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Quitting Iraq Is the Only Brave Thing to Do

By Michael Moore, MichaelMoore.com. Posted November 27, 2006.


We should demand to the Democrats that we get out of Iraq now and ask the Iraqi people for their forgiveness.
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November 27 marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

And we haven't even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it took us to took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe, we cannot, after over 3 and 1/2 years, even take over a single highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into Baghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And that doesn't even include a friggin' helmet.

Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That's because no amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel of a gun is ever going to "win" the war in Iraq. It is a lost war, lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others sent to fight and die.

Let's listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:

** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. out of Iraq.

** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. troops.

Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing there? Talk about not getting the hint.

There are many ways to liberate a country. Usually the residents of that country rise up and liberate themselves. That's how we did it. You can also do it through nonviolent, mass civil disobedience. That's how India did it. You can get the world to boycott a regime until they are so ostracized they capitulate. That's how South Africa did it. Or you can just wait them out and, sooner or later, the king's legions simply leave (sometimes just because they're too cold). That's how Canada did it.

The one way that DOESN'T work is to invade a country and tell the people, "We are here to liberate you!" -- when they have done NOTHING to liberate themselves. Where were all the suicide bombers when Saddam was oppressing them? Where were the insurgents planting bombs along the roadside as the evildoer Saddam's convoy passed them by? I guess ol' Saddam was a cruel despot -- but not cruel enough for thousands to risk their necks. "Oh no, Mike, they couldn't do that! Saddam would have had them killed!" Really? You don't think King George had any of the colonial insurgents killed? You don't think Patrick Henry or Tom Paine were afraid? That didn't stop them. When tens of thousands aren't willing to shed their own blood to remove a dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren't going to be willing participants when you decide you're going to do the liberating for them.

A country can HELP another people overthrow a tyrant (that's what the French did for us in our revolution), but after you help them, you leave. Immediately. The French didn't stay and tell us how to set up our government. They didn't say, "we're not leaving because we want your natural resources." They left us to our own devices and it took us six years before we had an election. And then we had a bloody civil war. That's what happens, and history is full of these examples. The French didn't say, "Oh, we better stay in America, otherwise they're going to kill each other over that slavery issue!"

The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them -- and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Gandhis and Mandellas leading them. Where are these beacons of liberty in Iraq? This is a joke and it's been a joke since the beginning. Yes, the joke's been on us, but with 655,000 Iraqis now dead as a result of our invasion (source: Johns Hopkins University), I guess the cruel joke is on them. At least they've been liberated, permanently.

So I don't want to hear another word about sending more troops (wake up, America, John McCain is bonkers), or "redeploying" them, or waiting four months to begin the "phase-out." There is only one solution and it is this: Leave. Now. Start tonight. Get out of there as fast as we can. As much as people of good heart and conscience don't want to believe this, as much as it kills us to accept defeat, there is nothing we can do to undo the damage we have done. What's happened has happened. If you were to drive drunk down the road and you killed a child, there would be nothing you could do to bring that child back to life. If you invade and destroy a country, plunging it into a civil war, there isn't much you can do 'til the smoke settles and blood is mopped up. Then maybe you can atone for the atrocity you have committed and help the living come back to a better life.


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Michael Moore is an Academy award-winning filmmaker and author of "Dude, Where's My Country?"

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it's not a movie michael
Posted by: edith on Nov 27, 2006 12:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i don't have a substantive problem with what Moore proposes: out now and apologize. but we've set up a regime, there were elections, and now there is a full scale civil war with the Kurds and Shia at least rightfully looking to the US for military as well as economic aid(which Moore correctly would offer the entire nation). The situatiion is a mess. Everyone in Congress is afraid of the chaos that will accompany an American unilateral withdrawal. Will the violence be even greater than now?

The following paragraph from Moore seemed apt:
"The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan in 36 weeks. They did so and suffered hardly any losses as they left. They realized the mistake they had made and removed their troops. A civil war ensued. The bad guys won. Later, we overthrew the bad guys and everybody lived happily ever after. See! It all works out in the end! "

The Soviet Union collapsed in part shortly after that withdrawal. The MIC and the corporate elite are hardly about to sign a self-death warrant.

I will communicate with my congresspeople with an out now statement. Moore's logic is right, although I'd word it differently. I am represented by a very liberal congressman who opposed the war from day one. Yet I doubt he will go against Pelosi. So I guess I have to contact her too. It will be interesting to see what she thinks about Moore's proposal?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: it's not a movie michael Posted by: Monitor523
» RE: it's not a movie michael Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: it's not a movie michael Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: it's not a movie michael..sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
» RE: it's not a movie michael Posted by: John Annis
» RE: it's not a movie michael Posted by: jmooney
» Moore can't even make .... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Shame on Conversaurus Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Shame on Conversaurus Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: Shame on Conversaurus Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Shame on Conversaurus Posted by: Conservasaurus
» I'm (mostly) with Conversaurus Posted by: timebomb734
» Thank you Michael Moore! Posted by: sheena2u
» RE: Thank you Michael Moore! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Moore can't even make .... Posted by: willymack
» RE: Moore can't even make .... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: it's not a movie michael Posted by: Neilium
» Everyone get your Brooms! Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: veryone get your Brooms! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Dear fascist warmonger, Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Dear fascist warmonger, Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Out of Which Iraq? Posted by: Mr. Heathen
What Will History Say?
Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 27, 2006 1:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IT's hard to believe this but only a little over half a century ago, Joe McCarthy was not only taken seriously, he was beloved by many Americans! Today we look at grainy news reel footage of the senator from Wisconsin and we cringe in disgust.

Does the First Fool even have a clue as to jaw droppingly stupid he looks when, only three and a half years after the fact, we look back at photos and videotape of him prancing around on the deck of that aircraft carrier, wearing that comically grotesque GI Joe flight suit, with that disgusting smirk on his face and that ridiculous banner waving overhead?

Mission accomplished, indeed.

It is not only time to get out of Iraq but, now that the Democrats have control of the situattion, it's time to hold hearings as to how we got there and what was stolen by whom in the process. Billions of dollars are unaccounted for in what will eventually turn out to be a trillion dollar rip off of the American taxpayer. Almost three thousand American men and women are dead. Oh! and did I mention the nasty little subject of the genocide of over half a million Iraqi men, women and little children?

People need to be held accountable and sent to prison for the rest of their lives. The future of the republic depends soley on the actions of the 110th Congress. Pray they don't blow it. And while you're at it....

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» Hello, Aim! Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Specifics Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Specifics Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: What Will History Say? Posted by: raisolav
» RE: FIRST FOOL Posted by: mountainsrock
Well, yes
Posted by: Monitor523 on Nov 27, 2006 1:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MM sounds pretty much like the caricatures of him painted by the hawkish sectors of the media.

Which is not to say he's, you know, incorrect. Oh no.

But of course we're here at the moment where we find out where the (D) party actually stands. Nancy Pelosi says good things about it - what will that translate into?

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America Is Not As Strong As It Thinks
Posted by: braxxian on Nov 27, 2006 2:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I always love listening to Americans tell about how "they" won WW 2. In truth the US was a member (admittedly a large and important one) of a vast coalition of countries that defeated the axis powers in 1939-45. In fact 80% of Hitler’s forces in Europe were dealt with by the Russians, America and the allies had by far the weakest elements of the Third Reich to deal with so lets all remember that when boasting about how "we" won WW 2.

Since that time the United States has failed to win any major war. A draw in Korea, a loss in Vietnam followed by a turkey shoot against a vastly inferior foe in Gulf War 1 is all that America has to show for the last 60 years. And now you find yourselves bogged down in Iraq, a war that you started for your own reasons and now can't get out of without embarrassing yourselves.

Bottom line, the US is no where near as powerful as it thinks it is, sure you have lots of high tech wizz bang toys but these are of little use in a real war where ground is taken and held by men of conviction fighting for a noble cause. It is this area where the United States fails the ultime test.

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» And Posted by: WhatNow?
» SuperPowerful Fool Posted by: ssmit355
Factual accuracy is important
Posted by: tuxperger on Nov 27, 2006 2:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all: thousands of iraqis did risk their necks. Doesn't anybody remember the Kurdish guerilla -- and the subsequent gassing? Or the shia uprising in the south, after Gulf War 1 (you know, the one where America did nothing)?

The difference between Saddam and any U.S. government is that, no matter what you might say, no U.S. gov't has been willing to engage in real, serious evil. The sunni insurgency would be over in a day if tactical nukes were used... (no, I'm not advocating it. Just spelling out the options. The Brits used genocide to sustain their empire. The Romans did. If you really want an empire, better get your hands dirty.)

And then "We didn't know that WE were the ones funding and arming Saddam for many years, including those when he massacred the Kurds. He was our guy".

A truth with modifications. Iraq was actually under a U.S. embargo, until Saddam was stupid enough to try and invade Iran, and the country was about to be overrun... then indeed the U.S. provided weapons -- indirectly, not to annoy Tel Aviv -- and satellite intelligence. What else could they do? As Kissinger remarked, "it's a pity they cannot both lose."

In those days the Reagan admin did some really bad things e.g. in Central America, but in this situation, I don't feel they had much of a choice.

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» RE: Factual accuracy is important Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Factual accuracy is important Posted by: Mr. Heathen
truth
Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 27, 2006 3:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MM told truth to corrupt power. BRAVO. Now we must tell the new power to impeach the criminal power so this immoral and bloody nonsense never happens again.

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Mia Culpa is hardly the answer from a corrupt policeman
Posted by: IanA on Nov 27, 2006 3:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Mia Culpa” is hardly an answer. American ignorance, domestic brain washing, and its “shoot now, and not even ask who you shot later”, attitude to the world is a reflection of a centrist immoral naivety which is the problem. There is still a question whether the US (with Israel) will use force to “change” the regime of Iran….. So what’s all this talk of the Americans are “learning” their lessons. Hillary Clinton is a good example of the “potential” of the Democrats to say one thing, to get power and then do just the same as the Republicans when it comes to perpetuating ignorance and violence in foreign policy matters. Your political choices are just another delusion.

As long as the US tries to maintain any control over what happens in Iraq, through its own military presence or by supporting one faction over another or propping up the government of Prime Minister Nuri Al Maliki, which by the way cannot stand without the artifice of US support, the insurgence and power struggle will continue and take more inocent lives.

It is obvious that any diminution of violence would be a de facto confirmation the present status quo and the occupation of Iraq by US interests. Iraqis will not accept US military and economic imperialism.

So take your lies that started this war of agression (you have to be kidding to call it a "liberation"), take your 12 or 14 permanent military installations, take your war hardened Ambassadorial “fortress”, take your attempt at ownership of the economy, take your attempted theft of the country’s oil resources through PSAs, and go back to your country.

The principal foreign fighter terrorist elements in Iraq are US and British Forces, understand what terrorism is. If another country did to the US what the US is doing to Iraq just imagine what ordinary Americans would do and how they would react. Road-side bombs would be the least of it.

The US has no “interests” and should not be a factor of power in Iraq and as a global policeman it is unwelcome and a total failure because it is a corrupt policeman. Yankee Go Home!

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» Good man, Ian! Posted by: HeroesAll
» YANKEE GO HOME! Posted by: Cathyc
It is the responsibility of “We The People” to Apologize
Posted by: MAT on Nov 27, 2006 4:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course Michael Moore is right, we should apologize. My real world experience has taught me that when you make a mistake (which evidence justifiably bears out) you must be, in some way, responsible for the consequences. Whether those consequences should incur rebuke or punishment are dependent on the severity of the mistake and conditions under which has been committed.

If the accused is responsible, he/she will accept their responsibility with explanation or admission and move to make amends to minimize (perhaps, justifiably so) their own personal consequences.

If the accused chooses to evade responsibility, he/she will resort to unscrupulous denial of culpability in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It’s a very instinctual defense mechanism to do whatever it takes to survive.

In the case of the Iraq debacle, George, Dick and their ilk will do and say anything to avoid taking whatever lumps they may have coming. Meanwhile, the facts of history continue to bear the truth of a hemorrhaging situation that continues to cause more long-term damage.

There’s no sense in waiting for any official apology from our government so ‘We The People’ need to step up and set the agenda. There is no way that the situation in Iraq will change unless they there are given some hope that there are fundamental changes in attitude occurring from the various players in this deadly game.

A Course of Action for Creating Solutions
We’re launching a web based, ‘Iraq Apology’ initiative based on our site MyAmericaToo.com. The ‘Iraq Apology’ will be unveiled in Berlin, Germany on December 15 that will allow people to log on and apologize to the Iraqi people. This action will allow folks to choose what it is that that want to apologize for and to whom these apologies should be directed. Other features of the initiative will organize some basic demographic and opinion data to provide visitors with the ability to view and analyze the real-time prevailing social trends of those of us who do wish to apologize.

By the new year we hope to have a direct line of telephone communication up on the web so Iraqis can communicate directly with registered users of the site for free. These calls will be streamed so that visitors can listen in.

We invite you to join our opinion poll being launched today 11-27-06 to help us refine the site to provide you with a comprehensive tool that can help make a real difference. We also invite you to help support this people powered initiative with any donations or patronage from our shop.

The time is too critical now to hit the snooze button after the midterm election only to wake up to another set of nightmare scenarios in the days, weeks and years to come.

Don’t accept a societal construct based on the manipulation and aggression leaving the spoils of security and comfort to the few at the expense of the many. I expect that there are a growing number of people, globally who would agree with me that we need to continue to:

• Utilize the power of “We The People” to maintain a persistent pattern of positive change regarding the many issues facing us as a nation and as citizens of the world.
• Inspire a greater portion of the American populace to organize and participate in defining and acting to bring about the implementation of solutions via awareness and understanding of the issues, options and consequences inherent therein.
• Make participation in such actions socially understandable, desirable, more convenient and economically feasible without presenting significant strains on people’s time commitments.

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We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany...???
Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 27, 2006 4:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh really? That's news to me LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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It is a supreme pity
Posted by: xbj on Nov 27, 2006 5:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is a supreme pity that America would have to nuke the White House and string up everyone in this Administration from Hell itself before this last blood-and-gold orgy of death of innocents and America's troops and over-the-top war contracting profiteering ends.

It is a supreme pity that this is the only thing that would stop this last-ditch attempt by absolute madmen to rape every last penny they can out of the American treasury. They might not get off on the blood, but they sure as Hell get off on the increase of their estates, and it's all the same to God in the end.

And will be all the same to history as well, no matter how much money they spend to spin and write it. Truth is, and will alway be, stronger than their bloodsoaked lies.

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"mission accomplished"=iraq chaos=...
Posted by: channing on Nov 27, 2006 6:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
indeed, bush's "mission" included a trillion-dollar windfall for his buddies in the oil/military/industrial carnival, and "accomplished" should not be confused with "military victory".

we, the people, indeed owe a massive apology, AND war-reparations, as well as some measure of legal investigations as to the "how", and followed by "justice".

how to get out? #1). Leave #2). place $125B in a fund released directly to the "victims", each individual pocketing about $5,000., conditional only on the ratification of "any" constitution offering revenue and security sharing for the nation's people. (you can bet they'll get off their asses, form a government and claim the reparations quickly, the people themselves will want their piece!) #3). offer to "help" them in any way, including opening visas, academic, cultural and preferred-trading status.

the immediate release of high-pressure hostilities would reverberate throughout the middle-east bringing welcome respect back to America's image as a beacon of hope, in liberty, and justice... but this one move, more importantly, will truly free the iraqis, the very thing most of them probably wish for, our broken promise to them corrected.

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Why not ask the experts?
Posted by: Beagle17 on Nov 27, 2006 6:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Couldn't, or shouldn't, the Democratic Party (not just its leaders) just somehow force the White House to ask the most relevant group of military generals what the best course of action is? The generals seem to all realize the situation is hopeless, and we could probably count on them to call for a prompt withdrawal. Then, it's just leaving behind a few crates of weapons for the Sunnis, and giving the keys to the best bunkers to all your favorite arms dealers.

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It takes courage and humility
Posted by: ggmurray on Nov 27, 2006 6:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It takes courage and humility to admit we were wrong. To realize what we have done and that there is no way to make it right.
To me, it was obvious this war was wrong in every way, months before it began.
Thank you Michael Moore for speaking the truth. May it rouse our mesmerized leaders to an honest accounting and honest withdrawal.

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Not quite right, Michael
Posted by: phindrup on Nov 27, 2006 6:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looking in the right direction, but nowhere near far enough!
Whatever the problem to get to the solution you first have to own it.
The current US administration is made up of war criminals. As is Britains Blair and Australia’s Howard.
By voting Bush back in the American people changed the situation from a rogue administration into a rogue nation — as did Australia.
For the sake of the nation the Bush administration must be tried for their crimes.
Tell the world, loud and clear so that there can be no misunderstanding that the criminals will pay, that companies that grew fat on the non tendered contracts in Iraq will be forced to refund the money. The money, not just the profits.
Rescind all ‘contracts’ that have been awarded at gunpoint.
Set up an ongoing fund under the control of an international committee to rebuild Iraq.
Leave the calling of contracts and priority decisions in the hands of the Iraqis, but make payments only upon solid evidence of the work being done.
Set up and fund a legal structure whereby all Iraqi citizens can claim compensation for property, injury and loss of life caused by the situation brought about by criminal venture.
Australia and Great Britain would have to be pressured into contributing on a prorate basis.
The costs would be a drain on the three economies for at least the next 50 years. It just might be enough to keep people aware of the cost meddling in the affairs of others.
Get it written into your constitution that attempting to cause regime changes is not in the interest of the United States, and proclaim drastic punishments for anyone who is tempted to try.
The US to most would still stink, but it would accelerate the healing process and raise hope in those so often threatened with mayham by the Bush administration that America had mended its ways.
Withdraw all financial and military support for Israel which would force the Israelis to negotiate in earnest, and provide a real chance of peace in the middle east.

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» RE: Not quite right, Michael Posted by: ssmit355
The Grand Illusion
Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 27, 2006 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US has gotten it's a** kicked in Iraq, just like we had lost Vietnam long before we withdrew our forces. The facts of the battlefield don't care about your political record or your intent.

Nixon entered the White House with a promise of a 'secret plan' and dithered around for years, and another 20,501 American Troops died in the process. Then it bacame a search for 'Peace with Honor'. Ultimately, it took a funding cut-off by the Congress to put an end to it.

We should have never done it. Bring the troops home. ☮

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US must stay in Iraq
Posted by: tashi on Nov 27, 2006 7:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US has a moral, and legal duty to stay in Iraq, no matter what the price in blood and treasure. This neo-con White House has plunged Iraq into a chaos, but the vast majority of Americans supported this hellish nightmare let lose in Iraq.

What most Americans don't know, is that this strategy to create chaos in Iraq and greater Middle-East was conceived in Israel back in 70s and 80s.

Israel wants the Arab countries to be divided along secterian, ethnic boundries, into smaller, ineffectual little states, that no longer threaten Israel's expansionist goals for an "Eretz Israel." In order to realize this dream, the arabs have to be divided into smaller groups that fight each other, instead of uniting against a common enemy. Its the classic divide and conquer startegy.
Here's link to this "Divide and Conquer" strategy:
Zionist Plan
Israel Shahak, the great Israeli human rights activist, translated some of the policy papers by Israeli bureacrats regarding this strategy.

The neocons are helping Israel in realizing its dream of Eretz Israel. Americans are morally and legally culpable to avoid the injustice done by their government.

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» Those cunning Hebrews Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Those cunning Hebrews Posted by: tashi
» RE: Those cunning Hebrews Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Those cunning Hebrews Posted by: zipper696
» RE: US must stay in Iraq Posted by: kbiteye
kbiteye
Posted by: kbiteye on Nov 27, 2006 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you Michael Moore, I agree that if the democrats don't stop this war it may be their last win of a national election. I also think that impeachment preceedings ought to get underway for the whole Bush administration from both terms.

I think that it may be time for us to nationalize our oil industry, now that would be a war. .. . . wonder who would win . ..

the people with low cost energy, that is clean and renewable, living in peace and harmony with its oil producing neigbors?;

OR

the present greedy, private, free enterprise oil industry, with the people living with continuously rising energy prices, huge profits for oil companies, continued struggle against the stop the global warming movement, more wars for oil, dirty air, outdated, dirty technology with "dirty air" and non renewable sources of energy?

But as we know, nationalization is impossible now -- but the time will come when we may just demand such. Since we do all the work anyway, why can't the people own the oil/energy?

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Michael Moore exonerated
Posted by: zipper696 on Nov 27, 2006 8:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How bitter-sweet it must be for MM to see all his predictions and analysis of America's collapse into a pseudo dictatorship prove to be on the money.

I remember his very early warnings pre-Gulf 2 that the nation was being dragged into a fake "war on Terror" for reasons that had nothing to do with Muslim Extremism or keeping the country safe.

The scumbags in Washington will continue to claim they were bringing Democracy and overthrowing a tyrant, perhaps we need to do the same...

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» RE: Michael Moore exonerated Posted by: turbocrusher
No apologies
Posted by: badkitty on Nov 27, 2006 9:54 AM   
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This is an illegal war. It has been since the day it was proposed. I am not apologizing to any soldier who obeyed illegal orders and deployed to Iraq (or Afghanistan or Guantanamo). I will not apologize to any soldier/national guardsman who engaged in war crimes. I will apologize to the Iraqi people for the misuse of my tax dollars to finance our criminal military and pay the salaries of our criminal congressmen/women and senators, not to mention administration officials. Don't underestimate my anger at this totally unnecessary illegal war and the people who keep it going. (Back in the day, antiwar protestors tried to stop troop trains coming into the Oakland Induction Center and tried to persuade draftees/volunteers to refuse to go to Vietnam. They laughed. If people take a stand against an illegal war, I can support them. If not, too bad, too sad. People tried to stop the Vietnam war, and people tried to stop the Iraq invasion. I have no sympathy for those who served. As the friend of men who went to jail rather than go to Vietnam or who are now Canadian citizens, and the daughter in law of an 89 year woman who is working the phones at a group that helps soldiers who go AWOL--where the phones are ringing off the hook all day long, I save my sympathy for those who understand the difference between right and wrong.)

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» Go the Baghdad Posted by: Burton
milltom
Posted by: milltom on Nov 27, 2006 10:48 AM   
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Re throwing out the "bad guys" in Afghanistan, to do so the US made a pact with the other "bad guys" - the same corrupt war lords that the Taliban had thrown out of power - and now faces the consequences of hiring these thugs to do the dirty work of chasing out the Taliban, namely, the return of the Taliban due to the corrupt and ineffective Afghan government in Kabul. Had the U.S. not abandoned Afghanistan to attack Iraq, it could have helped build a peaceful, stable, civil society. Since Afghanistan has no oil, the White House attitude is "what the hell", we'll let the Taliban back in. As distasteful at the Taliban were/are, we are once again being shown how ineffective we are at invading and forcing change at the point of a gun. With a wiser Presidency, this could all have been avoided since the Taliban were willing to give up Osama if shown evidence of his involvement with 9/11 - but then Bush would have lost his main "evildoer" justifying his endless war and the sacrifice of our civil liberties (not to mention hundreds of thousands of lives and countless billions of our national treasure).

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Leaving...all the black gold ....
Posted by: picket on Nov 27, 2006 11:22 AM   
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I do not think so. "If the US is ultimately leaving Iraq, why is all that cash going to build permanent bases?" Camp Anaconda near Balad..... "The camp is spread over 15 square miles and is being constructed to accommodate 20,000 soldiers."
http://www.fcnl.org/iraq/bases.htm

Bought and sold for human blood....the heartless laugh all the way to the bank. BushCo [including Gates , Baker and the extended family] will consider it a WIN.

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Michael Moore for President!!
Posted by: sphoenix on Nov 27, 2006 11:25 AM   
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Here is a guy who isn't afraid to tell is like it is...at least as much of it as he knows.

In '08 we should all say, "Fuck you clowns!" and write in Moore. (Of course it will never happen, but I can dream of a paradise in Amerika, can't I?)

Oh well, back to my prison cube...

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» RE: Michael Moore for President!! Posted by: timebomb734
Hesham Tellawi PHD:
Posted by: rwa on Nov 27, 2006 11:35 AM   
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In 1982, a Mossad strategy paper was published in Beirut by the AAUG where it took each Arab country and described in details where the fault lines exist in every country and the easiest way to break it up. They said Iraq was to be broken up into three different countries, Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites. In 1996 Zionist Richard Perle, who in 2001 was the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy, Zionist Douglas Feith, who in 2001 was the Chairman of the Office of Special planning at the Pentagon and others, mainly Jewish Zionists, wrote a policy paper titled " A Clean Break: Strategy for Securing the Realm" and presented it to then Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu which clearly stated "...removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq," an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right." It also clearly stated the idea of a " New Middle East" It was also presented to then President Clinton who rejected the idea of invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussien. If you look at the Bush Administration in the first term you will see it was saturated with Jews who were more Israeli than American. Their loyalty was to make sure Israeli demands are met even if it was at the expense of America, no mater what the cost may be.

It is now obvious to everyone that the only reason America attacked Iraq was to break it up into three countries. The US and the whole World knew back then, before the war on Iraq started, that an Iraqi civil war was the only result to be expected. Well, that is exactly what was needed to breakup the country. Now the country is in the middle of, and being encouraged by many powers, a civil war until the end. Knowingly or not, the American military establishment was able to meet Israel's objective. The job is done - it's well done. As a matter of fact, most of the Zionists have left George Bush to deal with the problem alone. They are distancing themselves from him. Most of those Zionists who started the war are long gone, so no one would point a finger at the "Jews". It's not possible for the Republicans to cut and run from Iraq even though the war objective was met. It's not good for America's reputation in the world. Therefore, it is time for someone other than Republicans to clean up the mess, and since we do not have anyone else but the Democrats, so the democrats were hired to finish the job.

You don't need to be a genius to see the shift in the Mainstream Media coverage of Iraq in the last few months before the elections in November to figure out that the "powers that be" have decided to remove the Republicans and bring in the Democrats to wrap things up as the good guys who did not like what the Republicans have done.

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» RE: Hesham Tellawi PHD:....110% Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: Hesham Tellawi PHD:....110%.... Posted by: Captainmagic
9/11= LIE ---> War on Terror = LIE ---> Iraq War = LIE
Posted by: LeftWright on Nov 27, 2006 11:53 AM   
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See a pattern?

Destroy the 9/11 Myth and you end their sick game, forever.

Work with the 9/11 Truth movement, work for real change, end the madness before it ends us.

Just look at the destruction of WTC 7 and tell me that's not a controlled demolition. There is still no government explanation for this and it is NEVER shown by the MSM.

WTC 7 = The 9/11 Smoking Gun.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Be well.

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» RE: Getting out of Iraq (short version) Posted by: Conservasaurus
McCain is not bonkers
Posted by: UnEasyOne on Nov 27, 2006 12:03 PM   
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He's an unscrupulous whore who, now that the Dems have ridden the antiwar horse to electoral victory, has removed his nose from W's butt long enough to position himself for '08. He knows that a) we don't have the troops to send and b) 50,000 more would accomplish nothing. He also knows that memories are short and when the "Who lost Iraq?" debate rages (as it inevitably will - in some quarters more than others) he will stand out as the lone voice calling at the time fore more troops. On another note Michael, I have much appreciated your "voice in the wilderness" over the years. You are an excellent propagandist and lord knows we on the left have sorely needed the help in recent years. However, when addressing a primarily leftist audience you risk reducing yourself to irrelevance as a "Limbaugh of the left" when you play fast and loose with the facts as you have here. You do valuable work - don't get lost in your own hyperbole.

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» RE: McCain is not bonkers Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: McCain is not bonkers Posted by: CatDad
Watch Hillary also-(Her moment has arrived too)
Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 27, 2006 12:49 PM   
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MM asks us to watch Pelosi and Reid. Yes- they are the key players. But I've got my eye on Hillary too?To be credible she needs to speak more forcefully about immediate withdrawal also. Her moment to be a leader has arrived too- right now

Dr. Rick Lippin

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Scenarios
Posted by: Ivo Moelans on Nov 27, 2006 1:59 PM   
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What should happen:
* Get as fast as possible out of Iraq - damn the consequences because they will always be better than any alternative. Apologies? Not necessary, because there are none.
* Impeach that idiot you call president.
* Bring the war criminals Bush, Rumsfeld and others to trial (preferably in Nuremburg) and let the enabler Powell bear witness how he was fooled/pushed/whatever in lying to the UN and the world (and America).
* Treat your allies as allies and not as vassals.

What probably will happen:
* Democrats will not want to appear weak: ergo the fiasco will drag on
* Republicans will not want to appear being wrong: ergo thousands of American will die for exactly nothing in Iraq
* The moron in the White House has no clue and will spend another trillion dollars in his remaining two years (which you will eventually have to pay for).
* It is not even certain a Democrat will be president in 2009

What won't happen (but wouldn't it be nice):
* The civilized nations, a coalition of the willing and the eager, gang up on you and liberate you.
* They look for WMD and, lo and behold, find them. About 10000 of them.
* After a brief trial by an 'independent' court the war criminals are convicted and hanged.
* They make you pay for your liberation (fair is fair).
* Companies of the Liberators reconstruct America: almost 10 % of the electricity is restored as is 5 % of the water supply.
* The Liberators leave, after killing about 500000 insurgents, but ask Mexico and Canada to keep an eye on you.

OK, that last bit was satire. Sort of. No kidding, I am confident, well, I hope that Americans will reclaim their democracy and that by 2010 this will all seem a distant nightmare.

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Afghanistan is not happily ever after
Posted by: RBurgess on Nov 27, 2006 2:23 PM   
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It seems because Afghanistan has slipped off your US news agenda it is out of sight out of mind. It's an atrocious fucking mess, lawless and violent. When it could be helped (assuming any integrity of the coalition of the shilling) forces/resources were withdrawn to hit Iraq.
Other than that well done Michael.

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"Congress controls the purse strings" - will they cut them?
Posted by: SteveB on Nov 27, 2006 2:32 PM   
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"Congress controls the purse strings and the Constitution says only Congress can declare war. Mr. Reid and Ms. Pelosi now hold the power to put an end to this madness."

Early next year, Congress will vote on a $160 billion "supplementary funding" bill for t