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Before the 9/11 Conspiracies, There Was the Oklahoma Bombing

By Matt Taibbi, RollingStone.com. Posted October 24, 2006.


Much of the faulty logic and circumstancial evidence that justifies the 9/11 conspiracies are repeats of the theories that abounded in Timothy McVeigh's Oklahoma City bombing.

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Over a month after I first wrote a column slamming the 9/11 Truth movement, I continue to get hate mail in massive quantities. A group of Truthers even picketed my office, and I'm still picking food particles out of my scarf after an incident in which the movement's house lunatic, a wild-eyed German blogger named Nico Haupt, tried to goad me into slugging him in a West Side diner.

"Go ahead, heet me, then I haf beeg story!" he roared, scream-spitting half-digested detritus in my face.

Of course I didn't hit him -- nothing in the world is more ridiculous than two writers fighting in a restaurant. If you're surprised that I would call someone who spit food on my lap a fellow writer, don't be. As I subsequently found out, Haupt is a literary juggernaut, one of the most voluble bloggers on the planet earth. His internet entries read like a MySpace mixture of MTV's Real World meets Che's Congo Diaries, only on meth and in a German accent.

His 9/11 conspiracy rants are full of little tidbits from the peripatetic revolutionary's hardscrabble life neatly gift-wrapped for his future biographers, ranging from the personal ("My girlfriend denied to marry me... I'm constantly broke.") to the heroic ("Maybe I'm scared that the Homeland Security will arrest me as a 'terrorist'? Not at all."). Haupt also makes sure to include regular doses of that other staple of pseudo-revolutionary diaries, i.e. the defiant salutation to the secret agents who of course have him under constant surveillance. "A personal note to the NSA, who's a regular log-in guest on my sites," he writes. "You're still bastards for me... Shame on you and go to hell!"

But my personal favorite was his theory about how the government's 9/11 conspirators tied up one particularly dangerous loose end:

I always was and always will be a big fan of Ed Asner's movies and TV series, especially "rich man, poor man." Last week, i was a bit disappointed that Asner "caved in" and basically made a u-turn, by writing that 9/11 was based on negligence. I heard a different view a long while ago, even personally from him on the phone. Someone else might speculate, why this has happened now. Maybe someone threatened Asner with some infos of his past?
Now there's a subject someone should investigate. What does the government have on Ed Asner? Photos of him shooting smack into Gavin McLeod's ankle? The lost pilot of Gay Lou Grant? If anyone out there has any idea, please don't hesitate to write.

Obviously, Nico Haupt does not represent the "mainstream" 9/11 Truth Movement, whatever that is. Even in my own experience I know this to be true. The colleagues of Haupt's from 911Truth.org whom I met that day were universally polite, respectful, and very sincere in their beliefs. True, they had some slightly bent ideas (one woman insisted with a straight face that the military was "behind all that Brad and Jennifer stuff"), but as a group they were nice, earnest people.

Unfortunately, I get the sense that these same nice people have a tendency to turn hostile, venomous and unrelentingly paranoid once they get logged back into an email server, which is why most journalists I know won't go near the 9/11 Truth issue more than once, if at all. On the one hand most reporters don't think it's a serious enough issue to bother with twice, and on the other hand nobody wants to deal with the torrent of abuse that comes with trying -- it's like shoving your head into a beehive. "I'd rather be poked in the eye with a sharp stick than write about that shit again," is how one columnist put it to me.

I'm sure I'll reach that point soon. In the meantime, I feel a need to share something I noticed while studying for a debate I'm supposedly having soon with some of the movement leaders. I doubt it will convince anyone who actually believes this stuff, but it's certainly worth pointing out that the 9/11 Truth movement is not only a cynical fiction, it's a recycled cynical fiction.

Take the central "fact" of 9/11 Truth lore, the rhetorical anchor of the entire movement -- the idea that the Twin Towers did not collapse as a result of the gigantic plane/jet-fuel explosions we all saw on television, but because of secondary explosions in other parts of the buildings that were hidden from view. This idea was rocketing around the conspiracy world in almost the exact same rhetorical format just six years before, after the Oklahoma City Federal building bombing.

In that case, it was mostly right-wing conspiracy theorists who came up with the idea that the McVeigh/Nichols fertilizer bomb could not possibly have felled the Murrah building, and that the real cause of the building's collapse was a much more powerful "second explosion" planned by the government and executed using more powerful demolition explosives.

Here's the lede of a report from World Net Daily, which shortly thereafter would become a major purveyor of 9/11 conspiracy theories, from May 18, 2001:
Multiple witnesses reported hearing more than one explosion the day the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City was bombed, while other explosives experts contend that the damage done to the building could not have been caused by a single bomb placed outside in a truck.
Just like the subsequent 9/11 conspiracy theories, the Oklahoma "second bomb" champions applied intense focus to the initial news reports right after the explosions (ignoring reports published later, by which time various discrepancies were cleared up), during which time numerous reports surfaced indicating that second and third explosive devices had been found, and that secondary explosions had been heard. And just like the 9/11 Truthers, the Oklahoma conspiracists quoted TV anchormen and women who opined offhandedly that the bombings seemed to be the work of sophisticated demolitions experts. Remember the Dan Rather clip used in Loose Change in which the anchorman says the collapse of WTC-7 is "reminiscent" of a controlled demolition? Here's how that worked in OKC:

"This is the work of a sophisticated group, this is a very sophisticated device," says one Oklahoma newscaster, in a much-circulated video of early Oklahoma news broadcasts, "and it has to have been done by an explosives expert."

Remember, this is just newspeople guessing on live TV; they're not reporting. But in both conspiracy theories, these comments were presented as though they're evidence of something. But what is a collapsing building supposed to remind an anchorman of -- an Aboriginal dance ceremony? An auction of polo ponies?

In 9/11 lore we are often told that the fact that people could be seen standing in the craters caused by the planes proved that the fires could not have been hot enough to compromise the steel structure. In Oklahoma City, conspiracists claimed that the fact that the YMCA building across the street from the Murrah building was unaffected proved that the truck bomb could not have caused the damage. "Window washers weren't even knocked off their scaffolding!" screamed one site.

Conspiracy theories are always full of this kind of "it's just common sense" rhetoric, i.e. you can't throw an ice cube through the side door of a Buick, so clearly the Titanic was not sunk by an iceberg... Similar appeals can be found throughout 9/11 literature. One of my favorites comes from David Ray Griffin, who in his book The New Pearl Harbor posited that if the falling top-section of the second tower had paused just a half-section each time it collapsed a floor beneath it, it would have taken 40 to 47 seconds to fall, and not the "near-freefall" 11 seconds or so that it actually took.

Which is true. It's also true that if the top-section had paused for three seconds on each floor, it would have taken, not 11 seconds, but three minutes to fall! And if it had paused five minutes on each floor, you could have watched the whole first half of Ghost Dad on the fifteenth floor before you died! And so on. Griffin never explains why he thinks the building should have paused a half-second on each floor, but that's why he teaches theology, not engineering.

Murrah conspiracists also used the inevitable scientific mumbo-jumbo genus of argument. Here's a typical entry by J. Orlin Grabbe, a ubiquitous conspiracy barnacle who can be found sticking to the cyber-hull of almost every right-wing conspiracy theory from the last two decades, from Vince Foster to Whitewater:
The concrete in the columns had a compressible yield strength of at least (and probably higher than) 3,500 pounds per square inch. Since this value is almost ten times the strength of the blast wave hitting the columns from the truck bomb, the blast wave is insufficient to produce a wave of deformation in the concrete (and thus to turn it back into its sand, gravel, and clay components).
In these accounts structures like the Murrah building and the World Trade Center suddenly become architectural Bismarcks, unsinkable engineering wonders seemingly impervious to damage. Just as writers like Griffin went out of their way to quote engineers who said "nowadays, they just don't build them as tough as the World Trade Center," Oklahoma conspiracists focused intently on the remarkably tough core of the federal building. Here's an excerpt from a post-Murrah report by William F. Jasper, who not surprisingly would surface years later as a leading voice of the relatively small right-wing contingent of 9/11 conspiracy theorists:
Critics have argued compellingly that the blast wave from the ANFO truck bomb was totally inadequate to cause the collapse of the massive, steel-reinforced concrete columns of the federal building in Oklahoma City...
One need hardly mention that "steel-reinforced" would a few years later become one of the most-widely circulated phrases on the internet (third place, after "rock hard penis" and "buy vicodin online"), in connection with both the Pentagon and the WTC, which were variously supposed to be impenetrable or unshakeable. "For that hole to have been caused by Flight 77," barks Loose Change about the Pentagon crash, "the Boeing would have had to smash through nine feet of steel-reinforced concrete, traveling 310 feet." Says wanttoknow.info of WTC: "First Steel-Reinforced Skyscraper To Ever Collapse in Fire!"

"Steel-reinforced" made great waves with the Murrah revisionists, but the likes of Jasper and Grabbe were not quite reputable enough. For the conspiracy theory to really take off, a true authority was needed to put his stamp on the case. So along came Ted Gunderson, who carried the impressive title of a former Special Agent in Charge of the FBI. Gunderson's analysis of Oklahoma City was a staple of conspiracy websites. Here's what he wrote of the Murrah blast:
"A very high tech and top secret barometric bomb was the cause ... could not have been built ... without the knowledge of research classified at the very highest level of top secret by the U.S. government."
The Murrah conspiracy sites that referred to Gunderson's conclusions generally failed to point out that Gunderson had devoted much of his post-FBI career to the exposure of a plot called "The Finders," which he alleged was a vast CIA enterprise to kidnap thousands of American children for sex slavery in Satanic cults. Not surprisingly, Gunderson would resurface after 9/11 with a DVD called 9/11 Failure: The True Colors of the New F.B.I., which argued that the F.B.I. had foreknowledge of the attacks.

As if that weren't enough, Oklahoma City conspiracy theorists also pointed to seismic evidence proving the existence of secondary explosions. Raise your hands, kids, if you've seen anything like this graph before. It's a chart put together by the Oklahoma Geological Survey purportedly "proving" that there was more than one explosion in Oklahoma City that day:



Compare that to the seismic graph from the Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.J., frequently cited as "proof" that there were secondary explosions in the Towers.



In both cases the seismologists who actually compiled the data rejected conspiracy explanations, but the non-scientists peddling the conspiracy theories overrode them, apparently knowing better how to interpret their data.

Both Oklahoma City conspiracy theorists and 9/11 revisionists circulated "eyewitness accounts" of strange men in suits confiscating evidence -- the last link in the coverup. Regarding the Oklahoma City bombing, here's an account from www.whatreallyhappened.com:
The minister who married my wife and I was in OK City right after the Murrah Building bomb(s) exploded, and he volunteered to help dig for survivors. He told of three very odd occurrences. In the first, he was required to show his ID six times before being allowed to help look for survivors. In the second, he confirmed the stories told by others that men in suits and ties were literally stepping over the wounded in their haste to gather up files and certain other items in the debris.
Compare that to this account (complete with photo) from 9-1-1Research.com of the cleanup at the Pentagon after 9/11:
Photographs taken immediately following the attack show a number of pieces of apparent aircraft debris. One of the larger pieces was documented by a photograph by passery-by Mark Faram. It shows the piece on the lawn northwest of the heliport, a few hundred feet from the impact center, suggesting it may have been moved before Faram arrived. Other photographs show people, some in dress attire, moving pieces of debris.


How about the suspects, the patsies? Well, in both the OKC bombing and in 9/11, the supposed fall guys are reportedly seen on American military bases before the attacks. Here's how one conspiracy site described the OKC evidence:

Prior to the attack, a pilot flying over a small military base outside of Oklahoma City photographed a Ryder Truck similar, if not entirely identical, to the truck used by Timothy McVeigh, inside the compound.

Here's how this trick surfaced in 9/11 lore, according to one site (and repeated similarly in thousands of others):
Four of the hijackers trained at Pensacola Naval Air Station, a base that trains many foreign nationals.
The Pensacola story continues to circulate today, even though it was long ago established that these accounts of hijackers like Saeed Alghamdi living on U.S. military bases resulted from the same error -- confusing the hijackers with men with similar Arab names -- that initially led some journalists to think that some of the 9/11 hijackers were still alive (more on that nonsense in a future column -- I've almost finished chasing down the last of those reports, work that people like the Loose Change documentarians should have done long ago).

How about faked evidence? In the Murrah case, there was much suspicion about one crucial discovery. "The truck axle found at the site is alleged to have been moved or planted, or to have its vehicle identification number doctored to implicate McVeigh," recounts the Rough Guide to Conspiracy Theories. Numerous Murrah conspiracy sites complain that the axle should have been destroyed in the blast, that the government must have known about McVeigh in advance and planted the truck-part at the scene (I love the idea of the government blowing up a normal truck axle, carving McVeigh's VIN number on it, surreptitiously leaving it at the scene -- probably dropping it through a pantleg a la The Great Escape -- and then finding it themselves a few hours later).

In 9/11 Truth, it's the fragment of hijacker Ziad Jarrah's passport that too-mysteriously survives, making it famous as the "crash-proof passport" which one source says strains "the credulity of the staunchest supporter of the FBI's War on Terrorism." Popular Mechanics, in its 9/11 Truth debunking, also recalled one site that listed all the evidence found implicating the hijackers, including Mohammed Atta's suitcase and the rental car, and wrote after each notation: "HOW CONVENIENT!"

How about the "the attacks were too sophisticated for such hicks to pull off" argument? It, too was present in both OKC and 9/11. In the Oklahoma City bombing we were told time and again that the bombing was beyond the capabilities of a pair of dolts like Nichols and McVeigh, while the line about "19 boxcutter-wielding Arabs led by a guy in a cave outwitting the U.S. military" is one of the most commonly repeated lines of the 9/11 movement.

One could go on in this way forever. What good conspiracy theory, for instance, would lack an allegation of some highly-placed insider who is warned ahead of time to stay away from the crime scene? This one you can find in almost any popular scandal dating back a hundred years. J.P. Morgan, it is said, was warned off the Titanic. Remember those rumors about Richard Nixon being warned off Korean Air Lines Flight 007? How about Lockerbie? Conspiracy theorists back then insisted that state department employees were "tipped off" in advance of the fateful crash.

In Oklahoma City, there were repeated whispers that government employees were warned in advance to stay away from the Murrah building. Some conspiracists were even more specific: "The first appointed trial judge in the OKC case, Judge Wayne Alley, was removed after it was learned that he was warned to stay away from the Murrah Federal Building in the days before the bombing," wrote William F. Jasper, who of course would surface years later with nearly identical allegations of government foreknowledge in 9/11. As for insiders serendipitously warned away from the bomb site, there are plenty of those stories in 9/11 lore, too -- I even got a letter from one Truther pointing to the fact that Bush nephew Jim Pierce had a meeting in the Towers rescheduled as evidence of foreknowledge. (The source saying Pierce's meeting was rescheduled was Barbara Bush, which would mean that the Bushes were intentionally informing the public about their dastardly efforts to warn off their relatives).

That the motive for the bombings would be the same in both cases is no surprise, I guess. OKC conspiracists believed the Murrah bombing was a smokescreen for the "introduction of laws cracking down on 'patriot' militias," while the usual 9/11 explanation, ironically, involves an excuse to pass the Patriot Act. "Can you imagine the Patriot Act passing without 9/11 having taken place?" screams one site.

No surprise, again, because the motive of most all secret government conspiracies is usually supposed to be some kind of aggrandizement of power. But it's certainly an interesting coincidence that both the Murrah and the WTC bombings were also imagined to have been committed to destroy actual physical evidence of the plot inside the respective buildings.

"There has been a U.S. government (primarily BATF and FBI) cover-up motivated by the desire to destroy evidence of a 'government sting gone bad,'" writes Grabbe about the OKC bombings.

This dovetails nicely with the usual explanation for the "pulling" of WTC-7: "WTC 7 was allowed to be taken down so it would destroy evidence of the greatest crime in American history," insists one of many 9/11 Truth sites.

I think this last contention has to be the absolute funniest detail in all 9/11 lore -- the contention that the CIA or whoever destroyed a whole building to get rid of the "evidence" of the 9/11 plot, which many alleged was masterminded from the CIA offices in WTC-7. The same people who complain endlessly that they can't get the evidence they need without subpoena power imagine that the Central Intelligence Agency somehow needs to destroy its own buildings in order to keep its "secret plans" (contained in a Mission Impossible-style folder, no doubt!) from leaking to... the 9/11 Truth Movement! Why would the CIA need to do that, if they don't even need a shredder -- shit, not even a four-dollar Master Lock -- to keep their 9/11 secrets hidden now?

And what evidence could possibly exist that would be so unwieldy that it would require the destruction of an entire building to be rid of? What, did the CIA carve its 9/11 plans in a 7,000-pound slab of New Hampshire granite in the WTC-7 basement? Were they doodled on the CIA bathroom stalls? Here I sit, broken-hearted. Came to shit, but only... planned controlled demolition of the World Trade Center! Seriously, what "evidence" had to go? And why wouldn't they just remove it surreptitiously, rather than blowing up a gazillion-dollar building on live international television, leaving the rubble to the mercy of firemen and whoever else was down there?

The obvious answer to this entire essay, of course, is that both conspiracies are absolutely true. The government committed both crimes, in both cases leaving no evidence except that which can be deduced by engineers, amateur seismological readings, mysterious forewarnings, pictures of men in suits concealing evidence, rumors about patsies seen on military bases, and, of course, the always-reliable Cui bono? If that's the case, one really has to give it to the government -- those guys are good. They can't keep sex scandals or fundraising corruption or classified Pentagon war assessments or clandestine wiretap programs a secret, but they can commit two humongous mass murders and get away with them, being arrogant and devious enough to leave exactly the same maddeningly incomplete circumstantial evidence behind for us to stew over in both cases. Almost like they did it on purpose that way, to fuck with us.

Which is kind of funny, when you think about it. In fact, if they did pull that off, they fucking deserve to get away with it. Anyone that clever must know what they're doing.

p.s. Truthers are going to complain that I still haven't addressed the science claims. That's coming next.

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Matt Taibbi is a writer for Rolling Stone.

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opinion of structural engineer
Posted by: OldGVerden on Oct 24, 2006 4:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This comment is not to Matt but to everyone who reads these comments. I work as a structural engineer so I do know a little about building construction, although my experience is mainly with 1- and 2-story buildings. Structural engineers typically work with architects to make sure that whatever the architect wants to see space-wise can be built. In shorthand, my job is to make sure the building (or any part of it) does not fall down or over. "Gravity sucks and wind blows."...ba ha ha, get it? Don't worry, neither does my wife.
I dug into this issue because I wanted to know why the buildings came down. The more I read, the more the anomalies (sp?) piled up. I do not know what happened that day, but I do know that a lot of things don't add up - WTC7, multiple military games scheduled for that day, put and call options, etc, etc.
All I can say is read and think. Come to your own conclusions. Don't let Matt intimidate you into closing your mind. Oh, and anyone in a foreign country have an extra bed?

» RE: opinion of structural engineer Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: opinion of structural engineer Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Who pays Alternet? Posted by: Idunno
» RE: Who pays Alternet? Posted by: jfrank68
» RE: opinion of a physicist Posted by: don_alejandro
» RE: opinion of a physicist Posted by: vangogh69
Matt isn't intimidating..
Posted by: sln70 on Oct 24, 2006 5:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
he's OBSESSED.
Or maybe he's just pimping himself out to the 9/11 truth community because he loves the attention.

I have a diagnosis for Mr. Taibbi.
There are those who truly don't believe that the US government was in ANY way involved in 9/11. Fine. Cool.
Then there are those who think maybe something was up, but not what the 9/11 truth community says. All right, they'll likely do their own research and get back to us.
Finally, we have Matt's type. These are the people who have already looked down the rabbit hole.. taken the red-pill ... worn the tin-foil hat .. whatever you'd like to call it, and they've seen something big, ugly, black and scary. They want so badly NOT to believe what they already beleive that they run around screaming that 'it can't be true it can't be true! They try and humiliate the people who have the courage of their convictions in order to prevent their own brains from traveling any further down that road.

Matt, it's okay. You'll live. Come to the dark side: we have cookies!

» Psychobabble Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Psychobabble Posted by: gretavo
» RE: Psychobabble Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Psychobabble Posted by: pegcarter
» Quite a chance actually Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Psychobabble Posted by: pegcarter
» wow, you are so wrong! Posted by: gretavo
» Not at all Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Not at all Posted by: JoeCraine
» RE: Not at all Posted by: gretavo
» RE: Not at all Posted by: brunowe
» Not at all... Posted by: brunowe
» Ha! Keep trying! Posted by: gretavo
» I rest my case! Posted by: gretavo
» Interesting Coincidences Posted by: kogwonton
» RE: Psychobabble Posted by: jwg
» RE: Psychobabble Posted by: LeftWright
Ad Hominem Attack
Posted by: rwa on Oct 24, 2006 7:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The writer spends 8 paragraphs on attacking an irrelevant foreigner before getting to the subject. The attacks serve one purpose, to alienate the reader from those who question the myths. Why is his case so weak that he needs to resort to this?
When he does get to the substance, he simply doesn't offer any explanation as to why all those witnesses heard two explosions or what created that crater in the middle of the Murrah building. Pathetic. We are supposed to ignore all the facts because some "right wingers" are among those who doubt our government.

» complete absence of facts = pyschobabble Posted by: thoughtcriminal
AWWW POOR MATT
Posted by: OWN-the-NWO on Oct 25, 2006 1:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your hyperbole may work in your colums, but when you get into a factual debate about 9/11 you are going to walk away with your tail between your legs. While I despise nico, as much as most of the rest of the movement (the guy believes the planes were holograms for christs sake). I despise you more, because you are a tantamount example of what is wrong with "journalists". You pick and choose the weaker or more circumstantial arguments about 9/11, build strawmen, then try and "debunk" the whole thing. Efforts as pathetically transparent as the popular mechanics crowd. Just as with the lead researcher for their book, when faced with tough questions from charles goyette a self-proclaimed agnostic on 9/11, you as well will look like a total fool in above his head.

5mb audio

» Yet more psychobabble Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» thoughtcriminal caught in obvious lie Posted by: Iconoclast421
» btw, a note about "psychobabble" Posted by: Iconoclast421
» very common PR strategies Posted by: gretavo
» RE: AWWW POOR MATT Posted by: ewing2001
» Nico you are an embarrassment Posted by: OWN-the-NWO
wow...
Posted by: guerillaTHOUGHTterrorist on Oct 25, 2006 1:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry, since when was rolling stone a reputable source of news with any substinence. I guess that's the first problem in America, we have nowhere left to go for reputable news anymore, but the fact of the matter is that American military might is the greatest in the world, and was so during the 9/11 attack. Why was it that our radar detection system who is able to spot multiple incoming torpedos was not able to detect a single plane heading towards new york city? Nevermind the fact that Bush waited more than a year before even naming someone to head the 9/11 cover-up commission, 411 days to be exact, and who better to head that commission but the cover-up king, henry kissinger, but due to public outcry, he was replaced by two people very closely linked to the White House. Nevermind the fact that three simaltaneus war-game training exercises had most of our military fighters over the water, in canada, and in alaska. We were limited to 8 fighter jets at andrews airforce base to look into 22 possible hijack situations. Nevermind the fact that Bush's friends stood to gain with the massive military build up following this tragedy. And nevermind the fact that to this day, e have not had a true independent inquiry into the greatest single tragedy on US soil since Pearl Harbor. The price of freedom is vigilence, and somewhere along history, we have given up our responsiblities and have allowed corporate america to put the people in a stranglehold. We have allowed lobbyists to infest our system and drown out the cries of the people. today, there are 125 lobbyists for every politician in Washington representing everything from NPO's to corporate interests. And who funds politicians' campaigns but the corporations who hold the wealth. Call me a socialist, a terrorist, but I still call myself American. I call those who attempt to limit my rights as traitors. I know my rights, I know my constitution which the founding fathers risked their all for, yet others dare call me unpatriotic, unamerican. I call them sheep, lemmings, drones unquestionably following others because they fear thinking for themselves. Sure they can watch the news and feel informed, but we ned to examine the disinformation pouring out of our media. There is no more vigilence on their part for seeking the truth, they are just another extentsion of corporate interests, but i digress.
The power to question is gradually disappearing. There are those who would call me a conspiracy theorist, imagine me sitting in a shack out in the forest with a bare light bulb penning angry letters to the government. think what you will but once a person stops exercising their rights is the moment that the government starts to take them away. Just read the patriot act and about "free-speech zones." words are only words, and the actions of this administration have continually contradicted their floral speeches about how other countries hate our freedoms. There is no more accountability on the part of the government, and that is the surest sign that our government has turned toxic. We must question because if we don't, then the government is no longer a true representation of the people's will, which by very definition is a democracy.

» RE: wow... Posted by: babs
Let's talk about the 9/18 and 10/9 terror attacks instead
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 25, 2006 1:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the anthrax in the mail that sent off to media outlets and Democratic Senators, and which filtered out through the envelopes and killed a few postal workers?

In contrast to 9/11, only five people died due to the anthrax attacks, but they shut down the Hart Senate Office building and darkened the House of Representatives for almost a week.

The culprit has never been found, but all the evidence indicates that the powder was a highly sophisticated bioweapon that only a few people with high security clearances knew how to make, and those people were within the US biowarfare-biodefense programs.

It is possible that a 'lone wolf' actor snuck out of a classified lab with some of this stuff, and it's also possible that such a person could sneak a nuclear warhead out of a lab - but let's just say that it's highly unlikely that that would be the case.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven - how many times has the FBI switched the top investigator off the job (at least three times)? Now the FBI is claiming that it was not a high-tech weapon, but lets look at Richard Preston's reporting in his book on biowarfare entitled, "The Demon in the Freezer" - on Oct 16, the USAMRIID researchers at Fort Detrick, who had dealt with horrors such as Ebola (read Preston's other book, "The Hot Zone"), started analysing the samples:

pg 165: "The view was wall-to-wall spores. The spores were ovoids, rather like footballs but with more softly rounded ends. The material seemed to be absolutely pure spores."

pg 166: "Whoa, (Peter) Jahrling muttered, hunched over the eyepieces. Something was boiling off the spores. "This is clearly bad stuff", he said. This was not your mother's anthrax. The spores had something in them, an additive, perhaps. Could this material have come from a national bioweapons program?"

Then a sample was sent to Battelle, who autoclaved it:
pg 171: "The helicopter took off with the sample and thupped westward over Maryland. It touched down in West Jefferson, Ohio, near Columbus, at the Hazardous Materials Research Center of the Battelle Memorial Institute, a nonprofit scientific research and consulting organization. Battelle scientists took the 'hatbox' into the lab. They heated the anthrax powder in an autoclave... the spores were stuck together in lumps."

pg 174:"The spores of anthrax went straight through the paper of the Daschle envelope and other anthrax envelopes full of ultrafine powder...even though they had been sealed tightly with tape."

pg 176:"The (anthrax) skulls were falling apart. He could see them crumbling into tiny clumps and individual spores, smaller and smaller as he watched. This was anthrax designed to fall apart in the air, to self-crumble... He had a national security clearance, and knew something about anthrax, but he could not imagine how this weapon had been made"

pg 177 "Jahrling ran upstairs, closed the door and stared at the anthrax for a long time. He didn't say much. Geisbert's security clearance was rated secret, and the details of how this material could have been made might be more highly classified...he had the classified safe opened. He studied a document or documents with red-shaded borders that would appear to contain exact technical formulas for various kinds of weapons-grade anthrax....Jahrling refers to the secret of skull anthrax as the Anthrax Trick, though he won't discuss it."

(post continued on next page)

Continued 9/18 and 10/9 post
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 25, 2006 1:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pg 178: "The Army scientists were telling the FBI that the powder was extremely refined and dangerous, while a Battelle scientist named Michael Kuhlman was allegedly saying that the anthrax was ten to fifty times less potent that the Army was claiming... One Army official is said to have blown up at Simons and Kuhlman at the meeting, saying to the Battelle man, "Goddamn it, you stuk your anthrax in an autoclave, and you turned it into hockey pucks."

Well, it's fun to speculate, but prime suspect number one appears to be Battelle Memorial Institute - and guess who just signed on to the 'public-private partnership' to run the University of California's nuclear labs (along with Bechtel and BWXT) - yup - Battelle! They have plans to build a new biowarfare research center in Tracy.

It's also worth noting that whoever handled the anthrax must have been vaccinated with it - and who was the sole manufacturer of anthrax vaccine - no, it wasn't Bioport of MI, they had been contracting Battelle to manufacture the vaccine (as is Vaxgen).

And now the FBI and the Washington Post are claiming that "in spite of previous reports, the anthrax was not 'weaponized' and there were no additives".

Liars, Liars, Pants On Fire!

You must be thinking your readers are really stupid, mr. Taibbi
Posted by: JP2 on Oct 25, 2006 1:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After your last article against the 9/11 truth movement, you got asked in the comments numerous questions; you received criticism and support from the readers and you completely ignored it; you have been treated quite fairly for being someone dismissing as stupidity the fight of many for what they consider the truth to be uncovered.
Yet you come back now with the same bullying behavior, making yourself strong of the few that helped your case insulting you.

You ignore again, as you'll always do, the simple fact that people deserve their questions answered. You consider yourself a journalist, how come this simple principle does not occur to you?
You can go on forever to pick facts and opinions and make fun of them and have fantasies about being a journalist. But the simple fact that the people out there are waiting for answers will always be lost on you.

You're no martyr, mr. Taibbi. You're just a depressing bad journalist.
Now you're pulling the same kind of intimidatory behavior again. You're not considering any of the objections you got the last time; you're not interested in a real debate because you're full of contempt for the stupid peons of the 9/11, and that's settles it for you.

Are your readers supposed to waste their time to object to you again and again while you ignore any of their questions and arguments?

Since you think so much of yourself that you don't need to face a real discussion, and you only pick up some twisted fact you feel safe to debunk (or so you believe), I personally am giving up on you. I hope everyone else does.

» Ho hum - more of the same mush Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Nice try... Posted by: JP2
» Not So Nice Try... Posted by: Douglas
» RE: Not So Nice Try... Posted by: JP2
» RE: Not So Nice Try... Posted by: gretavo
» what?? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: what?? Posted by: rwa
» Wow ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Wow ... Posted by: rwa
» RE: Wow ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» You're making that up ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» I want an investigation! Posted by: mjabele
» What was on the lawn? Posted by: LeftWright
» Plane debris..... Posted by: mjabele
» Eyewitness accounts Posted by: mjabele
» More eyewitnesses. Posted by: mjabele
» RE: what?? Posted by: pegcarter
» RE: Not So Nice Try... Posted by: pegcarter
» Same "eyewitnesses" same reply Posted by: LeftWright
» More eyewitnesses Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Not So Nice Try... Posted by: pegcarter
» Mr. Taibbi has found his literary niche Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Those nasty % Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Never doubt LOVE Posted by: LeftWright
» Topic for next 9?11 Truth book Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Topic for next 9?11 Truth book Posted by: Conservasaurus
Can you tell us what you think happened?
Posted by: pingoo on Oct 25, 2006 2:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Matt,

This is the second article of yours that I read in which you ridicule the 9/11 truth movement. While everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, I find the way you bunch up all the people who beleive that there is more to the event of 9/11 than what the whole world has been told as paranoid conspiracy theorists as rather insulting. Although there are those who are more obsessed than others about this issue you should tread a bit more carefully, as the majority of people who have questions simply just want to know more about a historic event for which no real investigation has been conducted. The official story is riddled with inconsistencies. Many 'facts' outlined in the official 9/11 report have been found to be false. Does this not demand a new independent and thorough investigation to what happened that day? Can you really say that you are satisfied with the official story and have no more questions to ask? Considering what this event unleashed upon the world in the past five-six years it is imperitive that the truth or at least more truth be revealed. The mere fact that the US government has held back on pursuing an open investigation is reason enough to suspect that there may be some government involvment.

In any case, your articles seem to be contributing to those who hold back on new information being given to the public about 9/11. You talk about inexperienced and unqualified people making statements that they clearly are parrotting because someone planted a conspiracy theory in their head. Well, last I checked the Rolling Stone Magazine was not an authority on structural engineering or politocs or world affairs in that matter, so what exactly gives you the right to put the breaks on a theory that, although it may be proven wrong, is making Amricans and people around the globe push for more clarity and truth? Who are you to say that people are wrong for having an alternative theory?

There is no doubt in the fact that the current US administration has lied multiple times on a variety of current affairs events - the mose famous of which and one that is hardly held against them enough is the claim that Iraq had WMD's and that as a country it was a danger to the security of the United States. That said, do you really trust these people to hold back crucial information from the public as they have been doing with 9/11?

Rather than continuosly discrediting the 9/11 'conspiracy' theory as you do, why don't you write an article purely about what you beleive what happened that day even if it sticks strictly to the official story of the 9/11 commission. I find that your articles are often critical of many but never really reveal your position on the subject. If you are going to oppose a great number of people then at least have the courage to tell them what you stand for.

» RE: ridiculous Posted by: JP2
Good to see you haven't let the sh*t train deter you from writing about this topic
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 25, 2006 2:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In case you are wondering where some of this is coming from, check out this posting at Portland Independent Media Center by one 'reapost'. Quote: "I think it's time to write letters, send emails and make phone calls to Rolling Stone magazine." - followed by about a hundred links to your magazine. If only all that energy could go into investigating Rumsfeld's activities...

To see a timeline of the introduction of "the no-plane conspiracy theories", check out http://www.oilempire.us/no-plane-timeline.html. Kind of interesting, to be taken with the old grain of salt.

some highlights:
"2003 - Eric Hufschmid produces a movie Painful Deceptions, which claims a Global Hawk robot plane hit the Pentagon. The facts that hundreds of people saw the plane and that tons of plane parts were recovered were not mentioned in the film. Absolutely no one saw a Global Hawk in the vicinity of the Pentagon that day, and the debris did not match of Global Hawk, but that did not prevent the film from developing a substantial following in the 9/11 truth movement.

July 2004 - A website for the film In Plane Site is posted by the Power Hour, a right wing fundamentalist internet radio show in Missouri....The primary thesis of the website and the film is the discredited "pod" claim, but the film also promotes "Pentagon Missile" and a video montage claiming a dust cloud from the South Tower collapse was really a large explosion at the base of the towers (among other false claims)...

Summer 2005 - The first edition of the movie Loose Change is released. It promotes "Flight 77 did not hit Pentagon" and the WTC "pod" plane. The second edition, released a few months later drops the pod claim but adds the "no plane crash in Pennsylvania" hoax.

April 29, 2006 - USA Today reviews “no-plane” based film “Loose Change,” which its supporters think is a breakthrough accomplishment for the 9/11 truth movement. In reality, several USA Today reporters and editors saw Flight 77 while they were commuting to work on 9/11 (the USA Today building is not far from the Pentagon)...

June 5, 2006 - The New York Times publishes a long profile of the 911truth.org conference in Chicago that promotes Loose Change and ignores the issues of the warnings and wargames.
"

So what does it all mean? The 9/11 'how the towers collapsed' bit has been done to death by pbs, frontline, and others: The towers were built like grass stems - all the supports were on the outside of the building. The South Tower fell first, though hit second, because it was hit lower (and in the corner). The jet fuel and paper fire caused the metal to sag, not melt; as the floors sagged they pulled away from the outer structure and eventually collapsed. Recall the jagged spires sticking out of the ground? Those were the outer supports. None of this seems to have had any effect on the 9/11 Truthiness Movement, but then their main goals seems to involve hijacking discussions (check this thread - trolls on parade!) and smearing people. Notice also that they avoid naming Rice and Tenet (7/10 CIA briefing) or Rumsfeld, Rice, Cheney and Bush (Aug 6th PDB) - so why weren't some kind of warnings given to the airlines - like, 'we're expecting hijackings, and here's a list of potential suspects' - they coordinate well on drug smuggling cases, for example.

Oh, wait, I've got to go and pick up a call from my CIA handler now.

P.S. - A little reminder to Rumsfeld and the Rendon Group: Propaganda is a soft weapon. Hold it in your hand for long enough and it will turn on you. Hitler had the best propagandists in history - but he ended up shooting himself all the same.

» Embarassing Ignorance Posted by: rwa
Prove why the buildings fell so fast Matt. why the concrete turned to dust
Posted by: zarman on Oct 25, 2006 2:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hi Matt,
Since my brother died in the first tower, Geoffrey Cloud, I have been researching 9/11 for the reason of understanding, and finding the truth. Unlike you who are grandstanding this heinous event to further your career.
1.) Tell me how the 2 towers fell, and WTC fell so quickly? Structural and demolition engineers use their expertise to easliy explain it. You always fail to mention the university scientists (M.I.T., etc. )who claim controlled demolition. When you go to dispute the science as you say you will in your next article, will you go to them? I think not....as they are experts in their fields, and actually want to know the truth, unlike you.
2.) What turned all of that concrete into dust?
A building falling over does not turn into dust, and fall in to pieces over 60% the perfect size that is created in a controlled demolition.

Instead of your unprofessional name calling, in your next article please give us the sources(in detail) of your information so we can come to the same conclusions that you do. It is obvious that your research is no where near as detail oriented as many(not all) in the 9/11 truth movement.
Or even better, read the 9/11 document from the government that has so many holes in it, it loses all credibility. Show me where they are right, have you read it yet? I doubt it.
Watch this on google: David Ray Griffin - Testimony at the Congressional Black Caucus

You are grandstanding on the 9/11 truth movements work. You are looking through all of the their painstaking research, and deciding what to write about from it to prove your "points".
You are name calling, not creating original "investigative" journalism. You are creating shoddy journalism. Your articles further reinforce the belief in america that mainstream media is sanitized, bought and paid for. It is obvious that the passion for truth displayed by the german blogger is not existing in you at all.

Still looking for the 9/11 truth,
Michael Cloud

» logic no good Posted by: stormchilde1975
Death by liberal ego
Posted by: dainin on Oct 25, 2006 3:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's all over but the screaming.

This piece is a real doozy. I can almost see the bubble over his head with the words "If the Bush Administration was involved, then Rolling Stone and Alternot should have seen this before those crazy conspiracy theorists."

Looks like the pseudo-liberals of American pop media are starting to collapse faster than the WTC towers.

» pseudo-liberals Posted by: Iconoclast421
Blow The House Down - prelude and aftermath.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 25, 2006 3:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 9/11 Truthiness Movement's primary goal is to draw attention away from the pre- and post- 9/11 events. Since the topic is being ignored, and since I need more writing practice, let's consider those issues:

For pre-9/11, you want to read Robert Baer. In particular, read Blow The House Down. I'll recap a few of the facts that Baer uses (I won't pull a spoiler, don't worry):

-John O'Neill was forced into retirement when the FBI gave his personnel file to the NYT in early 2001 (he was the principle investigator on the Cole bombing).

(note) - David Frasca, the FBI agent who sat on Collen Rowley's urgent FISA requests, is still there (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/waronterrorism/story /0,,722426,00.html)

-Two Saudi officials, one suspected of being a Saudi intelligence agent, were in contact with two of the hijackers in California almost two years before 9/11.

-The SEC and FBI found no evidence that anyone benefitted financially from 9/11, but experts acknowledge that the use of encrypted trades, fiduciary agents, and multiple accounts makes it nearly impossible to determine whether anyone has benefitted from a disaster like 9/11.

(note) Just try and find out exactly who is invested in a given major oil company - you immediately enter a maze of front companies, mutual funds and banks who won't discuss their clientele without a court order. The traders who buy and sell oil are even more secretive.

- By January 2000, the CIA knew two bin Laden terrorists and future hijackers had entered the United States and taken up residence in California. The CIA failed to tell the FBI until August 2001... had the FBI arrested the two on material witness warrants - both men were involved in the attack on the U.S.S. Cole - 9/11 might never have happened.

(note) John O'Neill had been booted from the FBI by Aug 2001 - he was the principle investigator of the Cole bombings.

Ugly, ugly, ugly.

And what about after 9/11? That's when peddling fear to the public in order to get support for war became Bush & Co's primary goal.

We had anthrax attacks for a few months, during which time the Patriot Act was passed, signed and implemented. Then came the red-orange-yellow terror alert system, the falsified evidence for Iraqi WMDS, and a massive coordinated media push for an invasion of Iraq - and now noone seems interested in even mentioning the word "Afghanistan" or "Taliban" - even though the Taliban seem to be regaining power.

Afghanistan was just a setup for Iraq - now we're supposed to forget about it, as we did after the Soviets left.

The Iraq war had been in the planning stages ever since the neocons on the Project for a New American Century wrote their manifesto. That's confirmed by Cheney's Energy Task Force Meeting (complete with maps of Iraqi oilfields and lists of suitors). Now the four US-connected oil majors (XOM, CVX, BP, RDS) are vying for control of Iraqi oil, and Bush is refusing to leave Iraq because he'd have to take the oil companies out as well if that happened.

Ugly, ugly, ugly.

So, how would a 9/11 Truthiness member respond to all this information? Let me guess: "But," they'd say, "I only want to talk about what happened on the day of 9/11 - and why do you keep denying that it was a controlled demolition? Plus, the Saudis had nothing to do with it! You must be a left gatekeeper!". That's what you call a broken record/ skipping compact disc propaganda technique - repeat, repeat, repeat.

Um, Matt, what about the bombs found INSIDE the Murrah building?
Posted by: gretavo on Oct 25, 2006 3:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMXMo3Z0qms&eurl=

Anyone who wants to see exactly how 9/11 and the OKCity bombing are related just needs to spend 5 minutes watching the local news reports from the day of the bombing in Oklahoma City linked to above.

It will not only shock a few people to know that sophisticated devices were found inside the building (i.e. not fertilizer truck bombs) but it will prove what many people take issue with in regard to 9/11 Truth--how could we have fallen for such a massive lie, with no one exposing it before now? Despite the efforts of people like retired general Benton Partin, an OKCity Truth activist, most people have no idea that the destruction of the Murrah building was the work of professionals, not a lone right wing crazy.

So Matt, I challenge you to explain this, and why you failed to mention it in your comparison. If Americans need any more proof that there is a vast conspiracy by certain media personalities to impose on us a false version of our own history, then we are indeed a troubled nation.

» clarification Posted by: gretavo
» Truth Deniers Posted by: rwa
one anti-conspiracy story is plenty
Posted by: profmarcus on Oct 25, 2006 4:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
matt, i'm afraid i agree with the individual in the earlier comment who accused you of being obsessed... i would suggest that, in a time when all news can be regarded as either spin or outright propaganda, you take a chill pill and adopt a more zen-like mindset - "i believe everything and i believe nothing..." the deeper you dig yourself into a position, the harder it is to absorb new and, possibly, conflicting information when it comes along... i've learned over the years to begin running rapidly in the opposite direction from anyone carrying a banner, no matter whether it says "there WAS a conspiracy" or "there was NO conspiracy..." your banner-waving on this one has eroded the credibility i had previously granted you... untwist your knickers and move on...

And, yes, I DO take it personally

truth
Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 25, 2006 4:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the Bushies would tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about 9/11 it would end all this speculation. They haven't and they won't because it would mean numerous Bushies in the slammer. If the Congress would impeach the Bushies it would also result in numerous Bushies in the slammer. The Congress won't impeach because it would result in numerous Congress members in the slammer as many of them are involved, also. This is a really big story about really big crimes and we can't get the truth because America is run by lying criminals. IMPEACH ALL THE LIERS.

truth
Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 25, 2006 4:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the Bushies would tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about 9/11 it would end all this speculation. They haven't and they won't because it would mean numerous Bushies in the slammer. If the Congress would impeach the Bushies it would also result in numerous Bushies in the slammer. The Congress won't impeach because it would result in numerous Congress members in the slammer as many of them are involved, also. This is a really big story about really big crimes and we can't get the truth because America is run by lying criminals. IMPEACH ALL THE LIERS.

truth
Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 25, 2006 5:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the Bushies would tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about 9/11 it would end all this speculation. They haven't and they won't because it would mean numerous Bushies in the slammer. If the Congress would impeach the Bushies it would also result in numerous Bushies in the slammer. The Congress won't impeach because it would result in numerous Congress members in the slammer as many of them are involved, also. This is a really big story about really big crimes and we can't get the truth because America is run by lying criminals. IMPEACH ALL THE LIARS.

» RE: Covering Up Some "9/11 Truth" Is Not Among Bush's Many Crimes Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» RE: And the problem with you Americans is ... Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
so have the Israelis apologized for the spying?
Posted by: gretavo on Oct 25, 2006 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nope, they just keep on denying, lying, and probably still spying. I would prefer not to have my country associate with the Saudi dictatorship (or the Kuwaiti one for that matter) so no arguments there. As far as Saudi involvement in 9/11, all we know is that some Saudi passports were involved. Given these things found in New York City on 9/11 a) a Saudi passport and b) celebrating Israeli spies I would think that most people might side with the interior minister on this one--esp. since the neocons who infested the Bushj admin are all pro-Israel hawks with shady backgrounds!

What's that guy crapping on about? An Oklahoma bombing something?
Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au on Oct 25, 2006 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't waste my time reading the rubbish of people that can't think straight. Besides, that Oklahoma thing must be of American parochial interest.

Here in Australia all we know is that we have seen the numerous video recordings, and heard the eyewitness accounts, etc., broadcast right around the world, of the controlled demolitions that took place that day (even flinging human bones on to the roofs of nearby buildings). Aren't you Americans interested in how al Qaeda did it? How they were clever enough not only to fly those planes into the buildings, but to rig the buildings for controlled demolition - which must have taken weeks of clandestine goings-on beforehand - and to set the demolitions off after about an hour or so? You're fools if you're not; if you don't want to re-open the whole thing and get to the bottom of the mystery. You see, if you don't know how they managed to do it the first time, they may do it again - this time with an atomic bomb! (And you can save yourself the trouble of investigating how the third building was rigged for demolition. We know that that wasn't al Qaeda, but Larry Silverstein.)

By the way, I was recently told that "al Qaeda" means "the data base". Do you suppose that Osama bin Laden in his cave in Afghanistan has a spreadsheet on his second-hand Pentium III listing all the associates?

Robert Hoogenboom
Sydney, Australia

the clincher
Posted by: gretavo on Oct 25, 2006 7:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which is kind of funny, when you think about it. In fact, if they did pull that off, they fucking deserve to get away with it. Anyone that clever must know what they're doing.

Not only does Matt resort to the F-bomb here, but what is he saying? That well-executed crimes should be rewarded? Facetious or not, this phrase is an insult to the victims and their families. No one deserves to get away with murder, and even if Matt thinks that being a writer for Rolling Stone requires him to have "an edge" to his writing, he really should be careful--did the Bush admin not get away with lying us into the Iraq war? By Matt's own logic, don't they deserve to get away with it? Honestly, how low will defenders of the official fairy tales sink?

» right on Posted by: sln70
» RE: right on Posted by: rwa
» RE: the clincher Posted by: pegcarter
Matt Taibbi?
Posted by: magistre on Oct 25, 2006 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I only know Mr. Taibbi from this column. Most of it seems to be a personal attack (justified/unjustified?) on Nico Hauptmann. Since I don't personally know either one I can make no judgement on either one. What I can comment on is that Mr. Taibbi's lack of education. He seems to have little beyond the "approved" diet. He certainly knows little about physics. There is an elevated veiw picture of the extant base of one of the WTC buildings. At first it didn't register with me but as I looked at it longer I realized what it was that I saw: There was absolutely no steel left in the building. Mr. Taibbi, please explain to me what melted the steel? Jet fuel doesn't contain the energy (BTUs) to do it unless it has a source of pure oxygen and then the question would be where did the oxygen come from??? Notwithstanding that the structural inegrity of the modern jet is such that if jets slammed into any skyscraper it should have splatted on the surface of the building like an "over-ripe watermelon"!
Mr. Taibbi it would seem that it is you that are guilty of the "intilectual laziness" you accuse others of. Wake up.

» not even if fed pure oxygen Posted by: gretavo
No, Bin Laden doesn't but the CIA did, probably still does.
Posted by: pingoo on Oct 25, 2006 8:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"By the way, I was recently told that "al Qaeda" means "the data base". Do you suppose that Osama bin Laden in his cave in Afghanistan has a spreadsheet on his second-hand Pentium III listing all the associates?"

No, Bin Laden doesn't but the CIA did, probably still does.

The database was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.

When you question,you grow..
Posted by: originalbranek on Oct 25, 2006 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least his article did something of use--we're all talking about this subject again.Any time you have debate,that's the truth sticking it's scary little head out.

» maybe Matt IS on our side! Posted by: gretavo
Great! A new conspiracy I wasn't worried about
Posted by: happiestgirl on Oct 25, 2006 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have always thought myself a reasonable rational person. I first made fun of all 9/11 conspiracy theorists - but what bugged me is not the news reports of the buildings looking like a controlled demolition, but that that was my comment to my husband when we watched the buildings collapse. After research I was definitely conviced that the governments account did not completely add up. Conspiracy? I am still on the fence. Matt's article, however, pretty much convinced me. I had no idea about the Oklahoma city bombing conspiracy theories. Isn't it the more science minded and the more skeptical individuals that should not be thinking wow - recycled propaganda - but should be thinking that there is a little to much coincidence?

Oh, Matt, come ON!
Posted by: monkeywrench on Oct 25, 2006 9:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Matt taibbi:
"p.s. Truthers are going to complain that I still haven't addressed the science claims. That's coming next."

Oh, goody! Can we expect that Matt will be able to explain away the laws of physics with the same deft discourse with which he plasters all 9/11 theorists (many of which are scientists with far more knowledge than that possessed by Mr. Taibbi)? Will he explain why the only steel-framed skyscrapers in history to collapse due to fire were WTC 1, 2 and 7? Will he – staying within the rules of structural physics, that is – be able to explain why WTC 1 and 2 did not topple over, even though they were asymetrically damaged, with much of their outer structure intact (70% of WTC 2's outer framing was untouched; and the outer framing of those buildings constituted 60% of each building's support)? Will Mr. Taibbi, obviously a very acccomplished physicist AND structural engineer, be able to explain away the odds of three steel-framed buildings collapsing neatly into their own footprints due to fire damage (odds: 250,000 to 1), or the odds that matching exercises would have been coincidentally carried out on the same days – and times – of 9/11, the 7/7 London bombings AND the Murrah building bombing (odds: a one followed by FORTY-ONE zeros to 1!!)? Not in a rational world. But I'm sure he'll try anyway, reality be damned.

Mr. Taibbi likes to use the most radical to "explain" the norm; he likes to draw parallels between past bogus speculation and current documented fact to "prove" the falsity of the latter; and, when he cannot refute the facts or the science, he likes to attack the messengers, by again finding the most radical, tinfoil-hat speculators to "prove" that anyone who does not follow the government's flawed explanation must be a kook.

(Don't forget: the government line in 1930's Germany was that the Communists burned the Reichstag, and anyone who believed in a conspiracy was nuts; but during the Nuremburg Trials, it came out that Hitler had, in fact, ordered it done himself – sound familiar?)

The problem is that for the rest of us, especially those who subscribe to Mr. Taibbi's point of view, nasty old reality will eventually rear its ugly head and the truth will come out; but by that time, government and voters will have made critical decisions over the years on the basis of lies and distortions, having been fooled by the likes of Mr. Taibbi once again.

Is this any way to run a democracy?

Wrong E-mail
Posted by: sjclark on Oct 25, 2006 9:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nevermind, postmaster just sent it back.

What is it with you, AlterNet?
Posted by: gourdman on Oct 25, 2006 9:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is it with AlterNet, that you continue to publish the sort of dribble we see in this article by Matt Taibbi?

Is this your idea of being "fair and balanced"-- to denounce those who question the official version as alarmist kooks, eager to find a conspiracy in every national tragedy?

The more one looks at the facts of the 9-11 case, the more things don't add up. Equally disturbing are the government's actions before, during, and after the event, and the fact that there never was a forensic investigation of the WTC site; instead, there was an almost immediate call for war against Afghanistan, although the overwhelming majority of alleged hijackers were Saudis (who conveniently left evidence and documentation behind in their rented cars). Even my 84-year-old mother can see through that transparent lie!

Perhaps AlterNet is fearful that, if it takes a more courageous stand, it will go the way of Yellow Times, which had the audacity to post disturbing war images and was punished for it. So in the meantime, give us all the stories we can handle about Wal-Mart and immigration, and let's discuss the Bush administration's incompetence, while burying the truth: that criminals now occupy the highest levels of goverment and do as they please with little interference from the press.

» One of the basic canards... Posted by: brunowe
» RE: One of the basic canards... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: One of the basic canards... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: One of the basic canards... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: One of the basic canards... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: One of the basic canards... Posted by: pegcarter
» RE: Personally I think AlterNet is very clever Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
thanks for your bravery
Posted by: harrysf on Oct 25, 2006 9:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You deserve credit for publishing more than one article on this subject.

The conspiracy theorists really need to get a life. Or go somewhere else and discuss their wacko theories with themselves, and stop polluting websites by repeating their claims ad nauseum.

» who agrees with you? Posted by: gretavo
» Who agrees with YOU? Posted by: mjabele
» you live in a little bubble Posted by: gretavo
» RE: Who agrees with YOU? Posted by: harrysf
» You are just like Matt! Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: thanks for your bravery Posted by: pegcarter
» RE: thanks for your bravery Posted by: harrysf
» RE: thanks for your bravery Posted by: JoeCraine
Interview with David Ray Griffin
Posted by: rwa on Oct 25, 2006 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you had to distill the most compelling elements of the collapse of the two World Trade Center towers right now, what points are most disturbing?

There are two big ones: One is simply that steel frame, high-rise buildings have never collapsed because of fire, or fire and externally induced damage. Secondly, all such collapses have been caused by explosives and these collapses have at least 10 characteristics of the particular kind of controlled demolition known as controlled implosion, where the building falls basically straight down. When you go through those 10 characteristics, not a single one of them can be accounted for by the official theory, the fire plus impact theory. And then if you said, well okay, let’s say it’s never happened before and it would be very unlikely but let’s say there’s one chance in a hundred, let’s be very generous—that one of them could have occurred. But that all 10 of them could have occurred in the same building and then in two buildings, you’re talking about chances one in a trillion or something like that, so the chance is essentially zero that it could have happened by the official theory.

How could those towers have collapsed into a pile of rubble only a few stories high, when the core of each tower consisted of 47 massive steel columns? You’ve got these 47 columns that go from the sub basements to the top. How could those all have just collapsed into a pile of rubble?

The 9/11 Commission settled that easily. They said the core of each building consisted of a hollow steel shaft that just had elevators and stairwells in it. You can’t get a bigger lie. The unique thing about the towers when they were built was their unique structure of just having the core thing and then the perimeter columns and then trusses that connected the core to the outside, so you’ve got this tremendous amount of space with no pillars whatsoever. So any book you would read about the WTC would talk about those things and they just denied their existence. I mean, it’s just audacious that the press won’t report on those huge lies.

Interview with David Ray Griffin -2
Posted by: rwa on Oct 25, 2006 9:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But wouldn’t the administration have realized that people are going to investigate this? We’re not a nation of dummies.

We are a nation that is very poorly informed by its mainstream media, a nation that has had drilled into it that we are America the Good, we make mistakes but we’re never deliberately evil. We’ve had drilled into us that people who believe in conspiracy theories are idiots, so we wouldn’t want to be one of those. But most importantly we’re a nation with a controlled press, a corporately controlled press. We do not have free press. And in fact, if you want to say that the definition of a free press is one that is not controlled by religion, one can say ours is, because we really have a religion of capitalism–we like to call it free enterprise—and that’s what controls our press, so we do not have a free press any more than the Soviet Union had a free press.

They’ll just say, “He holds the ridiculous theory that explosions planted by our own government brought the building down” but they never say, “Now what’s the evidence?” And they would certainly never bring me or Jim Hoffman or Jim Fetzer on to NBC or ABC or CBS or to say what is the evidence for that.

Interview with David Ray Griffin-3
Posted by: rwa on Oct 25, 2006 9:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Building 7 was 47 stories high and not hit by an airplane. Do we know why it collapsed?

It’s still not covered, even by the 9/11 Commission Report. Building 7 was the least covered of the buildings that collapsed and the least understood, but the most glaring example of potential complicity by the administration.

It is the most obvious because with the Towers, one can think that somehow the planes hitting them caused them to weaken and fall down but with Building 7, it would be the first building in history that was ever brought down entirely by fire alone. And so it’s obviously the biggest embarrassment for the government, so the 9/11 Commission handled Building 7 by simply not mentioning that it collapsed. This should have been a world-shaking event that would have led all insurance companies around the world to say, now we know, steel framed high rise buildings can totally collapse because of fire alone, so we’ve got to up our premiums greatly. But they didn’t even mention this historic event. Now we come to the NIST Commission, the National Institute for Standards and Technology, have put out a report claiming that they have given an explanation of why the World Trade Center towers collapsed. It’s completely bogus but I won’t go into that, I’ll just say, they have not yet released their report about Building 7 because obviously they know they don’t have a plausible story to tell.

» This should be #1 Posted by: YinRising
» But Matt knows Posted by: famouspipeliner
Interview with David Ray Griffin-4
Posted by: rwa on Oct 25, 2006 9:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FEMA could not explain it either?

FEMA did the first investigation, and they came up with a scenario in which maybe timbers from one of the towers came over and set the diesel fuel on fire and turned Building 7 into Towering Inferno. Of course the photographs show that there were fires on only two or three floors of the 47-story building at most. But nevertheless, they say maybe this is what happened, but then at the end of all that they said, the best possible explanation we could give has a very low probability of occurrence. So in other words, they admit they couldn’t explain it.

Wasn’t the collapse captured on video and didn’t it in fact look like a controlled demolition?

It was even more obviously a case of controlled implosion than the Towers, because the Towers, the collapse had to begin near the top where the planes had hit because that was going to be the story. But Building 7 was just a traditional controlled implosion, where it starts from the bottom and the walls fold in on themselves and it collapses into a very tiny pile of rubble. And so to show you what lack of confidence NIST has in its report, a fellow named Ed Haas, who has a muckraker report that you can find on Google, called up the spokesman for NIST, named Michael Newman, and said, you know you’ve got all these physicists who reject the official story and they believe that it was an inside job, why don’t we settle all this by having a debate on national television, between some of these scientists and your NIST scientists? And Newman said no NIST scientist is going to debate. And he’s reiterated that. So he has said nobody from NIST will ever debate their report. In other words, they will not defend it in public, even though it’s a taxpayer supported project and they should be demanded to report it. So that shows you how flimsy the official story is. And they still have not issued a report on it. They will not debate their report on the Towers. Obviously, they’re not going to defend their debate on Building 7—they won’t even issue it, just hope the public forgets about it. Because the press does not keep reminding people that Building 7 did collapse and it’s a total mystery.

Full interview at:
http://wholelifetimes.com/2006/09/griffin0609.html

Holy lack of substance, Batman!
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Oct 25, 2006 9:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is the second time I have read a fluffy article on Alternet from this journalist with an agenda. He cleverly presents his arguments using emotional appeal and superficialities, superficialities that work very well for over half the Unitedstatesian population. Unfortunately, this does not work on critical thinkers. Myself, as a critical thinker, am willing to listen with an open mind to valid arguments, but am once again disappointed by his lack of substance.

He starts his lame argument by trying to link all those who believe that there are unanswered questions, or conspiracies regarding 911, to the most extreme and irrational in the movement. After he does this, he claims he wasn’t indeed doing that, but by that point it was too late to deny he just did what we just read him doing. Duh! He attempts to make those who believe in conspiracy feel shame, and lead those who might potentially begin to doubt, to think that doubters are a bunch of irrational, violent morons. Very clever, Matt. Sadly, you can fool some of the people some of the time.

I will cite two examples of his many worthless, superficial arguments: First, his fluffy argument against the impossibility of the buildings only taking 9 seconds to fall. He gives absolutely no scientific explanation as to how they could fall so quickly following the ‘pancake theory’ (the official government explanation); he tries to make those who don’t buy the pancake-theory explanation out to be fools, but presents absolutely no information to make that illogical explanation seem logical. His only argument is “ Griffin never explains why he thinks the building should have paused a half-second on each floor, but that's why he teaches theology, not engineering.” If Matt really wanted to debunk his argument, he would cite why the floors from above wouldn’t pause a half second, or better yet, why, even a fraction of a second pause before initiation of the fall of the next set of lower floors wouldn’t result in a fall time of well over 9 seconds. For a great physical explanation of why the pancake theory is a bunch of bunk: (janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html).

Secondly, his argument regarding WT7 only addresses why he feels (or those who pull his strings feel) some “conspiracy theorist” explanations of what the motive for destroying WT7 are foolish, but he totally avoids the main issue, that of HOW and WHY it fell, and why the press and the 911 commission have been hush-hush on the topic. The fact that it mysteriously fell and has been kept hush is very odd to me. People can only guess as to why or how it occurred, but it certainly didn’t occur as a result of buildings falling down onto themselves nearby and not touching it that is for sure.

Thank you Alternet for allowing Matt to once again demonstrate his lack of substance; it was quite entertaining! Next article, please.

» RE: Holy lack of substance, Batman! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Holy lack of substance, Batman! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» POLICE it's own RANKS?? Posted by: sln70
» RE: POLICE it's own RANKS?? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» okay.. Posted by: sln70
» RE: okay.. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» :) Posted by: sln70
» RE: POLICE it's own RANKS?? Posted by: JoeCraine
Kevin Tillman/ brother of Pat
Posted by: rwa on Oct 25, 2006 10:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Legacy of 9/11

K.Tillman:

"Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this. "

One big problem with the Oklahoma bombing
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Oct 25, 2006 10:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The two convicted of the crime couldn't have possibly been acting alone. The fact that no other serious investigation took place certainly gives the public good reason to distrust the government, esp. liars like Bush.

I commend you Taibbi
Posted by: JDHURF on Oct 25, 2006 10:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I commend Taibbi for doing what so desperately needs to be done, illustrating the unrestricted ignorance and religiosity of the 9-11 “truth” movement. I have gotten caught up in a few arguments on debate forums regarding this specific issue and with no other topic have I witnessed such religious-like fervor, such a close-minded willingness to accept a premise first and then attempt to vindicate it with the scantiest of evidences; in fact of point the only other area in which I witness such a gratuitous display of such is with religious fundamentalists.

Fantastic job Taibbi! I am eagerly waiting for you next installment.

» RE: I commend you Taibbi Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: I commend you Taibbi - second that! Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: I commend you Taibbi Posted by: JoeCraine
» RE: I commend you Taibbi Posted by: JDHURF
» RE: I commend you Taibbi Posted by: JoeCraine
about holocaust denial....
Posted by: adell on Oct 25, 2006 11:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
obviously it's entirely absurd so I won't address all of Barrington's points... stuff like 'no mass graves' 'no gas chambers' 'no bodies' is all entirely made up without a single shred of proof and thousands of contradictory photos and testimonies. Look up 'death camp' on wikipedia to find out the specifics of how the holocaust was carried out.

The real question is how the hell did the 9/11 Truth movement in anyway get associated with these crazy fucks? However, it's easy to dispel any notion of a similarity: The official story of the holocaust is backed up by thousands of testimonies of not only what had taken place, but EXACTLY WHO PERPETRATED THE ACTS. This is clearly not the case with 9/11, as any evidence as to who physically carried out the attacks is extremely sparse.

THE ANTI-TRUTH MOVENMENT IS BORN
Posted by: atomic on Oct 25, 2006 11:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And so what emerges is a picture of people who can not look at the facts. Till now we associated them with the Republicans who seemed to relish the lies and distortions as they continued to grab power and profit.

What emerges is the anti-conspiracy / truth movement. Arguably the anti-fact or I can't handle the truth movement. Clearly those who arrogantly debunk mitigating factual evidence and circumstances as conspiracy theories when there is real merit to be considered are the real cog mucking up the works.

The 911 truth movement is not a cult. It's a credible unwavering desire to know the truth. Guys like " Matt " are happy believing what they have been taught to think and in his case are satisfied to go a step further and defend their safety of illusion but picking up the "pen" and scribbling down a gauntlet of distortions to impale those simply working to understand.

911 was an inside job wether you understand it or want to believe it. It is by it's nature very complicated and difficult to comprehend which is part of the reason it was possible. Those that perpetrated this crime knew then as they know now that we as a collective we can be taught what to think and can be lead to believe what they tell us to believe.

Everything is not a matter of opinion. There is such a thing as fact thank God, that goes beyond our egos and imagination. "Matt" is arrogant enough to just not care enough about the facts and cocky enough to try and score points as a swash buckling style of ridicule. Nothing special here. Burn past this. There will always be those who claim their compass works better than yours. They don't need the facts and in their own special wonderland all is free game.

RE: The biggest hoax...are Barrington James's own Remarks
Posted by: Jayzer on Oct 25, 2006 11:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mixed in with the manure being spread by 9/11 and Murrah Building conspiracy theorists we have a Holocaust denier. Sweet.

Barrington would have us believe that the Holocaust is a hoax simply because not all 6 million (or whatever the actual figure is) died by being suffocated in gas chambers. Curiously enough, this particular Holocaust denier DOES include some of the other causes of death such as the lack of food and medicine in the camps. True enough, not all the Jews (also Gypsies, homosexuals, Communists and other political dissidents) were murdered by gas chambers. Some were shot, some were subjected to torturous medical "experiments," some were slashed open, others stomped or beaten to death while others were indeed left to starve or to suffer medical neglect. As to whether the final death toll was of 6 million or 6 thousand---granted a significant numerical difference between the two figures, the statistical argument is still fairly obscene.

The key evidence is still to be found in the notes taken at the Wannsee Conference in which the Nazi high command made their decisions on the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question," as they so elegantly put it. That and the findings of the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunals should have laid the nasty little canard of Holocaust Denial to rest a long time ago, but like fungus and highly resistant infections, it just keeps popping up with the rank and foul stubbornness of the stench of a backed-up toilet.

David Chabot
Posted by: dchabot on Oct 25, 2006 11:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt, how much money do they give you to write this bullshit?

» Zero Posted by: eddie torres
Major disinformation effort
Posted by: jwg on Oct 25, 2006 11:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have never seen so many trolls working on one article. The conspiracy theorists must be getting too close.

How about these things?
Posted by: StitchJones on Oct 25, 2006 12:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- Please address Sibel Edmonds' claim that she knows how the attacks were financed. Why is she being gagged?
- Why has the NORAD timeline been revised three times and why did the 9/11 Commission bother publishing a report when two Commisisoners now say in a book that NORAD lied and they wanted to report NORAD to Justice?
- Why were our congressional intelligence leadders meeting on 9/11 with the head of Pakistani intelligence, a guy who had wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta soon before 9/11?
- Who coordinated the war games drills?
- Why did John Ashcroft ignore warnings from David Schippers, a guy who represnted FBI agents who said no one would listen to them about the coming attacks?
- Why did the 9/11 Commission fail to publish Norman Mineta's testimony about the VP tracking the object as it apprached the Pentagon?

Giant robots
Posted by: Perry Logan on Oct 25, 2006 1:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In answer to your query: GIANT ROBOTS

The Reptoids were keeping giant robots in WTC7. That's why it had to be destroyed.

http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

» At last! Posted by: WhuThe?!?
People who have questions are not all crazy
Posted by: mo1912 on Oct 25, 2006 2:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please see link for list of respectable millitary personel and politicians who question the official account and the comments they have made .
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
How many of these do you consider to be delusional conspiracy nuts Matt ?

Pensacola, Oh YEAH!
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Oct 25, 2006 2:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consider this quote from boolicker Matt: "The Pensacola story continues to circulate today, even though it was long ago established that these accounts of hijackers like Saeed Alghamdi living on U.S. military bases resulted from the same error -- confusing the hijackers with men with similar Arab names"

Doesn't this just smack you as totally absurd AND hypocritical? Wait, did you catch it? Let me explain. (This is VERY important if you want to understand how hackjobs like Matt operate.) He is attempting to discredit a news report based around the fact that there is a controversy over whether or not their names were spelled correctly. But in order for this to have any meaning at all, you have to naturally assume THAT THE ORIGINAL LIST OF 19 WAS 100% ACCURATE, YET THAT LIST WAS REPORTEDLY FOUND IN THE TRUNK OF A CAR!?!? WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME THAT THE NAMES ON THAT LIST WERE SPELLED CORRECTLY?

He uses this tactic repeatedly throughout the article. I dont know exactly what the name of the logical fallacy is, it's like a cross between Denying the Antecedent and Garbage-in Garbage out. This is how you prove these people are fakes. At the root level they accept the official story, even though they claim to be objective. They form their logic around things which any rational person cannot accept. The idea that the list of 19 hijackers was totally correct on the day of 9/11 is about as absurd as the idea of the hijackers themselves. Yet he uses that list as a logical foundation from which to base many of his attacks. And he wonders why we LOL at him and others like him. LOL

» RE: Pensacola, Oh YEAH! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Pensacola, Oh YEAH! Posted by: Iconoclast421
Read it and weep: "I, Left Gatekeeper" by Matt Taibbi
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 25, 2006 2:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This deserves to be seen by anyone reading this thread:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1001-24.htm
(now Common Dreams is a 'left gatekeeper'? Hilarious!)
Excerpt:

"Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dick, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dick. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fucking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fucking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.

BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

(continued)

Matt's "I, Left Gatekeeper" - continued
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 25, 2006 2:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters? Shit, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

What do you say to that?

» Does anybody know Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Does anybody know Posted by: Joshua Holland
» That's quite the answer Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: That's quite the answer Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Joshua, you disappoint me... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» WhuThe, you make me laugh... Posted by: mjabele
» I honestly can't answer that Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» I can answer many things. Posted by: mjabele
» I think in the long run Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Don't wait too long... Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Ok, interesting... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Ok, interesting... Posted by: rwa
» RE: Ok, interesting... Posted by: Joshua Holland
RE: The biggest hoax...
Posted by: babs on Oct 25, 2006 2:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Get Barrington James (fey name that) off this site and back to his drooling 13 year-old white power pals.

Hate isn't on the menu today so bugger off.

» Are you a Holocaust denier rwa? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Spanking the Truth: Dispatches from WTC #7
Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 25, 2006 2:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looks like Matt's next book already has a free PR machine installed and operating independently. Love him or hate him, there's no such thing as bad PR to a journalist.

Start cashing those advance checks, Matt, they're as good as printed.

What does the Bush family have on Ed Asner?
Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 25, 2006 3:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's how the Bush family silenced Ed Asner:

After filming episodes of the 5th season of the Mary Tyler Moore show (late 1974), Asner went on a madcap 2-week romp in Paris with co-star Ted Knight. Photos "fell" into the hands of George HW Bush, who became director at CIA in early 1976.

In 1981, Asner ensconsed himself inside the Screen Actors Guild for four years while George HW Bush took over the US Vice Presidency. From Asner's relatively protected position, he was able to safely take pot shots at US policy in Central America.

However, a recent alliance with Jay Leno led to Ed's falling out with Leno's archrival, David Letterman. A pro-Letterman fraternity at the University of Indiana recently "uncovered" envelopes full of photos from a 1967 meet-and-greet road trip to Yale's Skull-and-Bones "Future Leaders of a Republican Society" dance.

Somehow, copies of the 1974 photos of Ted and Ed were included with the 1967 photos. The Letterman camp threatened to use the photos unless Asner recanted his support for 9?11 Truth. This also led directly to a 2% drop in Leno's audience over the summer of 2006, owing to Asner's control of the Nielson Families.

Letterman's stake? Well, interviews with certain Saudi princes indicate that the original targets for the 9?11 hijackers were not, in fact, the WTC buildings. Instead, the hijackers' primary target was 53 West 52nd Street - the home of the International Vulcan Conspiracy (IVC). Which is next door to the Ed Sullivan Theater at 51 West 52nd Street. They just couldn't find it.

BTW: Knight's career never recovered from those fleeting moments with Ed in Paris. Despite a brief popularity surge around 'Caddyshack', the only paying gig Knight could get on network TV was "Too Close For Comfort," set in the gay capital of America.

» Man ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Man ... Posted by: eddie torres
What Really, Really Happened on 9/11 - Part 1
Posted by: mesoanarchy on Oct 25, 2006 3:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay all you 9/11 conspiracy freaks, I'm going to explain exactly how Osama Bin Laden's (OBL) heinous crew of extremists pulled off 9/11.

-------------

Just after aiding the U.S. in fighting Russians in Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden turned his attention to Kosovo and fighting for Muslin, I mean Muslim ideals (after all, I'm not creating this out of whole cloth, or whatever that saying is). However, when Osama realized he was being double-crossed by U.S. intelligence services, he decided he'd show them who the "Original Gangsta" really is.

So, OBL went home to Saudi Arabia (S.A.) and extracted all his cash from his various accounts in S.A. and in Switzerland. He then told some friends of the Bin Laden family that he needed some invested funds for a construction project - condos, I think - in the Afghani hills.

With all that loot, OBL was transported to Afghanistan by camel. Why didn't he just take a private jet? Well, duh! That would have ruined his street cred, you freakin' 9/11 conspiracy wing nuts!

Armed with his laptop and a new technology that didn't exist on the public level called, wireless, OBL disappeared into a series of caves to plot his Project Bojinka, wait, make that Project Get Back, to bring down the war-mongering, capitalist dogs that are the American people (did you read that sentence, you "Bush Did It" 9/11 shits!!! I'm a liberal socialist Maoist Hunter Thompson-esque writer for the prestigious all purpose mag, "Rolling Nation Stone Net", damn it!).

OBL's first task was to come up with a name for his peeps. He thought and thought and thought. Then suddenly, in what can only be termed - in retrospect - a stroke of genius, the name came - "The Base" (this is according to emails I received from well-placed government operatives who were on the phone brainstorming with OBL when this event occurred). "Better yet," OBL was purported to have said, "I'll call it 'al Qaeda' to give the name a menacing, extremist Muslim Middle East, blame it on Iraq-type of feeling!"

OBL then paid disaffected Middle Eastern college students to build websites to spread the word of this, "al Qaeda-thing." (the CINSA uncovered this money trail through documents supplied by the Bank of Afghanistan).

Ahead of the modern-day viral marketing curve, OBL recognized the value of video. He then directed and produced a series of propaganda films for his new websites showing training methods of his al Qaeda troops (never mind that he used U.S. playscapes and spliced in Muslims sneaking up on ant hills for, chocolate-covered ants (you drooling 9/11 Demolition Derby, blankety-blank wads, get off the farm! You think I'm a racist, too! Muslims understand the delicacy that is chocolate-covered ants!).

All of this went unnoticed during the latter years of the Clinton presidency, as he was mired in Lewinsky-gate, by a cabal of Republicans readying voting machines to steal the upcoming presidential election from Al Gore (see, I TOLD you I'm a liberal Maoist - and my Republican conspiracy is backed by the truisms of factiness!)

The watershed moment for OBL came when George Walker Bush became president. Soon after Bush was sworn in, Bin Laden sent Bush an email (according to shredded Google documents, OBL conned a secretly-Muslim Google employee to provide him with a secure email address, so he sent OBL the prototype of what became the beta version of "Gmail").

The email read: "George, this is Saddam Hussein. I now have you, you ex-coke head in a tidy package! When I bring down important architectural representations of America's financial might, tell your father, that's what he gets for invading my country.
-Respectfully,
OBL"

What Really, Really Happened on 9/11 - Part 2
Posted by: mesoanarchy on Oct 25, 2006 3:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush, tired from listening to Karl Rove crow about the Swiss accounts and other sundry perks he provided for key Supreme court members to get Bush in the White House (see Carl Woodward's bestseller, "How I sucked the Bush Administration's - Straw" for a full account of this event), needed to get away to his ranch In Crawford, Texas. Because of Rove's ranting, Bush misread Osama's email. Thinking the first sentence read - "This is Saddam Hussein. I now have coke for your head in a tidy package," Bush eschewed reading the remainder of the email, flew to Crawford and awaited delivery of the drug.

Fortunately for the Bush administration, fate stepped in to save the day - sort of. In his haste, Bush left the OBL email on his Oval Office desk, where it was found by Condoleeza Rice. Knowing Bush's mental state, she immediately called Pat Robertson and Tim Lahaye. Rice instructed them to intercept Bush in Crawford and perform a pre-coke binge, Christian intervention.

Rice then took the email to VP Dick Cheney, who immediately called Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. The three, unable to decipher the message beyond the obvious peril to Bush's mental health, traveled across the Potomac River to the Pentagon to get an intelligence assessment of the remainder of the email.

However, after meetings with Pentagon officials, neither military experts nor CINSA experts were able to derive a full understanding of the e-mail’s deeply-encrypted and multi-contextual message.

----------------------

Back in his caves, Bin Laden was receiving information directly from the White House through an ex-Jew-turned-Muslim-extremist plant named Jack Abramoff. Abramoff, a friend of casino-loving indigenous Americans (Indians! You call them Indians, you un-PC, 9/11 holographic airplane-believing quacks!) and Capitol Hill corporate lobbyists alike, fed OBL pertinent information through White House insiders and members of the “Synagogue Underground,” Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Pearle.

With an eye on Washington and eyes in Washington, OBL decided to act on his next plan of action. Bin Laden arranged for fake passports for 19 al-Qaeda agents. Their destination? America. Their task? Learn to fly commercial jets. You see, in his mad genius, Bin Laden realized the following: the financial institutions need to be tall enough for maximum visual impact when they were “taken down,” - so, the buildings chosen were the World Trade Center twin towers; that the only way to effectively destroy these buildings in front of the world was to use hijacked airplanes commandeered by his own al-Qaeda agents, and; that any message he sent to his followers via websites and videos within those website was sufficiently cryptic enough to fool even the most experienced U.S. intelligence agent.

However, OBL’s master stroke was to send these hijackers-to-be to learn to fly under the nose of President Bush’s brother, Jeb, in Florida and under the nose of ex-POW, and Arizona Senator, John McCain. With his Western education, Osama was able to innately understand that Jeb Bush would be too distracted by the threat that hurricanes posed to his state to care about known al-Qaeda operatives. Likewise, Bin Laden knew McCain would be distracted with the burgeoning illegal Mexican immigrant population in his state and its draining effect on the Arizonans’ ability to be gainfully employed.

Bin Laden through others’ eyes, had his hands on the pulse of the United States. He had a plant at the center of U.S. politics and operatives strategically scattered across the U.S. blending in with Americans by snorting piles of cocaine, making regular visits to strip clubs, dating white women, and throwing cash around like they have it to burn, thereby only feeding American bias that all young Muslims are the rich, spoiled children of oil barons.

What Really, Really Happened on 9/11 - Part 3
Posted by: mesoanarchy on Oct 25, 2006 3:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
His plan was demonically beautiful.

With his operatives trained, OBL only needed to settle on a date to enact his operation. In a typically liberal Western history class entitled, “The U.S. Role in World Politics," OBL learned that CINSA-backed Chilean military leader Augusto Pinochet led his coup in Argentina on September 11, 1973. To Bin Laden, this was the golden date. He would exact a measure of revenge for being hung out to dry by the CINSA by bringing down America on the same date they used to take over Chile (the use of 9/11 wasn’t some occult date passed down by the Illuminati to the Freemasons to the forefathers of our country to later use in the planning of the layout of Washington, D.C… its use as a date was as simple as a vengeful Middle Easterner wanting revenge on the US of A, you despicable, paranoid, uneducated, X-Files-lovin’ conspiracy around every corner ---- BUFFS!).

---------------------

Speed up to September 11, 2001.

In a boon unseen even to Bin Laden, September 11 presented the U.S. with a heretofore unheard of confluence of events. Early that fateful morning, the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), decided to run wargame drills involving the Air Force and the Navy. Fighter jets were assigned to perform fly-overs in the East Coast and Atlantic Ocean (Operation Vigilant Guardian) with an eye on overseas incoming jets. Planes were sent to Canada and Alaska (Operation Northern Vigilance) to protect out northernmost border. The ground version of this wargame exercise was performed by FEMA. FEMA officials and workers arrived in New York City for Biowarfare Exercise, “Tripod II” and set up a command post on NYC’s Pier 29 at the behest of Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

Those who believe these exercises represented some sort of purposeful diversionary
tactics are insane with conspiracy tales floating through their heads. You must understand that there was a freshly-minted $289 million defense budget, signed by former President Bill Clinton, to spend. It had additional monies earmarked for research funding. So, who better to put those research dollars to use for the prospect of defending our country, but the Defense Department? Again, there’s no mystery here – just unintentionally bad timing – so move along, there’s nothing to see here.

Also on the morning of September 11, 19 hijackers hypnotically-hell-bent on destroying America moved into place. Mohammed Atta, the main U.S. emissary for Bin Laden left his calling card – everywhere. He had a videotape for flying commercial jets and airline uniforms in luggage that didn’t transfer from his Portland, Maine connector flight to Boston’s Logan Airport. Left in his car were the “final night” instructions for the hijacking, and maps of New England and Boston. Also left behind was the extremist-Muslim calling card – a Koran. Surely OBL instructed Atta to leave these items behind – for FBI posterity.

While his operatives boarded planes in the U.S., OBL calmly sat in his caves, laptops in front of him, undoubtedly watching CNN, MSNBC, and FOX News streams. While Bin Laden sat smiling, waiting for the inevitable, President Bush sat in a classroom in Florida, sharing his love for education by reading with elementary school children (and just because I’m a liberal doesn’t mean I can’t be bipartisan and show some love for Bush you bleeping, Bush went to Florida for plausible denial addicts!).

When the first plane hit, the Google employee who hooked up OBL with the pre-beta version of Gmail and Abramoff, who turned on his Jewish faith to aid the Holy Jihad, knew the deal. They knew the parts they played were leading to a new world order.

What Really, Really Happened on 9/11 - Part 4
Posted by: mesoanarchy on Oct 25, 2006 3:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A new world order in which Muslims extremists take what they feel is their rightful place at the top of the world’s political mountain. A new world order where Jihadist vengeance and preemptive war become the norm. A new world order where protecting the natural resource of oil and oil fields for Muslim extremist profits becomes a hyper-nationalistic chant. A new world order where, if you bow to the East, and pay the right Muslims, you too can curry favor in what is viewed as a world-wide government.

And today, somewhere in his caves, Osama Bin Laden, son of Saudi financial royalty, is smiling.

p.s. If you think our government could pull 9/11 off when they couldn’t even decipher a simple email, then you’re a fool and a bleeping bucket-fuck. And if the U.S. government actually could have manufactured 9/11 then they fucking deserve to rule the world, using CINSA-created Muslim extremists as pawns on their grand chessboard.

» Mesoanarchy is on the right track Posted by: eddie torres
The same old bromides
Posted by: anna banana on Oct 25, 2006 4:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...most reporters don't think it's a serious enough issue to bother with twice..."

Now where have we heard this crap before? Let's see, was it Watergate and Nixon? Wasn't that the rationale of all those lazy, obeisant flacks who ran from that story like it was the plague?

I don't know from adam about the 9/11 conspiracy reports, although I have no doubt that the current administration gained enormously from those events, and that I wouldn't put anything past them. What I wonder about is why, with all the things there are to report about, we see someone devoting so much space in an attempt to embarrass anyone who doesn't buy into the "imcompetence theory." Apparently this twerp is fan of the "coincidence theory" that we hear from Limbaugh, O'Reilly and the rest of those advocates of mass murder. Personally, I think someone should check how many paychecks this hack is getting, and from whom. It just doesn't make sense for anyone to pay so much attention to something he doesn't think was possible.

» RE: The same old bromides Posted by: pegcarter
Please Wake Up
Posted by: Ubermensch on Oct 25, 2006 4:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so glad to see so many people that have posted against this article. Reading this is almost like reading Popular Mechanics' Debunking 911 issue all over again.

For those of us that have realized that 9/11 is a false-flag operation pulled off by the American/Israeli Axis, please visit:

www.Signs-of-the-Times.org

For the most part, this is one of the only websites that I am able to trust on a daily basis. Alternet.org is a good news website for some stuff; but it is obviously lacking truth in a lot of aspects.

Joe Reedy
Posted by: Joeraider on Oct 25, 2006 4:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading the faulty logic in Matt's first trivial article, I mentioned that, contrary to his reasoning that the Bush crowd wasn't smart enough to pull this off and leave no evidence, that they had left plenty of evidence. That's why almost 60 percent of this country believes there are other probabilities.

When I saw a video showing a picture of a blonde woman standing in the opening where a plane hit the World Trade Center, my heart broke. Here was a woman who went to work on a normal day and suddenly found herself staring into an abyss. Did she survive? Who knows. But she did survive the initial impact and fire. Matt doesn't bother to explain how this happened. In his closed, immature head, he blindly accepts that heat insufficient to incinerate a human on contact could still cause a massive skyscraper to fall.

Matt likens the resultant skepticism about the Bush Administration's 9/11 theory to theories about the Oklahoma City Bombing. I watched the Power Hour Video, "9/11: In Plane Sight" and found it revealing. It too, mentions Oklahoma City, but the context is subtly different than what Matty boy would like you to believe.

Oklahoma City is mentioned not to set off conspiracy theories. The video plays over 2 dozen local news reports from OC that day in which the discovery of two more bombs are mentioned. Reporters on the scene, stating they had confirmed this with police investigators, say there were other bombs.

What surprised me about this was that I had never heard of the possible existance of multiple bombs in Oklahoma City. The local news reports were never shown nationally and the major news stations failed to mention them. I've since shown the video to several other people, none of whom could recall hearing about multiple bombs. Why is that?

The American media is rife with individuals like Matt - all full of themselves because they have a voice the common guy does not. Propagandists like O'Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, Cal Thomas, etc., etc., etc., dominate all forms of media. And they are never held accountable for their daily falsehoods. Matt's just one of these guys and, after reading his latest failed attempt to dupe intelligent, I'd like to "heet" him too,

» RE: Joe Reedy Posted by: rwa
Conspiracy "theories"
Posted by: willymack on Oct 25, 2006 4:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sure many, if not most Alternet readers know fully well what a theory is and why the word is misused when describing different opinions or alternatine explanations to an event or events. Theories are the end process of observing factual occurrences, such as the damage done in Oklahoma City or the WTC. The facts are first put to the question: What is the cause? (cause & effect). Then, explanations (hypotheses) are posed for experimental testing. The results of these tests MUST be reproducible and consistent with the proven use of scientific method. Once this is accomplished, independent testing, using the exact same method must produce the same result as the original to formulate what is called a theory. Works pretty well for electricty aeronautics, gravity, and a host of other scientific disciplines. Now, when scientists and engineers, respected in their fields, say the WTC towers were probably deliberately demolished, I would tend to believe them because they KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, and have no reason to lie and no political position to defend. The same scientific rigor must be used to go beyond their opinions, or hypotheses. There is much resistance to ANY further ivvestigation, and that in itself is suspicious. The other aspects of the 9/11 tragedy deserve no less intense scrutiny and should be enthusiastically supported by the bushies, but, of course, that'll never happen if they can help it. So there it is, the crime of the century, covered up by a regime that's done nothing but lie to us from day one. Conspiracy theory? There's no theory-not yet, and maybe never, and the REAL perpetattors get off scot-free.

» Theory-a very misused term Posted by: WhuThe?!?
Bush's Useful Idiots
Posted by: rwa on Oct 25, 2006 6:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By Tony Judt

10/25/06 "LRB" -- -- Why have American liberals acquiesced in President Bush’s catastrophic foreign policy? Why have they so little to say about Iraq, about Lebanon, or about reports of a planned attack on Iran? Why has the administration’s sustained attack on civil liberties and international law aroused so little opposition or anger from those who used to care most about these things? Why, in short, has the liberal intelligentsia of the United States in recent years kept its head safely below the parapet?

What distinguishes the worldview of Bush’s liberal supporters from that of his neo-conservative allies is that they don’t look on the ‘War on Terror’, or the war in Iraq, or the war in Lebanon and eventually Iran, as mere serial exercises in the re-establishment of American martial dominance. They see them as skirmishes in a new global confrontation: a Good Fight, reassuringly comparable to their grandparents’ war against Fascism and their Cold War liberal parents’ stance against international Communism. Once again, they assert, things are clear. The world is ideologically divided; and – as before – we must take our stand on the issue of the age. Long nostalgic for the comforting verities of a simpler time, today’s liberal intellectuals have at last discovered a sense of purpose: they are at war with ‘Islamo-fascism’

It is one thing for the US unconditionally to underwrite Israel’s behaviour (though in neither country’s interest, as some Israeli commentators at least have remarked). But for the US to imitate Israel wholesale, to import that tiny country’s self-destructive, intemperate response to any hostility or opposition and to make it the leitmotif of American foreign policy: that is simply bizarre.

Bush’s Middle Eastern policy now tracks so closely to the Israeli precedent that it is very difficult to see daylight between the two. It is this surreal turn of events that helps explain the confusion and silence of American liberal thinking on the subject (as well, perhaps, as Tony Blair’s syntactically sympathetic me-tooism). Historically, liberals have been unsympathetic to ‘wars of choice’ when undertaken or proposed by their own government. War, in the liberal imagination (and not only the liberal one), is a last resort, not a first option. But the United States now has an Israeli-style foreign policy and America’s liberal intellectuals overwhelmingly support it.

The alacrity with which many of America’s most prominent liberals have censored themselves in the name of the War on Terror, the enthusiasm with which they have invented ideological and moral cover for war and war crimes and proffered that cover to their political enemies: all this is a bad sign. Liberal intellectuals used to be distinguished precisely by their efforts to think for themselves, rather than in the service of others. Intellectuals should not be smugly theorising endless war, much less confidently promoting and excusing it. They should be engaged in disturbing the peace – their own above all.

Just too bizzare
Posted by: danielgeery on Oct 25, 2006 7:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I surely don't have any answers, but I do recommend these videos. Years ago I saw a video on how a controlled demolition is done, and all I can say is these videos remind me of that one.

It is exceedingly difficult and risky to have a building fall "into its own footprint." Which is why folks in that business get some mighty big bucks.

And there is no doubt that our government wanted to go to war with Iraq, and needed a pretext for doing so. I know there's some nutcase ideas out there, but I also think there are a lot of questions left unanswered.

3 Videos of Building 7

Main tower collapse

Seriously?
Posted by: dichotomy on Oct 25, 2006 7:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rolling Stone?
In defense of Rolling Stone, I do remember a time (long long ago) when they were unafraid to step on toes...those days are long gone. They are as mainstream as Maxim.
How anyone could buy what this administration is spoon feeding us is beyond me.
Matt, take off the blinders. You have been had!
By the way, where in any of the Pentagon photos, IS THE PLANE?! Please, show me a plane. Explain how any plane could get within miles of the Pentagon's airspace unstopped.
Never mind, Matt...go back to sleep.

We're all drooling flakes
Posted by: opeluboy on Oct 25, 2006 7:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taibbi joins the obnoxious Penn & Teller and the usually brilliant Alex Cockburn on the anti-conspiracy bus. Big deal. Have a nice ride.

Gore Vidal just joined my side, that being the drooling flakes and tinfoil hat crowd that find it easy to believe our government is comprised of liars, thieves and murderers who would do anything required to retain power.

Also recently arriving at the conclusion that 9-11 was an inside job are Bill Christison, Ray McGovern and now Robert David Steele. But what would these three know about covert ops? They only spent decades in the CIA, so obviously Taibbi has the upper hand here, having cleverly followed Kerry around in a gorilla suit, ala Clouseau. Or was it a minky suit?

The point is it makes no difference how many scientists, engineers, scholars, military officers, intelligence officials or whatevers declare that this tragedy was at the very least allowed by this administration, there will be Democrats and so-called liberals who will still say we are all nuts and refuse to discuss it.

At this point it is worth remembering that some of these probably think Hillary Clinton is a Democrat.

The core of the issue
Posted by: tiellis on Oct 25, 2006 8:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These hysterical ad-hominem attacks on those who doubt the official story of 9/11 are getting a bit wearisome...

But let's forget all the circumstantial evidence for a moment and focus on the core of the issue as to what actually happened on 9/11. I refer, of course, to the steel core of the Twin Towers--all 47 steel columns.

I only ask those who ridicule and excoriate the so-called "conspiracy theorists" to tell me one thing. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy is neither gained nor lost in any reaction--the energy output must exactly equal the energy input.

How, pray tell, could the impact of a jetliner (which the towers had been specifically designed to withstand, and did in fact withstand for over an hour), a quickly-consumed jet fuel explosion, and burning office furnishings on 3 or 4 stories of a hundred-story building--carpets, drapes, chairs, papers, computers, etc. (none of which have much potential energy and in fact much of which was designed to be fire-retardant), plus the gravitational force of the top fifth of the buildings on the presumably weakened steel columns on the impact side of the building--how did all of these inputs generate the massive energy necessary to cause the entire building to collapse symmetrically at near free-fall rate right through itself into its own footprint, pulverizing the concrete in pyroclastic flows on the way down?

Why did the lower 4/5ths of these steel frame buildings offer no resistance at all to the downward momentum of the disintegrating top fifth?

This is rather like taking a five-car freight train, running it headlong into a 25-car freight train, and having it pass right through it nonstop, pulverizing itself and the larger train as it goes, and never leaving the track. Starting from zero velocity, no less!

Until someone can explain how such an event could occur, in total violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics, without collateral energy from demolition charges, all the ridicule in the world will not sway me from my conviction that what we saw that day was the deliberate, controlled demolition of three buildings.

I have no idea who did it or why; this remains to be investigated. But I no longer have the slightest doubt about what actually happened to those three buildings. You don't need an MIT degree to understand the First Law of Thermodynamics.

» RE: The core of the issue Posted by: Joshua Holland
The Conspiracists Aren't Completely Nuts Nor Are They All Right
Posted by: eyejam on Oct 26, 2006 1:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm waiting for a consensus of reputable structural engineers to suppport the "Truthers" claims. Until then I think we should all be very skeptical. Yes, there are many complicating anomalies surrounding the event. I believe it's also true that the military, the FAA, and all other relevent institutions were completey suprised, overwhelmed, and unprepared--incompetent even. We were punked. Much could've been done to stop 9/11 that wasn't done. 9/11 has proven to be an all too convenient opportunity for this administration to fulfill and expand an agenda: in many ways it was the best thing that could've happened for them. (Without it, they'd be long gone by now.) The billions in redirected into the military, crony private contractors, and corporate giants would be incentive enough for war, but to destroy the WTC in such a complicated and unlikely way: logic makes this hard to swallow. Simple explanations are usually the best ones.

I too would like to hear more of the truth, but heaps of circumstancial evidence do not make for a completely compelling case.

Verifiable Facts for Matt, PM and the others who Think MOre than 33 miles of Steel can be more than
Posted by: JoeCraine on Oct 26, 2006 1:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Find the Commercial Airplane - Oh, gosh I can't!
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/index.html#911video
Sorry that these are altered videos, but they are "official" altered videos. And, what's that white smoke coming from the flying whatzit? Wonder what an unaltered video would show? Or one of the other 60+ videos of the event?

Sorry for the name of the URL, but these are real pictures - no viruses that I can tell, but scan 'em anyway!

Brittle columns:
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/015.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/108.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/109.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/110.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/112.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/126.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/164.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/166.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/167.html
amazing how they broke without bending! And those 45 degree breaks of 2 inch thick box columns - always happens when crap falls straight down!

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/166.html particularly shows what happen to structural steel when outward pressures are applied to it - it breaks into nice neat, unbent, 30 foot sections, even the inner 47 columns that must have had magic pressure applied (hey, probability theory permits these broadstroke assumptions favoring the president, just don't use them for your pet theory Mr. UFO man!)

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/113.html
and the amzing WTC 5 (in the background) - a raging fire, but it's tiny columns didn't give in. Better construction! Also, funny that a fire so hot it weakened the 2-inch thick box columns on the first floor couldn't melt the rebar also in 113.

Empty craters in the other buildings
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/010.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/011.html
caused by the magnetic forces between the falling steel aggregating the cut (oh, worng word!) steel into clumps that made those nice round, empty holes in the nearby buildings. The steel was so hot that, after it fell through the floors of the other buildings, it melted itself and everything it brought with it! Somehow, though, it forgot to burn the surrounding structure - oh well, just another 911 anomoly easily explained by outlier probability theory.

You recall what the 911 commission report said about these - same thing it said about WTC 7.

These remind me, just like you matt, of the murrah building where a single truck bomb out front caused a circular cut out of the building with a further cutout in the outer diameter! These shaped fertilizer bombs are very effective.

The there is the respect for the deceased of 911 - bits all over the place - remember?
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/165.html
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/167.html
Ah, but, we had to clean it up quickly before OBL found out how messy it was, after all, by the time these pictures were taken, our, so far, clueless president managed not only to identify the organizer but 100% of the actual suicide bombers. No wonder he engenders so much support!
Anyway, they were already dead and the relatives weren't supposed to see this violation of the dead, huh?
Ha, gotcha! These construction guys all knew that the body parts were stuck inbetween the collapsed floors, so the parts couldn't be on top where they were walking! Our government has great respect for all.

Heated to the "bending point" by 8000 gallons of Jet Fuel
Posted by: JoeCraine on Oct 26, 2006 1:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The smoke that went down:
http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/077.html
just before WTC 2 collapsed, the building was so energized that, like a fart before the poop, it squeezed out an enormous gust of concrete dust from the lower regions of WTC. And those hot spots are dripping jet fuel that was waiting f or an inconvenient time to burn. Prof Jones is just a kook with no background in pyrotechnics.



More "waiting" jet fuel

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/259.html



Then the concrete dust changed colors:

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/066.html

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/294.html

NIST was not worried about this as it always happens when steel structures collapse in a fire. 911 commission had the same explanation as they had for WTC 7, again.



The smoke that went up so hard it carried debris with it:

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/213.html

Hey, haven't you ever been around a campfire - the wood sparks go up - makes sense that a fire as hot as that produced by "JET FUEL" would carry a few pieces of steel and pulverized concrete with it. PM missed this point - but next edition.



One of my favorites - WTC, brought down by fire, laid its outer walls neatly on the debris:

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/057.html



Finally, Matt, the fire was so hot at the top of the two towers that it set all the WTC buildings (but, really, none of the others in the area) on fire and totally incinerated the vehicles, like this bus;

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/194.html

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/195.html

in the area. Course, it wasn't hot enough to melt the 32nd inch thick steel of the bus - better construction, I guess!



The fire found these cars, too:

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/193.html

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/196.html

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/206.html

http://www.bubba.com/911large/slides/207.html

Sorry for the length of this.

BAD THEATRE @ MSM
Posted by: Hal on Oct 26, 2006 1:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow…

The exchanges here between AlterNet and others rather say it all. In other words, this thread is peppered with comments by staff writer Joshua Holland defending M. Taibbi’s mock journalism via 911. Thus, staff continues to pump the apparent party line at AlterNet (with most of the public pseudo “left” and of course, the “right”).

MSM LINE – the 911 Truth Movement is essentially worthless. We’re told 911 cover-up enforced by virtually an entire DC-MSM establishment can only really be about petty or irrelevant factors better swept under the rug. Subtext: there is no “conspiracy”. At least none besides the official one and certainly no real investigation required.

So, like a chief argument foisted for Iraq War Inc, it’s happened – and get over it.

A blatant 911 cover-up of the most seminal attack on U.S. soil since Pearl Harbor is accountable for the most grotesque of public acts imaginable over the last five years. That includes blood money war and America ruled by a de facto corporate crime state for the foreseeable future.

But it takes no brain trust to know a nation hijacked and taken for a ride.

A constant message defending the status quo 911 cover-up and its offspring is illegitimate to the core. That doesn’t mean denouncing the message is necessarily a judgment on the messenger.

However, when MSM messengers are this consistently skewed and bankrupt of what it takes to cover the most significant event of the past 60 years? Well, it doesn’t take a reporter to spot phony journalism. This is bad theatre and it’s growing worse.

» RE: BAD THEATRE @ MSM Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: BAD THEATRE @ MSM Posted by: Hal
11 Features of Controlled Demolitions
Posted by: LeftWright on Oct 26, 2006 2:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Courtesy of David Ray Griffin from The Hidden History of 9-11-2001 pp85-90)

Sudden Onset: In controlled demolition, the onset of the collapse is sudden.

Straight Down: The most important thing in a controlled demolition of a tall building close to other buildings is that it comes straight down, into, or at least close to, its own footprint.

Almost Free-Fall Speed: Buildings brought down by controlled demolition collapse at almost free-fall speed.

Total Collapse: Through the careful placement of explosives a controlled demolition achieves a near total collapse of the target building.

Sliced Steel: In controlled demolitions of steel-frame buildings, explosives are used to slice the steel columns and beams into pieces.

Pulverization of Concrete and other Materials: Another feature of controlled demolitions is the production of a lot of dust, because explosives powerful enough to slice steel will pulverize concrete and most other non-metallic substances into tiny particles.

Dust Clouds: Yet another common feature of controlled demolitions is the production of dust clouds, which result when explosions eject the dust from the building with great energy.

Horizontal Ejections: Another common feature of controlled demolitions is the horizontal ejection of other materials, besides dust, from those areas of the building in which explosives are set off.

Demolition Rings: Still another common feature of collapses induced by explosions are demolition rings, in which a series of small explosions run rapidly around a building.

Sounds Produced by Explosions: The use of explosives to induce collapses produces, of course, sounds caused by the explosions.

Molten Steel: An 11th feature that would be expected only if explosives were used to slice the steel columns would be molten steel.

All these features were present and observed at the Twin Towers and WTC7 on 9/11.

Kind of makes one think, doesn't it?

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

costing alternet credibility
Posted by: siamdave on Oct 26, 2006 3:07 AM   
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about all this kind of raving does is make people wonder what other nonsense alternet is pushing. the whole 911 'official' consipracy theory is such an obvious nest of lies and nonsense that anyone so anxious to attack those who are looking for the truth - or carry their ravings like this halfwitted piece - is suspect by association. There's an interesting take on the WTC collapse here, from a perspective I haven't seen before, called 911 thought experiment

The government 911 conspiracy theory
Posted by: bernarda on Oct 26, 2006 4:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe among the many responses above this has already been mentioned, but 19 guys with box cutters--several who have been shown to still be alive--is a conspiracy theory.

The 911 Commission didn't even discuss the collapse of WCT7. FEMA said that the only hypothesis they had was very improbable.

The NIST can't get its story straight.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon."

Now no more "pancake" theory. The other 911 conspiracy theorists have been shown to be correct on at least one point.

How did failure of the south face of WCT1 and the east face of WCT2 cause symetrical failure of the two buildings?

As to WTC7, the NIST didn't investigate it for years.

"When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by early 2007.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

*

An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

The government 911 conspiracy theory Continued
Posted by: bernarda on Oct 26, 2006 4:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and



*



Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.



This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements. "



So, once again, a local failure caused a symetrical collapse of the entire building. The NIST didn't find any evidence of blast or controlled demolition first of all because it didn't look.



Read the whole document with a critical mind. "

One witness' opinion
Posted by: Andrew Edwards on Oct 26, 2006 4:44 AM   
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I happened to see the second plane hit from rather close up. I was in a building only a few hundred yards away, and was schocked not just that it happened at all but at the ferocity of the blast. The explosion was enormously loud, it shook the building I was in noticeably. Also, the plane went nearly right through the building. It certainly had the power to destabilize it significantly, from what I could see.

Then, seeing the second tower collapse from somewhat further away, it seemed to cave in from the top--from where the plane hit. Could the so-called "planted bombs" have survived both the jet fuel explosion and subsequent raging fire? I think not. If they were exploded on lower floors, everyone would have seen that.

I am no fan of the Bushies but I think their misdeeds do not extend to the deliberate destruction of the World Trade Center.

» RE: One witness' opinion Posted by: JoeCraine
journalism?
Posted by: jolmichr on Oct 26, 2006 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
interesting how this same taibbi can jokingly consider himself a member of the "international liberal media conspiracy" (colbert report)..making light this ridiculous usage of words and later use this word in so many paragraphs whose singular intent is "slamming a movement."

taibbi should be ashamed of cloaking this garbage as journalism. And the people at alternet should be ashamed as well. I do not frequent this site to read crap that could have come from oreily, limbaugh, etc. This kindergarten name calling is insulting to all readers no matter their opinion of 911. But this is taibbis trademark: belittling characters that appear in his writings. When is the last time we heard Naomi Klein or Amy Goodman clumsily expose personal opinion this way? Never. That’s why we call them journalists.

taibbis mind is made. It was made long ago. This feeble rhetoric only serves to separate us by exposing our differences. At this point in time it is important for us to work together to find common interests and create accountability in our government. Why use this term conspiracy? Why be surprised by people who do not believe the government? How many documented times have they lied? Is David Corn a conspiracy theorist as well? Understand that everything is a conspiracy at some level. We lie every day.

We lie everyday, all of us.

It is in error to suggest a lie or a truth fictitious simply because it has not been exposed and accepted by a certain amount of people over a certain amount of time.

PNAC , All roads lead to Israel
Posted by: rwa on Oct 26, 2006 8:02 AM   
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Ryan Dawson 911, Iraq, PNAC , All roads lead to Israel

Some "911 was an inside job" camps like to lay out 4 scenarios. Briefly they go as follows.

1 Is the official story.
We got caught with our pants down and terrorists did 911. And the wars in the Middle East are part of the greater war on terrorism.

2 The incompetence excuse
There was information available about the coming attacks but because of our incompetence we failed to see it. Terrorists attacked the US. And the wars in the Middle East were based on mistakes (more incompetence) but now we got to stay.

3 They let it happen
They knew full well about the coming 911 attacks but allowed it to happen in order to use it as a pretext to go to war with Iraq and Afghanistan as it was in military and corporate interests (particularly oil) to do so.

4 They made it happen. (They meaning just vaguely the Bush Admin)
The Bush government either helped protect the terrorists or simply used them as patsies, and assisted the plane crashes effects with bombs placed inside the towers prior to 911. The wars in the Middle East were about oil.

The 911 was an inside job camps then say the evidence must land you somewhere between 3 and 4 with more research dropping you firmly on 4.

Let me now throw in a 5th scenario

5 The Neocons Made it happen with the assistance of a foreign government, the same government where PNAC was first written, and who we have caught spies from who have been stealing secrets from us about Iran, and who made up the shadow government of the OSP which is who cherry picked and fabricated the lies told about Iraq in order to start the war. The Wars in the middle east were for separate reasons, Afghanistan was about a few pipelines as noted but more so about controlling large quantities of un-tapped uranium (a reason for both the Russian and US invasions) and secondly for controlling opium as the CIA uses drug money to fund it's off the book black operations such as the now known massive secret prison systems, (torture camps and human medical/scientific testing). Location-wise Afghanistan is coupled with other color coded revolutions to circle China and Russia with US bases and puppets, (add to that the lesser known negotiations with Japan to allow nuclear subs into the Japanese Sea [pointed at China] in exchange for moving troops from Okinawa to Guam). The main goal however, which the PNAC think tank states, is to keep the eye on the pie: Iran, which Afghanistan and Iraq both boarder. The invasion of Iraq was to solve Israel's oil crisis and stop the threat of a secular Middle East which would become a true economic player and was a threat to the aggressive state of Israel.

The evidence if it was ALL being stated, especially pertaining to the war in Iraq, would land you somewhere between scenario 4 and 5 and more research would land you firmly in 5.

A lot of people have written about and shown the problems with official 911 story. There is the demolition of building number 7, which the 911 commission didn't even address, there are the firemen's reports that the fires were almost out, there are numerous reports of secondary explosions etc. Because it has been said on radio and more so because people have made films about it, many people can recite the arguments for the inside job in their sleep. But what has been hidden from you and the dots which have not been connected in any 911 films is the Israeli connection. 911 was an inside job which was part of a larger plan for perpetual war hatched in Israel. 911 and the wars in the Middle East were carefully planned attacks carried out by a faction of Zionist Neocons and the Israeli Mossad. I would like to focus more on who did it rather than just that it was done.

911, Iraq, PNAC , All roads lead to Israel -2
Posted by: rwa on Oct 26, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is really responsible?
To answer this question one should first ask, who had the power to cover it up? Who would have the power to censor the media and have total confidence that they could censor the media given an event this size? One look at the non-coverage of Israeli's illegal occupation of Palestine should give you an answer. Nowhere, in the US televised media, do they even mention that there is an occupation. This massive conflict, which one would assume would be impossible to conceal, is totally shielded from the American public. The Occupation is missing from the news and they purposely paint the distorted picture that Israel just defends itself from crazy suicide bombers. This is not something they can hide, or even debate about, the occupation is visible, you can go visit it, and it is widely covered in media outside the US, but you will never ever hear Israel's crimes even mentioned. There is no news of the Jewish-Only racial colonies that the US calls "Settlements" and "Neighborhoods" reported on Fox, ABCNNBCBS which is really one net work that tells the same stories often in the same order. I will explain why in the media section.

Also there has been no reporting on the second Israeli spy-ring, none, zero, and the first spy ring uncovered was yanked from Fox News. Even though it is an open secret to the rest of the world, in the US there has been no mention of Israel's secretly built nuclear weapons. The list goes on... the faction that has nothing to fear from the US media and who could cover up something as huge as 911 or larger are the Zionists of Israel and their allies in the US government and press who all profit through the MIC and investments from fridge element religious organizations who are rewarded with air-time.

One should also look at the list of congressmen on the AIPAC lobby's "payroll" and then look at the astonishing number who we know had connections the the Zionist lobbyest and criminal Jack Abramoff. (who is deeply connected to the Israeli Mossad and 911 as I will show you later).

The second question one should ask, is 'what did 911 serve'? The answer to that is very simple. The aftermath of 911 led to two different wars, and we all know how 911 was falsely attached to the justifications for America's wars. Almost 90% of US troops in Iraq think that Saddam had a role in 911 and that the war was revenge for it. That level of total ignorance is mindblowing. War is of course is good for select businesses and central banks because they are debt generators. Iraq was not a threat to the US, they were a threat to Israel, and the same case can be said about Iran. We know who really wants these wars.

There can be no doubt that the press consciously distorted information leading up to the wars, and that they never made any clear pronouncements about how they had been wrong about their lies, with the Weapons of Mass Destruction myth being a clear stinging example. There are people in the US who still believe that Iraq had WMDs or that they moved them to Syria lol. If you want to know who planned 911 then a good place to look would be who do we know planned and then lied about Iraq? (also who has been lying the most about Iran) Who championed the disinformation? Where were the lies coming from? And when was this war really planned and where? The answered to all of those questions are sadly the same. Israel and American Zionists.

911: Choose the government's OBL conspiracy theory or look at the actual circumstances!
Posted by: Gretchen on Oct 26, 2006 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is nothing wrong with a conspiracy theory. There are many laws based on things like "felony conspiracy" to commit murder, conspiracy to commit fraud, etc. After all, the definition of conspiracy is:
a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act
a plot to carry out some harmful or illegal act (especially a political plot)
a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose

So either we believe the government's conspiracy theory about the 6'5" Arab former CIA operative, Osama Bin Laden, masterminding a complete stand-down of all of America's security systems from a cave in Afghanistan, causing buildings not hit by anything to collapse in freefall, or we actually look at and analyze all the bits of circumstantial evidence collected since 911, comparing it to scientific reality, criminal profiling, etc. To go after 911 like a top notch detective goes after a cold case murder and solves it is not such a bad thing.
All the hysterical hypocritical trolls like the author of this mindless piece of trash are conspiracy theorists as well--they simply buy the government's OBL AlQueda conspiracy theory instead, rather than using their intellects to truly analyse actual evidence versus actual scientifically proven realities.
Go Cheney Yourself al of you OBL fear mongerers!

911, Iraq, PNAC , All roads lead to Israel -3
Posted by: rwa on Oct 26, 2006 8:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PNAC was co-authored by the same people who have been caught lying about the Iraq War's pre-invasion intelligence. We are talking about only around 25 people who helped fabricate evidence and pass it off to the president and journalists. PNAC's ideas and statements stem from Israeli policy papers.

In fact, PNAC's papers were written by the very same people who wrote Israeli policy papers and hold dual citizenship with Israel. The war in Iraq and control over energy resources ect is all lined out in Israel's A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" which was written by Richard Perle and Douglas Feith. That is just one of many papers this little blood for money cabal cranked out. The IASPS (Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Science) also wrote a paper called the Afghan Vortex a year before the invasion. Note also that the US had ships already in place set to invade before 911. In 1992 Paul Wolfowitz wrote the Defense Planning Guidance, with his former Student Lewis Libby:

Quote:
The foreign strategy of the US must be "unapologetic, idealistic, assertive and well funded. America must not only be the world's policeman or its sheriff, it must be its beacon and guide…Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power. These regions include Western Europe, East Asia, the territory of the former Soviet Union, and Southwest Asia…There are three additional aspects to this objective: First the U.S must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. Second, in the non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. Finally, we must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."

full post at:
http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?t=1388

Blind Faith and Ignorance is not an excuse.
Posted by: ItsTime on Oct 26, 2006 8:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt

Your no different then the journalists that perpetuated the story that Poland was attacking Germany when Hitler began his war. I’m sure many of them believed their government too. To suggest anything else was considered unpatriotic as well. But in the end their blind faith and ignorance cost them plenty. Looking back they were anything but patriotic. There will come a day when your eye’s are opened to just what you’ve contributed to and unless you have no understanding of the importance of human life, you will have many sleepless nights. When you try to justify your actions through ignorance and blind faith, just remember that’s no excuse. Especially you, you who have had thousands of people trying to help you see the obvious. I wonder if the little children that just lost both their Iraqi parents from this war, will ever be able to forgive those responsible (like you) for the atrocities forced upon them over greed.

PS Put your money where your mouth is. I would love to hear you debate your theories. Say with Alex Jones. I’m sure he would be extremely happy to accommodate you on this. Do you think you could hold up to his scrutiny? I suspect it would be comical. In case you don’t know who he is, which I highly doubt. You can go to www.infowars.com This would be one debate I would walk 500 miles to hear.

Gore Vidal:
Posted by: rwa on Oct 26, 2006 10:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"What made no sense is that CNN wouldn't follow up on why the fighter planes had not been scrambled and gone up to stop the hijacking - that's the law of the land you don't need the President to order you, you don't need a general - those are your instructions - I know, my father wrote them," said Vidal.

When asked if there should be a new investigation of 9/11 Vidal insisted, "of course there should and a wonderful time to do it would be at the impeachment of Bush - I think you might find everything that we ought to know but do not know."

Asked if the Bush administration would go to the lengths of staging a terror attack to smokescreen their scandals, Vidal stated, "they certainly know how to cry wolf....let's say it was on their minds to stage an event - I don't know how they can do it - luckily for us we the people....they've antagonized the entire military I don't think the military would let them."

Despite his dark outlook on the future of freedom, Vidal hinted at a possible reprieve for America.

"I'm beginning to feel that the tide is turning which is the first twinge of optimism I've felt in a long time."

Debunking systematics
Posted by: LeaNder on Oct 26, 2006 11:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although I guess I would support part of the larger argument, there are a couple of things about these kind of articles that start to bother me.

One: Never ever government secrecy is discussed. But it is the most important pre-requisite for these huge collective thinking processes to start. Should we all believe that all governments are always and only benign entities?

Two: Why are always the most obvious nutcases and or alternatively the usual Holocaust deniers picked out? I remember distinctly when I read about Nico Haupt for the first time. It was in a really early article in 2003/or 4 that ridiculed the 911 truth movement in the German magazine Der Spiegel. I remember too that at that time, I was really puzzled: Nico Who? And I do not think he is important in the 911 movement and never was.

Three: Urban mythoi definitely are a tiny and very specific part of the larger rumor processes. Urban myth do not necessarily need a crime like 911 to start. They are in fact enormously frugal, they do not need any reality contact at all. The parallels between OCK and 911 are not very convincing.

Four - Admittedly: I would like to see a completely independent 911 commission AND maybe even more finally the 911 commission part II, that is that part initially planned to look into possible manipulation of intelligence to start the Iraq war, that was announced but – am I hallucinating? tinfoil hat members sometimes do – mysteriously never happened.

BEFORE ALTERNET THERE WAS PROJECT MOCKINGBIRD
Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 26, 2006 12:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matt is a shill, and not to be taken seriously. Here is black and white proof:

"In fact, if they did pull that off, they fucking deserve to get away with it. "

That is condoning high treason and mass murder.

That is the persepective of this baboon.

In all the "research" (read: cherry picking straw man claims) that he did, there is not one word about the man who actually investigated the Oklahoma City Bombing, Air Force Brigadier General Ben Partin.

General Partin's letter to Senator Trent Lott (also on the Whatreallyhappened website, though conspicuously ignored) is below. General Partin sent his detailed report to every single member of congress as well as 500 major news organizations. It was incredibly ignored by all. The man was an undisputed expert in munitions and demolition for 30 years. His findings are both credible and shocking. That is why no power brokers or media shills will touch them:


Benton K. Partin Brigadier Gen. USAF (Ret.)
8908 Captains Row
Alexandria, Virginia 22308
703-780-7652
July 30, 1995

Sen. Trent Lott
United States Senate
487 Senate Russell Office Building
Washington, DC 205102403

Dear Sen. Lott:

The attached report contains conclusive proof that the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, was not caused solely by the truck bomb. Evidence shows that the massive destruction was primarily the result of four demolition charges placed at critical structural points at the third floor level.

Weapons Experience: I do not offer such an analytical conclusion lightly. I have spent 25 years in research, design, development, test and management of weapons development. This included: handson work at the Ballistic Research Laboratories; Commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory, and ultimately management responsibility for almost every nonnuclear weapon device in the Air Force (at the Air Force System command, Air Staff and the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) levels). I was also the first chairman of the OSD joint service Air Munitions Requirements and Development Committee. (A more detailed resume appears at Tab 1.)

Observations in Oklahoma City: To verify earlier analysis, I visited Oklahoma City during the last week of June. There I had the opportunity to view hundreds of photographs taken throughout the cleanup operation as the layers of debris were cleared away. The photos present irrefutable evidence that at least four demolition charges were set off at four critical columns of the reinforced concrete structure at the floor level of the third floor.

Conclusion: Based on my experience in weapons development and bomb damage analysis, and on my review of all evidence available, I can say, with a high level of confidence, that the damage pattern on the reinforced concrete superstructure could not possibly have been attained from the single truck bomb. The total incompatibility of this pattern of destruction with a single truck bomb lies in the simple, incontrovertible fact that some of the columns collapsed that should not have collapsed if the damage were caused solely by a truck bomb, and, conversely, some of the columns were left standing that should have collapsed if the damage had been caused solely by the truck bomb.

It is my hope and request that, as a Member of Congress, you will support a Congressional investigation to determine the true initiators of this bombing, which could not have occurred the way in which it has been portrayed as having happened. (CONT'D)

» GENERAL PARTIN'S LETTER CONTINUED Posted by: johndoraemi
9?11 Truthers: Don't you have a trust fund to tend to?
Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 26, 2006 1:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The amateur interview of Nico Haupt at a Generation Tribal coffee shop is fantastic. See YouTube video in Matt Taibbi blurb at www.total911.info .

I wish I was still 22, jobless, and addicted to hip.

335 comments? Is that an Alternet record?

» Nico Haupt is another buffoon. Posted by: johndoraemi
My letter to Rolling Stone Magazine
Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 26, 2006 1:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fire Matt Taibbi immediately.

His lies are motiviated by something other than a desire for the truth. This video of the news reports from the Okalahoma City Bombing proves that he is not a serious journalist by any definition. Watch the reports:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMXMo3Z0qms&eurl=

"The Justice Department is reporting that a second explosive device has been found in the AP Murrah building..."

"In fact, two different explosive devices have been found in addition to the one that went off..."

You have a compromised "journalist" on your payroll whose blather is damaging to the nation. Taibbi must be fired and replaced by a journalist with integrity, not an incompetent propagandist. Your credibility is in the toilet right now.

9/11 legal question
Posted by: Reader11722 on Oct 26, 2006 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's only one important question concerning WTC, did the US gov't allow/participate in 9/11?

The answer to that query would explain the illegal wire-taps, suspension of habeas corpus, banning of books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, detaining of dissenters in fences miles away from events, and multiple wars based on lies.

How can the gov't be innocent in 9/11 when we have caught it lying so many times (WACO, Ruby Ridge, no WMDs, USS Liberty, Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods, ETC.)?

In law, if you determine a person lies ONCE during his testimony, it can be assumed that he lied in the remainder of his testimony. How come we do not hold the gov't to the same standard as it holds us to?

Final link (before Google Books bends to pressure and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)

Undercover Brother
Posted by: Undercover Brother on Oct 26, 2006 5:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do think it was the planes that brought down the towers on 9/11. Where I think there is a fishy smell is that W and the PNAC crew knew it was coming and did nothing to try and stop it.

» RE: Undercover Brother Posted by: tlv
Creating Myths
Posted by: bernarda on Oct 27, 2006 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is an interesting report on the executive director of the 911 Commission, Philip Zelikow.

"In researching the Bush administration’s manipulation of public perceptions, I came across an interesting summary of the State Department’s Philip Zelikow, who was Executive Director on the 9-11 Commission, that greatest of all charades. According to Wikipedia:

“Prof. Zelikow’s area of academic expertise is the creation and maintenance of, in his words, ‘public myths’ or ‘public presumptions’ which he defines as ‘beliefs (1) thought to be true ( although not necessarily known with certainty) and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community.’

In his academic work and elsewhere he has taken a special interest in what he has called ‘searing’ or ‘molding’ events (that) take on transcendent’ importance and therefore retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes from the scene….

He has noted that ‘a history’s narrative power is typically linked to how readers relate to the actions of individuals in the history; if readers cannot make the connection to their own lives, then a history may fail to engage them at all.” (“Thinking about Political History” Miller center Report, winter 1999, p 5-7)

Isn’t that the same as saying there is neither history nor truth; that what is really important is the manipulation of epochal events so they serve the interests of society’s managers?"

www.radicalleft.net/blog/_archives/2006/10/26/2449920.html

To emphasize, what does he study?

"the creation and maintenance of, in his words, ‘public myths’ or ‘public presumptions’ which he defines as ‘beliefs (1) thought to be true ( although not necessarily known with certainty) and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community.’ "

Sounds like he was the right man for the job.

coverp if you will but
Posted by: edith on Oct 27, 2006 6:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
oklahoma city was not simply the work of tim mcveigh, and the fbi under clinton was up to its eyes in s in covering up that event. And the clinton mass murder at waco was part and parciel of the slaughter at the Murra building.

Matt Taibbi should not be published on Alternet or anywhere else unless he can explain himself.
Posted by: gretavo on Oct 28, 2006 8:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He is guilty of either gross ignorance or deliberate deception, and I tend to believe it is the latter. That his shoddy work in defense of the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks is being published without proper review by Alternet and others is a serious concern. These questions are not going anywhere and everyone participating in this debate will have to answer for their statements sooner or later, including Taibbi. I would recommend retaining a lawyer, Matt. Seriously.

Taibbi Lampooned at Harvard
Posted by: gretavo on Oct 28, 2006 8:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
yeah bin Laden quickly claimed credit... HA!
Posted by: gretavo on Oct 28, 2006 6:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He denied it in a video message to the world. He said rightly that it was someone else who did it to spark the "war of civilizations". Subsequent fake vieo and audio "evidence" has never been authenticated, so that not even the FBI says that bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11, or else they would indict him and add it to his wanted poster.

If you really don't understand that this issue has more to do with alleged phone calls, then you need to keep studying the issue. Steel melted. Steel does not melt from jet fuel fires. Explosions were reported and you can't just explain them away--they happened, and there are people who were hurt by them, and no they had nothing to do with the plane-caused fires.

Since people like you who don't do their research are so easy to fool, Bush had most Americans convinced Saddam was behind 9/11 when it suited him. People like you did not question the mainstream media then, and now you pretend that you're informed because you read a "liberal" site like Alternet. That's not enough, OK? You have like everyone else a responsibility not to speak from ignorance, which you are doing. Taibbi goes one step farther and writes pieces that distract from the real issues and protect the perpetrators. If he does this knowingly, he is commiting a crime, and while he can, like other people have, plead ignorance, that MIGHT fly in court but not in the court of public opinion.

The only thing that will be hurt because of his actions are his credibility, his career, and his honor. He should ashamed of the disgrace he is helping to give another few months of life, as should people like you who come on forums and talk about things you don't seem to understand.

» Theories need defending - Pt. 1 Posted by: kogwonton
» Theories need defending - Pt. 2 Posted by: kogwonton
And you wonder why people think Progressives are lunatics
Posted by: Boomerang on Oct 29, 2006 3:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just look at some of these comments. Keep up the debunking Matt, eventually these loons will have nothing more to stand on.

Final Report on the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Building
Posted by: RoryB on Oct 29, 2006 6:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://okcbombing.org/books&videos.htm

Headed by former Oklahoma state representative Charles Key, the Oklahoma City Bombing Investigation Committee recently announced the long-awaited release of its final report, which differs sharply and dramatically from the official conclusions of the federal government.

The lengthy report was written, said Key, to help Americans finally "get to the truth" about what really happened April 19, 1995 -- the day the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was destroyed in Oklahoma City, Okla.

Timothy McVeigh, who was executed June 11, and accomplice Terry Nichols, who is serving a life sentence for his role, were not alone in planning and carrying out the bombing, the exhaustive report concludes.

AND
Bush Gang Swore Under Oath Saddam Was Behind 9/11
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0610/

Much to the dismay of the Bush administration, Americans can remember all on their own, without any help from Democrats, that in the run up to the war in Iraq, it was top White House officials who were making the claim that Saddam was in cahoots with bin Laden and secretly involved to 9/11.

The fact that the administration's disinformation campaign was overwhelmingly successful was evidenced by an October 2004, Harris Poll, taken three weeks before the last presidential election, that found 62% of all voters, and 84% of those planning to vote for Bush, still believed that Saddam had ''strong links" to Al Qaeda, and that 41% of all voters, and 52% of Bush backers, believed that Saddam had ''helped plan and support the hijackers" who had attacked the country on 9/11.

Just Give Up
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Oct 29, 2006 8:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes Matt, I'm with ya...

But just give up already...It's like trying to convince a crackhead to give up rocks...because they just need one more piece of evidence, I'LL SUCK YOUR >>>>

you get my point. Move on. Talk about something interesting. Let the conspriracy crack heads keep their rocks. Or spend your entire life campaigning for crackhead conspiracy rehab. It's no use.

Cheney will always be a crooked, black-hearted fuck. And the 9/11 truthers will always suck...

t

Conspiracies as Big Business
Posted by: theistfree on Oct 30, 2006 9:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But there is money in the 9/11 Truth Movement! Matts just sorry he did not cash in like the two guys with that little film.

You make a little web site and repeat all the supposed PROOF of government cover-up, put some links and Google Adwords to 9/11 books and videos and rake in the cash.

You see your base audience is the Tin Foil hat people so you have a ready made group of suckers with no critical thinking skills at all and who are ripe to buy any bull you can sell them. So long as it feeds their need to to think of themselves as the ultimate seekers of truth.

I still say the Cory Lidle crash was a set-up cause he knew all about 9/11, you see he saw a video on YouTube and deduced the dirty fact of GWB direct connection with personally shooting passengers of flight 77. Lidle had to be silenced.

I have a DVD that explanes it all. Only $19.95 + $39.95 shipping and handling. http://asuckerborneveryminute.com/

The Aliens Did It
Posted by: theistfree on Oct 30, 2006 10:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, What the hell! It's not any more wacky then any of the other 9/11 truth stuff.

How the Saudi government is using the Bush administration and Alien Technology to destroy America

Look for yourself.
Posted by: theistfree on Oct 30, 2006 3:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conspiracy theorist love to ignore one simple fact about the collapse of the WTC, it does NOT even look like a controlled implosion.

It is obvious just by looking at the videos, the towers start to break apart right at the floors that the planes hit, not the bottom like a real explosive initiated demolition. NO EXACTLY at the part where the fires were the hottest. NO pre-explosions just the sound of tons of concrete and steel, which can sound like a bomb but is NOT a bomb.

Just look for yourself, you will see the sides of WTC2 bulge and buckle just before collapse, you will see the top floors above the fire floors lean over at an angle before falling and smashing the rest of the building. It's plain as day to anyone who looks that this was not controlled.

You wont hear how the two towers were floor for floor one of the lightest buildings in NY and that there was a long time controversy as to the safety of the buildings due to their open floor construction and poor fire proofing. They did not even have a sprinkler system when first built, it had to retrofitted.

OH! and stop repeating the Big Lie that the word "PULL" is industry jargon for implosion, It is NOT. It may well be conspiracy theorist jargon but is not used by people who actually implode buildings! When you get caught in a lie own up to it and STOP repeating it hoping it will become part of the Conspiracy Theorist folklore.

Industry web site Implosion World

Of course you wont read it, it would challenge your sacred cow.

» RE: Look for yourself. Posted by: JoeCraine
» RE: Look for yourself. Posted by: JoeCraine
Lesson in critical thinking
Posted by: theistfree on Oct 31, 2006 6:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK so it seems you people need a lesson in how to think critically .

Lets take the picture of the supposed "cut" columns. You guy see a picture and see steel columns that have obviously been cut and quickly buy the assertion these were cut by cutting charges, on other explanation is considered.

I as a critical thinker on the other hand see the same pictures and my mind ask how these could look this way? Could it be a cutting charge? Yes, but not very likely, As I pointed out the collapse does not have the quality of a controlled implosion. This is backed up by REAL experts who do this sort of work. And when I say experts I am talking about people who have actually imploded tall buildings and not some self proclaimed experts who got a degree in software engineering and now call themselves building engineers. You don't ask a doctor for advice on how to fix your car, do you?

That leaves the simple and most likely explanation of the pictures, these columns were cut AFTER the collapse. Makes perfect sense, as right after the collapse a rescue efforts was started and the one thing that was needed was crews with TORCHES. You have heard of torches haven't you? They cut steel and make it easier to move so that debris cat be removed as well. And if you look at the pictures heavy equipment is already on site so these pictures were taken well into the clean-up. So I would suggest you look at the pictures and more importantly THINK rather then buying the truthers hype.

One of the silliest concepts of the truthers is that WTC7 was imploded to destroy some files. The non thinkers buy this hook line and sinker and never ask the obvious question. Would it not be simpler just to destroy these files and NOT the entire building! say a little eletrical fire. NO that would not be satisfying enough for the Conspiracy Theorist, you have to build a elaborate plot so you can play detective.

Non thinkers will be told the word 'pull' is industry jargon for taking a building down with explosives and never ask "is it really industry jargon? Heres a hint, it is NOT. Cleanup worker refers to the demolition of WTC Building 6 when he says, "...we're getting ready to pull the building six." The reason he uses the word "pull" is because building six was actually pulled down! Cables were tied to what was left of the building and a bulldozer PULLED it down.

And yes I do not suffer stupid people lightly. now maybe it not your fault, maybe you were dropped on your head as a child and it not your fault. But Come On Duh......

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