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The Revolution Will Be Solarized
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So when someone claims that within decades solar photovoltaic technology will come to dominate the world's energy portfolio -- with or without subsidies, with or without rising fossil-fuel prices, with or without new environmental legislation -- one could be forgiven a degree of skepticism.
But Travis Bradford is no hippie idealist. The author of Solar Revolution: The Economic Transformation of the Global Energy Industry spent the early years of his career in corporate acquisitions and private equity funds -- not fields that reward irrational exuberance. His book is based on research and analyses done at his Massachusetts think tank, the Prometheus Institute for Sustainable Development, working from what he claims are conservative assumptions about market and capital trends.
Those trends, he says, are inexorable: Just as revolutions have transformed the information and communication sectors, solar power will break the hold of sclerotic, centralized power companies.
Roberts: Your book's central claim is pretty bold.
Bradford: Thanks for recognizing that.
It's not just that we're moving toward alternatives, it's that we're moving toward distributed [power generation] as well. If both of those are true, solar is the only viable option.
Solar is different from other energy technologies in that it delivers energy at the point of use, directly to the end user. That allows it to circumvent the entire supply chain. It's not another option for a utility, it's a competitor to a utility -- the first time utilities have really had a competitor.
The best way to describe it is with an anecdote about cell phones. We used to have these monopoly telephone infrastructure players. They controlled everything, and they had all the processing power at central switching stations. You had these dummy terminals that you just picked up; you had a connection, but no brains. All the brains were in the center of the network. And then these cell-phone producers came along and, in the Telecommunications Act of '96, were given access to the telephone grid. They began to go completely around the supply chain and offer competing services to the same customers, wireless and easier. The telephone utilities ... first they ignored it, then they tried to fight it legislatively, and when they lost that they tried to fight it economically. Eventually they just decided, screw it, we're going to buy them. Today those are the most profitable parts of their business. That's the transformation.
This also happened in computers. We went from large, centralized mainframes with dummy terminals to a distributed hybrid architecture.
Solar is slowly going to begin to unwind the existing utility economics, to the point where utilities decide they have to get in or they risk losing their core business -- exactly the transformations we've lived through in the last 20 years.
The solar revolution does not require new breakthroughs in technology. You could do it with the technology we have, scaling it up and learning how to do it incrementally better every year -- which is what naturally happens with scale.
Roberts: Solar is mainly used for electricity, which represents just over a third of energy use. How do you account for transportation fuels?
Bradford: We'll never solve the problem of transportation until we reconnect the transportation and electricity infrastructures. There's not enough liquid fuels.
I'm not a big fan of biofuels -- on close examination their environmental impact is wretched. What it does is export part of our energy price for transportation through the grocery store, right? We end up subsidizing the cost of our transportation infrastructure in the price of food stocks. Biofuels will solve some problems, but at the end of the day there's not enough land in the entire Mississippi River Valley to meet our transportation needs. And then where would we get food from? There's cellulosic, but that's only another 10 percent.
There are real capacity constraints in any transportation-fuel option until we reconnect it with the electricity infrastructure. You do that either with plug-in hybrids or with electrolyzed hydrogen. My guess is that batteries will be better for transportation purposes, and electrolyzed hydrogen for stationary applications, because fuel cells on site are much easier to make than fuel cells with the thrust needed in automobiles.
Other than industrial processes, we use thermal applications in heating and hot water. There are electric analogs to both of them. We can have electric hot water heaters just as easily as gas hot water heaters. We can have electric home heating. Historically it was believed that thermal applications were about a third the price of electricity-based heating applications, but that was based on $2 per thousand cubic-foot natural gas and whatever the prevailing price of electricity was. These have come a whole lot more in parity, and in a lot of places in the world, electric heat's the way they go.
Everything has to reconnect. The infrastructures that separated -- first at the beginning of the century, and again in the middle of the century for natural-gas infrastructure -- have to reconnect. And we'll need a lot more electricity to drive that.
Roberts: A lot more. What do you do about coal?
Bradford: Coal is the enemy of the human race.
Roberts: There's my pull quote. Do you think solar's going to beat coal?
Bradford: Solar's going to change the electricity infrastructure in a way that will make coal unnecessary. This distributed architecture is going to get to the point where wind and geothermal, where available, take over a lot of the baseload needs; solar will meet a lot of the peak needs, and some of the base needs during the day. The combination of these portfolios will make coal irrelevant. Wind and thermal are nearly as cheap as coal, if not cheaper, and coal still enjoys tremendous subsidies. Under certain circumstances nuclear power would be OK, but I highly doubt those circumstances can be met.
Solar is a universal system available inversely with the wealth of the nation. The richest countries have less and the poorest countries have more.
Roberts: What about areas that get little sunlight -- like, say, Seattle?
Bradford: The sun is shining, just not as brightly here as it is in the desert. Seattle gets about half the sun of Los Angeles, for instance.
Historically, the cost of solar drops about 5 to 6 percent per annum, just based on the volume of growth and natural learning. If that continues -- and I use even more conservative estimates than that, showing the learning rates slow down a little bit -- you get to the point that solar in Seattle is cost-effective 10 years later than solar in Los Angeles. Ten years is not a very long time in terms of energy infrastructure. It's the blink of an eye, when you're thinking about planning and zoning.
Solar's taking off right now in Germany and Japan, which have as little sun as Seattle. It's taken off because of some good political will; they've ended up subsidizing renewables as much as they've subsidized existing fossil-fuels infrastructure. They've leveled the playing field a little bit better than we have.
Solar's not going to be the only solution. It's going to be part -- a surprisingly large part -- of a portfolio of solutions. Its limits are not a problem we're going to have to deal with for at least two or three decades. By the time we reach a point where solar's problems might be binding, we'll already have a set of options to deal with them -- storage solutions will be three decades ahead. By that time we're generating a quarter of our energy on solar anyway.
Roberts: A good problem to have.
Bradford: Exactly.
Roberts: It's always the supply side that gets press and attention, but utilities and utility regulations are a bottleneck. What's going to happen grid-wise?
Bradford: Deregulation has allowed utilities to squeeze their spare capacity. They've been able to reconfigure assets and put off upgrading their infrastructure. The grid today is deeply underinvested in. So it's getting frailer -- that's what the blackout in Brooklyn this summer was all about. The upgrades are too expensive; they can't afford it under the current rate structures.
The grid infrastructure is problematic, but distributed solutions help solve that. The utilities have already been moving toward distributed natural-gas plants. Solar provides a great alternative for utilities that don't want to invest in line extensions and upgrades. Ultimately utility providers are going to figure out that they want this hybrid infrastructure. They'll get to a point where they're participating in and pushing the process rather than ignoring or resisting it.
I've talked to a number of senior managers and board members at utilities around the country. One of them -- a board member of a Northeastern utility -- said to me, "We don't know what to do, but the writing's on the wall, and the conversation is occurring at the board level at every utility around the country: How do we migrate our systems to a renewable, distributed system?" The conversations are being had, but these are slow-moving entities.
Roberts: Bush's Asia-Pacific climate pact is a trade deal to facilitate U.S. nuclear and coal industries selling their older technologies in the developing world. There's a rush to build up traditional electricity infrastructure in the developing world. Will it succeed?
Bradford: They're going to be successful in some places. But the reality is that grid infrastructures are not economic in low-density, low-income nations. If they were anywhere close to economic they would have been built already. You'll have integrated policy environments like China, where they've got 96 percent grid electrification and lots of coal. But in the vast majority of the under-electrified or non-electrified countries, solar's already the cheapest option.
Roberts: It's frequently said that the U.S. is falling behind in 21st-century energy industries. Is it true?
Bradford: I often claim that we are in danger of trading our addiction to Middle Eastern oil and Russian natural gas for an addiction to Chinese polysilicon and solar cells. That is a risk.
But if you look at where the materials come from for the solar industry today, while a lot of the cells are made in Germany and Japan and a few in China, a majority of the silicon they use comes from the United States. We're shipping them the feed stocks, and we're making a tremendous amount of money doing it. That's where all the profit is in the supply chain right now, because of the shortage.
The U.S. has lost the glamorous parts of the supply chain. But the profitable and the potentially path-breaking parts like thin-film solar are still here. If we don't get in the game, those will go away, too. We are at risk of losing those, but right now we actually have a pretty strong position, at least in solar.
Roberts: Are you a "crash and contraction are inevitable" environmentalist or an Amory Lovins-style techno-optimist?
Bradford: I am definitely in the latter family. The way I characterize those two schools of thought are the defense school and the offense school. The defense school is filling the sandbags -- they think we have passed the point of no return, so their strategies to cope are defense-based strategies. My deepest concern is that the defense crowd is right. But I'm not ready to play defense yet.
If we're going to solve the problem, the solar revolution is a necessary and significant component of the solution.
Roberts: If.
Bradford: We all live with what we believe to be true and what we fear to be true.
Roberts: Will the decentralization of power production be accompanied by a decentralization of political power?
Bradford: Solar power is empowering. All things being equal, people like to control the resources upon which they rely. That's why I spend time thinking about solar technologies rather than centralized, easily controlled technologies. At the end of the day, sustainability includes distributed power and democratization.
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Posted by: rsaxto on Dec 2, 2006 1:01 AM
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Posted by: jsong123 on Dec 2, 2006 3:29 AM
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How much baseload elecricity can wind energy supply to the grid?
10%
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» How Many People Want To Die?
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
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» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: Starcatcher
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: edith
» What an Informative and Useful Post
Posted by: Douglas
» Statistically inaccurate
Posted by: SufiLizard
» A request for more information...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: A request for more information...
Posted by: biochemurgic
» RE: A request for more information...
Posted by: alibaba
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: lrrysgl
» Six of my friends brew their own beer
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: Artaraxl on Dec 2, 2006 4:55 AM
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The Solar Fraud: Why Solar Energy Won't Run the World, Second Edition by Howard C. Hayden
Amusing, no? Maybe it's best to get them both.
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» RE: Ironic Amazon recommendation: "Solar Fraud"
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Ironic Amazon recommendation: "Solar Fraud"
Posted by: pzzp
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 2, 2006 6:03 AM
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I'd add nuclear energy as another enemy of the human race; look at what the Chernobyl disaster did to the Ukraine and Central Europe - and there's no solution to the problem of long-term waste disposal or nuclear weapons proliferation.
The most polluting and disastrous industry in the United States is the coal business - the evidence is obvious, from the actions of Massey coal in mountaintop removal in the Appalachians to the damaged water on Hopi and Navajo reservations in the Southwest, to the open-pit mines of Montana. Billions of tons of CO2 are injected every year into the atmosphere from coal-fired electricity generation in the US and China, along with sulfur, nitrogen oxides, mercury and arsenic.
You can expect this article to bring out a whole horde of fossil fuel and utility PR trolls, who will make all kinds of claims - but the fact is, there's plenty of solar and wind available to generate electricity; there are technological issues that could be improved (like energy storage) but moving towards good electric cars is also going to help things out. The author is probably right about biofuels (particularly when the new Midwest ethanol plants are being bult with coal-fired power systems!).
What the utilities worry about is something called 'the death spiral'. If 10% of California goes solar, that means that utilities lose 10% of their market, and to maintain profit levels (the only thing their bankers and shareholders see) they'll have to raise rates, leading to more people switching to solar, and so on. Meanwhile, coal and natural gas suppliers will see shrinking markets and declining profits due to less demand for their product from electricity suppliers.
This is why the fossil fuel industry hires the world's best PR firms to attack the science behind global warming as well as the notion of renewable energy. Just watch...
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» Qualification on biofuels - they can indeed be non-polluting
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» "Can" and "Is" Are Not The Same Thing. The Technical Details Do Indeed Matter!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Qualification on biofuels - they can indeed be non-polluting
Posted by: AdamG
» Let's Hear It For the Bicycle and For Bicycling!!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: mwildfire on Dec 2, 2006 6:19 AM
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I live in West Virginia, and I really LOVED the pull quote. The power plants that spew pollutants and greenhouse gases are mostly built close to the coal--which means we get the brunt of the environmental devastation from mining and washing and transporting coal, as well as from the plants and their wastes. It's very rare for a discussion of these issues to take into account ALL of the costs of coal--the subsidies are enormous, and hidden and unjust.
So I'd love to believe that a solar revolution is inevitable, but IS there enough silicon? What about the problem of intermittency? Major steps toward conservation and efficiency will no doubt be critical.
As for the comment that only people who brew their own beer will want solar panels, there are stations in the southwest that use concentrated mirrors to produce centralized solar power...and windmills are mostly big affairs powering the grid rather than individual homes. Perhaps people will have a choice, as they do now with beer.
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» RE: more information please
Posted by: malaparte
» A recommendation
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: more information please
Posted by: heftysmurf
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Posted by: flyingfish on Dec 2, 2006 7:03 AM
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» RE: ~`~
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Posted by: greentime on Dec 2, 2006 7:21 AM
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Passive solar, active solar, hybrid - it is simple and just makes sense. Common, healthy, sense. The sun is a fantastic source of energy. Our technology will improve and so will the efficiencies! Wind has an important place in this too.
The only question regarding solar and wind is this:
Should each of us operate our own private power sources or should we band together and operate them as PUBLICLY owned central power generating "plants"? The answer is pretty obvious.
There is NO question that they should not be privately owned. Oil and coal should have taught us that. Do you want someone like Bush and Co. to own the rights to the sun? How ridiculous does that sound? The sun - should we pay some rich family for the right to use it? Uh, no.
Now, if we can just get the ugly oily oiligarchy out of our way, we can be about the work of creating a sutainable, clean energy culture that lives peacefully and in balance with the planets web of life.
Or would you rather "stay the course"?
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Posted by: boing007 on Dec 2, 2006 7:29 AM
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James Stewart starred in a movie in the 1930's. I can't remember the title, but in one particular moment during this film, Stewart rhapsodized for several minutes about the wonders of Solar Energy.
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» RE: Solar Energy Long Overdue - Government owns the Sun.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Door man on Dec 2, 2006 8:29 AM
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I have the correct slant on the same roof to put in photovoltaics... which I will do the minute someone can show me any cost advantageous or even payback to zero.
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» RE: solar radiant more efficient and effective
Posted by: Carl Street
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Posted by: wobblies on Dec 2, 2006 9:51 AM
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What are your and the author's views on Copper-Indium-Gallium-Diselenide (CIGS) as an alternative material to silicon? Did you discuss this potential breakthroughs being worked on in places like South Africa?
God Speed,
David Elliott
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» RE: Copper-Indium-Gallium-Diselenide (CIGS)
Posted by: Logic's Edge
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Posted by: rwa on Dec 2, 2006 9:59 AM
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 2, 2006 11:11 AM
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Solar won't be the end-all-be-all for driving U.S. consumer energy needs, but it can make a big impact if combined with reciprocal and complimentary technologies.
The ability for U.S. consumers to "get off the grid" (with some potentially heavy investment) will undoubtedly get here, mostly for reasons of economic self-interest. Much more interesting to me was the treatment of the topic of solar use in the third world.
I may have to read more of this one...
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» RE: xcellent article. Peaked my interest in the book.
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: xcellent article. Peaked my interest in the book.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 2, 2006 12:29 PM
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"And then these cell-phone producers came along and, in the Telecommunications Act of '96, were given access to the telephone grid. They began to go completely around the supply chain and offer competing services to the same customers, wireless and easier."
Cell phone companies didn't decentralize telecomminications; they simply produced another centralized system – which is way more expensive for poorer service. Try using your cell phone without access to a tower or satellite transmission –– and how many times does your land-line drop calls? What destroyed economical land-line service for customers was deregulation of the Bells, not centralization. We once had the most reliable phone system – hell, of any system – in the world, and our government wrecked it for us.
Don't get me wrong; I am in agreement that decentralized solar power would be a marvelous thing (in Calif. where I live, if you produce more power than you use, the utilities have to buy it back). I worry, though, that there is still a bottleneck: production of the panels and systems by centralized corporations. We cannot build our own; we are still dependent on rapacious companies for the technology, and with the corporate zeitgeist of collusion and price-fixing that has the blessing of our supposed "leaders," expect to be screwed by this technology as well.
I wish it were not so; I wish I were less of a pessimist – but I see how the system works today. Without regulation from a benevolent government, corporations – including those producing solar power technology – will do what they always do: rip off the consumer.
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» RE: YES!!. . .but. . .
Posted by: rwa
» RE: YES!!. . .but. . .
Posted by: edith
» RE: YES!!. . .but. . .
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: solrey on Dec 2, 2006 3:27 PM
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I've lived in self-sufficient communities so I know that this can be done, even with current technology and limited financial resources.
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» Plus passive solar
Posted by: solrey
» How about energy swaps between the existing grid and solar installations rather than storage?
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 2, 2006 4:17 PM
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Dec 2, 2006 5:21 PM
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Tracy Staedter, Discovery News
May 31, 2006 — A for-profit home builder has constructed a house priced under $200,000 that, in an average year, costs nothing to power or heat.
The so-called zero-energy home, built by Norman, Oklahoma-based Ideal Homes, is priced affordably even though it incorporates some of the latest technology and energy-efficient construction available today.
Do a Google Search for "Zero Energy Home Enters Affordable Range" to locate the full article.
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Dec 2, 2006 5:30 PM
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Dec 2, 2006 5:38 PM
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Posted by: edith on Dec 2, 2006 5:50 PM
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I was concerned about the following statement made by the interviewee:
" The telephone utilities ... first they ignored it, then they tried to fight it legislatively, and when they lost that they tried to fight it economically. Eventually they just decided, screw it, we're going to buy them. Today those are the most profitable parts of their business. That's the transformation."
The transformation will be that we get screwed on solar like the utilities screw us now on coal and nuke generated power?
I haven't heard Pelosi or Clinton yap much about public power. Nor do I expect to. You know. Sounds too much like the "New Deal" that DLC Dems love to hate.
Ironically, given the monopoly nature of power transmission, this is an area(delivery) where free market solutions as to delivery at least may not make sense, so ol FDR and the TVA were prescient!
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» RE: solar is the hot new stock?
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: Douglas on Dec 2, 2006 6:49 PM
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Posted by: Douglas on Dec 2, 2006 7:09 PM
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"I'm not a big fan of biofuels--on close examination their environmental impact is wretched. What it does is export part of our energy price for transportation through the grocery store, right? We end up subsidizing the cost of our transportation infrastructure in the price of food stocks. Biofuels will solve some problems, but at the end of the day there's not enough land in the entire Mississippi River Valley to meet our transportation needs. And then where would we get food from? There's cellulosic, but that's only another 10 percent."
Latte liberals from various parts of the country (but especially from the middle west, it seems) will continue to fantasize about hemp as a panacea to our energy needs, but as Bradford points out, "at the end of the day, there's not enough land in the entire Mississippi River Valley to meet our transportation needs." He adds: "where would we get food from?" This is a question I have been asking on Alternet alot lately. Dream on guys.
The rest of us need to see the biofuel "dream" for the fantasy that it is and press forward with solar power. If we must drive cars, they too need to be powered by the sun!!! Biofuels are a pipe dream!!!
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» Oh boy, some people have the nerve to badmouth good ideas ! Grow up and give both a chance. Sheesh !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Bozeman, Pocatello, Missouli, Boise, Bismarck & Other Latte Liberal Red State University Towns. . .
Posted by: Douglas
» Neither Hemp Nor Biofuels Are Among The Ten Key Values of the Green Party
Posted by: Douglas
» Why Is BozemanBlues Preoccupied With Masterbation?
Posted by: Douglas
» And Why Am I Personally Responsible For NY's Failure to Implement Solar?
Posted by: Douglas
» If You Had Bothered To Read Bradford's Article You Would Know That It Is He I Am Citing And. . .
Posted by: Douglas
» Despite All The Abusive Language & Name-Calling, BosemanBlowhard Ignores the Point
Posted by: Douglas
» Biofuels can be cleanly produced, and they're far better than coal or oil or cattle ranching!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» The Devil Is In The Details Indeed!!
Posted by: Douglas
» There Is Such A Thing As Sustainable Grass-Fed Organic Cattle (and Other Meat) Production
Posted by: Douglas
» Does Big Oil Pay BozemanBlues & Other Hempnuts To Come Here And Make Hemp Look Bad?
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Here is one more take that makes sense to many.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Jerome Alicki on Dec 2, 2006 8:46 PM
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 3, 2006 1:07 AM
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To do this, an Edelman blogger might sign up at Alternet and would first try to 'make friends' using the 'personal touch' - for example, they'd agree wholeheartedly with all progressive viewpoints on women's rights, etc. However, when their "issue" comes up (be it global warming, renewable energy, or corrupt oil merchants) you'll see their real agenda come to the fore. If this sounds very dishonest and slimy - well, it is. That's why you should always look at the information content of posts, not who wrote them.
If you don't believe me, check out this quote I picked up off an Edelman PR discussion:Richard Edelman, CEO, in a Q&A session with industry insiders (I boldfaced the most relevant points):
"Eric: What will PR look like in 5 years?
A: PR involved earlier on in the product life cycle: We'll be a means by which a company can reach out to bloggers to affect prod development. Deconstructed press release. A more robust role in the corporate suite. I don't see PR as being disintermediated. David Weinberger [hey, that's me!] thinks PR gets in the way; no one wants to talk to the PR person. I think we should want the flak. We are indeed agents in that we represent our clients. I don't see that PR has to be a negative connotation, which it currently has. We have to be about truth, listening, learning, and telling the corporation stuff it doesn't want to hear. Five years from now, I hope PR people have the balls to say what they know. We need to give clients good advice. (We have thirty people blogging at Edelman. You learn by falling on your face.)
Q: What's the retraining process at Edelman like?
A: It's not easy. We have 30 people blogging. We probably have 15-20% who are regularly in touch with bloggers. That's pathetic. I have to be tougher about it.
Q: (Audience) A blogger got sued by an ad agency, who then dropped the suit. Is it a good idea to sue bloggers.
A: No.
Q: Are you modeling the topology of the blogosphere?
A: There isn't a model yet."
Now, look that over - these are a bunch of sophisticated swindlers. (topology of the blogosphere??!!) They also handle Wal-Marts PR contracts. I don't know if "Douglas" is one of them or not, or if "BozemanBlues" is one of them or not; I believe that "Edith" definitely is based on the long-winded assault on global warming science in the "African Apocalypse" alternet story (that hit all the talking points, I might add) - but notice the lack of information content in all of their posts.
Goebbels, the father of modern propaganda, always shied away from information-based arguments in favor of emotional polemics, because he wanted to stay as far away from the truth as possible. I can't emphasize this enough: forget about everything but the information content when you're reading the internet - don't 'make friends' with people you've never seen! The internet is the new PR playground.
Hopefully this will assist the readers of Alternet in understanding just how nasty and insidious PR strategies have become in the modern propaganda state. Good Night and Good Luck.
P.S. Renewable energy really is the only hope for the future of humanity.
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» Thanks, tc, you're a dead-set legend
Posted by: HeroesAll
» More information, less polemics - and why attack the author of this book?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Operation Paperclip hauled all the Nazi PR specialists over to the United States
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Accusations That The Person is a "corporate PR blogger" Attacks The Person & Is McCarthyite
Posted by: Douglas
» Once again, a post devoid of useful information - the first warning sign.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» You Are An Old Leftist, I Am A New Leftist and Edith I Can't Figure Out!
Posted by: Douglas
» Sorry to intrude, but...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Sorry to intrude, but...
Posted by: AdamG
» Let's get the record straight.
Posted by: edith
» You are wrong about global warming, period - and you're always protecting oil interests
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Why Do You Want To Contribute To Global Warming With Biofuels? You Need To Think Solar!
Posted by: Douglas
» Cite Evidence To Back Up Your Claims Or Be Still!!!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» When Biofuel Is On The Market, Big Ag/Big Oil Will Be Producing and Selling It!
Posted by: Douglas
» Trotsky Redux.
Posted by: edith
» RE: Trotsky Redux.
Posted by: rwa
» If We Are Going To Be So "Utopian," Let's Eliminate Carbon Rather Than Taxing It!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: If We Are Going To Be So "Utopian," Let's Eliminate Carbon Rather Than Taxing It!
Posted by: rwa
» Your comments on 'this global warming nonsense' are on the record
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Notice the diversionary tactics - noone has even mentioned Edelman so far!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Wikipedia, That Most Reliable of Sources, Where the Readers Can Edit, Add To or Remove Information
Posted by: Douglas
» Wikipedia at least includes some information, unlike your post...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Who Died And Appointed You Czar? Are You The Joe Stalin Of Alternet?
Posted by: Douglas
» It's called "Freedom of Speech", you twit!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Hear Hear
Posted by: DataDoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 3, 2006 10:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Biofuel production is very closely linked to the issue of fossil fuel inputs to agriculture. Use varies widely, but if you look at the total fossil fuel that goes into agicultural food production (fertilizer, tractors, herbicides, pesticides, transportation, processing, storage) then it becomes clear that all forms of agriculture need to be reformed. This means using crop rotation, perhaps solar/wind powered fertilizer production (turning N2 in the air into NH3 fertilizer), natural pest control, building up topsoil - it's called organic or sustainable farming.
If done correctly, this means that as the plant grows, it takes up CO2 from the air. The plant is converted to biofuel, and burned, and the CO2 goes back into the air. There is no net change in the amount of CO2 in the air as a result.
Now, Big Agribusiness is owned by the same corporate financiers who own Big Coal and Big Oil. That's why you can't rely on ADM or Cargill to invest in sustainable biofuel development - they'll do things like put coal-fired power plants in bioethanol refineries, for example, since their board members also sit on the boards of fossil fuel corporations.
Read what David Morris has to say on this issue: The Carbohydrate Economy:
Quote:"New technologies, new laws and an increasingly aware public are ushering in a new materials base for the 21st century - plant matter. Carbohydrates, the building blocks of plant matter, can be converted into chemicals, energy, textiles, building materials, paper, and many other industrial products. We call this new materials base a "carbohydrate economy." A carbohydrate economy reduces pollution, builds stronger rural communities, and supports a rooted farmer-owned manufacturing sector."
Getting back to the solar issue, let's take a look at China's use of solar as an example - here you have a fairly totalitarian state (with serious problems to overcome, it must be admitted) and they are about to build the world's largest solar plant. Thus, there is no reason to assume that solar is, to quote Douglas, "anti-corporate and decentralist and it will lead to political and economic decentralization and will promote grassroots democracy."
Nevertheless solar is a far better choice then coal in all circumstances. Sorting out the social and democratic issues is a bit of a separate topic.
So, as I predicted, you've got a lot of posters who are busy attacking renewable energy strategies that they disagree with, while they ignore the real culprits: the fossil fuel and nuclear corporations, and the associated financial structures. Let's just say that they are poorly informed or misled, and should reconsider their opinions.
Lordy - public relations operatives would never do anything dishonest or underhanded, would they? To say that they would - that'd be "McCarthyism"!
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» Solar Energy Will Happen In America One House At A Time!! No One Is Proposing "Solar Plants"!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Solar Energy Will Happen In America One House At A Time!! No One Is Proposing "Solar Plants"!
Posted by: AdamG
» You Are Quite Right! There Will Still Be A Solar Industry To Produce Panels & Other Solar Technology
Posted by: Douglas
» A couple of questions
Posted by: HeroesAll
» My problem with most "renewables"
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: My problem with most "renewables"
Posted by: HeroesAll
» TC, Re Biofuels: I Still Want To Know Where We Will Grow Food If All The Land Is Growing Biofuel?
Posted by: Douglas
» That's a tired old argument - do you know how much food we ship out of the US under subsidy?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Yours is the tired old argument. If we stopped using nitrogen fertilizer on cropland. . .
Posted by: Douglas
» BozemanBlues, The Montana Latte Liberal Hempnut Fails The Reading Comprehension Test Once Again . .
Posted by: Douglas
» The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Moving toward a "carbohydrate economy" is necessary but
Posted by: AdamG
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 3, 2006 1:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the case of Sacramento, the Public Municipal Utilities District initiated a program where they install solar units on rental units; they own and mainten the units and everyone gets a cheaper bill. During the 'California Energy Crisis' brought on by Enron, Duke, Reliant, (and Bush), SMUD rates were the lowest in the state.
Now we are also seeing basic building materials (like roof shingles and glass windows) that are photovoltaic as well. Every single skyscraper in the US should be made with photovoltaic solar glass. Solar plants aren't a bad idea, but it seems that rooftops are more convenient. Check out the details on solar glass at http://www.glassonweb.com/ glassmanual/topics/index/photo.htm.
Also, if all electricity is produced by wind and solar feeding into the grid, then you have to create some kind of energy storage system - the sun doesn't shine at night, when people want the lights on. That's a perfect role for public and private utilities to fill. If you want to go 'off-the-grid', then go for it - noone's stopping you.
I'd also far prefer to use biofuels produced from locally grown crops then gasoline and diesel produced from Nigerian and Iraqi and Venezuelan crude oil. Why are people so opposed to such a sensible strategy for getting off foreign oil? Any way you look at it, fossil fuels are more polluting than biofuels. Plus, the US auto fleet (diesel and gasoline) can cheaply be modified to use biodiesel and ethanol, unlike the case with electricity (though take a look at Tesla Motor's electric sports car at http://blog.wired.com/teslacar/).
Why don't we quit shipping government-subsidized corn to Mexico under NAFTA rules (where it wrecks local economies) and instead feed it into biofuel production? Cut back on the cattle feedlots (where a lot of the corn ends up) and make more ethanol? What exactly is wrong with such a strategy? The US population eats way too much beef (packed with hormones and antibiotics, I might add) and should move towards less meat in the diet anyway.
I've seen this argument so many times - Solar! No, Wind! No, Biofuels! No, Energy Conservation! It's the old circular firing squad in action - ridiculous! A real energy future will involve all of those strategies - in fact, it will require all of these strategies working in concert to have any hope of meeting basic energy demand levels.
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» Don't Forget About Passive Solar! Why Won't Renters Be The Same As Now?
Posted by: Douglas
» What, do you live in a Soviet-era housing project?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Thought Criminal revealed to be "PR Stooge" who disrupts Alternet discussions with obtuse comments
Posted by: Douglas
» Thought Criminal Is the Commie! BozemanBlowhard is the Dummy! Douglas Is The Left-Libertarian!
Posted by: Douglas
» You Really Are Impossible!! If Anyone Is Being Paid To Disrupt Discussions It Is You!
Posted by: Douglas
» I post links to solar glass sites. You scream about the evils of biofuels, and ignore Edelman
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» I Read Edelman, You're The One I'm Ignoring From Now On, Twit!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» Love it!
Posted by: DataDoc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: danielgeery on Dec 3, 2006 8:38 PM
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My family and I lived off the grid for 15 years in southeast Idaho, in an earth-sheltered solar-heated home. Photovoltaic powered as well. This was while my kids were learning in school that solar power wasn't feasible. We only learned about power failures when people talked about them the next day.
Transportation? If a guy like myself can
do this on a teacher's income, in addition to the above, I suppose the limits are just about what we decide they'll be.
You might also find my solar greenhouse book if you poke around online.
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Posted by: richviss on Dec 3, 2006 9:40 PM
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Rent of an appartment about 125 US$ amonth. And guess what In my building there are living AMERICAN people who do the same in summer in the states winter in Asia. Medical costs here very low.
You can live here with a wife and 2 daughters at highschool foor US$ 600 a month.
Windpower the Dutch windmills are from 1600, some are still working.
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Posted by: richviss on Dec 3, 2006 9:52 PM
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in houses. But in wintertime it is no option.
A solarsystem costs you about 1000 dollar and after 3 years you will have the hot water for bath and kitchen free for about 8 monthes a year.
Strange enough poor peeople have little interest in moneysaving strategies
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Posted by: symcokid on Dec 4, 2006 1:15 PM
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» RE: Politicians and energy.
Posted by: danielgeery
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Posted by: insulaparadigm on Dec 4, 2006 4:44 PM
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Just a small step to take charge of myself - if I can change the world / myself a little bit for the better.
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» AIDG
Posted by: insulaparadigm
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Posted by: AIE on Dec 5, 2006 6:24 AM
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Recongizing that the quote is probably an over-simplification, I have to ask about the likelihood that the U.S. would ever, regardless of what the fuel source is, be responsible for the production of its own resources. I think that the author does his argument a severe disservice by presenting the argument that because we as a nation cannot do it, we will not do it.
I understand his emphasis on the direct-to-user style of solar energy, but must bring up the examples of ongoing wind-power legislation we're currently seeing. While it doesn't negate the importance of the author's findings and arguments, I feel that someone should point out the ubiquitous NIMBY spectre that seems to pervade U.S. import/export policy.
A semi-related point of discussion: What impact would the success of biofuels have on the support of artifically cultured produce?
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Posted by: rsaxto on Dec 2, 2006 1:01 AM
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Posted by: jsong123 on Dec 2, 2006 3:29 AM
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How much baseload elecricity can wind energy supply to the grid?
10%
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» How Many People Want To Die?
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: Starcatcher
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: Starcatcher
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: edith
» What an Informative and Useful Post
Posted by: Douglas
» Statistically inaccurate
Posted by: SufiLizard
» A request for more information...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: A request for more information...
Posted by: biochemurgic
» RE: A request for more information...
Posted by: alibaba
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Overly dramaic, mathematically deficient
Posted by: lrrysgl
» Six of my friends brew their own beer
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: Artaraxl on Dec 2, 2006 4:55 AM
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The Solar Fraud: Why Solar Energy Won't Run the World, Second Edition by Howard C. Hayden
Amusing, no? Maybe it's best to get them both.
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» RE: Ironic Amazon recommendation: "Solar Fraud"
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Ironic Amazon recommendation: "Solar Fraud"
Posted by: pzzp
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 2, 2006 6:03 AM
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I'd add nuclear energy as another enemy of the human race; look at what the Chernobyl disaster did to the Ukraine and Central Europe - and there's no solution to the problem of long-term waste disposal or nuclear weapons proliferation.
The most polluting and disastrous industry in the United States is the coal business - the evidence is obvious, from the actions of Massey coal in mountaintop removal in the Appalachians to the damaged water on Hopi and Navajo reservations in the Southwest, to the open-pit mines of Montana. Billions of tons of CO2 are injected every year into the atmosphere from coal-fired electricity generation in the US and China, along with sulfur, nitrogen oxides, mercury and arsenic.
You can expect this article to bring out a whole horde of fossil fuel and utility PR trolls, who will make all kinds of claims - but the fact is, there's plenty of solar and wind available to generate electricity; there are technological issues that could be improved (like energy storage) but moving towards good electric cars is also going to help things out. The author is probably right about biofuels (particularly when the new Midwest ethanol plants are being bult with coal-fired power systems!).
What the utilities worry about is something called 'the death spiral'. If 10% of California goes solar, that means that utilities lose 10% of their market, and to maintain profit levels (the only thing their bankers and shareholders see) they'll have to raise rates, leading to more people switching to solar, and so on. Meanwhile, coal and natural gas suppliers will see shrinking markets and declining profits due to less demand for their product from electricity suppliers.
This is why the fossil fuel industry hires the world's best PR firms to attack the science behind global warming as well as the notion of renewable energy. Just watch...
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» Qualification on biofuels - they can indeed be non-polluting
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» "Can" and "Is" Are Not The Same Thing. The Technical Details Do Indeed Matter!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Qualification on biofuels - they can indeed be non-polluting
Posted by: AdamG
» Let's Hear It For the Bicycle and For Bicycling!!
Posted by: Douglas
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Posted by: mwildfire on Dec 2, 2006 6:19 AM
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I live in West Virginia, and I really LOVED the pull quote. The power plants that spew pollutants and greenhouse gases are mostly built close to the coal--which means we get the brunt of the environmental devastation from mining and washing and transporting coal, as well as from the plants and their wastes. It's very rare for a discussion of these issues to take into account ALL of the costs of coal--the subsidies are enormous, and hidden and unjust.
So I'd love to believe that a solar revolution is inevitable, but IS there enough silicon? What about the problem of intermittency? Major steps toward conservation and efficiency will no doubt be critical.
As for the comment that only people who brew their own beer will want solar panels, there are stations in the southwest that use concentrated mirrors to produce centralized solar power...and windmills are mostly big affairs powering the grid rather than individual homes. Perhaps people will have a choice, as they do now with beer.
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» RE: more information please
Posted by: malaparte
» A recommendation
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: more information please
Posted by: heftysmurf
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Posted by: flyingfish on Dec 2, 2006 7:03 AM
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» RE: ~`~
Posted by: Starcatcher
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Posted by: greentime on Dec 2, 2006 7:21 AM
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Passive solar, active solar, hybrid - it is simple and just makes sense. Common, healthy, sense. The sun is a fantastic source of energy. Our technology will improve and so will the efficiencies! Wind has an important place in this too.
The only question regarding solar and wind is this:
Should each of us operate our own private power sources or should we band together and operate them as PUBLICLY owned central power generating "plants"? The answer is pretty obvious.
There is NO question that they should not be privately owned. Oil and coal should have taught us that. Do you want someone like Bush and Co. to own the rights to the sun? How ridiculous does that sound? The sun - should we pay some rich family for the right to use it? Uh, no.
Now, if we can just get the ugly oily oiligarchy out of our way, we can be about the work of creating a sutainable, clean energy culture that lives peacefully and in balance with the planets web of life.
Or would you rather "stay the course"?
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Posted by: boing007 on Dec 2, 2006 7:29 AM
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James Stewart starred in a movie in the 1930's. I can't remember the title, but in one particular moment during this film, Stewart rhapsodized for several minutes about the wonders of Solar Energy.
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» RE: Solar Energy Long Overdue - Government owns the Sun.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Door man on Dec 2, 2006 8:29 AM
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I have the correct slant on the same roof to put in photovoltaics... which I will do the minute someone can show me any cost advantageous or even payback to zero.
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» RE: solar radiant more efficient and effective
Posted by: Carl Street
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Posted by: wobblies on Dec 2, 2006 9:51 AM
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What are your and the author's views on Copper-Indium-Gallium-Diselenide (CIGS) as an alternative material to silicon? Did you discuss this potential breakthroughs being worked on in places like South Africa?
God Speed,
David Elliott
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» RE: Copper-Indium-Gallium-Diselenide (CIGS)
Posted by: Logic's Edge
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Posted by: rwa on Dec 2, 2006 9:59 AM
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 2, 2006 11:11 AM
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Solar won't be the end-all-be-all for driving U.S. consumer energy needs, but it can make a big impact if combined with reciprocal and complimentary technologies.
The ability for U.S. consumers to "get off the grid" (with some potentially heavy investment) will undoubtedly get here, mostly for reasons of economic self-interest. Much more interesting to me was the treatment of the topic of solar use in the third world.
I may have to read more of this one...
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» RE: xcellent article. Peaked my interest in the book.
Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: xcellent article. Peaked my interest in the book.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 2, 2006 12:29 PM
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"And then these cell-phone producers came along and, in the Telecommunications Act of '96, were given access to the telephone grid. They began to go completely around the supply chain and offer competing services to the same customers, wireless and easier."
Cell phone companies didn't decentralize telecomminications; they simply produced another centralized system – which is way more expensive for poorer service. Try using your cell phone without access to a tower or satellite transmission –– and how many times does your land-line drop calls? What destroyed economical land-line service for customers was deregulation of the Bells, not centralization. We once had the most reliable phone system – hell, of any system – in the world, and our government wrecked it for us.
Don't get me wrong; I am in agreement that decentralized solar power would be a marvelous thing (in Calif. where I live, if you produce more power than you use, the utilities have to buy it back). I worry, though, that there is still a bottleneck: production of the panels and systems by centralized corporations. We cannot build our own; we are still dependent on rapacious companies for the technology, and with the corporate zeitgeist of collusion and price-fixing that has the blessing of our supposed "leaders," expect to be screwed by this technology as well.
I wish it were not so; I wish I were less of a pessimist – but I see how the system works today. Without regulation from a benevolent government, corporations – including those producing solar power technology – will do what they always do: rip off the consumer.
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» RE: YES!!. . .but. . .
Posted by: rwa
» RE: YES!!. . .but. . .
Posted by: edith
» RE: YES!!. . .but. . .
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: solrey on Dec 2, 2006 3:27 PM
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I've lived in self-sufficient communities so I know that this can be done, even with current technology and limited financial resources.
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» Plus passive solar
Posted by: solrey
» How about energy swaps between the existing grid and solar installations rather than storage?
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 2, 2006 4:17 PM
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Dec 2, 2006 5:21 PM
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Tracy Staedter, Discovery News
May 31, 2006 — A for-profit home builder has constructed a house priced under $200,000 that, in an average year, costs nothing to power or heat.
The so-called zero-energy home, built by Norman, Oklahoma-based Ideal Homes, is priced affordably even though it incorporates some of the latest technology and energy-efficient construction available today.
Do a Google Search for "Zero Energy Home Enters Affordable Range" to locate the full article.
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Dec 2, 2006 5:30 PM
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Dec 2, 2006 5:38 PM
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Posted by: edith on Dec 2, 2006 5:50 PM
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I was concerned about the following statement made by the interviewee:
" The telephone utilities ... first they ignored it, then they tried to fight it legislatively, and when they lost that they tried to fight it economically. Eventually they just decided, screw it, we're going to buy them. Today those are the most profitable parts of their business. That's the transformation."
The transformation will be that we get screwed on solar like the utilities screw us now on coal and nuke generated power?
I haven't heard Pelosi or Clinton yap much about public power. Nor do I expect to. You know. Sounds too much like the "New Deal" that DLC Dems love to hate.
Ironically, given the monopoly nature of power transmission, this is an area(delivery) where free market solutions as to delivery at least may not make sense, so ol FDR and the TVA were prescient!
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» RE: solar is the hot new stock?
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: Douglas on Dec 2, 2006 6:49 PM
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Posted by: Douglas on Dec 2, 2006 7:09 PM
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"I'm not a big fan of biofuels--on close examination their environmental impact is wretched. What it does is export part of our energy price for transportation through the grocery store, right? We end up subsidizing the cost of our transportation infrastructure in the price of food stocks. Biofuels will solve some problems, but at the end of the day there's not enough land in the entire Mississippi River Valley to meet our transportation needs. And then where would we get food from? There's cellulosic, but that's only another 10 percent."
Latte liberals from various parts of the country (but especially from the middle west, it seems) will continue to fantasize about hemp as a panacea to our energy needs, but as Bradford points out, "at the end of the day, there's not enough land in the entire Mississippi River Valley to meet our transportation needs." He adds: "where would we get food from?" This is a question I have been asking on Alternet alot lately. Dream on guys.
The rest of us need to see the biofuel "dream" for the fantasy that it is and press forward with solar power. If we must drive cars, they too need to be powered by the sun!!! Biofuels are a pipe dream!!!
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» Oh boy, some people have the nerve to badmouth good ideas ! Grow up and give both a chance. Sheesh !
Posted by: maxpayne
» Bozeman, Pocatello, Missouli, Boise, Bismarck & Other Latte Liberal Red State University Towns. . .
Posted by: Douglas
» Neither Hemp Nor Biofuels Are Among The Ten Key Values of the Green Party
Posted by: Douglas
» Why Is BozemanBlues Preoccupied With Masterbation?
Posted by: Douglas
» And Why Am I Personally Responsible For NY's Failure to Implement Solar?
Posted by: Douglas
» If You Had Bothered To Read Bradford's Article You Would Know That It Is He I Am Citing And. . .
Posted by: Douglas
» Despite All The Abusive Language & Name-Calling, BosemanBlowhard Ignores the Point
Posted by: Douglas
» Biofuels can be cleanly produced, and they're far better than coal or oil or cattle ranching!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» The Devil Is In The Details Indeed!!
Posted by: Douglas
» There Is Such A Thing As Sustainable Grass-Fed Organic Cattle (and Other Meat) Production
Posted by: Douglas
» Does Big Oil Pay BozemanBlues & Other Hempnuts To Come Here And Make Hemp Look Bad?
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Here is one more take that makes sense to many.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Jerome Alicki on Dec 2, 2006 8:46 PM
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 3, 2006 1:07 AM
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To do this, an Edelman blogger might sign up at Alternet and would first try to 'make friends' using the 'personal touch' - for example, they'd agree wholeheartedly with all progressive viewpoints on women's rights, etc. However, when their "issue" comes up (be it global warming, renewable energy, or corrupt oil merchants) you'll see their real agenda come to the fore. If this sounds very dishonest and slimy - well, it is. That's why you should always look at the information content of posts, not who wrote them.
If you don't believe me, check out this quote I picked up off an Edelman PR discussion:Richard Edelman, CEO, in a Q&A session with industry insiders (I boldfaced the most relevant points):
"Eric: What will PR look like in 5 years?
A: PR involved earlier on in the product life cycle: We'll be a means by which a company can reach out to bloggers to affect prod development. Deconstructed press release. A more robust role in the corporate suite. I don't see PR as being disintermediated. David Weinberger [hey, that's me!] thinks PR gets in the way; no one wants to talk to the PR person. I think we should want the flak. We are indeed agents in that we represent our clients. I don't see that PR has to be a negative connotation, which it currently has. We have to be about truth, listening, learning, and telling the corporation stuff it doesn't want to hear. Five years from now, I hope PR people have the balls to say what they know. We need to give clients good advice. (We have thirty people blogging at Edelman. You learn by falling on your face.)
Q: What's the retraining process at Edelman like?
A: It's not easy. We have 30 people blogging. We probably have 15-20% who are regularly in touch with bloggers. That's pathetic. I have to be tougher about it.
Q: (Audience) A blogger got sued by an ad agency, who then dropped the suit. Is it a good idea to sue bloggers.
A: No.
Q: Are you modeling the topology of the blogosphere?
A: There isn't a model yet."
Now, look that over - these are a bunch of sophisticated swindlers. (topology of the blogosphere??!!) They also handle Wal-Marts PR contracts. I don't know if "Douglas" is one of them or not, or if "BozemanBlues" is one of them or not; I believe that "Edith" definitely is based on the long-winded assault on global warming science in the "African Apocalypse" alternet story (that hit all the talking points, I might add) - but notice the lack of information content in all of their posts.
Goebbels, the father of modern propaganda, always shied away from information-based arguments in favor of emotional polemics, because he wanted to stay as far away from the truth as possible. I can't emphasize this enough: forget about everything but the information content when you're reading the internet - don't 'make friends' with people you've never seen! The internet is the new PR playground.
Hopefully this will assist the readers of Alternet in understanding just how nasty and insidious PR strategies have become in the modern propaganda state. Good Night and Good Luck.
P.S. Renewable energy really is the only hope for the future of humanity.
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» Thanks, tc, you're a dead-set legend
Posted by: HeroesAll
» More information, less polemics - and why attack the author of this book?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Operation Paperclip hauled all the Nazi PR specialists over to the United States
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Accusations That The Person is a "corporate PR blogger" Attacks The Person & Is McCarthyite
Posted by: Douglas
» Once again, a post devoid of useful information - the first warning sign.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» You Are An Old Leftist, I Am A New Leftist and Edith I Can't Figure Out!
Posted by: Douglas
» Sorry to intrude, but...
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Sorry to intrude, but...
Posted by: AdamG
» Let's get the record straight.
Posted by: edith
» You are wrong about global warming, period - and you're always protecting oil interests
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Why Do You Want To Contribute To Global Warming With Biofuels? You Need To Think Solar!
Posted by: Douglas
» Cite Evidence To Back Up Your Claims Or Be Still!!!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» When Biofuel Is On The Market, Big Ag/Big Oil Will Be Producing and Selling It!
Posted by: Douglas
» Trotsky Redux.
Posted by: edith
» RE: Trotsky Redux.
Posted by: rwa
» If We Are Going To Be So "Utopian," Let's Eliminate Carbon Rather Than Taxing It!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: If We Are Going To Be So "Utopian," Let's Eliminate Carbon Rather Than Taxing It!
Posted by: rwa
» Your comments on 'this global warming nonsense' are on the record
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Notice the diversionary tactics - noone has even mentioned Edelman so far!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Wikipedia, That Most Reliable of Sources, Where the Readers Can Edit, Add To or Remove Information
Posted by: Douglas
» Wikipedia at least includes some information, unlike your post...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Who Died And Appointed You Czar? Are You The Joe Stalin Of Alternet?
Posted by: Douglas
» It's called "Freedom of Speech", you twit!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Hear Hear
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 3, 2006 10:34 AM
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Biofuel production is very closely linked to the issue of fossil fuel inputs to agriculture. Use varies widely, but if you look at the total fossil fuel that goes into agicultural food production (fertilizer, tractors, herbicides, pesticides, transportation, processing, storage) then it becomes clear that all forms of agriculture need to be reformed. This means using crop rotation, perhaps solar/wind powered fertilizer production (turning N2 in the air into NH3 fertilizer), natural pest control, building up topsoil - it's called organic or sustainable farming.
If done correctly, this means that as the plant grows, it takes up CO2 from the air. The plant is converted to biofuel, and burned, and the CO2 goes back into the air. There is no net change in the amount of CO2 in the air as a result.
Now, Big Agribusiness is owned by the same corporate financiers who own Big Coal and Big Oil. That's why you can't rely on ADM or Cargill to invest in sustainable biofuel development - they'll do things like put coal-fired power plants in bioethanol refineries, for example, since their board members also sit on the boards of fossil fuel corporations.
Read what David Morris has to say on this issue: The Carbohydrate Economy:
Quote:"New technologies, new laws and an increasingly aware public are ushering in a new materials base for the 21st century - plant matter. Carbohydrates, the building blocks of plant matter, can be converted into chemicals, energy, textiles, building materials, paper, and many other industrial products. We call this new materials base a "carbohydrate economy." A carbohydrate economy reduces pollution, builds stronger rural communities, and supports a rooted farmer-owned manufacturing sector."
Getting back to the solar issue, let's take a look at China's use of solar as an example - here you have a fairly totalitarian state (with serious problems to overcome, it must be admitted) and they are about to build the world's largest solar plant. Thus, there is no reason to assume that solar is, to quote Douglas, "anti-corporate and decentralist and it will lead to political and economic decentralization and will promote grassroots democracy."
Nevertheless solar is a far better choice then coal in all circumstances. Sorting out the social and democratic issues is a bit of a separate topic.
So, as I predicted, you've got a lot of posters who are busy attacking renewable energy strategies that they disagree with, while they ignore the real culprits: the fossil fuel and nuclear corporations, and the associated financial structures. Let's just say that they are poorly informed or misled, and should reconsider their opinions.
Lordy - public relations operatives would never do anything dishonest or underhanded, would they? To say that they would - that'd be "McCarthyism"!
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» Solar Energy Will Happen In America One House At A Time!! No One Is Proposing "Solar Plants"!
Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Solar Energy Will Happen In America One House At A Time!! No One Is Proposing "Solar Plants"!
Posted by: AdamG
» You Are Quite Right! There Will Still Be A Solar Industry To Produce Panels & Other Solar Technology
Posted by: Douglas
» A couple of questions
Posted by: HeroesAll
» My problem with most "renewables"
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: My problem with most "renewables"
Posted by: HeroesAll
» TC, Re Biofuels: I Still Want To Know Where We Will Grow Food If All The Land Is Growing Biofuel?
Posted by: Douglas
» That's a tired old argument - do you know how much food we ship out of the US under subsidy?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Yours is the tired old argument. If we stopped using nitrogen fertilizer on cropland. . .
Posted by: Douglas
» BozemanBlues, The Montana Latte Liberal Hempnut Fails The Reading Comprehension Test Once Again . .
Posted by: Douglas
» The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: The "Green Revolution" was just a marketing scam for Big Oil - antibiotics created long lifespans
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Moving toward a "carbohydrate economy" is necessary but
Posted by: AdamG
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 3, 2006 1:14 PM
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In the case of Sacramento, the Public Municipal Utilities District initiated a program where they install solar units on rental units; they own and mainten the units and everyone gets a cheaper bill. During the 'California Energy Crisis' brought on by Enron, Duke, Reliant, (and Bush), SMUD rates were the lowest in the state.
Now we are also seeing basic building materials (like roof shingles and glass windows) that are photovoltaic as well. Every single skyscraper in the US should be made with photovoltaic solar glass. Solar plants aren't a bad idea, but it seems that rooftops are more convenient. Check out the details on solar glass at http://www.glassonweb.com/ glassmanual/topics/index/photo.htm.
Also, if all electricity is produced by wind and solar feeding into the grid, then you have to create some kind of energy storage system - the sun doesn't shine at night, when people want the lights on. That's a perfect role for public and private utilities to fill. If you want to go 'off-the-grid', then go for it - noone's stopping you.
I'd also far prefer to use biofuels produced from locally grown crops then gasoline and diesel produced from Nigerian and Iraqi and Venezuelan crude oil. Why are people so opposed to such a sensible strategy for getting off foreign oil? Any way you look at it, fossil fuels are more polluting than biofuels. Plus, the US auto fleet (diesel and gasoline) can cheaply be modified to use biodiesel and ethanol, unlike the case with electricity (though take a look at Tesla Motor's electric sports car at http://blog.wired.com/teslacar/).
Why don't we quit shipping government-subsidized corn to Mexico under NAFTA rules (where it wrecks local economies) and instead feed it into biofuel production? Cut back on the cattle feedlots (where a lot of the corn ends up) and make more ethanol? What exactly is wrong with such a strategy? The US population eats way too much beef (packed with hormones and antibiotics, I might add) and should move towards less meat in the diet anyway.
I've seen this argument so many times - Solar! No, Wind! No, Biofuels! No, Energy Conservation! It's the old circular firing squad in action - ridiculous! A real energy future will involve all of those strategies - in fact, it will require all of these strategies working in concert to have any hope of meeting basic energy demand levels.
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» Don't Forget About Passive Solar! Why Won't Renters Be The Same As Now?
Posted by: Douglas
» What, do you live in a Soviet-era housing project?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Thought Criminal revealed to be "PR Stooge" who disrupts Alternet discussions with obtuse comments
Posted by: Douglas
» Thought Criminal Is the Commie! BozemanBlowhard is the Dummy! Douglas Is The Left-Libertarian!
Posted by: Douglas
» You Really Are Impossible!! If Anyone Is Being Paid To Disrupt Discussions It Is You!
Posted by: Douglas
» I post links to solar glass sites. You scream about the evils of biofuels, and ignore Edelman
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» I Read Edelman, You're The One I'm Ignoring From Now On, Twit!!!
Posted by: Douglas
» Love it!
Posted by: DataDoc
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Posted by: danielgeery on Dec 3, 2006 8:38 PM
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My family and I lived off the grid for 15 years in southeast Idaho, in an earth-sheltered solar-heated home. Photovoltaic powered as well. This was while my kids were learning in school that solar power wasn't feasible. We only learned about power failures when people talked about them the next day.
Transportation? If a guy like myself can
do this on a teacher's income, in addition to the above, I suppose the limits are just about what we decide they'll be.
You might also find my solar greenhouse book if you poke around online.
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Posted by: richviss on Dec 3, 2006 9:40 PM
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Rent of an appartment about 125 US$ amonth. And guess what In my building there are living AMERICAN people who do the same in summer in the states winter in Asia. Medical costs here very low.
You can live here with a wife and 2 daughters at highschool foor US$ 600 a month.
Windpower the Dutch windmills are from 1600, some are still working.
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Posted by: richviss on Dec 3, 2006 9:52 PM
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in houses. But in wintertime it is no option.
A solarsystem costs you about 1000 dollar and after 3 years you will have the hot water for bath and kitchen free for about 8 monthes a year.
Strange enough poor peeople have little interest in moneysaving strategies
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Posted by: symcokid on Dec 4, 2006 1:15 PM
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» RE: Politicians and energy.
Posted by: danielgeery
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Posted by: insulaparadigm on Dec 4, 2006 4:44 PM
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Just a small step to take charge of myself - if I can change the world / myself a little bit for the better.
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» AIDG
Posted by: insulaparadigm
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Posted by: AIE on Dec 5, 2006 6:24 AM
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Recongizing that the quote is probably an over-simplification, I have to ask about the likelihood that the U.S. would ever, regardless of what the fuel source is, be responsible for the production of its own resources. I think that the author does his argument a severe disservice by presenting the argument that because we as a nation cannot do it, we will not do it.
I understand his emphasis on the direct-to-user style of solar energy, but must bring up the examples of ongoing wind-power legislation we're currently seeing. While it doesn't negate the importance of the author's findings and arguments, I feel that someone should point out the ubiquitous NIMBY spectre that seems to pervade U.S. import/export policy.
A semi-related point of discussion: What impact would the success of biofuels have on the support of artifically cultured produce?
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