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Young Borrowers Face A Life of Debt
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For new college graduates and people out of school for only a few years, financial worries are enormous. Home prices, even if they are starting to fall, remain very high relative to ordinary incomes, and higher mortgage rates are no balm to money worries either. All Americans carry more debt on average than in the past but the increase for young people is most striking since young workers generally earn the least. Between college loans and car loans, people in their 20s are amazingly burdened financially compared to earlier generations, especially compared to my own generation of late-stage baby-boomer.
If in the 1960s and early 70s, my college friends and new graduates shouted, "Burn baby burn," to signify their desire to tearing down the status quo, youth today embrace the credo, "Borrow, baby, borrow" because of their dependency on cheap credit without which their chances of building a decent middle-class life seem poor to none.
If you wonder why borrowed money fuels the lifestyles of all ages, turn on a new documentary, "In Debt We Trust," by the veteran dissenting TV journalist and media critic, Danny Schechter. "In Debt We Trust" vividly shows how Americans get ensnared in a web of debt spun by a "credit industrial complex" that almost seems to function like a conspiracy to drive people into financial servitude. Schechter's central insight is bold, provocative and timely. As he quotes a Brooklyn consumer activist, "Debt is profitable."
Out of this kernel of truth comes Schechter's fascinating tour of the various ways that lenders earn money, chiefly through short-term loans through credit cards. While the abuses of card companies are well known, Schechter sheds light on some emerging credit practices that will inspire outrage in his viewers. One of the most insidious is a service by H. & R. Block to loan money against future tax returns at very high rates.
In narrating the 90-minute documentary, Schechter generally maintains an even tone, cogently making the case for how credit-card companies promote "excessive debt" and the costs of becoming addicted to revolving-credit, whereby a customer pays off only the interest on a loan each month. He also smartly finds common ground between progressives and conservatives who both preach against the perils of dependency on borrowed money. There really is bi-partisan support for clamping down on companies that suck the financial blood of debt-ridden consumers. And more broadly, the perils of too much debt are real, both for individuals and the national government, whose borrowings have reached record levels and continue to mount because of supersized-budget deficits greatly worsened by unwise tax cuts.
A day of reckoning is not out of the question; the debt bomb may yet explode, taking American prosperity with it. Housing values are falling, most everywhere now, and that's perilous for American consumers who, as "In Debt We Trust" shows, have used home-equity borrowing as a piggybank for years. On a national level, the bubble can burst too. The size of the federal debt, and the growing dependence on China to cover this debt through purchases of Treasury Bills, could lead to a collapse in the value of the dollar and a sharp, steep rise in interest rates, choking off the very lending that fuels economic activity and bringing about severe economic contraction, along with job losses and wage declines.
When Schechter preaches about "American before the big bursts," he means a calamity along these lines. Predicting financial plunges is tricky business, and Schechter fails to make a compelling case for an approaching apocalypse. However, even if the debt bubble doesn't burst, "In Debt We Trust" delivers a powerful wake-up call to consumers, especially young ones. Most important is the film's insistence that debt isn't purely personal but wholly political too. The excesses of the industry built on personal debt deserve a political response and "In Debt We Trust" gives an introduction to how the political backlash against personal debt may unfold.
Unfortunately, Schechter says too little about the contours of the coming backlash, though he wisely examines the recent revisions to the law on personal bankruptcy. He quotes Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee calling the law an "atrocity." Lee's hyperbolic language (and there is much more of it in the film) is justified. The new bankruptcy law greatly assists credit-card companies by making it far more difficult for ordinary people to escape debts that they have no chance of paying off. The new Congress should roll back this new bankruptcy law, restoring a fair playing field for borrowers who aren't solely responsible for their debts (lenders are too; they took the risk of lending in the first place, remember).
Federal regulations over credit companies, too loose for many years, should be tightened too. Card companies need to lower interest-rates, cut late-payment fees and make their messages to consumers clearer and simpler. A single strong piece of progressive legislation can remedy many of the misdeeds by card companies depicted in "In Debt We Trust."
There is an irony here of course. In most parts of the world, credit is scarce, especially for ordinary people. Homes are paid for in cash, and small businesses can't expand unless a relative of the owner lends money on a personal basis. Bias in banking systems is rife. I often travel abroad and I am constantly remind of how open and liberal credit is in the U.S. and how many people benefit from such openness. On my last visit, to the southern Africa country of Malawi, one of my hosts proudly invited me to his new home near the center of the capital and nervously told me that the rate on his mortgage tops 30 percent!
In the style of a crusading journalist, Schechter never points out the benefits of America's love affair with cheap credit. Americans get to their live their dreams in way few can in some other countries. But "In Debt We Trust" stands with the people for whom cheap credit has turned into an American nightmare.
Danny Schechter, a veteran TV journalist and media critic, directed the new independent documentary "In Debt We Trust." With all of the pressing issues in the world, from the war in Iraq to climate change, he makes the case for paying attention to the perils of America's "bubble" economy and the debt bomb that may go off -- at theaters near you.
G. Pascal Zachary: Why debt?
Danny Schechter: "Economic issues are being ignored. Nobody is talking about the ever-expanding American debt. And how the conflict between lenders and borrowers is the new dividing line in America.
Zachary: Why now?
Schechter: We have an issue that goes beyond the partisan divide. The national deficit is growing. Every American is responsible for that. We're taking loans from China for the government to pay its bills. Adjustable rate mortgages are moving upwards, raising the cost of housing. College loans are on variable rates, so they're getting more expensive too. And credit cards have gone from a luxury to a necessity to a noose
Zachary: What's the central problem?
Schechter: There's a credit loan complex that's everywhere as insidious as the military industrial complex. And it's consolidating. Power in this industry is being held in fewer and fewer hands.
Zachary: What can be done?
Schechter: The first step is raising awareness. People don't usually talk about this problem. It's a point of embarrassment to be overwhelmed by debt. When you give people permission to talk about this, they pour out. We also need grassroots political action to promote responsible lending. We have to roll back the bankruptcy law changes. We have to fund counseling and advice. We need to make financial literacy part of our educational system
Zachary: Why isn't easy credit a good thing?
Schechter: It can be but we've gone overboard. The democratization of credit also means the democratization of dependency.
Zachary: Many civic groups, unions, even Working Assets, have pushed credit cards. Should those be cut back?
Schechter: The union affinity credit-card programs are among the most successful. Because people will feel the union will protect them But in many cases the unions have nothing to do with the card, they are just the broker, so members have to protect themselves.
Zachary: What about frugality, simple living, spending less? Is that one way to fight back?
Schechter: Its possible to spend less, but difficult because we're living in a time when its very hard to avoid rising prices. Young kids have to have the latest things. Business are charging more for something we used to get for less. We live in a culture where consumption is stimulated. It's hard to ignore.
Zachary: You suggest at times that there is a conspiracy to trap as many Americans as possible into crushing debt, simply in order for banks to boost profits. Is it really that bad?
Schechter: The card companies are a cartel. They collaborate as much as they compete. They use the same techniques. There are people who see techniques, and the companies who use them, as evil. I don't personally like those terms. But I think the card companies are insensitive. They are chasing revenue and they don't care how they get it. They go over the top.
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Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 18, 2006 12:33 AM
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» Apples and oranges
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Posted by: anothername on Nov 18, 2006 3:45 AM
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With obesity, discussion almost never turns to the reality that Americans have reduced their walking time due to growing dangers caused by increased automotive traffic and reduced presence of sidewalks or to the very low cost of subsidized corn production and the higher price of subsidized sugar. The problem lies just with the wanton selfishness of Americans and the greedy corporations that package empty calories. With debt, discussion almost never turns to the reasons why it has increased beyond selfish consumerism and the buy-now mentality of Americans.
Government tells us to buy houses and gives incentives to developers and purchasers towards this goal. Apartment buildings are built in the least attractive parts of communities or are so filled with amenities that the costs increase. Then, just to find an apartment includes growing application fees, higher property tax rates passed on to the renter, and other costs and delays. In my case, as I used to move frequently, I found myself increasingly having to spend more money on longer hotel stays because I couldn't quickly move into decent apartments. This creates an economic drain that sooner or later ends up on credit cards or in other high-interest rate loans.
As minimum wage languished for 10 years, executives, managers, and people with well-paying jobs spent more and more on housing and pushed the Internet to a bandwidth-heavy functionality. Thus, the people in the lower half of income brackets were forced to pay more for housing as prices were bid up and were forced to spend more on DSL or an equivalent system just to deal with flashing media, flowing graphics, and other add-ons that have already created an Internet that is not neutral. Then there is the reduction of public transit service across the nation that has forced more people into personal automobiles at much higher direct and indirect costs.
Yes, the credit card companies and other businesses are taking advantage of the situation and making it worse. I figuratively yell, and strongly comment literally, to the companies whose credit cards I use for personal and business expenses that I would much rather have a lower interest rate than to see my hard-earned money wasted on incentive programs. Heck, just by eliminating what the companies spend in salaries to the executives and workers who develop these programs and the printing and mailing costs for all the junk, the interest rates on the cards could probably be reduced by 2%-3% easily.
This doesn't even take into account the cost of landfills, waste hauling, pollution from production, cost of gasoline and pollution to move all the material items around. It doesn't discuss how unions helped create a more even income distribution so one group wasn't pricing the other out of the marketplace and putting each other into heavy debt. It doesn't look at the history of company towns where workers could never get out of debt.
Yes, debt can be both good and bad. It provides for managed risks. Yet, we also have to look beyond the issue of debt to how money is distributed in the U.S., including the investment capital. The recent IPO of Hertz, where a group of investors had bought the company, drained resources, then offered it for sale with the IPO earnings going to the investors who walked away with easy millions and relatively little of the raised funds going to the operation, capitalization, or expansion of the business. All that money in the stock market is making a few people very happy.
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 18, 2006 4:19 AM
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Working folks living from paycheck to paycheck have a much higher cost of living than the wealthy. Few seem to notice...but I guess they're not supposed to notice.
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Posted by: MAT on Nov 18, 2006 6:49 AM
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Let's face it, we're animals, mammals to be exact. We hunt, we gather, we seek out the resources to survive and thrive. We utilize the strengths of groups to control territory and defend our resources and ourselves. Typically, alpha males, being the loudest, strongest, most aggressive and most cunning get the spoils of overseeing the whole operation.
However, it is our intellect, our ability to reason and create which differentiates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. We are at the point where we have devised many clever constructs beyond sheer brute force, albeit an arguable assertion, so that the alpha male can remain on top.
The good news is that we are moving in the right direction. These days, the alpha female can get hers, even the alpha black/hispanic man can get in on the game and you can even cash in outside of western 'rich' nations and so on. Heck, just about anyone who is aggressive/clever/unscrupulous enough can lead their own pack and even subjugate others more efficiently. Did I say good news? I meant encouraging news...at least now we can start to see that this 'alpha syndrome' is an inherent component owned by all of humanity.
Now the question is, how do we get this thing under grips and start to utilize our human ingenuity and (ultimately) our instinct to survive, in a much more sustainable and effective fashion rather than the pure pursuit of selfish spoils?
Sure we can tackle and solve our debt and many other problems but based on what motivations? Our motivations for solving problems are typically based on our natural survival instincts in conjunction with personal desires. It seems to be a logical conclusion that if we can do a better job of accepting and regulating the excess of our instinctual vices while influencing our personal desires via education, we might just have a decent shot at working something reasonable out. Think of it as nature working with nurture as opposed to versus.
We need to be honest and upfront in assessing who we are, what our true desires/needs are and start to re-engineer our political/social/economic constructs using human ingenuity to overcome excessive human aggressiveness.
Towards the end of the article the author makes a very good point that one of the first steps in any recovery program are awareness and acceptance of the problem. Right now, that goal is being made more difficult because the powerful industries behind the problem are pushing harder to perpetuate it.
That’s why it’s up to us, “We The People” to take effective action and guide the process; we’re very effective en-masse. The real good news is that We, for the first time in the history of mankind, are able to effectively work together in this internet ‘age of acceleration’.
For my part, I see that I have a few more ideas to materialize in the next serveral days; I invite you to join me in the effort to spread awareness of this and many other issues. It’s time the ‘alpha people’ realize that it's Our America Too.
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» Whaddya Mean "We", Kemosaabe?
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 18, 2006 7:15 AM
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There's not much evidence to support that claim. The Congress under Republican rule has taken the side of the credit card and finance companies against the public every time. It'll be interesting to see if the Democratic Congress is any different (Bush would surely veto any legislation).
Bush Donors Reap Big Dividends from Taxpayers; At least 200 of Bush's "Pioneers" and "Rangers" have reaped financial benefit
The basic fact is that credit cards and loans are generally very, very bad ideas. Loans for starting a business or building a house might be one exception, depending on the structure of the loans. Eventually, the whole country is going to go bankrupt, thanks to Republican policies - why do you think Cheney keeps a good fraction of his ~100 million fortune in euros?
Milton Friedman just passed away - one of the founders of Monetarism (control of the monentary supply) economics and a product of John D.Rockefeller's University of Chicago, as well as a recipient of the tacked-on "Nobel Prize in Economics". Economics is often little more than an attempt to provide a scientific basis for massive wealth disparities, as a replacement for the old religious explanation of divine providence and will.
Much of "Modern economic theory" is just tripe aimed at justifying the current wealth distribution in Western societies. It's noblesse oblige - the wise and wealthy nobility has a responsibility to care for the economic well-being of the unwashed masses. In reality, it's those very masses that are footing the bill for royalty - nothing much has changed.
In particular, the notion that the poorer classes should have to bury themselves in debt to get a decent college education and make a living is ridiculous. It guarantees ten or twenty years of payments to the banks that hold the federal loans. Credit cards are traps for the foolish and unwary, but how else is someone from inner-city or rural America going to get an education at our expensive 'public' universities?
Current debt laws in the USA are just part of a system aimed at keeping poor people poor and transferring what little assets they may possess to the credit and finance corporations. There are no real benefits of cheap credit. American's don't get to 'live their dreams'; they're suckered into deceitful financial arrangements that keep them as captive servants for decades.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 18, 2006 7:17 AM
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Posted by: edhowes on Nov 18, 2006 7:21 AM
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Irresponsibility and unaccountability goes hand in hand with corruption and greed in high places. The result is a burgeoning lawlessness and economic free for alls. Nothing matters beyond escaping blame. It is all someone else's fault and I am just along for the ride. The people who have the solutions speak to a deaf and blind public, or the choir but they do not talk to each other about the effective applications of solutions to the problems. Their answer is invariably to create mass movements which will never happen. Knowing this deep down, the aware are also blameless. Nobody is listening, what are they supposed to do?
You don't get rid of the Federal Reserve when all workers are tithing 15% of their weekly pay to its support and operation. The people who rule the world are totally unconcerned with any citizen protest unless it becomes popular. Since the masters of the universe can come on their media and give the public irresistable new and better ideas, they nip all movements in the bud.
With the U.S. dollar losing about 8% of its face value each year, no matter what the official inflation numbers, the borrower does much better than the saver, unless that saver is buying gold or silver. Very few do. So credit becomes the poor man's hedge. The longer he can take paying off even high interest debt, the less the credit is costing.
What we all need is government credit. Increase the limit every year, continue the borrowing every year, pay a fixed 5% on the principal and only pay the interest. That individuals do not get such favorable terms is no surprise. Individuals have no bargaining power with central banks. Once the people have formed a habit of supporting the global rule of corporate bankers, they will only break the habit when it is forced upon them by unemployment and they are no longer too busy playing the game to think about the alternatives. This depression will be the real wake up call. The 911 event was only a snooze alarm.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 18, 2006 7:31 AM
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Here's an example of how Congress and the President have worked together to make sure Americans stay in debt and keep making their payments:
"Credit-card giant MBNA wanted to collect more of its customers' debts.
The Delaware-based company has supplied 54 million Americans with novelty credit cards displaying Elvis Presley, a charging Florida State University Seminole on horseback, or an Icelandair flight cruising above the Atlantic Ocean.
The seduction by plastic includes bonus points, "Love Me Tender" teddy bears, and occasionally personal bankruptcy.
When MBNA's customers filed Chapter 7 bankruptcy, courts wiped their credit balances away. MBNA wrote off $4.1 billion in unpaid credit-card bills last year.
To stem the losses, the company worked to change the rules. It spent nearly $20 million from 1998 to 2004 to lobby Congress on issues including bankruptcy reform. Even before Mr. Clinton killed a reform bill late in his second term, MBNA had turned to George W. Bush.
MBNA employees gave the Bush campaign more than $200,000 in 2000, the most of any company, and allowed the campaign to use an MBNA corporate jet. The new president pushed bankruptcy reform in his first term, but an unrelated congressional dispute scuttled it.
The company worked hard for Mr. Bush again last year. Former MBNA CEO Charles Cawley and Vice Chairman Lance Loring Weaver both qualified as Rangers, each raising at least $200,000 for the President's re-election.
MBNA surpassed Enron last year to become the largest corporate patron of Mr. Bush's career, according to the Center for Responsive Politics in Washington.
The eight-year struggle for bankruptcy reform ended within 90 days of Mr. Bush's second inaugural address. The 500-page law, initially crafted by a financial services lobbyist, mandates credit counseling for prospective filers and makes it harder to escape credit-card debt.
"The legislation in effect deputizes the bankruptcy courts as collection agents for the credit-card companies," said Mark Sargent, dean of Villanova University's law school, a bankruptcy expert, and critic of the bill. "The great irony of this is that it's having your cake and eating it too. They push credit to anyone with a pulse."
Americans received 5.23 billion credit-card mailings - 18 offers for each man, woman, and child - in 2004, according to Vertis, a marketing consultant. About 1.6 million households filed for bankruptcy last year, according to the American Bankruptcy Institute, up from 287,570 in 1980.
The reform law's implementation in October caused a temporary spike in bankruptcy filings that will hurt MBNA's short-term profits but should reduce future bankruptcy filings, the company said in its quarterly filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Todd Zywicki, a George Mason University law professor who favors the law, testified to a Senate committee that credit-card companies would receive an additional $3 billion each year with its passage.
Based on the market share figures compiled by the industry analyst Web site cardweb.com, the law will give MBNA about $380 million more annually. That figure would feed the company's yearly profit of $2.6 billion.
In June, after the law passed, Bank of America agreed to purchase MBNA for $35 billion, 31 percent above the company's market value at the time. An analyst called the sale price "rich."..."
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» You don't even need a pulse
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Posted by: profmarcus on Nov 18, 2006 8:11 AM
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first of all, it ain't just young people fresh out of school, although i am watching my 23 year-old daughter struggling with all the above... my son and his wife, in their mid-30s, both holding good jobs with a very respectable combined income, are carrying a debt burden that i find positively staggering, and probably won't see daylight for at least 30 more years...
look, let's get really, really real... it "almost seems to function like a conspiracy" because that's exactly what it is... if you're burdened by huge debt, what other choice do you have but to keep working to pay it off, supporting the same system that put you in that dilemma in the first place... this article's author, however, seems to reveal the depth of his own "consumer society" brainwashing, because he just can't resist extolling the virtues of materialism...
now that i'm spending the majority of my time living outside the u.s., i am stupefied at how big the trade-off of getting to "live their dreams" is for americans... while it's true that having the latest gadget is an obsession the world over, there is nowhere that is more true than in the united states... constantly, everywhere i go here, people are rushing madly about in search of the latest "thing" guaranteed to make them happy... it's impossible to avoid because those "things" are constantly in your face, everywhere, all the time... coming in from south america, three hours after landing, i am with my daughter-in-law and her mother in a hospital gift shop to rival any large store in a shopping mall... oh, it's a conspiracy, all right... don't think for one minute that it isn't...
And, yes, I DO take it personally
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» What other choice?
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Posted by: AdamG on Nov 18, 2006 8:29 AM
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Ideally, we as a society, would interact with the environment in a way that conserves resources, at minimum, and enhances them to ensure their supply in the future. As human societies developed, less and less people directly interacted with the environment directly in order to process raw materials procurred by others in order to manufacture more complex tools. Eventually, as people developed agriculture and surplus food, societies were enabled to not only manufacture goods and tools but institutions. This required a mechanism to encourage those that interact with the environment to procur more then they, and society as a whole, need to meet their immediate needs. That mechanism is debt.
No longer did people get only what they need. This was initially possible only because of the abundance of resources. In essence, the Earth and all it's resources are capital. Ideally, we would live off the interest created by the interaction of the Earth and Sun. Instead, we have drawing from the capital of the Earth. This liquidation of the "capital" enabled the human population explosion that started 10,000 years ago.
This worked until societies depleted the natural capital of a locality of an area to the point of ecological bankruptcy. This is now evident in the deserts of the Arabian Peninsula, the Shara, the Sahel, and most other wind swept sand dunes. Very few deserts are natural with a few exceptions (the Atacama Desert is one). This fueled the migration and conquest into new areas. This also fueled ever more complex institutions of debt.
As civilsation marched into nearly every corner of the world another mechanism was developed to enable global conquest. That was the undervaluation of natural resources. There were always new abundant areas to exploit so raw materials were valued in such a way as to not encourage their conservation as there was always somewhere else to get them cheaper.
We have nearly migrated into and conquered most areas of the planet. We have overexploited nearly ever resource to the extent as to affect their perpetuation. We have also constructed one of the most sophisticated system of institutionalized debt ever seen. Quite literally, we have run into a wall. It is time to turn around and examine what we have done.
Think of the Earth as a pie. We have been eating the pie but attaching an ever inflating number, or value, on it. It's like buying a car, drive it, and then trying to sell it for more then we bought it for even thugh we have depreciated it's value. It only works as long as there is someone else foolish enough to buy it ( a pyramid scheme). I terms of the Earth and societies, it only works as long as there is enough physical "stuff" of tangible value to back the value of currency that is held. It is my premise that we are so far beyond this point that if everyone on Earth went to get something of actual value, raw materials, there would not be enough "stuff" even if we liquidated the entire Earth. Basically, if we pumped every drop of oil, cut every tree, mined every ore, there would not be enough to cover every dollar, Euro, Yuan, etc. The Earth would, in essence, default on us. Civilisation on a global scale, and not just a localised scale, would collapse.
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» RE: OK kiddies, gather around. It's time for a parity lesson.
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Nov 18, 2006 8:53 AM
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"The card companies are a cartel. . .They use the same techniques. There are people who see techniques, and the companies who use them, as evil. I don't personally like those terms. . . They are chasing revenue and AND THEY DON'T CARE HOW THEY GET IT [capitals mine]. They go over the top."
Excuse me, but if this isn't evil, it is one hell of a substitute.
The only difference between credit card companies and the Mafia is that c.c. companies don't break your legs if you don't pay up (yet). They don't have to; they now have the full weight of the federal government behind them.
So much for "Of the People, by the People, and for the People." "The People" need to realize this concept has died in America. How long can a society remain whole when it not only has to fight its businesses, but its own government as well? I'm afraid – very afraid – that we're going to find out.
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Posted by: AdamG on Nov 18, 2006 8:53 AM
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On the local, proactive scale, there is much that we can do. Number one, pay more for food. Food is the number one resource. 70% of the materials needed to run our economy derive from food as even labour, by extension, is food as we need to eat to work and procreate new workers. Either grow food yourself and buy it from someone you know. Help directly support people who interact directly with the environment in a way that ensures resource conservation and enhancement. We cannot continue to trust and depend on those who do not act in the best interest of the Earth or it's citizen's. As our institutions grow in size and scale, they become less and less knowable and therefore accountable. Who among us really can grasp a trillion, much less 100 trillion? Basically, if you can't wrap your mind around the scale and scope of an institution and your hands around the neck of those who administer it, NEITHER CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! WAKE UP PEOPLE, TAKE YOUR RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES BACK!
This whole Earth and it's natural processes depend upon us. Every moment we have is because of untold amounts of sacrifice. In a literal sense, this place loves us unconditionally. Stars die, releasing the elements of the air we breathe. Every breathe we take is because of a star's death affording us that opportunity. If we don't observe, acknowledge, and reciprocate that same level of sacrifice, we are doomed. There will come a point in our relationship with the Earth where it will no longer be able to accomodate us.
Please, stand together with all other citizen's of the Earth, hand in hand, hearts wide open. Do not take the gift we have been given for granted any longer. The world is patiently waiting.
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» RE: Solutions
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Solutions
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Solutions
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Solutions
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anothername on Nov 18, 2006 9:56 AM
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A Westerner was talking with a Muscovite in a Moscow bar. The Soviet kept praising the Communist system and the Westerner was trying to understand.
“So, if you had two houses, you would give me one?”
“Yes,” answered the Soviet.
“If you had two cars, you would give me one?”
“Yes.”
“If you had two shirts, you would give me one?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“Because I have two shirts.”
The updated version:
A candidate for office walks into a bar and meets up with several people of a Drinking Liberally group. The candidate could not believe the generosity of the liberals and kept asking questions.
“So, you have two houses and want to give me one?”
“Yes.”
“You have two cars and want to give me one?”
“Yes”
“You have two jobs and want to give me one?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“Because I need the two jobs to pay the loans on the first house and car.”
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» My wife is Russian...
Posted by: may261989
» RE: Here's my favorite
Posted by: Plexius
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Posted by: PeaceLove on Nov 18, 2006 10:28 AM
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Please don't pretend otherwise. The credit industry's predatory practices will only be acceptable for as long as people accept them. Open your eyes, call evil where you see it, and demand change from you elected representatives (good luck with that).
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» RE: vil: YES!
Posted by: MAD
» LMAO!
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Evil: YES!
Posted by: CB in MN
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mite on Nov 18, 2006 10:36 AM
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All I can add is; do we start changing it? Are we willing to march upon Washington D.C.? Are we willing to take the steps to help the people of District of Columbia to become represented like the rest of the states, with the same protections by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
The key to changing these acts of treason by these Bankers and Congress Persons is: Executive Order 11110 (Kennedy vs Feds) close down the Federal Reserve Bank-IRS and enforce Article I Sec: 8 (Congress Coins Money).
We need to stop using our credit (debt) behavior and force Congress to coin currency not debt.
watch: America- Freedom to Facism By Arron Russo
read: The Creature From Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin
www.givemeliberty.org
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» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: mite
» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: mite
» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 18, 2006 11:19 AM
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» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: richviss
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: b4upoo on Nov 18, 2006 11:26 AM
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It has reached the point that each person needs to understand how to manipulate the system and avoid debts while staying within the law. Sadly many people are unable to learn debt avoidance or payment avoidance. We see these types of people filing phony accident cases in the courts. They have learned to pay their debts by suing every few years.
Florida is a good state to live if you have debt problems. Debt enforcement in unlikely here. Any sum that is part of your home is protected as OJ Simpson well knows. One can own a multi-million dollar home in Florida without any fear at all. Also annuities can not be touched in Florida. So any money coming your way can be pumped into an annuity and you may use it when you wish. As they can't touch your home or your annuity they have no choice but to bargain with you over your debt. For example if you owe a credit card company $5,000 they may well be more than willing to accept $500. as payment in full once it becomes obvious that you are running the show.
Frankly those who are social rebels need to be in debt as part of a protest against an obviously wrong headed system. The trick is to learn to be in debt in such a way that you gain from it rather than lose your last dime.
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» RE: Debt Avoidance
Posted by: CB in MN
» RE: Debt Avoidance
Posted by: sapamm
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 18, 2006 11:38 AM
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» RE: Government wouldn't have it any other way
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Government wouldn't have it any other way
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: even(nik) on Nov 18, 2006 12:55 PM
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You might be interested in Major C.H Douglas' "social credit" economic theory, (the same thinking was good enough for Jesus when he threw the money lenders out of the temple)
"If Douglas's proposals were adopted, this monopoly right to create financial credit would be taken from the banks and vested in the State as representing the community. And the credit, which the State was thus empowered to create would be used — for what? — to enable goods to be sold at less than cost. It would thus be used to cancel the third item which, we have seen, goes to determine the minimum price, that is, the capital charges. In other words his proposals would have the effect of breaking up the huge masses of capital which have been accumulating since the beginning of the industrial era. There would thus be a destruction of capital accompanied by a new creation of purchase-money."
".. But few, if any, other authors have explained that as productivity increases year after year, who benefits from that increased productivity is determined essentially by money and banking policy. Specifically, Douglas explains (particularly in Part 2, Chapter 2) that, if the money supply is not increased, dollars/pounds become more valuable, such that prices drop. But, if the money supply is increased just enough, the value of each dollar/pound - hence prices - can be left unchanged. Finding it desirable to keep prices unchanged in this way, Douglas then explains that, essentially, a decision has to be made about who gets the additional dollars/pounds. Under our current fractional reserve system, the banks do, by creating and lending out extra credit. Under a "social credit" system, the extra dollars would be divided up and given to all citizens in equal portions as a "dividend". His rationale: that increases in productivity - resulting as they do from innovation and technological advancement over time - are a "cultural heritage" that belongs not to banks but to all members of society. His message is clear: the citizenry are prevented from benefitting from their own cultural heritage, and this leaves them increasingly indebted to banks, and unable to reduce, over time, the portion of their lives that they spend working and simply trying to survive. Under social credit, Douglas foresees a decrease in work and an increase in leisure or, at least, the opportunity to work less if one so chooses.."
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Posted by: MAD on Nov 18, 2006 1:21 PM
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"It must be the credit card companies. Yes that's it. The Federal Reserve is another problem. They flood the nation's banks with cheap liquidity who in turn pass it along to defenseless borrowers. It must be their fault. No, it's Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac - yeah, yeah they're the real problem."
These are all entertaining excuses but they fail to justify your enormous personal debts. Here's a thought:
Maybe it's "keeping up with the Joneses" or trading in your '04 Toyota because you're not a complete person unless you're driving the '07 model. How many American women max-out their credit cards in order to get a pair of 34 D's or lipo? I've known several American men who put $250 (each) tires on their Acuras, install tail-pipes that shoot fire out the rear and top it off with a stereo/DVD player; heaven forbid they actually pay attention to the road while driving! I see a society that idolizes vacuous people who buy diamond necklaces and Gucci bags for their poodles. I am dumbstruck each and every time I see one of those diamond commercials that shamelessly implies you're less than a real man if you don't spend 3 months salary on a fucking rock for your little precious! How many of you live in a house that you have absolutely no business financing? How many of you drive a Volvo on a 35K salary? How many of your friends rushed out and spent $600 on a PlayStation 3. How many of you shot someone to be the first to own one? LOL!
The worst part is that America has bought into the "conspicuous consumer school of personal improvement" doctrine hook, line and sinker! Stop blaming everyone else for your problems. Stop being ignorant sheep who do everything that Hollywood tells you to do. Oh, there's another one - Hollywood. Of course it must be their fault! Why don't you take some responsibility for yourselves? Nobody made you buy that 400K house and 65K car. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you put that Cancun vacation on your credit card. Spring breakers - I'm talking to you. The only possible justification you have for debt is paying for college but that still doesn't explain away your spending habits. Your decadent, sick culture is to blame and those many weak minds are a symptom.
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» RE: xcuses, Excuses . . .
Posted by: Scientz
» I drive a Volvo
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I drive a Volvo
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: xcuses, Excuses . . .
Posted by: jaby
» A little bit of perspective
Posted by: cmysticism
» RE: Amazed!!!!!!
Posted by: The Butcher
» RE: xcuses, Excuses . . .
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 18, 2006 2:03 PM
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» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: Mr. Heathen
» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: Kludin on Nov 18, 2006 2:29 PM
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You may or may not agree with the article's premise (of looming economic collapse in the US, triggered by the peaking of oil supplies), but the article has lots of excellent advice for young people starting to think about attending college and starting a career. It is already tough out there even if economic conditions don't worsen significantly.
I wish I had this kind of advice when I was starting out. Fortunately for me, after college I was able to pay off my debts and actually save some money (only possible because I still rent rather own a house, and stayed single until recently).
In spite of having a white collar job straight out of college, I put off buying a car - took the bus to work for the first year or so (sure people looked at me funny, but who cares...), and when I finally bought a car it was a tiny, used (7-year-old) Toyota. Even then I needed a small loan because I had zero savings - most of my money went towards paying down my credit card debt. Now almost 10 years later I can look back and breathe a sigh of relief. I still remember the sleepless nights and extreme anxiety due to being in debt.
I think young people in their teens and 20's have it a lot harder today - college tuition has skyrocketed, and housing and living costs are far outpacing any increase in wages. I doubt I'd make it through if I was entering college now.
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» RE: If you've come this far..
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
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Posted by: ssmit355 on Nov 18, 2006 3:49 PM
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I consider myself not-rich. Richness implies many things that y'all suggest, in your writings, hurt the world. In other words, to be Rich, I might need to participate in such things as environment degradation, stretching the gap betwixt the rich & poor, and plain old racist, sexist, classist, speciesist, assininism (a new word unknown by Webster). But who knows. (Really, who knows?...)
Although it took almost one year to prepare, yesterday I filed for bankruptcy. My wife and I will eliminate $50,000 in consumer credit by the year's end (if all goes as planned). We keep our condo mortgage and school loans (Sallie Mae got in bed with Uncle Sam, so her loans are unforgivable). What a relief. Shwew! But it took some delightful strategy; I cut back my hours at work over the last year, and my wife changed jobs (she reduced mid-year income dramatically). We pushed our income down by spending more time together, more time with friends, and more time wandering in beautiful mountains. Our income reduced, but our enjoyment of life improved.
Try it. Each state owns specific guidelines for bankruptcy: but in my experience all poor people qualify. The new bankruptcy laws make it tough for the Rich-Enough-To-Pretend-To-Be-Poor people. So if you don't qualify then you work too much for too little, or you might qualify as a whiner. Or I suppose you could be participating in the too-greedy complex that America soaks in, and by doing so, perhaps you lack in other ways that produce statistically appealing dollar signs for Giant Corporations of America. In any case, the upper income bracket for individuals and couples in my state are above the income-tax bracket for Poor. I'm not-rich, but I'm not-poor.
Here I guess I'm cryptic; let me be direct. Bankruptcy is easy for a couple making less than 45,000/year in Utah, especially if your debt is "unsecure, non-priority" status (like hospital bills or credit cards).
My weird guess about easy limits is that Congress is so out of touch that they lack concepts of what living under 30 or 40K is like, so they made it pretty easy for this level of bankruptcy (they tripled the cost--it cost me almost $2000 --it used to be $400-500). For those making Congress type wages, they made it tougher (so it seems to me, but I didn't really experience this) with loads of paperwork. If you know for real why Congress did this, tell me; a better reason will fuel my tales of bankruptcy with truth rather than speculations.
In our family's attempt to be more responsible we: 1) shift our burden of debt back on the credit card goliaths and hospital behemoths that attempted to hork our financial lives, and 2) we only use cash. I recommend a book called "Die Broke" for the not-rich financial savvy folks reading this. It's great strategies for living in today's corrupt, filthy economy of lying politics. And it feels real, it feels good, and it feels honest.
Relax. Chill out. Love those around you. Drop your house of credit cards. (What about my credit rating?!) There are some things I won't need anymore. (But credit ratings get back to normal, I've been told, in a mere 2-3 years with normal consumer spending habits.) So while my credit rating will not be great this year or next, my time, my integrity, and my life gets and is great.
PS There's a bucket of Religious Worms in the shame surrounding bankruptcy, but that's another story. And it's a fine challege for you and you and me to put our money (not credit) where our mouth is by speaking honestly and truly around people we know--not just here in cyberspace.
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» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: richviss
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: MAD
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: ssmit355
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: MAD
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: ssmit355
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: MAD
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: yellow
» Last one here
Posted by: ssmit355
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: jaby
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 18, 2006 5:33 PM
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Posted by: The Butcher on Nov 19, 2006 2:15 AM
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Discipline is the key. If you cannot reign in your spending, then you are a sucker.
I have been running $15000 Credit Card Limit with an Australian Bank for 22 years. I have only paid a few 100s in interests through my mistakes. When I told them it was a mistake and would cancel my account, they always paid back.
Why??? Banks make money with good customers like me. Not late payers.
Why would they hang up to me if not for over $1Mill going on my Credit at 1.5% they charge the people I work with?
If Financial Stupidity is the Currency! Then do not blame those who take advantage!
There is nothing wrong with living within your means.
But you need fiscal discipline to make them pay... And sometimes blackmail them.
Kids are easy picking for them and it is unethical.
Nothing wrong with each one of you teaching younfg people about the pitfalls.
Do not blame Banks. Fight them!Make them pay.
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 19, 2006 3:16 AM
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» Butt ugly homes destroying Canada
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Butt ugly homes destroying Canada
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: A few questions.
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: malaparte on Nov 19, 2006 4:28 AM
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Posted by: The Butcher on Nov 19, 2006 5:12 AM
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Undercut lending rates as I do.
Age as I do!!!!!!
But enjoy fucking the Banks at their own game when you have saved a family from starvation or bankrupcy!
You know what?
My failure rate is less than 30%
Poor people actually pay!
Write to me individually.
I will tell you of the work we do in Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia.
This is about saving children from starvation. I have no patience for our pampered youth who do not know how to pay for the latest i-pod!
francois@upnaway.com
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» RE: Do what I do
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: Bobsays on Nov 19, 2006 8:29 AM
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And here is the results of my experiment: it is possible and I am richer than I have ever been. So, how did I do it? I grew up poor and have always had to work, starting from a paper route to doing odd jobs for the neighbours. When I was old enough, I joined the army and served for a few years before going to university (which with my army pay and scholarship, left me with little debt).
In the meantime my mom was always living under a dark cloud of debt. She could never get out from it.
I have bohemian tastes. I love culture and nice food and travel. Hey, it's me. This self-awareness came early in my life and thus I put my thinking to how I could live this life.
I read loads on personal finance and saving and earning money. What I found was that there were basic principles out there that hold steady no matter what is happening with the economy. If you understand these principles, you will be able to make sound judgements on life's day-to-day battles.
I never ever borrowed money for cars, appliances etc. I always walked, rode a bike or took public transit. I always rented in the poorest flat in the nicest area (thus making it safe to come home late at night, and removing all the visual negativity that plagues your mind when you live in bad areas).
I made sure to put aside money in a tax-free, high interest account and to never stop saving. Over time, this has turned into a considerale pot of money that just keeps growing. With this financial cushion, I am then able to take risks like leave boring jobs or ones that have stopped being a positive experience, and to travel constantly. I run all my affairs like a business, controlling my diary and never ever doing what somebody else wants me to do. I only do win-win stuff. I am nobody's 'bitch'.
Now I look at my mom who has just retired with a mountain of debt. I am helping her, but I also learned that she was pursuing a different model of running her life than me. And it was a model where she was always a prisoner to the banks. I, on the other hand, have so much in savings that the banks treat me like some big investor and always bother me with their stupid schemes to get me to invest (which I turn down).
Some people think I am a 'freak' because I don't have all the outward trappings of middle class life. Yet they also are bitterly jealous: I am fitter than other people my age, I look younger, I travel to exotic places all the time, I always hang out with pretty and smart women, and an average week for me is a round of openings, free cultural events etc.
My advice to everyone else is this: totally ignore the idiot pressures people put on you, sit down and work out what really makes you happy, and then get rid of most of your debt and significantly boost your savings. Live like a modern minimalist. Tell your friends that is what you are, even if it sounds pretentious and strange. And live your life for you, not for the president and his friends.
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» Good For You
Posted by: patvic1405
» RE: Sounds workable.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: Liger
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: Liger
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 19, 2006 9:29 AM
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By Kevin Carmichael
Nov. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Robert E. Rubin, Treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton, and former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker said foreign investors probably won't keep increasing dollar holdings, raising the risk of a slump in the currency.
Failure by the U.S. government to shrink its budget deficit may spook the central banks, hedge funds and others who have been buying Treasury notes, Rubin said. Volcker said the U.S. borrowing requirements raise the risk of a ``crisis'' in the dollar as soon as the next two and a half years.
``It seems almost inconceivable that this will continue indefinitely,'' Rubin, who now chairs Citigroup Inc.'s executive committee, said in a videotaped message for a dinner hosted by the Concord Coalition yesterday in New York.
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Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 19, 2006 3:36 PM
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» RE: "Society doomed"?
Posted by: Liger
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 19, 2006 4:15 PM
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» RE: Not going to lie to these young people.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Not going to lie to these young people.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 19, 2006 6:16 PM
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That means the negative affect of default on mortgages has yet to be felt in the 30 former hot areas of the country. Twenty-five percent of mortgages carry adjustable rates, and more than 50% of those loans are sub-prime. People who put nothing down and should have never had a loan in the first place. Calls to the Homeownership Foundation are up over 25%, a record. More than 50% of the distressed callers have ARM loans. In 18 states more than 15% of homeowners with sub-prime ARMS were late on payments.
Foreclosures are like a funnel cloud; they tend to create their own downward spiral once they get started. The whole psychology of the market changes in a housing market down cycle. Fear now dominates the market. Demand falls because people expect prices to be less tomorrow than today. There is little urgency to buy. Making matters worse, lenders who have a large number of foreclosures on their books will try to recover whatever they can, often by under pricing the market. That further depresses retail prices; causing more and more sellers to have negative equity on a home they want to sell. This, in turn, causes more foreclosures, puts more pressure on the lenders to dump properties, and puts more downward pressure on prices. It is a vicious cycle that feeds on itself.
Who is to blame for this problem? The Fed via the lowest interest rates since the 1930s, endless money and credit and no control over loan qualifications. The banks, S&Ls and other lenders such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that threw lending caution to the winds and gave mortgages to anyone who could make his mark on a contract and lie about his income. Then in a class by themselves are the real estate agents. They created a financial death trap for one-third of all borrowers. Over the next 18 months more than $2 trillion of these loans will be re-priced and new monthly payments will be 25 to 100% higher. Most won’t be able to afford these higher payments and they will be forced into another exotic loan or go into default. If you do not have equity or cash to the equity you cannot refinance. Many will just walk away and that triggers debt relief. When a home is sold for less than is owed, it creates what is known as phantom income that the borrower must pay taxes on. That will create many bankruptcies. We can thank the Fed, banks and other lenders for this predicament. If you do not think this is serious, look at these numbers: 32.6% of new mortgages and home equity loans in 2005 were interest only, 43% of buyers put no money down, 15.2% of buyers owe at least 10% more than their homes are worth, 10% of all mortgage holders have no equity and that is growing in leaps and bounds. If we include 2006, 2007 and 2008, more than $2.7 trillion of mortgages will have to adjust to higher rates.
Over the next few years what can we expect? We can see a 40-60% adjustment in house prices in the former hot areas and those estimates are very conservative. In 1991 the REO was selling off real estate at a 70% to 90% discount. The bubble today is greater than at any time since the 1930s. Who gets hit worst? Los Angeles, of course, where only 2% of families can afford to buy the median priced home.
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» RE: Bob Chapman:housing will fall in value nationally
Posted by: vicki2001lynn
» Vicki, your'e more typical than you imagine
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: yellow on Nov 19, 2006 9:29 PM
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The main significance of debt in the US economy over the last two decades is that it has acted as a Keynesian style stimulous to our inherently stagnant economy. In 1970 total US public and private debt was one and a half times the US GDP and by 2005 three and one half times the GDP and very close to the global level of GDP which is about $44 trillion. Though total US debt had been a significant portion of US GDP for some time it had remained more or less stable until 1981, the year Reagan took office, when total US debt took a sharp upward swing from just under twice the US GDP to where it is today. The biggest change in the structure of US debt is the role of finance capital which in 1975 occupied just under 10% of all US debt to now with finance occupying 30% or the single largest portion of total US debt with household debt a very close second. This is not just indicative of the level of financialization of US capitalism but the extent to which productive activity has been replaced by speculation. These trends have also coincided with increased US trade and balance of payments deficits. Lacking a sustained stimulous to growth, the worsening distribution of wealth reduced internal production and demand and increase the importance of foreign capital inflows, equity and housing price bubbles, and consumer borrowing to stimulate demand and the economy. The current housing bubble, one of the longest in history, has allowed for mortgage refinancing loans which provide most of the recent stimulous to the GDP growth. With increased demand for housing, some of it speculative, this form of loan collateral increased in value and encouraged more borrowing and lending. This trend increased investment in private residential housing to 36% of all private investment in 2005, a proportion not seen since the suburbanization boom in the late 1950s.
The real problem is finding a profitable outlet for investment for capital. Debt has provided the best answer for big capital to sustain profitable outlets for investment of surplus capital in an epoch of chronic stagnation. Though risky, it is preferable for capitalists to either a massive redistribution of wealth or massive taxing and spending on public works programs as in the 1930s. This is because capitalists find financialization profitable. Consumer debt also increases work effort and hence productivity and overall profitability. Debtors can also be disciplined with draconian bankruptcy laws. Yet this strategy is full of contradictions which the next major crisis will manifest clearly.
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» RE: Debt and the Stagnation Tendencies of Late US Capitalism.
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 20, 2006 9:00 AM
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November 19, 2006
Despite the risks, borrowers are hardly shunning "exotic" loans that allow them to make minimal payments and that could leave them with more debt than they started with.
The Mortgage Bankers Assn. reports that about 26% of mortgage loan originations, by dollar volume, in the first six months of this year were interest-only.
Another 13% were so-called option adjustable-rate mortgages, which give borrowers a buffet of repayment options, including a minimum payment that doesn't cover the full interest or the principal.
Critics warn that the monthly bill could double or triple for unwary borrowers.
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» RE: 'Exotic' loans remain popular
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» RE: 'Exotic' loans remain popular
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» RE: 'Exotic' loans remain popular
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Posted by: cinattra on Nov 20, 2006 9:46 AM
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We buy too much house or too much car for our income. We eat out instead of eating in. We have enough clothes in the closet but still we have to go to the sale and buy something because it is after all a sale and who wants to miss out on a good deal.
The poor execution of personal responsibility.
Cereal, ramen noodles and condensed soup was my college menu and the occassional can of chili when I did well on a test or paper. No mini-frig, no computer or t.v. either.
I only got in debt for the car I bought because I was required to go to an internship that I could not get to any other way. Having such poor credit as I did I ended up spending twice as much as the car cost because of the interest rate.
That car ended up saving my butt financially twice because I was in two accidents in that car and instead of getting the damage fixed I put the money in my bank account to help pay other bills.
Now I'm in the middle of a career change. I'm preparing myself for a lower paying job by downsizing the apartment we live in now to save more money. We want a second car but we're holding that off as long as possible depending on where we end up moving.
We're also putting off having our second child until the oldest is in school so we will have only one child in daycare at one time and my wife can begin her schooling.
The only debt I have are student loans because the credit cards are paid off after use.
You have to have a plan and you have to have some personal discipline about how you spend your money and you have to hope for perfect health.
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» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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Posted by: DaBear on Nov 20, 2006 12:11 PM
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Schechter: Its possible to spend less, but difficult because we're living in a time when its very hard to avoid rising prices. Young kids have to have the latest things. Business are charging more for something we used to get for less. We live in a culture where consumption is stimulated. It's hard to ignore.
Right here, in a piece focusing on the "young" debt is framed as an unecessary choice made by the inexperienced (at best) or foolish (at worst). The reality in the U.S. is that if you need to work at ANY job you must have the technological hardware and spoftware AT HOME because the demand by employers is that you work up to 20 hours per week on your own time after you've given your 60 hours per week in-house at the office/studio, etc. That's REALITY, not some frivolous choice. Most working people are underpaid and are forced to live far away from work because there is a serious lack of legitimated fast, efficient, accessible transit and housing prices in urban centers are more expensive than surburban and ex-urban rural areas. Most cable companies bundle their full load of entertainment with high speed internet so if you need the high speed net, you have to get all the other shit that "grownups" then turn around and castigate the young for their luxury entertainment. If you want a safe and efficient car you'll have to pay up to 60% over the ave. price of the ave. car that definitely doesn't have any safety features let alone the discounts on auto insurance.
Until Americans, progressives too, stop framing debt as the frivolity of the young and start owning up to the reality of a system THE ELDERS helped impose on the young, no amount of debt will ever be diminished. Rob Roy wrote a book called mortgage free abck in the 1980's and 90's... all those principles he touted are now specialized programs reserved for those with high credit scores and come for exhorbitant fees. The wsidom of the elder classes is complete nonsense for the realities of today's GenXers (35-43 year olds--who have kids on top of all this debt crap--and we don't spoil our kids with all the commercialized bullshit the elders are selling) and young people.
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» I agree the system is a bitch
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» RE: I agree the system is a bitch
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» RE: I agree the system is a bitch
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Posted by: Ayla87 on Nov 22, 2006 7:28 AM
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Nov 22, 2006 1:37 PM
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They aren't feeling the pain of the attack on their own employees and therefore their own consumer base.
It can't continue forever, clearly, and one day people will have to stop buying as much. The corporations will likely react by trying to cut costs to maintain their profits rather than increasing wages which is what is really needed, and the whole situation will escalate into a collapse.
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Posted by: anambrose on Nov 23, 2006 10:50 PM
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» RE: Old Borrowers Just have Debt
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Posted by: otto on Nov 25, 2006 6:42 AM
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 25, 2006 8:32 PM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 18, 2006 12:33 AM
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» RE: richest
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» Apples and oranges
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» RE: ENOUGH!!!!!!
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» RE: NOUGH!!!!!!
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Posted by: anothername on Nov 18, 2006 3:45 AM
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With obesity, discussion almost never turns to the reality that Americans have reduced their walking time due to growing dangers caused by increased automotive traffic and reduced presence of sidewalks or to the very low cost of subsidized corn production and the higher price of subsidized sugar. The problem lies just with the wanton selfishness of Americans and the greedy corporations that package empty calories. With debt, discussion almost never turns to the reasons why it has increased beyond selfish consumerism and the buy-now mentality of Americans.
Government tells us to buy houses and gives incentives to developers and purchasers towards this goal. Apartment buildings are built in the least attractive parts of communities or are so filled with amenities that the costs increase. Then, just to find an apartment includes growing application fees, higher property tax rates passed on to the renter, and other costs and delays. In my case, as I used to move frequently, I found myself increasingly having to spend more money on longer hotel stays because I couldn't quickly move into decent apartments. This creates an economic drain that sooner or later ends up on credit cards or in other high-interest rate loans.
As minimum wage languished for 10 years, executives, managers, and people with well-paying jobs spent more and more on housing and pushed the Internet to a bandwidth-heavy functionality. Thus, the people in the lower half of income brackets were forced to pay more for housing as prices were bid up and were forced to spend more on DSL or an equivalent system just to deal with flashing media, flowing graphics, and other add-ons that have already created an Internet that is not neutral. Then there is the reduction of public transit service across the nation that has forced more people into personal automobiles at much higher direct and indirect costs.
Yes, the credit card companies and other businesses are taking advantage of the situation and making it worse. I figuratively yell, and strongly comment literally, to the companies whose credit cards I use for personal and business expenses that I would much rather have a lower interest rate than to see my hard-earned money wasted on incentive programs. Heck, just by eliminating what the companies spend in salaries to the executives and workers who develop these programs and the printing and mailing costs for all the junk, the interest rates on the cards could probably be reduced by 2%-3% easily.
This doesn't even take into account the cost of landfills, waste hauling, pollution from production, cost of gasoline and pollution to move all the material items around. It doesn't discuss how unions helped create a more even income distribution so one group wasn't pricing the other out of the marketplace and putting each other into heavy debt. It doesn't look at the history of company towns where workers could never get out of debt.
Yes, debt can be both good and bad. It provides for managed risks. Yet, we also have to look beyond the issue of debt to how money is distributed in the U.S., including the investment capital. The recent IPO of Hertz, where a group of investors had bought the company, drained resources, then offered it for sale with the IPO earnings going to the investors who walked away with easy millions and relatively little of the raised funds going to the operation, capitalization, or expansion of the business. All that money in the stock market is making a few people very happy.
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 18, 2006 4:19 AM
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Working folks living from paycheck to paycheck have a much higher cost of living than the wealthy. Few seem to notice...but I guess they're not supposed to notice.
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» RE: Being poor is very expensive
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Nov 18, 2006 6:01 AM
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» RE: System is a lie
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» RE: System is a lie
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» Fed = money laundering
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Posted by: derfb1 on Nov 18, 2006 6:47 AM
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» Derfian Logic Trumps Spock Everytime
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» Thanks, REPUBLICANS, for the Income Tax and the IRS
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» FDR, Parity, Carl Wilkin, and the Depression
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Posted by: MAT on Nov 18, 2006 6:49 AM
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Let's face it, we're animals, mammals to be exact. We hunt, we gather, we seek out the resources to survive and thrive. We utilize the strengths of groups to control territory and defend our resources and ourselves. Typically, alpha males, being the loudest, strongest, most aggressive and most cunning get the spoils of overseeing the whole operation.
However, it is our intellect, our ability to reason and create which differentiates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. We are at the point where we have devised many clever constructs beyond sheer brute force, albeit an arguable assertion, so that the alpha male can remain on top.
The good news is that we are moving in the right direction. These days, the alpha female can get hers, even the alpha black/hispanic man can get in on the game and you can even cash in outside of western 'rich' nations and so on. Heck, just about anyone who is aggressive/clever/unscrupulous enough can lead their own pack and even subjugate others more efficiently. Did I say good news? I meant encouraging news...at least now we can start to see that this 'alpha syndrome' is an inherent component owned by all of humanity.
Now the question is, how do we get this thing under grips and start to utilize our human ingenuity and (ultimately) our instinct to survive, in a much more sustainable and effective fashion rather than the pure pursuit of selfish spoils?
Sure we can tackle and solve our debt and many other problems but based on what motivations? Our motivations for solving problems are typically based on our natural survival instincts in conjunction with personal desires. It seems to be a logical conclusion that if we can do a better job of accepting and regulating the excess of our instinctual vices while influencing our personal desires via education, we might just have a decent shot at working something reasonable out. Think of it as nature working with nurture as opposed to versus.
We need to be honest and upfront in assessing who we are, what our true desires/needs are and start to re-engineer our political/social/economic constructs using human ingenuity to overcome excessive human aggressiveness.
Towards the end of the article the author makes a very good point that one of the first steps in any recovery program are awareness and acceptance of the problem. Right now, that goal is being made more difficult because the powerful industries behind the problem are pushing harder to perpetuate it.
That’s why it’s up to us, “We The People” to take effective action and guide the process; we’re very effective en-masse. The real good news is that We, for the first time in the history of mankind, are able to effectively work together in this internet ‘age of acceleration’.
For my part, I see that I have a few more ideas to materialize in the next serveral days; I invite you to join me in the effort to spread awareness of this and many other issues. It’s time the ‘alpha people’ realize that it's Our America Too.
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» Whaddya Mean "We", Kemosaabe?
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» a better way to start a cult
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 18, 2006 7:15 AM
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There's not much evidence to support that claim. The Congress under Republican rule has taken the side of the credit card and finance companies against the public every time. It'll be interesting to see if the Democratic Congress is any different (Bush would surely veto any legislation).
Bush Donors Reap Big Dividends from Taxpayers; At least 200 of Bush's "Pioneers" and "Rangers" have reaped financial benefit
The basic fact is that credit cards and loans are generally very, very bad ideas. Loans for starting a business or building a house might be one exception, depending on the structure of the loans. Eventually, the whole country is going to go bankrupt, thanks to Republican policies - why do you think Cheney keeps a good fraction of his ~100 million fortune in euros?
Milton Friedman just passed away - one of the founders of Monetarism (control of the monentary supply) economics and a product of John D.Rockefeller's University of Chicago, as well as a recipient of the tacked-on "Nobel Prize in Economics". Economics is often little more than an attempt to provide a scientific basis for massive wealth disparities, as a replacement for the old religious explanation of divine providence and will.
Much of "Modern economic theory" is just tripe aimed at justifying the current wealth distribution in Western societies. It's noblesse oblige - the wise and wealthy nobility has a responsibility to care for the economic well-being of the unwashed masses. In reality, it's those very masses that are footing the bill for royalty - nothing much has changed.
In particular, the notion that the poorer classes should have to bury themselves in debt to get a decent college education and make a living is ridiculous. It guarantees ten or twenty years of payments to the banks that hold the federal loans. Credit cards are traps for the foolish and unwary, but how else is someone from inner-city or rural America going to get an education at our expensive 'public' universities?
Current debt laws in the USA are just part of a system aimed at keeping poor people poor and transferring what little assets they may possess to the credit and finance corporations. There are no real benefits of cheap credit. American's don't get to 'live their dreams'; they're suckered into deceitful financial arrangements that keep them as captive servants for decades.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 18, 2006 7:17 AM
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Posted by: edhowes on Nov 18, 2006 7:21 AM
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Irresponsibility and unaccountability goes hand in hand with corruption and greed in high places. The result is a burgeoning lawlessness and economic free for alls. Nothing matters beyond escaping blame. It is all someone else's fault and I am just along for the ride. The people who have the solutions speak to a deaf and blind public, or the choir but they do not talk to each other about the effective applications of solutions to the problems. Their answer is invariably to create mass movements which will never happen. Knowing this deep down, the aware are also blameless. Nobody is listening, what are they supposed to do?
You don't get rid of the Federal Reserve when all workers are tithing 15% of their weekly pay to its support and operation. The people who rule the world are totally unconcerned with any citizen protest unless it becomes popular. Since the masters of the universe can come on their media and give the public irresistable new and better ideas, they nip all movements in the bud.
With the U.S. dollar losing about 8% of its face value each year, no matter what the official inflation numbers, the borrower does much better than the saver, unless that saver is buying gold or silver. Very few do. So credit becomes the poor man's hedge. The longer he can take paying off even high interest debt, the less the credit is costing.
What we all need is government credit. Increase the limit every year, continue the borrowing every year, pay a fixed 5% on the principal and only pay the interest. That individuals do not get such favorable terms is no surprise. Individuals have no bargaining power with central banks. Once the people have formed a habit of supporting the global rule of corporate bankers, they will only break the habit when it is forced upon them by unemployment and they are no longer too busy playing the game to think about the alternatives. This depression will be the real wake up call. The 911 event was only a snooze alarm.
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 18, 2006 7:31 AM
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Here's an example of how Congress and the President have worked together to make sure Americans stay in debt and keep making their payments:
"Credit-card giant MBNA wanted to collect more of its customers' debts.
The Delaware-based company has supplied 54 million Americans with novelty credit cards displaying Elvis Presley, a charging Florida State University Seminole on horseback, or an Icelandair flight cruising above the Atlantic Ocean.
The seduction by plastic includes bonus points, "Love Me Tender" teddy bears, and occasionally personal bankruptcy.
When MBNA's customers filed Chapter 7 bankruptcy, courts wiped their credit balances away. MBNA wrote off $4.1 billion in unpaid credit-card bills last year.
To stem the losses, the company worked to change the rules. It spent nearly $20 million from 1998 to 2004 to lobby Congress on issues including bankruptcy reform. Even before Mr. Clinton killed a reform bill late in his second term, MBNA had turned to George W. Bush.
MBNA employees gave the Bush campaign more than $200,000 in 2000, the most of any company, and allowed the campaign to use an MBNA corporate jet. The new president pushed bankruptcy reform in his first term, but an unrelated congressional dispute scuttled it.
The company worked hard for Mr. Bush again last year. Former MBNA CEO Charles Cawley and Vice Chairman Lance Loring Weaver both qualified as Rangers, each raising at least $200,000 for the President's re-election.
MBNA surpassed Enron last year to become the largest corporate patron of Mr. Bush's career, according to the Center for Responsive Politics in Washington.
The eight-year struggle for bankruptcy reform ended within 90 days of Mr. Bush's second inaugural address. The 500-page law, initially crafted by a financial services lobbyist, mandates credit counseling for prospective filers and makes it harder to escape credit-card debt.
"The legislation in effect deputizes the bankruptcy courts as collection agents for the credit-card companies," said Mark Sargent, dean of Villanova University's law school, a bankruptcy expert, and critic of the bill. "The great irony of this is that it's having your cake and eating it too. They push credit to anyone with a pulse."
Americans received 5.23 billion credit-card mailings - 18 offers for each man, woman, and child - in 2004, according to Vertis, a marketing consultant. About 1.6 million households filed for bankruptcy last year, according to the American Bankruptcy Institute, up from 287,570 in 1980.
The reform law's implementation in October caused a temporary spike in bankruptcy filings that will hurt MBNA's short-term profits but should reduce future bankruptcy filings, the company said in its quarterly filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Todd Zywicki, a George Mason University law professor who favors the law, testified to a Senate committee that credit-card companies would receive an additional $3 billion each year with its passage.
Based on the market share figures compiled by the industry analyst Web site cardweb.com, the law will give MBNA about $380 million more annually. That figure would feed the company's yearly profit of $2.6 billion.
In June, after the law passed, Bank of America agreed to purchase MBNA for $35 billion, 31 percent above the company's market value at the time. An analyst called the sale price "rich."..."
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» You don't even need a pulse
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Posted by: profmarcus on Nov 18, 2006 8:11 AM
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first of all, it ain't just young people fresh out of school, although i am watching my 23 year-old daughter struggling with all the above... my son and his wife, in their mid-30s, both holding good jobs with a very respectable combined income, are carrying a debt burden that i find positively staggering, and probably won't see daylight for at least 30 more years...
look, let's get really, really real... it "almost seems to function like a conspiracy" because that's exactly what it is... if you're burdened by huge debt, what other choice do you have but to keep working to pay it off, supporting the same system that put you in that dilemma in the first place... this article's author, however, seems to reveal the depth of his own "consumer society" brainwashing, because he just can't resist extolling the virtues of materialism...
now that i'm spending the majority of my time living outside the u.s., i am stupefied at how big the trade-off of getting to "live their dreams" is for americans... while it's true that having the latest gadget is an obsession the world over, there is nowhere that is more true than in the united states... constantly, everywhere i go here, people are rushing madly about in search of the latest "thing" guaranteed to make them happy... it's impossible to avoid because those "things" are constantly in your face, everywhere, all the time... coming in from south america, three hours after landing, i am with my daughter-in-law and her mother in a hospital gift shop to rival any large store in a shopping mall... oh, it's a conspiracy, all right... don't think for one minute that it isn't...
And, yes, I DO take it personally
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» What other choice?
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» RE: What other choice?
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» Hear, hear!
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Posted by: AdamG on Nov 18, 2006 8:29 AM
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Ideally, we as a society, would interact with the environment in a way that conserves resources, at minimum, and enhances them to ensure their supply in the future. As human societies developed, less and less people directly interacted with the environment directly in order to process raw materials procurred by others in order to manufacture more complex tools. Eventually, as people developed agriculture and surplus food, societies were enabled to not only manufacture goods and tools but institutions. This required a mechanism to encourage those that interact with the environment to procur more then they, and society as a whole, need to meet their immediate needs. That mechanism is debt.
No longer did people get only what they need. This was initially possible only because of the abundance of resources. In essence, the Earth and all it's resources are capital. Ideally, we would live off the interest created by the interaction of the Earth and Sun. Instead, we have drawing from the capital of the Earth. This liquidation of the "capital" enabled the human population explosion that started 10,000 years ago.
This worked until societies depleted the natural capital of a locality of an area to the point of ecological bankruptcy. This is now evident in the deserts of the Arabian Peninsula, the Shara, the Sahel, and most other wind swept sand dunes. Very few deserts are natural with a few exceptions (the Atacama Desert is one). This fueled the migration and conquest into new areas. This also fueled ever more complex institutions of debt.
As civilsation marched into nearly every corner of the world another mechanism was developed to enable global conquest. That was the undervaluation of natural resources. There were always new abundant areas to exploit so raw materials were valued in such a way as to not encourage their conservation as there was always somewhere else to get them cheaper.
We have nearly migrated into and conquered most areas of the planet. We have overexploited nearly ever resource to the extent as to affect their perpetuation. We have also constructed one of the most sophisticated system of institutionalized debt ever seen. Quite literally, we have run into a wall. It is time to turn around and examine what we have done.
Think of the Earth as a pie. We have been eating the pie but attaching an ever inflating number, or value, on it. It's like buying a car, drive it, and then trying to sell it for more then we bought it for even thugh we have depreciated it's value. It only works as long as there is someone else foolish enough to buy it ( a pyramid scheme). I terms of the Earth and societies, it only works as long as there is enough physical "stuff" of tangible value to back the value of currency that is held. It is my premise that we are so far beyond this point that if everyone on Earth went to get something of actual value, raw materials, there would not be enough "stuff" even if we liquidated the entire Earth. Basically, if we pumped every drop of oil, cut every tree, mined every ore, there would not be enough to cover every dollar, Euro, Yuan, etc. The Earth would, in essence, default on us. Civilisation on a global scale, and not just a localised scale, would collapse.
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» RE: OK kiddies, gather around. It's time for a parity lesson.
Posted by: tdicks
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Nov 18, 2006 8:53 AM
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"The card companies are a cartel. . .They use the same techniques. There are people who see techniques, and the companies who use them, as evil. I don't personally like those terms. . . They are chasing revenue and AND THEY DON'T CARE HOW THEY GET IT [capitals mine]. They go over the top."
Excuse me, but if this isn't evil, it is one hell of a substitute.
The only difference between credit card companies and the Mafia is that c.c. companies don't break your legs if you don't pay up (yet). They don't have to; they now have the full weight of the federal government behind them.
So much for "Of the People, by the People, and for the People." "The People" need to realize this concept has died in America. How long can a society remain whole when it not only has to fight its businesses, but its own government as well? I'm afraid – very afraid – that we're going to find out.
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Posted by: AdamG on Nov 18, 2006 8:53 AM
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On the local, proactive scale, there is much that we can do. Number one, pay more for food. Food is the number one resource. 70% of the materials needed to run our economy derive from food as even labour, by extension, is food as we need to eat to work and procreate new workers. Either grow food yourself and buy it from someone you know. Help directly support people who interact directly with the environment in a way that ensures resource conservation and enhancement. We cannot continue to trust and depend on those who do not act in the best interest of the Earth or it's citizen's. As our institutions grow in size and scale, they become less and less knowable and therefore accountable. Who among us really can grasp a trillion, much less 100 trillion? Basically, if you can't wrap your mind around the scale and scope of an institution and your hands around the neck of those who administer it, NEITHER CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! WAKE UP PEOPLE, TAKE YOUR RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES BACK!
This whole Earth and it's natural processes depend upon us. Every moment we have is because of untold amounts of sacrifice. In a literal sense, this place loves us unconditionally. Stars die, releasing the elements of the air we breathe. Every breathe we take is because of a star's death affording us that opportunity. If we don't observe, acknowledge, and reciprocate that same level of sacrifice, we are doomed. There will come a point in our relationship with the Earth where it will no longer be able to accomodate us.
Please, stand together with all other citizen's of the Earth, hand in hand, hearts wide open. Do not take the gift we have been given for granted any longer. The world is patiently waiting.
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» RE: Solutions
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Solutions
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Solutions
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Solutions
Posted by: JSquercia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anothername on Nov 18, 2006 9:56 AM
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A Westerner was talking with a Muscovite in a Moscow bar. The Soviet kept praising the Communist system and the Westerner was trying to understand.
“So, if you had two houses, you would give me one?”
“Yes,” answered the Soviet.
“If you had two cars, you would give me one?”
“Yes.”
“If you had two shirts, you would give me one?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“Because I have two shirts.”
The updated version:
A candidate for office walks into a bar and meets up with several people of a Drinking Liberally group. The candidate could not believe the generosity of the liberals and kept asking questions.
“So, you have two houses and want to give me one?”
“Yes.”
“You have two cars and want to give me one?”
“Yes”
“You have two jobs and want to give me one?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“Because I need the two jobs to pay the loans on the first house and car.”
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» My wife is Russian...
Posted by: may261989
» RE: Here's my favorite
Posted by: Plexius
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Posted by: PeaceLove on Nov 18, 2006 10:28 AM
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Please don't pretend otherwise. The credit industry's predatory practices will only be acceptable for as long as people accept them. Open your eyes, call evil where you see it, and demand change from you elected representatives (good luck with that).
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» RE: vil: YES!
Posted by: MAD
» LMAO!
Posted by: Scientz
» RE: Evil: YES!
Posted by: CB in MN
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Posted by: mite on Nov 18, 2006 10:36 AM
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All I can add is; do we start changing it? Are we willing to march upon Washington D.C.? Are we willing to take the steps to help the people of District of Columbia to become represented like the rest of the states, with the same protections by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
The key to changing these acts of treason by these Bankers and Congress Persons is: Executive Order 11110 (Kennedy vs Feds) close down the Federal Reserve Bank-IRS and enforce Article I Sec: 8 (Congress Coins Money).
We need to stop using our credit (debt) behavior and force Congress to coin currency not debt.
watch: America- Freedom to Facism By Arron Russo
read: The Creature From Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin
www.givemeliberty.org
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» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: mite
» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: mite
» RE: Illuminati
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 18, 2006 11:19 AM
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» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Daniel Shays
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: AdamG
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: richviss
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Socialism?
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: b4upoo on Nov 18, 2006 11:26 AM
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It has reached the point that each person needs to understand how to manipulate the system and avoid debts while staying within the law. Sadly many people are unable to learn debt avoidance or payment avoidance. We see these types of people filing phony accident cases in the courts. They have learned to pay their debts by suing every few years.
Florida is a good state to live if you have debt problems. Debt enforcement in unlikely here. Any sum that is part of your home is protected as OJ Simpson well knows. One can own a multi-million dollar home in Florida without any fear at all. Also annuities can not be touched in Florida. So any money coming your way can be pumped into an annuity and you may use it when you wish. As they can't touch your home or your annuity they have no choice but to bargain with you over your debt. For example if you owe a credit card company $5,000 they may well be more than willing to accept $500. as payment in full once it becomes obvious that you are running the show.
Frankly those who are social rebels need to be in debt as part of a protest against an obviously wrong headed system. The trick is to learn to be in debt in such a way that you gain from it rather than lose your last dime.
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» RE: Debt Avoidance
Posted by: CB in MN
» RE: Debt Avoidance
Posted by: sapamm
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 18, 2006 11:38 AM
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» RE: Government wouldn't have it any other way
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Government wouldn't have it any other way
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: even(nik) on Nov 18, 2006 12:55 PM
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You might be interested in Major C.H Douglas' "social credit" economic theory, (the same thinking was good enough for Jesus when he threw the money lenders out of the temple)
"If Douglas's proposals were adopted, this monopoly right to create financial credit would be taken from the banks and vested in the State as representing the community. And the credit, which the State was thus empowered to create would be used — for what? — to enable goods to be sold at less than cost. It would thus be used to cancel the third item which, we have seen, goes to determine the minimum price, that is, the capital charges. In other words his proposals would have the effect of breaking up the huge masses of capital which have been accumulating since the beginning of the industrial era. There would thus be a destruction of capital accompanied by a new creation of purchase-money."
".. But few, if any, other authors have explained that as productivity increases year after year, who benefits from that increased productivity is determined essentially by money and banking policy. Specifically, Douglas explains (particularly in Part 2, Chapter 2) that, if the money supply is not increased, dollars/pounds become more valuable, such that prices drop. But, if the money supply is increased just enough, the value of each dollar/pound - hence prices - can be left unchanged. Finding it desirable to keep prices unchanged in this way, Douglas then explains that, essentially, a decision has to be made about who gets the additional dollars/pounds. Under our current fractional reserve system, the banks do, by creating and lending out extra credit. Under a "social credit" system, the extra dollars would be divided up and given to all citizens in equal portions as a "dividend". His rationale: that increases in productivity - resulting as they do from innovation and technological advancement over time - are a "cultural heritage" that belongs not to banks but to all members of society. His message is clear: the citizenry are prevented from benefitting from their own cultural heritage, and this leaves them increasingly indebted to banks, and unable to reduce, over time, the portion of their lives that they spend working and simply trying to survive. Under social credit, Douglas foresees a decrease in work and an increase in leisure or, at least, the opportunity to work less if one so chooses.."
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Posted by: MAD on Nov 18, 2006 1:21 PM
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"It must be the credit card companies. Yes that's it. The Federal Reserve is another problem. They flood the nation's banks with cheap liquidity who in turn pass it along to defenseless borrowers. It must be their fault. No, it's Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac - yeah, yeah they're the real problem."
These are all entertaining excuses but they fail to justify your enormous personal debts. Here's a thought:
Maybe it's "keeping up with the Joneses" or trading in your '04 Toyota because you're not a complete person unless you're driving the '07 model. How many American women max-out their credit cards in order to get a pair of 34 D's or lipo? I've known several American men who put $250 (each) tires on their Acuras, install tail-pipes that shoot fire out the rear and top it off with a stereo/DVD player; heaven forbid they actually pay attention to the road while driving! I see a society that idolizes vacuous people who buy diamond necklaces and Gucci bags for their poodles. I am dumbstruck each and every time I see one of those diamond commercials that shamelessly implies you're less than a real man if you don't spend 3 months salary on a fucking rock for your little precious! How many of you live in a house that you have absolutely no business financing? How many of you drive a Volvo on a 35K salary? How many of your friends rushed out and spent $600 on a PlayStation 3. How many of you shot someone to be the first to own one? LOL!
The worst part is that America has bought into the "conspicuous consumer school of personal improvement" doctrine hook, line and sinker! Stop blaming everyone else for your problems. Stop being ignorant sheep who do everything that Hollywood tells you to do. Oh, there's another one - Hollywood. Of course it must be their fault! Why don't you take some responsibility for yourselves? Nobody made you buy that 400K house and 65K car. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you put that Cancun vacation on your credit card. Spring breakers - I'm talking to you. The only possible justification you have for debt is paying for college but that still doesn't explain away your spending habits. Your decadent, sick culture is to blame and those many weak minds are a symptom.
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» RE: xcuses, Excuses . . .
Posted by: Scientz
» I drive a Volvo
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I drive a Volvo
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: xcuses, Excuses . . .
Posted by: jaby
» A little bit of perspective
Posted by: cmysticism
» RE: Amazed!!!!!!
Posted by: The Butcher
» RE: xcuses, Excuses . . .
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 18, 2006 2:03 PM
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» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: Mr. Heathen
» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Medical Expenses Also
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: Kludin on Nov 18, 2006 2:29 PM
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You may or may not agree with the article's premise (of looming economic collapse in the US, triggered by the peaking of oil supplies), but the article has lots of excellent advice for young people starting to think about attending college and starting a career. It is already tough out there even if economic conditions don't worsen significantly.
I wish I had this kind of advice when I was starting out. Fortunately for me, after college I was able to pay off my debts and actually save some money (only possible because I still rent rather own a house, and stayed single until recently).
In spite of having a white collar job straight out of college, I put off buying a car - took the bus to work for the first year or so (sure people looked at me funny, but who cares...), and when I finally bought a car it was a tiny, used (7-year-old) Toyota. Even then I needed a small loan because I had zero savings - most of my money went towards paying down my credit card debt. Now almost 10 years later I can look back and breathe a sigh of relief. I still remember the sleepless nights and extreme anxiety due to being in debt.
I think young people in their teens and 20's have it a lot harder today - college tuition has skyrocketed, and housing and living costs are far outpacing any increase in wages. I doubt I'd make it through if I was entering college now.
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» RE: If you've come this far..
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
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Posted by: ssmit355 on Nov 18, 2006 3:49 PM
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I consider myself not-rich. Richness implies many things that y'all suggest, in your writings, hurt the world. In other words, to be Rich, I might need to participate in such things as environment degradation, stretching the gap betwixt the rich & poor, and plain old racist, sexist, classist, speciesist, assininism (a new word unknown by Webster). But who knows. (Really, who knows?...)
Although it took almost one year to prepare, yesterday I filed for bankruptcy. My wife and I will eliminate $50,000 in consumer credit by the year's end (if all goes as planned). We keep our condo mortgage and school loans (Sallie Mae got in bed with Uncle Sam, so her loans are unforgivable). What a relief. Shwew! But it took some delightful strategy; I cut back my hours at work over the last year, and my wife changed jobs (she reduced mid-year income dramatically). We pushed our income down by spending more time together, more time with friends, and more time wandering in beautiful mountains. Our income reduced, but our enjoyment of life improved.
Try it. Each state owns specific guidelines for bankruptcy: but in my experience all poor people qualify. The new bankruptcy laws make it tough for the Rich-Enough-To-Pretend-To-Be-Poor people. So if you don't qualify then you work too much for too little, or you might qualify as a whiner. Or I suppose you could be participating in the too-greedy complex that America soaks in, and by doing so, perhaps you lack in other ways that produce statistically appealing dollar signs for Giant Corporations of America. In any case, the upper income bracket for individuals and couples in my state are above the income-tax bracket for Poor. I'm not-rich, but I'm not-poor.
Here I guess I'm cryptic; let me be direct. Bankruptcy is easy for a couple making less than 45,000/year in Utah, especially if your debt is "unsecure, non-priority" status (like hospital bills or credit cards).
My weird guess about easy limits is that Congress is so out of touch that they lack concepts of what living under 30 or 40K is like, so they made it pretty easy for this level of bankruptcy (they tripled the cost--it cost me almost $2000 --it used to be $400-500). For those making Congress type wages, they made it tougher (so it seems to me, but I didn't really experience this) with loads of paperwork. If you know for real why Congress did this, tell me; a better reason will fuel my tales of bankruptcy with truth rather than speculations.
In our family's attempt to be more responsible we: 1) shift our burden of debt back on the credit card goliaths and hospital behemoths that attempted to hork our financial lives, and 2) we only use cash. I recommend a book called "Die Broke" for the not-rich financial savvy folks reading this. It's great strategies for living in today's corrupt, filthy economy of lying politics. And it feels real, it feels good, and it feels honest.
Relax. Chill out. Love those around you. Drop your house of credit cards. (What about my credit rating?!) There are some things I won't need anymore. (But credit ratings get back to normal, I've been told, in a mere 2-3 years with normal consumer spending habits.) So while my credit rating will not be great this year or next, my time, my integrity, and my life gets and is great.
PS There's a bucket of Religious Worms in the shame surrounding bankruptcy, but that's another story. And it's a fine challege for you and you and me to put our money (not credit) where our mouth is by speaking honestly and truly around people we know--not just here in cyberspace.
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» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: richviss
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: MAD
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: ssmit355
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: MAD
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: ssmit355
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: MAD
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: yellow
» Last one here
Posted by: ssmit355
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: Landbaron
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: jaby
» RE: nding Debt
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 18, 2006 5:33 PM
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Posted by: The Butcher on Nov 19, 2006 2:15 AM
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Discipline is the key. If you cannot reign in your spending, then you are a sucker.
I have been running $15000 Credit Card Limit with an Australian Bank for 22 years. I have only paid a few 100s in interests through my mistakes. When I told them it was a mistake and would cancel my account, they always paid back.
Why??? Banks make money with good customers like me. Not late payers.
Why would they hang up to me if not for over $1Mill going on my Credit at 1.5% they charge the people I work with?
If Financial Stupidity is the Currency! Then do not blame those who take advantage!
There is nothing wrong with living within your means.
But you need fiscal discipline to make them pay... And sometimes blackmail them.
Kids are easy picking for them and it is unethical.
Nothing wrong with each one of you teaching younfg people about the pitfalls.
Do not blame Banks. Fight them!Make them pay.
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 19, 2006 3:16 AM
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» Butt ugly homes destroying Canada
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: Butt ugly homes destroying Canada
Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: A few questions.
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: malaparte on Nov 19, 2006 4:28 AM
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Posted by: The Butcher on Nov 19, 2006 5:12 AM
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Undercut lending rates as I do.
Age as I do!!!!!!
But enjoy fucking the Banks at their own game when you have saved a family from starvation or bankrupcy!
You know what?
My failure rate is less than 30%
Poor people actually pay!
Write to me individually.
I will tell you of the work we do in Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia.
This is about saving children from starvation. I have no patience for our pampered youth who do not know how to pay for the latest i-pod!
francois@upnaway.com
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» RE: Do what I do
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: Bobsays on Nov 19, 2006 8:29 AM
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And here is the results of my experiment: it is possible and I am richer than I have ever been. So, how did I do it? I grew up poor and have always had to work, starting from a paper route to doing odd jobs for the neighbours. When I was old enough, I joined the army and served for a few years before going to university (which with my army pay and scholarship, left me with little debt).
In the meantime my mom was always living under a dark cloud of debt. She could never get out from it.
I have bohemian tastes. I love culture and nice food and travel. Hey, it's me. This self-awareness came early in my life and thus I put my thinking to how I could live this life.
I read loads on personal finance and saving and earning money. What I found was that there were basic principles out there that hold steady no matter what is happening with the economy. If you understand these principles, you will be able to make sound judgements on life's day-to-day battles.
I never ever borrowed money for cars, appliances etc. I always walked, rode a bike or took public transit. I always rented in the poorest flat in the nicest area (thus making it safe to come home late at night, and removing all the visual negativity that plagues your mind when you live in bad areas).
I made sure to put aside money in a tax-free, high interest account and to never stop saving. Over time, this has turned into a considerale pot of money that just keeps growing. With this financial cushion, I am then able to take risks like leave boring jobs or ones that have stopped being a positive experience, and to travel constantly. I run all my affairs like a business, controlling my diary and never ever doing what somebody else wants me to do. I only do win-win stuff. I am nobody's 'bitch'.
Now I look at my mom who has just retired with a mountain of debt. I am helping her, but I also learned that she was pursuing a different model of running her life than me. And it was a model where she was always a prisoner to the banks. I, on the other hand, have so much in savings that the banks treat me like some big investor and always bother me with their stupid schemes to get me to invest (which I turn down).
Some people think I am a 'freak' because I don't have all the outward trappings of middle class life. Yet they also are bitterly jealous: I am fitter than other people my age, I look younger, I travel to exotic places all the time, I always hang out with pretty and smart women, and an average week for me is a round of openings, free cultural events etc.
My advice to everyone else is this: totally ignore the idiot pressures people put on you, sit down and work out what really makes you happy, and then get rid of most of your debt and significantly boost your savings. Live like a modern minimalist. Tell your friends that is what you are, even if it sounds pretentious and strange. And live your life for you, not for the president and his friends.
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» Good For You
Posted by: patvic1405
» RE: Sounds workable.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: Liger
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: Liger
» RE: A few years ago, I started an experiment
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Nov 19, 2006 9:29 AM
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By Kevin Carmichael
Nov. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Robert E. Rubin, Treasury secretary under President Bill Clinton, and former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker said foreign investors probably won't keep increasing dollar holdings, raising the risk of a slump in the currency.
Failure by the U.S. government to shrink its budget deficit may spook the central banks, hedge funds and others who have been buying Treasury notes, Rubin said. Volcker said the U.S. borrowing requirements raise the risk of a ``crisis'' in the dollar as soon as the next two and a half years.
``It seems almost inconceivable that this will continue indefinitely,'' Rubin, who now chairs Citigroup Inc.'s executive committee, said in a videotaped message for a dinner hosted by the Concord Coalition yesterday in New York.
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Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 19, 2006 3:36 PM
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» RE: "Society doomed"?
Posted by: Liger
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 19, 2006 4:15 PM
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» RE: Not going to lie to these young people.
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Not going to lie to these young people.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 19, 2006 6:16 PM
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That means the negative affect of default on mortgages has yet to be felt in the 30 former hot areas of the country. Twenty-five percent of mortgages carry adjustable rates, and more than 50% of those loans are sub-prime. People who put nothing down and should have never had a loan in the first place. Calls to the Homeownership Foundation are up over 25%, a record. More than 50% of the distressed callers have ARM loans. In 18 states more than 15% of homeowners with sub-prime ARMS were late on payments.
Foreclosures are like a funnel cloud; they tend to create their own downward spiral once they get started. The whole psychology of the market changes in a housing market down cycle. Fear now dominates the market. Demand falls because people expect prices to be less tomorrow than today. There is little urgency to buy. Making matters worse, lenders who have a large number of foreclosures on their books will try to recover whatever they can, often by under pricing the market. That further depresses retail prices; causing more and more sellers to have negative equity on a home they want to sell. This, in turn, causes more foreclosures, puts more pressure on the lenders to dump properties, and puts more downward pressure on prices. It is a vicious cycle that feeds on itself.
Who is to blame for this problem? The Fed via the lowest interest rates since the 1930s, endless money and credit and no control over loan qualifications. The banks, S&Ls and other lenders such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that threw lending caution to the winds and gave mortgages to anyone who could make his mark on a contract and lie about his income. Then in a class by themselves are the real estate agents. They created a financial death trap for one-third of all borrowers. Over the next 18 months more than $2 trillion of these loans will be re-priced and new monthly payments will be 25 to 100% higher. Most won’t be able to afford these higher payments and they will be forced into another exotic loan or go into default. If you do not have equity or cash to the equity you cannot refinance. Many will just walk away and that triggers debt relief. When a home is sold for less than is owed, it creates what is known as phantom income that the borrower must pay taxes on. That will create many bankruptcies. We can thank the Fed, banks and other lenders for this predicament. If you do not think this is serious, look at these numbers: 32.6% of new mortgages and home equity loans in 2005 were interest only, 43% of buyers put no money down, 15.2% of buyers owe at least 10% more than their homes are worth, 10% of all mortgage holders have no equity and that is growing in leaps and bounds. If we include 2006, 2007 and 2008, more than $2.7 trillion of mortgages will have to adjust to higher rates.
Over the next few years what can we expect? We can see a 40-60% adjustment in house prices in the former hot areas and those estimates are very conservative. In 1991 the REO was selling off real estate at a 70% to 90% discount. The bubble today is greater than at any time since the 1930s. Who gets hit worst? Los Angeles, of course, where only 2% of families can afford to buy the median priced home.
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» RE: Bob Chapman:housing will fall in value nationally
Posted by: vicki2001lynn
» Vicki, your'e more typical than you imagine
Posted by: rwa
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Posted by: yellow on Nov 19, 2006 9:29 PM
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The main significance of debt in the US economy over the last two decades is that it has acted as a Keynesian style stimulous to our inherently stagnant economy. In 1970 total US public and private debt was one and a half times the US GDP and by 2005 three and one half times the GDP and very close to the global level of GDP which is about $44 trillion. Though total US debt had been a significant portion of US GDP for some time it had remained more or less stable until 1981, the year Reagan took office, when total US debt took a sharp upward swing from just under twice the US GDP to where it is today. The biggest change in the structure of US debt is the role of finance capital which in 1975 occupied just under 10% of all US debt to now with finance occupying 30% or the single largest portion of total US debt with household debt a very close second. This is not just indicative of the level of financialization of US capitalism but the extent to which productive activity has been replaced by speculation. These trends have also coincided with increased US trade and balance of payments deficits. Lacking a sustained stimulous to growth, the worsening distribution of wealth reduced internal production and demand and increase the importance of foreign capital inflows, equity and housing price bubbles, and consumer borrowing to stimulate demand and the economy. The current housing bubble, one of the longest in history, has allowed for mortgage refinancing loans which provide most of the recent stimulous to the GDP growth. With increased demand for housing, some of it speculative, this form of loan collateral increased in value and encouraged more borrowing and lending. This trend increased investment in private residential housing to 36% of all private investment in 2005, a proportion not seen since the suburbanization boom in the late 1950s.
The real problem is finding a profitable outlet for investment for capital. Debt has provided the best answer for big capital to sustain profitable outlets for investment of surplus capital in an epoch of chronic stagnation. Though risky, it is preferable for capitalists to either a massive redistribution of wealth or massive taxing and spending on public works programs as in the 1930s. This is because capitalists find financialization profitable. Consumer debt also increases work effort and hence productivity and overall profitability. Debtors can also be disciplined with draconian bankruptcy laws. Yet this strategy is full of contradictions which the next major crisis will manifest clearly.
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» RE: Debt and the Stagnation Tendencies of Late US Capitalism.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 20, 2006 9:00 AM
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November 19, 2006
Despite the risks, borrowers are hardly shunning "exotic" loans that allow them to make minimal payments and that could leave them with more debt than they started with.
The Mortgage Bankers Assn. reports that about 26% of mortgage loan originations, by dollar volume, in the first six months of this year were interest-only.
Another 13% were so-called option adjustable-rate mortgages, which give borrowers a buffet of repayment options, including a minimum payment that doesn't cover the full interest or the principal.
Critics warn that the monthly bill could double or triple for unwary borrowers.
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» RE: 'Exotic' loans remain popular
Posted by: yellow
» RE: 'Exotic' loans remain popular
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: 'Exotic' loans remain popular
Posted by: billfaster
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Posted by: cinattra on Nov 20, 2006 9:46 AM
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We buy too much house or too much car for our income. We eat out instead of eating in. We have enough clothes in the closet but still we have to go to the sale and buy something because it is after all a sale and who wants to miss out on a good deal.
The poor execution of personal responsibility.
Cereal, ramen noodles and condensed soup was my college menu and the occassional can of chili when I did well on a test or paper. No mini-frig, no computer or t.v. either.
I only got in debt for the car I bought because I was required to go to an internship that I could not get to any other way. Having such poor credit as I did I ended up spending twice as much as the car cost because of the interest rate.
That car ended up saving my butt financially twice because I was in two accidents in that car and instead of getting the damage fixed I put the money in my bank account to help pay other bills.
Now I'm in the middle of a career change. I'm preparing myself for a lower paying job by downsizing the apartment we live in now to save more money. We want a second car but we're holding that off as long as possible depending on where we end up moving.
We're also putting off having our second child until the oldest is in school so we will have only one child in daycare at one time and my wife can begin her schooling.
The only debt I have are student loans because the credit cards are paid off after use.
You have to have a plan and you have to have some personal discipline about how you spend your money and you have to hope for perfect health.
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» RE: amen noodles
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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» RE: amen noodles
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Posted by: DaBear on Nov 20, 2006 12:11 PM
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Schechter: Its possible to spend less, but difficult because we're living in a time when its very hard to avoid rising prices. Young kids have to have the latest things. Business are charging more for something we used to get for less. We live in a culture where consumption is stimulated. It's hard to ignore.
Right here, in a piece focusing on the "young" debt is framed as an unecessary choice made by the inexperienced (at best) or foolish (at worst). The reality in the U.S. is that if you need to work at ANY job you must have the technological hardware and spoftware AT HOME because the demand by employers is that you work up to 20 hours per week on your own time after you've given your 60 hours per week in-house at the office/studio, etc. That's REALITY, not some frivolous choice. Most working people are underpaid and are forced to live far away from work because there is a serious lack of legitimated fast, efficient, accessible transit and housing prices in urban centers are more expensive than surburban and ex-urban rural areas. Most cable companies bundle their full load of entertainment with high speed internet so if you need the high speed net, you have to get all the other shit that "grownups" then turn around and castigate the young for their luxury entertainment. If you want a safe and efficient car you'll have to pay up to 60% over the ave. price of the ave. car that definitely doesn't have any safety features let alone the discounts on auto insurance.
Until Americans, progressives too, stop framing debt as the frivolity of the young and start owning up to the reality of a system THE ELDERS helped impose on the young, no amount of debt will ever be diminished. Rob Roy wrote a book called mortgage free abck in the 1980's and 90's... all those principles he touted are now specialized programs reserved for those with high credit scores and come for exhorbitant fees. The wsidom of the elder classes is complete nonsense for the realities of today's GenXers (35-43 year olds--who have kids on top of all this debt crap--and we don't spoil our kids with all the commercialized bullshit the elders are selling) and young people.
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» I agree the system is a bitch
Posted by: Bobsays
» RE: I agree the system is a bitch
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» RE: I agree the system is a bitch
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: Ayla87 on Nov 22, 2006 7:28 AM
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Nov 22, 2006 1:37 PM
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They aren't feeling the pain of the attack on their own employees and therefore their own consumer base.
It can't continue forever, clearly, and one day people will have to stop buying as much. The corporations will likely react by trying to cut costs to maintain their profits rather than increasing wages which is what is really needed, and the whole situation will escalate into a collapse.
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Posted by: anambrose on Nov 23, 2006 10:50 PM
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» RE: Old Borrowers Just have Debt
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Posted by: otto on Nov 25, 2006 6:42 AM
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Posted by: symcokid on Nov 25, 2006 8:32 PM
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