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Ten Fallacies About the Violence in Iraq

By John Tirman, AlterNet. Posted November 28, 2006.


The distortions about the violence in Iraq persist even as the mayhem increases. Here are ten of the worst myths being spread in the media.

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The escalating violence in Iraq's civil war is now earning considerable attention as we pass yet another milestone -- U.S. occupation there, in two weeks, will exceed the length of the Second World War for America. While the news media have finally started to grapple with the colossal amount of killing, a number of misunderstandings persist. Some are willful deceptions. Let's look at a few of them:

1. The U.S. is a buffer against more violence. This is perhaps the most resilient conjecture that has no basis in fact.

Iraqis themselves do not believe it. In a State Department poll published in September, huge majorities say the U.S. is directly responsible for the violence. The upsurge of bloodshed in Baghdad seems to confirm the Iraqis' view, at least by inference. The much-publicized U.S. effort to bring troops to Baghdad to quell sectarian killing has accompanied a period of increased mortality in the city.

2. The killers do it to influence U.S. politics. This was the mantra of right-wing bloggers and cable blowhards like Bill O'Reilly, who asserted time and again before November 7 that the violence was a "Tet offensive" designed to tarnish Bush and convince Americans to vote for Democrats. This is American solipsism, at which the right wing excels. If anything, the violence has grown since November 7.

English-language sources have more than 1,000 dead since the Bush rejection at the polls. Bill, are the Iraqi fighters now aiming at the Iowa caucuses in '08?

3. The "Lancet" numbers are bogus. Since the only scientific survey of deaths in Iraq was published in The Lancet in early October, the discourse on Iraqi casualties has changed. But many in media and policy circles are still in denial about the scale of mayhem.

Anthony Cordesman, Fred Kaplan, and Michael O'Hanlon, among many others, fail to understand the method of the survey -- widely used and praised by leading epidemiologists -- which concluded that between 400,000 and 700,000 Iraqis have died in the conflict. One knowledegable commentator describes the Lancet survey as "flypaper for innumerates," and the deniers indeed look foolishly innumerate when they state that there was "no way" there could be more than 65,000 or 100,000 deaths. As soon as that bit of ignorance rolled off their lips, the Iraq Health Ministry admitted to 150,000 civilians killed by Sunni insurgents alone, which would be in the Lancet ballpark. Much other evidence suggests the Lancet numbers are about right. (See "The Human cost of the War in Iraq" here; fyi, I commissioned the study. More on this another time.)

4. Syria and Iran are behind the violence. There is no compelling reason why the two neighbors would foment large-scale violence that could spill over to threaten their regimes. Iran is in the driver's seat -- as everyone not blinded by neo-con fantasies knew in advance -- with its Shia cousins in power; Syria has its own regime stability problems and does not need the large influx of refugees or potential jihadis. That both are happy to make life hard for the U.S. is not a secret (call it their Monroe Doctrine). But are they organizing the extreme and destabilizing violence we've seen this year? Doubtful. And, there's very little evidence to support this piece of blame-someone-else.

5. The "Go Big" strategy of the Pentagon could work. The Pentagon apparently is about to forward three options to Bush for a retreat: "Go Big," meaning more troops for a short time, "Go Long," a gradual withdrawal while training Iraqis, and "Go Home," acknowledging defeat and getting out. Go Big is what McCain and Zinni and others are proposing, as if adding 20,000 or 30,000 troops will do the trick. The argument about more troops, which speaks also to the "incompetence dodge" (i.e., that the war wasn't wrong, just badly managed), has one problem: no one can convincing prove that modest increments in troop strength will change the security situation in Iraq (see #1 above). One would need 300,000 or more troops to have a chance of pacifying Iraq, and that is neither politically feasible or logistically possible, and is therefore a nonstarter. So is "Go Big."


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John Tirman is Executive Director of MIT's Center for International Studies.

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Reality
Posted by: Intraspecto on Nov 28, 2006 1:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that the end of the war is comming...most likely with a U.S. withdrawl that will be tempered by the attitude of "hurrah, we have done all we could." Furthermore, there is probably not going to be any sort of hearings over the war, and those in power will continue to deny any wrongdoing over funding, and deception of the American people on a wholescale level. Sad thing is- how many more G.I.'s have to die for their self-serving political masters? Every day is another one that Americans bleed and die for a lost cause. Just today, the neo-conservatives have finally come out and really said- There "might" be a civil war going on. The military is clamoring for more people, funding, and equipment, and both the congress and the American people are saying no. I am hoping that we leave sooner than later, and rebuild our own nation instead of continue towards Imperial Conquests that will ultimately doom our nation much like Britain was doomed during her heyday. The saddest thing is not the Iraqi's- I can promise you without a doubt that they will continue fighting until another power (such as Iran) steps in, or they become an extremist Muslim nation- but the 3,000 or so soldiers who died because of (at very least) bad intelligence (or very worst) an all out lie and greed on an imaginable scale, based around fear and nationalism. Worse yet, they will come home and not get the treatment or care they need- they will most likely be abandoned like the Vietnam generation of soldiers- by both the public at large because of their anti-Iraq war sentiments, and the government that does not want to acknowledge its mistakes nor pay the price of caring for these men and women for the rest of their lives. It is a sad day for our nation.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: eality Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: eality Posted by: cmd
» RE: eality Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: eality Posted by: pedex
» You. Are. Such. A. Knob. Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: You. Are. Such. A. Knob. Posted by: Intraspecto
» RE: You. Are. Such. A. Knob. Posted by: bones288
» Imperialism.... Posted by: indy675
» RE: eality Posted by: symcokid
» RE: eality Posted by: Intraspecto
US presence in the region necessary as hedge against iranian hegemony
Posted by: give_peace_a_chance on Nov 28, 2006 2:22 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if the democrats and leftists like this commentator force the surrender of iraq to shia extremists then the following developments will occur:

1) tens of thousands of iraqis will die, mostly sunnis.

2) the iranian funded and armed shia extremists will gain power and form an islamic dictatorship along the lines of the regime in iran (which by the way is developing nuclear weaponry).

3) this new "caliphate" will immediately began exporting violence throughout the middle east in an effort to expand islamic influence (the commentator posits incorrectly that iran does not want to "destablilize" the region, he is wrong as iran is behind much of the increasing violence in the middle east--see hezbollah).

4) jordan, lebanon, and afghanistan will be the first to fall as iranian/iraqi inspired revolution will sweep these moderate govts out of power in an uncontrolled wave of islamic fervor.

5) north africa will experience unrest and be subjected to overthrow at the hands of violent islamic extremists funded, armed, and trained by iranian sources.

6) increasing terrorist activity in the balkans will dangerously destablize that region

7) terrorist activity will increase in europe, thousands will die.

8) egypt will fall, israel will be forced to react against increasing iranian threats by launching a pre-emptive strike, possibly nuclear.

9) thanks to israeli action, the islamic offensive will be temporarily halted.

10) the rest depends on US action and what, if any, pacifist leftist control is still present in the US govt.

the democrats will have been exposed as weak on national security and they will have severely weakened the US economy by disrupting free trade and implementing anti-growth initiatives. it is possible that the US will have a conservative/libertarian govt in place that can follow-up on the israel offensive to stop islamic extremism.

basically, this leftist commentator's plan for the middle east involves three plans: (1) criticize the decision to attack iraq, (2) criticize US missteps since the war began, and (3) to leave iraq.

the first two while justified are self-serving and the last is dangerous.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Self-serving? Posted by: Artaraxl
» You are an ignorant buffoon Posted by: HeroesAll
» give-ignorant-buffoon-a-chance Posted by: cold2touch
» Say, What? Posted by: shangrilalad
» Nonsense, all round Posted by: brunowe
» Is such nonsense stupid or evil? Posted by: Serafim Tkachuk
best
Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 28, 2006 2:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best the USA can do for Iraqis/Americans is to rapidly withdraw all our troops/airpower. This will give Iraqis their own true government faster, stop all large-scale killings faster, get Iraq rebuilt faster, get to democracy faster, stop American casualties faster, get electricity faster, increase oil sales faster, get Iraqis unified faster, get schools running faster, get people employed faster, etc. All this good stuff tends to happen whenever criminal occupiers withdraw. So withdraw, already.

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» RE: best Posted by: Intraspecto
» RE: Best -- but Wait a Minute....! Posted by: allUneedislove
» RE: best Posted by: rsaxto
Alot of people should are culpable
Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 28, 2006 3:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not just the Bush White who should be held to account for the mess we now find ourselves in. One cannot help but speculate that, were Edward R. Murrow, Eric Severeid, John Chancellor and Davis Brinkley still around, we might not ever had gone down this road. Our parent's generation were better informed; no question about it.

Were Jack O'Brien, Drew Pearson, Walter Lippman and Lars-Eric Nelson still alive maybe we would have taken pause and not have committed the worst military blunder in American history.

Hell, if all of these people were still on the beat, so to speak, is it not fair to speculate that we might not even have elected the most overtly criminal president in history? They kept us informed and they had courage. While Walter Cronkite is still among us, he has long since ceased being the voice of information and enlightenment. But it's hard not to remember his commentary after a visit to Saigon in February 1969. He told it the way it was: this war is over. We have lost it. Get used to the idea.

IT's really kind of sad that the man with the most gravitas with respect to journalistic guts is not even a "journalist", in the stricktest sense of the word, but former ESPN sports reporter, Keith Obermann. Thank God for him.

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» Right on, MonkeyBoy! Posted by: Tom Degan
» Tom - You Forgot I.F. Stone Posted by: Gazza126
» Right on, Gazza126! Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Alot of people should are culpable Posted by: Conservasaurus
hypocrisy is a wonderful thing
Posted by: BlueStateBitch on Nov 28, 2006 3:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"is it a stretch to assert that his motive was to prevent a reckless and anti-American despot (saddam) from furthering the threat of a violent and costly terror attack in the USA by facilitating the transfer of WMD technology or actual WMD weaponry to a terrorist group?"


Our supposed "allies", the Pakistanis, are responsible for giving away nuclear secrets to North Korea and others, yet we support them. The scientist guilty of the knowledge transfer has not been punished, nor will he be.

Saying that Saddam was going to enable terrorists is ridiculous. That wasn't his MO.

Now we have thousands of new terrorists around the world who hate our guts and are avidly seeking WMDs to use against us. We should have left Saddam alone where we could keep an eye on him.

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» Great catch BSB! Posted by: jreinhart1
» RE: hypocrisy is a wonderful thing Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
Number 11...
Posted by: colinmeister on Nov 28, 2006 4:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
11. "The number of Iraqis killed by the Saddam Hussein government forces was far greater than the number who have died since the U.S.A. liberated Iraq and established democracy."

I have heard this one ever since the war beagan. It was probably true at that time, but what are the figures at present, and in the projected future?

If U.S. and allied froces pulled out now, the Neo-Cons could still claim victory. It would be in the form of a threat to every other country in the world:
"Do what the U.S. tells you, exactly, to the letter, or we will invade, lay your country to waste, start a civil war, and leave you to kill each other for the scraps that are left, just like we did in Iraq."

Maybe my last comment was over cynical.

I think all foreign troops should pull out of Iraq by the end of 2006.

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» RE: Number 11... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Number 11... Posted by: laoma
» RE: Number 11... Posted by: symcokid
» RE: Number 11... Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: Number 11... Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Number 11... Posted by: bones288
» RE: Number 11... Posted by: bones288
the left is reckless in its disregard of the threat from iran.
Posted by: give_peace_a_chance on Nov 28, 2006 5:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Note the following quotes from the leader of iran that many leftists on this blog consider “harmless”

Note also that iran is aggressively pursuing nuclear weaponry that the left naively thinks ahmadinejad is pursuing for peaceful purposes.

“Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,” --ahmadinejad

Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the
Islamic countries due to their need.” --ahmadinejad

We believe that atomic energy is a blessing given by God,” --ahmadinejad

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets." --ahmadinejad

"[There is] no significant need for the United States." --ahmadinejad

"We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point - that is the Almighty God. My question for you is, 'Do you not want to join them?'"--ahmadinejad

The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world. --ahmadinejad

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» RE: the left is reckless in its disregard of the threat from iran. Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
check out this cite--WARNING TO BRAINWASHED LEFTISTS --damage to your "programming" could result!
Posted by: give_peace_a_chance on Nov 28, 2006 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

note that many of the attacks by islamists don't have anything to do with the US or its war in iraq.

the left/liberals disregarded and minimized the communist threat during the cold war and today they are minimizing the islamic extremist threat.

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» Oh, get real! Posted by: indy675
» Yes Libs need to get real! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Yes Libs need to get real! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Yes Libs need to get real! Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
One element completely missed
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Nov 28, 2006 6:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And that's the economic fallout of Iraq. Look at just one thing, and it will tell you all you need to know. That's the dollar index. When it falls below 80, you can kiss your economic future goodbye.

Want a parallel? Check out the Vietnam war. Nixon wanted to be the hero and escalated the war, while claiming his absurd "Vietnization" of the fighting. One cute little stunt needed to keep financing the war was to close the "gold window" to keep the French and other foreigners from claiming gold as inflation destroyed the dollar. We ended up with the dollar officially losing 75 percent of its purchasing power as the dollar supply increased exponentially. Classic inflation.

Now we have a situation where the debt load has reached astronomical levels, where the USA manufactures very little, buys more than it sells and depends on India, China, Japan and others to keep the dollar afloat.

We can leave Iraq now, or wait for a financial collapse and then leave the way the Russians left Afganistan. No face saving way to do it.

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It's all about the OIL
Posted by: MonkeyBoy on Nov 28, 2006 7:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oil is why we went into Iraq in the first place. It's also why we'll never leave. End of story.

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» RE: It's all about the OIL Posted by: symcokid
» RE: It's all about the OIL Posted by: shoosta
Violence in Iraq
Posted by: badkitty on Nov 28, 2006 7:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At Thanksgiving, my brother-in-law, who worked for Bechtel in Iraq from January 2004 until November 2005, said he didn't think the violence was any greater now than when he first got there, the media is just reporting it more... That would help explain the Lancet's 600,000 dead.

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American Citizens are responsible for Iraqi violence
Posted by: tashi on Nov 28, 2006 8:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US is a democracy. Since the US invasion of Iraq, Americans have for the most part elected the war-mongers, including the war-criminals aka the Bush White House.
The chaos brought about by US invasion was by design. The disbanding of Iraqi army, and not securing the weapons depots ensured that there would be huge proliferation of unemployed armed men in Iraq.
Together with the collapse of bureacracy by getting rid of all the bathists, and the civilian infrastructure, all have fueled this violence.
Americans need to look at themselves in the mirror. As the citizens of the empire they are resposnible (as they vote) for every death that is caused by their government.
Why do they hate us? Because we elect government after government that seeks to maintain US hegemony over the world's resources.
As we elect the governments and reap the benefits, we must also take full responsibility for the consequences.

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Karen Kwiatkowski
Posted by: rwa on Nov 28, 2006 8:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We Must Do What?

The neoconservative moment in American politics has not passed, and it won’t for some time. It is a fundamental part of our modern American empire, and most people seem to like the idea of being in the upper echelons of a great empire, even if it is an illusion. There is also something utterly and basely human about the whole neoconservative political outlook that tells me we won’t be rid of it easily.

Neoconservatism encourages our natural reluctance to believe that other countries might be populated with mothers and daughters just like us, sons and fathers like our own, caring friends and neighbors who look out for us, and happy children filled with dreams. While advocating democracy and "freedom" for these other people for whom we "care" so much, neoconservatism demands that we simultaneously see them as subordinate to our wishes. We are happy to meet them, subject to our economic and military boot – or else we are happy to meet them in a hell of our own creation.

Neoconservatism – indeed American foreign policy – is unscathed and unthreatened by Democratic success in recent elections. We might have known that any foreign policy that celebrates our natural reluctance to deal with the mote in our own eye before we obsess about the speck in our neighbor’s eye would be secure in populism.

Our sordid tendencies toward rage and bloodlust are fed and nurtured by neoconservative prescriptions in foreign policy. Knowing this, I was still shocked to see Joshua Muravchik’s November 19th opinion piece in the Los Angeles Times.

I was surprised that an essay of such ignorance, such hatred, and such embarrassing lack of credibility was published at all in a major newspaper. I was surprised that Joshua Muravchik has an audience; that he apparently does is frightening.

I get a lot of email from people who seem to enthusiastically hate other people for their ethnicities, their religions and even their politics. They often prescribe solutions for their problems that are entirely about changing or punishing those they hate. Their energies are often spent justifying their hatred and dreaming of ways to get governmental institutions to "enforce" their proud contempt.

My reaction to these emails is to delete them. After all, this type of thinking and acting is wrong, unethical, un-Christian, and evil.

So when I read Joshua explain why we must bomb Iran as soon as possible, I was surprised that the LA Times hadn’t also hit the delete button.

Sure, Muravchik hails from the American Enterprise Institute and we do expect this type of stupidity from the folks who insisted the same thing five years ago regarding Iraq. Yes, the AEI still informs key players in the White House and in Congress. And we do understand the real role of Washington think tanks these days.

But in "Bomb Iran," one wonders what it is really all about. The official neoconservative view, as produced by the AEI and AIPAC too, is that Iran must not be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. That they do not have one is irrelevant. They must never ever have a nuclear weapon – under no imaginable government, under no imaginable regional or global arrangement. Islamic countries and bombs are a bad mix, according to neoconservatives.

Please forget that the nice Pakistanis have the bomb, and please forget that we have been told Pakistan nearly succeeded in giving it to the Libyans, just before the Libyans turned into nice people, too.

In "Bomb Iran," Joshua says that we cannot deter Iran’s use of a nuclear weapon – once they have one – by telling Iran that if anything in the whole wide world happens, we will nuke Iran.

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» RE: Karen Kwiatkowski Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: Karen Kwiatkowski Posted by: rwa
» RE: Karen Kwiatkowski Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Karen Kwiatkowski Posted by: slimer
» RE: Karen Kwiatkowski Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
Karen Kwiatkowsky-2
Posted by: rwa on Nov 28, 2006 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This, by the way, is Dick Cheney’s foreign policy – we will assume Iran is behind anything bad that happens, and first use of the great American nuclear arsenal against Iran is our present security doctrine.

Joshua worries that if Iran gets a nuclear weapon, "[c]oming on top of North Korea's nuclear test, ... would spell finis to the entire nonproliferation system." Apparently, AEI’s ivory tower is an actual tower made of ivory. A tower with no windows, no internet, no television, no radio, no intelligent life. It was clear to me and a few billion other people back in the 1970s that finis for non-proliferation had already been spelt.

Joshua worries that Iran is an archenemy of the United States and Israel, and he worries that it is led by a messianic leader, and that Tehran seeks regional dominance. If only we could get at that damn mote in our own eye. But alas, we aren’t even looking.

Thus, Joshua – Alfred Prufrock style – recalls Churchill and World War I, and the Cold War, choices not made, actions not taken, the painful anonymity of timidly sitting on ones’ hands. He says if we do not bomb, we will not "forestall" Iran’s regional dominance and its global war, and Ahmadinejad the next Lenin. If we do bomb, Joshua says… well, it would be better. Trust him.

What, indeed, is it really all about?

First, it is about guys like Joshua Muravchik doing their workaday job. Advocating positive solutions to real American security challenges does not earn them a paycheck. Instead, feeding the ongoing Washington and Tel Aviv obsession with whether Israel or Iran will be the regional military and economic hegemon does. Hence, Joshua is just doing his job.

Secondly, it is about the Washington establishmentarian desire to lay the psychological-linguistic groundwork for what is going to happen soon – and for those with connections in this White House, to come out on the "right" side early and often. "Bomb Iran" becomes legitimate to say, and thus to think and do, even as the Muravchik arguments, and those of a hundred others in key media outlets, remain illegitimate, illogical, and empty.

And lastly, it is practically important, as several American carrier battle groups in the Persian Gulf patiently await the 2006 rendition of a Tonkin incident, as the Air Force and Navy polishes those target lists, as the Army and Marines send more troops into the region. We hear that more troops are going to Iraq because of its complete political and security breakdown, but the Pentagon knows our troops cannot save Iraq, and if they enter into the fray, they will be killed. Instead, it seems more likely that these troops will stay on the major U.S. bases in central and southern Iraq, and elsewhere in the region, until needed for the next big thing. The news that more American troops may be required in Afghanistan also fits nicely with what must be done. As Cheney visited our men in Saudi Arabia this past weekend, and as the Secretary of State sees our man in Jordan, it’s all on track.

Telling us this is the only reason the LA Times would publish the type of racist, evil, Armageddonite hogwash as found in "Bomb Iran!"

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» Tail is wagging the dog Posted by: jreinhart1
» Thought-provoking commentary Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Thought-provoking commentary Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: Thought-provoking commentary Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Thought-provoking commentary Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Thought-provoking commentary Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Thought-provoking commentary Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
A totally different and far more accurate perspective on Iraq.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Nov 28, 2006 10:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Contracting “Clean Break” Chaos in Iraq
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=675

El Salvador-style 'death squads' to be deployed by US against Iraq militants
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article
/0,,11069-1433353,00.html

That does not include the black operations that have been documented by Iraqi sources as the prime mover of death squads, IEDs and car bombings. Many of the human bombs are drugged up and pushed out the door and blown up remotely. It's to bad the MSM doesn't show the death in living color and the pictures of families that have been wiped out with the latest toys from the DoD.

The anti-war activists are the ones that the FBI, CIA, DIA and others are watching and documenting. This is totally backward. WAKE UP DAMMIT!

Americans are being fed a load of garbage 24/7 on all channels, newspapers and most websites.

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A half-decent attempt
Posted by: Boomerang on Nov 28, 2006 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Middle East specialist, this is an okay attempt to explain some of the thinking behind the current discourse on Iraq. There are a lot of problems with it though, too many to go into in depth here. Correcting some of the distortions would require an entire article unto itself.

I am glad, however, that the article mentions the "go big" strategy in the correct frame: 20-30,000 troops won't make a bit of difference in the security situation, it would take another 200-300,000, the number we should have had in the first place. The violence spun out of control because we let it.

That the article calls the "mismanagement argument" a fallacy is also extremely misleading, since the Iraq war could have been prosecuted in an extremely effective manner and created a stable state. It's difficult to argue that Rumsfeld's "stripped down" military wasn't the origin of so much of the security chaos. We were guarding the oil ministry when we should have been guarding EVERY ministry. The way to prevent an insurgency from forming would have been to crush it before it got started, which would have meant immediately stabilizing the country and not dismissing 500,000 Iraqi soldiers.

The war was a bad idea from the start, but a bad idea could have produced good results if it had been carried through effectively. Instead, we got the wishy-washy, noncommital, head-in-the-clouds optimism of the Bush administration that stubbornly refused to notice anything was wrong until almost 4 years down the line. Now Iraq is out of control, and the only sensible thing is cut our losses, pull out, and watch the temple collapse in on itself. We knocked out the foundation and then replaced it with sand. It's no big surprise that it fell apart.

Despite its shoddy rationale, the Iraq War could have produced a good outcome. Imagine, if you will, that we still invaded Iraq, but did so with 500,000 troops. Imagine that the Provisional Authority had been staffed with competent realists instead of incompetent neo-con cronies. Imagine we hadn't dismissed 500,000 soldiers to eventually end up becoming insurgents and death squad leaders. Imagine if we'd actually adapted our strategy to the situation instead of plunging ahead with a non-starter. Imagine a litany of mistakes hadn't been made. Iraq could have been successfull; instead, it's a disaster, and it's our fault.

If I thought there was a way to "fix" Iraq and still produce a positive result, I'd support it wholeheartedly, but I honestly don't think there is a way to resolve the situation in a positive manner. It's time to cut our losses, admit we made a massive, mammoth, unconscionable mistake, and accept that we started a war and lost. The balance of power is going to shift away from us now, and it's the Bush administration that did it to us.

Bastards.

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» Proudly "anti-american" Posted by: SteveB
» RE: Proudly "anti-american" Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: A half-decent attempt Posted by: HeroesAll
Lead From The Front
Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 28, 2006 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms Pelosi should inform BushCo that he gan go big in Iraq if, and only if, he leads from the front.

Bush gets to be a squad leader, Cheney and Rummy (he's still on the job) get to be the team leaders.

Team 1
'Holy Joe' Leiberman
Paul Wolfowitz
Rush Limbaugh
Bill-O
Ann Coulter

Team 2
Bill Frist
Dennis Hastert
Duncan Hunter
John Warner
Sean Hannity

They can show us how it's done, being experts at this and all. If they won't go the answer is HELL NO.

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» RE: Lead From The Front Posted by: ng1944
» RE: Lead From The Front Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: Lead From The Front Posted by: zipper696
ALTERNET: you have more trolls than people on this site!
Posted by: LMNOP on Nov 28, 2006 11:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I want to argue with conservative simps, I'll go to Free Republic. It's become impossible to hold an intelligent discussion on this site anymore. Alternet needs to clean house.

How come there are no Glen Beck ads today?

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» LOL, good point Posted by: jdylarid
» RE: LOL, good point Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» false advertising Posted by: mountainsrock
» RE: false advertising Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» i am waiting...... Posted by: mountainsrock
» RE: People: do not feed the trolls. Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» YOU STAND WITH FASCISTS. Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: YOU STAND WITH FASCISTS. Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
WARNING, MIT's Center for International Studies, Hopkins SIAS, & Chicago U.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Nov 28, 2006 12:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These centers of international studies are something in themselves, to be researched. The make-up and professors of these organizations and others like them have CREATED the middle eastern problems that we have today. The Johns Hopkins University PaulH.Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Chicago's Leo Strauss Center for International Studies and MIT's Center for International Studies are heavily militaristic and subversive. These are the groups that create NGOs to wipe out entire countries out of their wealth and resources.

These universities work with the following institutes and think tanks for war:

Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies (IASPS) Jerusalem think tank! (Team B, CPD, runs damn near everything Media, Politics, Military, Strategy... rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1493
Committee for Accurate Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA)
The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP)
School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS)
Young People's Socialist League (YPSL)
US Institute of Peace (USIP) should be called hate organization against peace organizations
Institure on Religion and Democracy (IRD) runs policy on giving for UN (pretend christian assn run by Zionists)
Institute on Religion and Public Life (IRPL) known as First Things - nutbag hate group "America Only" fascists
Freedom House
International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS)
National Intelligence Estimate (NIE)
Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)
Center for Democracy (CD)
Center for Security Policy (CSP)
Committee on the Present Danger (CPD) - Packard founded militant group using force against Iraq, Yugoslavia, Gulf States to secure oil (USAID subgroup)...
ADL (Anti Defamation League)
JINSA
American Jewish Committee (AJC)
U.S. Committee for a Free Lebanon (USCFL)
Committee for the Free World (CFW)
Committee for the Liberation of Iraq (CLI)
American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC)
U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (USCNK)
CIA Fascism (Team B)
Ethics and Public Policy Center (EPPC)
Committee for the Free World (CFW)
American Enterprise Institute (AEI)
Project for a New American Century (PNAC)
National Institute of Public Policy (NIPP)
National Security Council (NSC)
Department of Defense (DoD)
Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)
Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD)
Center for Security Policy (CSP)
National Endowment for Democracy (NED)
Middle East Forum (MEF)

There are very few people in these elite schools that are anywhere near a methodology for peace in any way, shape or form. There is no systems think but a centralized system for power and control. Most of the deviant ideas from the neocons came from these schools of thought, international affairs and "law". It is just as ugly at Yale, Harvard, Brown, Wharton, Carnegie Mellon and others.

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If I were Dick Cheney what would I do...
Posted by: greasychicken on Nov 28, 2006 1:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, I got an idea! By some estimates, half a million casualties have resulted from the invasion/sectarian violence in Iraq. The population of Iraq, according to a 2005 UN study, is 26.5 million. So if we look at the last three years, we've either killed or indirectly abetted the killings of roughly 4% of the total population. Not too shabby, but with a little help to our friends in the Shia and Sunni militias (let's not forget our good buddies, the Kurdish Peshmerga, while we're at it) , we should be able to throw a little gas on the flames of ethnic conflict and exponentially increase our kill count!

Now I know what you're thinking: what does this have to do with restoring order and civil democracy to Iraq? Well, who's gonna be able to blow up oil pipelines and tanker trucks when they're all dead? Let them stop wasting their time with IED's; let's give them some real heavy ordinance so they can blast each other into tabouli and stop screwing with profi--er, progress. They won't need Uncle Al Qaeda when they got Uncle Sam to bring them new toys.

Look at the figures: we've accomplished between 400k to 700k civilian causalties with a loss of less than 3,000 coaltion troops. Whether Charles Rangel's plan to provide more bomb fodder with a draft works or not really won't matter. In fact, the less troops there, the better. They'll only get in the way of clearing the field. Hell, if we could just leave enough RPG's, tanks, and mortars "unattended", we could convert Baghdad into one big honkin' refinery in five years time, and turn the surrounding country into one big golf course.

I suppose some of you might have some other propositions on how to deal with this mess. Some of you might get it in your heads to get rid of the foreign contractors, not the troops, and let the Iraqis rebuild the infrastructure. That way--goes this argument--Iraqis will have a vested stake in repairing their own country, such measures would alleviate much of the crippling poverty and widespread unemployment over there, and it would cost taxpayers a hell of a lot less in the long run. Not that I've ever actually heard anyone propose this, but that's just what I'd expect one of you bleeding-heart libbo-pinkos to say.

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Time to recognize the Iraq Answer
Posted by: veive on Nov 28, 2006 1:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Given today's Iraq, as compared to the Iraq that existed immediately before the onset of Operation Iraqi Freedom (doncha just luv these war-fighting labels), it is obvious that Saddam Hussein is deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize. Being able to hold that country together was truly a remarkable feat and it deserves recognition. Hopefully, Saddam will not be awarded posthumously. Justice demands that he personally receive the award.

I must admit to an ulterior motive. If we could get George W. Bush to kiss his ass, I'm sure that Saddam would be persuaded to resume control of his country. Methinks that's the only way things will get settled down in that neck of the woods. With Saddam comes relative harmony in Iraq and relatively peaceful co-existence in the Middle East region. This could work and it may be our only way out.

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A Stronger Iran will Check Israeli Ambitions
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 28, 2006 3:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iran has been responding with it's own rhetoric to the escalating Israeli rhetroic which has called for bombing of Iran's defensive nuclear facilities, no doubt with US supplied missles and bombs. Iraq was to be the positioning point of US forces, under US and Israeli control, with a direct threat to Iran. This does not look like it is any longer in the cards, and bingo, the USA is handing Iran a great victory. The new Iran, with a good chunk of Iraq to be a part of it (Saudi Arabia and the Kurds get the rest!). Thank you, GW Bush! You are Iran and the Mullah's biggest friends! But, look at the good side, Israeli bristles with nuclear weapons, US supplied fighters and bombs, and who will check them. Lebanon was just the beginning, more land for expansion is needed by the Zionist loonies. The USA, under the control of AIPAC, the neocons, and tons of campaign cash will never stop Israel nor it's arbitrary detention and torture of thousands of Palestinians. It will take the new, resurrgent, and ultimately nuclear, Iran. Which GW Bush had a good part in ensuring it will be coming to be!

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al qaeda is conclusively behind attacks in iraq. CHECK OUT THESE AL QAEDA PRESS RELEASES!
Posted by: give_peace_a_chance on Nov 28, 2006 3:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for those brainwashed leftists who are in denial that the violence in iraq is local insurgencies, note the following link to al qaeda in iraq press releases:

http://press-release.blogspot.com/

i challenge any anti-American leftist to proof otherwise that the war in iraq is not a major strategic front in the war on islamic terror.

eh, forget it, you clowns are too far gone to believe logic, empricism, and conclusive proof.

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» PRESS RELEASES! Posted by: zipper696
» RE: PRESS RELEASES! Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: PRESS RELEASES! and leftist hypocrisy! Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: gpac is either evil or insane Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» CHECKMATE?!?! How smug. Posted by: BenjamminH
10 FALLICIES ABOUT THE VIOLENCE IN IRAQ *links viewed by deleting spaces between characters
Posted by: give_peace_a_chance on Nov 28, 2006 4:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) al qaeda is not a major factor in the violence in iraq.

http://press-release.blogspot.com/

2) islamic terrorists did not welcome the democrat victory in november.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52747


3) peace will result if the democrat surrender-monkeys force a US retreat from iraq.

no, hundreds of thousands of sunnis will die. the democrats/liberals were complicit in the death of millions of cambodians after the vietnam war. they will be complicit in the deaths of innocent iraqis when/if they force US withdrawal.

4) iran is not providing support and munitions to kill US troops and iraqi civilians.


abcnews.go.com /International/IraqCoverage /story?id=1692347&page=1


5) iran does not export weapons designed solely to terrorize and kill innocent civilians throughout the middle east


6) a US withdrawal will not emboldened terrorists worldwide


www.singapore-window.org/sw04/040506af.htm


7) there is no intelligence or proof that saddam had ties to al qaeda


www.weeklystandard.com /Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp?pg=1


8) democrat leaders did not believe that the saddam was a dangerous threat to US security


www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm


9) democrat surrender-monkeys have a plan for iraq.


unless you consider surrender a plan, i havent heard anything from these clowns to suggest otherwise.


10) islamic extremist victory in iraq will not lead to more violence worldwide.


www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence
Posted by: give_peace_a_chance on Nov 28, 2006 5:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ordinary iraqi "civilians" are manufacturing sophisticated IED's to blowup American troops and innocent civilians!!!

abcnews.go.com /International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347&page=1

*remove spaces after .com to view link

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» RE: fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: fallacy number 147 about iraqi violence Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
GW Bush invited Al Qaeda in, you Right Wing Ninnies!
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 28, 2006 6:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, right wingers, Yes, Al Qaeda could be big in Iraq right now, but that is not the point. Who made them big in Iraq, it was yours truly, GW Bush. He invaded the place to begin with, and point of fact, Saddam wanted nothing to do with Al Qaeda, even GW Bush now admits that. And, then also, GW Bush became the poster boy for Al Qaeda recruiting into Iraq. With Abu Ghriab, Guantanamo, support for Israel, just how do you think this was and is being read in the Arab world? So, now next, if Al Qaeda is big in Iraq now, what are you going to do about it? Continue to fight an unwinnable war? Now, besides Al Qaeda, you have countries like Iran and Syria, which have an interest in controlling the radicals for their own stability. But, only after America leaves. We leave, and they then have to shake it out and figure how to divvy up the spoils. We also remove, with American absence, a big part of Al Qaeda's continued grievances and rationale for fighting the USA. If the USA were really smart, it would also gut it's support for the Israeli's, and their continued criminal actions against the Palestinians. But, we can only hope for so much. So, GW Bush keeps fighting the unwinnable war, and Al Qaeda will just keep getting stronger. I think GW Bush has America's interests at heart, in his own mind, but he apparently is just so incredibly dense or stupid to do the things he did. He created an American nightmare invading Iraq unnecessarily and perpetuates it now for no good reason.

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Point #1: WRONG
Posted by: timebomb734 on Nov 28, 2006 9:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. The U.S. is a buffer against more violence. This is perhaps the most resilient conjecture that has no basis in fact.

Iraqis themselves do not believe it. In a State Department poll published in September, huge majorities say the U.S. is directly responsible for the violence. The upsurge of bloodshed in Baghdad seems to confirm the Iraqis' view, at least by inference. The much-publicized U.S. effort to bring troops to Baghdad to quell sectarian killing has accompanied a period of increased mortality in the city.


While our presence may be creating more violence in the Iraqi domestic sphere, it is foolish to think that our withdrawal would result in more peace for the region at large. This is exactly what happened in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal, which resulted not only in a power vacuum, but also a withdrawal of cold war funding from the us to fight the soviets. Power abhors a vacuum, and all the warlords and ethnic groups fought amongst one another until 1996 when the Taliban essentially took over Kabul. Do we want Iraq to turn into a staging ground for regional or global violence? Of course we don't. We have to learn from the historical mistakes of others, and hopefully our own. Even thought the original invasion was a gargantuan mistake, we need to realize that an immediate withdrawal would leave Iraqis vulnerable to nearly anyone. If you think the violence is bad now, try absolute anarchy.

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» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: latteslave
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: give_peace_a_chance
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: veive
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: veive
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: veive
» To American Dreamland boy-gpac Posted by: Belfast&Annie
» RE: To American Dreamland boy-gpac Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: timebomb734
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: Point #1: WRONG Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
kay brown
Posted by: kay brown on Nov 29, 2006 9:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WAIT A MINUTE! I don't believe it is possible to have the names and addresses of the plane hijackers within a few hours (2001) just as I don't believe it is possible to conclude that the Iraqis multi-ethnic population is fighting among themselves (also called a civil war). I think the Iraqis are fighting against the American invaders and the American invaders are saying the multi-ethnic population is fighting among themselves. It's the old game of "let's you and him fight" - The US intelligence is NOT. Where do we turn for information? Iraqis certainly should be our best info source - considering who it is who asks the questions - my God, we can't be this stupid, can we?

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Excellent
Posted by: opeluboy on Nov 29, 2006 4:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Simply one of the best pieces I've read on Iraq in some time. Important facts concisely stated, no filler. Only the willfully ignorant or those with an agenda that involes endless Mid East war can fault this piece.

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» RE: xcellent Posted by: rwa
» RE: xcellent Posted by: opeluboy
Give Peace a Chance?
Posted by: Belfast&Annie on Nov 29, 2006 9:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems like all this person can do is advocate more war. His knowledge on WWII, the Bomb and Japan is like verbatim of the American myth. Japan was ready to surrender many months before Hiroshima and Nagasaki were obliberated.

I challenge you to research this but you probaly won't. You child.

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» RE: Give Peace a Chance? Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Give Peace a Chance? Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: Give Peace a Chance? Posted by: Conservasaurus
Uw online verzekeringsmakelaar
Posted by: europa on Nov 30, 2006 3:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eerst Europa Doelstellingen: De Ci2i Verzekering
(Ci2i) zal het nummer een gebrandmerkte pan Europese commoditized online verzekeringsmakelaar door 2010 zijn.

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Confessions of a former FReeper
Posted by: slimer on Nov 30, 2006 1:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hi, I'm new here. I came over after a long and arduous time in the desert of neoconservatism called Free Republic. It was once a place of greenery where opposing thoughts and opinions got a measure of respect among members; alas, after the Republican debacle on Nov. 7, it has become a wasteland where rabid foaming-mouth neocons seek a scorched-earth policy of inquisition and expulsion of anyone harboring an admiration of Reaganism but holding libertarian social values.
I see this happening in a lot of other hard-right cyber places, too, that had previously allowed debate and thought. As well, there seems to be a general GOP meltdown after the explosion of last month which resulted in loss of both houses of Congress and the end of Reaganism--something that it took more than a half-century to accomplish!
For examples: Just look at Newt now calling for the end of free speech, and Rush and Sean--both of whom have turned radio into screaching screamfests about how Democrats are going to doom us all.
In my humble opinion, they just don't get it! Society has changed. Americans do not believe it was wrong to pull the plug on poor Teri Shavio because modern medicine truthfully told us her brain was dead. Americans are open to the option of using zygotes that were manufactured in test tubes for research when those same embryonic stem cells will be eventually tossed anyway. Americans don't really see any victory in a silly war on drugs that has produced rampid crime against persons and property and many more addicts. Americans really care about our troops, too, only they do not want to see them in harm's way with both hands, a foot, and four toes tied behind their back. Americans, IMHO, want Democrats out of their wallets; Republicans out of their bedrooms and both of them out of our Constitution.
Basically that means you go your way and I'll go mine and as long as it doesn't result in someone's physical or financial harm, it's okay by mean. That means I could care less about who is sleeping with whom and whether or not he or she is the same or opposite sex.
There is a lot of anger in this country now. And, of course, we all know who is the lightening rod for it: George "DUH-PEE-YEW" Bush. And, if Clinton was bad (which I believe he was) Bush is little better.
I long for a leader who can make us all feel good about ourselves...I saw that kind of leader in a couple of presidents in my lifetime--John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan. Johnson and Nixon were pretty much Clinton/DUH-PEE-YEW clones; Ford was a stand in (and a stand-up guy), Carter was a flop, and "Read My Lips" basically lost me with that phrase.
I do not understand why we cannot have better in the coming future...perhaps you can give me some opinion about who could be?

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» RE: Confessions of a former FReeper Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
right left - propaganda
Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com on Dec 1, 2006 12:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To those of you who are on here parroting the likes of CNN and other so called news sources.

Have a look at these info sources and links below

On Scott Ritter and the interview link I have posted on here a few times. I ask you: why is Scott Ritter lying about Iran now, and why was he correct about Iraq, when he spoke out against the mainstream news medias like CNN's version of Iraq.
Did you yourself support the reason for invading Iraq, if you did; you where wrong, much like you are now about Iran.

Scott Ritter on "Target Iran: The Truth About the White House’s Plans for Regime Change”

another good read on Iran

Links regarding Iran
and Text from the speech that the mainstream media started the lie about Iran re: wipe Israel off the face of the map
first one and most thorough
linked text
linked text

This link below is on world history
Robert Newman is hilarious, he’ll make you laugh, and make you think. If you follow up on what he says, you’ll also find it’s true.

A must see film, he is so funny, and thought provoking.
Robert Newman – Robert Newman's History of Oil


The comedian and author gets to grips with the wars and politics of the last hundred years - but rather than adhering to the history we were fed at school, he places oil centre stage as the cause of all the commotion. Excellent and factual, Newman tells it how it is

About the fifteenth film down on the list

robert Newman the History of Oil


To those of you who believe Iraq will get more violent if the States leaves, consider this;
If America leaves Iraq with all its military tools; missiles, helicopters, fighter jets, tanks, white phosphorous weapons, depleted uranium shells, and the volume of heavily armed soldiers. How will things get more violent in Iraq, who else has the kind, and that volume of weapons that America is using there?

Whole cities have been almost completely leveled with the firepower coming from the air, like Falluja, who is going to level a city like that, who has the power to do that. The Iraqis resisting the occupiers with their RPG's and home made bombs, are they going to do this, and how the hell will they do that?


Instead of refuting my points, actually consider them for a moment; where are those kind and that volume of weapons going to come from, to maintain that level of violence.

If your parroting mainstream medias proven lies, you should really think about that.

Do some home work on bringing democracy to the Middle East in 1953, with the Shah of Iran. Now that's fucked up, brought to the Iranian people by the good old USA and Britain again, they even over threw a democratically elected leader to do it. How about Pinochet, same deal.

I am not anti American I just want to talk about the truth of the world situation. I believe the struggles, and the wars we see are all about money and nothing else. It is a class war, between the ultra rich and the rest of us, if we could come to terms with that, maybe we'd then all talk about how to change it.

The Rich are getting way Richer, when shall we the masses come together to stop it ?

peace to all

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» RE: right left - propaganda Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: right left - propaganda Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com
» RE: right left - propaganda Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: right left - propaganda Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: right left - propaganda Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
The "Give Peace A Chance" problem
Posted by: Shey on Dec 1, 2006 5:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right wing nut case organizations like Give Peace A Chance pose a dilemma on the internet, where freedom of expression is making it's last stand. I'm surprised to see how many people are getting sucked into the waste of time that is so-called debate with the hopelessly brainwashed ones. It seems clear to me that the only solution to this verbal pollution on a progressive site dedicated to sane, reasonable discussion is to ignore these idiots. Eventually, they will go away.

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» RE: The "Give Peace A Chance" problem Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: The "Give Peace A Chance" problem Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
» RE: The "Give Peace A Chance" problem Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah
People make the U.S. occupation and destruction of IRAQ to complex
Posted by: jolo on Dec 2, 2006 11:10 PM   
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The pre-emptive bombing and occupation of Iraq is really for simple reasons. People get so caught up in nonsense and discussing issue and political debating which has virtually nothing with the violent takeover of Iraq. Here are the simple points.

* Bush got budget approval for the Iraq bombing and Occupation by lying to Congress and the American people. Don't ever forget that Bush got the budget money because he said that the pre-emptive strike was a National Defense Issue and that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that put our nation in danger of attack.
* Remember that Bush offered up as proof, a fraudulent memo about Iraq buying Uranium from Africa so they can get us with Atomic Weapons
*The Administration told us that the bombing of Iraq had virtually nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism. That is was about National Defense. So we had to bomb them before they bomb us.
*There is no reason to wonder anyware but on the WMD issue as far as any debate about Iraq. That was the reason and you can find quotes from Powell, Bush and Cheney all stating that this had nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism.
*BUT, the "REAL" reason for the attack has nothing to do with politics, Islam, political philsophies, Democracy. Liberal or Conservative thinking, National Defense or otherwise., etc.
*The massive bombing and occupation of Iraq, which has not lasted longer than the U.S. war against Nazi Germany was about Money and Corporate resources alone
*Whenever anyone wants to know CIA and military intervention, [just follow the money. Think ! Who benefits and gets rich of the military action. The motivations are NOT about National Defense or any philosophical beliefs at all. *Check out how the massive, unprovoked bombs made sure that they never touched and of the Oil Wells in Iraq. This is something Al Qada wanted as well. It is about wealth, power and control.
*What Corporate entities profited and are profiting by the Occupation and did those Corporate interests give Bush and the Chicken hawks the largest amount of political support, via contributions, use of resources and money from lobbyists.
*Big oil has done pretty well financially haven't they ? How about Defense Contractors. While our military men were short of supplies, like ammunition, food, vests, tanks, etc, defense Contractors like Halliburton, Blackwater (missionaries), etc used our tax money like their own checking account.
*Cheney has done pretty well for himself financially, since he is still on Halliburton's payroll, one of their major stockholders and has Halliburton purchase an Insurance policy for him in case of a "Enron" like investigation and destruction of Halliburton. yes, he is still receiving checks and has loads of stock and yes Halliburton bought an insurance policy for Cheney to protect him financially against litigation against Cheney for illegal actions with Halliburton.


Make sure you see Iraq For Sale, which documents many of the specifics.
See Iraq For Sale.

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Please spellcheck your article manually
Posted by: pfinerty on Dec 4, 2006 6:09 PM   
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so as not to misspell proper names, then delete this totally inappropriate comment. Hint: YOU ARE MISSING AN 'M' IN KRAUTHAMMER.

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jak and his propaganda
Posted by: shawn@shawnsandersphotography.com on Dec 4, 2006 10:48 PM   
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Jak


You never replied to me on what is that I am referring to when I say 'you are indoctrinated with propaganda'. What is the propaganda I claim you are indoctrinated into?

It's government propaganda Jak !



Just like the Hitler supporters I mentioned in an earlier post, the ones that stayed supporting Hitler right to the end, they would be 'indoctrinated into government propaganda', exactly the way you are. Only difference is; you are indoctrinated into American Government propaganda.


GET THIS - The sources you sent me to back up your ideas are:
- quotes from government leaders to back up your facts and ideas (the same people who lied about Iraq)
I know you don’t get it, but that’s why its called “Government Propaganda.”

- Secondly you send me a link to an American NGO ‘Human Rights Watch’, which I am also aware ‘you have no idea is just more government propaganda’, designed to keep the masses fooled into allowing their government to continually wage wars of aggression to appease their owners, the corporate masters.
- And of course the link to CNN or any other mainstream propaganda machines, we seen it on Iraq already. Tried tested and true, they lied

So I thank you for doing your homework and sending me your sources of information. Problem being: they are the exact same sources of information and groups of people that sold you the lies about why to invade Iraq, which you bought ‘hook line and sinker’ sucker. Now you stand behind them and their lies again on Iran, double sucker you will be. It’s your choice, go ahead believe the lies again, but not me.

Your Great logic Jak, is actually ‘no logic at all’. Blindly following the same people, and the same sources of news and facts that lied to you about Iraq.







On Iran 1953
The Democratically elected leader of Iran; Mohammed Mossadegh was making plans to take more control over the oil industry. He was going to take more money from the oil industry profits for the people (the masses) of Iran. This angered the ‘Anglo-Iranian Oil Company’, (now record profit posting BP British Petroleum) thus the States and Britain sponsored a coup, installed the Shah of Iran, who started the Savak Secret Police. If you want to talk about brutally suppressive governments and death squads, the American and British sponsored Shah and Savak secret police are some of the best, which means worst.

Hitler had his supporters right to the end, and so will the American Government, this is where people like Jak come in.

Jak the problem with simply just insisting you have never been fooled, and that you are right, is you will always remain fooled, and wrong.

Peace Jak

S

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» RE: jak and his propaganda Posted by: Jak_dah_rippah