Home
Archive
Newsletters
Video
Blogs
Discuss
About
Search
Donate
Advertise

Is 9/11 Paranoia Bad for the Country?

By Christopher Hayes, The Nation. Posted December 11, 2006.


The biggest threat posed by the 9/11 Truth Movement is the danger that it will discredit the healthy skepticism Americans increasingly show toward their leaders.
121106story
Why 9/11 Paranoia Is Bad for the Country

Share and save this post:

      

      

Share on Facebook       

AlterNet Social Networks:
follow us on twitter
find us on Facebook

In Special Coverage

Belief:
Atheists, It's Time to Stand Up to Jesus
Russell Blackford, Udo Schuklenk

Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace:
As Foreclosure Nightmares Increase, Will More Homeowners Pay Off Their Bankers in Violence?
Scott Thill

DrugReporter:
Lies About Marijuana Drive People to a Much More Harmful Drug -- Booze
Steve Fox

Environment:
Why the End May Be Coming for Coal
Christine MacDonald

Food:
Despite Censorship By Beef Magnate, Michael Pollan Spreads Message About the Real Price of Cheap Food

Health and Wellness:
New York May Stop Heartless Health Insurers from Dropping Coverage When It Stops Being Profitable
William Ehart

Immigration:
NYC Marathon Raises Question of Who Is American Enough?
James E. Johnson, Jr.

Media and Technology:
Focusing on Fort Hood Killer's Beliefs Is an Easy Out to Avoid the Deeper Reasons for the Massacre
Mark Ames

Movie Mix:
The Yes Men: Pranksters Out to Fix the World
Mark Engler

Politics:
What Michelle and Barack's Marriage Has in Common with 56 Million Other Ones
Annabelle Gurwitch

Reproductive Justice and Gender:
Fetus-Shaped Potatoes? Going Undercover Inside the Weird World of Right-Wing Abortion Foes
Ann Neumann

Rights and Liberties:
"My Kids Want to Hide Their Identity; They're Scared Someone Will Attack Us": U.S. Muslims Being Targeted
Jaisal Noor

Sex and Relationships:
Instant Sex: Has the Digital Age Destroyed Relationships or Made Them Better?
Vanessa Richmond

Take Action:
G-20 Meetings: Nothing Much Happened in the Suites, and There Was Too Much Punch in the Streets
Laura Flanders

Water:
Why Natural Gas Is Not a Clean Energy Panacea
Stan Cox

World:
With Unemployment at 40 Percent, Afghan Teens Enlist in Army, Police
Lal Aqa Sherin

More stories by Christopher Hayes

Advertisement
Upcoming AlterNet stories on Digg

According to a July poll conducted by Scripps News Service, one-third of Americans think the government either carried out the 9/11 attacks or intentionally allowed them to happen in order to provide a pretext for war in the Middle East. This is at once alarming and unsurprising. Alarming, because if tens of millions of Americans really believe their government was complicit in the murder of 3,000 of their fellow citizens, they seem remarkably sanguine about this fact. By and large, life continues as before, even though tens of millions of people apparently believe they are being governed by mass murderers. Unsurprising, because the government these Americans suspect of complicity in 9/11 has acquired a justified reputation for deception: weapons of mass destruction, secret prisons, illegal wiretapping. What else are they hiding?

This pattern of deception has not only fed diffuse public cynicism but has provided an opening for alternate theories of 9/11 to flourish. As these theories -- propounded by the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement -- seep toward the edges of the mainstream, they have raised the specter of the return (if it ever left) of what Richard Hofstadter famously described as "the paranoid style in American politics." But the real danger posed by the Truth Movement isn't paranoia. Rather, the danger is that it will discredit and deform the salutary skepticism Americans increasingly show toward their leaders.

The Truth Movement's recent growth can be largely attributed to the Internet-distributed documentary Loose Change. A low-budget film produced by two 20-somethings that purports to debunk the official story of 9/11, it's been viewed over the Internet millions of times. Complementing Loose Change are the more highbrow offerings of a handful of writers and scholars, many of whom are associated with Scholars for 9/11 Truth. Two of these academics, retired theologian David Ray Griffin and retired Brigham Young University physics professor Steven Jones, have written books and articles that serve as the movement's canon. Videos of their lectures circulate among the burgeoning portions of the Internet devoted to the cause of the "truthers." A variety of groups have chapters across the country and organize conferences that draw hundreds. In the last election cycle, the website 911truth.org even produced a questionnaire with pointed inquiries for candidates, just like the US Chamber of Commerce or the Sierra Club. The Truth Movement's relationship to the truth may be tenuous, but that it is a movement is no longer in doubt.

Truth activists often maintain they are simply "raising questions," and as such tend to focus with dogged persistence on physical minutiae: the lampposts near the Pentagon that should have been knocked down by Flight 77, the altitude in Pennsylvania at which cellphones on Flight 93 should have stopped working, the temperature at which jet fuel burns and at which steel melts. They then use these perceived inconsistencies to argue that the central events of 9/11 -- the plane hitting the Pentagon, the towers collapsing -- were not what they appeared to be. So: The eyewitness accounts of those who heard explosions in the World Trade Center, combined with the facts that jet fuel burns at 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit and steel melts at 2,500, shows that the towers were brought down by controlled explosions from inside the buildings, not by the planes crashing into them.

If the official story is wrong, then what did happen? As you might expect, there's quite a bit of dissension on this point. Like any movement, the Truth Movement is beset by internecine fights between different factions: those who subscribe to what are termed LIHOP theories (that the government "let it happen on purpose") and the more radical MIHOP ("made it happen on purpose") contingent. Even within these groups, there are divisions: Some believe the WTC was detonated with explosives after the planes hit and some don't even think there were any planes.

To the extent that there is a unified theory of the nature of the conspiracy, it is based, in part, on the precedent of the Reichstag fire in Germany in the 1930s. The idea is that just as the Nazis staged a fire in the Reichstag in order to frighten the populace and consolidate power, the Bush Administration, military contractors, oil barons and the CIA staged 9/11 so as to provide cause and latitude to pursue its imperial ambitions unfettered by dissent and criticism. But the example of the Reichstag fire itself is instructive. While during and after the war many observers, including officials of the US government, suspected the fire was a Nazi plot, the consensus among historians is that it was, in fact, the product of a lone zealous anarchist. That fact changes little about the Nazi regime, or its use of the fire for its own ends. It's true the Nazis were the chief beneficiaries of the fire, but that doesn't mean they started it, and the same goes for the Bush Administration and 9/11.

The Reichstag example also holds a lesson for those who would dismiss the very notion of a conspiracy as necessarily absurd. It was perfectly reasonable to suspect the Nazis of setting the fire, so long as the evidence suggested that might have been the case. The problem isn't with conspiracy theories as such; the problem is continuing to assert the existence of a conspiracy even after the evidence shows it to be virtually impossible.

In March 2005 Popular Mechanics assembled a team of engineers, physicists, flight experts and the like to critically examine some of the Truth Movement's most common claims. They found them almost entirely without merit. To pick just one example, steel might not melt at 1,500 degrees, the temperature at which jet fuel burns, but it does begin to lose a lot of its strength, enough to cause the support beams to fail.

And yet no amount of debunking seems to work. The Internet empowers people with esoteric interests to spend all kinds of time pursuing their hobbies, and if the Truth Movement was the political equivalent of Lord of the Rings fan fiction or furries, there wouldn't be much reason to pay attention. But the public opinion trend lines are moving in the truthers' direction, even after the official 9/11 Commission report was supposed to settle the matter once and for all.

Of course, the commission report was something of a whitewash -- Bush would only be interviewed in the presence of Dick Cheney, the commission was denied access to other key witnesses and just this year we learned of a meeting convened by George Tenet the summer before the attacks to warn Condoleezza Rice about Al Qaeda's plotting, a meeting that was nowhere mentioned in the report.

So it's hard to blame people for thinking we're not getting the whole story. For six years, the government has prevaricated and the press has largely failed to point out this simple truth. Critics like The New Yorker's Nicholas Lemann might lament the resurgence of the "paranoid style," but the seeds of paranoia have taken root partly because of the complete lack of appropriate skepticism by the establishment press, a complementary impulse to the paranoid style that might be called the credulous style. In the credulous style all political actors are acting with good intentions and in good faith. Mistakes are made, but never because of ulterior motives or undue influence from the various locii of corporate power. When people in power advocate strenuously for a position it is because they believe in it. When their advocacy leads to policies that create misery, it is due not to any evil intentions or greed or corruption, but rather simple human error. Ahmad Chalabi summed up this worldview perfectly. Faced with the utter absence of the WMD he and his cohorts had long touted in Iraq, he replied, "We are heroes in error."

For a long time the credulous style has dominated the establishment, but its hold intensified after 9/11. When the government speaks, particularly about the Enemy, it must be presumed to be telling the truth. From the reporting about Iraq's alleged WMD to the current spate of stories about how "dangerous" Iran is, time and again the press has reacted to official pronouncements about threats with a near total absence of skepticism. Each time the government announces the indictment of domestic terrorists allegedly plotting our demise, the press devotes itself to the story with obsessive relish, only to later note, on page A22 or in a casual aside, that the whole thing was bunk. In August 2003, to cite just one example, the New York dailies breathlessly reported what one US official called an "incredible triumph in the war against terrorism," the arrest of Hemant Lakhani, a supposed terrorist mastermind caught red-handed attempting to acquire a surface-to-air missile. Only later did the government admit that the "plot" consisted of an FBI informant begging Lakhani to find him a missile, while a Russian intelligence officer called up Lakhani and offered to sell him one.

Yet after nearly a dozen such instances, the establishment media continue to earnestly report each new alleged threat or indictment, secure in the belief that their proximity to policy-makers gets it closer to the truth. But proximity can obscure more than clarify. It's hard to imagine that the guy sitting next to you at the White House correspondents' dinner is plotting to, say, send the country into a disastrous and illegal war, or is spying on Americans in blatant defiance of federal statutes. Bob Woodward, the journalist with the most access to the Bush Administration, was just about the last one to realize that the White House is disingenuous and cynical, that it has manipulated the machinery of state for its narrow political ends.

Meanwhile, those who realized this was the White House's MO from the beginning have been labeled conspiracy theorists. During the 2004 campaign Howard Dean made the charge that the White House was manipulating the terror threat level and recycling old intelligence. The Bush campaign responded by dismissing Dean as a "bizarre conspiracy theorist." A year later, after Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge retired, he admitted that Dean's charge was, indeed, the truth. The same accusation of conspiracy-mongering was routinely leveled at anyone who suggested that the war in Iraq was and is motivated by a desire for the United States to control the world's second-largest oil reserves.

For the Administration, "conspiracy" is a tremendously useful term, and can be applied even in the most seemingly bizarre conditions to declare an inquiry or criticism out of bounds. Responding to a question from NBC's Brian Williams as to whether he ever discusses official business with his father, Bush said such a suggestion was a "kind of conspiracy theory at its most rampant." The credulous style can brook no acknowledgment of unarticulated motives to our political actors, or consultations to which the public is not privy.

The public has been presented with two worldviews, one credulous, one paranoid, and both unsatisfactory. The more the former breaks apart, the greater the appeal of the latter. Conspiracy theories that claim to explain 9/11 are wrongheaded and a terrible waste of time, but the skeptical instinct is, on balance, salutary. It is right to suspect that the operations of government, the power elite and the military-industrial complex are often not what they seem; and proper to raise questions when the answers provided have been unconvincing. Given the untruths to which American citizens have been subjected these past six years, is it any surprise that a majority of them think the government's lying about what happened before and on 9/11?

Still, the persistent appeal of paranoid theories reflects a cynicism that the credulous media have failed to address, because they posit a world of good intentions and face-value pronouncements, one in which the suggestion that a government would mislead or abuse its citizens for its own gains or the gains of its benefactors is on its face absurd. The danger is that the more this government's cynicism and deception are laid bare, the more people -- on the left in particular and among the public in general -- will be drawn down the rabbit hole of delusion of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

To avoid such a fate, the public must come to trust that the gatekeepers of public discourse share their skepticism about the agenda its government is pursuing. The antidote, ultimately, to the Truth Movement is a press that refuses to allow the government to continue to lie.

Digg!    Share on facebook   submit to reddit    Bookmark on Delicious   Stumble This  

See more stories tagged with: 9/11 truth movement

Christopher Hayes is the senior editor of In These Times and a Nation Institute Puffin writing fellow.

Liked this story? Get top stories in your inbox each week from AlterNet! Sign up now »


Advertisement
Advertisement

 

Comments Turn comments off sitewide Give us feedback »
Comments closed.
The comments for this story have been closed. Thank you to everyone who participated.
View:
IgetItNow
Posted by: NotConvinced on Dec 11, 2006 12:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In case anyone was still wondering what the False Left was, I think it is becoming more and more clear.

» RE: IgetItNow Posted by: edith
» RE: IgetItNow Posted by: ScottP
» RE: IgetItNow Posted by: rsaxto
» Where's the progress in this article? Posted by: OpinionsGetOld
» Lies, fantasies and Clinton! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Lies, fantasies and Clinton! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Lies, fantasies and Clinton! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Clinton and 9/11 Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Lies, fantasies and Clinton! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Conspiracy Switcheroo Posted by: kogwonton
» RE: Lies, fantasies and Clinton! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Yes -They are afraid Posted by: kogwonton
» RE: IgetItNow Posted by: johnp
Nation/AlterNet admit they are GateKeepers and continue the BIG LIE
Posted by: LeftWright on Dec 11, 2006 12:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's the PHYSICS. stupid!

The fact that WTC 7 was destroyed by contolled demolition is so obvious that the MSM refuses to show the video of it.

The truth movement is not partisan, it's made up of real American patriots that know when we are being lied to about the worst crime in US history and we will not give up or settle for limited hangout attempts to cut short our push for the truth and the restoration of a functioning US democracy.

This article is just one more pathetic attempt by the increasingly desperate and corrupt establishment to maintain their stranglehold on the American people.

Every day the 9/11 Truth movement gets stronger and the government myth shills become more obvious.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

» Reaping and Sowing... Posted by: kogwonton
» It IS the physics, stupid. Posted by: fanny666
» You seem to be forgetting that: Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: You seem to be forgetting that: Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us
» RE: You seem to be forgetting that: Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us
» RE: You seem to be forgetting that: Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us
» RE: You seem to be forgetting that: Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us
» RE: It IS the physics, stupid. Posted by: saltlife
» Just the facts please! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» I stopped Posted by: NowYogi
» Come on Posted by: NowYogi
» RE: Come on Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE:F-Idiot!! Posted by: Mycos
know
Posted by: rsaxto on Dec 11, 2006 12:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We already know with certainty that the Bushies murdered over 100,000 Iraqis in an illegal war so why would they have scruples about murdering 3000 Americans in their quest for oil dominion? They are criminals. Regardless of the exact status of their complicity in 9/11 we know that they are criminals so they need to be impeached for three reasons: justice, publication of more of their atrocious secrets and to deter future head-of-state criminals. If we do not push for the justice that is badly needed then we are all criminals and all deserve to die in the neoholocaust of atomic warfare.

» Three reasons Posted by: derfb1
» speaking of sickness... Posted by: baldo
» RE: Three reasons Posted by: douglashoyt
» STFU Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Three reasons Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Three reasons Posted by: rsaxto
» RE: Three reasons Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Three reasons Posted by: jwg
» underscoring Posted by: launcher
capable of anything
Posted by: edith on Dec 11, 2006 12:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Forty three years after the assassination of JFK, the public continues to believe, correctly, that LBJ and Earl Warren covered up credible reports that the CIA and Organized Crime together with at least the passive acquiescence of the FBI, arranged the murder of a US President.

Now, after five years of senseless war in the Middle East, we are told that we are irresponsible to even consider that the attacks on airlines and the WTC/Pentagon were planned by the Bush Admiinistration and/or its underground cohorts like the Carlyle Group. These attacks was used by a dishonest, corrupt regime with ties to the Ben Laden family, to lauch a war to seize control of Central Asia and world oil leverage.

The press doesn't like to be cast as the bad guy. Tough. They blew the Kennedy and King assasinations and they blew this crisis too with their breathless 24hr a day fawning of Bush and Cheney in the aftermath of 9/11.

What is incredible has happened. Thus who decides what's responsible? The press? The US press, including parts of the alternate media like the Nation, desperately want to be respectible so they get in on press briefings and can participate in pundit talk shows like Katrina Vanden Heuvel and David Corn do. Sidney Blumenthal, the alleged "independent" voice of the Left, is but a flak for Hilary Clinton and her political Svengali, Harold Ickes.

The internet is the artery of Truth and LIfe, as it is the least likely avenue to be censored.

Who benefitted the most from 9/11? That is a question the mainstream media still doesn't even ask, let alone answer.

» RE: capable of anything Posted by: rsaxto
» and the winner is??????? (drum roll) Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Oh, let me, PLEEEEASE..... LOL Posted by: Conservasaurus
» With you I would...... LOL Posted by: Prophit
» RE: and the winner is??????? (drum roll) Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us
» I agree Posted by: Shakti
Hot Twins
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 11, 2006 1:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Twin Towers were a secret project by the government known to insiders as the "Hot Twins" project. Started in 1966, they were one of the last major projects of the Cold War, built specifically to be used as a pretense for war against the Russians, should that ever be necessary.

They were deliberately built with weak materials, so they could be demolished in any way the government chooses, at any time.

When the Cold War ended, the government needed an excuse to destroy them without revealing the secret. The War On Terror provided them with an excuse, thus killing two birds. Incidentally, it was called Operation Two Birds, which also referred to the two planes hired by the US and driven by CIA agents.

People believe what they want. That's why Fox News, religion, conspiracy theories, etc. are so popular. Critical thinking and reality are so boring.

» evidence Posted by: dr_bognus
» RE: evidence Posted by: ISlamIslam
» RE: evidence Posted by: meddlehead
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: derfb1
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: Conservasaurus
» I stand corrected Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: I stand corrected Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: Bree in Idaho
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: Bree in Idaho
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: meliom
» RE: Hot Twins Posted by: dvw7
Good luck, Christopher
Posted by: ISlamIslam on Dec 11, 2006 3:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the posts so far, it's obvious that those who believe that 9/11 was an inside job by the U.S. government are not going to quit clinging to this belief, no matter what kind of iron-clad evidence is presented to them. It is a security blanket for them, because it means that they don't have to deal with the fact that 9/11 was perpetrated by Muslims and, therefore, don't have to pass judgment on one type of "Other." No, it's much easier for them to hate their own government than a twisted belief system from the 7th century. It's called Hesperophobia. Meanwhile, the 70% of the populace who havn't succumbed to this Third World paranoia will continue to elbow these nut cases out of the way in our attempt to save Western civilization...but it sure does take its toll in capital and energy.

» Who Did It? Posted by: rwa
» WHO'S THE BIG COMEDIAN? Posted by: SALLY EVANS
» Here's her post Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Good luck, Christopher Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Do not feed the trolls! Posted by: LMNOP
» Duh yourself Posted by: brunowe
» To LeftWright Posted by: mjabele
» We are all Hesperophobes Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: We are all Hesperophobes Posted by: Prophit
» ISlamIslam Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: ISlamIslam Posted by: NowYogi
» Hesperophobia Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Hesperophobia Posted by: ISlamIslam
Nation in a Hayes - "Liberals" Protecting Bush
Posted by: dainin on Dec 11, 2006 3:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The absurdity of this article is amazing. The pseudo liberal media seems to be expending a great deal of energy protecting the Bush Administration's false story about 9/11.

Wow - You are right Christopher! Dark skinned demons ARE out to steal our freedoms! (Former?) allies of the CIA just happen to be behind it, and although the evidence of US foreknowledge is staggering, it is just an amazing coincidence. Insider trading occurred with no insiders, and 15 military exercises, some mocking-up the same events on the same day, show us nothing (look away! look away!)

Yes, now we know this has nothing to do with the otherwise obvious siezure of invaluable Eurasian resources, as planned and clearly stated by those who we all KNOW are mass murderers. They might kill 3,500 innocent people a day, but they would never kill 2,900 people to get it started.

» Another thing about Kerosene... Posted by: MonkeyBoy
Trust Our Government? Pahleez!
Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 11, 2006 3:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to the pages from the Project For A New American Century (PNAC), the only thing that could bring about a real incursion into the Middle East would be a "Pearl Harbor type of event". It is obvious that in the years previous to 9/11 they were literally drooling for such a scenerio to transpire. Does that mean I believe that George Bush, Dick Cheney, et.al. were responsible in any way for the carnage that occurred on that horrible day? No it doesn't. But were it to be made known that they were somehow involved, it would not surprise me in the least. These people are capable of anything. Anything.

The author of the above piece appears surprised that alot of Americans believe that they are being governed by mass murderers (at least that's the impression I got). Could it be that he doesn't think that's the case? Probably not. Anyone who denies that Geoge W. Bush and the tsunami of human shit that comprises his disgusting administration are not complicant in genocide have been watching too much FOX News while drinking near lethal levals of Stupid Juice.

Am I paranoid? Who can say! But if I am, having lived through six and a half years of this nightmare of an administration, I've earned the right to be paranoid, thankyou very much!

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

» Right On Posted by: NowYogi
» Bill Kristol Posted by: Donna_Darko
» If we can prove Posted by: Donna_Darko
welcome another left gatekeeper
Posted by: DrXyzzy on Dec 11, 2006 3:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Canadian journalist Barrie Zwicker has a book out called Towers of Deception. It goes into media coverage of 9/11 in depth. Chapter 5, a discussion of the "left gatekeepers", is the best attempt I've seen so far on this issue - how and why are some well-known voices on the left attempting to limit discourse on 9/11.

Never listen, never think, never never science
Posted by: dancerkc on Dec 11, 2006 4:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is only four hours since this posting went currant and already this is filled with stupid thinking. Have we killed science and critical thinking that badly in this country? Or is is just that the people who want the main stage are just like Bush/Cheney et. all - so determined to dominate the stage they will say anything and convince themselves of anything. It is all about accusation and claim without a shred of truly thought out evidence.

They claim physics and obviously are ignorant of actual physics and actual engineering. This is well beyond ignorance (if only it were merely ignorant) this is some of the most determined stupidity, malicious stupidity, I've ever seen.

Just like Bush/Cheney - say/believe/convince - anything for the dominant spot in the sun. Bush/Cheney?etc have ruined my country in one way, this is just the flip side. Flame baby burn!

Two Questions to Ponder
Posted by: Christie on Dec 11, 2006 4:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is 9/11 paranoia bad for the country?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

» RE: Two Questions to Ponder Posted by: dondar
gtash
Posted by: gtash on Dec 11, 2006 4:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not so dismissive as the author of the various notions proposed by 9-11 Commission skeptics and doubters. I am certain that Popular Mechanics is a fine magazine, but I have read a number of their rebuttals and find them wanting too.

Nonetheless, the author's point is a fair one: we needn't be in such a broadly suspicious and agitated state over the facts and evidence if the Press did it's job in the first place. And if it did its job well, it would be easier to separate emotion from reason, and develop conclusions based on evidence instead of speculation.

I would add only that the Government did not do its part in the process either: Full and dispassionate disclosure of the evidence it possesses, and the lengths to which it investigated anomalous events. That is a big part of the credibility issue which the Press can focus upon, but ultimately cannot control.

To suggest a government is only as credible as its press is critical places the entire burden on the Press--and that is not reasonable, especially when the Press is being continually absorbed by parties who have no interest in the unvarnished truth.

» RE: gtash Posted by: MrAllen
» RE: gtash Posted by: FastEddy
sorry, and the point of this rambling babble is...???
Posted by: schnoggi on Dec 11, 2006 4:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"False Left" is right, do you guys actually edit or is this just here to fill up space? lots of people disagree and that makes people more paranoid and the only solution is to make disasters more clear cut in the future or credibility is blah blah what? what a stairway to nowhere. at least all our bullshit detectors still went off.

The Answer is Yes
Posted by: Urstrly on Dec 11, 2006 4:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, 9/11 paranoia is bad for this country. Yes, because it keeps us from pursuing the things we might do to right the nation's course from examining our contribution to Islamic fundamentalism, from ending this hideous war in Iraq that we DO know has nothing to do with 9/11, from restoring our civil liberties, from pursuing peace between Israel and the Palestinians, from securing for our own people a decent public education through college and reliable, affordable health care. While my gut calls for a public lynching of Bush-Cheney, I suppose I will settle for impeachment, but I am sickened by this insistence that the towers were rigged. It's just one big black hole sucking what should be our genuine outrage at the very concrete things this administration does while we and our toothless press look passively on.

» RE: The Answer is NO Posted by: baldo
» RE: The Answer is Yes Posted by: hankgeorge
» RE: The Answer is Yes Posted by: MrAllen
» The 30 foot sections canard again... Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: The Answer is Yes Posted by: launcher
» RE: The Answer is Yes Posted by: meliom
» RE: The Answer is Yes Posted by: dvw7
Reader
Posted by: maolson on Dec 11, 2006 4:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article by Christopher Hayes on 9/11 is amateurish, stupid, lazy and somehow self serving among journalists of the same feather.

» RE: eader Posted by: hms2004
Please........
Posted by: lclark on Dec 11, 2006 5:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me see.......

The 'crazies' believe that the corportocracy is working to create a north american union that will advantage the multinationals and disadvantage citizens.
They also believe:

-The constitution is being underminded to redefine the bill of rights, created to recognize the inherent rights of people, to be privilages that can be taken away.

-The government has become more of an overloard than a servent of citizens

-That taxes have shifted to wage earners from corporations and those whose wealth comes from investments. while those tax dollars are used in the service or corporations and not citizens.

-That the government is systemacticly encourageing and subsidizing the drugging of hundreds of thousands of public school children on psychotropics to create a revenue stream for the pharmacorps

-That depleted uranium munitions are poisoning large populations as well as our own soldiers.

-That there is no real intent to solve the energy problem if it does not involve retaining control by the corportocracy.

-That under the ruse of 'terror, terror' the government that legislated laws that undermine our natural rights recognized by the constitution, that define more people who engage in civil disobedience as 'terrorist'.

-that the governemt has created trade deals that undermine the sovreignty of our nation and the economic viability of small business and farmers and the overall economic future of citizens to promote the multinational interests of corporations.

Now tell me, are these items true or false?

Let me see....all the fighters were diverted to various wargames...building 7 collapsed in fright....firefighters reported they found black boxes and were told to shut up..the twin towers were roped off and all the forensic material was shipped to China....and this article says the issue is bogus.

What is bogus is the merit of creating a superNAFTA highway that connects Mexico to Canada that is franchied out to foreign corporations.

We're being sold out and sold off.........

» RE: Please........ Posted by: heecheeboy
» RE: Please........ Posted by: Edward George
1984 all over again
Posted by: JoeCraine on Dec 11, 2006 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is unbelievable!

1984 in Blue clothing?

He says
"Rather, the danger is that it will discredit and deform the salutary skepticism Americans increasingly show toward their leaders"

So, the exhibition of skepticism violates the rule that citizens should be skeptical?

Then he says
"retired Brigham Young University physics professor Steven Jones"
Gosh, I though Professor Jones was fired, specifically for expressing a considered point of view! Apparently federal funding of universities is having the desired effect.

And
"tend to focus with dogged persistence on physical minutiae: the lampposts near the Pentagon that should have been knocked down by Flight 77, the altitude in Pennsylvania at which cellphones on Flight 93 should have stopped working, the temperature at which jet fuel burns and at which steel melts."

So, when the apple falls up, we still think it's a pretty good theory? Minutiae? Good lord. Let's see - no planes hit the pentagon, no plane crashed in Shanksville PA, Cell phones can not successfully maintain a call at altitude and jet fuel can't soften Steel. Minor issues that may easily be ignored by those supporting the government imposed CT.

Let's see, popular mechanics is (pick one)
(1) a peer reviewed science magazine
(2) entertainment, like Rush
(3) entertainment, like Ann
(4) Filled with experts
(5) A whore willing to surrender its honor for fast buck
That last one is a joke, since PM has no honor.

The conclusion that the press is complicit does not make up for the total lack of research. He implies that Bloggers and makers of internet documentaries are somehow less than the MSM. He's wrong. Alternet and Bloggers like it won the election for the dems. "Loose Change" will bring down those that have abused the American way of life now for many years.

The evidence says that the government story is hogwash. Ignore the evidence at your peril, politician.

» RE: 1984 all over again Posted by: futurefarm
The Far Right, JFK and 9/11
Posted by: Chevaliere on Dec 11, 2006 5:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People need to really think about who's running the U.S. (and other countries on the planet), and get it firmly in mind that it is big business. Now, think of RUTHLESS MEN. Ponder it long and carefully. Some people will do anything for money and to protect their interests/wealth. Oil has ruled American politics for a very long time and the profits of the Oil business are almost incomprehensible to the average person. And so it is that whoever controls the oil business controls America. They either control or install the U.S. government and have done so for a very long time.

That is, until John Kennedy was elected.

After he was dead, they were back in charge.

The oil companies control governments and policy, the military and political parties across the board; republicans AND democrats. They own nearly everyone. They have the power to make and break people.

Nobody with that kind of power is going to give it up easily.

And Kennedy threatened that power.

It is oil companies that want war.

It is important to remember that behind the office of the President, there are ruthless men who will do anything at all to maintain and increase their power and to attain their ends.

Doing "anything at all" means killing people who get in the way and creating situations where they can stampede populations in the way they want them to go.

The history of the White House is the history of puppets who do what they are told to do.

People sometimes ask how such conspiracies as the JFK assassination and 9/11 could be "covered up without someone from the inside talking." This is a naive question. If someone is a witness to a murder done by professionals, do you really think they are going to go around blabbing about it? And if the victim is a president, or the people in the World Trade Center towers and 4 airliners, it is clear that it has been committed by those with great power. Anybody with two firing neurons can figure out that such perpetrators are in such a strong position that protesting or blabbing puts the whistle-blower in the gravest of danger - particularly if they have an audience.

Further, it is unlikely that exposing the crime would even result in justice being done. (Assuming that there is any justice to be had). Who would they turn to? Who would protect them?

If the witness goes to the media, they might as well jump off a cliff and be done with it. Because, most certainly, the impression that the media gives of "truth seeking" is only window dressing. Now and again they expose the truth, but that is only to shore up the illusion of a democracy and a free press.

The media is, in fact, under the same control as politicians and politics. In short, the media is under the control of the perpetrators of the crime. (Including, it seems, Christopher Hayes).

So, with no media to form an opposing power base, who ya gonna tell? Who's going to believe you?

Further, in the case of crimes of state, which the JFK assassination and 9/11 certainly were, enough other people are killed to insure the silence of everyone in the conspiracy. The additional deaths (or character assassinations) send a loud and clear message to everyone who might know something: keep your mouth shut!

Read: The Radical Right and the Murder of John F. Kennedy by Harrison E. Livingstone.

And to understand what kind of people are in control of our world, read Political Ponerology: The Science of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes.

» Men and women who are at the top got there by being ruthless. Posted by: emmanuel_goldstein_fights_fake_lefties
Occam's Razor
Posted by: gabryant on Dec 11, 2006 5:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, the Bush administration is guilty of a cover-up. But the question is "what are they covering up?"

There was not conspiracy by the Bush Administration on 9/11 to attack the country. The Bush Administration is too incompetent to come up with some sort of James Bond / SPECTRE conspiracy to take over the world.

The only thing bush is covering up is his incompetence. That his administration dismissed, and paid no attention to the signs that 9/11 was going to happen. They allowed our country to be attacked through sheer incompetence. Not through any thoughtful planning with some goal for world domination, or whatever. The Bush Administration is just too incompetent for that sort of thing.

The simple answer is that they just missed the whole thing.

Any cover-up by Bush since then has been to hide their incompetence, to cover up the fact that they missed it and didn't stop it, in spite of all the signs.

Bush has used "protecting our country" to great effect over the past five years to keep himself in power. But Bush is incapable of protecting us. If we truly saw that and had the evidence to prove it, we would throw Bush out in a second. But that's what all the prevarication has been about to hide their complete and total incompetence at protecting the country and retaining power.

Nothing else. Don't waste your time on any other outlandish theories.

» RE: Occam's Razor Posted by: mrjones
» RE: Occam's Razor Posted by: nha16
» RE: Occam's Razor Posted by: heecheeboy
» Occam's Nonsense Posted by: johndoraemi
Occam's Razor redux
Posted by: gabryant on Dec 11, 2006 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, left this out:

Occam's Razor states, "All things being equal, the simplest solution (or answer) tends to be the best one."

» RE: Occam's Razor redux Posted by: heecheeboy
It seems Odd.
Posted by: douglashoyt on Dec 11, 2006 5:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one has explained satisfactorally why three steel framed buildings, one which was never hit except by debree, colapsed at freefall speed on to its' own "footprint."

There had to be some other causes beside the planes hitting the buildings.

There is not one case of buildings constructed like those ever colapsing because of fire.

That three buildings colapsed is very suspect.

» BOGUS SILVERSTEIN CLAIM Posted by: johndoraemi
» RE: It seems Odd. Posted by: Conservasaurus
One thing
Posted by: AnimalMachine on Dec 11, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Forget about everything else, think of this:

If Bush and company were somehow responsible, they would have set themselves up to be GODS in the eyes of the media. They would have had a PLAN, and had bombers in the air in minutes, Bush would have had a big Patton moment in front of a huge 'Merican flag giving a speech about the evildoers.

Instead, Cheany hid in an underground bunker somewhere, and Bush froze in front of a group of preschoolers. They looked like cowards, acted like cowards, and behaved like idiots.

Does it make ANY sense at all that the would go through the monumental coordination to do all of these things and NOT think of what might happen right after? About how they would LOOK? This administration is all about appearances!

» RE: One thing Posted by: nha16
» I can't forget, I won't forget Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: One thing Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: One thing Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: One thing Posted by: MrAllen
» Subcontracting Posted by: johndoraemi
Hank
Posted by: hankgeorge on Dec 11, 2006 6:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the folks from NATION need to spend more time studying the evidence for the 9/11 "conspiracy theory" and less time railing against it in an uninformed manner which really smacks of the mainstream media. Our issues with the regime start with this treason and go from there. You can see the pace of criticism of our views accelerating. Good. As they say, folks, "first they ignore you, then they attack you, then you win." This country needs a new nonpartisan 9/11 commission more than it needs an end to the Iraq war or any other single measure that we collectively advocate. This crime cannot go unpunished, not in an era when we are blessed with the Internet so that we can research the facts and show them for what they are. There is no place for the perps to hide now...so they criticize us without having any credible evidence to support their "conspiracy theory" which looks more and more like a scam - no, a heinous crime - perpetrated on the American people. When they finish using the gallows on Hussein, they need to pack it up and send it over here...

9-11 understandings--one,,,
Posted by: John Rice on Dec 11, 2006 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
,,,step at a time.

Keep proof that the 9-11 Commission Report was factually and scientifically wrong, straightforward, simple, uncluttered and scientifically valid.

No one (credible) disputes that enough heat can allow structural steel to lose strength and deform--that it is (no matter how unlikely) theoretically possible for temperatures (for the only times in the history of the earth) to have gotten hot enough for structural steel to fail from fire (even though the structural steel in the WTC buildings was certified to withstand 2000F for at least 6 hours and failed in one case in less than one hour). (Structural steel failure from fire causing a skyscraper to collapse hasn’t happened anywhere else on this planet before, since or especially then—on 9-11.)

The problem with the official explanation is in two parts:

1. The pools of molten steel found in the lower levels of all three WTC steel-framed skyscrapers (1, 2 and 7) can not be denied, nor are they otherwise explained.

2. It takes minimum temperatures near or preferably above (depending upon specific alloy) the 2850 F range for steel to melt and flow into pools, and no one has yet to offer an explanation for that high a heat source, that is, other than from the use of thermite/thermate demolition explosives.

The problem pointing to the smoking-gun lie of the 9-11 Commission Report is that there is no plausible explanation for any possible heat source of temperatures anywhere near high enough to account for the pools of molten steel, other than with the use of thermite/thermate demolition explosives meaning it had to be an inside job. Case closed.

This means that the official explanation is wrong—that 9-11 was an inside job—and that the crime as well as its cover-up have been perpetrated by our own government—and to take it one step further, and even worse, the lies and cover-ups have been bipartisan.

Please--I invite the article's author (as well as all of the other naysayer respondents) to dispute the above assertions with disputative facts.

We must open new investigations into 9-11 and all that has happened as a result, or kiss our democratic republic good-bye forever.

Regards,,,John
( john_rice@neitherparty.org )

» RE: 9-11 understandings--one,,, Posted by: ladyoracle
» pools of molten steel? Posted by: rockpicker
» Watch 9/11 Mysteries.. Posted by: harpy
If you're serious about learning the Truth.
Posted by: nha16 on Dec 11, 2006 7:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Visit 911:Press For Truth. Paul Thompson offers well documented bits of truth and puts them all together to show that a huge coverup is occurring around 911. If you don't trust mere speculation, or if you're denial is so deep you can't look at anything scientific, just look at what the Corporate Media has reported. 911:Press For Truth will show you.

Argue all you want, left-reasonable-all-knowing-gatekeepers. We, the American Public, OWE THE FAMILIES OF 911 VICTIMS the TRUTH (not to mention the families of the hundreds of thousands of other George Bush Co. victims) no matter how long it takes. Watch Paul's film, and you'll reach the same conclusion. We have to stop being afraid of Organized Criminals. As a nation, we must find a way to put a stop to these horrific crimes and their predictable coverups.

unimpressive
Posted by: ladyoracle on Dec 11, 2006 7:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no "antedote" for the 9/11 Truth Movement because of the scientific validity that supports its theories.

Get a clue and don't be discounting science because it's "obscure"; that makes you what the Bush regime needs to hold its power.

The Official Story is Lie and so is this Article
Posted by: gary_7vn on Dec 11, 2006 7:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how much time Hayes has spent actually investigating the evidence and the questions raised by the 911 Truth Movement, at least how much time without a knowing smirk on his face.

No one is asking why the telephone poles were not hit during the attack on the Pentagon Christopher. The telephone poles were clipped, several of them. What we are asking (among literally thousands of other serious questions) is how a terrible pilot, who was not allowed to rent a small plane after they saw how badly he flew, was able to do pull off an immensely difficult aerial attack.

Questions about what temperature steel melts at, and whether the alleged cell calls were even possible at altitude are not "minutiae", they are incredibly important. Trials in the real world are almost always based on such "minutiae" Christopher. And yes steel does weaken when it gets hot. So what Christopher? The question is how hot did the steel get? And following that, how does "weakened" steel translate into 3 unprecedented collapses? Firefighters present at the scene described the fires at the impact point as "light and isolated"; hardly hot enough to "weaken" steel. One of the towers was hit a glancing blow, and even an idiot can see from the pictures that the vast amount of fuel blew out the side.

Instead of discussing the issues, Hayes uses one of the Rovian tactics of the Bush/Cheney junta to discredit serious questions by lumping people like Griffin and Jones in with true idiots who apparently don't even believe that there were any planes that day. It's kind of like saying, support the President, Brittney Spears does.

Bad for America Christopher? Ha ha ha, what's bad for America Christopher is your forces killing millions of people all over the world since WWII to stop "communism" - or is that a conspiracy theory Christopher? What's bad for America is a puffed up dilettante spending a couple of hours scanning 911 "conspiracy" sites and then thinking he can offer criticism and advice to those of us how have spent thousands of hours on the subject.

The real problem is psychological, people like Hayes have probably never encountered true evil in their lives and they think that monsters look like monsters. No, they don't they look just like you and me, and of course Cheney and Bush who have killed at LEAST 30,000 Iraqis and as many as what, 600,000, and who then go out and kiss babies.

Don't tell me what to talk about, or believe Mr. Hayes. It's a bad precedent Chris, because if it was up to me, your credulous, ill thought out, poorly researched drivel would not be published. But it is not my descision Christopher, nor anyone else's, and that's a good thing.

» About the cellphone calls... Posted by: mjabele
» Sorry, don't think so... Posted by: mjabele
read the conspiracy rebuttals at 911myths.com: very convincing
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 11, 2006 7:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had always been intrigued by the conspirary claims surrounding 9/11 as they were everywhere, sounded scientific and had some plausibility in the basic evilness of the ruthless Bush/Cheney team. But a few months ago I did what I should have done long ago: look up the rebuttals. Because that's the correct approach. The results were somewhat shocking: For the six hours I spent reading all the popular claims turned out to be garbage cobbled together by amateurs. Even the occasional academic in the mix turns out to be doing a whack job.
Please: do your homework and do the reading. Start at 911myths.com
It will all evaporate when you read how much explosives it would actually take at every single of the 60 or so pillars of the WTC towers, how much room that takes up, how impossible it would be to get it into place unnoticed. Read that the much emailed account of a self proclaimed flight expert is contradicted and shown to be garbage by a real pilot and flight instructor, read how the residue that a failed physics prof from a Mormon university claims could only result from explosives were not collected at the WTC7 site but in fact were air samples from the area that are more easily explained by the residue from the 10s of thousands of plastics (eg from computer cases) that burned. And on and on. What it really shows is that in America in the 21st century people have lost the basic approach to reasoning. I guess the terrorists have won (such as the anti-intellectual forces in this society).

» RE: "some of the evidence"? Posted by: channing
» Now THAT was a diatribe. LOL Posted by: Prophit
» HA HA Posted by: gretavo
» It's not about the demoliton Posted by: johndoraemi
that dog won't hunt.
Posted by: antiapathy on Dec 11, 2006 7:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have always suspected that the administration is capable of such a heinous act, but I have never seen credible evidence that that is the case. And I have spent a fair amount of time examining the evidence on the net. The MSM certainly has done a good job of painting the "truthies" as tin-foil-hat wearing loonies, which is enough to make me wonder if they (the truthies) might be onto something...

The main reason I don't buy the theory is that it hasn't been picked up by any of the investigative journalists I trust. The people who lob healthy amounts of skepticism at the government. They tend to agree that the govt. really screwed the pooch in letting it happen, and that it tried to cover up the saudi invovlement, but those journalists don't see the government as directly causing 9/11.

» RE: that dog won't hunt. Posted by: counterpoint
» please link the palast article Posted by: antiapathy
I believe everything, I believe nothing about 9/11, but how about some answers?
Posted by: profmarcus on Dec 11, 2006 7:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to me, the "rabbit hole of delusion" is when the american people, having been force-fed the belief that our country is fundamentally good and that our leaders, while they may be incompetent, could never stoop to such dastardly deeds, refuse to accept that these same leaders could indeed be capable of genuine atrocities... the united states is not immune to a pinochet, particularly when it's the u.s. who often gives a pinochet the means to carry out his crimes...

do i believe our leaders are capable of atrocities...? yes... do i believe our current leaders have committed atrocities...? yes, and from all that's come out so far, they indeed HAVE committed atrocities... do i believe there's a great deal we still don't know...? yes... do i believe that what we still don't know will horrify us even more than what we already know...? yes... do i believe our government orchestrated the 9/11 attacks...? i don't know... do i believe it's possible...? yes... do i WANT to believe they did it...? no... do i believe there's too many unanswered questions about 9/11...? yes, absolutely... and that last point is where i find myself aligned with the 9/11 truth movement... i want those answers, and i don't believe that seeking them is falling down "the rabbit hole of delusion..."

in closing, am i skeptical of those insisting that 9/11 was a conspiracy of the u.s. government...? yes... am i skeptical of those insisting it WASN'T...? yes...

http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/

You can't handle the Truth.
Posted by: billyboy43 on Dec 11, 2006 7:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the administration says happened - that 1 man in a cave in Afganistan and 19 Arabs who couldn't fly a piper out o flight school could have eluded the U.S. Air Force and defenses and executed the attacks - is also a conspiracy theory with a different set of suspects. It is difficult for the average American to imagine there are forces within the U.S governement who would actually do this, or job it out to the likes of RAND or other defense contractors, because it upsets their belief system. Research other such plans and actions - the Northwood Project, Gulf of Tonkin fake attack, etc. Read the books Crossing the Rubicon and 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism.
Decide for yourself after the research and disallow anyone else to think for you.

» Cognitive Dissonance Posted by: gary_7vn
Who profits?
Posted by: covalentbonded on Dec 11, 2006 7:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush and his Cabal of Evil to start. The multi-national oil companies busy carving up Iraq. The multi-national defense contractors.

But really, where was the Secret Service when America was "under attack" and Bush sat in a vulnerable location for over 30 minutes? Who authorized the SOP for dealing with errant/highjacked aircraft effective 6/1/01? What happened to the FAA warnings sent to airlines (57 general 6 specific) during the spring and summer of 01? Who gave the airlines these warnings? What was the title of the August 6th, PDB?
How could Bush have seen the first plane hit which he claimed to have seen in Dec in Fla. and in Jan. in California?

Why is Alter-Net so eager to dispute the so-called "conspiracy theorists" without mentioning the fact that the "official story" is, in and of itself, a conspracy theory?

9/11 PARANOIA - 9/11 EVERYTHING
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Dec 11, 2006 7:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have been force fed 9/11 since that day. I live 50mi. from NYC. I went to see it. It has been used & abused by Bush to make a case for war and to remind us of how afraid we should be. It provided him with ammunition to back up every lie we've been told. What happened that day was bad enough but Bush managed to make it and us worse. He turned a national disaster into an ad campaign and most people bought into in. Where's Osama bin Laden? Thanks, ANNA

Critical Thinking
Posted by: barryr on Dec 11, 2006 7:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you agree that people are right to be skeptical, both of the government and the media, but come to different conclusions than you, is the issue really their psychological state? Wouldn't it be more productive to address the general population's critical thinking skills?

The author points to reports by one set of engineers and physicists and says the matter is resolved and then leaps to the conclusions that people who don't agree are paranoid and are bad politically for Our Side (and so they should shut up).

Everyone who is wrong should shut up? Only people who are correct should speak up?

If people have come to different conclusions than you, and those conclusions matter to you, then you must address them with reason and facts. You have failed to convince them so far.

Developing the general population's critical thinking skills would help. What tools do we have for separating fact from fiction, especially in a world where both the government and the media engage in continuous spin?

It's the PHYSICS, Stupid!
Posted by: lobdillj on Dec 11, 2006 7:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a physicist. Until two weeks ago I wouldn't even listen to anyone who I identified as a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. It was preposterous that any president, even GWB, would authorize a false flag operation on US soil that would kill thousands of innocent US citizens.

Then I read http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html and everything changed for me. I don't know about any of the alternate theories about 9/11, but I do know that it is impossible for the towers to have collapsed in the time that it actually took unless they were brought down by controlled demolition. It's the physics, stupid!

» What about the holes? Posted by: rockpicker
» RE: possibly joking? Posted by: channing
» How Bizzar can we get! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Special physics for dentists Posted by: theracerace
» RE: It's the PHYSICS, Stupid! Posted by: Sam Thornton
» RE: It's the PHYSICS, Stupid! Posted by: gary_7vn
Nazi Evidence? What about Gleiwitz?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Dec 11, 2006 7:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like some sources about the Reichstag fire because I've always heard, from nice liberal professors, that the Nazi's did it to pretext their rise to power.

Also, though this article suspiciously won't mention it, is the pretext for the Nazi invasion of Poland and the false-flag operation Gleiwitz. This is where the Nazi's faked a Polish 'attack' on a German broadcasting station and therefore had to 'save' the German ethnics in Poland by invading in 1939. This was a part of Operation Himmler which was design to find/make pretexts for the Polish invasion. I think that this was an accepted fact by historians since documents were found and witnesses. There was a good documentary made about it several decades a go.

Exposing the 9/11 Conspiracy Wingnuts
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 7:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I began researching the mainstream media coverage of the controversy regarding the attacks of 9/11/2001, when reading an article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Newspaper, dated June 29th, 2006. It was titled, "Sept. 11 claim stirs UW probe -- Instructor says U.S. planned the attacks to provoke war." This led to my discovery of some wild conspiracy theorists that endanger our government and media establishments, with quite frankly insane assertions. I'll address this in full in the final paragraph.

Read this entire article at:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13969.htm

One of the loudest advocates of the most damning charge that "members of the U.S. government actually orchestrated the events of 9/11 to fool the nation into unpopular wars", was a prominent Republican, a Former Chief Economist under George Bush, and professor at Texas A&M, Morgan Reynolds.

Others demanding a new investigation of 9/11:
- Former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force, under President Reagan, and combat fighter pilot Col. Robert Bowman (Caltech Phd in aeronautics and nuclear engineering).
- Former CIA Intelligence Advisor to Reagan and George HW Bush and founder of the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, Ray McGovern
-Kevin Ryan, former department head at UL (Underwriter Laboratories) the company which certified the steel which went into the WTCs upon their construction, and inspected it after the WTC collapses in 2001.
-Former assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury Senior Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Research Fellow at Stanford's Independent Institute, and former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, Paul Craig Roberts
-Canadian National Defense Minister, the Honourable Paul Hellyer
-Minister for the Environment, and Member of Parliament (United Kingdom) Michael Meacher
-National Minister of Defense (Germany). Also, served as Minister of Technology Andreas Von Bulow
-Former Chief of Staff of the Russian armed forces, and chief of the department for General affairs in the Soviet Union 's ministry of Defense, General Leonid Ivashov

So, now that we've examined the two main issues of concern for the television news interviewers AND ALTERNET, which was the "fringe" aspect of the questioners, and the "sanity/expertise" issue, it appears those arguments are very weak arguments, really with no merit at all.

Obviously tens of millions of Americans, according to polls, want a new investigation into 9/11/2001 and have a strong suspicion of U.S. government involvement at some level. Obviously not all of the national defense, intelligence, aeronautics, physics and engineering experts questioning the official story of 9/11 are insane or unqualified to comment.

Learn of more intelligence, military, defense, and other experts demanding a real 9/11 investigation at:

Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government
Critics of 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

I find it truly bizarre, that publications like ALTERNET would advocate "not demanding the truth of an event that has led us into two illegal wars, and warped the world into a permanent war mindset." It is just as bizarre as Cheney and Bush calling Daschle and ordering him NOT TO INVESTIGATE 9/11. Something is rotten in Denmark, and ALTERNET seems to be part of the aroma.

So-called Progressives
Posted by: badkitty68 on Dec 11, 2006 7:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is a good example of why I d/c'd my subscription to The Nation. Not to mention the rambling, overly lengthy articles that seem to go nowhere....

» RE: So-called Progressives Posted by: BillDouglas
» Typical conspiracy-mongering Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Typical conspiracy-mongering Posted by: BillDouglas
» Wear the shoe yourself Posted by: brunowe
» Another bogus number Posted by: brunowe
Physics
Posted by: Grimnir on Dec 11, 2006 8:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is physics, not paranoia, that makes the official, government-sanctioned version of 9/11 untenable. It is physics that will eventually reveal the culprits. Following the physics, and physical evidence, is the only way to reach the guilty. That was made infinitely harder when the government, in unseemly haste, removed most of the physical evidence, under guard, to be sold to India and other places. It is physics that will tell us why. Physics has no political agenda.

» RE: Physics Posted by: counterpoint
» It doesn't work that way... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Physics Posted by: dvw7
Motamanx
Posted by: motamanx on Dec 11, 2006 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't really know why the towers fell. But I do know that it wasn't an airliner that hit the Pentagon, because no airliner was found. And if that part of the story is bogus (and there's no way one could reasonably think otherwise), then what about the rest of it?
It all went bananas when Bush would not testify without Cheney, and that they both refused to testify under oath?
Where the hell is that at?!

gate keeper Hayes
Posted by: JonPaul on Dec 11, 2006 8:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is a perfect example of a seemingly progressive writer acting as gate keepr against 911 truth.
The only way to see this issue in the way that Hayes expresses it here is if you shut your eyes and wear ear plugs whenever presented with the truth.

you need specific technical expertise, not just "physics"
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 11, 2006 8:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not sufficient to deduce from general physics, one needs to be an expert in the specific fields of civil engineering, construction, demolition etc. The folks paraded by the believers are typically without such expertise. My wife is an aquatic chemist with an engineering degree and a PhD from top universities but her theoretical expertise gives her very limited purchase for any problems that environmental engineers in the field have to solve; hers would be armchair philosophy.
Popular Mechanics pulled people with real expertise together and it's reasonable to assume that their answers will be closer to an explanation than the far fetched musings of what amounts to lay people.

Why Towers Fell
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 8:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) Jet fuel does not burn nearly hot enough to weaken steel.
2) Even if it did, the official story asks us to believe that fires on 3 or 4 floors, simultaneously weakened the steel in over 90 floors at the exact same moment.
3) Firefighters below those floors on fire reported they were controllable fires they could put out (then seconds later the explosions were set off).
4) Firefighters and others heard explosions throughout the WTCs before the collapses.
5) Controlled demolition of the WTCs is the most likely explanation of the collapses, but how could thermate charges have been placed in the buildings prior to 9/11?
6) GW Bush's brother, Marvin, and also GW's cousin were at the head of Securacom, the Kuwaiti based security company in charge of the WTCs leading up to 9/11.
7) Employees in the WTCs reported security anomalies in days leading up to 9/11, including security shut downs, evacuations of floors, and the cancelling of scheduled bomb sniffing dog routines.

8) THE THREE WTC BUILDINGS . . . WERE THE FIRST THREE STEEL REINFORCED BUILDINGS IN ENGINEERING HISTORY TO EVER BE COLLAPSED DUE TO FIRE AND/OR EXTERNAL DAMAGE. Three history making collapses, all in one day, and one building (#7) was not even hit by a plane that day.

If you'd bet on that reality in Los Vegas you'd be a rich man.

oh yeah,

9) There are many rich men or women, who did know the attacks were coming on 9/11/2001, who made stock bets against AA and UA airlines, in the form of put options in days leading up to 9/11. They did make a fortune. Millions were made at an institution called AB Brown Trust, with CIA connections. The head of AB Brown quietly resigned on 9/11/2001 with no media scrutiny. $2.5 million of the winnings are still unclaimed.

I don't think its too much to ask The Nation or ALTERNET to look into these facts. Do you?

» RE: Why Towers Fell Posted by: Edward George
» RE: Why Towers Fell Posted by: timebomb734
Popular Mechanics - Propagandists
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 8:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who refers to the Popular Mechanics piece as "authoritative" in any way, is either a ditto head, or part of the cover up.

Here's why. The Popular Mechanics piece and the authors resort to name calling, and psychoanalsys of anyone who questions the obviously questionable official 9/11 story.

If they were indeed interested in the facts and science, they would not play the role of what the Soviet press used to play, when they questioned the "sanity" of the dissidents, rather than dealing with the facts they had put forth.

We see the mainstream and "left" media do this again and again to anyone calling the official story's spurious facts what they are, disinformation. Our media, and many of the ditto heads who parrot them, have been sovietized. We've been lied to about 9/11. Visit 911weknow.com.

Actor, James Brolan, who appeared on the network program "The View" last week urged all to visit www.911weknow.com

Those on the West Coast heard him, but Central and Eastern delayed showings pre-empted him with a cut-a-way to the Iraq Study Group report. How convenient.

One has to wonder if AlterNet isn't placing this 9/11 truth hit piece to counter the spark of reality and truth actor James Brolin exposed millions to last week.

Some questions for conspiracists.
Posted by: fanny666 on Dec 11, 2006 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The official story is that almost all of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Why? Why wouldn't Bush et al say they were Iraqi?

Why would Bush et al attack the Twin Towers, of all things? Why attack a hub of the military-industrial complex? Why not a football game or a wal-mart- why murder business leaders?

Bush et al can do nearly nothing right- was this the most effective, perfectly planned and executed thing they have ever done?

Did Bush meet with bin Laden? In Afghanistan, perhaps? Did they plan the whole thing together, was bin Laden actually not involved, or what?

People constantly talk about the melting point of steel vs the burning temp of jet fuel. Did the WTC steel have to be liquified to cause the collapse? Drip towards the ground?

» OPERATIONAL CONTROL Posted by: johndoraemi
» RE: OPERATIONAL CONTROL cont'd Posted by: johndoraemi
Strike 2 Alternet...
Posted by: peacechicken on Dec 11, 2006 9:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does AlterNet insist on running anti-9/11 Truth stories? Why are they so hostile towards skepticism of the official story? It's making me really close to removing them from my newsfeed and saying enough.

What's at stake for them that they feel the need to stop being progressive when it comes to 9/11 Truth?

» RE: Strike 2 Alternet... Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Strike 2 Alternet... Posted by: BillDouglas
» RE: Strike 2 Alternet... Posted by: DRosen
Author of 9/11 Truth Not Being Honest
Posted by: Timbro on Dec 11, 2006 9:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Scholars for 9/11 Truth are NOT in the same category as those who are pursuing conspiracy theories with blind emotional zeal. The author's inability to see their careful and scholarly search for facts as different shows he is doing exactly what he fears will happen to the country that continues to speculate on a variety of paranoid emotional conspiracies. This article does a great dissservice to all progressives.

Who Did It?
Posted by: rwa on Dec 11, 2006 9:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Government refuses to authenticate bin Laden “confession video”


August 11, 2006 – In response to the July 10, 2006 Freedom of Information Act request made by the Muckraker Report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation regarding the authenticity of the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden “confession video” in which Osama bin Laden allegedly confesses his involvement and masterminding of 9/11, the FBI said:

The material you requested is located in an investigative file which is exempt from disclosure pursuant to Title 5, United States Code, Section 552, subsection (b)(7)(A).


On December 13, 2001 the United States Department of Defense released the videotape allegedly of Osama bin Laden confessing to his involvement with the events of September 11, 2001. The DoD also issued Press Release No. 630-01, which indicated that the “confession video” was obtained by U.S. forces in Jalalabad, Afghanistan in late November 2001.



In the Muckraker Report FOIA the following documents were requested:



1. Documents related to the discovery of the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden video



2. Documents that demonstrate chain of custody of the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden video from the time it was discovered in Afghanistan until it was released for media consumption



3. Documents that demonstrate an Israeli connection to the discovery of the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden video – whether that connection be the IDF, Mossad, Israeli mercenaries, or any other person or agency influenced or controlled by the state of Israel



4. Documents that reflect the purchase order and contract made by the U.S. government with George Michael, reported in DoD Press Release 630-01 to have been responsible for the translation of the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden video.



5. Documents that demonstrate the authenticity process that the U.S. government undertook to authenticate the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden video



6. Documents that demonstrate the outcome of the U.S. government’s authenticity process. What the Muckraker Report is seeking is a copy of an original U.S. government document that reflects the U.S. government declaring the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden video as authentic, not authentic, or suspect of authenticity



Please note that the Information Dissemination Section of the FBI did not respond to the Muckraker Report’s Freedom of Information Act Request by indicating that the documentation requested did not exist. It said that the material you requested is located in an investigative file which is exempt from disclosure pursuant to Title 5, United States Code, Section 552, subsection (b)(7)(A).



So what does Title 5, United States Code, Section 552, subsection (b)(7)(A) say? According to the Explanation of Exemptions sheet included in the government response to Muckraker Report FOIA request:



(b)(7) records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information (A) could be reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings



It’s anyone’s guess as to what (b)(7)(A) actually means, but it smells like more cover-up to me. One can only assume that the interfere with enforcement proceedings segment means that if the truth were to be revealed to the world regarding the circumstances and authenticity of the December 13, 2001 Osama bin Laden confession video, the neo con would have a one dickens of a time enforcing its current policies – both foreign and domestic.

Why, why, why, why
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 9:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do those who want so desperately to believe the unbelievable official govt. 9/11 story, keep asking why, why, why of those pointing out the inconsistency and impossibility of the official 9/11 story . . . but they never turn those keen minds toward the actual official story that is so unbelievable?

Yes, the CIA station chief in Dubai met with Bin Laden not long before the 9/11 attacks.

Of course Al Qaeda is actually a CIA creation. Al Quaeda means "the database." When the CIA helped fund, train, and create the Muhadeen in Afghanistan to terrorize the Soviet supported govt. in Kabul . . . they kept names in a "database." That database became what is now "Al Quaeda."

Several of the supposed 19 hijackers were trained on US military bases. The US govt. covert ops has been working with/using Arabs from the database, or Al Queda network for decades.

If they needed 19 patsies to blame, they are the natural choice to be set up and used.

Did anyone notice how
A) No one in the govt. dreamed of such a thing happening on 9/11.
but, only a couple hours after it happened, they knew exactly who did it, and had their photos and bios handy for massive press releases worldwide?

» RE: Why, why, why, why Posted by: gary_7vn
» RE: Why, why, why, why Posted by: willymack
Long List of "Fringe Kooks"
Posted by: Welfl on Dec 11, 2006 9:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, Alternet & The Nation! What do all the "fringe kooks" listed below have in common? Click here to find out. You should join them.

Fmr Sen. Max Cleland (D)

Rep. Curt Weldon (R) [Never mind his "sudden" ethical problems. What republican in Washington doesn't have ethical problems?]

Fmr Senator Bob Graham

Senator Mark Dayton

Louis Freeh, Director of the FBI, 1993-2001

Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Chief Economist, U.S. Dept of Labor under George W. Bush 2001-2002

Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Asst Secretary of the U.S. Treasury under Ronald Reagan

Catherine Austin Fitts, Asst Secretary of Housing under George H.W. Bush

John Loftus, former Federal Prosecutor, Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Dept of Justice under Presidents Carter & Reagan

Edward L. Peck, Deputy Director of the White House Task Force on Terrorism under Ronald Reagan. Former Deputy Coordinator, Covert Intelligence Programs at the State Department

Morton Goulder, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence & Warning under Presidents Nixon, Ford & Carter

Fred Burks, former State Dept Interpreter for Presidents George W. Bush & Bill Clinton, Vice Presidents Dick Cheney & Al Gore

Daniel Ellsberg, PhD, former Special Asst to the Assistant Secretary of Defense

Philip J. Berg, former Deputy Attorney General, Pennsylvania

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret)

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Deputy Asst Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration

Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Director of Advanced Space Programs Development "Star Wars Program"

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret)

Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret)

Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army (ret)

Capt. Scott J. Phillpott, U.S. Navy

Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Former Executive Asst to the Director of the NSA

Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the NSA

Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, former Marine Corps Intelligence Officer & Chief Weapons Inspector for the United Nations Special Commission in Iraq 1991-1998

Barbara Honegger, White House Policy Analyst & Special Asst to the Asst to President Ronald Reagan (1981-83)

Lt. Col. Stephen L. Butler, EdD, U.S. Air Force (ret)

Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army

Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret)

Raymond L. McGovern, former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President’ Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan & George H.W. Bush

William Christison, former National Intelligence Officer & Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis

Robert David Steele (Vivas), U.S. Marine Corps

Melvin A. Goodman, Division Chief & Senior Analyst at the Office of Soviet Affairs, CIA, 1966 - 1990

Robert Baer, former CIA Case Officer, Specialist in the Middle East, Directorate of Operations.

Sibel D. Edmonds, former Language Translation Specialist, FBI

Bogdan Dzakovic, 14-year Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of FAA

Steve Elson, former Special Agent with the U.S. Navy, DEA & FAA. Specialist in Counterterrorism, Intelligence & Security

William G. Weaver, JD, PhD, former Army Signals Intelligence officer

[And many more]

» By the Way... Posted by: Welfl
» You are misrepresenting Posted by: fanny666
» RE: You are misrepresenting Posted by: fanny666
» RE: You are misrepresenting Posted by: fanny666
Alternet, I know what they have in common
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEY REALIZE THE OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A LIE. Face it, we are not kooks. We are dealing with the reality we've been lied to about 9/11.

Is Whitewashing bad for the country??
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Dec 11, 2006 9:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is 9/11 Paranoia Bad for the Country?

I first came across this argument many months ago, and I wrote a blog entry that god me banned from paranoidKos The 9/11 Attack Dog Movement

It is a totally bogus argument. For one thing, a certain level of paranoia is justified. Look at JFK. This guy never bothers to mention what he thought of JFK conspiracies. (Probably because he didn't want to totally destroy his credibility among rational thinking people!)

Go to google video and type in "JFK Bush". (I can't link to it because of the commenting system here, but it is the first result for that search.) Watch Peter Jennings starting at 8:20 of that video. Watch him lie like they always do, or did. They can't just lie like that any more. Nowadays, they have to attack straw men, because bold face lies are too discrediting.

The reason people like this write articles like this is because the media has kept most of us totally ignorant of the history of false flag operations and attached a label of paranoia to any conspiracy theory that comes along. Well now enough people are wising up to this. The whole paranoia argument is totally bogus. The more you learn, the less paranoid you will become. Paranoia is something that they ssume will follow from investigating conspiracies, but that logic does not follow.

The purpose of this article is purely establishment damage control. The only thing bad for this country is all the lies and coverups. Call it paranoia if you want. I don't believe it is.

Fake Left
Posted by: rwa on Dec 11, 2006 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Full spectrum dominance of media.
Fundamental myths are re-inforced or defended.
True dissidents are marginalized or defamed.
Every critical issue is presented from the dominant position.
Parameters of debate are narrowed to exclude that which truly threatens the establishment.

Why did this 9/11 truth hit piece surface now?
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 9:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why did this 9/11 truth hit piece surface now?

I think this piece came out because last week director David Lynch (on Dutch National TV), and actor James Brolin (on ABC's The View) said 9/11 was an inside job. Charlie Sheen was one of the first, following many military and defense experts who felt 9/11 was an inside job had come out. Bruce Willis, and others have had their heads turned around once they looked at the facts of 9/11.

This writer is obviously part of the damage control. 9/11 truth is springing out in so many places, they can't put enough fingers in the dam fast enough.

The truth will out. It always does in the end.

"Trust the Gatekeepers," LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!
Posted by: YinRising on Dec 11, 2006 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"To avoid such a fate, the public must come to trust that the gatekeepers of public discourse share their skepticism about the agenda its government is pursuing."

The author should have put that paragraph near the beginning instead of near the end so I wouldn't have wasted as much time as I did reading it.

Notice the author NEVER mentions building 7.

Katrina
Posted by: McJulie on Dec 11, 2006 9:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Katrina was the thing that really convinced me the Bush Administration did not deliberately orchestrate the 9/11 attacks.

Bush has a pattern of semi-deliberate incompetence which has been completely consistent through all three of their big disasters: 9/11, the Iraq Invasion, and Katrina. The pattern is this:

1. Receive warnings.
2. Ignore warnings.
3. Disaster occurs.
4. Spin disaster as something nobody could possibly have predicted, in spite of documented warnings.
5. Spin disaster as perfect reason to carry out some pre-existing agenda item.

The only difference is that Katrina had no #5 -- there was no propaganda purpose that was served by it, so there was no "we'll protect you from the terrorists" spin, no "we're at war so no questioning the president" spin.

» RE: Katrina Reason #5 Posted by: rwa
» RE: Katrina Posted by: Iconoclast421
Trust me?
Posted by: collective_intel on Dec 11, 2006 9:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...the public must come to trust ... the gatekeepers of public discourse ..."

Never trust anyone that says "Trust me." They only say it when they know they have duly lost credibility. As in, "Trust me, this previously owned vehicle is ideal for your needs..."

And who is gatekeeping the gatekeepers anyway?

» RE: Trust me? Posted by: rwa
Diaappointed with The Nation
Posted by: Redhead5050 on Dec 11, 2006 9:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read this article when I first received my copy of The Nation...what a disappointing article. Does this guy work for the Fox industrial complex? When I subscribed to The Nation, I expected better than this lack of investigative reporting. I hope future issues are more thoughtful and insightful. I'm disappointed with the lack of inquisitiveness about the truth and the scolding regarding considering the "minutiae" that will lead to the truth.

We, as Americans, must hold those responsible in this governments regime for the deaths of our fellow Americans. All of the continuing disasters brought about by the greed of the Bushies stem from the 9-11 truth. I believe, like many, many others, that the folks who produced Loose Change got it right. We need to ask a good deal more questions, and insist upon documentation that this regime is refusing to present.

Who does believe the official story?
Posted by: vangogh69 on Dec 11, 2006 9:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean, at this point, can Bush & Co. be trusted to tell the truth about anything? I suppose the measure of a "real American" is the ability to be naive and ignorant beyond belief. This damn article is just another person sticking their head in the sand when presented with truths which shake their paradigms.

I don't proclaim to know for certain what happened that day, but I know there are too many things that are suspect. Off the top of my head:

1)No steel-reinforced skyscrappers have EVER collapsed before or since due to fire.
2)If there was a "raging Inferno" in those buildings, why didn't it look that way outside?
3)Why did WTC7 fall?
4)Why did Silverstein have a sweet insurance deal worked out on that property prior?
5)Why did the EPA allow lower Manhattan to remain populated knowing the WTCs were 70% coated with abestoes for fireproofing?
6) Why haven't multiple videos surfaced of what hit the Pentagon?

And on and on. I mean, for those who think our gov. is above murdering it's own citizens, just look to Operation Northwoods or even, more recent history, how the CIA helped funnel cocaine and crack into the US (a fact which the CIA has since admitted). I know it's hard, but when the truth looks at you the only thing to do is stand your ground.

Ok, I'm getting redundant here, but...
Posted by: pball on Dec 11, 2006 10:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...will somebody please explain to me, in simple little words (because I'm obviously too thick-skulled and obtuse to see the SIMPLE TRUTH!)...how the Bushies were able to pull off what would be one of the most complex and involved completely black ops in the history of mankind and keep it together enough so that the evidence is quite definitely debatable (I'm sure some will call it "incontrovertible" and "clear as day", and while I'm not a demo expert, I know that for a tower built like the Twins you need to cut the structural skeleton with shaped charges and while the collapse LOOKS controlled, I sure as hell don't see any cutting charges going off below the actual pancaking...watch one of the many shows on TLC/Discovery/&c about demolitions, I've never not seen charges exploding...but I'm ranting)...how these people were able to pull this off so remarkably well and then so totally screw the pooch on Iraq.

Hell - I'm going to go so far as to postulate that any group that could pull off a scheme on that scale could and would have just directly and covertly undertaken Middle East ops to accomplish their goals of a US corporate hegemony across the region. I mean, really...it's like being able to directly rob the bank and get away with it clean, but instead you burn the city undetected, and then try and just stroll into the bank - even if you do get the money the situation's so fucked it won't do you any good.

I can totally buy incompetence on the administration's part, even willful negligence in pre-knowledge of something coming - but I can't logically reconcile a James Bond-style giant global conspiracy with the ensuing hilarity. Damn science degree, simplest explanations..

I may be paranoid, but I least I don't believe in this nonsense:
Posted by: MonkeyBoy on Dec 11, 2006 10:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
True believers of the Official 9/11 Story also typically completely accept the following without question:

1 - That the world was created in 6 days, including the earth, sky. plants, animals and human life.

2 - The world is not more than 6,000 years old, if you add up the timeline of generations born in the bible.

3 - A man was told by God about an impending flood that would destroy the earth. He had to plant trees for the massive beams needed to build an ark, which took hundreds of years to grow. He constructed the ark, big enough to hold 2 of every animal on earth, which he rounded up in his spare time. After 40 days of rain, it came to rest on a mountainside some 10,000 feet above current sea level in Turkey. By the way, this flood also gouged the Grand Canyon.

4 - People fled slavery in Egypt when the Red Sea parted long enough for them to run across the sea bed.

5 - A virgin was impregnated by an angel, and gave birth to the son of god a few weeks later.

6 - This son of God performed many miracles, including rising from the dead after 3 days following crucifixion by the Romans.

I ask you, who is crazier, those who believe this, or the those who are a bit skeptical about things?

"...the government either carried out the 9/11 attacks or intentionally allowed them to happen."
Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 11, 2006 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's as far as I got, because those two are so radically different that to even join them together in the same sentence is such a gross distortion, you might as well be talking to Donald Duck.

Too many questions left unanswered to debunk 911 truthers
Posted by: tlawiv on Dec 11, 2006 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While some evidence has been collected to backup certain aspects of the 'official story', it is far too sparse to completely debunk those who believe either the false-flag attack theory or the purposeful incompetence theory. If you guys can point me to websites that answer these questions, please do.

1) what happened to all the security cameras near the pentagon that would have shown an huge f*king airliner flying by 10 feet off the ground. It's been reported that these were all seized by the govt. officials. Or explain the fact that no evidence of an airliner crash was collected at the scene, yet a jet engine belonging to a fighter plane was found there.

2) While the jet fuel might have been hot enough to melt the steel enough to weaken the beams, there is no way that sucker would have gone down perfectly straight, and at a falling speed equal to maximum falling speed allowable by gravity. Nor does this explain eyewitness accounts of firemen hearing the 'pops' that accompany a controlled demolition. If it was all jet fuel, then the steel would have melted randomly and that sucker would have gradually toppled over in some unknown direction and probably taken down some other skyrises.
3) What explains the 'coincidence' that all the nearby fighter jets were doing a 'practice exercise' that morning and that's why they couldn't be scrambled in time.
4) what explains all the irregular stock transactions that occured right before that Tuesday.
I could probably dig up about another ten issues that are completely unaccounted for in the 'official story' and that is the problem. It makes way more sense that this was a conspiracy false-flag attack or at least coordinated with the attack that they knew was coming. The official story is so uncredible and full of holes that only a total sheep idiot american could believe it. I'd like to say to the johnny-come-latelys to the conspiracy crowd; "where were ya when it mattered" Where were all these people in 2004?
How many of you people believe that the Bush admin. handling of Katrina was just incompetence? How many of you believe that our 'incompetence' in Iraq was an accident? These are evil people who believe they have a birthright to extort from the non-wealthy at their whim and create circumstance for they and theirs to generate massive profit at the expense of everyone. You will see shortly with this oil privatization plan in Iraq exactly what the whole Iraq was was fought for. That and the fact that the hemorraging of our national treasury necessitated the cutting of most public services, and these people want to eliminate all public services, close schools and put the poor in prison. They've been doing that for over a 1000 years. These people believe that the non-rich are heritarily, morally deficient and are less than human and deserve whatever torment that afflicts them. They believe a big reason to use our military is to thin the population of non-rich people here and abroad.
I'm just saying, start seeing the big picture here, people.

The Press Not Lie?
Posted by: etyler on Dec 11, 2006 10:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What are the chances of that? Most of the media today is owned by the same defence contractors that are getting obscenely rich off the current, former, and future wars. You'll see the same faces around the board meetings of Viacom as you will Lockheed-Martin. They have no decency and no conscience, only the bottom line matters. As soon as the normal public amnesia sets in regarding Iraq, our troops will be in Iran.

My mama always told me to follow the money. Who's getting rich off 9-11? Does Haliburton ring a bell? And what name do we usually associate with that multinational?

This is ridiculous
Posted by: fanny666 on Dec 11, 2006 11:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does anybody grasp that one can realize that Bush has been dishonest about 9-11, as he is with everything else, and that this is NOT the same thing as "Bush did it."

What is this nonsense- "you are either with us or you're with the terrorists"? You either believe that Bush did it or you are "fake left" or "part of the cover-up" or otherwise on Bush's "side"?

Of course Bush told lies and covered up facts. Does this mean that he executed 9-11?

Chomsky calls the 9-11 conspiracy stuff "hopelessly implausable" ... perhaps he is working for the CIA as well.

» RE: This is ridiculous Posted by: DaBear
» RE: This is ridiculous Posted by: fanny666
» RE: This is ridiculous Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: This is ridiculous Posted by: Timbro
South Park got it right
Posted by: DaBear on Dec 11, 2006 11:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kyle did it. Those bastards.

» RE: South Park got it right Posted by: meddlehead
The Gatekeepers: Foundations fund phony "left" media
Posted by: emptyground on Dec 11, 2006 11:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check out this chart detailing a small sampling of globalist institutional funding of "left" media. (Alternet is on there!)

The obsession with Building 7
Posted by: fanny666 on Dec 11, 2006 11:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Building 7

I have *never* met or read a "Bush Did It" conspiracy enthusiast who knows some of the basic facts presented in this article.

Go ahead and skim it without reading, then call me an undercover CIA agent.

» RE: The obsession with Building 7 Posted by: Larry silverstein
» Drama and Science don't mix Posted by: YinRising
» Yawn... Posted by: fanny666
To the Person Who Asked HOW COULD THE BUSHIES PULL THIS OFF?
Posted by: BillDouglas on Dec 11, 2006 11:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was likely not Bush, for Bush is an errand boy. However, this is not as hard and huge as the 9/11 Official Story Nuts would have you believe.

1) WHY NO AIRFORCE INTERCEPTORS ON 9/11?
Cheney orders multiple war games to be held on 9/11. In fact one normally scheduled for Oct. 2001 was moved back so that it could be held on 9/11/2001 with the others.

These war games created fake blips on FAA and DOD screens across the country. This is why controllers couldn't tell what was real world and what was war game.

HOW TO SOLVE THIS:

Mr. Cheney, did you order the multiple war games on 9/11?
Mr. Cheney, why did you not call them off after the first plane hit the first tower on 9/11?
[Transportation Secretary testified to the 9/11 Commission, that on 9/11 he was in the White House Bunker with Cheney, as an aid kept entering the room, saying "Sir, the aircraft is 50 miles out." Then later, "Sir, it is now 30 miles out." Then later, "Sir, it is 12 miles out, do the orders still stand?"

Cheney snaps at the aid, "Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything different."

2) HOW COULD A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION OF THE WTC BUILDINGS BE ORCHESTRATED WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING?
GW Bush's brother Marvin was on the board of SECURICOM until just before 9/11/2001. On 9/11 Bush's Cousin was on the board. In days leading up to 9/11 there were "power outages" and "security anomalies" that blacked out whole parts of the WTCs leading up to 9/11. Just before 9/11 the normal bomb sniffing routines were called off.

With security arranged by GW's relatives, it would only take a fairly small group of demolition experts to set the charges in a couple of weeks, while security turned off power on key floors and gave them access. Most of security would be ignorant of what was going on.

3) HOW WERE THE PLANES FLOWN INTO BUILDINGS SO ACCURATELY WITH POORLY TRAINED ARAB PILOTS?
We don't know if the 19 Arabs were even on the planes. BBC reports show several are still alive and were never involved. The most likely scenario is that remote control was used to crash the three craft into the WTCs and the Pentagon. Planes have had remote control capability to take off, land, and fly around the world from some time.

4) Many FBI agents are now blowing the whistle that headquarters in Washington is and was quashing their 9/11 investigations that showed red flags. It only took a small group at the top of the FBI to quash those investigations.

5) The media. It was erie, or creepy if you will, to see the way the corporate media and then the left media swooped down to attack viscerally anyone who doubted the official story after 9/11. Would this require a vast conspiracy? No. It would only require a few key placed people in key positions so that in the editorial meetings at key publications there would be one person who upon seeing anyone bring up 9/11, would squeal, "WHAT, oh my God, we're not going to look at that lunatic crap, are we?"

This in effect kept key facts, and connected dots from being available to any journalist from any mainstream media source. Thereby disenabling them from protesting to the one planted loudmouth that ridiculed them, and challenged their sanity. Of course there were enough empty-headed cowardly journalists obsessively waving flags anyway, because they knew their jobs probably depended on not rocking the boat, as always.

So, you see, a VAST conspiracy is not required to pull this off. The finding of the truth would be very simple, if the right people, were asked the right questions under oath. The criminals in our midst that pulled off 9/11 are far more vulnerable than most people think.

WTC 7 - here's the proof it was a controlled demo
Posted by: Raj on Dec 11, 2006 12:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow, I see there's a clear line in the sand, and we got folks on one side or another, fighting each other, forgetting even why they are divided in the first place. There's good evidence on both sides, no doubt. I could go on for a while with links and interviews and documents, etc. but here's just one simple one I think we can ALL agree on: WTC 7 was pulled, in a controlled demo. How do I know this? Because the owner of the building said so on NATIONAL TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0scE7bQWdk

I would tend to believe the guy over anyone else in this matter, which makes me wonder why it differs from the "official story"

Keep your mind open to all possibilites....always!

» What? Posted by: fanny666
» RE: What? Posted by: Raj
» RE: What? Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: What? Posted by: Raj
And one more piece of truth
Posted by: Raj on Dec 11, 2006 12:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many politicians were warned not to fly on 911 ... San Francisco's own mayor at the time, Willie Brown was warned, I know personal friends of his whom I prodded to ask him how, and his reply was "Someone on my security staff tipped me off" Here's the SF CHRONICLES own column on the matter:
The evidence is right in front of you....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
file=/chronicle/archive/2001/09/12/MN229389.DTL

» Give me a break, child. Posted by: fanny666
Auther needs to do more research
Posted by: verite on Dec 11, 2006 12:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A brutal purge of the senior staff at Popular Mechanics preceded the publication of last month's scandalous propaganda piece about 9/11. Pulling the strings is the grand dame of Hearst Magazines and behind the scene is her obscure husband a veteran propaganda expert and former special assistant to the director of the C.I.A. "
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/
march2005/200305hiddenhand.htm

» Brutal Purge, Obscure Husband Posted by: fanny666
Included in the above Free Press item
Posted by: verite on Dec 11, 2006 12:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American Free Press revealed that Benjamin Chertoff, the 25-year-old senior researcher who authored the 9/11 article, is related to Michael Chertoff, the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The PM article illustrates how a propaganda method, used by dictatorships, is now being employed by the U.S. government: controlling mainstream media outlets to promote its version of 9/11.

» Cousin story is a canard Posted by: brunowe
» oh please... Posted by: gretavo
» That is not what she said... Posted by: brunowe
» Iron oxidation Posted by: brunowe
» very GOOD, bruno! Posted by: gretavo
» the IRON was burning??? Posted by: gretavo
» Happy to, Plopped-it Posted by: brunowe
» Postscript to above Posted by: brunowe
has anyone really debunked Griffin's book?
Posted by: Shakti on Dec 11, 2006 1:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think so ... Griffin's meticulously researched book remains "undebunked" as far as I am concerned. The author of this piece makes it seem as if Griffin and others are spouting nonsense, when that is simply not true. Many, many discrepancies in the Official Story remain. No one has credibly rebutted Griffin's work, in my opinion. I think they Let It Happen On Purpose.

Even 9/11 Commission thought Pentagon was lying:
Posted by: MonkeyBoy on Dec 11, 2006 1:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the Washington Post Wednesday, August 2, 2006:

Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.

Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.

read entire article here

Waking up a little?
Posted by: colek on Dec 11, 2006 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is Alternet waking up a little? Are you finally peeking out from under the covers of self-absorbed delusion and denial to see some truth? Most truthers don't buy no plane theories but we are highly disturbed that so-called credible sources like yourselves still bring that up? Why is that? Why not focus on something important like Bush stonewalling the investigation or the shipping of evidence to China or the $100K paid to Atta? Why not cover the Jersey girls? Maybe mention Norm Mineta? At least the massive fraud and waste of the Mil contracts! Afraid to lose your access? I'm sure. Well you must sacrifice credibility for access I guess.

So you still have no credibility with us, your former subscribers. How can anybody forget how the mainstream press cheerleaded this war? Or forgive? Or ever trust again?

Anyways, I applaud you softening your rhetoric now that it's safe to do so. Being cowardly is certainly less loathsome than being a killer.

It's so secret
Posted by: Soco on Dec 11, 2006 1:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They can't show you the evidence. It would embolden the enemy. Seems to be the only device they can use. It's so sensitive we can't tell you, or even tell the people who need to know.

Since it appears there was a concerted effort to use 9/11 as a pretext and validation of military attack against Iraq and Afganistan (Iraq is not a war) you'd think there would be a complete and total disclosure to anyone interested in researching it. But no, we got the 9/11 Commision report. Bush and Cheney were not under oath, were not recorded and jointly interviewed. Facts and testimony were throw out of the window that did not fit the theory. The only thing would be to fully disclose all information to a non-governmental, non-partisan group of scientists and engineers, not people on the PopSci payroll linked to Chertoff. Popsci debates by questioning the character of the theorists and slandering them. This is professional?
The official version sounds like it was commisioned to a third rate hollywood writer who's only theme is Arab terrorists. If the administration wanted to end the speculation they could, DIVULGE ALL THE INFORMATION. Why aren't they? Why risk the speculation?

It's bad for the country not to have the questions and evidence addressed. AlterNet and the Left leaning liberals apparently have just as must interest in preserving the fiction of the "Official" story as the Administration (or people of the far right). AlterNet does a good job of crafting bullshit stories to gauge the audience to tailor more bullshit to them. Each side of every affiliation, left and right is scared shitless of itself, it's opponent and the American People. This is why all sides trying to maintain the status quo use fear as a tactic, to preserve power.

What government in the history of the world has not tried to screw their citizens out of freedom? Could you name just one? Functionally, there is no freaking difference between any country at the top. It's all about power and wealth, you know it, and I know it. The idea of what makes civilization needs to be rethought, because evidently it cannot survive without war and destruction. Regardless of the facts regarding this issue, would it make a difference either way? The people who want to know don't and the people who do know won't tell. Amazing. Your screwed regardless. The fact is criminally insane people want power while most people are just trying to live.

If you look at the arguments from any side, left or right, they all proclaim they are doing the "right thing." Funny how they are all equally getting screwed up results. Niether side can afford moderation in action or thought. Moderation is the enemy of diametrically opposed groups. The hit is "Anyone who questions anything is crazy and harmful." There seems to be a new rash of articles to this affect which implies damage control is needed because the official story cannot stand on it's own merits. I could make anybody believe anything I say; the only condition is that you suspend the laws of physics and logic. This is basically what's been asked of people. It may very well not have been the administration, they may simply be reacting to something they could not prevent or know exactly who did it but cannot divulge it and are forced into playing the game. It could not have been OBL and 19 people, it sounds too "Hollywood."

Whatever the truth is doesn't mean or imply the truth is acceptable to the majority. The truth seems to be the only option never tried, ever. The US really got itself in a pickle didn't it?

The Absurdity of "Controlled Demolition"
Posted by: counterpoint on Dec 11, 2006 1:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
clipped from: The Absurdity of "Controlled Demolition" (Red Herring #2), by Pierre Sprey
counterpunch
Pierre Sprey is CounterPunch's technical reviewer of this report. His comments about the controlled demolition hypothesis are so cogent that I include them here.

Sprey:

There is not the slightest need to postulate pre-placed explosive charges to explain why the towers collapsed at near free fall speeds. Let me note a few practical aspects of explosive demolitions that make the explosive charge hypothesis improbable to the point of absurdity:

1. Any demolitions expert concocting a plan to hit a tall building with an airplane and then use pre-placed explosives to UNDETECTABLY ensure the collapse of the building would never place the explosives 20, 30 and 60 floors below the impact point. Obviously, he would put the explosives on one or more floors as close as possible to the planned impact level.

2. It is inconceivable that our demolitions expert would time his surreptitious explosions to occur HOURS after the aircraft impact. He couldn't possibly be absolutely certain that the impact fires would even last an hour. Quite the opposite: to mask the booster explosions, he'd time them to follow right on the heels of the impact.

3. To ensure collapse of a major building requires very sizable demolition charges, charges that are large enough to do a lot more than emit the "puffs of smoke" cited as evidence for the explosives hypothesis. I've seen both live and filmed explosive building demolitions. Each explosion is accompanied by a very visible shower of heavy rubble and a dense cloud of smoke and dust. Just that fact alone makes the explosives hypothesis untenable; no demolitions expert in the world would be willing to promise his client that he could bring down a tall building with explosions guaranteed to be indistinguishable from the effects of an aircraft impact.

My Conclusions [that is Manuel Garcia's]

The WTC towers collapsed at speeds approaching that of free fall because:

1. The dynamic force created out of the gravitational potential energy within the space of just one level spacing was far in excess of the static force the framing was designed to support, and

2. Elastic waves launched from the collapse front quickly filled the building --both lower structure and upper block --with large dynamic stresses, which weakened and ruptured joints well in advance of that material entering the collapse front.

The towers shattered, and the pieces fell to the ground.

Manuel Garcia Jr, physicist and engineer, presents his three separate reports, undertaken for CounterPunch.

Part One is his report on the Physics of 9/11.

Part Two (published here for the first time) is his report on the Thermodynamics of 9/11.

Part Three, "Dark Fire", is his report on the collapse of the World Trade Center's Building 7.

What does "paranoia" have to do with facing the facts?
Posted by: Shandy on Dec 11, 2006 2:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just for the moment, put aside the three WTC buildings, the Pentagon, the Pennsylvania plane and just follow the money. The stock in both airlines was "sold short" days before the 911 attacks. The WTC was insured for massive amounts weeks or months before 911. I suppose that it would also be fair enough to include the "war games" that were carried out on 911 to prepare for the highjacking of planes to be used to hit buildings (OPERATION NORTHERN VIGILANCE and OPERATION VIGILANT GUARDIAN). Isn't that enough? What happened to the 2.3 billion (or was it trillion) that disappeared from the Pentagon on September 10th? If we were to put aside the physical evidence, we could see that incompetence is not enough of an answer for the rest.

No matter what conspiracy analysis is done, no matter how much evidence is uncovered, no matter what actions are taken, the truth about 911 will never fully surface because the American people could not or would not be able to handle the full truth.

very typical and very sad
Posted by: DRosen on Dec 11, 2006 2:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poor Christopher Hayes is emblematic of everything that is wrong with the self-appointed "leaders" of progressive opinion in America. To say that they are arrogant in their assumed sophistication is to miss the point that the sophistication is itself entirely bogus. Mr. Hayes may trust Popular Mechanics to deliver the last word on the subject of 911, but he really ought not to expect other thinking people to be so shallow and juvenile. The issues in question are being debated by people with specialized knowledge and expertise. If physicists who are equipped to evaluate the evidence are arguing amongst themselves, who is Mr. Hayes to declare an early decision?

Meanwhile, he says "tens of millions of people apparently believe they are being governed by mass murderers." And Mr. Hayes does not? Where has he been. Has he heard of the war in Iraq? The bombing of Yugoslavia perhaps? El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicarague, Vietnam, Korea, Dresden, Hiroshima, the Philippines, the Native Americans?

This rates as one of the most pathetic articles I've read at Alternet. But what else can one expect from shills for the Democratic Party?

The government has betrayed us.
Posted by: GregWinters on Dec 11, 2006 2:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"According to a July poll conducted by Scripps News Service, one-third of Americans think the government either carried out the 9/11 attacks or intentionally allowed them to happen in order to provide a pretext for war in the Middle East."
I 100% agree with this. i too think that the government let the 9/11 atacks happen because they wanted something to fight about. Bush is a completely out of his mind. I have read articles about bush only going to war because he wants to expand the U.S. territory. Maybe he just wants oil from iraq, i dont know, but what i do know is that i do not like him simply because he keeps insisting that our troops stay in iraq.

» one-third of Americans believe Posted by: kellysgarden
Behold, someone saying the truth might not be my truth!
Posted by: medbear on Dec 11, 2006 2:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The second an incident is subject to conspiracy theories, it loses all hope of ever (at least in a lifetime) to be explained in a way that is credible. Roswell, the Kennedy brothers, space shuttles - there must be another, more sinister explanation, doesn't it? Not to say it could not happen, that is not the issue, but as the lead article states - pursuing the conspiracy at all cost does not lead to a better truth.

Because the truth we are seeking is the "right" truth, the truth that fits our convictions. The truth that doesn't leave us feeling pretty stupid for being wrong, however reasonable our suspicions were. A truth that, if possible, blames those we hate. Or takes blame away from those we like.

A truth that doesn't fit the image of a sinister inner circle, agencies out of control, a president with a cloak-and-dagger attitude towards the nation, the world and all its inhabitants ..... a truth like that is, quite frankly, neither fitting nor particularly sexy.

Which is why Roswell, the Kennedy killings (particularly the 1963 one), and 9/11 can be dissected, scrutinized, investigated, turned inside out, hung by the lamppost and stripped to fibers to be analyzed 6 ways to .... you know where, and we still would talk about the big lie (as one post here screamed), and the sinister plan of naughty people (as one post stated: they did this, then it's pretty clear they did that).

The result is, the truth might be there, or it might not. We wouldn't know it if it sat on our face, dancing lambada and biting our ears. Because we look for the explanation that fits our suspicions. They might even be right. And we wouldn't know.

And the official truth? Darned if i know. Which is the dilemma the main article discusses.

"Paranoid" gets a bad rap.......
Posted by: Fencerider on Dec 11, 2006 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's something to ponder....Perhaps Paranoia is a good thing and not a negative one. To me, it is just a heightened sense of awareness. pls. discuss.... Nobody knows the truth, and I agree we probably couldn't handle it's insidiousness. For the love of all things good and rational, how can anyone suggest to go with the status quo? And to do so, in turn, undermines our society? Me thinks not, oh blind worshipper to the false patriotic alter! All this bullshit will boil up to the top someday, eventually, and it will be scary as hell. Believe that!
Now, wrap your mind around this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUaeFaLpIhA

try this...
Posted by: Fencerider on Dec 11, 2006 2:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
better link, same you tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUaeFaLpIhA

????
Posted by: Fencerider on Dec 11, 2006 2:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How do I get an active URL up here?

» RE: ???? Posted by: fanny666
Name one thing...
Posted by: MonkeyBoy on Dec 11, 2006 2:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can anyone name one thing that the Bush Administration has told the TRUTH about from the git-go? Is it any wonder that a large part of the population is skeptical?

» The author would agree... Posted by: fanny666
Maxwell B.
Posted by: maxwell.bridges@maxbridges.us on Dec 11, 2006 2:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christopher Hayes gives the March 2005 Popular Mechanics too much importance for the hack-job it was. One of the examples he picked was: "steel might not melt at 1,500 degrees, the temperature at which jet fuel burns, but it does begin to lose a lot of its strength, enough to cause the support beams to fail."

I'm sure that most people in the Truth Movement could accept this fact given by Popular Mechanics' experts. However, it does not explain the UNIFORM FAILURE of all the support beams resulting in a free-fall collapse into its own footprint. These supposedly hot fires were not raging uniformly, if raging at all. (The black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire.) It does not account for the conducting effect of steel that tends to wick the heat away from the fire's source. It does not account for the enormous amounts of energy that would be required in that "raging" fire and the potential energy of the weight of the towers above that point not just to weaken the support beams to failure but to PULVURIZE THE CONCRETE into tiny pieces from the earliest moments of the collapse.

Hayes also wrote: "Bush would only be interviewed in the presence of Dick Cheney." Let's not forget that he only wanted to talk for an hour but ultimately was pressured into four, but NOT UNDER OATH.

Paranoia is this feeling that "everyone is out to get you." This word doesn't apply to the 9/11 Truth Movement. We don't think that everyone is out to get us; we just think the government is. The Bush Administration, on the other hand, has an MO where it constantly uses the wording of its own weaknesses to attack its enemies. It calls us "paranoid", when truly they are the paranoid ones, because everyone all over the world really is out to get them. It calls us "conspiracy theorist," when the fairy-tale the Bush Administration wants us to swallow hook, line, and sinker is the wildest theory of conspiracy (19 cavedwelling Arabs) that was published.

Every domestic and foreign policy instigated by the Bush Administration has proven to be prime examples of Orwellian double-speak and frought with dubious motives. Mainstream media has been slow to open its eyes to this. But if true in so many, many areas of the Bush Administration, Why not in their true involvement with 9/11? Why is it so hard to connect the dots with the physical evidence that the only way the simple physics of that day's destruction could be proven true is if forces behind the scenes and put into motion by influential people within our government happened.

OLIGARCH WAR
Posted by: Hal on Dec 11, 2006 2:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Nation article by C. Hayes is yet another faux “left” gatekeeper rant that does little but discredit its own assumptions as it defends a de facto monopolist oligarch state in charge of DC and its MSM. An active 911 cover-up is not controversial to anyone who has bothered to look into the matter.

False-flag attacks on U.S. citizens are nothing new via trumped up pretext for war.

1] The sinking of the Lusitania (a British ship with over a hundred American passengers) was allowed to be sunk by the Germans to get Americans behind the blood money horror of WW I.

2] The Pearl Harbor attack was allowed to happen by FDR to generate support for American intervention into WW 2.

3] A Tonkin Gulf incident was promoted as an “attack” by South Vietnam on the U.S. when it never occurred.

4] Northwoods Operation (though not executed) was signed off on by the U.S. government as a massive false-flag operation to blame Cuba for “attacks” on U.S. soil.

One more time:

Significant wars are fought over public blood money for private greed. And they always have been.

More to follow…

“HE WHO GAINS MOST ADVANTAGE FROM A CRIME IS THE ONE MOST LIKELY TO HAVE COMMITED IT.”
SENECA (renowned Roman playwright, philosopher and politician 5 BC - 65 AD)

“I SAW PAPERS THAT SHOW THE U.S. KNEW AL-QAEDA WOULD ATTACK CITIES WITH AIRPLANES…I GAVE [THE 9-11 COMMISSION] DETAILS OF SPECIFIC INVESTIGATION FILES, THE SPECIFIC DATES, SPECIFIC TARGET INFORMATION, SPECIFIC MANAGERS IN CHARGE OF THE INVESTIGATION. THIS IS NOT HEARSAY. THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE DOCUMENTED...”
MRS. SIBEL EDMONDS (former top-level FBI translator who gave closed session testimony to the 9-11 Commission. Edmonds asserts that Bush/Cheney National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice’s claim that there was no such information was “an outrageous lie.” The Bush/Cheney administration has silenced Edmonds with a court gag order citing the arcane and rarely used “state secrets privilege” upheld against her by the Supreme Court. In an interview with the UK Independent in Washington 4/2/04)

“LET’S LOOK AT IT SIMPLY. THE MOST IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NORTH KOREA AND IRAQ IS THAT ECONOMICALLY, WE JUST HAD NO CHOICE IN [INVADING AND CONQUERING] IRAQ. THE COUNTRY SWIMS ON A SEA OF OIL.”
PAUL WOLFOWITZ (“neo-con” US Deputy Defense Secretary and chief architect of the Iraq War in effect admitting “war on terror” was fought over Big Oil factors. He gave this response to a question as to why the U.S. made war on Iraq and not North Korea, a country that is developing nuclear weapons of mass destruction. Quoted from a talk to an Asian security summit in Singapore 5/ 31/03)

“THIS ORDER (BUSH/CHENEY’S EXECUTIVE ORDER 13303) REVEALS THE TRUE MOTIVATION FOR THE PRESENT OCCUPATION: ABSOLUTE POWER FOR U.S. CORPORATE INTEREST OVER IRAQI OIL.”
JIM VALLETTE (senior researcher at the Institute for Policy Studies. August 2003)

“THE FOUNDATION OF OUR INVOLVEMENT IN IRAQ IS AS CORRUPT AS YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE. WE WENT TO WAR ON A LIE…SO WHEN YOU HEAR THAT ‘WE BELIEVE THERE WERE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ,’ I’M HERE TO TELL YOU RIGHT NOW THE CIA KNEW THAT THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.”
SCOTT RITTER (Republican and former Marine major. Ritter was UN chief weapons inspector for Iraq 1991-98. 3/16/06)

“THIS (9-11) COMMISSION WAS CREATED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT AND THE FRIENDS OF THE ESTABLISHMENT ARE NOW PART OF THE COMMISSION…. IT [THE 9-11 COMMISSION] IS NOT ABOUT TRANSPARENCY. IT IS JUST THERE TO APPEASE THE PUBLIC.”
ANDREW RICE (Chair of the 9-11 Commission Committee of the 911 Families. Rice’s brother was killed on UA Flight 175 at the south tower on 9/11/01. Quote 3/28/04)

» Did you even read the article? Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Do you even have a clue? Posted by: fanny666
» Clueless Fanny Posted by: Hal
» Oh, Hal... Posted by: fanny666
» Ah, "Fanny"... Posted by: Hal
» RE: OLIGARCH WAR Posted by: MonkeyBoy
» RE: OLIGARCH WAR Posted by: Hal
OLIGARCH WAR II
Posted by: Hal on Dec 11, 2006 2:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WW I 1917-1920

“THE PRESSURE OF THIS APPROACHING CRISIS, I AM CERTAIN, HAS GONE BEYOND THE ABILITY OF THE MORGAN FINANCIAL AGENCY FOR THE BRITISH AND FRENCH GOVERNMENTS … THE ONLY WAY OF MAINTAINING OUR PRESENT PREEMINENT TRADE POSITION AND AVERTING A [FINANCIAL] PANIC IS BY DECLARING WAR ON GERMANY.”
WALTER PAGE (U.S. Ambassador to England reciting financial motives for WW I, Page became a trustee to Rockefeller’s U.S. “General Education Board” created to shape public and private education in America. Quote 1915)

“I TOLD SIR GRAY IF THIS WERE DONE, (GERMAN SINKING OF THE ENGLISH SHIP LUSITANIA) A FLAME OF INDIGNATION WOULD SWEEP AMERICA WHICH WOULD IN ITSELF CARRY US INTO WAR (WW I).”
COLONEL EDWARD M. HOUSE (as agent for the corporate money power and prime handler of President Woodrow Wilson. Colonel House speaks of his talk with Sr. Edward Gray and King George for a planned sinking of the Lusitania by German U boats in order to instigate war with Germany by rousing the American people into a war whose chief aim was to guarantee billions in J.P. Morgan and Rothschild House global banking profits. Lusitania military escort ship, the Juno, was ordered to stand down and leave the Lusitania unprotected. The Lusitania, illegally loaded with military explosives was devastated. Over 1200 civilians were murdered in the planned Lusitania attack including 124 Americans. Quoted from Colonel House’s diary entry on the morning of the day of the sinking of the Lusitania. May 5, 1915)

WW II 1941-1945

“IN SPITE OF THE RISK INVOLVED, HOWEVER, IN LETTING THE JAPANESE FIRE THE FIRST SHOT [AT PEARL HARBOR], WE REALIZED THAT, IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, IT WAS DESIRABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE JAPANESE BE THE ONES TO DO THIS SO THAT THERE COULD BE NO DOUBT IN ANYONE’S MIND AS TO WHO WERE THE AGGRESSORS… THE QUESTION WAS, HOW WE SHOULD MANEUVER THEM [THE JAPANESE] INTO FIRING THE FIRST SHOT WITHOUT ALLOWING TOO MUCH DAMAGE TO OURSELVES. IT WAS A DIFFICULT PROPOSITION.”
HENRY STIMSON (Secretary of War under President FDR speaking of the reasoning for the planned attack on Pearl Harbor designed to motivate the American population into support of WW II. Quote 1941)

“CARE WAS TAKEN NOT TO SEND US THE INTERCEPTED JAPANESE MAESSAGES, WHICH TOLD IN GREAT DETAIL EACH STEP IN THE JAPANESE PROGRAM…FOR THREE MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ATTACK ON THE FLEET A WEALTH OF VITAL INFORMATION RECEIVED IN WASHINGTON WAS WITHHELD FROM THE COMMANDERS IN HAWAII. THE INFORMATION DURING THE TEN DAYS PRECEDING THE (PEARL HARBOR) ATTACK CLEARLY POINTED TO THE FLEET AT PEARL HARBOR AS THE JAPANESE OBJECTIVE, YET NOT ONE WORD OF WARNING AND NONE OF THIS INFORMATION WAS GIVEN TO THE HAWAII COMMANDERS.”
ADMIRAL KIMMEL (the ranking American admiral at Hawaii during the attack on Pearl Harbor in his diary entry. Kimmel was used as a scapegoat for assigning blame for the attack. )

“EARLY IN 1941 THE DIES COMMITTEE CAME INTO POSSENSSION OF A STRATEGIC MAP WHICH GAVE CLEAR PROOF OF THE INTENTIONS OF THE JAPANESE TO MAKE AN ASSAULT ON PEARL HARBOR. THE STRATEGIC MAP WAS PREPARED BY THE JAPANESE IMPERIAL MILITARY INTELLIGENCE DEPARTMENT. AS SOON AS I RECEIVED THE DOCUMENT I TELEPHONED SECRETARY OF STATE CORDELL HULL AND TOLD HIM WHAT I HAD. SECRETARY HULL DIRECTED ME NOT TO LET ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THE MAP… THE SECRETARY ASSURED ME THAT HE AND ROOSEVELT CONSIDERERD IT [WITHHOLDING SUCH VITAL INFORMATION FROM THE PUBLIC] ‘ESSENTIAL TO NATIONAL DEFENCE’.
MARTIN DIES (U.S. Congressman 1964)

“JAPAN WAS PROVOKED INTO ATTACKING AMERICA AT PEARL HARBOR. IT IS A TRAVESTY OF HISTORY TO SAY THAT AMERICA WAS FORCED INTO THE WAR.”
OLIVER LYTTLETON (British Minister of Production, 1944)

OLIGARCH WAR III
Posted by: Hal on Dec 11, 2006 2:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
GULF WAR I (IRAQ WAR I) 1991

“WE HAVE NO OPINION ON ARAB-ARAB CONFLICTS LIKE YOUR BORDER DISAGREEMENT WITH KUWAIT…WE HAVE MANY AMERICANS WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE PRICE [OF OIL] GO ABOVE $25 BECAUSE THEY COME FROM OIL-PRODUCING STATES.”
APRIL GLASPIE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ (officially stating U.S. policy to Saddam Hussein and in effect, green lighting his Iraq takeover of Kuwait. Glaspie said these words 8 days before an American invasion & Gulf War when Saddam was betrayed by the Bush administration. As a Baath contract killer, Saddam Hussein was originally brought to power from 1959 by CIA as well as British ops and supported thereafter. Quote from Baghdad, Iraq, July 25, 1990.)

» RE: OLIGARCH WAR III Posted by: fanny666
» Read before you Spout Posted by: Hal
» RE: ead before you Spout Posted by: fanny666
» Nice try. Posted by: fanny666
» And the winner is . . . Posted by: dvw7
Bush is a murdering pig
Posted by: vkobaya on Dec 11, 2006 2:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hayes never comes out and says it but his objection to the 9/11 truth movement is that Bush and our government could not possibly be so callous as to plan and carry out the murder of 3,000 Americans in violation of their oaths of office. How can a man who is OUR president, elected by us commit such a crime. This is the man who is the very epitome of all that America represents. Noone who has ever held office could possibly commit such crimes, mass murder of 3,000 good American citizens. Bush took an oath of office to defend the Constitution and the nation against all enemies.

Then, please explain, 655,000, 2,931, 3,700 in October, Bue Sky Initiative, No Child Left Behind, Healthy Forests, Social Security Reform, signing statements, wiretaps, no habeas corpus, Halliburton's no bid contracts, 20 billion allocated for rebuilding Iraq yet not even one stone set upon another except for our permanent bases and embassy, trillions in tax relief for the rich, and on and on and on.

Just take a look at Bush, no, really look at him, the smirking, sneering, use of the finger, contempt for our Constitution, disdain for the American people, his stupidity and proud of being stupid, the absurd, foolish and unbelievable lies about his recreational reading, his vile, his disgusting, rich, fratboy attitude, NOLA, "peace, freedom and democracy," bringing democracy to Iraq, alcoholism, drug use, ...

No, of course, Bush didn't plan and execute 9/11. No American president could have done a thing like that. Then again, there were the stolen elections in 2,000 and 2,004. He's not the president, and never was. All the Bush crimes, the vast, vast crimes, murder on a scale undreamed of by Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Theodore Bundy, Richard Speck, back to Al Capone, and Billy the Kid. Combined, they do not even amount to a drop in a bucket compared to what Bush has committed. And besides, I doubt he is capable intellectually of planning anything beyond farting to embarrass his current guests or serving hot dogs to the British Royal Family. I'll bet they were burnt chicken dogs with French's Mustard and mounded with raw onions on the dicount supermarket buns that were two weeks stale.

No, Christopher Hayes is right. Bush could never, never, never had planned and executed 9/11. What was it someone said? He looked in Bush's eyes and saw that he was a good, sincere man. And, he's a born again Christian.

It's Quota Time On Alternet . . .
Posted by: MAD on Dec 11, 2006 2:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And it looks like everyone went for it hook, line and sinker! Periodically, Alternet management likes to throw out the 9/11 decoy duck in order to attract the shotgun wielding hordes from both camps.

On the one side we have the Oliver Stone crowd armed with pseudo-scientific "evidence" gleaned from the annals of Rense.com and other assorted tinfoil hat sites that cater to the conspiracy fanatic. These sites and/or movements are making absolutely no headway in their futile attempts at re-opening the 9/11 investigation but undoubtedly some self-described experts are enjoying their 15 minutes of notoriety, and if they happen to make a buck or two in the process, who are we to judge, right?

On side two we have an equally pseudo-scientific based argument coming from people who, neveretheless, consider themselves much, much more informed and intelligent than the "tinged by insanity" Oliver Stone crowd. Unfortunately, the "scientists" and junior pilots who number among them are never structural engineers (and usally CS guys) or have never actually flown a jumbo jet. They are prone to cite the infamous "Popular Mechanics 9/11 conspiracy theory debunking" article whose simplistic explanations generally satisfiy them because everyone knows that Popular Mechanics in no way constitutes part of the MSM which these same folks would ordinarily crucify.

So congratulations are in order Alternet. Every time you drag this tired old subject out Alterneters are sure to flock to it thereby assuring another round of sponsorship from Capital One or www.RxGetPaid.com who are no doubt impressed with how much mileage they can still get out of stories like this.

» Quota @ Camp Denial Posted by: Hal
Sooofedup
Posted by: lamoyer0 on Dec 11, 2006 3:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for giving us one more pornographic public exercise in articulate mental-masturbation. So many words in an effort to justify an attempt to humiliate others into silence. The war on and occupation of Iraq is A WAR-FOR-PROFIT, WHICH IS MASS MURDER - a capital offense! The lies they told are IMPEACHABLE. The looting of America and American taxpayers is corruption. Bush and Cheney were NOT sworn in at the 9/11 Commission, an absolution from truth. This guy can swish and swoon with his words, but the truth remains: mass murder for profit, war crimes, and on 9/11: If they let it happen, they made it happen, and the evidence that they were involved in either killing or allowing almost 3,000 human beings to be killed to serve their ends... even IF it was incompetence... deserves swift, legal consequences. My own sense of morality precludes the suggestion of WATERBOARDING, but the thought is seductive! My final question: ARE WE A NATION OF LAWS, OR NOT?!

» RE: exactly Posted by: channing
» RE: Sooofedup Posted by: Krain61
An obviously Un-informed Writer
Posted by: edgar_michel on Dec 11, 2006 3:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really didn't understand the point of this article unless it was that probing an issue too thoroughly can produce additional ambiguity and apathy and possibly panic. I do agree that some of the more "facinating and challenging" hypothesis do run the risk of appearing fictional. The idea is to arrive at the truth. This isn't an exercize in imagination, the official 9/11 report has already said the the problem with the intelligence leading up to 9/11 was "a failure of imagination." What is needed is an explaination of the most non-flamboyant run of the mill stuff. Thermite incindiaries are readily available to any demolition company as is cordite and RDX. It is only when the most mundane explaination fails to produce an explanation of observations that non-mudane devises might be considered that are known to produce observable effects similar to the incident under investigation. If this is a critism of approach, then it isn't a very good critism. If it is a critism of independent investigation, then it is a critism of critism itself. If it is a fear that the consequences of the investigation might lead to a patent rejection of the government, then fear rules our lives and our existence would only be endless misery regardles of whether we investigate or we don't investigate. The purpose of government isn't to decieve the governed, but rather to attempt to decern the will of the governed.

An ex-informant who became a Muslim says his handlers wanted him to frame an Islamic scholar
Posted by: rwa on Dec 11, 2006 3:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Swiss Spy in a War of Words

By Sebastian Rotella, Times Staff Writer


GENEVA — Along with banks and chocolates, this placid lakefront city has another claim to fame: It is full of spies.

Claude Covassi, a broad-shouldered, gray-eyed martial arts expert, was one of them. He became an informant for Swiss intelligence in early 2004, converted to Islam and infiltrated fundamentalist circles here in his hometown. He followed the trail of holy warriors all the way to mosques in Syria where aspiring foreign "martyrs" are groomed for Iraq.

But in February, the secret agent went explosively public. He revealed his mission to its prime target, a Muslim scholar here who has been periodically accused of extremism, and gave newspaper interviews accusing his handlers of trying to frame the cleric. Since then, Covassi has unleashed everything from confidential documents to details of clandestine operations.

The former spy insists that he abandoned his masquerade because he found faith.

"It is not great speeches that convinced me but the force of prayer and understanding of the Koran," Covassi, 36, said in a recent interview by e-mail from his refuge in Egypt. "Islam transformed my existence."

Covassi alleges that he was a pawn in a turf war between domestic and foreign services in Switzerland that resembles the conflicts among anti-terrorism agencies in other countries...

www.latimes.com

Is 911 bad for...?
Posted by: DRosen on Dec 11, 2006 3:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm beginning to see where the really significant damage is being done. The Counterpoints, Alternets, and Nations of the world are totally loosing their credibility, and in the process they are discrediting and embarrassing the left.

» RE: Is 911 bad for...? Posted by: MrAllen
yes, I'll explain
Posted by: DRosen on Dec 11, 2006 3:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're making this too hard. President Butch and his Butchers DID botch it. That's why we're talking about it now. This is too obvious. Are you thinking?

» oops, this was a comment... Posted by: DRosen
It's Bush since 911: Don't let the Right think we are "Nut Jobs!"
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 11, 2006 3:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, the majority of the American people are never going to believe that the USA or some other group of people (besides the crashing planes) blew up the WTC and Pentagon on 911. It just seems too implausible and too difficult to carry out. Besides, this distracts from the REAL issue after 911: GW's war on "terror." This includes the round-ups of Arabs after 911, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and of course, the war in Iraq and the imaginary WMD's. Since 911, Bush CAN SAY ALMOST ANYTHING as related to the war on terror and seemingly has often gotten away with it. To include, illegal domestic evesdropping, extraordinary rendition, the list goes on and on. These then are the REAL crimes since 911 and what we should focus on. Bush has become judge, jury and executioner when it comes to those suspected of "terrorism." But, despite all this, who do they "have." Jose Padilla whom they seemingly cannot convict of anything? We should focus on what the real issues are, and not let the Right Wingers think we are a bunch of "nut jobs."

So what if they did it?
Posted by: owleyes on Dec 11, 2006 4:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does it really make a difference if George Bush and his friends did orchestrate 9/11? If so, what difference does it make?

CHRIS HAYES / NATION / ALTERNET ARE TOOLS
Posted by: johndoraemi on Dec 11, 2006 4:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is propaganda from a CIA infiltrated organization (The Nation), which has on its editorial board an active CIA affiliate (Max Holland).

Max Holland edits for The Nation. Max Holland writes for the CIA website. Google it.

David Corn's similar garbage about 9-11 shows where they are coming from. Alternet, In These Times, even Pacifica are afililiated with these compromised sources, and they give us a doctored up take on issues that avoids the truth in favor of some ideological bend.

Do not trust these big time opposition rags that don't stand up and really investigate. This is psyops, with a soft-sell style. It's a war for your mind in the service of a particluar system, one that benefits those at the top, and one which they have no desire or motivation to change.

I am currently researching an article to debunk this sophomoric, would-be debunker. Be back.

CRIMES OF THE STATE
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

9/11 Truth Is Too Disruptive
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Dec 11, 2006 4:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for most people and that's why the majority of Americans still choose to believe some or all of the government's very obvious lies. After all, if what the "conspiracy theorists" say is true, the entire government structure of America is completely corrupt, and Americans are living in a dangerous, vicious dictatorship ... not an easy thing to swallow for most patriotic Americans, who generally have exorbitant amounts of self-esteem.

Besides, then they'd actually have to DO SOMETHING about it, and the sheeple are much too lazy. And what can they do anyways? Riot in the streets? They'll just get sprayed with tear gas and pepper spray, and locked up like the anti-globalization protesters. Go into politics? Get real. Unless you have megabucks of corporate money backing you, there's no way to compete.

Much more comforting to blame 9/11 on some easy-to-hate ratty-ass third worlders than to face the fact that America has been taken over by an evil corporatocracy.

As an article
Posted by: cul on Dec 11, 2006 4:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice provocation, Mr Hayes.

Several commenters caught the internal inconsistencies quite well don't you think?

Basically the message is "We aren't buying it anymore"...get used to it.

Topics not to be touched on any media outlet, apparently
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 11, 2006 4:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why isn't Khalid Sheik Mohamed, the named architect of the airplane attacks of 9/11/2001, on trial?

More to the point, why don't any of the usual 9/11 suspects address this issue (truth movement, Nation, whoever?)

Why aren't the terrorist attacks of 9/18 and 10/09 (the anthrax letters) a subject of discussion in any venue, be it the "Truth Movement" or the corporate media or the alternative media?

Weaponized high-tech spores based on a US biowarfare lab strain of Bacillus anthrax made using a top-secret recipe...case buried by the FBI who refuses to brief Congressional committees on the specifics??? Nothing to see here folks... what, what anthrax?

As far as 9/11 (the day of) goes, do you think that the hijackers would have told the FAA that they were going to crash the planes into the Pentagon? No... they probably would have pretended they were returning to the airport, and that's why they weren't shot down immediately. Would Cheney have issued the order to shoot down the planes, given that he almost certainly thought it was 'just a hijacking'? What about the Aug6th PDB :"preparations consistent with hijackings", "Osama bin Laden determined to strike"? The 7/10 Tenet Rice meeting?

Instead, the discussion has been diverted to nonsense like bombs in the WTC, the Building 7 (130,000 gallons of fuel oil for the 'emergency command center will burn a building down), the Pentagon video (or lack thereof), etc. That's a an easier charge to refute then the charge that Bush&Co. had prior warning of hijackings that they allowed to go forward as a pretext for war (they probably imagined a hostage situation at the airport). It's also glaring that the '9/11 truth movement' ignores these issues - putting KSM on trial would bring a lot to light, wouldn't it? Aren't the anthrax attacks of 9/18and 10/9 also important? Why does the 9.11 truth movement refuse to look into the period from 1/01/01 to 9/11/01- the leadup to the attacks, when Able Danger was following Atta around?

Psyops galore.

» I'll raise you one. Posted by: johndoraemi
Would you believe????
Posted by: ccluelessfl60 on Dec 11, 2006 5:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Would you believe that our government is so heartless it would allow it citizens to drown in a flooded city,Old people and babies begging for water and food as grown men stood by, on the outskirts of a city and prevented any true assistance from going in, It ran away rescuers from all over the world for 5 days because of some gun shots.Only the Brave Coast Guard did it's job ,almost without support. Police so over whelmed they had no command left. Would you believe that. Must be paranoia huh?

The answer
Posted by: fifthworld on Dec 11, 2006 5:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to the question posed is NO. If dogged pursuit of truth against all odds (declining odds, actually) is "bad for the country" -- and aren't you sick of that dumbass rhetoric with anything like "the American people, the people of the country", etc., cause I'm throwing up -- then F' "the country" and all things patriotic and cowardly.

Flawed Logic
Posted by: rwa on Dec 11, 2006 5:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These leftgatekeeper 9/11 truth attack articles are flawed on so many levels. 9/11 truth is hardly even identified as left. If any group is over represented it's libertarians. Why would the left care if libertarians subscribe to an offbeat notion? How many articles have these fake left outfits written to defend floridation? All the true dogmatic "leftists" I know are much to wrapped up in defending thier particular rhetoric to explore 9/11. It takes alot of focus to make a case for Maoism, there's no space for 9/11. Who is this guy kidding?

Which conspiracy theory do you believe?
Posted by: bob in npr on Dec 11, 2006 6:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Hayes, thank you for labeling us all a bunch of wild hair kooks, based on your superior authority that our "leaders", whoever they are, would not stoop at murder of American civilians to achieve their goals. Did you forget, Mr. Bush used Ms. Whitman of the EPA as a foil to declare the air around ground zero was "safe" 3 days following the attacks? The murdered & disabled rescue & clean-up workers number in the hundreds, so far. The 8 out of 14 rescue dogs dead of cancer since don't count, so I shouldn't mention them.

I agreed with him until 3 weeks ago, when I watched a thoughtfully assembled video called "9/11 Mysteries" that blew me out of my apathy. Since then, I have averaged 6 or 7 hours a day doing research on it. I watched "Loose Change" & the rebuttal, "Screw Loose Change". Both had inaccuracies, stretched truths & logic, character assassinations. I checked out Weekly Standard to New York Times. I googled organizations like PNAC & Skulls & Bones, as well as names such as David Ray Griffin. I connected to links on sites I visited. All had mistakes, errors, avoidance of opposing facts. But, the Myth Busters asked the questions our opponents dodge, Like how did the 47 4"thick, 2' x 4' Core Beams supporting the bulk of each tower, sitting about 1/8 of a mile below the actual fires heat enough to collapse into the ground? Why were the salvaged Core Beams conveniently already in 30' lengths? The outer beams were 38', but not the core.

My take:
1) The same people who proclaimed the "Official Version" have boldly lied to us since before 9/11. I have absolutely no reason to believe anything they say.
2) Overall, it is statistically much more likely the WTC was destroyed by explosives than by the planes & resulting fires, especially WTC 7. The science adds up better.
3) Searches suggest both strong motives & excellent opportunities to plant explosives & trigger the collapses. Two people had total control over access to all areas of WTC, including empty offices, maintenance areas, & an entire floor of 1 Tower. Larry Silverstein, longtime owner of WTC 7 & landlord for the previous 6 weeks over the entire complex. The other is Marvin Bush, George & Jeb's brother, who was security chief of the WTC Complex, AS WELL AS at United Airlines & Dulles Airport. Note the list of tenants in WTC 7 included the CIA, DOD, SEC, & the Mayor's Emergency response Center, which Rudy did not even enter that day.
4) There are about 17 members of The Project for the American Century (PNAC), half of whom served as Administration officials. Names include Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, & Jeb Bush. An inconvenient truth.
5) Protocol for a crime scene was not followed. Most of the steel, especially the CORE beams, were taken from the site & shipped to Asia for salvage before inspections could occur. The contractor who did the hauling was a demolition company named Controlled Demolitions. The investigation was stonewalled every step of the way. What is who hiding? Obviously something.
6) I admit it. I believe people in high places are guilty as sin. I would dearly like to suggest we send the most likely suspects to Guantanamo for the torture they worked so hard to make "apparently" legal with the same lack of rights in their Executive orders & legislation. People in the right do not resort to such tactics, so I will not suggest it seriously.

It doesn't matter what I believe. I have done my best to include only actual, documented facts here. For anyone reading this, I would ask you check out the info on the Net as I did & come to your own conclusions about what happened. As far as I am concerned, nothing is proven. There does seem to be a very good circumstantial case, however. The next obvious step is to open a Congressional inquiry & pray there are enough honest people there to make it thorough & searching. Let the chips fall where they may.

stay away from the loons
Posted by: Jimmy's International on Dec 11, 2006 6:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To pursue the 9-11 “truth” is a waste of time. Still there are all kinds of reasons for the public losing a healthy skepticism toward government actions and motivations. So to attack the 9-11 “truth” movement for its minor contribution to this phenomenon indicates misplaced priorities by the author.

But I am glad people are openly critical of these folks because they take away from good work activists should be doing. I agree that a lot of the “truthers” are libertarians as ‘Flawed Logic’ states, but many on the left also waste their time with that garbage. At a leftist gathering in Milwaukee last summer the 9-11 “truthers” had one of the biggest crowds for their presentation—and with wackos gathering like flies to shit.

» Loon @ the Mirror Posted by: Hal
» RE: Loon @ the Mirror Posted by: Jimmy's International
» Read more Posted by: NowYogi
» RE: Loon @ the Mirror Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Loon @ the Mirror Posted by: Hal
pdennany@hotmail.com
Posted by: Pop on Dec 11, 2006 6:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The answer is simple. An independant commission be appointed by a non-partison prosecuter would find out what really happened on 11 Sepember. There was never any investigation to find out What Happened. The NIST, FEMA, and the commission started out with forgone conclusions. The fact of Explosions were felt and heard was avoided. As were all other oddities that would embarrass the desired conclusion.

"statistically" likely
Posted by: DeeOhGee on Dec 11, 2006 7:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A very curious statement, to counter physical evidence with a question of statistical likelihood. I agree it's statistically plausible that highly placed rich people might do a nasty deed to destroy the buildings to start a war, but to claim they would do so with a risky (risky in terms of being caught) plot to plant bombs all over the buildings rather than to argue they used (well documented) connections with Saudis to get terrorists to do their dirty work in a horrible double cross is really stretching credulity.

I've read many papers on both sides and as a professional engineer the only one that really makes sense is this (which says absolutely nothing about whether anyone in the project for a new millennium paid Osama & pals to hijack the planes, etc, so claims of "false lefty" are quite missing the point):

The World Trade Center Towers (WTC 1, WTC 2) were tall square buildings with supporting columns grouped along the vertical axis (center) and closely spaced along the perimeter (building faces). A "hat truss," at the top of each building, tied the outer walls to the central columns; and this truss had a height equal to that of five stories.

A hijacked airliner was crashed into each building about 10 or 20 stories down from the top. The columns along one face of the building were sheared for a height of several floors, as were many of the columns at the core. The exploding fuel from the airliner ignited fires throughout the levels within the impact zone, as well as dropping fire down the stairwells and elevator shafts at the building's core, and billowing up to higher levels. The shocks of impact and detonation loosened the "fire protection" thermal insulation on steel beams in the impact zone.

The damaged core columns in the impact zone could no longer hold up all the weight they were meant to carry. The core columns in the upper block now found it necessary to partially hang from the hat truss. The hat truss pressed down much more forcefully on the perimeter columns, transferring the load of the hanging weight. The added compression of the perimeter columns could only be distributed to the three undamaged faces, and because of the irregularity of the damage one face assumed a much higher load than the other two.

The fuel fire burned up to 1,100 degrees C (2,000 degrees F) for perhaps 10 minutes. It ignited the many plastic furnishing (carpets, curtains, furniture, equipment cases, clothing, fixtures, office ceilings and partitions), paper items (paper supplies, books, pressed wood), and some structural elements (gypsum wall boards, plastic plumbing), which then continued the fire. The exposed steel beams in the impact zone heated to between 700 C to 1,000 C. Steel at 700 C has 50 per cent to 70 per cent of its strength at habitable temperatures; and steel at 1,000 C has between 10 per cent to 30 per cent.

The floors in the impact zone sagged because of broken joints to central columns, heat causing their metal framing to soften, weaken and expand; also because of the weight of debris fallen from above . The sagging floors twisted their joints to the perimeter columns (on the three intact faces); the length of column above a floor joint being twisted inward. For one face of the building, the combined stress of the original weight above it, the added compression from the hat truss, and the torque from the sagging floors were too much. Its perimeter beams were bent inward to the point of failure, and they buckled.

» very well said! Posted by: owleyes
» RE: very well said propaganda Posted by: gary_7vn
» Sorry no, Posted by: brunowe
» Nice Fairy Tale Posted by: BillDouglas
A mountain of evidence
Posted by: solrey on Dec 11, 2006 8:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a veritable mountain of evidence indicating that 9/11 was an inside job.
Foreknowledge:
An inordinate amount of "put options" initiated for ONLY the two airlines involved amounting to a total profit of approximately $2.5 million dollars, as yet uncollected. The brokerage firm had on it's board of directors the third ranking person in the CIA who also was in charge of that firms accounts for it's wealthiest customers.
John Ashcroft was flying in private chartered planes for a couple of months prior to 9/11 and members of the Pentagon cancelled trips on commercial airlines on that day.
The mayor of San Francisco was told to cancel his trip for the morning of 9/11 by an unidentified source who claimed they were an FAA official.

Government complicity:
ALL field investigations of the alleged hijackers were stopped dead in their tracks from the topmost levels, including from within the White House.
Mohammad Atta, the alleged ringleader, was enrolled in a special US Air Force training program and also was enrolled in a flight school in Florida with ties to Gov. Jeb Bush.
The numerous training scenario's suspiciously paralleling the very scenario of 9/11 taking place that day leaving only a handful of fighter jets available for intercept across the northeast corridor while all the rest of the fighters were training far north up around Canada.
VP Dick Cheney taking control of NORAD a few months prior to 9/11, an unprecedented shakeup in the chain of command.
It took about 1 1/2 hours before any jets were sent to intercept the hijacked planes and only one was still in flight at that time...an unprecedented failure of NORADs air defense protocol.
ALL of the steel was quickly hauled off and sold to recycling firms overseas, primarily in China and Korea.
$100,000 wire transfer from the head of Pakistans intelligence service to Mohammad Atta. Pakistans intelligence service is well known as the go-between for the CIA and Al-Qaeda, which is a creation and an asset of the CIA dating back to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and has been used to destabilize governments un-friendly to US political and corporate interests.

Physics:
Most of the jet fuel burned up in the initial explosion and the first few minutes of the fire, the remaining fires were mostly isolated and containable and were starved of air which is why the smoke was thick and black, they burned for less than an hour and tests indicated that NONE of the steel in the areas of the impact were subjected to more than about 800 degrees fahrenheit.
The buildings were engineered and constructed with load bearing redundancy in order to withstand MULTIPLE airliner impacts.
A structural failure would have produced a more random collapse and at a pace much slower than freefall speed.
Dozens of credible eyewitness reports along with audio and seismic evidence of large explosions at the base of the buildings.
In order for a controlled demolition to be successful there would have to have been explosives and/or thermite/thermate throughout the building and a remote system could easily be rigged to initiate the collapse from ANY level of the building in conjuction with weakening the supports in the basement.
WTC 7 came down PERFECTLY STRAIGHT INTO IT'S OWN FOOTPRINT with all of the typical indications of a controlled demolition, including central crimping and as indicated by the penthouse at the top starting with the main central supports.
Larry Silverstein admitted on an interview a few months later that the decision was made to PULL IT, referring to building seven.

ALL of the above is documented and reported on in various credible news outlets.
I have a solid knowledge of the physics and dynamics involved in controlled demolitions...I know one when I see one and on 9/11 I saw three.

We Are Not Paranoid Because We Support A Paranoid Republic
Posted by: hole11 on Dec 11, 2006 8:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We don't care if the president takes us to war on lies, we are not paranoid.

We don't care if the terrorist are planning their next attack on us as we sit here and read what is on the internet. We let the spooks take care of that.

We don't worry about upsetting global opinion on us, we can put the blame on one man as with the terrorists.

We don't buy into questioning our righteous government in anything it does because we are told to pay taxes.

We don't care that we are being manipulated by liberal Hollywood or the conservative corporate dupes we enjoy the push pull rollercoaster ride, it will never end...weeeeee.

We don't care that voting is such a great thing to keep our freedom, we know it's fixed anyways...even the electoral college guarrantees that.

We read People of the United States of America do declare that we want more honest news about US conserning Cosmopolitan events with Stars.

Long History of Black Ops
Posted by: rwa on Dec 11, 2006 8:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel’s Failed Assassination Attempt on U.S. Ambassador Documented
By Andrew I. Killgore

Had Mossad, Israel’s secret intelligence organization, succeeded, it would have been the perfect crime—the crime of the century. The plan was breathtaking in concept: to assassinate the American ambassador to Lebanon, in Lebanon, with American weapons, intended for Israeli’s defense only. Everything about it would point to Lebanon as the culprit.

But fate intervened, and things went wrong. The tires on Ambassador John Gunther Dean’s limousine automatically reinflated when they were shot out in 1979 (see November 2002 Washington Report, p. 15). The light tank shell simply bounced off the car’s armor. And, horror of horrors, Lebanese intelligence had retrieved the empty shell casing on which was written, “Made in the United States of America.”

Mossad’s specialty was dirty tricks, even if (or perhaps because) it was not very good as an intelligence organization. Its modus operandi had always been the same: pull off a dirty trick but make it appear somebody else had done it. An early example was the Lavon Affair, named for Pinhas Lavon, Israel’s minister of defense back in 1953. This Mossad operation persuaded some Jewish men in Egypt to burn U.S. Information Service libraries on the assumption that Egyptian President Jamal Abdul Nasser would be blamed. But one of the incendiary devices went off prematurely, and the young spies were caught. Some of them were executed. This provoked a scandal in Israel, and in the ensuing investigation it eventually turned out that Lavon’s signature authorizing the operation had been forged at the behest of Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. A dirty trick within a dirty trick!

Then came the June 8, 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, killing 34 Americans and wounding 171. Perpetrated by the Israeli air force and navy, this was not a Mossad operation, but it was suffused by the same spirit of stealth and trickery. During the Arab-Israeli war of 1967, unmarked Israeli jets raked the all-but-unarmed spy ship Liberty, steaming slowly off Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, with napalm and machine gunfire.

The Liberty was flying a large American flag, and the ship’s designation, in English, was clearly visible on a cloudless day. But Israel said it thought it was attacking an Egyptian transport ship. Israel pleaded “a tragic accident” and still pleads that miserable lie today...

www.wrmea.com

Reichstag fire
Posted by: kellysgarden on Dec 11, 2006 8:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author makes a stupid conclusion - that the 911Truthers base their premise on Hitler's Reichstag fire. I have actually been in the Reichstag building, but I don't use that as any kind of premise for my belief that 9/11 was an inside job. The premise I base my beliefs on is the PNAC/Neocon's "New Pearl Harbor" they so openly wanted, and upon the Northwoods Documents. The author never even mentions this.

I will dismiss the author's viewpoints because the only argument he can muster is the Popular Mechanic's belief that the brief fires were enough to "weaken" the steel. Beyond this weak argument he seems to be clueless. Until he can come up with some kind of logical explanation for the put options, the molten pools of metal that lasted for weeks beneath the three towers, and the core columns that had the appearance of being cut with a torch, I will not even start to consider that the "theory" of a man in a cave with 19 Saudi ametuer pilots with boxcutters could outsmart all of the FAA and Air Force on the same day as 5 mock training excercises were taking place.

» RE: eichstag fire Posted by: gary_7vn
Altenet writes about comments
Posted by: solrey on Dec 11, 2006 9:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In response to a large number of reader comments on an article about solar power, Alternet has a new article titled Readers Write: The Power of The Sun.
I hope that with the huge number of comments this article has inspired, Alternet will also do a story to follow up on the opinions and evidence presented here. This is too important of an issue to ignore or poo poo away with crass rhetoric dismissing questioners of the "official story" as a "lunatic fringe" as the author of this piece does. The long term and historical consequences of the possibility that members of our own government were complicit in the events of 9/11 are too profound to ignore.
False flag operations and government cover-ups are nothing new, they happen all too frequently actually, and not just in this place and time, nearly the entire history of civilization is riddled with them and in nearly every case those living under the government responsible thought that "they wouldn't do this to us".
Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to relive the events of the past.

Something to consider
Posted by: Krain61 on Dec 11, 2006 9:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear of the experts saying how this building would come down! In history when was a building this size taken down?
There not no more of a expert than you or me till they bring it down..And the fire and the building would of covered up most of the sound of a charge placed in the right place.Someone said that the outside beams were cut at like 20 feet and the center I think they said 30..I wonder how deep each floor is from floor to floor.Maybe 30 feet? They make a special wire that is a charge that will cut through steel.And I'm thinking it would be like they say about gravity which once they got the ball rolling it took over following the center beam down because if they only cut the top floors at the same time the out side one's might act as a guide to keep it going straight down But since I have never done it I wouldn't know..But neither have these expert..Or have they? And wont tell? These people using K street got everyone they wanted in places they wanted them in and kept the other shut out..I seriously think it's was do-able

A very good look at why people go for conspiracies--
Posted by: eridani on Dec 11, 2006 9:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
--and the antidote is the right one as well. All the government needs to do is to quit lying and withholding information. Dr. Bob Bowman, who actually is a rocket scientists and a 9-11 skeptic says that the truth about 9-11 is that we don't know what happened. He suspects deliberate scheduling of training exercises mimicking the actual event, but admits that he can't really know if that is true without a serious investigation. I'm not as hard on conspiracy theorists myself, for the following reasons.

To criticize "conspiracy theorists" is to blame the victim instead of taking on the perpetrators. There is a reason why people come up with conspiracy theories--they happen to be a normal and healthy response to the experience of being forbidden access to relevant information and being constantly lied to by people who do.

The radical therapist Claude Steiner once said that paranoia is actually a heightened state of awareness, in which the paranoid put together narratives that make sense of the only information they have available. He gave an example of a woman he treated who believed that her husband was engaged in several elaborate plots on her life. What Steiner did was to interview the husband, who was disturbed by his wife's narrative. The husband was in fact thinking of having her permanently committed to the funny farm, but he always responded to his wife's questions about what was wrong between them by saying "Nothing, honey."

That was the crux of the problem. The wife was in a heightened state of awareness and knew only that "Nothing, honey" was a pile of steaming bullshit. Not having access to real information about what was going on in her husband's head, she invented it. Steiner's ultimately successful therapy was simply to convince the husband to stop lying and withholding information. In this case, the husband did not exactly lead the examined life, and was unaware of the harm that social "white lies" can sometimes cause. Being genuinely concerned about his wife, he agreed to try to be more introspective and commit to being honest about his feelings. The wife agreed to acknowledge this effort, and to be more persistent about asking for information instead of automatically assuming the worst. Of course members of the current administration have no such commitment to making it all better for the rest of us--see the classic Ingrid Berman/Charles Boyer movie Gaslight for a psychological take on their game.

The bottom line here is that it is a basic requirement of sanity to be able to make sense of one's information environment, and if those people who know what is going on behind closed doors constantly lie to the public and withhold information, the inevitable result is that people will naturally want to fill in the blanks. This process is analogous to the effects of sensory deprivation---float in one of those tanks long enough to deprive your brain of sensory input, and it will quickly start inventing some.

Current official explanations of 9-11 are like a picture puzzle with half the pieces missing. Many people have been taking magic markers and extrapolating from what is visible to fill in the missing spaces in an attempt to put together the entire picture. They are constantly ridiculed for this, and opinion makers who wish to be taken seriously always bog the discussion down in disputes about whether or not the colored-in parts really look like the original pieces. Some will be closer approximations than others, of course; a few may well be wildly off. But the really important issue (which remains for the most part unaddressed) is "What in bleeding hell gives our government the right to hide the pieces in the first place?"

» Well said eridani Posted by: IanA
Trust the left to defend the uS govt official 9-11 Conspiracy
Posted by: brianct on Dec 11, 2006 10:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had planned to posta long rebuttal ive written of another left wing defence of the official US govt 9-11 conspiracy theory...which is what it is! But for lack of space i will keep it brief: one notable gaff is Hayes dependence on the long debunked Pop Mechanics article. I wrote:

'It turns out they have been less than honest about their connections..For one of them, Ben Chertoff, is the cousin of the Secretary of Homeland Security: Michael Chertoff.
But Hayes nowhere mentions this! Hasnt he been doing his homework? Or is he the victim of a 'see no evil' attitude common among debunkers.
Further, Hayes believes that the twin towers were brought down by the planes plus fires a using sagging, yet he fails to acknowledge that WTC 7 was never struck by a plane; And ignores that the fires in twin towers were small and localised (as prove by he firemen who reached them! ...so how did the floor trusses way below even sag?

In addition is the evidence that several of the accused 'hijackers'turned up alive AFTER 9-11, that there names were broadcast around the world immediately after 9-11, while video evidence of pentagon attack was seized by FBI agents minutes after the attack, and never released. Very strange!

Brian Souter
Australia

castleman
Posted by: castleman on Dec 11, 2006 11:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is truth bad for America? Screeds like these, rife with too many errors to itemize...all they really do is further illuminate observable truths. In stark contrast to Mr. Christopher Hayes' style, I advocate a focus on the evidence. LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED. Laws of physics are commonly circumvented, both officially and privately, with "I heard", or "seems to me", or "so-and-so said...." But the glory of science is its foundation, the bond of observable and verifiable to the predictable. "This" plus "this" equal "that", always. Religion, on the other hand, delivers "this" plus "this" equals "whatever our arbitrary decisions and political consensus say". People who believe science and religion are intertwined--are in essence the same thing, should find Mr. Hayes's work comforting. However, people who understand science, people aghast at the blatant unrealities foisted off as truth...many understand not only the agenda spawning such deception, but how much it has damaged the credibility of AlterNet. There are still a lot of Americans able to assimilate realities, understand the motives of "unrealists", and smell the stench of Mr. Hayes' manipulative falsehoods and, typical of 9-11 via authority, lies.

911 STRAWMAN @ the VAMPIRE STATE
Posted by: Hal on Dec 12, 2006 12:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A last word…

Debating a suspect 911 event is hardly a pastime for “paranoids”.

911 cover-up is no more “theory” than its phony Orwellian “war on terror” used to foist Big Oil puppet garrison states from the Mid East to Eurasia. All at public cost for private plunder into the trillions all told.

Challenging a Washington 911 conspiracy fantasy with ironclad alternates is not the duty of rank and file American citizens with limited access to resources and information. Anyone that demands such an absurd standard of proof gives our toy poodle DC-MSM “government” a vast benefit of doubt woefully undeserved.

The record of U.S. sponsored false-flag and war crimes on Americans with at least 20 overthrown democracies since WW 2 (by CIA secret police) speak to an undeniable truth.

The 911 lynchpin that a Washington-MSM brothel defends for organized corporate crime is simply this:

For 911 cover-up to be real, American free market democracy would be a dead killing joke. The U.S. would have to be run by a fascist monopoly crime state masked as a republic. A corporate kleptocracy. Or put another way – a Vampire State run by self-serve DC shills and MSM carnival barkers for cartel oligarchs.

And no surprise; the founder’s greatest fears have come true. For a corporate Vampire State is exactly what we have.

Why?
Posted by: NowYogi on Dec 12, 2006 1:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why did AlterNet print this article? I had read it before on CommanDreams, and found it shallow and poorly researched.
AlterNet, WHY did YOU print it? Are YOU part of the 911-Truth coverup club?

WTC Controlled Demolition - PROOF
Posted by: AngelsForTruth on Dec 12, 2006 2:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Counterpoint stated above...
"1. Any demolitions expert concocting a plan to hit a tall building with an airplane and then use pre-placed explosives to UNDETECTABLY ensure the collapse of the building would never place the explosives 20, 30 and 60 floors below the impact point. Obviously, he would put the explosives on one or more floors as close as possible to the planned impact level."

I could not agree more.
To see the explosives exploding on the floors at the impact level, BEFORE the plane hits the second tower, WTC 2 .... go to
WTC Controlled Demolition - PROOF

John 9-11
Posted by: Relayer311 on Dec 12, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can anyone with even basic science knowledge not get it !
The buildings were blown no doubt? Check the sismic visual and audio evidence
Plus, they have admitted a great deal which is still in the record. Cheney being warned that the plane is just 10 miles out of the pentagon. Yet not in the 9-11 omission report.
The congress is just a bunch of Pussies, that fear for their lives. Congressman Paul Welston for example challenged Cheney and got blown from the air in his new plane.
Wake up and smell the THERMITE
JR

Milwaukee, San Francisco, St. Louis Join Boston Tea Party for 9/11 Truth
Posted by: rwa on Dec 12, 2006 8:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by Kevin Barrett
Email: kevin (at) mujca.com (unverified!) 11 Dec 2006
Inspired by the original concept to publicly reject the 9/11 Commission's Final Report in Boston, San Francisco and Milwaukee have joined in, and now at least two other cities are holding joint events to show solidarity.

On the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party - Saturday December 16th, there will be a shredding of the Commission's lies, and a symbolic toss of the Report into Boston Harbor: http://911blogger.com/node/4594

In an amusing sideshow, Kevin Barrett will toss an effigy of "Mr. Bill" O'Reilly into Boston Harbor, then appear on The O'Reilly Factor the following week:
http://mujca.com/teaparty.htm

Milwaukee will be holding a coinciding event:

http://ts911t.org/MilwaukkeeTeaParty9/11Truth.html

"We will meet up at (1:00 PM) the east end of Wisconsin Avenue and walk to the front of War Memorial Center (1 block north) and give our respects for those soldiers that have given their life for our country. We then take a walk down the bridge to the lakefront. We will barbecue the 9/11 Commission Report right in the open park at the bottom of the bridge. We will then throw the ashes of the 9/11 Commission Report into Lake Michigan. There will be free hot dogs, ice tea or hot green tea. We will also have free 9/11 Truth DVD's. A speakers podium will be available for anyone that wants to take a stand and speak up for 9/11 Truth."

San Francisco will hold a parallel "Tea Party for Truth" : http://911blogger.com/node/4898

A solidarity Boston Tea Party action will take place in front of Lafayette Park in Washington, DC from 11am-12pm.

St. Louis is holding an event, and other cities are getting on board! Stay tuned to http://911blogger.com for details.

Boston contacts: jasonkin1 (at) earthlink.net, Larry (at) universalastronomics.com, vgmrem (at) gmail.com
Milwaukee contacts: http://ts911t.org/ContactUs.html
Kevin Barrett: kevin (at) mujca.com

John 9-11
Posted by: Relayer311 on Dec 12, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can anyone with even basic science knowledge not get it !
The buildings were blown no doubt? Check the sismic visual and audio evidence
Plus, they have admitted a great deal which is still in the record. Cheney being warned that the plane is just 10 miles out of the pentagon. Yet not in the 9-11 omission report.
The congress is just a bunch of Pussies, that fear for their lives. Congressman Paul Welston for example challenged Cheney and got blown from the air in his new plane.
Wake up and smell the THERMITE
JR

THINK
Posted by: penguins8me on Dec 12, 2006 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bush Admin might not have orchastrated 9/11, but they sure as hell let it happen. It's not just that "Loose Change" video. Dylan Avery just convently connected a few dots to make his point and ask some very good questions. Its about what our government hiding. Why are all the details about 9/11 kept so secret from us? How did WTC 7 collapse for no reason? Why were their eywitnesses that herd explosions in the base of the building? The only response the government has for these inquires are vague and always contain the phrase conspiracy. If the sneaky Bush admin would just cite some reasons why these "conspiracy" theories are wrong, then maybe i would have more respect for 'em. I doubt it but maybe. I mean at least Clinton TRIED to get osama, all bush did in his first 9 months in office was hang out at camp david. OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE REAL EVIL DOERS

So typical of the "Truth" movement
Posted by: Boomerang on Dec 12, 2006 10:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's so typical of this 9/11 insanity movement to harp on anyone who disagrees with their paranoid fantasy as somehow being in on the conspiracy or ignorant. Nevermind the literal mountains of evidence and debunking which has been applied to their nonsense, they're convinced and nothing is going to change their mind! Doesn't that just smack of ignorance?

Who are you going to believe, Joe Nobody on the internet or the Physics professors and engineers assembled by Popular Mechanics? This is a world of the most intense paranoia I've ever seen. I can't believe so many people are pulled into it.

» I certainly wouldn't Posted by: NowYogi
» You have to empathize Posted by: fanny666
Simple Logic
Posted by: jseas on Dec 12, 2006 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am reminded of the comment, "All that it take to prove not all ducks are white is but one black duck."

Consider: if a plane hitting the Pentagon would have had to knock down lampposts and didn't, then logically no plane hit the Pentagon.

That's a black duck.

If Building 7 was hit by nothing and there was no earthquake, tornado or other natural event capable of taking it down yet it fell, then logically it was artificially demolished.

That's a black duck.

Is the Nation so sloppy in its collecive editorial thinking as to ignore such facts and dozens of others like them? I doubt it, but it's not a black duck.

Are the preponderance of American (not foreign) media so sloppy? It strains credulity further.

Here's a comment you may wish to add to your e-mail signature. I find that it gets people thinking:

"“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Göring during the Nuremberg Trials."


Whether or not the US leaders are guilty of mass murder, they have capitalized on this event to press for the advance of fascism (Disagree? Look up the textbook definition).

That's just as bad, and clearly violates their oath of office to "preserve, protect and defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic."

Bush even called the Constitution, "just a piece of paper."

» RE: Simple Logic Posted by: rockpicker
THE TRUTH IS APPARENT
Posted by: philobat on Dec 12, 2006 10:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING about the 9/11 conspiracy should be considered as a defining moment for we the people to take our voices back and do some shouting to the world that the powers that be whom are running our country do not and have not for some time, speak for the heart of the people.

I sat and watched in horror on September 11th with my brother and we only got up to use the restroom during breaks. Both he and I observed how the reporting changed throughout the day and we watched over and over as the buildings came down. Being that neither of us are for sensationalism, we both felt at the time, there was something very nefarious and ominous not just from the television. There was a moment when we looked at each other and we knew in our gut that this was the beginning of the end.

Isn't it funny that all of the world class paintings were out of both buildings supposedly being cleaned? That one really said it clear. Oddly, the paintings were not insured in the event the buildings were destroyed in a terrorist attack, so writing a new policy for them would be a tip off because the insurance policy for the entire buildings had just been updated and adding another new policy would arouse too much suspicion. So just send them out to be cleaned! For both buildings at the same time, Oh please!

For me it is the little things that give it away. Now here is another one. The moment "supposedly" the airplane hit the buildings the fuel burned at some 3000 degrees and vaporized everything on impact- yet Muhammad Atta's smoldering wallet was found a few blocks away from ground zero. Now when this was reported a few days later, I for one felt like walking to the White house and slapping the living shit out of that man running this bad show.

I am deeply ashamed and concerned that my fellow Americans are buying all of this bullshit.

The reason we don't pull together and storm the White House is quite clear and can be summed up in one word WACO.

I do think that the reason this has all gone over is because it is so heinous and reprehensible that it just dosent seem like it could happen today.

I say WAKE UP AMERICA because it is HAPPENING.

Remember, Hitler happened. Stalin happened, Lenin happened and George Bush is now happening.

» RE: THE TRUTH IS APPARENT Posted by: MonkeyBoy
The same site also says there were UFO's at the towers
Posted by: Boomerang on Dec 12, 2006 12:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Credibility = 0

Try again.

» You are so stupid Posted by: NowYogi
» I meant boomerang Posted by: NowYogi
PPS -- "The biggest threat..."
Posted by: johndoraemi on Dec 12, 2006 1:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The biggest threat" America faces is a fake opposition, run by the very forces that we wish to challenge.

You, Chris Hayes, are a part of that fake opposition. These left establishment media (failing to silence the calls for truth and justice thus far) are the most insidious and despicable part of our current malaise.

You are a propagandist, not a journalist, and as such are among the lowest of pond scum.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to search through the very real and very damning anomalies of September 11th and see massive holes in the government's story. The faux lazy lefties who front as if all the answers have been pounded out (by somebody else) fail to investigate for themselves, and set off to obfuscate the very real and daming claims made by skeptics.

We are the skeptics.

You are the apologist for the terror state.

We do not accept government lies.

You promulgate them, in your "edgy" and widely circulated ignorance.

We want justice.

You seek to silence us.

You are the "threat" to the United States, Mr. Hayes. Not us.

Crimes of the State Blog
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com

» And if YOU still don't get it: Posted by: johndoraemi
I think Alternet should interview David Ray Griffin
Posted by: Shakti on Dec 12, 2006 3:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
His book is very thorough, very sober, very credible. I would very much like to hear what he has to say now, some years after writing the book. Why don't we hear more from him?

Here is an Amazon review of the book (on amazon.com):

Until reading this book I have despised any conspiracy theory that involved persons in any American administration doing harm to their fellow Americans. But Dr. Griffin, a noted professor at the prestigious Claremont School of Theology, has written a dispassionate study of the many inconsistencies that are involved in the official version of what happened on 9/11, our surveillance of Middle Eastern terrorist networks before that time, and our pursuit of the true perpetrators since then. For example, when Flight 11's transponder went off at 8:20 a.m. and flight attendants reported at 8:21 a.m. that it had been hijacked when it turned 90 degrees to the south, F-16's are routinely supposed to scramble and head it off within ten minutes--long before it reached the North Tower. There is an average of 100 scramblings per year. We went zero for three on 9/11. How could we not protect against a plane going directly towards the Pentagon or the White House? One starts this book, wanting with all one's heart to believe that it was incompetence or surprise that day, but there are just too many other really strange things (about twenty more) noted by Griffin that warrant an even more complete investigation than what is going on now (April 2). Why? Because a lot of these elements, briefly captured by one media source or another, were swept away in our focus on the war and not brought back into the national consciousness. I must agree with the professor who wrote that "it is rare, indeed, that a book has this potential to become a force of history." This slim book is a MUST READ!

Griffin has a couple of new books out, one on American imperialism. Alternet should include him.

GOONIGHT AMERICA!
Posted by: Cathyc on Dec 12, 2006 4:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You guys are basically fcuked! Get out of your armchairs and basements and wake up to the fact that your CUNTRY does'nt need you anymore, cos *its* off to China and India, where there is a much bigger pond to fish! Get your lifebelts out, cos your going to need them, and soon!

Anyone seen the film TITANIC?

Nice try, comrade
Posted by: opeluboy on Dec 12, 2006 4:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay. We're all nuts. Fine. Just show me the fucking plane that hit the Pentagon, okay?

Until then, I'll believe my own lyin' eyes, pal.

Now go write something about how wonderful lil' Hillary is.

» RE: Nice try, comrade Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: Nice try, comrade Posted by: opeluboy
The one thing that really stroke me
Posted by: Ahimsa on Dec 12, 2006 5:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the article says,
If 1/3 of the population (that makes about 100M, right?) believe that the government was involved, directly or indirectly, with the attack...
Then why are they not on the streets demanding justice?

THAT is really frightening.

» I'm on the street fighting! Posted by: kellysgarden
» Martial law Posted by: solrey
The Cowards on the So-Called "Left".
Posted by: bloggulator on Dec 12, 2006 9:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real 9/11 Truth Movement, (as opposed to the disinfo. specialists who promote nonsense to muddy the waters and poison the well) is concerned with disseminating the problems, absurdities, impossibilities, unlikelihoods and bizarre coincidences, as regards the officially sanctioned story, to the people of the US and the rest of the world. The real 9/11 Truth seekers are asking the questions that the pathetically inept 9/11 "Commission" not only failed to, or didn't dare ask, but also were ordered, in no uncertain terms, not to address".

QUESTION: Why are the weasels, aka the "gatekeepers on the left", such as this site, "The Nation", "Democracy Now", and numerous others of similar political sentiment, so concerned with maintaining and supporting the Bush Administration's increasingly untenable story? Each facet and aspect of the official version of 9/11 have multiple credibility problems, to put it euphemistically. The only things standing in the way of a real inquiry, are the cowards in the mainstream media, who seem to be in some inexplicable state of denial, and have imposed some type of arbitrary taboo upon the subject, whereby the notion amongst the lazy-minded and pollyannas is that it is impossible for there to be corrupt elements and/or murderous villains within our own ranks.

I am not accusing anyone specifically of being 9/11's perpetrators, simply because I, as well as most of the rest of us, do not know their identities. Not only that, it is getting most tiresome to be subjected to the junior-school tactics of throwing the "conspiracy theorist" label around, ad nauseam. There seem to be legions of kneejerkers who are scared to entertain the possibility that the ugly land of reality beyond the pink cushions doesn't quite map onto their preconceived comfort zone.

Nobody has the necessary concrete, undeniable, scientifically verifiable proof, namely evidence that would stand up in a US court of law and convict anyone named in the officially sanctioned story to date. What we do know, however, is that if the US Government was entirely blameless in the attacks, then there would be no need for all the paranoia, unmitigated secrecy, obfuscation, balking, lies and delays by the Bush Adminstration in permitting an inquiry in the first place. It was only the threat of bad PR that got them moving, after refusing for 411 days to authorize, or cooperate in any type of inquiry, which in the end was headed by Philip Zelikow, a hard-line White House NeoCon. What kind of a sick joke is that? To the thousands of persons bereaved in the attacks, this appointment was nothing short of sticking the middle finger.

Why has this subject been deemed a taboo in this country? WHERE IN HELL IS THE OPPOSITION? To be harsh, but realistic, any organizations within the mainstream media (TV, Radio, print and web) which refuse to give a forum to those asking the relevant questions (and many thousands of them there are) should be seen as AIDING AND ABETTING TERRORISM

» Right ON Posted by: NowYogi
9/11 and the Water Engine
Posted by: BobbyGreyFriar on Dec 13, 2006 3:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that “conspiracies theories”, such as the one in question, are harmful for two reasons:

1. They distract from more serious problems
2. They lend the impression that the major political problems are somehow caused by agency driven by objectives that are tangential (and perhaps explicitly contrary) to the objectives of the government in general (i.e. that the government, due to a law of nature, acts in the best interests of the people and is only driverted from time to time by "conspiritors".)

It is not a question of fact. Personally I doubt the credibility of conspiracy theories on the grounds that people can’t keep secrets. However, even if the 9/11 was more than just a convenient coincidence – i.e., it was in fact a government plot – so what? Half a million have died in Iraq and we know that as long as we delay withdrawal more will die (what ever happens after our withdrawal is nothing to do with us except making reparations for war crimes -- we ought to make reparations, i.e.). Why doesn’t the war itself, or why don’t previous American crimes against humanity (including those perpetrated by Kennedy, the victim of such a plot himself it is alleged), get the amount of attention that 9/11 does; what is peculiar about 9/11 that has given quasi-religious significance?*

*For whatever reason there is a human tendency to fill in, where there are gaps in knowledge, with what amounts to a religious (or “metaphysical” if you prefer) explanation. A strange object floating in the air MUST be a visiting alien spaceship; the government must he holding the patents to a water engine to protect oil companies (Cf. “A Water Engine”, David Mamet) etc. Unfortunately unless we can reflect on this tendency and try to remain sober in the face of serious political problems, I believe we are in serious danger.

» Without 9/11 Posted by: NowYogi