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What the Amish Are Teaching America

By Sally Kohn, AlterNet. Posted October 10, 2006.


The rest of us can learn a lot from how the Amish community responded to last week's gruesome school shooting in Pennsylvania.

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On Oct. 2, Charles Carl Roberts entered a one-room schoolhouse in the Amish community of Nickel Mines, Penn. He lined up 11 young girls from the class and shot them each at point blank range. The gruesome depths of this crime are hard for any community to grasp, but certainly for the Amish -- who live such a secluded and peaceful life, removed even from the everyday depictions of violence on TV. When the Amish were suddenly pierced by violence, how did they respond?

The evening of the shooting, Amish neighbors from the Nickel Mines community gathered to process their grief with each other and mental health counselors. As of that evening, three little girls were dead. Eight were hospitalized in critical condition. (One more girl has died since.) According to reports by counselors who attended the grief session, the Amish family members grappled with a number of questions: Do we send our kids to school tomorrow? What if they want to sleep in our beds tonight, is that OK? But one question they asked might surprise us outsiders. What, they wondered, can we do to help the family of the shooter? Plans were already underway for a horse-and-buggy caravan to visit Charles Carl Roberts' family with offers of food and condolences. The Amish, it seems, don't automatically translate their grieving into revenge. Rather, they believe in redemption.

Meanwhile, the United States culture from which the Amish are isolated is moving in the other direction -- increasingly exacting revenge for crimes and punishing violence with more violence. In 26 states and at the federal level, there are "three strikes" laws in place. Conviction for three felonies in a row now warrants a life sentence, even for the most minor crimes. For instance, Leandro Andrade is serving a life sentence, his final crime involving the theft of nine children's videos -- including "Cinderella" and "Free Willy" -- from a Kmart. Similarly, in many states and at the federal level, possession of even small amounts of drugs trigger mandatory minimum sentences of extreme duration. In New York, Elaine Bartlett was just released from prison, serving a 20-year sentence for possessing only four ounces of cocaine. This is in addition to the 60 people who were executed in the United States in 2005, among the more than a thousand killed since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976. And the president of the United States is still actively seeking authority to torture and abuse alleged terrorists, whom he consistently dehumanizes as rats to be "smoked from their holes," even without evidence of their guilt.

Our patterns of punishment and revenge are fundamentally at odds with the deeper values of common humanity that the tragic experience of the Amish are helping to reveal. Each of us is more than the worst thing we've ever done in life. Someone who cheats is not only a cheater. Someone who steals something is not only a thief. And someone who commits a murder is not only a murderer. The same is true of Charles Carl Roberts. We don't yet know the details of the episode in his past for which, in his suicide note, he said he was seeking revenge. It may be a sad and sympathetic tale. It may not. Either way, there's no excusing his actions. Whatever happened to Roberts in the past, taking the lives of others is never justified. But nothing Roberts has done changes the fact that he was a human being, like all of us. We all make mistakes. Roberts' were considerably and egregiously larger than most. But the Amish in Nickel Mines seem to have been able to see past Roberts' actions and recognize his humanity, sympathize with his family for their loss, and move forward with compassion, not vengeful hate.

We've come to think that "an eye for an eye" is a natural, human reaction to violence. The Amish, who live a truly natural life apart from the influences of our violence-infused culture, are proving otherwise. If, as Gandhi said, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind," then the Amish are providing the rest of us with an eye-opening lesson.

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Sally Kohn is the director of the Movement Vision Project of the Center for Community Change, which is interviewing hundreds of activists across the country to determine the progressive vision for the future of the United States.

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Amish show that LOVE is the way
Posted by: LeftWright on Oct 10, 2006 12:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I first heard this story I almost had to pull over as tears of joy and sadness welled up in my eyes.

Just imagine if, after 9/11, the American people had paused to reflect on what happened*, and then sought to forgive those who committed these heinous crimes. Instead, the U.S. marches off to Afghanistan and then to Iraq to murder tens of thousands who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

*Upon reflection, and a little critical analysis, the American people realize that 9/11 was perpetrated by elements within the U.S. elites (including the White House) and demand impeachment. Still, we should be able to forgive the pathological murderers who tried to pull this off, and commit them to the proper institutions they need and deserve.

But wait ! They're still in power, stealing elections (ready for another one, America?), murdering at will and now building "detention facilities".........

Wake up, brothers and sisters, WAKE UP !

I can honestly say that I love everyone on the planet. Even those who may want to kill me. For me, to love a person is to want the best for them, as this would be best for me.

Love is the only way forward.

The truth shall set us free.

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» RE: Amish show that LOVE is the way Posted by: sadforAmerica
» RE: EXCELLENT POST! Posted by: Tom Degan
» Forgive Psychopaths???? NEVER Posted by: psychochurch
sad
Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 10, 2006 2:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is really sad that the USA has been hijacked by the great God Vengeance who says kill them or give them super-long jail sentences and/or torture them mercilessly. The practical result of this narrowminded attitude is that the USA as a society is becoming more and more degenerate as time passes. And no one is more degenerate than the mass-murdering Bushies.

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» you stupid sick, misguided bastard Posted by: psychochurch
God Blessed The Amish People
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 10, 2006 2:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How refreshing! Isn't it a surprise to see Christians behaving so Christ-like for a change? Indeed, we all could learn a thing or two from the Amish. In particular, the so-called "religious right" could learn volumes from the Amish. Isn't it amazing? George W. Bush, the man who is described by so many foolish people (with straight faces, no less) as "our most Chrisian president" is, in reality, the least Christ-like chief executive we've ever had.

Consider these words spoken by Jesus Christ at the Sermon on the Mount:

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven

Blessed are those who mourn,
for they shall be comforted

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth

Blessed are those who hunger for righteousness,
for they shall be filled

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven....

*************

Just curious: Were you able to detect just a teeny weeny, itsy bitsy contradiction be the words of Jesus if Nazereth and the very nasty public face of the modern day republican party? Ahh! I thought as much!

God bless the good Amish people

Pray for peace.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» To HeroesAll: Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: To HeroesAll: Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: To HeroesAll: Posted by: Tom Degan
» Calling traditional lefty atheists & agnostics! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» On Second Thought... Posted by: aonghus36
At last some common sense from those who aren't in power
Posted by: Linda50 on Oct 10, 2006 3:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My heart felt sympathies to the Amish for losing their children. It is a tragedy indeed. But being a firm believer that things happen for a reason, the Amish is the blueprint for all of us to learn from. You may not be religious but just an every day person just trying to get by another day or just trying to figure out your next meal, the Amish shows that compassion is the forefront for all us to learn from. They are exemplarary in practicing what they believe and know in their hearts. They use common sense in everything that they do. We NEED to take lessons from these families that have lossed their precious children and still can be compassionate and show the milk of human kindness to another human being.

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Moving
Posted by: marxalot on Oct 10, 2006 3:50 AM   
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It is moving to see people actually taking Christ's message of love and compassion to heart and practice.

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JUST 4 ounces of cocaine!?
Posted by: mazel on Oct 10, 2006 3:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry, but 4 ounces of coke is a whole lotta blow. I'm sure the author could have found a better example to help make his point than this one. I realize it actually has little to do with the article itself, but that statement really jumped out at me. 20 years for 4 grams would appall me. 20 years for 4 ounces doesn't surprise me one bit, especially if she had a weapon in her possession when she was arrested (which is very likely).

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» 20 years -- JUST? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: 20 years -- JUST? Posted by: Herestratus
» RE: 20 years -- JUST? Posted by: Virg
» Non-violent v. violent crime Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Non-violent v. violent crime Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: Non-violent v. violent crime Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: 20 years -- JUST? Posted by: mazel
» RE: 20 years -- JUST? Posted by: hagwind
» RE: 20 years -- JUST? Posted by: mazel
The Terrorist Within
Posted by: Abushite on Oct 10, 2006 5:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this atrocity can happen to the children of an Amish community
there cannot a safe place for our children. The real terrorist is within America is nurtured by guns for everyone , violence preached by our leaders, lies and more lies. Bush and his evil men have made America the least place country in all the true democracies of today.

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Thanks for posting this
Posted by: hagwind on Oct 10, 2006 5:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A friend e-mailed me Sally Kohn's article (off the Common Dreams website) this weekend. In the wake of all those stories about how short-sighted and sleazy my fellow countryfolk can be -- well, it was a poignant and much-needed reminder of what we humans are capable of. The Amish in their way are fundamentalists: they try to understand and be guided by their faith in their own lives, not by forcing their beliefs and ways on others. And by setting themselves apart from all the political and mass-media pot-banging, they've managed to remain focused on the essentials.

I don't intend to become a Christian, and though I live pretty simply, I could not live like the Amish. But I'm inspired by their example. It really is possible, even in the face of the inexplicable and the horrific, to acknowledge our common humanity and to act accordingly.

Ms. Kohn wrote: "Each of us is more than the worst thing we've ever done in life." Wise, wise words. Thanks again.

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Chris in Raleigh
Posted by: Chris in Raleigh on Oct 10, 2006 5:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love Alternet, but I think Sally Kohn has no understanding of the Amish. They didn't forgive the guy who killed their children because they "recognize his humanity" or because they "live a truly natural life." In fact, they live a totally "unnatural" life by the world's standards. They forgave him because they understand themselves as a forgiven people that for hundreds of years has been forged into a community of nonviolence and simplicity under a crucified Lord. It is literally their HABIT to forgive. I don't think any of those folks reacted by thinking: "Hmmmm, wonder if I should forgive this guy?" or "My heart is so broken that I am incapable of forgiving." Their reaction was first and foremost not in the first person singular (I, my) but first person plural (we, our). And it wasn't whether to forgive, but how to forgive that was the question for them. The power of their community of faith and the holy habits created by it allow the Amish to live BEYOND a "truly natural life" (defend against my enemies, preserve myself) to an unnatural, holy life (love enemies, deny myself), and to look beyond a killer's humanity or "personhood" and see Christ in him.

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» RE: HABIT? Posted by: AlienSlave
Lesson of Amish Grows
Posted by: vkobaya on Oct 10, 2006 6:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Point is, that God bless the Amish, their message is succeeding. The Methodist church in that community buried the killer, Charles Carl Roberts, in their cemetary praying for forgiveness. Not something that would occur in the rest of the world, where he would have been refused a Christian burial.

I disagree with the previous writer who seems to imply that it is only possible for the Amish to be so forgiving by sacrificing their own humanity to the demands of their religion. If that is true then it contradicts the lesson that the Methodists in the same community seem to have learned from the Amish.

I'm still struggling with this lesson myself, still bitterly angry with Bush, hating him and wanting to see him come down in the most painful way possible. But as the Amish lesson tries to teach me, that was not the message that Christ taught. It is a very difficult lesson but one that is very very well worthwhile.

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» RE: Lesson of Amish Grows Posted by: DaBear
The Peace Investment
Posted by: zoza on Oct 10, 2006 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few years back, I listened as John Kerry... long before the presidential primaries, said on NPR, that "America has invested mightily in war, yet meagerly in peace". Of course I never heard those great words again when he was running for president.

What, I wonder, would be the outcome if after 9/11 (or a long time before) we had seen fit to giving the trillions of dollars we had invested in blowing the bejesus out of our imaginary enemies, to helping the starving and helpless peoples of the world? No one would ever consider blowing up our buildings or embassies. The world would truly look to America as the shining light. After 9/11, we truly had a wonderful opportunity to take the high ground, with a dignified response that the rest of the world was eager to follow. We did not take that high ground. We went the way of the fool, not the way of redemption.

The Amish people are shining examples of the recognition of what true Christianity is... "by their fruits shall they be known". Also, that a life lived simply has much more clarity and a deeper sense of purpose.

I long for simpler days and I long for politicians who can make statements such as the one atributed to John Kerry.... and mean it.

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» RE: The Peace Investment Posted by: theodyke
» RE: The Peace Investment Posted by: Nihilistic
One explanation
Posted by: theodyke on Oct 10, 2006 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In one of her books, Marianne Williamson makes the point that until we get the guns out of our heads we cannot get the guns out of our world. The Amish can forgive because they have no guns in their heads. They have ceased the internal war inside, so when war comes to them from the outside in this horrible form, they can react without a warlike attitude - they react only with what they know - forgiveness, love and compassion.

Oh, that we should all be working to rid our heads of our guns.

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» RE: One explanation Posted by: harris
Faith vs Lip Service
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 10, 2006 6:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Amish & Mennonites are prime examples of Christians who actually follow the teachings of Christ rather than just use it for cover.

43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’[r] and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies![s] Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends,[t] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5 NLT

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» RE: Faith vs Lip Service Posted by: albrechtkrausse
A WORLD WITH NO EMOTION-BE CAREFUL
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 10, 2006 7:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, mop up the blood, bury the little bodies forgive the murderer and move on. A world without tears is also a world without laughter. Children's faces all with empty stares. I wonder if these children know it's wrong to murder. Instant forgiveness doesn't make any point. And yet corporal punishment is a part of their lives. Sounds confusing.There are reasons why they demand complete privacy. The big picture is not a pretty one. Thanks, ANNA

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Are you crazy?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Oct 10, 2006 7:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SO.....shunning those family members who break the rules, enforcing ridge roles for women, refusing to send your children to public school, disallowing all modernity, and refusing to partcipate in social security is a good thing according to Alternet? Wow, sounds almost like some Republican 'contract for America'. Keep women in the home, make your girls dress modestly, have no government schools, and no government social programs.

I won't even mention the alledge accounts of arranged marriages, incest, and physical abuse that occur in some (not Amish necessarily) Mennonite communities.

Are you crazy? Do you even UNDERSTAND the fundamentals of Old Order Amish, or other Mennonite religion? Do you know why they separate from the "english"? How does Alternet feel about the "complete depravity" of man doctrine? Or that the "elect" have been pre-selected by God? Are you crazy?

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» RE: Are you crazy? Posted by: A. James
» RE: Are you crazy? Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Amish as Fundamentalists
Posted by: rileycase on Oct 10, 2006 7:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It needs to be pointed out to those who so easily bash Christian fundamentalists that the Amish would also fall under the category of "Christian fundamentalists." I read all these remarks about religious fundamentalism being at the root of the world's problems. I beg to differ. There is a problem when Christian fundamentalism gets caught up in power and politics. Most Christian fundamentalism, however, is apolitical, and much of it, like the Amish version, represents the qualities that have made for peace and virtue.

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» RE: Amish as Fundamentalists Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» Do unto others Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Do unto others Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Do unto others Posted by: YogiBear
This example of the Amish ethic reflects true Christianity
Posted by: c.gardiner on Oct 10, 2006 8:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It reminds me of a line from Dostoevsky which, in spirit and instruction, sounds as if it could have come from The Sermon on the Mount:

"If the evil-doing of men moves you to indignation and overwhelming distress, even to a desire for vengeance on the evil-doers, shun above all things that feeling. Go at once and seek suffering for yourself, as though you were yourself guilty of that wrong. Accept that suffering and bear it and your heart will find comfort, and you will understand that you too are guilty, for you might have been a light to the evil-doers, even as the one man sinless, and you were not a light to them. If you had been a light, you would have lightened the path for others too, and the evil-doer might perhaps have been saved by your light from his sin."
The Brothers Karamazov

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NICE STORY BUT BEWARE OF LOPSIDED MORALS
Posted by: thomasbraun321 on Oct 10, 2006 9:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When people condem people who exercise their right to self defense they are behaving inmorally. When a party attacks with criminal intent another party and the attacked party defends itself with lethal methods because otherwise the attacker will kill the attacked, some people condemm the attacked. It is inmoral. Would those people prefer the attacked gives his other cheek to the attacker?

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Whoa, slow down that buggy!
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 10, 2006 9:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, like any other fundies, the Amish are no saints. Just ask the Mennonites or other "outcasts" or survivors of their sect--or survivors of any Xtian fundie sect for that matter. Their tales would care the crap outta the most compassionate of us all. Some survivors even dared to post comments here --thanks for the very much needed perspective.

We progressives have a reckless tendency to gush and kvell just too damned much when we see somebody finally appear to do something we wish we could all do. Yes, the lesson this specific response by that community towards the killer's family has raised into American Kult-ural discourse is a very very good thing. But don't Lionise an otherwise emotionally harmful fundamentalist sect because they do something right (or something we agree with or admire). This whole urge to broadbrush and black/white-ize everything just sucks and is soooo 'Mer'kaan. It's a bad habit we ought to drop right quick.

Lesson: good to habitualize forgiveness (debateable but instructive nonetheless) rather than seek revenge when harmed by another. Other than this, leave it alone or research it and speak all of it out loud so there's a context.

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» RE: Whoa, slow down that buggy! Posted by: dangerouslysane
Peace
Posted by: airayn on Oct 10, 2006 10:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Amish are right.

If we want peace, then we must embrace the world with peace. Even to those who hurt us. It's the only road for a final peace.

Peace and freedom arise from our actions. Act and reach out in peace.

Casey

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Mawkish nonsense
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on Oct 10, 2006 10:40 AM   
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How nice that the Amish can live "in peace," oppressing no one but themselves, on land appropriated for them from the Indians by their benefactor Penn, and be protected for centuries by someone else's military. But what does all this have to do with "three strikes" laws and cocaine convictions? (Yes, as someone writes above, 4 oz. is quite a lot - obviously the author is about as familiar with cocaine as the Amish are!)

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» AMEN BROTHER Posted by: psychochurch
Brokenhearted
Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Oct 10, 2006 11:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My heart still grieves for the girls who were killed by that creep Roberts. He makes us men look like cowards if he can't face his demons with any kind of conviction: He had to use a gun and kill children. It was like a mini-Columbine or that horror in Russia two or three years ago.
But the Amish are showing us a different side of life in this violent country. Anyone who has traveled through SSE Pennsylvania can marvel of how nice and clean things are. No graffiti, gang problems, urban blight, juvenile deliquency, NO GUNS! Got it? No GUNS! But in a state like Pennsylvania, past (the Amish) and present (school violence) do not make good neighbors. And how many people were killed in Los Angeles last week by guns?
It's the state of our country. Many of us won't respond to the tragedy in Nickel Mines the way the Amish did by offering compassion for Roberts' family. The Amish are smarter than we think. They want no part of the daily violence we live with. And we're supposed to be a religious nation. Yeah, right. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

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We live in the midst of 2 Christianities in the USA
Posted by: wawa on Oct 10, 2006 12:51 PM   
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"There are two Christianities in our midst. One worships a punitive father and seeks obedience at all costs. It is patriarchal, demonizes woman, the earth, science, gays, lesbians, and deep thought.

It builds on fear and it supports empire-builders. Its theology includes a punitive father in the sky and teaches original sin. The other Christianity recognizes the original blessing that all beings derive from.

We recognize awe, not sin, not guilt, as the starting point of true religion. We recognize a divinity who is source of all things and is as much mother as father, as much female as male. We honor creation and diversity.

When God created everything, He pronounced it all good. We are here to make love to life. Yes, we are here to make love to life.

Delight in creation and take your dreams into our politics and institutions. We live in the midst of a suicidal economy, motivated by love of money. We have reached a dead end.

What we need to turn it around are hearts in love with life. How do we do it? We first must move from domination to partnership, and we begin by educating our young in awe and wonder, not how to take tests. Awe leads to reverence, which leads to gratitude, which will reinvent our species. This is the task of our generation: to regain awe.

The three Rs need to be balanced by the ten Cs: contemplation, creativity, chaos, compassion, courage, critical consciousness, community, celebration, ceremony, and character.

In community, people remain united, despite everything that divides them. In capitalist society, people are isolated, separated, despite everything that should hold them together. We are in the midst of an epic struggle between community and capitalistic society. We need a new narrative. It is the economy of materialism; it is the virus of affluenza that has weakened family life." -Father Matthew Fox, July 2005 @ TIKKUN's First Conference for Spiritual Progressives


Fox is the author of a New 95 that he 'nailed' to the same door in Wittenburg on Pentecost Sunday 2005-the very same door that Martin Luther nailed his 95 to, 500 years before:
"A New Reformation" www.WisdomUniversity.org


"We have it in our power to begin the world over again." - Thomas Paine


e
WAWA blog

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» RE: Girls in Amish-like dress Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Girls in Amish-like dress Posted by: deaudonnee
We could learn more as well....
Posted by: WitchyNy on Oct 10, 2006 4:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have always admired the Amish. Horses not cars, a life lived close to the earth, homegrown food, building their own homes and barns, a cooporative and non-violent way of life.

I believe- all these things are connected.

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Some Christians simply trying to become saints
Posted by: larry278 on Oct 10, 2006 4:50 PM   
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The previous comments aren't a complete catalog of what others see as the failings of the Amish or the larger "English" American society which embraces modern ways. While these criticisms establish that the human race is afflicted toward an ingrained propensity to evil & hasn't acheived perfection yet, there is little, if any, recognition that the Amish & others make it a habit to seek to become more perfect.

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Jesus non violent.....really????????
Posted by: Lillith on Oct 10, 2006 6:05 PM   
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"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."--Luke 19:27
How come christians conveniently forget this passage.

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» RE: Jesus non violent.....really???????? Posted by: dangerouslysane
Rose
Posted by: bmrose on Oct 10, 2006 7:27 PM   
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This verse in Luke is misunderstood because it is taken out of context. This is a parable given by Jesus explaining that He will soon leave, but will return as the righteous judge of all. The message is that you are not God's enemy when you fail. He loves you. He is there to encourage you to try again as he did Peter (John 21:15-17). But you are God's enemy when you set your will against his and refuse to use productively what he has given you. That is a dangerous place in which to stand - as an enemy of God. Ultimately, this parable is not about the present, but the future. If you sense in rebelliousness against God, there's still time to repent and change your heart -- but you can only count on "today" in which to do that.

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» RE: ose Posted by: bmrose
» RE: ose Posted by: Lillith
» RE: ose Posted by: Lillith
Wait a second
Posted by: Soco on Oct 11, 2006 8:36 AM   
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I am saddened by the loss experienced by the Amish from a deranged man. The good thing is this community reached out to the family of the man who murdered members of it's community. These people experienced loss also.

This article appears to have made the mistake of glorifying the Amish akin to the early American sentiment of the Native Americans being "Noble Savages." Well, Native Americans could be barbaric also.

This article supports this ideal of an idyllic fundamentalist Christian community as a good thing.
The Amish, who live a truly natural life apart from the influences of our violence-infused culture, are proving otherwise.

Fact is, it's a theocratic community based on just 3 verses of the bible.

1. "Be not yoked with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (II Corinthians 6:14)
2. "Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord." (II Corinthians 6:17)
3. “And be ye not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2)"

Well, this is absurd because the Amish suffer from a harsh and rigid life often accompanied with physical child abuse (beatings), rape, and incest. It's extremly difficult for these victims to get the help you're accustomed to. In short, ills common to our society have representation in theirs. They often hide behind religious freedom to defend themselves rather than attempt to correct these issues internally. Yes, people do leave these communities. Read the story of David E. Yoder.

Could you live in a community who viewed buttons as prideful? Wearing two suspenders rather than one being uncouth? Too many pleats in a bonnet sinful? That preventable genetic disorders from intermarriage as being the will of god?

Sorry, the lesson here simple forgivness, which any religion includes in it's ethics.

I'd choose the Native American way over the Amish any day. They lived simply but not by a rigid religious doctrine that hindered the people or it's society.

I am not criticizing the Amish but looking at this realistically. I can respect their freedom of religion but it doesn't mean I want to live this way. You can have a TV and watch it rarely. You don't need 2 SUV's, you aren't required to eat at Mickey D's 3 nights a week. You do have choice, this is something they do not have. Would you want this enforced on you or have the choice to not use technology. It's simply an act of restraint and moderation, something we as Americans cannot do with the choice we have.

They have the right to be Amish and if we followed the Constitution (in a secular society) which offers the freedom of religion and the "seperation of church and state" we should work at it's preservation so we can all benefit from it.

If the Amish are so idyllic why don't Falwell and Robertson practice it? Would you wish to live in a society with these guys telling you what to believe? The Amish aren't cartoon characters. They will not enforce their views on you, that's the good thing but evangelicals will if they have the choice. The same Falwell who accepts money from Reverend Moon (Who thinks he is the new messiah) and Robertson, who's "Operation Blessing" seems more interested in diamonds than blessing anyone other than himself.

I'm with "albrechtkrausse" I'm not buying it. Live with the Amish for one year and then tell me about your experience, I'm sure it'll change your opinion. BTW, the Amish do own guns.

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» RE: Wait a second Posted by: aonghus36
I find it kinda sad
Posted by: penguins8me on Oct 11, 2006 6:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever your interpretation of the bible is, this article is what that book preaches. Its awesome that one book can hold so much power to inspire some people(like these amish) and at the same time be used as a tool to manipulate the bible belt into re-elect dubya and his deciving minions. I mean how powerful do you have to be to shoot somebody in the face and THEY appolize to YOU. I wish the leaders of this country would actually take a lesson from that book.

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School Shooting Safeguards. Arm Educators? ©
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Oct 11, 2006 8:25 PM   
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Dear Sally Kohn . . .

I thank you for this treatise!

I too see the variance between Amish teachings and the culture of conventional wisdom in American.

After hearing the starling solutions proposed by our President and others in power, I also took pen to paper. I wrote a missive asking Americans to assess what works well in our world and what creates a killer.

I inquired; will machines or mandates truly eliminate school violence. Might we reduce brutality in our society and how can we do this?

I think whether we are Conservative or Progressive, we must be compassionate. We as a nation need to evaluate the lack of empathy we exhibit. I propose we do this before an individual is so consumed with contempt that he or she acts out.

I invite you to read, School Shooting Safeguards. Arm Educators? © at BeThink.org or School Shooting Safeguards. Arm Educators? © at Be-Think.

Please share your thoughts. I welcome learning from you.

It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Jethro Tull . . . Betsy
Betsy L. Angert BeThink.org or Be-Think

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When the police no longer need guns...
Posted by: LtL on Oct 11, 2006 9:58 PM   
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...I will give up mine.

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Meanwhile, in Utah
Posted by: Urstrly on Oct 20, 2006 6:00 AM   
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While visiting Utah last week during a state teachers' meeting I was stunned to find that some group was advocating that all teachers be armed to fight off such attempts. The Salt Lake City newscast I watched did a major story, which lent credibility to the issue. A number of teachers interviewed opposed guns in the schools, but the two young female newscasters quoted from two pro-gun emails and only one against. Made me realize that most Easterners have no clue about the size and clout of the gun lobby.

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