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Are Evangelicals Over?

By Alan Wolfe, Comment Is Free. Posted October 17, 2006.


With the recent revelations that Bush aides mocked members of their Christian base, it has become increasingly clear to many evangelicals that their alliance with the Republicans is not paying off.

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American elections in which no president is chosen are usually hum-drum affairs interesting only to policy wonks. Not 2006. Though not on any ballot, the question voters will be answering is: Has the religious right peaked?

Barring some miracle, it has. I am just back from a two-day visit to Regent University, founded by the evangelist Pat Robertson, a key figure in the religious right. "What you need to understand," a Robertson supporter told me, "is that Pat opposed the war in Iraq from the start." I responded that according to the Lancet, some 600,000 Iraqis have died since the war began. If Robertson had publicly opposed the war, I told them, his influential voice might have spared those lives. "But," one of them answered back, "Pat is a Republican who would not openly oppose the president."

And there, I submit, is why the religious right is in trouble. Since the emergence of a politically active version of conservative Protestantism in the 1980s, it has never been clear whether America's shift to the right took place because deeply religious people became political or because deeply conservative people became religious. I learned at Regent what I have long suspected: For some of the most visible leaders in the religious right, politics trumps religion every time.

But this is not true at all among many of the religious right's followers. Many conservative evangelicals are deeply persuaded that their society has descended into shameless immorality and that their task -- or, as they would say, their purpose -- is to restore the country to its senses. For them, abortion, gay marriage, and stem cells are signs of such moral decadence. One can accuse them of cherry-picking their issues; surely torture or economic inequality should be concerns of people who try to live by the teachings of Jesus. But there is no doubting their sincerity.

Historically, evangelicals believed that religion and politics should be separate: one was holy, the other Satan's domain. But they put those convictions aside in the hopes that the Republican Party would change America's moral climate. It has not, and they are not happy.

It is precisely because conservative evangelicals pay more attention to issues involving sexuality than they do to economics or foreign policy that the Foley affair has become so important. It has become increasingly clear to many evangelicals that their alliance with the Republicans is not paying off: Abortion is still legal (if more restricted); gays can still marry in one state, and civil unions are spreading elsewhere; and opposition to stem cell research is a losing cause.

David Kuo, former deputy director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, has just come out with a book, "Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction," showing what suckers conservative voters have been; in private, he writes, Republicans in the Bush administration wanted their votes and had no interest in leading a new Great Awakening. The fact that a key Republican in Congress was gay, involved himself in the lives of teenagers, and, despite some knowledge of these things, was allowed to continue in office by Republican leaders, has now made clear to even larger numbers of evangelicals how little the administration they loved so much returns their passion.

Americans love God and hate politics. If the people who presume to speak for God, like Pat Robertson, are political activists in religious garb, why become involved with something you hate, especially if it corrupts what you love? Conservative evangelicals are unlikely to vote in large numbers for Democrats. But if even small numbers of them choose not to vote at all, Republicans will be unable to mobilize their base as they did in 2000 and 2004. That alone would constitute sufficient evidence that the religious right's political influence has begun to wane.

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See more stories tagged with: bush, evangelicals, rove, christians, administration, karl

Alan Wolfe teaches political science at Boston College and is the author of "Does American Democracy Still Work?" (Yale University Press).

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Not over, just awake
Posted by: LeftWright on Oct 17, 2006 1:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most evangelicals are true christians, they've just been led astray by many of their leaders who became very political and corrupted by the elites who wanted their money and votes.

These are good people who have been abused and lied to.

I hope they will pause to reflect and join with the rest of America in working to restore our country to compassion, justice, humility, tolerance and a respect for diversity.

We are all brothers and sisters on this big beautiful blue ball.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

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» RE: Not over, just awake Posted by: rhinojos
» RE:Not over, just awake Posted by: yesca
» RE: Not over, just awake Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: Not over, just awake Posted by: Lauren
» fred c dobbs sez: Posted by: gltirebiter
astray
Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 17, 2006 2:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is nice that some evangelicals are realizing that people at the top of the Republican party have been leading them astray by faking their devoutness for all these years. They should vote for people who they know are really devout and not just lying or simply stay home on election day. I always stay home because Oregon is vote by mail.

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» RE: astray Posted by: diogenes
Religion, political conservatism are symptoms
Posted by: Moonray on Oct 17, 2006 3:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having lived among Southern Baptists all my life, I'm familiar with the sociopathic tendencies of religious and political conservatives. Both display meanness and lack of logic.

A few decades ago, religious conservatives became overtly political less to change the world than to bolster flagging church attendance. Their strategy worked better than they had dreamed, and the more ambitious Bible-thumpers began to aim for actually imposing their theocratic notions on the nation as a whole.

Nothing could be more dangerous to a democracy than demagogues inspired by Bronze Age theology and contemptuous of logic and science. Just ask the people of Iran and Pakistan.

That's why we desperately need to amend our Constitution to install real legal protections against religion, including a ban on churches indoctrinating children under 18 and an end to tax exemptions for religious groups.

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» Tunnel vision Posted by: doctorsquared
» Yes, tax the political churches Posted by: planet doomed
I am tired of being tired................
Posted by: yogendra2 on Oct 17, 2006 3:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a buddhist; i grew up in georgia in a southern baptist household; my mom was a sunday school teacher for over 30 years. I am tired of being beaten over the head with right wing "christian" TALIBAN dogma the kind of which george w. bush and his thugs have used to divide the country. I have no intention to live by any "rules" of the right wing christians; however, i don't expect anyone other than me to live by the ideas of buddhism. my spirituality is very personal, and i assume that other people feel the same. i think the political left/progressives (which i certainly am) are much more accepting than the political right, and more intelligent, and more educated and better read, etc. However all these ideas are personal and i expect no one else to believe or accept them for themselves. I am an avid (though not nationalistic) American, believer in Democracy, believer in the Constitution and am ready to put down the gauntlet and join other Americans to unify America, regardless of religious/spiritual beliefs. All of this fighting each other, dividing the country, fighting culture wars, etc. must be put aside for the sake of the country and for our American culture. This is American and it is big enough for us all, and others should not be beaten over the head with the right wing christian dogma, or any other dogma. Can we not accept others even if different. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG AND BE A BIG AMERICA? I want that and will work to get it. Yogi, tucson, ayogendra@yahoo.com

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» Even an open mind Posted by: Zen
They're not going away.
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 17, 2006 4:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people have been around since the Mayflower, and long before. Crusades, Inquisitions...Think back...

They burned Beatles albums when Ringo said he played drums better than Jesus.

One or two scandals or creative differences with the Republicans will make them disappear? Hello!?!?!

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» RE: They're not going away....sickofsleaze Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com
sickofsleaze
Posted by: ladybug1@carrollsweb.com on Oct 17, 2006 5:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Republican wet dream just came true. They are accusing a Michigan representative of page abuse. The first thing out of the box "the Democrats do it too as if that excused unethical, criminal etc behavior

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» typical republican response. Posted by: WhatNow?
This is disinformation
Posted by: EricVerlo on Oct 17, 2006 5:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Fundies are not over. The Christians are the only ones offended by these "revelations" and they're going to be voting for the GOP anyway. This story is disinformation for us, to think the Bushies are showing some sanity.

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Don't get too comfortable
Posted by: neurorot on Oct 17, 2006 6:14 AM   
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Bruce Wilson at Talk to Action presents a pretty compelling argument that despite the name calling and condescension, the Christian right has accomplished quite a bit in the way of getting their agenda on the books. The fat Dominionist lady hasn't started singing yet.

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The revolution has already begun
Posted by: wawa on Oct 17, 2006 6:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Religion’s job is to pull out our best stuff; to help us be our best selves. Religion in America has been used and abused to control and manipulate millions of Christians.

"The good news is that there are millions more who are not represented by the Falwells and the Dobsons, and they are raising their voices and doing something about confronting the hijacking of the Bible to further political gain. All faith traditions battle with fundamentalism. Religion is meant to be a bridge, not a wedge.

"The seduction of the religious right by politicians is being challenged by our rapidly spreading grassroots sojourners community that stands up with a firm moral center and echoes Lincoln’s refrain: what is needed today is reflection, penitence, humility, accountability, and that we should all seek to be on God’s side.

"There are over three thousand verses in the Bible referring to the poor; this is the moral issue of our time. There are also the moral issues of poverty, ecology, and war; it is the church’s job to address these moral issues, too. Separation of church and state does not mean the segregation of religion from the human dialogue….

"Our deepest choices are between hope and compassion. Hope is not a feeling or a state of mind, but an abiding choice you make because you have faith. Faith is supposed to change things that look impossible to be changed. Cynicism sees the world as it is and gives up trying to change it. Cynicism is a buffer against commitment….

"History testifies to the fact that all great changes came about by social justice movements that were based on faith and religious values. America has a proud history of progressive spiritual activism. We are the ones we have been waiting for. We can change the nation when we change the wind, and people of faith are called to be wind changers.”

-Rev. Jim Wallis @ TIKKUN's First Conf. Spiritual Progressives
excerpted KEEP HOPE ALIVE
ordering details WAWA blog

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the revolution continues
Posted by: wawa on Oct 17, 2006 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Let me explain exactly what an evangelical Christian is to be about. My evangelical roots are connected to the path laid down by evangelicals from the 19th century. They were the first to speak out against slavery and were the first supporters of female suffrage. In fact, the original altar call was the call to stand up against slavery…In this century, we are faced with nuclear weapons and the fact that the arms race put the world in grave danger. The world went to sleep, and now we have escalating proliferation, nations, and groups of angry people with nuclear warheads. The real security threat is coming from the gathering terrorists who are acquiring unsecured materials.

"Activists must be contemplatives, and contemplatives must act. The time has come for the Christian Right to meet the right Christians.” -Rev. Jim Wallis


much more on WAWA

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» RE: the revolution continues Posted by: techphile
and the beat goes on...
Posted by: wawa on Oct 17, 2006 6:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“What has happened to Christianity? I have been a student of the Bible my entire life. I am a committed Christian and open to anyone’s opinion, but not to their own facts. The Bible has been used to justify slavery, segregation, to deny woman equality, and to promote war. A lot of evil happens when the Bible is misunderstood and misused. In the name of God, men have become murderers. We live in a world where people in power get to define those without power. The prophets spoke the word of God in concrete circumstances and throughout history. Hosea spoke of God as love. Amos understood that worship and justice go together. Micah confronted Israel with their behavior, and God again told the people what is required:

"‘Do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your Lord.’”
Bishop John Shelby Spong
at TIKKUNS first conference for Spiritual Progressives
excerpted from KEEP HOPE ALIVE

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» RE: and the beat goes on... Posted by: symcokid
» RE: and the beat goes on... Posted by: rhinojos
and on and on...
Posted by: wawa on Oct 17, 2006 6:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“We are people hungry to get on with the business we are about. American politics have already been transformed by religion and spirit, just not the one we believe and desire. We are a deeply divided nation, and the substance of what passes for religion looks like the stuff of politics.

"There is no such thing as the American religion, for we are a country of over seventy-five faith traditions. The proper role of religion is to link core values, to cooperate, to respect all people, to promote peace, justice, and compassion, and to protect the weak, poor, and the environment.

"Today, politics have become a form of religion. We need freedom for and from that kind of religion. Religion should command, inspire hope, and build bridges between other faiths and to those with no faith at all.

"We will be restless until we speak the truth to power. We will be restless until we comfort the afflicted and disturb the comfortable. We will be restless until we become a nation that cares for its entire people and lives with respect towards all others in the global village. May we all be restless, and then speak and act in peace and goodwill, in the spirit of cooperation.”

-Rev. Dr. Welton Gaddy, leader of the Interfaith Alliance Foundation and pastor at Northminster Baptist Church in L.A, @ TIKKUNS first conference for Spiritual Progressives
excerpted from KEEP HOPE ALIVE

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and we won't back down or go away
Posted by: wawa on Oct 17, 2006 6:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Forget original sin; remember original blessing. There are two Christianities in our midst. One worships a punitive father and seeks obedience at all costs. It is patriarchal, demonizes woman, the earth, science, gays, lesbians, and deep thought. It builds on fear and it supports empire-builders. Its theology includes a punitive father in the sky and teaches original sin.

"The other Christianity recognizes the original blessing that all beings derive from. We recognize awe, not sin, not guilt, as the starting point of true religion. We recognize a divinity who is source of all things and is as much mother as father, as much female as male. We honor creation and diversity. When God created everything, He pronounced it all good. We are here to make love to life.

"Yes, we are here to make love to life. Delight in creation and take your dreams into our politics and institutions. We live in the midst of a suicidal economy, motivated by love of money. We have reached a dead end. What we need to turn it around are hearts in love with life. How do we do it?

"We first must move from domination to partnership, and we begin by educating our young in awe and wonder, not how to take tests. Awe leads to reverence, which leads to gratitude, which will reinvent our species. This is the task of our generation: to regain awe. The three Rs need to be balanced by the ten Cs: contemplation, creativity, chaos, compassion, courage, critical consciousness, community, celebration, ceremony, and character.

“In community, people remain united, despite everything that divides them. In capitalist society, people are isolated, separated, despite everything that should hold them together. We are in the midst of an epic struggle between community and capitalistic society. We need a new narrative. It is the economy of materialism; it is the virus of affluenza that has weakened family life.” -Father Matthew Fox @ TIKKUNS first conference for Spiritual Progressives
excerpted from KEEP HOPE ALIVE

all public service messages from WAWA Blog

“We have it in our power to begin the world over again." - Thomas Paine

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Evangelicals jumped the shark
Posted by: Jasonix on Oct 17, 2006 6:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you read religious statistics, you see that evangelicals are an aging bunch - mainly baby boomers and those older. They're really alarmed that young people aren't embracing the faith. Movies like Jesus Camp and programs like Battle Cry depict a panicked fundamentalist movement struggling to keep kids in the fold - it's a sign of weakness, not strength.

The truth is that evangelicalism was a pretty good religion - it encouraged personal devotion to God, it was egalitarian, it communicated in the language of the common person. Some varieties of evangelicalism even allowed women ministers. This was a good religion that embodied many of the best ideals of America. But they become fundamentalist and got sucked into politics. That'll kill a religion from within and without every time.

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» RE: vangelicals jumped the shark Posted by: Violetflame11
» RE: vangelicals jumped the shark Posted by: oregoncharles
Beware the Theocracy!
Posted by: keefus55 on Oct 17, 2006 7:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sadly, the latest public debates about mixing politics with religion (particularly as it relates to abortion, sex and legalizing Gay marriage) have been commanded by a well-organized (albeit unlikely) combination of both traditional and fundamentalist evangelical “Christian” institutions. The latter remain particularly non-inclusive in their approach to religion.

Fortunately, the hypocrisy of such “Christian” behavior (purported to be founded on principles of love, inclusiveness and acceptance, but which are now being displayed as narrow intolerance for the beliefs and private sexual behavior of others) is now blatantly on display for the entire world to see. And, of late, it has become increasingly laced with ever bigger lies and hypocrisy.

For example, it's becoming ever harder for even Christians to blindly accept lectures on what is “abnormal” sexual behavior from an institution that, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, still firmly considers celibacy for its priests to be “normal” while at the same time spending millions in legal fees defending…and trying to cover up and protect…its large cadre of pedophile Priests.

I think it’s also critically important for all of us to remember that, when they set up our country and wrote our Constitution, the Founding Fathers were very careful to include a clear separation between Church and State. Maybe that's because a large number of them (like Thomas Jefferson) were Deists who also knew full well how freedoms quickly evaporate once organized religion mixes with government. And, they were bound and determined NOT to let their new country become a Theocracy.

Anyone who truly believes in the full separation of Church and State should now recognize these current attempts by the right-wing fundamentalist Christians to hijack and control our government as nothing more than their desperate, last-ditch attempt to salvage what’s left of their once complete power to control people’s money, thoughts and lives.

Unfortunately, Mr. Bush (along with the far-right-wing fundamentalist theocrats now in the US Congress) are now desperately trying to preserve, protect and then codify those precepts into US law. They now seem bound and determined to ram their far right, “good vs. evil”, Christian fundamentalist religious views down all our throats “by law” whether we (or what's written in our Constitution) happens to agree with them or not.

The bottom line here is that our precious freedoms can be far more easily taken from us by religious theocrats pushing “moral values” legislation than by the work of any rag-tag bunch of terrorists.

Hopefully, enough of us will see through this gigantic fundamentalist "power grab" and act accordingly come Election Day.

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» RE: Beware the Theocracy! Posted by: darth_jar_jar
Fundamentalism, the far right, and the far left
Posted by: rileycase on Oct 17, 2006 8:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surveys indicate that of those who identify themselves as fundamentalists or evangelical the percentage of those who are very actively involved politically is about 7%, which is just about the same as those who identify themselves as mainline. As a former pastor of churches that were mostly evangelical, I often did not know how my parishioners voted or stood on political matters. The people who respond to this blog give Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell far more attention than they deserve. I have tended to vote Republican in recent elections but not because I like what they are doing. On a scale of 1 to 100 (100 being the most favorable) my confidence in Republicans ranks somewhere between 7 and 9. The only reason I might vote Republican again is that my confidence in Democrats ranks even lower, somewhere between 2 and 4. The world will not be saved through politics.

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Civil War in US
Posted by: TheNamelessCity on Oct 17, 2006 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The religionists are not over and will not go away. They will not rest until their fairy tales are enshrined into law. Modern freethinking Americans must begin to organize against them, even prepare for years of bloody conflict. It sucks but it may need to be. The leaders of the freaky right are mostly old rich white farts and their toadies...growing civil unrest in the US will lead to unwillingness of investors at home and abroad to invest in our destabilizing economy. Threaten the religious right's coffers this way and they just might sing a different tune because in the end they are hypocrites who truly value nothing but money.

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» RE: Civil War in US Posted by: oregoncharles
Sex is more IMPORTANT than Poverty?
Posted by: Kym525 on Oct 17, 2006 9:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No wonder so many people think christians are nuts. Instead of dealing with poverty, inequality and discrimination, they'd rather spend their time obsessing over what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms. Our kids are messed up because these folks think teaching 'abstinence-only' will keep them pure - never mind the fact that those supposed 'virgins' have the same rate of STD's as those who aren't.

As a christian, I truly hope the days of these far-right demogogues who have hijacked Jesus' words are truly over.

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» Good, bouyant. Posted by: HeidiLockwood
revolution
Posted by: yesca on Oct 17, 2006 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in re : "Most Evangelicals Are true Christians" ???
Just what is a true Christian, or for that matter, a "true" whatever religion ?
Every religious "true believer" declares that those who don't believe as they do are not "true", ______ fill in the blank.
Evangelicals are religious fundamentalists and hold the notion that all those who does not share and accept their interpretation of the Bible are at best, lost misguided souls that haven't seen the light, sinners that need to be "saved" ; and at worst as evil doers in league with the devil; all are doomed to eternal hell if they don't conform to the Evangelical belief system.
This sanctimonious, holier than thou, self-rightious mentality is what fuels fundamentalists of all religions.
"By their fruits ye shall know them; a bitter tree bears bitter fruit".
This was Jesus's reply when asked by his disciples how in future times they could tell the true from the false of those coming in his name.
To Love does not require religion nor belief.
Peace.

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I might get banned
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Oct 17, 2006 9:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but the problem is that much of the modern 'evangelical' Christians have become more 'Old Testament' and less 'New Testament' based. They have been influenced by the zionists. Look at their almost fanatical support for the artificial state of Israel no matter what it does and their war-like mentality. Also, it must be mentioned that the government very cleverly took the churches out of being too political on social change by allowing them a tax break. Once taken, however, the church can no longer have political discussions from the pulpit, give donations to candidates, etc.

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» rapture & all Posted by: Melvin
Similarities?
Posted by: keefus55 on Oct 17, 2006 9:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Try substituting the words "Islamic Fascist" for "Evangelical Christian" into some of this ongoing discourse. The similarities of intent, if not behavior, might be surprising.

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» RE: Similarities? Posted by: Kym525
Atheists and libertarians.
Posted by: lamar on Oct 17, 2006 9:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the GOP loses its alliance with the God nuts, won't the Democrats lose their anti-neocon alliance with atheists and libertarians?

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» RE: Atheists and libertarians. Posted by: Basenjis
Rule of White Male Theocrats is dying
Posted by: Hartmoore2 on Oct 17, 2006 11:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is so heartening to me, that two of the most powerful women in this country, are swearing in a gay man, with his partner standing on the podium. Truth has a way of living on after the Universe collects the garbage.

I am a Buddhist, raised by Christain fundamentalists: A mother who taught retarded children and is considered a saint in the Christain community, who is cold and totally non-involved in her children's lives and who allowed my fundamentalist father to abuse me for two decades untill I moved from home. I have never heard these kinds of horror stories about Buddhists. We take responsibility for our lives and actions-- Christain Evangelicals conveniently blame it on the devil and go about their business. This dishonesty is being swept away because it is not truth. The Falwells, and other ancient white monoliths of hypocrasy, have lost their grip on the country.

I recommend to readers a book called "American Theocracy" by Kevin Phillips. This books gives you the history of how the Evangelicals got control of our government. Just think about this: Bush had to use the fringe radicals in our society to get control of the country. What does that say about the lack of support for him and his administration throughout the majority of our country? He sold out. We, the vast majority of this country who want peace, compassion, and equality for ALL, need to act now to take back our government and put laws in place so that this never happens again.

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What is true vs what we want to believe
Posted by: nellie blogger on Oct 17, 2006 4:25 PM   
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The problem I have with the way the Religious Right has merged with politics is that the practice of "faith" -- believing even when there is no proof -- starts to apply to the political arena, where people lie with impunity. Personally, I find it ridiciulous that any person, Evangelical or not, would stop thinking and analyzing and evaluating their world because they want to have faith in a political party. It makes no sense. And the fact that we could go through three years of killing, torturing, stealing, and passing some of the worst legislation in American history without the Religious Right questioning what's going on is amazing to me. Instead it takes a sex scandal. I don't think this speaks well for Right-wing Evangelicals at all. There is, after all, a group of Evangelicals who declared years ago that they didn't agree with the way the county was going.

Faith can be a very dangerous thing when people have faith in the wrong idea or the wrong people. I'm very spiritual, but I keep my religion to myself, and I keep my brain working at all times.

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Over?!
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 17, 2006 5:10 PM   
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What planet are you from or have you just never lived around these fundie Evangelical people?

Look, these clowns are gunning fo rtotalitarian control int he name of Jesus and they won't stop until they win or the rest of us are all dead. They need to be stopped, flat out simple. This kind of wussy puff writing is the death of the progressive cause. Only an idiot or someone who doesn't really comprehend these people could ever make such a stupid and unbelievably naiive idea that the Evangelicals are over.

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» RE: Over?! Posted by: Kym525
Evangelicals will Remain Strong: Religion is a Good Business
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 17, 2006 6:05 PM   
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Here in the "South," religion as a business is the pride of the Evangelicals. Be it the gazillion "bible colleges," or the "preachers" in everybody's family, religion down here is making a ton of money and a pretty good livelihood for more then a few. After all, the payments for that Cadillac Escalade SUV (we support America here you know) have to be made. As I said before, Religion as a Business will mean inevitable support for the Conservatives and Republicans. Why? Because maintaining the status quo, the tax exemptions, the gov money for "faith based projects" is what it is all about. As for those "other" parts of the Bible, you know where Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple and helped poor people, we don't have that part in our new Bibles anymore.

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Pat opposed the war but kept silent
Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 18, 2006 6:36 AM   
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What a load of CRAP . How can we know he opposed the war if he kept SILENT for not wanting to offend Bush . Yet his idiotic supporters will buy THAT hook line and sinker .

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Facts on the ground, not assertions based on desires or fears
Posted by: kenhymes on Oct 18, 2006 6:59 AM   
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Facts on the ground in the American Churches as a whole:

1. The trend is left, not right. The political reactionaries are losing the debate inside the church over theology, economic justice, gays, environmental protection, the role of government, women's rights. You will always be able to find far-right pastors and congregations, and they have every right to exist and think differently than you or I. But they are not winning, either in Washington or locally.

2. After several decades of attrition in the "mainline" denominational churches, and rapid growth in the megachurches, young people are increasingly more interested in smaller churches offering opportunities for genuine discipleship and service, and less in the shallow flash of stadium services. Mainline churches are getting more contemporary in the music and the worship, and more involved in justice issues, and the megachurches are either moderating their social conservatism, or losing their ability to attract youthful members. The trends are reversing.

3. Even the hard-core social conservatives are now questioning, and increasingly rejecting, the path of politics, the false dream of theocracy. They can see that they have
been played for suckers. More broadly, there is really no plausible possibility of the US becoming some kind of far-right theocracy. There's too much diversity, too much dissent, too much attachment to popular culture and products, for such a bland fake purity to ever take hold. Everytime the social reactionaries have tried to press their political clout, the voters and the institutions have pulled away from them. You can find token victories for their positions, but we're nowhere near the kind of state marriage with religion which many apparently fear. You're going to need more than loony right-wing conferences and press releases and a few youth camps to convince me that there's any traction for this stuff in the general populace.

A lot of posters here have had bad experiences with the church, and so it's totally understandable that they don't trust people like me who see the church as a mutable institution with as much capacity for progressive, justice thinking and action as any other (and of course as much potential for reaction and hateful thinking as well). And the loudmouth. ambitious people like Falwell and Dobson get all the media play, so why wouldn't people think that's what's going on? But the media is no more accurate on this than on any other topic.

The left ought to be encouraged and hopeful about this, because there's every reason to be. Holding onto grudges and harsh rhetoric is not going to accomplish anything. You've made your criticisms for some years, and the fact is that they are taking hold, the church as a whole is responding. Please don't be distracted from the big picture by the craziness of the Jesus Camp and Focus on the Family and Cure the Gays people. They are very far from representative of what is going on in most churches.

Locally here in Central Virginia a coalition of congregations are working on justice issues such as housing and transportation facing the working poor, as well as doing more "mercy" work such as providing housing for homeless women.
If you would like more specifics on progressive action by churches, and the general trend left, email me at muggles5@juno.com, and I would be happy to point you to a number of examples.

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Sincerity Is No Excuse
Posted by: thirdmg on Oct 18, 2006 8:02 AM   
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According to the article, "Many conservative evangelicals are deeply persuaded that their society has descended into shameless immorality... For them, abortion, gay marriage, and stem cells are signs of such moral decadence. One can accuse them of cherry-picking their issues... But there is no doubting their sincerity."

The question is: Does sincerity excuse them?

The conservative evangelicals of the past who believed in slavery and, later, in segregation were also sincere. And they also used the Bible to defend their racial bias, just as their religious heirs now use the Bible to defend their wide array of repressive anti-sexual and anti-gay biases.

In fact, the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. and the home of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, was formed in 1845 for the explicit purpose of defending slavery. And because the Bible clearly supports slavery and does not include any criticisms of the institution - not even by Jesus - the liberal Christian abolitionists had a difficult uphill battle.

In 1995 the Southern Baptist Convention voted to adopt a resolution renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its past defense of slavery.

Does sincerity excuse the decades of harm the denomination'a racism caused?

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» RE: Sincerity Is No Excuse Posted by: mdruss42
Christianity Gone Astray
Posted by: StuartH on Oct 18, 2006 10:03 AM   
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I went to a Southern Baptist-funded university, and since then have become more and more alienated from the sort of Christianity that is being distorted by the evangelicals.

I am not the only one, either. First and foremost, there is the hubris associated with the idea that human beings must be converted or "saved." This has created a lot of damage in the world and there is a lot to be answered for in history.

Then there are the very strange ideas related to "the end times." This is actually motivating political policy in major areas such as foreign relations and how we deal with the Middle East.

This whole trend has been a mass psychological trend that would be funny if it weren't so real and the consequences so devastating.

I hope enough people wake up to the way that good and decent people are being led by those cynical enough to play on their lack of ability to see how anyone would use them.

This is dangerous.

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Not quite as 'over' as you'd imagine ...
Posted by: darwinyarwin on Oct 19, 2006 4:34 AM   
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I wouldn't be too concerned for those poor hoodwinked evangelicals.
Kuo's book doesn't begin to touch on the form of respect the White
House has actually paid to the Religious Right. As always, 'respect'
for the Bush White House and the GOP is translated as 'money'. Billions of domestic and foriegn aid dollars have been transferred to faith-based aid organizations, who have been the chief recipients of Bush making good on his promises to the evangelicals.

What's more, much of foriegn and domestic policy is now under
supervision of or scrutiny by those who think it's perfectly fine to
erase the line between church and state. Bush promised, then delivered
by transferring the levers of power to faith-based organizations. It'll take
generations to repair the damage done to our overseas interests due
faith-based adulteration of our aid programs.

Did ya know that in Africa and Asia the faith-based medical groups
administer vaccinations and then tell the patients "Jesus Christ is
responsible for healing you!" ?

Start here, and follow the articles where they lead:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/10/08/
bush_brings_faith_to_forei
gn_aid/

I doubt that Rick Warren, James Dobson, Falwell, etc. feel that they
are 'over' due to a few politico in the West Wing chuckling behind
their backs. Those Evangelicals, in return, are laughing out loud ...
all the way to the bank.

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Beware...
Posted by: JohnnyM on Oct 19, 2006 6:04 AM   
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...of the false Gods.

This is a clear warning in the Bible, and that's what SOME evangelical preachers are. Some are genuine, but it is very hard to tell who's who. I'd have to look them in the eyes, because you can tell right away if someone has compassion or is possessed by the demons of lust, power, money, etc. And if you see shark eyes (black and lifeless), the eyes business people get after years of chasing and managing the bucks, you know they're just soul-less hacks. A true God-fearing Chrisitian (or any religion for that matter) would not be involved in politics, period. They may be rich and powerful, but they would not be a slave to the dollar or to power.

And by calling them (false) gods, it is not they who are to blame, it's their followers who are sinning by being stupid and lazy.

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Christain Love Affair With Geo Bush
Posted by: marrieah on Oct 22, 2006 12:49 PM   
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Sometimes I'm amazed about what people hear the preacher says that doen't have anythig to do with what the Bible says.
These people listened to their preachers and Geo Bush.
They should have read their Bibles themselves.
There is a passage in the Bible about wolves in sheep's clothing.
It's too bad they didn't see who the wolf really was. Bush made his intention very clear to those of us who watched him carefully and not listened to his BS.
But I guess as in any love affair, you see only what you want to see and hear only what you want to hear.

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