by: justAnEgg on Dec 16, 2006 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a newcomer to America, I'm astonished how many young people enjoy horror movies, for instance. Brutal violence is deeply in American culture, eroding the society ostensibly built on christian love. Violence is commercialized, self-perpetuating but I don't know what's the hen and what's the egg between christianity and commercialization of violence, since religions had been peddled for ages. I think secularization of the society is the only solution to the problem. My example might be a good illustration: I'm an atheist, and I didn't want to see either The Passion" or "Apocalypto", knowing that they're both primarily about violence. (When a friend asked me if I saw "The Passion", I replied that I don't watch horror movies.)

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» American culture is violent Posted by: vangogh69
» That's absolute BS Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: That's absolute BS? Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: That's absolute BS? Posted by: ISlamIslam
» Hello Egg! Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Hello Egg! Posted by: justAnEgg
greenguy
Posted by: ossie on Dec 16, 2006 8:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear of Violent acts,all the time.I live in S,CA.not far from L.A>Some Violence acts,are so unprovekd,so Stupid and incrediable.I have come to the conclusion that these people are or may be inbred two times over?If inbreeding affects the body,why not the mined??Go easy on me I'm just asking.

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» greenguy Posted by: ossie
» INBREEDING and violence... Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: greenguy Posted by: Basenjis
izquerdista, your posting was right on.
Posted by: symcokid on Dec 16, 2006 10:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bravo isquerdista, you told it like it was and is, truer words were never spoken. The USofA has all the answers, that's why they have their nose stuck in the affairs of practically every country on the planet. As an example, just look at how they have disrupted everything in Iraq and elsewhere, they are the prime reason for most of the turmoil throughout the world.

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» You said it! Posted by: werewolf
» Humans to blame Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Humans to blame: YogiBear Posted by: Basenjis
Sounds like a good idea for a movie/documentary
Posted by: CardiacRN on Dec 16, 2006 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The authors idea sounds like something that should be explored. I think it would be safe to bet that most people in North America have heard little or nothing about this.

On the other hand, who is he to tell someone else what movie he should make? If you want to make a movie start doing the work, don't sit back and piss and moan about how someone else should do it for you.

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» BOYCOTT.... Posted by: Cathyc
A tiny mistake
Posted by: earthlingtn on Dec 16, 2006 10:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good story, but since the issue is historical accuracy the author should not exaggerate by saying that the Puritans came to America with "20-ton cannons crammed into their ships." Even a century later, the very largest British cannons -- even in the big European land wars -- were still only 4 tons.

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AZETECS, NOT MAYANS!!
Posted by: AlohaTerry on Dec 16, 2006 11:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Mel Gibson had done the least amount of Homework, he could have easily transformed the Azetecs as the race maurading their neighboring Provinces for Slaves/ Human Sacrafice...the Mayans, though not without some Human Sacrafice during the Decline of their Dominance, were vastly intelligent, and for the most part Peaceful and Agrarian.
That being said, even the Cruelty of the Azetecs pales in comparison with the Spanish Conquistadors, the Class Slavery imposed on the Indigenous Peoples, and the Imperialism, Colonialism, and General Dysfunction of the Whites (including America, which has a LOOOOONG History of Mass Murder in the interests of "Progress" (AKA Corporate GREED!)

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» Europe could have expected Posted by: JERSEYDAN
Mel Gibson
Posted by: Gregor on Dec 16, 2006 12:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mel Gibson's father was a sadistic, anti-semitic individual who beat the crap out of his son and imposed this Catholic imprisonment mentality on him. Instead of looking inward, Mel chooses to send a message of greed, anit-semitism, violence and apocalypse on everyone. Yet everyone still supports Mel Gibson because our culture is a lot like individual Mel Gibson's upbringing. So he is only a symbol and makes movies our culture gobbles up.

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It's only a movie
Posted by: sausage on Dec 16, 2006 2:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And it's fiction.
That being said, however, Mel Gibson engaged Maya archeologist Richard Hansen, known for his work Guatemala's Mirado Basin, as technical advisor for the film.

The current issue of Archaeology Magazine has a short interview with Hansen concerning the filming of Apocalypto.

I'll reproduce a question followed by Hansen's answer, pertinent to Mr. Lovato's above op-ed piece.

"Were the Maya as violent as they are depicted in the movie?
[Hansen] "We know warfare was going on. The Postcalssic center of Tulum is a walled city; these sites had to be in defensive positions. There was tremendous Aztec influence by this time. The Aztecs were clearly ruthless in their conquest and pursuit of sacrificial victims, a practice that spilled over into some of the Maya areas."
(page 16, Archaeology Januarey/February 2007)

Say what you will about Mel Gibson's politics, religion and drunken anti-Semitic outbursts, he is on the board of the Foucation for Anthropological Research and Environmental Studies and is promoting sustainable development for the local people of the Mirado Basin.

Movie violence aside, one of the themes of the film is environmental degradation and how human societies, many times, fall back on superstition and ritual dogma in the face of impending collapse. Overall I enjoyed the film however, the last five or less minutes were highly anachronistic and somewhat spoilt everthing that had come before.

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» RE: It's only a movie Posted by: sausage
» RE: It's only a movie Posted by: sausage
» Weren't the Mayas already gone Posted by: JERSEYDAN
Is this really about Apocalypto?
Posted by: mark on Dec 16, 2006 4:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Gibson the extreme right-wing Catholic, anti-Semite fails in Apocalypto and in all his movies to critique the very religion that has dominated apocalyptic politics for centuries."

Maybe that's not what he was trying to do.

I think the writer started out with a strong desire to criticize Mel, and then built his story around that desire. Not saying any of his facts are wrong, but his prejudices are showing.


oh aaand, movies are movies, and are NEVER beholden to historical reality.

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The film is an allegory; don't take it too seriously.
Posted by: nigredo on Dec 16, 2006 5:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this well written piece seems to ignore that one can just as easily interpret the film as an alegory. Evidence sugests (ie. the quotation at the begining of the movie) that Mr. Gibson was more interested in crafting a tale about how and why even the most complex societies crumble. Much of the film's depictions of the Maya focused on the decadence of Mayan city, the inequity and aparent disregard for the environment (remember how shocked the captives were upon seeing the mass deforestation).
If one focuses too much on the aspects of the film that could be construed as racially offensive he/she looses sight of the film's overall message.
Yes much more violence, bloodshed and oppresion ensued after the arival of Europeans, but the subject of the film was how great societies loose their way, get corrupted from within and then eventually fall vulnerable to outside forces.
Mr. Gibson could have made a study of the Romans, the Babylonians, and countless other empires that have faded into history, but he chose a society in continental Americas to prove a point; that what can occur on the other side of the Atlantic can also occur here. Mr. Gibson has intimated such a message by comparing ( I believe incorrectly) the alleged human sacrifice rituals of the Maya to the wars in Iraq.
Lastly, one cannot be overly critical of Mr. Gibson's depictions of the Maya because almost all films that depict other cultures tend to fall into one of two categories: the over-romanticization of indigenous people and gross objectification. In looking at the film we should focus on the humanization of the protagonist, Jaguar Paw and his drive to return to his family because that is a common factor amongst all humans.

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PROFIT PROFIT!!!!
Posted by: abarbarag on Dec 16, 2006 10:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PROFIT PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!! do you really think this Gibson would take a serious look into the mayan culture ? he already proved violence and blood to be profitable with "The passion..." the saddest of all this is that so much richness of the mayan culture is forever buried with such a movie, with all moviegoers from the US getting out of the cineplex not wanting to know a thing about the maya, and when they travel to the mayan riviera beaches with only sand and sun in mind, all the mayan culture forgotten: their own numeric system, accurate astronomers and architects.....money is the supreme ruler and that´s what Apocalypto runs for

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» RE: PROFIT PROFIT!!!! Posted by: twocreeks
Latin America rises
Posted by: rtdrury on Dec 17, 2006 10:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that with Apocalypto, Gibson is reacting to and trying to incite Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. against the rise of leftist and indigenous Latin America. Exploiting a mass emotion is Hollywood's basic business. The question is how much better off will we be when we achieve mass self-determination such that everyone can recognize such exploits for what they are. Maybe we can look to Latin America for clues.

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Oh no I can be more violent than you, Oh no I can No I...
Posted by: liberal is good on Dec 17, 2006 11:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Posted by: mark on Dec 16, 2006 4:06 PM
"Gibson the extreme right-wing Catholic, anti-Semite fails in Apocalypto and in all his movies to critique the very religion that has dominated apocalyptic politics for centuries."


Violence and propaganda, and brainwashing, yup that's a mix.

You are surprised that Gibson is still blaming everyone but the Christians for the violence anywhere in history? He is a small, delusional man with too much time on his hands too much money. And if current day Americans are as ignorant and easily lead by him as they are politically, well we are in big trouble.
Ignorance is the only thing that allows the rewriting of history, fiction as fact, George Orwell and Aldous Huxley worlds come to life.

Gibson is part of the culture that wishes to rewrite history.
At the least redirect your vision so the truth can not be revealed.

the type of violence he depicts in his movie even if true to that level, is still nothing compared to Christian violence against the Maya, or through out history, can we say Inquisition? The sacrifices that we know of were of a religious nature. To appease the Gods if you will, grow the harvest.
What do we have with the Spanish who arrive and their violence?
It is for self aggrandizement, wealth, gold, conquering and destroying
an indigenous culture.

The quote from President Efrain Rios Montt is so true that “the true Christian has a a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other”. Of course this is nothing to be proud of, more to the point it is a frightening truth and the cause of so much killing and hatred, like “in the name of God.” That is not the privilege for christians only it is for all the big religions, Judaism, and Islam... all have and do Kill in the name of God and to them it is all the justification needed.
But if they followed one quote, in their daily lives all would change,

“What you do to the least of them you do to me”.No matter what master (in this case Jesus) said this it is a lesson for life that all should follow and for Christian’s how convenient that for thousands of years they have ignored this.... a statement from Jesus, whom they say is the be all and end all, and must be followed... unless there’s some land or gold, you might want then we can negotiate.

Gibson could never do an honest, movie of the history of Christians and indigenous people, then he would have to own up to the truth and he and people like him don’t do that. Reality would flood into their fantasy the truth would have to be faced and that will not happen, for they must be right and that comes at big cost to humanity.

His type of Christianity and violence are one in the same, It is their sad history, Christianity and God, that’s not what these people are about

I have to say after reading some of the blogs here, the argument seems to be who was more violent and how to justify that. Because the Maya or Aztecs were a violent people, what the Christians did throughout history is ok? Or because some Muslim extremists have defiled Allah with death and destruction it’s ok for us to get that low.
OR VISA VERSA ..... NO, NO, NO

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So Gibson didn't make the movie you wanted?
Posted by: geoff_canuck on Dec 17, 2006 12:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go make your own movie about the subject of colonial oppression. Or watch one of the many such films already out there. This sort of attack directed at Gibson makes the left look even more rabid than Mel's worst drunken rants. As a secular humanist/atheist/progressive/socialist, I enjoyed this well-crafted work of fiction, with its cautionary environmental message. And by the way, the intentional irony in its closing scene suggests that Gibson is not holding up the Maya as the epitome of violence.

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Into the Looking Glass!!! Mel Gibson's Fantasy World
Posted by: Sinemeh on Dec 17, 2006 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the article by Mr. Lovato was primarily accurate in the objective he attempted to achieve, yet he only needed to summarize his point by one simple psychological phrase: PROJECTION. Meaning, Mel Gibson, and this movie is simply following as Friedrich Nietzsche once wrote:

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Beyond Good and Evil

By placing this movie in its proper historical context; indeed, there has been an unrelenting campain by occultists (Demon invoking, and worshipers) working within the Vatican, such as: the Jesuits, Teutonic Knights, and other Chilvary Orders of the European Royal dynasties, other occultists such as the Skull and Bones, Scroll and Keys societies of Yale, and Scottish Rite Masons, etc. (too many to name) to discredit the cultures of indigenous peoples around the earth for centuries, and this movie is simply follows in this pattern. In fact, these occult societies, with their finance controls the Entertainment industry as a means of mind conditioning, and control of populations. In essence, this film simply is another in the line of pychological projections, of "Western Civilization;" i.e. The Shadow of Jungian psychology, and is no different than the glorification of the terriorist organization, the Ku Klux Clan in the movie A Birth of a Nation which initiated the "Hollywood" era.

Meaning, I by the way live in Guatemala, speak some of one of the indigenous languages related to the Mayan tongue called Quiche, and; likewise, reject the theories of so-called archeologists from most universities, and magazines like the National Geographic who are normally not initiates of the cultures they PROJECT themselves to be experts on. Actually, the so-called "science" of Archeology is deeply rooted in the white supremacy values, norms, and conditions to justify the Colonial invasions of Europeans into the territories of "non-white" peoples worldwide such as in the theories promoted by Gottigen University in Germany; for instance (Read: Black Athena by Martin Bernal).

What should be recognized is the Occultists behind people like Mel Gibson who allow for movies such as his to be financed, and internationally distributed must continue on their centuries long discrediting campaigns because the spiritual systems of the indigenous peoples contain powers which would render the occultists satanic rituals impotent, and; thereby, spiritually empower people from becomming the mind conditioned operative slaves which is the true agenda of these occultists.

Do not waste your time worrying about whether, or not the Mayans practiced Human Sacrifice, or, indeed, whether it was; actually, Capital Punishment, as is any's societies right when its laws are violated. First, learn about the Mayan people's Medicine, their Mathematics, their Social Organization, their Archetecture, their Astrology/Astronomy, their Social Institutions, their Agriculture techniques, their Spiritual/Physics, their Aesthetics, and their Cosmology, and then whatever else not understood would be placed within its proper context, and from a Mayan perspective. Otherwise, you are simply being deceived by people who are well practiced in mass mind control. Maltyox showay.

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» WHITE MAN'S SUPREMACY.... Posted by: Cathyc
It's odd
Posted by: vangogh69 on Dec 17, 2006 2:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That Gibson felt the need to go back and tell a fictionalized story about a society he knows so little about. And to make it such a grand-guignol spectacle? It seems to me like his allegory (which, we must acknowledge, is commendable in that he seems to be directing this warning at the USA, however ostensibly) might have more than a wift of that "savage rogue" stereotype: "See, they were like beasts anyway and their downfall was a good thing...and certainly, their brutal society deserved to die." (I.E. Later-day/Present-day imperialism/occupation/genocide/etc. is justified because the victims are uncivilized/inhumane/non-human/beasts anyway. In the words of Jefferson: "They will kill one of our men, but we shall kill them [natives] all." [sic.]Also, Gibson would do well to read something by Edward Said and see how is depictions can be interpreted as ostensible justifications of present-day imperialism (though I'm giving him WAY too much credit here) and/or genocide (see how greedy those Jews were in the temple in The Passion).)

Considering that current world history contains many stories of mass murder, enslavement, and warfare, why go back hundreds of years? Surely, Austrailia is ripe with stories as is the USA. Maybe he could turn his attention to the Puritans who fled persecution in England only to come here and terrorize natives and later, blacks?

The Passion was I believe the world's first big, bloody, and great Christian/Catholic horror film. It's a "great" piece of sadism and whatever else people want to make out of it, the film is about blood, torture, punishment. I found it odd, at the time, that so many Christians flocked to it in all earnestness (even taking their kids!) when these same folks flipped out at Janet Jackson's exposed breast during the Superbowl. But then, to mis-quote Lenny Bruce: "A naked woman is only acceptable to the viewing public if her body's been mutilated." Anyway, Gibson is a horror-film director and perhaps one day, cineophiles will appreciate (or ridicule) his work as such.

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The Planet Is Violent
Posted by: hole11 on Dec 17, 2006 5:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The sun eats the moon and night destroys the day. Even a tree could maim or take someones eye out. Killer bees. Malaria in mosquitos. Man isn't the most violent out there. Everything has it. Part of our nature. Religon, governments, tribes or alpha males makes very litte different.

This is a man's movie about man deciding his own destiny. Gibson told a story of how things might of been for an Aztec like culture that grew to dominate a smarter culture. Could happen anywhere at anytime.

If Gibson is truly anti-semitic he would of done a move about the crusades, Inquisition, English expelling the jews before Cromwell, or how the germans felt they were betrayed by them at Versailles.

If anything this film is anti-capital punishment as the aztec culture dominated through a planned killing of outsiders. What was missing was their sport that had death involved with it. Otherwise this movie was good escapism but I personally don't like chase films.

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Catholic, to boot
Posted by: twocreeks on Dec 17, 2006 6:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am what is called "Native American", (baptized Catholic at a mission), carry my NA card and all. Many non-native people hilariously are seemingly fulfilled on informing me that I am (with no knowledge of me personally) (but perhaps through some kind of DNA effect) that I must necessarily be very spiritual. Everyone seems to have an image of us, as a group, as a political image, as essential parts of the non-native mythological system, etc.
Well, I loved Apocalypto. As one of the very rare (try "The Fast Runner") films using a native language, it is a dramatic and spectacular effort by Mel Gibson. If we were talking thousands of films in native languages, with diversity in outlook and style, well, then Gibson's film MIGHT (and I said MIGHT!) be rationally seen as violent, inaccurate, etc. But believe me, the humor, the characters, and the point that the small girl who faces the captors and recites the apocalypse legend is incredible and so human (and how could it not be?) - after all America, a few small lines here and there (Bill of Rights, etc.) have defined this entire nation, with its incredible inconsistancies, brutality, and diversities in rational thought and unspeakably vile superstitions and racial attitudes as well. Gibsons's work is incredible here, be Gibson as he may.

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» KNow what? Posted by: JERSEYDAN
Guilty as Charged: the Crime of Evading or Ignoring OUR Past
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Dec 17, 2006 6:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author has a good point. Why not look at our own civilization (form the Spanish conquest to the present, that is); not a historic one that most of us have no connection to and that we know too little about to pass the kind of judgments Gibson aparrently has (I have not see the film, but feel the gist of it is clear enough from all that we know).

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I can debate you, sure
Posted by: Blaugaia on Dec 17, 2006 9:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr albrechtkrausse, all these problems you mentioned have some truth to them. But tell me, have you been in Mexico long enough to be so sure of them? Where did you get your information from? Of course there is crime and there are criminals in Mexico (as in any other country) but why are you generalizing, as if Mexicans were all as you define them? I am Mexican, lived there most of my life and we are not the way you depict us, or our country. In our society people are as appaled as you are by all these crimes being commited by some Mexicans, as a woman I can tell you that nobody accepts or respects the image of a "Mexican macho" , we actually joke quite a lot about it, and of course fight it wherever it appears. My friends are laughing at your description of our "culture", but we are also disappointed and to tell you the truth a bit "scared" to realize that there are people like you that really don't know much about Mexico, yet speak out of cliches and bigotry. Please, if you have a chance do go to Mexico, talk to the peolpe there, find out about our values, but don't just go to the troublesome poor towns in some parts of the "frontera", go talk to some of the millions of people that are just like you, regular folk. And just to finish let me tell you that I rather be in Mexico than in the USA. Chhildren are more respectful of their teachers, and parents. Education, especially public education is waaaaaaaay better (don't take my word, ask anyone who goes to school there what they are learning, and then compare it with what American kids are learning, try asking about history, mathematics, physics, geography, other languages), we also learn to be critical thinkers, we learn that politicians are natural liers and never trust a president blindly.... like many Americans do. There is a lot of corruption, but we are fighting against it as we fight against all those crimes you mentioned before, but I guess most importantly, we don't think we are better than others! As a mestiza, I am proud of my european and indigenous inheritance, and I as many, many others fight for the rights of indigenous people, and I can assure you that we are more accepting and understanding of the different cultures and customs than American are.

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» RE: I can debate you, sure Posted by: Blaugaia
» RE: I can debate you, sure Posted by: Blaugaia
one drunken rant doesn't earn mad mel public crucifixion
Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 18, 2006 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but Mel Gibson is guilty of one, count ‘em, one drunken anti-Semitic outburst.

The father was a Holocaust denier, not the son.

Ah but he did direct a very Catholic passion play, THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST. And he was viciously raked over the coals by a lot of very prominent Jewish Americans among the media elites.

And only AFTER this public scourging does Mad Mel slam down a few too many Margaritas, and allow all that simmering anger to spill out onto a California Highway Patrol Officer.

So, before he makes the Jesus movie and gets slammed by half the liberal Jews in Hollywood and New York, Mad Mel never said a drunken, unkind word about any Hebrew anywhere.

But AFTER his Jesus movie gets trashed he gets drunk ONCE and goes into a tirade about Jews, wars, etc., and suddenly he’s a raving anti-Semite and all his films become right-wing propaganda?

Mel should have kept his drunken Catholic mouth shut, but please, does the punishment fit the crime? APOCALYPTO is an excellent film about man's inhumanity to man, and if it had been made by Spielberg or Scorcese the same critics would've called it the best thing since sliced fry bread.

And then the bloggers on this site make another leap of faith (pun intended) and blame all the evils of the world on Christianity? Nice to know that right-wing Christians like Mao and Pol Pot can blame their Catholic school nuns for the Cultural Revolution and the Killing Fields.

The Stalinist genocide of the Kulaks in the Ukraine can easily be blamed on Uncle Joe’s early training for the priesthood. And Hitler (who, rumor has it, was one-quarter Jewish through his paternal grandfather), well he chucked all that Catholic School crap and became obsessed with the occult and astrology, didn’t he?

Don’t kid yourselves. Violence is a HUMAN thing, not a religious thing. We don’t need racism or religion to kill each other, although people have been doing each other in for centuries in the name of God or race. We kill each other because that is our nature.

Evil men use God as an excuse to do evil. Good men are used by God to do good. These facts didn’t change when Mel made the Jesus movie.

One more historical note: The Puritans banned Passion Plays and Christmas as "too Catholic."

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Mel; and the extant Maya
Posted by: jdylarid on Dec 18, 2006 12:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Opening disclaimer: I have not seen Apocalypto (but plan on it). The author of the article above seems to raise several valid points about the movie, and about Gibson. However, while Gibson may be over-stating the prevalence of Aztec-style human sacrifice among the Mayan rulers of the period he depicts, I think it is agreed that sacrifices by the priestly class did take place, especially in times of economic/cultural challenges. Apocalypto takes place very late in the pre-Spanish Mayan historical arc, well after the "Classic" civilization and many of its fascinating nuances had largely disappeared. At least Gibson actually made a high-profile picture depicting one of the great indigenous civilizations of the Americas, in indigenous language. This is enitrely unprecedented and I think Gibson deserves kudos for it.

According to a Maya (from Mexico) that I heard interviewed on Pacific radio, Gibson hired hundreds of Maya as extras in the movie, and others as consultants, and seemed genuinely interested in adhering to "accuracy" whenever possible (granted, there is disagreement about what is accurate).
Apparently the film also explores the tensions between urban "high" culture (decadence, exploitation) and the simpler, pure country culture. While Gibson may be biased here, this theme, like that of corrupt rulers and priests exploiting the masses for their personal benefit, is a universal one. I think available evidence suggests it applies just as much to the Mayan world as everywhere else.

Gibson seems to make the same picture over and over: the decent man who minds whose own business and lives a peaceful life is overwhelmed by invaders and/or corrupt rulers, who are extremely violent. The hero is then forced to single-handedly fight them, using extreme violence -- or, in the case of the Passion, endure their violence. (With many scenes involving scantily-clad, grunting men...hmmm.) The Patriot (not directed by Gibson but starring him) fits here. So Apocalypto fits this same storyline onto an indigenous template.

It should also be noted that the Maya still exist. Comments both pro and con above seem to miss this. Indigenous Maya must be one of the most numerous ethno-linguistic indigenous groups left in the Americas, as they form most of the population of Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula, and the highlands of Mexico's Chiapas and Guatemala. I have traveled extensively in two of these three areas and the indigenous presence is simply ubiquitious, including the common use of various Mayan dialects. And as the author notes above, these people have suffered and continue to suffer discrimination as well as direct military and economic oppression. This story is undoubtedly more worthy of being told on film.

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» RE: Mel; and the extant Maya Posted by: twocreeks
Holier than thou
Posted by: Soco on Dec 18, 2006 1:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Attitude is not restricted to Evangelical Christians for sure. Many on the Left love pointing out how noble they are by pointing out how much better they are than Gibson. There is a whole market for celebrity related news where we can revile in someone's fall from grace. Gibson got drunk and said stupid shit, like drunk people can and will do. Surprise.

Can anyone tell me which films do not take artistic license to tell a historical story? Fact is, the Mayans weren't exactly the rosy Utopian society people originally thought they were. Fact is, Cortez had a large contingent of natives that assisted his conquest of Montezuma. Fact is, the "genocide" was principally due to disease, not warfare. Sure Cortez was brutal and ruthless, but Spain did not send a million people with Cortez's party, it was more like 500 Spaniards against millions of natives. I doubt anyone could have predicted the introduction of disease would have made such an impact. Sorry, this doesn't qualify for genocide of the noble peace loving children of the earth natives.

The interesting thing is that the Left has it's own version of revisionist historians that like to paint themselves as heros of identifying the atrocities of everyone and being victims. "I am more aware than you, I care more and it makes me better than you." Save the whales and screw the people. It's one of the few places where people try to "Out Liberal" another liberal by being more offended. If you are a minority all the better, but most likely your a self-loathing Caucasian with a college degree who intellectually better understands to plight of the minorities than the minorities themselves. Yea, when you actually meet an "Injun" you can be more offended than them, while wondering why they aren't running around in loincloth burning sage. Bonus points for having a black friend you can use as a crutch to prop up your tirades against Conservatives and people who aren't "Liberal" enough. Besides, you support Native American culture by visiting casinos once a month.

I have news for you, warfare has been a part of every culture and race on the planet, it's not restricted to one group. Slavery and genocide is not restricted to Caucasians. There is significant evidence and small and powerful groups of people throughout history controlled their people by religion and warfare for personal gain.

I had hope for AlterNet, but the quality of articles have been fluff shit like this to reinforce stupid liberal ideology rather than consider most people are in fact moderates. You are becoming a perfect mirror of the JackAsses on the right. To be liberal is to have awareness of every stupid ass issue on the planet and do nothing about it, to be conservative is acting without awareness. Each side's true enemy is themselves and anyone trying to be moderate of thought.

I get it, Mel Gibson's movie sucks ass because he is an Anti-Semite and now he's trying to say Mayans sacrificed people. If we can't destroy his reputation we'll attempt to destroy his work. For now, let's make Mel Gibson the poster boy for everything wrong in the world, until we can find another.

Who doesn't have issues to deal with? Apparently AlterNet Liberals are free of them. So many issues, so little time.

Apocalypto was a good movie, and it doesn't make me hate Jews or Mayans. It really makes me wish these types of liberals would STFU.

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» Aztecs, Mayans, Cortez... Posted by: jdylarid
So each movie now has to be historically accurate?
Posted by: fitzjohn on Dec 18, 2006 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A movie cannot be simply entertaining, it HAS to be historically accurate (not that I'd ever go see Apocalypto, blood and guts movies aren't my entertainment)? Tell me what movie playing now is historically accurate? If this is the case, Michael Moore cannot make his standard fare as it won't pass the accuracy test...

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It seems like most people are missing the point
Posted by: DanielT28 on Dec 19, 2006 1:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I saw the movie this past weekend, and it seems like the author and most posters are too blinded by their past and emotional biases to see the movie for what it is... especially the people who haven't even seen it.

First of all, no human alive today was around at the time of the movie's setting... it cannot be accurate, no movie, set in the past, will ever be accurate, or even present time...

To those complaining about accuracy... were you alive then? Are you so sure that you know exactly what life was like then?

Beyond that, a lot of Mayans were actually involved in the making of the film. Mayans of those days did have human sacrifices, when things were bad, to please the gods, etc... many people have done this or similar, throughout history... but the main character and his fellow villagers were presented in a very positive human light, though not a part of the main Mayan city, they were obviously a part of the people of the region...

The movie was actually very political, showing the urban elite's decadence, resource (natural and human) exploitation, diverting personal responsibility to an impersonal god, etc... I'm sure you get the point. These rulers exploited their people for their own benefit, sound familiar?

BTW... When the priest was sacrificing, I felt that he knew about the eclipse, and took advantage of it, as a tool for controling the people... as if he was appeasing the god...

The movie also has a theme of fear. Jaguar Paw, the main character, had to abandon his fear and basically do what he needed to do. When the Mayan warriors became fearful, they suffered... it depicted the Mayans, as fearing for their life (disease, bad crops, dwindling resources, etc.), basically when you live in fear you get jacked... and as the Mayans came and jacked his village, and others, in the end the Spaniards (on boats with MILITARY men and RELGIOUS men) showed up... and how did Jaguar Paw react? his wife says "should we go to them?" Jaguar Paw says "let's go to the forest and look for a new beginning"

To me, Mel actually equates the Spanish with the Mayan... one corrupt, declining nation comes and ravages his village, then another comes... you know the story.

I think Mel did a great job, but keep in mind, this movie was NOT about the Mayans. The story was about corruption, fear, courage, politics, etc.... the story is the story...

I know that plenty of people hate Mel, but stop for a minute and look at his ideas and his story. Realize that he is a man, and like other men he has his good side and his bad side. He has his faults and he has changed over time, like everything does. For those that equate him with the catholic church, did you know that he believes that Jews, Muslims, etc. can "get into" heaven? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd that a "Catholic" would think that?
Anyway...
To say that any group of people are a particular way is incorrect. I'm sure the Mayan people changed over time, as does everything in existence. I'm sure that during certain time periods certain Mayans were really great people... does that mean every single Mayan throughout time has been a great, benevolent, intelligent person? No... but in the same light, that does not mean that every single Mayan throughout time has been corrupt, savage, etc... the same applies to the Spanish, European, Asian, African, whatever... I'm sure that India, in it's day, had some viciousness of it's own, as every other large nation ruled by a small group of elites, with ignorant, unengaged citizens...

Watch the movie again, or for the first time, without looking for ways to prove how bad of a job Mel did, or how accurate/inaccurate it is... just see the story as it is...

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if mel gibson is wrong in his movie, then show some facts
Posted by: folkdude01 on Dec 20, 2006 2:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this is the problem I always have with people who complain about certain things and then don't have any proof on their complaint. All the writer said was Gibsons' FICTIONAL film was inaccurate on its portrayal of Mayans. I haven't seen the movie and I'm not a Mayan historian. BUT the writer doesn't seem to be either, yet he says it's inaccurate and then he says Gibson should have told a different story. What is that about? If you have a problem with something, then give some examples on what he got wrong. The only thing he has is his own personal feelings on the subject and a single quote from a UC Riverside professor whom like this author gives a blank statement with no backbone it. I don't think alternet readers are that dumb to believe nor accept that they'll accept a charge without full research and knowledge on a subject. The author and alternet should have known better....instead of making a poor attempt at attacking Mel Gibsons' film.

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